SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone here think that TJ kids are typical?
> I'd bet their parents would take issue with that.

Typically smart? Typically good leaders? Typically good engineers? typically tall? Typically nearsighted? or something else?

Are your kids typical?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 09:41PM by Neen.

Well, I won't reveal the secret that I know about Clarifier such that I know "Neen" was off her rocker when she called Clarifier a liar. "Neen" is very quick to judge, using very wrong information. The amusing thing is that she is trying to claim that South Lakes parents are using lies to bolster their arguments, and thinks just calling them liars makes them so, when she has done nothing but spew emotional untruths for more than 100 pages. Shouting that an entire schoolful of people are liars is the last bastion of the desperate. I can see her eyes grow enormous and fearful as she backs into her dark corner.

The sad thing is that so many other adults on this thread want so much to hate South Lakes that they will cleave to her. I joined rather late in the game, but I can see that South Lakes supporters don't blast Oakton or Chantilly or Westfield, even if they might deserve it. They are defending their school in the face of outrageous attacks, and engaging in level-headed debate with those who deserve it.

There is no longer a writing SAT2. It is part of the SAT1 now.

Neen wrote:

In FACT, our FCPS students who attend AP schools, and take the most AP courses, SEEM to write better, and think better than any IB graduate (emphasis added).

Are these real facts or your facts? Please provide data to back up the statement of fact.

Doesn't the GT/Honors/AP program smack of a separate "school within a school" scenario? I went through it here beginning in 1977, and remember not having anything to do with general ed students except during PE class and sports. Same goes for my oldest child, and many of the children of posters on this forum.

It seems to me that creating an IB magnet program/school for South Lakes would create no more of a "school within a school" distinction than in any other school with an advanced program.

Perhaps the only way to get an amply stocked AP and IB program under the same roof is to rebaseline the ideal size for a high school? Perhaps Westfield at 3100 is ideal?

OMG! Isn't that Nancy Sprague person dead?? She died some years ago. I can't believe you would drag one of her memos here to this unending thread.

I wonder what Neen did when SLVerity called her on the phone. Did Neen talk to that person or did she hang up. I would really love to know. And how did SLVerity get Neen's phone number?


Trickie

Good for you. I can read, I can do a bit of research and I posted nothing that was not the truth.

Please, feel free to post evidence that anything I have posted is incorrect. I welcome it. I do not want to be posting erroneous information. I welcome the facts.

If UVA is posting incorrect information about her son, she really should let them know. They shouldn't have him listed as an arts and science student if he is in the E school as she claims. I don't blame you for being upset if that's the case. That should be corrected, asap. I am surprised that her son has let this incorrect information stand at the UVA website for so long. Quite shocking. ;)

BTW, I have never wanted anyone to "cleave" to me. Sounds totally weird and rather creepy. I don't think my husband would be happy about so many people cleaving to me either.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would agree with you IF the mainstream program
> was in every high school and parents had the
> option of placing their child in the niche IB
> program. What is wrong is forcing a niche program
> on so many students whose parents would much
> prefer a mainstream American program.

I think that we would be splitting needlessly fine hairs if we are complaining about being stuck with an IB curriculum just because of the location of our residence. We should take a look at other educational problems that bedevil other jurisdictions (DC) and count our blessings.

Apart from the above general observation, which is not meant to encourage mere complacency with whatever curriculum up with which we wind, the IB program is at least as competent as AP.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 05:28AM by Berdhuis.

The real question is why is Neen doing research on a college website about one of the poster's sons, and why is she snooping into his high school record. Are high school course records public. Can anyone look up the transcripts of any student? Didn't think so. So Neen used some other means to investigate the courses taken by Clarifier's son. Creepy indeed.

Tricki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OMG! Isn't that Nancy Sprague person dead?? She
> died some years ago. I can't believe you would
> drag one of her memos here to this unending
> thread.
>
> I wonder what Neen did when SLVerity called her on
> the phone. Did Neen talk to that person or did
> she hang up. I would really love to know. And
> how did SLVerity get Neen's phone number?
>
>
> Trickie

Like most people, I have caller ID. I didn't answer her call.
I don't know how she got my number. Rather creepy, huh? Who would bother to do that?

Good catch Verity. For someone so enamored of the facts, Neen does not seem to be following her own standards. Where is your evidence of fact?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
In fact,
> our FCPS students who attend AP schools, and take
> the most AP courses, seem to write better, and
> think better than any IB graduate.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Like most people, I have caller ID. I didn't
> answer her call.
> I don't know how she got my number. Rather
> creepy, huh? Who would bother to do that?

So Verity knows who you are and you apparently know who he/she is. BFD

BTW, Tricki, you are NOT.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On the magnet issue, IB should always & only
> ever
> > have been a magnet program in the US. I do
> think
> > the program has real value, it probably would
> have
> > been perfect for me. However, requiring that
> kids
> > take a non-standard curriculum, no matter how
> > good, by the happenstance of their residence is
> > simply wrong. It's simply not the standard
> > program of studies in the US. The misalignment
> > with the regular HS program makes it difficult
> for
> > kids can play up/down where it makes sense for
> > them, and the misalignment with the US standard
> > college level curriculum for
> > math/science/engineering types makes for
> problems
> > when they go on.
>
> If we wanted to have just one standard curriculum,
> I would agree with you. But can two standards
> exist, complementing each other? I say it can be
> so, and think that it is necessary for our society
> to have that breadth of education.

If kids could be bussed to whichever they desired (whether to magnets or paired AP/IB schools) or if home schools ran both curricula, I'd agree with you. However, that's not how Fairfax has set it up. For Fairfax families, there's essentially no choice. Unless they set up their own transportation, what they get is strictly dependent on where they live.

My oldest kid lived in APland. By happenstance of redistricting, my younger kids will live in IBland. My oldest kid is a math/science type. He belongs in APland and gets to get bussed there. My younger kids, if they also happen to be math/science types, belong in APland. But, unless I arrange their transportation (meaning drive them every day for 4 years), they have to go to IBland. How fair is that?

Neen's Conscience Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real question is why is Neen doing research on
> a college website about one of the poster's sons,
> and why is she snooping into his high school
> record. Are high school course records public.
> Can anyone look up the transcripts of any student?
> Didn't think so. So Neen used some other means
> to investigate the courses taken by Clarifier's
> son. Creepy indeed.

I admit that I looked up her son on the UVA website. Their people search is on their home page. It doesn't take a lot of skill or research. Of course I never looked her son's high school record! How would I? Only staff and school board can do that. She posted the information about her son, what he took in high school and what he took at UVA. She used her son to 'prove' that IB math prepares students better for engineering than AP math does. The entire story didn't ring true. So I checked. Her son is NOT in the E school. She claimed he was an engineering student in engineering math classes. According to UVA he is not even in the engineering school. But what do they know?

If Clarifier hadn't used her so to prove a point that didn't exist, I wouldn't have called her on. But she did. So I did.

Dear Westfield Dad,

I hope you will at least give South Lakes a good look. You might change your mind. Just think of the great debates you will have with the parents! You have had much practice here.

Neen's Conscience Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Like most people, I have caller ID. I didn't
> > answer her call.
> > I don't know how she got my number. Rather
> > creepy, huh? Who would bother to do that?
>
> So Verity knows who you are and you apparently
know who he/she is. BFD

Exactly. Big whoop. The difference is that I don't send her nastygrams and I don't call her home. Not that I feel at all special, since she's done the same to others here. One of the SL's nasties called a poster at home, at 7:30 on Sunday morning to fuss at them about what they had posted here!

Like I said, no boundaries. And these goons expect people to send their children to their school! Fat chance. Not with parental examples like them.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The entire story didn't ring true. So
> I checked. Her son is NOT in the E school. She
> claimed he was an engineering student in
> engineering math classes. According to UVA he is
> not even in the engineering school.

