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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:18PM

Forum Reader, does that mean that test scores reported at all FCPS schools are invalid, since all most certainly have test-takers who are not enrolled?

If South Lakes, for example, had a big upward swing, would you argue that it was due to home-schooled or privately educated test-takers bringing the scores up? How would you explain the big drop at Oakton last year? Would it be explained by home-schooled or privately educated test-takers bringing the scores down?

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:22PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
> They removed it because IB credits are accepted at
> nearly every single college in the US. ...
>
> ...(Remembering
> that almost no college allows more than 24 such
> credits)....
>
> Do you not believe that there is a 24-credit limit
> on AP? Nobody seems to be concerned about that. It
> works out to eight AP courses -- provided kids get
> 3,4,5 on them (and MANY colleges don't give
> credits for 3s).

No, I do NOT believe there is a 24-limit credit, which, by the way, can be earned in just THREE (not eight) AP courses. Please cite the paragraph, for example, that gives a 24-credit limit at UVA. What I see is "Students may transfer a maximum of 60 non-UVa. credits to the University from a combination of testing programs and academic institutions."

Go to http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/classes/ap_credit.html
A "4" each on AP US History, Art History, BC Calculus, and Physics earns 32 credits at UVA - more than a full YEAR for just FOUR AP exams.

And never forget the difference between IB HL and IB SL. "INTERNATIONAL BACCALAUREATE CREDITS AT VIRGINIA TECH SUBSIDIARY LEVEL* For Students Entering Summer or Fall 2007 *A Maximum of 3 semester credits (or 4 with lab) from subsidiary level courses are allowed, but only with an IB Diploma". Can you cite ANY credit from UVA and W&M for SL courses, the ones usually taken?

[Some people ignore proof of their misstatements. Before I spend any more time on this sub-issue, how many examples will it take for you to admit you are wrong?]

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: observer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:23PM

For those interested here is the NRC report I mentioned. It was done in 2001,and published in 2002 and just this year the college board started to request syllabi from AP teachers. I believe the issue of teacher training is addressed in the report, so I thought it only fair to say the College Board is attempting quality control. Appendix D addresses the lab issue I spoke of.
Scroll down for the chapters etc.
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10365#toc

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: observer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:30PM

observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For those interested here is the NRC report I
> mentioned. It was done in 2001,and published in
> 2002 and just this year the college board started
> to request syllabi from AP teachers. I believe
> the issue of teacher training is addressed in the
> report, so I thought it only fair to say the
> College Board is attempting quality control.
> Appendix D addresses the lab issue I spoke of.
> Scroll down for the chapters etc.
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10365#toc

P.S on the bottom right you will see all of the subjects that were studied, and a link for the main report which has all of the subjects, some 500 pages. Obviously click on whichever subject interests you/your student the most.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:35PM

floristoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, we KNEW two years ago we were targeted. Stu
> showed up at a PTA meeting to "feel the waters"
> and ended up in a shouting match. That's the
> reason why nobody in SB or the schools talked
> about it until recently with the charade of
> "community input". And, yes, we knew two years ago
> Fox Mill was going to feed into SL
> regardless....very sad! The only "surprise" is
> the neighborhoods that will be feeding into SL.
>

Thanks--yes, it is a surprise to those who weren't aware their community was going to be fed to SL. What is the point of FCPS advertising these 4 original scenarios if they had these communities in mind all along?...very sad. Talk about credibility of how the boundary study was carried out and how it was published. On another note, anybody, do you know when the Langley addition started and will that be completed this coming fall, also just like SL's?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:38PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader, does that mean that test scores
> reported at all FCPS schools are invalid, since
> all most certainly have test-takers who are not
> enrolled? ...
>
> I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.

Any public relations office is going to try to make their organization look good, that is their job. They selectively choose the statistics they wish to announce, and how they are presented. That is also their job.

On August 28, 2007 FCPS posted a news release about last year's SAT scores in which the last sentence of the first paragraph reads, "The average scores represent tests taken by FCPS seniors from the class of 2007 and include the scores of students who are not enrolled in FCPS but take the test in Fairfax County high schools."

One would assume this news release was prepared by FCPS's professional public affairs staff. What do YOU think they were trying to communicate?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:49PM

Pity the sanctimonious poster who has to deal with so many 'misstatements.' It must be painful to have to suffer through the effort it takes to provide so many examples to the less enlightened rubes on this site.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:52PM

Interesting Stat and graph to look at.

http://www.fcta.org/GIFSFC04ADV/FC04StaffTwo.html

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:53PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oldtimer makes an interesting post about most kids
> will do about as well regardless of the so-called
> quality / resources / enrollment of the school
> they go to. I tend to agree, having gone myself
> from a small town, 800-total enrollment, 30% going
> on to college high school to a graduate degree at
> a west coast ivy-league-sorta college. That beat
> USC in football this year. :)
>
> But...just curious...doesn't that argument bolster
> the case AGAINST redistricting? Why disrupt
> families, move around teachers, run double buses,
> when it won't really make a difference to the
> students' education? It seems like the
> justification to do this would be that it improves
> education, but you make a good case that it won't
> have much effect.



It would IF the reason for redistricting was simply to change the socio-economic makeup of the school, at least in SL's case.

The simple fact is that there aren't enough students to offer a full compliment of both academic, co-curricular, and extra-curricular activities relative to neighboring schools.

Since we've now learned (and no, I don't know why the facilities staff didn't enlighten us up front, clearly they are not marketing people), that a minimum of 1700 students are needed to develop an optimum compliment of courses, South Lakes students are not offered all the classes that they should be. It just isn't equitable.

It's similar to a university, where only one section of a course is offered and you have to schedule everything around that to get in the credits you need to graduate on time. Those courses, as most of us know, determined your entire schedule. Sadly for me, they always seemed to be at 8am or 4pm!

While I could not care any less that Westfield is the number one football team in the state (little wonder when they have 3100 kids), but is it really fair for the kids who can't participate at Westfield or conversely is it fair for the dinky 5 person wrestling team at South Lakes? We can say it's only about academics but we know it's not true. All the other activities are as important to either a child's confidence, self esteem, participation in social life, etc as academics. Sometimes the co- and extra-curricular activities entice a lackluster student to participate in a field they never would have chosen on their own. If they aren't important, then why are they offered?


We all want our kids to grow up to be well-rounded, smart (book and street-wise), independent (ie not living with us) FUNCTIONING adults.

I'm telling you people, this place, SL, is not a scary place. It's actually a pretty cool little school. Your kids will learn some lessons that I never
learned at Langley:

1) Good people come in levels and all packages: brown, white, black, asian, hispanic, african, rich, poor. Align yourself with the honest ones with integrity.
2) There are losers everywhere. Figure who they are and stay away. Don't do what they do.
3) Thank God every day that you have all the opportunities afforded to you by living in this country. Be proud of all the people who have immigrated here to get away from horrible lives and have become successful. This is what makes America great.

Ok, now I'm becoming a sap.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 18, 2008 01:57PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting Stat and graph to look at.
>
> http://www.fcta.org/GIFSFC04ADV/FC04StaffTwo.html

Interesting. Top-heavy admin, or extra staff needed to educate special needs populations (ESOL, ED, LD)? I'd love to know.

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Re: high school redistricting-private schools
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:01PM

SLVerity, This is a good point. I also know a number of families in the Langley pyramid who sent or plan to send their children to private school, including families whose students were admitted to TJ.

Another poster overstated the potential benefits of the IB Diploma (as compared to high scores in individual IB HL classes). He or she implied that IB Diploma holders automatically received advanced standing in multiple schools, a claim that is also made about Harvard College on the Annandale HS web site.

This link is to a Harvard College document showing that an IB Diploma holder must earn a 7 out of 7 on at least three HL exams in order to skip a year.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~advising/docs/advancedStanding0708.pdf

Of course, not many students want to skip a year of college, at least not at Harvard. However, this document may be more useful in offering guidance to current and future South Lakes parents about which AP courses get more and less respect by college faculty. If you read through the document, it contains a description of which AP courses are treated as full 1-year college courses, and which are either given no credit or only one-half year of credit.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> BTW, at Langley, socio-economic status could be a
> factor as well, since some of those families may
> be moving to private alternatives such as Madeira
> or Potomac.:) I know several families in the
> Langely district who have chosen private over
> public education. For some, public will never do.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:02PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, I looked at teh School Matters site again. I
> couldn't find any information on what they are
> basing their numbers, nothing at all. Could be
> about as accurate as Zillow.

Here is a link to the Site:

http://www.schoolmatters.com/schools.aspx/q/page=ab#SchoolMatters

Our Service
Since its inception in 2001, as an independent, analytical resource for state and education leaders, Standard & Poor’s (S&P) School Evaluation Services has evolved and become a valuable resource for parents.

In 2005, S&P began providing parents and taxpayers with an objective analysis of school and school district data via www.schoolmatters.com, a publicly-accessible, interactive website.

Due in large part to the popularity of the website, S&P has been able to engage parents across the country, all while continuing to serve as an objective source of information and analysis on our nation's public schools.

Our History
S&P Analysts have been involved in education research for many years, and have analyzed academic, financial, and demographic circumstances and trends in public schools at the local, state, and national levels. Based on their knowledge, S&P developed a service that looked beyond student performance and financial information and, instead, focused on a comprehensive review of all education information. From this idea, S&P created a new business unit, School Evaluation Services, and developed its unique Return on Resources framework to synthesize student performance, financial information, and community and school demographics to help better explain school and school district performance.

S&P believes that engaging each community around the strengths and challenges of its schools is one of the best ways to drive school improvement, which is why S&P makes its data and analysis available to the public on www.schoolmatters.com.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:02PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IBVeritas Wrote:
> > They removed it because IB credits are accepted
> at
> > nearly every single college in the US. ...
> >
> > ...(Remembering
> > that almost no college allows more than 24 such
> > credits)....
> >
> > Do you not believe that there is a 24-credit
> limit
> > on AP? Nobody seems to be concerned about that.
> It
> > works out to eight AP courses -- provided kids
> get
> > 3,4,5 on them (and MANY colleges don't give
> > credits for 3s).
>
> No, I do NOT believe there is a 24-limit credit,
> which, by the way, can be earned in just THREE
> (not eight) AP courses. Please cite the paragraph,
> for example, that gives a 24-credit limit at UVA.
> What I see is "Students may transfer a maximum of
> 60 non-UVa. credits to the University from a
> combination of testing programs and academic
> institutions."
>
> Go to
> http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/classe
> s/ap_credit.html
> A "4" each on AP US History, Art History, BC
> Calculus, and Physics earns 32 credits at UVA -
> more than a full YEAR for just FOUR AP exams.
>
> And never forget the difference between IB HL and
> IB SL. "INTERNATIONAL BACCALAUREATE CREDITS AT
> VIRGINIA TECH SUBSIDIARY LEVEL* For Students
> Entering Summer or Fall 2007 *A Maximum of 3
> semester credits (or 4 with lab) from subsidiary
> level courses are allowed, but only with an IB
> Diploma". Can you cite ANY credit from UVA and W&M
> for SL courses, the ones usually taken?
>
>

You are being selective in the websites you send people to. You can go to the IB website, too (and check out where you get lab credit and where you don't):

http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/classes/international_exams.html

Yes -- UVA has a 60 semester hour maxiumum -- for a combination of credit and exemption. But you also should send people to the site that explains that regardless of whether you get credit or exemptions, you have to take a minimum of 102 hours out of 120 AT THE UNIVERSITY in eight semesters, and it doesn't award double degrees:

http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/requirements/overview.html

This is for UVA. Other universities have other policies and many limit the number of credits that exempt you from the total required, to 24.

But you still haven't addressed the underlying question:

If you believe that the purpose of high school is to rack up college credits, then sending your kid to an AP school and having him or her load up with AP courses should be your mission. (Remembering that almost no college allows more than 24 such credits). But if you believe that one mission of high school is to prepare your child for the challenging and fascinating world of higher learning, then it will matter more to you that the courses at the school your child goes to will do that, regardless of the credit amassed.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:06PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Interesting Stat and graph to look at.
> >
> >
> http://www.fcta.org/GIFSFC04ADV/FC04StaffTwo.html
>
> Interesting. Top-heavy admin, or extra staff
> needed to educate special needs populations (ESOL,
> ED, LD)? I'd love to know.

Did you all know that the numbers of MMR and LD other mentally and physcially disabled kids the school system here -- and all over the country -- has to accommodate has skyrocketed in very recent years? Schools all over the country are struggling to figure out how to make their education work and still educate everyone else -- without asking for more money that hardly any community is willing to fork up for these disadvantaged kids.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Mike ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:09PM

Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Since we've now learned (and no, I don't know why
> the facilities staff didn't enlighten us up front,
> clearly they are not marketing people), that a
> minimum of 1700 students are needed to develop an
> optimum compliment of courses, South Lakes
> students are not offered all the classes that they
> should be. It just isn't equitable.

I don't know, this doesn't seem to address that SL apparently has their fair share of teachers and therefore, should be able to offer a fair share of classes.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:21PM

Mike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Old Timer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Since we've now learned (and no, I don't know
> why
> > the facilities staff didn't enlighten us up
> front,
> > clearly they are not marketing people), that a
> > minimum of 1700 students are needed to develop
> an
> > optimum compliment of courses, South Lakes
> > students are not offered all the classes that
> they
> > should be. It just isn't equitable.
>
> I don't know, this doesn't seem to address that SL
> apparently has their fair share of teachers and
> therefore, should be able to offer a fair share of
> classes.



