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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 13, 2008 12:21PM

Other than the usual concerns that this isn't what the board asked for, etc., what would be the principal objections to a scenario like so:

Move Reston addresses in Aldrin and Armstrong to South Lakes, adding 350 students or so to bring it to about 1800.

Backfill the loss at Herndon with a similar number of kids from Forestville elementary, which seems to be about the size of the (Amstrong+Adrin). This would leave Langley at something like 1750 so wouldn't require the addition.

If this is too many people moving, it could also make sense to (say) move just Aldrin, and just half of Forestville.

This seems like a clear win from a transportation and demongraphics standpoint (less than 1% RFL at Forestville), and is neutral to positive in terms of enhancing community.

It doesn't reduce size of Westfield and Chantilly, but that's not particularly a concern.

Is there some reason that would be a terrible proposal? Aside from the Langley impact, NOth Reston folks not wanting to cross the toll road, etc...?


Also, does anybody know why the state shows the FRL % at South Lakes as only 26% back in May, when the county shows it as 33%?

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Finance/Nutrition/SchoolLevel-Free&ReducedEligibilityOCT2006.pdf

Reports from previous years seems to show something similar. The 33% seems unusual in that context...why did it suddenly change?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 13, 2008 12:28PM

Just say No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Party doesn't matter on the last board or this (10-2)
>
------------
Party does not matter on the school board? Please do not take offense, but this comment ranks up there with "over capacity crowds for football games" for a laugh factor.

Do you really believe we have a "non-partisan" school board?

Do I need to take the time to show you how many votes have had only one or two opposing votes, and those from the minority party? Not just this board or the last but going back to the era of 8-4 votes and 7-5 votes? (Guess how many Republicans were on the board each time.)

Or we could simply list the names of the opposing votes for each issue - guess which names will show up again and again?

Even if you are a core member - of either political party - do you believe the students, the school system, the parents, or the county, are best served by a "kumbaya" school board where they all hold hands and vote the party line?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SapphicHokieMom ()
Date: January 13, 2008 12:35PM

People...I think that more than a few of you need to get some sleep and/or get outside for a while. Posting non-stop 24/7 cannot be healthy. Do you keep your browser on FU and keep hitting 'refresh' every couple of minutes while drinking your coffee?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 13, 2008 12:37PM

I think the poll results are telling as to why Fox Mill and Floris are in the Radar of Stu Gibson. Pay backs can be hell.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/eb/webreports/RESU0707.pdf

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Just say No ()
Date: January 13, 2008 12:38PM

FR-
I didn't say non partisan, did I?

Party isn't a factor. You have 2 Republicans this term and last. The Republicans don't matter. In fact Tessie is closer to Stu and Kathy then anyone else. So all that is left is the Dems on this board. They control it, but it doesn't mean they get along and they don't. Certainly on macro issues they follow the Democratic mantra but if you think this board will follow "party lines" for a "micro" issue like a boundary study you are mistaken.

Do you get it now?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 13, 2008 12:54PM

Just say No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR-
> I didn't say non partisan, did I?
>
> Party isn't a factor. ... Do you get it now?

Uhh, no. What is the difference between voting along party lines and voting along partisan lines?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Just say No ()
Date: January 13, 2008 01:04PM

FR-
Neen indicated that the vote for the boundary would be 10-2 which I assumed she took to mean along party lines.

The board typically will vote along party lines when they do something big like vote to forgo NCLB or vote not to let private schools use school busses (11-1) which is what I think you are saying. The Republicans don't matter

For a boundary the board will typically defer to the local member for their decision. The problem here is that many SB don't like Stu as he messed with their District issues. Kathy has problems as she is the queen of Strategic Governance.

And this boundary study has major problems.

Do you think Hone will vote with Stu?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: VaDriver ()
Date: January 13, 2008 01:13PM

Forum Reader asks.. By "updated tests" do you mean the student had to be re-qualified for Special Ed and special accommodations?

No, this student was easily renewed for continued special ed accommodations. All “three year meetings”, as well the yearly update, were approved by FCPS. Never a glitch. Never a request or suggestion for extra testing. Never a challenge as to the necessity of accommodations.

Forum asks .... If so, how old were the previous tests? How long had this student been in self-contained classes?

Tests were at least 7 years old. Parent was unaware of a change occurring at College Boards. Student was in self contained for many years and in self contained when the decline letter arrived at the school. Accommodations, or lack there of, directly impact on this students ability to be successful during an exam.

A parent is blindsided when told their IEP holding student has been officially declined by the College Board and will not receive accommodations for the SAT. Adding insult to injury, that student will not be given tests (by FCPS) to satisfy the College Board requirements as demanded by the decline letter. This information is not meant to be an indictment of the FCPS special ed program. The parent has believed it to be excellent…except for this fatal flaw. And as stated before, this parent had the resources to go outside the school for testing so as to meet the demands of the College Board.

But, it is offered to assist others who are examining the change in SAT results at other schools. I have absolutely no idea if this particular students situation was unique or one that is occurring to others.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 13, 2008 01:33PM

VaDriver Wrote:
> ... Parent was
> unaware of a change occurring at College Boards.
> Student was in self contained for many years and
> in self contained when the decline letter arrived
> at the school. Accommodations, or lack there of,
> directly impact on this students ability to be
> successful during an exam.
>
> A parent is blindsided when told their IEP holding
> student has been officially declined by the
> College Board and will not receive accommodations
> for the SAT. Adding insult to injury, that student
> will not be given tests (by FCPS) to satisfy the
> College Board requirements as demanded by the
> decline letter. ... And as stated before, this
> parent had the resources to go outside the school
> for testing so as to meet the demands of the
> College Board.
>
Sorry, but I seem to be really slow today. I still don't know what you are writing about. What sort of disability? What sort of accommodations? What sort of tests were FCPS supposed to administer to satisfy the College Board?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 13, 2008 01:35PM

VaDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader asks.. By "updated tests" do you
> mean the student had to be re-qualified for
> Special Ed and special accommodations?
>
> No, this student was easily renewed for continued
> special ed accommodations. All “three year
> meetings”, as well the yearly update, were
> approved by FCPS. Never a glitch. Never a
> request or suggestion for extra testing. Never a
> challenge as to the necessity of accommodations.
>
>
> Forum asks .... If so, how old were the previous
> tests? How long had this student been in
> self-contained classes?
>
> Tests were at least 7 years old. Parent was
> unaware of a change occurring at College Boards.
> Student was in self contained for many years and
> in self contained when the decline letter arrived
> at the school. Accommodations, or lack there of,
> directly impact on this students ability to be
> successful during an exam.
>
> A parent is blindsided when told their IEP holding
> student has been officially declined by the
> College Board and will not receive accommodations
> for the SAT. Adding insult to injury, that student
> will not be given tests (by FCPS) to satisfy the
> College Board requirements as demanded by the
> decline letter. This information is not meant to
> be an indictment of the FCPS special ed program.
> The parent has believed it to be excellent…except
> for this fatal flaw. And as stated before, this
> parent had the resources to go outside the school
> for testing so as to meet the demands of the
> College Board.
>
> But, it is offered to assist others who are
> examining the change in SAT results at other
> schools. I have absolutely no idea if this
> particular students situation was unique or one
> that is occurring to others.


Excuse me, but is this related to the high school redistricting?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 13, 2008 01:45PM

I believe this was covered before (see below) -- anyone reading the newspaper only, and who does not go to Klein's blog would get the totally wrong idea about IB. Klein did not even compare HL Math to AP b/c of the differences in the way they are taught. IB HL Math is equivalent (I say better than, but that's because of my math background and experience with both AP and IB) to BC Calc - it's a two-year course because kids do the precalc and calculus during both years (some schools teach the maths covered in different sequences.) No different than pre-calc kids moving into AP Calc.

Re: high school redistricting - update on Fordham Study
Posted by: Clarifier (IP Logged)
Date: November 29, 2007 11:57AM

Re AP vs IB math:

This is what Jay Matthews ACTUALLY wrote:

"On June 4, Klein submitted his report on two courses, AP Calculus AB and IB Mathematics SL. Klein's analysis of AP and IB math was more negative and his grades lower than what the experts on AP and IB English, history and biology courses submitted to Fordham. He would have given the AP math course a C-plus and the IB math course a C-minus. The other reviewers thought none of the courses they looked at deserved anything less than a B-minus."

Anyone care to differentiate between a C+ and a C-, AND average in the "scores" of "other reviewers" who gave them nothing less than a B-? Anyone care to look a the actual course curricula and determine the differences for themselves? They would find they're comparing manadrins to oranges. Also, he couldn't compare Math HL (high-level) because it's taught differently; and that is equivalent to calc BC.

Splitting hairs. Someone needs to take some math.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 13, 2008 01:47PM

Also, does anybody know why the state shows the FRL % at South Lakes as only 26% back in May, when the county shows it as 33%?

[www.doe.virginia.gov]

Reports from previous years seems to show something similar. The 33% seems unusual in that context...why did it suddenly change?


Hi Oakton Parent. Thanks for the link. It is interesting on a number of issues.

You are correct on the FRM issue, it is a pretty big difference. The other thing I noticed is some differences in the in the VDOE statistices for enrollment VS the Fairfax County enrollment figures. As an example:

VDOE says 2541 in Chantilly HS and FCSB says there are 2838
FCSB projects 2008 enrollment to be 2753

VDOE says 1496 in South lakes and FCSB says there are 1443
FCSB projects 2008 enrollment to be 1386

VDOE says 2366 in Oakton and FCSB says there are 2350
FCSB projects 2008 enrollment to be 2277

VDOE says 3225 in Westfield and FCSB says there are 3171
FCSB projects 2008 enrollment to be 3050

The biggest differnece seems to be Chantilly enrollment numbers, buy I do wonder why South lakes is projected to lose 110 students by 2008.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Insider ()
Date: January 13, 2008 01:53PM

Even better, Forum Reader, they attempt to smear any parent who does challenge their orthodoxy as being unsupportive, uncaring etc.... Asking for data to support their wild assumptions means you do not understand how caring and supportive they are trying to be in a particular endeavor.

Making teachers and Administrators feel comfortable, warm and welcomed is the A#1 priority in our current school system -- not excellence.

Classroom teachers oppose many of their decisions but keep quiet for fear of retaliation.

As a consequence, our School Board and Superintendent excel at only one thing: mediocrity.





Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just say No Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Party doesn't matter on the last board or this
> (10-2)
> >
> ------------
> Party does not matter on the school board? Please
> do not take offense, but this comment ranks up
> there with "over capacity crowds for football
> games" for a laugh factor.
>
> Do you really believe we have a "non-partisan"
> school board?
>
> Do I need to take the time to show you how many
> votes have had only one or two opposing votes, and
> those from the minority party? Not just this board
> or the last but going back to the era of 8-4 votes
> and 7-5 votes? (Guess how many Republicans were on
> the board each time.)
>
> Or we could simply list the names of the opposing
> votes for each issue - guess which names will show
> up again and again?
>
> Even if you are a core member - of either
> political party - do you believe the students, the
> school system, the parents, or the county, are
> best served by a "kumbaya" school board where they
> all hold hands and vote the party line?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 13, 2008 02:21PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Other than the usual concerns that this isn't what
> the board asked for, etc., what would be the
> principal objections to a scenario like so:
>
> Move Reston addresses in Aldrin and Armstrong to
> South Lakes, adding 350 students or so to bring it
> to about 1800.
>
> Backfill the loss at Herndon with a similar number
> of kids from Forestville elementary, which seems
> to be about the size of the (Amstrong+Adrin).
> This would leave Langley at something like 1750 so
> wouldn't require the addition.
>
> If this is too many people moving, it could also
> make sense to (say) move just Aldrin, and just
> half of Forestville.
>
> This seems like a clear win from a transportation
> and demongraphics standpoint (less than 1% RFL at
> Forestville), and is neutral to positive in terms
> of enhancing community.
>
> It doesn't reduce size of Westfield and Chantilly,
> but that's not particularly a concern.
>
> Is there some reason that would be a terrible
> proposal? Aside from the Langley impact, NOth
> Reston folks not wanting to cross the toll road,
> etc...?
>
>
> Also, does anybody know why the state shows the
> FRL % at South Lakes as only 26% back in May, when
> the county shows it as 33%?
>
> http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Finance/Nutrition
> /SchoolLevel-Free&ReducedEligibilityOCT2006.pdf
>
> Reports from previous years seems to show
> something similar. The 33% seems unusual in that
> context...why did it suddenly change?