Did it occur to you that he may have changed majors? It happens all the time. Facts can be a Tricki thing!

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Westfield Dad,
>
> I hope you will at least give South Lakes a good
> look. You might change your mind. Just think of
> the great debates you will have with the parents!
> You have had much practice here.

Hahahaha.........your PTSA has made it more than clear that there will be NO debates about IB. Just ask Clarifier.

Neen's Conscience Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> The entire story didn't ring true. So
> > I checked. Her son is NOT in the E school.
> She
> > claimed he was an engineering student in
> > engineering math classes. According to UVA he
> is
> > not even in the engineering school.
>
> Did it occur to you that he may have changed
> majors? It happens all the time. Facts can be a
> Tricki thing!

OH, are you saying that his math background prohibited him from competing in the E school? That I would be inclined to believe. Without a strong AP math program, it would be very difficult to make it in engineering.

I don't know what Verity has said in private or whether what you say is true, but he/she has been very civil on this forum. You on the other hand...not so nice.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My oldest kid lived in APland. By happenstance of
> redistricting, my younger kids will live in
> IBland. My oldest kid is a math/science type. He
> belongs in APland and gets to get bussed there. My
> younger kids, if they also happen to be
> math/science types, belong in APland. But,
> unless I arrange their transportation (meaning
> drive them every day for 4 years), they have to go
> to IBland. How fair is that?

It's not fair, and I sympathize. Just for argument's sake, I will exclude the redistricting aspect of your scenario and focus on the IB mismatch vis-a-vis your children. I now ask, is it fair that your children are subjected to learning non-Saxon math? Is it fair that your children were subjected to learning English in a less than best curriculum?

My point is this, that our children are being educated in a less than perfectly matched environment from the very beginning in Grade 1, and it's that way all the way through Grade 12 - even in APland. I really see no great distinction between AP and IB when looking through this lense. Your thought?

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > WestfieldDad Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > On the magnet issue, IB should always & only
> > ever
> > > have been a magnet program in the US. I do
> > think
> > > the program has real value, it probably would
> > have
> > > been perfect for me. However, requiring that
> > kids
> > > take a non-standard curriculum, no matter how
> > > good, by the happenstance of their residence
> is
> > > simply wrong. It's simply not the standard
> > > program of studies in the US. The
> misalignment
> > > with the regular HS program makes it
> difficult
> > for
> > > kids can play up/down where it makes sense
> for
> > > them, and the misalignment with the US
> standard
> > > college level curriculum for
> > > math/science/engineering types makes for
> > problems
> > > when they go on.
> >
> > If we wanted to have just one standard
> curriculum,
> > I would agree with you. But can two standards
> > exist, complementing each other? I say it can
> be
> > so, and think that it is necessary for our
> society
> > to have that breadth of education.
>
> If kids could be bussed to whichever they desired
> (whether to magnets or paired AP/IB schools) or if
> home schools ran both curricula, I'd agree with
> you. However, that's not how Fairfax has set it
> up. For Fairfax families, there's essentially no
> choice. Unless they set up their own
> transportation, what they get is strictly
> dependent on where they live.
>
> My oldest kid lived in APland. By happenstance of
> redistricting, my younger kids will live in
> IBland. My oldest kid is a math/science type. He
> belongs in APland and gets to get bussed there. My
> younger kids, if they also happen to be
> math/science types, belong in APland. But,
> unless I arrange their transportation (meaning
> drive them every day for 4 years), they have to go
> to IBland. How fair is that?

If you look at fcps site, most IB schools perform poorly when it comes to SAT as compared to AP. Maybe IB standards are lower... All the top rated schools are AP schools. Why dont they just dump IB and provide AP to all schools. That would level the playing field.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Verity - It's my understanding that anyone can
> > take an AP test. There's no requirement that
> the
> > test takers must have taken the AP course. So,
> IB
> > kids could have taken those AP tests.
> >
>
> Well, I did not personally call each and every
> school, and will leave that to more wonkish types
> here if they want to spend the time, but I did
> check with my alma mater today (Richmond area) and
> they do indeed offer AP courses in every test that
> was given. They indicated that was the case in
> the other IB schools in their jurisdiction, and
> also it was their understanding that all of the
> Richmond area schools offering IB also offered AP.
> So, I deduce, in my humble opinion - not fact,
> that is probably the case for the schools where
> many, many tests are being given. You'll notice
> that in Fairfax, Robinson is the only school
> reporting a significant number of AP tests, and
> they also have AP classes.

Sorry, I misunderstood your prior post.

Based on what you say, as far as I'm concerned, it looks like our friends in Richmond have the right approach on IB. If a school/school system is going to offer IB, it ought not be the only choice available at the default choice for the kids. IB magnets, fine, paired area-based schools, fine, bus kids wherever they want to go, fine, AP only, fine.

Fairfax's idiotic insistence on IB or AP only by high school for default high schools, not fine at all.

>
> Per your last post, I maintain that incoming
> parents to South Lakes, including those with
> younger children already in the pyramid, have a
> lot of clout to make the changes that they want at
> the school. They also will have a very receptive
> principal. I think that this debate here has
> perfectly highlighted the need to continue the
> discussion, and that it is an important one. I
> also agree with Berduis that these two programs
> can coexist in our County.
>

My problem is that the County has said they can't coexist at default schools.

>
> Thank you for your comments, and particularly your
> input regarding Montgomery County.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> OH, are you saying that his math background
> prohibited him from competing in the E school?
> That I would be inclined to believe. Without a
> strong AP math program, it would be very difficult
> to make it in engineering.

I did not say that, but you seem to be implying that you know why he transferred out. You certainly know a lot about him. So now Engineering is the only major that a smart kid can choose? I guess all of the pre-med students at UVa might disagree, or the aspiring lawyers, physicists, historians, speech pathologists, or basket-weavers. Perhaps not everyone aspires to be an engineer. My spouse was an engineer and changed careers because he/she found it boring.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Westfield Dad,
>
> I hope you will at least give South Lakes a good
> look. You might change your mind. Just think of
> the great debates you will have with the parents!
> You have had much practice here.


SL could have the greatest facilites, but without the AP program it will always be a forced choice of last resort. If a good college is the ultimate goal, No point in putting students through 4 years of HS without enrolling them in AP

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My problem is that the County has said they can't
> coexist at default schools.

Despite what you have read here, perhaps that may be changing. We can hope and I think it is parents like you who will make it so.

Bonne nuit a tous!

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't the GT/Honors/AP program smack of a
> separate "school within a school" scenario? I went
> through it here beginning in 1977, and remember
> not having anything to do with general ed students
> except during PE class and sports. Same goes for
> my oldest child, and many of the children of
> posters on this forum.
>

Of course it's a school within a school. Tracking became a bad word so we invented "GT". And since GT is getting to be a bad acronym, we are in the process of inventing a new euphemism (I don't remember this week's).

On the Honors/AP program, however, it's a bit easier for multi-track kids to fit higher/lower level classes into their schedules since there's better alignment between the US standard "regular" classes curriculum and the Honors/AP classes, and the schools have more experience with making it work.

>
> It seems to me that creating an IB magnet
> program/school for South Lakes would create no
> more of a "school within a school" distinction
> than in any other school with an advanced
> program.
>
> Perhaps the only way to get an amply stocked AP
> and IB program under the same roof is to
> rebaseline the ideal size for a high school?
> Perhaps Westfield at 3100 is ideal?

It's certainly worked for my kid.

To Neen's Conscience,

Please stop using my name in your posts like I am some sort of wacko sneaky parent posting about this topic. The name Trickie has no real significance except for it was the name of one of my pets who is now in Heaven.

I mean, I am a parent but I am just reading this thread. I am mnot getting all worked up about it like you guys talking about AP and IB stuff and SAT scores. Actually I post as Trickie usually but I forgot my password so my laptop won't let me use Trickie so I leave the final E off. So far, you have used my name twice like I am some kinda sneak and I am not.
Thanks.

