Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was involved in early planning of Option 5,
> which was started after the four
> > other options came out.
>
> So you're one of the few folks who acknowledge
> responsibility for this mess.
>
> Option 5 was hatched on or about November 28 by
> less than 20 members of the "South Lakes Boundary
> Study Group" with the help and active
> participation of Mr. Gibson.
>

Thomas -
Do you know for a fact that Mr. Gibson actively participated in the creation of the Alternative?

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > In a few years, when the McMansions
> > are out of vogue, we will be right in style
> along
> > with you!
>
> But if that is true, won't the SL projections be
> wrong on the low side and Westfield projections
> wrong on the high side? Won't NE Floris, with it's
> dreaded McMansions, get to be kicked out of its
> currently proclaimed permanent home yet again?



No, no, no...didn't you read about the tigers earlier?

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I was involved in early planning of Option 5,
> > which was started after the four
> > > other options came out.
> >
> > So you're one of the few folks who acknowledge
> > responsibility for this mess.
> >
> > Option 5 was hatched on or about November 28 by
> > less than 20 members of the "South Lakes
> Boundary
> > Study Group" with the help and active
> > participation of Mr. Gibson.
> >
>
> Thomas -
> Do you know for a fact that Mr. Gibson actively
> participated in the creation of the Alternative?


Yeah. I was in the meetings and listened as people, including TM, made their points and cases about 1 through 4, and what resulted in #5. I'd be interested if Stu Gibson had some input in creating "The Alternative".

Where's the beef?

Actually, Neen - your tongue in cheek comment querying to the Washington Post as to where the "reduced" number of disadvantaged students will go points to what is all too common in the media - bad reporting. In some cases, it is driven by an ideological bent (which may be the case here), but in many cases, it the fault of reporters who fail to really master the subject. What the post should have said is that the redistricting will reduce the percentage of students identified as disadvantaged. (If anything, the raw number will likely increase slightly with redistricting). But of course, reporting it that way would detract from the meta-narrative that the redistricting is "natural" social engineering solution to which no right minded guilty white liberal should object. By the way, note that I am not saying that the meta-narrative is the "truth", but it is often used to supplant meaningful and tough discussion and debate, and that distortion is all too common in our media outlets.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, Neen - your tongue in cheek comment
> querying to the Washington Post as to where the
> "reduced" number of disadvantaged students will go
> points to what is all too common in the media -
> bad reporting.


Indeed. In EVERY newspaper story of which I've ever had first-hand knowledge (not a ton, but a dozen or so) at LEAST one major fact has been misreported. In every case, it wasn't germane -- in one case, someone I know was convicted of a crime; the paper got her name AND age wrong, which she didn't mind at all -- but it still makes me take any other story with a large grain of NaCl.

Look at the following pdf file found on fcps website. They have shut down Chantilly and Westfield for pupil placements. After excluding Langley, Stu Gibson trapped the Fox Mill and Floris communities and then is shutting down all escape routes. We have been completely out foxed by him.
Attachments:

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, my spouse rides the bus most every day
> with the same SB member, because they happen to
> commute at the same time. Does that mean my
> spouse has undo access, or is just trying make a
> living

I've reviewed my post again and don't see the word "undo" in it. I think you meant "undue."


I wrote "enhanced".

Not only do the two words have different meanings but different connotations and different inferences.

latestStuGibsonMove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at the following pdf file found on fcps
> website. They have shut down Chantilly and
> Westfield for pupil placements. After excluding
> Langley, Stu Gibson trapped the Fox Mill and
> Floris communities and then is shutting down all
> escape routes. We have been completely out foxed
> by him.


Well, I looked at the document on the link, and all I could tell was that it applies to this current school year (2007-2008), and is dated nearly one year ago. I would expect that there will be a comparable document issued soon for next school year. It may be the same bad news or even worse.

Fox Mill Outfoxed? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> latestStuGibsonMove Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Look at the following pdf file found on fcps
> > website. They have shut down Chantilly and
> > Westfield for pupil placements. After
> excluding
> > Langley, Stu Gibson trapped the Fox Mill and
> > Floris communities and then is shutting down
> all
> > escape routes. We have been completely out
> foxed
> > by him.
>
>
> Well, I looked at the document on the link, and
> all I could tell was that it applies to this
> current school year (2007-2008), and is dated
> nearly one year ago. I would expect that there
> will be a comparable document issued soon for next
> school year. It may be the same bad news or even
> worse.


Yeah, with all these outfoxing, the Observer came in today and there was a big bold headline saying "Boundary Plan Excludes HHS" so one high school got away, thanks to #5

Thomas More Wrote:
> I've reviewed my post again and don't see the word
> "undo" in it. I think you meant "undue."
>
>
> I wrote "enhanced".
>
> Not only do the two words have different meanings
> but different connotations and different inferences.

Since we're being picky: You mean implications, not inferences. Others imply, you infer.

Actually, I'd argue that "undue" (though certainly not "undo"!) makes some sense here, in the sense of "exceeding what is appropriate or normal". You wrote of "preferential treatment"; I submit that it's a short step from "preferential" to "inappropriate".

And (to make this a sort-of OT post), one wonders how many of the cohort affected by this redistricting could explain this distinction, whether AP, IB, Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield, or South Lakes...

Signed,
Mr. Language Person

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah. I was in the meetings and listened as
> people, including TM, made their points and cases
> about 1 through 4, and what resulted in #5. I'd
> be interested if Stu Gibson had some input in
> creating "The Alternative".

If you were at that meeting then you, like me, heard multiple references to multiple conversations between Mr. Gibson and persons at that meeting who drafted, and advocated for, Option 5.

Further, if you have access to the Boundary Group message board and review the messages during the relevant time period, you will see references to similar discussions.

taxpayer Wrote:

>
> I didn't hear any one testifying at the CIP public
> hearings asking for a new high school in West
> County. Did they??

There is a West County high school in the CIP in the out years.

latestStuGibsonMove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at the following pdf file found on fcps
> website. They have shut down Chantilly and
> Westfield for pupil placements. After excluding
> Langley, Stu Gibson trapped the Fox Mill and
> Floris communities and then is shutting down all
> escape routes. We have been completely out foxed
> by him.


Hey, nice scoop! I only posted this on the "get the hell out of dodge" thread 8 hours ago and pointed out that it was for the current school year. Of course it never occurred to me to add the inane "Stu mastermind" angle to it.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-

>
> See, e.g., Seinfeld Episode - The Outing -- "Not
> that there's anything wrong with it!".
>
> You folks are quite excellent at the
> innuendo/slime game,,,,and then at departing with
> the "Let's return to loftier planes of
> discourse....SLHS sucks and is a hoodlum school,
> and has SAT scores hundreds of points below its
> neighbors". Not factual, but who cares? It could
> win the struggle.....Why pretend?
>
> Neen used "consensus" in the Castro/Kibaki way ("I
> see no one is opposed to what I say...so I'll say
> it for the next five hours".
>
> She and you -- by association -- follow the
> Malcolm X credo of "By Any Means Necessary."
> Right on with your bad selves.

Sorry Padre, I honestly do not know what you are trying to say.

Mr. Language Person Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since we're being picky: You mean implications,
> not inferences. Others imply, you infer.

No I meant inferences. The speaker implies, the listener infers. Multiple listeners have different understandings of "undue" versus "enhanced." Certainly, multiple speakers could mean different things for each of those words but since there were only one writer using each word, they each could only intend one meaning.

> Actually, I'd argue that "undue" (though certainly
> not "undo"!) makes some sense here, in the sense
> of "exceeding what is appropriate or normal". You
> wrote of "preferential treatment"; I submit that
> it's a short step from "preferential" to
> "inappropriate".

but a necessary step nontheless. Undue connotes wrongdoing on the part of someone. A preferential treatment is often unconscious.
>
> And (to make this a sort-of OT post), one wonders
> how many of the cohort affected by this
> redistricting could explain this distinction,
> whether AP, IB, Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield, or
> South Lakes...

Based on my interviews of college applicants from all over Northern Virginia over the last 23 years, very few, thanks to "whole language."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2008 11:21PM by Thomas More.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLVerity Wrote:
>
> >
> > On the bus? What bus? Just curious what bus a
> > school board member would be riding.
>
> How about a commuter bus. Strange thing to be
> curious about.

You commute? Sorry, I assumed that you didn't work since you are here frequently during the day. I'd forgotten that many people post while on company time.

My apologies.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLHS Padre Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah. I was in the meetings and listened as
> > people, including TM, made their points and
> cases
> > about 1 through 4, and what resulted in #5.
> I'd
> > be interested if Stu Gibson had some input in
> > creating "The Alternative".
>
> If you were at that meeting then you, like me,
> heard multiple references to multiple
> conversations between Mr. Gibson and persons at
> that meeting who drafted, and advocated for,
> Option 5.
>
> Further, if you have access to the Boundary Group
> message board and review the messages during the
> relevant time period, you will see references to
> similar discussions.