Respectfully, I don't think going to each school's website and adding the number of teachers is NOT a very analytical way of determing what is and what isn't offered and the resources provided to student body.

The facilities staff should have done a better job of explaining the inequities at the Westfield meeting. I think they assumed that everyone would take them at their word, but they misjudged their audience.


I'm telling you that kids aren't able to take the classes they signed up for and that many sections and levels of courses have been combined.

Do you all really think it is some big conspiracy to screw you? Come on people - none of the participants here is that clever.

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Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 18, 2008 02:23PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BTW, I looked at teh School Matters site again.
> I
> > couldn't find any information on what they are
> > basing their numbers, nothing at all. Could be
> > about as accurate as Zillow.
>
> Here is a link to the Site:
>
> http://www.schoolmatters.com/schools.aspx/q/page=a
> b#SchoolMatters
>
> Our Service
> Since its inception in 2001, as an independent,
> analytical resource for state and education
> leaders, Standard & Poor’s (S&P) School Evaluation
> Services has evolved and become a valuable
> resource for parents.
>
> In 2005, S&P began providing parents and taxpayers
> with an objective analysis of school and school
> district data via www.schoolmatters.com, a
> publicly-accessible, interactive website.
>
> Due in large part to the popularity of the
> website, S&P has been able to engage parents
> across the country, all while continuing to serve
> as an objective source of information and analysis
> on our nation's public schools.
>
> Our History
> S&P Analysts have been involved in education
> research for many years, and have analyzed
> academic, financial, and demographic circumstances
> and trends in public schools at the local, state,
> and national levels. Based on their knowledge, S&P
> developed a service that looked beyond student
> performance and financial information and,
> instead, focused on a comprehensive review of all
> education information. From this idea, S&P created
> a new business unit, School Evaluation Services,
> and developed its unique Return on Resources
> framework to synthesize student performance,
> financial information, and community and school
> demographics to help better explain school and
> school district performance.
>
> S&P believes that engaging each community around
> the strengths and challenges of its schools is one
> of the best ways to drive school improvement,
> which is why S&P makes its data and analysis
> available to the public on www.schoolmatters.com.


OOOOKAAAAAYYY. Show me where it says what specific data and sources for the data they use. Zillow says the same type of thing about the "data" it uses, but it is known for wild inaccuracies. In other words, this is not specific enough.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:26PM

Forum Reader: I have a call into the UVA School of Arts and Sciences Undergraduate Registrar to get more information about all this credit business. The websites aren't telling the whole story and in some places are ambiguous. I'll post what I find out.

I'm not too worried about all this credit stuff, though. As someone said earlier, hardly anyone goes to college and "credits out" of an entire year, even if they could. There are too many department requirements, etc. for most kids to be able to do that. But I'll get as much info as I can. This is more a matter of curiosity for me, and not a matter that should impact the boundary debate.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:26PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
> .. Remembering
> that almost no college allows more than 24 such
> credits....

Can we stick to one question at a time? Before I spend any more time on this sub-issue, how many examples will it take for you to admit you are wrong? I do not intend to look up 3,000 colleges for you, but perhaps five in-state and five out-of-state.

[The military academies and the ivies consider themselves to be different, and I am leaving them out of this particular conversation.]

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:27PM

OK, so Oldtimer's other personality shows up and reminds us that, contrarty to his or her prior post that the school doesn't make a difference, in fact, the slate of elective classes offered, and the size of the wrestling teaam, does make a big difference in a child's education. I take it we should strike your previous comment that our kids would succeed in the DC public schools?

Or, is it just the case that it only matters what school you attend it if supports the propositon that SLHS should get more kids assigned to it?

Hard to keep up here.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:27PM

the numbers are correct

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:28PM

FR: I stand by the most important issue. If you ignore this, then you are dodging it -- or are trying to figure out how to answer it without sounding like a resume-building parent.

If you believe that the purpose of high school is to rack up college credits, then sending your kid to an AP school and having him or her load up with AP courses should be your mission. (Remembering that almost no college allows more than 24 such credits). But if you believe that one mission of high school is to prepare your child for the challenging and fascinating world of higher learning, then it will matter more to you that the courses at the school your child goes to will do that, regardless of the credit amassed.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:32PM

I know that there have been many statements along the lines of "we all pay taxes", and therefore we all deserve the same quality in our schools etc.

I was doing research, to find out the mix of owners (who pay Real Estate taxes) as well as the new .5% State Grantors Tax in effect as of Jan. 1st 2008 VS. renters (who do not pay Real Estate Taxes) or the State Grantors tax in the following Zip Codes: 20171 Oak Hill, 20190 Reston and 20191 Reston.

It seems that these 3 Zip Codes would make up the majority of the areas that would make up the new South Lakes Student population.

It would appear that there are quite a few more owners in 20171 vs 20190 and 20191, and therefore it could be argued that the families in the 20171 are infact paying significantly more in Taxes than their Reston counterparts.

http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Herndon_VA-72017100031.aspx

http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019000031.aspx

http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019100031.aspx

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:39PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
> Did you all know that the numbers of MMR and LD
> other mentally and physcially disabled kids the
> school system here -- and all over the country --
> has to accommodate has skyrocketed in very recent
> years? ...

Wrong again. No "skyrocketing in very recent years." Only a thirteen percent increase in the number of Level 2 and Preschool students over a sixyear period, and an eleven percent DROP in the number of services provided, including both Level 1 and Level 2, over the same six-year period.

Page 174 of the 2008 approved budget (available online - do you need the site?):
FY 2003 / FY 2004 / FY 2005 / FY 2006 / FY 2007 / FY 2008 (projected)
Special Ed Level 2 and Preschool 11,751 / 12,148 / 12,420 / 12,665 / 13,265 / 13,314
Total Spec Ed Services (Level 1&2) 47,494 / 48,249 / 48,701 / 41,742 / 43,115 / 42,396

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:40PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, so Oldtimer's other personality shows up and
> reminds us that, contrarty to his or her prior
> post that the school doesn't make a difference, in
> fact, the slate of elective classes offered, and
> the size of the wrestling teaam, does make a big
> difference in a child's education. I take it we
> should strike your previous comment that our kids
> would succeed in the DC public schools?
>
> Or, is it just the case that it only matters what
> school you attend it if supports the propositon
> that SLHS should get more kids assigned to it?
>
> Hard to keep up here.



The "quality" of the specific school is FFX county doesn't matter. It is not relevant to whether or not your child will be successful in life if they are able to compete on the wrestling team - GENERALLY. This could determine whether they get a wrestling scholarship, however, but IN GENERAL, they will be successful if you are successful.

What I'm saying is that it isn't fair for the schools to not equally offer the same thing.

You understand what I'm saying but want to belittle and nitpick. That's unfortunate.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:46PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know that there have been many statements along
> the lines of "we all pay taxes", and therefore we
> all deserve the same quality in our schools etc.
>
> I was doing research, to find out the mix of
> owners (who pay Real Estate taxes) as well as the
> new .5% State Grantors Tax in effect as of Jan.
> 1st 2008 VS. renters (who do not pay Real Estate
> Taxes) or the State Grantors tax in the following
> Zip Codes: 20171 Oak Hill, 20190 Reston and 20191
> Reston.
>
> It seems that these 3 Zip Codes would make up the
> majority of the areas that would make up the new
> South Lakes Student population.
>
> It would appear that there are quite a few more
> owners in 20171 vs 20190 and 20191, and therefore
> it could be argued that the families in the 20171
> are infact paying significantly more in Taxes than
> their Reston counterparts.
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Herndon_VA-7201
> 7100031.aspx
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
> 000031.aspx
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
> 100031.aspx



Hmmm, do you really want to take this tack?

Commercial owners also pay real estate taxes and pay significantly more than homeowners. Also, you may want to include the areas that you have neglected to include: there are areas of 20194, 22182 and other zip codes with high value homes that feed into South Lakes as well.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Mike ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:47PM

Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Respectfully, I don't think going to each school's
> website and adding the number of teachers is NOT a
> very analytical way of determing what is and what
> isn't offered and the resources provided to
> student body.

What's your suggestion? I only brought this up as a starting point for further analysis, not as any kind of conclusive proof. Equal access to classes is being cited as a major reason why redistricting must occur, yet apparently, no one has done a side by side comparison of what is actually offered and determined the real reasons behind any inequities.

My question still stands, Given that SL has its fair share of teachers what is the reason it cannot offer its fair share of classes? Does it in fact offer a fair share of classes as compared to the other schools? If your answer is that there are no students to take the classes, then what is the need for the classes in the first place? If for some reason, you still need more teachers, then perhaps adding teachers and not students is a potential solution?

>
> The facilities staff should have done a better job
> of explaining the inequities at the Westfield
> meeting. I think they assumed that everyone would
> take them at their word, but they misjudged their
> audience.

I totally agree with you.

>
>
> I'm telling you that kids aren't able to take the
> classes they signed up for and that many sections
> and levels of courses have been combined.

That's great but I believe the SB should perform a detailed analysis of this and present their findings as opposed to basing decisions on individual opinions, innuendo, and other unsubstantiated "facts".


>
> Do you all really think it is some big conspiracy
> to screw you?

I never said that. You don't really believe people are getting screwed do you?
I think the SL people want something. The question is, whether they are really entitled to it or not.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:55PM

You bring up a very good point Old Timer.

You said "Respectfully, I don't think going to each school's website and adding the number of teachers is NOT a very analytical way of determing what is and what isn't offered and the resources provided to student body."

"The facilities staff should have done a better job of explaining the inequities at the Westfield meeting. I think they assumed that everyone would take them at their word, but they misjudged their audience."


"I'm telling you that kids aren't able to take the classes they signed up for and that many sections and levels of courses have been combined."

"Do you all really think it is some big conspiracy to screw you? Come on people - none of the participants here is that clever."

I do believe that the School Board really did underestimate the backlash that this Boundary Study has created. I do not think that they realized how much data is available on line, and how deeply the public is going to dig into every SB document, newspaper article, budget screw up, the Stu Gibson Scandal with the VDOE, past CIP miscalculations, the South County/Hayfield debacle, the fact that the Coppermine ES boundary study that is coming next year etc. etc etc.

I believe that with the current state of the local and national economy, the reported $100,000,000 shortfall in the School budget, all of the new taxes being levied for Transportation etc., that there is a very good chance that this Redistricting is going to be halted.

The County Board of supervisors is going to have a very tough sell on raising taxes, when almost all homeowners have seen significant increases in property taxes over the last 4 years. Most of us have now seen at least a 10% to 15% drop in the market value of our homes in the the 18 months, and there is no sign that we are at the bottom.

I know that many families and tax payers are disgusted and fed up with the arrogance of our elected school board members, and we will certainly not be voting to give additional monies to a County that has basically pissed away 4 years of the greatest tax income revenue ever generated in this County.

For those that are against this Redistricting, please let the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors know that you will not be in favor of ANY NEW TAXES, until our elected SB Members can be held accountable for the gross waste of our previous tax dollars.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 18, 2008 02:56PM

FR: You don't consider a 13% increase in high-needs kids over a few years skyrocketing, then what is? These kids need a LOT of attention. Why would you want to argue this point??

Definition, from FCPS: Level 2 Services - Level 2 services means the provision of special education and related services to
children with disabilities for 50 percent or more of the instructional school day (excluding intermission
for meals). The time that a child receives special education services is calculated on the basis of special
education services described in the individualized education program, rather than the location of services.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:00PM

Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know that there have been many statements
> along
> > the lines of "we all pay taxes", and therefore
> we
> > all deserve the same quality in our schools
> etc.
> >
> > I was doing research, to find out the mix of
> > owners (who pay Real Estate taxes) as well as
> the
> > new .5% State Grantors Tax in effect as of Jan.
> > 1st 2008 VS. renters (who do not pay Real
> Estate
> > Taxes) or the State Grantors tax in the
> following
> > Zip Codes: 20171 Oak Hill, 20190 Reston and
> 20191
> > Reston.
> >
> > It seems that these 3 Zip Codes would make up
> the
> > majority of the areas that would make up the
> new
> > South Lakes Student population.
> >
> > It would appear that there are quite a few more
> > owners in 20171 vs 20190 and 20191, and
> therefore
> > it could be argued that the families in the
> 20171
> > are infact paying significantly more in Taxes
> than
> > their Reston counterparts.
> >
> >
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Herndon_VA-7201
>
> > 7100031.aspx
> >
> >
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
>
> > 000031.aspx
> >
> >
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
>
> > 100031.aspx
>
>
>
> Hmmm, do you really want to take this tack?
>
> Commercial owners also pay real estate taxes and
> pay significantly more than homeowners. Also, you
> may want to include the areas that you have
> neglected to include: there are areas of 20194,
> 22182 and other zip codes with high value homes
> that feed into South Lakes as well.



I am under the impression that 22182, 20194 and other unmentioned zip codes make up a very small percent of the South Lakes enrollment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:00PM

FR: And by the way, isn't it a bit of a question as to why, with the numbers of special needs kids rising, the services are dropping? Makes you really wonder about some priorities.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:02PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
> FR: I stand by the most important issue. ...
>
> (Remembering
> that almost no college allows more than 24 such
> credits

To me "the most important issue" is getting the facts straight, whether the facts relate to test scores, overcrowding, budget, or other such data. Once we can agree to the facts, then we might be able to discuss philosophy. In contrast, it is difficult to hold a rational discussion with irrational people.

This is at least the third time you have copied that same "24 credit" sentence.

