South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Old Timer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > >
> > > I also think we need to take a hard look at
> > > curriculum and why some kids are failing,
> > > particularly ESOL and poor. Could it be the
> > > "whole language" method of teaching reading?
> I
> > > would bet that it is. And what about this
> > > "Everyday Math"? To me, it's a confusing mess.
>
> > > These are issues to take a hard look at
> across
> > the
> > > county.
> >
> >
> > What is Everyday Math? I've seen that
> discussed
> > here before but my 6th grader is doing the math
> > that I learned - pre algebra, geometry,
> integers,
> > in prparation for algebra.
> >
> > He did have this wacko text book in third grade
> > that I complained about. It was written by a
> some
> > social scientist or something but not a
> > mathematician. We got rid of that. Is that
> > Everday Math? I'm wondering if some of this
> stuff
> > is elementary school specific.
>
>
> To Old Timer and all concerned parents,
> Please view this video on everyday math:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI
>
> My son is getting this in his 3rd grade class. I
> looked up the yearly curriculum, it covers so many
> topics,I doubt they can master many of them.
> Having to learn all of the methods is very
> confusing and error prone.

Please let Dr. Dale and the math curriculum specialists know how you feel. I told Dr. Dale that I'd never met a parent who liked Everyday Math and he said I was the first person to ever say that! He has heard NO complaints about Everyday Math and couldn't tell us when their might be a chance to replace it in our schools. I don't begin to understand his comments since I've heard SOOOO many complaints about it. Hatred of Everyday Math appears to be universal. We tried to tell the school board that, but staff loved it, and the school board voted to adopt the program, against the wishes of the parents and people who really understood math and how to teach it.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Fox Mill Dad = SL Troll

B-I-N-G-0

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't teachers complain? Don't they have a
> say?

No, they do not have a say. The principal decides, but since only Everyday math is fully funded by FCPS, pretty much every school is stuck with it.

When EVeryday was adopted, our school board knew that California had dropped the program in the middle of the school year, costing them millions of dollars, because their scores had plummeted. They knew that it was THE WORST program for poor kids who could not afford outside math tutors. That was proven in numerous cities. No matter. The staff loved this latest fad and our democrats on the board will NEVER vote against anything staff wants. So everyone got stuck with this awful math program.

Is there anyone left who wonders why we continue to have a gap in math and reading scores in FCPS? Only students with parents who can teach them outside of school, and/or can afford tutors, are learning how to read and do math. Our schools sure aren't teaching them with these silly programs.

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, regarding grandfathering -- there is
> no way the school district has the physical or
> financial resources to pull that off. They're
> already predicting a budget shortfall. Where are
> they going to get the extra buses and drivers to
> double up on transportation in and out of the
> affected neighborhoods for the next three years,
> with some kids going to their old HS and some
> going to the new one? Either they will change
> this to only rising seniors at the last minute, or
> they will say, "Fine, finish at your old school,
> but YOU provide the transportation." That's my
> prediction, anyway. We shall see.

That is exactly what will happen at the vote in February. The SB will 'suddenly realize' that they cannot afford to run double buses in all these neighborhoods for 3 more years.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dear South Lakes Pyramid Parent,
> >
> > There are several confounding factors. Teachers
> > who use traditional math materials on the sly
> > (including the politically incorrect and never
> > approved Saxon Math) even though they are
> supposed
> > to use Everyday Math is one. Teachers who
> spend
> > more of the school day teaching math because
> they
> > have to use Everyday Math is another, which has
> > been mentioned by a FCPS math specialist.
> Parents
> > who teach their children math at home using
> > traditional methods is another. Parents who
> send
> > their children to traditional supplemental math
> > programs, such as Kumon, is an increasingly
> > important factor.
> >
>
>
> Wow, you obviously know a lot about this. Is
> there any data we can use to approach the schools?
> It seems at the SB level--they probably shouldn't
> even be offering everyday math.

The school board REFUSED to allow the best math program, Saxon Math. It doesn't fit with their political ideology. Everyday Math does. The democrats ALL voted for it, they LOVE it. Many of us argued against it, but staff loved it and so did the SB. And now, according to Dale, NO ONE, not one single parent, has ever complained about it. If you believe that, please contact me to buy my ocean front house in Indiana.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader, have you considered putting your
> knowledge to work for the County, if you don't
> already?
>
> I loathe Everyday Math curriculum and also the
> lack of phonics at many FCPS schools. That is
> where all of this energy should be going next, if
> it isn't already.

Good luck with that. Many of us, including Forum Reader, have worked to improve these programs for the last 12 to 15 years, to no avail. Sorry, but the democrats on our board LOVE these fuzzy math programs, just as they LOVED Whole Language and every other flaky, fad, education program that comes down the pike. You won't change them, no one can do that, it's how the democrats think, it's deeply embedded in their ideology. They do not care if the programs work, or if the achievement gap is worse in FCPS than any other city or county in the state. They will NOT change. Stu made that VERY clear when he supported Everyday Math. Dr. Dale made it very clear when he said our staff knows exactly why, and how, the other parts of the state are closing the racial gap in scores and "WE will NOT do that, we will NOT do what they are doing in FCPS". He was MORE than clear that we will NOT adopt programs that work for the students who need them the most. It will NOT happen here. He was quite defiant sounding, and quite proud, when he said that. I guess FCPS is just too superior to use programs that work. That seems to be their message. With this new school board, I would expect even more support for these flakey, faddish, programs. Sad, but true.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
> Agreed. Would be interesting to investigate the
> SOL scores for kids using everyday math vs. other
> methods. Since we have the school stats, and can
> find out who uses everyday math, this shouldn't be
> too hard, tedious maybe. However, as in my school,
> teachers may be supplementing it. This is a
> confounding factor.
>
> I heard anecdotally that kids in low SE
> populations were passing reading SOLs because
> their teachers are using Phonics. On the sly, of
> course.

Many parents have hired tutors or they teach their children math at home since our schools adopted Everyday Math. I don't think I've known a child in Vienna who didn't have a math tutor, and often a writing tutor too.

Isn't it crazy that our teachers have to sneak around to use programs that work? And we're paying for this insanity.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > APorIBMom Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Dear South Lakes Pyramid Parent,
> > >
> > > There are several confounding factors.
> Teachers
> > > who use traditional math materials on the
> sly...
> Is
> > there any data we can use to approach the
> schools?
> > It seems at the SB level--they probably
> shouldn't
> > even be offering everyday math.
>
> They put it there and some lifers like Gibson and
> Strauss are the worst on fads and special
> programs. Ask Stu -he Listens. If he had any
> backbone South Lkaes would not have been so
> underenrolled while I'm forced to pay for
> Westfield and Langley. Westfield is probly the
> most expensive construction related learning
> cottage ever conceived. There is NO WAY VIRGINIA
> will increase FCPS funding as long as this kind of
> BS is continued.
>
> Every dollar spent on needless construction takes
> away from true facilities needs, class sizes,
> instruction as well as teacher's compensation.

Virginia doesn't have to increase funding, the board of supervisors is more than happy to give them more money every year.

truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a nicer game:
>
> Reston Va top 100 places to live, Money Magazine:
>
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/200
> 6/snapshots/PL5166672.html
>
> Let's keep this one going...

Top 100? Vienna was number 4 in 2005.

Restonian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well, there are also examples that
> disadvantaged
> > students do better academially in smaller
> schools,
> > Stuart being one.
> >
>
> Anecdote is still not the plural of data.
>
> In most cases, students from low income families
> perform better when they make up a smaller
> percentage of a student body than a larger
> percentage.

Might that be because they are in a better school? It would seem likely that poor kids would do better at Langley than South Lakes or Mt Vernon or DC because Langley is a better school. It has better teachers because that's where better teachers want to teach, it has AP, and better schools are the choice for most administrators and teachers.

BTW, you are being much nicer with this new nic. Or newish nic. We all appreciate that.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader, have you considered putting your
> > knowledge to work for the County, if you don't
> > already?
> >
> > I loathe Everyday Math curriculum and also the
> > lack of phonics at many FCPS schools. That is
> > where all of this energy should be going next,
> if
> > it isn't already.
>
> Good luck with that. Many of us, including Forum
> Reader, have worked to improve these programs for
> the last 12 to 15 years, to no avail. Sorry, but
> the democrats on our board LOVE these fuzzy math
> programs, just as they LOVED Whole Language and
> every other flaky, fad, education program that
> comes down the pike. You won't change them, no
> one can do that, it's how the democrats think,
> it's deeply embedded in their ideology. They do
> not care if the programs work, or if the
> achievement gap is worse in FCPS than any other
> city or county in the state. They will NOT
> change. Stu made that VERY clear when he
> supported Everyday Math. Dr. Dale made it very
> clear when he said our staff knows exactly why,
> and how, the other parts of the state are closing
> the racial gap in scores and "WE will NOT do that,
> we will NOT do what they are doing in FCPS". He
> was MORE than clear that we will NOT adopt
> programs that work for the students who need them
> the most. It will NOT happen here. He was quite
> defiant sounding, and quite proud, when he said
> that. I guess FCPS is just too superior to use
> programs that work. That seems to be their
> message. With this new school board, I would
> expect even more support for these flakey,
> faddish, programs. Sad, but true.

The democrats (liberals, socialists) prefer a dumb-downed populace and
you will certainly get that with whole language and everyday math. The masses are easier to control when reading skills are sub-par.

Another Fox Mill Dad Wrote:

>
> I left that meeting convinced I'd never want to
> send my kids to SL. If you re-read my post maybe
> you'll get my point. It wasn't that I really want
> to send my kids to SL now, it's that you
> (opponents of RD) really blew it with everyone who
> was even remotely on the fence or leaning your way
> on it as I was. You were disorganized, your
> tactics were reprehensible and now your all crying
> like babies because you didn't get your way. I'm
> sympathetic to RD opponents that refrained from
> these tactics and may have to deal with having
> kids at SL and Oakton simultaneously or are doing
> this every year as floris seems to but as far as
> I'm concerned the rest of you got what you
> deserve.
>
The other possibility is that, once the parameters of the study were created:

1) no Langley/Madison,
2) "fixing" what are inherently socioeconomics problems the way they always have (covering the problem over with by carving off kids with higher test scores whether with GT centers, magnet programs, the mistaken belief parents would pupil place for IB, etc.),
3) the faked up rationale for moving kids from Westfield (with the expansion not yet even today in full use (with the presentation by the Area Super who obviously didn't believe the over capacity rationales)), and
4) the somewhat better rationale for Chantilly (given the modular),

it was obvious who was going unless redistricting was/is stopped.

With SB/Staff behaving badly in the creation of the study parameters, it's pretty hard to see just why the affected adults wouldn't also behave badly.

Note, it also didn't help the SB/Staff cause that Stu'd behaved so badly during the campaign he managed to get an official reprimand from the State for actions that, as far as I'm concerned, justify recall irrespective of whatever happens with this study.

samgee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SLVerity Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Forum Reader, have you considered putting
> your
> > > knowledge to work for the County, if you
> don't
> > > already?
> > >
> > > I loathe Everyday Math curriculum and also
> the
> > > lack of phonics at many FCPS schools. That
> is
> > > where all of this energy should be going
> next,
> > if
> > > it isn't already.
> >
> > Good luck with that. Many of us, including
> Forum
> > Reader, have worked to improve these programs
> for
> > the last 12 to 15 years, to no avail. Sorry,
> but
> > the democrats on our board LOVE these fuzzy
> math
> > programs, just as they LOVED Whole Language and
> > every other flaky, fad, education program that
> > comes down the pike. You won't change them, no
> > one can do that, it's how the democrats think,
> > it's deeply embedded in their ideology. They
> do
> > not care if the programs work, or if the
> > achievement gap is worse in FCPS than any other
> > city or county in the state. They will NOT
> > change. Stu made that VERY clear when he
> > supported Everyday Math. Dr. Dale made it very
> > clear when he said our staff knows exactly why,
> > and how, the other parts of the state are
> closing
> > the racial gap in scores and "WE will NOT do
> that,
> > we will NOT do what they are doing in FCPS".
> He
> > was MORE than clear that we will NOT adopt
> > programs that work for the students who need
> them
> > the most. It will NOT happen here. He was
> quite
> > defiant sounding, and quite proud, when he said
> > that. I guess FCPS is just too superior to use
> > programs that work. That seems to be their
> > message. With this new school board, I would
> > expect even more support for these flakey,
> > faddish, programs. Sad, but true.
>
> The democrats (liberals, socialists) prefer a
> dumb-downed populace and
> you will certainly get that with whole language
> and everyday math. The masses are easier to
> control when reading skills are sub-par.


