Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen does not seem to understand that the parents
> redistricted to South Lakes will have input into
> the curriculum. They will have the power, not the
> evil SL PTSA. I'll bet that Neen squawked a bunch
> at TJ and also at Madison to drive the curriculum
> for her children. I'll bet she wielded her power
> for all it was worth. Now she wants make parents
> redistricted to South Lakes think that they will
> have to turn into nanny-statist lemmings, because
> the evil SL PTSA will not share any marbles and
> they will have to just shut up and take what they
> are spoon fed.

For 7 years the parents of SL tried to get rid of a completely dysfunctional principal to no avail. Only when he was threatened with the withholding of the Democratic Party endorsement did Gibson finally take action to save SL.

Many parents (but not the SLPTSA leadership or the South Lakes Boundary Study Group) have questioned the efficacy and suitablility of IB for the bulk of the SL student body as compared to AP, i.e. that AP is a better fit for more kids at South Lakes.

Yet those groups, Butler, Goodman and Gibson refuse to consider an open and honest exploration of that question. Anyone wishing to examine this question is ridiculed, derided and ostracized by SLPTSA leadership and the South Lakes Boundary Study.

Butler is not perfect. There have been at least a dozen problems that have been documented on these pages that he has caused or refused to addressed. Yet again anyone wishing to examine these questions is ridiculed, derided and ostracized by the same people.

Repeatedly on these pages Butler and SL promoters have been asked to described in detail what he has done to improve the school other than not being Railly. There have been less than 4 responses to that solicitation but repeated vague and generalized assertions that things were better.

Given this tract record, how can any assurance of participation in shaping the future of SL made to incoming parents be heard as anything more than an empty promise at best and a cruel hoax at worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2008 12:47AM by Thomas More.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> For 7 years the parents of SL tried to get rid of
> a completely dysfunctional principal to no avail.
> Only when he was threatened with the withholding
> of the Democratic Party endorsement did Gibson
> finally take action to save SL.

Your time line is faulty. Stuart Gibson was re-elected in the fall of 2003. Bruce Butler was hired June 2005. His first year served was 2005/2006. His second year served was 2006/2007. He is now on his third year. So they withheld the endorsement how? It looks like his re-election was not tied to the departure of Rodriguez at all.
>
> Many parents (but not the SLPTSA leadership or the
> South Lakes Boundary Study Group) have questioned
> the efficacy and suitablility of IB for the bulk
> of the SL student body as compared to AP, i.e.
> that AP is a better fit for more kids at South
> Lakes.

You are one of the only parents I have heard questioning the efficacy of IB. If you have others that agree with you, please organize and present your findings. The South Lakes Boundary Group has spoken repeatedly about the merits of adding AP classes to supplement IB.

Anyone wishing to examine this
> question is ridiculed, derided and ostracized by
> SLPTSA leadership and the South Lakes Boundary
> Study.

In what way? I have never heard anyone in the leadership ridicule and deride anyone. I have heard you, though.
>
> Butler is not perfect. There have been at least a
> dozen problems that have been documented on these
> pages that he has caused or refused to addressed.

No principal is perfect, and Bruce is no exception, yet as far as I can tell, you are the only person providing information about problems that Bruce Butler has refused to correct. Until I am convinced that these are not just isolated sour grapes of yours, I will not put any credence in what you say.

> Yet again anyone wishing to examine these
> questions is ridiculed, derided and ostracized by
> the same people.

Yet again, anyone is really just you.
>
> Repeatedly on these pages Butler and SL promoters
> have been asked to described in detail what he has
> done to improve the school other than not being
> Railly. There have been less than 4 responses to
> that solicitation but repeated vague and
> generalized assertions that things were better.

Let's talk about measurable improvements: How's largest gain in the County on SAT scores for improvement? How about gains on SOL scores? How about a 35% jump in the challenge index score, which translates to more IB exams taken?

Let's talk about ones less easily measured but still discernible: increased parent participation, increased attendance at PTSA meetings, increased participation in athletics (e.g., wrestling, lacrosse, volleyball, football), increased school spirit, increased staff satisfaction.

> Given this tract record, how can any assurance of
> participation in shaping the future of SL made to
> incoming parents be heard as anything more than an
> empty promise at best and a cruel hoax at worse.

Perhaps your inability to participate effectively in the process has made you bitter. You have not gained traction for any of your numerous complaints per the usual channels, and have taken last refuge here, where you provide fodder for those least desirous of helping South Lakes.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point is South Lakes is having a hard time
> holding on to it's students for 4 years.
>
> Nice try on the Oakton comparison, but once again
> you are wrong. For the same class we have.
>
> 9th 2004 = 564
> 10th 2005 = 570
> 11th 2006 = 572
> 12th 2007 = 542
>
> That's only 4% at Oakton vs 19% at South Lakes


Most schools will also have a lower headcount for their senior class due to a number of students who graduate early.

>>Jack Dale is viewed as an overwhelmingly mediocre, visionless bureaucrat by almost all the teachers I know and should be removed.<<<

Teachers never like any superintendent, but he's not out to please them. He's pleasing the school board. He works for them, not the teachers or people in this county.

If the schools continue to go down, the SB will look for someone to blame and fire Dr. Dale. That's why most Superintendents don't last more than 3 years, in any school district. Liberals run education. Their policies fail, scores decline, and they must blame someone. Until the liberals have succeeded in eliminating SOLs and NCLB, the evidence of their failures, the pattern of firing the superintendent will continue, across the country.

>>>Most schools will also have a lower headcount for their senior class due to a number of students who graduate early.<<<

Graduate early? I've never known a student in FCPS who did that, although I am sure there must be some. Most kids look forward to senior year and are not anxious to leave their school or their friends. And most parents aren't ready to send their 16 year away to college. Do you have any evidence of more than one or two students leaving a high school because of early graduation?

The numbers generally change from 9th grade to 12th grade because of dropouts.

Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen does not seem to understand that the parents
> redistricted to South Lakes will have input into
> the curriculum. They will have the power, not the
> evil SL PTSA. I'll bet that Neen squawked a bunch
> at TJ and also at Madison to drive the curriculum
> for her children. I'll bet she wielded her power
> for all it was worth. Now she wants make parents
> redistricted to South Lakes think that they will
> have to turn into nanny-statist lemmings, because
> the evil SL PTSA will not share any marbles and
> they will have to just shut up and take what they
> are spoon fed.

Why would they suddenly have input now when no parents have ever been on the curriculum committee at South Lakes?

And, no, I have never been on any curriculum committee. Never had a need for concern about the curriculum. There were courses and classes that Madison couldn't always offer because not enough kids signed up for them. But that happens at every school.

Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > For 7 years the parents of SL tried to get rid
> of
> > a completely dysfunctional principal to no
> avail.
> > Only when he was threatened with the
> withholding
> > of the Democratic Party endorsement did Gibson
> > finally take action to save SL.
>
> Your time line is faulty. Stuart Gibson was
> re-elected in the fall of 2003. Bruce Butler was
> hired June 2005. His first year served was
> 2005/2006. His second year served was 2006/2007.
> He is now on his third year. So they withheld the
> endorsement how? It looks like his re-election
> was not tied to the departure of Rodriguez at
> all.

The decision to get rid of Railly was made quite a while before Bruce was selected and just about the time of the 2003 election or shortly thereafter. It took a while to create a job to promote her to so that the firing wasn't actionable.

> > Many parents (but not the SLPTSA leadership or
> the
> > South Lakes Boundary Study Group) have
> questioned
> > the efficacy and suitablility of IB for the
> bulk
> > of the SL student body as compared to AP, i.e.
> > that AP is a better fit for more kids at South
> > Lakes.
>
> You are one of the only parents I have heard
> questioning the efficacy of IB. If you have
> others that agree with you, please organize and
> present your findings. The South Lakes Boundary
> Group has spoken repeatedly about the merits of
> adding AP classes to supplement IB.

Then you are not talking or listening to the parents of SL who aren't on the SLPTSA or the South Lakes Boundary Study Group. Your reaction is exactly the kind of treatment that anyone who doesn't drink the kool aid is subjected to. Classic group think. "The critic is wrong." "The critic is alone"

If I'm alone and wrong, why are you afraid to have an open and honest debate of the efficacy of IB versus AP followed by a plebiscite of the parents of the SL pyramid elementary schools who would be effected by any decision.

I've made that suggestion multiple times on this forum and not one IB advocate has accepted that challenge.

If IB is the best choice, I would be out voted in droves and have every reason to drop the topic.

IB was imposed on SL and not a choice by the SL community.

Retracing the step to get the buy in from community would provide legitimacy for IB.

Rather than engage in that debate you attack, ridicule deride and ostracize the critic.


> Anyone wishing to examine this
> > question is ridiculed, derided and ostracized
> by
> > SLPTSA leadership and the South Lakes Boundary
> > Study.
>
> In what way? I have never heard anyone in the
> leadership ridicule and deride anyone. I have
> heard you, though.

Did you read Ms Cosling's post requiring participants in her Yahoo group to promise not to criticize IB as a condition of participation. That is ostracism.
> >
> > Butler is not perfect. There have been at least
> a
> > dozen problems that have been documented on
> these
> > pages that he has caused or refused to
> addressed.
>
> No principal is perfect, and Bruce is no
> exception, yet as far as I can tell, you are the
> only person providing information about problems
> that Bruce Butler has refused to correct. Until I
> am convinced that these are not just isolated sour
> grapes of yours, I will not put any credence in
> what you say.

The issues raised came from multiple families some of whom moved out of the SL attendance area because of their dissatisfaction with Bruce's actions and thus contributed to the underenrollment at SL. They're all wrong and just isolated sour grapes. Once again you attack the messengers and not the substance of the complaints.

> > Yet again anyone wishing to examine these
> > questions is ridiculed, derided and ostracized
> by
> > the same people.
>
> Yet again, anyone is really just you.

You're wrong. But again attack the messenger not the problem.

> > Repeatedly on these pages Butler and SL
> promoters
> > have been asked to described in detail what he
> has
> > done to improve the school other than not being
> > Railly. There have been less than 4 responses
> to
> > that solicitation but repeated vague and
> > generalized assertions that things were better.
>
> Let's talk about measurable improvements: How's
> largest gain in the County on SAT scores for
> improvement? How about gains on SOL scores? How
> about a 35% jump in the challenge index score,
> which translates to more IB exams taken?

If you've read any of the prior posts, you'd know that the College Board will tell anyone that aggregating SAT scores for schools is not scientifically valid since the SAT is designed only to forecast the relative success of high school seniors during their first year of college. Many college admission folks, including the entire California university system, have concluded that the SAT have failed in this predictive function and are now just a surrogate for socio-economic status of the students family with little predictive value for success during college freshman year.

The challenge index is no more valid than the US News and World Reports ranking of colleges. The challenge idex is Jay Matthews parlor game that he hopes to market into another book.

Since, as you point out, Bruce has only been there for two full years and the SATs and challenge test were taken by students whose first two years were under Railly wouldn't you agree that she should get at least partial credit for the improvement?

> Let's talk about ones less easily measured but
> still discernible: increased parent
> participation, increased attendance at PTSA
> meetings, increased participation in athletics
> (e.g., wrestling, lacrosse, volleyball, football),
> increased school spirit, increased staff
> satisfaction.

Increased parent participation is measurable. Verify. but this is a surrogate for Bruce not being Railly.

Increase participation at PTSA meetings is also measurable. Verify. My observations is contrary to this assertion.

Increased participation in athletics is also quantifiable. Verify.

Increased school spirit. This is a perfect example of the vague generalities we've read before. I go to many school events and do not see a significant change in the kids support for each other. In fact their support for each other during the Reign of Terror was one of the most inspiring demonstrations I ever seen short of Marshall after the plane crash or VTEch after the shooting.

> > Given this tract record, how can any assurance
> of
> > participation in shaping the future of SL made
> to
> > incoming parents be heard as anything more than
> an
> > empty promise at best and a cruel hoax at
> worse.
>
> Perhaps your inability to participate effectively
> in the process has made you bitter. You have not
> gained traction for any of your numerous
> complaints per the usual channels, and have taken
> last refuge here, where you provide fodder for
> those least desirous of helping South Lakes.

Again, attack the messenger. But that's the whole point, if persistent attempts to address SL problems by a father of 4 SL students over 11 years is ineffective what hope can the redistricted families have of being listened to.

Your response has proven my point better than I could have hoped for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2008 02:51AM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Most schools will also have a lower headcount
> for their senior class due to a number of students
> who graduate early.<<<
>
> Graduate early? I've never known a student in
> FCPS who did that, although I am sure there must
> be some. Most kids look forward to senior year
> and are not anxious to leave their school or their
> friends. And most parents aren't ready to send
> their 16 year away to college. Do you have any
> evidence of more than one or two students leaving
> a high school because of early graduation?
>
> The numbers generally change from 9th grade to
> 12th grade because of dropouts.