Does anyone know if Fairfax County gets some kind of reimbursment from the State for the FRM program?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Strategic Governance Sucks ()
Date: January 13, 2008 02:23PM

Insider and Just say No are right. The school board just gave most power back to Jack Dale to stifle all the dissonance in hopes that they can elected to new offices.

Its time to go to term limits and at large members.

People that covertly pushed Strategic Governance through like Kathy and Stu were rewarded for their loyalty

The teachers can't stand the administration.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 13, 2008 02:32PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
> ... I noticed is some
> differences in the in the VDOE statistices for
> enrollment VS the Fairfax County enrollment
> figures. As an example:
>
> ... VDOE says 2366 in Oakton and FCSB says there are
> 2350 FCSB projects 2008 enrollment to be 2277
>
--------
Easy question this time. I did not look at every number you posted but in the above example the State number for Oakton was last school year's data and the FCPS number is as of 30 Sep of THIS year.

South Lakes actually increased from 1430 (including 212 Spec Ed) on 30 Sep 2006 to 1443 (including 216 Sped Ed) on 30 Sep 2007.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 13, 2008 03:08PM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe this was covered before (see below) --
> anyone reading the newspaper only, and who does
> not go to Klein's blog would get the totally wrong
> idea about IB. Klein did not even compare HL Math
> to AP b/c of the differences in the way they are
> taught. IB HL Math is equivalent (I say better
> than, but that's because of my math background and
> experience with both AP and IB) to BC Calc - it's
> a two-year course because kids do the precalc and
> calculus during both years (some schools teach the
> maths covered in different sequences.) No
> different than pre-calc kids moving into AP Calc.
>
> Re: high school redistricting - update on Fordham
> Study
> Posted by: Clarifier (IP Logged)
> Date: November 29, 2007 11:57AM
>
> Re AP vs IB math:
>
> This is what Jay Matthews ACTUALLY wrote:
>
> "On June 4, Klein submitted his report on two
> courses, AP Calculus AB and IB Mathematics SL.
> Klein's analysis of AP and IB math was more
> negative and his grades lower than what the
> experts on AP and IB English, history and biology
> courses submitted to Fordham. He would have given
> the AP math course a C-plus and the IB math course
> a C-minus. The other reviewers thought none of the
> courses they looked at deserved anything less than
> a B-minus."
>
> Anyone care to differentiate between a C+ and a
> C-, AND average in the "scores" of "other
> reviewers" who gave them nothing less than a B-?
> Anyone care to look a the actual course curricula
> and determine the differences for themselves? They
> would find they're comparing manadrins to oranges.
> Also, he couldn't compare Math HL (high-level)
> because it's taught differently; and that is
> equivalent to calc BC.
>
> Splitting hairs. Someone needs to take some math.

Whether you happen to like it or not, the Fordham study was about SL vs AB Calc, not about HL vs BC Calc. I didn't set up the study, Fordham did. If you don't like the fact that the study was about SL, if you don't like the fact that the author really didn't like SL, stop using the study to support your claims.

So much for Veritas.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 13, 2008 05:30PM

all of them hypocrites Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> Smith believes that we must get students out of
> Westfield. Her children go to Chantilly so she
> believes firmly in moving students out of
> Chantilly, (her words, not mine.) She is highly
> supportive of this boundary study. She never went
> to boundary study meetings in the past so she
> knows many parents who support this change are not
> at the meetings and are not being heard, based on
> her own lack of involvement when her schools were
> redistricted in the past. She will ask questions
> about the study but supports it.
>
> Smith can not give a valid reason why she thinks
> Chantilly is overcrowded. The community has NOT
> objected at all about overcrowding by her very own
> words! Navy has NO business being moved to a
> school further away. She is a hypocrite as is the
> rest of the board. My suggestion to the board is
> they put aside thier political agendas and really
> start looking at the needs of students and the
> impact of this study. Start all over and include
> ALL high schools in the involved areas. Stop
> paying back your political favors.

Smith said that because her own children go to Chantilly she knows that children need to be moved out. But she said she would question tomorrow the need to move children to a high school that is further (her mistaken use of the word, she meant farther) away. I am assuming she meant Navy students. She wants staff to find a justification for moving them, to provide her with cover.

I would urge everyone to go the work session at Gateway tomorrow. It begins at 1:30n but seating is VERY limited. Arrive early. Work sessions are also a good time to grab a bit of face time with your school board members, before and after the session.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 13, 2008 05:38PM

Strategic Governance Sucks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Insider and Just say No are right. The school
> board just gave most power back to Jack Dale to
> stifle all the dissonance in hopes that they can
> elected to new offices.
>
> Its time to go to term limits and at large
> members.
>
> People that covertly pushed Strategic Governance
> through like Kathy and Stu were rewarded for their
> loyalty
>
> The teachers can't stand the administration.

A couple of questions. Have the teachers ever liked any administration? I remember when they hated Bud Spillane and couldn't stand Dan Domenech. So I guess I don't put much credence in them disliking this administration. Teachers always think that they deserve more money, better working conditions, less paper work. And who doesn't? They're as right as any other worker who gripes about the bosses.

Second question, while I know some SB members support Strategic Governance more than others (it's Phil N-E's baby) I seem to recall that ALL of the SB voted for it. And why not? Now they have no accountability and the whole system has silly goals with no way to measure them. It's a win-win for ALL of them, SB and administration! The buck never stops being passed around! They can play hot potato forever, as long as no one blurts out that the Emperor is wearing no clothes and the whole thing is a silly exercise with no meaning for anyone, other than fuzzy headed bureaucrats who love to talk about 'process' without actually having one.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 13, 2008 05:49PM

>>>they attempt to smear any parent who does challenge their orthodoxy as being unsupportive, uncaring etc..<<<

They also accuse any such parent as being THE ONLY PARENT IN HISTORY to have ever complained or challenged whatever the concern is, just as Jack Dale insists that NO ONE had ever complained about Everyday Math. I was THE FIRST person, in the history of that math program to tell him about dissatisfactions with it. This was last fall. No one ever complained about it since he's been our superintendent.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: tiredofyour2cents ()
Date: January 13, 2008 06:32PM

BTW, majority rules, and IB is NOT mainstream....good for you that you like it, but most parents STILL prefer (and colleges too) AP. This is a big country and everyone is entitled to their opinion....whether you like it or not.

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most parents only KNOW the "mainstream" AP
> program. They fear change. Any change.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stephanie ()
Date: January 13, 2008 06:34PM

I know that I havn't posted on this forum in quite a while, and no Neen I did not go back to check all 160 pages of posts to find the answer, but are any of you aware that parents are allowed the option to tour South Lakes? I'm currently a student at South Lakes in all IB courses, including an extra science, I take both Physics and Biology, but I've noticed many parents throughout the past couple of months sitting in on some of my classes. I wasn't sure if you were aware of this option or not and simply thought you might want to know.
It was only about a month or so ago, that an Oakton student who was to be possibly affected by the redistricting, and who was visiting the school, stopped me in the hallway and asked me quiestons about the courses and classes and the school itself. I was happy to answer them honestly, and she herself, along with her parents were quite pleased with the way my fellow peers and I had presented ourselves between our classes. Something I do remember her noting upon was the way in which South Lakes students are extremely bonded, and there was no clear evidence that we consisted of "cliques."
So I guess my point is that maybe it would be more effective to tour the school first and then make your own decision when it comes to the AP vrs IB debate. I know the rumors and the hearsay allow many to believe that South Lakes does not consist of successful academic students, and that the structure of the IB program is flawed, but I myself coming from the middle school I did, Rachel Carson, have found it very rigorous and challenging. I know the IB program prepares students very well for the difficulties they will face in college from first hand experience, and I myself feel very fortunate for the oppurtunies I have been given throughout the IB program.
IB teaches students to apply themselves both inside school and outside, by being an active member of the community. How so? By performing community service and expressing the artistic and athletic side that lies beneath us all. In order for students to obtain an IB diploma they must complete the courses that are required by the system and perform 150 hours of various displays of work; 50 of community service, 50 creative hours, and 50 athletic hours (which can include sports). Then if this were not enough, students are also required to write an extended essay on a topic of their choosing. Because the IB program requires these extra pieces of work, they help prepare the students that study under its system to become more well rounded and ready for college.
So again, before judging the program, maybe it would be effective to sit in on classes. Perhaps IB Math 1 & 2? As these evidently are the courses in which you are concerned most about. By the way, IB Math 1 & 2 are calculus courses, and although I do not take them myself, I have many friends who do, and are definitly kept busy by the course and the work they must complete in order to understand the information and problems. So again, just take a look before you decide, and try to give the program a fair chance. I understand it's a change, but I don't think IB deserves the "slacker" stereotype its been given, as it is definitly a very challenging program, that has produced and continues to produce a large number of very successful students and alumni.
That's all I have for now, any quiestons and I'd be happy to answer.

-Stephanie

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 13, 2008 06:47PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Couple things on this -
>
> 1) A significant portion of McNair comes from low
> income areas north of the toll road. Not sure how
> much that affects what people see when they drive
> through McNair since they probably don't drive
> through the other sections.

That portion of McNair already goes to HHS, has small percentage of McNair's population but a disproportionate percentage of ESOL and FRL

> 2) Given mobility levels in the McNair area, it'd
> be hard to ascertain McNair's effects since the
> county doesn't provide sufficiently disaggregated
> data.

What are you getting at here?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 13, 2008 06:59PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TM, please provide proof for the following
> statement (if I am not mistaken, you are the one
> who actually introduced it about 100 pages back):
>
> "We've heard about teachers expecting entire plays
> and novels to be read over a weekend with tests on
> the entire content the following class meeting
> (Monday or Tuesday depending if your green or
> blue)."
>
> By proof, I mean a syllabus, or Blackboard.com
> assignment page or confirmation from staff (not a
> disgruntled student) that this is indeed how
> coursework is taught at South Lakes.

I gave the specifics of this about 120 pages ago. Feel free.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 13, 2008 07:00PM

Stephanie Wrote:
> ... IB Math 1 & 2 are calculus courses, and although I
> do not take them myself, ...
> That's all I have for now, any quiestons and I'd
> be happy to answer.

Nice to see you back. Are you going for the full IB Diploma? If so, what IB math are you taking?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 13, 2008 07:18PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Couple things on this -
> >
> > 1) A significant portion of McNair comes from
> low
> > income areas north of the toll road. Not sure
> how
> > much that affects what people see when they
> drive
> > through McNair since they probably don't drive
> > through the other sections.
>
> That portion of McNair already goes to HHS, has
> small percentage of McNair's population but a
> disproportionate percentage of ESOL and FRL
>
Understood, but since the area would show up in general statistics for McNair, overall McNair ESOL, etc. would be higher than for the area that's under discussion here.
>
> > 2) Given mobility levels in the McNair area,
> it'd
> > be hard to ascertain McNair's effects since the
> > county doesn't provide sufficiently
> disaggregated
> > data.
>
> What are you getting at here?

Given the mobility rates at McNair, only a small fraction of the kids showing up at higher grades would have gone all the way through McNair. Without statistics for those kids, it'd be hard to discuss the impact of McNair on their relative success.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 13, 2008 07:19PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, does anybody know why the state shows the FRL % at South Lakes as only 26%
> back in May, when the county shows it as 33%?
>
> http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Finance/Nutrition /SchoolLevel-Free&ReducedEligibilityOCT2006.pdf
>
> Reports from previous years seems to show something similar. The 33% seems
> unusual in that context...why did it suddenly change?

This was discussed at a mtg at SL. Can't remember which one.

Apparently, as year goes on, teachers monitoring lunch notice which kids are chronically not eating lunch. Apparently some kids who are eligible for FRM don't apply because of a perceived stigma.

When they see this, teachers or administrators make sure the kids fills out the forms to qualify for FRM, if they are eligible.

Turns out FRM kids use the same meal card everyone else uses to buy their lunch but some FRM eligible kids don't know that so they don't file the paperwork.

So the gross numbers and % of FRM grows over the year.

If the report to VDOE goes in during the year it's going to be lower than the year end total.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: January 13, 2008 07:31PM

Thomas More Wrote:
> ... Turns out FRM kids use the same meal card everyone
> else uses to buy their lunch but some FRM eligible
> kids don't know that so they don't file the
> paperwork.
>
> So the gross numbers and % of FRM grows over the
> year.
>
> If the report to VDOE goes in during the year it's
> going to be lower than the year end total.