Trickie

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> It's not fair, and I sympathize. Just for
> argument's sake, I will exclude the redistricting
> aspect of your scenario and focus on the IB
> mismatch vis-a-vis your children. I now ask, is it
> fair that your children are subjected to learning
> non-Saxon math?

It was/is pretty hard putting up with the math curriculum the district seems to insist on.

> Is it fair that your children were
> subjected to learning English in a less than best
> curriculum?
>
I didn't say it wasn't the best, but it might be OK. Also IB does seem to be pretty good. On the other hand, neither hold a candle to the program I had when I was a kid was. Of course, some of the parents were sufficiently horrified at the work load that they eventually managed to drive the department head out.
>
> My point is this, that our children are being
> educated in a less than perfectly matched
> environment from the very beginning in Grade 1,
> and it's that way all the way through Grade 12 -
> even in APland. I really see no great distinction
> between AP and IB when looking through this lense.
> Your thought?

On AP/IB, there is a real difference due to the math difference in math itself and in physics. Essentially the difference between physics for science majors and physics for Renaissance types.

IB_Lowers_scores Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If you look at fcps site, most IB schools perform
> poorly when it comes to SAT as compared to AP.
> Maybe IB standards are lower... All the top rated
> schools are AP schools. Why dont they just dump IB
> and provide AP to all schools. That would level
> the playing field.

If that is true, then please explain why South Lakes scored higher than Herndon on the 2007 SAT, and only a few points behind Westfield? I'd say they are doing well considering the percent FRM at each school.

South Lakes 1596 IB (33%FRM)
Herndon 1591 AP (18%FRM)
Westfield 1616 AP (11%FRM)
Attachments:

I am confused by the claim that IB better prepares a student to pursue a college degree in the humanities.

It may be that some on this forum have used the “humanities” as a means to suggest that IB is not as strong a preparation in the natural sciences and mathematics as AP.

I understand the humanities to include philosophy, theology, literature, history, visual and performing arts, modern and ancient languages.

Other than modern language, and maybe literature, the IB course work reveals little in it to prepare a student to pursue a degree in philosophy, theology, history, visual or performing art or the social sciences

I would hope that U.S. diplomats would have a more thorough grounding in US history and government than IB provides. The shortcomings of the US history and US government elements of the IB program I have described previously.

So long as the FCPS makes the choice between AP and IB binary for each high school and severely limits AP courses at IB schools, I have little choice but to advocate for the replacement of IB at SL for AP as the program that will benefit the greatest number of students at the lowest cost.

I am also prepared to engage in a throughly informed debate of the merits before the elementary school parents of the SL pyramid and be bound by a plebiscite of those parents.

If the advocates of IB are so confident of the merits of the choice made for SL by Gibson and the staff, they should not hesitate to agree to such a plebiscite



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 11:28PM by Thomas More.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't the GT/Honors/AP program smack of a
> separate "school within a school" scenario?

That's how IB was sold to the white parents in IB schools. Nancy Sprague told us that it would give those kids their own separate program, with their own separate classes. She said that the staff hoped that it would stem the tide of white flight in those schools with high minority populations. It does not appear to have been successful since those schools continue to remain under enrolled.

In AP schools many students take only one or two AP classes each year. Their other classes are with everyone in the school. I think IB is more the whole school within a school since IB students must take so many IB classes with the program. AP students need not take any particular AP class. They can pick and choose. IB is more regimented, with required courses each year.

Thomas - you are double spacing your posts, great job leave room for teacher corrections.

SLV - last I recall the (SL don't need no more of them) free lunchers and ESOLers aren't taking the SATs, they are for the college bound group. For a more appropriate comparison take a look at the SOLs, everyone takes those. Nice try.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am confused by the claim that IB better prepares
> a student to pursue a college degree in the
> humanities.
>
> It may be that some on this forum have used the
> “humanities” as a means to suggest that IB is not
> as strong a preparation in the natural sciences
> and mathematics as AP.
>
> I understand the humanities to include philosophy,
> theology, history, visual and performing arts,
> modern and ancient languages.
>
> Other than modern language, and maybe literature,
> the IB course work reveals little in it to prepare
> a student to pursue a degree in philosophy,
> theology, history, visual or performing art or the
> social sciences
>
> I would hope that U.S. diplomats would have a more
> thorough grounding in US history and government
> than IB provides. The shortcomings of the US
> history and US government elements of the IB
> program I have described previously.
>
> So long as the FCPS makes the choice between AP
> and IB binary for each high school and severely
> limits AP courses at IB schools, I have little
> choice but to advocate for the replacement of IB
> at SL for AP as the program that will benefit the
> greatest number of students at the lowest cost.
>
> I am also prepared to engage in a throughly
> informed debate of the merits before the
> elementary school parents of the SL pyramid and be
> bound by a plebiscite of those parents.
>
> If the advocates of IB are so confident of the
> merits of the choice made for SL by Gibson and the
> staff, they should not hesitate to agree to such a
> plebiscite

Good luck with that. When did FCPS EVER allow a vote of the parents to determine anything that happens in our schools?

It should be up to the community what the primary educational program is in any school, but I have never known that to happen in FCPS. Have you? Staff does what they 'feel' is right and the community can take it, or try to find the money to send their children to private school.

I would also like to see a plebiscite on "Everyday Math" among our elementary schools.

Neen's Conscience Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > OH, are you saying that his math background
> > prohibited him from competing in the E school?
> > That I would be inclined to believe. Without a
> > strong AP math program, it would be very
> difficult
> > to make it in engineering.

I thought you said Clarifier's son went to TJ, an AP school?

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Doesn't the GT/Honors/AP program smack of a
> > separate "school within a school" scenario? I
> went
> > through it here beginning in 1977, and remember
> > not having anything to do with general ed
> students
> > except during PE class and sports. Same goes
> for
> > my oldest child, and many of the children of
> > posters on this forum.
> >
>
> Of course it's a school within a school. Tracking
> became a bad word so we invented "GT". And since
> GT is getting to be a bad acronym, we are in the
> process of inventing a new euphemism (I don't
> remember this week's).
>
The new term to disguise smart kids, so that others don't feel bad, is advanced academic programs. I wonder how they will disguise quarterbacks so that those who don't make the team won't feel bad? Or do only smart kids need to be hidden from others?

Tricki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Neen's Conscience,
>
> Please stop using my name in your posts like I am
> some sort of wacko sneaky parent posting about
> this topic. The name Trickie has no real
> significance except for it was the name of one of
> my pets who is now in Heaven.
>
> I mean, I am a parent but I am just reading this
> thread. I am mnot getting all worked up about it
> like you guys talking about AP and IB stuff and
> SAT scores. Actually I post as Trickie usually
> but I forgot my password so my laptop won't let me
> use Trickie so I leave the final E off. So far,
> you have used my name twice like I am some kinda
> sneak and I am not.
> Thanks.
>
> Trickie


Trickie, I think that the mental midget thinks we are one and the same poster. Sigh...............

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> SLV - last I recall the (SL don't need no more of
> them) free lunchers and ESOLers aren't taking the
> SATs, they are for the college bound group. For a
> more appropriate comparison take a look at the
> SOLs, everyone takes those. Nice try.

But Word, I thought everyone here is saying that AP helps FRM kids. Are you saying that they don't take the SATs? BTW, FRM kids do actually take the SAT, though you might not know that being from Oakton. I personally know many South Lakes FRM kids who took the SAT. Are you trying to say that of the majority of FRM kids who pass the SOLs, none will be taking the SAT? You must not think much of the disadvantaged kids in our area.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2008 11:59AM by SLVerity.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Good luck with that. When did FCPS EVER allow a
> vote of the parents to determine anything that
> happens in our schools?