See, e.g., Fox (FAUX) News for confirmation on (mis)leading the masses.

Murrow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samgee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > SLVerity Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Forum Reader, have you considered putting
> > your
> > > > knowledge to work for the County, if you
> > don't
> > > > already?
> > > >
> > > > I loathe Everyday Math curriculum and also
> > the
> > > > lack of phonics at many FCPS schools. That
> > is
> > > > where all of this energy should be going
> > next,
> > > if
> > > > it isn't already.
> > >
> > > Good luck with that. Many of us, including
> > Forum
> > > Reader, have worked to improve these programs
> > for
> > > the last 12 to 15 years, to no avail. Sorry,
> > but
> > > the democrats on our board LOVE these fuzzy
> > math
> > > programs, just as they LOVED Whole Language
> and
> > > every other flaky, fad, education program
> that
> > > comes down the pike. You won't change them,
> no
> > > one can do that, it's how the democrats
> think,
> > > it's deeply embedded in their ideology. They
> > do
> > > not care if the programs work, or if the
> > > achievement gap is worse in FCPS than any
> other
> > > city or county in the state. They will NOT
> > > change. Stu made that VERY clear when he
> > > supported Everyday Math. Dr. Dale made it
> very
> > > clear when he said our staff knows exactly
> why,
> > > and how, the other parts of the state are
> > closing
> > > the racial gap in scores and "WE will NOT do
> > that,
> > > we will NOT do what they are doing in FCPS".
> > He
> > > was MORE than clear that we will NOT adopt
> > > programs that work for the students who need
> > them
> > > the most. It will NOT happen here. He was
> > quite
> > > defiant sounding, and quite proud, when he
> said
> > > that. I guess FCPS is just too superior to
> use
> > > programs that work. That seems to be their
> > > message. With this new school board, I would
> > > expect even more support for these flakey,
> > > faddish, programs. Sad, but true.
> >
> > The democrats (liberals, socialists) prefer a
> > dumb-downed populace and
> > you will certainly get that with whole language
> > and everyday math. The masses are easier to
> > control when reading skills are sub-par.
>
>
> See, e.g., Fox (FAUX) News for confirmation on
> (mis)leading the masses.


The Clintoon News Network (CNN) cannot stand that the masses can
get their news elsewhere.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Fox Mill Dad Wrote:
>
> >
> > I left that meeting convinced I'd never want to
> > send my kids to SL. If you re-read my post
> maybe
> > you'll get my point. It wasn't that I really
> want
> > to send my kids to SL now, it's that you
> > (opponents of RD) really blew it with everyone
> who
> > was even remotely on the fence or leaning your
> way
> > on it as I was. You were disorganized, your
> > tactics were reprehensible and now your all
> crying
> > like babies because you didn't get your way.
> I'm
> > sympathetic to RD opponents that refrained from
> > these tactics and may have to deal with having
> > kids at SL and Oakton simultaneously or are
> doing
> > this every year as floris seems to but as far
> as
> > I'm concerned the rest of you got what you
> > deserve.
> >
> The other possibility is that, once the parameters
> of the study were created:
>
> 1) no Langley/Madison,
> 2) "fixing" what are inherently socioeconomics
> problems the way they always have (covering the
> problem over with by carving off kids with higher
> test scores whether with GT centers, magnet
> programs, the mistaken belief parents would pupil
> place for IB, etc.),
> 3) the faked up rationale for moving kids from
> Westfield (with the expansion not yet even today
> in full use (with the presentation by the Area
> Super who obviously didn't believe the over
> capacity rationales)), and
> 4) the somewhat better rationale for Chantilly
> (given the modular),
>
> it was obvious who was going unless redistricting
> was/is stopped.
>
> With SB/Staff behaving badly in the creation of
> the study parameters, it's pretty hard to see just
> why the affected adults wouldn't also behave
> badly.
>
> Note, it also didn't help the SB/Staff cause that
> Stu'd behaved so badly during the campaign he
> managed to get an official reprimand from the
> State for actions that, as far as I'm concerned,
> justify recall irrespective of whatever happens
> with this study.


That is why alot of opponets of RD are saying this study is extremely flawed.

samgee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Murrow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > samgee Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Neen Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > SLVerity Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Forum Reader, have you considered putting
> > > your
> > > > > knowledge to work for the County, if you
> > > don't
> > > > > already?
> > > > >
> > > > > I loathe Everyday Math curriculum and
> also
> > > the
> > > > > lack of phonics at many FCPS schools.
> That
> > > is
> > > > > where all of this energy should be going
> > > next,
> > > > if
> > > > > it isn't already.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck with that. Many of us, including
> > > Forum
> > > > Reader, have worked to improve these
> programs
> > > for
> > > > the last 12 to 15 years, to no avail.
> Sorry,
> > > but
> > > > the democrats on our board LOVE these fuzzy
> > > math
> > > > programs, just as they LOVED Whole Language
> > and
> > > > every other flaky, fad, education program
> > that
> > > > comes down the pike. You won't change
> them,
> > no
> > > > one can do that, it's how the democrats
> > think,
> > > > it's deeply embedded in their ideology.
> They
> > > do
> > > > not care if the programs work, or if the
> > > > achievement gap is worse in FCPS than any
> > other
> > > > city or county in the state. They will NOT
> > > > change. Stu made that VERY clear when he
> > > > supported Everyday Math. Dr. Dale made it
> > very
> > > > clear when he said our staff knows exactly
> > why,
> > > > and how, the other parts of the state are
> > > closing
> > > > the racial gap in scores and "WE will NOT
> do
> > > that,
> > > > we will NOT do what they are doing in FCPS".
>
> > > He
> > > > was MORE than clear that we will NOT adopt
> > > > programs that work for the students who
> need
> > > them
> > > > the most. It will NOT happen here. He was
> > > quite
> > > > defiant sounding, and quite proud, when he
> > said
> > > > that. I guess FCPS is just too superior to
> > use
> > > > programs that work. That seems to be their
> > > > message. With this new school board, I
> would
> > > > expect even more support for these flakey,
> > > > faddish, programs. Sad, but true.
> > >
> > > The democrats (liberals, socialists) prefer a
> > > dumb-downed populace and
> > > you will certainly get that with whole
> language
> > > and everyday math. The masses are easier to
> > > control when reading skills are sub-par.
> >
> >
> > See, e.g., Fox (FAUX) News for confirmation on
> > (mis)leading the masses.
>
>
> The Clintoon News Network (CNN) cannot stand that
> the masses can
> get their news elsewhere.

O'Really? Hand me the loofah, together with that little blue bill, Rush.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truthbetold Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Here's a nicer game:
> >
> > Reston Va top 100 places to live, Money
> Magazine:
> >
> >
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/200
>
> > 6/snapshots/PL5166672.html
> >
> > Let's keep this one going...
>
> Top 100? Vienna was number 4 in 2005.

Reston was # 43 last year (Vienna didn't make it last year, though it did the year before). The point is that these are both great places to live, on all levels. This is a NICE game and only NICE people are allowed to play.

My friend,

CNN is talking about the "RESTON TOWN CENTER" and surrounding areas, don't be confused....Njce restaurants, great employers, and very expensive condos and a vibrant community "within" a two-mile ratio...they didn't mention SL


truthbetold Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > truthbetold Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Here's a nicer game:
> > >
> > > Reston Va top 100 places to live, Money
> > Magazine:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/200
>
> >
> > > 6/snapshots/PL5166672.html
> > >
> > > Let's keep this one going...
> >
> > Top 100? Vienna was number 4 in 2005.
>
> Reston was # 43 last year (Vienna didn't make it
> last year, though it did the year before). The
> point is that these are both great places to live,
> on all levels. This is a NICE game and only NICE
> people are allowed to play.

I disagree with some posters here about the school's role in affecting property values.

I own more than one home in different parts of the country --and my wife has owned another home which was sold in another area. My home in Fox Mill Estates happens to be my primary investment. I happen to live in this home. [I think most folks primary residence is their primary investment.] I have done allot of work on this house. Allot of the work I have done myself to save money. So for "us", home ownership has been a real investment of time and money.

As far as being a "sucker", as one poster calls folks who buy homes with an eye toward the schools, well I am happy to have been such a successful "sucker" in residential real estate over the years. And, yes, I have looked at the schools when making these discissions.

Which reminds me of the more upbeat approach toward resolving this dilemia. The most reasonable outcome, to me at least, seems to be the one that improves property values around South Lakes while keeping the neighboring developments' valuations stable. The home owners and the county revenue collectors both win.

Perhaps one solution "might" be to keep South Lakes High School and redistrict those areas in Reston where the disadvantaged children live to go to attend neighboring high schools that are far better off. The neighboring high schools could share equally in this "redistricting."

From what I have read here the children who are disadvantaged will have a better chance of learning if they are not congregating in the same school. If this is true, then I do not see why we shouldn't do it. It improves the outcome.

Otherwise we have this "covering up" issue that many posters are concerned about. "Covering up" a problem doesn't help those most affected by the issue --the disadvantaged children.

I suppose one might redistrict Fox Mill Estates and other districts to feed South Lakes --raising the school's acadmeic standing while redistricting the disadvantged children to neighboring schools to improve their learning experience. Who knows, South Lakes might outperform in this instance?

And property valuations would remain stable or increase. This is good for the local economy.

[By the way, I did read the post by the child on this site. I do think his or her concern is a very real one. I remember what it was like being young and having to make friends after moving. I did not like it either. And this is the one flaw in the plan of redistricting --no matter who goes where for what reasons.]

Addendum to my previous post:

Sorry about the spelling errors or grammar. I did not buy Microsoft Word. I am that cheap.

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
> ... From what I have read here the children who are
> disadvantaged will have a better chance of
> learning if they are not congregating in the same
> school. If this is true, then I do not see why we
> shouldn't do it. It improves the outcome. ...
>
That is the undocumented claim of one or two posters. However, the US Department of Education website states disadvantaged children have "a better chance of learning" in a smaller school (think South Lakes, Marshall, and Stuart) than a large school (think Oakton, Chantilly, and especially Westfield).

To repeat my earlier post, "Among current research findings:
* Large high schools, particularly those serving low-income students, have disproportionately lower achievement and higher incidences of violence than smaller schools serving similar student populations.
* In small schools, students tend to be more satisfied, more academically productive, more likely to participate in school activities, better behaved, and less likely to drop out than students in large schools."

So according to research reported by the US Department of Education, disadvantaged children are better off if they stay at South Lakes and no more additional students are added.

I 'd like to know in specifics how the study categorize as large and small schools. What's their definition of similar student populations. This premise of the study doesn't apply here.

What we are doing now is not to make SLHS a large school but a school with an optimized population which is still smaller than most other surrounding schools. More teachers and resources will come. More programs will be added. Student demographics will be improved.

I challenge you will find any educator that thinks these changes will not improve the school.

To Forum Reader,

Thank you for your reply. If what you write is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it seems as if the approach within the school is what needs changing. I assume you would suscribe to emulating what other schools in similar situations have done to help the children at South Lakes. Copy what works so to speak. I imagine that there are case studies avaialbe to learn from. I am all for that of course.

Is the "nub" of the problem that if we increase the size of the school the disadvantaged children will do worse?

If so, then we wouldn't want to make South Lakes bigger would we?

As I wrote before my son attended a military academy for two summers --that school's discipline is such that every child who gradutes from that school is accepted to college. The school is small and, yes, some children have issues.
But they have 100% college acceptance and the boys learn to respect themselves.

Reston Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I challenge you will find any educator that thinks these changes will not improve the school.

Just travel a few short miles to the west where the Loudoun School Board has set the optimal maximum number of kids at a high school at 1500.

FCPS views kids as a commodity to be warehoused, thus, Westfield with 3200 kids, not only the largest high school in the Commonwealth of Virginia but also one of the largest in the country.