I can think of six people off the top of my head that I personally knew who graduated early. I only needed three classes for graduation my senior year. Had I only needed two, I would have gone to summer school and skipped my senior year, too. Most finished their last class or two in summer school after junior year, and one went to Bryant Adult Ed to finish early. One joined the Army, one slacked off to watch tv and smoke pot all day for about six months before going to NOVA (who is actually incredibly successful today), one went to VCU, one went to Mason or Tech (I don't remember which) one went directly to NOVA, and another went to work. I'm confident there were many more.

You're right -- most people DO look forward to their senior year, prom, and all the festivities that go along with being a senior. Then there are the others. Generally you will find early grads are not super thrilled about the entire high school experience and just want to be done with it. Graduating early is a lot better than dropping out and getting their GED (or not).

That being said, I am not in any way trying to discredit your comment about dropouts. I was simply stating that some of those numbers are not dropouts and occur at every school.

I just finished listening to the mp3 file on the BoardDocs website for the January 10 school board meeting. It's worth a listen if you didn't see the meeting. Here are a few sound bites that I thought were interesting:

The staff (Tistadt?) gave a preamble defending the scope of the study and why South Lakes was different from other small high schools. He said that Marshall and Falls Church HS need to preserve their space (and Marshall may need to expand) to accommodate growth in the Tysons Corner area.

The only thing I heard Jane Strauss ask was why the staff wanted to move the Madison Island to Sunrise Valley ES, when this would overcrowd the school (staff's answer was that it was closer to the island than Wolftrap ES). At the very end of the meeting, she said that the last time the county did a county-wide redistricting, it was bitter and very very difficult.

Stu Gibson talked about the Madison Island and asked the staff to report on every administrative boundary change that had been made to move areas into Hughes/South Lakes from the Madison pyramid in the past (at least, that's what I think he was asking for). Regarding crowding of Sunrise Valley, he said that Terraset ES is seriously underenrolled, and made cryptic comments to the effect that he thought the obvious solution was to redistrict kids to Terraset, except that it would create a new attendance island. He asked the staff to talk about that at the upcoming school board work session.

Tina Hone spoke in support of the Madison Islanders, questioned why a moratorium wasn't an option, and said she was "troubled by the study". James Raney seconded her thoughts, saying that they should consider delaying a year or two to rethink the scope and criteria of the study to make sure they get it right. He also added the comment that a magnet school would act as a "carrot" to encourage people to come to South Lakes, as opposed to the "stick" of a boundary change.

Kathy Smith said she "firmly" believed that Westfield and Chantilly need to shrink and agreed with Stu that South Lakes needs to grow, but said she had issues with the staff proposal and would ask about other ways to do this. She mentioned concerns with sending kids to schools that were farther away, so she may have Navy in mind.

Stu then spoke to rebut everything that Hone and Raney said. When he was done, Tina Hone spoke up to say that as an at-large member, she gets to see the inconsistencies in the reasoning applied in different studies, and that just because she supports the goals of the study doesn't mean that she can overlook "procedural justice matters."

Like I said, this is just what I thought was interesting. The whole thing is at: http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d62d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/7154bde74574e5d68525732b0063c3aa/$FILE/6.01%20Attendance%20Area%20Adjustment.MP3

Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > For 7 years the parents of SL tried to get rid
> of
> > a completely dysfunctional principal to no
> avail.
> > Only when he was threatened with the
> withholding
> > of the Democratic Party endorsement did Gibson
> > finally take action to save SL.
>
> Your time line is faulty. Stuart Gibson was
> re-elected in the fall of 2003. Bruce Butler was
> hired June 2005. His first year served was
> 2005/2006. His second year served was 2006/2007.
> He is now on his third year. So they withheld the
> endorsement how? It looks like his re-election
> was not tied to the departure of Rodriguez at
> all.
> >
> > Many parents (but not the SLPTSA leadership or
> the
> > South Lakes Boundary Study Group) have
> questioned
> > the efficacy and suitablility of IB for the
> bulk
> > of the SL student body as compared to AP, i.e.
> > that AP is a better fit for more kids at South
> > Lakes.
>
> You are one of the only parents I have heard
> questioning the efficacy of IB. If you have
> others that agree with you, please organize and
> present your findings. The South Lakes Boundary
> Group has spoken repeatedly about the merits of
> adding AP classes to supplement IB.
>
>Then, Sorceror, can you please tell us how the "Human Geography" as an AP class can supplement any of the IB courses? Also you mentioned there is a South Lakes Boundary Group so it is really true they came up with #5 in secret to surprise many many of us. I did not hear any of the XXXXXX Boundary Groups in other schools affected by the boundary study. Anyone?

22180 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just finished listening to the mp3 file on the
> BoardDocs website for the January 10 school board
> meeting. It's worth a listen if you didn't see
> the meeting. Here are a few sound bites that I
> thought were interesting:
>
> The staff (Tistadt?) gave a preamble defending the
> scope of the study and why South Lakes was
> different from other small high schools. He said
> that Marshall and Falls Church HS need to preserve
> their space (and Marshall may need to expand) to
> accommodate growth in the Tysons Corner area.
>
> The only thing I heard Jane Strauss ask was why
> the staff wanted to move the Madison Island to
> Sunrise Valley ES, when this would overcrowd the
> school (staff's answer was that it was closer to
> the island than Wolftrap ES). At the very end of
> the meeting, she said that the last time the
> county did a county-wide redistricting, it was
> bitter and very very difficult.
>
> Stu Gibson talked about the Madison Island and
> asked the staff to report on every administrative
> boundary change that had been made to move areas
> into Hughes/South Lakes from the Madison pyramid
> in the past (at least, that's what I think he was
> asking for). Regarding crowding of Sunrise
> Valley, he said that Terraset ES is seriously
> underenrolled, and made cryptic comments to the
> effect that he thought the obvious solution was to
> redistrict kids to Terraset, except that it would
> create a new attendance island. He asked the
> staff to talk about that at the upcoming school
> board work session.
>
> Tina Hone spoke in support of the Madison
> Islanders, questioned why a moratorium wasn't an
> option, and said she was "troubled by the study".
> James Raney seconded her thoughts, saying that
> they should consider delaying a year or two to
> rethink the scope and criteria of the study to
> make sure they get it right. He also added the
> comment that a magnet school would act as a
> "carrot" to encourage people to come to South
> Lakes, as opposed to the "stick" of a boundary
> change.
>
> Kathy Smith said she "firmly" believed that
> Westfield and Chantilly need to shrink and agreed
> with Stu that South Lakes needs to grow, but said
> she had issues with the staff proposal and would
> ask about other ways to do this. She mentioned
> concerns with sending kids to schools that were
> farther away, so she may have Navy in mind.
>
> Stu then spoke to rebut everything that Hone and
> Raney said. When he was done, Tina Hone spoke up
> to say that as an at-large member, she gets to see
> the inconsistencies in the reasoning applied in
> different studies, and that just because she
> supports the goals of the study doesn't mean that
> she can overlook "procedural justice matters."
>
> Like I said, this is just what I thought was
> interesting. The whole thing is at:
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d6
> 2d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/7154bde74574e5d6852
> 5732b0063c3aa/$FILE/6.01%20Attendance%20Area%20Adj
> ustment.MP3

I read a lot of maps since watching that dialogue. Strauss said the purpose of that county wide was closing schools and there was a citizens committee. Many residences would saty where they are in a county wide but Strauss would have big problems with her Langley feed so of course she would Poo Poo such an endeavor. She had no appointee on the enrollment task force.
The proposed CIp has no suggested boundary change for Spring hill even though a nice dominoe [reverse colvin run including the astronauts would be in order].

I guess Hone has not yet found Strauss' Colvin Run langley development that could [should ?] be at forest edge. Hone has apparently discovered that many of the Madison island students live in the Beulah area not near reston. Guess people also discovered much of Floris and a portion of fox mill are unavoidable for a coppermine process. Brickner and thompson were republicans and therefore blown off but these 2 are Democrats.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Then, Sorceror, can you please tell us how the
> "Human Geography" as an AP class can supplement
> any of the IB courses? Also you mentioned there
> is a South Lakes Boundary Group so it is really
> true they came up with #5 in secret to surprise
> many many of us. I did not hear any of the XXXXXX
> Boundary Groups in other schools affected by the
> boundary study. Anyone?

A slight modification of Baffled's post, remembering that I do not support Option 5 but rather Option 4.

Option 5 was developed in semi-secret i.e., anyone participating in a meeting at SL on 11/28 would have heard about Option 5 as would anyone allowed to participate in Ms. Cosling's yahoo group for the South Lakes Boundary Study Group.

There were obviously meetings, e-mails, telephone conversations etc, to which only a dozen or two folks were privy.

"Neen does not seem to understand that the parents redistricted to South Lakes will have input into the curriculum."

If my child starts there this fall, what impact will I have and when? If the current SL parents haven't been able to get rid of IB, why will a few new parents fare any better? If the majority of the vocal SL parents like IB, then we have no chance at all.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >Then, Sorceror, can you please tell us how the
> > "Human Geography" as an AP class can supplement
> > any of the IB courses? Also you mentioned
> there
> > is a South Lakes Boundary Group so it is really
> > true they came up with #5 in secret to surprise
> > many many of us. I did not hear any of the
> XXXXXX
> > Boundary Groups in other schools affected by
> the
> > boundary study. Anyone?
>
> A slight modification of Baffled's post,
> remembering that I do not support Option 5 but
> rather Option 4.
>
> Option 5 was developed in semi-secret i.e., anyone
> participating in a meeting at SL on 11/28 would
> have heard about Option 5 as would anyone allowed
> to participate in Ms. Cosling's yahoo group for
> the South Lakes Boundary Study Group.
>
> There were obviously meetings, e-mails, telephone
> conversations etc, to which only a dozen or two
> folks were privy.

it's clear SL boundary group was operating under the given that Armstrong and Aldrin could not be moved - not even 1 of them- see tha talking point spread sheet comments. What would I do now in this budget? Move only areas that would not be impacted by coppermine and ignore politics. It is totally irresponsible to not consider those allignmnets when hughes and SL's are across a parking lot. Therefore move Aldrin plus a smaller portion of the Madison Island - not the section by Beulah rd.

Move 100% of middle school Japanese Immersion to Hughes. If the program is really important students will attend. Fox Mill - move the part east of the Parkway plus a very small portion of Crossfield and a very small portion of Floris. That leaves a cushion for South Lakes and a concise efficient boundary that if neighborhoods wish to negotiate might result in a trade for better start times for less grandfathering.

Since much of this process was driven by a static Herndon HS and other limitations not publicized or possibly failing federal litmus tests IMHO all other decisons are best left for another process.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Old Timer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think a lot of this is school/principal
> driven.
> > Thank god for Frank Bensinger, Forest Edge
> > Principal.
>
> Having a principal you like is great and I envy
> you. I liked Mrs. Bradley when she was at
> Terraset and Ms. Jackson at Hughes.
>
> I'm curious though about Forest Edge's low tests
> results compared to other schools in FFX with
> similar demographics.
>
> What does Bensinger say about that and what is he
> doing to help kids who are falling behind?

I made a mistake and need to post a correction.

It's Lake Anne, Dogwood and Terraset that are underpreforming compared to other FCPS elementary schools with similar demographics.

Forest Edge is performing well with demographics that present a challenge. Congratulations to Mr Bensinger.

Hopefully Ms Curry and the principals at Lake Ann and Dogwood are talking to him and the other principals of schools with solid performance and challenging demographics so that their success can be brought to all of Reston's elementary schools

Taxpayer,
Please define boundary and quantity of a small portion of Floris and small portion of Crossfield.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Old Timer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I think a lot of this is school/principal
> > driven.
> > > Thank god for Frank Bensinger, Forest Edge
> > > Principal.
> >
> > Having a principal you like is great and I envy
> > you. I liked Mrs. Bradley when she was at
> > Terraset and Ms. Jackson at Hughes.
> >
> > I'm curious though about Forest Edge's low
> tests
> > results compared to other schools in FFX with
> > similar demographics.
> >
> > What does Bensinger say about that and what is
> he
> > doing to help kids who are falling behind?
>
> I made a mistake and need to post a correction.
>
> It's Lake Anne, Dogwood and Terraset that are
> underpreforming compared to other FCPS elementary
> schools with similar demographics.
>
> Forest Edge is performing well with demographics
> that present a challenge. Congratulations to Mr
> Bensinger.
>
> Hopefully Ms Curry and the principals at Lake Ann
> and Dogwood are talking to him and the other
> principals of schools with solid performance and
> challenging demographics so that their success can
> be brought to all of Reston's elementary schools


Yes, quoting you and supporting your quote, all Reston school kids go to Reston's high school-South Lakes.
They should.

