Stephanie,

Re-read your posts to Baffled from today. The ones where you start off saying, "My name is Stephanie." You posted twice to him, saying basically the same thing, just re-worded. It's odd.

Yesterday, you posted a very long post starting with something like, "I know I haven't posted to this forum in a quite awhile." Yet, two days ago, you posted almost the same very long post, just re-worded slightly. That's what baffled, Baffled.

Did the real you post all of these?

Stephanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stephanie,
> > That is totally awesome that you have such
> small
> > classes. That's a real advantage that other
> > students in the other schools do not have. If
> > only 15 students signed up for a class in
> another
> > school that class would be canceled.
> >
> > I am concerned about you. This perfectionism
> is
> > not healthy. You KNOW that. You know what
> > happens to perfectionist girls who do
> everything,
> > including running 6 miles a day. I am worried
> > about you.
>
>
> I think most on this forum know I didn't write
> that post, I'm not an idiot Neen, no matter what
> you'd like to believe the mass majority are at
> South Lakes. The truth of the matter is you don't
> care about us, you could care less if South Lakes
> were to shut down tommorow. That's the truth. And
> if you want me to be honest I don't care what you
> think. All I know is that this redistricting might
> give me the oppurtunity to take IB Physics 2 HL
> next year, which by the way was canceled this year
> as there was not enough interest. THIS IS WHY WE
> WANT REDISTRICITING. For once we would like a
> larger number of students to try out for our
> teams, but unfortunatly with the number of
> students we don't have the ulimited options that
> overcrowded schools such as Chantilly have, are
> not available to us. For once I'd like to be able
> to take a class without having to sign up for
> academy because our schools don't offer the
> programs. Let's face it, the renovations were
> needed, and no school system pumps that amount of
> money into a school they havn't decided what
> they're going to do with. Lets face it, it might
> not happen next year, but somethings got to give,
> and something has to change. Our enrollment is
> declining every year while others continue to
> increase. Yes, maybe Westfields enrollment will
> have evened out by the year 2013, but by then
> South Lakes will be further down in enrollment
> numbers, meaning we might never have the same
> oppurtunies as others have, because lets face,
> numbers are the disadvantage in this situation.
> They always have been and always will be. I guess
> its just time to face it....

"All I know is that this redistricting might give me the oppurtunity to take IB Physics 2 HL next year, which by the way was canceled this year as there was not enough interest. THIS IS WHY WE WANT REDISTRICITING."

My apology to my previous post but it was the way the post was written that has gotten me to have a funny feeling or maybe it was because there was another post similar to yours earlier in this thread. My comment was that of in amazement of a student as driven as you are with having a full IB schedule and being active on two teams. I do not believe in telling anybody oh you can't do it. It is each person's choice how he or she wants to shape up his or her life and I wish you the best, Now back to your most recent post, I copied a particular sentence, This is exactly what many of us are trying to grapple with the idea of redistricting..how do you justify a newly redistricted 9th grader to help you get the course you wanted assuming grandfathering takes place for 10-12 graders in their current schools? Again, I wish you the best with your endeavors.

Oakton parent,
Your post was wonderful in explaining how this has all gone wrong. PLEASE send it to every member of the School Board. It may not change anything this time, but perhaps it might prevent a similar disaster in the future.

Thank you so much for articulating it so well for us.

You are very perceptive, IBVeritas. As I've also observed, fear and elitism are two of the threads weaving through this debate - not applicable to all, but applicable to some. And those who are not fearful or elitist but who nevertheless make irrational or crass personal arguments (e.g., at a community meeting a lady who was raising hell regarding redistricting told me she doesn't have kids but is simply concerned about her property values) are simply aiding and abetting the perpetuation of fear and elitistism - and, yes, racism too.

Those expressing merit-based concerns about redistricting in a manner which does not denigrate our community's best values should not be offended by IBVeritas's observation, or my observation that fear and elitism are undercurrents in this discussion. You should shun the offenders, whichever side of the debate you are on.

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re racism. Sorry to disillusion folks, but I
> myself have heard some pretty nasty prejudicial
> remarks from parents who thought I was "on their
> side" -- about South Lakes (and Herndon). They
> automatically accepted all the rumors about gangs
> and killings and drugs and laziness and equated
> them immediately with blacks and Hispanics. Many
> times I heard (along with others who have
> corroborated this experience) that they chose not
> to live in Reston because of "that element" and
> the "crime" and the "low scores" and the "bad
> teachers" that "that element" supposedly brings.
> On this very thread, people have talked about the
> low "values" poor people (aka blacks and
> Hispanics) bring to the school. And then the
> agreeing nods from parents listening to people
> making these remarks.
>
> I have to agree that there is an underlying
> current of racism in this county that no one wants
> to admit exists. It may not be a major factor in
> the redistricting opposition, but it is poison and
> I believe may underlie some of the most vehement
> opposition. It isn't something anyone would ever
> come out and admit openly because, thank goodness,
> most of us would respond with opprobrium. Social
> mores like this have some leveling effect. But
> those folks are here and hide their prejudice
> behind other arguments.
>
> I have strayed from the purpose of my posting on
> this thread, which is to help set the IB record
> straight, so I hereby will stay out of further
> discussion not related to IB. (I just hope that
> the issue of prejudice is one that some people
> will ask themselves about in the privacy of their
> own minds.)

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since you asked so nicely...
>
> > I'm curious. How do you think the process would
> have been "effectively managed"
>
> Three main areas stand out in terms of improving
> the process.
>
> First, the selection of Chantilly and Westfield
> for inclusion was the biggest faux pas. Those
> schools are sized for the populations enrolled
> there, and are distant from other schools so
> difficult to identify easy redistricting
> opportunities that would be well received. (Plus
> Westfield was recently redistricted.) There was
> no reason to include them in this study. This is
> the single biggest act of mis-management. If
> unused new capacity is a problem at SLHS, then why
> the push to create the same problem at westfield?
>
> Second, the inclusion of Langley (and to a lesser
> extent Madison) would have been great from the
> standpoint of addressing capacity imbalance and
> even saving money on the langley addition. Move
> part of Forestville to HHS, Aldrin to SLHS, and
> before you know it, you have a collection of
> similarly sized (1700-2000) schools in SLHS, HHS,
> Langley, Madison and McLean. Plus improved
> demographics, shorter commutes, better community
> coherence.
>
> Third, the lies and half-truths and just plain
> silly way the staff and board reacted through the
> process insulted our intelligence. Stu basically
> describes the change expected in October, and Dean
> Tistadt says in January that he was completely
> surprised by the outcome. Either he's a liar or
> stupid, not sure which is worse. The
> justifications were things like "schools should be
> 2000" (forget we just created one with 3100) or
> "too much competition on the cheerleading squads",
> or "schools can't all offer multivariate
> calculus", without saying anything about what SLHS
> would in fact be able to offer. Stu refusing to
> address the audience, and in general dismissing
> any opinions not in line with his own. The police
> presence and no videotaping and corralling into
> small rooms at the meetings. The justification
> for the Langley expansion, based on the expected
> result of this process, where "no decisions have
> been made". The final effect on Chantilly and
> Westfield is an 8% reduction or less on those
> schools. Boy, that should really help, huh?
> Oakton took the biggest hit on enrollment, when
> there was no particular need to change Oakton.
>
> That enough? Throw in moving people from AP to IB
> schools, and the expected bait and switch on
> grandfathering existing students due to budget
> concerns...yikes!


OK, one thing at a time. There is a lot of disagreement about your first problem with this study--the idea that Westfield and Chantilly are overcrowded. First, these two schools are 2 of a handful of schools that are "closed" for transfers this year, according to the fcps website. I would think this means that they truly are overcrowded. Also, I've heard from people at Westfield say that it is indeed overcrowded. Objectively, it has 18 trailers. Doesn't this bother you? We have trailers at Hunters Woods and I hated when my kids were in them. Temperature regulagion is imppssible, have to go outside in the winter, etc. They are also expensive to maintain. They really shouldn't be counted as true capacity, in my opinion. Maybe the School Board agrees.

Next, the addition and the trailers don't make up for lack of cafeteria, library space. This doesn't bother you? There are people who say it is crowded in the halls. Third, why would Kath Smith say they were crowded if they weren't? She truly believes this, according to her statements at the board meeting. What possible gain would she get by going against a vocal group of people?
Fourth, why did she get reelected if so many people disagree with her on this?

With all of these things saying that it is indeed overrcrowded, it strikes some of us as disingenuous and an excuse to get out of the study to say that it isn't. Don't get mad, I'm just stating the way it looks to some of us.

. . . to get you to stop telling others what they should think, feel, or do?

SLHS Parent Wrote:

>
> Those expressing merit-based concerns about
> redistricting in a manner which does not denigrate
> our community's best values should not be offended
> by IBVeritas's observation, or my observation that
> fear and elitism are undercurrents in this
> discussion. You should shun the offenders,
> whichever side of the debate you are on.
>

The reason is that many parents who are fearful and/or elitists will accept their child attending a school with a high low income and/or minority population if they are essentially attending a "school within a school" (e.g., tracking, magnet programs, etc.) such that the child has limited meaningful contact with those children the parent does not want his/her child to interact with or be influenced by. That's why some are touting making SLHS a magnet school instead of redistricting.

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm having a hard time believing that parents make
> irrational education decisions for their children
> because of covert racism. Especially racism that
> is not bourne out by facts.
>
> Why are parents willing to send their kids to
> Hunters Wood Elementary but those same parents
> absolutely will not send those same kids to South
> Lakes High?
>
> I think the kernel of truth lies in this paradox.
> Figure this one out, fix it, and then you will
> have plenty of "desirable" kids going to South
> Lakes. Families will crowd into the boundary area
> -- much as they have with Hunters Woods -- and
> there would be absolutely no need to force anyone
> in the Oakton or Westfield areas to send their
> kids to South Lakes.

concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephanie,
>
> Re-read your posts to Baffled from today. The ones
> where you start off saying, "My name is
> Stephanie." You posted twice to him, saying
> basically the same thing, just re-worded. It's
> odd.
>
> Yesterday, you posted a very long post starting
> with something like, "I know I haven't posted to
> this forum in a quite awhile." Yet, two days ago,
> you posted almost the same very long post, just
> re-worded slightly. That's what baffled, Baffled.
>
> Did the real you post all of these?