Every student does better in a smaller school and especially students facing challenges to their educational achievement like learning disabilities or socio-economic deprivation.

But FCPS has set the optimal number this year at 2000, so we go through this process. When the County's school age population declines, as all mature jurisdictions experience, it will be reset to 1500 and then 1000, so as to guarantee the fewest number of lay-offs.

It's a story as old as civilization. The bureaucracy exists to perpetuate itself at the expense of the population it is supposed to serve. Thus, the fall of Chinese civilization just when the Europeans were rounding the Cape of Good Hope.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2008 01:15PM by Thomas More.

Some recent posters are making the assumption that all kids are South Lakes are disadvantaged. It is simply not the case. The redistricting will also help middle class kids at South Lakes receive programs and classes equal to their peers at surrounding schools. That will make it more likely that their families will also stay in the school and in that in turn will help the disadvantaged kids. Redistricting is not just to help one type of student. It is to provide parity for all students in Western Fairfax.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some recent posters are making the assumption that
> all kids are South Lakes are disadvantaged. It is
> simply not the case. The redistricting will also
> help middle class kids at South Lakes receive
> programs and classes equal to their peers at
> surrounding schools. That will make it more
> likely that their families will also stay in the
> school and in that in turn will help the
> disadvantaged kids. Redistricting is not just to
> help one type of student. It is to provide parity
> for all students in Western Fairfax.


"Provide parity."

So, if 8th grade Student A is going to Oakton and has really great educational options (like AP), and 8th grade Student B is going to South Lakes and won't have the same options, the solution is to take away options from Student A by sending him or her to South Lakes so that future South Lakes Student C two or three years behind them both can hopefully have the options they both wanted (but aren't going to get)? This helps Student B how, exactly?

Sounds like a great plan. Very fair and equitable: Both Students A and B lose.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some recent posters are making the assumption that
> all kids are South Lakes are disadvantaged. It is
> simply not the case. The redistricting will also
> help middle class kids at South Lakes receive
> programs and classes equal to their peers at
> surrounding schools. That will make it more
> likely that their families will also stay in the
> school and in that in turn will help the
> disadvantaged kids. Redistricting is not just to
> help one type of student. It is to provide parity
> for all students in Western Fairfax.

So it has been South Lakes all long from this so called boundary study?-- just one high school! --what about other small high schools in other places of the county, do they need more students to help them especially disadvantaged kids? This should call for a county-wide study just to be fair for everybody. Then we all will understand what "parity" has to provide---county wide, not just west county.

Everyone,

Below is a comparison of South Lakes FRL and ESOL numbers, for which so much weight is being given in this debate, between Option #5 and my latest offering of Option #7 (really no more than a tweaked Option #1 that adds nothing to Herndon and includes Madison island)

Here are the numbers on Option #7:

South Lakes FRL goes from 33.2% to 25%
South Lakes ESOL goes from 15.1% to 11.5%

The numbers on Option #5:

South Lakes FRL goes from 33.2% to 24.5%
South Lakes ESOL goes from 15.1% to 11%

Does anyone see any significant difference? Me neither. This hogwash about McNair ruining South Lakes has no validity.

Reston Parent Wrote:
> I 'd like to know in specifics how the study
> categorize as large and small schools. What's
> their definition of similar student populations.
-------
Restonian Wrote:
>> In most cases, students from low income families
> perform better when they make up a smaller
> percentage of a student body than a larger
> percentage.
-------
SLVerity Wrote:
> Some recent posters are making the assumption that
> all kids are South Lakes are disadvantaged. It is
> simply not the case. The redistricting will also
> help middle class kids at South Lakes ...

I think most readers of this thread will agree that I am doing more than my share of the research about the issues being discussed. May I suggest you cite and quote your sources to support the claim that a larger South Lakes would help disadvantaged, or for that matter ANY, current South Lakes students?

To help you get started you might check out the Educational Information and Resource Center [EIRC], a public agency specializing in education-related programs and services for parents, schools, communities, nonprofit organizations and privately held businesses.

The following is from their "OVERVIEW OF RECENT RESEARCH ON EFFECTIVENESS OF SMALL SCHOOLS."

"The small schools literature began with the large-scale quantitative studies of the late 1980s and early 1990s that firmly established small schools as more productive and effective than large ones. These studies, involving large numbers of students, schools, and districts, confirmed that students learn more and better in small schools (Lee & Smith, 1995). Students make more rapid progress toward graduation (McMullan, Sipe, & Wolf, 1994). They are more satisfied with small schools, and fewer of them drop out than from larger schools (Pittman & Haughwout, 1987). Students behave better in smaller schools, which thus experience fewer instances of both minor and serious infractions (Stockard & Mayberry, 1992). All of this is particularly true for disadvantaged students, who perform far differently in small schools and appear more dependent upon them for success than do more fortunate youngsters (Lee & Smith, 1995).

All of these things we have confirmed with a clarity and at a level of confidence rare in the annals of education research. As one researcher summed it up, "a large body of research in the affective and social realms overwhelmingly affirms the superiority of small schools" (Cotton, 1996b). Another researcher noted that size exerts a "unique influence" on students' academic accomplishment, with a strong negative relationship linking the two: the larger the school, the lower the students' achievement levels (Howley,1994).

Such quantitative studies have built an impressive case for smallness. And a number of literature syntheses and reviews have now displayed the findings of such extensive studies and the advantages of small schools (e.g., Cotton, 1996a; Gladden, 1998). As these studies-of-studies show, it is rare indeed to find empirical support or justification for the large high school. Even those few studies citing positive benefits of large schools for some students (e.g., Friedkin & Necochea, 1988; Howley, 1995) find such benefits to be of far less magnitude than are the disadvantages of such schools for many others (Gladden, 1998)."

All of these studies support turning Chantilly and Westfield into grade 7-12 secondary schools, but they do NOT support adding more students to South Lakes.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone,
>
> Below is a comparison of South Lakes FRL and ESOL
> numbers, for which so much weight is being given
> in this debate, between Option #5 and my latest
> offering of Option #7 (really no more than a
> tweaked Option #1 that adds nothing to Herndon and
> includes Madison island)
>
> Here are the numbers on Option #7:
>
> South Lakes FRL goes from 33.2% to 25%
> South Lakes ESOL goes from 15.1% to 11.5%
>
> The numbers on Option #5:
>
> South Lakes FRL goes from 33.2% to 24.5%
> South Lakes ESOL goes from 15.1% to 11%
>
> Does anyone see any significant difference? Me
> neither. This hogwash about McNair ruining South
> Lakes has no validity.



McNair, as one of the largest feeder schools to both Rachel Carson and Westfield, significantly contributes to these 2 schools' success in terms of testing and performance, etc... Their FRL/ESOL status has nothing to do with their ability to successfully contribute to a school's well-being and recognition. South Lakes is full of hogwash.

A few pages back, many of you were commenting on Everyday Math. For a few years, I was Steve Hunt's appointee to the county's Math Curriculum Committee until the committee was disbanded this year. I raised the subject of Everyday Math whenever I could, but the committee was stacked with young naive elementary school teachers and elementary math specialists who were almost evangelical in their devotion to fuzzy math instruction. The two seasoned high school math teachers on the committee were unwilling to enter the discussions about Everyday Math even though they told me outside of the meeting how kids suffered in high school as a result of these fuzzy math programs.

Frank Atchison, the head of math instruction for the county, was privately also very skeptical, yet publicly supportive of Everyday Math. Perhaps he liked his job. He did assure me that the program is no longer used in schools where children typically struggle with the basics and risk failing their SOLs. GT kids don't risk failing their SOLs, but they do risk failing advanced courses in high school because of the week foundation they receive in much earlier grades.

When my younger son was in non-GT 6th grade at Terraset, I felt he could use a more challenging curriculum so I encouraged him and a friend to try to test into Algebra 1 in 7th grade. To help them, I bought the Saxon pre-algebra book and worked with them for about an hour a week for a few months. They both passed the and became two of the three non-GT center 7th graders at Hughes in Algebra 1. Neither my son nor his friend are math wizards,so I have to wonder why fewer than half of the Sunrise Valley GT kids pass the same test. These kids are in "advanced math" since third grade!

You may have noticed that I used my real name on this post. Posting anonymously makes me uncomfortable; I felt cowardly when I did it once a few months ago and as a result, haven't posted since. I am a South Lakes parents and a PTSA vice president, as well as curator of the SLHS PTSA website. However, my post reflects my own opinion, and not the position of the PTSA.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It is to provide parity
> for all students in Western Fairfax.

It looks to me like the only beneficiaries of this entire redistricing will be the SLHS kids who take whatever courses can be added there as a result. A few advanced math and science courses - 100-200 kids give or take?

This is just a guess. Perhaps it would be helpful if someone from the school system would provide more actual detail on this. That way, the cost could be compared to the benefit.

RealityCheck Wrote:
> It looks to me like the only beneficiaries of this
> entire redistricing will be the SLHS kids who take
> whatever courses can be added there as a result.
> A few advanced math and science courses - 100-200
> kids give or take?
>
> This is just a guess. Perhaps it would be helpful
> if someone from the school system would provide
> more actual detail on this. That way, the cost
> could be compared to the benefit.

No AP courses would be added that more or less duplicate IB offerings. Specifically, do not expect any AP science courses. South Lakes MIGHT get AP US Government and / or US History, because those courses have nothing comparable in the IB programme.

[All together now. Next verse, same as the first: If you want IB, make it work like it does South Lakes and Marshall, which are FCPS IB high schools of similar size. On the other hand, if you want AP, get rid of IB.]

As for cost, AP is roughly half the cost of IB.

Small typing correction: "If you want IB, make it work like it does STUART and Marshall..."

I am curious where the, teachers, materials etc will be coming from, and how it will be paid for, to accommodate all of the additional students at SL. In addition, there will be the added expense of running all of the buses to all of the existing schools for the next 3 years. I thought I read somewhere that the County School Board Staff is projecting a $98,000,000 budget short fall in the upcoming year.

I am sure that many people in the county will not be in favor of approving bonds to pay for the shortfall, especially those of us who feel that the SB has shown very poor judgment in how they have spent our money to date.

When you add in the fact that all RE property tax assessments should show a significant drop in value due to a declining market, it seems that we are going to have a major budget crisis on our hands.

Any thoughts?

I find it funny that some posters who use every opportunity to denigrate the so-called 'liberal' education establishment, nevertheless pull out US DOE studies when it suits their purposes. So are we now to agree that the US DOE is doing a fine job leading educational efforts in this country? And if we are, then a quick reading of the very same studies indicates that all schools should be reduced in size, and thus would not Chantilly, Westfield, and Oakton also benefit from being reduced in size, which is one of the criteria of this West County Boundary Study, especially since the studies indicate that ALL students, not just lower-income students, benefit from being in a smaller school? Has anyone considered that the overwhelmingly large size of Westfield may have negatively impacted recent graduates who now live in infamy?

Furthermore, according to the DOE, does a small school benefit when all immediately surrounding schools have at least 500 and up to 2,000 more general education students such as is the case with South Lakes? Keep in mind that South Lakes has a MMR magnet and a significant ESOL population, both of which are not in the general education population, and that the actual numbers of general education students at South Lakes are around 1,150. How does that impact South Lakes' ability to offer the same level and magnitude of courses to its bright and successful students, who should not be ignored in all of this? The conservatives among us should and would be the first to decry boosting the performance of lower-performing students at the expense of the stronger students if it were happening at their school.

How does the relatively small size of South Lakes impact extracurricular opportunities for all students, which we can all agree are very important on today's typical college application? What happens to extracurriculars that are primarily funded by the parents, when the school is full of a disproportionate number of disadvantaged students requiring scholarships from most Booster Groups in order to even participate and thus relatively 'poor' booster budgets, when compared to those of surrounding schools? How does that impact families of South Lakes who are subsidizing those less fortunate students, sometimes at the expense of their own children's opportunities?