Was this a one time event, that the teachers went looking for students not eating lunch? To grow from 26% to 33% in that short period is a significant jump. One would assume MOST of students who were eligible for FRM already knew this from previous years. What an indictment of the school system if so many eligible students made it to high school without ever being aware of the FRM program and that they would not be stigmatized by it.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 13, 2008 07:50PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was this a one time event, that the teachers went
> looking for students not eating lunch? To grow
> from 26% to 33% in that short period is a
> significant jump. One would assume MOST of
> students who were eligible for FRM already knew
> this from previous years. What an indictment of
> the school system if so many eligible students
> made it to high school without ever being aware of
> the FRM program and that they would not be
> stigmatized by it.

It's only 100 kids. We were told it goes on all through the year.

I'm speculating but I can imagine that kids moving into SL or suffering an adverse change in family finances during the school year (divorce, layoffs) might not know about FRM. Over 11 years with kids at SL, I've known more than a few kids who have experienced a seriously adverse change in financial status during the school year.

A related phenomenon is the athletes who can't get home on game day before warm-ups or the bus's departure for an away game and were scrounging for left overs from the meals the coaches bought themselves. The coaches asked parents to put meals together for the whole team so that everybody was fed before the game, no one was embarrassed and team unity is enhanced. Unfortunately with most families having two parents working, the burden of this effort falls on the few stay at home and self-employed moms every year.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 13, 2008 08:02PM

Stephanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm currently a student at South Lakes in all IB courses,
> including an extra science, I take both Physics
> and Biology,

Not only are you brilliant, you have the intellectual stamina of an elephant, WOW.

> Something I do remember her noting upon was the
> way in which South Lakes students are extremely
> bonded, and there was no clear evidence that we
> consisted of "cliques."

That is the greatest part of SL and it's been that way for all 11 years that I've had kids at SL.

> IB teaches students to apply themselves both
> inside school and outside, by being an active
> member of the community. How so? By performing
> community service and expressing the artistic and
> athletic side that lies beneath us all. In order
> for students to obtain an IB diploma they must
> complete the courses that are required by the
> system and perform 150 hours of various displays
> of work; 50 of community service, 50 creative
> hours, and 50 athletic hours (which can include
> sports). Then if this were not enough, students
> are also required to write an extended essay on a
> topic of their choosing. Because the IB program
> requires these extra pieces of work, they help
> prepare the students that study under its system
> to become more well rounded and ready for
> college.

I can see why kids drop out of the IB diploma program after junior year. It's very demanding.

> I don't think IB deserves the "slacker" stereotype

I've not seen anyone on this forum make that statement. It would certainly not be accurate or deserved, just the opposite.

How many kids are in each of your classes?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2008 08:08PM by Thomas More.

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Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 13, 2008 08:10PM

"A related phenomenon is the athletes who can't get home on game day before warm-ups or the bus's departure for an away game and were scrounging for left overs from the meals the coaches bought themselves. The coaches asked parents to put meals together for the whole team so that everybody was fed before the game, no one was embarrassed and team unity is enhanced. Unfortunately with most families having two parents working, the burden of this effort falls on the few stay at home and self-employed moms every year."

See, this is the kind of thing that Oakton has down pat. My daughter played a sports team, and the infrastructure was there so that each family took a turn signing up for these meals. It wasn't left to chance or to a few dedicated parents: EVERYONE did it. Honestly, it's partly these differences that makes some of us prefer Oakton or Westfield. Those schools are brimming with organized, involved parents. I can understand that it gets old at SL for the same parents to always do the volunteer work. I agree that it isn't fair. But, I have enough to do in my family life without wanting to send my kids to a school that doesn't already have its act together. Maybe 5 years from now the Fox Mill/Floris parents will have the SL volunteer machine running smoothly, but the first year? No thanks. And don't say we're being selfish and unwilling to spread the wealth or whatever. Don't say we're being elitist. Lots of Oakton and Westfield kids come from families w/o a full-time homemaker. If a kid plays on the team, the kid's family can contribute to the effort in some way. Maybe it's actually more elitist to assume that a family can't do these things, or at least do something. How would you feel if you were a "less advantaged" parent and no one ever asked you to help out because they assumed you couldn't do it?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 14, 2008 12:59AM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NotSoFast Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SB must pay outside attorneys.
>
> They've had outside counsel on retainer for
> decades, Tom Cawley of Hunton & "Gruntin" aka
> Hunton & Williams. Very expense but I wouldn't be
> surprised if there is a volume discount for FCPS

There's someone who is happy about this redistricting! Their firm will make a boatload of money defending FCPS.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:11AM

Just say No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR-
> I didn't say non partisan, did I?
>
> Party isn't a factor. You have 2 Republicans this
> term and last. The Republicans don't matter. In
> fact Tessie is closer to Stu and Kathy then anyone
> else. So all that is left is the Dems on this
> board. They control it, but it doesn't mean they
> get along and they don't. Certainly on macro
> issues they follow the Democratic mantra but if
> you think this board will follow "party lines" for
> a "micro" issue like a boundary study you are
> mistaken.
>
> Do you get it now?

Tessie would take offense anyone characterizing her as close to Kathy Smith! Sheeze. You must not know her very well.

Yes, there are too groups of democrats on the school board and they don't always agree. But when it comes to voting, they'll nearly always vote together.

There is no reason for redistricting to be a party issue. No school board member will get involved in what happens in another member's district. Kaye Kory, Brad Canter, Dan Storck, and the rest, have little interest in the redistricting in Stu's district. Why would they? They wouldn't want him telling them what happens in their districts so they won't tell him what to do in his district. That was rather obvious on Thursday night. Stu isn't moving anyone from outside of Hunter Mill so no other board member is involved, with the exception of Janie in the tiny number of students in the Madison Island. Moon will support Stu. He's never paid much attention to what voters tell him. Raney and Hone won't vote with Stu because they have voters who care, a lot, in Hunter Mill. The others, with the possible exception of Janie, will vote along with Stu because their voters don't care and it's not their district. It will pass by 10 to 2 or 9 to 3, if Janie needs the cover to look like she's standing up for the Madison Island.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:21AM

Just say No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR-
> Neen indicated that the vote for the boundary
> would be 10-2 which I assumed she took to mean
> along party lines.
>
> The board typically will vote along party lines
> when they do something big like vote to forgo NCLB
> or vote not to let private schools use school
> busses (11-1) which is what I think you are
> saying. The Republicans don't matter
>
> For a boundary the board will typically defer to
> the local member for their decision. The problem
> here is that many SB don't like Stu as he messed
> with their District issues. Kathy has problems as
> she is the queen of Strategic Governance.
>
> And this boundary study has major problems.
>
> Do you think Hone will vote with Stu?

I did NOT mean the vote would have anything to do with party. In fact, those who will vote against Stu will be democrats, Hone and Raney.

Kathy was quite adamant that she supports this boundary change. She will definitely vote for it.

While many members may not like Stu, they have no reason to vote against him in this instance. Stu has not voted against redistricting in other districts, has he? If he voted against what another school board member wanted done in his district, then yes, that member may return the favor, but I don't recall such a vote on boundaries.

Would you be so kind as to tell us when Stu voted against what another member wanted done in their own district?

Thanks.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:26AM

VaDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader asks.. By "updated tests" do you
> mean the student had to be re-qualified for
> Special Ed and special accommodations?
>
> No, this student was easily renewed for continued
> special ed accommodations. All “three year
> meetings”, as well the yearly update, were
> approved by FCPS. Never a glitch. Never a
> request or suggestion for extra testing. Never a
> challenge as to the necessity of accommodations.
>
>
> Forum asks .... If so, how old were the previous
> tests? How long had this student been in
> self-contained classes?
>
> Tests were at least 7 years old. Parent was
> unaware of a change occurring at College Boards.
> Student was in self contained for many years and
> in self contained when the decline letter arrived
> at the school. Accommodations, or lack there of,
> directly impact on this students ability to be
> successful during an exam.
>
> A parent is blindsided when told their IEP holding
> student has been officially declined by the
> College Board and will not receive accommodations
> for the SAT. Adding insult to injury, that student
> will not be given tests (by FCPS) to satisfy the
> College Board requirements as demanded by the
> decline letter. This information is not meant to
> be an indictment of the FCPS special ed program.
> The parent has believed it to be excellent…except
> for this fatal flaw. And as stated before, this
> parent had the resources to go outside the school
> for testing so as to meet the demands of the
> College Board.
>
> But, it is offered to assist others who are
> examining the change in SAT results at other
> schools. I have absolutely no idea if this
> particular students situation was unique or one
> that is occurring to others.

I am wondering if this is a result of the college board no longer designating that LD students have taken the SAT 'under special circumstances" on SAT results and on reports to colleges? Perhaps they have made the rules more strict since they abolished that designation a few years back.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:29AM

> Excuse me, but is this related to the high school
> redistricting?<<<

Yes. We are trying to determine why SL SAT scores would jump so much in one year, assuming that it wasn't just a random, one time, occurrence.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:32AM

>>>>In order
> for students to obtain an IB diploma they must
> complete the courses that are required by the
> system and perform 150 hours of various displays
> of work; 50 of community service, 50 creative
> hours, and 50 athletic hours (which can include
> sports). Then if this were not enough, students
> are also required to write an extended essay on a
> topic of their choosing. Because the IB program
> requires these extra pieces of work, they help
> prepare the students that study under its system
> to become more well rounded and ready for
> college.<<<

Since college requires no athletics, no community service, and no art projects, how does all that help to prepare IB students for college?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Anonymous ()
Date: January 14, 2008 06:09AM

Neen,
How about Storck and his boundaries

How about Kory and Glasgow

He is even allegedly sticking it to Bradsher and her middle school

And he cemented his reputation when he macacced on Hone and Raney

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 06:17AM

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See, this is the kind of thing that Oakton has
> down pat. My daughter played a sports team, and
> the infrastructure was there so that each family
> took a turn signing up for these meals. It wasn't
> left to chance or to a few dedicated parents:
> EVERYONE did it. Honestly, it's partly these
> differences that makes some of us prefer Oakton or
> Westfield. Those schools are brimming with
> organized, involved parents. I can understand that
> it gets old at SL for the same parents to always
> do the volunteer work. I agree that it isn't fair.
> But, I have enough to do in my family life without
> wanting to send my kids to a school that doesn't
> already have its act together. Maybe 5 years from
> now the Fox Mill/Floris parents will have the SL
> volunteer machine running smoothly, but the first
> year? No thanks. And don't say we're being selfish
> and unwilling to spread the wealth or whatever.
> Don't say we're being elitist. Lots of Oakton and
> Westfield kids come from families w/o a full-time
> homemaker. If a kid plays on the team, the kid's
> family can contribute to the effort in some way.
> Maybe it's actually more elitist to assume that a
> family can't do these things, or at least do
> something. How would you feel if you were a "less
> advantaged" parent and no one ever asked you to
> help out because they assumed you couldn't do it?

About the same as I do reading this condescending post.

With 10% FRM at Oakton, there couldn't have been nearly as many team members waiting on coaches left overs for a pre-game meal.

Most of Oakton's upper classman drive to school. So they can drive home for their pre-game meal. At SL, the student parking spaces never sell out, even when they were significantly reduced during the renovation.

All the parents of the teams are personally asked to help. Those who beg off because of work schedule or financial circumstances are respected and make other contributions, like working the concession stand or serving on the "chain gang". Then there are the rich entitled families who act like they are above all of this and never pitch in, but we shrug and move on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2008 06:33AM by Thomas More.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 08:31AM

The school is expected to move its students on to nearby Rachel Carson Middle School who will "probably" then go on to Westfield High School, with a potential for some to move on to South Lake High School, according to Chevalier.

http://connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=80209&paper=66&cat=104

Regarding the Coppermine ES, does anyone have an idea as to how the SB plans to feed the new school? "East Floris" currently attends Floris ES. The quote in the article implies that most of Coppermine would feed to Westfield, with a "possibility" of some going on to South Lakes. It sounds like a brand new ES will open as a split feeder. This again raises the question of why the SB did not wait a year, and do one boundary study with Coppermine included. I am sure that Stu has thought about this, and has a plan in mind already. This is another example of the disdain that the SB continues to show towards the Floris community.