The reason this might have happened is lately I've found when posting that it blocks the post as it says it may be spam or something. Thats why I re-word it. But I guess it was posting even though it says it wasn't. I didn't directly mean to do this though. I'm sorry if it caused confusion.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephanie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Stephanie,
> > > That is totally awesome that you have such
> > small
> > > classes. That's a real advantage that other
> > > students in the other schools do not have.
> If
> > > only 15 students signed up for a class in
> > another
> > > school that class would be canceled.
> > >
> > > I am concerned about you. This perfectionism
> > is
> > > not healthy. You KNOW that. You know what
> > > happens to perfectionist girls who do
> > everything,
> > > including running 6 miles a day. I am
> worried
> > > about you.
> >
> >
> > I think most on this forum know I didn't write
> > that post, I'm not an idiot Neen, no matter
> what
> > you'd like to believe the mass majority are at
> > South Lakes. The truth of the matter is you
> don't
> > care about us, you could care less if South
> Lakes
> > were to shut down tommorow. That's the truth.
> And
> > if you want me to be honest I don't care what
> you
> > think. All I know is that this redistricting
> might
> > give me the oppurtunity to take IB Physics 2 HL
> > next year, which by the way was canceled this
> year
> > as there was not enough interest. THIS IS WHY
> WE
> > WANT REDISTRICITING. For once we would like a
> > larger number of students to try out for our
> > teams, but unfortunatly with the number of
> > students we don't have the ulimited options
> that
> > overcrowded schools such as Chantilly have, are
> > not available to us. For once I'd like to be
> able
> > to take a class without having to sign up for
> > academy because our schools don't offer the
> > programs. Let's face it, the renovations were
> > needed, and no school system pumps that amount
> of
> > money into a school they havn't decided what
> > they're going to do with. Lets face it, it
> might
> > not happen next year, but somethings got to
> give,
> > and something has to change. Our enrollment is
> > declining every year while others continue to
> > increase. Yes, maybe Westfields enrollment will
> > have evened out by the year 2013, but by then
> > South Lakes will be further down in enrollment
> > numbers, meaning we might never have the same
> > oppurtunies as others have, because lets face,
> > numbers are the disadvantage in this situation.
> > They always have been and always will be. I
> guess
> > its just time to face it....
>
> "All I know is that this redistricting might give
> me the oppurtunity to take IB Physics 2 HL next
> year, which by the way was canceled this year as
> there was not enough interest. THIS IS WHY WE WANT
> REDISTRICITING."
>
> My apology to my previous post but it was the way
> the post was written that has gotten me to have a
> funny feeling or maybe it was because there was
> another post similar to yours earlier in this
> thread. My comment was that of in amazement of a
> student as driven as you are with having a full IB
> schedule and being active on two teams. I do not
> believe in telling anybody oh you can't do it. It
> is each person's choice how he or she wants to
> shape up his or her life and I wish you the best,
> Now back to your most recent post, I copied a
> particular sentence, This is exactly what many of
> us are trying to grapple with the idea of
> redistricting..how do you justify a newly
> redistricted 9th grader to help you get the course
> you wanted assuming grandfathering takes place for
> 10-12 graders in their current schools? Again, I
> wish you the best with your endeavors.

Although students in my grade at other schools would be grandfathered in, the redistricting is most likely going to allow students an easier oppurtunity to people place into South Lakes that are older. I have friends in schools such as Oakton who are planning on having siblings attend South Lakes next year because of the redistricting and are open to the idea of switching schools to stay together. I know this will not be the case for most but the option I'm guessing would be open. Do not quote me on this, as I do not speak for Fairfax County obviously. Thus increasing the enrollment in the junior and senior classes. Wether it will be signifigant enough, which I doubt, although I hope, to offer classes such as the IB Physics HL 2 course I am unsure of.

SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason is that many parents who are fearful
> and/or elitists will accept their child attending
> a school with a high low income and/or minority
> population if they are essentially attending a
> "school within a school" (e.g., tracking, magnet
> programs, etc.) such that the child has limited
> meaningful contact with those children the parent
> does not want his/her child to interact with or be
> influenced by. That's why some are touting making
> SLHS a magnet school instead of redistricting.

Okay, so fine, you are agreeing that this has nothing to do with racism. That was the point that was being argued.

>
> navy parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm having a hard time believing that parents
> make
> > irrational education decisions for their
> children
> > because of covert racism. Especially racism
> that
> > is not bourne out by facts.

Funny how you white people attack other white people with all the racsim crap. Were laughting away on that shit. You know nothing about racism so stop using what was real bad for my grandparents to use for your own games. So what that people aren't with moving kids to a school not as good as where they are. That dont mean they are racists. . thats just wacked.

Stephanie THATLAST THING WAS WACKED..

I would have to defer to people who attend Westfield and Chantilly to give their opinions on the ultimately subjective questions as to whether these schools enrollment, hall density, presence of trailers, or other factors render them "crowded", "too crowded", or "so crowded that kids should be moved out of them". Hundreds to thousands of people from those schools showed up at the various meetings to express their desire not to be redistricted; perhaps they were just confused and forgot their schools were too crowded? The people I know from Chantilly do not want to be redistricted to someplace else, and I believe the Floris folks here would concur with respect to Westfield. I honestly don't know why Kathy Smith feels the schools' enrollment should be reduced; she's quoted in meeting notes as saying that is her opinion, and she can't site specific supporting statements from others who attend those schools. She faced a tough race for re-election; her challenger got more votes than Kathy did when she originally won the seat last election. Had the first meetings occurred before the election, I have reason to think she would not have been re-elected.

Westfield and Chantilly are closed to transfers this year, as are South County, Woodson and yes, Langley. However, Westfield and Chantilly are forecast reliably to have declining attendance in the coming years, at roughly the same absolute numbers (not percentage) as South Lakes has experienced recently, so from that standpoint, the redistricting is unneeded in order to reduce enrollment. Westfield enrollment is already declining this year, whereas South Lakes is increasing, which I believe is an artifact of the subprime mortgage problem and people reverting to rentals. The need for the trailers at Westfield should be gone in any event within 2-3 years regardless of what happens.

Last but not least, did you notice that the redistricting makes very little difference to the number of students forecast for Westfield or Chantilly? Whereas South Lakes would increase enrollment by more than 40%, which is a big difference, these bigger schools would be reduced by 8% (for Westfield) and 7% (for Chantilly). I think it is disingenous to suggest that subjective sense of crowding will be markedly changed by a 7% reduction in enrollment...the schools will still be "big".

When questioning to motives of others to "cook the books" re overcrowding, keep in mind that the whole premise of relief for South Lakes is predicated on this purported overcrowding, so anyone in support of moving students to South Lakes has reason to look for signs that schools are "crowded" whether or not people who go there agree.

"many parents who are fearful and/or elitists will accept their child attending a school with a high low income and/or minority population if they are essentially attending a "school within a school" (e.g., tracking, magnet programs, etc.) such that the child has limited meaningful contact with those children the parent does not want his/her child to interact with or be influenced by. That's why some are touting making SLHS a magnet school instead of redistricting. "

No, many of us oppose redistricting for a wide range of reasons, not because we don't want our kids to interact with minorities. Stop telling people why they don't want to change schools.

This has me puzzled:

"However in my IB Physics 1 class there are at least 22 students, and there are multiple IB Physics classes meaning about 80-100 probably take the IB Physics 1 course."

yet:

"All I know is that this redistricting might
> give me the oppurtunity to take IB Physics 2 HL
> next year, which by the way was canceled this year
> as there was not enough interest. "

I realize we're comparing last year to this year, but if you can't get an HL physics II class full of people as a followup from 80-100 SL physics I people, it seems like the problem goes beyond sheer numbers, and may reflect on the course itself?

Remember that even with 40% more students, you're only going increase demand for classes by 40% or so, and most of that will be for core classes.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would have to defer to people who attend
> Westfield and Chantilly to give their opinions on
> the ultimately subjective questions as to whether
> these schools enrollment, hall density, presence
> of trailers, or other factors render them
> "crowded", "too crowded", or "so crowded that kids
> should be moved out of them". Hundreds to
> thousands of people from those schools showed up
> at the various meetings to express their desire
> not to be redistricted; perhaps they were just
> confused and forgot their schools were too
> crowded? The people I know from Chantilly do not
> want to be redistricted to someplace else, and I
> believe the Floris folks here would concur with
> respect to Westfield. I honestly don't know why
> Kathy Smith feels the schools' enrollment should
> be reduced; she's quoted in meeting notes as
> saying that is her opinion, and she can't site
> specific supporting statements from others who
> attend those schools. She faced a tough race for
> re-election; her challenger got more votes than
> Kathy did when she originally won the seat last
> election. Had the first meetings occurred before
> the election, I have reason to think she would not
> have been re-elected.
>
> Westfield and Chantilly are closed to transfers
> this year, as are South County, Woodson and yes,
> Langley. However, Westfield and Chantilly are
> forecast reliably to have declining attendance in
> the coming years, at roughly the same absolute
> numbers (not percentage) as South Lakes has
> experienced recently, so from that standpoint, the
> redistricting is unneeded in order to reduce
> enrollment. Westfield enrollment is already
> declining this year, whereas South Lakes is
> increasing, which I believe is an artifact of the
> subprime mortgage problem and people reverting to
> rentals. The need for the trailers at Westfield
> should be gone in any event within 2-3 years
> regardless of what happens.
>
> Last but not least, did you notice that the
> redistricting makes very little difference to the
> number of students forecast for Westfield or
> Chantilly? Whereas South Lakes would increase
> enrollment by more than 40%, which is a big
> difference, these bigger schools would be reduced
> by 8% (for Westfield) and 7% (for Chantilly). I
> think it is disingenous to suggest that subjective
> sense of crowding will be markedly changed by a 7%
> reduction in enrollment...the schools will still
> be "big".
>
> When questioning to motives of others to "cook the
> books" re overcrowding, keep in mind that the
> whole premise of relief for South Lakes is
> predicated on this purported overcrowding, so
> anyone in support of moving students to South
> Lakes has reason to look for signs that schools
> are "crowded" whether or not people who go there
> agree.


Well, that sounds like a conundrum. There seems to be wide disagreement amongst the people at Westfield on the crowding issue. But I still think that the trailers should not be counted as capacity. Like I said, I've heard from people personally that it is overcrowded, I've seen statements by people from Westfield in the paper that it's overcrowded, and Kathy Smith seems to think it's overcrowded.

Also, it's difficult to know how many people from Westfield, from Chantilly, showed up at the meetings, since they were grouped together as StopRD, which came from Oakton neighborhoods too. There were also people from Herndon, Franklin Farm and other places representing their own neighborhoods, not to mention South Lakes people. So, were there only hundreds out of 2500 that showed up at the meeting? That might be a relatively small number of the people at the school.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2008 07:58PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason is that many parents who are fearful
> and/or elitists will accept their child attending
> a school with a high low income and/or minority
> population if they are essentially attending a
> "school within a school" (e.g., tracking, magnet
> programs, etc.) such that the child has limited
> meaningful contact with those children the parent
> does not want his/her child to interact with or be
> influenced by. That's why some are touting making
> SLHS a magnet school instead of redistricting.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Hunters Woods have "teams" where GT and non-GT (including some special needs) take all non-core classes together? That would mean GT and non-GT separated for core classes, but mixed together for PE, band, music, art, dance, etc.

Can someone tell me? Because if so, then racists and elitists would be dis-inclined to let their kids attend Hunters Woods, because they wouldn't be attending a "school within a school".

Aren't the applications each year so great that they have to conduct a lottery each year to determine who gets to attend?