Next we can address your "skyrocketing in very recent years" comment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NotSoFast ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:02PM

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=92497&paper=0&cat=109

Another Reston Connection article supportive of SLPTSA. Has anyone ever noticed that the same people get all the quotes? Come on arent there more of you out there in favor of this I am sick of seeing the same few people do all the talking. After reading the Connection (Reston Connection) I would have thought the entire world supported the redistricting. Oh except for us racists, that dont want to go to school there because they have black and hispanic people. Just one time, I would love to read a quote or see an interview with one of the people the people the SLPTSA says the rest of us are scared of. Give me a break. You are all OLD WHITE women who want more white kids in your school and that is the bottom line. You are disgusting biggots. You have no faith in your own school yet you expect it from us.

"I think it is bigotry and racism," said Caroline Hemenway. Hemenway lives in the Oakton district but has decided to pupil place her daughter into South Lakes. Caroline Hemenway SLPTSA MEMBER White Person

I know a kid who was unable to take public speaking because there weren't enough people. He wants to be an actor," said Susan Sather, who has a freshman at South Lakes. PTSA Member Hunters Wood Elementary Reston White Person

That’s kind of typical for this sort of situation,” said Maria Allen, vice president of the South Lakes High School Parent Teacher Student Association. “The truth of the matter is that a lot of affluent people don’t want to send their kids to schools that have a large low-income population.”
VP SLPTSA White Person

Liz Vanderburg White person

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:09PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR: You don't consider a 13% increase in
> high-needs kids over a few years skyrocketing...

If your pay rose by 13% in the last six years, about 2% annually, would you say your salary is "skyrocketing?"

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:15PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR: And by the way, isn't it a bit of a question
> as to why, with the numbers of special needs kids
> rising, the services are dropping? ...

Interesting question, a topic that should be examined more carefully, but not on this particular thread.

[In this context "Number of Students" applies only to Level 2 and preschool while the "services" number applies to Level 1 AND 2 students. However, that does not address what you are asking.]

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:19PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I am under the impression that 22182, 20194 and
> other unmentioned zip codes make up a very small
> percent of the South Lakes enrollment.


While it may be the case that they make up a small percentage of enrollment, they pay a significant amount of taxes which will impact your averages.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting - College Credits
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:23PM

IBVeritas and Forum Reader,

In my experience, most high-achieving students want to spend four years in college, even if graduating in three years would save their parents money. They usually end up at a college with many interesting classes and activities. Why graduate a year early when you're having so much fun?

The primary benefit of taking AP or IB High Level courses for many of these students is that they can skip the large, impersonal, introductory classes in one or more subjects. Instead, they use their IB HL or AP scores to place into typically smaller and more advanced classes, which are less likely to be taught in part by graduate or undergraduate assistants.

Starting college by taking more advanced classes has other benefits. Students who place out of introductory classes sometimes do double majors. A few earn an MA in their "fourth" year, by taking graduate courses during college. Professors notice these students, and offer them research jobs more readily.

IB and AP both can do an excellent job of preparing students for college. For a student who is unlikely to skip many introductory classes in college, these two programs have different pros and cons depending on the student's specific aptitudes and interests.

AP and IB programs differ in the extent to which they make it possible for students to place out of introductory classes. This may be irrelevant to some students, and very important to others. But for the reasons described above, these benefits extend beyond saving money on tuition by rushing through college.

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR:
> If you believe that the purpose of high school is
> to rack up college credits, then sending your kid
> to an AP school and having him or her load up with
> AP courses should be your mission. (Remembering
> that almost no college allows more than 24 such
> credits). But if you believe that one mission of
> high school is to prepare your child for the
> challenging and fascinating world of higher
> learning, then it will matter more to you that the
> courses at the school your child goes to will do
> that, regardless of the credit amassed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:40PM

I think this comment missed my point, so I'll try to be clearer:

"The "quality" of the specific school is FFX county doesn't matter. It is not relevant to whether or not your child will be successful in life if they are able to compete on the wrestling team - GENERALLY. This could determine whether they get a wrestling scholarship, however, but IN GENERAL, they will be successful if you are successful.

What I'm saying is that it isn't fair for the schools to not equally offer the same thing.

You understand what I'm saying but want to belittle and nitpick. That's unfortunate."

My point is that there should be some sort of logical basis for this discussion, rather than cherry picking anecdotes, facts and opinions that happen to support one's preconceived point of view, whether that view is one should stay where they are, or that view is that people should be moved into South Lakes.

And that that end, I agreed with you when you said the opportunities at a specific school didn't make that much difference in how well one's education prepares them for later life. I was then surprised to see you stating that having differences was unfair, without offering any reason for saying that, when it directly contradicts your previous note that those differences are insignificant in the long run.

The offerings in Fairfax schools differ in detail, with some of the largest differences betwen AP and IB school offerings. Is that difference unfair? Some say yes, some say no. I think the differences are pretty small for the most part, and haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Opinions, yes. Evidence, no. Westfield offers Shakespeare and Aerospace classes, I believe uniquely in the county. Does it matter? I think not. If it does matter, why should we take kids from Westfield? South Lakes won't offer those classes even with the redistricting. Similar comments apply to other types of classes...the electives at South Lakes will demonstrably get you into Princeton, as well as a bunch of other places. I don't see the problem of electives as being that critical, but I would be interested in seeing a list of what South Lakes will offer. Nobody has answered that, and its getting to be amusing watching the SL fans arguing they are under-served without being able to articulate a) what they are missing or b) what they will be getting. Here's something that may prove useful to consider, its from a research report into school size:

'Many educators past and present have argued for large schools on grounds of curriculum quality. Following James Conant's original line of reasoning, they argue that larger schools can offer more numerous and more varied curricular offerings than small schools can. Therefore, goes the argument, operating small schools with more limited curricula is unfair to the students who attend them.

While this has a certain common sense appeal, examination of the research reveals that there simply is no reliable relationship between school size and curriculum quality (Fowler and Walberg 1991; Gregory 1992; Howley 1994, 1996; McGuire 1989; Melnick, et al. 1986; Monk 1987, 1992; Monk and Haller 1993; Nachtigal 1992; Pittman and Haughwout 1987; Rogers 1987; Williams 1990). For one thing, researchers have found that "it takes a lot of bigness to add a little variety"—that is, "on the average a 100% increase in enrollment yields only a 17% increase in variety of offerings" (Pittman and Haughwout, 337). Moreover, "[t]he strength of the relationship between school size and curricular offerings diminishes as schools become larger. Increases in the size of very small schools are associated with greater curricular gains than increases in the size of larger schools" (Monk 1992).

For another thing, researchers have found that the allegedly richer curriculum that larger schools are able to support tend to be made up, not of higher-level courses in, say, math or foreign languages, but rather of additional introductory courses in non-core areas. For still another, investigators have found that only five to twelve percent of the students in large schools avail themselves of the extra courses these schools typically offer (McGuire 1989; Monk 1992; Rogers 1987).

Finally, Monk, in his 1987 study of the size-curriculum relationship, concludes that, "it is possible to offer at the 400 pupil level a curriculum that compares quite favorably in terms of breadth and depth with curriculums offered in much larger settings" (27)."

Schools in Fairfax county vary significantly in size. That affects the number and type of classes and extracurriculars they offer. That's true now, and it will still be true after the redistricting. Is that "fair"? Does it matter? It has been a fact of life for years, yet schools continue to perform well. The "1700" enrollment figure was reverse engineered to meet current circumstances. As you hinted in your first post, other jurisdictions are also able to offer a satisfying high school education experience even with schools of varying sizes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting - College Credits
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:41PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
> In my experience, most high-achieving students
> want to spend four years in college, even if
> graduating in three years would save their parents
> money. They usually end up at a college with many
> interesting classes and activities. Why graduate
> a year early when you're having so much fun?
>
> The primary benefit of taking AP or IB High Level
> courses for many of these students is that they
> can skip the large, impersonal, introductory
> classes in one or more subjects. Instead, they
> use their IB HL or AP scores to place into
> typically smaller and more advanced classes, which
> are less likely to be taught in part by graduate
> or undergraduate assistants.
>
> Starting college by taking more advanced classes
> has other benefits. Students who place out of
> introductory classes sometimes do double majors.
> A few earn an MA in their "fourth" year, by taking
> graduate courses during college. Professors
> notice these students, and offer them research
> jobs more readily.
>
> IB and AP both can do an excellent job of
> preparing students for college. For a student who
> is unlikely to skip many introductory classes in
> college, these two programs have different pros
> and cons depending on the student's specific
> aptitudes and interests.
>
> AP and IB programs differ in the extent to which
> they make it possible for students to place out of
> introductory classes. This may be irrelevant to
> some students, and very important to others. But
> for the reasons described above, these benefits
> extend beyond saving money on tuition by rushing
> through college.
>
----------
I agree, with my only stipulation being to emphasize the differece between HL and SL courses.

Taking college level courses (both AP and IB-HL) while in high school prepares you for college level work.

AP is just that: Advance Placement. Doing well on AP and IB-HL (and SAT II) EXAMS creates some possibilities while in college.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 03:51PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
> Yes -- UVA has a 60 semester hour maxiumum -- for
> a combination of credit and exemption. But you
> also should send people to the site that explains
> that regardless of whether you get credit or
> exemptions, you have to take a minimum of 102
> hours out of 120 AT THE UNIVERSITY in eight
> semesters, and it doesn't award double degrees:
>
----------
Here we go again.
http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/major/index.html#a3

"Double Major. You may major in two subjects, in which case the application for a degree must be approved by both departments or interdepartmental programs. Students who double major must submit at least 18 credits in each major; these credits may not be duplicated in the other major. "

--------

http://artsandsciences.virginia.edu/college/classes/transfer_credit.html#fulfillingRequirements

Fulfilling Degree Requirements. .... Only 60 credits of transfer from other universities, foreign study, advanced placement, or dual enrollment may count toward the 120 credits needed for the B.A. or B.S. degree in the College. ...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:05PM

floristoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, we KNEW two years ago we were targeted. Stu
> showed up at a PTA meeting to "feel the waters"
> and ended up in a shouting match. That's the
> reason why nobody in SB or the schools talked
> about it until recently with the charade of
> "community input". And, yes, we knew two years ago
> Fox Mill was going to feed into SL
> regardless....very sad! The only "surprise" is
> the neighborhoods that will be feeding into SL....

Just as Aldrin and Forestville knew they would not be involved. Why didn't Floris and Fox Mill complain about the money being spent on the Westfield and Langley addition to the at-large school board members as well as the Board of Supervisors and all the way up the political food chain? Nevermind, I guess they're as powerless as the rest of us. FCPS sticks essential bond projects on the same referendums as pork without really defining scope of the projects to the voting public.

My guess is they were cut off at the pass by the school board. No wonder pleas for more funding are disregarded by the state. Fairfax County will never get more money with this sort of escapade and the South County middle school AFTER we paid for an addition at Lake Braddock. There are some very poor areas in Virginia and it is not uncommon for states to re-allocate funds based on ability to pay. Thanks Stu. Is he still the Legislative committee person?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:21PM

I and others have asked the question of the South Lakes supporters on multiple posts, to please state Valid benefits of the Redistricting to South Lakes for the children who are being pulled from Oakton, Madison and Westfield.

What I hear are many replies regarding the Benefits for South Lakes parents and students, but nothing about any real upside benefits for Floris and Fox Mill and Madison students who are being asked to leave the schools that have been a part of their neighborhoods for many years.

Please give some honest feedback on why you feel that the families and children in these affected communities would want to embrace this change?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:29PM

I am by no means an SL supporter but here is my juandice view...

Benefits -
Easier to get to college from South Lakes rather than Oakton or Westfield - less competition
Improved self defense and street smarts skills
Easier to make a sports team except basketball
Watch HDTV in the halls between class

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: What next? ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:33PM

I get the sense that the tide has turned and that this study will now be stopped. There won't ever be a county wide study (too complex) and the promise of a magnet program will be soon forgotten once the dust settles (no money, not in the plan). It will be interesting to see what happens then. From the perspective of a future SL parent, this process has been a mess from the start.

The taxpayers will have paid for a state of the art, half empty building by the time this is through.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Madison ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:35PM

Navy Parent,
Sorry I took so long to reply. At my school the only class we had with the “base school” kids was gym, and only one of the GT classes had gym with them. The other two GT classes had class together. Music classes were not mixed but things like chorus, band and orchestra were. If you have any other questions I’d be happy to answer them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Madison ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:38PM

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Watch HDTV in the halls between class


So, I go to SL and I haven’t seen these HDTV's anywhere. Do you mean the screen in the activities office that says when sports practices are? It’s not that exciting to watch…

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Padre ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:42PM

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am by no means an SL supporter but here is my
> juandice view...
>
> Benefits -
> Easier to get to college from South Lakes rather
> than Oakton or Westfield - less competition
> Improved self defense and street smarts skills
> Easier to make a sports team except basketball
> Watch HDTV in the halls between class

more heavy lifting from the always objective wordly word

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 04:46PM

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> floristoo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, we KNEW two years ago we were targeted.
> Stu
> > showed up at a PTA meeting to "feel the waters"
> > and ended up in a shouting match. That's the
> > reason why nobody in SB or the schools talked
> > about it until recently with the charade of
> > "community input". And, yes, we knew two years
> ago
> > Fox Mill was going to feed into SL
> > regardless....very sad! The only "surprise" is
> > the neighborhoods that will be feeding into
> SL....
>
> Just as Aldrin and Forestville knew they would not
> be involved. Why didn't Floris and Fox Mill
> complain about the money being spent on the
> Westfield and Langley addition to the at-large
> school board members as well as the Board of
> Supervisors and all the way up the political food
> chain? Nevermind, I guess they're as powerless as
> the rest of us. FCPS sticks essential bond
> projects on the same referendums as pork without
> really defining scope of the projects to the
> voting public.
>
> My guess is they were cut off at the pass by the
> school board. No wonder pleas for more funding
> are disregarded by the state. Fairfax County will
> never get more money with this sort of escapade
> and the South County middle school AFTER we paid
> for an addition at Lake Braddock. There are some
> very poor areas in Virginia and it is not uncommon
> for states to re-allocate funds based on ability
> to pay. Thanks Stu. Is he still the Legislative
> committee person?

