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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 02:18AM

Fox Mill Estates Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Anyone who knows,
>
> What exactly did Stu Gibbson do with this
> confidential information about a minor?
>
> What are the facts of the case?
>
> Thanks

During the campaign he used the information to hurt his opponent. He sent a letter to 5 PTAs telling them about how he helped his opponent get her son an IEP and special ed services. Then he went to the press with the information that this little boy was receiving some special ed services. The state department of education told him to stop, the federal Department of education said he was in violation of the law. Then he went to the press again! And claimed he had done nothing wrong and the state and federal people were wrong! The SB decided that it was Stu who was wrong and they had no basis to appeal the decisions. They also read an apology for him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2008 02:29AM by Neen.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 02:28AM

Stacey Zammit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I object to your 2 or 3 rabid dissastisfied IB
> parents. My "genius" son who has never scored
> more than high average is all of a sudden in 4
> honors classes at Hughes, all reccommendations
> from his teacher, all a's and a few b's.
> Obviously my son was told he was an all honors
> student at Hughes. So he became more of a genius
> and became all pre-IB at Southlakes. All of a
> sudden, his grades tanked and I now have to
> transfer him to a school with more than 2 tracks.
> Elite track vs. everyone else. My son was kept at
> SLHS in order to improve their socioeconomic
> balance. I'm sure they know he's a good solid
> student; not a genius. The administration has now
> convinced him that he is a loser and has
> completely destroyed his motivation. IB classes
> are sooooo difficult and not appropriate unless a
> child is gifted in a particular area. Some very
> few kids Love IB; they are the geniuses who need
> the challenge. The other "IB" students are
> unqualified to be in those classes, but chose them
> since regular classes at SLHS are often filled
> with gangs. Average children chose IB and try to
> figure out ways to beat the system. Southlakes
> doesn't care about students; only schools and
> rankings. I will never send any of my younger
> children to that school.

I am so very sorry that happened to your child. I hate it when schools become more important than the individual children in them. It's so sad.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 02:42AM

I am having a bit of trouble with the South Lakes argument that the school is not provided with the same resources as other schools. On the FCPS website I found some interesting numbers about staffing at South Lakes and other schools.

South Lakes, with a population of 1443, with 256 special ed:
(as of Dec. 2007) 2007-08
Administrative 8.0
Custodians 18.0
Guidance Counselors 7.0
Instructional Assistants and Attendants 22.0
Office Support 14.0
Safety and Security 5.0
Specialists and Teachers 137.1

Total employees 213
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:11:3715045095596320::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:320

Oakton, with a population of 2,350, with 291 special ed:
As of December 2007:
Administrators 8.0
custodians 18.5
Guidance counselors 9.5
Instructional Assistants and Attendants 5.0
Office Support 10.5
Safety and Security 4.0
Specialists and teachers: 158.5

Total employees 214
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:11:3876144959006721::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:050

Oakton has almost a thousand more students than does South Lakes with virtually identical number of employees and only 20 more teachers. How is South Lakes not getting their fair share?

Just in case Oakton is an outlier.

Madison for 2007/2008, with a population of 1, 910 and 236 special ed (ED center):
Administrators 7
custodians 16.5
Guidance office 7
Instructional attendants and assistants: 11
Office support 10.5
Safety and security 4
Specialists and teachers 137.2

Total employees 193.2
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:11:7546784628352136::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:060

South Lakes has almost 500 fewer students than Madison, yet they have exactly the same number of teachers, and South Lakes has 20 more employees!

Again, how is South Lakes not getting the same resources as other schools? They should have even more options than Oakton and Madison! And MUCH smaller classes!

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 16, 2008 06:41AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Sorry, VaDriver, but your argument is built
> upon a logical fallacy. Even if one were to
> believe that there is a 19% difference in the home
> values in an average school district and an
> excellent one, that is of no moment here. Why?
> Because redistricting will not transform Oakton or
> Westfield into merely average schools, and South
> Lakes is not an average school now and certainly
> will not be after redistricting.<<<
>
> You have missed the point. Floris and Fox Mill
> will lose property values because they are leaving
> one of the best schools in the county for one that
> is below average in this county. The studies
> compare schools in the same area, not schools in
> New York vs Arkansas. VADriver was doing the same
> in THIS county. Leaving a good school, like
> Oakton, to go to a below average school, like
> South Lakes will lower houses values in that
> redistricted neighborhood by 9 to 19%.
>
> I am surprised that you believe that even after
> the boundary change South Lakes will continue to
> be one of the schools on the bottom, although I
> think you will be correct since this awful process
> will result in so fews kids who will go to South
> Lakes and those students will be the kids on the
> bottom without other options. It's a shame for
> everyone, all this trouble, for nothing.


Exactly, Floris, Fox Mill and Madison are being asked to leave their high schools which all of them have earned the Governor's Award of Educational Excellence just to go to South Lakes and benefit them! In my opinion, one of the ways to succeed, it all depends on the attitudes of teachers/school staff/students/parents of a school community to work together to succeed, not just snatch other kids from other communities to benefit a low performing high school.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: urugo ()
Date: January 16, 2008 07:08AM

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems the behavior of SL Parent (infuriating
> the masses) has caused the usual SL hacks (SL
> Verity, SL Padre, Pyramid, etc) to put a sock in
> their tiresome mantra.
>
> Well done SL Parent.


more like they are ordering a red carpet and putting together tiny gift baskets with blue and green almonds

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Lillibit ()
Date: January 16, 2008 07:26AM

It's more like they are probably realizing that the SB and interested parents are reading this forum and a couple of others here (like the get out of Dodge one). I'm sure after reading them anyone closely involved at SL can figure out who these posters are.

Let's just say it's not helping their case any.

I once had a soccer coach who kept saying, "If I just had better players, we'd win." Reminds me of him. My parents yanked me from the team the day they heard him say it.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: observer ()
Date: January 16, 2008 07:46AM

My home is not involved in the redistricting issue, though it was in an earlier boundary adjustment.

I have a comment and a question.

#1. None of the homes that were in the boundary adjustment I went through changed in terms of property values, even though they were being redistricted into a supposedly underperforming school, so those expressing concern about that shouldn't worry.

#2 Where is it stated that if you buy in a neighborhood that feeds into a certain school, that you are guaranteed your neighborhood will always feed into that school?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: stats ()
Date: January 16, 2008 08:07AM

Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2008 02:42AM


I am having a bit of trouble with the South Lakes argument that the school is not provided with the same resources as other schools. On the FCPS website I found some interesting numbers about staffing at South Lakes and other schools.

South Lakes, with a population of 1443, with 256 special ed:
(as of Dec. 2007) 2007-08
Administrative 8.0
Custodians 18.0
Guidance Counselors 7.0
Instructional Assistants and Attendants 22.0
Office Support 14.0
Safety and Security 5.0
Specialists and Teachers 137.1

Total employees 213
[schoolprofiles.fcps.edu]

Oakton, with a population of 2,350, with 291 special ed:
As of December 2007:
Administrators 8.0
custodians 18.5
Guidance counselors 9.5
Instructional Assistants and Attendants 5.0
Office Support 10.5
Safety and Security 4.0
Specialists and teachers: 158.5

Total employees 214
[schoolprofiles.fcps.edu]

Oakton has almost a thousand more students than does South Lakes with virtually identical number of employees and only 20 more teachers. How is South Lakes not getting their fair share?

Just in case Oakton is an outlier.

Madison for 2007/2008, with a population of 1, 910 and 236 special ed (ED center):
Administrators 7
custodians 16.5
Guidance office 7
Instructional attendants and assistants: 11
Office support 10.5
Safety and security 4
Specialists and teachers 137.2

Total employees 193.2
[schoolprofiles.fcps.edu]

South Lakes has almost 500 fewer students than Madison, yet they have exactly the same number of teachers, and South Lakes has 20 more employees!

Again, how is South Lakes not getting the same resources as other schools? They should have even more options than Oakton and Madison! And MUCH smaller classes

-------
Special Ed students warrant a much lower teacher:student ratio than that of the regular students. Special Ed students at SL constitute a much larger percentage of SL total students as compared to Oakton and Madison ie 256/1443=17.7%, 291/2350=12.4% and 236/1910=12.4%.

Your stats don't break down the teachers serving the regular sudents vs. the number serving the Special ed students.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Fox Mill Estates Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 08:36AM

Baffled,

I need to make a correction to my previous post to you. The police/truant officer where I went to high school wasn't full time but split between two high schools if memory serves. If memory serves, the trouble makers in the high school seemed to know about his schedule and plotted their escaped around that schedule.

By the way, we moved from that place --for various reasons and not just the school. I have to call my mother and thank her now that I think about it.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: falls church city mom ()
Date: January 16, 2008 08:37AM

Losers, Move to Falls Church City. The schools are better there.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 08:46AM

Friday, July 28, 2006
Study: Proficiency test scores affect home values in each school districtBusiness First of Columbus - by Jeff Bell Business First

http://cll.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2006/07/31/story10.html

Fox Mill Parent,

I do believe that the "perception" of the quality of the School system has an effect on home values. There is much research done in this country as well as many other countries. I have sold new homes for over 20 years, and my experience has been that the importance placed on the quality of the schools is somewhat dependent upon the type of homes being sold. Look at it this way.

Condominium and smaller Town homes are not typically impacted price wise if they feed to an underperforming school, because the buyer profile is often either a 1st time buyer with no, or very young children, or an empty nester who is moving down. These folks are generally more concerned with amenities, shopping and general conveniences to good roads etc.

My experience is that it is the upper end TH's and single family homes that are most impacted in a positive or negative way by the perception of the quality of the school system that it feeds to. Overwhelmingly, one of the 1st questions asked by buyers with school aged children is "how are the schools"? or "what schools do this neighborhood go to"?

My experience in the NoVA area, is that most buyers are very well informed, and have done much research on the web, to determine what the relative merits of different schools are, in the general area that they want to live.

We see many, many people who are "relocated to the area" for jobs etc., and most with children will have already been comparing the relative merits of the various schools in the area, as well as asking future co-workers for opinions on the quality of a given school pyramid.

Often times, the perception of a "good" school VS. a "bad" school is simply based on the "numbers" and "test scores" that are published on the FCPS web site as well as other web sites that provide data on schools.

I definitely have seen that people will pay a premium to live in a community where the "perceived" quality of the schools are rated very high, whereas some people will flat out not even consider looking at homes that feed into what they "perceive" to be a poor school district, even if it is priced much lower than similar homes that feed to a top rated school.

We live in a County where a very big premium is placed on education, (look at the size of the FC school budget), and I think most people buying homes who have children will make sacrifices in other areas of importance like size, newness, convenience to job etc. if that is what is necessary to get their children into what they feel is a "good" school. Much discussion (and pride) centers around our children, and what grades, academic achievemnts and honors have been bestowed on them. How many people do you know that make a point of mentioning that their child "made it into TJ"?

What the impact to Floris/Fox Mill and Madison Island communities will see in lost property values if this boundary shift goes through, I do not know. It could be argued that in 5 to 10 years, (look at perception of Chantilly High School in the late 80's compared to today) the "perceived" quality of South lakes may be very much improved, and home values will stabilize, and start to rebound. The question is what happens if you have to sell your home in a year or two.

I have read much data on the positives of South Lakes High School, and equal amount of negative things about South Lakes, But the perception is that Oakton, Madison and Westfield are considered better schools than South Lakes.

We all know that perception is the reality that most of us use when making any major (or minor) decisions in life. As an example, if a friend of yours told you that a particular restaurant had terrible food, you would probably accept this, rather than go try it yourself. Is this a rational decision? No. Could your friend have different tastes than you? Yes. Is it fair to the Restaurant in question? No.

People will wait in long lines, and pay very high prices to eat at a Restaurant where the ratings are considered high, regardless of whether the food or dining experience is truly better than the empty place next door.

The point is, home values "will" be impacted by the schools in which they feed, whether or not the perception of quality is right or wrong.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Fox Mill Estates Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 08:54AM

Observer,

I am glad to read that things worked out for you. I certainly hope that whom ever gets redistricted doesn't loose equity in their homes as a result of the change.

And no where is it set in stone that school districts remain the same. When I bought my house here my son was slated to go to Fox Mill, Franklin Middle School, and Oakton. We were redistricted once allready. Luckily things worked out.

However, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't get worried when I see my home redistricted from a top performing school especially when I have no apparent control over the outcome. Fear is a powerful emotion especially where there is a lack of control --look what is happening to the stock market right now and this is happening, by and large, through professional money managers. I am no less human than they.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Fox Mill Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 08:56AM

Floris Parent, Thank you for your reply. I look foward to reading it in detail. But it is off to work for now. Thank you.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:19AM

observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My home is not involved in the redistricting
> issue, though it was in an earlier boundary
> adjustment.
>
> I have a comment and a question.
>
> #1. None of the homes that were in the boundary
> adjustment I went through changed in terms of
> property values, even though they were being
> redistricted into a supposedly underperforming
> school, so those expressing concern about that
> shouldn't worry.

Observer,

Can you clarify what boundary change you are referring to?
>
> #2 Where is it stated that if you buy in a
> neighborhood that feeds into a certain school,
> that you are guaranteed your neighborhood will
> always feed into that school?

Observer,

We all know that are no guarantees in life. I firmly believe that many families who have been impacted by this study "do" recognize that due to poor planning, underhanded political dealings, poor stewardship of our valuable tax payer resources etc., that an imbalance in enrollments has occurred in our West County Schools.

I also believe that had this study been conducted in a much broader scale, and had the school board not completely botched this study from the beginning, that there may have been some buy in and consensus building from the affected communities.

As it stands now, I do not see how South Lakes will ever gain the parental involvement that is needed to improve how a school performs. When distrust is present, and people feel that they are being taken advantage of because they do not live in the "expensive" areas, they become bitter, and will do whatever is necessary to fight it. It is vary easy for those that currently feed to South lakes, as well as those who are not a party to this boundary study, to cast opinions.

There is no real down side for the Current South Lakes students, and for those communities that escaped the net that has been cast by the SB Staff, it is apparent that they no longer care about this study, as evidenced by the lack out turn out at the last Town Hall meeting at Oakton.

What has been created, is a situation where 3 "Healthy" and long established communities are being 'surgically removed" from their current schools, and being transplanted into a "sick and failing" school, in the hopes of saving it from further decay and death.

Often times, we see that transplants fail, because they are rejected (foreign bodies that are not compatible) or, the ailing person is not willing to change lifestyle, and ultimately succumbs to death anyway, because the original problems where never addressed. The shame is, so did the transplanted organ.

What should be happening, is that the school's overall health needs to be improved to a point where that "transplants" actually has a chance to thrive.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: observer ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:43AM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My home is not involved in the redistricting
> > issue, though it was in an earlier boundary
> > adjustment.
> >
> > I have a comment and a question.
> >
> > #1. None of the homes that were in the
> boundary
> > adjustment I went through changed in terms of
> > property values, even though they were being
> > redistricted into a supposedly underperforming
> > school, so those expressing concern about that
> > shouldn't worry.
>
> Observer,
>
> Can you clarify what boundary change you are
> referring to?
> >
> > #2 Where is it stated that if you buy in a
> > neighborhood that feeds into a certain school,
> > that you are guaranteed your neighborhood will
> > always feed into that school?
>
> Observer,
>
> We all know that are no guarantees in life. I
> firmly believe that many families who have been
> impacted by this study "do" recognize that due to
> poor planning, underhanded political dealings,
> poor stewardship of our valuable tax payer
> resources etc., that an imbalance in enrollments
> has occurred in our West County Schools.
>
> I also believe that had this study been conducted
> in a much broader scale, and had the school board
> not completely botched this study from the
> beginning, that there may have been some buy in
> and consensus building from the affected
> communities.
>
> As it stands now, I do not see how South Lakes
> will ever gain the parental involvement that is
> needed to improve how a school performs. When
> distrust is present, and people feel that they are
> being taken advantage of because they do not live
> in the "expensive" areas, they become bitter, and
> will do whatever is necessary to fight it. It is
> vary easy for those that currently feed to South
> lakes, as well as those who are not a party to
> this boundary study, to cast opinions.
>
> There is no real down side for the Current South
> Lakes students, and for those communities that
> escaped the net that has been cast by the SB
> Staff, it is apparent that they no longer care
> about this study, as evidenced by the lack out
> turn out at the last Town Hall meeting at Oakton.
>
> What has been created, is a situation where 3
> "Healthy" and long established communities are
> being 'surgically removed" from their current
> schools, and being transplanted into a "sick and
> failing" school, in the hopes of saving it from
> further decay and death.
>
> Often times, we see that transplants fail, because
> they are rejected (foreign bodies that are not
> compatible) or, the ailing person is not willing
> to change lifestyle, and ultimately succumbs to
> death anyway, because the original problems where
> never addressed. The shame is, so did the
> transplanted organ.
>
> What should be happening, is that the school's
> overall health needs to be improved to a point
> where that "transplants" actually has a chance to
> thrive.

I am also responding to Fox Mill Parent.

My district is part of the Stuart community and I went through this when Glen Forest ES was redistributed to Parklawn ES. In addition parts of the Sleepy Hollow community was affected. Sleepy Hollow parents were upset that they would feed into Glasgow instead of Poe. Many pupil placed their MS students into Poe, and some still do. The Sleepy Hollow community still maintains their property values.

I am unclear in your situation why you seem to feel that the South Lakes community initiated this process, your distrust comments make me wonder if that is what you feel.

I do agree that the board botched the process in many ways.

I need to head to a meeting now, but will try to comment further later on, to address some of your other comments/points.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Mike ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:56AM

stats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> -------
> Special Ed students warrant a much lower
> teacher:student ratio than that of the regular
> students. Special Ed students at SL constitute a
> much larger percentage of SL total students as
> compared to Oakton and Madison ie 256/1443=17.7%,
> 291/2350=12.4% and 236/1910=12.4%.
>
> Your stats don't break down the teachers serving
> the regular sudents vs. the number serving the
> Special ed students.

This argument doesn't appear to make sense. Please supply an example which demonstrates your point.

I tried 5 to 1 for special ed and 20 to 1 for regular students.

Oakton would be 58 teachers for 291 special ed and 103 teachers for the other 2059 for a total of 161 teachers needed as compared to their actual 158.

South Lakes would be 51 teachers for 256 special ed kids and 59 teachers for the other 1187 regular students for a total of 110 teachers leaving them with a surplus of 27 teachers.

Madison using the same ratio would have a surplus of 7 teachers.

Try any other reasonable ratios and you will obtain similar results.

I guess these teachers must not be very good at South Lakes, maybe they should be redistricted instead of the kids?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:22AM

Mike - always good to see someone not taking a glib statement as gospel. And even better to see that your critical thinking leads to a reasonable assumption - that of 27 "surplus" teachers. But that surplus likely isn't a result of the school deciding to be luxurious or prolifigate. A real, honest look by those who know the school could explain the reasons. My guess is that the IB program adds its own costs and teachers - a program enjoyed by relatively few - and that the ESOL program - which is distinct from special ed - adds considerably more. These are only my guesses. And I relate this not to pick on SLHS - but no doubt it is a different place than its neighbors in many respects, and in some ways the differences are not things that many like to discuss in the open.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Mike ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:28AM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
A real,
> honest look by those who know the school could
> explain the reasons.

I don't disagree with you and I don't really believe that SL has 27 "surplus" teachers. But I would like to see an honest, detailed assessment of what SL isn't getting in terms of resources and what the plan is to receive those resources once the redistricting occurs.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 12:01PM

I came across this article after a Google search of Reston and South Lakes. I have no personal knowledge of this incident in December 2004, and I have no knowledge of whether this article or the quotes are legitimate. This is just an example of what information is on the Web, that may influence peoples perceptions of South Lakes. If anyone can shed any light on this article, that would be great.

http://internet128.com/index.php/archives/2004/12/25/running-out-of-space-latino-gangs-swarm-anglo-america/



Here is another link to read that has many different opinions on schools,diversity and boundary changes etc.

http://www.discriminations.us/2007/06/yes.html

I have copied below, just one of many different opinions posted on this site, that happens to mention South Lakes and Reston. I do not know this person, and I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with this individual's opinion, but it is interesting to look at other people opinions as it relates to a very emotional and difficult topic of School Boundary Changes:

Posted by: K | July 4, 2007 12:52 PM

Cobra - its not so much as white (and Asian) parents feel victimized its just that they don't buy into the school district's attempt at social engineering, since it often involves extended commutes or bus rides and the value in terms of education is negligible or even deductive. And the blunt truth is that concerned parents don't want their kids going to school with bad students - and unfortunately, good teachers don't want to teach them either. Look at Reston in Fairfax County Virginia - and South Lakes High School in particular. South Lakes and Reston is in a diversity laden utopia - it has expensive housing, middle class housing, and a considerable amount of very low cost public housing (interspersed so there is only limited pockets of quasi-ghettos). There must be over 200 different ethnic groups in Reston, easily. Most Fairfax County schools are literally bursting at the seams - classes in trailers - you name it - but not South Lakes High in Reston. It is actually under-enrolled, with room for hundreds more. Why? While it has a number of good students, it also has a significant slug of public housing kids (mostly black, unfortunately) that, consistent with NAEP results, are at least three grades behind others in the 12th grade (the picture is actually worse than the statistics because of the drop out rate). SAT scores lag considerably, too (again, misleading because the reality is more bleak because of the drop out rate and non-testing in the population), to the tune of 300 points (old SAT). And this is happening literally in the utopia that is known as Reston, where unemployment is zero, community centers (posh ones with Olympic pools and whirlpools) abound, a modern hospital exists that has none of the inner city health care problems, crime is low (although the County does mandate the use of two officer vehicles in some public housing parts of Reston), the Reston Association maintains beautiful (stunning, actually) woods, nature and 35 miles of trails right among the housing, teacher to pupil ratios in the troubled classes are fantastic, and there is a surplus of do-gooders to help those in need, along with an unparalleled interfaith association that performs an astounding amount of charity in almost every way. This is truly Sweden in North America. Yet there still (even in this utopia) is a stubborn cadre of poor performing (yes, most all are from single mother black homes) that also cause an outsize number of behavior problems. And because of this, parents (even minority parents that really care about their kids education) put all sorts of pressure on the county schools to avoid South Lakes. And these parents are hardly the conservatives that liberals love to bash as being close minded - these folks live in the Reston area, who more or less buy into the social utopia that Reston aspires to, and are fairly liberal. But not when it comes to sending their kids to a high school with a big chunk of bad students (with a lesser, but still sizeable chunk, with significant behavior problems). They act real conservative when it comes to their own kids education. So what Reston and South Lakes High remind me is that the real problem - one not addressed by any of the Parents United cases, is the significant achievement gap that remains between white and Asian students and black students. And like it or not, cultural factors (some of which admittedly have their roots in an awful history of discrimination) seem to be the current root cause. When we will these cultural factors be addressed openly and met head on? It sure would help if the schools were to address it far more directly, lose their fear of stigmatization, abandon the feel good yet empirically soft shibboleth of diversity, and bluntly speak about the real problem. Tough talk, because invariably there will be cries of blaming the victim - but the culture must be changed, the gap is not really closing and depending how one calculates the drop rates (a huge conflict among scholars), may be getting worse, and the use of race in school assignment, while it may in the short run spread the burden and pain around, will not solve the problem that is driving this whole mess. One can rail all that want about the rich doing this and that, but let's face it, concerned parents take their children's education very seriously, and there is a limit to the amount of social engineering to which even the most liberal minded will endure.


Again, I am not an advocate of any opinions from this blog, but I think it shows us, that what we are dealing with in Fairfax County, is an issue that is going on all over the country. My hope is that common ground and consensus can be obtained through a better boundary study,(not this current plan) that will have a true and lasting impact for the betterment of not just South Lakes, but all of the schools in Fairfax County.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: new hawk ()
Date: January 16, 2008 12:02PM

Hey SL people,

Please don't take offense to this since it is unrelated to the quality of parents, teachers, staff or students at the school but your website is really, really lame.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 12:15PM

The school websites list teachers by department in at least some interesting cases. The schools I checked showed around 30 teachers in the special ED department; I think South Lakes was 33, Madison was similar, Langley was 28. That would work to a ratio of around 8:1 for special ed, plus some number of teaching assistants probably...South Lakes has 22 of those.

I'm fine with the the SLHS folks trying to explain things, but when e.g. the special ed differential is blindly cited as an explanation for everything, it does't come across as very convincing.

I do believe IB schools in general have lower student : teacher ratios. I posted on this previously, but in general, an IB school will have as many teachers as an AP school with 300-400 more students. We can't determine what the causality direction was here tho...i.e. we can't assume IB is less efficient, it could be that the schools with IB have other reasons for needing more teachers.

