AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You miss the point: IB does not have the
> flexibility to all students. For example, for a
> highly motivited kid strong in science and math,
> he probably has to struggle more within an IB
> school. Still uses the science-math oriented kid
> as an example, going to an IB school forces the
> kid to take courses required by IB and takes away
> *choices* for the student.


Only if the student chooses the full IB program. If students choose a few IB classes, they can focus on science and math.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For Fairfax county, the stats are more like 55% of
> students at AP schools take at least one exam, and
> 70% of them pass.
>
> Search the FCPS web site for AP, its the first
> document listed, the numbers are halfway down.

And the percentage of students passing IB tests in Fairfax is close to that. At Stuart it is 77%.

" Obviuosly though, those 3 HL classes span two years a piece, and that is admittedly different from the AP."

Not only different...but less good, since students have a fixed number of courses they can take.

I have a question. Would replacing IB with AP at South Lakes mean that most people would not be so opposed to the redistricting? Is this what is meant by the "programmatic" issues that people are talking about?

Where will the advanced math and science class coming from? If he does not want to pursue the rigorous IB diploma requirement, what other "most challenging" program is available for him? Is he forced to pursue a less rigid program and be considered less motivated at time of college admission? Why does he deserve to be deprived of such choice?

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " Obviuosly though, those 3 HL classes span two
> years a piece, and that is admittedly different
> from the AP."
>
> Not only different...but less good, since students
> have a fixed number of courses they can take.


You are right they do have a fixed number of classes. That is why I admitted that that is a drawback to IB.

I think the major issue is the issue of college credit earned. That focus is certainly more of an issue than when I was in HS. AP was started around the same time as IB. IB was started to assist students within families that traveled internationally, so that they would have a common curriculum wherever they were stationed. It was viewed as college prep.

AP was started by a few elite private/prep schools to get students ready for College. So both programs were started for a small percentage of students.

AP is certainly in thousands more schools than IB and is much more widely known and accepted.

I wish there wasn't a need for most families to hope for college credits due to financial concerns. Granted many students test out of intro courses because they aren't part of their major, or they would be bored in a 100 level course, but often the financial savings are of utmost importance.

I wish students were able to view HS as schooling in and of itself, and not a means of earning college credit. But, we have a system where students are either taking advanced courses to potentially earn college credit, and be challenged by more than the regular course offerings, or be in regular courses with students that might not be terribly motivated academically.

Unfortunately families have to pupil place if they have a preference for either AP or IB. IB schools do seem to have more restrictions on electives (not as many offerings).

With the budget cuts coming up conceivably IB schools will be harder hit..the full diploma's worth of tests will impact families, especially with the fees for extracurricular activities on top of the test fees. (due to the CAS aspect most IB students achieve a chunk of their activity aspect via after school offerings). And, we all know IB is only at the schools with the most economically challenged students (in comparison to AP schools stats).

So if he doesn't want to pursue humanities heavy IB program, he has to accept the less competitive program. becoming inferior to his AP peers, without giving a chance?

"Only if the student chooses the full IB program. If students choose a few IB
classes, they can focus on science and math."

AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where will the advanced math and science class
> coming from? If he does not want to pursue the
> rigorous IB diploma requirement, what other "most
> challenging" program is available for him? Is he
> forced to pursue a less rigid program and be
> considered less motivated at time of college
> admission? Why does he deserve to be deprived of
> such choice?


He would simply take the IB offerings in science and math. IB Physics, IB chemistry, IB biology...just like he could choose AP physics, AP biology and AP chemistry if all three are offered. For math the same thing, HL Math is equal to AP Calculus BC.

College admissions offices don't view a student as less motivated in this case. They would easily determine through the transcript that the kid is interested in science and math, just as they would the AP student who focused on math and science and didn't take any AP English or AP history courses.

100 page back, there were sincere questions asked about possiblity of turning SL to AP, that was vigourly shot down by SL supporters, and it seems that either my way or the highway. It looks like it's next to impossible.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a question. Would replacing IB with AP at
> South Lakes mean that most people would not be so
> opposed to the redistricting? Is this what is
> meant by the "programmatic" issues that people are
> talking about?

AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So if he doesn't want to pursue humanities heavy
> IB program, he has to accept the less competitive
> program. becoming inferior to his AP peers,
> without giving a chance?
>
> "Only if the student chooses the full IB program.
> If students choose a few IB
> classes, they can focus on science and math."


No, he would be viewed in the same manner as an AP student who focused on science and math.

AP,
I know kids who have graduated from SL with a smattering of IB courses (I think most college prep kids are in that category, just like at AP schools will take a smattering of AP courses). They have gotten course credits, gotten into great schools, etc. The higher level math and science IB courses are comparable to AP. Not sure what the beef is.

Are you really planning on your kid placing out of a lot of college classes? Really really? I don't know many people that really stress about this, from SL and surrounding schools. I want my kids to have a life, not do college while still in high school, and I guess they do too.

I guess I'd really like to understand why people are so stressed about AP vs. IB, or is it really that they have latched onto that as the issue and made a much bigger deal about it than it is in reality, when the real issue is that they just don't want to come to SL.

So, my last question is still unanswered: Would replacing IB with AP at South Lakes mean that most people would not be so opposed to the redistricting? Is this what is meant by "programmatic" issues?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2008 02:23PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

I hope you are the admissions officer, as courses for Higher Level Math do not get the same level of college credit as AP.
VT gives NO CREDIT for IB HL Math unless the student is a diploma recipient.
UVA Engineering gives no credit for IB Math.
Both schools accept AP Calculus AB and BC for any student.

Also, HL IB courses span two years prior to testing. This limits the number of HL science exams a student may take.


>
> College admissions offices don't view a student as
> less motivated in this case. They would easily
> determine through the transcript that the kid is
> interested in science and math, just as they would
> the AP student who focused on math and science and
> didn't take any AP English or AP history courses.

Is South Lakes willing to the switch? Otherwise, what's the point discussing something not going to happen?

"So, my last question is still unanswered: Would replacing IB with AP at South Lakes mean that most people would not be so opposed to the redistricting?"

AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 100 page back, there were sincere questions asked
> about possiblity of turning SL to AP, that was
> vigourly shot down by SL supporters, and it seems
> that either my way or the highway. It looks like
> it's next to impossible.
>
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have a question. Would replacing IB with AP
> at
> > South Lakes mean that most people would not be
> so
> > opposed to the redistricting? Is this what is
> > meant by the "programmatic" issues that people
> are
> > talking about?


AP, so then the answer to my question is yes? People would accept the redistricting for next year if AP was at SL?

It's because of the flexibility of AP. Flexibility equals choice, ajustment along the way. AP is not great promise or something a lot better, its loose structure offers more possiblities, changes, etc. Taking one more or one less class in 9th or 10th grade, doesn't affect the course selections 2 years down the road.

"I guess I'd really like to understand why people are so stressed about AP vs. IB, or is it really that they have latched onto that as the issue and made a much bigger deal about it than it is in reality, when the real issue is that they just don't want to come to SL. "

AP,
I am in no position to say what program is at SL. I think the opinion on IB among SL parents is not monolithic. As with every other group, there are many different opinions. However, I personally have found out enough about IB to not be stressed about it either way.

But, you still didn't answer the question!!!

AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope you are the admissions officer, as courses
> for Higher Level Math do not get the same level of
> college credit as AP.
> VT gives NO CREDIT for IB HL Math unless the
> student is a diploma recipient.
> UVA Engineering gives no credit for IB Math.
> Both schools accept AP Calculus AB and BC for any
> student.
>
> Also, HL IB courses span two years prior to
> testing. This limits the number of HL science
> exams a student may take.
>
>
> >
> > College admissions offices don't view a student
> as
> > less motivated in this case. They would easily
> > determine through the transcript that the kid
> is
> > interested in science and math, just as they
> would
> > the AP student who focused on math and science
> and
> > didn't take any AP English or AP history

courses.

I was focusing on Admissions in this scenario. I didn't know about the differences in specific credit at Tech. I did know that AP students can earn a max of 38 credits there, and IB diploma students can earn 38 credits as well.

The college credit issue for the specific courses you mention is another issue. That would certainly be important for some students/families. However, even if the school accepts credit, some majors might not. (I realize you said regardless of major the AP calculus course is accepted, but that is not true for all courses/scores. Many majors have restrictions on what they accept, even if the college itself says credit can be earned).

I have though read recently of a student who essentially started as a sophomore in engineering. He is now applying to graduate school, and the graduate schools are not recognizing credit earned via AP exam scores. So..yet another issue.

I've heard the colleges are starting to question giving all those credits for AP. One issue is that it is getting watered down, as evidenced by the fact that many sophomores are taking them now (this used to be pretty unheard of). The other issue is that colleges are starting to realize all of the money they are losing.

So, issues related to college credit may eventually become moot.