Why would those of us who live in Floris, question or complain about the addition that was built on to Westfield? We needed the space, and we were certainly not aware that the SB was contemplating yet another resistricting for the Floris Area. I believe most of us in Floris took Stu Gibson at his word after we were pulled out of Oakton, when he said that our future was in the West. After the trauma that was experienced with the last RD, we never thought they would touch Floris again. It would not occur to logical people that the SB would expand a school to a capacity of 3100, only to turn around and say that the ideal size of a school should be 2000.

As far as Langley addition, quite frankly, I was not even aware that it was being built, until the RD came up. Along these same lines, I was not really aware of the fact that $60,000,000 was being spent to renovate SL. If I had been more aware, I would have been asking questings 3 or 4 years ago, as to why so much money was being spent on a school that had such a small student body. Maybe had more people in West Fairfax been involved in that decision, the building could have been better adapted to a magnet type facility.

Again, if I had any idea that the renovation to SL was being done in preparation for a RD of Floris and Fox Mill to SL, I and many others would have been more involved.

What I have learned from this RD process, is that it is the duty of every taxpayer in the County to watch the SB like Hawks, document everything, and hold these people accountable for everything they do.

It is very important that anyone and everyone try to speak on the 30th, 31st of January and Feb. 9th, and let the School Board know that we are not just going to lay down like sheep. There are many questions that need to be answered. We pay "them" to work for and represent the majority.

The Floris and Fox Mill parents did not create any of the conditions that have brought South Lakes to its current condition, and it is grossly unfair to ask those parents to now pull their children out of Nationally recognized top schools and put them in a school which by the admission of the SL parents and supporters, is struggling.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:02PM

What next? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get the sense that the tide has turned and that
> this study will now be stopped. There won't ever
> be a county wide study (too complex) and the
> promise of a magnet program will be soon forgotten
> once the dust settles (no money, not in the plan).
> It will be interesting to see what happens then.
> From the perspective of a future SL parent, this
> process has been a mess from the start.
>
> The taxpayers will have paid for a state of the
> art, half empty building by the time this is
> through.

I agree with you that the tide may be turning. The overwhelming opinion (not withstanding the 15 or 20 SL posters) seems to be a halt of this current study, and have a better and more balanced study in the future.

This budget shortfall could not have come at a worse time for the SB, and it will be very difficult to persuede the public to give more money when there has has been such wasteful spending in the past. It is easy to talk about the "good for all" when everyone is flush with money, but when times are tough, (and times are very tough) people will start to vote with their wallets.

People are already not happy that the values of their homes falling, and the thought that the value may fall even more due to a decision to switch to a less desirable school is a great motivator to do everything possible to stop this RD.

The key will be to give the SB and Staff a way to drop this study and still "save face", so that they can stay in office. Let those of us who are against this RD help the SB try to save face.

It is important that everyone who feels that the SB has not been good stewards of our resources, let this be know to the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: VaDriver ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:09PM

Word wrote:
Benefits -
Easier to get to college from South Lakes rather than Oakton or Westfield - less competition
Improved self defense and street smarts skills
Easier to make a sports team except basketball
Watch HDTV in the halls between class
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Word!! Don’t hold back now!

..new plasma screens don’t fit in with that Global Green IB concept they have going on up there. Wonder what the big IB Bosses in Wales would say if they knew!

Do you know if the screens are the 42 inch or 50 inch....I have the 50inch Plasma...its great for HD.!! Expensive though!!! But, who cares! Just taxpayers money!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:19PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know that there have been many statements along
> the lines of "we all pay taxes", and therefore we
> all deserve the same quality in our schools etc.
>
> I was doing research, to find out the mix of
> owners (who pay Real Estate taxes) as well as the
> new .5% State Grantors Tax in effect as of Jan.
> 1st 2008 VS. renters (who do not pay Real Estate
> Taxes) or the State Grantors tax in the following
> Zip Codes: 20171 Oak Hill, 20190 Reston and 20191
> Reston.
>
> It seems that these 3 Zip Codes would make up the
> majority of the areas that would make up the new
> South Lakes Student population.
>
> It would appear that there are quite a few more
> owners in 20171 vs 20190 and 20191, and therefore
> it could be argued that the families in the 20171
> are infact paying significantly more in Taxes than
> their Reston counterparts.
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Herndon_VA-7201
> 7100031.aspx
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
> 000031.aspx
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
> 100031.aspx

This is one of the more famous fallacies in urban government.

Renters pay real estate taxes. It's part of their rent!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stephanie ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:34PM

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the young South Lakes posters wrote "I do
> think this has a little to do with economic
> status" as to the conflict that is at work here.
>
>
> I "think" it has allot to do with with what will
> happen if two groups of people are "forced" to
> attend the same school. The conflict over
> economic status will come from both the haves and
> the have-nots.
>
> In fact, don't think the level of infractions at
> South Lakes, in this case, will remain at 48 or so
> each year. I think the infractions will INCREASE.
>
>
> There will be "jeolousy." There will be a sense
> of "turf." There will be "us" versus "them."
> Posters are doing that now here on this thread.
> What do you think will happen amongst the
> teenagers?
>
>
> I "think" when anyone forces another group of
> people to move and a significant portion of that
> group does not want to go, you are "inviting"
> allot of trouble.
>
> I understand why folks at South Lakes want more
> students. They want more classes. They want more
> athletes. They want more "advantaged" students
> at their school which should pull up the scores on
> SOLs, SATs, etc.
>
> However, in my humble view, if you force people to
> buy a product that they don't want you will have
> disatisfied customers --and allot of them. You do
> not want lots of disatisfied customers. You want
> happy cheery customers who come back for more.
> You want people knocking down the door to get into
> South Lakes.
>
> My Two Cents

FME Parent,

I commend you for speaking the truth, which is something I think some of us have avoided. Although you may re-read your posts thinking you have said nothing wrong though, many of us already at South Lakes might feel differently.
I've grown up a spoiled brat. This I will not lie about. I have been given almost everything I've needed in life to succeed and then more. Let me tell you something as a student from South Lakes who comes from probably the "have" group that you refer to. I have never in my life felt that students seperate themselves based upon the economic status they are categorized under. Why? Because they, as you seem to have not yet realized, understand that they have no control what jobs their parents work, and how much money their parents make. Some of the students at South Lakes know they are fortuntate to just recieve dinner on the table every night, where as others at our school look forward to a new car on their sixteenth birthday. No matter what you would like to think, we work together as a school, we always have. In more ways then you probably realize South Lakes is exactly likes the schools that look down upon us. We have our "rich" students, we have our "poor" students, but what makes us different then others is we do not classify ourselves upon the economic status we live under, simply because of the name we inherited. We branch out and are open to others who are more and less fortunate then ourselves, beacuse they offer us the oppurtunity to learn. I have learned a great deal from South Lakes, but if anything is most important its that people should always be offered the oppurtunity to be taken by who they are and not what they possess or look like. And to be honest I think that is what this entire redistricting is about. So what if your child isn't going to Oakton highschool? So freaking what! Why does money matter so much? Maybe you don't realize how snobby and selfish it sounds to say "I don't want my child sacraficed to see if rich and poor people can get along!" Because guess what? THEY CAN! South Lakes would not exist if the following wearn't possible. Trust me, if you are worried about something don't worry about the students at South Lakes because we won't care. Now I can't speak for you however. But just think about this, while you comprehend if students can get along based upon the economic title they live under. There are students in Africa who are not offered an education, who would die for an education, a change. And we sit here whining over wether or not this school is better then another when they both work under one of the best school systems this country has ever seen! Think about that, think about that....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:48PM

Stephanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We branch out and are open
> to others who are more and less fortunate then
> ourselves, beacuse they offer us the oppurtunity
> to learn. I have learned a great deal from South
> Lakes, but if anything is most important its that
> people should always be offered the oppurtunity to
> be taken by who they are and not what they possess
> or look like. And to be honest I think that is
> what this entire redistricting is about.

That was so poignant in many ways, Stephanie.
And to all of you who dismiss McNair ES, listen to Stephanie.

> There are students in Africa who are
> not offered an education, who would die for an
> education, a change. And we sit here whining over
> wether or not this school is better then another
> when they both work under one of the best school
> systems this country has ever seen! Think about
> that, think about that....

I really like your perspective.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: VaDriver ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:51PM

"Renters pay real estate taxes. It's part of their rent!"

Yes, valid point.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:53PM

This is a very nice post Stephanie, and I would expect that your parents are very proud of you for having such a great attitude. I have tried to instill the same values in my children, as they experience the same issues with the "haves" and the "havenots". They are blessed to be able to enjoy the life that they have.

In any event, your point seems to be the same as most of the SL supporters, in that if people do not want to attend South lakes, they are either an elitist, a racist or a snob. Why can you and other SL supporters not understand that just because families do not want to leave their ties to their current schools, it does not make them any of the above.

I am pleased that you are so fond of your school, and it is great to see that so many of your fellow students feel the same way. School pride and spirit are what high school should be about.

Please do not be so closed minded, as to assume that other people do not have the same pride and spirit in Oakton, Westfield or Madison.Our children take the same pride in their schools as you and the fellow SL students do.

Not wanting to attend South Lakes does not make anyone wrong.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Reston Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 05:58PM

I am not sure what you were trying to say?? Were you implying SL pyramid residents did't play their fair share of property taxes? Do you have any data to back that up? What does this have to do with the boundary change? You are in the Real Estate business, you should know better Reston has many lake front properties and million dollar homes feeding to SL.

You are missing the point. We are talking about public education for the FFX county. Langley pyramid probably pay more taxes than others. You think it would be fair that Langley gets millions more than other schools?


Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know that there have been many statements along
> the lines of "we all pay taxes", and therefore we
> all deserve the same quality in our schools etc.
>
> I was doing research, to find out the mix of
> owners (who pay Real Estate taxes) as well as the
> new .5% State Grantors Tax in effect as of Jan.
> 1st 2008 VS. renters (who do not pay Real Estate
> Taxes) or the State Grantors tax in the following
> Zip Codes: 20171 Oak Hill, 20190 Reston and 20191
> Reston.
>
> It seems that these 3 Zip Codes would make up the
> majority of the areas that would make up the new
> South Lakes Student population.
>
> It would appear that there are quite a few more
> owners in 20171 vs 20190 and 20191, and therefore
> it could be argued that the families in the 20171
> are infact paying significantly more in Taxes than
> their Reston counterparts.
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Herndon_VA-7201
> 7100031.aspx
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
> 000031.aspx
>
> http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/Reston_VA-72019
> 100031.aspx

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Reston Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 06:12PM

Stephanie,

What a wonderful post! It appears that the education you get from South Lakes has served you well.


Stephanie Wrote:
> FME Parent,
>
> I commend you for speaking the truth, which is
> something I think some of us have avoided.
> Although you may re-read your posts thinking you
> have said nothing wrong though, many of us already
> at South Lakes might feel differently.
> I've grown up a spoiled brat. This I will not lie
> about. I have been given almost everything I've
> needed in life to succeed and then more. Let me
> tell you something as a student from South Lakes
> who comes from probably the "have" group that you
> refer to. I have never in my life felt that
> students seperate themselves based upon the
> economic status they are categorized under. Why?
> Because they, as you seem to have not yet
> realized, understand that they have no control
> what jobs their parents work, and how much money
> their parents make. Some of the students at South
> Lakes know they are fortuntate to just recieve
> dinner on the table every night, where as others
> at our school look forward to a new car on their
> sixteenth birthday. No matter what you would like
> to think, we work together as a school, we always
> have. In more ways then you probably realize South
> Lakes is exactly likes the schools that look down
> upon us. We have our "rich" students, we have our
> "poor" students, but what makes us different then
> others is we do not classify ourselves upon the
> economic status we live under, simply because of
> the name we inherited. We branch out and are open
> to others who are more and less fortunate then
> ourselves, beacuse they offer us the oppurtunity
> to learn. I have learned a great deal from South
> Lakes, but if anything is most important its that
> people should always be offered the oppurtunity to
> be taken by who they are and not what they possess
> or look like. And to be honest I think that is
> what this entire redistricting is about. So what
> if your child isn't going to Oakton highschool? So
> freaking what! Why does money matter so much?
> Maybe you don't realize how snobby and selfish it
> sounds to say "I don't want my child sacraficed to
> see if rich and poor people can get along!"
> Because guess what? THEY CAN! South Lakes would
> not exist if the following wearn't possible. Trust
> me, if you are worried about something don't worry
> about the students at South Lakes because we won't
> care. Now I can't speak for you however. But just
> think about this, while you comprehend if students
> can get along based upon the economic title they
> live under. There are students in Africa who are
> not offered an education, who would die for an
> education, a change. And we sit here whining over
> wether or not this school is better then another
> when they both work under one of the best school
> systems this country has ever seen! Think about
> that, think about that....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 18, 2008 06:12PM

I am under the impression that all schools in Fairfax County get equal funding, although some may get more based on special needs or programs. I doubt that Langley, Westfield, Oakton or Madison get any more funding that South Lakes.

