Not true at South Lakes, which had a vibrant AP program.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:...
>
> >... Perhaps you could rephrase your question as:
> "Why
> > did FPCS install IB and remove AP from schools
> > with high percentages of disadvantaged
> students?"
>
> I believe Mrs. Strauss answered the question on
> why certain schools got IB recently. To
> paraphrase: Once a decision was made to go with IB
> there was limited implementation time. That was
> best used at schools not having staff trained in
> and largely implementing AP. The explanation
> tracks somewhat with the staff training -school
> invigoration reasons given in J Matthews book
> Supertest.

I have heard many supporters of this RD cite "equal access to resources" as grounds for this study. I am curious as to why our SB is not offering the same curriculum in "all" of our public schools. Does it not seem unusual to you that in such a large school distric, where we all pay for the schools, that our SB has chosen to implement a very unique ( unique as in the fact that less than 2% of the High Schools in the US are IB) in 33% of our schools? Why should only some schools have access to the IB curriculum, while others only have access to AP curriculum?

This seems to say to me that the SB supports and agrees with the stance that not all schools should not be the same in size, and that the programs and resources and or curriculum should be different from one school to another.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not true at South Lakes, which had a vibrant AP
> program.
>
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:...
> >
> > >... Perhaps you could rephrase your question
> as:
> > "Why
> > > did FPCS install IB and remove AP from
> schools
> > > with high percentages of disadvantaged
> > students?"
> >
> > I believe Mrs. Strauss answered the question on
> > why certain schools got IB recently. To
> > paraphrase: Once a decision was made to go with
> IB
> > there was limited implementation time. That was
> > best used at schools not having staff trained
> in
> > and largely implementing AP. The explanation
> > tracks somewhat with the staff training -school
> > invigoration reasons given in J Matthews book
> > Supertest.


So it was a personal preference on the part of whom? IB is more costly than AP and I guess Stu Gibson [never one to not get an extra program or resource if someone else has it] was sold.

Floris parent, I have some questions. I know you don't want an IB school, and I understand your frustration with being pawns in several boundary studies, but, after listening to the many parents speaking in support of South Lakes, is your perception of South Lakes improved? Would you want your children in class with the students who spoke these last two nights? Would they be in good company? Would you as a parent be in good company with the parents you heard? I promise you, as a parent of two graduates now attending UVa, your children would receive a fine education at South Lakes. They would also love their school.

Whatever happens, your children will be great. I am sure of it because you are obviously a caring parent.

After watching Stu Gibson's clear disdain for the Floris and Fox Mill communities (he is our SB Rep as well), I am completely disgusted. To watch him falling all over the SL supporters, and chatting them up as though they are family, while showing no effort to engage his "other" constituents, he showed what a true, two faced lying coward he really is.


FYI Gibson is a snake and he must not be trusted. He is a traitor to his constituents and is a very small man when it comes to values.

He needs to be removed.

> At to the McNair issue, why do you not excoriate
> Herndon for the same thing. They also have
> rejected the idea of adding more Title I students
> to their school.

Actually, Herndon HS already accepts a significant portion of McNair students. They're the ones who live north of the Toll Road. So technically, Herndon HS has two Title I schools feeding it.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > At to the McNair issue, why do you not
> excoriate
> > Herndon for the same thing. They also have
> > rejected the idea of adding more Title I
> students
> > to their school.
>
> Actually, Herndon HS already accepts a significant
> portion of McNair students. They're the ones who
> live north of the Toll Road. So technically,
> Herndon HS has two Title I schools feeding it.


McNair has a weird boundary. What are the demographic splits for the different area of McNair? How about the same for Floris?

Padre - waiting patiently for your apology

LVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris parent, I have some questions. I know you
> don't want an IB school, and I understand your
> frustration with being pawns in several boundary
> studies, but, after listening to the many parents
> speaking in support of South Lakes, is your
> perception of South Lakes improved? Would you
> want your children in class with the students who
> spoke these last two nights? Would they be in
> good company? Would you as a parent be in good
> company with the parents you heard? I promise
> you, as a parent of two graduates now attending
> UVa, your children would receive a fine education
> at South Lakes. They would also love their school.
>
>
> Whatever happens, your children will be great. I
> am sure of it because you are obviously a caring
> parent.

ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW..................

Subject: IB diploma recipient & former AP student -- what is the real difference

Dear FCPS board,

You've heard a lot about IB and AP, and I'd like to dispell some myths and give you honest, unbiased feedback about both programs.

I am a proud recipient of the IB diploma. I am also a former AP student. Yes, I am a nerd! At Winter Park High School (Orange County, FL), we were allowed to be double enrolled and could sit for both exams. But, I have the experience of both programs and feel like I'm your perfect subject matter expert on the topic.

Here are the truths as I know them:

1. Quality of Education of the Program. Both programs are exceptional and rigorous. But even more rigorous is to be classified in both simultaneously and have to meet the cirriculum demands while participating on swim team, marching band, jazz band, orchestra, all the honor societies, math team, state piano competitions, Key club, IB club, and even more activities too countless to name. One myth was that you can't participate in extracurricular activities. Not true. You can do it all, but you might not sleep and you probably will be doing homework on date night or in the car while driving to school (yes, me and my friends stupidly did that)...

2. Course Content/Presentation. There are some minor differences in how IB and AP courses are presented. An IB course is global. In geometry class, the teacher might present Euclidian geometry. A history class later in the day would carry the theme and explore how geometry changed history, which would them be followed in English literature with a book that was influenced by mathematicians. While the IB course strives to develop a students understanding of how everything is inter-related, the AP does deep dives on particular topics. Simply, IB = breath of knowledge, while AP = depth.

3. Commitment. IB is set-up to be a comprehensive four year program, but you don't need to be enrolled in a middle school IB program. It certainly helps for language and some of the more difficult higher level IB subject exams, but it isn't necessary. I have a diploma and I didn't have a middle school program. I was actually, the first 4-year IB class at WPHS, and we boasted a 98% pass rate!

The nice thing about AP is that the commitment is extremely, more flexible. One class = one exam. You don't need 4 years of knowledge to build upon.

4. Exams. AP Exams are shorter in length and are short answer or short essay, compared to the IB exam which is a four hour exam in which you answer only a few questions in a long essay (~10-20 pages/each). Me and the 59 other IB students in my cohort affectionately called the IB exams "IB HELL WEEK." We even made t-shirts with the IB symbol, and the backs had the top 10 reasons why IB is HELL. (Administrators didn't like our shirts, many of which stunk because we'd stay up all night studying in them and then go take our exams. But, they appreciated our unity and understood that we needed a chance to act out.)

5. College Entrance & Credit. The real difference comes when you apply to college. Most colleges offer college credit for IB or AP programs. However, while IB is a global program, AP is more widely accepted by US colleges. How colleges perceive and allocate credits are very different.

In the spring of my senior year, recruiters across the nation were calling me. The shy nerdy girl in me was flattered, only to be extremely disappointed when the recruiters asked about my AP coursework and didn't want to talk a lick about IB. How could this be, especially since IB was sold to me and my cohort as the "creme de la creme" in education?

So, do I have any regrets about IB or AP? My only regret is that I didn't sit for more AP exams. At the end of my high school career, I was physically and emotionally exhausted and chose to sit for all my 6 IB exams (3HL; 3 SL), but only one AP exam. While I received a college scholarship and credit, I realized that my peers who sat for more AP exams over IB exams were able to reap more credits and money since colleges offered more for AP.

Since FCPS doesn't allow dual enrollment, what would I want for my children? With all that I know and have experienced, I would prefer that my children chose AP. However, the choice should remain with them and not forced upon them. (Just like a redistrict should not be forced upon the students, the parents or the community. We chose our neighborhoods and our schools!)

I would like to propose to the board that you create a magnet school out of South Lakes, offering only the most exceptional classes -- IB, AP, fine arts (sounds like the music program is already trying to achieve this). WPHS in Orange County was accused by other area high schools of creating a magnet IB program that attracted the best and brightest away from their school (yes, all 60 of us, most of whom were already districted for WPHS caused a county-wide rucous and subsequent change).

In response to other schools cries for additional monies, students and programs, Orange County Public Schools created special magnet programs at every school, so that each school had something to boast about and attract the "creme de la creme." What happened? Each school had a special attraction, and students had choices and flexibility.

But the bottom-line - the choice was the student's.

Please consider using tax payer money to create programs that attract, rather than pull communities apart.

taxpayer Wrote:
> I believe Mrs. Strauss answered the question on
> why certain schools got IB recently. To
> paraphrase: Once a decision was made to go with IB
> there was limited implementation time. That was
> best used at schools not having staff trained in
> and largely implementing AP. ...

Not quite true.

The first FCPS schools to get IB were "disadvantaged." In FY 94 - Stuart and Mt Vernon; in FY 98 - Marshall; FY 99 - Edison.

Robinson, which has more "advantaged" and every other kind of student because it is so huge, also got IB in FY 99, but it still can only support six AP courses, NONE of them in science. Lee, with 1,875 students, about the size South Lakes wants to be, last year offered only ONE AP course, AP Statistics. Why does anyone at South Lakes think they will be able to support more?

FY 2000 was the year South Lakes and Woodson got IB. At Woodson the AP classes were NOT phased out - they were summarily swept away. SEVEN juniors signed up for IB math, not enough to support a class, and over the summer of 1999 the SEVENTY-SEVEN juniors who signed up for the pre-AP Calculus and Trig were rescheduled into IB math instead. This move might be called the spark that set off the Woodson battle.

Jeff Yost, who came to Woodson to teach IB math, was on the committee that looked at both programs. You might talk to him about the difficulty of trying to teach both IB and AP in an FCPS school. He stuck with Woodson, even though IB was ejected, became n Woodson Asst. Principal, and since December has been the Woodson principal.

Back to history: the FY 2001 budget included money to support Annandale and Lee's applications to become IB schools, a two-year process. By that time, the results of the Woodson Committee had been promulgated and NO OTHER FCPS school since has asked for IB. None have added IB "recently," not even Westfield or South County, new schools with NO AP courses.

SLV,
Before spreading incorrect information, please list your data source and rationale. What makes you think if you said again and again "CAPS incorrect" and claim SB knows what they said is incorrect? Are you implying SB listens to specific groups and believe them without a blink?

If in fact, some of it is incorrect, why are you not pointing it out, which at least will stop the spread? Instead, you chose to broadcast, it's not right, not right, not right. All I have is right, all they said is wrong.