I should say, though, that I like the idea of my kids being good writers, as is stressed in IB. I have one kid who is very strong in writing and another who is not. I think both will benefit greatly with IB. Actually, the one who is not as strong is now getting high As in her GT English class. All that writing practice does help. And in my opinion, writing is going to become an ever more critical skill, even for engineers. I'm an engineer and writing is one of my job requirements. I would go further to say that the people that make it to the highest level of my organization is not because they are math/science nerds. They are well rounded technical people that can communicate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2008 02:47PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

"So, my last question is still unanswered: Would replacing IB with AP at South Lakes mean that most people would not be so opposed to the redistricting?"

While it hard to speak for everyone or even most people, I would certainly think that this one change would be very well received by people coming to South Lakes, both from a standpoint that the AP program meets their needs better, as well as the idea that South Lakes is committed to offering mainstream programs, vs. being different for obscure reasons.

Just my personal opinion:

If that's the case, I will consider sending my kids there. I am pretty confident that with our kids there, they will help SL competitive to other High Schools in this area.

The question is, will SL willing to get rid IB and replace it with AP?

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a question. Would replacing IB with AP at
> South Lakes mean that most people would not be so
> opposed to the redistricting? Is this what is
> meant by the "programmatic" issues that people are
> talking about?

"I've heard the colleges are starting to question giving all those credits for AP. One issue is that it is getting watered down, as evidenced by the fact that many sophomores are taking them now (this used to be pretty unheard of). The other issue is that colleges are starting to realize all of the money they are losing.

So, issues related to college credit may eventually become moot."

For what its worth, this statement tends to come from people who favor IB for whatever reason (perhaps because its at their school?) and are looking for a way to counter AP's advantage in this area. For the vast majority of colleges and the vast majority of AP classes, there is very little chance that there will be any meaningful change in this regard. At Harvard, perhaps, but that's not relevant to 99.9% of the kids in fcps.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "So, my last question is still unanswered: Would
> replacing IB with AP at South Lakes mean that most
> people would not be so opposed to the
> redistricting?"
>
> While it hard to speak for everyone or even most
> people, I would certainly think that this one
> change would be very well received by people
> coming to South Lakes, both from a standpoint that
> the AP program meets their needs better, as well
> as the idea that South Lakes is committed to
> offering mainstream programs, vs. being different
> for obscure reasons.

Mainstream program versus being different for obscure reasons certainly spells out your preference:-)

One thing I neglected to add when I discussed the origins of both AP and IB, is that the IBO wanted to create a program for the "well rounded" student, and thus they made the focus be the diploma, where a student has advanced courses in all academic areas. The college board while also creating a "program" for advanced course work in HS wasn't looking for a well rounded student. Not that someone couldn't become well rounded through AP courses in all subjects, just letting you know a little more about the origins...what you might term "being different for obscure reasons."

That being said, certainly if the majority prefer AP I would hope that would be listened to.

I don't know if the message is coming through, to SL or to the SB, that AP is the real sticking point. People are talking about so many other side issues, it's hard to know what the real issues are anymore.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I've heard the colleges are starting to question
> giving all those credits for AP. One issue is that
> it is getting watered down, as evidenced by the
> fact that many sophomores are taking them now
> (this used to be pretty unheard of). The other
> issue is that colleges are starting to realize all
> of the money they are losing.
>
> So, issues related to college credit may
> eventually become moot."
>
> For what its worth, this statement tends to come
> from people who favor IB for whatever reason
> (perhaps because its at their school?) and are
> looking for a way to counter AP's advantage in
> this area.

This doesn't necessarily make the statement untrue, does it?

For the vast majority of colleges and
> the vast majority of AP classes, there is very
> little chance that there will be any meaningful
> change in this regard. At Harvard, perhaps, but
> that's not relevant to 99.9% of the kids in fcps.


Well, we just heard an example from AP vs IB that credit IS becoming an issue. Do you have evidence to back up your statement, or is this just your opinion?

SLPP -

The core issue of the "Programmatic" statement made by CAPS and other groups is that based on the data, there should be more students already in South Lakes. If you track through elementary schools, census data, etc. The discrepancy in the number of students that could possibly attend vs. those actually in attendance is alarming.

So, to simply suggest Changing from IB back to AP as a solution, as great as it would be for those who prefer AP, it STILL NEGLECTS performing the research as to why the students don't attend SLHS who could/should be there. In particular, looking at the numbers, you would see that the Free and Reduced Lunch numbers are relatively stable (raw numbers), but the Non-Free and Reduced are what has dropped in recent years. Where are those students going?

The first action to be to find and stop the bleeding - this may mean proposing a switch to AP and thus increasing the flexibility in the schedule to support more of the student population - and thus increase the yield of possible students attending from within the borders, or it may be a different reason.

The fact is that FCPS appointed a FACILITIES (i.e. they're in charge of the buildings and infrastructure and have nothing to do with academics) team to the issue and they are making the only recommendations they can - shifting boundaries and students. We believe that you are then only treating the symptom and the bleeding will continue.

So, in summary - if the shift is based on research and data performed by the schools and desired by the parents, then it could be successful. If not, SLHS could remain under enrolled into the future. What's pretty amazing is that addressing the root cause could lead to a student body near capacity without changing a single boundary.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 100 page back, there were sincere questions
> asked
> > about possiblity of turning SL to AP, that was
> > vigourly shot down by SL supporters, and it
> seems
> > that either my way or the highway. It looks
> like
> > it's next to impossible.
> >
> > South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I have a question. Would replacing IB with
> AP
> > at
> > > South Lakes mean that most people would not
> be
> > so
> > > opposed to the redistricting? Is this what
> is
> > > meant by the "programmatic" issues that
> people
> > are
> > > talking about?
>
>
> AP, so then the answer to my question is yes?
> People would accept the redistricting for next
> year if AP was at SL?

IB vs AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many have stated that one of the main issues
> against the redistricting is IB. Many have said
> that only around 8% of the student population
> receive the full IB diploma (meaning a passing
> score of at least 4 on 6 IB exams, C.A.S equal to
> 150 hours, TOK class, with passing marks, and the
> Extended Essay with passing marks).
>
> Many students of course pursue some IB classes and
> not the full diploma.
>
> According to the College Board, 15% of all
> students in the nation, take and receive a passing
> score of at least 3 on 1 AP test. (look at their
> summary reports) A much lower percentage of AP
> students therefor take 6-8 AP exams and earn
> passing scores on all..which would conceivably
> equal to the full IB diploma stats.
>
> In other words, the percentages of students
> benefitting from either AP or IB is roughly equal.
>
>
> All FCPS families should be advocating to bring
> back honors courses at the junior and senior
> grades. That would benefit the majority of
> students who won't take 6-8 AP courses or the full
> IB diploma.
-------------
Your logic is flawed. "15% of all students IN THE NATION, take and receive a passing score of at least 3 on 1 AP test.." To compare apples to apples, what percentage of students IN THE NATION take and receive a passing score of at least 4 on 1 High Level IB exam?

Within FCPS, look at Woodson, the school which was given IB the same year as South Lakes. Back in fall of 1999 South Lakes had 1657 students and Woodson had 1652 students. That same fall of 1999 the Woodson community carefully examined both programs and decided to reject IB. (Students in the IB programme were grandfathered so Woodson had two years of IB Diploma grads).

Fast forward to June 2007. Both schools are in mid-renovation so it is not a factor and these two schools are as close as I can find in comparisons.

But by June of 2007 South Lakes had dropped to 1413 students (with 308 seniors and 195 Spec Ed students) while Woodson had grown to 2116 students (with 414 seniors with 204 Spec Ed PLUS another hundred or so in the largest Spec Ed center in the County). The South Lakes IB programme had 45 IB Diploma Graduates. With a graduating class about one third larger than South Lakes, Woodson had 286 students who earned grades of 3 or higher on three or more AP Exams. This included SEVEN "National AP Scholars" (average grade of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 4 or higher on eight or more of these exams), 53 "AP Scholars with Distinction" (average grade of at least 3.5 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on five or more of these exams) and 60 "AP Scholars with Honor" (average grade of at least 3.25 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on four or more of these exams).

Future Seahawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLPP -
>
> The core issue of the "Programmatic" statement
> made by CAPS and other groups is that based on the
> data, there should be more students already in
> South Lakes. If you track through elementary
> schools, census data, etc. The discrepancy in the
> number of students that could possibly attend vs.
> those actually in attendance is alarming.
>
> So, to simply suggest Changing from IB back to AP
> as a solution, as great as it would be for those
> who prefer AP, it STILL NEGLECTS performing the
> research as to why the students don't attend SLHS
> who could/should be there. In particular, looking
> at the numbers, you would see that the Free and
> Reduced Lunch numbers are relatively stable (raw
> numbers), but the Non-Free and Reduced are what
> has dropped in recent years. Where are those
> students going?
>
> The first action to be to find and stop the
> bleeding - this may mean proposing a switch to AP
> and thus increasing the flexibility in the
> schedule to support more of the student population
> - and thus increase the yield of possible students
> attending from within the borders, or it may be a
> different reason.
>
> The fact is that FCPS appointed a FACILITIES (i.e.
> they're in charge of the buildings and
> infrastructure and have nothing to do with
> academics) team to the issue and they are making
> the only recommendations they can - shifting
> boundaries and students. We believe that you are
> then only treating the symptom and the bleeding
> will continue.
>
> So, in summary - if the shift is based on research
> and data performed by the schools and desired by
> the parents, then it could be successful. If not,
> SLHS could remain under enrolled into the future.
> What's pretty amazing is that addressing the root
> cause could lead to a student body near capacity
> without changing a single boundary.
>

So, is the answer to my question yes?