22180 Wrote:

Thank you for your summary.

> ... staff ... said
> that Marshall and Falls Church HS need to preserve
> their space (and Marshall may need to expand) to
> accommodate growth in the Tysons Corner area.

Falls Church has a capacity of 2,000 and an enrollment of 1,309.

To the Reston experts - Is the high school aged population within the current South Lakes boundaries (regardless of where they attend school) expected to grown, shrink, or remain the same?

> The only thing I heard Jane Strauss ask was why
> the staff wanted to move the Madison Island to
> Sunrise Valley ES, when this would overcrowd the
> school (staff's answer was that it was closer to
> the island than Wolftrap ES). At the very end of
> the meeting, she said that the last time the
> county did a county-wide redistricting, it was
> bitter and very very difficult.

We are back to "No changes will be considered for anyone withing my Dranesville boundaries."

> Kathy Smith said she "firmly" believed that
> Westfield and Chantilly need to shrink ...

Then why didn't she stop the Westfield addition? Is she planning to remove the Chantilly modular and reduce its capacity from 2625 to 2200? Is she planning to make Westfield a secondary school? Any such changes will lead to ANOTHER boundary change so THIS one need to be stopped NOW.

Thomas More Wrote:
> I made a mistake and need to post a correction.

Thank you. Discussion would be much easier (both on this thread and in the real world) if we all admitted and corrected whatever misstatements we inevitably make, and as quickly as possible.

Lake Braddock was built in 1971 with "open classrooms." It was immediately apparent that the concept was a failure. Did they admit it? No, of course not. Seven years later they built South Lakes with the same open classroom concept, and decades of students and staff had to live with the result.

The School Board and staff should admit and correct their mistakes so we can move on. The latest CIP indicates Westfield will have almost 200 empty seats by Sep 2012. It makes no sense to pull some of their students out.

However, to the east, Madison and McLean are both projected to be overcrowded, and Langley and Marshall are both projected to be close to capacity. Logically if additional students are to be redistricted into South Lakes then they should come form the east and north, not south and west.

FME Mom Wrote:
> ... I am not in any way trying to
> discredit your comment about dropouts. I was
> simply stating that some of those numbers are not
> dropouts and occur at every school.

The below numbers show the FOUR year decrease in a particular graduating class (e.g., “Class of 2007”) from September of their freshman year to June of their senior year for the last four years. All data are from the “Membership” numbers posted on the FCPS website.

As others have mentioned, there are many reasons behind these numbers and leaving before graduation is not necessarily “bad.” However, some may find it significant that, for whatever reason, about eighteen percent of Herndon and South Lakes freshmen probably won’t be there to graduate, while at the other high schools in the current boundary discussion that number is closer to five percent.

It should also be noted that in the Class of 2007 the loss rate at Oakton and South Lakes were almost the same, Chantilly was very low, and Herndon very high.

(I am simply posting the data, not trying to explain them.)



Chantilly / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 639 / 637 / 0.31%
Class of 2006 / 605 / 576 / 4.79%
Class of 2005 / 599 / 569 / 5.01%
Class of 2004 / 554 / 494 / 10.83%
4-year total / 2397 / 2276 / 5.05%

Herndon / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 569 / 441 / 22.50%
Class of 2006 / 572 / 473 / 17.31%
Class of 2005 / 579 / 470 / 18.83%
Class of 2004 / 567 / 487 / 14.11%
4-year total / 2287 / 1871 / 18.19%

Langley / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 463 / 436 / 5.83%
Class of 2006 / 460 / 432 / 6.09%
Class of 2005 / 467 / 459 / 1.71%
Class of 2004 / 439 / 424 / 3.42%
4-year total / 1829 / 1751 / 4.26%

Madison / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 458 / 441 / 3.71%
Class of 2006 / 410 / 388 / 5.37%
Class of 2005 / 420 / 380 / 9.52%
Class of 2004 / 347 / 324 / 6.63%
4-year total / 1635 / 1533 / 6.24%

Oakton / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 555 / 490 / 11.71%
Class of 2006 / 520 / 498 / 4.23%
Class of 2005 / 524 / 504 / 3.82%
Class of 2004 / 481 / 492 / -2.29%
4-year total / 2080 / 1984 / 4.62%

South Lakes / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 349 / 308 / 11.75%
Class of 2006 / 369 / 300 / 18.70%
Class of 2005 / 358 / 291 / 18.72%
Class of 2004 / 416 / 334 / 19.71%
4-year total / 1492 / 1233 / 17.36%

Westfield / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 713 / 679 / 4.77%
Class of 2006 / 700 / 654 / 6.57%
Class of 2005 / 667 / 622 / 6.75%
Class of 2004 / 639 / 598 / 6.42%
4-year total / 2719 / 2553 / 6.11%

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 22180 Wrote:
>
> Thank you for your summary.
>
> > ... staff ... said
> > that Marshall and Falls Church HS need to
> preserve
> > their space (and Marshall may need to expand)
> to
> > accommodate growth in the Tysons Corner area.
>
> Falls Church has a capacity of 2,000 and an
> enrollment of 1,309.
>
> To the Reston experts - Is the high school aged
> population within the current South Lakes
> boundaries (regardless of where they attend
> school) expected to grown, shrink, or remain the
> same?
>
> > The only thing I heard Jane Strauss ask was why
> > the staff wanted to move the Madison Island to
> > Sunrise Valley ES, when this would overcrowd
> the
> > school (staff's answer was that it was closer
> to
> > the island than Wolftrap ES). At the very end
> of
> > the meeting, she said that the last time the
> > county did a county-wide redistricting, it was
> > bitter and very very difficult.
>
> We are back to "No changes will be considered for
> anyone withing my Dranesville boundaries."
>
> > Kathy Smith said she "firmly" believed that
> > Westfield and Chantilly need to shrink ...
>
> Then why didn't she stop the Westfield addition?
> Is she planning to remove the Chantilly modular
> and reduce its capacity from 2625 to 2200? Is she
> planning to make Westfield a secondary school? Any
> such changes will lead to ANOTHER boundary change
> so THIS one need to be stopped NOW.

Strauss won't send anyone else to Herndon or to South Lakes. Are her Dranesville constituents all willing to pay for what has become Langley? Let's ask the family living on 60k annually at Hutchison. Is everyone in Hunter Mill willing to pay for Aldrin at herndon and north herndon at Langley?

The way I see it now based on what Smith said we built that addition to hold kids until South Lakes was done, Strauss blocks a county wide for operational efficiency because of Langley, Gibson is actually not the major villain, etc. That's why I'd only move Aldrin plus a part of Fox mill and part of the Madison Island. Some would also chnage for middle school for 2008-09 [Aldrin and the portion of Island]. Crossfield would move in the portion above and excluding Myterry bounded by Lawyer's and Fox mill Rd. need more numbers on the Floris but would only move areas more oriented to Fox Mill Rd or would not be in a boundary process with Mcnair and would only even consider them as a last resort.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To the Reston experts - Is the high school aged
> population within the current South Lakes
> boundaries (regardless of where they attend
> school) expected to grown, shrink, or remain the
> same?

4251 new dwelling units are in the pipeline right now and more can be anticipated after Metro comes.

HOWEVER, these are mostly garden (ga) and high rise (hr) multi-family dwelling units which have very low rates of high school student generation particularly when compared to single family dwellings (sfd). Base on the high school student generation rates used by FCPS to extract proffers from the builders of these ga and hr units, 120-301 high school kids will be coming to SL from new housing over the next 2-3 years.

There isn't much sfd dirt left in Reston. There is a new sfd subdivision in the Madison Island which has 154 sfd and projects to generate 24 high school kids.

Also see the earlier posts about the low yield of elementary kids to SL. Haven't seen an explanation supported by numbers, just a lot of idle speculation.

Until that phenomenon is understood and reversed, I expect the high school pop from existing Reston homes will continue to fall as Reston couples age in place, after their one or two kids have left for college (Reston's couples were disproportionately adherents of ZPG compared to the rest of the County), rather than turning over empty nest homes to young families.

Reston's existing sfds are smaller than the new houses built in Loudoun and further west and north and thus not as attractive to younger families. The existing sfds have also appreciated to prices that put them beyond the reach of most young families especially in a mortgage market with much tighter underwriting standards. Even modest, starter townhouses reached prices in excess of $400,000 by 2005. No doubt those prices have fallen off but even at $350,000 a family needs an income of $140,000 to think about buying one of those TH, never mind an sfd.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > To the Reston experts - Is the high school aged
> > population within the current South Lakes
> > boundaries (regardless of where they attend
> > school) expected to grown, shrink, or remain
> the
> > same?
>
> 4251 new dwelling units are in the pipeline right
> now and more can be anticipated after Metro
> comes.
>
> HOWEVER, these are mostly garden (ga) and high
> rise (hr) multi-family dwelling units which have
> very low rates of high school student generation
> particularly when compared to single family
> dwellings (sfd). Base on the high school student
> generation rates used by FCPS to extract proffers
> from the builders of these ga and hr units,
> 120-301 high school kids will be coming to SL from
> new housing over the next 2-3 years.
>
> There isn't much sfd dirt left in Reston. There
> is a new sfd subdivision in the Madison Island
> which has 154 sfd and projects to generate 24 high
> school kids.
>
> Also see the earlier posts about the low yield of
> elementary kids to SL. Haven't seen an
> explanation supported by numbers, just a lot of
> idle speculation.
>
> Until that phenomenon is understood and reversed,
> I expect the high school pop from existing Reston
> homes will continue to fall as Reston couples age
> in place, after their one or two kids have left
> for college (Reston's couples were
> disproportionately adherents of ZPG compared to
> the rest of the County), rather than turning over
> empty nest homes to young families.
>
> Reston's existing sfds are smaller than the new
> houses built in Loudoun and further west and north
> and thus not as attractive to younger families.
> The existing sfds have also appreciated to prices
> that put them beyond the reach of most young
> families especially in a mortgage market with much
> tighter underwriting standards. Even modest,
> starter townhouses reached prices in excess of
> $400,000 by 2005. No doubt those prices have
> fallen off but even at $350,000 a family needs an
> income of $140,000 to think about buying one of
> those TH, never mind an sfd.

Thanks again. Any new private/parochial high schools being built or expanded? [This is another factor that FCPS ignores. When I asked why, I was told (1) they don't have access to such data (does the County not know what is bing built?)and (2) "those" students tend to come in from other counties.]

Has the SB considered how many students may be coming to South lakes next year via Pupil Placement? I would guess that with the new state of the art facilities that South Lakes will have, and all of the positive attributes that the SL PTSA has been speaking about with regards to the IB studies, etc., there will be many parents who will be clamoring to get into South Lakes.

I think that with all of the media attention regarding this Boundary Study, many people who may not have been familiar with South Lakes, or those that dismissed South Lakes due to problems that existed in the past, will now consider SL a via option for their childrens education.

The school may pick up a couple of hundred new students, just based on all of the wonderful opportunies that will be available at South Lakes, and therefore, the County SB could just scrap the forced boundary study. I think that South lakes would benifit greatly, because they would be receiving students that "want" to be a part of the unique South Lakes education.

Maybe the South Lakes PTSA can start marketing the school to people, via open houses, ads etc.

Just a thought..

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks again. Any new private/parochial high
> schools being built or expanded?

None

All the FCPS staff have to do to find out about new private high schools is ask the County Zoning and Planning Department or DPW&ES as most new private high schools would require a special exception from the Board of Supervisors or special permit from the Zoning Board of Appeals which P&Z staffs. Public schools go through a similar process called "2232." All new private and public schools have to get a site plan approved which DPW&ES processes. The information is readily available. The FCPS staff is just too lazy to get it.

And the empirical basis for the staff to say "the students at private high schools come from other counties" is what exactly? more lazy bs.

Because all kids are required to attend a school (so we know they aren't slaving away in sweat shops in violation of child labor laws) and the schools enforce the truancy laws, FCPS has to know where all students are enrolled or if they are home schooled.

The information is readily available someone at FCPS just has to want to find it.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has the SB considered how many students may be
> coming to South lakes next year via Pupil
> Placement? I would guess that with the new state
> of the art facilities that South Lakes will have,
> and all of the positive attributes that the SL
> PTSA has been speaking about with regards to the
> IB studies, etc., there will be many parents who
> will be clamoring to get into South Lakes.
>
> I think that with all of the media attention
> regarding this Boundary Study, many people who may
> not have been familiar with South Lakes, or those
> that dismissed South Lakes due to problems that
> existed in the past, will now consider SL a via
> option for their childrens education.
>
> The school may pick up a couple of hundred new
> students, just based on all of the wonderful
> opportunies that will be available at South Lakes,
> and therefore, the County SB could just scrap the
> forced boundary study. I think that South lakes
> would benifit greatly, because they would be
> receiving students that "want" to be a part of the
> unique South Lakes education.
>
> Maybe the South Lakes PTSA can start marketing the
> school to people, via open houses, ads etc.
>
> Just a thought..