Also , does anyone have an idea about what "future development" is being referred to in the article? It would seem to me, that if the SB is expecting a lot of new development in the Herndon area, that they should consider shifting the "new" families into South Lakes

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 14, 2008 08:49AM

Here is all the new development as listed on the fcps web site - http://www.fcps.edu/schlbd/DullesAreaDevelopment.pdf

It's huge

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 08:56AM

Thank you word. It appears that almost all of the construction is multi family, which typically includes ADU's in addition to the market rate homes. My concern, is that either Coppermine is going to become another McNair ES with almost all homes feeding it either APT, Condo or TH. Because of the transient nature of the housing, it makes it tough to build a strong base in elementary schools with demographic.

I am concerned that the SB will decide that "East Floris" will be removed from Floris ES, and become part of Coppermine. Any thoughts?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:21AM

I would have thought that number of teachers would be proportioal to number of students, but there are large variances. Some examples include:

Schools with about 120 (+/-4) teachers include Marshall (1325 students), Hayfield (1582), and McLean (1768)

Schools with about 140 (+/3) teachers include South Lakes (1443), Madison (1910), and Langley (2082)

Schools with about 160 (+/-4) teachers include Edison (1776), Mt vernon (1758), Herndon (2190), Farifax (212) and Oakton (2350).

While there are some differences in programs and demographics at the schools, in general, schools with more teachers / student have less desirable demographics, and also consistenly offer IB vs. AP. In most cases, an IB school has about the number of teachers found at an AP school with 300-400 more students.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 14, 2008 10:12AM

I think Coppermine will be used to dilute the underachievers at McNair in an attempt to get it out of failure status with respect to NCLB. So yea, if you live close to either McNair or Coppermine be prepared for some more some additional social engineering.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 14, 2008 10:23AM

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Coppermine will be used to dilute the
> underachievers at McNair in an attempt to get it
> out of failure status with respect to NCLB. So
> yea, if you live close to either McNair or
> Coppermine be prepared for some more some
> additional social engineering.


More like another redistricting?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 14, 2008 10:40AM

Yes but only for Elementary Schools this time

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: dot ()
Date: January 14, 2008 10:52AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Since college requires no athletics, no community
> service, and no art projects, how does all that
> help to prepare IB students for college?


College admissions does.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 14, 2008 10:55AM

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes but only for Elementary Schools this time


Oh ok..hmm I think somebody made a post somewhere on this thread, but I can't remember..I personally do not see an urgency to redistrict now for the current study --does anybody know why the sudden urgent need for SL to have more kids bussed to there for next fall? With the Langley expansion underway and the Coppermine school opening next year, wouldn't it make more sense just to wait next year and make the process right this time?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 11:37AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you word. It appears that almost all of the
> construction is multi family, which typically
> includes ADU's in addition to the market rate
> homes. My concern, is that either Coppermine is
> going to become another McNair ES with almost all
> homes feeding it either APT, Condo or TH. Because
> of the transient nature of the housing, it makes
> it tough to build a strong base in elementary
> schools with demographic.
>
> I am concerned that the SB will decide that "East
> Floris" will be removed from Floris ES, and become
> part of Coppermine. Any thoughts?

There are 4741 multi-family units in the pipeline west of Centerville Road in the McNair Attendance area. Most will be garden apts. So expect about 336 new high school kids from that area.

The portion east of Centreville will add 2814 mostly garden units. Expect 200 high school kids from that area.

I expect that there will be enough K-6 kids west of Centerville Road to fill Coopermine.

Why anyone would talk about moving kids from Floris to Coopermine is not immediately clear.

It's just appalling to me that people on this forum treat McNair as if it were Watts, Bed Sty or Cabrini Green. There are multiple gated TH commuities there, folks. Enough with the snobbery already.

ADU make up 10% or less of any project, including sfd's, with 50 or more units.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2008 11:45AM by Thomas More.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 12:10PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thank you word. It appears that almost all of
> the
> > construction is multi family, which typically
> > includes ADU's in addition to the market rate
> > homes. My concern, is that either Coppermine is
> > going to become another McNair ES with almost
> all
> > homes feeding it either APT, Condo or TH.
> Because
> > of the transient nature of the housing, it
> makes
> > it tough to build a strong base in elementary
> > schools with demographic.
> >
> > I am concerned that the SB will decide that
> "East
> > Floris" will be removed from Floris ES, and
> become
> > part of Coppermine. Any thoughts?
>
> There are 4741 multi-family units in the pipeline
> west of Centerville Road in the McNair Attendance
> area. Most will be garden apts. So expect about
> 336 new high school kids from that area.
>
> The portion east of Centreville will add 2814
> mostly garden units. Expect 200 high school kids
> from that area.
>
> I expect that there will be enough K-6 kids west
> of Centerville Road to fill Coopermine.
>
> Why anyone would talk about moving kids from
> Floris to Coopermine is not immediately clear.
>
> It's just appalling to me that people on this
> forum treat McNair as if it were Watts, Bed Sty or
> Cabrini Green. There are multiple gated TH
> commuities there, folks. Enough with the snobbery
> already.
>
> ADU make up 10% or less of any project, including
> sfd's, with 50 or more units.


Thomas Moore,

I am not putting McNair Farms down in any way. I sold many homes in McNair, and Live right behind it. I do think that it may have been poor planning to put McNair ES in the middle of such a high density area though. It is a fact that apartment rentals by their very nature are transient, and this does create much turn over in McNair ES. The mobility rate is much higher at McNair, compared to Floris, Oak Hill and Fox Mill.

The reason that I feel that East Floris may be moved to Coppermine, is because of this quote "The school is expected to move its students on to nearby Rachel Carson Middle School who will "probably" then go on to Westfield High School, with a potential for some to move on to South Lake High School, according to Chevalier."

Based on this quote, and recognizing that McNair ES is staying in Westfield, and figuring that the SB is not going to ship children from the West side of Centerville Road to South lakes, who do you think Chevalier is referring to?

I am sure that you will agree that based on the types of homes that are either built, or are going to be built on the West Side of Centerville road, the county is setting up another McNair ES situation. All Multi family, and no SF.If you disagree, please state your reasons.

I believe that the SB has calculated that once Floris is split, it will be easier to move us over to Coppermine, and dilute the mutlifamily homes with higher end SF homes.

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Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 14, 2008 12:33PM

Floris Parent,
If you have an issue with the housing going in for Coppermine, contact the Board of Supervisors. They are the ones creating Title one schools before they even open with their housing development policies. FCPS has the tough job of cleaning up after them.

Talk about social engineering.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:03PM

I agree with you SL Pyramid Parent. I am shocked that there are so many multi-family dwellings planned for the area. I read a statistic that says that Multi-family adds about 29 children per 100 units vs. 64 children per 100 SF homes.

http://www.nmhc.org/Content/ServeFile.cfm?FileID=5717

Using 29 children per one hundred apartments, and with plans for about 4700 multi family units built or to be built, this would generate about 1363 school aged children. I am not sure how large Commpermine ES is going to be, but when all is built out west of Centerville road, the existing Elementary schools will be stressed. In addition, using Thomas Moore's stat of 10% of new housing being of the ADU variety, this means an additional 470 lower income families feeding into the schools, whether they be Floris, McNair or the new Coppermine ES Coppermine ES. Again, I have no problem with ADU housing, but many people in Reston have made issues about the disparity of Lower socio-economic students in the various schools.

I do not have a problem with Multi-family housing, as they are needed in high cost areas like the DC Metro area. What needs to be understood though, is that most people do not live in apartments for 10-15 years, but maybe a year or 2 since they are generally stepping stones until for more permanent housing is found. I think that several posters from Reston have indicated that the size and transient nature of most of the housing stock in and around South Lakes is older, and smaller, and that most folks move out of Reston when their children are old enough to go to high school. When you look at all of the new housing in general that is planned for both Reston as well as Herndon, it is almost entirely Multi-Family. The long term prospects for filling up South Lakes seems challenging, based on current and future housing.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Grocery Cart ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:07PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you word. It appears that almost all of the
> construction is multi family, which typically
> includes ADU's in addition to the market rate
> homes. My concern, is that either Coppermine is
> going to become another McNair ES with almost all
> homes feeding it either APT, Condo or TH. Because
> of the transient nature of the housing, it makes
> it tough to build a strong base in elementary
> schools with demographic.
>
> I am concerned that the SB will decide that "East
> Floris" will be removed from Floris ES, and become
> part of Coppermine. Any thoughts?



Expect all of Floris to be scattered between McNair, Coppermine and Floris. No more "Howdy, neighbor!" Some McNair kids will go to Floris along with Oak Hill kids. Some McNair will be sent to Coppermine. All those McNair kids pupil-placed out because of NCLB, maybe they get to move back close to home. Who knows? Some Floris kids may end up at Oak Hill in the exchange. Wouldn't be surprised if Fox Mill doesn't end up on the big carousel. While they are shuffling around the "haves" and "have-nots" don't be surprised if Dogwood is invited to the carnival. They could use some social engineering help, as well.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:10PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Thomas Moore,
>
> I am not putting McNair Farms down in any way. I
> sold many homes in McNair, and Live right behind
> it.

Then you should already know about the gated townhouse communities and other high end residential in that area.

I do think that it may have been poor planning
> to put McNair ES in the middle of such a high
> density area though.

Why? All the units are very nice, recent construction.

> It is a fact that apartment
> rentals by their very nature are transient, and
> this does create much turn over in McNair ES. The
> mobility rate is much higher at McNair, compared
> to Floris, Oak Hill and Fox Mill.

The mobility rates in the entirety of the Metro DC area are higher than the rest of the country. Are all of FFX schools therefore suspect to the rest of the Country because of this. Isn't mobility just a euphemism for "them"?

> The reason that I feel that East Floris may be
> moved to Coppermine, is because of this quote "The
> school is expected to move its students on to
> nearby Rachel Carson Middle School who will
> "probably" then go on to Westfield High School,
> with a potential for some to move on to South Lake
> High School, according to Chevalier."
>
> Based on this quote, and recognizing that McNair
> ES is staying in Westfield, and figuring that the
> SB is not going to ship children from the West
> side of Centerville Road to South lakes, who do
> you think Chevalier is referring to?

Chevalier made that statement last August. That's 5, count 'em, 5 months ago. That's several life times in politics.

Do we even know if he was quoted accurately?

At that time it looked like new McNair (i.e., east of Centerville) was the ES to be reassigned to SL, along with Fox Mill. Then the South Lakes Boundary Study Group came up with Option 5, in large part to avoid McNair. Events have clearly overtaken Chevalier's statement.

Either Coopermine or McNair could be assigned to HHS later. HHS will still have the room if Option 5 is adopted. Because SL will be overenrolled if Option 5 is adopted, the SB will not be able to send either McNair or Coopermine to SL.

> I am sure that you will agree that based on the
> types of homes that are either built, or are going
> to be built on the West Side of Centerville road,
> the county is setting up another McNair ES
> situation. All Multi family, and no SF.If you
> disagree, please state your reasons.

There is nothing wrong with McNair south of the Toll Road. It is a community much like Reston or Herndon in its demographics. It has fewer FRL than SL.

What is doesn't have is the benefit, if you can call it that, of 50 years of FFX's snob zoning.

> I believe that the SB has calculated that once
> Floris is split, it will be easier to move us over
> to Coppermine, and dilute the mutlifamily homes
> with higher end SF homes.

With the gated TH and other high end units near Coopermine, I doubt that will be a big issue.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: UDA ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:11PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thank you word. It appears that almost all of
> the
> > construction is multi family, which typically
> > includes ADU's in addition to the market rate
> > homes. My concern, is that either Coppermine is
> > going to become another McNair ES with almost
> all
> > homes feeding it either APT, Condo or TH.
> Because
> > of the transient nature of the housing, it
> makes
> > it tough to build a strong base in elementary
> > schools with demographic.
> >
> > I am concerned that the SB will decide that
> "East
> > Floris" will be removed from Floris ES, and
> become
> > part of Coppermine. Any thoughts?
>
> There are 4741 multi-family units in the pipeline
> west of Centerville Road in the McNair Attendance
> area. Most will be garden apts. So expect about
> 336 new high school kids from that area.
>
> The portion east of Centreville will add 2814
> mostly garden units. Expect 200 high school kids
> from that area.
>
> I expect that there will be enough K-6 kids west
> of Centerville Road to fill Coopermine.
>
> Why anyone would talk about moving kids from
> Floris to Coopermine is not immediately clear.
>
> It's just appalling to me that people on this
> forum treat McNair as if it were Watts, Bed Sty or
> Cabrini Green. There are multiple gated TH
> commuities there, folks. Enough with the snobbery
> already.
>
> ADU make up 10% or less of any project, including
> sfd's, with 50 or more units.