Otherwise, I think you are assuming a lot to say that CAPS is correct--the "root cause" is merely their conjecture and that all will be fixed (in five, ten years?) without a boundary change. What about in the mean time? I guess we should all believe that their pretty superficial analysis explains all?

All high schools in the area are projected to decline in population. This is not just an SL issue. The past decline at SL might be accounted for by a combination of IB and the previous SL administration. Or it might be that the neighborhoods in South Reston are merely older than those at Westfield, Fox Mill, which were built out later, and thus the demographics are different. It all goes in cycles. I know many older people in my neighborhood whose kids are grown and they have no plans to move--they like it where they are.

It might also be the fact that we now have at least a few magnets (Hunters Woods, Hughes GT) that siphon off kids back to their base high schools. Are you accounting for that?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2008 03:20PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

I'll state it simply. If a patient is bleeding, no matter how much blood you pump into him, he will die if you do not stop the bleeding.

Throwing more bodies does nothing to identify and address why other small schools can be successful at their numbers and other larger schools struggle.

So, the answer is NO - merely making the change if it is not well informed will not make me feel good about sending my child to South Lakes.



South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> So, is the answer to my question yes?
>
> Otherwise, I think you are assuming a lot to say
> that CAPS is correct--the "root cause" is merely
> their conjecture and that all will be fixed (in
> five, ten years?) without a boundary change. What
> about in the mean time? I guess we should all
> believe that their pretty superficial analysis
> explains all?
>
> All high schools in the area are projected to
> decline in population. This is not just an SL
> issue. The past decline at SL might be accounted
> for by a combination of IB and the previous SL
> administration. Or it might be that the
> neighborhoods in South Reston are merely older
> than those at Westfield, Fox Mill, which were
> built out later, and thus the demographics are
> different. It all goes in cycles. I know many
> older people in my neighborhood whose kids are
> grown and they have no plans to move--they like it
> where they are.

SLPP - the answer is to clean up your own house before inviting others in. Find out why so many 9, 10, 11, 12th graders that currently live in your neighborhood and are supposed to be at South Lakes have found it necessary to opt-out of South Lakes. Or, ignore the problem and watch as those in Fox Mill and Floris do the same and opt-out as well.

Stop with the aging neighborhood bs! This is getting more and more ridiculous as you cast around for ways to defend a school that has lost over 400 kids that should be attending SL now. Fix the problems that exist, instead of making up excuses about why your own students won't attend your school. You should see my parents' neighborhood in McLean, it's as old as the hills and all the neighbors are in their seventies and eighties - when's the last time you heard that McLean HS was losing a bunch of their own students due to aging?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>>
> Fast forward to June 2007. Both schools are in
> mid-renovation so it is not a factor and these two
> schools are as close as I can find in comparisons.
>
>
> But by June of 2007 South Lakes had dropped to
> 1413 students (with 308 seniors and 195 Spec Ed
> students) while Woodson had grown to 2116 students
> (with 414 seniors with 204 Spec Ed PLUS another
> hundred or so in the largest Spec Ed center in the
> County). The South Lakes IB programme had 45 IB
> Diploma Graduates. With a graduating class about
> one third larger than South Lakes, Woodson had 286
> students who earned grades of 3 or higher on three
> or more AP Exams.

Interesting points ... one important issue that you have left and needs to be factored in is that during the time period that SL had a drop in students it had a horrible principal - I believe this had a far greater impact than any IB program did.

I also have a thought on the aging issue - it would be interesting to see the breakout of home owners vs. renters attending SL. Those that own homes are more likely to stay, even after their children have grown (as is the case on my block), while renters have a higher turnover and will be replaced with new families. It may not explain all the differance, but could account for some of the decline at SL.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> .. we all
> know IB is only at the schools with the most
> economically challenged students (in comparison to
> AP schools stats).

Three modifications:
1) In most of the rest of the world IB is an elite programme at elite schools.

2) In FCPS, Falls Church and West Potomac are AP schools and have a higher than average percentage of "economically challenged students."

3) On the IB side, Robinson is the exception. Robinson is also one of the largest if not the largest IB school in the world - and it STILL has only six AP courses, none of them in science.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB vs AP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Many have stated that one of the main issues
> > against the redistricting is IB. Many have
> said
> > that only around 8% of the student population
> > receive the full IB diploma (meaning a passing
> > score of at least 4 on 6 IB exams, C.A.S equal
> to
> > 150 hours, TOK class, with passing marks, and
> the
> > Extended Essay with passing marks).
> >
> > Many students of course pursue some IB classes
> and
> > not the full diploma.
> >
> > According to the College Board, 15% of all
> > students in the nation, take and receive a
> passing
> > score of at least 3 on 1 AP test. (look at
> their
> > summary reports) A much lower percentage of AP
> > students therefor take 6-8 AP exams and earn
> > passing scores on all..which would conceivably
> > equal to the full IB diploma stats.
> >
> > In other words, the percentages of students
> > benefitting from either AP or IB is roughly
> equal.
> >
> >
> > All FCPS families should be advocating to bring
> > back honors courses at the junior and senior
> > grades. That would benefit the majority of
> > students who won't take 6-8 AP courses or the
> full
> > IB diploma.
> -------------
> Your logic is flawed. "15% of all students IN THE
> NATION, take and receive a passing score of at
> least 3 on 1 AP test.." To compare apples to
> apples, what percentage of students IN THE NATION
> take and receive a passing score of at least 4 on
> 1 High Level IB exam?
>
> Within FCPS, look at Woodson, the school which was
> given IB the same year as South Lakes. Back in
> fall of 1999 South Lakes had 1657 students and
> Woodson had 1652 students. That same fall of 1999
> the Woodson community carefully examined both
> programs and decided to reject IB. (Students in
> the IB programme were grandfathered so Woodson had
> two years of IB Diploma grads).
>
> Fast forward to June 2007. Both schools are in
> mid-renovation so it is not a factor and these two
> schools are as close as I can find in comparisons.
>
>
> But by June of 2007 South Lakes had dropped to
> 1413 students (with 308 seniors and 195 Spec Ed
> students) while Woodson had grown to 2116 students
> (with 414 seniors with 204 Spec Ed PLUS another
> hundred or so in the largest Spec Ed center in the
> County). The South Lakes IB programme had 45 IB
> Diploma Graduates. With a graduating class about
> one third larger than South Lakes, Woodson had 286
> students who earned grades of 3 or higher on three
> or more AP Exams. This included SEVEN "National AP
> Scholars" (average grade of at least 4 on all AP
> Exams taken, and grades of 4 or higher on eight or
> more of these exams), 53 "AP Scholars with
> Distinction" (average grade of at least 3.5 on all
> AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on five
> or more of these exams) and 60 "AP Scholars with
> Honor" (average grade of at least 3.25 on all AP
> Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on four or
> more of these exams).


The stats regarding IB in the nation show that the passing rate is very similar to AP. The schools that offer IB have passing rates similar to the schools that offer AP, per exam. Which proves the point that nationally these programs serve a small percentage of students overall.

I actually taught at Woodson and am quite familiar with it. I taught there post IB. I feel both AP and IB have pros and cons.

My initial point is I believe we do a disservice to the majority of our students when we no longer offer honors courses.

In addition...comparing South Lakes to Woodson is rather silly. The demographics alone mean you can't compare. Most research shows that the zipcode, i.e family income, equates with test scores. The better the zip code/average income the higher the score. Many people pupil place into Woodson, and that includes a number of staff members.

I was tempted to pupil place my children there, however they were not interested due to being far from neighborhood friends (further than being at a neighboring/border school).

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > .. we all
> > know IB is only at the schools with the most
> > economically challenged students (in comparison
> to
> > AP schools stats).
>
> Three modifications:
> 1) In most of the rest of the world IB is an elite
> programme at elite schools.
>
> 2) In FCPS, Falls Church and West Potomac are AP
> schools and have a higher than average percentage
> of "economically challenged students."
>
> 3) On the IB side, Robinson is the exception.
> Robinson is also one of the largest if not the
> largest IB school in the world - and it STILL has
> only six AP courses, none of them in science.

Point taken for your points 2 and 3. The first statement might not be true, as I have read elsewhere that IBO is targeting schools with economically challenged students to foster challenging courses in those schools.

