Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is how things work with the IB program also,
> or at least I am told this by parents who have
> kids at SL. One mom said her daughter is taking
> only 2 IB classes while another said her son is
> doing the diploma program and taking 7 classes.
> Mainly because they have different strengths.
>
> The one taking 2 can take tests to get credit in
> college just as well as anyone taking an AP class.
> They just have to get a good score on the IB Exam
> just like the AP kids. I assume that is why you
> will find a much larger percentage of kids who
> take "1 or more" IB class rather than the
> seemingly smaller percentage who are going through
> the entire IB Diploma.

----
The SLHL parents who told you this (take your pick) are misinformed/ lied to you / were lied to / are in for a rude awakening.

This specific topic has been discussed at length. Now even Jay Mathews of the Post has come to believe what we parents have been saying for years: Without the full IB Diploma (passing six IB courses and exams, including 3-4 two-year High Level courses, PLUS the Theory of Knowledge course AND the 4,000 word paper AND 150 hours of CAS, IB students can expect very few if any college credits.

As Jay Mathews, perhaos the world's biggest IB booster, writes, "Students usually can't get college credit for one-year IB courses, even though they are similar to one-year Advanced Placement courses, which are eligible for credit. In another complication, students can get credit for passing tests after two-year IB courses, but that credit is equivalent to one year in AP."

See:
Despite IB Growth, College Credit Is Elusive, Jay Mathews, The Washington Post, February 25, 2008
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/24/AR2008022402191.html

Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is how things work with the IB program also,
> or at least I am told this by parents who have
> kids at SL. One mom said her daughter is taking
> only 2 IB classes while another said her son is
> doing the diploma program and taking 7 classes.
> Mainly because they have different strengths.
>
> The one taking 2 can take tests to get credit in
> college just as well as anyone taking an AP class.
> They just have to get a good score on the IB Exam
> just like the AP kids. I assume that is why you
> will find a much larger percentage of kids who
> take "1 or more" IB class rather than the
> seemingly smaller percentage who are going through
> the entire IB Diploma.
>
> my .02.


I've followed this thread off and on since sometime before page 100 and although a few parents and students have useful insights into both AP and IB, it's about time to look for answers offline.

To me it's not so much a question of which program is better but which one is better for my kids. I've been fortunate enough to have the financial resources to prepay both my kids tuition so were not looking to finish as early as possible and both of them are stronger in reading and writing than they are in math or science, so for those reasons I can't as easily dismiss IB as others do. When I hear posters say the IB diploma program only serves about 5-8% of students I wonder if that's about the same percentage of students who take a similar workload of AP classes in an AP school, sans the community service.

I've heard from someone in FCPS admin that a student can, and some do, get into college without ever taking a single AP or IB class but they can't get into the best schools without one or the other on their transcript. Presumably the kids that just take one or more AP or IB classes are kids just trying to put together a competitive college resume and clearly if any college credit is given for either, it's more likely to be AP.

I'd like to see someone without an agenda in this debate put together a comparative guide based on individual student criterea and financial need.

>
> Ok, you win. I acknowledge you are right, and I
> and most of the rest of the world is wrong. I beg
> for your personal forgiveness.
>
> What can I offer up as recompense - then I guess
> we can achieve your peace.

Write to the SB and tell them you now realize the folly of your ways, and their folly. Tell them to suspend the current plan. Then write a check for $1000 to FairfaxCAPS.

You are all crazy . Why don't you all play with your kids or drive them to the mall, or go get your own lives. Are all parents as crazy as you all. God now I know why I don't want kids I will get as boring as horrible as all of you

1 more year of hs and I am out of here.

marcia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are all crazy . Why don't you all play with
> your kids or drive them to the mall, or go get
> your own lives. Are all parents as crazy as you
> all. God now I know why I don't want kids I will
> get as boring as horrible as all of you
>
> 1 more year of hs and I am out of here.

marcia, marcia, marcia

AFMD Wrote:
> To me it's not so much a question of which program
> is better but which one is better for my kids.
> ... were not looking to finish as early as possible and
> both of them are stronger in reading and writing
> than they are in math or science, so for those
> reasons I can't as easily dismiss IB as others do.
> When I hear posters say the IB diploma program
> only serves about 5-8% of students I wonder if
> that's about the same percentage of students who
> take a similar workload of AP classes in an AP
> school, sans the community service.