Please, take this to your PTSA.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:44PM

UDA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please, take this to your PTSA.

You must be new to this thread, Those harridans have long ago stopped listening to anything I have to say.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:51PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Thomas Moore,
> >
> > I am not putting McNair Farms down in any way.
> I
> > sold many homes in McNair, and Live right
> behind
> > it.
> When you say the "gated community" are you referring to Great Oak? I was not aware that Great Oak was gated, but it does have nice TH and small lot SF homes built by Engle Homes.

> Then you should already know about the gated
> townhouse communities and other high end
> residential in that area.
>
> I do think that it may have been poor planning
> > to put McNair ES in the middle of such a high
> > density area though.
>
I sold many TH in McNair Farms 10-11 years ago, and you are correct. There are very nice TH's built by Laing, Centex, Engle and others. I can alos tell you that many of the apartments were built with special tax incentives, and required to be leased at reduced rents. Again, as I stated earlier, i do not have a problem with mcNair Farms.

> Why? All the units are very nice, recent
> construction.
>
> > It is a fact that apartment
> > rentals by their very nature are transient, and
> > this does create much turn over in McNair ES.
> The
> > mobility rate is much higher at McNair,
> compared
> > to Floris, Oak Hill and Fox Mill.
>
> The mobility rates in the entirety of the Metro DC
> area are higher than the rest of the country. Are
> all of FFX schools therefore suspect to the rest
> of the Country because of this. Isn't mobility
> just a euphemism for "them"?

You seem to be very sensitive to this issue Thomas, and I agree that FX has higher mobility rates that other parts of the country, but McNair is twice as high as its counter-parts

http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13:3740318786005753::NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:335

http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/news/2007/oct/03/one-these-schools-not-others/print/

>
> > The reason that I feel that East Floris may be
> > moved to Coppermine, is because of this quote
> "The
> > school is expected to move its students on to
> > nearby Rachel Carson Middle School who will
> > "probably" then go on to Westfield High School,
> > with a potential for some to move on to South
> Lake
> > High School, according to Chevalier."
> >
> > Based on this quote, and recognizing that
> McNair
> > ES is staying in Westfield, and figuring that
> the
> > SB is not going to ship children from the West
> > side of Centerville Road to South lakes, who do
> > you think Chevalier is referring to?
>
> Chevalier made that statement last August. That's
> 5, count 'em, 5 months ago. That's several life
> times in politics.

Are you seriously saying that things have changed in the last 5 months? Do you really believe that any of the original 4 scenarios was ever going to be submitted to the SB by the Staff?
>
> Do we even know if he was quoted accurately?

I have no reason to believe that he was nat quoted accuratelt.
>
> At that time it looked like new McNair (i.e., east
> of Centerville) was the ES to be reassigned to SL,
> along with Fox Mill. Then the South Lakes
> Boundary Study Group came up with Option 5, in
> large part to avoid McNair. Events have clearly
> overtaken Chevalier's statement.
>
> Either Coopermine or McNair could be assigned to
> HHS later. HHS will still have the room if Option
> 5 is adopted. Because SL will be overenrolled if
> Option 5 is adopted, the SB will not be able to
> send either McNair or Coopermine to SL.
>
> > I am sure that you will agree that based on the
> > types of homes that are either built, or are
> going
> > to be built on the West Side of Centerville
> road,
> > the county is setting up another McNair ES
> > situation. All Multi family, and no SF.If you
> > disagree, please state your reasons.
>
> There is nothing wrong with McNair south of the
> Toll Road. It is a community much like Reston or
> Herndon in its demographics. It has fewer FRL than
> SL.

I I belive you are incorrect on this. According to FCPS site McNair is 39% FRL vs. 33% at SL.

http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:13:42242981637670::NO::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:335
>
> What is doesn't have is the benefit, if you can
> call it that, of 50 years of FFX's snob zoning.

Again, you seem bitter towards owners of SF homes? Not sure what point you are trying to make with this statement.
>
> > I believe that the SB has calculated that once
> > Floris is split, it will be easier to move us
> over
> > to Coppermine, and dilute the mutlifamily homes
> > with higher end SF homes.
>
> With the gated TH and other high end units near
> Coopermine, I doubt that will be a big issue.

Please tell me where there is a gated community near Coppermine. I think Great Oak may have a gate at the entrance, but I did not know that it was functional.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:54PM

I'd guess the county likes the tax to services payment ratio on the multifamily construction...they probably come close to turning a profit at a certain threshold of school age kid density...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: frfux ()
Date: January 14, 2008 01:55PM

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That said, an independent company GMER has developed software that can scan for and remove the rootkit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 02:01PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent,
> If you have an issue with the housing going in for
> Coppermine, contact the Board of Supervisors.
> They are the ones creating Title one schools
> before they even open with their housing
> development policies. FCPS has the tough job of
> cleaning up after them.
>
> Talk about social engineering.

And that issue would be that not enough multi-family housing has been built throughout FFX, especially in places like Great Falls, Clifton, Mason Neck and along Vale Road, for example.

FFX's average population density is one-third of Alexandria's and 30% of Arlington's. Yet it has more jobs than D.C. FFX has pursued a policy of snob zoning for 50 years.

So my employees have to commute from WV and PA and my kids have no hope of living near my wife and I.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 14, 2008 02:21PM

TM,
At last we agree on something! Affordable housing should not be clustered--this causes multiple problems with schools and crime such as we are seeing in FFX county. Also, economic segregation causes hopelessness in those populations that are clustered. This is well documented in the Brookings Institute Report on Affordable Housing that came out in 2007. Google it and you can download the pdf.

Wake up FFX county! Unless you want to continually have to "fix" schools and pockets of economic disparity, you need to change your housing policies!

Of course, nothing will change unless the SB and constituents start complaining to the BOS and holding them accountable for the problems they create.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2008 02:25PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 02:23PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please tell me where there is a gated community
> near Coppermine. I think Great Oak may have a gate
> at the entrance, but I did not know that it was
> functional.

Next to the new lighted 90' baseball field that backs up to 28

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 02:35PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you SL Pyramid Parent. I am shocked
> that there are so many multi-family dwellings
> planned for the area. I read a statistic that says
> that Multi-family adds about 29 children per 100
> units vs. 64 children per 100 SF homes.
>
> http://www.nmhc.org/Content/ServeFile.cfm?FileID=5
> 717

The ratio that FCPS uses to extract proffers from the builders of new housing (so I'm sure that if there is a bias its on the high side) is 7.1 high school kids per 100 garden apts. and 2.8 kids per 100 high rise units. SFD ratio is 15.4 per 100.

> using Thomas Moore's stat of 10% of new housing
> being of the ADU variety, this means an additional
> 470 lower income families feeding into the
> schools, whether they be Floris, McNair or the new
> Coppermine ES Coppermine ES.

Only if you assume that all of the ADUs go to families with children. Which they don't. Many go to singles with disablities, childless couples where one is diabled and the elderly, all three of whom, I believe, have a preference on any waiting list.


Again, I have no
> problem with ADU housing, but many people in
> Reston have made issues about the disparity of
> Lower socio-economic students in the various
> schools.

The issue I've heard from many is that SL bears the burden of serving an unfairly
high proportion of FRM kids, 33% versus Langley 1% and Oakton's 10%.

> I do not have a problem with Multi-family housing,
> as they are needed in high cost areas like the DC
> Metro area.

Could have fooled me.

> What needs to be understood though, is
> that most people do not live in apartments for
> 10-15 years, but maybe a year or 2 since they are
> generally stepping stones until for more permanent
> housing is found. I think that several posters
> from Reston have indicated that the size and
> transient nature of most of the housing stock in
> and around South Lakes is older, and smaller, and
> that most folks move out of Reston when their
> children are old enough to go to high school. When
> you look at all of the new housing in general that
> is planned for both Reston as well as Herndon, it
> is almost entirely Multi-Family. The long term
> prospects for filling up South Lakes seems
> challenging, based on current and future housing.

Given that the average time in an SFD is only 4 years, I have trouble understanding this is even worth the time spent on it already.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 02:48PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Are you seriously saying that things have changed
> in the last 5 months? Do you really believe that
> any of the original 4 scenarios was ever going to
> be submitted to the SB by the Staff?

Obviously things have changed. It's east Floris now instead of east McNair.

> > Do we even know if he was quoted accurately?
>
> I have no reason to believe that he was not quoted accuratelt.

Based on my experience with reporters for the weeklies and the Metro reporters for the Post, it is my working assumption in all cases that the inexperienced dopes got it wrong.

> > Herndon in its demographics. It has fewer FRL than SL.
>
> I belive you are incorrect on this. According to FCPS site McNair is 39% FRL vs. > 33% at SL.

I thought we were talking only about the portion of McNair south of the Toll Road which has an FRL of 28%.

> Again, you seem bitter towards owners of SF homes? Not sure what point you are
> trying to make with this statement.

No emnity against the owners of SFD. My social justice meter gets pinned by advocates of snobbery and pretension in every form and especially those who champion, exploit or excuse snob zoning.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2008 03:05PM by Thomas More.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 14, 2008 02:53PM

Thomas you better take a break.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 02:54PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TM,
> At last we agree on something! Affordable housing
> should not be clustered--this causes multiple
> problems with schools and crime such as we are
> seeing in FFX county. Also, economic segregation
> causes hopelessness in those populations that are
> clustered. This is well documented in the
> Brookings Institute Report on Affordable Housing
> that came out in 2007. Google it and you can
> download the pdf.
>
> Wake up FFX county! Unless you want to continually
> have to "fix" schools and pockets of economic
> disparity, you need to change your housing
> policies!
>
> Of course, nothing will change unless the SB and
> constituents start complaining to the BOS and
> holding them accountable for the problems they
> create.

So when I file the annual plan review nominations to add small lot singles, th and mf to all of those areas during the next Comp. Plan review, you'll be a co-nominator with me, right?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 02:59PM

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas you better take a break.

Because?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 03:03PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
deleted Don't know why it posted twice



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2008 03:05PM by Thomas More.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 03:07PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Obviously things have changed. It's east Floris
> now instead of east McNair.

I do not believe that McNair ES was ever seriously being considered for South Lakes, do you? Do you really believe that any of the 1st 4 alternates were going to be the ultimate plan? I truly believe that this plan to send Fox Mill and part of Floris was baked many months ago, and that the county SB staff has to go through the motions to try and show that the ultimate decision was based on community feedback.
>
> Based on my experience with reporters for the
> weeklies and the Metro reporters for the Post, it
> is my working assumption in all cases that the
> inexperienced dopes got it wrong.

I would guess that there would have be some type of retraction if he was misquoted. I could not find any such retraction. Maybe someone else knows more??

> > > Herndon in its demographics. It has fewer FRL
> than SL.
> >
> > I belive you are incorrect on this. According to
> FCPS site McNair is 39% FRL vs. > 33% at SL.
>
> I thought we were talking only about the portion
> of McNair south of the Toll Road which has an FRL
> of 28%.

No problem, I thought you were referring to McNair Elementary School as a whole.
>
> No emnity against the owners of SFD. My social
> justice meter gets pinned by advocates of snobbery
> and pretension in every form and especially those
> who champion or excuse snob zoning.

I am guessing that you did not understand that my point about the Multi-Family vs. SF homes, is simply that this is a contributor to the high mobility rates that some schools experience. You failed to address the fact that McNair has a much higher mobility rate than other ES in the area. Teachers at McNair have told me that it is much more difficult to teach a class when there is such high turnover of students during the school year.

I am curious though, what your thoughts are on how Coppermine, Floris and McNair will be enrolled,as far as communities and what High Schools you think these schools will feed to.

Using the conservative numbers of students that all of the new housing is going to create,(I think you said around 700) it seems that even after this boundary study, Westfield will be back over the 3000 mark.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 03:32PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not believe that McNair ES was ever seriously
> being considered for South Lakes, do you?

That's what Maria Allen and several others were telling SL parents for many weeks and they were determined not to let that happen.

> Do you really believe that any of the 1st 4 alternates were going to be the
> ultimate plan?

Option 4 was my most heartfelt wish.