Suffice it to say that SLHS is not shortchanged for intructional positions vs. other FCPS schools on the basis of its lower student enrollment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 16, 2008 12:21PM

new hawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey SL people,
>
> Please don't take offense to this since it is
> unrelated to the quality of parents, teachers,
> staff or students at the school but your website
> is really, really lame.


Are you referring to the SL's home page of the website as provided via fcps?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: un-url ()
Date: January 16, 2008 12:30PM

new hawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey SL people,
>
> Please don't take offense to this since it is
> unrelated to the quality of parents, teachers,
> staff or students at the school but your website
> is really, really lame.


agree. you technology corridor central and this is the best you have to offer? Pony up some of those IT students who finish all their work in five minutes and have them get started on beefing up your site.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: new hawk ()
Date: January 16, 2008 01:04PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> new hawk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey SL people,
> >
> > Please don't take offense to this since it is
> > unrelated to the quality of parents, teachers,
> > staff or students at the school but your
> website
> > is really, really lame.
>
>
> Are you referring to the SL's home page of the
> website as provided via fcps?


This one, http://www.fcps.edu/SouthLakesHS/

I guess it is provided via fcps. Is there another one?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: January 16, 2008 02:27PM

Can anyone supportive of the IB program of SL respond in a thoughtful way to Stacey Zammit's post? It is one thing to demonize people for being fearful (and ironically elitist) if there is not a rational basis for their beliefs, but her story reflects exactly what people fear about South Lakes - average to above average students getting stuck with a Hobson's choice between an intensive IB program that is more than they can realistically complete or obtain plenary benefit from, or "general" classes that don't provide sufficient challenge which by necessity must respond to the needs of either non-serious students or those with significantly impaired educational background. And this "fear" is a common one all over the country - good parents with good kids (but who don't happen to have 135 IQ's or above) generally are concerned about their kids getting lost in the shuffle in big suburban high schools - the problem, as Stacey Zammit presents it - is that the limitations she describes at SLHS makes things worse.

This is the rub, isn't it? And how will redistricting solve the problem? In one sense I could see how the problem could be made better if there are more decent students in the general classes - a time honored reality is that teachers teach to the middle of the class and if that middle is more capable than in the past - those classes will be better - but that assumes that the decent students will actually show up in sufficient numbers to make a material difference. And anticipating what SLHS supporters might say - they might respond by stating that that is why it is imperative that more people are compelled to show up. And maybe that is right - although it certainly is rational to be skeptical of change occurring merely through administrative fiat - something else, it seems to me, needs to happen. And again, this is not a rant at SLHS, but an invitation to SL supporters as to how to respond to Stacey Zammit's apparently very real predicament. It seems to me that winning the hearts and minds of students like the offspring of Stacey Zammits is exactly the right way forward for South Lakes - and those hearts and minds won't be won through a mere invocation of diversity, or statements that it is a "gem" - people need to see concrete solutions to obtain comfort. Not an easy thing to do - by the way...so I say all of this respectfully.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 02:55PM

Quantum,

I admire your writing skills, and have always felt that you have presented articulate as well as respectful and insighful commentary on this post. Keep up the great questions and insights.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Observer ()
Date: January 16, 2008 03:03PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone supportive of the IB program of SL
> respond in a thoughtful way to Stacey Zammit's
> post? It is one thing to demonize people for being
> fearful (and ironically elitist) if there is not a
> rational basis for their beliefs, but her story
> reflects exactly what people fear about South
> Lakes - average to above average students getting
> stuck with a Hobson's choice between an intensive
> IB program that is more than they can
> realistically complete or obtain plenary benefit
> from, or "general" classes that don't provide
> sufficient challenge which by necessity must
> respond to the needs of either non-serious
> students or those with significantly impaired
> educational background. And this "fear" is a
> common one all over the country - good parents
> with good kids (but who don't happen to have 135
> IQ's or above) generally are concerned about their
> kids getting lost in the shuffle in big suburban
> high schools - the problem, as Stacey Zammit
> presents it - is that the limitations she
> describes at SLHS makes things worse.
>
> This is the rub, isn't it? And how will
> redistricting solve the problem? In one sense I
> could see how the problem could be made better if
> there are more decent students in the general
> classes - a time honored reality is that teachers
> teach to the middle of the class and if that
> middle is more capable than in the past - those
> classes will be better - but that assumes that the
> decent students will actually show up in
> sufficient numbers to make a material difference.
> And anticipating what SLHS supporters might say -
> they might respond by stating that that is why it
> is imperative that more people are compelled to
> show up. And maybe that is right - although it
> certainly is rational to be skeptical of change
> occurring merely through administrative fiat -
> something else, it seems to me, needs to happen.
> And again, this is not a rant at SLHS, but an
> invitation to SL supporters as to how to respond
> to Stacey Zammit's apparently very real
> predicament. It seems to me that winning the
> hearts and minds of students like the offspring of
> Stacey Zammits is exactly the right way forward
> for South Lakes - and those hearts and minds won't
> be won through a mere invocation of diversity, or
> statements that it is a "gem" - people need to see
> concrete solutions to obtain comfort. Not an easy
> thing to do - by the way...so I say all of this
> respectfully.


If I am recalling the post correctly, that you are referencing, it dealt with a student entering the Pre-IB courses and then becoming overwhelmed. I have experience with IB at another school. One son is pursuing the diploma, and the other is considering that avenue, but will probably not do it. I think the main issue is there are no honors level courses for juniors and seniors in FCPS HS's. This is true whether or not the HS is AP or IB. For 9th and 10th graders though, the school my sons are at does have honors level courses in addition to the Pre-IB courses, and so a student wouldn't have to choose between "regular" and the IB track. I have to assume from Stacey's post that her son didn't have that choice? And by the way Pre-IB courses are not required to take the IB courses in 11th and 12th grade, though a student should complete Algebra 2 in their sophomore year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: FME Mom ()
Date: January 16, 2008 03:14PM

Floris Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum,
>
> I admire your writing skills, and have always felt
> that you have presented articulate as well as
> respectful and insighful commentary on this post.
> Keep up the great questions and insights.


Heh, I was just about to write a post stating the same thing!

Cheers to Quantum for articulately conveying the thoughts I no-so-eloquently post on this site. I enjoy reading his messages.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 03:49PM

Here is a link to the FCPS in which you can review Staff recomendations for the current bounday study, as well as SB meeting minutes etc.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/Public?OpenFrameSet

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 05:21PM

Lillibit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's more like they are probably realizing that
> the SB and interested parents are reading this
> forum and a couple of others here (like the get
> out of Dodge one). I'm sure after reading them
> anyone closely involved at SL can figure out who
> these posters are.
>
> Let's just say it's not helping their case any.
>
> I once had a soccer coach who kept saying, "If I
> just had better players, we'd win." Reminds me of
> him. My parents yanked me from the team the day
> they heard him say it.

We've all tried to explain this to them. And, yes, we know who most of them are.

I love the story about your soccer coach. It is so very fitting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 05:26PM

falls church city mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Losers, Move to Falls Church City. The schools are
> better there.

Great idea! Got 300 houses for sale there? It might over crowd your schools a bit, but I'm sure you won't mind. It's for the good of everyone.

If we can't find a house, how 'bout we all bunk in with you?

Thanks!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: redistricting will happen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 06:28PM

Wonderful suggestion for all of you to relocate to Falls Church with the ever so educated sounding "falls church city mom."

Don't know though, that you all would be able to afford a home with 300K additions and proximity to our Nation's Capitol. It might be a bit of a challenge to find one comparably priced to that of your folksy 30 year old homes in Chantilly and Oakton.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Florisian ()
Date: January 16, 2008 06:50PM

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone supportive of the IB program of SL
> respond in a thoughtful way to Stacey Zammit's
> post? It is one thing to demonize people for being
> fearful (and ironically elitist) if there is not a
> rational basis for their beliefs, but her story
> reflects exactly what people fear about South
> Lakes - average to above average students getting
> stuck with a Hobson's choice between an intensive
> IB program that is more than they can
> realistically complete or obtain plenary benefit
> from, or "general" classes that don't provide
> sufficient challenge which by necessity must
> respond to the needs of either non-serious
> students or those with significantly impaired
> educational background. And this "fear" is a
> common one all over the country - good parents
> with good kids (but who don't happen to have 135
> IQ's or above) generally are concerned about their
> kids getting lost in the shuffle in big suburban
> high schools - the problem, as Stacey Zammit
> presents it - is that the limitations she
> describes at SLHS makes things worse.
>
> This is the rub, isn't it? And how will
> redistricting solve the problem? In one sense I
> could see how the problem could be made better if
> there are more decent students in the general
> classes - a time honored reality is that teachers
> teach to the middle of the class and if that
> middle is more capable than in the past - those
> classes will be better - but that assumes that the
> decent students will actually show up in
> sufficient numbers to make a material difference.
> And anticipating what SLHS supporters might say -
> they might respond by stating that that is why it
> is imperative that more people are compelled to
> show up. And maybe that is right - although it
> certainly is rational to be skeptical of change
> occurring merely through administrative fiat -
> something else, it seems to me, needs to happen.
> And again, this is not a rant at SLHS, but an
> invitation to SL supporters as to how to respond
> to Stacey Zammit's apparently very real
> predicament. It seems to me that winning the
> hearts and minds of students like the offspring of
> Stacey Zammits is exactly the right way forward
> for South Lakes - and those hearts and minds won't
> be won through a mere invocation of diversity, or
> statements that it is a "gem" - people need to see
> concrete solutions to obtain comfort. Not an easy
> thing to do - by the way...so I say all of this
> respectfully.


Thomas More,

Can you help us out here? You seem to have maybe some non0IB experience at SL. thanks

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: KS ()
Date: January 16, 2008 06:52PM

redistricting will happen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wonderful suggestion for all of you to relocate to
> Falls Church with the ever so educated sounding
> "falls church city mom."
>
> Don't know though, that you all would be able to
> afford a home with 300K additions and proximity to
> our Nation's Capitol. It might be a bit of a
> challenge to find one comparably priced to that of
> your folksy 30 year old homes in Chantilly and
> Oakton.



wow, that packed a power punch...NOT!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Lola Espanola ()
Date: January 16, 2008 07:59PM

observer Wrote-------------------------------------------------------
> My home is not involved in the redistricting
> issue, though it was in an earlier boundary
> adjustment.
>
> I have a comment and a question.
>
> #1. None of the homes that were in the boundary
> adjustment I went through changed in terms of
> property values, even though they were being
> redistricted into a supposedly underperforming
> school, so those expressing concern about that
> shouldn't worry.
>
> #2 Where is it stated that if you buy in a
> neighborhood that feeds into a certain school,
> that you are guaranteed your neighborhood will
> always feed into that school?


When was the boundary study that you were affected by conducted? Perhaps it was done sometime between 2000-2005, during which time almost all real estate increased in value, some years by double digit percentages. Maybe the reason you didn't notice any decrease, was that it was offset by the overall rising prices of the market. At this point, the real estate market is declining, or 'correcting' and many affected homeowners fear a double impact, with the overall real estate market as well as the change in high school boundaires.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 08:20PM

Florisian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More,
>
> Can you help us out here? You seem to have maybe
> some non0IB experience at SL. thanks

I've had 4 kids go through SL. The oldest got out before IB came along and took a few AP classes. Went to a specialty college in the Northeast and is working in that very competitve field.

None of the other 3 took an IB SL or HL course because their parents decided after discovering most of the information that's been deescribed here that the effort required wasn't worth the payoff. However, they did take pre-IB courses in 9th and 10th grade which were the equivalent of the honors classes that their older sibling took.

The non-IB classes taken in junior and senior year were challenging and not pablum.

Oldest son phoned in homework all 4 years. He did well on his tests (B+ & A) but was bored by and didn't do his homework and thus instead of having a 3.5, had a 2.2. (This grading homework every night is total bs)

He's is at the top PSAC school, is on Dean's list and will finish a 5 year BS/MBA program in 3 more years. His college has a 4 year graduation rate better than GMU and more than double CNU, ODU or VCU. And I pay less than if he went to JMU.