Nope

> It should be up to the community what the primary
> educational program is in any school, but I have
> never known that to happen in FCPS. Have you?

No, except for screening committees making recommendations on principals.

> I would also like to see a plebiscite on "Everyday
> Math" among our elementary schools.

And "whole language"

Neen's Conscience Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> I thought you said Clarifier's son went to TJ, an
> AP school?

You are correct. According to her, he did go to TJ, where he did not take the strong math program. He was not well prepared for engineering because he took the easy calculus program, the one the humanities kids take because TJ kids must take a calculus class to graduate with a TJ diploma. Those students who are math, science and engineering students at TJ take AP calculus BC during sophomore or junior year followed by a year or two of GMU math classes beyond that. Those who are not math and engineering types take the easier AP calculus AB in senior year. I have no clue why someone be in that track at TJ would think they were candidates for an engineering program. I have never heard of any student who took AP calculus AB at TJ enrolling in an engineering program because they are not strong math students and have not taken the necessary math courses. It just wouldn't make sense to avoid the stronger math courses at TJ and then try to major in engineering in college. Just another reason why her story made no sense. You will have to ask Clarifier to clarify, if you want an explanation that makes sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2008 11:44PM by Neen.

I'm going to double space like Thomas...

AP only helps kids that take AP classes.

Everyone one takes SOLs - look at the failure rates, as you know anyone who is paying attention in class will pass. It's a good indication of how many kids at a school couldn't care less. Free Lunchers and ESOLers who care about themselves will pass, no problem - just like non FRM.

Free Lunchers and ESOLers take the SAT, and some do well. I'm not saying otherwise.

Bottom line - SOL Failure Rates will tell you how many kids couldn't care less about their education. And these individuals consume teacher resources (because we need them to pass NCLB). Teacher resources come at the expense of the average student, not the exceptional one in AP.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> word Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > SLV - last I recall the (SL don't need no more
> of
> > them) free lunchers and ESOLers aren't taking
> the
> > SATs, they are for the college bound group. For
> a
> > more appropriate comparison take a look at the
> > SOLs, everyone takes those. Nice try.
>
> But Word, I thought everyone here is saying that
> AP helps FRM kids. Are you saying that they don't
> take the SOLs? BTW, FRM kids do actually take the
> SAT, though you might not know that being from
> Oakton. I personally know many South Lakes FRM
> kids who took the SAT. Are you trying to say that
> of the majority of FRM kids who pass the SOLs,
> none will be taking the SAT? You must not think
> much of the disadvantaged kids in our area.

Yes, many poor Asian kids take the SAT and need every AP college credit they can get when they enroll in college.

How many students at South Lakes took the SAT last year? Why do you think the scores jumped, just that one year?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen's Conscience Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> > I thought you said Clarifier's son went to TJ,
> an
> > AP school?
>
> You are correct. According to her, he did go to
> TJ, where he did not take the strong math program.
> He was not well prepared for engineering because
> he took the easy calculus program, the one the
> humanities kids take because TJ kids must take a
> calculus class to graduate with a TJ diploma.
> Those students who are math, science and
> engineering students at TJ take AP calculus BC
> during sophomore or junior year followed by a year
> or two of GMU math classes beyond that. Those who
> are not math and engineering types take the easier
> AP calculus AB in senior year. I have no clue why
> someone be in that track at TJ would think they
> were candidates for an engineering program. I have
> never heard of any student who took AP calculus AB
> at TJ enrolling in an engineering program because
> they are not strong math students and have not
> taken the necessary math courses. It just wouldn't
> make sense to avoid the stronger math courses at
> TJ and then try to major in engineering in
> college. Just another reason why her story made
> no sense. You will have to ask Clarifier to
> clarify, if you want an explanation that makes
> sense.

The more you try to defend, the more of a weirdo you become - a weirdo crossing boundaries and making a lot of assumptions about a fellow-poster's child.

Just what gives you the right to decide who is and is not qualified for an engineering program? I would put a lot more faith in the admissions office than I would in you and your biased views.

Nah, Neen, you write a lot better than I do! I am sort of a slacker! LOL.

Hugs, Trickie

>>>he more you try to defend, the more of a weirdo you become - a weirdo crossing boundaries and making a lot of assumptions about a fellow-poster's child.

Just what gives you the right to decide who is and is not qualified for an engineering program? I would put a lot more faith in the admissions office than I would in you and your biased views.<<<

I'm not defending anything. You asked. I answered. I made NO assumptions. She posted the information about her son. Then her little alter egos added to her story.

Apparently I do know a bit more than the admissions office since, according to posters here, the boy is no longer in the engineering school. I told you how it works at TJ. Engineering students don't end high school having only gone as far as AP calculus AP. Your mileage may vary.

Shrugs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 12:31AM by Neen.

Have you all heard that South Lakes has finally decided to add an AP course? Did they choose the obvious, AP calculus, or AP Government or AP US history?

NO! They carefully researched it and decided they would offer AP Human Geography! One of the silliest, and easiest, AP courses available! My son took the AP exam for that class without even knowing what it was. He said, correctly, "how hard could it be"? He got a 5 on the exam, the top score, but UVA, among other universities, gives no credit for the course.
http://www.virginia.edu/registrar/records/01ugradrec/chapter2/uchap2-9.1.html#chart

Is this silly course offered at an other FCPS school?

Why would South Lakes choose a geography/sociology course for its ONLY AP class? Because they had a teacher who wanted to teach it? It's her favorite class? I can't imagine any other reason.

Surely their principal knows this course is a waste. Doesn't he?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 12:38AM by Neen.

Dear Parents,

I have a suggestion for you. A friend of mine did this when trying to decide whether to send her son to South Lakes, PVI, Madison, or OConnell. Call the admissions offices at VT, UVA, and WM. Ask them what they think about South Lakes. Purely annecdotal, but they told my friend that the students they see out of South Lakes are, on a whole, better prepared, more mature, and had had greater experiences than those coming from the other three schools mentioned. I know most of you will refute this and may not believe that it happened, but call them for yourself.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you all heard that South Lakes has finally
> decided to add an AP course? Did they choose the
> obvious, AP calculus, or AP Government or AP US
> history?
>
> NO! They carefully researched it and decided they
> would offer AP Human Geography! One of the
> silliest, and easiest, AP courses available! My
> son took the AP exam for that class without even
> knowing what it was. He said, correctly, "how
> hard could it be"? He got a 5 on the exam, the
> top score, but UVA, among other universities,
> gives no credit for the course.
> http://www.virginia.edu/registrar/records/01ugradr
> ec/chapter2/uchap2-9.1.html#chart
>
> Is this silly course offered at an other FCPS
> school?
>
> Why would South Lakes choose a geography/sociology
> course for its ONLY AP class? Because they had a
> teacher who wanted to teach it? It's her favorite
> class? I can't imagine any other reason.
>
> Surely their principal knows this course is a
> waste. Doesn't he?


Because IB classes already cover US Government (Pre-IB US Government), US History (History of the Americas, 20th Century Topics), and Calculus (Math Methods).

Oh please, History of the Americas is NOT US history and 9th grade pre IB government is NOT the same as AP US history. Nor is human geography the same as calculus. It's a ridiculous course that even our state colleges don't recognize as worthwhile.

Human Geography will not persuade new parents that South Lakes will offer any real AP courses that they want their children to take. It's a terrible choice for their first AP class. What are they thinking? Don't the students at South Lakes deserve even ONE, REAL, AP class? Why do the South Lakes students get screwed over and over?

callthem Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Parents,
>
> I have a suggestion for you. A friend of mine did
> this when trying to decide whether to send her son
> to South Lakes, PVI, Madison, or OConnell. Call
> the admissions offices at VT, UVA, and WM. Ask
> them what they think about South Lakes. Purely
> annecdotal, but they told my friend that the
> students they see out of South Lakes are, on a
> whole, better prepared, more mature, and had had
> greater experiences than those coming from the
> other three schools mentioned. I know most of you
> will refute this and may not believe that it
> happened, but call them for yourself.