> I truly believe that this plan to send Fox Mill and part of Floris was baked
> many months ago,

Positive it happened on and after November 28.

> and that the county SB staff has to go through the motions to
> try and show that the ultimate decision was based
> on community feedback.

That may be true about all the options except Options 3 & 5. Allen and others believed deeply that 2 or 3 were the staffs preferred outcome and were determined to come up with an alternative.

> > Based on my experience with reporters for the
> > weeklies and the Metro reporters for the Post,
> it
> > is my working assumption in all cases that the
> > inexperienced dopes got it wrong.
>
> I would guess that there would have be some type
> of retraction if he was misquoted. I could not
> find any such retraction. Maybe someone else knows
> more??

Only if he bothered. I don't anymore unless I'm being defamed or my quote could be misconstrued as defaming someone else.

> Teachers at McNair have told me that it is much more difficult to teach a class > when there is such high turnover of students during the school year.

Teachers whining. Big surprise. There's always an excuse.

My sister-in-law taught elementary school in a highly transient area for 30 years: Nantucket. It's only a problem if the teacher makes it a problem.

> I am curious though, what your thoughts are on how Coppermine, Floris and McNair > will be enrolled,as far as communities and what High Schools you think
> these schools will feed to.

I really haven't examined the issue of the Coopermine boundary enough to have even a semi-informed opinion. (Putting my helmet on now for the incoming rounds. ;-))

> Using the conservative numbers of students that all of the new housing is going > to create,(I think you said around 700)

It looks like 536 additional high school kids in current McNair boundaries south of Toll Raod, 200 east of Centreville Road, 336 west.

> it seems that even after this boundary study, Westfield will be back over the
> 3000 mark.

Close to it. That's why I expect McNair or Coopermine to get sent to HHS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 14, 2008 03:43PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >>
> > Obviously things have changed. It's east Floris
> > now instead of east McNair.
>
> I do not believe that McNair ES was ever seriously
> being considered for South Lakes, do you? Do you
> really believe that any of the 1st 4 alternates
> were going to be the ultimate plan? I truly
> believe that this plan to send Fox Mill and part
> of Floris was baked many months ago, and that the
> county SB staff has to go through the motions to
> try and show that the ultimate decision was based
> on community feedback.
> >

Exactly--When #5 was hatched, I thought what the heck--where did that come from? Exactly how did FCPS officials get #5 after the first 4 scenarios were submitted? From community feedback or from the SB or from the SL Boundary Study group?? Just curious, in past boundary studies, did FCPS staff submit 4 scenarios, 1, 2 or 3 or even 5 before coming up with a final plan for SB review? It is like ok here are the scenarios and then poof, now here is this ONE scenario. It just didn't add up with #5. Sorry.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SB2 ()
Date: January 14, 2008 04:03PM

Floris Parent Wrote:>

> I am curious though, what your thoughts are on how
> Coppermine, Floris and McNair will be enrolled,as
> far as communities and what High Schools you think
> these schools will feed to.
>
>
The neighborhoods that end up feeding these elementary schools will go to whatever high school is determined through this current high school boundary shift. High schools will not change next year, just the elementary schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 04:10PM

There is quite a bit of irrationality on this site. The process has been eminently reasonable and open. "Likely affected" groups such as Fox Mill had the chance to voice concerns well before the community meetings began, and all persons were given a chance to participate in the community meetings within reason given the numbers. All comments made at those meetings, and those made via e-mail, have been posted verbatim. The community meeting process itself, moreover, was overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in principle. You have had your say, and you will have further opportunities to do so. Not getting your way is not evidence of a broken process, nor is there evidence of some vast conspiracy. The truth is what it is, and the truth can never be determined by a show of hands. Thus, no matter how many postings you make on this site, and no matter how many e-mails you send to the School Board, it will not change the fact that the logic clearly favors redistricting generally, and the proposal currently on the table is the most conservative option available which meets the goals of redistricting. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for stoking discord in the community by appealing to the worse angels of our nature - fear and elitism.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris ()
Date: January 14, 2008 04:19PM

Well, I don't see a strong correspondence b/t op5 and the comments of op1-4. Did you see anywhere the staff explains *how* did they jump from A to B? It's funny that they have to tweak the criterias slightly, so that the fact they are creating a new split feeder will not appear to fail their objective?

You mentioned "The
> community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in
> principle. "
So what happened to their voices in a so democratic, open and fair process?


SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is quite a bit of irrationality on this
> site. The process has been eminently reasonable
> and open. "Likely affected" groups such as Fox
> Mill had the chance to voice concerns well before
> the community meetings began, and all persons were
> given a chance to participate in the community
> meetings within reason given the numbers. All
> comments made at those meetings, and those made
> via e-mail, have been posted verbatim. The
> community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in
> principle. You have had your say, and you will
> have further opportunities to do so. Not getting
> your way is not evidence of a broken process, nor
> is there evidence of some vast conspiracy. The
> truth is what it is, and the truth can never be
> determined by a show of hands. Thus, no matter
> how many postings you make on this site, and no
> matter how many e-mails you send to the School
> Board, it will not change the fact that the logic
> clearly favors redistricting generally, and the
> proposal currently on the table is the most
> conservative option available which meets the
> goals of redistricting. You should all be ashamed
> of yourselves for stoking discord in the community
> by appealing to the worse angels of our nature -
> fear and elitism.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 14, 2008 04:34PM

SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is quite a bit of irrationality on this
> site. The process has been eminently reasonable
> and open. "Likely affected" groups such as Fox
> Mill had the chance to voice concerns well before
> the community meetings began, and all persons were
> given a chance to participate in the community
> meetings within reason given the numbers. All
> comments made at those meetings, and those made
> via e-mail, have been posted verbatim. The
> community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in
> principle. You have had your say, and you will
> have further opportunities to do so. Not getting
> your way is not evidence of a broken process, nor
> is there evidence of some vast conspiracy. The
> truth is what it is, and the truth can never be
> determined by a show of hands. Thus, no matter
> how many postings you make on this site, and no
> matter how many e-mails you send to the School
> Board, it will not change the fact that the logic
> clearly favors redistricting generally, and the
> proposal currently on the table is the most
> conservative option available which meets the
> goals of redistricting. You should all be ashamed
> of yourselves for stoking discord in the community
> by appealing to the worse angels of our nature -
> fear and elitism.


Why do these words, "fear" and "elitism" keep appearing in this thread?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 14, 2008 04:41PM

SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is quite a bit of irrationality on this
> site. The process has been eminently reasonable
> and open. "Likely affected" groups such as Fox
> Mill had the chance to voice concerns well before
> the community meetings began,

Not really. When we contacted SB members, we were told "nothing's been decided yet, wait until the official process..."

The
> community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in
> principle.

If community input opposed redistricting, then how does that make it a fair process to have redistricting occur? Why bother asking for community input if that input is going to be ignored?


You have had your say, and you will
> have further opportunities to do so.

And continue to be ignored?


the logic
> clearly favors redistricting generally, and the
> proposal currently on the table is the most
> conservative option available which meets the
> goals of redistricting.

Why was Westfield expanded? Why is Langley being expanded? Logic doesn't favor redistricting now, not with those two facts. It could have been done earlier, prior to expanding Westfield, or it could be done INSTEAD of expanding Langley.

You should all be ashamed
> of yourselves for stoking discord in the community
> by appealing to the worse angels of our nature -
> fear and elitism.

Oh God, not that charge again. If we have opinions contrary to yours, we MUST be afraid and elitist. Every day I like SL less thanks to perspectives such as yours. A few SL parents have expressed empathy with our feelings about this upheaval, but the majority prefer to call us names and tell us how much we suck. Thanks!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: word ()
Date: January 14, 2008 05:12PM

SLHS Parent - great job winning over the sentiment of Fox Mill and Floris, you idiot. It's not enough that they are being forced into your subpar school, but now they get to listen to you deride them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 05:50PM

SB2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:>
>
> > I am curious though, what your thoughts are on
> how
> > Coppermine, Floris and McNair will be
> enrolled,as
> > far as communities and what High Schools you
> think
> > these schools will feed to.
> >
> >
> The neighborhoods that end up feeding these
> elementary schools will go to whatever high school
> is determined through this current high school
> boundary shift. High schools will not change next
> year, just the elementary schools.

Not necessarily. New elementary schools have sometimes been sent to a different high school than the old elementary schools they were carved out of.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 05:54PM

1) Concerns about changing the status quo and altering expectations are not insignficant.

2) If your concerns are not based on fear and elitism, then great. If your concerns, however, are weak and based more on narrow crass personal interests than on the needs of the community at large, then that is not a valid reason for the school board to accept them. You should consider possibility (likelihood) that if the School Board staff did not readily accept a certain position then it probably means that that position was weak in comparison to the goals of redistricting.

3) Those goals and the logic of redistricting have been pretty clear. The proposal on the table serves those goals in a pretty conservative manner, and the "how" has been explained in public documents. The burden is not on the school system to explain itself ad naseum to people for whom no possible rationale would suffice. A piece of advice - in order for your position to not be "ignored," your position must be persuasive. It is clear that the School Board has not made a final decision yet, so you still have time.

4) It seems obvious to me that Westfield was expanded several years ago, and was a separate decision for that time - not a decision that necessarily should control every future decision. In any event, it has nothing to do with whether SLHS currently underenrolled - the size of the Westfield building is irrelevant to that issue. If Wesfield were 5 times its current size, and had a capacity of 15,000 students, that has nothing to do with SLHS. Nor would it mean that a decision to have such a large building is optimal for its students. What matters are academic and non-academic programs. Westfield can lose a few hundred students and not have their programs affected, and in fact increase opportunities for those students left. On the other hand, South Lakes' receipt of a few hundred students will greatly affect the types of courses that can be offered and the health of its extracurricular programs (e.g., the linebacker on the football team will no longer have to undress at half time to play the tuba in the band during halftime, then suit back up for the second half).

5) Likewise, Langley is a separate issue from SLHS. Moroever, including Langley in the decisionmaking process would have made the process even more unwieldy and would have been somewhat gratuitous because it is so far SLHS - if anything, the Langley students south of route and west of Reston Parkway should go to HHS, but HHS is not the primary focus of the boundary study - SLHS is.

6) "We judge ourselves by our thoughts and intentions. Others judge us by our actions." E Pluribus Unum.


SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is quite a bit of irrationality on this
> site. The process has been eminently reasonable
> and open. "Likely affected" groups such as Fox
> Mill had the chance to voice concerns well before
> the community meetings began,

Not really. When we contacted SB members, we were told "nothing's been decided yet, wait until the official process..."

The
> community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in
> principle.

If community input opposed redistricting, then how does that make it a fair process to have redistricting occur? Why bother asking for community input if that input is going to be ignored?


You have had your say, and you will
> have further opportunities to do so.

And continue to be ignored?


the logic
> clearly favors redistricting generally, and the
> proposal currently on the table is the most
> conservative option available which meets the
> goals of redistricting.

Why was Westfield expanded? Why is Langley being expanded? Logic doesn't favor redistricting now, not with those two facts. It could have been done earlier, prior to expanding Westfield, or it could be done INSTEAD of expanding Langley.

You should all be ashamed
> of yourselves for stoking discord in the community
> by appealing to the worse angels of our nature -
> fear and elitism.

Oh God, not that charge again. If we have opinions contrary to yours, we MUST be afraid and elitist. Every day I like SL less thanks to perspectives such as yours. A few SL parents have expressed empathy with our feelings about this upheaval, but the majority prefer to call us names and tell us how much we suck. Thanks!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 05:56PM

SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is quite a bit of irrationality on this
> site. The process has been eminently reasonable
> and open. "Likely affected" groups such as Fox
> Mill had the chance to voice concerns well before
> the community meetings began, and all persons were
> given a chance to participate in the community
> meetings within reason given the numbers. All
> comments made at those meetings, and those made
> via e-mail, have been posted verbatim. The
> community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in
> principle. You have had your say, and you will
> have further opportunities to do so. Not getting
> your way is not evidence of a broken process, nor
> is there evidence of some vast conspiracy. The
> truth is what it is, and the truth can never be
> determined by a show of hands. Thus, no matter
> how many postings you make on this site, and no
> matter how many e-mails you send to the School
> Board, it will not change the fact that the logic
> clearly favors redistricting generally, and the
> proposal currently on the table is the most
> conservative option available which meets the
> goals of redistricting. You should all be ashamed
> of yourselves for stoking discord in the community
> by appealing to the worse angels of our nature -
> fear and elitism.