-----------
Woodson was given IB the same time as South Lakes but Woodson (which at the time had about the same number of students as South Lakes and was also facing an overdue renovation) rebelled against IB and had all their AP courses restored.

As for how it turned out, go to:
http://www.fcps.edu/woodsonhs/guidance/academics/ai_awards_ap.htm

Last year:
130 Woodson students were "AP Scholars" (grades of 3 or higher on three or more AP Exams).
60 Woodson students were named as "AP Scholars with Honor" (average grade of at least 3.25 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on four or more of these exams).
67 Woodson students were named as "AP Scholars with Distinction" (an average grade of at least 3.5 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on five or more of these exams).
7 Woodson students were "National AP Scholars" (an average grade of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 4 or higher on eight or more of these exams).

Note ALL of these students took MORE than "one or two" AP courses, and passed the exams. With 414 Seniors at Woodson last June, it looks like well over fifty percent of the students benefit from AP and are eligible for advanced placement and credit at many American colleges and universities.

jan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> marcia Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You are all crazy . Why don't you all play
> with
> > your kids or drive them to the mall, or go get
> > your own lives. Are all parents as crazy as you
> > all. God now I know why I don't want kids I
> will
> > get as boring as horrible as all of you
> >
> > 1 more year of hs and I am out of here.
>
> marcia, marcia, marcia

Alright you Brady Bunch kids get back to your family and discuss how great Coolidge High has been or has it?

IB is expensive. The IBO makes a lot of money from FCPS. No one in the community wants it and the School Board members are the only ones pushing it - Do you think the SB members are getting some financial kickbacks from pushing IB in FCPS? FCPS writes a nice fat check to IBO every year, for a program no one wants. Think about it


Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
> > To me it's not so much a question of which
> program
> > is better but which one is better for my kids.
> > ... were not looking to finish as early as
> possible and
> > both of them are stronger in reading and
> writing
> > than they are in math or science, so for those
> > reasons I can't as easily dismiss IB as others
> do.
> > When I hear posters say the IB diploma program
> > only serves about 5-8% of students I wonder if
> > that's about the same percentage of students
> who
> > take a similar workload of AP classes in an AP
> > school, sans the community service.
>
> -----------
> Woodson was given IB the same time as South Lakes
> but Woodson (which at the time had about the same
> number of students as South Lakes and was also
> facing an overdue renovation) rebelled against IB
> and had all their AP courses restored.
>
> As for how it turned out, go to:
> http://www.fcps.edu/woodsonhs/guidance/academics/a
> i_awards_ap.htm
>
> Last year:
> 130 Woodson students were "AP Scholars" (grades of
> 3 or higher on three or more AP Exams).
> 60 Woodson students were named as "AP Scholars
> with Honor" (average grade of at least 3.25 on all
> AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on four
> or more of these exams).
> 67 Woodson students were named as "AP Scholars
> with Distinction" (an average grade of at least
> 3.5 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or
> higher on five or more of these exams).
> 7 Woodson students were "National AP Scholars" (an
> average grade of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken,
> and grades of 4 or higher on eight or more of
> these exams).
>
> Note ALL of these students took MORE than "one or
> two" AP courses, and passed the exams. With 414
> Seniors at Woodson last June, it looks like well
> over fifty percent of the students benefit from AP
> and are eligible for advanced placement and credit
> at many American colleges and universities.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Peace Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ok, you win. I acknowledge you are right, and I
> and most of the rest of the world > is wrong.
>
> If only you really meant to acknowledge the
> grievances of those who lost in this process, but
> the smugness of the winner of a game that was
> rigged from the beginning and in which too many on
> the prevailing side cheated is what I detect.
>
> As to the rest of the world, in the words of one
> wag, there are at least 1 billion chinese who
> don't give a damn.
>
> > I beg for your personal forgiveness.
>
> It's not my forgiveness to give.
>
> It is the forgiveness of the parents of Floris,
> Fox Mill and Madison Island who don't want to come
> to SL; the forgiveness of the parents of Alrdin
> and Armstrong who did; the forgiveness of
> Restonians who didn't want the partition of their
> city perpetuated; the forgiveness of the majority
> of SL families who get little or nothing from the
> IB program but would get much more from AP; and it
> is the forgiveness of the Fairfax County taxpayers
> whose money is being squandered by this exercise
> that you need to seek.
>
> > What can I offer up as recompense - then I guess
> we can achieve your peace.
>
> It should be obvious. Something that helps make
> these people whole.
>
> Peace does not belong to me. It is a shared
> experience.