The only time I have ever spoken with Stu Gibson or been near him was when he tried to teach me how to deal Blackjack for the All Night Grad Party. I did vote for him, but otherwise.....I'll have to look for him on the commuter bus.

With that, I do recall, at those meetings you reference, people mentioning conversations with Stu Gibson about timing, opportunities for comment, etc., but I certainly do not recall any suggestion or comment indicating that he was active in shaping the exalted #5.

Taking your suggestion, I did go to the Boundary Group message board and review the messages -- I don't think I deleted many, if any at all. And I found no references that support your implication about his helping or otherwise "active(ly)" participating in creating Option #5.

I did find multiple examples of your alter ego repeatedly pressing Option 4 and trying to convince the unconvinced. And I also saw where other participants coming up with their own, apparently independent views. But nothing to support an inference that Stu Gibson was "actively participating" or even indicating that he had some input in the creation and drafting of #5. Sorry.

Maybe he was wearing the same disguise or talking in the same plant as Neen?

Anyone watch the school board meeting tonight? What were the reactions of the board to staff's proposal?

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The only time I have ever spoken with Stu Gibson
> or been near him was when he tried to teach me how
> to deal Blackjack for the All Night Grad Party. I
> did vote for him, but otherwise.....I'll have to
> look for him on the commuter bus.
>
> With that, I do recall, at those meetings you
> reference, people mentioning conversations with
> Stu Gibson about timing, opportunities for
> comment, etc., but I certainly do not recall any
> suggestion or comment indicating that he was
> active in shaping the exalted #5.
>
> Taking your suggestion, I did go to the Boundary
> Group message board and review the messages -- I
> don't think I deleted many, if any at all. And I
> found no references that support your implication
> about his helping or otherwise "active(ly)"
> participating in creating Option #5.
>
> I did find multiple examples of your alter ego
> repeatedly pressing Option 4 and trying to
> convince the unconvinced. And I also saw where
> other participants coming up with their own,
> apparently independent views. But nothing to
> support an inference that Stu Gibson was "actively
> participating" or even indicating that he had some
> input in the creation and drafting of #5. Sorry.
>
> Maybe he was wearing the same disguise or talking
> in the same plant as Neen?

See my earlier post about imply and infer. Who said a wink is as good as a nod?

If I misunderstood the messages and voicemails, I have no doubt I will be corrected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2008 11:43PM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone watch the school board meeting tonight?
> What were the reactions of the board to staff's
> proposal?


Raney and Hone seemed to be clearly against it with the rest more or less listening without creating an more anxiety than already exists. This is going to be interesting as these new SB members try to be change agents and make themselves heard. I really did not follow the election and have no idea what Raney's background is, but he really seems like a piece of work with talk about cost/benefit/risk analysis and suggesting that turning SLHS into a magnet school might improve the demographics without a boundary change. Not sure whether it was Stu Gibson or someone else, but this latter idea was not received well in light of the budget and proposed cuts from Jack Dale.

Raney may or may not be right, but you can really see how he is going to be pissing on all sorts of ideas over the next several years. This is great if it is for a productive end and I respect the need for minority opinions to be heard, but I also expect the board to be collaborative without simply placing a rubber stamp on staff or superintendent recommendations.

IB Math Clarification:
part of the problem is, there are two standard level math courses (IB Math SL) prominent in the US. Math Methods, which is AP Calc AB, and Math Studies, which is pre-calc. HL Math goes BEYOND Calc BC, as the poster with the kid doing math intensive work at college has mentioned, and is ahead of his AP counterparts. You all choose to conveniently ignore that information though.

Thomas More said:
>Pre-IB Government is clearly a less intense coverage of less material than AP >Government. I know of no sophomores attempting the AP Government test at the end of >the Pre-IB course. Do you?

I DO, I DO! I took the AP government test after senior year. Guess when I took government? Sophomore year. If I had been more forward thinking, I would've taken it then, but as it stands, I got college credit for it. I did about 2 hours prep before the AP exam. Many AP tests are jokes.

20th century topics: the alternative is, World History I. Which do you think is more applicable? (WH1, WH2, US Hist, Gov compared to WH2, Gov, Hist of the Americas, 20th century topics) All IB students take the history SOL, and seem to do ok even though their junior year history classes focuses only half the course on the United States, with the other half generally focusing on Latin America.

The IB Diploma is the most challenging pre-university curriculum in the world. You're taking at least 13 IB classes over two years. Most AP kids don't take anywhere near 13 APs. The AP students also don't write nearly as well when they're done.

Political Science + Internship was offered every year I was at SL.

Yea, if you drop the IB history path, then you have to take the other history class that's not IB. It's not rocket science. VA requires 4 years of history.

You will never convince me that IB is a weaker program than AP. Ask anyone who goes to college and has seen the comparison.

EVERYDAY MATH
Thanks for the Everyday Math links a few pages back to. I tutor in Williamsburg and they have taught the kids that lattice multiplication crap and I can't stand it. The kids also do not have their multiplication / division tables memorized at all (grades 3/4/5). It's terrible. I do not understand why this isn't memorized.

Thanks for the coverage of the meeting.

Most of the school board members will not oppose redistricting in other member's districts. It's not their business and they fear other reps messing around in their district. The two new at large members can vote against the redistricting, Janie Strauss can too, and it will still pass with more than the necessary 7 votes.

Make no mistake, staff did not orchestrate this and it is not their proposal. It is Stu's. Without his urging, and his approval, there would be no boundary changes. They would never volunteer to go through this nightmare for them, without a school board member insisting on it.

URFullofit wrote:

"Thomas More: You are so full of shit! Every last word in this last post is 100% falsehoods and garbage. You need psychiatric help. Your credibility as a supporter of Reston-as-a-city, such as it was, has just disappeared for good because you can't be trusted to keep to any facts.

Just as an example, Franklin Farm came out with "Option 5" long before anyone at South Lakes did. "Option 5" was a shortcut term used by South Lakes for a modification of "Option 3," after many, many hours of discussion, and research of numbers from FCPS and other sources, by many people. And you KNOW this. We know you know this. You can try to hide behind your moniker to bamboozle others, but your conscience will know and hopefully haunt you. And you KNOW that the boundary study group members hit the phones and websites for these numbers so they could come up with a good and workable alternative to "Option 3." You denigrate all the work two dozen people did who were keeping all communities in mind. You, yourself, over and over again kept asking "WHY ARE WE KOWTOWING TO HERNDON?? Why do we care about Herndon? Why shouldn't we take Armstrong away, even though they'd have to travel much further than Fox Mill? Why should we worry about dominoing other communities?" If only other posters here KNEW how very little you cared about anything except citifying Reston!

You're not worth any more words!"
___________________________________________________

Wow. URFullofsomething....

But...you're not worth ANY words.

soccerguy: Thanks for that "been there done that" post. Backs up everything I've been saying.

The issue of Everyday Math is very, very interesting. I didn't realize that's what one of my kids was getting in elementary school -- and now I understand why she suffered so much. She -- and I -- hated it! I, too, did not understand why she wasn't made to memorize her tables, so we fought over it at home, where I had a poster and flash cards. Resorted to pure bribery (which worked). The issue she had was that she learned the good old fashioned way -- she understood the concepts and could not get whatever the heck those matrixes were trying to teach. And manipulatives. When studying areas, she had to count the sides (???) of different patterns of boxes, counting little marks up at the intersections. It was too weird for words. She insisted that she HAD to do it this way (3rd grade) b/c the teacher said so. Meetings with the teacher didn't help. What a struggle!

I also could not understand why she was so good at math in first grade, getting gold Math Olympics medals, then acing double-digit multiplication and division in second grade, then totally bombing out in third grade (where they REFUSED to teach anything more than single digit multiplication all year). She lost years of math in school -- all had to be done at home (did not help with parent-kid bonding!) Thank goodness we overcame all that and she's in Algebra in 8th grade now. Acing it, after years of struggle. This does not have to be!

Also, I have long been concerned that GT kids totally skip the "memorization" portion of math (they are so darn smart, right?) Mine suffered because of this and out came those flash cards and accompanying arguments.

Well, I am now totally supportive of dumping this crazy math program!

soccerguy315 Wrote:
> ... The IB Diploma is the most challenging
> pre-university curriculum in the world. You're
> taking at least 13 IB classes over two years.
> Most AP kids don't take anywhere near 13 APs. The
> AP students also don't write nearly as well when
> they're done....

You are at W&M? Congrats - excellent school. And congrats on earning the IB Diploma.
Two short questions, please. How many of your classmates were also IB Full Diploma Grads and how many credits did W&M give you for your IB work?

Thanks, and again congrats on two notable achievements.

Wait, Soccerguy. Before you answer Forum Reader's question, you should know that several pages ago we had a big discussion about why the whole diploma thing is not how you determine the success of a program. Keep this in mind as you reply.

Taking IB courses "freestyle" is more in line with how to determine how well "classmates" do compared with AP -- which is what some people want to know.

There is nothing to compare the diploma to.