" I did, however, read and hear some very incorrect information about IB used by Fairfax CAPS. Unfortunately for CAPS, the SB knows that what they said is incorrect. "

Wow, arealstudent, excellent post. Thanks so much for that.

arealstudent Wrote:

>
> ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW..................
>
> Subject: IB diploma recipient & former AP student
> -- what is the real difference
>
> Dear FCPS board,
>
> You've heard a lot about IB and AP, and I'd like
> to dispell some myths and give you honest,
> unbiased feedback about both programs.
>
> I am a proud recipient of the IB diploma. I am
> also a former AP student. Yes, I am a nerd! At
> Winter Park High School (Orange County, FL), we
> were allowed to be double enrolled and could sit
> for both exams. But, I have the experience of both
> programs and feel like I'm your perfect subject
> matter expert on the topic.
>
> Here are the truths as I know them:
>
> 1. Quality of Education of the Program. Both
> programs are exceptional and rigorous. But even
> more rigorous is to be classified in both
> simultaneously and have to meet the cirriculum
> demands while participating on swim team, marching
> band, jazz band, orchestra, all the honor
> societies, math team, state piano competitions,
> Key club, IB club, and even more activities too
> countless to name. One myth was that you can't
> participate in extracurricular activities. Not
> true. You can do it all, but you might not sleep
> and you probably will be doing homework on date
> night or in the car while driving to school (yes,
> me and my friends stupidly did that)...
>
> 2. Course Content/Presentation. There are some
> minor differences in how IB and AP courses are
> presented. An IB course is global. In geometry
> class, the teacher might present Euclidian
> geometry. A history class later in the day would
> carry the theme and explore how geometry changed
> history, which would them be followed in English
> literature with a book that was influenced by
> mathematicians. While the IB course strives to
> develop a students understanding of how everything
> is inter-related, the AP does deep dives on
> particular topics. Simply, IB = breath of
> knowledge, while AP = depth.
>
> 3. Commitment. IB is set-up to be a
> comprehensive four year program, but you don't
> need to be enrolled in a middle school IB program.
> It certainly helps for language and some of the
> more difficult higher level IB subject exams, but
> it isn't necessary. I have a diploma and I didn't
> have a middle school program. I was actually, the
> first 4-year IB class at WPHS, and we boasted a
> 98% pass rate!
>
> The nice thing about AP is that the commitment is
> extremely, more flexible. One class = one exam.
> You don't need 4 years of knowledge to build upon.
>
>
> 4. Exams. AP Exams are shorter in length and are
> short answer or short essay, compared to the IB
> exam which is a four hour exam in which you answer
> only a few questions in a long essay (~10-20
> pages/each). Me and the 59 other IB students in
> my cohort affectionately called the IB exams "IB
> HELL WEEK." We even made t-shirts with the IB
> symbol, and the backs had the top 10 reasons why
> IB is HELL. (Administrators didn't like our
> shirts, many of which stunk because we'd stay up
> all night studying in them and then go take our
> exams. But, they appreciated our unity and
> understood that we needed a chance to act out.)
>
> 5. College Entrance & Credit. The real
> difference comes when you apply to college. Most
> colleges offer college credit for IB or AP
> programs. However, while IB is a global program,
> AP is more widely accepted by US colleges. How
> colleges perceive and allocate credits are very
> different.
>
> In the spring of my senior year, recruiters across
> the nation were calling me. The shy nerdy girl in
> me was flattered, only to be extremely
> disappointed when the recruiters asked about my AP
> coursework and didn't want to talk a lick about
> IB. How could this be, especially since IB was
> sold to me and my cohort as the "creme de la
> creme" in education?
>
> So, do I have any regrets about IB or AP? My only
> regret is that I didn't sit for more AP exams. At
> the end of my high school career, I was physically
> and emotionally exhausted and chose to sit for all
> my 6 IB exams (3HL; 3 SL), but only one AP exam.
> While I received a college scholarship and credit,
> I realized that my peers who sat for more AP exams
> over IB exams were able to reap more credits and
> money since colleges offered more for AP.
>
> Since FCPS doesn't allow dual enrollment, what
> would I want for my children? With all that I
> know and have experienced, I would prefer that my
> children chose AP. However, the choice should
> remain with them and not forced upon them. (Just
> like a redistrict should not be forced upon the
> students, the parents or the community. We chose
> our neighborhoods and our schools!)
>
> I would like to propose to the board that you
> create a magnet school out of South Lakes,
> offering only the most exceptional classes -- IB,
> AP, fine arts (sounds like the music program is
> already trying to achieve this). WPHS in Orange
> County was accused by other area high schools of
> creating a magnet IB program that attracted the
> best and brightest away from their school (yes,
> all 60 of us, most of whom were already districted
> for WPHS caused a county-wide rucous and
> subsequent change).
>
> In response to other schools cries for additional
> monies, students and programs, Orange County
> Public Schools created special magnet programs at
> every school, so that each school had something to
> boast about and attract the "creme de la creme."
> What happened? Each school had a special
> attraction, and students had choices and
> flexibility.
>
> But the bottom-line - the choice was the
> student's.
>
> Please consider using tax payer money to create
> programs that attract, rather than pull
> communities apart.

Thanks for your perspective. I have some quick questions/comments. The IB diploma is truly a 2 year program, so I am a little confused about your comments regarding it being a four year program. I know that students do need a background in a language, and should have completed Alg. 2 by the end of sophomore year, but that doesn't mean it is a 4 year program. Schools do try to have students take honors/pre-IB courses, but those courses are nor required, nor are they part of the IB program.

You also wrote that you chose to do your IB exams over your AP exams. I am sure you meant that you focused on studying for those IB exams since they are required...you truly had no choice when it comes to taking IB exams, correct?

The 98% rate, does that mean 98% received the diploma? That is quite astounding. When did you graduate?

area1student,
one more question. Which universities were recruiting you that didn't discuss or know about IB? It is fairly well known that Florida Universities often provide very nice scholarships to IB diploma students. One university gives a full ride, I am blanking on the name, but the university did a study, one of the few comparing AP and IB, and they found that their IB students were better prepared "overall" for college life, and thus feel their genorosity towards IB diploma students is justified. The study and the Florida Universities recognition were both mentioned in Supertest.

arealstudent Wrote:

> Dear FCPS board,
> You've heard a lot about IB and AP, and I'd like
> to dispell some myths and give you honest,
> unbiased feedback about both programs.
> I am a proud recipient of the IB diploma.
>
> ... In the spring of my senior year, recruiters across
> the nation were calling me. The shy nerdy girl in
> me was flattered, only to be extremely
> disappointed when the recruiters asked about my AP
> coursework and didn't want to talk a lick about
> IB. How could this be, especially since IB was
> sold to me and my cohort as the "creme de la
> creme" in education?
>
> ... the choice should
> remain with them and not forced upon them. (Just
> like a redistrict should not be forced upon the
> students, the parents or the community. We chose
> our neighborhoods and our schools!)
> I would like to propose to the board that you
> create a magnet school out of South Lakes
>
> ... Please consider using tax payer money to create
> programs that attract, rather than pull
> communities apart.

-----
Congratulations on your IB Diploma and thank you for your insight. I have read good things about the Winter Park programme. I agree an all-IB Diploma candidate magnet would be wonderful.

Unfortunately, using taxpayer money to add ANYTHING right now is out of the question. FCPS has to make $100 million in cuts. For those who haven't followed this, the proposed cuts include having families pay for IB and AP exams. IB exams cost more, but IB students would only pay what AP students pay, with the taxpayer picking up the difference. FCPS would also cover the cost for FRM students.

Another proposed cut is to eliminate home-to-school buses for GT students to GT Centers if GT services are offered in their base schools.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Another proposed cut is to eliminate
> home-to-school buses for GT students to GT Centers
> if GT services are offered in their base schools.

My understanding is this refers to equal GT services, meaning level 4, not just if pull out GT services once a week is offered. If it is only pull out, and the student gets into the center level, they will be transported.

Oh, Forum Reader, I have been unable to find data breaking down AP scores for the calculus class we discussed a short while ago.

PADRE,

Come on.... make me proud, walk over and shake hands with Word.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I believe Mrs. Strauss answered the question on
> why certain schools got IB recently. To
> paraphrase: Once a decision was made to go with IB
> there was limited implementation time. That was
> best used at schools not having staff trained in
> and largely implementing AP. The explanation
> tracks somewhat with the staff training -school
> invigoration reasons given in J Matthews book
> Supertest.

I know someone else addressed when schools were implemented, but also want to share that it is not quite true "that once a decision is made the implementation time is limited". Each school considering IB goes through an authorization process of 2 years. During this time they can decide to fully pursue it, or not. That is why Woodson's was 2 years, to my understanding. After the authorization process is completed, re-authorization occurs every 5 years. It is not the disctrict as a whole that is authorized, it is each school.

IB has always required teacher training, and an authorization process. The College Board provides training but doesn't require AP teachers to be trained. That doesn't mean one program is inherently better than the other, just pointing out this difference.

Floris parent, it was repeated over and over by CAPS parents that only diploma candidates can take IB HL courses, which is absolutely not true. So the impression was given that only diploma candidates can get credits.

Caps parents repeatedly made the erroneous assertion that the IB program only serves diploma candidates and that colleges only recognize diploma candidates. South Lakes has a non-diploma candidate currently at UVA as an Echols Scholar - no diploma.

It was stated that college credits are not routinely given for SL courses, but that is not always the case. I will post later a great comparison of IB vs. AP and college credits from my home computer,if I remember.

It is stated on the CAPS website and at the hearings that IB is for kids not inclined to be involved in extra-curricular activities, which is also not the case. In fact, they are more likely to be involved in other activities. In fact, the easiest way to accumulate the Activity hours required for the diploma is to play a sport. It is very easy to rack up 50 hours in one season of any sport. Bingo, the requirement is done.

As for Fairfax Caps projections regarding the number of 5-9 year olds in Reston that should result in 1,000 more students that are somehow 'hiding' in Reston and the mass exodus myth, go back and look at the report. The projections for each and every school in the study based on 5-9 year olds should have each school with 1,000 extra students 'hiding' in their districts, so each school is experiencing a mass exodus. Where are they all going? Perhaps to Loudon or Prince William. But they are leaving every district at the same rate.

The SB has this information. They are not going to rely on Fairfax Caps to do their homework.

Note also that the McGibben report cited by CAPS absolutely nailed 2008 enrollments for South Lakes within 20 students, and was similarly accurate for the other schools.

You are clearly a smart person. I would encourage you to rely on your own investigations, and not data compiled by those with an agenda. Agendized groups rarely cite stats or facts that go against their arguments.

Here is my REAL problem with this redistricting. The women of the SLPTSA are not only unpleasant but in need of some fashion and hair guidance. If this thing goes through and my daughter ends up there... Will she have to don the obligatory plastic head band? How about paisley and floral?
Is this mandatory?
How about membership in the band or worse yet the GIRL SCOUTS? Will the lady with the Bun be her Troop Leader?

HOLY SHIT before I saw those women on TV, I thought SLHS was this diverse hot bed of trendy girls dying to get some Jewelry making classes to add to their panache.

How many of you SLPTSA Bs are sleeping with Stu anyway? He looks at you all with such intensity, all I can think is that he is either doing you or your husbands. He was enraptured with you ladies. Wiggling in his seat, arching his back, grinning that big polident grin. It was like watching porn!

Here is my REAL problem with this redistricting. The women of the SLPTSA are not only unpleasant but in need of some fashion and hair guidance. If this thing goes through and my daughter ends up there... Will she have to don the obligatory plastic head band? How about paisley and floral?
Is this mandatory?
How about membership in the band or worse yet the GIRL SCOUTS? Will the lady with the Bun be her Troop Leader?

HOLY SH-- before I saw those women on TV, I thought SLHS was this diverse hot bed of trendy girls dying to get some Jewelry making classes to add to their panache.

How many of you SLPTSA Bs are sleeping with Stu anyway? He looks at you all with such intensity, all I can think is that he is either doing you or your husbands. He was enraptured with you ladies. Wiggling in his seat, arching his back, grinning that big polident grin. It was like watching porn!

Free,

Did you have to post your dribble twice? Once was too much.

Free-Makeovers for SLPTSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is my REAL problem with this redistricting.
> The women of the SLPTSA are not only unpleasant
> but in need of some fashion and hair guidance. If
> this thing goes through and my daughter ends up
> there... Will she have to don the obligatory
> plastic head band? How about paisley and floral?
> Is this mandatory?
> How about membership in the band or worse yet the
> GIRL SCOUTS? Will the lady with the Bun be her
> Troop Leader?
>
> HOLY SH-- before I saw those women on TV, I
> thought SLHS was this diverse hot bed of trendy
> girls dying to get some Jewelry making classes to
> add to their panache.
>
> How many of you SLPTSA Bs are sleeping with Stu
> anyway? He looks at you all with such intensity,
> all I can think is that he is either doing you or
> your husbands. He was enraptured with you ladies.
> Wiggling in his seat, arching his back, grinning
> that big polident grin. It was like watching
> porn!

Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is the first comment
that makes sense especially about the Girl Scout leader.
And someone please offer the PTSA president a comb.

SLVerity,

Which CAPS people are you talking about? I was there for the first day's comments and I didn't hear the things you are citing. They are also not on the CAPS website. Instead, they say things that directly contradict what you wrote, like:

"Non-Diploma students take one or two of these [HL] courses. [Or they would be diploma candidates in all likelihood...]
Most IB exams taken in Fairfax County are for standard level courses and these DO NOT qualify for college credit at the top Virginia schools.

UVA and William & Mary give NO credit for standard level IB exams.
VT gives credit to standard level IB exams ONLY if the student receives the IB Diploma.
IB courses for Higher Level Math do not get the same level of college credit as AP.
VT gives NO CREDIT for IB HL Math unless the student is a diploma recipient.
UVA Engineering gives no credit for IB Math.
Both schools accept AP Calculus AB and BC for any student."