From various sources ask if South Lakes has been marketing itself at all middle schools. Has it been to Kilmer and Cooper? They do bus people from Herndon and reston and Western Great Falls to Kilmer. That is the GT center serving much of what normal people would consider part of this boundary process. I doubt FCPS even tries.

One year FCPS was in a gt center boundary process and had a scenario where people were bussed past hughes to carson - anything south lakes related isn't on Strauss' map. Call Hone. Call Raney - he might be interested in the costs of avoiding South Lakes. No one else has been since brickner.

>
> There isn't much sfd dirt left in Reston.
>

From the air, it looks like there is quite a bit of dirt. A little infill development could make it look just like the area a few miles to the west, which feed the Chantilly and Westfield pyramids. That might provide a larger pool of students for SLHS.

22180, thank you for your post on the for the January 10 school board meeting. I just listened to it.

1. I found it most discouraging that one of the "At Large Members" admitted to being "mean" to the Madison Island folks by refusing to visit with them because they "just didn't want to send their kids to South Lakes." This same person called South Lakes a "Crown Jewel of the school system."


I am concerned that someone on the board finds a school with such student attrition, SOL failure rates, yet consistent violence, despite the shrinking school population, to be a "Crown Jewel of the school system."

[I guess from her perspective, South Lakes is doing better than other schools with similar population pools? Frankly, I am under the impression that she wants to "save" South Lakes at any cost and has a low opinion of those who do not agree with her.]

2. Another person, near the beginning of the meeting, talked about equitable redistribution of resources. What does that mean? The students who are "shifted" from one school to the next are going to need the same resources won't they? Is this an economy of scale issue? More students in one school means that the county can purchase more resources for the same money?

I am affraid, perhaps wrongly, that somehow the kids will not get the same benefits they once had at their existing schools, ergo, "equitable redistribution."


3. I was very glad to here on Board member refer to the parents, students, and tax payers as "customers." But his idea of "attracting" people to a school though permotion of programs was shot down --which I found displeasing. Actually, that worries me.

I think Fox Mill district is doomed to be redistricted from Oakton High School after listen to the meeting. I noticed that no one at that meeting talked about speaking with parents from the Fox Mill district either by the way.

This is very sobbering and serious and causing me to think through some things even if my son seems to have been spared from being forced from Oakton High School.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your post to January 10 school board meeting.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > For 7 years the parents of SL tried to get
>
> >
> > Let's talk about measurable improvements:
> How's
> > largest gain in the County on SAT scores for
> > improvement?

>
TM & SA -
If you look starting on p. 134, Padre, Verity and I had some discussions over the SL SAT "spectacular increase". Humans are naturally inclined to find patterns even though what they are seeing is pure random noise. When you flip a coin, there are going to be sequences of heads and tails, but the probability is still 50-50.

Three basic points -

1) Turns out the headline number - the SAT average score - was up as advertised, but the prior year was down from the previous year. I wasn't able to find any County press releases advertising that SL had fallen that year... (There isn't random noise in the advertising...)
2) The unadvertised and more useful number - the school median vs the national median - was nearly exactly the same in the 3 years available on the county web site.
3) When you get results that look like 1 & 2, the source of the difference is typically in outliers. And, at SL, there was a documented difference in set of test takers last year. A significantly lower number of students with disabilities took the test last year.

In other words, there was no significant change in the SL SAT scores that can't be explained by changes in the set of kids taking the test.

Verity pointed out what looked like a potential downward trend at Oakton. I agreed that it looked like a potential trend, but there's not enough data to:

1) believe it is an actual trend based on the streaks in random noise problem, or
2) believe that the source of the trend, if it's an actual trend, is

A) actually a result of what's happening at the school (including potential changes in the set of kids taking the test, as point 3 above appears to indicate versus changes in real effects based on e.g. teaching changes),or
B) changes in in the set of kids coming to the school (perhaps some new housing project opened up 10 years ago in the area.)

Addendum: sorry for the spelling and grammar errors by the way. Still too cheap to buy a checker.

Fox Mill Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 22180, thank you for your post on the for the
> January 10 school board meeting. I just listened
> to it.
>
> 1. I found it most discouraging that one of the
> "At Large Members" admitted to being "mean" to the
> Madison Island folks by refusing to visit with
> them because they "just didn't want to send their
> kids to South Lakes." This same person called
> South Lakes a "Crown Jewel of the school system."
>
>
> I am concerned that someone on the board finds a
> school with such student attrition, SOL failure
> rates, yet consistent violence, despite the
> shrinking school population, to be a "Crown Jewel
> of the school system."
>
>
>
> 2. Another person, near the beginning of the
> meeting, talked about equitable redistribution of
> resources. What does that mean? The students who
> are "shifted" from one school to the next are
> going to need the same resources won't they? Is
> this an economy of scale issue? More students in
> one school means that the county can purchase more
> resources for the same money?
>
> I am affraid, perhaps wrongly, that somehow the
> kids will not get the same benefits they once had
> at their existing schools, ergo, "equitable
> redistribution."
>
>
> 3. I was very glad to here on Board member refer
> to the parents, students, and tax payers as
> "customers." But his idea of "attracting" people
> to a school though permotion of programs was shot
> down --which I found displeasing. Actually, that
> worries me.
>
> I think Fox Mill district is doomed to be
> redistricted from Oakton High School after listen
> to the meeting. I noticed that no one at that
> meeting talked about speaking with parents from
> the Fox Mill district either by the way.
>
> This is very sobbering and serious and causing me
> to think through some things even if my son seems
> to have been spared from being forced from Oakton
> High School.
>
> Anyway, thank you for sharing your post to January
> 10 school board meeting.


Thanks, that shows how "arbitrary" these sb members are..however I am sure there have been plenty of private communications between SB members and citizens of communities affected by the redistricting about who should go and who gets to stay, etc. It is all too political and this redistricting is all for the wrong reasons...politics in my opinion.

Baffled,

No one has ever talked to me from the School Board about these changes and I live in a district that appears slated for the change. It is not good. No one has talked to my wife ethier. She is most displeased.

That someone's child should be used a member of a "surge" to save a school without parental consent is most unsetteling to me and my wife.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It's Lake Anne, Dogwood and Terraset that are
> underpreforming compared to other FCPS elementary
> schools with similar demographics.
>
>

I'd argue that Dogwood is a special case, that it's school averages are spectacularly useless in evaluating whether Dogwood is underperforming.

If we look at the Dogwood actual area, it's a combination of about 60% very low income housing east of the Parkway and 40% middle/upper middle housing west of it, with absolutely no one in the middle. The result is that the averages and results are entirely unrepresentative of the population there. So, for example, while Dogwood has a headline 30%+ mobility rate, the 30% is really a combination of about 60% mobility and 10% mobility.

In the high impact area, that very high mobility rate also means that the kids test results are even more strongly correlated to their socioeconomics than normal since half of the high impact area kids tested at the end of the year weren't there at the beginning.

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled,
>
> No one has ever talked to me from the School Board
> about these changes and I live in a district that
> appears slated for the change. It is not good.
> No one has talked to my wife ethier. She is most
> displeased.
>
> That someone's child should be used a member of a
> "surge" to save a school without parental consent
> is most unsetteling to me and my wife.

I understand how you feel and it is a shame how a redistricting process such as this one just plucks a neighborhood..Fox Mill is the only one out of handful of communities that is as a whole slated to go..I did not think it was right either.

Please accept my sincere apology for my comments that have contributed to the hostility surrounding the redistricting issue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2008 07:48AM by Margie.

Listening to the MP3 on the January 10th meeting, some things popped out. First, Dean Tistadt discussed why other small schools were not having boundary changes. He said that Marshall would be growing because of growth in Tysons Corner area. Sorry, but Tysons area is pretty much built out. More surprising, he says that Marshall will soon be renovated with capacity increased! One can only wonder, why? That property is worth SO much money, and Falls Church is an adjacent school that is under enrolled. Don't make the same mistake again, renovating a school that could easily be closed with students absorbed by neighboring schools! They can't redistrict Falls Church because it is next to Marshall and they are both under enrolled.

Tisdadt says that Langley and Madison weren't considered in South Lakes redistricting because the scope of the study was only to reduce crowding at Westfield and Chantilly and increase enrollment at South Lakes. The school board decided that, not staff.

Stu discussed past administrative boundary changes from Madison to South Lakes. It sounded like if the Madison Island was withdrawn from this boundary study, Stu would advocate for an administrative boundary change with the same result.

Tina Hone asked why not a county wide boundary study. She also sounded opposed to sending the Island to South Lakes.

Raney agreed with everything Hone said. Doesn't think that Madison Island is an island because of a zone of commercial. He and Hone thought the map was very misleading. Both Raney and Hone wanted to know why a moratorium couldn't be considered. Raney wanted to know if the boundary change would increase costs during this budget crunch. He's concerned about the limits of this boundary study. He wants to consider a moratorium, a step back for a year or two. Projections at Westfield and Chantilly show problems will correct themselves. Customers need to see the business case for whatever decision we're going to make. Customers want a non boundary solution. Raney wants a solution to the program problems at South Lakes. Doesn't want to solve a program problem with facilities solution. (Great point!)

Smith believes that we must get students out of Westfield. Her children go to Chantilly so she believes firmly in moving students out of Chantilly, (her words, not mine.) She is highly supportive of this boundary study. She never went to boundary study meetings in the past so she knows many parents who support this change are not at the meetings and are not being heard, based on her own lack of involvement when her schools were redistricted in the past. She will ask questions about the study but supports it.

Stu is upset about the comments of the others, Raney and Hone. He says the board set the criteria and it's not right to change it now. It wouldn't be fair to change things now. (As if any of this is fair.) He doesn't want this to be a budget decision. Fusses about magnets being expensive, county now does'focus schools' because of the expensive of magnets. Stu says a magnet is more expensive than doing this boundary change. He's not happy with Raney. Wants students moved, and not 'just plow more money into the school'. Stu is obviously upset with Raney's comments.

Hone talks about south county middle. She says she has a better perspective because she can look at the whole county. South Lakes is the "crown jewel" in our school system, our very best high school, but she will not close her eyes to the problems in the process. She's upset about this boundary process and how poorly it has worked. She sounded a bit snippy with Stu.

All of them want to talk about this more on Monday, the 14th.

Janie says the last county wide study was in the early 1980's. They closed schools, wanted to save money. It was very bitter but they believed there was a pressing need and a permanent decline in enrollment. Even though everyone agreed that the whole county needed the change, there was still much anger and bitterness.

Tistadt says that staff has no ability to do a moratorium since the school board told them to do this boundary study. Staff can't stop it, only the school board can.

Chairman Storck said on February 11th they will talk about what they want to do. They could call another work session, if necessary. Storck says they can do many things when they vote, including support the staff recommendation. He says the emails they receive are important and that they read every one of them but don't always have time to answer them all.

So keep those cards and letters coming in!

IMO, Bottom line, Raney and Hone will vote against the proposal. Janie might too. Kathy Smith was adamant that she will vote for this plan, or something very similar, but had concerns about anyone in her district being moved to a school further (sic) away. She mentioned that she wouldn't speak for anyone in Stu's district. The rest of the school board will not muck around in a decision about a school not in their district. So the vote will be 9 to 3 for the boundary change, or, more likely, 10 to 2.

Stu is wrong to be angry at Raney during Raney's first meeting as a school board member, particularly when it's clear that Stu doesn't need his vote.

Dan Storck is chairman for another year. Kathy Smith was elected vice chair. The usual pattern is the vice chair becomes the next chair. So we can expect Kathy to be chair again in 2009 and 2010.

Thanks Baffled,

My brother and I were talking last night about the redistricting. He came by and told me he heard it on the news and knew I would hit the roof when I found out because he knows how hard I have worked to educate my son.

[The lengths I have gone to get that boy to "learn" how to learn have been very difficult for me. My son did not grasp learning in the way I have seen other children take to study. I kept my son in the Japanese Immersion Program against the advice of one elementary school councilor --thank God.]

Anyway, my brother and I talked about our experience in another city we both lived in and what we saw happening and we drew some conclusions.

I can only say that I sincerely hope that everything I am concerned about is misguided but unfortunatly I doubt it.

Good Luck to You

>>>>I am concerned that someone on the board finds a
> school with such student attrition, SOL failure
> rates, yet consistent violence, despite the
> shrinking school population, to be a "Crown Jewel
> of the school system."<<<<

I found that rather alarming too. People from outside the district might label TJ as the crown jewel since students there have won so many national, and international, awards AND because it is recently been rated the number ONE school in the country. But South Lakes? With such a high dropout rate? It saddens me to think that someone on our school board would have such misplaced priorities.