Thomas, with all of your raging and red-faced sputtering, I guess you could not see though this person's sarcasm in reply to your self-righteousness.

Just like the 1B Chinese who do not care about this, it is quite likely and in fact, probable that the majority of people in Fairfax do not care as much about this as the few communities affected so stop working yourself into a frenzy, take a deep breath or two, have a beer or two and relax.

Then wait a day or two, and revisit the topic.

Does anyone what percentage of kids at Westfields, Chantilly and Oakton took at least one AP course?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Questioner Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is how things work with the IB program
> also,
> > or at least I am told this by parents who have
> > kids at SL. One mom said her daughter is taking
> > only 2 IB classes while another said her son is
> > doing the diploma program and taking 7 classes.
> > Mainly because they have different strengths.
> >
> > The one taking 2 can take tests to get credit
> in
> > college just as well as anyone taking an AP
> class.
> > They just have to get a good score on the IB
> Exam
> > just like the AP kids. I assume that is why you
> > will find a much larger percentage of kids who
> > take "1 or more" IB class rather than the
> > seemingly smaller percentage who are going
> through
> > the entire IB Diploma.
>
> ----
> The SLHL parents who told you this (take your
> pick) are misinformed/ lied to you / were lied to
> / are in for a rude awakening.
>
> This specific topic has been discussed at length.
> Now even Jay Mathews of the Post has come to
> believe what we parents have been saying for
> years: Without the full IB Diploma (passing six IB
> courses and exams, including 3-4 two-year High
> Level courses, PLUS the Theory of Knowledge course
> AND the 4,000 word paper AND 150 hours of CAS, IB
> students can expect very few if any college
> credits.
>
> As Jay Mathews, perhaos the world's biggest IB
> booster, writes, "Students usually can't get
> college credit for one-year IB courses, even
> though they are similar to one-year Advanced
> Placement courses, which are eligible for credit.
> In another complication, students can get credit
> for passing tests after two-year IB courses, but
> that credit is equivalent to one year in AP."

I feel sorry for the poor, naive parent who fell for the "You can just take IB classes based on your strengths and it won't make a difference to your college admissions" song and dance.

I am a South Lakes graduate and I received credit for a total of 1 (one) IB course - English Higher Level (a two year course). The credit I received would be the equivalent of one year in a AP English Literature class.


The only reason I got credit was because I received a 6 on my exam. (IB is graded 1-7 and AP is graded 1-5). I found that most colleges only will give you credit for a 6 or 7 on an IB exam and it MUST BE Higher Level. You will get no credit for standard level.

Basically, it is a waste of time and effort to take Standard Level IB. But you won't find anyone at South Lakes who would tell you that. They like to make it out that it is all the same. DO NOT FALL FOR THIS!