So if Hunters Woods "mixes" their magnet students with non-magnet, high income with low income, minority with non-minority -- at least for some portion of each school day -- and they still have to do a lottery each year, then I'd say that there are a lot fewer racists and elitists than suspected.

I think this is very wonderful proof that there are many non-racist, non-elitist families in this area. The school hasn't made AYP in two years and still they have to turn students away.

I think that it is natural for people to gravitate towards what is perceived as the best place to be. The fact that the Westfield and Chantilly schools are large is a testiment to the fact the people feel that the Superior educational opportunities offered at Westfield, Chantilly and Oakton offset the fact that the school is large.

There is certainily no proof that Large schools underperform,especially if you look at the recent awards of excellence given to Oakton and Westfield. Do you seriously believe that people would keep their children in these large schools if they did not feel that their children were receiving an excellent education?

It may be that in a few years, South Lakes will decide to model their academic offering after the top schools in the area like Oakton, Langley, Westfield and Madison, rather than to path that they are currently on.

I know that on some level you will agree with me that the 1st group of children who are forced to move to South Lakes, are going to experience difficulties that are going to take place.

You can gloss over this real issue, and say that all is grand at South Lakes, but the reality is, South Lakes is under enrolled for a reason or reasons.

Most people, whether they are looking for a place to shop, dine, buy a car,etc. will naturally gravitate towards what they perceive to be the best, and I believe that if South Lakes was as good a school as many of the South Lakes parents are stating, that the school would be filled to capacity.

To say that the school is underenrolled simply due to bad rumors, aging population, lack of affordable housing etc. is just not true.

With very liberal Pupil Placement that the FCSB offers, if people really believed that their children would be better off in South lakes, they would be there. In addition, I would bet the the parents of Crossfield and Langley students would rather have a much shorter commute, if they felt that they could get the same or better academic offering at South Lakes.

I am still curious why the few South lakes students who do not have access to electives and classes at South Lakes, don't pupil place to other schools that do offer what they want. Many others in the county do this every year.

I have heard over and over why Soth Lakes will benifit from the RD, but I have yet to hear a single "Valid" upside for the children and families who would be asked to leave a proven top performing school, to attend South Lakes.

I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of families in the Floris Community are very happy to stay in Westfield. I am sure that all South Lakes parents and supporters know by know, that we are the same community who was forced to leave Oakton a few years ago.

Westfield is not overcrowded, next year they will be 50 under capacity... but Langley and Madison will be overcrowded.

A Freedom of Information Act inquiry was made to discover the number and nature of complaints of overcrowding at Chantilly and Westfield. The response from FCPS - "There are no written complaints or emails."

To continue with another question regarding Hunters Woods:

What is it that draws so many magnet and GT students? Does it have special programs, notable teachers, effective administration? I'm asking because each year several families are happy to leave Navy to go to Hunters Woods and Navy is a pretty great school.

Perhaps there's something to learn.

Navy parent,
I didn’t go to Hunters Woods, but I went to another GT center and even though the schools often claim there is lots of mixing between the GT students and the other kids at the school there isn’t much. To kids at the school I went to, it did feel like two separate schools.

What are the primary zip codes in Reston that feed to South Lakes?

Madison,

Did you have non-core classes such as PE, music, art, band, dance, or whatever, with the non-GT kids? Or did you pretty much stay with your same class all day?

Thanks!

Isn't South lakes also a "school within a school". I am under the impression that the IB kids are pretty much in their own class rooms, and are not really a part of the general population of "regular" kids.

What will be the benifit of bring in the Fox Mill, Madison and Floris kids? Do you expect the majority of these new kids to be in the advanced classes, or the general education classes with the "regular kids"?

Why HW but not SL? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Hunters Woods, a sought after school, has failed
> to make AYP the last two years.
>
> http://www.chroniclenewspapers.com/articles/2007/1
> 0/03/chronicle/news/news03.txt
> http://www.chroniclenewspapers.com/articles/2007/1
> 0/03/chronicle/news/news03.txt

Hunters Woods is two schools within the same walls. It's a magnet/general ed school and it's a large GT Center.

I suspect the difference between HW being sought after and being an AYP failure is the Seekers only see the top line numbers - the ones inflated by the GT Center.

...It's harder to fake the numbers with NCLB by moving the bright kids around...

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't South lakes also a "school within a school".
> I am under the impression that the IB kids are
> pretty much in their own class rooms, and are not
> really a part of the general population of
> "regular" kids.
>
> What will be the benifit of bring in the Fox Mill,
> Madison and Floris kids? Do you expect the
> majority of these new kids to be in the advanced
> classes, or the general education classes with the
> "regular kids"?


"Rregular" kids at SL will take a mix of "regular", pre-IB, and IB classes, just like they take a mix of AP and regular classes at other schools. IB disploma kids probably are the "school within the school", which is great if that's what you want. More "regular" kids means more flexbility in master schedule, more electives,and more upper level classes, less combining of classes.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield is not overcrowded, next year they will
> be 50 under capacity... but Langley and Madison
> will be overcrowded.
>
> A Freedom of Information Act inquiry was made to
> discover the number and nature of complaints of
> overcrowding at Chantilly and Westfield. The
> response from FCPS - "There are no written
> complaints or emails."


So I guess you think 18 trailers is fine and dandy? Then if we add 18 trailers to Madison, it won't be overcrowded anymore.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2008 09:17PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that it is natural for people to gravitate
> towards what is perceived as the best place to be.
> The fact that the Westfield and Chantilly schools
> are large is a testiment to the fact the people
> feel that the Superior educational opportunities
> offered at Westfield, Chantilly and Oakton offset
> the fact that the school is large.
>
> There is certainily no proof that Large schools
> underperform,especially if you look at the recent
> awards of excellence given to Oakton and
> Westfield. Do you seriously believe that people
> would keep their children in these large schools
> if they did not feel that their children were
> receiving an excellent education?
>
> It may be that in a few years, South Lakes will
> decide to model their academic offering after the
> top schools in the area like Oakton, Langley,
> Westfield and Madison, rather than to path that
> they are currently on.
>
> I know that on some level you will agree with me
> that the 1st group of children who are forced to
> move to South Lakes, are going to experience
> difficulties that are going to take place.
>
> You can gloss over this real issue, and say that
> all is grand at South Lakes, but the reality is,
> South Lakes is under enrolled for a reason or
> reasons.
>
> Most people, whether they are looking for a place
> to shop, dine, buy a car,etc. will naturally
> gravitate towards what they perceive to be the
> best, and I believe that if South Lakes was as
> good a school as many of the South Lakes parents
> are stating, that the school would be filled to
> capacity.
>
> To say that the school is underenrolled simply due
> to bad rumors, aging population, lack of
> affordable housing etc. is just not true.
>
> With very liberal Pupil Placement that the FCSB
> offers, if people really believed that their
> children would be better off in South lakes, they
> would be there. In addition, I would bet the the
> parents of Crossfield and Langley students would
> rather have a much shorter commute, if they felt
> that they could get the same or better academic
> offering at South Lakes.
>
> I am still curious why the few South lakes
> students who do not have access to electives and
> classes at South Lakes, don't pupil place to other
> schools that do offer what they want. Many others
> in the county do this every year.
>
> I have heard over and over why Soth Lakes will
> benifit from the RD, but I have yet to hear a
> single "Valid" upside for the children and
> families who would be asked to leave a proven top
> performing school, to attend South Lakes.
>
> I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of
> families in the Floris Community are very happy to
> stay in Westfield. I am sure that all South Lakes
> parents and supporters know by know, that we are
> the same community who was forced to leave Oakton
> a few years ago.


Well said, Floris Parent. I wish the SB and Facilities would be open-minded if they read your post. Exactly, SL folks--name ONE benefit these potentially redistricted kids would have? I do not want to hear "shorter commutes" or "an IB program is available" that kind of thing. Also what irks me about the way the boundary study was carried out, it was apparent that the SL community and FCPS staff and also the SB particularly Stu had their radars out for Fox Mill/Floris at least 2 years ago (I made a post about a student from SL submitting a review in 2006 saying South Herndon kids will be coming, etc) and YET fcps submitted 4 scenarios when they knew about 2 years ago which communities would be targeted, throwing out 4 plans,then coming up with #5 and then a slightly tweaked #6. Just curious, Floris/FM folks, did you know this was coming back in 2006 that your community would be targeted?

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that it is natural for people to gravitate
> towards what is perceived as the best place to be.
> The fact that the Westfield and Chantilly schools
> are large is a testiment to the fact the people
> feel that the Superior educational opportunities
> offered at Westfield, Chantilly and Oakton offset
> the fact that the school is large.
>
> There is certainily no proof that Large schools
> underperform,especially if you look at the recent
> awards of excellence given to Oakton and
> Westfield. Do you seriously believe that people
> would keep their children in these large schools
> if they did not feel that their children were
> receiving an excellent education?
>
> It may be that in a few years, South Lakes will
> decide to model their academic offering after the
> top schools in the area like Oakton, Langley,
> Westfield and Madison, rather than to path that
> they are currently on.
>
> I know that on some level you will agree with me
> that the 1st group of children who are forced to
> move to South Lakes, are going to experience
> difficulties that are going to take place.
>
> You can gloss over this real issue, and say that
> all is grand at South Lakes, but the reality is,
> South Lakes is under enrolled for a reason or
> reasons.
>
> Most people, whether they are looking for a place
> to shop, dine, buy a car,etc. will naturally
> gravitate towards what they perceive to be the
> best, and I believe that if South Lakes was as
> good a school as many of the South Lakes parents
> are stating, that the school would be filled to
> capacity.
>
> To say that the school is underenrolled simply due
> to bad rumors, aging population, lack of
> affordable housing etc. is just not true.
>
> With very liberal Pupil Placement that the FCSB
> offers, if people really believed that their
> children would be better off in South lakes, they
> would be there. In addition, I would bet the the
> parents of Crossfield and Langley students would
> rather have a much shorter commute, if they felt
> that they could get the same or better academic
> offering at South Lakes.
>
> I am still curious why the few South lakes
> students who do not have access to electives and
> classes at South Lakes, don't pupil place to other
> schools that do offer what they want. Many others
> in the county do this every year.
>
> I have heard over and over why Soth Lakes will
> benifit from the RD, but I have yet to hear a
> single "Valid" upside for the children and
> families who would be asked to leave a proven top
> performing school, to attend South Lakes.
>
> I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of
> families in the Floris Community are very happy to
> stay in Westfield. I am sure that all South Lakes
> parents and supporters know by know, that we are
> the same community who was forced to leave Oakton
> a few years ago.