As far as I've heard, the people in the areas who are most effected by this change, Floris and Fox Mill, have had no meetings with their School Board representative. It was obvious that Janie has met with people in the Island, and Tina Hone too. It was also obvious that Stu has not met with the people in Floris and Fox Mill. Perhaps he will now do that. Has anyone heard about meetings with him? He owes them that much, at a minimum.

>>>at SL, there was a documented difference in set of test takers last year. A significantly lower number of students with disabilities took the test last year.<<<

I am sorry to hear that. I do hope that they aren't discouraging students with disabilities from taking the SAT.

There are so many ways to cook the books on the SAT, I would never look at one year as any kind of trend.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>I am concerned that someone on the board finds
> a
> > school with such student attrition, SOL failure
> > rates, yet consistent violence, despite the
> > shrinking school population, to be a "Crown
> Jewel
> > of the school system."<<<<
>
> I found that rather alarming too. People from
> outside the district might label TJ as the crown
> jewel since students there have won so many
> national, and international, awards AND because it
> is recently been rated the number ONE school in
> the country. But South Lakes? With such a high
> dropout rate? It saddens me to think that someone
> on our school board would have such misplaced
> priorities.
>
> As far as I've heard, the people in the areas who
> are most effected by this change, Floris and Fox
> Mill, have had no meetings with their School Board
> representative. It was obvious that Janie has
> met with people in the Island, and Tina Hone too.
> It was also obvious that Stu has not met with the
> people in Floris and Fox Mill. Perhaps he will
> now do that. Has anyone heard about meetings with
> him? He owes them that much, at a minimum.


I have not heard of any upcoming Floris/FM meetings with Gibson. I don't know if he is going to try or not. Probably not because he is too focused on SL and its community. Personally, I am quite nauseated by the results of the Jan 10 meeting among the sb members.

>>>Personally, I am quite nauseated by the results of the Jan 10 meeting among the sb members.<<<

I understand. There doesn't appear to be a school board rep who represents your area's concerns.

The comments from the school board do not bode well for our students. It's going to be a looooong 4 years under this board.

I can count at least 5 school board members who would support a county wide redistricting. If they can get two more to join them, they could do it. But this process at South Lakes has been so terrible, they would need an entirely different process. It would depend on how much power Janie and her supporters have to prevent it. Others here can better judge that. Thomas More? Thoughts?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>I do hope that they aren't discouraging students with disabilities from taking the >SAT. There are so many ways to cook the books on the SAT....

Is there no depth to which you will not plumb in your quest to discredit South Lakes? Neen, you win the Sid Blumenthal award today for the best innuendo and smear.

Neen Wrote:

>
> As far as I've heard, the people in the areas who
> are most effected by this change, Floris and Fox
> Mill, have had no meetings with their School Board
> representative. It was obvious that Janie has
> met with people in the Island, and Tina Hone too.
> It was also obvious that Stu has not met with the
> people in Floris and Fox Mill. Perhaps he will
> now do that. Has anyone heard about meetings with
> him? He owes them that much, at a minimum.



uhhh, he doesn't return our phone calls. we are a big thorn in his side.

I saw the SB meeting on December 10th. Neen is correct in assessment of the comments.

Raney is for moratorium

Hone is for do-over

Bradsher has her own problems but having had her own kids involved in SoCo I think she is also for do-over

Strauss- Well you would hope she would stand by her constituents ( Madison Island)

Phil N- Eichner- made a comment during the budget portion stating something to effect that SB cannot continue to alienate parents that were of the non disadvantaged variety, ie customer base and that they would be driven out of FCPS to private sector and that would be bad

Smith- loves for all kids except for her own of course to leave Chantilly and Westfield. Said she was speaking for those who dont speak??????????? Mutes???

Gibson- wont hear about budget when it comes to the boudary. Budget be damned. I want more kids. Oh and who cares if we over crowd Sunrise Valley we will do another boundary for terrasett and while I am at it what about that new housing development coming in on Hunter Mill road? How many houses is that? oh and arent they running $2million and over. That may work for me...

Kaye Kory- dont know, not too keen on Stu or Janie from the look of her. Frankly I cant blame her, all night long they sit there treating the others like they are kin to Borat.

No one else spoke except for Tessie Wilson telling Stu to calm down when he went for the jugular of Raney. Love Raney by the way. Imagine someone in government asking for financial accountability from others in government. Oh that has to make them mad as hell.

BTW- has anyone heard about the SB being served with legal papers regarding the West Co boundary? I heard it on the bus. Looks like each group stands alone for now. Probably creates a bit more expense for the SB if this goes through and they face numerous actions.

SB must pay outside attorneys. They dont have internal legal capable of this type of thing. Mmm MMM mmm

For those of you watching the budget portion of the meeting, that equates to about 10 mid level teacher salaries, or 9 teachers aids, 9 lunch ladies, or 9 janitors, 2 football fields of lovely astro turf, regardless of the outcomes.

Irresponsible public policy. Guess who gets to pay the FCPS legal fees? That's right people we do.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He said that Marshall would be
> growing because of growth in Tysons Corner area.
> Sorry, but Tysons area is pretty much built out.
> More surprising, he says that Marshall will soon
> be renovated with capacity increased! One can
> only wonder, why?

Because thousands of multi-family units will come to Tysons when Metro is in place. The P&Z staff is determined to balance the largest office complex between NYC and Atlanta with huge numbers of duas in hopes of turning Tysons into a pedestrian and mass transit oriented downtown similar to those of older cities U. S. east coast. It's a pipedream so long as there is an interstate interchange (7 & 123) eating up dozens of acres in the center of Tysons.

But it would take 25,000 high rise units to generate 700 kids to fill up Marshall. Doubt that McLean Citizens Association and Foust will let that many be built in Tysons.

> Tisdadt says that Langley and Madison weren't
> considered in South Lakes redistricting because
> the scope of the study was only to reduce crowding
> at Westfield and Chantilly and increase enrollment
> at South Lakes. The school board decided that,
> not staff.

Well a less politically savy populous might fall for that line.

> So keep those cards and letters coming in!

Agreed. "Reston kids at Reston's high school" should be e-mailed by everyone to all SB members but Stu, Janie and Smith.

> Stu is wrong to be angry at Raney during Raney's
> first meeting as a school board member,
> particularly when it's clear that Stu doesn't need
> his vote.

Agreed. Why alienate a new guy unnecessarily. Stu was in full bullying mode. He even went after Janie on youth league athletic affiliations not being a valid consideration in the process.

> Dan Storck is chairman for another year. Kathy
> Smith was elected vice chair. The usual pattern
> is the vice chair becomes the next chair. So we
> can expect Kathy to be chair again in 2009 and
> 2010.

Stuy wanted it but could not get the votes. Especially after the VDOE citation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2008 10:19PM by Thomas More.

NotSoFast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mmm MMM mmm
>
>
What does this mean? Is it good or bad?
I am intrigued.

My facilitator was not an employee of FCPS. He was a professional facilitator who was hired to do what he did.

Do you really think that elementary and middle school Principals and teachers from around the county volunteered, without pay, to spend their evenings away from their families, passing out agendas and directing traffic at these meetings?

Nope, they are contract people who get paid for overtime activities.

These numbers must be incorrect. Something was not reported correctly. Or does someone have an explaination for why Oakton's dropout rate would increase by nearly 3 times in one year?

Oakton / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
Class of 2007 / 555 / 490 / 11.71%
Class of 2006 / 520 / 498 / 4.23%
Class of 2005 / 524 / 504 / 3.82%
Class of 2004 / 481 / 492 / -2.29%
4-year total / 2080 / 1984 / 4.62%

NotSoFast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SB must pay outside attorneys.

They've had outside counsel on retainer for decades, Tom Cawley of Hunton & "Gruntin" aka Hunton & Williams. Very expense but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a volume discount for FCPS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2008 10:14PM by Thomas More.

>>>Stuy wanted it but could not get the votes. Especially after the VDOE citation<<<

Yes. Poor Stu. He thought he should have chair after the 2003 election. As I recall, he was the ONLY school board member to vote against Kathy Smith for chair. The board has passed him over for the last 4 years and it appears they intend to do the same for another 4 years.

I am a bit surprised that Kathy Smith appears to the favorite, making her chair during the tenure of the last board and again during this new board tenure. Perhaps there aren't many volunteers for the position, other than Kathy and Stu. I would expect to see Ms Hone emerge soon as a leader, in her quest for future higher office.

Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >I do hope that they aren't discouraging students
> with disabilities from taking the >SAT. There are
> so many ways to cook the books on the SAT....
>
> Is there no depth to which you will not plumb in
> your quest to discredit South Lakes? Neen, you
> win the Sid Blumenthal award today for the best
> innuendo and smear.

Sorry to burst your naive little bubble but educators across the country have been doing just that for decades. Read any of Kozol's multiple books on education.

Can't say if FCPS has done that but there is an oligarich, elitist, exclusionary tradition in Virginia and in FFX so its possible, especially as to African-American populations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2008 10:32PM by Thomas More.

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If my child starts there this fall, what impact
> will I have and when? If the current SL parents
> haven't been able to get rid of IB, why will a few
> new parents fare any better? If the majority of
> the vocal SL parents like IB, then we have no
> chance at all.

Add to that, SL staff has been trained to teach IB, not AP. To teach any AP course a teacher must be trained and certified. Also add, the administration at SL prefers IB, as does the school board.

FCPS is the only county in the US with so many IB schools. There's a reason for that, our administration and staff love it. It's part of their agenda for our schools.

IB will remain at South Lakes for the foreseeable future. The reasons will be that it would be too expensive to run both programs and we're in a budget crunch. Current students who are in IB, from 7th grade on, must be allowed to finish the program they were promised. It would be too expensive to also have AP during the next 6 years. Staff is not trained to teach AP. The majority of those at South Lakes and in Reston prefer IB. The list of reasons will be lengthy, but the bottom line is, staff wants it and they don't care if parent's don't want it, just as they don't care that parents hate "Everyday Math". They don't care. They don't have to. They're the phone company, the last public monopoly. Take it, or leave it.

>>>Madison and McLean are both projected to be overcrowded<<<

I do not see how that can happen given that Vienna and McLean (the part that serves McLean HS) are almost totally built out. Where will these students come from?

The high rise buildings that will be built around the metro at Tysons, sometime during this century, maybe, will be filled with young, single, workers who work for the beltway bandits there. They won't be families with teenagers going to Marshall.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >I do hope that they aren't discouraging
> students
> > with disabilities from taking the >SAT. There
> are
> > so many ways to cook the books on the SAT....
> >
> > Is there no depth to which you will not plumb
> in
> > your quest to discredit South Lakes? Neen, you
> > win the Sid Blumenthal award today for the best
> > innuendo and smear.
>
> Sorry to burst your naive little bubble but
> educators across the country have been doing just
> that for decades. Read any of Kozol's multiple
> books on education.
>
> Can't say if FCPS has done that but there is an
> oligarich, elitist, exclusionary tradition in
> Virginia and in FFX so its possible, especially as
> to African-American populations.

I would be most happy to hear the explanation for the sudden increase in SAT scores at South Lakes but none have been forth coming. Does anyone know why they jumped this one year? Was there more SAT review last year? Fewer students taking the exam? Or something else?

Forum Reader said:
>>>Then why didn't she stop the Westfield addition? Is she planning to remove the Chantilly modular and reduce its capacity from 2625 to 2200? Is she planning to make Westfield a secondary school? Any such changes will lead to ANOTHER boundary change so THIS one need to be stopped NOW.<<<

Many of us can see many, many, reasons for a do over, and a do-it-right process over the next year. Adopting a process that did not result in so much angry, so much attacking of neighbors, could change everything and make this boundary change a success. Continuing with this horribly flawed process can only have a horribly, flawed, result. People are simply too angry to be willing to send their children to South Lakes. The children they so want, the higher performing students, will not enroll in South Lakes because of their anger at the process. Those are exactly the students who are the most likely to have options and exercise them. This will not work, because of the process. Tina Hone is right about that.

What is the downside to a do over? Perhaps giving South Lakes money for more teacher positions and classes for next year? Why is Stu SOOOO insistent that more money is not the answer, only more bodies will solve the program problems at South Lakes and South Lakes MUST have those bodies NOW, in 9 months.

How will waiting a year, and doing it right, be detrimental?