No admissions officer would ever say that. She would say the truth, it depends on the student, what courses they've taken, and who they are.

What are 'greater experiences'? More trips to exotic countries? I seriously doubt that any admission officer said any high school produces more mature students with more experiences.

Since admission officers rarely meet students, how would they judge their maturity and their experiences?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB_Lowers_scores Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > If you look at fcps site, most IB schools
> perform
> > poorly when it comes to SAT as compared to AP.
> > Maybe IB standards are lower... All the top
> rated
> > schools are AP schools. Why dont they just dump
> IB
> > and provide AP to all schools. That would level
> > the playing field.
>
> If that is true, then please explain why South
> Lakes scored higher than Herndon on the 2007 SAT,
> and only a few points behind Westfield? I'd say
> they are doing well considering the percent FRM at
> each school.
>
> South Lakes 1596 IB (33%FRM)
> Herndon 1591 AP (18%FRM)
> Westfield 1616 AP (11%FRM)


Then is it necessary to redistrict after all?

Many people are still trying to figure out why we must have redistricting. The only real reason we've been given is so that south lakes students can have more elective classes, like Human geography and advanced drama.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many people are still trying to figure out why we
> must have redistricting. The only real reason
> we've been given is so that south lakes students
> can have more elective classes, like Human
> geography and advanced drama.


Yes I am still baffled now that SL is thinking of Human Geography for an AP course.

Call the colleges yourself. Dont tell them where you are from or any sort of agenda. IT HAPPENED. They know the schools on a whole they know the kids who come from them. Im sure its possible for them to get an idea of the kids, especially the ones who are the specialists for the schools in question. Why dont you try it and see what they say rather than completely disregarding an event you have no idea about.

Why would you say that I know nothing about talking to college admissions officers?

I have no problem if people want to call and ask admissions officer which are the best schools in FC. I just doubt that any admissions officer would say that any school produces more mature students. Schools don't do that, families do. But hey, if people want to call and ask, they definitely should do that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 01:45AM by Neen.

>>>Yes I am still baffled now that SL is thinking of Human Geography for an AP course.<<<

More than thinking about it. The principal says it will be offered in the fall because staff has chosen it. Strangely, no parents are on the curriculum committee at South Lakes. It's no wonder that they have no AP classes and when they finally get one, they get Human Geography, since they let staff decide what they will teach with no input from the parents. Apparently the principal doesn't have input either, he lets staff decide what courses will be offered. I guess they think that Human Geography is more fun to teach. No parent would chose it for their school's only AP class. Nor am I aware of any other school in the county that has chosen it.

In fairness to the staff, since parents and the principal aren't involved in curriculum decisions, perhaps they don't realize what a strange choice they have made.

What a crazy way to run a school!

I take it back, I was incorrect. We have TWO schools in FCPS that offer Human Geography. (I wonder if there is an animal geography?) Herndon and West Springfield offered it last year, along with 20 other AP courses at Herndon and 24 at Springfield.

http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/AP%20Courses.pdf

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Yes I am still baffled now that SL is thinking
> of Human Geography for an AP course.<<<
>
> More than thinking about it. The principal says
> it will be offered in the fall because staff has
> chosen it. Strangely, no parents are on the
> curriculum committee at South Lakes. It's no
> wonder that they have no AP classes and when they
> finally get one, they get Human Geography, since
> they let staff decide what they will teach with no
> input from the parents. Apparently the principal
> doesn't have input either, he lets staff decide
> what courses will be offered. I guess they think
> that Human Geography is more fun to teach. No
> parent would chose it for their school's only AP
> class. Nor am I aware of any other school in the
> county that has chosen it.
>
> In fairness to the staff, since parents and the
> principal aren't involved in curriculum decisions,
> perhaps they don't realize what a strange choice
> they have made.
>
> What a crazy way to run a school!


Is that also an attempt to thwart pupil placement out so that they have an AP course called Human Geography? The very word, AP course available at the school so that pupil placements are denied because there is an AP course there? Yes, certainly nuts to run a school especially when there is no input from the parents, etc..

Neen,
Can you post a source that we can quote that the one and only AP course South Lakes has decided to offer next year is Human Geography?

Offering AP Government to pre-IB tenth graders would make sense because it can satisfy an SOL-tested requirement, but Human Geography?

Tricki Wrote:
> OMG! Isn't that Nancy Sprague person dead?? She
> died some years ago. I can't believe you would
> drag one of her memos here to this unending
> thread. ...

Do you have a more current similar FCPS document that you can cite and quote? Or does this remain the most recent official FCPS comparison of what is actually taught in AP and IB courses? As I wrote, "Here is an eight-year old memo from Nancy Sprague, then FCPS Asst Sup for Instruction (or some such title) to the then-Woodson principal and the then-Cluster 3 Director. It was written to aid the Woodson committee reviewing the IB-AP issue. More current information would be helpful if anyone can post it in total with source cited."

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone one takes SOLs - look at the failure
> rates, as you know anyone who is paying attention
> in class will pass. It's a good indication of how
> many kids at a school couldn't care less. Free
> Lunchers and ESOLers who care about themselves
> will pass, no problem - just like non FRM.

Word, I'll disagree with you on that one. Specifically, at McNair ES there is a high failure rate in the Reading (2002 Standard) due to many recent immigrant families not having learned English well. It takes them a few more years to square that away, and it seems to be working well as these children pass through Rachel Carson MS. You cannot attribute a 32% failure rate (6th grade) on this test to laziness on the part of FRM students (of which we were recipients ourselves) and ESOL students.

I can estimate a 50% increase in the pass rate for those former McNair children in the 8th grade, compared to how they did in the 6th grade. I'll bet the rate of pass increases as they go through high school, too.

IBVeritas Wrote:
> I think we need to focus on IB courses themselves
> and not on the IB diploma. ... The real
> comparison is between IB courses and AP courses
> individually, (though IB has the advantage of
> having teachers work together among different
> courses so they are not siloed).
>
> ... if any discussion about AP vs IB is done,
> diplomas should be left out of it. It's an
> aspirational goal that should be encouraged and
> that sets it apart from AP, but it isn't a fair
> comparison.
>
> ... SLHS should have the same courses
> available as other schools, and kids should not be
> shut out of available courses at higher rates than
> they are at other schools -- which can only happen
> when it has a population of kids that can support
> it.

I agree that AP and IB courses should be compared individually, one by one. What is the difference between IB SL French, IB HL French, and AP French? What is actually taught, and how? The only such official comparison that I found is the one I posted from November 1999. Does anyone have anything more current? Not anecdotal stories (which will vary teacher by teacher) but an official FCPS comparison?
-----------
To understand IB, you must understand the IB Diploma Programme (DP), which must be the focus of any IB high school: “Without a doubt, the all-important reason for teaching the IB is the DP and the benefits that are to be derived from it by diploma students. ... It must be unquestionably shown that any certificate courses they may be intending to offer are subordinate to their DP, and will be specifically for students who are not intellectually or academically able to undertake the full diploma” [Goodban, John. “Quality assurance and maintenance of the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme.” Implementing the IB Diploma Programme: A Practical Manual for Principals, IB Coordinators, Heads of Department and Teachers. Cambridge: University Press. 2004. p. 17].