APorIBMom Wrote:
> AP vs. IB, Your suggestion about bringing back
> honors courses for juniors and seniors makes lots
> of sense. Ann Monday, the former Assistant
> Superintendent for Instructional Services, was
> quoted in the Washington Post Fairfax Extra a
> couple of years ago stating that "research shows
> that" it's best to have only two levels, which is
> supposedly why FCPS eliminated that third and
> middle level.
>
> I've never seen any research along these lines,
> and suspect that it doesn't exist. Meanwhile,
> parents and students have been asking for years to
> have those honors (middle level) courses
> reinstated. Daniel DeVise wrote an article in the
> Post December 12, 2004 about this issue, quoting
> parents and students about how classes are either
> advanced or remedial, and the middle was "being
> squeezed out."
>
> The national percentage of students taking AP
> classes is far lower than the percentage of FCPS
> students taking AP classes. My guess is that half
> or more the students in AP schools take and pass
> at least one AP course during high school, but I'm
> sure somebody else can find recent data and post
> it.
-----------
FCPS is getting worse, not better.

You AP parents out there - please take a look at next year's courses. Are your high schools' Honors English and Social Studies GONE even for ninth and tenth graders, and being replaced by "Pre-AP English 9" and the like?

Good grief! How many current eighth graders want to sign up for "Pre-AP English" even if they do have a faint idea they might take AP English as seniors?

Colleges all know about what Honors courses are, and FCPS still has them in math and science, at least for next year. Why get rid of/change the name of Honors English and social studies?

IB schools do offer honors classes, 9th through 12th grade. They're called "pre-IB" or standard-level IB classes. In fact, you can take AP tests after some of the SL classes, if you want to. General Ed is also offered. (The courses so many here derisively call "remedial.")

As for this two-year business -- For all core AP science courses, you have to take a precursor. You're not supposed to jump right into AP Chem without taking a previous chemistry class. Ergo, you have to take TWO years of "AP" science -- or math, for that matter. You can't jump into AP English without taking a prerequisite English class -- you have to have fundamentals in English before you can take it. Therefore, your AP English is actually TWO YEARS of English. And so on.

Why is that so hard to get?

And why do people keep saying that IB math and science are not as rigorous as AP (which is plain untrue), yet they moan that IB is "too rigorous" for "most" kids? Which is it, folks? (And for God's sake, quit talking about the diploma already! We're talking about taking plain old individual courses here, just like AP/honors/gen ed in any other school.)

And why are parents so quick to kill their kids' potential in writing and analysis? "My BOY can't write." This is sexist, just like "My GIRL can't do math." IB teaches kids to write. What a concept!

And I'm getting very tired of a couple of people here pounding away on the "colleges don't give credit." There is now so much contradictory information about this on the thread that anyone who really cares had better get themselves to the websites of the colleges they worry about. MIT gives 12 credits for a 7 in HL IB Math and 12 credits for a 5 in BC Calculus. You'd think they'd know something about math, huh?

AP vs IB Wrote:
> My initial point is I believe we do a disservice
> to the majority of our students when we no longer
> offer honors courses.
>
> ...comparing South Lakes to Woodson is
> rather silly. The demographics alone mean you
> can't compare. ... Many people pupil place into
> Woodson, and that includes a number of staff
> members.
>
> I was tempted to pupil place my children there,
> however they were not interested due to being far
> from neighborhood friends (further than being at a
> neighboring/border school).

Please see my above post about AP schools possibly losing, or at least re-naming, all Honors English and social studies courses next year. What can we do to stop this? Your comments about this from a teaching prospective are more than welcome.

On this thread I have repeatedly compared South Lakes to Stuart, a far more diverse and economically-challenged school. At Stuart IB seems to be working without trying to change boundaries to bring in more "advantaged" students.

Please tell us your opinion as to WHY so "many people pupil place into Woodson, and that includes a number of staff members" and why the same thing is not happening at South Lakes.

And thank you for your comment that you were "tempted to pupil place my children there, however they were not interested due to being far from neighborhood friends." Some posters on this thread just do not understand that many of us and our children simply WANT to stay where we are.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> It might also be the fact that we now have at
> least a few magnets (Hunters Woods, Hughes GT)
> that siphon off kids back to their base high
> schools. Are you accounting for that?


Not just a few -- I think it's more magnets than any other high school pyramid. Forest Edge, Lake Anne, Sunrise Valley and Hunters Woods and Hughes all have their numbers inflated with students whose high school is not South Lakes. All levels of public school in South Reston have low base populations. Terraset has less than 400 students from K-6.

They did have an exodus, of 100 students, when Shadowood went from subsidized housing to condominiums.

With such small feeder school populations, it is no wonder that South Lakes is underenrolled.

The flaw of the below statement is the population of school aged population is not calculated based on elementary school enrollment. It has nothing to do where a kid's base school is.

"Not just a few -- I think it's more magnets than any other high school pyramid. Forest Edge, Lake Anne, Sunrise Valley and Hunters Woods and Hughes all have their numbers inflated with students whose high school is not South Lakes. All levels of public school in South Reston have low base populations. Terraset has less than 400 students from K-6.

They did have an exodus, of 100 students, when Shadowood went from subsidized housing to condominiums.

With such small feeder school populations, it is no wonder that South Lakes is underenrolled."

AP vs. IB writes:

"Mainstream program versus being different for obscure reasons certainly spells out your preference:-)"

I was trying to be correct. AP is in 14,000 US high schools or thereabouts, vs. 500 for IB. That sounds like AP is mainstream and IB is different, by a 28:1 ratio.

Even in FCPS, its more than 2:1 AP, so again that seems to support mainsteam.

I wasn't saying IB is obscure, just that there is no particular reason that South Lakes offers IB...its not a home to a lot of diplomatic child students any more so than Langley or McLean. Thus the reasons for offering it are obscure.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > My initial point is I believe we do a
> disservice
> > to the majority of our students when we no
> longer
> > offer honors courses.
> >
> > ...comparing South Lakes to Woodson is
> > rather silly. The demographics alone mean you
> > can't compare. ... Many people pupil place into
> > Woodson, and that includes a number of staff
> > members.
> >
> > I was tempted to pupil place my children there,
> > however they were not interested due to being
> far
> > from neighborhood friends (further than being at
> a
> > neighboring/border school).
>
> Please see my above post about AP schools possibly
> losing, or at least re-naming, all Honors English
> and social studies courses next year. What can we
> do to stop this? Your comments about this from a
> teaching prospective are more than welcome.
>
> On this thread I have repeatedly compared South
> Lakes to Stuart, a far more diverse and
> economically-challenged school. At Stuart IB seems
> to be working without trying to change boundaries
> to bring in more "advantaged" students.
>
> Please tell us your opinion as to WHY so "many
> people pupil place into Woodson, and that includes
> a number of staff members" and why the same thing
> is not happening at South Lakes.
>
> And thank you for your comment that you were
> "tempted to pupil place my children there, however
> they were not interested due to being far from
> neighborhood friends." Some posters on this thread
> just do not understand that many of us and our
> children simply WANT to stay where we are.

Regarding the re-naming, it is interesting and I hadn't heard that. I had heard that IBO was asking IB schools to no longer name their 9th and 10th grade courses pre-IB, and instead name them honors. This is due to the fact that IBO has nothing to do with 9th and 10th grade (unless they are part of an MYP program, and apparently even then they don't want the courses named pre-IB).

The county overall would do itself a favor by calling those courses honors, so at least there would be one commonality amongst its schools, whether AP or IB for 9th and 10th grade students.

Regarding Stuart, that is actually where my children are. I don't know why there are differences between Stuart and South Lakes.

Regarding Woodson, I think it is perception. The testing stats/AP stats are wonderful. The disadvantage is getting onto teams at Woodson is much more difficult. Friends of mine that I taught with that did pupil place their children were in neighborhoods that fed into Lee and Falls Church. They felt those schools weren't as good. They did question why I didn't pupil place, but I truly left it up to my children..though I did read up on IB, since I wasn't familiar with it when they first entered HS.

I will say the guidance department at Stuart is incredible. Issues are handled quickly, and nicely. Access is easy. At larger schools, including Woodson, that isn't always the case. I am not saying the guidance department wasn't good at Woodson, far from it, but they seemingly had far more students to deal with than at Stuart.

My point is there are advantages to small schools like Stuart, and conceivably those advantages would be found at South Lakes as well. If your kid likes a particular sport, but isn't likely to make the team at a larger/more competitive school, they can easily be on the team at a smaller school, and get to appreciate that aspect of HS life.

Have to run to pick up said children from debate and track.

Oh, and by issues that the guidance department handles nicely, I am not referring to emotional etc., though that could prove true as well. I am referring to things like getting last minute transcripts out, schedule adjustments etc.

IB Veritas gets a bit testy and opines:

"As for this two-year business -- For all core AP science courses, you have to take a precursor. You're not supposed to jump right into AP Chem without taking a previous chemistry class. Ergo, you have to take TWO years of "AP" science -- or math, for that matter. You can't jump into AP English without taking a prerequisite English class -- you have to have fundamentals in English before you can take it. Therefore, your AP English is actually TWO YEARS of English. And so on.

Why is that so hard to get?"

Not all AP classes have prerequisites, and the ones that do, in some cases can have the prerequisites satisfied by required courses that can be taken in sophomore or even freshman year. Whereas HL courses have SL courses as prerequisites, typically taken in the junior year, as you certainly know.

What is that so hard to get?