Keeping in mind that this study is dealing with 6 schools in the western part of the County, why are schools not in the study even relevant to the discussion? Just because some may wish it does not make it so.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am curious where the, teachers, materials etc
> will be coming from, and how it will be paid for,
> to accommodate all of the additional students at
> SL. In addition, there will be the added expense
> of running all of the buses to all of the existing
> schools for the next 3 years. I thought I read
> somewhere that the County School Board Staff is
> projecting a $98,000,000 budget short fall in the
> upcoming year.
>
> I am sure that many people in the county will not
> be in favor of approving bonds to pay for the
> shortfall, especially those of us who feel that
> the SB has shown very poor judgment in how they
> have spent our money to date.
>
> When you add in the fact that all RE property tax
> assessments should show a significant drop in
> value due to a declining market, it seems that we
> are going to have a major budget crisis on our
> hands.
>
> Any thoughts?

Were you worried about budget shortfalls when Westfield was being made so large when a perfectly and soon to be improved school was in your back yard? I don't remember any outcries from Floris then.

Has anyone considered that the overwhelmingly large size of Westfield may have negatively impacted recent graduates who now live in infamy?
......
Cheap shot....shame on you....

Murrow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samgee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Murrow Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > samgee Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Neen Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > SLVerity Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > Forum Reader, have you considered
> putting
> > > > your
> > > > > > knowledge to work for the County, if
> you
> > > > don't
> > > > > > already?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I loathe Everyday Math curriculum and
> > also
> > > > the
> > > > > > lack of phonics at many FCPS schools.
> > That
> > > > is
> > > > > > where all of this energy should be
> going
> > > > next,
> > > > > if
> > > > > > it isn't already.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck with that. Many of us,
> including
> > > > Forum
> > > > > Reader, have worked to improve these
> > programs
> > > > for
> > > > > the last 12 to 15 years, to no avail.
> > Sorry,
> > > > but
> > > > > the democrats on our board LOVE these
> fuzzy
> > > > math
> > > > > programs, just as they LOVED Whole
> Language
> > > and
> > > > > every other flaky, fad, education program
> > > that
> > > > > comes down the pike. You won't change
> > them,
> > > no
> > > > > one can do that, it's how the democrats
> > > think,
> > > > > it's deeply embedded in their ideology.
> > They
> > > > do
> > > > > not care if the programs work, or if the
> > > > > achievement gap is worse in FCPS than any
> > > other
> > > > > city or county in the state. They will
> NOT
> > > > > change. Stu made that VERY clear when he
> > > > > supported Everyday Math. Dr. Dale made
> it
> > > very
> > > > > clear when he said our staff knows
> exactly
> > > why,
> > > > > and how, the other parts of the state are
> > > > closing
> > > > > the racial gap in scores and "WE will NOT
> > do
> > > > that,
> > > > > we will NOT do what they are doing in
> FCPS".
> >
> > > > He
> > > > > was MORE than clear that we will NOT
> adopt
> > > > > programs that work for the students who
> > need
> > > > them
> > > > > the most. It will NOT happen here. He
> was
> > > > quite
> > > > > defiant sounding, and quite proud, when
> he
> > > said
> > > > > that. I guess FCPS is just too superior
> to
> > > use
> > > > > programs that work. That seems to be
> their
> > > > > message. With this new school board, I
> > would
> > > > > expect even more support for these
> flakey,
> > > > > faddish, programs. Sad, but true.
> > > >
> > > > The democrats (liberals, socialists) prefer
> a
> > > > dumb-downed populace and
> > > > you will certainly get that with whole
> > language
> > > > and everyday math. The masses are easier to
> > > > control when reading skills are sub-par.
> > >
> > >
> > > See, e.g., Fox (FAUX) News for confirmation
> on
> > > (mis)leading the masses.
> >
> >
> > The Clintoon News Network (CNN) cannot stand
> that
> > the masses can
> > get their news elsewhere.
>
> O'Really? Hand me the loofah, together with that
> little blue bill, Rush.
Are you a student because your writing is extremely sophomoric.

abc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone considered that the overwhelmingly
> large size of Westfield may have negatively
> impacted recent graduates who now live in infamy?
>
> ......
> Cheap shot....shame on you....

I was not taking a cheap shot. I was referring to numerous articles that indicated the alienation of the people involved. It is entirely reasonable to speculate that they might have benefited from being in a smaller environment where they would possibly have not slipped through the cracks, so to speak.

As always Verity, you are a staunch supporter of SL, and that is to be admired.

Ours was one of the 1st communities to be moved to Westfield, as we were in the Oakton HS Pyramid, and had the great pleasure of dealing with Mr. Gibson in 2000.(when he told us that our future was in the west) We built our home 15 years ago. I have a problem with the SB allowing all of the newer homes built after ours to continue feeding into Westfield, causing the overcrowding in the 1st place, but we were never asked to give an opinion on that. In addition, we were not facing a budget crises when Westfield was being funded. We were also never asked for an opinion of why Langley was expanded, at a time when SL was well under capacity.

Do you have an opinion on how this redistricting will be paid for?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Floris Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am curious where the, teachers, materials etc
> > will be coming from, and how it will be paid
> for,
> > to accommodate all of the additional students
> at
> > SL. In addition, there will be the added
> expense
> > of running all of the buses to all of the
> existing
> > schools for the next 3 years. I thought I read
> > somewhere that the County School Board Staff is
> > projecting a $98,000,000 budget short fall in
> the
> > upcoming year.
> >
> > I am sure that many people in the county will
> not
> > be in favor of approving bonds to pay for the
> > shortfall, especially those of us who feel that
> > the SB has shown very poor judgment in how they
> > have spent our money to date.
> >
> > When you add in the fact that all RE property
> tax
> > assessments should show a significant drop in
> > value due to a declining market, it seems that
> we
> > are going to have a major budget crisis on our
> > hands.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
> Were you worried about budget shortfalls when
> Westfield was being made so large when a perfectly
> and soon to be improved school was in your back
> yard? I don't remember any outcries from Floris
> then.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Keeping in mind that this study is dealing with 6
> schools in the western part of the County, why are
> schools not in the study even relevant to the
> discussion? Just because some may wish it does
> not make it so.

The six schools were chosen by the school board, not by an act of God, Congress, or an immutable law of nature. The appropriateness of this choice is relevant to a public discussion of the larger issue of how to solve the problems at South Lakes.

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Restonian Wrote:
> > Anecdote is still not the plural of data.
> >
>
> You keep writing this. To borrow from The
> Princess Bride: I do not think it means what you
> think it means. I think the term is actually "The
> plural of anecdote is not data." Read carefully
> and you'll see it makes much more sense that way.


You're right, I'd completely mangled the statement.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I find it funny that some posters who use every
> opportunity to denigrate the so-called 'liberal'
> education establishment, nevertheless pull out US
> DOE studies when it suits their purposes.

> ... a quick reading of the very
> same studies indicates that all schools should be
> reduced in size, and thus would not Chantilly,
> Westfield, and Oakton also benefit from being
> reduced in size,
>
> ... According to the DOE, does a small
> school benefit when all immediately surrounding
> schools have at least 500 and up to 2,000 more
> general education students such as is the case
> with South Lakes?

> ... How does the relatively small size of South Lakes
> impact extracurricular opportunities for all
> students, which we can all agree are very
> important on today's typical college application?

> ... Keeping in mind that this study is dealing with 6
> schools in the western part of the County, why are
> schools not in the study even relevant to the
> discussion?

SLV,
I am finding it increasingly difficult to follow your train of thought.

Excerpt 1 above: Since I am the poster who quoted the DOE web site, are you addressing your questions to me? If so, please quote out some instances in which I "use every opportunity to denigrate the so-called 'liberal' education establishment."

Excerpt 2:Regarding the size of other schools, I refer you to my post of 3:19 this afternoon. The last line states, "All of these studies support turning Chantilly and Westfield into grade 7-12 secondary schools, but they do NOT support adding more students to South Lakes."

Excerpts 3 and 5: Please make up your mind. Do other FCPS high schools have any relation to South Lakes? If so, then how well IB succeeds at Stuart and Marshall is pertinent to this discussion. If not, then the size of Westfield has nothing to do with successes or failures at South Lakes.

Excerpt 4: According to this year's school size philosophy, smaller schools are BETTER for student extracurricular activities because small schools have less competition to make the football team and the cheer squad.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, you are being much nicer with this new nic.
> Or newish nic. We all appreciate that.


Nicer than what? Who do you think I used to be here?

Dear SL Verity,

Consistent with your post, some recent research has been far less clear about the benefits of small high schools. I apologize for not remembering where I read these articles, but I'm sure someone else will be able to find them and post links. If I recall correctly, the Bill Gates Foundation was rethinking its funding for programs to break large high schools into smaller high schools.

As your post indicates, the main issue is whether South Lakes has enough students to warrant offering more advanced classes plus a good selection of co-curricular and extra-curricular activities. Changing boundaries would help Reston's bright and successful students. Creating a selective IB magnet would help even more.

Montgomery County has about half a dozen schools with open admission IB programs, like the eight Fairfax County IB schools. However, Montgomery County also has a selective IB magnet at Richard Montgomery HS in Rockville. Some of the stronger neighborhood students there who are not part of the magnet reportedly participate in the school's IB Diploma program. According to the school's web site, this IB magnet also substitutes AP Calculus for the IB math courses, then has its IB students take the IB math tests in addition to the AP math tests.

This might be a good model for South Lakes, for many reasons. But unless the Reston community endorses this concept then the School Board's general antipathy towards academically selective programs will ensure that the magnet never happens.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And if we are, then a quick reading of the very
> same studies indicates that all schools should be
> reduced in size, and thus would not Chantilly,
> Westfield, and Oakton also benefit from being
> reduced in size . . .
>
Keep in mind that South Lakes
> has a MMR magnet and a significant ESOL
> population, both of which are not in the general
> education population, and that the actual numbers
> of general education students at South Lakes are
> around 1,150. How does that impact South Lakes'
> ability to offer the same level and magnitude of
> courses to its bright and successful students, who
> should not be ignored in all of this?
>
> How does the relatively small size of South Lakes
> impact extracurricular opportunities for all
> students, which we can all agree are very
> important on today's typical college application?
> What happens to extracurriculars that are
> primarily funded by the parents, when the school
> is full of a disproportionate number of
> disadvantaged students requiring scholarships from
> most Booster Groups in order to even participate
> and thus relatively 'poor' booster budgets, when
> compared to those of surrounding schools?

Here's a link to a blog that seems to have gathered information on how smaller high schools aren't doing quite as well, at least not uniformly, as expected.

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-6z6IhP08cqXp9kfshYQPv87gCfJyFg--?p=375

60M renovation
Millions in lost property values for those redistricted.
Reducing the FRL number from 33 to 25: priceless!

I am sure the people considering relocating to the area will now seriously consider south lakes. Forget that the number of people receiving the FRL is still the same. Nobody will be able to figure that out when they do the research before deciding where to live. Stu really fooled everybody this time.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> abc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has anyone considered that the overwhelmingly
> > large size of Westfield may have negatively
> > impacted recent graduates who now live in
> infamy?
> >
> > ......
> > Cheap shot....shame on you....
>
> I was not taking a cheap shot. I was referring to
> numerous articles that indicated the alienation of
> the people involved. It is entirely reasonable to
> speculate that they might have benefited from
> being in a smaller environment where they would
> possibly have not slipped through the cracks, so
> to speak.

Verity -

Entirely possible that that's correct in their cases. On the other hand, my kid has thrived at Westfield and actually happens to like the fact that Westfield is huge. Likes it that it's so big that, even if there are cliques, he's not even aware of them.

RealityCheck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Keeping in mind that this study is dealing with
> 6
> > schools in the western part of the County, why
> are
> > schools not in the study even relevant to the
> > discussion? Just because some may wish it does
> > not make it so.
>
> The six schools were chosen by the school board,
> not by an act of God, Congress, or an immutable
> law of nature. The appropriateness of this choice
> is relevant to a public discussion of the larger
> issue of how to solve the problems at South Lakes.

Especially since the sainted Stu was stupid enough to state that the politics simply wasn't there to redistrict with Langley and the SB was stupid enough to allow the CIP to claim that Langley needed to be expanded because there was no room in the SL inn.