Younger sister is a senior at SL. She's taking her 4th year of math, Math Analysis and Trig. which is challenging. Englsh is a lit class with little or no grammar or vocabulary. She took two years of Spanish which was a joke. She's finishing her 2nd year of Latin which is college prep appropriate. The history/social studies cycle was college prep appropriate. I've heard no complaints about kids holding the class back from covering material. She's taken accounting, business law and business management which were equal to the courses I took in college as a non-business major. She's now taking an on-line Advanced Accounting class. She had three years of science which were also college prep appropriate. She won't major in either math or science but wants to major in accounting at another PSAC college to which she has been accepted.

Youngest is a sophomore taking pre-IB government. Social studies are one of SL strong suits, Mr. Davis is great. English is another lit. class which outrages me to no end, no grammar no vocabulary. He's taking a math class called geometry but it's really an amalgam of algebra and geometry. It is college prep level. He's in his 2nd year of Latin and will take another next year. Freshman biology was college prep. He'll take two more years of science (chem & geo systems) which are college prep appropriate. He'll probably take accounting and business law & management also.

i long ago figured out that none of my kids were going to Harvard or MIT. We adjusted their work load to attempt to maximize their GPA and college prep. without depriving them of their opportunities for extracurricular activities and a social life. Most teachers and folks who know my kids described them as happy, well adjusted (they take after their mother obviously) and future college graduates.

Youngest two were reading delayed and the special ed support was applingly uneven for a school with a special ed. magnet.

It hasn't been easy to achieve this at SL but it is being done.

Long answer to a short question hopefully it was not too much info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2008 08:33PM by Thomas More.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: perplexed ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:02PM

I think this is an instance where using a percentage for special ed students is wrong. There are still more special ed students at Oakton than at South Lakes and the total number of teachers/staff is smaller at OHS than SLHS

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 16, 2008 09:04PM

I don't think the MMR kids are included in the special ed numbers. South Lakes has a Mildly Mentally Retarded magnet of 150 kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:19PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Florisian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas More,
> >
> > Can you help us out here? You seem to have
> maybe
> > some non0IB experience at SL. thanks
>
> I've had 4 kids go through SL. The oldest got out
> before IB came along and took a few AP classes.
> Went to a specialty college in the Northeast and
> is working in that very competitve field.
>
> None of the other 3 took an IB SL or HL course
> because their parents decided after discovering
> most of the information that's been deescribed
> here that the effort required wasn't worth the
> payoff. However, they did take pre-IB courses in
> 9th and 10th grade which were the equivalent of
> the honors classes that their older sibling took.
>
> The non-IB classes taken in junior and senior year
> were challenging and not pablum.
>
> Oldest son phoned in homework all 4 years. He did
> well on his tests (B+ & A) but was bored by and
> didn't do his homework and thus instead of having
> a 3.5, had a 2.2. (This grading homework every
> night is total bs)
>
> He's is at the top PSAC school, is on Dean's list
> and will finish a 5 year BS/MBA program in 3 more
> years. His college has a 4 year graduation rate
> better than GMU and more than double CNU, ODU or
> VCU. And I pay less than if he went to JMU.
>
> Younger sister is a senior at SL. She's taking her
> 4th year of math, Math Analysis and Trig. which is
> challenging. Englsh is a lit class with little or
> no grammar or vocabulary. She took two years of
> Spanish which was a joke. She's finishing her 2nd
> year of Latin which is college prep appropriate.
> The history/social studies cycle was college prep
> appropriate. I've heard no complaints about kids
> holding the class back from covering material.
> She's taken accounting, business law and business
> management which were equal to the courses I took
> in college as a non-business major. She's now
> taking an on-line Advanced Accounting class. She
> had three years of science which were also college
> prep appropriate. She won't major in either math
> or science but wants to major in accounting at
> another PSAC college to which she has been
> accepted.
>
> Youngest is a sophomore taking pre-IB government.
> Social studies are one of SL strong suits, Mr.
> Davis is great. English is another lit. class
> which outrages me to no end, no grammar no
> vocabulary. He's taking a math class called
> geometry but it's really an amalgam of algebra and
> geometry. It is college prep level. He's in his
> 2nd year of Latin and will take another next year.
> Freshman biology was college prep. He'll take two
> more years of science (chem & geo systems) which
> are college prep appropriate. He'll probably take
> accounting and business law & management also.
>
> i long ago figured out that none of my kids were
> going to Harvard or MIT. We adjusted their work
> load to attempt to maximize their GPA and college
> prep. without depriving them of their
> opportunities for extracurricular activities and a
> social life. Most teachers and folks who know my
> kids described them as happy, well adjusted (they
> take after their mother obviously) and future
> college graduates.
>
> Youngest two were reading delayed and the special
> ed support was applingly uneven for a school with
> a special ed. magnet.
>
> It hasn't been easy to achieve this at SL but it
> is being done.
>
> Long answer to a short question hopefully it was
> not too much info.

"I've had 4 kids go through SL. The oldest got out before IB came along and took a few AP classes. Went to a specialty college in the Northeast and is working in that very competitve field"

Are you saying that SL had AP classes before IB came along?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:22PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you saying that SL had AP classes before IB
> came along?

Until 2001(?), SL was an AP school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:28PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Are you saying that SL had AP classes before IB
> > came along?
>
> Until 2001(?), SL was an AP school.


Ohhh interesting...did SL have a PTA advisory committee that discussed the IB vs AP in length before deciding on IB much like Woodson did?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:34PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ohhh interesting...did SL have a PTA advisory committee that discussed the IB vs
> AP in length before deciding on IB much like Woodson did?

Nope.

Though somehow SLVerity knew about IB coming in advancved and kept it to herself.

This was all covered in posts on the pages 30-50.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Florisian ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:39PM

This is all good info. Just trying to figure out what the average student pursues, if not IB, and are they satisfied and prepared for a collegiate program.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: miffed ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:49PM

new hawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey SL people,
>
> Please don't take offense to this since it is
> unrelated to the quality of parents, teachers,
> staff or students at the school but your website
> is really, really lame.


As a passerby, who from time to time checks in with all of your wining about moving those kids of yours to where they need to be, since you are utimately going to be affected, like it or not, I have to ask, what is so "lame" about the South Lakes website? Before I completly tear apart the other schools' sites, please inform me as to what makes the South Lakes site not up to your standards. Then, I'll tell you how lame I think the others are.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:51PM

SLPP writes:

"I don't think the MMR kids are included in the special ed numbers. South Lakes has a Mildly Mentally Retarded magnet of 150 kids."

This is from the SLHS profile site at fcps.edu:

Enrollment 2006-07 # %
General Education 1,157 81.88
(English for Speakers of Other Languages 125 8.85)
Special Education Services 256 18.12

The first plus last lines add to 100%, and 1413 kids. (It should be 1443, not sure why its not, but the difference is not important here.)

Where do you think the 150 MMR kids are in this breakout?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:01PM

Re: the enrollment discrepancy above: problem solved..the 1443 is 07-08 school year September, now actually 1458 (as enrollment is increasing), with the special ed number down to 218, so the non-special student enrollment shows a significant gain from 1157 to 1240.

http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/membership/membership_2007_2008/november/web/cluster_8/monthly_membership_by_cluster_8.pdf

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:02PM

According to South Lakes supporters, those who oppose being forced into South Lakes are bigots and racists.

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=92497&paper=71&cat=109

>>>"I think it is bigotry and racism," said Caroline Hemenway. Hemenway lives in the Oakton district but has decided to pupil place her daughter into South Lakes.<<<

Welcome to South Lakes, you bigots! Don't attitudes like this make you want to send your children to South Lakes? Doesn't this sound welcoming? The SL parents think you are bigots and racists. Will they call your children those names? I would hate to think that my children would have to attend any school where the parents were so prejudiced against anyone who disagreed with their views, and felt free to call them ugly names. This just makes me shudder. No one would want to put their child in such an environment with families like these.

>>>Hemenway would have enrolled her son in South Lakes but the school was unable to offer some of the upper level science courses he wanted because it was so small. Instead, he ended up attending Marshall High School.<<<<

Ummmmm.......how odd, since her base school, Oakton, offers AP chemistry and AP physics, much more rigorous science programs than any science course at Marshall. I will leave it to others to figure out that odd choice, so far from home.

Two children, and neither is permitted to attend their local high school, and they aren't even attending the same school with each other. Poor kids. Having such an angry mother has to be difficult for them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: un-url ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:02PM

miffed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> new hawk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey SL people,
> >
> > Please don't take offense to this since it is
> > unrelated to the quality of parents, teachers,
> > staff or students at the school but your website
>
> > is really, really lame.
>
>
> As a passerby, who from time to time checks in
> with all of your wining about moving those kids of
> yours to where they need to be, since you are
> utimately going to be affected, like it or not, I
> have to ask, what is so "lame" about the South
> Lakes website? Before I completly tear apart the
> other schools' sites, please inform me as to what
> makes the South Lakes site not up to your
> standards. Then, I'll tell you how lame I think
> the others are.


Thanks for asking.

It is hard to find info and there are areas that our completely dated. Went looking today for the latest on renovations, info on the theatre department and info on next Tuesday's IB meeting. Had a really hard time finding what I was looking for and some of what I found was not useful at all because it was old news. Who cares how lame the others are. It is not a competition. This is how consumers get info these days, so why not step up to the challenge. There are probably plenty of people looking.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:05PM

Florisian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is all good info. Just trying to figure out
> what the average student pursues, if not IB, and
> are they satisfied and prepared for a collegiate
> program.

IB is the only college prep course at South Lakes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:07PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ohhh interesting...did SL have a PTA advisory
> committee that discussed the IB vs
> > AP in length before deciding on IB much like
> Woodson did?
>
> Nope.
>
> Though somehow SLVerity knew about IB coming in
> advancved and kept it to herself.
>
> This was all covered in posts on the pages 30-50.


We all know that there were parents at South Lakes who vigorously opposed IB at South Lakes because they wanted to continue with their AP program. We know too that they were ignored.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:11PM

>>>once had a soccer coach who kept saying, "If I just had better players, we'd win." Reminds me of him.<<<

Too bad that your coach couldn't simply draft other players, from other teams, against their will, as South Lakes is doing. Our government used to do it too, but the involuntary draft ended in 1973. Eventually our government schools will have to stop doing it too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2008 10:14PM by Neen.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Florisian ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:13PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Florisian Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is all good info. Just trying to figure
> out
> > what the average student pursues, if not IB,
> and
> > are they satisfied and prepared for a
> collegiate
> > program.
>
> IB is the only college prep course at South Lakes.



hmmmm....bigots and racists, though. Maybe I don't care about the above now. It was an ok 5 minutes while it lasted.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:18PM

Demand creates supply. Increasing an under-enrolled school's membership by 40% to 50% will permit the school to offer a greater array of courses that will appeal to students of different abilities and interests. The IB / non-IB dynamic is already structured for this to some degree, and adding more students will make it more so. In other words, it's not all or nothing. Really strong and motivated students can go for the IB Diploma. Other students can take in a few IB courses during their tenure to challenge them more in an area in which they have more aptitute or simply to add some academic rigor to their course of study (other than the intrinsic academic benefit, the student would earn a certificate for taking the course, and his/her GPA would reflect the higher level of difficulty). In short, the infusion of so may new students - some average, some stellar, and some in between - will allow for a fuller array of courses thas SLHS can add to both the IB and non-IB curricula, which in turn will alleviate the Hobson's choice suggested in your post. Such students will be able to chart a middle path more suited to their level of motivation and aptitude. Moreover, increasing the school's membership by 40% to 50% may change the perceived negative social/academic environment that so concerns "good parents with good kids (but who don't happen to have 135 IQ's or above)." In reality, most parents are in this boat, including SLHS parents.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone supportive of the IB program of SL
> respond in a thoughtful way to Stacey Zammit's
> post? It is one thing to demonize people for being
> fearful (and ironically elitist) if there is not a
> rational basis for their beliefs, but her story
> reflects exactly what people fear about South
> Lakes - average to above average students getting
> stuck with a Hobson's choice between an intensive
> IB program that is more than they can
> realistically complete or obtain plenary benefit
> from, or "general" classes that don't provide
> sufficient challenge which by necessity must
> respond to the needs of either non-serious
> students or those with significantly impaired
> educational background. And this "fear" is a
> common one all over the country - good parents
> with good kids (but who don't happen to have 135
> IQ's or above) generally are concerned about their
> kids getting lost in the shuffle in big suburban
> high schools - the problem, as Stacey Zammit
> presents it - is that the limitations she
> describes at SLHS makes things worse.
>
> This is the rub, isn't it? And how will
> redistricting solve the problem? In one sense I
> could see how the problem could be made better if
> there are more decent students in the general
> classes - a time honored reality is that teachers
> teach to the middle of the class and if that
> middle is more capable than in the past - those
> classes will be better - but that assumes that the
> decent students will actually show up in
> sufficient numbers to make a material difference.
> And anticipating what SLHS supporters might say -
> they might respond by stating that that is why it
> is imperative that more people are compelled to
> show up. And maybe that is right - although it
> certainly is rational to be skeptical of change
> occurring merely through administrative fiat -
> something else, it seems to me, needs to happen.
> And again, this is not a rant at SLHS, but an
> invitation to SL supporters as to how to respond
> to Stacey Zammit's apparently very real
> predicament. It seems to me that winning the
> hearts and minds of students like the offspring of
> Stacey Zammits is exactly the right way forward
> for South Lakes - and those hearts and minds won't
> be won through a mere invocation of diversity, or
> statements that it is a "gem" - people need to see
> concrete solutions to obtain comfort. Not an easy
> thing to do - by the way...so I say all of this
> respectfully.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: liberal gazette reader ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:23PM

nice article in the post today saying how the FCSB just heard arguements about the community wanting to place a "TJ" west at SLHS instead of redistricting. I thought this was brought up about 6 months ago

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:26PM

Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> >I think the main issue is there are no honors
> level courses for juniors and seniors in FCPS
> HS's.