Look, I am getting frustrated at this IB vs. AP issue. Yes, at an emotional level there is some credence to the view that IB is typically only found at the lesser schools, and that may cause a perception problem. But the problem with IB isn't really one of perception for many reasonable parents. It is one of fit. The young man (and other young people) who have completed the full IB diploma are absolutely spot on in being proud of their accomplishment - it is a very robust program. But, as often happens, their detailed laudatory comments about the program reveal why it is not a fit for so many average to above average students in Fairfax County. It requires 13 fairly advanced courses (forget about the direct comparison to AP - let's just say 13 advanced IB courses are very rigorous). That is the point - very few AP students take anywhere near 13 AP courses - us TJ parents know that even TJ'ers only occasionally dip into double digits on AP courses. So can't everyone understand the issue in a more balanced way? The IB program in its full blown iteration (and that is the one in which the school must revolve around) is for a very small minority of students - and it is a lot of work - a lot of work - which I agree is a good thing but the program for many is just too much to complete, particularly with kids who are a much better fit for something more reasonable - as in 5 or 6 AP courses - permitting a bit more free time, and focus on athletics, drama, music, etc. And I am not talking about the very high IQ kids - lots of AP's - IB - they will master either - people here in the burbs tend to forget that 135 IQ's are in an incredibly tiny percentage of the general population - and they tend to read and compute not only well, but pretty darn fast - so they can get through any of these kind of programs. But I am talking about the average to above average kids - the bread and butter in terms of college preparation and admissions in this County - the IB program is a heck of a lot to chew for them. This is why the IB program is so problematic - and why it will be such a huge problem for the new matriculants at South Lakes. Put it this way, very honest claims will often be made for pupil placement - and these won't be presented because the parents are elitist, racist, or so on - no - the requests will be made because a number of parents know that they just don't want their kids to bite off more than they can reasonably chew. And I just don't get it - South Lakes has undergone a year of rancor with this re-districting issue and if they yet still have a shortage of "regular" students - yikes! What are they going to do - start over with another redistricting effort? I don't wish any doom on them, but the attitude in the community is terrible, and a lousy take-up rate is a significant possibility.

By the way, I applaud Maria Allen's comment about drop-out rates. There is a great deal of conflict in academic research - one camp believes that all districts substantially undercount drop-outs - this was detailed in a Washington Post article about a year ago. But I particularly applaud mentioning the significant issue of the Hispanic drop-out rate. What happens to these students? I understand that many that do finish receive a lesser diploma inasmuch as they often get stuck in ESOL classes from which they rarely emerge. Not to pick on South Lakes - Maria Allen rightly describes the issue as being one common to all schools with a large Hispanic population - but if the anecdotal information I hear about the lesser diploma or curriculum is true - what results is a school that is far "smaller" than the raw population numbers appear. Those kids taking the SAT at South Lakes (including those belonging to another significant minority group whose scores are shockingly low given the income level in Reston) - that is - the kids just taking the SAT - forget about how well they do on it - have little in common curriculum-wise with many of the Hispanic kids - so not only does the school have separate but unequal with the IB program (that is understandable), they also have it with ESOL students, and with the MMR students. In other words, when South Lakes supporters state they need more general education students - they really, really mean it - more than they really want to publicly let on - take away the IB'ers (the full diploma candidates), the ESOL'ers - the MMR'ers - the drop-outs, and how small of school is there? Could it be from that perspective a 900 student school? Shame on the School Board for letting this happen if this is true (and I don't think I am far off) - no wonder the redistricting is causing so much trouble - people don't generally look to coaches of a 1-15 NFL football team to be the agents of change of success - this is why the Miami coaches were fired this year - and why is it that anyone would think that this current school board will pull this off? Sure, they can redraw boundaries and give orders, but that doesn't mean everyone will show up.

Quantum
Who are the general education at South Lakes for whom this redistricting is being done? What courses are they now taking, if not IB? And what courses do they hope to get as a result of this redistricting? I agree that the number must be quite small. I also agree with your statement:
>>>a lousy take-up rate is a significant possibility.<<<

You say that IB is not about perception, and I agree, for those of us who are interested in education and/or have children who will soon attend high school. Many other parents, of children in elementary school, know nothing about the different high school programs in FC, other than IB is the program at the 'bad schools'. They may not know much, but they know they want to avoid schools with IB schools.

AP is cheaper and it benefits more students. Hardly rocket science. But it doesn't fit the political agendas of our staff and school board. IB does. Ideology trumps practically and student needs, always, in FCPS. If they can, they will expand IB. They will never abandon it in any school. Jim Raney seems to be the only school board member who cares about the customer and their wants and needs. Liz Bradsher cares too, about her middle school in south county. Other than those two, I've seen little concern for the needs and wants of any community. The school board know best. They're busy, promoting a political agenda that is more important than anything else. So back off and take it or leave it.

"We don't care, we don't have to, we're the phone company".

Even Ma Bell eventually fell and people got choice.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... does someone have an
> explaination for why Oakton's dropout rate would
> increase by nearly 3 times in one year?
>
> Oakton / Sep FR / Jun SR / Loss %
> Class of 2007 / 555 / 490 / 11.71%

I can't explain it, but I can provide more Oakton details:
9th grade, Sep 03 - 555
9th grade, Jun 04 - 546

10th grade, Sep 04 - 543
10th grade, June 05 - 547

11th grade, Sep 05 - 540
11th grade, June 06 - 531

12th grade, Sep 06 - 508
12 grade, Jun 07 - 490

The drop numbers for seniors are wrong. It doesn't make sense that Oakton would lose 41 students from the end of 11th grade to the end of 12th grade. That's too high for one year, especially senior year.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorceror's Apprentice Wrote:

> I would be most happy to hear the explanation for
> the sudden increase in SAT scores at South Lakes
> but none have been forth coming. Does anyone know
> why they jumped this one year? Was there more SAT
> review last year? Fewer students taking the exam?
> Or something else?

Neen -

As everyone knows, SATs are very highly correlated to socioeconomics. Why would anyone expect any change given that there's been exactly no change in inputs
So, when the SB claims big differences year-on-year, be very very skeptical. Especially if they are claiming the school did it.

But, of course, we have the loud press release, so SL must have done something spectacular. It MUST be something at the school. But when you look at the data, the facts are that the average jumped, but the median did not. And, given the school's own data, there's a very good explanation.

As I said, the median was essentially exactly the same in 05/06/07. The averages moved around. O5 > 06 < 07. But the board didn't trumpet the flat median or the 06 drop, did they? (06 was 10 below 05, 07 30 above 06).

When you get identical medians, but averages moving around, look for what's happening with the outliers. In the SL case, half a dozen fewer students with disabilities took the test, and per the school's own numbers, those kids tend to do very poorly on the test. That's enough to move the averages significantly without moving the mean much. Add in 6 low scores and you'd drive the average down, probably to the 05/06 level.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is why the IB program is so problematic - and
> why it will be such a huge problem for the new
> matriculants at South Lakes.

Fabulous analysis. Well done!

Neen, thanks for your reply. I agree that most people would consider TJ to be FFCPS' "Crown Jewel." I certainly see it that way despite my son going to another FFCP high school.

[My son and two of his Patrol members from Scouts applied to TJ and didn't make the cut. At least they did their best.]

Members on the School Board "apear" less concerned about the loss to Fox Mill or Floris residents of their coveted high schools than taking pressure off of Chantilly and Westfield while saving South Lakes with a surge.

Moreover, the SB "seems" willing to take the risk of loosing families attracted to Floris and Fox Mill for those coveted high schools.

Now that is allot to think about from where I sit --literally. Sobber stuff.

IB courses can be taken individually. People here are focusing with rabid teeth on the full diploma, which has no comparison with AP or any other program in the US. Get over it.

With IB, you are afraid of what you don't know -- NONE of you has actually taken an IB course. Why don't you talk to those who have (without selectively picking out the one or two unsatisfied creatures -- of which there are plenty in the AP world, btw)? You have chosen to ignore every single post here from kids who have actually taken IB courses.

And you know what? It can be argued that the IB Diploma Programme IS a magnet -- something unusual, special, and rigorous to draw people to the school. Otherwise, individual IB courses are available to the same achievers who take AP. (Unless you're afraid it's a bit MORE rigorous b/c AP has been watered down over the years and doesn't have the same oversight and quality control... Really, how can you say AP is anything more than standard fare any more, given the numbers of kids who take these courses as Freshmen -- and we're not talking MENSA kids here.)

Go ahead and ignore the Fordham Study and any other objective information. You're entitled to your ignorance.

Addendum: "Fair Fax Estates Parent" should read "Fox Mill Estates Parent." Blew it again.

That is correct, people are welcome to their opinions, although they may not matter much in Fairfax County.

IB was supposed to work as a magnet. It just hasn't met with much success since most parents prefer the mainstream, US, program, AP.

You mileage may vary. You need not agree. You are also welcome to your opinion.

Most parents only KNOW the "mainstream" AP program. They fear change. Any change.

Yeah most of us "parents" aren't ready for change. We fear change so much we father and mother children, raise them, cloth them, educate them, take them to hospital, etc..

Sorry IB Veritas, but you kind of walked into that one. Anyway, I am glad you enjoy IB and it was good for you.

Take care.

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most parents only KNOW the "mainstream" AP
> program. They fear change. Any change.

So what? Perception is everything. They don't want IB. Period. They want the mainstream, US, program. The reason for their preference doesn't really matter, does it? It is what it is.

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah most of us "parents" aren't ready for change.
> We fear change so much we father and mother
> children, raise them, cloth them, educate them,
> take them to hospital, etc..

Don't forget the biggest change, diapers. Over and over and over.

Oh yes. The diapers.

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB courses can be taken individually.

We know.

> People here are focusing with rabid teeth on the full diploma,

Because the IBO gremlins in Zurich won't allow a school to offer individual IB courses unless the school has a diploma program. The diploma program benefits (?) only 5-8% of the student body but requires a disproportionate share of a school's resources including a full time on-site coordinator who counts against the teacher allocation for budget purposes. The diploma program also requires courses be offered even when the number of students taking the course are so few that if it were a non-IB course, the course would have been dropped. Thus, IB kids are getting a disproportionate share of the limited teacher resources at South Lakes.

If you want an elitist euro-centric, modern language focused, small class, paper grind of a curriculum, your parents should have paid for private school and given the rest of the SL kids back their economics class.

> With IB, you are afraid of what you don't know -- NONE of you has actually taken > an IB course.

My doctor doesn't have to have cancer to treat me for it. We can evaluate a curriculum without sitting through the course. We've reviewed the syllabi, the course materials and talked to teachers who have taught both AP and IB.

> Why don't you talk to those who have (without selectively picking out the one or > two unsatisfied creatures -- of which there are plenty in the AP world, btw)?

We have and we've learned about kids taking freshman history in senior year because they were fed up with the make work writing assignments. We heard about HL test results that aren't received until it's too late to advance place out of core or "intro. to" requirements at college. We've heard about teachers expecting entire plays and novels to be read over a weekend with tests on the entire content the following class meeting (Monday or Tuesday depending if your green or blue).

We've heard about kids having to drop all extra-curricular activities and social life in order to try to keep up with all the work.

> And you know what? It can be argued that the IB Diploma Programme IS a magnet -- > something unusual, special, and rigorous to draw people to the school.

It has had only a very marginal effect in that direction at SL. Less than 100 pupil-placed into SL for IB this year, while almost that number pupil placed out to get AP. Net gain to SL less than 50. Meanwhile SL is 700 kids short of full enrollment.

> Otherwise, individual IB courses are available to the same achievers who take
> AP.

Only if the diploma program stays.

> (Unless you're afraid it's a bit MORE rigorous

More time consuming, absolutely; more rigorous, not necessarily.

> b/c AP has been watered down over the years and doesn't have the same oversight > and quality control...

True, the College Board is not the control freak that IBO is. CB does review and approve the syllabi and course materials for any course seeking AP status. Its standards have been raised lately. Maybe in response to IB's competition?

> Really, how can you say AP is anything more than standard fare any more, given
the numbers of kids who take these courses as Freshmen -- and we're not talking MENSA kids here.)

How would you know if you never took an AP class. Have you reviewed an AP syllabi or course materials?

Glad IB worked for you but there was a price paid by your classmates in classes that were not available to them. Thank them at the next reunion.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2008 02:27AM by Thomas More.

IBVeritas Wrote:
> ... individual IB courses are
> available to the same achievers who take AP.
> (Unless you're afraid it's a bit MORE rigorous b/c ...

Once again: we must be clear to differentiate between IB High Level courses (generally two years) and IB Standard (or Subsidiary) Level classes (one year only). HL v. SL.

As a quick look at the course catalogs of William and Mary, UVA, and Virginia Tech will tell you, universities regard a two-year HL course to be roughly the equivalent of a one-year AP course. A full IB Diploma Grad (which we all seem to agree is maybe 5-8% of the students) will have three, or at the most four, HL courses. SL classes, the ones most students take, get VERY little college recognition - they simply are NOT considered to be as "rigorous" as AP. (With the full IB Diploma, Tech will grant a maximum 3 or 4 credits for SL coursework if the student has earned a "6" or "7" on the SL exam. Without the full IB Diploma, an SL course earns nothing at Tech.)