I guess personal attacks are all you have left. Save it,we know it's sour grapes.

By Michael Alison Chandler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 31, 2008; B05


Susan Sather, a South Lakes parent and Girl Scout troop leader. Sather wore her forest green jumper and argued that her 21 Brownies and Daisy Scouts deserve to look forward to "a community high school with enough students to let that school blossom."

sotrue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Free-Makeovers for SLPTSA Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Here is my REAL problem with this redistricting.
>
> > The women of the SLPTSA are not only unpleasant
> > but in need of some fashion and hair guidance.
> If
> > this thing goes through and my daughter ends up
> > there... Will she have to don the obligatory
> > plastic head band? How about paisley and
> floral?
> > Is this mandatory?
> > How about membership in the band or worse yet
> the
> > GIRL SCOUTS? Will the lady with the Bun be her
> > Troop Leader?
> >
> > HOLY SH-- before I saw those women on TV, I
> > thought SLHS was this diverse hot bed of trendy
> > girls dying to get some Jewelry making classes
> to
> > add to their panache.
> >
> > How many of you SLPTSA Bs are sleeping with Stu
> > anyway? He looks at you all with such
> intensity,
> > all I can think is that he is either doing you
> or
> > your husbands. He was enraptured with you
> ladies.
> > Wiggling in his seat, arching his back,
> grinning
> > that big polident grin. It was like watching
> > porn!
>
> Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is the first
> comment
> that makes sense especially about the Girl Scout
> leader.
> And someone please offer the PTSA president a
> comb.



R U Serious? Did you not see the lime green OOMPAH LOOMPAHS in the room? Or the classy, well-coiffed dame in the front whose sign you couldn't read EVERY TIME SHE STOOD UP.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity,
>
> Which CAPS people are you talking about? I was
> there for the first day's comments and I didn't
> hear the things you are citing. They are also not
> on the CAPS website. Instead, they say things
> that directly contradict what you wrote, like:
>
> "Non-Diploma students take one or two of these
> courses.
> Most IB exams taken in Fairfax County are for
> standard level courses and these DO NOT qualify
> for college credit at the top Virginia schools.
>
> UVA and William & Mary give NO credit for standard
> level IB exams.
> VT gives credit to standard level IB exams ONLY if
> the student receives the IB Diploma.
> IB courses for Higher Level Math do not get the
> same level of college credit as AP.
> VT gives NO CREDIT for IB HL Math unless the
> student is a diploma recipient.
> UVA Engineering gives no credit for IB Math.
> Both schools accept AP Calculus AB and BC for any
> student."

I haven't looked at the above Universities' websites, but trust what you are saying is true. George Mason though does provide credit for some SL credits: English, Environmental Science and Math..others too here is the link: http://admissions.gmu.edu/exams/ExamBaccalaureateInternational.asp

I have said it before, but will say it again, if you are interested in these courses primarily for college credit, perhaps AP is preferable. However,even if a college says you might earn credit for certain scores, they might change that. For example MIT each year states what they give credit for the previous class, but says (and I have checked for a few years worth..seeing the changes) that those students applying for the upcoming fall, while granted admission by April 1st, won't know which credits will be accepted until August..just before they start up in September.

In addition what a college accepts and what a department accepts often vary. Some studies and some professorial and student comments have reflected that what is taught in the college course skipped, is often broader or more intense than what was taught in the AP class (or IB) and that they then truly struggle in the 200 level courses.

SLVerity Wrote:
> Did you have to post your dribble twice? Once was
> too much.

--
Hey! Finally you posted something with which I entirely agree!

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris parent, it was repeated over and over by
> CAPS parents that only diploma candidates can take
> IB HL courses, which is absolutely not true. So
> the impression was given that only diploma
> candidates can get credits.
>
> Caps parents repeatedly made the erroneous
> assertion that the IB program only serves diploma
> candidates and that colleges only recognize
> diploma candidates. South Lakes has a non-diploma
> candidate currently at UVA as an Echols Scholar -
> no diploma.
>
> It was stated that college credits are not
> routinely given for SL courses, but that is not
> always the case. I will post later a great
> comparison of IB vs. AP and college credits from
> my home computer,if I remember.
>
> It is stated on the CAPS website and at the
> hearings that IB is for kids not inclined to be
> involved in extra-curricular activities, which is
> also not the case. In fact, they are more likely
> to be involved in other activities. In fact, the
> easiest way to accumulate the Activity hours
> required for the diploma is to play a sport. It
> is very easy to rack up 50 hours in one season of
> any sport. Bingo, the requirement is done.
>
> As for Fairfax Caps projections regarding the
> number of 5-9 year olds in Reston that should
> result in 1,000 more students that are somehow
> 'hiding' in Reston and the mass exodus myth, go
> back and look at the report. The projections for
> each and every school in the study based on 5-9
> year olds should have each school with 1,000
> extra students 'hiding' in their districts, so
> each school is experiencing a mass exodus. Where
> are they all going? Perhaps to Loudon or Prince
> William. But they are leaving every district at
> the same rate.
>
> The SB has this information. They are not going
> to rely on Fairfax Caps to do their homework.
>
> Note also that the McGibben report cited by CAPS
> absolutely nailed 2008 enrollments for South Lakes
> within 20 students, and was similarly accurate for
> the other schools.
>
> You are clearly a smart person. I would encourage
> you to rely on your own investigations, and not
> data compiled by those with an agenda. Agendized
> groups rarely cite stats or facts that go against
> their arguments.

SLV-
It is "McKibben"...

Although CAPs research is flawed your explanation of McKibben's work is equally as flawed.

And you have an agenda just like CAPs, so you can store the holier than thou attitude..

I assure you the school board is much more suspicious of any of their projections after blowing the last 3 boundary studies in a row with errors in projections

SL Verity or Ms. Jennings-

McGibben is actually McKibben and clearly you have not done the homework the rest of us have done. The margin of error in projections at SLHS alone is far higher than would result in only 20 kids. Last night at the hearing one of your people stated that the current enrollment is 1459. Do you all even know what the current enrollment is?

You and Mr. Gibson share tunnel vision. I thought it was a riot when one of your people got up and complained about how long it took you to get a new principal and how no one consulted you all about it, and how low the original budget was for your 60+ million dollar renovation. You have the nerve to refer to us as having a sense of ENTITLEMENT! If you had stuck around last night you would have heard the presentation by a man who provided the specific census data to support the information presented about the age cohorts in your attendance area. It is available to you on the internet. Feel free to find it yourself.

The CIP document says the cost of a new high school near Dulles would be $90M. That's more than Westfield cost, but its been a few years.

We spent about $75M on South Lakes renovations and Westfield and Langley additional capacity, and then wonder why Westfield and Chantilly have too much competition for the cheerleading team. Go figure.

Lake Ann is also slated for a $21M renovation, the same as the cost to build Coppermine.

What do they do in these renovations anyway?

Maybe we should do what they did at Dogwood more often.

Willy Wonka Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> R U Serious? Did you not see the lime green
> OOMPAH LOOMPAHS in the room? Or the classy,
> well-coiffed dame in the front whose sign you
> couldn't read EVERY TIME SHE STOOD UP.

Oh, you mean the one with the disgusting norge repairman butt crack that showed ever time she stood up, and the uncombed hair. She was definitely not a SL Stepford.

FACTS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe the capacity issues in FCPS are due to
> the fact that there are 8 out of 25 schools that
> are IB schools which equals 33%.
>
> The rest of the US has 500 out of 23,000 schools
> that are IB schools which equals 2%.
>
> The question is why?



In FFX County, the percentage of people who drive luxury cars (BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Rover) is 29%. The rest of the US has a percentage of people who drive luxury cars at less than 2%.

The question is why?

SLV,
I just pick a few paragraph of your and answered below:

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris parent, it was repeated over and over by
> CAPS parents that only diploma candidates can take
> IB HL courses, which is absolutely not true. So
> the impression was given that only diploma
> candidates can get credits.

I didn't hear any CAPS parents say only diploma candidates can take IB HL courses? Hello?
>
> As for Fairfax Caps projections regarding the
> number of 5-9 year olds in Reston that should
> result in 1,000 more students that are somehow
> 'hiding' in Reston and the mass exodus myth, go
> back and look at the report. The projections for
> each and every school in the study based on 5-9
> year olds should have each school with 1,000
> extra students 'hiding' in their districts, so
> each school is experiencing a mass exodus. Where
> are they all going? Perhaps to Loudon or Prince
> William. But they are leaving every district at
> the same rate.
>

Again, please read clearly, these are NOT CAPS projections, but most recent US Cencus Data. The McGibben study is also based on the same data which is adopted by FCPS. Hello again, are you saying FCPS's base is wrong?

> The SB has this information. They are not going
> to rely on Fairfax Caps to do their homework.
>
> Note also that the McGibben report cited by CAPS
> absolutely nailed 2008 enrollments for South Lakes
> within 20 students, and was similarly accurate for
> the other schools.
>
Unfortunately, the McGibben study is based on the US Cencus Data. The enrollment data for 2008 is correct, so you agree their school age population data is also correct?

> You are clearly a smart person. I would encourage
> you to rely on your own investigations, and not
> data compiled by those with an agenda. Agendized
> groups rarely cite stats or facts that go against
> their arguments.

It doesn't matter who compiled the data. What it matters is the source of data. I would not take anything if indeed as you say it's all CAPS projections. Fairfax CAPS certainly has its own agenda, but they make good argument with their data from US census, FCPS, VDOE. Unless, you want to point out all these goverment agencies doesn't understand SL's particular issue.

We have looked at the census data in great detail. Just because your guy speaks, doesn't mean he is correct. We also live here, you don't, and we know who lives in our neighborhoods. Thank you for correcting my spelling of the report, though.

Your attitude about the great speech given by Ridge Loux regarding the way South Lakes has been treated by prior School Boards is disgusting. If you had been in our shoes, you would be angry too. I wouldn't expect anything else from you, though.

I should have added, why is CAPS relying on the report, if indeed it is flawed? The report relied on the same census data, so perhaps the entire census is called into question. Perhaps it doesn't really matter, because the numbers are not here to support what your side says.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2008 02:40PM by SLVerity.

stop calling me McGibbon

Floris, I heard more than one person state that only Diploma candidates take HL courses. Perhaps they misunderstood the website or there was a language barrier.

Where are all the 5-9 year olds going who should be matriculating to Westfield and Chantilly and Oakton? Are your districts experiencing a mass exodus as well? According the the 5-9 year old projections for Westfield, for example, there should be 4,100 students enrolled.

If you are all so confident of your data, then so be it. We will present our findings, you can present yours, and the SB can assess.

I don't need to do your homework for you, though.

FACTS Wrote:
> Please tell me why you are not doing boundary
> studies for the following schools, when you are
> doing one for the western fairfax county area due
> to uncapacity at South Lakes.

-----------
You need to compare capacity to 2012 projections. Yes, of course the projections are flawed, but they are the best we have. Here are the projected number of empty seats in 2012 for the schools you listed:
MOUNT VERNON 836
FALLS CHURCH 771
South Lakes 750
STUART 143
LEE 105
HAYFIELD 91
MARSHALL 71
EDISON 33
McLEAN 19

Not on your list, but over 185 projected vacant seats in Sep 2012:
Lake Braddock 502
Herndon 299
West Potomac 268
Robinson 211
Westfield 190

Question for my fellow forum readers: Who believes in the "2,000" argument, that high schools should all aim for a population of 1,700 to 2,300, and therefore, logically, Westfield should become a secondary school, and Chantilly should have its modular addition removed? It seems like this point should be resolved before ANY redistricting is considered.

After that question is decided, then I fully agree with you, FACTS, that the whole county should be considered at the same time, using the same criteria for all high school redistricting.

Did someone mention my name?

You'all talk about the same thing again and again.

Wanna watch some reruns?




http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088559/

SLV - you have become quite nasty in your postings, I think you should take a break

Since we are having a spelling lesson, the correct spelling is c-e-n-s-u-s.