I am sure that Langley residents are paying more in taxes, because the homes are considerabley more expensive.

Reston does have some beautiful water front homes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer-marketing IB? Carson? ()
Date: January 18, 2008 06:25PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am under the impression that all schools in
> Fairfax County get equal funding, although some
> may get more based on special needs or programs. I
> doubt that Langley, Westfield, Oakton or Madison
> get any more funding that South Lakes.
>
> I am sure that Langley residents are paying more
> in taxes, because the homes are considerabley more
> expensive.
>
> Reston does have some beautiful water front homes.

Dr Dale put in new staffing formulas during his tenure that use weights for ESOL, FRPM, etc. That meant resources should follow students not programs. Did they get rid of any? That is separate from special ed staffing and if pecial ed students are in a regualr ed class there is some accounting for it in the formulas. Then there is also extra staff from programs plus IB gets extra positions devoted to the potential diploma candidtaes. I was surprised to read the post about FCPS including SAT scores at school sites where tests were given. If that's true there can be a lot of distortion if it's a test site that had a lot of private school students.

A big bump in scores can come when a lot of middle school GT students pupil place into a specific high school - over 100 at Marshall for IB while SL's got over 25 from Herndon. I guess it's marketing to the GT centers but Carson doesn't seem to be sending a lot like Herndon. Mclean and Langley send a lot to Marshall.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 18, 2008 06:49PM

My children attended South Lakes but did not take one SAT test there. They took the tests at Herndon and Oakton, because those slots best fit their schedule. Do you think Herndon or Oakton got credit for their scores? My niece, a South Lakes student, took her SAT in South Carolina but I rather doubt that the SC school got credit for her score. When you register for the SAT, you indicate your high school. If you attend a private HS, the score is registered for that school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Quadroon ()
Date: January 18, 2008 06:56PM

NotSoFast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
> ticle=92497&paper=0&cat=109
>
> Another Reston Connection article supportive of
> SLPTSA. Has anyone ever noticed that the same
> people get all the quotes? Come on arent there
> more of you out there in favor of this I am sick
> of seeing the same few people do all the talking.
> After reading the Connection (Reston Connection) I
> would have thought the entire world supported the
> redistricting. Oh except for us racists, that
> dont want to go to school there because they have
> black and hispanic people. Just one time, I would
> love to read a quote or see an interview with one
> of the people the people the SLPTSA says the rest
> of us are scared of. Give me a break. You are
> all OLD WHITE women who want more white kids in
> your school and that is the bottom line. You are
> disgusting biggots. You have no faith in your own
> school yet you expect it from us.
>
> "I think it is bigotry and racism," said Caroline
> Hemenway. Hemenway lives in the Oakton district
> but has decided to pupil place her daughter into
> South Lakes. Caroline Hemenway SLPTSA MEMBER White
> Person
>
> I know a kid who was unable to take public
> speaking because there weren't enough people. He
> wants to be an actor," said Susan Sather, who has
> a freshman at South Lakes. PTSA Member Hunters
> Wood Elementary Reston White Person
>
> That’s kind of typical for this sort of
> situation,” said Maria Allen, vice president of
> the South Lakes High School Parent Teacher Student
> Association. “The truth of the matter is that a
> lot of affluent people don’t want to send their
> kids to schools that have a large low-income
> population.”
> VP SLPTSA White Person
>
> Liz Vanderburg White person

Actually, they may all be octaroons. But a couple for SURE aren't members of the SLHS PTSA.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting - College Credits
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 18, 2008 07:02PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my experience, most high-achieving students want to spend four years in
> college, even if graduating in three years would save their parents
> money. They usually end up at a college with many interesting classes and
> activities. Why graduate a year early when you're having so much fun?

Because they are so excited to actually work in the field that they have trained for at college that they can't wait to get started. These students are like racehorses in the starting gate, chomping at the bit to get going. college for these high achievers delays the gratification of actually getting something accomplished in the real world with the remuneration it derives.

> The primary benefit of taking AP or IB High Level courses for many of these
> students is that they can skip the large, impersonal, introductory
> classes in one or more subjects.

Precisely.

> Instead, they use their IB HL or AP scores to place into typically smaller and
> more advanced classes, which are less likely to be taught in part by graduate
> or undergraduate assistants.

And to skip "core" classes outside their major.

> AP and IB programs differ in the extent to which they make it possible for
> students to place out of introductory classes. This may be irrelevant to
> some students, and very important to others. But for the reasons described
> above, these benefits extend beyond saving money on tuition by rushing
> through college.

AP credits help in another important fashion.

CNU has a 4 yr graduation rate of 12% (7 of 8 don't graduate in 4 years)

ODU has 17% (5 of 6 don't graduate in 4 years)

VCU 19% (4 of 5 don't graduate in 4 years)

GMU 24% (3 of 4 don't graduate in 4 years)

(If I hear about Virginia's vaunted university system one more time, I'll puke. The General Assembly should be outraged by these numbers.)

Why is it taking 5, 6 or more years to finish a BA/BS degree at these schools?

The reason I hear from parents and students is that there are not enough seats in the "core" classes that these colleges, or their department, require.

By testing out of the "core" requirement or the "intro" requirement, the AP grad avoids the log jam and gets out of college on time instead of on the 7 years plan.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 07:53PM

SLVerity Wrote:
> I rather doubt that the SC school got credit for
> her score. When you register for the SAT, you
> indicate your high school. If you attend a
> private HS, the score is registered for that
> school.

Makes perfect sense to me, but how are we supposed to interpret this sentence from the FCPS news release?
http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=700
"The average scores represent tests taken by FCPS seniors from the class of 2007 and include the scores of students who are not enrolled in FCPS but take the test in Fairfax County high schools."

The 2006 release simply says "The scores represent tests taken by FCPS seniors in the class of 2006." http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=449

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: recon ()
Date: January 18, 2008 08:05PM

Maybe they are including students who live in Fairfax County but attend private schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 18, 2008 08:29PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > I rather doubt that the SC school got credit
> for
> > her score. When you register for the SAT, you
> > indicate your high school. If you attend a
> > private HS, the score is registered for that
> > school.
>
> Makes perfect sense to me, but how are we supposed
> to interpret this sentence from the FCPS news
> release?
> http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrele
> ase.cfm?newsid=700
> "The average scores represent tests taken by FCPS
> seniors from the class of 2007 and include the
> scores of students who are not enrolled in FCPS
> but take the test in Fairfax County high
> schools."
>
> The 2006 release simply says "The scores represent
> tests taken by FCPS seniors in the class of 2006."
> http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrel
> ease.cfm?newsid=449

I would imagine that it is the County average scores, which may or may not be helped by the scores of students who are not enrolled in fcps.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AFMD ()
Date: January 18, 2008 09:28PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What next? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I get the sense that the tide has turned and
> that
> > this study will now be stopped. There won't
> ever
> > be a county wide study (too complex) and the
> > promise of a magnet program will be soon
> forgotten
> > once the dust settles (no money, not in the
> plan).
> > It will be interesting to see what happens
> then.
> > From the perspective of a future SL parent,
> this
> > process has been a mess from the start.
> >
> > The taxpayers will have paid for a state of the
> > art, half empty building by the time this is
> > through.
>
> I agree with you that the tide may be turning. The
> overwhelming opinion (not withstanding the 15 or
> 20 SL posters) seems to be a halt of this current
> study, and have a better and more balanced study
> in the future.
>
> This budget shortfall could not have come at a
> worse time for the SB, and it will be very
> difficult to persuede the public to give more
> money when there has has been such wasteful
> spending in the past. It is easy to talk about the
> "good for all" when everyone is flush with money,
> but when times are tough, (and times are very
> tough) people will start to vote with their
> wallets.
>
> People are already not happy that the values of
> their homes falling, and the thought that the
> value may fall even more due to a decision to
> switch to a less desirable school is a great
> motivator to do everything possible to stop this
> RD.
>
> The key will be to give the SB and Staff a way to
> drop this study and still "save face", so that
> they can stay in office. Let those of us who are
> against this RD help the SB try to save face.
>
> It is important that everyone who feels that the
> SB has not been good stewards of our resources,
> let this be know to the Fairfax County Board of
> Supervisors.


Y'all are dreaming if you think this is ain't gonna happen. If you think Raney & Hone's reservations at the 1/10 meeting are indicative of SB thinking then keep in mind they are rookies and at-large members. Even if they aren't rolled in the working session they will probably be the only 2 votes against RD.

I know nobody believes it but there is "some" support in FM for this (everybody scream SL troll now). I've gotten E Castro's emails on the subject and know at least half of the recipients on the distribution list although I only know a couple that are actively lobbying for RD. To be sure, everybody I know won't send a kid to HS until at least 2010 and so they clearly aren't as invested as others in Oakton or AP. Other than the commute I'm not even sure why they aren't just ambivalent like I am but actively pushing for it. I suspect that they feel there is not only great potential in SL but also that it is easier to have more influence in a smaller school that we're closer to. If there is anyone in Floris who supports this, I haven't met them.

To my knowledge this is the first RD of the internet era. I've never been through one before but I'm sure there were debates, rumors, conspiracy theories and hostilities similar to the ones expressed here. The difference was that these were confined to PTA meetings, private thoughts and conversations between individuals, not typewritten into the public domain for anyone with a internet connection to read.

My point being that it may be wise to not only think through the consequences of what you post here but come up with a "make the best of this" contingency plan. Maybe you can pupil-place your kid out of SL next year, then again maybe not. Even if you can, do you want your neighbors kid who is just an average to above-average college bound kid to have to deal with a potentially hostile environment that you helped create?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Padre ()
Date: January 18, 2008 09:52PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a very nice post Stephanie, and I would
> expect that your parents are very proud of you for
> having such a great attitude. I have tried to
> instill the same values in my children, as they
> experience the same issues with the "haves" and
> the "havenots". They are blessed to be able to
> enjoy the life that they have.
>
> In any event, your point seems to be the same as
> most of the SL supporters, in that if people do
> not want to attend South lakes, they are either an
> elitist, a racist or a snob. Why can you and other
> SL supporters not understand that just because
> families do not want to leave their ties to their
> current schools, it does not make them any of the
> above.
>
> I am pleased that you are so fond of your school,
> and it is great to see that so many of your fellow
> students feel the same way. School pride and
> spirit are what high school should be about.
>
> Please do not be so closed minded, as to assume
> that other people do not have the same pride and
> spirit in Oakton, Westfield or Madison.Our
> children take the same pride in their schools as
> you and the fellow SL students do.
>
> Not wanting to attend South Lakes does not make
> anyone wrong.


Floris Parent.

You use language such as:

"brought South Lakes to its current condition, and "it is grossly unfair to ask those parents to now pull their children out of Nationally recognized top schools and put them in a school which by the admission of the SL parents and supporters, is struggling".

Here's the divide that won't get resolved between South Lakes and people who hold views like yours. You think SL has a "condition" and "is struggling". Others use terms like "inferior education", etc.

Most of us at SLHS know it is a very good school; markedly improved in morale and administration; higher test scores which are equal to, or not far below its peers in FFX County; safe and a happy place to teach and learn. Etc, No "condition"; not "struggling".

Read the Oakton kids' story. No spin there. No SLHS PTSA (or evil comrades) behind that. That wasn't a day where we told the "bad" kids to stay away (or not take the test, or stow the "hard" cases).

The main problem is the false perception that has caused people to steer away.

Your comments perpetuate that perception, which we know to be false. So -- while we do understand that other people have pride in the schools that they go to now, we don't accept the extra twist --- cheap shots from my perspective -- that people often take to denigrate our school. You don't see that from us toward other schools, do you?

Bottom line: I have a hard time seeing that a switch from a top 1 0r 2% school pyramid to a top 3% school is worth the victimization claims about which we hear so much, so loudly, from so few.

That's why the SB has to do the right thing and make this adjustment to the boundaries. Then people can move forward and stop whining.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stephanie ()
Date: January 18, 2008 10:51PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a very nice post Stephanie, and I would
> expect that your parents are very proud of you for
> having such a great attitude. I have tried to
> instill the same values in my children, as they
> experience the same issues with the "haves" and
> the "havenots". They are blessed to be able to
> enjoy the life that they have.
>
> In any event, your point seems to be the same as
> most of the SL supporters, in that if people do
> not want to attend South lakes, they are either an
> elitist, a racist or a snob. Why can you and other
> SL supporters not understand that just because
> families do not want to leave their ties to their
> current schools, it does not make them any of the
> above.
>
> I am pleased that you are so fond of your school,
> and it is great to see that so many of your fellow
> students feel the same way. School pride and
> spirit are what high school should be about.
>
> Please do not be so closed minded, as to assume
> that other people do not have the same pride and
> spirit in Oakton, Westfield or Madison.Our
> children take the same pride in their schools as
> you and the fellow SL students do.
>
> Not wanting to attend South Lakes does not make
> anyone wrong.