Diploma Candidates comprise a special group of highly organized and highly motivated students. The group has a special full-time staff member just to oversee their academic needs, and the entire school’s master schedule MUST revolve around the academic requirements of the few DP students whose courses MUST be taught, even if less than a handful of students sign up for them. Since South Lakes, like all FCPS high schools, is strapped for teaching positions, the classes of other SL students often face elimination or overcrowding. Perhaps worse, existing classes are harmed when the school tries to force combined courses in which one teacher tries to teach both courses simultaneously in the same room.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I take it back, I was incorrect. We have TWO
> schools in FCPS that offer Human Geography. (I
> wonder if there is an animal geography?) Herndon
> and West Springfield offered it last year, along
> with 20 other AP courses at Herndon and 24 at
> Springfield.
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/AP%20Courses
> .pdf


FWIW, Human Geography is an awesome course even if it does not fulfull an SOL reqirement! My son and daughter both took this course at West Springfield and it is on par with many college-level anthropology courses. The DC area affords them access to a lot of guest speakers and resources from places like the Smithsonian and CIA which really brings this course to life.

Anyone can offer AP courses in English, math, science and foreign language, but these specialty courses are, in my opinion, what makes the program worthwhile.

link to a teacher syllabus on Human Geography:
http://teacherweb.ftl.pinecrest.edu/snyderd/APHG/syllabus.htm

after a quick review of unit vi it seems that students at West Springfield enrolled in AP Human Geography should be able to come up with a boundary plan for multiple schools. They are not involved in the change. That ceratinly would be an interesting exercise - excell worksheets, maps, transportation task force info and a thesis is born.

I want a line item cost comparison of IB and AP per school - historical and budget that includes any staff allocated after budget detail sheets as well as training. Both are decent but if one is less costly than the other what is the point? It's BS that the best students get a keeper. What a cushy job.

I like IB in a smaller school system that doesn't have the curriculum resource central staff found in FCPS. You buy a program. I guess Matthews called it Supertest because the outside testing and required training in writing etc as well as forced coordination of curriculum - horizontal and vertical articulation -get FCPS lifers off their duffs into the role of instructional leaders.

Now FCPS has 8 clusters or areas and there used to be 3. Breaking that down each 1 has 3 high schools. Tisdadt and Co are hamstrung in their jobs due to politics. People are irritated about Everyday math and lack of phonics and serious grammar as well as writing. Who like peer editing for days-weeks etc? Who likes webbing v an outline or phrases that can be done on pc? I like the concept of Young Scholars but what exactly is done with the money? Will they scrap Avid in this budget even though it is for the middle student who needs some specifc content tutoring?

In Reston area schools- why is Hunters Woods still a magnet? Why does Terraset with its excess capcity have a trailer? Why does Herndon High have about 10 trailers? What's in those trailers? If it's kids the capcity is incorrect.

Somebody posted a while ago on class sizes on AP and IB. That information should always be available at all levels.

CheekyMonkey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> FWIW, Human Geography is an awesome course even if
> it does not fulfull an SOL reqirement! My son and
> daughter both took this course at West Springfield
> and it is on par with many college-level
> anthropology courses. The DC area affords them
> access to a lot of guest speakers and resources
> from places like the Smithsonian and CIA which
> really brings this course to life.
>
> Anyone can offer AP courses in English, math,
> science and foreign language, but these specialty
> courses are, in my opinion, what makes the program
> worthwhile.

Would you advise that this should be the only AP course at SL and should be offered before AP Government or another "non-redundant of IB" AP course?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 09:15AM by Thomas More.

I learned about a potential TJ bomb threat in december- police dogs, kids outside for 3 hours. Is this true and if so why wasn't it in the newspapers, on TV or did I miss it? I think lots of stuff at schools isn't made public but this?

SOUTH LAKES ALREADY TEACHES ADVANCED US GOVERNMENT. Ask for a syllabus for Pre-IB Government at South Lakes. It is a full course on United States Government. There was no international twist on it. It is called "pre-IB" to indicate that it is an advanced class.

getalife Wrote:
> SOUTH LAKES ALREADY TEACHES ADVANCED US
> GOVERNMENT. Ask for a syllabus for Pre-IB
> Government at South Lakes. It is a full course on
> United States Government. There was no
> international twist on it. It is called "pre-IB"
> to indicate that it is an advanced class.

So then this is an easy fix. If the curriculum already meets the objectives of the AP exam, then call the class AP Government next year. FCPS then will pay for the AP exam. Not only will the students get college credit, but also they will receive half a grade point added to their GPA calculations.

If the Government teacher needs an refresher to teach AP Gov't, the "Fairfax County Public Schools Advanced Placement Institute" is available. From the FCPS website:

"Fairfax County Public Schools, in cooperation with the College Board, is pleased to offer the Summer Institute for Teachers of Advanced Placement as part of an ongoing effort to assist schools in meeting the needs of high-ability students. Institute consultants are experienced Advanced Placement teachers who have demonstrated their ability to help other teachers prepare to teach AP classes.

The AP Institute offers you the information, tools, and strategies you need to build successful Advanced Placement programs in your schools. Participants will focus on curriculum challenges, share and discuss teaching strategies, and review the contributions of research to content, teaching, and labs. A certificate awarding recertification points will be issued to all participants who successfully complete the institute. Registration fee for non-Fairfax County teachers is $600, including all materials, a light breakfast each morning, and snacks.

June 23 - June 27, 2008
8:00 AM - 4:00 PM
Annandale High School
4700 Medford Drive, Annandale, VA 22003
AP Biology
AP Calculus AB
AP Calculus BC
AP Chemistry
AP English Language and Composition
AP English Literature and Composition (new teachers)
[3-day FCPS workshop for experienced teachers, $375]
AP French Language
AP German
AP Government and Politics - Comp
AP Government and Politics - U.S.
AP Psychology
Science Vertical Articulation
AP Spanish Language
AP Statistics
AP Studio Art
AP U.S. History"

getalife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOUTH LAKES ALREADY TEACHES ADVANCED US
> GOVERNMENT. Ask for a syllabus for Pre-IB
> Government at South Lakes. It is a full course on
> United States Government. There was no
> international twist on it. It is called "pre-IB"
> to indicate that it is an advanced class.

You know, if the county would square away the nomenclature used to title these courses, it would dissolve some confusion as to what exactly the course teaches, and how it relates in ranking (advanced or not advanced) to similar courses.

getalife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOUTH LAKES ALREADY TEACHES ADVANCED US
> GOVERNMENT. Ask for a syllabus for Pre-IB
> Government at South Lakes. It is a full course on
> United States Government. There was no
> international twist on it. It is called "pre-IB"
> to indicate that it is an advanced class.


Since three of my children have taken pre-IB govenrment, I'm confident in telling you it is not AP Government. AP Government is taken by seniors. Pre-IB Government is taken by sophomores and is the equivalent of honors government.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 02:08PM by Thomas More.

taxpayer - parents at TJ were informed of the bomb threat - and of the procedures used to deal with it and investigate. My guess is that some stressed out kid had a test that day, but only a guess. Daughter thinks so too.

SL Verity - I apologize for not making my point clearer. It is nice to hear that the current regime at SLHS would be receptive to AP courses, but when you are in the market for new "good" customers, which frankly SLHS is, they ought to know their customers and be responsive to them. This is a hard mindset for many public employees to adopt, but if it is not adopted, what may likely occur is that under-enrollment will continue, with SL supporters gnashing their teeth at why their fellow citizens are narrow minded/racist/or in the mode of just not knowing how great the place really is. And the numbers speak for themselves - in its full iteration, it is a program that supports 7% of attendees. It just isn't in my view pluralistic enough in its implementation to be a broad attractant - and again, this does not make it a bad program (I personally would have loved it), just not one for the average to above average middle class student in Fairfax.

hey,

i am new to this issue. can some1 explain it to me?

thank you

hey,

i am new to this issue. can someone explain it to me?

thank you!

sorry i did two posts. what was the result? there is no resolution yet is there?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
It (IB)
> just isn't in my view pluralistic enough in its
> implementation to be a broad attractant - and
> again, this does not make it a bad program (I
> personally would have loved it), just not one for
> the average to above average middle class student
> in Fairfax.