Please tell us - How many South Lakes students scored a "4" or higher on three or more High Level tests last year?

In comparison, look at Woodson, the school that got IB the same year as South Lakes, then studied both programs in detail and chose to keep AP and reject IB. How is that working out for them? Look at the Woodson home page and click on "AP Scholars." 286 students scored at least "3" or above on at least three AP courses. Woodson had a senior class of 414 last June. Some of these AP Scholar Awards are earned by juniors who will earn a second award in their senior year, but it is still apparent that the "average" Woodson student is taking and doing well on multiple AP exams.

>>>how can you say AP is anything more than standard fare any more<<<

BINGO!!!! That's EXACTLY why parents and students want AP! It's standard fare for college bound students!

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VoiceOfReason Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This fight is still ugly at best. Yes the
> school
> > board has the right to do what they are
> > doing....they were given that right in a vote
> in
> > Fairfax County. If you bought your house after
> > that...sorry. Your children are all students of
> > Fairfax County (one of the best school systems
> in
> > the country), no matter their ethnicity.
> > Something, I bet many of you did not have.
> >
> > I still see people attacking children. The two
> > schools who seem to be the most attacked are
> those
> > from South Lakes and those from McNair, as many
> of
> > you don't want to go to South Lakes or you do
> not
> > wish to go with McNair. Let me remind
> you....these
> > are children. How dare you say one is better
> than
> > the other because of the padding in your
> wallet.
> > It is really disgusting.
> >
> > My children are affected by this change...and I
> > voted in the election giving the power to the
> > school board, as I am a long time resident of
> > Fairfax County, although I did not attend
> school
> > here. Children respond to the teacher and the
> > parents. You get out of it, what you put into
> it.
> > There are great teachers in schools with
> problems
> > and there are teachers who don't care in
> schools
> > with stellar records. Yet we all seem to
> survive.
> >
> >
> > Live and let live. IB and AP are not the do all
> > and end all of any college education. I have to
> > ask...what about the average student...or God
> > Forbid, the special education student? Clearly,
> > every parent thinks their child is
> > exceptional....but some do have children that
> need
> > help, and some have children that don't qualify
> > for help, but could do better with some. But
> who
> > cares? Your children obviously don't need their
> > boundaries stretched. You obviously have all
> the
> > answers. Maybe you are the people who should be
> > the teachers here. As you who did your homework
> > when buying your home seem to have all the
> > answers. This whole thing makes me sick.
>
>
> I find this all extremely ugly and nauseating.
> Even my daughter is upset by this whole mess. She
> is a rising 9th grader by the way. Alot of people
> are, You mentioned that that is what happens when
> buying a home in the Fairfax County so are you
> implying now that the real estate agents when
> showing homes to potential buyers, they will have
> to tell these buyers "By the way, this house is at
> risk for redistricting and it is the norm in
> Fairfax County"? Reserve those for when it is
> absolutely necessary to redistrict..more like
> county-wide and at the availability of taxpayers
> funds, not at a $100 million shortfall.


I am not implying anything on behalf of a third party. Realtors can't know when or if a boundary change will happen. I'm tired of reading posts from people who bought their home where they did because of the schools they would attend. They did their homework, so they should know the school board has every right to do what they are doing. Yippy....how many of these people bought their home before the vote was given to the school board? Some maybe...but then they know.

I don't argue the fact that every parent has their beliefs, as do I, but some of the arguments here are laughable at best.

upset parents & kids Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > VoiceOfReason Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > I find this all extremely ugly and nauseating.
> > Even my daughter is upset by this whole mess.
> She
> > is a rising 9th grader by the way. Alot of
> people
> > are, You mentioned that that is what happens
> when
> > buying a home in the Fairfax County so are you
> > implying now that the real estate agents when
> > showing homes to potential buyers, they will
> have
> > to tell these buyers "By the way, this house is
> at
> > risk for redistricting and it is the norm in
> > Fairfax County"? Reserve those for when it is
> > absolutely necessary to redistrict..more like
> > county-wide and at the availability of
> taxpayers
> > funds, not at a $100 million shortfall.
>
>
> Thats really too bad that so many kids are upset
> over this. Of course they probably wouldn't be so
> upset and better able to adjust to whatever
> outcome occurs if thier parents weren't pulling
> there hair out over it and spending coutless hours
> here bitching about it.
>
> Here's an ugly little secret about real estate
> agents and property values; real estate agents are
> sales people. They also have a finite amount of
> product to sell. When there is the inevitable
> surplus inventory available in floris & fox mill
> they will educate themselves on the true value of
> it and market it to homebuyers.


And here's an ugly little secret for you...my children have no idea that their high school could change....why the hell should they? They are in elementary school. I know all about real estate agents and who they are....I've said all along home buyers should have delved further. But hey, clearly some people think their children are better than others. Did you know Brett Favre went to high school and college in Mississippi? He seems to have done alright. How many of you think better athletic opportunity are going to help your child? That seems to be part of the reason for the boundary change.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > VoiceOfReason Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This fight is still ugly at best. Yes the
> > school
> > > board has the right to do what they are
> > > doing....they were given that right in a vote
> > in
> > > Fairfax County...
> > I find this all extremely ugly and nauseating...
>
>
> They do not have the right to avoid schools closer
> to residences when such avoidance creates more
> unequal distribution based on race, color, or
> country of origin. That is Federal. They also
> have abdicated fiscal responsibility.
>
> The State conducts Efficency Reviews of School
> Divisions and IMHO FCPS is overdue:
> http://141.104.22.210/VDOE/efficiencyreview.html
>
> I read some of those reviews and they even get
> into the costs on cleaning and heating trailers v
> the building proper. Here there are important
> people ensconced at various schools and positions
> but the State could send out a middle income audit
> crew that has no vested interest.
>
> Info on composite index which determines the FCPS
> funding from Virgina:
> http://141.104.22.210/VDOE/suptsmemos/2007/inf241.
> html
>
> Just like in other states FX gets cash based on
> ability to pay.


So state how it is not based on race, color or country of origin...

taxpayer -Aldrin's on the Moon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herndon HS propaganda is Aldrin and Armstrong .
> Both seem to think the people coming from other
> Herndon feeders are crap. My research indicated
> that pre-McNair people said "Where's Armstrong?"
> since all others were in the process. Nobody on
> the Herndon area even questionned sincerely the
> exclusion of the other astronaut .
>
> Just how much proof do citizens need that those
> residences are in the wrong school by any
> standard?


All people need is to see your ignorance to know that this is an uninformed post. Are you really trying to call elementary school students "retarded" (and I use quotations because you clearly are uneducated).

Who can say what children educated totally at McNair can do? Those children will move to high school at the end of this school year. McNair is Title I, and so it goes they have a high attendance of students in Free and Reduced lunch and children where English is a second language. Frankly, I find most of this banter against the less fortunate.

I think it says a lot about most of the people here. And they would have to try very hard to sway my opinion.


Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VoiceOfReason Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This fight is still ugly at best. Yes the
> school
> > board has the right to do what they are
> > doing....they were given that right in a vote
> in
> > Fairfax County. If you bought your house after
> > that...sorry. Your children are all students of
> > Fairfax County (one of the best school systems
> in
> > the country), no matter their ethnicity.
> > Something, I bet many of you did not have.
> >
> > I still see people attacking children. The two
> > schools who seem to be the most attacked are
> those
> > from South Lakes and those from McNair, as many
> of
> > you don't want to go to South Lakes or you do
> not
> > wish to go with McNair. Let me remind
> you....these
> > are children. How dare you say one is better
> than
> > the other because of the padding in your
> wallet.
> > It is really disgusting.
> >
> > My children are affected by this change...and I
> > voted in the election giving the power to the
> > school board, as I am a long time resident of
> > Fairfax County, although I did not attend
> school
> > here. Children respond to the teacher and the
> > parents. You get out of it, what you put into
> it.
> > There are great teachers in schools with
> problems
> > and there are teachers who don't care in
> schools
> > with stellar records. Yet we all seem to
> survive.
> >
> >
> > Live and let live. IB and AP are not the do all
> > and end all of any college education. I have to
> > ask...what about the average student...or God
> > Forbid, the special education student? Clearly,
> > every parent thinks their child is
> > exceptional....but some do have children that
> need
> > help, and some have children that don't qualify
> > for help, but could do better with some. But
> who
> > cares? Your children obviously don't need their
> > boundaries stretched. You obviously have all
> the
> > answers. Maybe you are the people who should be
> > the teachers here. As you who did your homework
> > when buying your home seem to have all the
> > answers. This whole thing makes me sick.
>
> I agree with you on a couple of areas
> VoiceOfReason,
>
> I think that it is very unfair to catagorize the
> McNair Elementary children as disadvantaged or low
> income. I was surprised when I read the the VP of
> the SL PTSA (Maria Allen) referred to them as
> such.
>
> If you drive through the McNair Community, you
> will notice many expensive TH's and condo's in the
> community. There are apartments, but this is
> normal in high growth areas. It seems that both
> Herndon and South Lakes were making a big issue
> about the Title 1 status of McNair Elementary, but
> has anyone looked at how the children from McNair
> do academically by the time the graduate from
> Rachel Carson Middle School? I would expect that
> the language barrier has more to do with poor test
> scores at McNair, rather than being financially
> disadvantaged, and I would assume that after 8
> years of schooling, the language issues are no
> longer there.
>
> For me personally, and many of the people who live
> in the "East Floris"?? area, our resistance to
> being moved to SL does not have anything to do
> with the students at South Lakes.
>
> The bigger issues are things like the way in which
> the SB has conducted this study from the
> beginning, by throwing out 4 proposed alternatives
> to be commented on, even though none of those
> plans was ever going to be put in place. There is
> already much distrust with regards to the school
> board, based on prior promises that have been
> broken, and what appears to be a SB that is using
> underhanded tactics to create a situation where
> neighborhoods are forced are voicing opinions
> about the current alternative 5, not based on
> whether they truly feel that it is the best
> choice, but simply because they are not impacted
> by the changes and disruptions that will occur for
> those families that are.
>
> When you add in the fact that Alternate 5 was
> presented to the public before all public comments
> had been posted, and then realize that this same
> Alternate 5 was posted on the SL PTSA web site,
> and was being touted by SL parents at the
> Westfield meeting prior to being released to the
> public, it just adds to the distrust that we
> feel.
>
> I think that we can all agree that change is
> sometimes necessary, but when one area is
> continually targeted, while other areas are never
> touched, it just reinforces that feeling that we
> have a corrupted School board, who are willing to
> go to any means to try and cover up excesses in
> spending, poor management of our schools, as well
> as underhanded political dealings.
>
> I, and many in the Floris area have been through
> more than our fair of changes to try and help the
> SB deal with imbalances and screw ups in their
> projections over that past 10 years, and we feel
> that it is time for other communities to step up.

Because McNair opened in 2001 at the beginnings of the real estate boom. McNair doesn't have under-enrollment because modular building have been placed for 5th and 6th grades. McNair Elementary had trailers the second year they were open. They have over 900 students this year.

I'm not sure what issue you are arguing here. Reston is an older community. They've raised their children. McNair is currently raising their children.


Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please explain why McNair, which consists of
> mostly condos, town homes, and subsidized living
> units, doesn't have under-enrollment. If you
> choose not to face the issue, I can't say anything
> else. But if you have an open mind, please see
> your self. Maybe we can start a list on what can
> really address SLH's issues.
>
> "Floris,
> A big reason that Reston is underenrolled is that
> new development is mostly of the condo, urban
> kind. This does not attract families. Existing
> neighborhoods have a lot of older folks whose kids
> are grown. Our neighborhood has turned over, and
> most people send their kids to South Lakes. Many
> people have posted here about past redistrictings
> or assignments of new neighborhoods to other
> schools. This is the reason for the
> underenrollment. "
>
>
> Most of people NOT impacted by Options #5 support
> it, because they are not impacted. There are less
> people impacted, should not be the reason for RD.
> How do think that majority of people in the
> boundary study voted for NO-RD? I wonader where
> the county's listening ear is?

VoiceOfReason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer -Aldrin's on the Moon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Herndon HS propaganda is Aldrin and Armstrong .
>
> > Both seem to think the people coming from other
> > Herndon feeders are crap. My research
> indicated
> > that pre-McNair people said "Where's Armstrong?"
>
> > since all others were in the process. Nobody on
> > the Herndon area even questionned sincerely the
> > exclusion of the other astronaut .
> >
> > Just how much proof do citizens need that those
> > residences are in the wrong school by any
> > standard?
>
>
> All people need is to see your ignorance to know
> that this is an uninformed post. Are you really
> trying to call elementary school students
> "retarded" (and I use quotations because you
> clearly are uneducated).

I did not call those students retarded so stop twisting what was posted. There is a position that herndon HS would not be a balanced, successful school without either one of them as a feeder.