If this were true, I'd agree with you, but at Westfield there are honors courses available at the junior level - e.g. honors world civ - combo english/history. Though it's true the schools have, in general, been eliminating honors. Leads to real problems for the bright kids, are they supposed to take 7 AP classes senior year? Or take 5 APs and sleep through the 2 regular ones? On the other hand, if they are careful to schedule the regular ones 1st period A&B days, they can solve the 6:30 bus pickup time - sleep through 1st period and get As...

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:26PM

Florisian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is all good info. Just trying to figure out what the average student
> pursues, if not IB, and are they satisfied and prepared for a collegiate
> program.

Yes SL can get the average non-IB kid ready for college with some adaptations:

1) Do not follow the guidance departments canned course of studies. It's way too demanding for the average college bound student.

Buy the $35 U.S. News and World Report compendium of college profiles. Review the midquartile range of SATs and compare them to your kids PSAT scores from freshman year for the colleges your kid might be interested in. You'll see that few colleges require 4 years of science, 4 years of math, 4 years of foreign language and 4 years of social studies that the SL guidance department would have most kids take.

Most colleges want 4 years of English but only 3 of science, math & social studies and 2 of foriegn languages.

That's a generalization and someone will point out exceptions to those rules. One is CNU and JMU which want 4 years of math.

Adapt you kids course of studies of the requirements of the colleges the kids is likely to apply to.

When the time to apply to college comes, pay very close attention to the percentage of kids who graduate in 4 years as reported in U.S. News book, unless of course you kid has an unlimited trust fund and you don't mind the 6 year to a BA plan

2) Unless you have some special reason to take another foreign language, take Latin and stay the hell away from Spanish, no matter what.

Latin helps compensate for the lack of grammar and vocublary in the English classes at SL.

Everybody wants to Spanish and there aren't enough teachers. My oldest son had 4 different Spanish teachers in one year. Several Spanish teachers at SL have not been proficient in English. [That also happened in several math classes]

3) If the teacher can't speak English get you kids out of the class immediately and complain to Butler. FCPS lets too many teachers into the system whose English proficiency is not sufficiently functional to be effective teachers.

4) Be suspicious of any teachers with a PhD.

My experience is that they are failed college professors who couldn't teach college freshman and expect high school kids to pick up the material faster than is realistic.

5) Take accounting! No matter what field your kid will pursue they will be in a venture/department that has a budget, balance sheet, profit and loss statement and the like. The lack of fundamental financial literacy will cost them at every stage of their life. Mrs. Lucas is a great teacher!

6) Find a mentor parent or two in an upper class and find out who the good and bad teachers are and insist that your kid be in those classes. When the time comes, return the favor.

SL is flawed. Parents shouldn't have to work this hard to get their non-Ivy college bound kids a good education. I am not confident that Bruce is really interested in changing this experience for this population but your kids can succeed despite these limitations.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:28PM

"Demand creates supply. Increasing an under-enrolled school's membership by 40% to 50% will permit the school to offer a greater array of courses that will appeal to students of different abilities and interests. "

SLHS Parent, do you have any idea how ,what kind and when new courses are added since you are saying an increased number of students added will get the school to have more courses?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stephanie ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:33PM

I know I havn't been on this forum in a while but thought I might add a little to this discussion. Did any of you attend the redistriciting meetings? I'm sure some of you did, and I'm sure many of you have heard that South Lakes is offering tours to parents who'd like to learn a little more about the structure of South Lakes itself. Recently a student visiting from Oakton, who was a sophmore, and had the chance of being affected if the redistricitng took place visited our school, and I had the chance to speak to her. I was very pleased with what she'd discovred about South Lakes while visiting. That South Lakes was in fact a very friendly and well-behaved school, quite contrare to the rumors that are often spread about it. I understand that rumors however often allow people to stereotype certain schools, and South Lakes I'm sure as many of you know has labels and stereotypes like all schools do.What I am trying to say is that South Lakes like all schools has problems, I will not deny that. But I'm sure many of you would agree that Oakton, Westfield, Langley, Herndon and Chantilly have their problems as well. But like each school has its problems, they also have its successes. South Lakes does not differ from any school on this.I myself am a cheerleader at South Lakes and a gymnast. I take ALL IB classes, and have done so since freshmen year when I started with the Pre-IB program. And to those who believe that you have to start with the IB Program in middle school, you are wrong. I went to Carson and no such program was offered there. I did not know anyone at South Lakes when I stepped through the door on my first day, and I'm proud to say that I have made my highschool experience one I will never forget, as it has been filled with many great people and memories. I'm a 3.5 student, and when all is said an done, I will be graduating with a number of college credits.
I'm not writing on this forum however to simply brag of myself, but to tell you there are people at South Lakes who are even more successful then myself. I take IB physics with students who are being recruited by many colleges for various sports and athletics, I have IB french with perhaps some of the most successfuly academic students in my class, who are currently looking into ivy leauge schools for their undergraduate degrees. And my point is that South Lakes is not only diverse in socio-economics but also in the strengths between each student. Some are very gifted in athletics, whereas others find academics extremely promising. And I guess what I'm trying to get at is South Lakes is a school made for the individual. There are so many paths you can take with the IB diploma, with the classes, that your highschool experience is simply that, your own experience.
I understand its not for everyone, that even after this essay of a debate that parents will still complain, will still not care, and will still not give it a chance. But if by chance your still reading, if by chance you didn't already skip over my message, considering I'm from the other side, just take one chance with it. Tour the school, drop in on the classes you're interested in seeing. For some I'd suggest IB Math 1 & 2, as many parents are worried about this class. And let me tell you, I personally do not take this class but many of my friends do and they find it extremely challenging and rigorous.
But anyways just take a chance, tour the school. Look at the classes, talk to the faculty, and hey even bring your child to look at the school themself. Let them have a choice to, because remember it's not you walking through these halls everyday.
But please, before you rip my head off and start screaming just think about it okay? Thank you for your time. Any quiestons? I'd be happy to answer.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLHS Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:41PM

Don't know the particulars, Baffled. But as I understand it, this is the primary rationale. A Washington Post article a few weeks ago mentioned "multivariate calculus" as an example of a new course that could be offerd. As to "when," presumably the supply will meet the demand as it comes (i.e., in school planning terms, they'll project a year or two ahead of the grade level they're planning for).

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Demand creates supply. Increasing an
> under-enrolled school's membership by 40% to 50%
> will permit the school to offer a greater array of
> courses that will appeal to students of different
> abilities and interests. "
>
> SLHS Parent, do you have any idea how ,what kind
> and when new courses are added since you are
> saying an increased number of students added will
> get the school to have more courses?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:45PM

Stephanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know I havn't been on this forum in a while but
> thought I might add a little to this discussion.
> Did any of you attend the redistriciting meetings?
> I'm sure some of you did, and I'm sure many of you
> have heard that South Lakes is offering tours to
> parents who'd like to learn a little more about
> the structure of South Lakes itself. Recently a
> student visiting from Oakton, who was a sophmore,
> and had the chance of being affected if the
> redistricitng took place visited our school, and I
> had the chance to speak to her. I was very pleased
> with what she'd discovred about South Lakes while
> visiting. That South Lakes was in fact a very
> friendly and well-behaved school, quite contrare
> to the rumors that are often spread about it. I
> understand that rumors however often allow people
> to stereotype certain schools, and South Lakes I'm
> sure as many of you know has labels and
> stereotypes like all schools do.What I am trying
> to say is that South Lakes like all schools has
> problems, I will not deny that. But I'm sure many
> of you would agree that Oakton, Westfield,
> Langley, Herndon and Chantilly have their problems
> as well. But like each school has its problems,
> they also have its successes. South Lakes does not
> differ from any school on this.I myself am a
> cheerleader at South Lakes and a gymnast. I take
> ALL IB classes, and have done so since freshmen
> year when I started with the Pre-IB program. And
> to those who believe that you have to start with
> the IB Program in middle school, you are wrong. I
> went to Carson and no such program was offered
> there. I did not know anyone at South Lakes when I
> stepped through the door on my first day, and I'm
> proud to say that I have made my highschool
> experience one I will never forget, as it has been
> filled with many great people and memories. I'm a
> 3.5 student, and when all is said an done, I will
> be graduating with a number of college credits.
> I'm not writing on this forum however to simply
> brag of myself, but to tell you there are people
> at South Lakes who are even more successful then
> myself. I take IB physics with students who are
> being recruited by many colleges for various
> sports and athletics, I have IB french with
> perhaps some of the most successfuly academic
> students in my class, who are currently looking
> into ivy leauge schools for their undergraduate
> degrees. And my point is that South Lakes is not
> only diverse in socio-economics but also in the
> strengths between each student. Some are very
> gifted in athletics, whereas others find academics
> extremely promising. And I guess what I'm trying
> to get at is South Lakes is a school made for the
> individual. There are so many paths you can take
> with the IB diploma, with the classes, that your
> highschool experience is simply that, your own
> experience.
> I understand its not for everyone, that even after
> this essay of a debate that parents will still
> complain, will still not care, and will still not
> give it a chance. But if by chance your still
> reading, if by chance you didn't already skip over
> my message, considering I'm from the other side,
> just take one chance with it. Tour the school,
> drop in on the classes you're interested in
> seeing. For some I'd suggest IB Math 1 & 2, as
> many parents are worried about this class. And let
> me tell you, I personally do not take this class
> but many of my friends do and they find it
> extremely challenging and rigorous.
> But anyways just take a chance, tour the school.
> Look at the classes, talk to the faculty, and hey
> even bring your child to look at the school
> themself. Let them have a choice to, because
> remember it's not you walking through these halls
> everyday.
> But please, before you rip my head off and start
> screaming just think about it okay? Thank you for
> your time. Any quiestons? I'd be happy to answer.


I am sorry but I have a funny feeling about this post. Not sure why..something about the post. Didn't she make another post recently somewhere in this thread? It is amazing for a student to be a cheerleader and gymnast while taking all IB courses, wow.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: BirdLover ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:53PM

Stephanie,

Hysterical. Go IB!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:56PM

Stephanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I take ALL IB classes.

Thanks for your carefully thought out postings here.

How many kids are in each of your IB classes?

Which ones are SL and which are HL?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:02PM

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephanie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> I am sorry but I have a funny feeling about this
> post. Not sure why..something about the post.
> Didn't she make another post recently somewhere in
> this thread? It is amazing for a student to be a
> cheerleader and gymnast while taking all IB
> courses, wow.

I know this girl, though she may not know me. She's the real deal but should stop posting in her real name!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:05PM

For Stephanie the IB cheerleadersand other South Lakes fans...

Many people will enjoy South Lakes. Its a good school with many opportunities. That's not really the issue. (And I am sorry that you have to hear other things said about it, but that's not really something any of us can control.)

Other people will their kids split between schools, without the chance to take AP classes (which are offered in some 14,000 US high schools, vs. 500 with IB), going to a community where they know few other kids or parents. (My kids went to Lake Anne, so I am familiar with the Reston community.)