Personally, I believe that doing the full IB Diploma (passing six IB courses and exams, including 3-4 two-year High Level courses, PLUS the Theory of Knowledge course AND the 4,000 word paper AND 150 hours of CAS) puts unnesessary and needless stress on todays high schoolers who will be missing out on playing sports with their friends and participating in musical ensembles, etc.

I could go on to related my experience in high school with the kids I knew getting so stressed from lack of sleep that I was seriously worried about their mental states. I will if anyone wants, but I think I've written enough for now.

My qualifications for writing this post: IB English HL, 6; IB Chemistry HL, 5; IB Math SL, 5; IB French SL, 7; AP French Language (commuted to Oakton HS), 4. (HL = Higher Level, SL = Standard Level)

Seems like the online edition of the post article says,

Class was 900 pound gorilla in the room.

But my printed edition says

Race was 900 pound gorilla in the room.

Change from Race to Class. hmm. Interesting !!

Stu saying Floris and FM parents are racist.

AP* Wrote:
> Does anyone what percentage of kids at Westfields,
> Chantilly and Oakton took at least one AP course?

From the state web site for 05-06 - compiled 4/20/2007.
School / Sr's Awarded full IB Diploma / Stus taking at least 1 AP Exam
ANNANDALE 16 /51
CENTREVILLE 0 / 740
CHANTILLY 0 / 786
EDISON 37 / 25
FAIRFAX 0 / 699
FALLS CHURCH 0 / 410
HAYFIELD 0 / 423
HERNDON 0 / 737
JEFFERSON 0 / 1128
LAKE BRADDOCK 0 / 956
LANGLEY 0 / 668
LEE 30 / 0
MADISON 0 / 622
MARSHALL 50 / 2
MCLEAN 0 / 678
MOUNT VERNON 15 / 1
OAKTON 0 / 793
ROBINSON 74 / 621
SOUTH COUNTY 0 / 203
SOUTH LAKES 21 / 3
STUART 16 / 121
WEST POTOMAC 0 / 494
WEST SPRINGFIELD 0 / 618
WESTFIELD 0 / 938
WOODSON 0 / 876

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> Woodson was given IB the same time as South Lakes
> but Woodson (which at the time had about the same
> number of students as South Lakes and was also
> facing an overdue renovation) rebelled against IB
> and had all their AP courses restored.
>
> As for how it turned out, go to:
> http://www.fcps.edu/woodsonhs/guidance/academics/a
> i_awards_ap.htm
>
> Last year:
> 130 Woodson students were "AP Scholars" (grades of
> 3 or higher on three or more AP Exams).
> 60 Woodson students were named as "AP Scholars
> with Honor" (average grade of at least 3.25 on all
> AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or higher on four
> or more of these exams).
> 67 Woodson students were named as "AP Scholars
> with Distinction" (an average grade of at least
> 3.5 on all AP Exams taken, and grades of 3 or
> higher on five or more of these exams).
> 7 Woodson students were "National AP Scholars" (an
> average grade of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken,
> and grades of 4 or higher on eight or more of
> these exams).
>
> Note ALL of these students took MORE than "one or
> two" AP courses, and passed the exams. With 414
> Seniors at Woodson last June, it looks like well
> over fifty percent of the students benefit from AP
> and are eligible for advanced placement and credit
> at many American colleges and universities.

Thanks, that helps quantify it somewhat. Now lets say an IB school student does the equivalent of "AP Scholar" work. First of all what what would that amount to in terms of workload (ie- 3 SL, 1 HL + 1 SL) and what are the prospects for each to have the same chance of getting into a given college, as opposed to getting college credit, for the same amount of work.

I've heard somewhere that there is talk about having IB students who want AP class credit sit for AP tests. Presumably, you don't have to take an AP class itself to take an AP test. Anyone know anything more about that?

I don't understand this entirely, but from my understanding, SL courses are equivalent to honors courses, and HL courses are equivalent to AP courses. So when people talk about 2 year IB courses, it is really euivalent to an honors course followed by an AP course.