Gerhard Autobahn Wrote:
> In FFX County, the percentage of people who drive
> luxury cars (BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Rover) is 29%.
> The rest of the US has a percentage of people who
> drive luxury cars at less than 2%.

----------
Cite your source, please.

Word, do you mean nasty, as opposed to Free Makeover's lovely post?

You should get out more. Healthy debate is good. It is ok to disagree.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Where are all the 5-9 year olds going who should
> be matriculating to Westfield and Chantilly and
> Oakton? Are your districts experiencing a mass
> exodus as well? According the the 5-9 year old
> projections for Westfield, for example, there
> should be 4,100 students enrolled.
>


Read it carefully, CAPS use the 80% of the population as estimated student base. Then do you math 80% of 4100 is 3280. What is the current enrollment in Westfield? What's the exodus problem there?

Maybe or maybe not and the trend is going down, plus no one is preying on communities for that matter.

"Where are all the 5-9 year olds going who should be matriculating to Westfield and Chantilly and Oakton? Are your districts experiencing a mass exodus as well? According the the 5-9 year old projections for Westfield, for example, there should be 4,100 students enrolled. "

Statistics would be easier if you could just make em up, like Gerhard Autobahn does:

"In FFX County, the percentage of people who drive luxury cars (BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Rover) is 29%. The rest of the US has a percentage of people who drive luxury cars at less than 2%.

The question is why?"

Luxury cars/SUVs make up about 10% of the market, about 1.6 million vehicles out of 16 million new vehicles sold annually. So...its not 2%. Sorry.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/05/A01-50668.htm

I don't know anyw= way to validate the FFX county number, but if we assume its correct, its still just 3X the national average, not a factor of 15 more. The differences between here and other suburbs are small.

Thanks, forgot about that. When CAPS parents presented, they did mention they took 80% of the age group because high school spans four years.

Maybe IB program should provide more rigid training in logic, scientific reading? Sorry can't help being sarcastic.

ReadCareful Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Where are all the 5-9 year olds going who
> should
> > be matriculating to Westfield and Chantilly and
> > Oakton? Are your districts experiencing a mass
> > exodus as well? According the the 5-9 year old
> > projections for Westfield, for example, there
> > should be 4,100 students enrolled.
> >
>
>
> Read it carefully, CAPS use the 80% of the
> population as estimated student base. Then do you
> math 80% of 4100 is 3280. What is the current
> enrollment in Westfield? What's the exodus problem
> there?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have looked at the census data in great detail.
> Just because your guy speaks, doesn't mean he is
> correct. We also live here, you don't, and we
> know who lives in our neighborhoods. Thank you
> for correcting my spelling of the report, though.
>
>
> Your attitude about the great speech given by
> Ridge Loux regarding the way South Lakes has been
> treated by prior School Boards is disgusting. If
> you had been in our shoes, you would be angry too.
> I wouldn't expect anything else from you,
> though.
>
> I should have added, why is CAPS relying on the
> report, if indeed it is flawed? The report relied
> on the same census data, so perhaps the entire
> census is called into question. Perhaps it
> doesn't really matter, because the numbers are not
> here to support what your side says.

I said your interpretation of McKibben's work was flawed, not the original work itself, although it does have limitations.

The basic premise that there are kids in the SLHS pyramid that may return to the school with the improved "reputation" new principal and newly renovated school, with a tighter economy, and with a downturn in housing is very real.

The only debate should be around how many...not if

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair has a weird boundary. What are the
> demographic splits for the different area of
> McNair? How about the same for Floris?

taxpayer,

Yes, it sure does. 111 students in "North McNair" (that is, north of the Toll Road) attend Herndon HS. That is 24% of McNair's high school population. From what I've observed of this particular zone north of the Toll Road, it is mostly lower income and mostly Latino. These three diamond shaped islands look like they used to belong to Hutchison, but got shaved off and fed into McNair to balance out FRM and ESOL numbers between the two schools. I'll research and try to quantify and qualify this statement a bit later.

Someone out there who has observed differently please speak up.

But I can say with all certainty that "South McNair" is overwhelmingly middle income, yet still primarily immigrant in population from South Asia, East Asia, West Africa, North Africa, East Africa and Latin America. The South and East Asians are the most numerous.

Projections for 2008 by staff for SLHS were 1397, your people claim 1459, the website states 1443 and the VDOE website states 1504.

Floris- McKibben actually took more than just census data. He rolled in several factors. He was closer than staff but if he had been a local demographer could probably gotten closer because it helps to know the area.

It will be interesting to know which way the enrollment will go next year for SLHS. I would have anticipated another increase because it has had two years of increasing enrollment, however there is no telling what the WCBS will do to change that. THere are those 500 signatures from Castros petition, I would expect them to pupil place in, wouldnt you?

On the other side you have the negative press brought about by the WCBS. So its hard to tell.

Truthteller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We have looked at the census data in great
> detail.
> > Just because your guy speaks, doesn't mean he
> is
> > correct. We also live here, you don't, and we
> > know who lives in our neighborhoods. Thank you
> > for correcting my spelling of the report,
> though.
> >
> >
> > Your attitude about the great speech given by
> > Ridge Loux regarding the way South Lakes has
> been
> > treated by prior School Boards is disgusting.
> If
> > you had been in our shoes, you would be angry
> too.
> > I wouldn't expect anything else from you,
> > though.
> >
> > I should have added, why is CAPS relying on the
> > report, if indeed it is flawed? The report
> relied
> > on the same census data, so perhaps the entire
> > census is called into question. Perhaps it
> > doesn't really matter, because the numbers are
> not
> > here to support what your side says.
>
> I said your interpretation of McKibben's work was
> flawed, not the original work itself, although it
> does have limitations.
>
> The basic premise that there are kids in the SLHS
> pyramid that may return to the school with the
> improved "reputation" new principal and newly
> renovated school, with a tighter economy, and with
> a downturn in housing is very real.
>
> The only debate should be around how many...not if

So CAPS is prepared to send out the marshals to make darn sure those mysterious children are rounded up and, ahem, "forced" (which is the word they use for their own kids) into South Lakes in time to help the next eight years of students there? Or to pay for some kind of major marketing campaign to get the word out that South Lakes is "finally" a good school (even though it always was?)

You need to understand that a great majority of people who send their kids to private school don't like ANY public schools. On my street alone, there are at least six families who refuse to send their kids to one of the non-SL schools in question -- their base school and one lauded to the high heavens by its supporters. There are no more nor fewer of these families in SL than in any other district. If so, prove it! Furthermore, if there were such families, why are they still living in Reston? What's the point? Or why aren't they pupil-placing in greater numbers out of South Lakes before they get there, or at ALL once they do?

Your interpretation of the numbers is being used to support an argument for a moratorium, plain and simple. And I'd argue that some of the most voal affected families just plain old don't want to send their kids to a school with kids who don't look like them. (Else why wasn't there a hue and cry during redistricting to Westfield?? Why did so many parents race out of Hayfield so they could overcrowd South County?)

I find it supremely ironic that parents who never paid a lick of mind to South Lakes all of a sudden know exactly what will "cure" it. In the meantime, dozens of parents and teachers who have worked for years to stop the gerrymandering and pandering that have left South Lakes where it is today don't have a clue? Ironic.

I am not with CAPS nor did I ever say I knew what would "cure" SLHS and made no reference to a moratorium.

Further I don't give a damn what you do at SLHS because it won't involve my kids.

Parents went to SCSS from Hayfield because they believed FCPS projections. Do you?

Yes, but as you say, it is just a premise. Did you look at the McKibben graphs and see how top-heavy the South Lakes age graph is, when compared to other schools? Did you investigate the number of SF homes in each district relative to higher density units? Did you keep in mind that as families grow they tend to move up to SF homes, and that stocks of those homes are much higher outside the Reston boundary? You can't cherry-pick one data point and look at it in a vacuum. You must examine all the relevant data before making an assumption and broadcasting it in a bright red banner at the top of your website and having practically every speaker restate it during two nights of boundary hearings. BTW, critical thinkers look at the big picture, not just one piece of data.

Having said all that, I completely see why you don't want to move and why you defend your positions, and applaud you for doing so. I just don't like it when folks use cherry-picked data, and the SB can definitely see it. We will continue to defend ours as well and hope that you can appreciate that.

We have all been put in this position, so I think we should pledge to make the most of whatever happens, without hurling gratuitous insults or comments. All that does is poison the well, and in the end, we are all neighbors.

We have all spoken our minds, and those who haven't have one more chance on 2/9. Perhaps we should end this before things get ugly and before a final decision is rendered. You know, sort of like Seinfeld retiring the show while it was still good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2008 03:34PM by SLVerity.

FlorisT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Projections for 2008 by staff for SLHS were 1397,
> your people claim 1459, the website states 1443
> and the VDOE website states 1504.
>
> Floris- McKibben actually took more than just
> census data. He rolled in several factors. He
> was closer than staff but if he had been a local
> demographer could probably gotten closer because
> it helps to know the area.
>
> It will be interesting to know which way the
> enrollment will go next year for SLHS. I would
> have anticipated another increase because it has
> had two years of increasing enrollment, however
> there is no telling what the WCBS will do to
> change that. THere are those 500 signatures from
> Castros petition, I would expect them to pupil
> place in, wouldnt you?
>
> On the other side you have the negative press
> brought about by the WCBS. So its hard to tell.


Yes it is amazing how these projected enrollment numbers vary from different sources. It certainly shows that enrollment will rise next year even if the RD doesn't go through. I mean if this RD doesn't go through, then these people who want to send their kids to SL, by all means they can pupil-place their kids and that should boost the enrollment up even more. SL is getting a choice--asking for more kids while these targeted communities' choices are taken away.

Truthteller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not with CAPS nor did I ever say I knew what
> would "cure" SLHS and made no reference to a
> moratorium.
>
> Further I don't give a damn what you do at SLHS
> because it won't involve my kids.
>
> Parents went to SCSS from Hayfield because they
> believed FCPS projections. Do you?


You were presenting an argument in support of CAPS arguments. If you don't give a d**m about South Lakes, then get out of this forum. Or start one on fixing the boundary process itself if that's what you want to do. I, for one, will pay no attention to a think you have to say about THIS boundary change, just as I pay no attention to N**n because she is nothing but an agitator.

IBVeritas,

You should be ashamed of yourself for labelling people don't don't even know as racist, when there is zero evidence to suggest that, and plenty of evidence to suggest that the redistricting is NOT IN THEIR BEST INTEREST, for a variety of reasons you choose to ignore.

(Perhaps you have something in common with the SLHS teacher who basically said the same thing in their comments to school board Wednesday night. I would have argued for dismissal of that teacher then and there, strictly on the grounds that we deserve teachers who are not fomenting the politics of division.)

Or is your misguided self-righteousness and sense of victimhood blinding you to common decency?

IB Veritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truthteller Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am not with CAPS nor did I ever say I knew
> what
> > would "cure" SLHS and made no reference to a
> > moratorium.
> >
> > Further I don't give a damn what you do at SLHS
> > because it won't involve my kids.
> >
> > Parents went to SCSS from Hayfield because they
> > believed FCPS projections. Do you?
>
>
> You were presenting an argument in support of CAPS
> arguments. If you don't give a d**m about South
> Lakes, then get out of this forum. Or start one on
> fixing the boundary process itself if that's what
> you want to do. I, for one, will pay no attention
> to a think you have to say about THIS boundary
> change, just as I pay no attention to N**n because
> she is nothing but an agitator.

The don't reply, but don't for a minute think your opinion is the only valid one

SLVerity,

Compare the McKibben charts for South Lakes vs. Oakton. The peak ages for South Lakes are people in their 30's. The peak age for people on Oakton are people in their 40's. That doesn't support an argument that South Lakes is top-heavy. In that census, there were more 0-4s in South Lakes than Oakton, but that reversed by the time you got to school age, and continued through higher grades.

The point of CAPS et al is not that there are kids who are playing hooky or going to private school, but that the people in their 40s with high school age kids MOVED AWAY from South Lakes, and people in their 30s without kids, or with younger kids, moved in. As the school improves, we should expect this trend to reverse..as people without kids move away, others with kids will move in, and in fact enrollment at South Lakes is going up year over year and month over month in the last two years. The current problems with mortgages should help this situation, as South Lakes has more rental stock.