Has either one has a boundary change since construction? If so please specify as well as what processes included those schools.

Aldrin and Armstrong feed to the Forest Edge GT center in Reston and then proceed to Hughes middle school GT center. More students are now identified as eligible for GT centers than in past years. Forest Edge and Aldrin have contiguous boundaries. If either was severely overcrowded most people would include them in the same elementary school boundary process.

If Aldrin was 200 overcapcity would it be in a process with Hutchison or Dranesville or Mcnair? FCPS facilities used to produce the CIP with contiguous school information for each site.

Am I the only person who thinks it peculiar that NO scenario splits those schools between Herndon and South Lakes? Staff never presented a number for each of them yet they are distinct and separate entities. I so no combined numbers for other schools like portions of Mcnair and Floris. There is a reference to the possibility of just Aldrin to SL's on the SLPTA site but also a statement that Herndon would not permit any movement.

A personal attack is not warranted when facts are presented.

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most parents only KNOW the "mainstream" AP
> program. They fear change. Any change.


This insult appears frequently in pro-redistricting arguments.

Please justify your assertion that a preference for AP over IB is based generally on fear, rather than on facts and reason.

Also, please justify your assertion that this preference is derived from a general fear of change, rather than the particulars of this relatively narrow issue.

“I would be most happy to hear the explanation for
> the sudden increase in SAT scores at South Lakes
> but none have been forth coming. Does anyone know
> why they jumped this one year? Was there more SAT
> review last year? Fewer students taking the exam?
> Or something else?”
__________________________________________________________

So much of this forum has revolved around IB/AP …it might be worth examining what may be happening to children with Learning Disabilities.

During the past two years, The College Board has severely tightened its issuance of “accommodations numbers” for children with learning disabilities.
Just ask the Guidance counselors.

I know of one student, not at South Lakes High School, with an IEP, in self contained classes, (clearly qualified), who was denied accommodations for the SAT. The reason given was a “need for updated testing”. The school refused to update tests. Explanation…FCPS is not required to perform tests which has, as its sole purpose, assisting a student in their college endeavors. According to school officials, the SAT is only for college admittance, therefore they are not obligated to assist the student so that he/she might qualify for accomadations.

The parent, in this case, had resources to go private for necessary eligibility tests, which, by the way, are very costly, and met the College Board’s strict requirements. But, what would parents lacking resources do?

I’m now wondering how many other children with learning disabilities were similarly denied accommodations and therefore did not believe the SAT was even an option for them?…..or, simply choose NOT to take the test because for an anticipated poor outcome, absent accommodations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2008 10:11AM by VaDriver.

VaDriver Wrote:
> ... During the past two years, The College Board
> has severely tightened its issuance of
> “accommodations numbers” for children with
> learning disabilities.
> Just ask the Guidance counselors.
>
> I know of one student, not at South Lakes High
> School, with an IEP, in self contained classes,
> (clearly qualified), who was denied accommodations
> for the SAT. The reason given was a “need for
> updated testing”. The school refused to update
> tests. Explanation…FCPS is not required to
> perform tests which has, as its sole purpose,
> assisting a student in their college endeavors.
> According to school officials, the SAT is only for
> college admittance, therefore they are not
> obligated to assist the student so that he/she
> might qualify for accomadations.
>
> The parent, in this case, had resources to go
> private for necessary eligibility tests, which, by
> the way, are very costly, and met the College
> Board’s strict requirements. ...

By "updated tests" do you mean the student had to be re-qualified for Special Ed and special accommodations? If so, how old were the previous tests? How long had this student been in self-contained classes?

Without naming any schools or giving any data that would identify a particular student, could you describe the disability and specify the accommodations that were required?

Neen Wrote:
Smith believes that we must get students out of Westfield. Her children go to Chantilly so she believes firmly in moving students out of Chantilly, (her words, not mine.) She is highly supportive of this boundary study. She never went to boundary study meetings in the past so she knows many parents who support this change are not at the meetings and are not being heard, based on her own lack of involvement when her schools were redistricted in the past. She will ask questions about the study but supports it.

Smith can not give a valid reason why she thinks Chantilly is overcrowded. The community has NOT objected at all about overcrowding by her very own words! Navy has NO business being moved to a school further away. She is a hypocrite as is the rest of the board. My suggestion to the board is they put aside thier political agendas and really start looking at the needs of students and the impact of this study. Start all over and include ALL high schools in the involved areas. Stop paying back your political favors.

VoiceOfReason Wrote:
> ...Did you know Brett Favre went
> to high school and college in Mississippi? He
> seems to have done alright. How many of you think
> better athletic opportunity are going to help your
> child? That seems to be part of the reason for the
> boundary change.

Most of us were at least amused if not outraged that one of the stated reasons for this whole re-districting effort is that Westfield is so big that there is "fierce" competition to make the cheer squad.
"Impact on Students When Schools Are Over-Enrolled
• Competition is fierce
– Limited number of openings on the dance team and cheerleading squads.
– For example, only 20 students can compete on the cheerleading competition team.
...
• Over capacity crowds for football games raise significant safety concerns.
– For example, at the last Chantilly/Westfield game there were over 8,000 people in a stadium that was built to hold 5,000.
– Obviously, this also poses tremendous parking challenges.
• Over capacity crowds for football games raise significant safety concerns."

This a recently built school with an even newer addition for which most of the current school board members voted. Who exactly is protesting that "too many" people come out to watch a football game between neighboring high schools?

Why not allow those parents who believe a "better athletic opportunity [is] going to help your child" and is a legitimate "reason for the boundary change" to pupil place into a smaller school? In reality, it works the other way. Gifted athletes, the ones who can make the cut, want to play on better teams like Westfield's. [This is not bashing any other school - Westfield can be proud of its state-champion football team.]

If once a year the stadium is too small, I suggest moving the biggest game of the year to a bigger venue. Gyms are an even bigger problem. Potential spectators too often are not permitted to enter a "full" basketball game. In my opinion, schools gyms should be big enough to hold the stated capacity of students plus appropriate staff for a school-wide function, like a pep rally.

Neen-
Stu does not have 10 votes for this. His years of bullying the rest of the Board and the rest of the County for pursuit of his personal interests are catching up with him.

His arrogance is catching up with him just as it did with Bush

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB courses can be taken individually. People here
> are focusing with rabid teeth on the full diploma,
> which has no comparison with AP or any other
> program in the US. Get over it.

Agreed, though a number of US universities look at it differently, whether they ought to or not.

> And you know what? It can be argued that the IB
> Diploma Programme IS a magnet -- something
> unusual, special, and rigorous to draw people to
> the school. Otherwise, individual IB courses are
> available to the same achievers who take AP.

As has been discussed, this doesn't work as well as for AP due to the differences in curriculum between IB and the US standard curriculum.

> (Unless you're afraid it's a bit MORE rigorous b/c
> AP has been watered down over the years and
> doesn't have the same oversight and quality
> control... Really, how can you say AP is anything
> more than standard fare any more, given the
> numbers of kids who take these courses as Freshmen
> -- and we're not talking MENSA kids here.)
>
You are wrong on AP here. Standard fare is "regular." Of course, it might be better to call "regular" "remedial," but the majority of kids take most of their courses in the "regular" sequences.
>
> Go ahead and ignore the Fordham Study and any
> other objective information.

If you believe the Fordham Study was objective, you are wrong. Fordham changed the math grades from the grades provided to them by the group they paid to do the math study itself. The primary author Fordham paid to review the two refused to let Fordham include his name in the study report.

In the Fordham study (http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/APIB.pdf) the reviewed IB math (SL) received:

Grades
Content (60%): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .B
Rigor
(Mathematical Reasoning) (30%): . . . . . .C
Clarity (10%): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .B
Overall Grade . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .B-

AP Calc AB received

Content (60%): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .C
Rigor (Mathematical Reasoning) (30%): . . . . . .C
Clarity (10%): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .B
Overall Grade: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .C+

In the original author's study (http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/IBAP.html), the reviewed IB math (SL) received:

Clarity: B
Content: C
Rigor (Mathematical Reasoning): D

AP Calc AB received

Clarity: B
Content: C
Rigor (Mathematical Reasoning): C

In addition to the grades, here's a paragraph from the Fordham's final report that indicates just why the there are real problems with SL Math -

On the other hand, if a student intends to take more math courses at the university level, it is not clear where that student should be placed. What university mathematics courses have as their prerequisites a small amount of calculus, but no exposure to complex numbers, almost no geometry, a spotty background in trigonometry, a smattering of linear algebra, and a good bit of statistics? Perhaps the answer is “more statistics courses.”

Personal opinion, the original author's "D" was generous.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Madison and McLean are both projected to be
> overcrowded<<<
>
> I do not see how that can happen given that Vienna
> and McLean (the part that serves McLean HS) are
> almost totally built out. Where will these
> students come from?
>
Haven't you said yourself that houses in Vienna are being scraped and rebuilt? Who do you think is doing that: Aging grandmas or young families?

Just say No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen-
> Stu does not have 10 votes for this. His years of
> bullying the rest of the Board and the rest of the
> County for pursuit of his personal interests are
> catching up with him.
>
> His arrogance is catching up with him just as it
> did with Bush


Yes, if you heard the board minutes of the Jan 10 meeting, he behaved rather childish toward Raney. It just only demonstrates how stupid this study process was carried out. There already have been clashes between these SB members and highly likely more clashes as they continue with their meetings.

You are shocked that people disagree at a board meeting? Silly me, I thought that was how the process worked.

VoiceOfReason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who can say what children educated totally at
> McNair can do? Those children will move to high
> school at the end of this school year. McNair is
> Title I, and so it goes they have a high
> attendance of students in Free and Reduced lunch
> and children where English is a second language.
> Frankly, I find most of this banter against the
> less fortunate.
>
> I think it says a lot about most of the people
> here. And they would have to try very hard to sway
> my opinion.
>
Couple things on this -

1) A significant portion of McNair comes from low income areas north of the toll road. Not sure how much that affects what people see when they drive through McNair since they probably don't drive through the other sections.

2) Given mobility levels in the McNair area, it'd be hard to ascertain McNair's effects since the county doesn't provide sufficiently disaggregated data.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are shocked that people disagree at a board
> meeting? Silly me, I thought that was how the
> process worked.

Have you watched or attended many public school board meetings? Consensus is the key word. The only public disagreements are generally between members of the two political parties. It is noteworthy when Stu takes on members of his own party.

This has been going on long before that. He just insured that 2 new members got a close up of his demeanor.

His grand plan to do this with a new board which he assumed would defer to him without speaking has fallen apart.

I am sure Hone doesn't take condescending sexist belittlement very well

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Am I the only person who thinks it peculiar that
> NO scenario splits those schools between Herndon
> and South Lakes? Staff never presented a number
> for each of them yet they are distinct and
> separate entities. I so no combined numbers for
> other schools like portions of Mcnair and Floris.
> There is a reference to the possibility of just
> Aldrin to SL's on the SLPTA site but also a
> statement that Herndon would not permit any
> movement.
>
Yes, it's really strange that staff's one of the original 4 proposals didn't look just at Aldrin. I could understand it if the original 4 were all reasonable proposals, but option 2 was obviously a non-starter.

TM, please provide proof for the following statement (if I am not mistaken, you are the one who actually introduced it about 100 pages back):

"We've heard about teachers expecting entire plays and novels to be read over a weekend with tests on the entire content the following class meeting (Monday or Tuesday depending if your green or blue)."

By proof, I mean a syllabus, or Blackboard.com assignment page or confirmation from staff (not a disgruntled student) that this is indeed how coursework is taught at South Lakes.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You are shocked that people disagree at a board
> > meeting? Silly me, I thought that was how the
> > process worked.
>
> Have you watched or attended many public school
> board meetings? Consensus is the key word. The
> only public disagreements are generally between
> members of the two political parties. It is
> noteworthy when Stu takes on members of his own
> party.

Was this a typical board meeting or one discussing an emotionally charged issue for which the SB is taking a lot of incoming flak?

Party doesn't matter on the last board or this (10-2)

Stu takes everyone on that may have a differant opinion than his on any topic especially if it is a woman

Forum Reader Wrote:
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>
> • Over capacity crowds for football games raise
> significant safety concerns.
> – For example, at the last Chantilly/Westfield
> game there were over 8,000 people in a stadium
> that was built to hold 5,000.
> – Obviously, this also poses tremendous parking
> challenges.

Of all of their asinine reasons, this one won the Asinine Trophy(AT) hands down. The two schools are 2 miles away from each other, the game had obvious state championship implications, the teams were both undefeated when the game was played, Chantilly was state runner up last year, Westfield had been undefeated before it lost the regional final to Chantilly, ...

SLVerity Wrote:
> Was this a typical board meeting or one discussing
> an emotionally charged issue for which the SB is
> taking a lot of incoming flak?

"Typical" board meetings.