I think there are a lot of people who do not understand this and are posting misinformation about AP/IB. Don't take the advise posted here as gospel--these issues need to be definitely answered by the IB/AP people at FCPS. They so far have not articulated these differences/similarities very well.

I also think Forum Reader is posting misinformation. You can get credit for individual IB courses just like AP, and you don't need to get the diploma to get them.

Also, IB is becoming more known by colleges, and more are offering credit, so information that is more than a year old is probably dated. Again, we need information direct from accurate sources who understand both programs.

If you want to hear from the kids who take IB, go to www.ibscrewed.net. it is a forum for kids to share experiences about IB, test results, and study strategies. Do not be misled by the title. There are positive and negative testimonials on the site from around the world. The title must be some kid-oriented irreverance.

You need to create an account (free) just like here.

Please do not be mean to the kids there. I am stridently opposed to IB, but I would never want to post anything on the kids blog. Leave them in peace or in misery, as you find them. Seems to me that most are in misery.

Also, it comes across that the curriculum is set by Europeans with a certain political philosophy. I am not sure it is good or bad philosophy, but I don't like that it is foreign (a.k.a. not American). Reading the kids' posts, it seems more and more that TOK is crap, the kids are stressed, the colleges in the US do not give IB the same weight as AP. I have tried so hard to open to the idea, but I think IB should only be an option to a regular AP education. If a SB cannot afford both in the same school, then drop IB. Here in Fairfax county, there is no free market...that is, if kids could choose between both within their schools, I think most would be picking AP. It is a shame the county is the way it is.

Based upon the below numbers,IB is a big failure and is not worth the time or money.Sounds like you need less IB HS and more schools with full AP courses.



Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP* Wrote:
> > Does anyone what percentage of kids at
> Westfields,
> > Chantilly and Oakton took at least one AP
> course?
>
> From the state web site for 05-06 - compiled
> 4/20/2007.
> School / Sr's Awarded full IB Diploma / Stus
> taking at least 1 AP Exam
> ANNANDALE 16 /51
> CENTREVILLE 0 / 740
> CHANTILLY 0 / 786
> EDISON 37 / 25
> FAIRFAX 0 / 699
> FALLS CHURCH 0 / 410
> HAYFIELD 0 / 423
> HERNDON 0 / 737
> JEFFERSON 0 / 1128
> LAKE BRADDOCK 0 / 956
> LANGLEY 0 / 668
> LEE 30 / 0
> MADISON 0 / 622
> MARSHALL 50 / 2
> MCLEAN 0 / 678
> MOUNT VERNON 15 / 1
> OAKTON 0 / 793
> ROBINSON 74 / 621
> SOUTH COUNTY 0 / 203
> SOUTH LAKES 21 / 3
> STUART 16 / 121
> WEST POTOMAC 0 / 494
> WEST SPRINGFIELD 0 / 618
> WESTFIELD 0 / 938
> WOODSON 0 / 876

I took the AP Calculus BC exam. I got a 3. There was NO WAY I was fully prepared to take that exam from what was taught in my IB Math class. I would have gotten a 2, except that I had studied a bit extra using an AP exam review guide and memorized a few things I hadn't learned. There were a LOT of things on that exam that I did not recognize.

So no, you cannot take the AP test and expect to pass after taking IB classes.

Also, I took AP French Language at Oakton HS my senior year. I probably would not have done as well on that test either, had I taken it without having taken the AP class.

Plus I believe the books you read for AP English Lit are different than those for IB English, barely any overlap.

Furthermore, when I entered college, to get credit to go into a higher level of Chemistry, I had to sit for an old AP Chem exam given by the Chemistry Professors. I did not pass, even after studying an AP study guide. I got a 5 on my HL IB Chem exam. There was no comparaison between the two exams. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

In conclusion, the programs are different and there is no way you could pass the AP exams after taking IB courses without a LOT of extra studying.