Maybe IBV has a different definition of diversity? Isn't that so obvious how diversified the CAPS parents are?

And this, if diversity is the goal of this RD, can someone explain where is Langley? Is this double standard?

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IBVeritas,
>
> You should be ashamed of yourself for labelling
> people don't don't even know as racist, when there
> is zero evidence to suggest that, and plenty of
> evidence to suggest that the redistricting is NOT
> IN THEIR BEST INTEREST, for a variety of reasons
> you choose to ignore.
>
> (Perhaps you have something in common with the
> SLHS teacher who basically said the same thing in
> their comments to school board Wednesday night. I
> would have argued for dismissal of that teacher
> then and there, strictly on the grounds that we
> deserve teachers who are not fomenting the
> politics of division.)
>
> Or is your misguided self-righteousness and sense
> of victimhood blinding you to common decency?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris parent, I have some questions. I know you
> don't want an IB school, and I understand your
> frustration with being pawns in several boundary
> studies, but, after listening to the many parents
> speaking in support of South Lakes, is your
> perception of South Lakes improved? Would you
> want your children in class with the students who
> spoke these last two nights? Would they be in
> good company? Would you as a parent be in good
> company with the parents you heard? I promise
> you, as a parent of two graduates now attending
> UVa, your children would receive a fine education
> at South Lakes. They would also love their school.
>
>
> Whatever happens, your children will be great. I
> am sure of it because you are obviously a caring
> parent.

SLV, there is no need for me to change my perception of South Lakes, as I do not have bad perception of the school in the 1st place. I am also sure that the school has some very fine children attending, and I did indeen get to see and hear some very involved and passionate parents of South Lakes.

The issue that we already are in a High School pyramid that has the same type of children and parents, and we are also very supportive of our school.

I would have to assume that most if not all of the current parents who have children attending SL, compared all of the available schools and neighborhoods in Western Fairfax County, and decided that the Reston lifestyle and amenities, along with the High School was a good fit. We did our research as well and decided that Oakton HS was the right fit for us, (until the SB told us that our future was infact going to be at Westfield). We have made the best of the move, and are very happy with Westfield.

I would never support a RD to South Lakes,or any other school until such time as the School Board, conducts a true, proximity based boundary study that includes "all" of those home within a certain proximity. In addition, I would not support any RD until the SB has actually done a true study on why some schools are under ebnrolled, and why others are growing.

There was a lady who spoke last night, and said that she and her husband are newly relocated to the area due to her husbands job in Ashburn. I believe she indicated that she had 4 children. This wowan said that prior to the move, she did extensive research on all available schools within a reasonable communte from hubbys job, and decided to "Choose" South Lakes. Here is the rub-she and her family "Chose South Lakes, knowing everything that was available about the school, and now suddenly, "she has a problem with the size of the school and the lack of resources and programs". She knew what the school was all about, but now she wants better?

I heard many other parents and students give reason for why the "Chose" SL High, (especially those children who chose to leave TJ or Madison). Again, it is wonderful that the parents and student were able to Choose a school that would be best for them. This is a choice that all of us should be able to make.

I expect that if the SB was saying that due to lack of enrollment at South lakes, they had decided to convert SL into an Administration building, and relocate all student into the surrounding schools, we would be hearing a different chorus from those in Reston.

Please understand, that almost all of those who oppose the RD, are not attacking South Lakes, and the only time that I heard mention of "gangs, drugs, etc. regarding South Lakes, came from parents who are supporting this RD. We in fact are very much in support of your right to enjoy and be proud of your students, unique curriculum, and all of the other wonderful attributes of your school.

Being anti RD does not equate to anti Reston. We are simply pro choice, and feel, just like Stu Gibson did in 2003 when he stated that "the people living in North Reston, do not want to go to South Lakes, and they chose to live in other ares to go to different schools. He for one was not going to support any boundary changes.

BTW, were you able to locate any information as to whether the has been a forced RD from an AP to an IB based currriculum?

Oakton, the point is, they are moving out of townhouses and into single family homes when they get to forty, and there are more SF homes in the other districts. The same will happen when those thirty-somethings want to move up, hopefully at a lesser rate. I actually have stated many times that some families choose to move out because compared to the surrounding schools, South Lakes pales, and it is entirely due to demographics. Our middle-class college-bound students are just as successful as those at Chantilly, Oakton, or Westfield. Look at the numbers and you will see.

Despite what you believe, I can promise you that neighborhoods surrounding me are full of empty-nesters. Actually, I am one!! Yikes. My neighborhood has 59 homes and only 1/5 of them house school-aged children. When the neighborhood was built, 75% of the homes housed school-aged children. We have a lot of empty-nesters. Your neighborhoods will too, in a dozen or so years. South Lakes needs help now.

I do wonder, when there are thirty trailers between the other schools in the study, why should a little overcrowding at SL concern anyone? We would love to have that problem. It is a moot point, particularly when Option 5 leaves 18 trailers at Chantilly.

Do I hope the school improves? Yes, of course, but we need help now.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, but as you say, it is just a premise. Did
> you look at the McKibben graphs and see how
> top-heavy the South Lakes age graph is, when
> compared to other schools? Did you investigate
> the number of SF homes in each district relative
> to higher density units? Did you keep in mind
> that as families grow they tend to move up to SF
> homes, and that stocks of those homes are much
> higher outside the Reston boundary? You can't
> cherry-pick one data point and look at it in a
> vacuum. You must examine all the relevant data
> before making an assumption and broadcasting it in
> a bright red banner at the top of your website and
> having practically every speaker restate it during
> two nights of boundary hearings. BTW, critical
> thinkers look at the big picture, not just one
> piece of data.
>
> Having said all that, I completely see why you
> don't want to move and why you defend your
> positions, and applaud you for doing so. I just
> don't like it when folks use cherry-picked data,
> and the SB can definitely see it. We will
> continue to defend ours as well and hope that you
> can appreciate that.
>
> We have all been put in this position, so I think
> we should pledge to make the most of whatever
> happens, without hurling gratuitous insults or
> comments. All that does is poison the well, and
> in the end, we are all neighbors.
>
> We have all spoken our minds, and those who
> haven't have one more chance on 2/9. Perhaps we
> should end this before things get ugly and before
> a final decision is rendered. You know, sort of
> like Seinfeld retiring the show while it was still
> good.

Yes, I have looked at McKibben. Many times. I don't believe I insulted you or your community.

I have looked at the global picture...

The SB has no clue on the numbers

Do you disagree with my premise that some kids will come?

Prove the forced RD is the only thing can help SL, Since when RD becomes means to improve one particular school?

And the claim "we need to move forward because there's not enough time left" is not quite rational either, for an RD at least. An RD needs to be carefully examined, well planned -- so that a few years later, people won't come back to RD meetings because the current one screwed up. Make sense?

It's not right to adopt a purely facility approach to address the SL issues, it's incompetence to rush, when there's clearly questions to the foundation, scope, process, data, on the RD study, with a lack of program and cost analysis.

I understand your frustration, but isn't it wrong in the first place to use RD?



"Do I hope the school improves? Yes, of course, but we need help now."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2008 04:17PM by Floris.

SlVerity,

I understand your point, and agree with your statements about the success of SLHS students. I don't believe I have ever said anything negative about the students, the school population, or the opportunities it offers, except e.g. to make comparative assessments about IB vs. AP suitability for average college going kids.

That said, anecdotes are not statistics. The 2000 census data doesn't show Reston as being among those with an aging population compared to Oakton and several others, despite your street. If I look on my cul-de-sac, I can count a dozen empty-nesters, many of them recently so. Its not a phenomenon localized to your district. That doesn't really matter, except people including yourself just a minute ago blamed the loss of students on aging of the population, vs. loss of 40-somethings. The two problems are opposites.

Does anyone have Maria Casto's phone number or and e-mail address? I heard that she had a petition with about 500 signatures representing families that want to switch to South Lakes. She indicated that the SB would be presented with the petition next week. Hopefully it will be made pubic record.


I think that it would be prudent to set up a voluntary meeting at Fox Mill ES, so that a head count can be conducted to determine exactly how many families want to send their children into South Lakes. We may not even have to RD since it appears that so many want to change.

BTW, did anyone notice how many of the SL supporters kept saying that there are 700 empty seats at South Lakes? I belive that with the Renovation, capacity will be at 2050, and it appears that enrollment is at close to 1500. Assuming that South Lakes needs at least a 10% buffer in capacity for future development, and for the new young families that will eventually move into the existing SF homes. ( this assumes that at some point the empty nesters will either move into retirement homes or die), it appears that SL only has about 300 empty seats, which would put it at an enrollment size of most other schools in the county.

I would expect that with all of the wonderful information that has been told about South Lakes, like the new building, new principal, soaring test scores, great IB curriculum and the warm and friendy staff and student body etc., South Lakes is going to see a surge in voluntary enrollments via Pupil placement etc.

I believe that waiting a year, to allow the enrollments at South Lakes to voluntarily rise would be very prudent. This will also give the SB and Staff time to address why they have completely ignored many schools that are in much more difficult circumstances.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris parent, I have some questions. I know
> you
> > don't want an IB school, and I understand your
> > frustration with being pawns in several
> boundary
> > studies, but, after listening to the many
> parents
> > speaking in support of South Lakes, is your
> > perception of South Lakes improved? Would you
> > want your children in class with the students
> who
> > spoke these last two nights? Would they be in
> > good company? Would you as a parent be in good
> > company with the parents you heard? I promise
> > you, as a parent of two graduates now attending
> > UVa, your children would receive a fine
> education
> > at South Lakes. They would also love their
> school.
> >
> >
> > Whatever happens, your children will be great.
> I
> > am sure of it because you are obviously a
> caring
> > parent.
>
> SLV, there is no need for me to change my
> perception of South Lakes, as I do not have bad
> perception of the school in the 1st place. I am
> also sure that the school has some very fine
> children attending, and I did indeen get to see
> and hear some very involved and passionate parents
> of South Lakes.
>
> The issue that we already are in a High School
> pyramid that has the same type of children and
> parents, and we are also very supportive of our
> school.
>
> I would have to assume that most if not all of the
> current parents who have children attending SL,
> compared all of the available schools and
> neighborhoods in Western Fairfax County, and
> decided that the Reston lifestyle and amenities,
> along with the High School was a good fit. We did
> our research as well and decided that Oakton HS
> was the right fit for us, (until the SB told us
> that our future was infact going to be at
> Westfield). We have made the best of the move, and
> are very happy with Westfield.
>
> I would never support a RD to South Lakes,or any
> other school until such time as the School Board,
> conducts a true, proximity based boundary study
> that includes "all" of those home within a certain
> proximity. In addition, I would not support any RD
> until the SB has actually done a true study on why
> some schools are under ebnrolled, and why others
> are growing.
>
> There was a lady who spoke last night, and said
> that she and her husband are newly relocated to
> the area due to her husbands job in Ashburn. I
> believe she indicated that she had 4 children.
> This wowan said that prior to the move, she did
> extensive research on all available schools within
> a reasonable communte from hubbys job, and decided
> to "Choose" South Lakes. Here is the rub-she and
> her family "Chose South Lakes, knowing everything
> that was available about the school, and now
> suddenly, "she has a problem with the size of the
> school and the lack of resources and programs".
> She knew what the school was all about, but now
> she wants better?
>
> I heard many other parents and students give
> reason for why the "Chose" SL High, (especially
> those children who chose to leave TJ or Madison).
> Again, it is wonderful that the parents and
> student were able to Choose a school that would be
> best for them. This is a choice that all of us
> should be able to make.
>
> I expect that if the SB was saying that due to
> lack of enrollment at South lakes, they had
> decided to convert SL into an Administration
> building, and relocate all student into the
> surrounding schools, we would be hearing a
> different chorus from those in Reston.
>
> Please understand, that almost all of those who
> oppose the RD, are not attacking South Lakes, and
> the only time that I heard mention of "gangs,
> drugs, etc. regarding South Lakes, came from
> parents who are supporting this RD. We in fact are
> very much in support of your right to enjoy and be
> proud of your students, unique curriculum, and all
> of the other wonderful attributes of your school.
>
> Being anti RD does not equate to anti Reston. We
> are simply pro choice, and feel, just like Stu
> Gibson did in 2003 when he stated that "the people
> living in North Reston, do not want to go to South
> Lakes, and they chose to live in other ares to go
> to different schools. He for one was not going to
> support any boundary changes.
>
> BTW, were you able to locate any information as to
> whether the has been a forced RD from an AP to an
> IB based currriculum?