Floris Parent,

I love how those on this board assume that I mean all students should be required to come to South Lakes, that's not what this has ever been about to me. In all honesty I don't care who comes to South Lakes. All I care about is more numbers, because more numbers mean more funding. More funding means more academic and athletic oppurtunities, and maybe if we had these oppurtunities our numbers and percentages of SOL pass rates would be higher, our football team might be better. Meaning more students around the county wouldn't have the image in mind that South Lakes has become known for. It truly is sad that it was only twenty years ago when people were lining up to recieve enrollment at South Lakes, and now parents are fighting over which area should be "sacraficed." Its ironic in a way as well. I have heard many times on this forum that parents from other schools arean't trying to spread rumors or bring shame upon South Lakes through this process, but to simply help others to understand their position for redistriciting. How can you say this when you portray South Lakes as the "horrible and ghetto" experiment lab that your child is being sacraficed at? I don't care which kids we get, send McNair, send Aldrige, send Foxmill. I honestly don't care. But please stop complaining. I understand students already enrolled at their highschools, it's unfair to pull those from the enviroment they are currently in. But those of you who have children six or seven years old, please just stop complaining. You don't have the faintest clue of what South Lakes is like now from your postings and you sure don't have the faintest clue of what it will be like in EIGHT years when they are enrolled. Don't assume you know anything about our school when you havn't even stepped foot inside it. This is all I have to say... because this "I don't want my kid being the guinea pig!" is truly getting annoying. Something has to be done to fix not only the image of South Lakes but to help the students who are currently being underserved because they don't have the equal oppurtunities that we all pay taxes for! Remember that please.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 18, 2008 11:19PM

SLHS Padre Wrote:
>
> The main problem is the false perception that has
> caused people to steer away. ...
>
> That's why the SB has to do the right thing and
> make this adjustment to the boundaries. Then
> people can move forward and stop whining.

Padre,

It is nice you are pleased with your school. If we want a smaller school, or the IB programme, we can pupil-place. However, we'd like it to be OUR choice, and most of us, like you, like our current schools. We cannot understand why other high schools should be redistricted because of whatever might be the issue at South Lakes.

Can you precisely define the problem at South Lakes that needs to be solved? We keep hearing that more students are needed to offer some undefined courses - can you specify the courses you want added? Maybe give the name of another FCPS IB High School of about 2,000 that offers the curriculum you seek?

Within FCPS, even Robinson, arguably the largest IB high school in the world, can only offer six AP courses. (Some other relatively small public high schools outside of FCPS can offer both programms, but they have different budget structures.) As I have written before, if you like IB, fine, then make it work for South Lakes, like it works for other FCPS small IB high schools. But if you want an AP program in an FCPS high school, then you have to get rid of IB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 18, 2008 11:48PM

Stephanie - (if your are, who you say you are) nice post! You just never know on this board.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: netsavvy ()
Date: January 19, 2008 12:14AM

"To my knowledge this is the first RD of the internet era. I've never been through one before but I'm sure there were debates, rumors, conspiracy theories and hostilities similar to the ones expressed here. The difference was that these were confined to PTA meetings, private thoughts and conversations between individuals, not typewritten into the public domain for anyone with a internet connection to read. "

I followed these over the years to be prepared for the Westfield study. I can't stand the ineptitude of FCPS!

SC redistricting back to Hayfield 06-07
Click on the 911 comments http://fairboundaries.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-02-23T07%3A08%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=2

172 comments and 2729 comments on these two blog entries.
http://fairboundaries.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-02-23T07%3A08%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=2

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fairfaxfocus/2006/10/south_county_school_boundary_s.html

The Post was censoring comments so most commenters switched to fairboundaries blog

The Post has removed literally thousands of posts from the The West Springfield debacle threads

WSHS boundary study 05-06

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fairfaxfocus/2006/02/continue_discussion_here_on_sc_1.html

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fairfaxfocus/2005/10/schools_post_info_from_springf.html

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fairfaxfocus/2005/10/high_school_boundary_changes_m.html

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Padre ()
Date: January 19, 2008 12:34AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLHS Padre Wrote:
> >
> > The main problem is the false perception that
> has
> > caused people to steer away. ...
> >
> > That's why the SB has to do the right thing and
> > make this adjustment to the boundaries. Then
> > people can move forward and stop whining.
>
> Padre,
>
> It is nice you are pleased with your school. If we
> want a smaller school, or the IB programme, we can
> pupil-place. However, we'd like it to be OUR
> choice, and most of us, like you, like our current
> schools. We cannot understand why other high
> schools should be redistricted because of whatever
> might be the issue at South Lakes.
>
> Can you precisely define the problem at South
> Lakes that needs to be solved? We keep hearing
> that more students are needed to offer some
> undefined courses - can you specify the courses
> you want added? Maybe give the name of another
> FCPS IB High School of about 2,000 that offers the
> curriculum you seek?
>
> Within FCPS, even Robinson, arguably the largest
> IB high school in the world, can only offer six AP
> courses. (Some other relatively small public high
> schools outside of FCPS can offer both programms,
> but they have different budget structures.) As I
> have written before, if you like IB, fine, then
> make it work for South Lakes, like it works for
> other FCPS small IB high schools. But if you want
> an AP program in an FCPS high school, then you
> have to get rid of IB.


See Stephanie's last post. That cuts to the chase.

FR: You always end with the demand to get rid of IB. I have said I don't have a strong stake in IB v. AP, but I do see that IB provides rigor, is more flexible and adaptable than opponents (like you) imply, and is not the boogeyman/Welsh Rarebit/Swiss Fondue that the IB-phobes suggest. It's at SLHS; it's doing fine; and there is no reason for another sea change. Like the "where's Langley"; "Magnet", "why not McNair" arguments, I see IB-phobia as a stalking horse for "don't redistrict me".

SLHS deserves boundaries that gives normal numbers above the 1000 or 1100 gen ed students now there, up toward 1700. That would mean more flexibility in the core schedule, less merging of the IB German 1 and 2s, etc., plus the benefits to sports teams, chorus, and electives that others in this well-financed County system take for granted. You've read those arguments. I won't restate them.

If one accepts that SLHS is an excellent school in a County school district which merits more or less equal treatment, students, and resources, then the redistricting is an inconvenience at worst. If one believes that SLHS is a special case that needs "special" measures, i.e., ICU care and isolation, intraveneous feeding, then redistricting looks different.

I say it's the former, no question.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:05AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting comarison of Stuart, Marshall and
> South Lakes.
>
> http://www.schoolmatters.com/schools.aspx/q/page=s
> c/scid=49195,49174,49219/pid=sr/up_txt=Fairfax$sp;
> County/up_ust=VA/up_so=1/up_sc=0/up_p=-1/up_fp=1/u
> p_fltr_nb=High/up_ctxt=Fairfax$sp;County$sp;$sp;,V
> A

WOW!!! That's astonishing. What the heck is going on in math at South Lakes? Their numbers are SO much lower than the other schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:15AM

>>>>"I think it is bigotry and racism," said Caroline
> Hemenway. Hemenway lives in the Oakton district
> but has decided to pupil place her daughter into
> South Lakes. Caroline Hemenway SLPTSA MEMBER White
> Person<<<<

Are you sure about that? She claims that she has been fighting off racism and racists her entire life. She's had to stand up to them throughout her life. From those statements, I have to assume that she is a elderly Black woman who grew up in a very backward part of the US. Perhaps I am wrong, and she is another minority who has suffered in some other country. From her statements, it's hard to believe that she is a white woman who lives in this county.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:17AM

recon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe they are including students who live in
> Fairfax County but attend private schools.

Yes, that is true. Those students who attend private schools, and home school, but take the test in public schools, count in FCPS stats.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:19AM

SLHS Padre Wrote:
> ...Like the "where's
> Langley"; "Magnet", "why not McNair" arguments, I
> see IB-phobia as a stalking horse for "don't
> redistrict me".
>
> SLHS deserves boundaries that gives normal numbers
> above the 1000 or 1100 gen ed students now there,
> up toward 1700. That would mean more flexibility
> in the core schedule, less merging of the IB
> German 1 and 2s, etc., plus the benefits to sports
> teams, chorus, and electives that others in this
> well-financed County system take for granted.
> You've read those arguments. I won't restate
> them....

We have a philosophical difference in that many of us consider IB, "where's Langley," "Magnet," and especially, that the other high schools are NOT projected to be overcrowded to be valid reasons in support of "don't redistrict me."

You write "SLHS deserves boundaries that gives normal numbers" because of IB issues and "benefits to sports teams, chorus, and electives." Some other FCPS high schools are small, and most high schools in the nation are smaller, but you consider this to be a valid argument, so I am trying to understand it. We keep reading that more students are needed to offer some undefined courses and scheduling improvements. Can you provide the name of another FCPS IB High School of about 2,000 (or about "1700 gen ed") that offers the curriculum you seek?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:43AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am under the impression that all schools in
> Fairfax County get equal funding, although some
> may get more based on special needs or programs. I
> doubt that Langley, Westfield, Oakton or Madison
> get any more funding that South Lakes.
>
> I am sure that Langley residents are paying more
> in taxes, because the homes are considerabley more
> expensive.
>
> Reston does have some beautiful water front homes.

The reality is that South Lakes gets MORE per pupil funding than the other schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:48AM

Padre,
I honestly don't think you will have any problems with this school board. They will support what Stu wants, 10 to 2. The school board is not the problem, it's the parents who have made it clear that they will not send their children to South Lakes. This whole process has been done so poorly, too many people have been alienated and angered. They will not send their children to SL and this redistricting will fail, even though the SB supports it. They've botched it. Too late now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 02:03AM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR: I stand by the most important issue. If you
> ignore this, then you are dodging it -- or are
> trying to figure out how to answer it without
> sounding like a resume-building parent.
>
> If you believe that the purpose of high school is
> to rack up college credits, then sending your kid
> to an AP school and having him or her load up with
> AP courses should be your mission. (Remembering
> that almost no college allows more than 24 such
> credits). But if you believe that one mission of
> high school is to prepare your child for the
> challenging and fascinating world of higher
> learning, then it will matter more to you that the
> courses at the school your child goes to will do
> that, regardless of the credit amassed.

While that might not matter to you, it may matter a great deal to low income students. Many of our new Asian immigrants need every credit they can get because they don't have any money, or time, to waste.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: BirdLover ()
Date: January 19, 2008 02:20AM

Foris Parent, responding to Stephanie, wrote:

“In any event, your point seems to be the same as most of the SL supporters, in that if people do not want to attend South lakes, they are either an elitist, a racist or a snob. Why can you and other SL supporters not understand that just because families do not want to leave their ties to their current schools, it does not make them any of the above.”
_________________________________

The only elitists posting at this forum are the South Lakes adults, minus Thomas Moore. They have repeatedly chastised anyone who expresses concern regarding the housing projects, the percentage of kids on free lunch, etc.

SLParent set the tone with this post:

"Why do any of you care if a student is on Free or Reduced lunch? It drives me crazy that this issue is a common theme.

I am with the kids of SL all the time (no I don't work at the school) and believe it or not actually talk to the kids. My own kids grades or test scores haven't slipped because of these students. Amazing but true.

They talk the same, they play sports the same and they behave the same. Just because someone doesn't come from a certain income family home does not make them a less desirable student.
__________________________________

Why then, do the parents from South Lakes only want certain children moving to South Lakes? Why do they desire kids from the white middle class or higher? What’s wrong with the McNair kids? With arrogance, they constantly tout their sacred egalitarian beliefs while at the same time appearing to be the elitists they so despise. What frauds.

Their ill conceived plan to silence dissenters with accusations of racism and elitism has failed. Why? Because this is an old tactic which no longer works. People are now aware of the nefarious motives of race baiters and are becoming increasingly angry with their attempts at manipulation and exploitation.

So... South Lakes...You might want to hire a good PR firm to help sell your product because, so far..... your PR sucks.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: BirdLover ()
Date: January 19, 2008 02:50AM

"I think it is bigotry and racism," said Caroline Hemenway. Hemenway lives in the Oakton district but has decided to pupil place her daughter into Sout Lakes. Caroline Hemenway SLPTSA MEMBER White Person".
___________________________

Neen Wrote:

Are you sure about that? She claims that she has been fighting off racism and racists her entire life. She's had to stand up to them throughout her life. From those statements, I have to assume that she is a elderly Black woman who grew up in a very backward part of the US. Perhaps I am wrong, and she is another minority who has suffered in some other country. From her statements, it's hard to believe that she is a white woman who lives in this county.

____________________________

It is strange that a white woman would have spent an entire life fighting off racism. Is it possible that her guilt over being white has caused a break with reality and she now actually believes she's black? Remember how Bill Clinton used to joke that he was the first black president? Maybe Caroline took that literally.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 19, 2008 06:41AM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLHS Padre Wrote:
> > ...Like the "where's
> > Langley"; "Magnet", "why not McNair" arguments,
> I
> > see IB-phobia as a stalking horse for "don't
> > redistrict me".
> >
> > SLHS deserves boundaries that gives normal
> numbers
> > above the 1000 or 1100 gen ed students now
> there,
> > up toward 1700. That would mean more
> flexibility
> > in the core schedule, less merging of the IB
> > German 1 and 2s, etc., plus the benefits to
> sports
> > teams, chorus, and electives that others in
> this
> > well-financed County system take for granted.
> > You've read those arguments. I won't restate
> > them....
>
> We have a philosophical difference in that many of
> us consider IB, "where's Langley," "Magnet," and
> especially, that the other high schools are NOT
> projected to be overcrowded to be valid reasons in
> support of "don't redistrict me."
>
> You write "SLHS deserves boundaries that gives
> normal numbers" because of IB issues and "benefits
> to sports teams, chorus, and electives." Some
> other FCPS high schools are small, and most high
> schools in the nation are smaller, but you
> consider this to be a valid argument, so I am
> trying to understand it. We keep reading that more
> students are needed to offer some undefined
> courses and scheduling improvements. Can you
> provide the name of another FCPS IB High School of
> about 2,000 (or about "1700 gen ed") that offers
> the curriculum you seek?