That's what we all love to see people being magnanimous in victory. You won. Try binding up the wounds instead of rubbing salt in them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2008 06:00PM by Thomas More.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 06:09PM

There is no victory for me alone, or simply for SLHS - that's not the point. Victory will be for all Fairfax County taxpayers who will know that their elected representatives did the right thing by FCPS students, and discharged their duties according to the highest standards of public trust, and did not merely cow as servants of narrow crass personal - and, yes, often fearful and elitist - interests, no matter how loud or repetitive or numerous.

In any event, the decision has not been made. So you still have time to try to hijack the process if that's what you want to do.


Thomas More Wrote:
That's what we all love to see people being
> magnanimous in victory. You won try binding up
> the wounds instead of rubbing salt in them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SB2 ()
Date: January 14, 2008 06:14PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SB2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Floris Parent Wrote:>
> >
> > > I am curious though, what your thoughts are
> on
> > how
> > > Coppermine, Floris and McNair will be
> > enrolled,as
> > > far as communities and what High Schools you
> > think
> > > these schools will feed to.
> > >
> > >
> > The neighborhoods that end up feeding these
> > elementary schools will go to whatever high
> school
> > is determined through this current high school
> > boundary shift. High schools will not change
> next
> > year, just the elementary schools.
>
> Not necessarily. New elementary schools have
> sometimes been sent to a different high school
> than the old elementary schools they were carved
> out of.


But we are not talking about elementary schools as a whole anymore, thanks to Option 5. I don't suppose if Floris East is sent to McNair the rest of the McNair kids will go to South LAkes, because this is the crowd South Lakes doesn't want, right? The South Lakes PTSA and Stu should know how it will all play out. And besides SOuth Lakes will be too crowded at this point to move another elementary school or part of one, in. It really would make more sense to leave this area alone for now, unless, of course you already have your 2008-09 Coppermine/McNair/Floris plans in your back pocket ... which is probably the case.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: RealityCheck ()
Date: January 14, 2008 06:20PM

SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no victory for me alone, or simply for
> SLHS - that's not the point. Victory will be for
> all Fairfax County taxpayers who will know that
> their elected representatives did the right thing
> by FCPS students,

There you go again, misrepresenting the narrow interests of the few as the broad interests of the many.

> and discharged their duties
> according to the highest standards of public
> trust, and did not merely cow as servants of
> narrow crass personal - and, yes, often fearful
> and elitist - interests, no matter how loud or
> repetitive or numerous.
>

Do you really not see how stupid it is to gratuitously insult the people you need to help you solve your problem?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Old Timer ()
Date: January 14, 2008 06:22PM

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Oh God, not that charge again. If we have opinions
> contrary to yours, we MUST be afraid and elitist.
> Every day I like SL less thanks to perspectives
> such as yours. A few SL parents have expressed
> empathy with our feelings about this upheaval,
> but the majority prefer to call us names and tell
> us how much we suck. Thanks!



Please don't go down this road. You just made a condescending post about volunteering at South Lakes, which I didn't respond to but wanted to so badly. It's ok for you to say negative things, but South Lakes parents must never respond. Is that the case?

There have been recriminations on both sides and if we were all able to look at it objectively, I believe you would see that the majority of SL parents are having to defend the indefensible - a poor redistricting process.

Umpteen posters on this side have made derogatory remarks about-

1) students at SL - Jazzy Jeff, crying cheerleaders, unable to write, druggies, gang members, "ho's"
2)the residents of Reston - stupid to have bought their homes in Reston, didn't do due diligence, "liberals"
3) the teachers and staff at SL - Bruce is good now, but he'll probably leave or from Thomas More - he isn't responsive
4) the PTSA - which are "harridan" according to TM, and colluding with the facilities staff, as if anyone gave a rat's ass what a SL parent really thought
5) parents - the "pimps" who don't know how to volunteer where at Oakton - "we have this process down pat"

We don't even get credit for the good things at the school - when our SAT scores jumped the highest in the county, we're told it is an anamoly. It couldn't be the case.

The first time I saw anyone post something negative about Chantilly, "Chantilly Mom" came blasting back defending her child's school.

How many times have we had to do that? Folks, it gets old and sometimes we get tired and cranky and defensive, can you blame us? WE'RE SORRY - we shouldn't be so thin-skinned.


Regardless of the poor job that was done to "sell" the needs ahead of time, this is the case:

South Lakes has 1400 total students, about 1200 general ed. students, and needs a minimum of 1700 to offer a full compliment of classes.


We don't know why other small schools didn't go first, we don't know why the SB built an addition at Westfield, we don't know why Langley wasn't included, and we don't know why they put "jewelry making" as an elective on the briefing in the first meeting. Stu did not coach us or "collude" with us, no one did. His actions with Christine Arakalien certainly haven't helped our cause much.

A group of us sat down with a map and numbers and tried to figure out the most feasible solution GIVEN THE PARAMETERS OF THE STUDY.

That the alternative was very similar to the one we had developed was quite simply, mind blowing. We were STUNNED that someone listened to us, stunned.

Regardless of whether you don't mind a school with 2600 or 3100 students, with 18 trailers, the simple fact is that South Lakes has 1400 and two schools very nearby have double the students. When our students are not afforded the same opportunities, it is unconscionable.



The End.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: VaDriver ()
Date: January 14, 2008 06:33PM

How many bingo games did you skip to write that one up?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 07:27PM

Oldtimer...thanks for the post. One question tho is:

South Lakes has the same number of teachers, 137, for its 1443 students as Madison does for its 1910 students. (South Lakes also has 11 more teaching assistants). Why is it that South Lakes can't offer the same classes as Madison? Its a given that South Lakes class sizes will be smaller, since on average, all SLHS classes must be smaller given the student / teacher ratios.

Has anybody made any statement about what new classes will be offered, and how it would compare with other schools?

One concern of people at Fox Mill and Floris could be that they are being asked to move to a school that in some cases may not meet their needs as well (e.g. no AP classes), not so much to help improve course availability, but rather to improve the school's statistics in terms of SOL pass rates and SAT score. I do understand that some will like SLHS better because they like the shorter commute or smaller school or other reasons.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 14, 2008 07:39PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oldtimer...thanks for the post. One question tho
> is:
>
> South Lakes has the same number of teachers, 137,
> for its 1443 students as Madison does for its 1910
> students. (South Lakes also has 11 more teaching
> assistants). Why is it that South Lakes can't
> offer the same classes as Madison? Its a given
> that South Lakes class sizes will be smaller,
> since on average, all SLHS classes must be smaller
> given the student / teacher ratios.


Just a guess here but I'm thinking the MMR magnet program accounts for the difference in teaching assistants.


butler told the PTSA that getting to 2100 would mean 17 more teachers.
>
> Has anybody made any statement about what new
> classes will be offered, and how it would compare
> with other schools?

The only hint has been AP HUman Geography, whatever that is.
>
> One concern of people at Fox Mill and Floris could
> be that they are being asked to move to a school
> that in some cases may not meet their needs as
> well (e.g. no AP classes), not so much to help
> improve course availability, but rather to improve
> the school's statistics in terms of SOL pass rates
> and SAT score. I do understand that some will
> like SLHS better because they like the shorter
> commute or smaller school or other reasons.

SL has known that since last fall.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Padre ()
Date: January 14, 2008 07:49PM

Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Oh God, not that charge again. If we have
> opinions
> > contrary to yours, we MUST be afraid and
> elitist.
> > Every day I like SL less thanks to perspectives
> > such as yours. A few SL parents have expressed
> > empathy with our feelings about this upheaval,
> > but the majority prefer to call us names and
> tell
> > us how much we suck. Thanks!
>
>
>
> Please don't go down this road. You just made a
> condescending post about volunteering at South
> Lakes, which I didn't respond to but wanted to so
> badly. It's ok for you to say negative things,
> but South Lakes parents must never respond. Is
> that the case?
>
> There have been recriminations on both sides and
> if we were all able to look at it objectively, I
> believe you would see that the majority of SL
> parents are having to defend the indefensible - a
> poor redistricting process.
>
> Umpteen posters on this side have made derogatory
> remarks about-
>
> 1) students at SL - Jazzy Jeff, crying
> cheerleaders, unable to write, druggies, gang
> members, "ho's"
> 2)the residents of Reston - stupid to have bought
> their homes in Reston, didn't do due diligence,
> "liberals"
> 3) the teachers and staff at SL - Bruce is good
> now, but he'll probably leave or from Thomas More
> - he isn't responsive
> 4) the PTSA - which are "harridan" according to
> TM, and colluding with the facilities staff, as if
> anyone gave a rat's ass what a SL parent really
> thought
> 5) parents - the "pimps" who don't know how to
> volunteer where at Oakton - "we have this process
> down pat"
>
> We don't even get credit for the good things at
> the school - when our SAT scores jumped the
> highest in the county, we're told it is an
> anamoly. It couldn't be the case.
>
> The first time I saw anyone post something
> negative about Chantilly, "Chantilly Mom" came
> blasting back defending her child's school.
>
> How many times have we had to do that? Folks, it
> gets old and sometimes we get tired and cranky and
> defensive, can you blame us? WE'RE SORRY - we
> shouldn't be so thin-skinned.
>
>
> Regardless of the poor job that was done to "sell"
> the needs ahead of time, this is the case:
>
> South Lakes has 1400 total students, about 1200
> general ed. students, and needs a minimum of 1700
> to offer a full compliment of classes.
>
>
> We don't know why other small schools didn't go
> first, we don't know why the SB built an addition
> at Westfield, we don't know why Langley wasn't
> included, and we don't know why they put "jewelry
> making" as an elective on the briefing in the
> first meeting. Stu did not coach us or "collude"
> with us, no one did. His actions with Christine
> Arakalien certainly haven't helped our cause much.
>
>
> A group of us sat down with a map and numbers and
> tried to figure out the most feasible solution
> GIVEN THE PARAMETERS OF THE STUDY.
>
> That the alternative was very similar to the one
> we had developed was quite simply, mind blowing.
> We were STUNNED that someone listened to us,
> stunned.
>
> Regardless of whether you don't mind a school with
> 2600 or 3100 students, with 18 trailers, the
> simple fact is that South Lakes has 1400 and two
> schools very nearby have double the students.
> When our students are not afforded the same
> opportunities, it is unconscionable.
>
>
>
> The End.



BINGO!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: January 14, 2008 08:23PM

Did any one go to the school board work session on facilities and this boundary process today? Did anyone stay for the meeting with the board of supervisors?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 14, 2008 08:30PM

SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is quite a bit of irrationality on this
> site. The process has been eminently reasonable
> and open.

Are we talking about the same Boundary study? This whole process has been anything but reasonable and open. I am amazed that you can even make this statement.

"Likely affected" groups such as Fox
> Mill had the chance to voice concerns well before
> the community meetings began, and all persons were
> given a chance to participate in the community
> meetings within reason given the numbers. All
> comments made at those meetings, and those made
> via e-mail, have been posted verbatim.

As I read through as many of the posting on line, it appears that the majority of the comments seemed to favor option #3, and yet the SB staff suddenly appeared with a new option #5.I am not sure what the purpose of all of the community input was for, if the Staff alreday had the plan that they ultimately chose to submit. I am sure that the last minute tweak regarding Navy to Oakton, was simply done to show the public that they weren't really just using the SL advisory committee's recommended plan.

> community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> advocates, but by those opposing redistricting in
> principle. You have had your say, and you will
> have further opportunities to do so. Not getting
> your way is not evidence of a broken process, nor
> is there evidence of some vast conspiracy.

I seem to recall the Stu Gibson used a similar phase in a recent newspaper article.
The
> truth is what it is, and the truth can never be
> determined by a show of hands. Thus, no matter
> how many postings you make on this site, and no
> matter how many e-mails you send to the School
> Board, it will not change the fact that the logic
> clearly favors redistricting generally, and the
> proposal currently on the table is the most
> conservative option available which meets the
> goals of redistricting.

Again, I find it utterly amazing that you can even make a statement like this. As I have said in prior posts, I can completely understand why you and any other SL parent wants to bring in Fox Mill and Floris children to help prop up your school, as well as the property values for those of you that own your homes.

What I cannot understand is why you feel that families who do not want this change are wrong. Can you honestly not understand others opinions? Is everyone who does not want to attend South Lakes an elitist? Many who live in much closer proximity to South lakes than Floris, choose not to attend South lakes, and they "Live" in Reston. Why is it so surprising that others outside of Reston may also not choose South lakes as the best fit for their childs education?