Again, Floris Parent, pupil placing means you have to commit to driving them to school everyday. Something I personally would only do for a really compelling reason. If the choice was a short drive vs a longer bus ride, I'd go with the bus ride. But a shorter bus ride would be the best solution.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>

> Well, that sounds like a conundrum. There seems
> to be wide disagreement amongst the people at
> Westfield on the crowding issue. But I still
> think that the trailers should not be counted as
> capacity. Like I said, I've heard from people
> personally that it is overcrowded, I've seen
> statements by people from Westfield in the paper
> that it's overcrowded, and Kathy Smith seems to
> think it's overcrowded.
>
1) Kathy Smith is hardly an unbiased observer. She didn't want the Floris/McNair kids in the first place.
2) The actual physical capacity of Westfield is 3100, up from 2500 with the addition. For some reason, the last part of the addition is not yet open, perhaps explaining most of the current trailers. When they expanded the building they added capacity to the cafeteria.
3) Westfield is projected to be down to about 2900 by 2012. Reasonable given that the areas feeding Westfield are beginning to age a bit.

WHACKED Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funny how you white people attack other white
> people with all the racsim crap. Were laughting
> away on that shit. You know nothing about racism
> so stop using what was real bad for my
> grandparents to use for your own games. So what
> that people aren't with moving kids to a school
> not as good as where they are. That dont mean they
> are racists. . thats just wacked.
>
> Stephanie THATLAST THING WAS WACKED..

Ummm excused me Whacked but please tell me... when did I ever accuse anyone of being rascist? I simply said that for some reason parents sometimes feel as though students at South Lakes are not as bright as students at other schools, which I feel is an unfair assumption. This Whacked, is definitly not an accusation of rascism. Predjudice maybe, rascism no. You will NEVER here me say this is regarding the redistricting, because personally I don't believe the sides have ever had a thing to do with race. However, I do think this has a little to do with economic status. At least more so then rascism. This is the year 2008, and although we've come a long way as a nation, people always have flaws. This is something that will definitly change with time. But yes, I believe some of the reasoning behind the oppisition and defense for redistricting has been based upon the economic status of many of the students at South Lakes. Is that the case for all on the opposing side? No. You will never hear me say this either. But for some, yes. Unfortunatly there will always be people like this. ON BOTH SIDES. So please don't accuse me of assuming anything about the oppisition.

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Madison,
>
> Did you have non-core classes such as PE, music,
> art, band, dance, or whatever, with the non-GT
> kids? Or did you pretty much stay with your same
> class all day?
>
> Thanks!


At Forest Edge, a GT center, the GT and regular classes DO NOT MIX. They do not have PE, Art, music, or any other "specials" with other kids. Depending on the grade level team, they may not even move amongst other GT classes. They typically don't even play together during recess.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Isn't South lakes also a "school within a
> school".
> > I am under the impression that the IB kids are
> > pretty much in their own class rooms, and are
> not
> > really a part of the general population of
> > "regular" kids.
> >
> > What will be the benifit of bring in the Fox
> Mill,
> > Madison and Floris kids? Do you expect the
> > majority of these new kids to be in the
> advanced
> > classes, or the general education classes with
> the
> > "regular kids"?
>
>
> "Rregular" kids at SL will take a mix of
> "regular", pre-IB, and IB classes, just like they
> take a mix of AP and regular classes at other
> schools. IB disploma kids probably are the
> "school within the school", which is great if
> that's what you want. More "regular" kids means
> more flexbility in master schedule, more
> electives,and more upper level classes, less
> combining of classes.

Based on what you know about the demographics etc of the kids who will move to SL, what does the SL PTA and the SB see as the mix of the two programs? Will most of the new kids be in the regular or the IB classes? I am trying to understand whether the goal is to bring "up" the numbers for the "average" kids, or whether the goal is to add more kids to the IB program.

I do not see that the new kids will do anything to help the "disadvantaged" kids other than to dilute the overall numbers of FRM kids. Let me be clear in saying that I realize that not all FRM kids are not poor students, as I am sure that some of these kids are in the IB classes. Is there a break down of how many of the 33% of FRM kids are enrolled in the IB classes?

Floris Parent
It sounds like you think the IB and "regular" classes are two different programs. You can take any number of IB classes just like you can take AP classes. If you take all IB classes (junior and senior year), then you qualify for the IB diploma program.

IB classes work like AP classes for individual college credit for those classes. If you do the full IB diploma, VTech and other colleges will give a year of college credit.

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Madison,
>
> Did you have non-core classes such as PE, music,
> art, band, dance, or whatever, with the non-GT
> kids? Or did you pretty much stay with your same
> class all day?
>
> Thanks!

At Hunters Woods, the magnet is with the general ed kids. The GT kids are separated for academic classes and mixed in for specials.

Floris Parent Wrote:
> Based on what you know about the demographics etc
> of the kids who will move to SL, what does the SL
> PTA and the SB see as the mix of the two programs?
> Will most of the new kids be in the regular or the
> IB classes? I am trying to understand whether the
> goal is to bring "up" the numbers for the
> "average" kids, or whether the goal is to add more
> kids to the IB program.
>
> I do not see that the new kids will do anything to
> help the "disadvantaged" kids other than to dilute
> the overall numbers of FRM kids. Let me be clear
> in saying that I realize that not all FRM kids are
> not poor students, as I am sure that some of these
> kids are in the IB classes. Is there a break down
> of how many of the 33% of FRM kids are enrolled in
> the IB classes?


SLPP can't possibly know how many FRM kids take some IB classes as we can't generalize about FRM kids. Some are new immigrants, some are from impoverished families, some are children of single, educated parents. There is not a "typical" FRM student. Maybe the school has that number somewhere but that isn't something that is easily accessible.

Since there are effectively two IB tracks, one for the Diploma, and one for the high average kid who takes some IB courses, the addition of students from the aforementioned schools will increase the participation in each of these tracks.

An increasing amount of students are participating in the IB diploma program at SL and other schools as the program matures at these schools and as parents become aware of the program. I believe the numbers will increase even more with the addition of the redistricted students.

But as we've heard, the IB diploma is very rigorous. There are those hard workers, above average kids, that while they want to challenge themselves, they just can't commit the time and effort to the IB Diploma. Possibly they play sports, work after school, participate in band, whatever. They'll take a variety of IB classes. You'll see the participation numbers in these courses increasing as well.

Westfield Dad,
Why would Kathy Smith not want Floris/McNair kids? What does she have to gain? Just curious.

VaDriver, today @ 1:14 PM

The

Following

Advice

For

IB

Students

........regarding the IB exam, was printed in the South Lakes news letter, The Sentinel, dated April 20, 2007.

It is very important that all students come to the exam. Last year, one student even took an exam with a concussion. Needless to say, your attendance at the exam is mandatory. If there is some extreme situation, such as a severe car accident on the way to the site or an illness, simply contact Mrs. Stowe, explain the issue to her, and she will make a call to Wales and see what she can do to reschedule the test date or another solution.
__________________________________________


This is encouraging children to believe a school exam is more important than their health and well being. What kind of educator exploits the story of a child who arrives at an exam with a concussion? It's unbelievable that adults would impose this type of stress on a child.

They warn the students that only a SEVERE car accident would be an acceptable excuse for missing the exam. So, if the child has a car accident en route to the testing site, but isn't severely injured, he or she had better find an alternate means of transportation, pronto.

Never mind the police taking down all the information; never mind the child who, although, physically unharmed, is emotionally distraught; never mind that his parents are now on their way to the scene, grateful that their child is alive; never mind that all the child wants at that moment is to see his parents. Never mind all that.


Let's remember, the IB exam isn't a matter of life or death.... or, is it?

If Westfield has 18 trailers being utilized what type are they as far as size?
Is the expanded space in the school being used for anything? Also, is it classroom space?

Are there other plans to use excess space at the high school, such as adult education or middle school?

(Not related to any particular previous post.)

The IB diploma is not quite as rigorous as some might think. It amounts to taking six AP classes and the rest honors courses, plus a philosophy class and few activities that most kids do anyway.

Any kid can take any IB Standard Level (i.e., honors) or high level (i.e. AP) class and get the extra .5 GPA points and associated college credits for passing HL courses. (Almost ALL colleges offer credit for HL courses, as they do for AP courses; and diploma graduates get credit for passing HL grades plus one SL grade.)

Here are the fundamentals. This is ONLY FOR THE DIPLOMA -- which has absolutely no equivalent in any other high school program in the world. Keep this in mind, but you might see that your kid could qualify for this. In fact, when kids know from 9th grade they are candidates, many of them rise to it.

FOR DIPLOMAS:

There are three HL courses required: IB English HL ("higher level") and IB History HL, plus one third HL course of the student's choice. The other three required courses are SL ("standard level" or tantamount to "honors") in -- subtract the third HL course required -- language, math, sciences, and arts (or a second science can substitute for arts). These (usually) two-year courses generally begin in Junior year, but some can begin in Sophomore. Add to this an elective of choice (band, accounting, etc.)

IB diploma requires CAS hours (150 total between rising Junior year and graduation) and Theory of Knowledge (TOK), a three-hour-per-week philosophy class taken at some schools in the Junior year and some in the Senior year. This involves a lot of Socratic discussion and a few essays. Kids tend to really enjoy this and it's given either in place of an elective during the school day or as an "extra" class after school, or in in the evening, depending on demand and teacher availability.

CAS hours stand for Creativity, Activity, Service. (150 over two years) Taking 50 hours of sports count, and if you do any sport this would likely be met. Creativity can be fulfilled many ways (dance, art, band, chorus, certain volunteer activities, Odyssey of the Mind, etc.). Service is volunteer hours (50 over the course of two years.)

The 3,000+-word extended essay begins in Junior year on a topic of the student's choice. A mentor is assigned and the student begins compiling information and coming up with a theme. It doesn't require original research, but does require supporting a solid thesis with research and fundamental documents, if possible. The mentor and student work closely on this over one and a half years, with milestones between. (Drafts, rewrites, guidance on focus and approach, etc.) 3,000 words is fewer than most major papers -- it's about six pages, plus citations.

Most of the IB diploma requirements are going to be met by college-bound achieving students anyway. Most of them are active in extracurriculars, most do some volunteer service (Scouts, etc.), and writing an extended essay becomes pretty easy after practice in the pre-IB (aka "honors") courses.

At the end of your HL and SL courses (usually two-year courses -- like taking honors/regular Chemistry followed by AP Chemistry, or Precalculus followed by AP Calculus or honors/regular English followed by AP English), you do one to three "papers," otherwise known as a series of exams. You know exactly what to expect because you've taken similar exams all through the pre-IB and IB set of courses. Most IB and pre-IB courses are cumulative, so you're tested through the year on what you've learned the previous year -- or in the case of a two-year class, the previous two years. Teachers review this all along.

In fact, throughout the year, teachers give what is known as "internal assessments." These are similar to mid-term exams, but random samples are sent to the independent IB accreditation service -- that is, teacher grading is assessed to see whether they are grading "too tough" or "too easy" and teachers have to make adjustments based on the results. This happens in real time, basically. Students get the "results" of this assessment within a couple of months via teachers who adjust their grading based on how they've been evaluated. This keeps the curriculum up to standard and teacher grading honest. It also allows for the flexibility in content choice and curriculum progress that teachers can manage.