Thanks, Floris Parent. It was an excellent post. These sb members especially Stu need to read your post. Also, a SL supporter spoke last night talking about why redistricting should go through and then he said if the RD doesn't go through, there will be a negative thought permeated throughout the SL community, what does this tell us? That comment bothered me.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone have Maria Casto's phone number or and
> e-mail address? I heard that she had a petition
> with about 500 signatures representing families
> that want to switch to South Lakes. She indicated
> that the SB would be presented with the petition
> next week. Hopefully it will be made pubic record.
>
>
>
> I think that it would be prudent to set up a
> voluntary meeting at Fox Mill ES, so that a head
> count can be conducted to determine exactly how
> many families want to send their children into
> South Lakes. We may not even have to RD since it
> appears that so many want to change.
>
> BTW, did anyone notice how many of the SL
> supporters kept saying that there are 700 empty
> seats at South Lakes? I belive that with the
> Renovation, capacity will be at 2050, and it
> appears that enrollment is at close to 1500.
> Assuming that South Lakes needs at least a 10%
> buffer in capacity for future development, and for
> the new young families that will eventually move
> into the existing SF homes. ( this assumes that at
> some point the empty nesters will either move into
> retirement homes or die), it appears that SL only
> has about 300 empty seats, which would put it at
> an enrollment size of most other schools in the
> county.
>
> I would expect that with all of the wonderful
> information that has been told about South Lakes,
> like the new building, new principal, soaring test
> scores, great IB curriculum and the warm and
> friendy staff and student body etc., South Lakes
> is going to see a surge in voluntary enrollments
> via Pupil placement etc.
>
> I believe that waiting a year, to allow the
> enrollments at South Lakes to voluntarily rise
> would be very prudent. This will also give the SB
> and Staff time to address why they have completely
> ignored many schools that are in much more
> difficult circumstances.


Exactly, I agree that this process needs to be slowed down. So much publicity has been made about South Lakes that I am quite certain the enrollment will go up that we do not need this RD to go through. Ms. Castro--I believe she lives in the Fox Mill area..she can certainly take her 500 signatures to take in for pupil placement, she really should not force the entire Fox Mill community to go along with her petition. Maybe CAPS can find that out for you regarding how you can reach Ms. Castro?

IB Veritas Wrote:
> ... Your interpretation of the numbers is being used
> to support an argument for a moratorium, plain and
> simple. And I'd argue that some of the most voal
> affected families just plain old don't want to
> send their kids to a school with kids who don't
> look like them. ...

Do you believe FCPS high schools should have 2,000 students (give or take 300)? If so, then you logically support a moratorium so Westfield and Chantilly can be properly downsized.

Do you believe empty space should be used? Then logically you support a moratorium so Falls Church can be properly filled.

You say that you'd "argue that some of the most vocal affected families just plain old don't want to send their kids to a school with kids who don't look like them." To again quote your post, "If so, prove it!" Stop accusing those with whom you disagree of racism. [If you meant something else, please rephrase it.]

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The IB curriculum is unique, as is the entire
> concept of Reston. When a community "Chooses" to
> offer a curriculum that is not offered in all of
> the schools that South Lakes wants to be on par
> with, it is not reasonable to expect to have the
> same enrollment.

I agree with most of your post but must insist on correcting this small portion.

SL did not chose IB. IB was forced on SL without input or consultation.

Whether the parents of the SL pyramid would chose IB is a very open question to which no one can claim to know the answer because those parents have never been asked.

If the redistricting process results in a return of SL to AP, this SL parent, and many many others, would be very happy. If the SL AP supporting parents are the minority, we can pupil place or make other adjustments and survive.

Please don't presume that IB is the choice of the majority of SL pyramid parents.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2008 04:41PM by Thomas More.

Hi everyone ... it has been a while since I have written, but I have been following this thread ... the good, the bad and the ugly. I would like to present an analogy here, not to create an argument, but to demonstrate how this appears. The names are fictitious (they just make life easier).

Bob and Mary are managers. Their teams are compensated based on team and individual productivity. While both teams are performing above average by industry standards, Bob's team is at the top of the company and Mary's is not. Cathy and Joe are on Bob's team (they took this job specifically to be on that team) and might be switched to Mary's - everyone believes that Mary's team will get better, but Cathy and Joe love their team and believe that they will have a meaningful drop in income for the next few years by switching. They also know it will help the rest of the folks on Mary's team if they were to switch. In the meantime, the rest of the folks on Bob's team know that they will not be able to backfill those positions if Cathy and Joe leave.

So if Cathy and Joe are forced to switch, what happens. Bob's team loses income as team productivity goes down. Cathy and Joe lose income as they are moving to a good, albeit less productive team. Mary's team wins as their team productivity increases -- and potentially Cathy and Joe help with individual performances as well. WOW - Bob's team did not have internal issues, was performing well with the right number of people - and now they are suffernig.

Bob's team is Oakton. Mary's team is SL. WOW - this really sucks for Oakton (not just Cathy and Joe). Everyone loves Mary and her team, and feels bad that prior issues have created this imbalance. They want to help, but not sacrifice if at all possible.

However, if Mary were to see what she could do by teaming with Bob, asking for his support, and learning from what makes his team more successful all of this could be avoided. And perhaps Mary's team's performance would improve so there might be a more natural desire for more folks to join that team.

SL - folks are now more aware of some of the challenges you are facing. And, for good or bad, are finally llistening and willing to help. It will take some serious restraint on your part, but if you were to be open to collaborative solutions (as opposed to being perceived as RD single-minded), we might get a community working together here.

BTW, I am not suggesting your are single minded, but people are perceiving you as such as evidenced on this site. Please do not take that out of context - I am not stating a fact, just a perception (which by definition is not wrong - it just is).

Good luck!

Hi everyone ... it has been a while since I have written, but I have been following this thread ... the good, the bad and the ugly. I would like to present an analogy here, not to create an argument, but to demonstrate how this appears. The names are fictitious (they just make life easier).

Bob and Mary are managers. Their teams are compensated based on team and individual productivity. While both teams are performing above average by industry standards, Bob's team is at the top of the company and Mary's is not. Cathy and Joe are on Bob's team (they took this job specifically to be on that team) and might be switched to Mary's - everyone believes that Mary's team will get better, but Cathy and Joe love their team and believe that they will have a meaningful drop in income for the next few years by switching. They also know it will help the rest of the folks on Mary's team if they were to switch. In the meantime, the rest of the folks on Bob's team know that they will not be able to backfill those positions if Cathy and Joe leave.

IB Veritas Wrote:
> ... If you don't [care] about South
> Lakes, then get out of this forum. Or start one on
> fixing the boundary process itself if that's what
> you want to do. I, for one, will pay no attention
> to a think you have to say about THIS boundary
> change ...

The title of this thread is "high school redistricting," NOT "South Lakes."

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am sure the staff at South Lakes would do everything to accommodate them.

Are you referring to the same SL "staff" that blatantly ignores IDEA violations and Title IX violations and ignores parents complaint about teachers and staff?

How come you had an SL art teacher testify in your place?

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IBVeritas,
>
> You should be ashamed of yourself for labelling
> people don't don't even know as racist, when there
> is zero evidence to suggest that, and plenty of
> evidence to suggest that the redistricting is NOT
> IN THEIR BEST INTEREST, for a variety of reasons
> you choose to ignore.
>
> (Perhaps you have something in common with the
> SLHS teacher who basically said the same thing in
> their comments to school board Wednesday night. I
> would have argued for dismissal of that teacher
> then and there, strictly on the grounds that we
> deserve teachers who are not fomenting the
> politics of division.)
>
> Or is your misguided self-righteousness and sense
> of victimhood blinding you to common decency?

Boy, you can dish but you opponents can't take it!

So, when I point out the fact that some people don't want to go to South Lakes because of the heterogeneity there and the poor kids -- and the FACT that they freely tell me and many others so when the don't know whose "side" we're on -- that I should be ashamed? WHO should be ashamed, here? I have heard DOZENS of people say they don't like that "element" at South Lakes. And they've posted here. Now they're hiding behind a dislike of IB and a bunch of cherry-picked numbers. Sorry. If you don't believe this, then you're deaf.

On the other hand, there are a great many others who simply don't want to change schools, nothing to do with the makeup of SL. But they all of a sudden know what's "best" for South Lakes, having never given it a single thought until two or three months ago -- except perhaps to go along with the rumors about it. Now they've "seen the light" and it's -- "Wait for invisible kids to fill 'er up." And "NOW that you've got a good school, everyone will pupil-place there." This is a bunch of malarky.

How convenient for you to call me self-righteous, which you should look up. Talk about labeling. And who's the victim? So many parents last night are creating victims out of their children, filling their minds up with the notion that they will sink into depression and become psychopaths if they change schools. South Lakes is going to have a time of it helping re-educate those kids and helping them overcome the trepidation they've been filled with. But that school will welcome them. And those kids will discover they can survive, keep old friends, and make new ones, and thrive. And, if their parents really care about community, they will too.

South Lakes, if it is a victim of anything, is a victim of rampant rumormongering and School Board neglect. The school board has a chance to rectify the gerrymandering that created the underenrollment problem in the first place. If it does the right thing, that's what it will do.

I don't expect you or any other redistricting opponents to respond to any of the legitimate issues raised. You'll just keep denying you're racists, which I never called anyone, because you don't have a response to the real arguments.

Excellent idea Floris Parent. Erika Castro must have her own agent, since she gets her name in all the papers and also finds herself in the spotlight on all the local TV networks. She shouldn't be hard to find and yes she does live in Fox Mill. One of her "group" inadvertently sent me an email meant only for those who favor redistricting - unbelieveable! She went on and on about how to subvert attention away from us who oppose it and how they can "win". Good luck with that - your name is mud in Fox Mill Erica, if you didn't already know! And talk about handing someone a hairbrush....

Don't worry about South Lakes trying to "re-educate" redistricted kids IB Veritas, you're really fooling yourself if you think that many kids are actually going to show up.

One more point: Westfield, Chantilly, Oakton, Madision parents would be PO'd if South Lakes parents marched into your schools and told you how to "fix" all your problems. The only one at issue here for Westfield and Chantilly is overcrowding (yes, overcrowding. 30 trailers is ovecrowding) -- We're not saying a word about your "programmatic" issues or about who places in or out of there or why or how to "fix" problems with underachievement or how you you should take advantage of your "diversity" or how AP can be improved with IB or thrown out altogether or why there is an Exodus from your schools (according to the report) or why your scores improve or don't improve or why you should have a magnet or be a magnet or anything else. The only time anything like SL opinions about those programs comes up is when you try to "cure" South Lakes with those notions.

Wait a second, are you reading too much in your own mind? I don't think I hear a lot of people say they know what's the best for SL last night? Instead, the punch line I heard quite a few times is "we don't know what the right answer is, but we know RD is not the right answer".

Like I said earlier, RD is purely a facility method, and should be done under solid foundation, with good data/cost analysis, and well planned. The fact SL supporters hate the idea just proves that RD should not be used to improve one particular school, at the expense of neiboughing communities. Anyone wants to rush an RD when there're clearly questions, flaws, need to think twice.