What is the upside for the Fox Mill and Floris families who are being asked to leave Oakton and Westfield High Schools, which have just been honored with the Governor's Award of Excellence http://www.sungazette.net/articles/2008/01/13/hot_news/brk453.txt to come to South lakes, which offers many disadvantages?

Please skip the shorter commute, and other meaningless advantages, as anyone who was unhappy with the commute, upset because their children couldn't make a sports team etc. could pupil place out, and attend South Lakes, or any other school that they felt was a better fit for their children.

You should all be ashamed
> of yourselves for stoking discord in the community
> by appealing to the worse angels of our nature -
> fear and elitism.

Something else that I don't understand, is why South Lakes parents who were bothered by lack of programs being offered to their children, do not simply pupil place out to another school like everyone else does.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NotSoFast ()
Date: January 14, 2008 08:49PM

Why weren't you at the SB work session today?

So much to learn.

For those of you worried about the redistricting STOP.

For those of you that arent... okay,Stu, Maria, and Liz... you know which way this is going. You will find another path. Stop underestimating your Mr. Butler, he is going to make the change you want. Shame on you for underestimating him.

Pity really. So many kids moving to Flint Hill, O Connell, Madeira, Paul VI, your gain is FCPS loss. What an expensive exposure this has been for FCPS. So many county Supervisors have come to know the dirty laundry of FCPS. This at a time that FCPS needed them so much.

So many flaws in this process so little time, so much law on the books relating to these flaws... the Fcps staff and board will not stand together, the SB legal team is a hired gun. Imagine the discovery phase, what fun will it be when the press publishes the internal emails? Gratefully, the SB paid outsiders to help the opposing counsel.Dont tell them, they havent figured it out yet. Now you have so many angry parents, who have committed tens of thousands to see that this does not happen again without reason.

Did I say budget crisis??

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:03PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLHS Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is quite a bit of irrationality on this
> > site. The process has been eminently
> reasonable
> > and open.
>
> Are we talking about the same Boundary study? This
> whole process has been anything but reasonable and
> open. I am amazed that you can even make this
> statement.
>
> "Likely affected" groups such as Fox
> > Mill had the chance to voice concerns well
> before
> > the community meetings began, and all persons
> were
> > given a chance to participate in the community
> > meetings within reason given the numbers. All
> > comments made at those meetings, and those made
> > via e-mail, have been posted verbatim.
>
> As I read through as many of the posting on line,
> it appears that the majority of the comments
> seemed to favor option #3, and yet the SB staff
> suddenly appeared with a new option #5.I am not
> sure what the purpose of all of the community
> input was for, if the Staff alreday had the plan
> that they ultimately chose to submit. I am sure
> that the last minute tweak regarding Navy to
> Oakton, was simply done to show the public that
> they weren't really just using the SL advisory
> committee's recommended plan.
>
> > community meeting process itself, moreover, was
> > overwhelmingly dominated not by South Lakes
> > advocates, but by those opposing redistricting
> in
> > principle. You have had your say, and you will
> > have further opportunities to do so. Not
> getting
> > your way is not evidence of a broken process,
> nor
> > is there evidence of some vast conspiracy.
>
> I seem to recall the Stu Gibson used a similar
> phase in a recent newspaper article.
> The
> > truth is what it is, and the truth can never be
> > determined by a show of hands. Thus, no matter
> > how many postings you make on this site, and no
> > matter how many e-mails you send to the School
> > Board, it will not change the fact that the
> logic
> > clearly favors redistricting generally, and the
> > proposal currently on the table is the most
> > conservative option available which meets the
> > goals of redistricting.
>
> Again, I find it utterly amazing that you can even
> make a statement like this. As I have said in
> prior posts, I can completely understand why you
> and any other SL parent wants to bring in Fox Mill
> and Floris children to help prop up your school,
> as well as the property values for those of you
> that own your homes.
>
> What I cannot understand is why you feel that
> families who do not want this change are wrong.
> Can you honestly not understand others opinions?
> Is everyone who does not want to attend South
> Lakes an elitist? Many who live in much closer
> proximity to South lakes than Floris, choose not
> to attend South lakes, and they "Live" in Reston.
> Why is it so surprising that others outside of
> Reston may also not choose South lakes as the best
> fit for their childs education?
>
> What is the upside for the Fox Mill and Floris
> families who are being asked to leave Oakton and
> Westfield High Schools, which have just been
> honored with the Governor's Award of Excellence
> http://www.sungazette.net/articles/2008/01/13/hot_
> news/brk453.txt to come to South lakes, which
> offers many disadvantages?
>
> Please skip the shorter commute, and other
> meaningless advantages, as anyone who was unhappy
> with the commute, upset because their children
> couldn't make a sports team etc. could pupil place
> out, and attend South Lakes, or any other school
> that they felt was a better fit for their
> children.
>
> You should all be ashamed
> > of yourselves for stoking discord in the
> community
> > by appealing to the worse angels of our nature
> -
> > fear and elitism.
>
> Something else that I don't understand, is why
> South Lakes parents who were bothered by lack of
> programs being offered to their children, do not
> simply pupil place out to another school like
> everyone else does.


BINGO!

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:09PM

Floris - I can easily see why the South Lakes parents who post here - i.e., the parents of the kids who make it through the full IB diploma, send their kids to South Lakes. The IB program delivers a disproportionate share of school resources, offer a vigorous education, gives its recipients a feeling that they are special (again, with justification, not but elitist, right?) and works for this small minority of parents and kids, who of course are by and large going to be the most vocal on a site (and issue) like the one before us. It has the added bonus of diversity, which although an unproven asset to anyone's education assuages on a consistent basis progressive white guilt. My guess is that this profile is not such a thrilling fit for the bulk of parents used to Oakton, Westfield, etc.

What these SLHS parents also want - not so surprisingly, is to have their cake and eat it too - because a school with relatively small "advantaged"
populations (and remember in today's morally infirm world advantaged means having a home with two parents) is one that will be deemed "on the edge" - and receive - fairly or unfairly, receive a negative reputation. And more students, of course, will help with that problem. I can easily understand this from the perspective of self interest - what I find less understandable is the reluctance by some to recognize that one party' self interest operates in varying degrees to the detriment of others - and to this end, what will persuade matriculants to really come to the school?

And one final comment about elitism. I am elitist as heck about education, and offer absolutely no apologies for it. And nor should any other right thinking parents. People of my generation were acculturated to an economic regime where property rights - that is - the legal right to exclude others from all forms of property - were paramount and to a large degree the accumulation of property rights more or less determined the freedoms that one could enjoy. Well, property rights still matter - and they likely always will - but clearly a new phenomena has emerged - reflected in open source software development, but in other fields such as medicine and business as well - where the real wealth generator is not just the ability to exclude, but the ability to constantly add knowledge to a process and to adapt one's skills quickly and seamlessly. Economic rents, in other words, are becoming more tied to one's intrinsic use of knowledge, and inasmuch as any knowledge based competitive advantage depreciates faster than ever, the value of a rigorous education just cannot be adequately measured. No matter what the field or endeavor, any parent that is not driving home just how darn crucial it is in a knowledge economy to get truly educated is just not serving their offspring well. (I would say most here on this board are doing a very good job in that regard). And the last thing they should be concerned about is being elitist when it comes to education. If the only thing I have to worry about with regard to my kids education is that someone deems me elitist - great - I'll live with that.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:27PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you word. It appears that almost all of the
> construction is multi family, which typically
> includes ADU's in addition to the market rate
> homes. My concern, is that either Coppermine is
> going to become another McNair ES with almost all
> homes feeding it either APT, Condo or TH. Because
> of the transient nature of the housing, it makes
> it tough to build a strong base in elementary
> schools with demographic.
>
> I am concerned that the SB will decide that "East
> Floris" will be removed from Floris ES, and become
> part of Coppermine. Any thoughts?

Given the projections, Floris is going to be redistricted along with McNair. Hutcheson will also be in the mix, most likely getting the McNair islands in Herndon.

If "East Floris" ends up being redistricted from Floris, I think it's more likely to be redistricted to McNair in a domino as Coppermine takes the western part of McNair than "East Floris" ending up as an island for Coppermine.

However, the problem with this split is that the SL "NE Floris" has about 60 kids per grade. That's way too many to redistrict the whole thing to McNair - it takes too many out of Floris. So, a domino is likely to end up splitting NE Floris as well with some staying at Floris, some going to McNair. That means McNair ends up being a split feeder to 3 HSes and Floris ends up with 2, but it's not as if Stu cares.

If Coppermine gets any Floris, it's more likely to be some portion of Floris west of Centreville Rd and north of Floris ES. There's not a lot of people there, but there are some & it doesn't create an island.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:34PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The reason that I feel that East Floris may be
> moved to Coppermine, is because of this quote "The
> school is expected to move its students on to
> nearby Rachel Carson Middle School who will
> "probably" then go on to Westfield High School,
> with a potential for some to move on to South Lake
> High School, according to Chevalier."
>

"Probably" go to Westfield since the official proposal has McNair staying at Westfield, but it's not yet a done deal (officially...). I doubt that we'll get a Coppermine island where "NE Floris" is.

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Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 14, 2008 09:38PM

"You just made a condescending post about volunteering at South Lakes, which I didn't respond to but wanted to so badly. It's ok for you to say negative things, but South Lakes parents must never respond. Is that the case?"

My comment was intended to point out that the volunteering issue (and I was responding to a SL parent who said that the stay-at-home parents and self-employed did most or nearly all of the volunteering at SL) is another reason that we who have experienced Oakton or Westfield prefer to stay there. It may seem like a minor thing, but if SL doesn't have the same infrastructure as the other schools, then either the kids get less or the burden on willing parents is greater. What did I say that was negative about SL? I was just reacting to something negative that a SL parent said about their own school, which is that the same few parents do most of the work.

At my elementary school, Fox Mill, it would probably be fair to say that most of the work is done by 10% of the parents. However, when there are big events or things that take more involvement, 90% of the parents can be counted on to help out in some way. Also, those 10% seem to thrive on being super-involved, which is lucky for the rest of us who are more moderately talented at that stuff. Anyway, at all three schools my kids go to, we're lucky to have many parents who can be counted on, including many parents who work at outside jobs. I'm sorry if that isn't the case at SL right now. If I misunderstood the situation, my mistake.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:40PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent,
> If you have an issue with the housing going in for
> Coppermine, contact the Board of Supervisors.
> They are the ones creating Title one schools
> before they even open with their housing
> development policies. FCPS has the tough job of
> cleaning up after them.
>
> Talk about social engineering.

No kidding. But there is the question of how many people would buy SFs between Centreville and the airport given that they'd have to start at 800K to justify the land costs and would have to be built with extra sound proofing so Dulles doesn't object since they don't want flight limitations due to excessive noise at night?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:53PM

> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

>
> I do think that it may have been poor planning
> > to put McNair ES in the middle of such a high
> > density area though.
>

I don't believe it was planned at all. McNair east of Centreville was all zoned office/commercial. After getting in the roads and the hideous shopping center, the developer got hit hard by the early 90s real estate crash (for the younger set, this isn't the first time... That crash hit both commercial and residential, but commercial much harder.) To semi-bail out the developer, Fairfax got the area rezoned to allow high density residential on most of the land.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: January 14, 2008 09:53PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris - I can easily see why the South Lakes
> parents who post here - i.e., the parents of the
> kids who make it through the full IB diploma, send
> their kids to South Lakes.

Dear, dear Quantum,

You know that you and I are in sync when it comes to many political topics and as an aside, I would love to discuss the current presidential race with you, but I must disagree regarding your above statement. As far as I know, and I think I know pretty well, I am one of the only SL parents posting here with children who have either made it through the IB Diploma program or are currently in the program. Many of the SL posters here have children who are in general ed with some IB classes or no IB classes, or are parents of middle or elementary-aged students. We are not all speaking from an 'elite' perspective. Speaking for parents of South Lakes, if I can presume, we can best be described as egalitarian.

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Historical perspective
Posted by: Insider ()
Date: January 14, 2008 10:06PM

Fairfax County Council of PTA's analysis of how FCPS does boundary changes, recommendations on changes to this process, and comparative analysis with other school systems.

Signed,

Insider

http://www.fccpta.org/positions/pos_facilities_rept.pdf

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