Students submit their extended essays in the Spring of their Senior year, and have to write short responses to their CAS activities to demonstrate what they found valuable about those efforts.

Most exams are taken late Senior year, unless a student finished an SL or HL course in Junior year, when they take it late Junior year. Some pieces of "final" exams, like English orals, are given in the middle to late Senior year. These orals require kids to look at a randomly selected passage from a work they've read over the last two years and do a literary assessment of them. They practice this all the time and are pretty comfortable with it by the time they do it. Similar to, say, German oral exams (PALS) where you speak into a tape recorder to demonstrate your understanding of the language.

The schedule for all these things (for diploma and certificate candidates, and also for all upper-classmen) is reviewed late in Sophomore year or early Junior year so students know what to expect and when to expect it. There are no surprises, and teachers are trained to work closely with kids all along to make sure they are progressing well. Teachers in various disciplines usually work together -- for example, the English and Science programs may work together so science projects are assessed both for their science value and their presentation clarity.

All the above is true of individual IB courses taken by students who are not in the diploma program. (It is usually pretty hard to tell the difference between diploma candidates and "regular" IB students.) The only difference is that they don't have to take TOK (though many do by choice), complete CAS hours, or do the extended essay.

IB Certificate students must fulfill the three HL course requirements, and the three SL course requirements, and the general pre-IB/IB course of study. No TOK, essay, CAS hours.

Non-diploma and non-certificate students don't have to take a certain number of IB courses. They can mix IB SL courses (equivalent to Honors) plus some HL (equivalent to AP) plus some general ed. For example, they can take IB HL Chemistry, IB HL English, IB SL History, Math Studies (like a general curriculum course), SL French, Music Theory, and Accounting. These are just examples.

Bear in mind: If your child takes pre-IB (aka honors) courses in 9th and 10th grade, he or she will learn to write and analyze very well -- no matter what his or her starting point was. I have heard dozens of parents marvel that their kids entered 9th grade "hating" to write. They hate it all through 9th grade. (Many kids do, no matter if AP or IB bound -- boys and girls.) Then in 10th grade it ain't so bad. Then at the end of 10th grade: "What's the big deal?"

The one drawback, if you want to consider this so, is that several IB courses are two-year courses, so you don't get as many college credits -- you take one exam for a two-year course and get the number of credits colleges give for that exam. However, some courses, like HL Physics, get as many as five college credits. You have to check with the colleges (as you do for AP -- several Ivy League colleges either don't give credit for AP, or they require that you take the course anyway even if they give you credit.)

If you believe that the purpose of high school is to rack up college credits, then sending your kid to an AP school and having him or her load up with AP courses should be your mission. (Remembering that almost no college allows more than 24 such credits). But if you believe that one mission of high school is to prepare your child for the challenging and fascinating world of higher learning, then it will matter more to you that the courses at the school your child goes to will do that, regardless of the credit amassed.

I don't know if this is helpful to those who couldn't "picture" an IB program, but I hope so.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield Dad,
> Why would Kathy Smith not want Floris/McNair kids?
> What does she have to gain? Just curious.

We're not from Sully District and she thinks Westfield should be the Sully High School. (Just like some (myself included) think South Lakes should be the Reston High School.)

The only problem, of course, is the missing Oak Hill High School.

>Any kid can take any IB Standard Level (i.e., honors) or high level (i.e. AP) class and get the extra .5 GPA points and associated college credits for passing HL courses. (Almost ALL colleges offer credit for HL courses, as they do for AP courses; and diploma graduates get credit for passing HL grades plus one SL grade.)<

I Meant to say .5 GPA for passing the courses, and college credit for the passing the above EXAMS. Sorry about that.

Westfield used to have more than 30 trailers, since the county kinda screwed up by not building another high school (the so-called Dulles school), then they built a 24 classroom addition to hold another 600 kids and bring the capacity of Westfield sans trailers to 3100. There were 3173 kids there to start the year, thus the need for trailers, but that should go back down by next year. Its already down to 3143 as of November.

Westfield won't have appreciable excess space for a couple of years. There's no plan for a middle school there, the middle schools in the area have enough capacity and there's not that much unused space at Westfield even with redistricting.

If you want to see the trailers in action, use mapquest and do a satellite view of the school. Google still shows the school before the addition.

IBVeritas , IB may be the best in the world, but it does not matter as it is not as recognized as AP in US. It targets a niche segment of supporters, and it will never be mainstream in US. I dont think it can ever be as accepted as AP in US colleges. Why put your children through all of IB work and yet put them in a position of disadvantage against their AP peers?
At one point the FAQs on FCPS site for redistricting admitted that IB is not as recognized in US, but now they have taken that out.

Curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Westfield has 18 trailers being utilized what
> type are they as far as size?
> Is the expanded space in the school being used for
> anything? Also, is it classroom space?
>
The addition has 3 floors. The top two are currently in use as classrooms. The bottom is largely unfinished at this point.
>
> Are there other plans to use excess space at the
> high school, such as adult education or middle
> school?

The currently unbuilt space was part of the addition to house the HS population. There will be, of course, 200 empty seats in the building by 2012 without the redistricting and will be 450 empty seats with the redistricting. (The only way they could house a middle school in this redistricting round would be to redistrict all of Floris and McNair to South Lakes...)

My personal guess is they are waiting to see what's happening with the redistricting before they decide how/whether to build the rest of the space out.

Floris Parent Wrote:
>
> It may be that in a few years, South Lakes will
> decide to model their academic offering after the
> top schools in the area like Oakton, Langley,
> Westfield and Madison, rather than to path that
> they are currently on.

What makes Westfield top-rated? Are you sure it is? Westfield 2007 SAT 1616, South Lakes 2007 SAT 1596, a twenty point difference even though South Lakes has 33% FRM compared to 11% FRM at Westfield. Both schools are below the County average for SAT scores, as is every other school in the West County Boundary Study except Oakton.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield used to have more than 30 trailers,
> since the county kinda screwed up by not building
> another high school (the so-called Dulles school),
> then they built a 24 classroom addition to hold
> another 600 kids and bring the capacity of
> Westfield sans trailers to 3100. There were 3173
> kids there to start the year, thus the need for
> trailers, but that should go back down by next
> year. Its already down to 3143 as of November.
>
Actually, that was the second screw-up.

The first screw-up was mis-sizing Westfield in the first place due to staff's mis-projections and their illegal recommendation to the Board to build a build larger than policy and the Board illegally accepting the recommendation -

"New high schools shall have a maximum program capacity of 2,000 students."

As all we Washingtonian bureaucrats know, shall means SHALL...

IBVeritas - get a life... diarrhea of the keyboard

WestfieldDad - don't believe that 2000/HS crap for a minute. It was written during the 80's and resurected on July 27, 2008 as a way to just the inclusion of Westfield and Chantilly at the exclusion of Langley. This was, of course after, the decision of which schools the SB would include in redistricting. Can you say cova yo ass.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad - don't believe that 2000/HS crap for
> a minute. It was written during the 80's and
> resurected on July 27, 2008 as a way to just the
> inclusion of Westfield and Chantilly at the
> exclusion of Langley. This was, of course after,
> the decision of which schools the SB would include
> in redistricting. Can you say cova yo ass.

I know that..., but

1) It doesn't cover their ass, they just wish it did. It's a policy for NEW schools. NEW means NEW.
2) The policy was the official policy (updated in 1993) of the school system when they designed and built Westfield at 2500 kids.

Observer,

You wrote several pages ago:


"I am unclear in your situation why you seem to feel that the South Lakes community initiated this process, your distrust comments make me wonder if that is what you feel."


I do not "think" that I indicated that the South Lakes community initiated this process. However, now that you mention it, and particularly after reading some of these posts, I wouldn't be suprised if some members of the South Lakes community lobbied for the change.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are the primary zip codes in Reston that feed
> to South Lakes?


20191
20190

To the person sitting behind the counter in the used book store wearing the black beret, t-shirt with Che Guevara, and thumbing through Das Kaptial, your ideology of the anvil of socialism isn't very appealing me. Mao zedong is dead.

I don't want my offspring at your "school."

Aww thats a cute post fmeparent. I bet you were really satisfied when you hit the "post message" button. :-D!

One of the young South Lakes posters wrote "I do think this has a little to do with economic status" as to the conflict that is at work here.

I "think" it has allot to do with with what will happen if two groups of people are "forced" to attend the same school. The conflict over economic status will come from both the haves and the have-nots.

In fact, don't think the level of infractions at South Lakes, in this case, will remain at 48 or so each year. I think the infractions will INCREASE.

There will be "jeolousy." There will be a sense of "turf." There will be "us" versus "them." Posters are doing that now here on this thread. What do you think will happen amongst the teenagers?


I "think" when anyone forces another group of people to move and a significant portion of that group does not want to go, you are "inviting" allot of trouble.

I understand why folks at South Lakes want more students. They want more classes. They want more athletes. They want more "advantaged" [SLPTA word as I recall reading] students at their school which should pull up the scores on SOLs, SATs, etc.

However, in my humble view, if you force people to buy a product that they don't want you will have disatisfied customers --and allot of them. You do not want lots of disatisfied customers. You want happy cheery customers who come back for more. You want people knocking down the door to get into South Lakes.

My Two Cents

do you realize that there are already "haves" at the school? they get along fine with the "have nots". in fact many of these "haves" probably "have" more than you "have".

reeeee,

FME Parent must have hit a raw nerve with you. I bet you were really angry when you hit the 'post message' button.

i graduated from south lakes and i wouldn't have wouldn't have changed that if i had the option. i loved every bit of it & what it taught me. it's sad to read these entries from all you "adults". stop being so ignorant. different backgrounds of either ethnicity or economically is the real world. take the time and look around you & you will be surprised on what you learn from others...oh, and GROW UP!

cya,

you are the reason my offspring will not go to your school. Good job for your cause. You proved my point.

cya wrote:

"do you realize that there are already "haves" at the school? they get along fine with the "have nots". in fact many of these "haves" probably "have" more than you "have".
__________________________

do you realize that the 'haves' at your school don't want anymore 'have nots'? they only want 'haves'? or i guess you didn't notice the hypocrisy of it all, now did you?

api

i graduated from south lakes and i wouldn't have wouldn't have changed that if i had the option. i loved every bit of it & what it taught me. it's sad to read these entries from all you "adults". stop being so ignorant. different backgrounds of either ethnicity or economically is the real world. take the time and look around you & you will be surprised on what you learn from others...oh, and GROW UP!

___________________________

api,

Unless you are e.e. cummings...learn how to start a sentence with a capital.

IBVeritas writes:

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, etc.

"I don't know if this is helpful to those who couldn't "picture" an IB program, but I hope so."

_________________

Sorry Verity, it only made the picture I already had, worse.

deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2008 12:57AM by Neen.

And since I am just in the mood I might as well write something that I have seen first hand, many times, on the school playing fields between South Lakes and Langston Hughes.


Why don't you folks do something about all the geese excrement on those fields?