And furthermore, Ms. Veritas (I'll assume its Ms...) goes on to say:

"And I'm getting very tired of a couple of people here pounding away on the "colleges don't give credit." There is now so much contradictory information about this on the thread that anyone who really cares had better get themselves to the websites of the colleges they worry about. MIT gives 12 credits for a 7 in HL IB Math and 12 credits for a 5 in BC Calculus. You'd think they'd know something about math, huh?"

Isn't that a drawback in an of itself, that even a biased zealot like yourself can't consistently describe a college's policy for accepting IB test, and refers people to a college web site? What if your son or daughter hasn't yet chosen a college, or, as is certainly the case for most students in high school, the college hasn't admitted them?

My son is taking an AP history class as a sophomore, with the knowledge that it is highly likely that, with a passing test grade, he will not have to sit through another college history survey course, but can focus on things of more specific interest to him. Go aheadh, show me how an IB-only school would do that for me.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> ... Regarding Stuart, that is actually where my
> children are. I don't know why there are
> differences between Stuart and South Lakes. ...
>
> I will say the guidance department at Stuart is
> incredible. Issues are handled quickly, and
> nicely. Access is easy. ...
>
> My point is there are advantages to small schools
> like Stuart, and conceivably those advantages
> would be found at South Lakes as well. If your
> kid likes a particular sport, but isn't likely to
> make the team at a larger/more competitive school,
> they can easily be on the team at a smaller
> school, and get to appreciate that aspect of HS
> life....
>
----
Thank you again. You bring a refreshing perspective. I recommend those pushing for this redistricting consider your remarks both in regards to staying at your current school and the advantages of a smaller high school.

With all of the discussions on AP VS IB, I was curious how all of the FCPS's would stack up when ranked by things like Curriculum, FRM, ESOL, Enrollments, SAT's, Mobility Rates etc. I have used the current information that is published on FCPS sites to gather the information. I am not making a guess on what the Stats indicate, but it is interesting to see the rankings.
Attachments:

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \
> My son is taking an AP history class as a
> sophomore, with the knowledge that it is highly
> likely that, with a passing test grade, he will
> not have to sit through another college history
> survey course, but can focus on things of more
> specific interest to him. Go aheadh, show me how
> an IB-only school would do that for me.

Uh -- for YOU, or for HIM? (Freudian slip, there.)

How delightful that he can take a college-level course in his second year of high school and skip history the rest of his high school career. You don't say which history course that was, but he could take IB History of the Americas and the AP test after that.

I was not comparing all the AP courses -- just the core ones that compare with IB. And the ones parents here constantly kvetch about -- mainly science and math.

Once a school like South Lakes gets a critical mass of kids, it can offer those other courses like AP English Literature or various others. No school can offer much of any high level coursework with only 900 or so general ed students, many of whom did not get the preparatory work for them (though that gap is closing at SLHS). And no school offers all available AP anything.

Schools provide high level courses based on many factors, including enrollment, available teachers, their skill and training levels, and interest/ability in the student body. SL scores high on skilled/trained teachers and on interest of students. It is disadvantaged in available teachers, enrollment, and overall ability levels (33% FRM poses challenges). More students from nearby schools -- voila -- more teachers, higher enrollment, higher ability = more courses for EVERYONE.

Your son, if he were in 8th grade now and came to South Lakes next year, would have an outstanding education in a warm and nurturing environment. He'd have nearly all the same 9th-grade choices his peers do at other schools (absent some electives) and the same flexibility in scheduling because he'd be with 450 of his peers. And the next year, because he'd be with a cohort of 450 students, he'd have nearly if not all the same kinds of choices in 10th grade, plus a bunch more electives. And even more the next, while his sibling, entering in 9th grade in two years, would have all those electives and other choices as well, right from the start.

IB Veritas Wrote:
> ... MIT
> gives 12 credits for a 7 in HL IB Math and 12
> credits for a 5 in BC Calculus. ...

According to "Fairfax County Public Schools IB Exam Scores by Level and Subject 2006-2007 Table 2" (Source: IT/EIS/DS - 09/14/07) [http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=707] exactly ONE FCPS student in the entire County scored a seven in HL IB Math.

NO student, not one, in the entire FCPS system scored a seven in HL Biology, Chemistry, OR Physics.

IB Veritas Wrote:
> More students from
> nearby schools -- voila -- more teachers, higher
> enrollment, higher ability = more courses for
> EVERYONE.

Don't the new students from the nearby schools already have the courses? How would it be more for them?

>
> Your son, if he were in 8th grade now and came to
> South Lakes next year, would have an outstanding
> education in a warm and nurturing environment.
> He'd have nearly all the same 9th-grade choices
> his peers do at other schools (absent some
> electives) and the same flexibility in scheduling
> because he'd be with 450 of his peers.

In what way would he be better off than he would be at his current school?

IB Veritas Wrote:

> ... he could take IB History of the Americas and the AP
> test after that.
----
How often does that happen? I ask because according to the Virginia Department of Education website in 05-06 a total of three South Lakes student took ANY AP exams.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB Veritas Wrote:
> > ... MIT
> > gives 12 credits for a 7 in HL IB Math and 12
> > credits for a 5 in BC Calculus. ...
>
> According to "Fairfax County Public Schools IB
> Exam Scores by Level and Subject 2006-2007 Table
> 2" (Source: IT/EIS/DS - 09/14/07) exactly ONE
> FCPS student in the entire County scored a seven
> in HL IB Math.
>
> NO student, not one, in the entire FCPS system
> scored a seven in HL Biology, Chemistry, OR
> Physics.


Out of curiosity I looked for the AP information to see how many students earned a 5 on the BC Cal. That data isn't broken down, only percentage of students scoring a 3 or above: http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=706

IB Veritas Wrote:
> SL ..is disadvantaged in available
> teachers .... More students from
> nearby schools -- voila -- more teachers, higher
> enrollment, higher ability = more courses for
> EVERYONE.
>
---------
Are you sure of that? As has been pointed out by several other posters, South Lakes already has more than the number of teachers one would expect. According to someone who was at the "Business and Community Advisory Committee" last night, the Superintendent stated small schools, SPECIFICALLY South Lakes, have extra staffing because, among other things, of ESOL programs, high FRM numbers, and IB, BUT ALSO BECAUSE they are small schools. (I don't see any minutes yet on the FCPS web site from this meeting so I can't cite a source for you.)

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB Veritas Wrote:
>
> > ... he could take IB History of the Americas and
> the AP
> > test after that.
> ----
> How often does that happen? I ask because
> according to the Virginia Department of Education
> website in 05-06 a total of three South Lakes
> student took ANY AP exams.

I have been wondering about the feasibility of taking AP exams. Not because the content would be so terribly different for IB students (and afterall one can take AP exams without a course, by doing self study), but the logistics of it. I looked at the College Board site to see what they say about students not taking the course due to IB, Homeschooling or whatever, and anyone can indeed sign up to take the AP exam, however in order to do so you have to coordinate with a local school that offers the course, and therefore offers the exam.

I would think that first you would have to notify the school in a timely enough fashion to ensure your child is registered, and secondly coordinating between the exams (IB, SOL, and perhaps finals) and the AP(s) at another school would be quite difficult.

I wondered about it for my own children, who are not at all interested by the way, in adding additional exams to their IB ones. But, for those that are considering this, you should find out about the logistics. How feasible is it really?

AP vs IB Wrote:
> ... I looked for the AP information
> to see how many students earned a 5 on the BC Cal.
> That data isn't broken down...

I looked also, and could not find it either. Since you are a teacher can you find out? Otherwise I have some prior-year data somewhere.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > My son is taking an AP history class as a
> sophomore, with the knowledge that it is highly
> likely that, with a passing test grade, he will
> not have to sit through another college history
> survey course, but can focus on things of more
> specific interest to him. Go aheadh, show me how
> an IB-only school would do that for me.


Just FYI, Stuart students can take AP Government as sophomores, I believe Robinson also utilizes this in lieu of the pre-IB 10th grade course.

That is the only AP course offered at Stuart, but it is a very good one. So, folks at SL looking for AP courses I would encourage getting that one versus the proposed AP Human Geography.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> ... anyone can
> indeed sign up to take the AP exam, however in
> order to do so you have to coordinate with a local
> school that offers the course, and therefore
> offers the exam.
>
> I would think that first you would have to notify
> the school in a timely enough fashion to ensure
> your child is registered, and secondly
> coordinating between the exams (IB, SOL, and
> perhaps finals) and the AP(s) at another school
> would be quite difficult.
>
> ...But, for those
> that are considering this, you should find out
> about the logistics. How feasible is it really?

Very easy - call any of your nearby AP schools. Now, January, would be a good time to call. If your child has an IB exam that day, AP has makeup exams (just one of the many AP advantages).

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > ... I looked for the AP information
> > to see how many students earned a 5 on the BC
> Cal.
> > That data isn't broken down...
>
> I looked also, and could not find it either. Since
> you are a teacher can you find out? Otherwise I
> have some prior-year data somewhere.