Maria Allen - I find your post absolutely fascinating (I appreciate the honesty).
And it brings to mind certain observations:

1. Many progressives, and particularly those that teach and administer in public schools, are by their nature inclined to adopt educational "movements" (and one might rightly call them fads) such as everyday math and whole language in lieu of traditional, memorization based math and phonetic learning. This is so because the racial achievement gap is the ten ton elephant in the room when it comes to education, and the adoption of everyday math and whole language just comes all too easily to progressives, who stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that the biggest driver of the achievement gap is a a pernicious cultural factor that they cannot influence (and if they tried, they would have to engage in in troublesome stigmatization), and instead opt for methods they intuit (wrongly) will build self-esteem, feeling good, and hence some sort of improvement. I find it not surprising the degree of resistance that you met - because enterprising middle class to upper middle class parents (like you) find ways to augment the educational gaps such fads engender - and accordingly those middle class parents don't put squeak enough to persuade an ideologically driven administration because they end up getting the job done for their own kids.

2. Let me repeat again - many find Neen abrasive - but she is spot on when it comes to her criticism of prevailing educational fads. Brings to mind the statements of British comedienne Tracey Ullman, seemingly not an intellectual's intellectual - but still with a traditional British education - when asked why she pulled her kid out of a Los Angeles area public school with its similar focus on whole language and everyday math - she mentioned that there was no way to keep her there - she would have been as dumb as a "mudflap". OK, it was an anecdotal comment - and Tracy Ullman is no de Tocqueville in terms of American commentary - but there is little doubt as to the veracity of her impressions.

3. One of the problems that middle or upper middle class progressives or liberals are reluctant to face in their adoption of these "movements" or "fads" is that there is not much downside when the fads, as applied to their own lives or offspring, don't provide benefit - the blunt truth is that they have family structure, assets, and although a dirty secret in politically correct America, fairly high IQ offspring to work with. They survive these things. So what is an only mildly harmful social experiment to them is anything but when it comes to the lower classes - who above all need lots of traditional, hard wired education to move up in stature, and who suffer significantly when they don't receive it. And the lower classes often start out behind - not just in terms of wealth, family structure and assets, but also in terms of IQ and ability - and the inter-generational IQ growth (which is happening in a number of developing countries, and rapidly so) as to the "gap" groups in this country, which we all expected to see occur since the post 60's and civil rights era, just hasn't taken place. When Secretary of Education Paige (and forget about whether you agree with his politics or the administration), offered up an opinion that notwithstanding the billions upon billions spent on the Title 1 program, we have virtually nothing to show for it, it reflects that a genuine tragedy has taken place (and look at Head Start - another multi-billion dollar failure). The point is not to pick on social or educational programs just to do so, but heck, four decades of data ought to tell us that real learning just doesn't take place without mastering important, often repetitive, memorization driven facts and principles, within a disciplined structure that requires students to constantly deal with ego damages and stresses large and small. In other words, it doesn't come easy.

4. I am a realist - the adoption of traditional math teaching and phonetic reading won't solve the minority achievement problem - the biggest issue in education today - but it would help set expectations for what education should be about. There needs to be a massive cultural shift about education - which is why people like Bill Cosby and Juan Williams are receiving public disdain but many positive private whispers. Let's hope those whispers become publicly voiced statements.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear SL Verity,
>
Richard
Montgomery HS in Rockville substitutes AP Calculus
> for the IB math courses, then has its IB students
> take the IB math tests in addition to the AP math
> tests.
>

I've finally heard a really good suggestion on sorting out the IB/AP mess, and it only took Marylanders (who are far from conservative...) to figure it out. Substitution of AP Calc recognizes the fact that the IB math curriculum is simply so far from alignment with US colleges to make it senseless for US math/science types. And, any kid who can hack BC Calc (and Linear/Multivariate if they follow the current Westfield path for 7th grade algebra kids) can do just fine on the IB math tests.

If the purpose of this exercise is to add electives to the IB program at SL instead of adding electives to the general education curriculum, it will be a travesty.

Does anyone know if the culinary arts academy proposed for SL is in addition to the existing programs at Chantilly and Marshall or a relocation of one of those programs?

You have envisioned ANY scenario in which this exercise is not a travesty?


Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the purpose of this exercise is to add
> electives to the IB program at SL instead of
> adding electives to the general education
> curriculum, it will be a travesty.
>
> Does anyone know if the culinary arts academy
> proposed for SL is in addition to the existing
> programs at Chantilly and Marshall or a relocation
> of one of those programs?

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dear SL Verity,
> >
> Richard
> Montgomery HS in Rockville substitutes AP
> Calculus
> > for the IB math courses, then has its IB
> students
> > take the IB math tests in addition to the AP
> math
> > tests.
> >
>
> I've finally heard a really good suggestion on
> sorting out the IB/AP mess, and it only took
> Marylanders (who are far from conservative...) to
> figure it out. Substitution of AP Calc recognizes
> the fact that the IB math curriculum is simply so
> far from alignment with US colleges to make it
> senseless for US math/science types. And, any kid
> who can hack BC Calc (and Linear/Multivariate if
> they follow the current Westfield path for 7th
> grade algebra kids) can do just fine on the IB
> math tests.

The IBO does not permit students to take an IBO test without completing the related IBO course.
"ASSESSMENT. The final assessment on the performance in two final examinations and a portfolio of five pieces of work selected from that completed during the course.
Paper 1 (30%) 2 hours: Twenty compulsory short-response questions based on the core part of the syllabus.
Paper 2 (50%) 3 hours: Five compulsory extended-response questions based on the core part of the syllabus and one extended response question on the sets, relations and groups option.
The portfolio (20%):This is a collection of three pieces of worked completed by the student during the course which must include at least one of the following, a mathematical investigation, extended closed problem solving, mathematical modelling and mathematical research."

Calculus is only a small part of HL math.

Core (required topics)
1. Number and Algebra
2. Functions and Equations
3. Circular Functions and Trigonometry
4. Vector Geometry
5. Matrices and Transformations
6. Statistics
7. Probability
8. Calculus

Option [The school may choose one]
9. Statistics
10. Sets, Relations and Groups
11. Discrete Mathematics
12. Analysis and Approximation
13. Euclidian Geometry and Conic Sections

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
> > ... From what I have read here the children who
> are
> > disadvantaged will have a better chance of
> > learning if they are not congregating in the
> same
> > school. If this is true, then I do not see why
> we
> > shouldn't do it. It improves the outcome. ...
> >
> That is the undocumented claim of one or two
> posters. However, the US Department of Education
> website states disadvantaged children have "a
> better chance of learning" in a smaller school
> (think South Lakes, Marshall, and Stuart) than a
> large school (think Oakton, Chantilly, and
> especially Westfield).
>
> To repeat my earlier post, "Among current research
> findings:
> * Large high schools, particularly those serving
> low-income students, have disproportionately lower
> achievement and higher incidences of violence than
> smaller schools serving similar student
> populations.
> * In small schools, students tend to be more
> satisfied, more academically productive, more
> likely to participate in school activities, better
> behaved, and less likely to drop out than students
> in large schools."
>
> So according to research reported by the US
> Department of Education, disadvantaged children
> are better off if they stay at South Lakes and no
> more additional students are added.

Wow. Even more proof of lack of concern for disadvantaged kids.

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am curious where the, teachers, materials etc
> will be coming from, and how it will be paid for,
> to accommodate all of the additional students at
> SL. In addition, there will be the added expense
> of running all of the buses to all of the existing
> schools for the next 3 years. I thought I read
> somewhere that the County School Board Staff is
> projecting a $98,000,000 budget short fall in the
> upcoming year.
>
> I am sure that many people in the county will not
> be in favor of approving bonds to pay for the
> shortfall, especially those of us who feel that
> the SB has shown very poor judgment in how they
> have spent our money to date.
>
> When you add in the fact that all RE property tax
> assessments should show a significant drop in
> value due to a declining market, it seems that we
> are going to have a major budget crisis on our
> hands.
>
> Any thoughts?

Not a problem. No one reads the school bonds (see the addition to Langley in 2005) and they are always passed overwhelmingly. AND, the board of supervisors will give the schools whatever money they need by raising the tax rate. They're all good democrats on the school board and the board of supervisors, they won't have any problem raising taxes.

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Forum Reader,
>
> Thank you for your reply. If what you write is
> true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it
> seems as if the approach within the school is what
> needs changing. I assume you would suscribe to
> emulating what other schools in similar situations
> have done to help the children at South Lakes.
> Copy what works so to speak. I imagine that there
> are case studies avaialbe to learn from. I am all
> for that of course.

According to Dr.Dale, our staff knows exactly what is being done to help poor children in Richmond, Newport News, Chesterfield, and the rest of the state that does better than FCPS. There are 10 poor districts in Virginia whose Black students outscore Black students in FCPS. Our staff has studied what those districts have done. Dr. Dale has stated that we will NOT do what they do here in FC. I suppose we're just too good, too superior, to do what will actually help poor Black kids. Redistricting South Lakes won't help them either, but no one in FCPS cares about that. It's more important that middle class kids can get guitar lessons and jewelry making classes than Black kids are educated.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the purpose of this exercise is to add
> electives to the IB program at SL instead of
> adding electives to the general education
> curriculum, it will be a travesty.
>
> Does anyone know if the culinary arts academy
> proposed for SL is in addition to the existing
> programs at Chantilly and Marshall or a relocation
> of one of those programs?

Who do you think the redstricting is for? Lower end kids, or those in the IB program? What electives are you hoping that South Lakes will get? How many general education students are there? Why do electives need to be aimed at them?

>>>>Posting anonymously makes me uncomfortable; I felt cowardly when I did it once a few months ago and as a result, haven't posted since.<<<<

Hahahahaha...........

It is nice of you to post under your name about Everyday Math. You might want to share this story with Dr.Dale since he recently told me, at his community/business advisory, that he has never heard ANYONE complain about Everyday math. Not one. Ever.

My educator friends in Richmond have explained some of the reasons for differences in success. Schools in Richmond are very different from those in Fairfax. While the Richmond school district is almost entirely comprised of African American children from poor to lower middle class families, low-achieving students in Fairfax are educated with students from many different financial circumstances and backgrounds. It is actually easier to implement strict educational exercises in the schools made up of primarily disadvantaged kids, because the needs of other 'customers' do not need to be met at the same time. In order to do what Richmond has done, entire groups of students would need to be segregated within each school, or more drastically, between schools. That is not something that would easily pass muster in a County such as Fairfax. South Lakes and schools like it are in the unique position of having students from every socio-economic level imaginable, as well as students from varied cultural and racial backgrounds. Richmond students represent a pretty homogeneous group. BTW, Richmond is my home town.

I'm not trying to provide excuses for FCPS, but just to explain some of the differences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2008 12:37AM by SLVerity.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > APorIBMom Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Dear SL Verity,
> > >
> > Richard
> > Montgomery HS in Rockville substitutes AP
> > Calculus
> > > for the IB math courses, then has its IB
> > students
> > > take the IB math tests in addition to the AP
> > math
> > > tests.
> > >
> >
> > I've finally heard a really good suggestion on
> > sorting out the IB/AP mess, and it only took
> > Marylanders (who are far from conservative...)
> to
> > figure it out. Substitution of AP Calc
> recognizes
> > the fact that the IB math curriculum is simply
> so
> > far from alignment with US colleges to make it
> > senseless for US math/science types. And, any
> kid
> > who can hack BC Calc (and Linear/Multivariate
> if
> > they follow the current Westfield path for 7th
> > grade algebra kids) can do just fine on the IB
> > math tests.
>
> The IBO does not permit students to take an IBO
> test without completing the related IBO course.
> "ASSESSMENT. The final assessment on the
> performance in two final examinations and a
> portfolio of five pieces of work selected from
> that completed during the course.
> Paper 1 (30%) 2 hours: Twenty compulsory
> short-response questions based on the core part of
> the syllabus.
> Paper 2 (50%) 3 hours: Five compulsory
> extended-response questions based on the core part
> of the syllabus and one extended response question
> on the sets, relations and groups option.
> The portfolio (20%):This is a collection of three
> pieces of worked completed by the student during
> the course which must include at least one of the
> following, a mathematical investigation, extended
> closed problem solving, mathematical modelling and
> mathematical research."
>
> Calculus is only a small part of HL math.
>
> Core (required topics)
> 1. Number and Algebra
> 2. Functions and Equations
> 3. Circular Functions and Trigonometry
> 4. Vector Geometry
> 5. Matrices and Transformations
> 6. Statistics
> 7. Probability
> 8. Calculus
>
> Option
> 9. Statistics
> 10. Sets, Relations and Groups
> 11. Discrete Mathematics
> 12. Analysis and Approximation
> 13. Euclidian Geometry and Conic Sections

1) If Richard Montgomery gets away with it, how do they do it?
2) Other than hard core Statistics, just what of the above isn't in the normal honors program before Calc?
3) I suspect my non-IB kid would do fine on the IB "papers" which are really tests in normal speak. Blindfolded, at twenty paces, with two hands tied behind his back.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Entirely possible that that's correct in their
> cases. On the other hand, my kid has thrived at
> Westfield and actually happens to like the fact
> that Westfield is huge. Likes it that it's so big
> that, even if there are cliques, he's not even
> aware of them.