For crying out loud, you got children rolling around in the stuff during football practice. The kids bring the fecal matter into the cars. Nothing like a bit of ecoli to make a parent's day.

I don't know if the band is stepping in the stuff during practice on that parking lot but I know the children get to roll around in it during football practice.


Why don't you [now I am going to write a "bad" word here] "shoot" them? That way you can pluck their feathers and do a big Christmas goose feast for the children instead of letting the children roll around in excrement?

Eventually the geese will get the idea that it is not safe to visit South Lakes.

[If you don't want to shoot the geese because hunting laws may forbay such activity because of the field's proximity to the buildings, then buy a bird cannon and fire the thing off in the evenings when the geese come in for their landing.]

Doing something about those geese would greatly improve the quality of life for those who enjoy fall sport at the school not to mention those who have to wash the uniforms --and bring the ecoli into their washing machines.

You want happy cheery customers baning down the door to get into South Lakes.

If you want to improve anything you have to admit their is need for improvement. If you keep saying folks are getting along fine at South Lakes then you are telling me you don't see a problem.

Well I see a problem. Others have seen it too. The level of infractions at South Lakes has remained flat for the three years on record at the FCPS website for South Lakes. However, the population at the school is dropping. [pause]


Now that tells me, you potential customer by the way, that a) people aren't getting along at South Lakes as much as posters here would have me believe b) that the element that is causing the infractions remains despite the general population shrinking c) there hasn't been success with reducing the hostility at the school d) the school has more problems in this area than our current school despite the fact that our current school has far more students.

What I infer from these observations is that things will not change at your establishment. I can expect to have worse customer satisfaction at your establishment than the one I currently honor with my custom. Moreover, because customers will be forced to attend your establishment, I can only expect the level of infractions to "increase" as skeptical and unwilling customers enter the establishment and mix with the element that is causing the infractions.

Now you can blow me off and call me names and try and be cute or even get angry but clearly there is something a miss at your establishment and your potential customers are telling you it needs to be fixed. Maybe it can't be fixed? Is that what I am to infer?

I can't fix it as I do not go there and forcing me to send my offspring there isn't get me to fix it either. I have made comments at South Lakes about the geese excrement when my son played football in those fields. No body fixed that problem then. Maybe people in charge didn't see a problem or where disinterested or distracted by other issues or even told no. I do not know but the problem still was there after we left.


[By the way some of us who are concerned about this issue should be given credit for spending our time placing input on this thread for pete's sake. I have to get ready for work.]

One other observation. Part of South Lakes image problem is that is surrounded by exceptional schools. It is hard to raise an establishment up to exceptional competition and I am aware that it makes it extreemly difficult for those who want to raise their game. I do believe that there are some people who want South Lakes to be as good as their competition. Some of those people are posting here. I am aware of that too.

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...playing fields between South
> Lakes and Langston Hughes.
>
>
> Why don't you folks do something about all the
> geese excrement on those fields?...

That for me is a big fat messy issue. Does anyone complain? Does Gibson care? Who cleans the crevices of the helmets? I don't care about old or older buildings as long as they are safe and sanitary. West Springfiled is not sanitary yet South Lkaes got a NEW ADDITION for an ART wing. Glasgow got extra rooms. Langley got an addition.

Look at the weather- little kids in trailers are walking outside to the toilet-reverse it and have people walking outside to a porta pot for a toilet. The trip's the same. FCPS disgusts me - it once put a modular building at a site on septic which was overloading-bubbling up on the ground. Now gets pump and haul which is NOT FREE. Guess what school? Forestville. Tom Rust and the town of Herndon did have something to say about that.

If that modular had to be parked somewhere at least put where there's a sewer.

Foxmill… Off Topic…but one last post…from....I guess, “a have”.

Regarding Geese…they put out 3 lbs of waste a day and this breed in not protected under the migratory bird act. So the following…


I once suggested to the ass’t princial of Rachel Carson Middle School: …

Start up a Hunting Club, shoot the Geese…..bring the geese into the Home Ec Room, Cook them up and deliver them with a red bow to a homeless shelter…… I thought it was a nice package deal…..she nearly fainted.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> >
> > It may be that in a few years, South Lakes will
> > decide to model their academic offering after
> the
> > top schools in the area like Oakton, Langley,
> > Westfield and Madison, rather than to path that
> > they are currently on.
>
> What makes Westfield top-rated? Are you sure it
> is? Westfield 2007 SAT 1616, South Lakes 2007 SAT
> 1596, a twenty point difference even though South
> Lakes has 33% FRM compared to 11% FRM at
> Westfield. Both schools are below the County
> average for SAT scores, as is every other school
> in the West County Boundary Study except Oakton.



http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=766

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...playing fields between South
> > Lakes and Langston Hughes.
> >
> >
> > Why don't you folks do something about all the
> > geese excrement on those fields?...
>
> That for me is a big fat messy issue. Does anyone
> complain? Does Gibson care? Who cleans the
> crevices of the helmets? I don't care about old
> or older buildings as long as they are safe and
> sanitary. West Springfiled is not sanitary yet
> South Lkaes got a NEW ADDITION for an ART wing.
> Glasgow got extra rooms. Langley got an addition.
>
> Look at the weather- little kids in trailers are
> walking outside to the toilet-reverse it and have
> people walking outside to a porta pot for a
> toilet. The trip's the same. FCPS disgusts me -
> it once put a modular building at a site on septic
> which was overloading-bubbling up on the ground.
> Now gets pump and haul which is NOT FREE. Guess
> what school? Forestville. Tom Rust and the town
> of Herndon did have something to say about that.
>
> If that modular had to be parked somewhere at
> least put where there's a sewer.


Dear Taxpayer and FMEP

We can't fix this goose problem, just like we can't fix are other problems, until we have your 700 kids. Please send shovels, a hose and a case of anti-bacterial wipes with your student on the first day of school.

Regards,
You know who

SLVerity, Here is another web site to look at:

http://www.schoolmatters.com/schools.aspx/q/page=sc/scid=49104,49283,49219/pid=sr/up_txt=Fairfax$sp;County/up_ust=VA/up_so=1/up_sc=0/up_p=-1/up_fp=1/up_fltr_nb=High/up_ctxt=Fairfax$sp;County$sp;$sp;,VA

Interesting comarison of Stuart, Marshall and South Lakes.

http://www.schoolmatters.com/schools.aspx/q/page=sc/scid=49195,49174,49219/pid=sr/up_txt=Fairfax$sp;County/up_ust=VA/up_so=1/up_sc=0/up_p=-1/up_fp=1/up_fltr_nb=High/up_ctxt=Fairfax$sp;County$sp;$sp;,VA

poo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ...playing fields between South
> > > Lakes and Langston Hughes.
> > >
> > >
> > > Why don't you folks do something about all
> the
> > > geese excrement on those fields?...
> >
> > That for me is a big fat messy issue. Does
> anyone
> > complain? Does Gibson care? Who cleans the
> > crevices of the helmets? I don't care about
> old
> > or older buildings as long as they are safe and
> > sanitary. West Springfiled is not sanitary yet
> > South Lkaes got a NEW ADDITION for an ART wing.
>
> > Glasgow got extra rooms. Langley got an
> addition.
> >
> > Look at the weather- little kids in trailers
> are
> > walking outside to the toilet-reverse it and
> have
> > people walking outside to a porta pot for a
> > toilet. The trip's the same. FCPS disgusts me
> -
> > it once put a modular building at a site on
> septic
> > which was overloading-bubbling up on the
> ground.
> > Now gets pump and haul which is NOT FREE.
> Guess
> > what school? Forestville. Tom Rust and the
> town
> > of Herndon did have something to say about
> that.
> >
> > If that modular had to be parked somewhere at
> > least put where there's a sewer.
>
>
> Dear Taxpayer and FMEP
>
> We can't fix this goose problem, just like we
> can't fix are other problems, until we have your
> 700 kids. Please send shovels, a hose and a case
> of anti-bacterial wipes with your student on the
> first day of school.
>
> Regards,
> You know who


What? Poo, your pettiness has to stop. Did the SL community and Stu really get involved with the targeted communities to discuss the boundary change so to get everything out in the open...like two years ago much like the SL student who submitted a review in 2006 knowing South Herndon kids would be coming? Instead there are alot of angry families from the Floris/FM/M areas being like what why us? So do not say "until we have your 700 kids", etc. So tell us, is it right to hold semi secret and secret meetings about hmmm this community and that community must come to us and then poof this is happening. I read an article about the boundary study yesterday from Times and I will make another post about that one and see if anybody want to comment on that. On a previous article, Tistadt said it was a safe and sound thing to do with the boundary study. Safe and sound?

Before everyone adds "goose shit" to the list of reasons not to go to SL somewhere after IB and support of athletic teams maybe you should check out every other grass playing fields in the county to see how much goose shit is there every spring and fall. I suppose there could be more of it at SL because the geese either like the diversity of the school or its mascot is also a water bird.

I will say this about the SL sports facilities, the football stadium looks very nice. It's refreshing to actually see a brick and concrete stadium instead of the usual bleachers and plywood press box.

new hawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Before everyone adds "goose shit" to the list of
> reasons not to go to SL somewhere after IB and
> support of athletic teams maybe you should check
> out every other grass playing fields in the county
> to see how much goose shit is there every spring
> and fall. I suppose there could be more of it at
> SL because the geese either like the diversity of
> the school or its mascot is also a water bird.
>
> I will say this about the SL sports facilities,
> the football stadium looks very nice. It's
> refreshing to actually see a brick and concrete
> stadium instead of the usual bleachers and plywood
> press box.


That's great--not every high school in this county has that, right?

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity, Here is another web site to look at:
>
> http://www.schoolmatters.com/schools.aspx/q/page=s
> c/scid=49104,49283,49219/pid=sr/up_txt=Fairfax$sp;
> County/up_ust=VA/up_so=1/up_sc=0/up_p=-1/up_fp=1/u
> p_fltr_nb=High/up_ctxt=Fairfax$sp;County$sp;$sp;,V
> A

I wonder where they are getting that data.

Here are 2007 SOLs
SOL 06-07 SL/Hn/Wd/Ok/Ch
Reading 95/94/97/98/96
Writing 94/95/96/99/96
Geometry 83/92/92/93/94
Algebra2 83/93/90/92/92
Va History 93/96/98/96/97
World Hist 90/96/96/98/95
World 2 86/96/95/97/96
Biology 85/91/92/97/92
Chemistry 73/87/87/91/92
Earth Sci 91/97/93/97/93

Sorry, I posted the wrong table. Above is for all students 06-07



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2008 09:54AM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

What numbers are you citing there? Here are the 06-07 SOL's for Oakton...all pass rates at least 88%, most well about 90%...

http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:18:3901411181751331::NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:050

Here's South Lakes. Also pretty good, but you can tell there are differences in the student population...

http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:18:3789073216901767::NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:320

Yes, I dont' know where those School Matters numbers are coming from. They dont' seem to accurately reflect South Lakes' entirely respectable scores.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2008 09:58AM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> new hawk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Before everyone adds "goose shit" to the list
> of
> > reasons not to go to SL somewhere after IB and
> > support of athletic teams maybe you should
> check
> > out every other grass playing fields in the
> county
> > to see how much goose shit is there every
> spring
> > and fall. I suppose there could be more of it
> at
> > SL because the geese either like the diversity
> of
> > the school or its mascot is also a water bird.
> >
> > I will say this about the SL sports facilities,
> > the football stadium looks very nice. It's
> > refreshing to actually see a brick and concrete
> > stadium instead of the usual bleachers and
> plywood
> > press box.
>
>
> That's great--not every high school in this county
> has that, right?