Some of those people will see themselves moved from Chantilly high two miles away to go to Oakton seven miles away, again possibly with siblings split between schools.

Nobody has made a compelling case that this shuffling with produce a better education for the people who have to do the shuffling. It will help the people currently at South Lakes, presumably (though there will be more competition for slots on the cheerleading squad), and it should improve the test scores for South Lakes school. But it won't improve the education for the people moving, and that's a shame.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:05PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > quantum Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > >I think the main issue is there are no honors
> > level courses for juniors and seniors in FCPS
> > HS's.
>
> If this were true, I'd agree with you, but at
> Westfield there are honors courses available at
> the junior level - e.g. honors world civ - combo
> english/history. Though it's true the schools
> have, in general, been eliminating honors. Leads
> to real problems for the bright kids, are they
> supposed to take 7 AP classes senior year? Or
> take 5 APs and sleep through the 2 regular ones?
> On the other hand, if they are careful to schedule
> the regular ones 1st period A&B days, they can
> solve the 6:30 bus pickup time - sleep through 1st
> period and get As...

Yes, it is a major problem for college bound students, having only two levels of courses in high school, AP or _____ for dummies. It is a major problem for kids who may not want to take AP English, but are bored to death in English for dummies. There really should be something else, Honors courses.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Insider ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:07PM

Stephanie,

Your post is wonderful. You make SL proud.

Please be careful of your identity! While I commend you for stepping forward and telling us your experience, keep in mind anyone can read about you. You need to be careful.

I wish you well.

Signed,

Insider

Stephanie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know I havn't been on this forum in a while but
> thought I might add a little to this discussion.
> Did any of you attend the redistriciting meetings?
> I'm sure some of you did, and I'm sure many of you
> have heard that South Lakes is offering tours to
> parents who'd like to learn a little more about
> the structure of South Lakes itself. Recently a
> student visiting from Oakton, who was a sophmore,
> and had the chance of being affected if the
> redistricitng took place visited our school, and I
> had the chance to speak to her. I was very pleased
> with what she'd discovred about South Lakes while
> visiting. That South Lakes was in fact a very
> friendly and well-behaved school, quite contrare
> to the rumors that are often spread about it. I
> understand that rumors however often allow people
> to stereotype certain schools, and South Lakes I'm
> sure as many of you know has labels and
> stereotypes like all schools do.What I am trying
> to say is that South Lakes like all schools has
> problems, I will not deny that. But I'm sure many
> of you would agree that Oakton, Westfield,
> Langley, Herndon and Chantilly have their problems
> as well. But like each school has its problems,
> they also have its successes. South Lakes does not
> differ from any school on this.I myself am a
> cheerleader at South Lakes and a gymnast. I take
> ALL IB classes, and have done so since freshmen
> year when I started with the Pre-IB program. And
> to those who believe that you have to start with
> the IB Program in middle school, you are wrong. I
> went to Carson and no such program was offered
> there. I did not know anyone at South Lakes when I
> stepped through the door on my first day, and I'm
> proud to say that I have made my highschool
> experience one I will never forget, as it has been
> filled with many great people and memories. I'm a
> 3.5 student, and when all is said an done, I will
> be graduating with a number of college credits.
> I'm not writing on this forum however to simply
> brag of myself, but to tell you there are people
> at South Lakes who are even more successful then
> myself. I take IB physics with students who are
> being recruited by many colleges for various
> sports and athletics, I have IB french with
> perhaps some of the most successfuly academic
> students in my class, who are currently looking
> into ivy leauge schools for their undergraduate
> degrees. And my point is that South Lakes is not
> only diverse in socio-economics but also in the
> strengths between each student. Some are very
> gifted in athletics, whereas others find academics
> extremely promising. And I guess what I'm trying
> to get at is South Lakes is a school made for the
> individual. There are so many paths you can take
> with the IB diploma, with the classes, that your
> highschool experience is simply that, your own
> experience.
> I understand its not for everyone, that even after
> this essay of a debate that parents will still
> complain, will still not care, and will still not
> give it a chance. But if by chance your still
> reading, if by chance you didn't already skip over
> my message, considering I'm from the other side,
> just take one chance with it. Tour the school,
> drop in on the classes you're interested in
> seeing. For some I'd suggest IB Math 1 & 2, as
> many parents are worried about this class. And let
> me tell you, I personally do not take this class
> but many of my friends do and they find it
> extremely challenging and rigorous.
> But anyways just take a chance, tour the school.
> Look at the classes, talk to the faculty, and hey
> even bring your child to look at the school
> themself. Let them have a choice to, because
> remember it's not you walking through these halls
> everyday.
> But please, before you rip my head off and start
> screaming just think about it okay? Thank you for
> your time. Any quiestons? I'd be happy to answer.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: new hawk ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:09PM

un-url Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> miffed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > new hawk Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Hey SL people,
> > >
> > > Please don't take offense to this since it is
>
> > > unrelated to the quality of parents, teachers,
>
> > > staff or students at the school but your
> website
> >
> > > is really, really lame.
> >
> >
> > As a passerby, who from time to time checks in
> > with all of your wining about moving those kids
> of
> > yours to where they need to be, since you are
> > utimately going to be affected, like it or not,
> I
> > have to ask, what is so "lame" about the South
> > Lakes website? Before I completly tear apart
> the
> > other schools' sites, please inform me as to
> what
> > makes the South Lakes site not up to your
> > standards. Then, I'll tell you how lame I think
> > the others are.
>
>
> Thanks for asking.
>
> It is hard to find info and there are areas that
> our completely dated. Went looking today for the
> latest on renovations, info on the theatre
> department and info on next Tuesday's IB meeting.
> Had a really hard time finding what I was looking
> for and some of what I found was not useful at all
> because it was old news. Who cares how lame the
> others are. It is not a competition. This is how
> consumers get info these days, so why not step up
> to the challenge. There are probably plenty of
> people looking.


Just to add to what uncle earl said, the graphics look like they were done in crayon and most of the links lead to a dated pdf file, the internet version of a piece of paper. Check out the SL sports sections and compare them to others schools, I'm just talking web content now not the whole team support issues that were discussed a few pages ago. It's not like the other schools websites are that great either, their just far better than SL.

I know the football team didn't win many games but they do have a receiver getting scholarship offers from several big-time schools (wouldn't have not that if not for the Wash Post). The bball team is usually pretty good, didn't they just beat herndon? I know SL doesn't promote itself as a sports school but the website gives the impression that they are, at best, an afterthought.

Again, not a personal criticism of anyone but a lot more people are going to check out the website and form an impression before walking the halls of the school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:10PM

>>>Nobody has made a compelling case that this shuffling with produce a better education for the people who have to do the shuffling. It will help the people currently at South Lakes, presumably (though there will be more competition for slots on the cheerleading squad), and it should improve the test scores for South Lakes school. But it won't improve the education for the people moving, and that's a shame.<<<

That's exactly the problem. The school board is asking some families and students to give up their education, their AP program, to help a school in another district to have more educational options. It's very hard to ask any parent to do that.

Plus, I am not understanding why South Lakes doesn't have the same opportunities as any other school when they have exactly the same number of teachers as Madison, a school with 500 more students. With so many teachers for so few students, it would seem that South Lakes could offer many classes with very low numbers of students.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:15PM

liberal gazette reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nice article in the post today saying how the FCSB
> just heard arguements about the community wanting
> to place a "TJ" west at SLHS instead of
> redistricting. I thought this was brought up
> about 6 months ago

It was mentioned months ago and I missed it in today's Post. Could you provide us with a link? thanks.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:21PM

Thomas,
Excellent recommendations for any high school. We have not had the problem with non English speaking teachers in FCPS, but it is a problem in many colleges, particularly in math and engineering.

One question, don't kids have to take 4 yeas of math for the advanced diploma?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:21PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Plus, I am not understanding why South Lakes
> doesn't have the same opportunities as any other
> school when they have exactly the same number of
> teachers as Madison, a school with 500 more
> students. With so many teachers for so few
> students, it would seem that South Lakes could
> offer many classes with very low numbers of
> students.

That's a damn good question.

Especially when non-IB classes that my kids have signed up for at SL are canceled in August cause there aren't enough teachers/not enough kids signed up.

Butler said 700 more kids gets 17 more teachers. To do what? Teach Human Geography?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:23PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> Excellent recommendations for any high school. We
> have not had the problem with non English speaking
> teachers in FCPS, but it is a problem in many
> colleges, particularly in math and engineering.
>
> One question, don't kids have to take 4 yeas of
> math for the advanced diploma?

To which advanced diploma do you refer?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:28PM

Sounds like a management problem at South Lakes when they have so many teachers yet parents complain their students can get the classes they want.

Of course, classes are often canceled at Madison too, when not enough kids sign up. Do SL parents not realize that this happens at every school?

With the so many teachers at South Lakes for so few students, it would seem that cancellations would be less common than at other schools.

If South Lakes becomes equal in number to Madison, they will have far more teachers than Madison. It doesn't seem fair to ask parents to move their children to South Lakes so that they can have an EVEN BETTER teacher-student ratio.

BTW, any idea why South Lakes needs an office staff of 14, while Oakton, with 1,000 more students, and Madison with 500 more students, get by with an staff of 10?

Why does South Lakes need so many more employees than Madison, a much larger school?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:28PM

Folks: You seem to be using demographic and other student/teacher/testing data as posted on school websites to draw conclusions impossible from this information. These are short-cut numbers and do not in any way reflect the "schools on the ground."

You will find that almost none of the FCPS data regarding numbers of teachers, ratios, average scores, etc. at ANY school comes close to reflecting what actually goes on there. Average class size, for example. Say it's "28." What the heck does that mean? Some classes could have 10, some 46. Now you have an average of 28. Same with scores.

Teacher ratios? Ever consider that certain funding formulas, like support from the state and even federal governments, depend on this number? So these numbers are "tweaked" if you will so schools can tweak the most money and best "statistics" out of resources.

And special ed teachers, for example, depend on the needs of the students -- you KNOW that the variances among these kids is tremendous -- way, way beyond variances in gen ed. So the teacher needs and ratios have to vary. This list goes on.

You are trying to make chocolate milk out of strawberry sauce -- actually, out of strawberry sauce substitute.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:31PM

It's totally up to the principal how he allocates his staff. He gets staff based on a ratio, it's his choice how he uses it.

Every school has an ED center, or an LD self contained center, or a center for hearing impaired, or MMR center.

IB schools get a bigger staff than the other schools but South Lakes staff and teachers are particularly large for such a small school. It would seem to get more than their fair share, despite all the whining to the contrary.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:35PM

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas,
> > Excellent recommendations for any high school.
> We
> > have not had the problem with non English
> speaking
> > teachers in FCPS, but it is a problem in many
> > colleges, particularly in math and engineering.
>
> >
> > One question, don't kids have to take 4 yeas of
> > math for the advanced diploma?
>
> To which advanced diploma do you refer?

FCPS advanced diploma, the one most college bound students get. http://www.fcps.edu/ss/StudentServices/Guidance/SCO/GradReq/AdvancedDiploma.pdf#xml=http://search.fcps.edu/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/webinator/search/xml.txt?query=advanced+diploma&pr=public&prox=sentence&rorder=750&rprox=750&rdfreq=500&rwfreq=500&rlead=500&sufs=1&order=r&cq=&id=4789b54c4e

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:38PM

Thomas,
According the presentation at the recent work session, South Lakes will offer two AP courses next year. They did not say what course would be offered in addition to Human Geography. I assume that staff has not yet decided what second AP class they want to teach.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 16, 2008 11:54PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS advanced diploma, the one most college bound
> students get.

I've never paid attention to that claptrap. Since admissions are made before the advanced diploma is issued I seriously doubt it makes a difference for the average FCPS college bound student.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 17, 2008 12:37AM

Check this out. Pay attention to what MIT, Harvard, UPenn think of AP:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-03-20-ap-main_x.htm

What Fairfax has going for it is teacher training -- ALL teachers, including IB. So yes, this system spends money on its teachers. But it is not immune from AP "inflation."

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: January 17, 2008 01:00AM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Check this out. Pay attention to what MIT,
> Harvard, UPenn think of AP:

College professors are finally figuring out that more high school AP credits means fewer slots for professors to teach "core" or "intro. to" courses, fewer jobs for entry level profs & graduate teaching assistants and fewer semesters of tuition paid.

They were bound to figure it out sometime.