Wait, Soccerguy. Before you answer Forum Reader's question, you should know that several pages ago we had a big discussion .....about lots of things....

As a mother of a William & Mary student, I welcome your thoughts. Please speak freely.

soccerguy315 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > Thomas More said:
> > Pre-IB Government is clearly a less intense coverage of less material than AP
> > Government. I know of no sophomores attempting the AP Government
> > test at the end of >the Pre-IB course. Do you?
>
> I DO, I DO! I took the AP government test after
> senior year. Guess when I took government? Sophomore year.

No, you don't. You took it after senior year.

> 20th century topics: the alternative is, World
> History I. Which do you think is more applicable?
> (WH1, WH2, US Hist, Gov compared to WH2, Gov,
> Hist of the Americas, 20th century topics)

I think Virginia high school students need to spend a fair amount of time on Reconstruction, the 1876 election and the retrenchment of Jim Crow, the New Deal and the 1960 civil rights movement, along with any number of other topics specific to the US, which get less extensive coverage in the IB history cycle than the AP cycle.

However, the choice being explored is between AP Government and AP Human Geography. Any thoughts?

> All IB students take the history SOL, and seem to do ok even though their junior > year history classes focuses only half the course on the United States, with the > other half generally focusing on Latin America.

As only a 70% is needed to pass an SOL, i.e., the FCPS equivalent of a D, an IB student passing an SOL on anything is hardly remarkable. But maybe it says more about the lack of rigor of the SOL which would be a joke if it weren't for the perversions to the material caused by "teaching to the test."

> The IB Diploma is the most challenging pre-university curriculum in the world. > You're taking at least 13 IB classes over two years. Most AP kids don't take
> anywhere near 13 APs.

Less than 8% of SL students take the IB diploma path yet it is more expensive and demands more school and teacher resources than AP. IB also has a distortive impact on the SL master schedule and the number of courses available to non-IB diploma students at SL. A greater percentage of kids take AP courses at AP high schools.

Congratulations on your achievement which was obtained through the sacrifice of your classmates' educational opportunities.

> The AP students also don't write nearly as well when they're done.

Thanks to "whole language" few FCPS students write as well as their parents generation.

> Political Science + Internship was offered every year I was at SL.

Since only seniors can take this course, why would you have taken any notice as to whether it was actually offered as against just listed in the catalogue, prior to registering for your senior year? A vigilance seldom seen in underclassmen.

> Yea, if you drop the IB history path, then you have to take the other history
> class that's not IB. It's not rocket science. VA requires 4 years
> of history.

But they have to take freshman history covering issues one would have thought would have been cover in history of the americas thus suggesting a deficiency in that course compared to freshman history.

> You will never convince me that IB is a weaker program than AP. Ask anyone who > goes to college and has seen the comparison.

I have and the vast majority disagree with you. But I'm glad IB has taught you to have an open mind.

> EVERYDAY MATH
> Thanks for the Everyday Math links a few pages back to. I tutor in Williamsburg > and they have taught the kids that lattice multiplication crap and I can't stand > it. The kids also do not have their multiplication / division tables memorized
> at all (grades 3/4/5). It's terrible. I do not understand why this isn't
> memorized.

But we agree on this.

Soccerguy wrote:

EVERYDAY MATH
Thanks for the Everyday Math links a few pages back to. I tutor in Williamsburg and they have taught the kids that lattice multiplication crap and I can't stand it. The kids also do not have their multiplication / division tables memorized at all (grades 3/4/5). It's terrible. I do not understand why this isn't memorized.

______________________________

What year are you in?

Hey, Soccerguy.....

I know you're awake. It's Thursday night. Thursday night is the night everybody gets drunk or high. RIGHT???

In my daughter's dorm .... Tuesday night, is called Topless Night? How nice for the boys....

William & Mary. A great school.

"HIGH-PERFORMING VIRGINIA PUBLIC SCHOOLS"
Only eleven high schools state-wide have earned the Governor’s Award for Educational Excellence, created by the Virginia Board of Education:
* Albemarle County — Western Albemarle High
* Fairfax County — Madison High, Oakton High, Westfield High and Woodson High
* Loudoun County — Broad Run High, Loudoun Valley High, Stone Bridge High
* Roanoke County — Hidden Valley High
* Salem — Salem High
* Virginia Beach — Princess Anne

Excerpts from yesterday's press release: "High Schools Earn Awards for Excellence"

The Virginia Index of Performance (VIP) program awards points to schools and divisions based on the percentage of students achieving at the advanced level on Standards of Learning assessments and progress made toward educational goals.

To qualify for the Governor’s Award for Educational Excellence, high schools must meet all state and federal achievement benchmarks for at least two consecutive years and meet Governor Kaine’s goals for achievement enrollment in college-level courses and attainment of advanced diplomas and career and industry certifications. Schools and school divisions also earn bonus points for other performance measures, including the Governor’s Nutrition and Physical Activity Scorecard.

Schools earning the Governor’s Award for Educational Excellence will each receive a display banner and a signed resolution of commendation from Governor Kaine.

Thomas More Wrote:
> No I meant inferences. The speaker implies, the
> listener infers. Multiple listeners have
> different understandings of "undue" versus
> "enhanced." Certainly, multiple speakers could
> mean different things for each of those words but
> since there were only one writer using each word,
> they each could only intend one meaning.

But what you wrote was, "Not only do the two words have different meanings but different connotations and different inferences." So you were writing of the general case: given that multiple listeners could have different understandings of any given word, either you meant "implications", or it's not clear that you were saying anything with "and different inferences" (not even the literary redundancy that "connotations and implications" would provide).

> but a necessary step nontheless. Undue connotes
> wrongdoing on the part of someone. A preferential
> treatment is often unconscious.

Um, no..."undue" need not indicate wrongdoing, any more than "preferential" does. In the legal context of "undue influence" there is wrongdoing (deliberate or otherwise), but not in everyday usage.

OK, we're well off-topic now...!

> Anyone watch the school board meeting tonight?
> What were the reactions of the board to staff's
> proposal?

Kathy Smith says she FULLY supports getting kids out of Westfield and Chantilly.
She also fully supports getting more kids into SL.

I am sure she will be ammending the RD plan to remove her neighborhood from Chantilly because she so fully supports relieving Chantilly's overcrowding.
Then she can do the right thing in the most heroic way.

If not, then I guess she is selling out the Navy community in Sully to improve her personal situation.

Truthbetold,

I'm glad you decided to teach your daughter math when Everyday Math didn't work. Many other parents have done the same, or else hired others to do it.

For parents with elementary school aged children, Singapore Math can be purchased pretty cheaply, and it's very good. www.singaporemath.com

Some GT Centers make sure that their students learn their math facts, by having them do a series of timed math facts tests. I think we've heard that Forest Edge does this for all its students, not just its GTC students. Do you feel comfortable mentioning Which elementary school your child attended, which apparently didn't do this?

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I, too, did not understand why
> she wasn't made to memorize her tables, so we
> fought over it at home, where I had a poster and
> flash cards. . . . And manipulatives.
> When studying areas, she had to count the sides
> (???) of different patterns of boxes, counting
> little marks up at the intersections.
>
> Also, I have long been concerned that GT kids
> totally skip the "memorization" portion of math
> (they are so darn smart, right?) Mine suffered
> because of this and out came those flash cards and
> accompanying arguments.
>
> Well, I am now totally supportive of dumping this
> crazy math program!

For people who want information on the other schools in Fairfax County that qualified for the other two levels of awards given, see:

http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?newsid=766

South Lakes is in the third category.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "HIGH-PERFORMING VIRGINIA PUBLIC SCHOOLS"
> Only eleven high schools state-wide have earned
> the Governor’s Award for Educational Excellence,
> created by the Virginia Board of Education:
> * Albemarle County — Western Albemarle High
> * Fairfax County — Madison High, Oakton High,
> Westfield High and Woodson High
> * Loudoun County — Broad Run High, Loudoun
> Valley High, Stone Bridge High
> * Roanoke County — Hidden Valley High
> * Salem — Salem High
> * Virginia Beach — Princess Anne
>
> Excerpts from yesterday's press release: "High
> Schools Earn Awards for Excellence"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/11/AR2007011102209.html


With the dire financial situation that the County is facing, I am very concerned about the SB agreeing to 3 years of Grandfathering current HS students. My question is this- All of the data that has been used during the current Boundary study as it relates to current and projected enrollment at the Schools in the study are based on the impact that just rising 9th graders will have on the enrollment numbers.

If the SB decides due to fiscal concerns that it is not practical to provide double buses for the next 3 years, then the enrollments in Oakton, Westfield, Chantilly and South Lakes will be very different.


Could this be a reason to halt the current study, or do you feel that the study can move forward as planned, even though all of the enrollment numbers will be skewed?

Also, does anyone know where to find the estimated cost that the taxpayers have incurred to conduct this study? I assume that all of the cost of this study is not free.

The grandfathering just delays the impact of the redistricting to make it easier to "sell" to the affected communities. If they grandfather fewer students, it achieves the effect of the redistricting sooner, so doesn't particularly "skew" anything...it just makes the benefits and drawbacks happen faster.