Sure, I can chat with people tomorrow.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> Just FYI, Stuart students can take AP Government
> as sophomores, I believe Robinson also utilizes
> this in lieu of the pre-IB 10th grade course.
>
> That is the only AP course offered at Stuart, but
> it is a very good one. So, folks at SL looking
> for AP courses I would encourage getting that one
> versus the proposed AP Human Geography.
-----------------
I agree again.

(This is spooky - I don't agree with ANYONE this much.)

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > ... anyone can
> > indeed sign up to take the AP exam, however in
> > order to do so you have to coordinate with a
> local
> > school that offers the course, and therefore
> > offers the exam.
> >
> > I would think that first you would have to
> notify
> > the school in a timely enough fashion to ensure
> > your child is registered, and secondly
> > coordinating between the exams (IB, SOL, and
> > perhaps finals) and the AP(s) at another school
> > would be quite difficult.
> >
> > ...But, for those
> > that are considering this, you should find out
> > about the logistics. How feasible is it
> really?
>
> Very easy - call any of your nearby AP schools.
> Now, January, would be a good time to call. If
> your child has an IB exam that day, AP has makeup
> exams (just one of the many AP advantages).


Yes, make ups are a true advantage. However, I am curious to know if anyone has done this? What was their student's experience like? Easy? Worth it?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > Just FYI, Stuart students can take AP
> Government
> > as sophomores, I believe Robinson also utilizes
> > this in lieu of the pre-IB 10th grade course.
> >
> > That is the only AP course offered at Stuart,
> but
> > it is a very good one. So, folks at SL looking
> > for AP courses I would encourage getting that
> one
> > versus the proposed AP Human Geography.
> -----------------
> I agree again.
>
> (This is spooky - I don't agree with ANYONE this
> much.)

Ha. It is odd, isn't it? I didn't expect to have any collegial conversations here. Thanks. I gather you are currently with one HS, and might be at SL's due to the boundary changes?

I do truly feel for you. Not because I have any concerns about South Lakes, but because I think the whole thing was handled so very poorly. Kids and families will easily adapt to changes like this, if it is handled respectfully and truthfully. When there are issues with honesty, transparency, or respect though, suscipicians are easily raised.

I fault the school board, not the SL's community.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I've heard the colleges are starting to question
> giving all those credits for AP. One issue is that
> it is getting watered down, as evidenced by the
> fact that many sophomores are taking them now
> (this used to be pretty unheard of). The other
> issue is that colleges are starting to realize all
> of the money they are losing.
>
> So, issues related to college credit may
> eventually become moot."
>
> For what its worth, this statement tends to come
> from people who favor IB for whatever reason
> (perhaps because its at their school?) and are
> looking for a way to counter AP's advantage in
> this area. For the vast majority of colleges and
> the vast majority of AP classes, there is very
> little chance that there will be any meaningful
> change in this regard. At Harvard, perhaps, but
> that's not relevant to 99.9% of the kids in fcps.

I do think there was a huge increase in AP courses nationwide (perhaps due to Jay Mathew's list ranking percentage of AP/IB exams taken, regardless of passing rates), and that many of those courses were perhaps AP in name only.

However the College Board recently implemented some quality control, requiring all AP teachers to submit their syllabus for approval.

I highly doubt that colleges will stop giving credit for AP exams.

I actually think, and this I know will sound odd, that colleges like it when families get excited about college credit. They enjoy the focus being on that, even if it means debating which course/program accrues more credit. Perhaps the colleges feel if families are focused on saving a semester's or year's worth of tuition because of college credit, they won't focus on how high that tuition is nor how quickly the tuition increases.

And remember, I did share a true story of a student applying to graduate school, who is running into issues with the school not accepting his AP exam scores in lieu of the undergraduate college courses. This may be an isolated case, but my point is, even if offered credit, there are many things to consider.

Hey, is the school board meeting that is on Red Apple 21 right now live, or is it a tape of a past meeting?

Pretty entertaining stuff!

Many government professors at William and Mary complain that students who come in with AP credits which allow them to get credit for entry level classes (such as American Government) are not ready for the material being taught in the 300 level (mid level) courses and that they would prefer that everyone just take the 200 levels at WM.

I'll be speaking in 15 minutes!!!
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

Curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also have a thought on the aging issue - it
> would be interesting to see the breakout of home
> owners vs. renters attending SL. Those that own
> homes are more likely to stay, even after their
> children have grown (as is the case on my block),
> while renters have a higher turnover and will be
> replaced with new families. It may not explain
> all the differance, but could account for some of
> the decline at SL.

The number of each dwelliing unit types has not changed by 700 units in the SL attendance area. Doubtful renters have increased by 700 either.

Average stay at a house by homeowner nation-wide is 4 years and is lower in DC area.

Parents are choosing not to go to SL. Don't know why. Trend hasn't changed during Bruce's first 3 years.

Someone ought to do a survey of those who live in current SL and don't go to SL. Someone also needs to survey those who go to elementary school in SL pyramid and aren't at SL.

Until then we all just guessing.

Hunters Woods Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They did have an exodus, of 100 students, when
> Shadowood went from subsidized housing to
> condominiums.

Shadowood has always been condominiums.

goTRIBEgo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many government professors at William and Mary
> complain that students who come in with AP credits
> which allow them to get credit for entry level
> classes (such as American Government) are not
> ready for the material being taught in the 300
> level (mid level) courses and that they would
> prefer that everyone just take the 200 levels at
> WM.

Of course they would. Fewer students equals fewer 200 level classes equals fewer t/a slots for their grad. student proteges. Sorry to be cynical but I have too many professor friends kvetching about loss of t/a slots because of unpopular course offerings.

I like the guy who mentione the Stu Gibson shrine at South Lakes.

The ever amusing IBVeritas promises:

"Your son, if he were in 8th grade now and came to South Lakes next year, would have an outstanding education in a warm and nurturing environment. He'd have nearly all the same 9th-grade choices his peers do at other schools (absent some electives) and the same flexibility in scheduling because he'd be with 450 of his peers. And the next year, because he'd be with a cohort of 450 students, he'd have nearly if not all the same kinds of choices in 10th grade, plus a bunch more electives. And even more the next, while his sibling, entering in 9th grade in two years, would have all those electives and other choices as well, right from the start."

Check out the respective course offerings. South Lakes ALREADY offers essentially everything that other schools do, particularly for 9th graders. This years' 9th graders are with a cohort of 330-something (non-special-ed) students, which is plenty to schedule 15-20 concurrent classes, times seven periods / day = lots of options. My 9th grader has algebra II, english, biology, band, history, PE and spanish II. I think every high school offers those...are you gonna claim you couldn't schedule that? I bet a dozen 9th graders at South Lakes have that same schedule. What a blow to folks that want to feel disadvantaged.

You don't need redistricting to feel good about South Lakes. That's a line of bull that you've been fed by others.

Claritys husband....she must be at a Museum....

"Snowball effect of redistricting….....if approved……there will be more families for volunteer roles at South Lakes….opportunity for equity ....we don‘t want our community to become the haves and have nots….

“Those of opportunity and those that are lacking”

These people I'm watching on TV seem pretty civilized. People walking up and addressing the Board face to face.

I thought I read here that they broke the crowds up and sequestered small groups into classrooms?

Are the cops outside the door screening out the wild-eyed, whacked out looking speakers?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB Veritas Wrote:
> > SL ..is disadvantaged in available
> > teachers .... More students from
> > nearby schools -- voila -- more teachers,
> higher
> > enrollment, higher ability = more courses for
> > EVERYONE.
> >
> ---------
> Are you sure of that? As has been pointed out by
> several other posters, South Lakes already has
> more than the number of teachers one would expect.
> According to someone who was at the "Business and
> Community Advisory Committee" last night, the
> Superintendent stated small schools, SPECIFICALLY
> South Lakes, have extra staffing because, among
> other things, of ESOL programs, high FRM numbers,
> and IB, BUT ALSO BECAUSE they are small schools.
> (I don't see any minutes yet on the FCPS web site
> from this meeting so I can't cite a source for
> you.)

Yes, Dale said that 4 small schools, one being SL, gets extra funding for additional staff because they are a special needs school. They also get extra funding because they are an IB school. So they do have more teachers than the other schools.

>>>I fault the school board, not the SL's community.<<<

Of course! The SL community had nothing to do with any of this. It's the School Board who created this mess.

AP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is South Lakes willing to the switch? Otherwise,
> what's the point discussing something not going to
> happen?
>
> "So, my last question is still unanswered: Would
> replacing IB with AP at South Lakes mean that most
> people would not be so opposed to the
> redistricting?"

It would certainly help, but it won't happen, so why debate it? The school system will not agree to dumping IB in any school. The last school to try it was Woodson and it took TWO YEARS. The school board LOVES IB. Our school board has never cared what the community wants. So there is no reason to discuss AP at South Lakes. It won't happen.

Thomas More,
You mentioned, some pages back, the low percentage of 4 year graduates at some Virginia state Universities. I would ask you to look at the population at those schools. Many of those students are from middle and lower income families, and single families homes. Many of them cannot afford to go straight through college without taking off at least one semester to work. Nearly all of the students at some of those schools work part time, or full time, while they are in those state schools. They must pay for everything themselves. That prevents many from taking 15+ hours a semester. Many at William and Mary and UVA come from more affluent families who can afford to send students to college, pay all the bills, and provide spending money. That is not as true at Christopher Newport, Tech, Longwood, and Radford. Many of the students at those schools simply do not have the money available to them that will allow them to graduate in 4 years.