I am sure that your child and many others love Westfield just as it is. My kids loved South Lakes, too. I was quite happy with the size of the school from a social perspective, but the reality is that in Fairfax County classes are apportioned relative to the number of children signing up and it simply won't do for South Lakes students to be missing the boat when it comes to all of the things I mentioned in my lengthy post above.

Forum Reader, numerous citations have been posted here that substantiate the theory that lower income students do better in schools where they comprise a smaller portion of the total population - go back and read some of Clarifier's posts. Additionally, those schools are less likely to lose those middle class families that are the lynch-pin of any good school. It's a win-win for everyone.

Take a quick look at the attached file that relates to FRM students and their performance on SOL tests at each high school in the FCPS system. Though there are a few exceptions (Stuart being the most notable), the majority of high scores are from schools with a smaller percentage of FRM (15% or under).

Just like the day care vs. at-home-mom dilemma, for every study that you site, there will be others refuting yours. On this I think we can agree, so I propose that we agree to disagree.

Westfield Dad presented some very interesting information regarding IB in Montgomery County. You immediately refuted him, though I think he was on to something that is directly in line with what many South Lakes parents have been saying.

I am curious to know how current your familiarity with IB really is. Some requirements have changed as IB has been implemented at more American Schools. For example, CAS requirements changed in the one year that separates my two children. Perhaps they know something in Maryland that you don't. Is that possible?
Attachments:

SLVerity Wrote:
> My educator friends in Richmond have explained
> some of the reasons for differences in success.
> Schools in Richmond are very different from those
> in Fairfax. ...

----------
Now please tell us how the schools in Prince William are different.

SLVerity Wrote:

> ... in Fairfax County classes are
> apportioned relative to the number of children
> signing up and it simply won't do for South Lakes
> students to be missing the boat when it comes to
> all of the things I mentioned in my lengthy post
> above.

Please specify. Identify an IB school in FCPS the size you want South Lakes to attain and list the classes offered at that school, then compare that list to what South Lakes offers now.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Take a quick look at the attached file that
> relates to FRM students and their performance on
> SOL tests at each high school in the FCPS system.
> Though there are a few exceptions (Stuart being
> the most notable), the majority of high scores are
> from schools with a smaller percentage of FRM (15%
> or under).

It would seem this chart proves that getting SL FRL down to 25%, as Option 5 does, will have no impact on the academic achievement of its FRL population.

Note the scores at Herndon, Hayfield, Edison, West Potomac.

Please remember also that to pass a student must get a 70% correct, the letter grade equivalent of a D. Not a breath taking level of achievement.

Stu ain't doin' this for the poor kids I guess.

So who's this for any way?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2008 11:51PM by Thomas More.

Dear FR,

Did you not read my post just prior where I asked you to accept that we just agree to disagree? Fact: South Lakes is the only IB school in Fairfax that does not offer any AP classes. Check for yourself. Parents would certainly like the school to offer more of those. It is not up to me to select course offerings for the school, but rather up to current and future students and their families. My children have graduated.

Look at the demographics of Prince William schools. They are entirely different from those in the city of Richmond. You prove to me how they are the same. Please. I'll be waiting.

Also, please tell me what direct experience you have had in dealing with educational issues in an IB school. Did your children attend an IB school? Do you teach in an IB school? Do you set advanced curriculum for a school system?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2008 11:57PM by SLVerity.

SLVerity Wrote:
> Forum Reader, numerous citations have been posted
> here that substantiate the theory that lower
> income students do better in schools where they
> comprise a smaller portion of the total population
> - go back and read some of Clarifier's posts. ...
>
> I am curious to know how current your familiarity
> with IB really is. ...

SLV, this is a very long thread. Do us all a favor and recap your quotes with the sources, preferably online sites so we can all read them for ourselves.

In particular, since I have quoted the IB's position on IB assessments that I found, I look forward to your posting a more recent official IB website that says students may take IB HL math exams without taking the IB HL course.

Perhaps Montgomery County instructors teach the AP Calculus material along with IB HL material. I don't know; I have not visited Montgomery County to find out.

Which reminds me - how are you doing on researching Stuart, an FCPS IB high school of about the same size as South Lakes but, as shown by your chart, has a much higher percentage of FRM students and is markedly better in their SOL results?

Gee, why didn't I see that? What's the point? It makes no sense to bring the lowest achievers among us to a minimum standard. Let's just practice that ol' soft bigotry of no expectations and say what the hey. Cancel the Boundary Study while we're at it.

I am so relieved to be done with this!!!!

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My educator friends in Richmond have explained
> some of the reasons for differences in success.
> Schools in Richmond are very different from those
> in Fairfax. While the Richmond school district is
> almost entirely comprised of African American
> children from poor to lower middle class families,
> African American students in Fairfax are educated
> with students from many different financial
> circumstances and backgrounds. It is actually
> easier to implement strict educational exercises
> in the schools made up of primarily disadvantaged
> kids, because the needs of other 'customers' do
> not need to be met at the same time. In order to
> do what Richmond has done, entire groups of
> students would need to be segregated within each
> school, or more drastically, between schools.
> That is not something that would easily pass
> muster in a County such as Fairfax. South Lakes
> and schools like it are in the unique position of
> having students from every socio-economic level
> imaginable, as well as students from varied
> cultural and racial backgrounds. Richmond
> students represent a pretty homogeneous group.
> BTW, Richmond is my home town.
>
> I'm not trying to provide excuses for FCPS, but
> just to explain some of the differences.


That is EXACTLY what needs to happen. Students SHOULD be segregated based on ability. Being PC and including everyone in a class to make everyone feel they are equal (and I am not talking about socioeconomic status) results in someone getting short changed. Either the brightest kids are being held back because the teacher wants to make sure the slower kids "get it" or the other way around. I do have to admit (and no, I'm not jumping on the SL bandwagon by any means) that it is more difficult to do this in a small school, but it just doesn't seem to happen at any school unless the student is in AP. There are also a lot of highly intelligent students that just don't want to take AP or IB classes and deserve a good education with other students at their level and not have to sit with remedial students.

Forum Reader :

I don't have to research Stuart, but Bruce Butler has, and has also met with numerous educators from Richmond and other successful school districts. He is implementing exactly the types of things that they recommended. Additionally, he is working very closely with new leadership at Hughes to reach at-risk children sooner and begin implementing success measures at an earlier age.

How many years would you guess it takes a new administrator and his staff to turn a school around. Would you give them a few years, or do you expect instantaneous results? What is your understanding?

Look at the Reading and Literature scores at South Lakes, shown above. Those have already improved. New science teachers have replaced dead wood teachers, so I suspect that those scores will be improving as well.

You know, I fully believe that our students can and will achieve. Call me a Pollyanna, if you like.:)

BTW, I can't post the sources that Clarifier posted, as I did not download them, so I can't help you there.

FME Mom:

I support targeting at-risk students with intense measures designed to bring up their achievement, and those will not be needed with all students.

I went to an elementary school where students were separated by ability. I think there were 3 or 4 levels. It had advantages and disadvantages. Biggest disadvantage: I'm not sure if enough was expected from the lowest performers and they certainly were pegged. Advantages: It certainly was good for those in the middle, and at the top. Kids could also easily move up by achieving.

Edited sentence from prior post: While the Richmond school district is almost entirely comprised of African American children from poor to lower middle class families, low-achieving students in Fairfax are educated with students from many different financial circumstances and backgrounds



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2008 12:44AM by SLVerity.

Forum Reader,

The IB Organization does not like it when US high schools don't follow their prescribed format. But, US high schools nonetheless tweak the IB program - a fact that was noted with disapproval in the same book about the history of IB that I believe you quoted many pages ago. Do you think the IBO would be thrilled that SL and HL classes were being combined? That some 10th graders take SL classes? That one high school has two teachers who share the IB Coordinator job? I doubt it.

Montgomery County's IB magnet not only has information on its web site showing that it has IB Diploma candidates take AP Calculus BC classes instead of the HL Math class, but I also have heard from friends in MD that this is what happens.

The City of Falls Church offers AP Calculus AB and AP Calculus BC, and its students can opt to take one of those AP math classes in lieu of IB Math. Its students who want to take IB HL Math are required to take AP Calculus BC too.

The problem here is FCPS staff, not the IBO. For years, FCPS staff have refused to allow IB high schools to offer AP Calculus BC. It would imply that IB HL Math is not just like AP Calculus BC. They're reluctant to change their tune now, and that's why South Lakes and other IB high schools in FCPS don't get AP Calc BC.

Forum Reader Wrote:
> The IBO does not permit students to take an IBO
> test without completing the related IBO course.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FME Mom:
>
> I agree with you, to a certain extent, but don't
> see it happening anywhere in Fairfax County any
> time soon. I went to an elementary school where
> students were separated by ability. I think there
> were 3 or 4 levels. It had advantages and
> disadvantages. Biggest disadvantage: I'm not
> sure if enough was expected from the lowest
> performers. Advantages: It certainly was good for
> those in the middle, and at the top.
>
> Edited sentence from prior post: While the
> Richmond school district is almost entirely
> comprised of African American children from poor
> to lower middle class families, low-achieving
> students in Fairfax are educated with students
> from many different financial circumstances and
> backgrounds

I think that if enough parents force the issue, it CAN happen. I am very active in my child's education, and will continue to be active in every school she attends. Bottom line, the standard curriculum should be covered and the same expectations should be placed on the remedial students as they do need to meet the minimum standard. I also believe teachers need to start failing students. There are too many instances where students are passed through and have not earned the right to receive a diploma. Shoot, just visit some MySpace pages of teenagers. Their writing and spelling is HORRIBLE!

If this redistricting happens and my child ends up at South Lakes, Bruce Butler and I will get really intimate as I have a lot of ideas and opinions, and will not tolerate anything less than the best.

SLVerity Wrote:
> Dear FR,
>
> Did you not read my post just prior where I asked
> you to accept that we just agree to disagree?
> Fact: South Lakes is the only IB school in Fairfax
> that does not offer any AP classes. Check for
> yourself. ...

--------
I am not able at midnight on a Saturday night to call each school and ask what they are teaching this year, but I am sure you are eager to share your results with us.

In the meantime I went to http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/advepd.htm then clicked on "list of AP classes." That gave me a chart of "Fairfax County Public Schools AP COURSES OFFERED 2006-­07." [Please advise if you found a similar chart for this school year.]

FCPS IB high schools and the AP courses listed for each:
Annandale - English Lit, Government, Statistics
Edison - NONE LISTED
Lee - Statistics
Marshall - NONE LISTED
Mt Vernon - NONE LISTED
Robinson - AB Calc, Comp Sci A, Eng Lit, Gov't, Stat, US History
South Lakes - NONE LISTED
Stuart - Government

So a quick online fact check indicates that last year four of eight IB high schools offered no IB courses, none of them offered any AP science, and only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and not BC Calculus.

Dear SL Verity,

Thank you for this background about the Richmond public schools. It suggests that if Fairfax County staff wanted to do the best job for lower-achieving students, it would group those students in separate classes and give them the type of strict exercises that work well in Richmond.


SL Verity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>It is actually
> easier to implement strict educational exercises
> in the schools made up of primarily disadvantaged
> kids, because the needs of other 'customers' do
> not need to be met at the same time. In order to
> do what Richmond has done, entire groups of
> students would need to be segregated within each
> school, or more drastically, between schools.
> That is not something that would easily pass
> muster in a County such as Fairfax.