I agee, Oakton Parent, but my guess is that many people in the targeted communities gave opinions based in part, on whether they felt that their child would be impacted by the changes. Most folks have assumed that their child would finish the school currently attended. I would expect another even louder uproar, if suddendly the SB says no to Grandfathering.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, does anyone know where to find the estimated
> cost that the taxpayers have incurred to conduct
> this study? I assume that all of the cost of this
> study is not free.

Unless the SB hired outside consultants I don't see what costs there would be if all of the work was done by staff. There would be opportunity costs, of course, but I think that this type of project is part of their day-to-day responsibility.

I am thinking about the costs associated with printings, mailings, keeping the schools open late for the Town Hall meetings, the costs for all of the facilitators, overtime pay for the Staff, law enforcement etc. etc. etc.

In light of the current budget shortfall, I am curious how much will have been spent on this study.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am thinking about the costs associated with
> printings, mailings, keeping the schools open late
> for the Town Hall meetings, the costs for all of
> the facilitators, overtime pay for the Staff, law
> enforcement etc. etc. etc.
>
> In light of the current budget shortfall, I am
> curious how much will have been spent on this
> study.


My community's home association president has asked the FCPS officials for the cost analysis and budget on the boundary study. They (FCPS) refused to provide it. So along with you, I am really curious how much all of this mess would have cost in addition to the 100 million shortfall and many many other costs as you have mentioned.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am thinking about the costs associated with
> printings, mailings, keeping the schools open late
> for the Town Hall meetings, the costs for all of
> the facilitators, overtime pay for the Staff, law
> enforcement etc. etc. etc.

I see your point, but I would have a hard time believing that the costs you mention come to more than $5-10K which was probably already budgeted. Not to make light or treat this as trivial, but in the scheme of things it does not seem out of line with what it would cost for any type of public hearing.

The SB staff are most likely exempt and not subject to overtime, so you are looking at OT for custodians and FCPD officers. Even at an average cost of $50/hour for 100 hours this is $5K. I am only aware of material available on the web...was this also mailed to families in the affected schools? If so, maybe a few thousand there as well.

If costs of conducting boundary changes are something folks want to use to argue they shouldn't be done, then we would never have boundary changes, would we? Imagine what would happen then, with changes in population growth etc. Just imagine.

Now imagine doing a county-wide boundary study. Whew! This thread would already be 1,000 pages long and every board member would by in line for lynching. Imagine the time and manpower to do such a thing from the staff point of view. Imagine DC. Strauss was right. "Difficult" and "Bitter."

Further, it costs WAY more to maintain a modular unit than to put kids in an energy-efficient brick-and-mortar building. And the trailers themselves cost money. And bussing kids 10 miles a day both ways vs. 3.5 miles a day both ways costs money, not to mention the parents' and teen driver trips on top of that. It all adds up.

SapphicHokieMom Wrote:
> The SB staff are most likely exempt and not
> subject to overtime, so you are looking at OT for
> custodians and FCPD officers.

Not disagreeing, just a note: the 'facilitators' in the classrooms are also paid.

I agree, this is another reason why the Langley children in N Reston and Herndon should have been moved to South lakes instead of wasting more money on the addition.

The Wesfield Brick and Mortar has already been completed. Our commute to Wesfield is 7.5 miles, Vs. 5.9 to SL, but we are going against traffic, saving both time and fuel.

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If costs of conducting boundary changes are
> something folks want to use to argue they
> shouldn't be done, then we would never have
> boundary changes, would we? Imagine what would
> happen then, with changes in population growth
> etc. Just imagine.
>
> Now imagine doing a county-wide boundary study.
> Whew! This thread would already be 1,000 pages
> long and every board member would by in line for
> lynching. Imagine the time and manpower to do such
> a thing from the staff point of view. Imagine DC.
> Strauss was right. "Difficult" and "Bitter."
>
> Further, it costs WAY more to maintain a modular
> unit than to put kids in an energy-efficient
> brick-and-mortar building. And the trailers
> themselves cost money. And bussing kids 10 miles a
> day both ways vs. 3.5 miles a day both ways costs
> money, not to mention the parents' and teen driver
> trips on top of that. It all adds up.

If you want to know where FCPS is REALLY wasting money, ask Jack Dale and the School Board just how much they have spent on so-called Strategic Governance for the past couple of years.

A consulting group from Aspen, Colorado put it together for them and fly out to consult with the Board on it. For a document as meaningless and pointless as that one, they have spent some serious denero (upwards of 10M, at least) on this nonsense. And guess what -- they're STILL on retainer! Staff doesn't even know what the document means but we all nod our heads because if we question anything we'll be targeted. Don't you think someone should do a FOIA request on this?

Other waste in the budget -- why do we have so many Assistant Superintendents? Do you realize that many Assistant Superintendents haven't been out to visit any of the schools over which they supposedly exercise oversight in YEARS? They have no idea what is going on in your local school because they have a desk job. Pick up the phone and call your Assistant Superintendent to see when the last time they visited your school -- see for yourself. We also have new positions such as Assistant Superintendent for Community Relations -- why isn't this being eliminated instead of increasing class sizes?

How many of you have been inside FCPS main administrative building? Do you realize we have level after level of posh offices full of employees meandering about and you have absolutely no idea what they are contributing to the education of our children? Go visit the building if you haven't already -- it's more posh than most office buildings you work in, I bet, and certainly much nicer than the trailers where some of your kids are sitting.

Scrutinize the budget carefully -- FCPS is not setting the right priorities for our children.

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If costs of conducting boundary changes are
> something folks want to use to argue they
> shouldn't be done, then we would never have
> boundary changes, would we? Imagine what would
> happen then, with changes in population growth
> etc. Just imagine.
>
> Now imagine doing a county-wide boundary study.
> Whew! This thread would already be 1,000 pages
> long and every board member would by in line for
> lynching. Imagine the time and manpower to do such
> a thing from the staff point of view. Imagine DC.
> Strauss was right. "Difficult" and "Bitter."
>
> Further, it costs WAY more to maintain a modular
> unit than to put kids in an energy-efficient
> brick-and-mortar building. And the trailers
> themselves cost money. And bussing kids 10 miles a
> day both ways vs. 3.5 miles a day both ways costs
> money, not to mention the parents' and teen driver
> trips on top of that. It all adds up.


Well if one thinks a county-wide boundary study is not feasible, then chucks of boundary studies on each section of the county will still produce anti-redistricters and supporters of redistrictings...has there ever been one true honest upfront redistricting in the history of Fairfax County? I have to tell you this is probably the worst boundary study carried out I have ever seen since growing up in Fairfax County. I don't know which is worst, the Marshall redistricting or this one.

I'm afraid that Insider is - unfortunately - making some very good points. There are many central headquarters type expenses (facilities, staff, etc.) that seem to produce few benefits for kids. The new Gatehouse administrative building is worth a visit, especially on the upper floors.

Insider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to know where FCPS is REALLY wasting
> money, ask Jack Dale and the School Board just how
> much they have spent on so-called Strategic
> Governance for the past couple of years.
>
> A consulting group from Aspen, Colorado put it
> together for them and fly out to consult with the
> Board on it. For a document as meaningless and
> pointless as that one, they have spent some
> serious denero (upwards of 10M, at least) on this
> nonsense. And guess what -- they're STILL on
> retainer! Staff doesn't even know what the
> document means but we all nod our heads because if
> we question anything we'll be targeted. Don't you
> think someone should do a FOIA request on this?
>
> Other waste in the budget -- why do we have so
> many Assistant Superintendents? Do you realize
> that many Assistant Superintendents haven't been
> out to visit any of the schools over which they
> supposedly exercise oversight in YEARS? They have
> no idea what is going on in your local school
> because they have a desk job. Pick up the phone
> and call your Assistant Superintendent to see when
> the last time they visited your school -- see for
> yourself. We also have new positions such as
> Assistant Superintendent for Community Relations
> -- why isn't this being eliminated instead of
> increasing class sizes?
>
> How many of you have been inside FCPS main
> administrative building? Do you realize we have
> level after level of posh offices full of
> employees meandering about and you have absolutely
> no idea what they are contributing to the
> education of our children? Go visit the building
> if you haven't already -- it's more posh than most
> office buildings you work in, I bet, and certainly
> much nicer than the trailers where some of your
> kids are sitting.
>
> Scrutinize the budget carefully -- FCPS is not
> setting the right priorities for our children.

Baffled: How about South County? (Anti-RD folks ran off and now are living with highly overcrowded school.)

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled: How about South County? (Anti-RD folks
> ran off and now are living with highly overcrowded
> school.)


Which school?

Insider-

You are a breath of fresh air on this message board where often the same comments are regurgitated to no end.

The Gatehouse Building is a crime-$60 million bucks blown to satisfy the egos of Jack Dale and The nitwits on our SB. While our kids rot in 800 trailers-and we are buying more!!