Yes, I was reading the Stuart and SL's websites to see what kind of courses they offer..both are small schools and IBs as we know that...SL, what kind of courses do you need exactly in justification to adding more kids to your school? Stuart isn't yelling for more kids, right? Stuart made a statement in their website saying Glagsow and portions of Poe Middle kids go to Stuart. So yes, I am trying to understand why it is absolutely necessary for you guys to get more kids given you have an array of necessary courses, electives and the IB in order to graduate. Plus I have not seen one answer from any of the SL supporters to answer some of our questions about what is the UPSIDE for our potentially redistricted kids. Plus I am appalled at the SL attitude towards the McNair community not wanting them but more advantaged kids. My kid knows a couple of kids from McNair and they are doing very well in school. So what gives about certain communities being handpicked, but not others esp those who are interested in going to SL?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 19, 2008 08:58AM

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR: You always end with the demand to get rid of
> IB. I have said I don't have a strong stake in IB
> v. AP, but I do see that IB provides rigor, is
> more flexible and adaptable than opponents (like
> you) imply, and is not the boogeyman/Welsh
> Rarebit/Swiss Fondue that the IB-phobes suggest.

I agree that IB is nothing to purposely avoid.

> It's at SLHS; it's doing fine; and there is no
> reason for another sea change. Like the "where's
> Langley"; "Magnet", "why not McNair" arguments, I
> see IB-phobia as a stalking horse for "don't
> redistrict me".

Invalidating each other's concerns in a debate is wrong, and will achieve nothing except improve our typing here. I see both sides of redistricting here being guilty of this, and we should make a concerted effort to stop.

A constructive approach could be: why don't we find out specifically what courses South Lakes would like to have, and see how we can make it happen in any way feasible. If there is more than one way to accomplish this, then let us examine those ways as equally valid.

For starters, I remember SLgirl917 mentioned that German 3 and 4 classes were combined. We can start the master list of desired courses, and put down German 4 as item number 1.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: VaDriver ()
Date: January 19, 2008 09:56AM

SLHS Padre wrote ….edited for easier reading…..for us NON IB types!

“IB is not the boogeyman/Welsh Rarebit/Swiss Fondue that the IB-phobes suggest.

I see IB-phobia as a stalking horse for "don't redistrict me".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heres my perspective.

My initial objection to redistricting was an anticipated negative impact on home values…which I still believe is a valid reason to object to redistricting. Then of course the discussion about crime reports/ MS-13 gang activity in Reston news accounts at South Lakes is another concern. I understand South Lakes officials are doing everything possible to improve this image problem and I wish them success. Expel students involved in criminal behavior…any kid..any color..any high school.

However, from reading this forum, and also having conducted some outside research, I have become better informed regarding the International Baccalaureate Programme. As a result, I have become a strong proponent for AP, an American program with a tremendous track record. I understand, IB might work well for those families being relocated to foreign countries etc.
I really have a problem with some of my discoveries…..

For instance, I don’t like our American students essays (Exams) being sent all over the world for grading. Vietnam!!! Dubai?? These are our American children….why on earth...or on "globe" should anyone feel comfortable with Vietnamese citizens,presumably great with their own language, grading an American’s ESSAY??? and we are supposed to be good with that?????? Not I.

Then, I see last years South Lakes newspaper and read the following……

“Anne Stowe, IB Coordinator………... It is very important that all students come to the exam. Last year, one student even took an exam with a concussion. Needless to say, your attendance at the exam is mandatory. If there is some extreme situation, such as a severe car accident on the way to the site or an illness, simply contact Mrs. Stowe, explain the issue to her, and she will make a call to Wales and see what she can do to reschedule the test date or another solution"……

What kind of incredible stresses are we putting on our children with that type of advice for Gods sake! These exams are not life and death situations.
Heres Mrs Stowe,…“oh, okay honey, you’re in a severe accident…let me make a quick call to WALES for approval so that you can go ahead to the hospital!”

And then to read…they are proud a kid took the test with a concussion….?????????? This is a form of child abuse. Would one of you please tell me it is NOT???

So Padre…YES,………. IB ……IS……the boogeyman for those who want AP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 19, 2008 09:58AM

Stephanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Floris Parent,
>
> I love how those on this board assume that I mean
> all students should be required to come to South
> Lakes, that's not what this has ever been about to
> me. In all honesty I don't care who comes to South
> Lakes. All I care about is more numbers, because
> more numbers mean more funding.
Not sure what your point is, since the Current proposal before the board in part of Floris and all of Fox Mill, with a small group from madison.

More funding means
> more academic and athletic oppurtunities, and
> maybe if we had these oppurtunities our numbers
> and percentages of SOL pass rates would be higher,
> our football team might be better. Meaning more
> students around the county wouldn't have the image
> in mind that South Lakes has become known for.

Stephanie,here are the questions that I have about this statement: When you say academic opportunies, are you referring to core classes, IB or AP classes, or electives. With regard to Athletics, are there some sports that South lakes is not participating in or unable to offer due to a smaller enrollment? I would hope that won of your concerns and justifications for the RD is not to "have a better football team". Are you saying that a schools athletic prowess influences the image of a school?

> truly is sad that it was only twenty years ago
> when people were lining up to recieve enrollment
> at South Lakes, and now parents are fighting over
> which area should be "sacraficed."

What was South Lakes doing 20 years ago, that they are not doing today? What was the thrust of the academic offerings back then? Is is possible that when South Lakes Switched for AP to IB, it caused some people to seek other schools who continued to offer AP?


> way as well. I have heard many times on this forum
> that parents from other schools arean't trying to
> spread rumors or bring shame upon South Lakes
> through this process, but to simply help others to
> understand their position for redistriciting. How
> can you say this when you portray South Lakes as
> the "horrible and ghetto" experiment lab that your
> child is being sacraficed at?

Did I use the words "Horrible" and Ghetto"?, or are these your words? I do believe that anytime a SB uses forced RD to somehow change the "socio-economics" of a school, it often does not work. This is true whether you are trying to bus disadvantaged children into a "high achieving school", or sending "advantaged" children into into a school that is not considered "high achieving". Forced busing is not the answer in either case. I have stated before, that people will gravitate on their own, if they feel that a particular school offers better opportunities. I have heard many great things about South Lakes as a result of this RD study, from you and many other SL supporters, and I believe that many others in the community have heard them as well. It may be that with all of the publicity that has been generated about South Lakes during this RD process, you will find many more parents who will choose South Lakes for their children. As I have been reading newspapers, editorials, feedback from the Town Hall mettings etc. It appears that the are more than a few people, that like the unique offerings of South Lakes. It will be interesting to see how the enrollments numbers change even before the RD takes place.


I don't care which
> kids we get, send McNair, send Aldrige, send
> Foxmill. I honestly don't care.

I hear what you are sying hear, but other supporters of South Lakes seem to disagree with you about what schools they would be willing to take.

But please stop
> complaining.

Disagreeing with you and other SL supporters is not complaining.

I understand students already
> enrolled at their highschools, it's unfair to pull
> those from the enviroment they are currently in.
> But those of you who have children six or seven
> years old, please just stop complaining. You don't
> have the faintest clue of what South Lakes is like
> now from your postings and you sure don't have the
> faintest clue of what it will be like in EIGHT
> years when they are enrolled. Don't assume you
> know anything about our school when you havn't
> even stepped foot inside it. This is all I have to
> say... because this "I don't want my kid being the
> guinea pig!" is truly getting annoying. Something
> has to be done to fix not only the image of South
> Lakes but to help the students who are currently
> being underserved because they don't have the
> equal oppurtunities that we all pay taxes for!
> Remember that please.

You will have the opportunity to pay taxes in the future Stephanie, and looking at the rigorous academic schedule that you are taking, there is no doubt that you will get to pay alot of taxes. You should have great career opportunities based on you intelligence and drive.

Are there academic classes that you specifically not able to take due to underenrollment at SL?

Has the SL PTSA created a list of specific classes that are not available to the SL students due to smaller enrollment numbers? Can you tell me whether the missed academic opportunities are are in the areas of interest to the general education students, or the IB students. As far as electives, can you give me an idea of some specific classes that SL does not have access to?

I know that when non SL parents hear that SL does not have equal access to resources, we are not exactly sure what those resources are.

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. It is great to see a student who has passion about her education and cares about her school, when many others simply feel like they "have to go", and do not appreciate the opportunities that this county offers.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Parent ()
Date: January 19, 2008 10:31AM

This is true. My understanding is that the primary benefit will be to offer more educational opportunity to non-IB kids by providing more variety of classes.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't South lakes also a "school within a school".
> I am under the impression that the IB kids are
> pretty much in their own class rooms, and are not
> really a part of the general population of
> "regular" kids.
>
> What will be the benifit of bring in the Fox Mill,
> Madison and Floris kids? Do you expect the
> majority of these new kids to be in the advanced
> classes, or the general education classes with the
> "regular kids"?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stephanie ()
Date: January 19, 2008 10:33AM

BirdLover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Foris Parent, responding to Stephanie, wrote:
>
> “In any event, your point seems to be the same as
> most of the SL supporters, in that if people do
> not want to attend South lakes, they are either an
> elitist, a racist or a snob. Why can you and other
> SL supporters not understand that just because
> families do not want to leave their ties to their
> current schools, it does not make them any of the
> above.”
> _________________________________
>
> The only elitists posting at this forum are the
> South Lakes adults, minus Thomas Moore. They have
> repeatedly chastised anyone who expresses concern
> regarding the housing projects, the percentage of
> kids on free lunch, etc.
>
> SLParent set the tone with this post:
>
> "Why do any of you care if a student is on Free or
> Reduced lunch? It drives me crazy that this issue
> is a common theme.
>
> I am with the kids of SL all the time (no I don't
> work at the school) and believe it or not actually
> talk to the kids. My own kids grades or test
> scores haven't slipped because of these students.
> Amazing but true.
>
> They talk the same, they play sports the same and
> they behave the same. Just because someone doesn't
> come from a certain income family home does not
> make them a less desirable student.
> __________________________________
>
> Why then, do the parents from South Lakes only
> want certain children moving to South Lakes? Why
> do they desire kids from the white middle class or
> higher? What’s wrong with the McNair kids? With
> arrogance, they constantly tout their sacred
> egalitarian beliefs while at the same time
> appearing to be the elitists they so despise. What
> frauds.
>
> Their ill conceived plan to silence dissenters
> with accusations of racism and elitism has failed.
> Why? Because this is an old tactic which no
> longer works. People are now aware of the
> nefarious motives of race baiters and are becoming
> increasingly angry with their attempts at
> manipulation and exploitation.
>
> So... South Lakes...You might want to hire a good
> PR firm to help sell your product because, so
> far..... your PR sucks.


Do you truly want to know whats going on Birdlover? Well here it is....

We don't care who comes to South Lakes, white, black, hispanic, I could care less. It's FCPS that cares because they want to fix the socio-economic percentages that are out of whack. So lets ask you the same thing? Why do you want all the white kids bunched together in one school? What problem does that solve? I honestly don't care personally. Send McNair, its more kids. I don't think you understand that if SLHS had its choice we would ask for more funding without requiring your children be here. Because if the children who will be attending South Lakes next year are anything like the parents on this message board then its going to be a sad year for South Lakes HS. We like our school the way it is. Where students don't care what you wear, and you don't have to have the latest Abercrombie skirt to run for court. Trust me if anyone would know what goes on at schools like Carson it would be me, I attended the school. And I know from my experiences at Carson and South Lakes that they are entirely differnt worlds. Carson is a world in which it does matter what you look like. The friends you have depend upon the clothes you wear, the parties you go to, etc. South Lakes is quite the oppisite. No cliques, no trends, and most I'm proud to say wear sweats and sweatshirts displaying "South Lakes Seahawks."
So to us... we honestly don't care. It's FCPS, so don't bring it out on us that they want to fix the numebers. We at South Lakes know that people are people no matter their skin tone or their bank account.
However while we are on the subject of money I would like to say this. Although we do have an upper class percentage of students at South Lakes the numbers are far less then at other schools. And while we would never like to admit it, this is a disadvantage to us. The number of students on free and reduced lunch mirrors this statement. We don't always have the finacial support behind our students that other schools do. And while this makes no impact upon the grades we should have, it does make a difference in class selection and athletic programs. Where do you think the money comes from that goes to students on free and reduced lunch? And who do you think that money is being taken away from? If we all lived in a perfect world where no one was on free and reduced lunch I don't think we'd be having this conversation, but unfortunatly this isn't a perfect world, it's very flawed. A flawed world that needs fixed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stephanie ()
Date: January 19, 2008 10:56AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Stephanie,here are the questions that I have about
> this statement: When you say academic opportunies,
> are you referring to core classes, IB or AP
> classes, or electives. With regard to Athletics,
> are there some sports that South lakes is not
> participating in or unable to offer due to a
> smaller enrollment? I would hope that won of your
> concerns and justifications for the RD is not to
> "have a better football team". Are you saying that
> a schools athletic prowess influences the image of
> a school?

What I meant by this statement Floris Parent is we have nearly a third the school that Chantilly does. How can you compare a school with only 1300 students to that of one with 3000? How can their football programs compare? Have you noticed that the strongest athletic programs at South Lakes are dependable upon a fewer number of students? Basketball, track, and swimming to be exact are our most successful programs as they see the most students going to states. But notice that two of these sports are individual sports and the other only requires five truly decent players. How can you justly say that our football team isn't good when it requires nearly four times the amount of players that basketball does on the field at one time? If we had more students it would mean more interest, which would mean more selection from tryouts.