"On the other hand, there are a great many others who simply don't want to change schools, nothing to do with the makeup of SL. But they all of a sudden know what's "best" for South Lakes, having never given it a single thought until two or three months ago -- except perhaps to go along with the rumors about it. Now they've "seen the light" and it's -- "Wait for invisible kids to fill 'er up." And "NOW that you've got a good school, everyone will pupil-place there." This is a bunch of malarky. "

IB Veritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > IBVeritas,
> >
> > You should be ashamed of yourself for labelling
> > people don't don't even know as racist, when
> there
> > is zero evidence to suggest that, and plenty of
> > evidence to suggest that the redistricting is
> NOT
> > IN THEIR BEST INTEREST, for a variety of
> reasons
> > you choose to ignore.
> >
> > (Perhaps you have something in common with the
> > SLHS teacher who basically said the same thing
> in
> > their comments to school board Wednesday night.
> I
> > would have argued for dismissal of that teacher
> > then and there, strictly on the grounds that we
> > deserve teachers who are not fomenting the
> > politics of division.)
> >
> > Or is your misguided self-righteousness and
> sense
> > of victimhood blinding you to common decency?
>
> Boy, you can dish but you opponents can't take
> it!
>
> So, when I point out the fact that some people
> don't want to go to South Lakes because of the
> heterogeneity there and the poor kids -- and the
> FACT that they freely tell me and many others so
> when the don't know whose "side" we're on -- that
> I should be ashamed? WHO should be ashamed, here?
> I have heard DOZENS of people say they don't like
> that "element" at South Lakes. And they've posted
> here. Now they're hiding behind a dislike of IB
> and a bunch of cherry-picked numbers. Sorry. If
> you don't believe this, then you're deaf.
>
> On the other hand, there are a great many others
> who simply don't want to change schools, nothing
> to do with the makeup of SL. But they all of a
> sudden know what's "best" for South Lakes, having
> never given it a single thought until two or three
> months ago -- except perhaps to go along with the
> rumors about it. Now they've "seen the light" and
> it's -- "Wait for invisible kids to fill 'er up."
> And "NOW that you've got a good school, everyone
> will pupil-place there." This is a bunch of
> malarky.
>
> How convenient for you to call me self-righteous,
> which you should look up. Talk about labeling. And
> who's the victim? So many parents last night are
> creating victims out of their children, filling
> their minds up with the notion that they will sink
> into depression and become psychopaths if they
> change schools. South Lakes is going to have a
> time of it helping re-educate those kids and
> helping them overcome the trepidation they've been
> filled with. But that school will welcome them.
> And those kids will discover they can survive,
> keep old friends, and make new ones, and thrive.
> And, if their parents really care about community,
> they will too.
>
> South Lakes, if it is a victim of anything, is a
> victim of rampant rumormongering and School Board
> neglect. The school board has a chance to rectify
> the gerrymandering that created the
> underenrollment problem in the first place. If it
> does the right thing, that's what it will do.
>
> I don't expect you or any other redistricting
> opponents to respond to any of the legitimate
> issues raised. You'll just keep denying you're
> racists, which I never called anyone, because you
> don't have a response to the real arguments.

Yes, I did have a response. You just didn't like it. I am not opposed to RD and don't agree with CAPs. I find your response below to be at best hypocritical given your earlier response to me.

"Boy, you can dish but you opponents can't take
> it!

fmparent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't worry about South Lakes trying to
> "re-educate" redistricted kids IB Veritas, you're
> really fooling yourself if you think that many
> kids are actually going to show up.

Where will all the people go? Last year they did a moratorium on a boundary chnage to Lake Braddock and now the school board is giving South County a new middle school rather than move a couple hundred kids. I'm surprised the CAPS people aren't mentionning that. It's pretty clear from the lack of questions submitted on the study that board members are not partuclarly sympathetic.

Overall they are avoiding the issue of fiscal responsibility-transportation inefficiencies and school assignments, Westfield addition, Langley addition, West County Adult ed center, Lake Braddock addition, size of the new Glasgow. Not to mention other items in the proposed budget. Want to pay higher property taxes on top of the boundary chnage to an IB school?

IB Veritas - So why are you playing with Oakton? You feel you should benefit and someone else suffer? If you believed what you said, you would not accept any solution that leaves Oakton several hunderd students under capacity. You would fight for a solution that moves students from overcapacity schools (Langley) to underpopulated (SL). Ahh ... but it is easier to get what you want and rationalize it as opposed to pursue what you say you believe. You are an arrogant, selfish SOB.

And by the way, no redstricting should occur right now, I just wanted to point out how inconsistent you are.


IB Veritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One more point: Westfield, Chantilly, Oakton,
> Madision parents would be PO'd if South Lakes
> parents marched into your schools and told you how
> to "fix" all your problems. The only one at issue
> here for Westfield and Chantilly is overcrowding
> (yes, overcrowding. 30 trailers is ovecrowding) --
> We're not saying a word about your "programmatic"
> issues or about who places in or out of there or
> why or how to "fix" problems with underachievement
> or how you you should take advantage of your
> "diversity" or how AP can be improved with IB or
> thrown out altogether or why there is an Exodus
> from your schools (according to the report) or why
> your scores improve or don't improve or why you
> should have a magnet or be a magnet or anything
> else. The only time anything like SL opinions
> about those programs comes up is when you try to
> "cure" South Lakes with those notions.

fmparent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't worry about South Lakes trying to
> "re-educate" redistricted kids IB Veritas, you're
> really fooling yourself if you think that many
> kids are actually going to show up.


But the question is, can SL people go to Oakton, Westfield, Langley and private schools to re-educate these students?

Well, not all diversity is the same...

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone else enjoy the delicious irony of the
> Stepfords wailing about how undiverse Westfield &
> Chantilly are to all of the 1st generation
> FairfaxCAPS speakers?

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLVerity Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
>
> >
> > Please understand, that almost all of those who
> > oppose the RD, are not attacking South Lakes,
> and
> > the only time that I heard mention of "gangs,
> > drugs, etc. regarding South Lakes, came from
> > parents who are supporting this RD. We in fact
> are
> > very much in support of your right to enjoy and
> be
> > proud of your students, unique curriculum, and
> all
> > of the other wonderful attributes of your
> school.
> >
> > Being anti RD does not equate to anti Reston.
> We
> > are simply pro choice, and feel, just like Stu
> > Gibson did in 2003 when he stated that "the
> people
> > living in North Reston, do not want to go to
> South
> > Lakes, and they chose to live in other ares to
> go
> > to different schools. > >
> > >
>
> Thanks, Floris Parent. It was an excellent post.
> These sb members especially Stu need to read your
> post. Also, a SL supporter spoke last night
> talking about why redistricting should go through
> and then he said if the RD doesn't go through,
> there will be a negative thought permeated
> throughout the SL community, what does this tell
> us? That comment bothered me.

Are you joking? Go back through the pages of comments that have put down SL and the "social experiment" of Reston.

As for the comment you didn't understand: if they stop this RD, SL will be stigmatized for a long time, fair or not. It already doesn't have a good reputation, and it will only get worse. As a future SL parent (kids in Hunters Woods), I will not believe in SL if the SB won't. They will affirm all the bad things said about SL, IB, etc. if they essentially say SL is not a good enough school for other areas to attend.

Again, if it is a good school, go forward with the change. If it is so bad, close it and move us somewhere else.

IBVeritas channels Britney Spears and offers some interesting insights.

For example, she notes earlier on this page:

"And I'd argue that some of the most vocal affected families just plain old don't want to send their kids to a school with kids who don't look like them."

Then she seems to forget all about this:

"You'll just keep denying you're racists, which I never called anyone"

Grow up. That's exactly what "kids who don't look like them" means.

She then goes on to suggest that South Lakes will "welcome them", but only if their families refrain from offering any suggestions about how to improve the schools' desirability to people a) already in the district and b) being reassigned. Since, of course, they only recently took an interest in South Lakes, their perspective must be useless. Nice welcome there, kiddo. Did it ever occur to you that people are taking an interest in South Lakes now because their KIDS WILL GO TO SCHOOL THERE?

Get a clue.

IB Veritas Wrote:
Date: February 01, 2008 03:15PM
> ...I'd argue that some of the most voal
> affected families just plain old don't want to
> send their kids to a school with kids who don't
> look like them. ...

IB Veritas Wrote:
Date: February 01, 2008 04:53PM
> ... You'll just keep denying you're
> racists, which I never called anyone ...

IBV,
If you did not mean "families just plain old don't want to send their kids to a school with kids who don't look like them" are "racists" then what did you mean?

Tired Wrote:
> ... if they
> stop this RD, SL will be stigmatized for a long
> time, fair or not. It already doesn't have a good
> reputation, and it will only get worse. As a
> future SL parent (kids in Hunters Woods), I will
> not believe in SL if the SB won't. They will
> affirm all the bad things said about SL, IB, etc.
> if they essentially say SL is not a good enough
> school for other areas to attend.
>
> Again, if it is a good school, go forward with the
> change. If it is so bad, close it and move us
> somewhere else.

Are you saying the only way to prove SL is a "good school" is to force in families who do NOT want to be there? What about trying the approach another poster mentioned: Invite the 500 families who signed that petition to pupil place into South Lakes because they WANT to be there?

The SL group seems to have bought into an acute sense of injustice -- related to a perception that school size determines the quality of education, as coded into the "Access to programs" argument.

The anti RD group feel injustice from being forced out of a choice they made as individuals to buy homes in a specific school pyramid, into a choice made a by a group from another community.

From a libertarian perspective, the SL group chose their situation -- they bought into that community, and when IB came to that school they either embraced it or chose not to oppose it. On the other hand, the anti RD group made individual choices and were minding their own business when the first group, as a collective, began an attempt to force a change.

So does one injustice outweigh another?

I personally have nothing against SL -- there are undoubtedly many fine people there and there are plenty of high achievers both past and present. But when folks attempt to force this decision on us, they invite scrutiny of the school, its performance, and its programs. And that scrutiny shows, by any objective interpretation of the statistics, that the school marginally underperforms academically relative to its demographic peers.

I don't know whether SL needs fixing, but I do know that attracting students has got to be preferable to forcing them in. If that requires better teachers, better administrators, dropping the IB experiment, or whatever, that would be a smarter use of county resources to study than this current RD proposal.

This entire issue has rallied some of the best community spirit and involvement I have seen around here, but at the same time has also brought out some of the ugliest and cynical sides of people and politics. I don't care whether the demographics of SL are white, black, purple or green -- if it were an outperforming school I would not oppose my kids going there.

There are lots of lessons from all of this, which I hope that all involved, including the politicians, the schools, the parents and the students, can learn from. I believe that we all can grow from this. We need our leaders to make more believers, rather than cynically pitting neighbors against each other and inciting racially-charged rancor.

Tired Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris Parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > SLVerity Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> >
> > >
> > > Please understand, that almost all of those
> who
> > > oppose the RD, are not attacking South Lakes,
> > and
> > > the only time that I heard mention of "gangs,
> > > drugs, etc. regarding South Lakes, came from
> > > parents who are supporting this RD. We in
> fact
> > are
> > > very much in support of your right to enjoy
> and
> > be
> > > proud of your students, unique curriculum,
> and
> > all
> > > of the other wonderful attributes of your
> > school.
> > >
> > > Being anti RD does not equate to anti Reston.
> > We
> > > are simply pro choice, and feel, just like
> Stu
> > > Gibson did in 2003 when he stated that "the
> > people
> > > living in North Reston, do not want to go to
> > South
> > > Lakes, and they chose to live in other ares
> to
> > go
> > > to different schools. > >
> > > >
> >
> > Thanks, Floris Parent. It was an excellent
> post.
> > These sb members especially Stu need to read
> your
> > post. Also, a SL supporter spoke last night
> > talking about why redistricting should go
> through
> > and then he said if the RD doesn't go through,
> > there will be a negative thought permeated
> > throughout the SL community, what does this
> tell
> > us? That comment bothered me.
>
> Are you joking? Go back through the pages of
> comments that have put down SL and the "social
> experiment" of Reston.

I believe that Reston was a "social experiment in planning". This should not be construed as a put down, but rather some peple may not choose to live in such a planned community.
>
> As for the comment you didn't understand: if they
> stop this RD, SL will be stigmatized for a long
> time, fair or not. It already doesn't have a good
> reputation, and it will only get worse. As a
> future SL parent (kids in Hunters Woods), I will
> not believe in SL if the SB won't. They will
> affirm all the bad things said about SL, IB, etc.
> if they essentially say SL is not a good enough
> school for other areas to attend.

I am not sure why you are concerned with what others think about South Lakes, as long as "you" are happy with verything that it offers. That fact that some people choose not to attend South Lakes, does not imply that it is a bad school. Just as the fact that people who do not choose to live in Reston are not implying that Reston is a bad place to live.
>
> Again, if it is a good school, go forward with the
> change. If it is so bad, close it and move us
> somewhere else.