I hope and pray that all of the boundary victims stay involved with FCPS and their policies. There are a lot of things wrong with our school system. Unfortunnately parents have been fooled into thinking that everything is fine and they have been way too complacent.

I have been trying to get FCPS to release The Minority Drop-Out Report which is scathing-but they are sitting on it, waiting for the crowds to disappear, I am sure.

Baffled Wrote:
> Well if one thinks a county-wide boundary study is
> not feasible, then chucks of boundary studies on
> each section of the county will still produce
> anti-redistricters and supporters of
> redistrictings...has there ever been one true
> honest upfront redistricting in the history of
> Fairfax County?

------------------
Fairfax High School is a unique case because Fairfax City is a separate legal entity. All public middle and high school students who live inside the city limits must attend Fairfax HS. They may not be redistricted out in any scenario, but other "County" students may be (and are) included within the Fairfax boundaries. [Thus students who live across the street from Woodson to the north and west are bused to Fairfax.]

Here is a straw-man, a proposal to start with, using three "fair chunks"?

Using Fairfax City as a center pole we can group the pyramids into thirds. Criteria:
- Each of these "thirds" has a high school capacity between 17,000 and 18,650.
Each is currently between 92% and 97% capacity.
- Each has a school projected to have a lot of excess capacity. (Sep 2012 projections show 750 or more empty seats at South Lakes, Mt Vernon, and Falls Church.)

The "Northwest Third" includes Chantilly, Madison, Marshall, Herndon, Langley, Oakton, South Lakes, and Westfield. My point here is to point out that ALL of these schools should be considered in any redistricting of South Lakes. [Westfield is projected to have 190 empty seats in Sep 2012. It should NOT have any students pulled out - unless your major concern is how competitive it is for Westfield girls to make the Cheer Squad.]

The "Southeast" Third includes Edison, Hayfield, Lake Braddock, Lee, Mount Vernon, South County, West Potomac, and West Springfield. With hundreds of empty seats in adjacent high, middle, and secondary seats projected in this area in Sep 2012, it makes absolutely NO sense to build yet another middle school!

The "Central Third" includes Annandale, Centreville, Jefferson, Fairfax, Falls Church, McLean, Robinson, Stuart, and Woodson. Since the road system was built to facilitate east-west traffic across the county, this grouping makes an odd kind of sense.

These details are not important. What is important is the current boundary change proposal be scrapped.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is a straw-man, a proposal to start with,
> using three "fair chunks"?
>
> Using Fairfax City as a center pole we can group
> the pyramids into thirds. Criteria:
> - Each of these "thirds" has a high school
> capacity between 17,000 and 18,650.
> Each is currently between 92% and 97% capacity.
> - Each has a school projected to have a lot of
> excess capacity. (Sep 2012 projections show 750 or
> more empty seats at South Lakes, Mt Vernon, and
> Falls Church.)
>
> The "Northwest Third" includes Chantilly, Madison,
> Marshall, Herndon, Langley, Oakton, South Lakes,
> and Westfield. My point here is to point out that
> ALL of these schools should be considered in any
> redistricting of South Lakes.
>
> The "Southeast" Third includes Edison, Hayfield,
> Lake Braddock, Lee, Mount Vernon, South County,
> West Potomac, and West Springfield. With hundreds
> of empty seats in adjacent high, middle, and
> secondary seats projected in this area in Sep
> 2012, it makes absolutely NO sense to build yet
> another middle school!
>
> The "Central Third" includes Annandale,
> Centreville, Jefferson, Fairfax, Falls Church,
> McLean, Robinson, Stuart, and Woodson. Since the
> road system was built to facilitate east-west
> traffic across the county, this grouping makes an
> odd kind of sense.
>
> These details are not important. What is important
> is the current boundary change proposal be
> scrapped.

I might accept the NW third as described, but the other two really don't make any logical sense and you really need at least four, maybe five, groupings. Seriously, I cannot picture how you could lump Annandale with Centreville and McLean or take Robinson away from Lake Braddock and West Springfield.

SapphicHokieMom Wrote:
> I might accept the NW third as described, but the
> other two really don't make any logical sense and
> you really need at least four, maybe five,
> groupings. Seriously, I cannot picture how you
> could lump Annandale with Centreville and McLean
> or take Robinson away from Lake Braddock and West
> Springfield.

As I wrote in my last line, "These details [of how you group the schools] are not important." What IS important is (1) the current boundary change proposal be scrapped immediately and (2) it makes absolutely NO sense to build yet another middle school.

{Regarding Lake Braddock specifically. with all its projected excess space in Sep 2012, all by itself it could absorb the overcrowding at South County. That certainly is not the only possibility. South County has other options using excess space to the east.)

Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Insider-
>
> You are a breath of fresh air on this message
> board where often the same comments are
> regurgitated to no end.
>
> The Gatehouse Building is a crime-$60 million
> bucks blown to satisfy the egos of Jack Dale and
> The nitwits on our SB. While our kids rot in 800
> trailers-and we are buying more!!
>
> I hope and pray that all of the boundary victims
> stay involved with FCPS and their policies. There
> are a lot of things wrong with our school system.
> Unfortunnately parents have been fooled into
> thinking that everything is fine and they have
> been way too complacent.
>
> I have been trying to get FCPS to release The
> Minority Drop-Out Report which is scathing-but
> they are sitting on it, waiting for the crowds to
> disappear, I am sure.

Lee Parent:

Thank you for your kind words. Haven't you heard about Dick Bolger, the former head of StopRD? The minute his area is out of consideration for redistricting, he drops everything like a hot potato and moves on. It made many people angry and cynical.

I'd like to think he's unusual, but he's not. For most people who are not being redistricted, as long as their kids are on the honor roll and have nice friends, it's back to business as usual. Never mind that good grades are meaningless when the curriculum is as devoid of real content as is the case in so many of our schools, but nobody ever seems to ask this question and by the time they do, it's too late. Everyone's eyes have been opened to the fundamental reform that needs to occur on this School Board, but the reality is that most people have a high level of inertia and life moves on. The School Board and Jack Dale rely on our inertia to stay comfortable and not rock the boat.

I wish it weren't so, but it is.

Jack Dale is viewed as an overwhelmingly mediocre, visionless bureaucrat by almost all the teachers I know and should be removed.

Insider Wrote:
> ... The
> minute his area is out of consideration for
> redistricting, he drops everything like a hot
> potato and moves on. It made many people angry
> and cynical. ... For
> most people who are not being redistricted, as
> long as their kids are on the honor roll and have
> nice friends, it's back to business as usual.
>
There is at least one poster on this thread who thinks if you are not being directly affected then all this is none of your business. It looks like you, at least, understand why some of us are still here, whether or not our houses are being redistricted.

Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Another Fox Mill Dad (IP Logged)
Date: January 02, 2008 08:51PM


South Lakes Pyramid parent wrote:
---------------------------------------------

>As far as I know, Hughes is not undercapacity, so there are no plans to redistrict there.


Why would Hughes be at or near capacity while SL is well beneath it? Hughes has around 840 students in 7&8th grade which would translate into roughly 1680 students at a 9-12 school. Where do those approx 200 students go?


I wager that most of them drop out of high school.

I honestly would ;ike to see a parental advisory council formed. This school system needs oversight and The PTSAs and County Council of PTAs aren't doing the due diligence and oversight that is required.

Jack Dale adds NO VALUE to our school district. His open defiance of NCLB testing was an embarrasment to our school district and a slap in the face to minorities in our school district.

They are desperate to bury all the ugly statistics involving lousy test scores, achievement gaps and drop out rates and will do whatever they have to to hide the ugliness from us.

I am sick and tired of the lies and the bobblehead SB members who go along with every hairbrained idea that comes from Dale's office.

We need a revolt. Get your pitchforks ready.

Lake Braddock is much closer to the NW South County cachement area as compared to any SC neighborhood and MV.

Anybody who knows this Administration well knows that the thing they hate the most is bad press, especially national press.

I would recommend getting a police permit and protesting with signs outside of the Gatehouse Building. Not on redistricting but sheer incompetence.

It would shake them to the core. Get the larger issues out in the open.

I am resigned to nothing ever happening, however, because people believe the glossy brochures and infomercials that no other school system compares to ours.

Consider this -- if the United States as a whole is at the bottom of the pack for industrialized countries in terms of rigor of its elementary and high school education, how meaningful is being the so-called best in the United States anyway? We're the best of the bottom of the pack, so big deal. We live in a global world with global competition, so this really matters.

Regardless of how good you are, there is room for serious improvement, but fundamentally the School Board just sticks a big pacifier in our mouth and tells us to appreciate what we have and shut up. And we take it!

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
> ...Hughes has around 840 students
> in 7&8th grade which would translate into roughly
> 1680 students at a 9-12 school. Where do those
> approx 200 students go?
> I wager that most of them drop out of high school.

As of 30 Sep 2007 there were 196 GT students in the GT Center, many of whom go to TJ or back to their base high schools.

(How much was the wager?)