Well, don't tell that to my children. Both went through the Diploma program and both could be categorized as middle class, above-average and very capable, but certainly not brilliant (apologies to them :)). They both also participated in many demanding extracurriculars, including sports, scouts, art and music, and still found time for active social lives. My daughter had a lot of peers in her class who could have handled the program but didn't try. My son's class had double the number of diploma candidates, and almost double the number of boys participating. Their class actually opened the door for boys signing up, and the trend has continued this year with even more candidates.

What happens if Reston becomes self governing? I was going to suggest that at one of the meetings, but thought it was impossible. Evidently, Reston is considering this. If they do it the City of Fairfax way they wouldn't have their own school system. If they so it the City of Falls Church way, they would have their own school system. How would that work. And yes, All reston residents should go to SL

SLVerity Wrote:
> ... the trend has continued this year with even more candidates.

SLV, can you check this and provide a source? I heard, but not from a verified source, that the number of South Lakes Diploma Candidates has dropped from 55 last year (45 of whom earned the Diploma) to only 40 this year. I don't know where to look online for this particular data point.

sayitanitso Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What happens if Reston becomes self governing? I
> was going to suggest that at one of the meetings,
> but thought it was impossible. Evidently, Reston
> is considering this. If they do it the City of
> Fairfax way they wouldn't have their own school
> system. If they so it the City of Falls Church
> way, they would have their own school system. How
> would that work. And yes, All reston residents
> should go to SL


This is not going to happen. The county just shot it down, the majority of Reston residents are against it.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> getalife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SOUTH LAKES ALREADY TEACHES ADVANCED US
> > GOVERNMENT. Ask for a syllabus for Pre-IB
> > Government at South Lakes. It is a full course
> on
> > United States Government. There was no
> > international twist on it. It is called
> "pre-IB"
> > to indicate that it is an advanced class.
>
>
> Since three of my children have taken pre-IB
> govenrment, I'm confident in telling you it is not
> AP Government. AP Government is taken by seniors.
> Pre-IB Government is taken by sophomores and is
> the equivalent of honors government.


Why does it matter when the students take government? Do you have any data to support that IB students who take it sophomore year are less involved or informed when then turn 18 than AP government students? It is a different system that goes in a different order but I can't believe that it is really making that much of a difference. South Lakes also offers an extensive political science program to willing students senior year.

getalife Wrote:
> Why does it matter when the students take
> government? Do you have any data to support that
> IB students who take it sophomore year are less
> involved or informed when then turn 18 than AP
> government students? It is a different system that
> goes in a different order but I can't believe that
> it is really making that much of a difference.
> South Lakes also offers an extensive political
> science program to willing students senior year.

---------
According to the Robinson web site, tenth graders there may take "Pre-IB /AP Government" so it can be done. I still suggest South Lakes look into it for the 08-09 school year.

However, to respond to your question, a lot of maturing should be occurring between 16 and 18. Eighteen year olds may vote, fight and die for their country, and are about to head out to college or the workforce. Taxes take on a new meaning when you get a job and see how much is taken out of your paycheck.

You should already realize the court system views sixteen year olds as girls and eighteen year olds as women. The courts also views eighteen year olds as adults who can be hit with the death penalty.

You know, as unfair as this process has been, it's the natural result of handing over responsibility and control of your childrens' education to the government. You lose all your rights to decide what they learn and where they learn it, at least without having to put up a fight. I'm not a Ron Paul fan, but I am a huge supporter of his idea of getting government out of the education business.

Imagine how much you'd save each month on your mortgage if you didn't have to buy in the more expensive neighborhood to get the better school. Imagine if the county didn't need your $5,000-10,000 yearly property tax payment plus multi-million dollar bonds because it didn't need to fund a bloated school bureaucracy. You'd have the money to send your kids to any private school you want! You choose the curriculum, you choose the location, and you as parents hold the power because you directly fund the school with no governmental middleman.

Food for thought.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > ... the trend has continued this year with even
> more candidates.
>
> SLV, can you check this and provide a source? I
> heard, but not from a verified source, that the
> number of South Lakes Diploma Candidates has
> dropped from 55 last year (45 of whom earned the
> Diploma) to only 40 this year. I don't know where
> to look online for this particular data point.

The number went to 47 in '08, from 55 in '07. There are 74 Diploma candidates for '09.

http://www.southlakesptsa.org/boundaries/SLHSGlance.pdf

The aforementioned comes off the SLHS website.

Also, in 2007, SLHS students took 644 IB tests (SL and HL), up from 464 in 2005 and 462 in 2006, respectively. Same source --

SLHS website:

http://www.fcps.edu/SouthLakesHS/ib_program/results_history.htm

Remembering that Mr. Gibson works with the Tax Division at the Department of Justice, one has to wonder if it's just a coincidence that Ms. Arakelian was subject to an IRS audited in September 2007, in the middle of their fall campaign. In December, the IRS dropped the audit, stating they had found no irregularities. Mr. Gibson has been accused of using his IRS connections to attack political opponents in the past. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/RobertDNovak/2002/07/29/irs_smoking_gun

If this allegation is true, it is wrongdoing of truly Nixonian proportions.

Does anyone know how to find a copy of the recall petition to sign?

reston6 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sayitanitso Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What happens if Reston becomes self governing?
> I
> > was going to suggest that at one of the
> meetings,
> > but thought it was impossible. Evidently,
> Reston
> > is considering this. If they do it the City of
> > Fairfax way they wouldn't have their own school
> > system. If they so it the City of Falls Church
> > way, they would have their own school system.
> How
> > would that work. And yes, All reston residents
> > should go to SL
>
>
> This is not going to happen. The county just shot
> it down, the majority of Reston residents are
> against it.

Would please provide proof of that statement? Most of my neighbors support it fully.

The facility staff and school board members are acting as criminal to rob residents from their right to choose which schools they want to attend. There is no doubt that when people buying houses, school district is one of the top considerations. They are forcing all those families into the worst HS in the county, literally under gun point Whoever proposes this redistrict deserves to go to hell.
For those poor kids that are cut off from their peers, SLHS do not have any programs such as AP classes available to them. And each year, close to 200 Reston kids hate SLHS so much that, they choose to be in the pupil placement program.
The county is wasting tax payers money on all these nonsense. It will eventually fail as most of the students from Floris and Fox Mill will choose not to attend SLHS.
The those criminals in the county office, they should be prosecuted for robbing thousands of home owners house values and deserve to go to jail.

Padre,
Some one is fudging the numbers at South Lakes. There is no way that they numbers jumped that much in one single year. I would suggest that you apply your math skills to this problem. It will then be quite apparent to you.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > ... the trend has continued this year with even
> more candidates.
>
> SLV, can you check this and provide a source? I
> heard, but not from a verified source, that the
> number of South Lakes Diploma Candidates has
> dropped from 55 last year (45 of whom earned the
> Diploma) to only 40 this year. I don't know where
> to look online for this particular data point.

It is from the PTSA Website: I've attached the document. There are 47 candidates this year and 74 intended candidates for next year.
Attachments:

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLVerity Wrote:
> > > ... the trend has continued this year with
> even
> > more candidates.
> >
> > SLV, can you check this and provide a source? I
> > heard, but not from a verified source, that the
> > number of South Lakes Diploma Candidates has
> > dropped from 55 last year (45 of whom earned
> the
> > Diploma) to only 40 this year. I don't know
> where
> > to look online for this particular data point.
>
> The number went to 47 in '08, from 55 in '07.
> There are 74 Diploma candidates for '09.

--------
Thanks, Padre. Discussions are so much easier when we can all sing from the same sheet of music. It appears both SLV and my source both knew what they were talking about.

As you point out, the PTSA data show 55 Candidates last year with 45 earning the Diploma and 47 Candidates this year. This document was dated in November. Historically, some Candidates drop from the programme after they receive their college admission letters, so there have probably been a few drops since then. And yes, there is a big jump in the number of juniors in the program, but again, historically there is a significant drop in the numbers of IB Diploma Candidates from fall of Junior Year to the exam cycle in May of the Senior year.