>>>>because enterprising middle class to upper middle class parents (like you) find ways to augment the educational gaps such fads engender - and accordingly those middle class parents don't put squeak enough to persuade an ideologically driven administration because they end up getting the job done for their own kids.<<<<

That's exactly what I heard all over Vienna and McLean when the school board was adopting Everyday Math. They kept saying "it doesn't matter, I'll just hire a math tutor" or "it doesn't matter, my husband teaches them math' or "they go to Kumon math on Saturday". I was appalled by their attitude, their lack of concern for children without those resources. Middle and upper class parents are used to supplementing education at home with tutors, classes, and camps. So they aren't as effected by these flakey programs as children who need to learn something in school and don't have the resources to be educated after school ends.
And our administrators can't figure out why the gap persists?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > Dear FR,
> >
> > Did you not read my post just prior where I
> asked
> > you to accept that we just agree to disagree?
> > Fact: South Lakes is the only IB school in
> Fairfax
> > that does not offer any AP classes. Check for
> > yourself. ...
>
> --------
> I am not able at midnight on a Saturday night to
> call each school and ask what they are teaching
> this year, but I am sure you are eager to share
> your results with us.
>
> In the meantime I went to then clicked on "list
> of AP classes." That gave me a chart of "Fairfax
> County Public Schools AP COURSES OFFERED
> 2006-­07."
>
> FCPS IB high schools and the AP courses listed for
> each:
> Annandale - English Lit, Government, Statistics
> Edison - NONE LISTED
> Lee - Statistics
> Marshall - NONE LISTED
> Mt Vernon - NONE LISTED
> Robinson - AB Calc, Comp Sci A, Eng Lit, Gov't,
> Stat, US History
> South Lakes - NONE LISTED
> Stuart - Government
>
> So a quick online fact check indicates that last
> year four of eight IB high schools offered no IB
> courses, none of them offered any AP science, and
> only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and
> not BC Calculus.

WOW! I am shocked that we have so many schools that don't even offer BC calculus. That's a rather large handicap for any student who hopes to major in engineering in college. Or any hard science. That's awful.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
>
> The IB Organization does not like it when US high
> schools don't follow their prescribed format.
> But, US high schools nonetheless tweak the IB
> program - a fact that was noted with disapproval
> in the same book about the history of IB that I
> believe you quoted many pages ago. Do you think
> the IBO would be thrilled that SL and HL classes
> were being combined? That some 10th graders take
> SL classes? That one high school has two teachers
> who share the IB Coordinator job? I doubt it.
>
> Montgomery County's IB magnet not only has
> information on its web site showing that it has IB
> Diploma candidates take AP Calculus BC classes
> instead of the HL Math class, but I also have
> heard from friends in MD that this is what
> happens.
>
> The City of Falls Church offers AP Calculus AB and
> AP Calculus BC, and its students can opt to take
> one of those AP math classes in lieu of IB Math.
> Its students who want to take IB HL Math are
> required to take AP Calculus BC too.
>
> The problem here is FCPS staff, not the IBO. For
> years, FCPS staff have refused to allow IB high
> schools to offer AP Calculus BC. It would imply
> that IB HL Math is not just like AP Calculus BC.
> They're reluctant to change their tune now, and
> that's why South Lakes and other IB high schools
> in FCPS don't get AP Calc BC.
>
That is a HUGE disservice to any student who hopes to major in engineering in college. He/She will be well behind the other students, many of whom took AP Cal BC in 10th or 11th grade and college level math beyond that for a year or two, while the IB students have yet to take Cal BC. Those students simply won't be competitive in engineering and math programs. I am really shocked that FCPS is doing this in all of our IB schools while all the AP schools have Cal BC and now many now have multi var and linnear algebra, the college courses beyond Cal BC. It really is not fair to those kids who got stuck in IB schools. No wonder so many of them apply to TJ. And too bad there isn't another TJ for them.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader :
>
> I don't have to research Stuart, but Bruce Butler
> has, and has also met with numerous educators from
> Richmond and other successful school districts.
> He is implementing exactly the types of things
> that they recommended. Additionally, he is
> working very closely with new leadership at Hughes
> to reach at-risk children sooner and begin
> implementing success measures at an earlier age.
>
> How many years would you guess it takes a new
> administrator and his staff to turn a school
> around. Would you give them a few years, or do
> you expect instantaneous results? What is your
> understanding?
>
> Look at the Reading and Literature scores at South
> Lakes, shown above. Those have already improved.
> New science teachers have replaced dead wood
> teachers, so I suspect that those scores will be
> improving as well.
>
> You know, I fully believe that our students can
> and will achieve. Call me a Pollyanna, if you
> like.:)
>
> BTW, I can't post the sources that Clarifier
> posted, as I did not download them, so I can't
> help you there.

I can predict that Mr.Butler will do amazingly well in just one year, 2008-2009. Then no one will need to worry about the kids on the bottom, they'll be well hidden by the influx from the redistricting. Oh happy day! Instant improvement!

You anti-IB folks have not a clue what you're talking about when it comes to IB math. SFU, please, until you get it. My son got a 6 in HL Math, with PLENTY of calculus. He's headed toward a physics major in college (minoring in philosophy), and was AHEAD of his BC Calc classmates. I have a suspicion most of you couldn't trig your way out of paper bag as you blather about IB courses you have never cracked a book on.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Take a quick look at the attached file that
> > relates to FRM students and their performance
> on
> > SOL tests at each high school in the FCPS
> system.
> > Though there are a few exceptions (Stuart being
> > the most notable), the majority of high scores
> are
> > from schools with a smaller percentage of FRM
> (15%
> > or under).
>
> It would seem this chart proves that getting SL
> FRL down to 25%, as Option 5 does, will have no
> impact on the academic achievement of its FRL
> population.
>
> Note the scores at Herndon, Hayfield, Edison, West
> Potomac.
>
> Please remember also that to pass a student must
> get a 70% correct, the letter grade equivalent of
> a D. Not a breath taking level of achievement.
>
> Stu ain't doin' this for the poor kids I guess.
>
> So who's this for any way?

That's been my question of late too. Just who will get more classes? IB students get ALL of their classes, many in very small classes. it won't help the poor kids to put more kids in their classes, smaller schools are better for poor kids. So, who will benefit?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can predict that Mr.Butler will do amazingly
> well in just one year, 2008-2009. Then no one
> will need to worry about the kids on the bottom,
> they'll be well hidden by the influx from the
> redistricting. Oh happy day! Instant improvement!

The projected 226 freshman won't have much impact in 2008-09.

So, where are we after all this noise and fury?

Because of Gibson’s illegal January 2003 promise to some parents of Aldrin and Armstrong, and the collusion of the South Lakes Boundary Study Group, one of the potentially legitimate outcomes of this process, a united Reston whose children all attend one high school, will not be achieved.

And because of Strauss’ intransigence, elementary schools now going to SL that could have raised FRL percentages at Langley and Madison high schools to the County average and elementary schools from the Langley and Madison attendance areas that could have lowered FRL at South Lakes and Herndon to levels that would have a significant impact on the achievement of those kids, will not be redistricted and neither of those worthy goals can result from this process.

Westfield (based on new housing) will still have almost 3000 kids. South Lakes (also based on new housing) will be over enrolled as will Madison and Chantilly.

It appears that the only thing this exercise achieves, besides setting neighbor against neighbor, is to make the South Lakes football team potentially competitive in the Concorde District sometime after 2012 and to add a few IB HL courses for the less than 5% of SL kids who take those courses.

If that’s all there is to this exercise, a pox on all their houses.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> So a quick online fact check indicates that last
> year four of eight IB high schools offered no IB
> courses, none of them offered any AP science, and
> only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and
> not BC Calculus.

Why are you looking at last year? We are talking about the here and now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2008 09:32AM by SLVerity.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, where are we after all this noise and fury?
>
> Because of Gibson’s illegal January 2003 promise
> to some parents of Aldrin and Armstrong, and the
> collusion of the South Lakes Boundary Study Group,
> one of the potentially legitimate outcomes of this
> process, a united Reston whose children all attend
> one high school, will not be achieved.
>
> And because of Strauss’ intransigence, elementary
> schools now going to SL that could have raised FRL
> percentages at Langley and Madison high schools to
> the County average and elementary schools from the
> Langley and Madison attendance areas that could
> have lowered FRL at South Lakes and Herndon to
> levels that would have a significant impact on the
> achievement of those kids, will not be
> redistricted and neither of those worthy goals can
> result from this process.
>
> Westfield (based on new housing) will still have
> almost 3000 kids. South Lakes (also based on new
> housing) will be over enrolled as will Madison and
> Chantilly.
>
> It appears that the only thing this exercise
> achieves, besides setting neighbor against
> neighbor, is to make the South Lakes football team
> potentially competitive in the Concorde District
> sometime after 2012 and to add a few IB HL courses
> for the less than 5% of SL kids who take those
> courses.
>
> If that’s all there is to this exercise, a pox on
> all their houses.

Gibson and Strauss did the ground rules. Almost 50% of the high schools in this county will have been in boundary processes over the last few years. West Springfield had a solid sending area and the some mucked with that [including Gibson] to get more people out of Lee. At the bottom of this county in each corner are some isolated areas. Last year Gibson advocated for the people SE of South County living on Mason Neck which is so isolated it has a federal burro farm to be bussed past the South County area to Hayfield in favor of those who could reasonably go elsewhere but were in more of a dense suburban core.

They might have even ended up bussing walkers to another school for gerrymandering. Areas have to be defined by legal busses v unmandated courtesy busses in boundary processes.


So you have school board members who will draw a circle around a school then bus outlying areas ridiculous distances.

It's like some areas are not part of FCPS. South Lakes boundary group took whatever was offered. If some live in the Forest Edge attendance area I really cannot understand the sell-out on Aldrin and a portion of Langley irrespective of who stays at Herndon high school.

If your 10 year old can ride a bike or trick or treat next door in a residential area then it's also something to go into a boundary process. If Grandma can walk the dog from the house over to the field to watch little Stu's t-ball game then granny's house should be considered for that field's elementary school.

Sully offered up fringe areas rather than any changes in core Chantilly areas that are almost if not equidistant to Westfield. Westfield was supposed to be a secondary school according to Rumberger in a Connection article. I'd like to see a scenario where that is a secondary school and a middle school is converted to a dual existence as an academy/vo-tech and adult ed center.

The airport should be removed from Floris' attendance area and it is grossly unfair to put it in for that school.

South Lakes DOES NOT even market it's IB higher level diploma program to ANY RESIDENCE in the Langley pyramid.

Marshall sells itself to Kilmer and Longfellow [big fat GT centers]. FCPS purposefully steers kids to Marshall bypassing South Lakes. This link is to the IB and AP official student transfer list. FCPS employees do not type the word South Lakes in relation to Langley despite the location of residences. So FCPS set up a situation where kids drive through or get bussed through the South Lakes attendance area to go to other schools:

http://www.fcps.edu/ss/student-transfer/infofiles/APandIB-list.pdf

"A parent or guardian can request a student transfer for his or her child to enroll in an Advanced Placement (AP) or
International Baccalaureate (IB) program at a school with space available that is closest to the student’s residence or base
school."

SLVerity needs another cup of coffee and scribbles:

"Why are you looking at last year? We are talking about the here and now."

Your point is what, exactly?

a) the classes offered change dramatically year over year? That's not what I've seen in FCPS.
or
b) the information for this year is readily available? If so, how?
or
c) you couldn't understand the part where the poster went to the trouble to try to post verifiable information, rather than just make up an opinion, and then note that it must be right, "just look back at previous posts."

This poster went to the trouble to find real data accurate as of 6 months ago. They don't deserve your scorn.

For the record, I agree with you that FCPS IB schools should offer more AP classes. I

SLVerity Wrote:
> Why are you looking at last year? We are talking
> about the here and now.

Please re-read and respond to the first two paragraphs of that post. (The very first sentence answers your question.) To make it easy on you I will re-post it in its entirety:

"I am not able at midnight on a Saturday night to call each school and ask what they are teaching this year, but I am sure you are eager to share your results with us.

In the meantime I went to http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/advepd.htm then clicked on "list of AP classes." That gave me a chart of "Fairfax County Public Schools AP COURSES OFFERED 2006-­07." [Please advise if you found a similar chart for this school year.]