No MS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lake Braddock is much closer to the NW South
> County cachement area as compared to any SC
> neighborhood and MV.

I agree, but it would not be "fair" to stuff Lake Braddock to capacity and leave Mount Vernon with 836 empty seats.

(Possibility: Convert Mt Vernon into a secondary school the same size as South County.)

Insider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody who knows this Administration well knows
> that the thing they hate the most is bad press,
> especially national press.
>
> I would recommend getting a police permit and
> protesting with signs outside of the Gatehouse
> Building. Not on redistricting but sheer
> incompetence.
>
> It would shake them to the core. Get the larger
> issues out in the open.
>
> I am resigned to nothing ever happening, however,
> because people believe the glossy brochures and
> infomercials that no other school system compares
> to ours.
>
> Consider this -- if the United States as a whole
> is at the bottom of the pack for industrialized
> countries in terms of rigor of its elementary and
> high school education, how meaningful is being the
> so-called best in the United States anyway? We're
> the best of the bottom of the pack, so big deal.
> We live in a global world with global competition,
> so this really matters.
>
> Regardless of how good you are, there is room for
> serious improvement, but fundamentally the School
> Board just sticks a big pacifier in our mouth and
> tells us to appreciate what we have and shut up.
> And we take it!

While the SB sticks a big pacifier in our mouths to appreciate what we have, many of our kids sit in trailers during the school session while the SB and their bigwigs enjoy their new posh offices? Anybody ok with that? I am not.

Even if all the surplus kids causing the OC at SC were sent to LB, LB would still be undercapacity. LB would not be even close to 100% capacity

No MS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if all the surplus kids causing the OC at SC
> were sent to LB, LB would still be undercapacity.
> LB would not be even close to 100% capacity

Thank you for being concerned about the big picture. You are right at the high school level (LB 502 empty seats and SC only overcrowded by 192), but watch out for the middle schoolers (LB 102 empty seats and SC overcrowded by 124).
[Sep 2012 projections]

Then move the GT Center from LB to Robinson or Irving. They can handle the GT kids and then there is more than enough space for the subdivisions causing the SC OC.

No MS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then move the GT Center from LB to Robinson or
> Irving. They can handle the GT kids and then
> there is more than enough space for the
> subdivisions causing the SC OC.

Not much space at either of those. Sep 2012 Projections:
Irving Capacity 1,100; Population 1,058
Robinson MS Cap 1,275 Pop 1,238

[Will FCPS still have GT Centers at either middle schools or elementary schools in 2012? That is not the direction FCPS seems to be headed.]

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
> ...Hughes has around 840 students
> in 7&8th grade which would translate into roughly
> 1680 students at a 9-12 school. Where do those
> approx 200 students go?
> I wager that most of them drop out of high school.

As of 30 Sep 2007 there were 196 GT students in the GT Center, many of whom go to TJ or back to their base high schools.

(How much was the wager?)


Ah ha. So that is where they go. No high school drop out issues. I was wrong then.

Addendum to my previous post:

I may have made another error ontop of my previous error.

1. Someone asked where do those approximiate two hundred students go from Langston Hughes? I assumed that they must be dropping out in high school at South Lakes.

2. I was informed that there where 167 GT students at Langston Hughes that, apparently, do not transfer over to South Lakes. I responded that I was wrong and South Lakes musn't have a drop out issue.

Now I realize that kids wishing not to transfer to South Lakes doesn't mean that there isn't a drop-out issue at High School.

[However, something maybe wrong because the planners just didn't stick an IB program in a high school right next to GT middle school and wind up with the underenrollment problem. Children from the GT program aren't rolling to the IB program as hoped?]

By the way no one has proved to me that there isn't a drop out problem from students who go from Langston Hughes to South Lakes just because there are 167 GT students.

The underenrollment at South Lakes compared to its peer schools reflects underlying factors --some of which "may be" high school drop out rates.

I would be curious as to what those numbers are.

The numbers are not good, chart below is from the most recent CIP on the fcps web site. If the class did not shrink, would SL have enough students? (51x4=204)

Follow the historical data for the most recent class:
9th - 2004 = 339
10th - 2005 = 320
11th - 2006 = 295
12th - 2007 = 278
Attachments:

my b - make that 61x4 = 244

word,

thanks for your post.

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> word,
>
> thanks for your post.


Word,

Thanks. Is this latest CIP related to the current boundary if redistricting never took place?

Interestin factoid from this web site:

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/schools/0126000517/school.aspx

For much of the 90's, Langley's enrollment was in the 1300's, smaller than South Lakes' is now. I don't recall that resulting in Langley offering an inferior educational experience though.

Anybody familiar with Langley in the 90's cares to comment on this?

Langley's enrollment spiked in the last decade.

Latest CIP does not take redistricting into account in the historical or projected numbers (because it's not a done deal).

Not sure what your point is, look at Oakton and Westfield, and you see similar decline from 9 to 12.

Word's chart is very helpful. However, South Lakes is not unusual in having fewer seniors than 9th graders. Many high schools have similar patterns, which imply that some students drop out of high school. At Oakton HS, for example, the size of the senior class in September is consistently about 30 students smaller than the size of the same class at the beginning of their junior year. Check the FCPS student membership reports for the last 5 years to put together data on this.

Another interesting factoid...

In the first two months of the school year that data is available for now (on the fcps.edu site), enrollment at South Lakes is up 1%, enrollment at Westfield and Herndon is down 1%, and enrollment at Oakton and Chantilly is basically flat.

While that might not seem like much, the forecast change in enrollment due to redistricting at Westfield in 2012 is only 8%.

The point is South Lakes is having a hard time holding on to it's students for 4 years.

Nice try on the Oakton comparison, but once again you are wrong. For the same class we have.

9th 2004 = 564
10th 2005 = 570
11th 2006 = 572
12th 2007 = 542

That's only 4% at Oakton vs 19% at South Lakes
Attachments:

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point is South Lakes is having a hard time
> holding on to it's students for 4 years.

And as we saw earlier, SL is not realizing a high percentage of yield from its elementary schools.

The advocates of Option 5 are using this to justify intentionally overenrolling SL by 100-200 kids. [Hang on to those trailers, Bruce.]

But no one has come up with an empirically sustained explanation for this phenomenon. Lots of speculation but no numbers.

Seems there is now a second phenomenon also in need of explanation.

1) Where do all the elementary kids go from the SL pyramid?

and

2) Where do all the SL freshman go?

Until both phenomenon are understood Neen could be right (God forbid ;-)) and this shortfall in enrollment at SL could be chronic even after redistricting which would be a waste if the cause of each shortfall is not understood and corrected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2008 06:45PM by Thomas More.

The drop out rate at South Lakes is indeed very high, just as it is at Herndon HS and other high schools in Fairfax County with large Hispanic populations. The available data at South Lakes HS and Herndon HS suggest that almost 50% of the Hispanic students do not graduate.

I agree that the county staff and school board should have focused attention and energy on this problem long ago. Hiding the statistics will not make the problem disappear.

omfg cliff notes

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am thinking about the costs associated with
> > printings, mailings, keeping the schools open
> late
> > for the Town Hall meetings, the costs for all
> of
> > the facilitators, overtime pay for the Staff,
> law
> > enforcement etc. etc. etc.
> >
> > In light of the current budget shortfall, I am
> > curious how much will have been spent on this
> > study.
>
>
> My community's home association president has
> asked the FCPS officials for the cost analysis and
> budget on the boundary study. They (FCPS) refused
> to provide it. So along with you, I am really
> curious how much all of this mess would have cost
> in addition to the 100 million shortfall and many
> many other costs as you have mentioned.

How interesting that they don't have to tell us how our money is being spent. Nice work if you can get it. They aren't responsible to anyone, not even those who pay their bills.

Lee Parent,
The MSAOC reported the minority drop out rates to the SB in June, 2007.
Their report should be online. As I recall, 40% of our Hispanic students
drop out before graduating, after enrolling in 9th grade. I think it was 25% of
Black students, 12% of whites and 8% of Asians.

SapphicHokieMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Also, does anyone know where to find the
> estimated
> > cost that the taxpayers have incurred to
> conduct
> > this study? I assume that all of the cost of
> this
> > study is not free.
>
> Unless the SB hired outside consultants I don't
> see what costs there would be if all of the work
> was done by staff. There would be opportunity
> costs, of course, but I think that this type of
> project is part of their day-to-day
> responsibility.

The facilitators were not staff. They were trained facilitators from around the area. Those who were staff had to be paid overtime. All the teachers and principals who were in the halls, directing traffic and passing out agendas and room assignments, had to be paid overtime. Staff are contract workers, they must be paid overtime if they 'volunteer' for these meetings. None of them gave up their evenings out of the goodness of their hearts. Who would? Rent-a-cops were hired and paid. Extra janitorial staff had to be paid overtime. Hundreds of people worked each meeting, for at least 4 hours, nearly all of them at overtime rates. Do the math. Those meetings were anything but free. What a waste, for everyone.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interestin factoid from this web site:
>
> http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/schools/01260005
> 17/school.aspx
>
> For much of the 90's, Langley's enrollment was in
> the 1300's, smaller than South Lakes' is now. I
> don't recall that resulting in Langley offering an
> inferior educational experience though.
>
> Anybody familiar with Langley in the 90's cares to
> comment on this?
>
> Langley's enrollment spiked in the last decade.