These are the very students who need as many AP credits as they can get, so that they can graduate from college as soon as possible.

I ask you to consider the kids you are criticizing when you see them not graduating from college in 4 years. They would LOVE to be able to afford to do that, but many cannot.

It dose seem that the school board dose love IB and I wonder why. I see a lot of officials exalting IB. I remember when there were alot of officials exalting "success by eight" which seemed to be faulty thinking and how the officials make decisions and then cram it down everyone's throat.

Liberals love IB because it is Euro centric, and has little US history, no US government. IB is a 'global' high school program, not a US program, therefore the democrats who run our schools love it. That also explains why folks in Reston would love it.

In FCPS we have hundreds of different programs, with no way to measure if they are effective or not. There is also no way to get rid of them, if a principal wants the program. So some elementary schools still have 'success by 8", some have other multi grade programs, some are single grade programs, some do looping with two grades at a time, some are Excel schools, some are Excel 2 schools, some do grouping, some don't. It seems that every new fad that comes along is adopted by at least some of our schools. Once a program is adopted, we're stuck with it. It takes decades to get rid of any FCPS program.

Anyone attend the school board hearing tonight? I'd love to have a report.

Thanks!

The word got out tonight!

One worry, we had too many opponents of the RD today, which is good. But hopefully there are opponents signed up for tomorrow and the last day on Feb 9. We will see. Some speakers really blasted Stu Gibson. But that guy was laughing all the way through. Maybe he is sure that he has the vote in his pocket?... Cant be sure what schemes and tricks he is planning for us.
Steve Hunt showed up and was great. If only he was still on the School Board.

Yes, we all wish Steve was still on the school board. StopRD made a HUGE mistake when they didn't endorse him. They cost him the election and cost parents their only voice on the school board. What a shame. Now we have no one who cares about what parents want for their children.

What did Steve say about the redistricting?

I would be shocked if Stu didn't have the vote in his pocket, 10 to 2 is my prediction. Tina Hone has made it clear that she will vote against redistricting and Raney will too. The others will vote with Stu. He's never cared what people say about him, as has been obvious for years.

Gentleman and School Board 1/31/08

I want to say thank you for having the boundary issues meetings and listening to the people of Fairfax County.

I have a few questions that I would like the answers to or please direct me to where I can locate the information.

How many boundary studies have been performed over the last ten years in FCPS and the cost for each one?

How many capital improvement projects have been performed over the last ten years in FCPS and the cost for each one?

How many boundary changes have been made in FCPS over the last ten years?



Does anyone on the blog know the answers to the above questions?









--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone attend the school board hearing tonight?
> I'd love to have a report.
>
> Thanks!


There were 120 three minute slots that people signed up for and almost 25% were no shows.

That is no good. If you sign up you need to show up.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, we all wish Steve was still on the school
> board. StopRD made a HUGE mistake when they
> didn't endorse him. They cost him the election
> and cost parents their only voice on the school
> board. What a shame. Now we have no one who
> cares about what parents want for their children.
>
>
> What did Steve say about the redistricting?
>
> I would be shocked if Stu didn't have the vote in
> his pocket, 10 to 2 is my prediction. Tina Hone
> has made it clear that she will vote against
> redistricting and Raney will too. The others will
> vote with Stu. He's never cared what people say
> about him, as has been obvious for years.

You elected them, now you have to live with them.

If that lady from the SLPTSA is going to be the spokesperson for SLHS she really should get to a hair salon some time soon or at least buy a brush.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, we all wish Steve was still on the school
> board. StopRD made a HUGE mistake when they
> didn't endorse him. They cost him the election
> and cost parents their only voice on the school
> board. What a shame. Now we have no one who
> cares about what parents want for their children.
>
>
> What did Steve say about the redistricting?
>
> I would be shocked if Stu didn't have the vote in
> his pocket, 10 to 2 is my prediction. Tina Hone
> has made it clear that she will vote against
> redistricting and Raney will too. The others will
> vote with Stu. He's never cared what people say
> about him, as has been obvious for years.


Steve asked the school board to have more time to address the issues of SL for fairness of everybody. There seemed to be more opponents of RD speaking last night, Alot said more time is needed for the study. Some said a task force or a team study should be implemented to study South Lakes before resorting to redistricting as the last option.

Is it possible to get a CEASE or DESIST order from a county, state or federal court in order to put the RD on hold?

Does anyone know the answer?

Steve Hunt was terrible when it came to the South County '05 debacle. He supported two terrible last-minute amendments that overcrowded SCSS AND West Springfield HS (who was not even part of the boundary study).

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, we all wish Steve was still on the school
> board. StopRD made a HUGE mistake when they
> didn't endorse him. They cost him the election
> and cost parents their only voice on the school
> board. What a shame. Now we have no one who
> cares about what parents want for their children.
>
>
> What did Steve say about the redistricting?
>
> I would be shocked if Stu didn't have the vote in
> his pocket, 10 to 2 is my prediction. Tina Hone
> has made it clear that she will vote against
> redistricting and Raney will too. The others will
> vote with Stu. He's never cared what people say
> about him, as has been obvious for years.

This is so true. Steve was the only one who could stand up and knew the issues. It was nice of Bolger to remove him and then have his own community taken out.

Don't think it is 10-2 yet.

Bolger blew it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, we all wish Steve was still on the school
> > board. StopRD made a HUGE mistake when they
> > didn't endorse him. They cost him the election
> > and cost parents their only voice on the school
> > board. What a shame. Now we have no one who
> > cares about what parents want for their
> children.
> >
> >
> > What did Steve say about the redistricting?
> >
> > I would be shocked if Stu didn't have the vote
> in
> > his pocket, 10 to 2 is my prediction. Tina
> Hone
> > has made it clear that she will vote against
> > redistricting and Raney will too. The others
> will
> > vote with Stu. He's never cared what people
> say
> > about him, as has been obvious for years.
>
> This is so true. Steve was the only one who could
> stand up and knew the issues. It was nice of
> Bolger to remove him and then have his own
> community taken out.
>
> Don't think it is 10-2 yet.


If the above is true, everything that has taken place to date has been a complete waste of time, because the FIX is in by Gibson.

How can I get my kid into South Lakes?

Stallion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Hunt was terrible when it came to the South
> County '05 debacle. He supported two terrible
> last-minute amendments that overcrowded SCSS AND
> West Springfield HS (who was not even part of the
> boundary study).




The above is true, just read below regarding what happen and how the SB decisions have made SCSS a total DISASTER.



Fairfax County
By Catherine Belter
Source: Times Community Newspapers
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 16 2005
UPDATED MONDAY, JUNE 4 2007

To my dismay, the Fairfax County School Board last Thursday managed in a single night to (1) cause the new South County school to be more overcrowded than it needs to be; (2) create underutilized capacity at Hayfield Secondary School and (3) most significantly, add an additional 160 students (phased in at 40 students per year) to an existing overcrowded situation at West Springfield High School.

In short, we built a new school and then, by the board's own ill-advised actions, caused overcrowding and underutilization and severely upset the West Springfield community.

How did these anomalous results occur? The process began when Daniel Storck, the Mount Vernon District representative, decided to support the desires of the Mason Neck community. He offered to amend the staff's recommended boundaries to add the Mason Neck community to the South County school, thereby removing these students from Hayfield Secondary School.

At the same time, Mr. Storck was faced with a competing and more valid claim for admission to the South County school by his constituents in the South Hunt Valley community (a community significantly closer to the new school than Mason Neck). He responded to this community's desires not by offering to champion the same cause of seeking to add them to the South County school but rather by offering to move them from Lee High School to West Springfield High School.

The West Springfield area had never been included in the study area for the South County school. Nevertheless, if Mason Neck was to be admitted to South County, the result of doing nothing for South Hunt Valley would be too patently unfair.

Further underlying the flawed nature of the process, Mr. Storck never consulted with the principal of West Springfield or otherwise alerted that community. He first alerted me to his intentions in late December, long after the public process had begun.

At my urging, and after I consulted with the West Springfield principal and the PTA president, the West Springfield community was alerted to Mr. Stork's intentions. A community meeting was hastily arranged and held on Jan. 24. At the meeting a number of parents voiced their concerns over the potential addition of 160 more students from South Hunt Valley to the already overcrowded situation at West Springfield.

This community meeting was followed immediately by a public hearing on Jan. 25, just two days before the board took up the new South County boundaries at its Jan. 27 public meeting.

I had hoped and expected that, at that meeting, the board as a whole would not allow its processes to be corrupted merely to make the two communities of Mason Neck and South Hunt Valley happy. At the board meeting, the motion by Mr. Storck to add the Mason Neck community passed.