How much more did it cost? Any enhancements? FYI while I'm not a contractor I know an addition when I see one and a lot more was done at South Lakes than a renovation. Go to the homepage and see the photos. Somebody awhile ago posted about the Madison baseball team pupil placements. Here's an article on how South Lkaes had a football employee pupil placement who changed to the base school , Westfield, and how Westfield employed a teacher mom. How much time do school administrators spend on athletic recruitment?

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/printarticle.asp?article=8577&archive=true

Why are the mobility rates so much higher at South lakes?

APPENDIX A: STUDENT MOBILITY DETAIL BY SCHOOL 15
06-07
School Name E1 E2 R3 Entries R2 R4 Ws Mobility Enrollment Mobility Rate Rank
Annandale 137 0 6 143 56 29 290 518 2546 20.35% 5
Centreville 33 22 13 68 49 14 135 266 2345 11.34% 14
Chantilly 39 23 11 73 46 20 132 271 2953 9.18% 18
Edison 41 18 26 85 17 25 148 275 1873 14.68% 11
Fairfax 54 26 12 92 37 15 193 337 2270 14.85% 10
Falls Church 70 9 10 89 42 31 163 325 1475 22.03% 3
Hayfield 32 27 24 83 42 28 176 329 1604 20.51% 4
Herndon 54 24 14 92 19 17 165 293 2269 12.91% 12
Jefferson Sci/Tech 2 0 0 2 0 2 17 21 1802 1.17% 25
Lake Braddock 50 5 7 62 37 9 110 218 2585 8.43% 21
Langley 25 1 1 27 4 6 61 98 2069 4.74% 24
Lee 102 11 11 124 43 21 207 395 2082 18.97% 6
Madison 23 8 2 33 22 7 74 136 1954 6.96% 23
Marshall 31 16 7 54 19 12 132 217 1438 15.09% 9
McLean 31 13 10 54 22 14 95 185 1866 9.91% 15
Mount Vernon 63 41 30 134 54 27 269 484 1898 25.50% 1
Oakton 43 0 1 44 22 20 130 216 2437 8.86% 20
Robinson 60 0 2 62 27 12 135 236 2899 8.14% 22
South County 34 17 17 68 36 18 126 248 2062 12.03% 13
South Lakes 42 22 7 71 37 19 136 263 1529 17.20% 8
Stuart 82 16 25 123 21 39 222 405 1665 24.32% 2
West Potomac 63 20 28 111 42 21 210 384 2097 18.31% 7
West Springfield 35 17 3 55 21 12 127 215 2280 9.43% 17
Westfield 42 24 11 77 35 22 189 323 3342 9.66% 16
Woodson 22 7 3 32 23 17 129 201 2224 9.04% 19


http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/historical/pdfs/mobility/mob0607.pdf

Floris Parent,

Higher than what? What are you trying to say?

Mobility is directly correlated to % of disadvantaged kids at the school. Poorer families have less stable living situations. South Lakes is in the middle range, at 17.20%, and is less than double that of Oakton, Westfield and Chantilly, yet South Lakes has 3 times more FRM students. So why is the mobility rate at those three schools so high relative to their %FRM?

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I dont' know where those School Matters
> numbers are coming from. They dont' seem to
> accurately reflect South Lakes' entirely
> respectable scores.


My Guess is that this is the difference between a 3rd party who has no ulterior motives in manipulating statistics VS. a School Board that is trying to cover up and manipulate scores to show their schools in the best possible light. This would be especially true with regards to the schools that are underperforming in the FCPS district. It does not look good for the SB when a county spends so much money of schools in what is one of the richest counties in the nation, and still has huge underacheivement issues.

I place the blame on an administration that has recklessly spent money on Staff and facilities, rather that on its students. Especially the "at risk" students.

Here is an interesting Graph to look at:

http://www.fcta.org/GIFSFC04ADP/FC04SchlTwo98.html

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent,
>
> Higher than what? What are you trying to say?
>
> Mobility is directly correlated to % of
> disadvantaged kids at the school. Poorer families
> have less stable living situations. South Lakes
> is in the middle range, at 17.20%, and is less
> than double that of Oakton, Westfield and
> Chantilly, yet South Lakes has 3 times more FRM
> students. So why is the mobility rate at those
> three schools so high relative to their %FRM?


The other schools have twice as many children enrolled. Do you feel that bringing in more students will change the mobility rate of the existing student population in SL, or do you feel that it will simply dilute the %?

I am wondering if it would be more advantages for the SB to simply take the neediest of the 33% of studets, and provide busing to other schools in the area.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, I dont' know where those School Matters
> > numbers are coming from. They dont' seem to
> > accurately reflect South Lakes' entirely
> > respectable scores.
>
>
> My Guess is that this is the difference between a
> 3rd party who has no ulterior motives in
> manipulating statistics VS. a School Board that is
> trying to cover up and manipulate scores to show
> their schools in the best possible light. This
> would be especially true with regards to the
> schools that are underperforming in the FCPS
> district. It does not look good for the SB when a
> county spends so much money of schools in what is
> one of the richest counties in the nation, and
> still has huge underacheivement issues.
>
> I place the blame on an administration that has
> recklessly spent money on Staff and facilities,
> rather that on its students. Especially the "at
> risk" students.
>
> Here is an interesting Graph to look at:
>
> http://www.fcta.org/GIFSFC04ADP/FC04SchlTwo98.html



Floris Parent, this statement has absolutely no basis. Do you know where they are getting numbers at School Matters? Please tell. How exactly can average SOL scores be manipulated and by who? This is complete and utter speculation on your part, yet you state it as fact. Please cite your research.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris Parent,
> >
> > Higher than what? What are you trying to say?
> >
> > Mobility is directly correlated to % of
> > disadvantaged kids at the school. Poorer
> families
> > have less stable living situations. South
> Lakes
> > is in the middle range, at 17.20%, and is less
> > than double that of Oakton, Westfield and
> > Chantilly, yet South Lakes has 3 times more FRM
> > students. So why is the mobility rate at those
> > three schools so high relative to their %FRM?

You still didn't answer my question above. Why is mobility so high at Oakton, Westfield, and Chantilly, relative to percent FRM?
>
>
> The other schools have twice as many children
> enrolled. Do you feel that bringing in more
> students will change the mobility rate of the
> existing student population in SL, or do you feel
> that it will simply dilute the %?

You mean dilute it the way it is diluted at Oakton, Chantilly, and Westfield? The purpose of redistricting is precisely to even out the enrollment numbers.
>
> I am wondering if it would be more advantages for
> the SB to simply take the neediest of the 33% of
> studets, and provide busing to other schools in
> the area.

To which schools do you suggest 'busing' them? So you now support busing?

SLVerity, do you go out of your way to say silly things here, or does it come naturally to you?

"Mobility is directly correlated to % of disadvantaged kids at the school. Poorer families have less stable living situations. South Lakes is in the middle range, at 17.20%, and is less than double that of Oakton, Westfield and Chantilly, yet South Lakes has 3 times more FRM students. So why is the mobility rate at those three schools so high relative to their %FRM?"

Langley has less than 1% FRM, so South Lakes has more than 30 times as many FRM students (working in percentages). But, surprise surprise, Langley's mobility at 4.X% is seven times higher than 1/3 of South Lakes! Boy, Langley must really suck as a school, huh? People are clamoring to leave there, relatively speaking. In absolute terms, of course, they are staying more more than any other district. (TJ isn't district.)

Even people who can afford their lunch do in fact move, and people who are less well off might be in subsidized housing and might in fact not move. Trying to say that mobility % should be expected to be a constant multiple of FRL is, pardon the expression, dumb.

I'm not sure what to make of the mobility scores in general. The schools with higher mobility have more at-risk students of various kinds, so there is a correlation there, just not a mathematical one.

interestingly enough, the top 1/3 of schools with highest mobility include 62% of the schools offering IB, including numbers 1,2, 5,6, and 8 in the mobility rank. I'll leave it to somebody else to suggest that IB causes increased mobility, I don't know that's the case personally.

Oakton parent,
It could have something to do with the fact that FFX county has put IB disproportionately in lower performing (i.e. more disadvantaged) schools. Cause and effect is hard to judge here.

Not sure how knowing this enlightens us in any way.

BTW, I looked at teh School Matters site again. I couldn't find any information on what they are basing their numbers, nothing at all. Could be about as accurate as Zillow.

Oakton Parent:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you go out of your way to be gratuitously offensive? Mobility is directly correlated to socioeconomic status. Ask your school board rep. There are other factors as well, but socio-economic status is at the top, which would explain why the mobility at IB schools is higher, since the program has been placed at lower-performing schools in this county as a rule.

BTW, at Langley, socio-economic status could be a factor as well, since some of those families may be moving to private alternatives such as Madeira or Potomac.:) I know several families in the Langely district who have chosen private over public education. For some, public will never do.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLVerity Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Floris Parent,
> > >
> > > Higher than what? What are you trying to
> say?
> > >
> > > Mobility is directly correlated to % of
> > > disadvantaged kids at the school. Poorer
> > families
> > > have less stable living situations. South
> > Lakes
> > > is in the middle range, at 17.20%, and is
> less
> > > than double that of Oakton, Westfield and
> > > Chantilly, yet South Lakes has 3 times more
> FRM
> > > students. So why is the mobility rate at
> those
> > > three schools so high relative to their %FRM?
>
> You still didn't answer my question above. Why is
> mobility so high at Oakton, Westfield, and
> Chantilly, relative to percent FRM?
> >
> >
> > The other schools have twice as many children
> > enrolled. Do you feel that bringing in more
> > students will change the mobility rate of the
> > existing student population in SL, or do you
> feel
> > that it will simply dilute the %?
>
> You mean dilute it the way it is diluted at
> Oakton, Chantilly, and Westfield? The purpose of
> redistricting is precisely to even out the
> enrollment numbers.
> >
> > I am wondering if it would be more advantages
> for
> > the SB to simply take the neediest of the 33%
> of
> > studets, and provide busing to other schools in
> > the area.
>
> To which schools do you suggest 'busing' them? So
> you now support busing?