In the mid 1990's there was a boundary adjustment that sent a few hundred Herndon students to Langley. That might be the cause of the spike at Langley.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2008 10:06PM by Neen.

>>>>Until both phenomenon are understood Neen could be right (God forbid ;-)) and this shortfall in enrollment at SL could be chronic even after redistricting which would be a waste if the cause of each shortfall is not understood and corrected.<<<<

The shortfall at South Lakes will continue, just as it has at Marshall because:
1. No educational corrections at the low performing schools that feed to it, Dogwood, Terraset, and McNair. Without correcting the poor education the children at those schools receive, they will continue to drop out when they reach high school because they cannot compete.

2. This boundary process has been such a disaster, South Lakes reputation has suffered even more, the result being that the number of students who will enroll as a result will be few. Those few won't be enough to raise the scores significantly. There will continue be a lack of critical mass of high performing students. Parents of those students will continue to not send their children to South Lakes.

3. IB This is HUGE, no matter how much the current students and staff love it, mainstream parents do not. Mainstream parents view it, rightly or wrongly, as the program for the loser schools. A large part of that perception is because FCPS put IB in the low performing schools. Parents want their children to have a mainstream program, like all the good schools have. Sorry folks, but that's how IB is viewed. Perceptions are everything, whether right or not.

4. Staff that continues to not push for the highest academic goals. A terrible example is the recent choice of 'Human Geography' for the first AP course at South Lakes. VERY disappointing and clear message that they 'don't get it', at all.

Unfortunately, it's too late to turn this around. In hindsight we can all see how this could have been avoided, but the right process would have begun at least 3 years ago, if not 5 years, and would have involved all communities within a 5 mile (more or less) around South Lakes. Too late now.

The ONLY hope I can see is to do that now. Start over. This failed process is not going to result in success. It can't. It's a shame that staff and school board botched it so bad. It's terrible for South Lakes and all the communities. But when one realizes that a plan is not working, the answer is never to continue to certain failure.

>
> Here is a straw-man, a proposal to start with,
> using three "fair chunks"?
>
> Using Fairfax City as a center pole we can group
> the pyramids into thirds. Criteria:
> - Each of these "thirds" has a high school
> capacity between 17,000 and 18,650.
> Each is currently between 92% and 97% capacity.
> - Each has a school projected to have a lot of
> excess capacity. (Sep 2012 projections show 750 or
> more empty seats at South Lakes, Mt Vernon, and
> Falls Church.)
>
> The "Northwest Third" includes Chantilly, Madison,
> Marshall, Herndon, Langley, Oakton, South Lakes,
> and Westfield. My point here is to point out that
> ALL of these schools should be considered in any
> redistricting of South Lakes.
>
> The "Southeast" Third includes Edison, Hayfield,
> Lake Braddock, Lee, Mount Vernon, South County,
> West Potomac, and West Springfield. With hundreds
> of empty seats in adjacent high, middle, and
> secondary seats projected in this area in Sep
> 2012, it makes absolutely NO sense to build yet
> another middle school!
>
> The "Central Third" includes Annandale,
> Centreville, Jefferson, Fairfax, Falls Church,
> McLean, Robinson, Stuart, and Woodson. Since the
> road system was built to facilitate east-west
> traffic across the county, this grouping makes an
> odd kind of sense.
>
> These details are not important. What is important
> is the current boundary change proposal be
> scrapped.

Yes. It needs to be scrapped and we need someone, perhaps someone outside of FCPS to look at all of this, or we are destined to repeat what has happened this year, over and over, year after year as they address each under enrolled school in isolation.

>
> Here is a straw-man, a proposal to start with,
> using three "fair chunks"?
>
> Using Fairfax City as a center pole we can group
> the pyramids into thirds. Criteria:
> - Each of these "thirds" has a high school
> capacity between 17,000 and 18,650.
> Each is currently between 92% and 97% capacity.
> - Each has a school projected to have a lot of
> excess capacity. (Sep 2012 projections show 750 or
> more empty seats at South Lakes, Mt Vernon, and
> Falls Church.)
>
> The "Northwest Third" includes Chantilly, Madison,
> Marshall, Herndon, Langley, Oakton, South Lakes,
> and Westfield. My point here is to point out that
> ALL of these schools should be considered in any
> redistricting of South Lakes.
>
> The "Southeast" Third includes Edison, Hayfield,
> Lake Braddock, Lee, Mount Vernon, South County,
> West Potomac, and West Springfield. With hundreds
> of empty seats in adjacent high, middle, and
> secondary seats projected in this area in Sep
> 2012, it makes absolutely NO sense to build yet
> another middle school!
>
> The "Central Third" includes Annandale,
> Centreville, Jefferson, Fairfax, Falls Church,
> McLean, Robinson, Stuart, and Woodson. Since the
> road system was built to facilitate east-west
> traffic across the county, this grouping makes an
> odd kind of sense.
>
> These details are not important. What is important
> is the current boundary change proposal be
> scrapped.

Yes. It needs to be scrapped and we need someone, perhaps someone outside of FCPS to look at all of this, or we are destined to repeat what has happened this year, over and over, year after year as they address each under enrolled school in isolation.

Could it be that South Lakes redistricting was the straw man? Giving FCPS the excuse they need to do ALL the redistricting at the same time? Or am I crediting them with too Machiavellian?

Neen,

Please see comments in all caps below.

Signed,

DisneyWorld

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>Until both phenomenon are understood Neen
> could be right (God forbid ;-)) and this shortfall
> in enrollment at SL could be chronic even after
> redistricting which would be a waste if the cause
> of each shortfall is not understood and
> corrected.<<<<
>
> The shortfall at South Lakes will continue, just
> as it has at Marshall because:

> 1. No educational corrections at the low
> performing schools that feed to it, Dogwood,
> Terraset, and McNair. Without correcting the poor
> education the children at those schools receive,
> they will continue to drop out when they reach
> high school because they cannot compete.

MCNAIR DOESN'T FEED INTO SOUTH LAKES. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. DOGWOOD AND TERRASET SHOULD PERFORM MUCH BETTER THAN THEY DO AND SHAME ON STU GIBSON AND THE SCHOOL BOARD FOR NOT PUSHING THE MATTER.
>
> 2. This boundary process has been such a disaster,
> South Lakes reputation has suffered even more, the
> result being that the number of students who will
> enroll as a result will be few. Those few won't
> be enough to raise the scores significantly.
> There will continue be a lack of critical mass of
> high performing students. Parents of those
> students will continue to not send their children
> to South Lakes.

A. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT TYPE OF SCHOOL BOUNDARY PROCESS YOU WOULD ENVISION WHERE SOUTH LAKES' REPUTATION WOULD SUFFER LESS. CAN YOU THINK OF ONE, ESPECIALLY WHEN INDIVIDUALS ARE DEAD SET AGAINST MOVING AND WILL THROW ANYTHING AT THE WALL THAT WILL STICK? DO YOU THINK IF THE SCHOOL BOARD INCLUDED LANGLEY AND MADISON IN THE NEW AND IMPROVED FAIR PROCESS THAT SOMEHOW THEY WOULD BE LESS SCATHING TO SOUTH LAKES? IN CANDOR, YOU NEED TO THINK THROUGH YOUR ARGUMENTS A BIT MORE CAREFULLY BEFORE THROWING OUT TRUISMS LIKE THIS.

B. IF, AS SET FORTH IN STATEMENT A ABOVE, THE PROCESS WILL NECESSARILY HAVE COMMUNITIES WHICH WILL ATTACK SOUTH LAKES SUCH THAT ITS REPUTATION WILL NECESSARILY SUFFER, SUCH THAT THE CONSEQUENCE YOU SET FORTH ABOVE (I.E. STUDENTS NOT ENROLLING) WOULD FOLLOW REGARDLESS OF HOW THE PROCESS WAS STRUCTURED, AREN'T YOU JUST SAYING THAT NO MATTER HOW REDISTRICTING WAS PURSUED IT WOULDN'T WORK? AND IF THAT'S THE CASE, ARE YOU REALLY A CREDIBLE PERSON TO REFORM THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS SINCE IT APPEARS NO MATTER WHAT, YOU THINK IT WILL FAIL.

C. YOUR ARGUMENT IS A CIRCULAR ONE -- IF YOU'RE GOING TO PURSUE THIS AS A THREAD, YOU NEED TO CREATE A TIGHTER ARGUMENT THAN THIS.

> 3. IB This is HUGE, no matter how much the
> current students and staff love it, mainstream
> parents do not. Mainstream parents view it,
> rightly or wrongly, as the program for the loser
> schools. A large part of that perception is
> because FCPS put IB in the low performing schools.
> Parents want their children to have a mainstream
> program, like all the good schools have. Sorry
> folks, but that's how IB is viewed. Perceptions
> are everything, whether right or not.