Anticipating that Mr. Storck would try to assuage his constituents in South Hunt Valley by moving them into West Springfield, I then tried, with the assistance of school board representative Stu Gibson (Reston) and Kathy Smith (Centreville) to persuade the board to alleviate the unfairness by also adding South Hunt Valley to the South County school instead of West Springfield.

In the same motion, we included a provision advancing funds for the new middle school at the site. We did this since it was obvious that the new middle school would be needed at an earlier date as a result of the current population to be included in the new school as now exacerbated by the addition of the Mason Neck community. The board voted down this effort.

At this point, Mr. Storck, as anticipated, moved to add the South Hunt Valley community to West Springfield High School.

I argued that no one representative should be allowed to initiate action to affect boundaries of a school (West Springfield) not in a community that person represented and not without a more formal process with more adequate notice than what had been offered in connection with the South County study process. I also argued that there was no basis to add 160 students to an already overcrowded school.

The board rejected these arguments and voted to add the South Hunt Valley community to West Springfield High School. This action was done with minimal notice to the public advising them that the process had been expanded to potentially include communities outside the boundaries of the study area. This was unfair, lacking in adequate due process and resulted in the anomalous detrimental results described.

I understand that some of my colleagues may defend these results in the name of providing "community" schools-i.e., whole communities going to the closest school and retaining the "community" spirit represented by keeping feeder intermediate school populations together in high school. I disagree with their judgments.

In the end, the board alleviated a split feeder situation for South Hunt Valley but created a new split feeder situation for students in Gunston Elementary. The board made two small communities happy at the cost of adversely impacting the educational situation of thousands of other students and caused significant hard feelings among the West Springfield community-a community that should never have been impacted in the first place since it was not in the study area and was already overcrowded.

The board needs to carefully review these results and its processes. I will do my best to implement the board's final actions in the least disruptive fashion. But, at a minimum, this board needs to explain to the West Springfield community why their high school should suffer additional significant overcrowding merely because we built a new school.

I feel compelled to publicly express my disagreement with the board's judgments and voice my objection to the process by which these results have occurred.

Bolger blew it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, we all wish Steve was still on the school
> > board. StopRD made a HUGE mistake when they
> > didn't endorse him. They cost him the election
> > and cost parents their only voice on the school
> > board. What a shame. Now we have no one who
> > cares about what parents want for their
> children.
> >
> >
> > What did Steve say about the redistricting?
> >
> > I would be shocked if Stu didn't have the vote
> in
> > his pocket, 10 to 2 is my prediction. Tina
> Hone
> > has made it clear that she will vote against
> > redistricting and Raney will too. The others
> will
> > vote with Stu. He's never cared what people
> say
> > about him, as has been obvious for years.
>
> This is so true. Steve was the only one who could
> stand up and knew the issues. It was nice of
> Bolger to remove him and then have his own
> community taken out.
>
> Don't think it is 10-2 yet.


Can anyone tell me why Bolger removed Steve? How did he remove him? I thought Steve made an excellent speech. Anytime there is a conflict, a compromise should be reached and in this case the RD should be put on hold until further investigation is done to study South Lakes such as a task force assigned to study SL. Some SL supporters said the boundary plan must happen NOW. Redistricted kids to their school NOW.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More,
> You mentioned, some pages back, the low percentage
> of 4 year graduates at some Virginia state
> Universities.
>
> These are the very students who need as many AP
> credits as they can get, so that they can graduate
> from college as soon as possible.

Please forgive me, if you, any student or parent of a student at one of Va's underperforming univerisities inferred a criticism of them instead of an indictment of the schools.

It is the administrators of the schools that blame the low graduation rates on their student body. That's obviously ridiculous since it is the administrators who set the GPA and SAT criteria so high and chose the students in the first place.

Your observation regarding socio-economic factors is worth considering. However, other states seem to be able to get their kids from the same class through school in less time.

Comparable schools in nearby states, PA and NC, have much higher graduation rates with kids whose credentials are not nearly as demanding as the comparable VA schools previously listed. The examples are too numerous to name.

SPEAKERS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Anyone attend the school board hearing tonight?
>
> > I'd love to have a report.
> >
> > Thanks!
>
>
> There were 120 three minute slots that people
> signed up for and almost 25% were no shows.
>
> That is not good. If you sign up you need to show
> up.




Is it possible that the SB used up slots with fake names?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goTRIBEgo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Many government professors at William and Mary
> > complain that students who come in with AP
> credits
> > which allow them to get credit for entry level
> > classes (such as American Government) are not
> > ready for the material being taught in the 300
> > level (mid level) courses and that they would
> > prefer that everyone just take the 200 levels
> at
> > WM.
>
> Of course they would. Fewer students equals fewer
> 200 level classes equals fewer t/a slots for their
> grad. student proteges. Sorry to be cynical but I
> have too many professor friends kvetching about
> loss of t/a slots because of unpopular course
> offerings.


William and Mary does not use TAs in the government department. These are not formal complaints about classes, these are comments made on the fly during class.

duh wrote:

These people I'm watching on TV seem pretty civilized. People walking up and addressing the Board face to face.

I thought I read here that they broke the crowds up and sequestered small groups into classrooms?

Are the cops outside the door screening out the wild-eyed, whacked out looking speakers?

_________------------------------------------------------------------------

Checked out some of your earlier postings and understand you work for the County in area of school security.

Regarding the three County meetings..all participates, including South Lakes students, behaved in a responsible, mature, manner.

Lets face it, anyone who would give up a free evening to listen to lectures from Dean Tistadt…march into their assigned classrooms…. listen to psycho babble from hired County facilitators are people who, at most, have a criminal history of a single traffic ticket! Why the County had such a strong Police presence at these meetings is anyone’s guess. Newspaper accounts has made us aware of the presence of some MS-13 gang activity in and around Reston but no such issues arose at any of the meetings. Doubt those types would care about redistricting meetings.! If that is why the County hired all the Police, it was another waste of money.

We are a compliant, hardworking group of citizens interested in the future decisions which impact our children. Most of us discovered the meetings were a fraud. Simple as that.

This school board might have power for the next 4 years since the majority of citizens voted them in, but I for one, will be examining the merits of all school bonds put up for a vote in the future. No more easy “YES” coming from me.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More,
> You mentioned, some pages back, the low percentage
> of 4 year graduates at some Virginia state
> Universities. I would ask you to look at the
> population at those schools. Many of those
> students are from middle and lower income
> families, and single families homes. Many of them
> cannot afford to go straight through college
> without taking off at least one semester to work.
> Nearly all of the students at some of those
> schools work part time, or full time, while they
> are in those state schools. They must pay for
> everything themselves. That prevents many from
> taking 15+ hours a semester. Many at William and
> Mary and UVA come from more affluent families who
> can afford to send students to college, pay all
> the bills, and provide spending money. That is
> not as true at Christopher Newport, Tech,
> Longwood, and Radford. Many of the students at
> those schools simply do not have the money
> available to them that will allow them to graduate
> in 4 years.
>
> These are the very students who need as many AP
> credits as they can get, so that they can graduate
> from college as soon as possible.
>
> I ask you to consider the kids you are criticizing
> when you see them not graduating from college in 4
> years. They would LOVE to be able to afford to do
> that, but many cannot.


Do you have any facts to support your comments, or is this another attempt to create truth. I know of no data which demonstrates a correlation between 4-year graduation rates and socio-economic status at state universities in Virginia. As a whole, I don't think that differences between UVA, W&M, CNU and Radford students is that significant and I say this as a parent who has had children at each of these schools. You may have a higher percentage of students from SW Virginia at Longwood, Tech and Radford, but that is more likely a factor of proximity than anything else. W&M, UVA and GMU are pretty far away from places like Bristol Chesterfield and this is the hardship which drives at least some of the demographic differences.

I would be all for reinstating AP at South Lakes and also adding honors classes. I found the IB program to be inflexible and too time consuming. I took IB english, math, history, and art in the certificate program. It really bothered me that there were no honors classes in the middle and so I was forced to take either an extremely challenging IB class or a basically "free period" in the subjects I was not as interested in (english and science). Pressure to take the most challending classes in order to get into a top college made me have to choose between a "C" in IB english or science or an "A" in what seemed to be the looked down upon by colleges gen ed class.

IB was not all bad though. Looking back, I have become an excellent writer and I definately credit the IB program for that. I am able to write papers at a faster pace and they turn out to be more coherant with fewer revisions than a lot of my AP school counterparts. I never thought of myself as a good writer until I got to college and saw that my abilities were stronger than others.

Another point to make: Even though I am not a huge fan of IB, I find myself getting defensive when posters bash it. I have figured out that this is not because I actually care about IB (look at my experiences), but IB is a part of South Lakes and so my head sometimes wrongly puts the two together. This could be part of why some SL posters get so defensive. I know my parents would have loved to do away with IB while my siblings and I were at South Lakes, Im sure there are many more parents out there who are willing to do the same.

PS. There really is almost no difference between SL and HL classes (at least in english and history). I think in IB english, HL had to read one more book and there was an extra essay they had to write on the exam. For history, I think they needed to write an extra essay in class and then probably the same thing on the exam. IB SL classes are definately above the honors class level. I think it is stupid for colleges not to give credit for them.