> But it is not immune from AP "inflation."

didn't see that in article

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Pton11 ()
Date: January 17, 2008 01:05AM

look, public school suck, get over it. Send your kid to private school in DC. MY schools ranking in the post (Jay Matthews ranks it by AP tests taken/total students) was 7.5 or so, way way way better than anything any public school dished out (or any other private school)

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stephanie ()
Date: January 17, 2008 02:19AM

I know I haven't posted here in a few hours but I just want to thank those of you for your support and kindness torwards my last post. It may seem unbeleivable to some of you that I can be an IB student, cheerleader and a gymnast but the fact is I and most IB students are super multitaskers. We are different from most students because we don't ever get tired. Look at me now. Its after 2 in the morning and I'm still awake writing an essay for school tommorow. This is after voluntering at the battered womens shelter and then jogging 6 miles. Sorry, I don't mean to brag again but it's just that we are incredible students, great athletes, very artistic and good citizens because we are always working to better our community.
We are over-prepared for college because we are experienced in writing long extended and very intellectual essays that most people don't and never will understand. So, before you pupil place your children or sell your homes, please come visit us. You will be pleasantly surprised by our open arms and close knit family like atmosphere. Give us a chance.
That's all I have for now. I'm sorry to have to make this so short but its late and I have to finish a 38 page paper for my english class tommorow. Any quiestons and I'd be happy to answer them

Good night
Stephanie

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: January 17, 2008 05:00AM

Stephanie,
Don't worry about the essays, you won't have to write any that long in college. If you major in math or engineering, you won't have to write any essays. A few research papers, but nothing as silly as a 38 page essay. NO ONE in real life EVER does that. Of course there are short story writers, perhaps this is good training for that profession.

What do you hope to major in?

Yes, you are a marvel. You never get tired? How strange, when teenagers biologically need 9 hours of sleep a night, and yet you aren't getting half of that. I do hope that you are not harming yourself by living like this. It's really not healthy, but I am sure you know that.

Stephanie, your perfectionism and lack of sleep scares me. I know what happens to girls like you, and it's very sad. I suspect that you also know what happens. I do hope your parents are aware of what is happening to you.

I wish girls like you didn't feel like they had to kill themselves in high school. Very sad to feel you have to do all, perfectly, before you're even 18 years old. I do hope that you can let up on yourself soon. This is no way to live.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2008 05:03AM by Neen.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: observer ()
Date: January 17, 2008 05:44AM

Lola Espanola Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> observer
> Wrote---------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > My home is not involved in the redistricting
> > issue, though it was in an earlier boundary
> > adjustment.
> >
> > I have a comment and a question.
> >
> > #1. None of the homes that were in the
> boundary
> > adjustment I went through changed in terms of
> > property values, even though they were being
> > redistricted into a supposedly underperforming
> > school, so those expressing concern about that
> > shouldn't worry.
> >
> > #2 Where is it stated that if you buy in a
> > neighborhood that feeds into a certain school,
> > that you are guaranteed your neighborhood will
> > always feed into that school?
>
>
> When was the boundary study that you were affected
> by conducted? Perhaps it was done sometime
> between 2000-2005, during which time almost all
> real estate increased in value, some years by
> double digit percentages. Maybe the reason you
> didn't notice any decrease, was that it was offset
> by the overall rising prices of the market. At
> this point, the real estate market is declining,
> or 'correcting' and many affected homeowners fear
> a double impact, with the overall real estate
> market as well as the change in high school
> boundaires.

The boundary study, and the changes that resulted were in 97-98. The housing in the neighborhoods that were worried, were fine.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Observer ()
Date: January 17, 2008 05:47AM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > quantum Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > >I think the main issue is there are no honors
> > level courses for juniors and seniors in FCPS
> > HS's.
>
> If this were true, I'd agree with you, but at
> Westfield there are honors courses available at
> the junior level - e.g. honors world civ - combo
> english/history. Though it's true the schools
> have, in general, been eliminating honors. Leads
> to real problems for the bright kids, are they
> supposed to take 7 AP classes senior year? Or
> take 5 APs and sleep through the 2 regular ones?
> On the other hand, if they are careful to schedule
> the regular ones 1st period A&B days, they can
> solve the 6:30 bus pickup time - sleep through 1st
> period and get As...

Westfield is an anomoly then. FCPS usually does not offer honors courses for their juniors and seniors. Jay Mathews has reported on this issue, taking complaints from parents at both AP and IB HS's.I taught at an AP FCPS HS that did not offer honors to their juniors and seniors.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Observer ()
Date: January 17, 2008 06:00AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds like a management problem at South Lakes
> when they have so many teachers yet parents
> complain their students can get the classes they
> want.
>
> Of course, classes are often canceled at Madison
> too, when not enough kids sign up. Do SL parents
> not realize that this happens at every school?
>
> With the so many teachers at South Lakes for so
> few students, it would seem that cancellations
> would be less common than at other schools.
>
> If South Lakes becomes equal in number to Madison,
> they will have far more teachers than Madison. It
> doesn't seem fair to ask parents to move their
> children to South Lakes so that they can have an
> EVEN BETTER teacher-student ratio.
>
> BTW, any idea why South Lakes needs an office
> staff of 14, while Oakton, with 1,000 more
> students, and Madison with 500 more students, get
> by with an staff of 10?
>
> Why does South Lakes need so many more employees
> than Madison, a much larger school?


I understand everyone's concern about the ratio, but I think the question folks potentially going to the school should focus on, is what are the teachers certified/licensed to teach.

If they are indeed adding classes, find out which courses, and who is qualified to teach them. Do they already have someone trained for the AP course(s) or are they recruiting? Any teachers currently on staff able to teach the math courses they are discussing? All math teachers (at the HS level) certainly majored in math, but some may be stronger teachers in certain courses, and not the one the school board says may soon be offered.

The teacher ratio may not matter as much as teacher certification, and/or experience.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: January 17, 2008 07:41AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephanie,
> Don't worry about the essays, you won't have to
> write any that long in college. If you major in
> math or engineering, you won't have to write any
> essays. A few research papers, but nothing as
> silly as a 38 page essay. NO ONE in real life
> EVER does that.

Stephanie,

You actually might have to write a 38 page paper in college. It depends on what your major will be. For example, in History or International Affairs I can vouch that you will write much, although at such length probably won't happen until you are a junior or senior. Writing now is good training of course, but try also to be concise.

If you plan to build a career in academia at the university level, or obtain a PhD, then expect to write multi-hundred page books if you stay in the Humanities.

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Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 17, 2008 08:28AM

">>>Hemenway would have enrolled her son in South Lakes but the school was unable to offer some of the upper level science courses he wanted because it was so small. Instead, he ended up attending Marshall High School.<<<< "

Wow, even Ms. Hemenway (a frequent poster on here and a big fan of SL) admits that the school doesn't work well for kids who want upper level science courses. I'm glad to hear it. It has a lot more impact than when Oakton/Westfield folks bring up the same issue.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: keepingwiththenews ()
Date: January 17, 2008 08:36AM

That would be nice,BUT.....that's not happening, you know why? because of the county deficit....sorry to burst your bubble. Maybe in five years from now, when the economy recovers....need to keep up with the news. School budget will be decreased.


SLHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Demand creates supply. Increasing an
> under-enrolled school's membership by 40% to 50%
> will permit the school to offer a greater array of
> courses that will appeal to students of different
> abilities and interests. The IB / non-IB dynamic
> is already structured for this to some degree, and
> adding more students will make it more so. In
> other words, it's not all or nothing. Really
> strong and motivated students can go for the IB
> Diploma. Other students can take in a few IB
> courses during their tenure to challenge them more
> in an area in which they have more aptitute or
> simply to add some academic rigor to their course
> of study (other than the intrinsic academic
> benefit, the student would earn a certificate for
> taking the course, and his/her GPA would reflect
> the higher level of difficulty). In short, the
> infusion of so may new students - some average,
> some stellar, and some in between - will allow for
> a fuller array of courses thas SLHS can add to
> both the IB and non-IB curricula, which in turn
> will alleviate the Hobson's choice suggested in
> your post. Such students will be able to chart a
> middle path more suited to their level of
> motivation and aptitude. Moreover, increasing the
> school's membership by 40% to 50% may change the
> perceived negative social/academic environment
> that so concerns "good parents with good kids (but
> who don't happen to have 135 IQ's or above)." In
> reality, most parents are in this boat, including
> SLHS parents.
>
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can anyone supportive of the IB program of SL
> > respond in a thoughtful way to Stacey Zammit's
> > post? It is one thing to demonize people for
> being
> > fearful (and ironically elitist) if there is not
> a
> > rational basis for their beliefs, but her story
> > reflects exactly what people fear about South
> > Lakes - average to above average students
> getting
> > stuck with a Hobson's choice between an
> intensive
> > IB program that is more than they can
> > realistically complete or obtain plenary
> benefit
> > from, or "general" classes that don't provide
> > sufficient challenge which by necessity must
> > respond to the needs of either non-serious
> > students or those with significantly impaired
> > educational background. And this "fear" is a
> > common one all over the country - good parents
> > with good kids (but who don't happen to have
> 135
> > IQ's or above) generally are concerned about
> their
> > kids getting lost in the shuffle in big
> suburban
> > high schools - the problem, as Stacey Zammit
> > presents it - is that the limitations she
> > describes at SLHS makes things worse.
> >
> > This is the rub, isn't it? And how will
> > redistricting solve the problem? In one sense
> I
> > could see how the problem could be made better
> if
> > there are more decent students in the general
> > classes - a time honored reality is that
> teachers
> > teach to the middle of the class and if that
> > middle is more capable than in the past - those
> > classes will be better - but that assumes that
> the
> > decent students will actually show up in
> > sufficient numbers to make a material
> difference.
> > And anticipating what SLHS supporters might say
> -
> > they might respond by stating that that is why
> it
> > is imperative that more people are compelled to
> > show up. And maybe that is right - although
> it
> > certainly is rational to be skeptical of change
> > occurring merely through administrative fiat -
> > something else, it seems to me, needs to happen.
>
> > And again, this is not a rant at SLHS, but an
> > invitation to SL supporters as to how to
> respond
> > to Stacey Zammit's apparently very real
> > predicament. It seems to me that winning the
> > hearts and minds of students like the offspring
> of
> > Stacey Zammits is exactly the right way forward
> > for South Lakes - and those hearts and minds
> won't
> > be won through a mere invocation of diversity,
> or
> > statements that it is a "gem" - people need to
> see
> > concrete solutions to obtain comfort. Not an
> easy
> > thing to do - by the way...so I say all of this
> > respectfully.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 17, 2008 08:44AM

FCO Parent: yeah. Believe every word in a newspaper article as if it wasn't taken out of context. I know the person quoted and she said it was one or two HL courses because there were not enough kids in the student body to take the course -- about 10 or 12 kids out of a Senior class of some 225. Not enough for a teacher. And the electives he wanted for his career choice were offered at Marshall and Oakton, but not SLHS -- "ordinary" electives, btw. And he wanted IB, not AP, so no Oakton. So because the school is severely underenrolled, he was denied the same opportunities that every one of his friends at Westfield, Chantilly, and Oakton get.

Do you imagine for a minute that if Oakton had about 1,000 general ed students (averaging 250 kids per grade) and it could only offer one AP Physics or AP BC Calc course, or zero AP Chemistry, or only half the electives, not for lack of interest, but for lack of pure bodies to justify a teacher -- that you wouldn't be screaming to "get" some of the Chantilly kids who are getting hit by cars to get to school because there are so many of them?

I have heard very little concern on this thread by redistricting opponents about the complete inequities in the pyramid balance. It's all about "my kid won't be in school with his brother" or "my kid won't get the 15 AP classes he's expected by me to take." It's all about "stop RD so we can do a full boundary study" by people knowing full well that would never happen and would cause rancor among 170,000 families and the outcome for South Lakes would remain the same because the same parents would be yelling the same "not me."

Does nobody here care a whit about the common good???

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 17, 2008 08:48AM

FCO parent: Also, the person quoted may have posted here a long time ago but is on the wagon b/c this thread is not benefiting the process.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 17, 2008 08:55AM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCO Parent: yeah. Believe every word in a
> newspaper article as if it wasn't taken out of
> context. I know the person quoted and she said it
> was one or two HL courses because there were not
> enough kids in the student body to take the course

I thought that IB students were guarenteed their courses? Are you telling me that in addition to not having the highest levels of math and science courses, the ones taught at AP schools, kids in the IB program might not even get to take the HL courses?