Do you really want your kids to go through two (2) three to four hour exams for EACH class they have taken?

ok can i just ask this why are you against having your kids go to south lakes im not talking about blah blah blah long route blah blah blah IB ( I can understand thats a big deal but besides that what else? )

do you think its a bad school because of the kids in it ? are you afraid they are violent, gang members, drama queen + kings


I just want to know why

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand this entirely, but from my understanding, SL courses are
> equivalent to honors courses, and HL courses are equivalent to AP courses. So
> when people talk about 2 year IB courses, it is really euivalent to an honors
> course followed by an AP course.

No, the two year HL courses are two year courses

> I think there are a lot of people who do not understand this and are posting
> misinformation about AP/IB.

Like your posting?

> Don't take the advise posted here as gospel--these issues need to be definitely
> answered by the IB/AP people at FCPS. They so far have not articulated these
> differences/similarities very well.

The FCPS staff have not been credible on comparisons of AP/IB, instead it has been a snake oil sales job for IB with half-truths and dissembling.

> I also think Forum Reader is posting misinformation.

She can defend herself but she has been more reliable than most.

> You can get credit for individual IB courses just like AP, and

At most colleges, only 2 year HL course get college credit.

> you don't need to get the diploma to get > them.

The one accurate statement in this posting.

> Also, IB is becoming more known by colleges, and more are offering credit, so
> information that is more than a year old is probably dated. Again, we
> need information direct from accurate sources who understand both programs.

But we aren't going to get it from FCPS staff who have a vested interest in defending the decision to impose it on SL and other schools.

Because I dont think it is a good school for average students. The IB program is good only for handful of elitists. AP program is more balanced and provides better education and rewards for the students career. Rest of of the issues are only brought up by SLHS themselves. Take a drive through the Floris communities RD into SLHS. You will very few whites - mainly immigrants - so that race argument Stu Gibson and SLHS is using is all crap.
And you wont these Floris students at SLHS even after this RD. Most will either pupil place or move. These are people who have migrated from all over the world, and seen and experienced characters like Stu Gibson many times before. These parents wont let Stu stand between their children and a good education. ( But I must admit I have not seen a politician such as Stu before - with such single minded focus to go after children. Usually children are off limits in political fights in most other areas of the world)

Fiona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok can i just ask this why are you against having
> your kids go to south lakes im not talking about
> blah blah blah long route blah blah blah IB
> ( I can understand thats a big deal
> but besides that what else? )
>
> do you think its a bad school because of the kids
> in it ? are you afraid they are violent, gang
> members, drama queen + kings
>
>
> I just want to know why

SLPP wrote:

"I also think Forum Reader is posting misinformation. You can get credit for individual IB courses just like AP, and you don't need to get the diploma to get them. "

To the "eye" of a college or university recognizing both the AP and/or IB, how much college credit would one earn for taking an individual IB course or an AP course? Earning college credit for an individual IB or AP course is different, is that right?

In the guise of trying to be helpful, SLPP posts:

"I also think Forum Reader is posting misinformation. You can get credit for individual IB courses just like AP, and you don't need to get the diploma to get them."

Please read the Washington Post article from last Monday. You will learn that you are the one spreading misinformation, at least for the colleges most students in FCPS are likely to apply to / attend.

Please, please, stop trying to "help" by posting incorrect information, even if it seems to be what you'd like to be true. It's not helping.

Fiona - I attended a state championship high school event this weekend and chatted with very well educated parents of two competing athletes who live in a city of 125,000 in southern Virginia. Their kids' school has many of the same demographic and conduct challenges as South Lakes - meaning some very good students, mixed in with some very challenging students - and they, as parents of two kids who are very good students - have long been nervous about their public high school, particularly in comparison to two smaller and much higher Great Schools ranked- schools nearby. There is the safety factor - but they agree that these concerns are overblown because the serious students/good kids tend to keep to themselves and vice versa - and the school, like SLHS - is hypersensitive to safety and conduct issues. And there is the academic factor - which really doesn't touch their kids because their kids are in the zone of taking 8/9 AP classes. So their kids get a good education - one is UVa bound, the other, younger one, likely so too. Note that their classroom experience is not that diverse, while the school itself is. Sound familiar?