> Did I use the words "Horrible" and Ghetto"?, or
> are these your words? I do believe that anytime a
> SB uses forced RD to somehow change the
> "socio-economics" of a school, it often does not
> work. This is true whether you are trying to bus
> disadvantaged children into a "high achieving
> school", or sending "advantaged" children into
> into a school that is not considered "high
> achieving". Forced busing is not the answer in
> either case. I have stated before, that people
> will gravitate on their own, if they feel that a
> particular school offers better opportunities. I
> have heard many great things about South Lakes as
> a result of this RD study, from you and many other
> SL supporters, and I believe that many others in
> the community have heard them as well. It may be
> that with all of the publicity that has been
> generated about South Lakes during this RD
> process, you will find many more parents who will
> choose South Lakes for their children. As I have
> been reading newspapers, editorials, feedback from
> the Town Hall mettings etc. It appears that the
> are more than a few people, that like the unique
> offerings of South Lakes. It will be interesting
> to see how the enrollments numbers change even
> before the RD takes place.

Maybe you specifically did not use these words but I have heard them before, perhaps from Oakton students themselves... ahem Emily who felt the need to badger me on my long essays of post that were simple means to make me feel better about myself. It is people like this that we are truly afraid to have at South Lakes. Those who feel good by putting others down.


> I hear what you are sying hear, but other
> supporters of South Lakes seem to disagree with
> you about what schools they would be willing to
> take.

Really? Because if so I must have missed something. Please give me a quote and then we can discuss this. I am not trying to be smart about this either, but simply tell you I havn't seen one post to believe this.


> Disagreeing with you and other SL supporters is
> not complaining.

No, but continously using the phrase "human guinea pig" is.

> You will have the opportunity to pay taxes in the
> future Stephanie, and looking at the rigorous
> academic schedule that you are taking, there is no
> doubt that you will get to pay alot of taxes. You
> should have great career opportunities based on
> you intelligence and drive.
>
> Are there academic classes that you specifically
> not able to take due to underenrollment at SL?

Yes as a matter of fact there are. Sign Language was canceled this year as there was not enough student interest. IB Physics HL was also canceled. And I'm sure with a little more digging I could find more if you are that interested in the subject.

> I know that when non SL parents hear that SL does
> not have equal access to resources, we are not
> exactly sure what those resources are.

Here, think about this for a moment. When your PTA or boosters club fundraises where does the money come from? Parents of students at the school who can afford to buy things correct? Well we at South Lakes don't have that high percentage of wealthy parents to buy anything and everything that is fundraised. And I know you don't think those numbers are signifigant but they truly are. This is where your extra cash comes in for athletic programs and extra computers, etc.


> Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.
> It is great to see a student who has passion about
> her education and cares about her school, when
> many others simply feel like they "have to go",
> and do not appreciate the opportunities that this
> county offers.

Well yes, this is something you truly shouldn't take for granted for. Which scares me a little. Are these the views from students being redistricted?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whatif ()
Date: January 19, 2008 11:28AM

SO, if you wipe the slate clean of a $60M rehab to South Lakes and it becomes the same South Lakes as of say, a year or 2 ago, what is the answer to the equity problem that South Lakes parents are clamoring about? How would you go about fixing the "not enough classes or teachers or cheerleaders or too many FRL or ESOL or too low scores, or not enough astroners for the astronomy club or so forth and so on. If there was no sparkle of a renovation, how would South Lakes envision addressing the gaps? Would it be a boundary study such as we have seen?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 19, 2008 11:46AM

Berdhuis Wrote:
> ...I agree that IB is nothing to purposely avoid....
>
> Invalidating each other's concerns in a debate is
> wrong, and will achieve nothing except improve our
> typing here. I see both sides of redistricting
> here being guilty of this, and we should make a
> concerted effort to stop.
>
> A constructive approach could be: why don't we
> find out specifically what courses South Lakes
> would like to have, and see how we can make it
> happen in any way feasible. If there is more than
> one way to accomplish this, then let us examine
> those ways as equally valid.
>
> For starters, I remember SLgirl917 mentioned that
> German 3 and 4 classes were combined. We can start
> the master list of desired courses, and put down
> German 4 as item number 1.

I agree that "Invalidating each other's concerns in a debate is wrong," But then why do you write, "I agree that IB is nothing to purposely avoid"? At one time I considered IB for my children. I investigated IB very carefully. It is a very good programme for perhaps 5% of the population who can handle five years of a foreign before high school language and who seek a rigorous programme with a world view. However, after this intensive review I decided this is not the programme for my children and I do NOT want them in an IB High School. If you like IB, great, but why do supporters of this redistricting attempt to invalidate our concerns?

As for the classes South Lakes would like to see added, I also would like to see the specific list. We are back to the Master Schedule and FCPS budget limitations. NO FCPS high school can teach every course that every student requests.

Are other readers of this thread familiar with the new FCPS concept of five "consortia" of high schools to implement the "high schools of the future" initiative? Over-simplification: Somewhere within each consortia all FCPS high school courses will be offered, and every student will have access to them. Lesser-enrolled courses, including multivariate calculus and German 4, would be offered at ONE school within each consortia and students from neighboring high schools would travel every other day (block scheduling) to attend it.

I understand that South Lakes does not want "academy" students because such students are not members of the school and do not participate in its music and sports programs. However, consider another angle: If South Lakes hosted some of these lesser-enrolled courses, then South Lakes students would not have to travel to get to them.

From: http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/westcoboundary/faq.htm
"An additional consideration is FCPS’ desire to establish a regional consortium of specialized and advanced high school courses and programs that were previously exclusive to centralized academies. This approach will allow FCPS to offer advanced academy-level programs at groups of high schools serving regions of the county rather than at specific schools serving the entire county. The consortium approach will reduce the travel time and distance and consequently the amount of lost instructional time for students enrolled in the academy programs. It should be noted that the renovation of South Lakes High School included specific facilities to support the implementation of this consortium concept and these specialized courses."

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: January 19, 2008 12:34PM

Forum Reader Wrote:...
....It should be noted that the
> renovation of South Lakes High School included
> specific facilities to support the implementation
> of this consortium concept and these specialized
> courses."

Chantilly also has cooking. If Westfield is the new vo-tech why is SL's getting cooking? In this entire exercise, no one semed to have informed the public if Chantilly Academy stays or goes. I'm familiar with the Consortia which weirdly enough do not match Clusters. Clusters and Consortia should be coordinated. What will happen with Marshall? Can that thing be moved to Falls Church? There are some peculiar allignments including Stuart and Langley. Who knew they were in the same geographic area?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 19, 2008 12:39PM

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:...
> ....It should be noted that the
> > renovation of South Lakes High School included
> > specific facilities to support the
> implementation
> > of this consortium concept and these
> specialized
> > courses."
>
> Chantilly also has cooking. If Westfield is the
> new vo-tech why is SL's getting cooking? In this
> entire exercise, no one semed to have informed the
> public if Chantilly Academy stays or goes. I'm
> familiar with the Consortia which weirdly enough
> do not match Clusters. Clusters and Consortia
> should be coordinated. What will happen with
> Marshall? Can that thing be moved to Falls
> Church? There are some peculiar allignments
> including Stuart and Langley. Who knew they were
> in the same geographic area?


The FCPS staff said on Monday that South Lakes is getting a small culinary arts program because the one at Chantilly is vastly over-enrolled and there is a strong demand. That's all I know.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 19, 2008 12:57PM

taxpayer Wrote:
> I'm
> familiar with the Consortia which weirdly enough
> do not match Clusters. Clusters and Consortia
> should be coordinated. What will happen with
> Marshall? Can that thing be moved to Falls
> Church? There are some peculiar allignments
> including Stuart and Langley. Who knew they were
> in the same geographic area?

------------
Three Areas. Eight clusters. Five consortia. We seem to be starting all over with new groupings.

Does anyone know the current consortia? The ones I heard a year ago seem to have changed.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Fox Mill Estates Parent ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:24PM

Stephanie,


My wife is from a country where there are Communist and Islamic Terrorists that kill people. These people will kidnap and kill my son if they can when he visits his mother's homeland.

You should be more carefull about lecuturing others, whom you do not know, about other continents, poverty, and education. You made an error.

By the way, my wife wants my son to go to Oakton, that is "freaking what." She does not want her son to go to South Lakes. And Stephie my wife KNOWS what it is like to live in dangerous times.

And "I don't want my child sacraficed to see if rich and poor people can get along!" as you put it. This is true.

My son is far too precious to me to be "sacraficed" for a social experiment. My son is my family's past, present, and future. All that I was, am, or ever will be is in my proginy. It is a philosophical, and I dare say even scientific, outlook that I absolutley believe to be true.

As far as money is concerned, perhaps some of us know what it is like to have been poor. Some of us know about class warfare. Some of us do not want to go back there.

You are young and I can see that you responded to several posts in succession so I will forgive you for what you have written.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: January 19, 2008 01:49PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:...
> > ....It should be noted that the
> > > renovation of South Lakes High School
> included
> > > specific facilities to support the
> > implementation
> > > of this consortium concept...
> The FCPS staff said on Monday that South Lakes is
> getting a small culinary arts program because the
> one at Chantilly is vastly over-enrolled and there
> is a strong demand. That's all I know.

So while RK's at Chantilly sit in a modular without an expanded core facility FX built an addition at Westfield? And now Langley - for what digital photogrpahy and fashion marketing? If they are using the space at Westfield why can't ALL the cooking move there? How mnay industrial-commercial grade kitchens are we paying for at South Lkaes?

I'm ticked about the 2 story art wing. No space in the prior building footprint? There was and this is junk. meanhile people who want AP won't be able to get it and IB promoters are complaining about taxes. Well, an uncrowded suburban school like South Lkaes IS a luxury. now it is renovated and if the very same kids in IB HL were at an AP they would have far funding based on the costs of IB v AP.

Whose fault is this underenrollment? Ask Stu Gibson and Jane Strauss. They are the main particpants and come up with the answers.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: BirdLover ()
Date: January 19, 2008 02:09PM

Stephanie,

Re-read my post. It is not directed at you. What are you, 16 or so? I would never hold you or any child responsible for the elitist views held by the adults promoting this redistricting scheme. Yet, if the South Lakes students are anything like their parents posting here, it is rather frightening.

But Stephanie, it's the weekend. Relax and have some fun with your friends. I hope we get some more snow, don't you? Two of my children are currently skiing at Mananutten. They're unable to get a cell signal up there, so I can't report to you if the conditions are any good, but still, I'm sure they're having FUN. So, put down that essay you're working on, forget about the adults on this message board discussing this rather boring subject and go ahead and be 16, while you've got the chance.

regards,
bird

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ahem ()
Date: January 19, 2008 02:58PM

Stephanie is an IB student. Correct? I thought this program was supposed to teach a child how to write essays. Stephanie miisspellls every other word, can't write a proper sentence and has trouble conveying a lucid thought. Why would anyone want their children enrolled in a program that would teach them to write like this?

I noticed she used 'ahem' in one of her last posts. I think the only other poster who uses 'ahem' is Carifier.

I'm not making any conclusions here; I'm merely noting my, ahem, observations.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 03:22PM

>>>>I have not seen one answer from any of the SL supporters to answer some of our questions about what is the UPSIDE for our potentially redistricted kids.<<<

Surely you have seen the upside posted over and over again.

DIVERSITY. Your children will get to go to a school with DIVERSITY. AND, on top of that, they will have the opportunity to experience a very difficult, challenging, and rigorous academic program. IB. However, they cannot experience these two things simultaneously since very few 'diverse' students are in the IB program.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 03:29PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> > I'm
> > familiar with the Consortia which weirdly
> enough
> > do not match Clusters. Clusters and Consortia
> > should be coordinated. What will happen with
> > Marshall? Can that thing be moved to Falls
> > Church? There are some peculiar allignments
> > including Stuart and Langley. Who knew they
> were
> > in the same geographic area?
>
> ------------
> Three Areas. Eight clusters. Five consortia. We
> seem to be starting all over with new groupings.
>
> Does anyone know the current consortia? The ones I
> heard a year ago seem to have changed.

Will the Consortia replace Clusters? Or are they just another layer of the bureaucracy?

I have the list of consortia that Dr. Dale passed out in the fall, somewhere around here............

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 19, 2008 03:47PM

ahem Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephanie is an IB student. Correct? I thought
> this program was supposed to teach a child how to
> write essays. Stephanie miisspellls every other
> word, can't write a proper sentence and has
> trouble conveying a lucid thought. Why would
> anyone want their children enrolled in a program
> that would teach them to write like this?
>
> I noticed she used 'ahem' in one of her last
> posts. I think the only other poster who uses
> 'ahem' is Carifier.
>
> I'm not making any conclusions here; I'm merely
> noting my, ahem, observations.

Yes, it is rather unusual for a teenager to use 'ahem'.

I didn't want to hurt Stephanie's feelings, because we've all learned how self esteem is more important than anything else, but I do wish she would use paragraph breaks when she writes. Without them, it is very difficult to follow her rather rambling thoughts.

Clarifier is off fighting racism and bigotry, far and wide, across Fairfax county, as she has done for her entire, politically correct, always perfectly moral, life. Always fighting evil racism and standing up to bigotry wherever it may rear its ugly head. Now she must turn all of her efforts to her own neighborhood, one that opposed redistricting! Who knew that she had chosen so poorly, a neighborhood rife with bigots and racists? I am certain that she is much too busy, fighting for truth, justice, and the non bigoted American way, to be posing as a teenager and posting here.

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