"You mean dilute it the way it is diluted at Oakton, Chantilly, and Westfield? The purpose of redistricting is precisely to even out the enrollment numbers."
>
Quoting this above...it is very difficult to "precisely" even out the enrollment numbers of all schools given a number of factors based on mobility, pupil placement, open enrollment, projections of how many students would come, all that stuff.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Quoting this above...it is very difficult to
> "precisely" even out the enrollment numbers of all
> schools given a number of factors based on
> mobility, pupil placement, open enrollment,
> projections of how many students would come, all
> that stuff.

You can play with semantics all you want. Give it your best shot.

IBrelevance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IBVeritas , IB may be the best in the world, but
> it does not matter as it is not as recognized as
> AP in US. It targets a niche segment of
> supporters, and it will never be mainstream in US.
> I dont think it can ever be as accepted as AP in
> US colleges. Why put your children through all of
> IB work and yet put them in a position of
> disadvantage against their AP peers?
> At one point the FAQs on FCPS site for
> redistricting admitted that IB is not as
> recognized in US, but now they have taken that
> out.

They removed it because IB credits are accepted at nearly every single college in the US. Why is that so hard to understand? (Even AP credits are no longer accepted everywhere.)

Perhaps you read my entire post, but if you did, you chose to ignore all of it and focus on the AP-credit thing. I can't help that. (This seems pretty common in this discussion group -- anti-RD people ignoring all the informative and explanatory information and picking out the one or two sentences they can continue their pet harangue about.) S

So how do you respond to the following piece of my post:

"If you believe that the purpose of high school is to rack up college credits, then sending your kid to an AP school and having him or her load up with AP courses should be your mission. (Remembering that almost no college allows more than 24 such credits). But if you believe that one mission of high school is to prepare your child for the challenging and fascinating world of higher learning, then it will matter more to you that the courses at the school your child goes to will do that, regardless of the credit amassed."

Do you not believe that there is a 24-credit limit on AP? Nobody seems to be concerned about that. It works out to eight AP courses -- provided kids get 3,4,5 on them (and MANY colleges don't give credits for 3s). Do you really think that's what MOST kids take? Do you think kids take, say 10 AP courses and 10 tests hoping to at least get 8 credit grades?

Bottom line is that, IMHO, sending a kid to school to cram AP courses into their resumes is not healthy. If kids are willing and able to do that, then fine. But if they do it because their parents are "forcing" them to (speaking of "forcing" which seems to be a theme in this thread), then you have to question this behavior.

Since I went to Langley and it's become the GOLD standard of the best education in this county (besides and before TJ), I am curious if you all believe that my high school education was superior to that of my friends who went to Robinson, Fairfax, and Oakton and to most of yours?

I guess Langley is superior because FCPS send all the best teachers there, the best administrators, and the best facilities like labs, art, media, etc. Is that the case? FCPS sends the crappy teachers to the other schools, right?

What makes a Langley education so much more superior than South Lakes, for instance? Anyone venture a guess?


If for one, you are a college educated person, then it is LIKELY that your offspring will be college educated as well. Financially, they will be similarly successful.

Soo, we can assume that wherever your offspring attend high school in Fairfax County or probably even in freakin' DC schools, they will be successful. If you value education, a moral value system, you encourage respect for others and hard work,

IT IS LIKELY THAT YOUR OFFSRPING WILL DO THE SAME.

Oakton is not better than South Lakes, nor Westfield nor Herndon nor Chantilly. Langley is NOT a better school than Oakton or Robinson, or the rest of the schools in the county. It just is comprised of kids who are "generally" from wealthier, likely, educated families.

Geesh, how can you not see that?

IBVeritas,
The original post is about "IB is not as recognized in US as AP". You change the subject to how many kids can take that many AP classes, and went on to babble it's so wrong to push them.

Please do not switch the topic, if you want to make an argument.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> ... I wonder where they are getting that data. ...

That is always a good questions to ask when dealing with FCPS-publicized statistics.

Go to http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=700 and notice the last sentence of the first paragraph:

"The average scores represent tests taken by FCPS seniors from the class of 2007 and include the scores of students who are not enrolled in FCPS but take the test in Fairfax County high schools."

Isn't FCPS stating the reported SAT scores do NOT just count the scores of enrolled students, but also include students who only happen to take the SATs there? Does this mean a school might have big swings in test results because of private, parochial, and home-schooled students who took the test there that year?

Oldtimer makes an interesting post about most kids will do about as well regardless of the so-called quality / resources / enrollment of the school they go to. I tend to agree, having gone myself from a small town, 800-total enrollment, 30% going on to college high school to a graduate degree at a west coast ivy-league-sorta college. That beat USC in football this year. :)

But...just curious...doesn't that argument bolster the case AGAINST redistricting? Why disrupt families, move around teachers, run double buses, when it won't really make a difference to the students' education? It seems like the justification to do this would be that it improves education, but you make a good case that it won't have much effect.

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IBVeritas,
> The original post is about "IB is not as
> recognized in US as AP".

All colleges and universities, including Harvard and the like, list which IB courses and which AP courses are potentially eligible for college credit. All of them are aware of IB, and all of them post exam score requirements, and which courses students MIGHT be able to get credit for, and the MIGHT is for both AP and IB.

Many students, whether AP or IB choose not to get the college credit, even if earned, to either reinforce what was learned and have an easier time in a course, or ensure that what was taught in HS in their course, is what is actually covered in the college course.

In addition, many of the science courses will allow for college credit for the lecture part of the course, but not lab credit, and so the schedule might be easier for a student to go ahead and take the science course in addition to the lab, even if they earned credit.

As a rule, many universities feel AP is weaker in the lab aspect of the science courses than IB, and you will therefore see in those universities credit extended to IB students for labs and not to AP students.

I believe the Fordham report, which had some issues is easily found on-line, and you might want to check out the NRC report which discussed math and science courses via AP and IB. The NRC report did not have the credibility issues that the Fordham report (via Klein) had.

Yes, we KNEW two years ago we were targeted. Stu showed up at a PTA meeting to "feel the waters" and ended up in a shouting match. That's the reason why nobody in SB or the schools talked about it until recently with the charade of "community input". And, yes, we knew two years ago Fox Mill was going to feed into SL regardless....very sad! The only "surprise" is the neighborhoods that will be feeding into SL.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think that it is natural for people to
> gravitate
> > towards what is perceived as the best place to
> be.
> > The fact that the Westfield and Chantilly
> schools
> > are large is a testiment to the fact the people
> > feel that the Superior educational
> opportunities
> > offered at Westfield, Chantilly and Oakton
> offset
> > the fact that the school is large.
> >
> > There is certainily no proof that Large schools
> > underperform,especially if you look at the
> recent
> > awards of excellence given to Oakton and
> > Westfield. Do you seriously believe that people
> > would keep their children in these large
> schools
> > if they did not feel that their children were
> > receiving an excellent education?
> >
> > It may be that in a few years, South Lakes will
> > decide to model their academic offering after
> the
> > top schools in the area like Oakton, Langley,
> > Westfield and Madison, rather than to path that
> > they are currently on.
> >
> > I know that on some level you will agree with
> me
> > that the 1st group of children who are forced
> to
> > move to South Lakes, are going to experience
> > difficulties that are going to take place.
> >
> > You can gloss over this real issue, and say
> that
> > all is grand at South Lakes, but the reality
> is,
> > South Lakes is under enrolled for a reason or
> > reasons.
> >
> > Most people, whether they are looking for a
> place
> > to shop, dine, buy a car,etc. will naturally
> > gravitate towards what they perceive to be the
> > best, and I believe that if South Lakes was as
> > good a school as many of the South Lakes
> parents
> > are stating, that the school would be filled to
> > capacity.
> >
> > To say that the school is underenrolled simply
> due
> > to bad rumors, aging population, lack of
> > affordable housing etc. is just not true.
> >
> > With very liberal Pupil Placement that the FCSB
> > offers, if people really believed that their
> > children would be better off in South lakes,
> they
> > would be there. In addition, I would bet the
> the
> > parents of Crossfield and Langley students
> would
> > rather have a much shorter commute, if they
> felt
> > that they could get the same or better academic
> > offering at South Lakes.
> >
> > I am still curious why the few South lakes
> > students who do not have access to electives
> and
> > classes at South Lakes, don't pupil place to
> other
> > schools that do offer what they want. Many
> others
> > in the county do this every year.
> >
> > I have heard over and over why Soth Lakes will
> > benifit from the RD, but I have yet to hear a
> > single "Valid" upside for the children and
> > families who would be asked to leave a proven
> top
> > performing school, to attend South Lakes.
> >
> > I can assure you that the overwhelming majority
> of
> > families in the Floris Community are very happy
> to
> > stay in Westfield. I am sure that all South
> Lakes
> > parents and supporters know by know, that we
> are
> > the same community who was forced to leave
> Oakton
> > a few years ago.
>
>
> Well said, Floris Parent. I wish the SB and
> Facilities would be open-minded if they read your
> post. Exactly, SL folks--name ONE benefit these
> potentially redistricted kids would have? I do
> not want to hear "shorter commutes" or "an IB
> program is available" that kind of thing. Also
> what irks me about the way the boundary study was
> carried out, it was apparent that the SL community
> and FCPS staff and also the SB particularly Stu
> had their radars out for Fox Mill/Floris at least
> 2 years ago (I made a post about a student from SL
> submitting a review in 2006 saying South Herndon
> kids will be coming, etc) and YET fcps submitted 4
> scenarios when they knew about 2 years ago which
> communities would be targeted, throwing out 4
> plans,then coming up with #5 and then a slightly
> tweaked #6. Just curious, Floris/FM folks, did
> you know this was coming back in 2006 that your
> community would be targeted?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > ... I wonder where they are getting that data.
> ...
>
> That is always a good questions to ask when
> dealing with FCPS-publicized statistics.
>
> Go to
> http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrele
> ase.cfm?newsid=700 and notice the last sentence of
> the first paragraph:
>
> "The average scores represent tests taken by FCPS
> seniors from the class of 2007 and include the
> scores of students who are not enrolled in FCPS
> but take the test in Fairfax County high
> schools."
>
> Isn't FCPS stating the reported SAT scores do NOT
> just count the scores of enrolled students, but
> also include students who only happen to take the
> SATs there? Does this mean a school might have big
> swings in test results because of private,
> parochial, and home-schooled students who took the
> test there that year?


This is true for any school, so are you saying that all SAT scores from all schools are suspect? If so, then not sure what value that has.

Also, IBVeritas, I wanted to say that your long post about IB was very illuminating for me. Thanks. In fact, maybe you should see if SLHS can put it on their website.

And I agree, the idea that people are loading up their kids with advanced AP classes is really just for the relative few. Most people's kids will take a mix of regular and advanced classes. My daughter is talking about doing the IB diploma, but I certainly won't push it if it's too much. I want her to have a life. She can do college when she's in college.

Old Timer,
The quality of the school definitely matters. I agree, an "advantaged" kids will turn out fine anywhere -- it's not because these kids automatically inherit the success, rather ,in a school that doesn't offers the regular programs (aka AP), it's the parents who will have to put in a LOT more efforts to amend what the school supposedly to do. And THAT's why the kids will be fine.