FCPS IB high schools and the AP courses listed for each:
Annandale - English Lit, Government, Statistics
Edison - NONE LISTED
Lee - Statistics
Marshall - NONE LISTED
Mt Vernon - NONE LISTED
Robinson - AB Calc, Comp Sci A, Eng Lit, Gov't, Stat, US History
South Lakes - NONE LISTED
Stuart - Government

So a quick online fact check indicates that last year four of eight IB high schools offered no IB courses, none of them offered any AP science, and only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and not BC Calculus."

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > Why are you looking at last year? We are
> talking
> > about the here and now.
>
> Please re-read and respond to the first two
> paragraphs of that post. (The very first sentence
> answers your question.) To make it easy on you I
> will re-post it in its entirety:
>
> "I am not able at midnight on a Saturday night to
> call each school and ask what they are teaching
> this year, but I am sure you are eager to share
> your results with us.
>
> In the meantime I went to
> http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/advepd.htm
> then clicked on "list of AP classes." That gave me
> a chart of "Fairfax County Public Schools AP
> COURSES OFFERED 2006-­07."
>
> FCPS IB high schools and the AP courses listed for
> each:
> Annandale - English Lit, Government, Statistics
> Edison - NONE LISTED
> Lee - Statistics
> Marshall - NONE LISTED
> Mt Vernon - NONE LISTED
> Robinson - AB Calc, Comp Sci A, Eng Lit, Gov't,
> Stat, US History
> South Lakes - NONE LISTED
> Stuart - Government
>
> So a quick online fact check indicates that last
> year four of eight IB high schools offered no IB
> courses, none of them offered any AP science, and
> only super-sized Robinson offered Calculus, and
> not BC Calculus."


I am not sure, but doesn't Woodson have IB AND AP programs? It certainly can be possible for a high school to have both programs offered, can it?

"A parent or guardian can request a student transfer for his or her child to enroll in an Advanced Placement (AP) or
International Baccalaureate (IB) program at a school with space available that is closest to the student’s residence or base
school."

What if there is no space available? As I believe there will be numerous applicants for AP out of SL.

MI Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "A parent or guardian can request a student
> transfer for his or her child to enroll in an
> Advanced Placement (AP) or
> International Baccalaureate (IB) program at a
> school with space available that is closest to the
> student’s residence or base
> school."
>
> What if there is no space available? As I believe
> there will be numerous applicants for AP out of
> SL.


This is why SL should have thought about that way before the boundary study even started.

taxpayer Wrote:
> ... Almost
> 50% of the high schools in this county will have
> been in boundary processes over the last few
> years. ...
>
> ... Westfield was
> supposed to be a secondary school according to
> Rumberger in a Connection article. I'd like to
> see a scenario where that is a secondary school
> and a middle school is converted to a dual
> existence as an academy/vo-tech and adult ed
> center.
>
> The airport should be removed from Floris'
> attendance area and it is grossly unfair to put it
> in for that school.
>
> ... This link is to the IB and
> AP official student transfer list.

You offer several good points in your post.

Re: Westfield. Can you post a link to that Connection article?

Can you elaborate on why it is unfair to put the runways in the Floris area? Do you mean the airport separates Floris neighborhoods?

Arguably the most important paragraph of the new CIP contains this excerpt: "Middle school capacity will exceed enrollment by 2,014 student spaces in the 2008-2009 school year. This capacity surplus will increase to approximately 2,146 middle school student spaces in the 2012-13 school year. High school capacity will exceed enrollment by approximately 3,107 student spaces in the 2008-09 school year. Projections indicate high school capacity will exceed membership by 4,058 student spaces in the 2012-13 school year."

With the equivalent of two empty middle schools and two empty high schools in September 2012, FCPS has the space to convert both Chantilly and Wakefield to secondary schools. This conversion will significant boundary changes.

If 2,000 is the ideal FCPS high school size, with an acceptable range of 1,700 to 2,300, then it is logical to have middle schools of 850-1150.

While the high schools are being redistricted, I believe all FCPS pyramids should be given matching high school/middle school boundaries. (This applies to the current South Lakes discussion as well.) At a guess Franklin would belong to Oakton and Carson would be the "odd man out." An "academy/vo-tech" is one option for its reuse. Another option is to make it (dare I say it?) an IB magnet. A third option would be to convert it to an elementary school, thereby saving construction dollars.

All of which provide reasons not to redistrict South Lakes at this time.

Forum reader sees extra space, and proposes yanking 1700+ high school students out of the Westfield [assuming that's what "wakefield" means, since there is a Wakefield high school, but its in Arlington]/ Chantilly area, replacing them with middle school kids, with the result that Rachel Carson is not used.

The problem with this line of thinking is that the excess capacity would still be there, just in different places...and the disruption would be immense. That sort of thinking would get Forum reader a job at FCPS facilities planning, or even a position on the school board. Let's hope they don't apply :)

For example, where would assign those 1700 high schoolers to? The only schools with significant excess capacity are on the east and south sides of the county. You'd have to redraw every boundary of at-capacity schools in the middle of the county to get the students to where the space is, resulting in most districts being shifted north or west of the the current boundaries. The would produce longer bus rides and more cases where people who live near one school are bussed to a farther away school. (Essentially, more districts would look like Oakton does now.) Many districts would see 30% or more shift in attendance area due to domino effects.

Let's not do that.

Baffled Wrote:
> I am not sure, but doesn't Woodson have IB AND AP
> programs? It certainly can be possible for a high
> school to have both programs offered, can it?

Short answer: No, Woodson does not have both AP and IB.

Longer answer: Woodson and South Lakes were given IB at the same time (despite SLVerity's erroneous claims to the contrary - see example posted December 20, 2007 05:19PM). Woodson parents were concerned from the start that they would lose their AP courses. The then-Woodson principal, Gary Miller, had told the PTSA that Woodson would keep its AP courses. When the Woodson community learned that was not true, an Advanced Course Advisory Committee was formed with students, staff, and parents.

Several members of this Advisory Committee, including both IB and AP proponents, tried to create a mutually acceptable compromise which would keep both programs. However, FCPS Central Staff stated, “Because of scheduling and staffing issues, a school must choose to be either an IB diploma or an AP diploma school. AP diploma schools will not offer IB courses and IB Diploma schools will only offer a few AP courses that do not duplicate IB offerings.” [Smith, Janie, Director, FCPS Office of High School Instruction and K-12 Curriculum Services. “For Your Information: Handouts on IB and AP Diploma Programs.” Memorandum dated October 6, 1999.]

After many meetings over a period of several months, and intense evaluation of the pros and cons of both programs, the Committee voted for AP instead of IB. The Woodson PTSA endorsed the Committee's recommendation. [I no longer see the final reports online, but I downloaded them at the time and can post them, or at least excerpts, if anyone is interested.]

Since some Woodson IB Diploma Candidates had already started their programme, they were grandfathered and for two years Woodson had both AP and IB grads. During that period, Woodson suffered the same sort of combined courses that South Lakes has now. Since then, a few Woodson students who still opt for IB pupil-place to adjacent Robinson or Annandale.

---------
School systems that spend more per pupil and can afford to offer many small classes sometimes have both programs, but within FCPS, if you want a decent AP program, you’ll have to get rid of IB.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum reader sees extra space, and proposes
> yanking 1700+ high school students out of the
> Westfield / Chantilly area, replacing them with
> middle school kids, with the result that Rachel
> Carson is not used.
>
> The problem with this line of thinking is that the
> excess capacity would still be there, just in
> different places...and the disruption would be
> immense. That sort of thinking would get Forum
> reader a job at FCPS facilities planning, or even
> a position on the school board. Let's hope they
> don't apply :)
>
> For example, where would assign those 1700 high
> schoolers to? The only schools with significant
> excess capacity are on the east and south sides of
> the county. You'd have to redraw every boundary
> of at-capacity schools in the middle of the county
> to get the students to where the space is,
> resulting in most districts being shifted north or
> west of the the current boundaries. The would
> produce longer bus rides and more cases where
> people who live near one school are bussed to a
> farther away school. (Essentially, more districts
> would look like Oakton does now.) Many districts
> would see 30% or more shift in attendance area due
> to domino effects.
>
> Let's not do that.

I can see how my post was confusing. Yes, I meant Westfield, not Wakefield. Thank you for allowing me to correct that typo.

I was responding to taxpayer who posted at January 06, 2008 09:40AM, "... Westfield was supposed to be a secondary school according to Rumberger in a Connection article. I'd like to see a scenario where that is a secondary school and a middle school is converted to a dual existence as an academy/vo-tech and adult ed center. ..."

I simply drafted such a scenario for taxpayer, based on this year's model of the 2,000 student high school. I did not say this is an optimum solution.

Shall we then throw out the ideal of the 2,000 student high school? OK, fine, but that takes the heart out of the South Lakes argument. The result is the same: put the current South Lakes redistricting on hold.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MI Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "A parent or guardian can request a student
> > transfer for his or her child to enroll in an
> > Advanced Placement (AP) or
> > International Baccalaureate (IB) program at a
> > school with space available that is closest to
> the
> > student’s residence or base
> > school."
> >
> > What if there is no space available? As I
> believe
> > there will be numerous applicants for AP out of
> > SL.
>
>
> This is why SL should have thought about that way
> before the boundary study even started.

You got to be kidding - You think we went through all this, just to allow pupil placements to occur. The optimal number of 2000 per school was not just thought out of thin air. Chantilly and Westfield and Oakton by that standard will be over capacity and NO pupil placements will be allowed. You guys hate SB and all who support SL, but they are not stupid - So get real and face it that this is well planned.

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=29727&paper=62&cat=104

quote:
------------
But along with geography, Rumberger said the desire to head up a secondary school was a large factor in his decision.
"The concept of a true secondary school. Seven-through-12," he said.
Westfield High School initially was pegged to be a secondary school. "It started out that way. But there were some other things that came up at that time in transition where we couldn't annex that plan," he said.
-------------

onto the runways- see bits of Fox Mill, DC united , Old Redskins and the runways.
Attachments:

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
>

>
> Montgomery County's IB magnet not only has
> information on its web site showing that it has IB
> Diploma candidates take AP Calculus BC classes
> instead of the HL Math class, but I also have
> heard from friends in MD that this is what
> happens.
>

Couple things -

Richard Montgomery offers a complete AP curriculum and somewhat less complete IB math/science one. The reasonably complete dual curricula make it easier combine programs, but IB diploma candidates must complete the required number of IB SL/HL classes.

On the math topic, the way Richard Montgomery gets around the IB math issue is that they actually offer sufficient IB math to allow the diploma candidates to take IB math, but they end the IB sequence at SL. They don't offer HL. Instead, all IB kids take the SL course to get the required IB math credit, then take AB or BC AP Calculus if they want additional math. For the really math inclined they then offer multivariate/easy diff equ. This works for the Diploma candidates since IB SL can be made to be reasonably close to a US Honors pre-calc course, and the IB diploma science types go on to calculus as US universities expect. Why end the sequence at SL? The HL topics-based approach simply doesn't fit US math expectations for college science/engineering/math majors and the other kids probably wouldn't take HL anyway.

See http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rmhs/departments/math/CoursesIBMath.pdf

Couple additional items on the science issues -

Since the IB math sequence doesn't do much with calculus, the hard science courses that have expectations of pre/co-requisites of calculus can't be taught at that level. So, IB Physics isn't calculus-based, but, since AP high schools include calculus, the AP Physics classes are calculus-based as is expected by US colleges for science majors. Also, since the IB course is topics-based, it'd be harder to have IB Physics 1 cover similar materials to Honors Physics then follow on to AP Physics. As a result, Richard Montgomery doesn't allow IB Physics 1 -> AP Physics.

On chemistry/bio/envi sci/... the initial college courses don't typically use much calculus, so calculus doesn't prevent the HL courses from being reasonably similar to the AP courses for science majors. For this reason, Richard Montgomery is able to offer combined AP/IB Bio and AP/IB Envi Sci courses.

On Comp Sci, Richard Montgomery only offers AP Comp Sci, no IB Comp Sci.

To sum up, IB Diploma candidates can get their math/science credits, but the highest level courses in math, physics, and comp sci are AP. Chemistry/biology/envi sci are sometimes joint classes, sometimes not, but the classes are essentially equivalent.