Do you have the numbers of South Lakes Juniors who started the IB Diploma Program for each year since September 2002? Then we could see what sort of "DP drop rate" South Lakes can expect.

That will probably answer Alger Hiss's concerns that "Some one is fudging the numbers."

Hello SLVerity,truthbetold and other Reston Posters

You seem to know much about Reston and South Lakes, so I was wondering if there is some way of finding out how many single family homes in Reston feed to South Lakes vs. Towns and Condos. I was driving around the school today, and it appeared to me that it is almost all pockets of attached housing in the immediate areas around SL. I think that most of the SF homes are in the north Reston area. I am not sure why a school would be built in an area where there are not many SF homes, because it seems that many people will leave the area when they out grow their homes.

I suspect that if the SB simply changed boundaries within the Reston area zip codes, and a larger mix of SF homes in Reston fed to SL, it would probably solve most of the problems that are causing concern to the SL parents and student body.

It would certainly unite the Reston Community, increase number of students at South Lakes, decrease the % of FRL, create a balanced "socio-economic" opportunity, and reduce travel time. In addition, it would unite children at the HS level who have probably played sports and shared other activities in their younger years.

This would also allow Fox Mill and Floris to enjoy the same continuity that both Herndon, Langley, Madison and South Lakes have had as it relates to 1 Middle School feeding to the same high school.

I know that Herndon High school PTSA was very adamant about having all Herndon High school children coming from Herndon Middle.

Has the PTSA been pushing for a united Reston over the last 10 years while the student body population of South Lakes has been shrinking?

reston6 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is not going to happen. The county just shot
> it down,

It's not up to the County.

> the majority of Reston residents are against it.

The last time there actually was a poll on this issue there was strong support.

getalife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Why does it matter when the students take
> government?

This issue is should the one AP course offerred at SL be AP Human Geography or AP Government or someother AP course.

Are you really trying to argue that an honors government course is the equivalent of AP Government taught to seniors.

> Do you have any data to support that
> IB students who take it sophomore year are less
> involved or informed when then turn 18 than AP
> government students? It is a different system that
> goes in a different order but I can't believe that
> it is really making that much of a difference.

Pre-IB Government is clearly a less intense coverage of less material than AP Government. I know of no sophomores attempting the AP Government test at the end of the Pre-IB course. Do you?

> South Lakes also offers an extensive political
> science program to willing students senior year.

IB diploma candidates don't take this. They are taking 20th century issues instead, a very non US focused, very European focused course. I can't remember the last time Poltical Science was actually offered at SL, though I know it was offered in 1999-2000.

Perhaps Hiss was talking about the tests taken, not the IB numbers. From memory, I can tell you that my son's 2007 class started with around 60 juniors and ended with 45 earners (75%). My daughter's 2006 class was an anomaly in the trend, as you can see from the data. I believe her class started with around 31 and ended with 21 (67%). For some reason, several very capable boys that year did not go for the diploma and should have (e.g., there were at least 3 National Merit Commended Students (boys)not earning the diploma). My son did not get the diploma last year because he missed an airline flight and was not able to make a test. Since he was already accepted to college and since he felt he had benefited sufficiently from the program, he did not take the necessary steps to make up the test at a later date, which he could have done.

Based on the earning rates above, the class of '09 should produce between 50 to 56 earners. Just looking at the file I posted yesterday about IB diploma earners at IB schools in Virginia, South Lakes looks pretty good, particularly when you consider that the general ed population is around 1250 and some of those schools are much larger. Do you agree?

Thomas More Wrote:
> It's not up to the County.
>
----
TM, can you elaborate?

I don't remember the details but I seem to remember Virginia counties have to give permission before any of their land is incorporated. No longer, for example, can Alexandria just take a bite out of the south end of Arlington unless Arlington first agrees.

My daughter tells me that the two-year IB History course offers History of the Americas Junior year, which covers US and Latin American History, with the emphasis on US. Senior year they study 20th Century Topics, which covers US and European History through and beyond the Cold War.

I thought the books covered were very good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 06:41PM by SLVerity.

Even if Reston becomes a Town, the school will still be a part of the Fairfax County School system. If the school were to become separate, we Reston citizens would be responsible for paying taxes to Reston to cover the cost of the schools and that is not going to happen. Even though Vienna and Herndon are incorporated, their towns are not running the schools. I don't think the town would have any say over the schools.

Thomas,

IB diploma students do take political science. It is an elective, it does not count as a history course.

As for SF Homes that feed into South lakes:

-Across from the school, Tanbark and streets off of that
-Glade between Twin Branches and Soapstone
-Soapstone from Glade all the way to the end in the direction of Lawyers
-Lawyers Road and off-streets from that
-Solaridge and Beacon Hill off of Twin Branches, Thomas View Road off Twin Branches, Hunters Crest Way in Vienna and the neighborhood right before it and right across the street
-Purple beach, and surrounding neighborhoods (durand)
-neighborhoods surrounding sunrise valley elm
-upper lake drive

ect, ect, ect

there are tons of single family homes that are actually extremely pricey in the South Lakes district, all the above are within a mile of the school in the heart of south reston. There are many more not mentioned as well.

Alger Hiss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reston6 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > sayitanitso Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > What happens if Reston becomes self governing?
>
> > I
> > > was going to suggest that at one of the
> > meetings,
> > > but thought it was impossible. Evidently,
> > Reston
> > > is considering this. If they do it the City
> of
> > > Fairfax way they wouldn't have their own
> school
> > > system. If they so it the City of Falls
> Church
> > > way, they would have their own school system.
>
> > How
> > > would that work. And yes, All reston
> residents
> > > should go to SL
> >
> >
> > This is not going to happen. The county just
> shot
> > it down, the majority of Reston residents are
> > against it.
>
> Would please provide proof of that statement?
> Most of my neighbors support it fully.


Even somebody from this thread who is a SL supporter mentioned alot of SL members were very upset about North Reston not being part of SL. Again, politics played a big role in it. If SL is fighting for more people to come to their school, they can fight to get North Reston in. It is ridiculous, the whole thing.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Even somebody from this thread who is a SL
> supporter mentioned alot of SL members were very
> upset about North Reston not being part of SL.
> Again, politics played a big role in it. If SL is
> fighting for more people to come to their school,
> they can fight to get North Reston in. It is
> ridiculous, the whole thing.



Actually that was an Option in the first four, Option 4. It entailed moving Armstrong and Aldrin out of Herndon High School into South Lakes High School. The eastern parts of McNair and Floris would have moved to Herndon.
Students attending Armstrong and Aldrin live in both Reston and Herndon zip codes anywhere from 5 to 10 miles away from South Lakes. Both Aldrin and Armstrong elementary passed AYP last year. No other of the Herndon feeder elementary schools passed AYP. So Herndon would lose two of its "achieving" schools and replace them with part of Floris and McNair, a title 1 school which hasn't made AYP. It would increase the disadvantaged population at Herndon. Some of the Herndon kids who would go to SL can walk to Herndon high.

This option involved approximately 1600 students.

Conversely, the newest option moves Fox Mill and the eastern part of Floris. These students are anywhere from 2 to 7 miles away from South Lakes. Herndon High which is actually a struggling high school, wouldn't be changed. It has the same SAT scores as South Lakes with less than the average disadvantaged population.

This option affects less than 1000 students.

While many people who live in Reston would have liked to see North Reston students go to South Lakes, they aren't necessarily closer and it would impact Herndon High school a great deal.

South Lakes is not solely a Reston school, it draws from Reston and Vienna, as Oakton doesn't draw solely from Oakton, Westfield doesn't draw solely from Chantilly and Chantilly doesn't draw solely from Chantilly.

Zip codes and addresses don't mean much in an area like NoVA where there aren't defined town boundaries.