> And the
> electives he wanted for his career choice were
> offered at Marshall and Oakton, but not SLHS --
> "ordinary" electives, btw.

That's funny, because the electives my kids want don't seem to be offered at SL and probably never will be.

So because the school is
> severely underenrolled, he was denied the same
> opportunities that every one of his friends at
> Westfield, Chantilly, and Oakton get.
>

So if we send our kids to SL they will be denied opportunities they would have had if they stayed at their current school....


> Do you imagine for a minute that if Oakton had
> about 1,000 general ed students (averaging 250
> kids per grade) and it could only offer one AP
> Physics or AP BC Calc course, or zero AP
> Chemistry, or only half the electives, not for
> lack of interest, but for lack of pure bodies to
> justify a teacher -- that you wouldn't be
> screaming to "get" some of the Chantilly kids who
> are getting hit by cars to get to school because
> there are so many of them?

Well at least we can agree that some SL parents are screaming. It scares us.

Nice to make light of kids getting hit by cars.
>
> I have heard very little concern on this thread by
> redistricting opponents about the complete
> inequities in the pyramid balance. It's all about
> "my kid won't be in school with his brother" or
> "my kid won't get the 15 AP classes he's expected
> by me to take."

Or maybe "my kid can't get the high level science" or "my kid couldn't get his preferred electives"


> Does nobody here care a whit about the common
> good???

Guess we are too busy being racist bigots as we are trying to look out for our own.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 17, 2008 09:17AM

I love how the arguments go. First, SL people are lying that they need kids so that more courses are offered. Then, when through people's experience it becomes obvious that SL people aren't lying about the lack of courses, people then say "see, if my kids go to SL, they won't get the same classes". This is precisely what the redistricting is addressing. If there are more regular kids at SL, we will get more courses and all kids in the pyramid will have the same opportunities. See the relationship?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: January 17, 2008 09:25AM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love how the arguments go. First, SL people are
> lying that they need kids so that more courses are
> offered. Then, when through people's experience
> it becomes obvious that SL people aren't lying
> about the lack of courses, people then say "see,
> if my kids go to SL, they won't get the same
> classes". This is precisely what the
> redistricting is addressing. If there are more
> regular kids at SL, we will get more courses and
> all kids in the pyramid will have the same
> opportunities. See the relationship?


That is the question some of us are trying to understand--what KIND of courses and WHEN will they be available? and "regular" kids?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: IBVeritas ()
Date: January 17, 2008 10:21AM

Re racism. Sorry to disillusion folks, but I myself have heard some pretty nasty prejudicial remarks from parents who thought I was "on their side" -- about South Lakes (and Herndon). They automatically accepted all the rumors about gangs and killings and drugs and laziness and equated them immediately with blacks and Hispanics. Many times I heard (along with others who have corroborated this experience) that they chose not to live in Reston because of "that element" and the "crime" and the "low scores" and the "bad teachers" that "that element" supposedly brings. On this very thread, people have talked about the low "values" poor people (aka blacks and Hispanics) bring to the school. And then the agreeing nods from parents listening to people making these remarks.

I have to agree that there is an underlying current of racism in this county that no one wants to admit exists. It may not be a major factor in the redistricting opposition, but it is poison and I believe may underlie some of the most vehement opposition. It isn't something anyone would ever come out and admit openly because, thank goodness, most of us would respond with opprobrium. Social mores like this have some leveling effect. But those folks are here and hide their prejudice behind other arguments.

I have strayed from the purpose of my posting on this thread, which is to help set the IB record straight, so I hereby will stay out of further discussion not related to IB. (I just hope that the issue of prejudice is one that some people will ask themselves about in the privacy of their own minds.)

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: navy parent ()
Date: January 17, 2008 10:41AM

I'm having a hard time believing that parents make irrational education decisions for their children because of covert racism. Especially racism that is not bourne out by facts.

Why are parents willing to send their kids to Hunters Wood Elementary but those same parents absolutely will not send those same kids to South Lakes High?

I think the kernel of truth lies in this paradox. Figure this one out, fix it, and then you will have plenty of "desirable" kids going to South Lakes. Families will crowd into the boundary area -- much as they have with Hunters Woods -- and there would be absolutely no need to force anyone in the Oakton or Westfield areas to send their kids to South Lakes.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: January 17, 2008 11:02AM

IBVeritas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re racism. Sorry to disillusion folks, but I
> myself have heard some pretty nasty prejudicial
> remarks from parents who thought I was "on their
> side" -- about South Lakes (and Herndon). They
> automatically accepted all the rumors about gangs
> and killings and drugs and laziness and equated
> them immediately with blacks and Hispanics. Many
> times I heard (along with others who have
> corroborated this experience) that they chose not
> to live in Reston because of "that element" and
> the "crime" and the "low scores" and the "bad
> teachers" that "that element" supposedly brings.
> On this very thread, people have talked about the
> low "values" poor people (aka blacks and
> Hispanics) bring to the school. And then the
> agreeing nods from parents listening to people
> making these remarks.
>
> I have to agree that there is an underlying
> current of racism in this county that no one wants
> to admit exists. It may not be a major factor in
> the redistricting opposition, but it is poison and
> I believe may underlie some of the most vehement
> opposition. It isn't something anyone would ever
> come out and admit openly because, thank goodness,
> most of us would respond with opprobrium. Social
> mores like this have some leveling effect. But
> those folks are here and hide their prejudice
> behind other arguments.
>
> I have strayed from the purpose of my posting on
> this thread, which is to help set the IB record
> straight, so I hereby will stay out of further
> discussion not related to IB. (I just hope that
> the issue of prejudice is one that some people
> will ask themselves about in the privacy of their
> own minds.)

Thanks for the post IBveritas.

You bring up a touchy subject, and I am sure there is some "fear" based on Rumor and Innuendo regarding Reston (South Reston in particular) and South Lakes high school. I am sure that some fears are justified based on fact, while others or not. Right or wrong, perception does become the reality for many. Putting aside race for a moment, I do believe that the fear of many is also the impact on housing values for the home owners in the Fox Mill/ Floris and Madison Islands. I have seen and read the posts regarding the value of Reston homes etc., but many of the upper end SF homes in Reston do not feed to South Lakes HS. I know that this is a generalization, but you must admit that people "will pay more for a home, if they feel that the schools are "better" in one community VS. another. For many, the investment in their home is the largest that they will make, and if people feel that they could possibly see a 7%-15% decrease in value, this is a real and valid concern.

You must agree, that a home in the Langley, Madison, Oakton or Westfield will command a premium, versus a similar home that feeds to South Lakes. I have read posts from South lakes supporters, claiming that it is wrong to put material value ahead of a childs education etc., bu ask yourselves this- Why are we all hoping for our children to get the best possible education? For myself, and many others, the ultimate goal of a great education, is to have a marketable degree that will allow us to get a better paying job, so that we can buy a nice home in a nice community with good schools etc. In other words, to live the American Dream. I realize that there are some who are not as motivated by material wealth, and this is fine as well. To each his own.

As I have stated earlier, I do not see any downside for the South Lakes supporters, because of this redistricting effort, whereas those that are being forced to make a change definately carry the risk of decreased property values, drastic change in perceived quality of the schools in which they are being asked to leave. Please try to understand our side.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakto Parent ()
Date: January 17, 2008 11:16AM

What the heck are you talking about?

"And the electives he wanted for his career choice were offered at Marshall and Oakton, but not SLHS -- "ordinary" electives, btw. And he wanted IB, not AP, so no Oakton. So because the school is severely underenrolled, he was denied the same opportunities that every one of his friends at Westfield, Chantilly, and Oakton get."

The article said she lived in the Oakton district, but placed her son at Madison, which is not an IB school. Was that a typo? If he was missing any opportunity, it was only because of his choice to place out of Oakton.

"Do you imagine for a minute that if Oakton had about 1,000 general ed students (averaging 250 kids per grade) and it could only offer one AP Physics or AP BC Calc course, or zero AP Chemistry, or only half the electives, not for lack of interest, but for lack of pure bodies to justify a teacher -- that you wouldn't be screaming to "get" some of the Chantilly kids who are getting hit by cars to get to school because there are so many of them?"

Oakton doesn't offer AP physics. Should we start screaming? http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/AP%20Courses.pdf

Hayfield High (9-12), with 1582 students, about the same size and demographics as South Lakse, and 19 fewer teachers than South Lakes, offers a full slate of AP courses. South Lakes should be able to come close to this.

"I have heard very little concern on this thread by redistricting opponents about the complete inequities in the pyramid balance. It's all about "my kid won't be in school with his brother" or "my kid won't get the 15 AP classes he's expected by me to take." It's all about "stop RD so we can do a full boundary study" by people knowing full well that would never happen and would cause rancor among 170,000 families and the outcome for South Lakes would remain the same because the same parents would be yelling the same "not me."

Does nobody here care a whit about the common good???"

I think you are voicing fears with no data, and no understanding of the reality on the ground. South Lakes' choice of what to offer and not offer has relatively little to do with the raw number of students, and more to do with specifics of the school programs and the faculty. Most of the courses offered at all FCPS high schools are the same. There is relatively little pyramid imbalance, and where there is imbalance, the presence of IB programs is a large contributory factor. Other than AP courses, I challege you to list even five electives of geeneral interest (perhaps not jewelry making 3) that are offered at most FCPS high schools but not at South Lakes.

Oh, and about those Chantilly kids dropping like flies? Not to worry. From the FCPS police report:

"Personnel from Fair Oaks District Station also conducted several pedestrian
safety campaigns during the year. Using both enforcement and education, the
campaigns concentrated on the Franklin Farms subdivision, the area surrounding
the Vienna Metro Station and Stringfellow Road at Chantilly High
School. No pedestrian accidents were reported in the district in 2004."

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Re: high school redistricting
Date: January 17, 2008 11:22AM

Navy Parent,
Maybe it's because people aren't afraid that elementary school aged kids can be in gangs yet. And I don't know the answer to your question. South Lakes is a lot like Hunters Woods in terms of diversity.

I think that is part of the problem. People seem to think "diversity" is a code word for "ghetto". While that may be often true, the world is so much different than when the whole "diversity" movement started. South Lakes has poor blacks, but it also has a lot of middle and upper income blacks who move here because the schools are more tolerant racially. It also has immigrants from all over the world, who, while they may live in subsidized housing, are not disenfranchised poor. They are working for a better life for their kids. I believe this type of diversity can be enriching from my experience at Hunters Woods, and I think Fox Mill is already like this, sans the affordable housing. And, if a full complement of courses are offered for "regular kids" (ie. middle to upper middle SE kids), the environment can be even better.

We've all posted numerous times that the rumors about gangs, etc, is simply not the case. Visit for yourself, make up your own mind.. I think there are many here who fan the flames of fear for their own purposes, such as StopRD leaders, whose goal was mainly to keep Crossfield out, and Neen, whose goal in life is to get a voucher system in place.

So, I'm not sure what needs to be "fixed". Our scores for the disadvantaged kids could be better, we are working on that, but they are certainly not what people make it out to be. I will post scores later.

I bet that the many people who send their kids to Hunters Woods know these things to be true, and many would send their kids to South Lakes. I know many, actually, in Crossfield who were disappointed, or at least neutral, that they aren't coming to SL.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton parent ()
Date: January 17, 2008 11:57AM

Here's a head start on the search for missing electives...from the boundary presentation, these are courses not usually taught at smaller schools, not sure how this compares to what's taught at South Lakes:

• Sports Medicine
• Fashion Marketing
• Gourmet Foods
• Fitness and Foods
• International Foods &
Hospitality
• Philosophy
• World Religions
• Comparative Religions
• Current Affairs
• Human Anatomy and
Physiology
• American Sign Language
• Finance
• Business/Technical
Drawing
• Engineer Drawing
• Architectural Drawing
• Pre-Engineering
• Jewelry – 3D studio art
• Guitar 1, 2, 3 and Guitar
Ensemble
• Piano
• Astronomy
• Animation
• Aerospace Science 1 and 2
• Peer Mediation
• Criminal Justice
• Economics

– Discrete Math
– PreCalculus Honors
– Math Analysis
– Multivariable Calculus
– AP Statistics
– Matrix Algebra

As a hint, I don't think most of these are actually offered at larger schools, either. A number of them are academy courses. I find it hard to support righteous indignation that students are deprived of their inalienable right to study Fashion Marketing or International Foods and Hospitality in high school.

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