Do you think that the school is bad?

Thomas More Wrote:
> ... SL did not chose IB. IB was forced on SL without
> input or consultation.
>
> Whether the parents of the SL pyramid would chose
> IB is a very open question to which no one can
> claim to know the answer because those parents
> have never been asked.
>
> If the redistricting process results in a return
> of SL to AP, this SL parent, and many many others,
> would be very happy. ...
----------------------------
South Lakes and Woodson got IB at the same time, under the same policies, when they had pretty close to the same number of students. The Woodson community formed a committee formed of pro-AP, pro-IB, and neutral parents, teachers, and pupils, and, after careful and extensive evaluation, rejected IB.

Everytime parents have tried to get the same sort of evaluation going at South Lakes they have been ignored or rudely rebuffed. If you are serious, perhaps you could start such a study now, and agree to put redistricting on hold. If South Lakes had a vibrant AP program this whole discussion might very well be unneeded.

I don't mean a couple of AP courses to fill in where IB doesn't have competing, similar classes. I mean a full program to include courses in all the core subjects, i.e.:
AP Biology
AP Chemistry
AP Physics B
AAP Calculus AB
AP Calculus BC
AP Computer Science A
AP English Language & Composition
AP English Literature & Composition
AP French Language
AP Spanish Language
AP World History
AP US History
AP Comparative Government
AP US Government

Forum Reader: You are once again reconstructing what happened at Woodson and South Lakes. You and others like you who oppose (to put it nicely) IB, spread misinformation (to put it nicely) about it and worked up community of vocal and misguided opposition. Now there is a swath of people out there who are confused, misinformed, and trepidatious about IB. You've really moved the discussion along, haven't you.

IB Veritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Boy, you can dish but you opponents can't take
> it!
>
> So, when I point out the fact that some people
> don't want to go to South Lakes because of the
> heterogeneity there and the poor kids -- and the
> FACT that they freely tell me and many others so
> when the don't know whose "side" we're on -- that
> I should be ashamed? WHO should be ashamed, here?

Why do you assume that those opposed to the redistricting are Wealthy and Caucasian? Did you not watch the SB meetings over the past 2 days? Did you not notice the fact the many of these folks are from many different races and cultures? Are you assuming that none of these families are poor?

Who really has been bringing up the race and disadvataged card? Was it not South Lakes PTSA memeber Maria Allen and other SL supporters who insulted the McNair Farms community by stating that they did not want anymore poor kids in South Lakes? How racist to make such a general statement about a very nice, middle class community that has much nicer town homes and condo's that those that surround SL high school.How can you assume the McMair is full of poor kids?

> I have heard DOZENS of people say they don't like
> that "element" at South Lakes. And they've posted
> here. Now they're hiding behind a dislike of IB
> and a bunch of cherry-picked numbers. Sorry. If
> you don't believe this, then you're deaf.

Once again, anytime "facts are presented that dispute your opinions, they become "Cherry Picked". Anytime people express the desire for choice, they become racist.
>
> On the other hand, there are a great many others
> who simply don't want to change schools, nothing
> to do with the makeup of SL. But they all of a
> sudden know what's "best" for South Lakes, having
> never given it a single thought until two or three
> months ago -- except perhaps to go along with the
> rumors about it. Now they've "seen the light" and
> it's -- "Wait for invisible kids to fill 'er up."
> And "NOW that you've got a good school, everyone
> will pupil-place there." This is a bunch of
> malarky.

I do not believe that the Anti RD people have suggested solutions or fixes for South Lakes and the other IB based schools with low enrollment issues, but we do feel that the issue does warrant a better study by our School Board, before moving our children again.

After examining many questions that have arisen as a result of this RD Study I have concluded, that South Lakes and many other high schools in our County do, in fact have programmatic issues that require attention.

Here are some facts that I gathered from the FCPS Web Site:

There are 8 IB based Curriculum Schools and 17 AP based Curriculum Schools

Of the 10 Schools with the lowest enrollment of students, 6 are IB
Of the 11 Schools with the highest number ESOL students, 7 are IB
Of the 12 Schools with the highest number of FRM students, 7 are IB
Of the 11 Schools with the Highest Mobility rates, 7 are IB
Of the 7 Schools with the Lowest SAT Scores, 5 are IB

I believe that a Prudent School Board must examine the facts regarding “WHY” South Lakes and most of the other IB Schools in this County are struggling with enrollment and other social issues as compared to our AP Schools. This must be done before making any decisions on moving our children to other schools.

>
> How convenient for you to call me self-righteous,
> which you should look up. Talk about labeling. And
> who's the victim? So many parents last night are
> creating victims out of their children, filling
> their minds up with the notion that they will sink
> into depression and become psychopaths if they
> change schools. South Lakes is going to have a
> time of it helping re-educate those kids and
> helping them overcome the trepidation they've been
> filled with. But that school will welcome them.
> And those kids will discover they can survive,
> keep old friends, and make new ones, and thrive.
> And, if their parents really care about community,
> they will too.

To try and use this tactic to win your argument will never fly. All we have heard from SL RD supporters is how SL has been the victim of everything from poor admistration, lack of caring by a school board that you now seem to love. Why do you feel that it is our responsibility to change our lives and those of our children, to put bodies in South Lakes?

We did not support having two of your elementary schools located in Reston feed into Herndon HS. ( I assume this is the gerrymandering that you are referring to) The two Astronaut schools have exactly the demographics that you and the rest of the SL supporters desire, but it is very clear that these folks, many who enjoy the benifits of living in Reston,choose to attend schools other than South Lakes.
>
> South Lakes, if it is a victim of anything, is a
> victim of rampant rumormongering and School Board
> neglect. The school board has a chance to rectify
> the gerrymandering that created the
> underenrollment problem in the first place. If it
> does the right thing, that's what it will do.
>
> I don't expect you or any other redistricting
> opponents to respond to any of the legitimate
> issues raised. You'll just keep denying you're
> racists, which I never called anyone, because you
> don't have a response to the real arguments.

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> From a libertarian perspective,

Libertianism is perverted since it assumes complete and perfect information and complete and perfect freedom of choice, See below

> the SL group chose their situation

We didn't choose Bill Harper, We didn't chose Railly Rodriguez. We didn't choose IB. We hoped Bruce would be an improvement but our kids warned us he wouldn't be and our kids were right.

When we bought here 20 years ago, the SATs were among the best in the County. In 2001 SL's SATs were third in the County behind only TJ & Langley.

Stu has treated SL and Reston like dog vomit. He allowed Railly's reign of terror to go on for 7 years despite our complaints and objections.

He has refused to allow a plebicite on IB v. AP.

Because of the 1990s real estate recession, until 1996, our house was worth less than what we paid for it in 1988. By the time we had positive equity, and thus able to move, our kids had made lots of friends, including many from Shadowood and Stone Gate.

Thus, we were stuck with the unsatisfactory conditions at SL that we tried to change but to no avail.

> -- they bought into that community, and when IB came to that school they
> either embraced it or chose not to oppose it.

We opposed Bill Harper, Railly and now Bruce. We opposed IB and Stu. Some circumstances are just beyond the control of the individual and they are left to muddle through the best they can.

This is the part of the human condition that Milton Freedman and his ideological step-children among the libertarian crowd refuse to accept.

> So does one injustice outweigh another?

Yeah that's why Stu needs to be removed.

> I don't know whether SL needs fixing,

The whole of FCPS needs fixing, including SL.

> better teachers, better administrators, dropping the IB experiment, . . . .

Yes, yes and yes

> There are lots of lessons from all of this, which I hope that all involved,
> including the politicians, the schools, the parents and the students, can learn > from. I believe that we all can grow from this. We need our leaders to make
> more believers, rather than cynically pitting neighbors against each other and
> inciting racially-charged rancor.

Amen

Floris Parent Wrote:
Why
> do you feel that it is our responsibility to
> change our lives and those of our children, to put
> bodies in South Lakes?
>

It's not your responsibility. It's the school board's responsibility. That's what they're going to do.

Thomas More, wow.

You have my attention. Probably a lot of others, too.

How to fix this, and break the right eggs while doing it?

I am all for working together to recall Stu, send a loud and unified message to the SB, and start turning these critical choices back to the community. Sooner rather than later.

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More, wow.
>
> You have my attention. Probably a lot of others, too.
>
> How to fix this, and break the right eggs while doing it?
>
> I am all for working together to recall Stu, send a loud and unified message to > the SB, and start turning these critical choices back to the community. Sooner > rather than later.

There is a recall petition circulating. It probably already has all the signatures it needs but more is better. Ask around, find it and sign it.

IB Veritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> Why
> > do you feel that it is our responsibility to
> > change our lives and those of our children, to
> put
> > bodies in South Lakes?
> >
>
> It's not your responsibility. It's the school
> board's responsibility. That's what they're going
> to do.

IB, It is people like you that will cause me and many other parents to continue to oppose the RD. I really believe the somehow, you have some warped sense of entitlement, that makes you feel that it is OK for others lives to be completely changed, for you and the other SL supporters. At this point, you and others like you with biased and one sided attitudes, will make those opposed to this shameful exercise of forced change fight even harder.

In the event that the SB follows through on this RD, I am confident that those of us in Floris and fox Mill will continue to circumvent this RD in anyway possible. You may actually get some children, but I doubt that they will be the students that you seem to covet.

Thank you again for giving me the motivation to continue fighting this sham of a democratic process.

Brainwashed from Woodson Wrote:
> Forum Reader: You are once again reconstructing
> what happened at Woodson and South Lakes. You and
> others like you who oppose (to put it nicely) IB,
> spread misinformation (to put it nicely) about it ...

--------
By "reconstructing" do you mean I misstated what happened? I wrote, "South Lakes and Woodson got IB at the same time, under the same policies, when they had pretty close to the same number of students. The Woodson community formed a committee formed of pro-AP, pro-IB, and neutral parents, teachers, and pupils, and, after careful and extensive evaluation, rejected IB."

What is misleading or confusing about this?

Once again: I am NOT opposed to the IB Diploma Programme. It is a wonderful programme for about the 5-7% of students who earn it.

What I am opposed to is what it does to the other 95% of the school. I fully support an IB Diploma Candidate magnet programme - at South Lakes or elsewhere.

AP vs. IB, check your facts.

Dale proposed to completely eliminate bus service for students with base school Level 4 classes, on the theory that these classes are identical to GT Center classes. Dean Tisdadt just clarified that this proposal applies not only to elementary school students, but also to all middle school students, since FCPS staff have labelled honors classes Level 4 if a student takes them in four subjects. Dr. Dale also proposed to reduce bus service for students whose base schools did not have these Level 4 classes.

Many parents disagree with the assumption that because some FCPS bureaucrats give these classes the same label (i.e., Level 4), these classes are identical.

Interesting that you were unable to obtain the data on the percentage of students scoring 5 on the Calculus BC test. Let me help you, with some old data.

Back in 2002, GTAC members received a handout breaking out the range of scores on IB and AP tests overall in FCPS. In 2002-03, 3.5% of all FCPS IB tests had a score of 7/7, and 16.3% of all FCPS AP tests had a score of 5/5.

In 2003-04, 124 FCPS students took HL Math. Exactly 4 of these 124 students, or 3.2%, score 7/7 on the IB HL Math test that year. In 2003-04, 974 students took the AP Calculus BC exam. 394 out of the 974, or 40.5%, score 5/5.

In 2004-05, 108 FCPS students took the HL Math test, and 2 of the 108 (2%) scored 7/7. That year, 1063 FCPS students took the AP Calc BC test,and 543 out of 1063 (51%) scored 5/5.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >>
> > Another proposed cut is to eliminate
> > home-to-school buses for GT students to GT
> Centers
> > if GT services are offered in their base
> schools.
>
> My understanding is this refers to equal GT
> services, meaning level 4, not just if pull out GT
> services once a week is offered. If it is only
> pull out, and the student gets into the center
> level, they will be transported.
>
> Oh, Forum Reader, I have been unable to find data
> breaking down AP scores for the calculus class we
> discussed a short while ago.