PARENTS SHOULD DECIDE WHAT CURRICULUM THEY WANT AT THE SCHOOL.
>
> 4. Staff that continues to not push for the
> highest academic goals. A terrible example is the
> recent choice of 'Human Geography' for the first
> AP course at South Lakes. VERY disappointing and
> clear message that they 'don't get it', at all.

THIS WAS AN OPTION DISCUSSED AT THE SCHOOL, AND STILL UNDER CONSIDERATION. THIS IS NOT A SET IN STONE.
>
> Unfortunately, it's too late to turn this around. ON WHAT BASIS? THIS APPEARS TO BE ANOTHER SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY.
> In hindsight we can all see how this could have
> been avoided, but the right process would have
> begun at least 3 years ago, if not 5 years, and
> would have involved all communities within a 5
> mile (more or less) around South Lakes. THIS IS UNREALISTIC. REDISTRICTING PROCESSES SHOULD BE FOCUSED AND SHORT IN DURATION. THIS CAUSES SERIOUS UPSET TO PEOPLE'S LIVES. ACTUALLY, WHAT SHOULD'VE TAKEN 1-2 YEARS IS THE SCHOOL BOARD REFORMING THE WAY IT COLLECTS AND ANALYZES DATA SO THAT IT COULD BE PREPARED TO HANDLE THIS TYPE OF REDISTRICTING PROCESS, AS WELL AS HAVING SCHOOL BOARD TAKE THE LEAD IN INTERACTING WITH COMMUNITIES INSTEAD OF HIDING BEHIND STAFF. BUT WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A BOARD FULL OF POLITICANS? GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT. UNTIL WE GET MORE PARENTS ON THE SCHOOL BOARD, DON'T EXPECT DIFFERENT RESULTS. Too late
> now.
>
> The ONLY hope I can see is to do that now. WHAT HOPE DO YOU HOLD FOR ANYONE? YOUR UNDERLYING PREMISE ON REDISTRICTING, AS CRITICALLY EXAMINED ABOVE, DOOM ANY REDISTRICTING SCENARIO, CORRECT? ARE LANGLEY AND MADISON GOING TO BE LESS CRITICAL OF SOUTH LAKES SO THAT ITS REPUTATION WILL SUFFER LESS SO THAT PEOPLE WILL WANT TO GO THIS TIME, ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY THINK THE SCHOOL BOARD HAS BEEN FAIR TO INCLUDE THEM? REALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS NON-SOUTH LAKES COMMUNITIES SHOULD HAVE HOPE TO CONDEMN THE ENTIRE PROCESS AND SOUTH LAKES COMMUNITY SHOULD HAVE ITS HOPES DASHED IN EVER GETTING A FAIR HEARING, RIGHT? AND BY THE WAY, THE SOUTH LAKES PTA IS SO BAD AND EVIL THAT THE ENTIRE SOUTH LAKES COMMUNITY HAD IT COMING TO THEM, RIGHT? YOU DO REALIZE THERE IS A LARGE SOUTH LAKES COMMUNITY OUTSIDE OF THE PTA THAT WILL SUFFER, NO, IN ADDITION TO PUNISHING THE PTA FOR WHAT YOU SEE AS THEIR MANY MISSTEPS? EVEN IF EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT THE SOUTH LAKES PTA IS TRUE -- SHOULD CHILDREN SUFFER AS A RESULT? Start
> over. This failed process is not going to result
> in success. It can't. It's a shame that staff
> and school board botched it so bad. It's terrible
> for South Lakes and all the communities. But when
> one realizes that a plan is not working, the
> answer is never to continue to certain failure. MORE RHETORIC AND CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS.

Insider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to know where FCPS is REALLY wasting
> money, ask Jack Dale and the School Board just how
> much they have spent on so-called Strategic
> Governance for the past couple of years.
>
> A consulting group from Aspen, Colorado put it
> together for them and fly out to consult with the
> Board on it. For a document as meaningless and
> pointless as that one, they have spent some
> serious denero (upwards of 10M, at least) on this
> nonsense. And guess what -- they're STILL on
> retainer! Staff doesn't even know what the
> document means but we all nod our heads because if
> we question anything we'll be targeted. Don't you
> think someone should do a FOIA request on this?
>
> Other waste in the budget -- why do we have so
> many Assistant Superintendents? Do you realize
> that many Assistant Superintendents haven't been
> out to visit any of the schools over which they
> supposedly exercise oversight in YEARS? They have
> no idea what is going on in your local school
> because they have a desk job. Pick up the phone
> and call your Assistant Superintendent to see when
> the last time they visited your school -- see for
> yourself. We also have new positions such as
> Assistant Superintendent for Community Relations
> -- why isn't this being eliminated instead of
> increasing class sizes?
>
> How many of you have been inside FCPS main
> administrative building? Do you realize we have
> level after level of posh offices full of
> employees meandering about and you have absolutely
> no idea what they are contributing to the
> education of our children? Go visit the building
> if you haven't already -- it's more posh than most
> office buildings you work in, I bet, and certainly
> much nicer than the trailers where some of your
> kids are sitting.
>
> Scrutinize the budget carefully -- FCPS is not
> setting the right priorities for our children.

Strategic Governance has cost us millions and NO ONE can explain it. It does pass the buck, without stopping anywhere. NO ONE seems to be responsible for anything. Their goals are silly and can't be measured.

The Emperor is Wearing No Clothes and everyone is afraid to say so.

DisneyWorld,
When you stop screaming, I'd be happy to engage in debate on any of your points, preferably one at a time.

Thanks.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DisneyWorld,
> When you stop screaming, I'd be happy to engage in
> debate on any of your points, preferably one at a
> time.
>
> Thanks.

Good idea because I could not tell when he(she) would stop "screaming".

Thank you Disney World for screaming at Neen. She and her pessimistic world-views needed a good spanking.

Neen,

I am sorry you refuse to see the logical fallacies in your own argument. I was hoping you could correct them. You usually make valid points, but it doesn't mean your weaker ones should remain unchallenged. If you think there is a logical fallacy in what I have stated, please explain.

Nevertheless, an ad hominem attack will suffice for you, I am sure.

Signed,

DisneyWorld

Neen does not seem to understand that the parents redistricted to South Lakes will have input into the curriculum. They will have the power, not the evil SL PTSA. I'll bet that Neen squawked a bunch at TJ and also at Madison to drive the curriculum for her children. I'll bet she wielded her power for all it was worth. Now she wants make parents redistricted to South Lakes think that they will have to turn into nanny-statist lemmings, because the evil SL PTSA will not share any marbles and they will have to just shut up and take what they are spoon fed.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The facilitators were not staff. They were
> trained facilitators from around the area. Those
> who were staff had to be paid overtime. All the
> teachers and principals who were in the halls,
> directing traffic and passing out agendas and room
> assignments, had to be paid overtime. Staff are
> contract workers, they must be paid overtime if
> they 'volunteer' for these meetings. None of them
> gave up their evenings out of the goodness of
> their hearts. Who would? Rent-a-cops were hired
> and paid. Extra janitorial staff had to be paid
> overtime. Hundreds of people worked each
> meeting, for at least 4 hours, nearly all of them
> at overtime rates. Do the math. Those meetings
> were anything but free. What a waste, for
> everyone.

I, too, would like to know what the cost were for these meetings, but I think that you are blowing this way out of proportion trying to imply that ten of thousands were spent.

FCPS non-teaching staff are by and large full-time exempt employees who are not subject to FLSA or eligible for overtime. My partner, a HS teacher, does not receive overtime for events like Back to School Night. Teachers and principals may be on a 190, 193, 210 or 240 day contract, but they don't get paid overtime for working at the boundary study meetings. FCPS probably asked for volunteers and staff stepped forward to help the process.

I don't know about the facilitators, but I stil contend that 6 custodians at $30/hour only comes to $720 for four hours and 5 police officers (if it was that many) at $60/hour only comes to $1200. There is a budget for this type of thing whether you agree with the process or not. Boundary studies happen...accept it and move on.

Why is it so hard, by the way for you to believe that people gave up time "out of the goodness of their hearts"? Do you ever volunteer for anything, or do you expect to be compensated when you work at a PTA bake sale or band tag day?

My facilitators both at Oakton and Westfield said they were volunteers.

SapphicHokieMom Wrote:
> I don't know about the facilitators

I do. They're paid. Honest.

(I'm not sure the total $$$ is that significant, either, but I'm sure on this one tiny point.)

Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My facilitators both at Oakton and Westfield said
> they were volunteers.

OK, *perhaps* some were. But there's "volunteer" and then there's "unpaid volunteer". Given the hostile environment that anyone sane would know the facilitators were going into, they might have meant "I wasn't forced to do this", rather than "I'm not getting paid for it". All I know is that I know of at least one facilitator who was paid (retired FCPS staffer).