I find it useful to raise these parents and this south central Virginia school as an example because these demographic challenges are occurring all over the country and there is some merit to the position of those who have argued for RD because no matter how much energy seems to be applied to improving the lot of certain groups - not much has worked and schools with too many of these students just suffer. One of the biggest disappointments has been the failure of certain groups of students to close the achievement gap after the civil rights gains of the 60's - after a period of improvement until the mid-80's - the gap widened for about 10 years and thereafter has stayed depressingly the same. SLHS is a microcosm of what is taking place all over the country.

As far as South Lakes goes - as regards the better students, IB really isn't a good fit for some of them - not sure it is worth getting upset over because the County should permit pupil placement - and most parents of these very good students will make the sacrifice in terms of car pools, etc, to get it done. Too bad SL is so wedded to IB - because it will in my view have a net negative of placements (more going away than coming in) because of IB - not a luxury they can afford - but, the data will bear this out. But IB remains good for a very small group - good for them.

As far as the average students - those are the kids with reason for concern - the
"middle" that is taught to at SLHS for these classes likely suffers in comparison to surrounding schools - it just makes sense that this is so and anecdotally there seems to be evidence for this - and accordingly, I would, if I were a parent of average kids, really be wary of the environment I was sending my kid into at SLHS - if only because average kids, and particularly boys, find it often fairly easy to be kicked off target and run off the rails academically - and all public schools - from Langley to Oakton to SLHS - you name it - are not devoted to vigilantly keeping average kids from underachieving. It often takes very little to get them off track - including being less than inspired by peers even less devoted to studies than they are. I think the euphemism is that these classes need more "focus and discipline".

This is in my view a fair assessment of the challenges. And while the "fears" are overblown, they are also to a degree rational - and the school system's lack of vigilant focus on excellence has caused a vacumn which has been filled to a large extent by fear and anxiety - coupled with ancillary concerns about property values and the like in a lousy real estate market.

Viewed from the perspective of distance - I simply don't know why the SB hasn't taken drastic steps to improve Dogwood, Terraset, and McNair and schools like it. This is the real cause of the problems - and while these are very challenging populations, there are programs that have worked - such as those championed by Abigail Thernstrom in Massachusetts. I understand that the liberal ideologues can't stand the Thernstroms and their clarion call for accountability and things that work - like phonics and traditional math teaching - but heck, they can point to results - Massachusetts, hardly a liberal state - has seen great improvement because they were willing to cast aside their ruinous liberal pedagogy. With all of the money and resources here, I just don't understand why these kind of programs have not been adopted at these schools. And note, while the defection of good students from these schools due to NCLB - yes, the good students that pass leave while no or one non-passing student transferred - makes the challenge even greater the challenge is really an opportunity - with many of the better students transferring, an entirely different form of basic curriculum - note different than anything else in the county - could be adopted. Note the south Central Virginia school doesn't have much money and thus has some plausible excuse in graduating a big chunk of functional illiterates - but that can't wash here - or so one would think.

One would hope that the RD brings these points to the surface - because frankly, we all will benefit - the negative externalities we bear from significant groups failing to receive a decent education are simply huge.

Oakton Parent
"in the guise"??? I'm intentionally trying to decieve? You guys really need to get a life and stop being so paranoid.
Also, I'm just trying to get the facts like all of you. I don't know all the information and where I stand on this issue, so I'm not saying what "I'd like" to be true. I'm just stating what I think based on what I've heard.

There has been a lot of misinformation posted here about AP/IB. I'm telling people to get the facts from AP/IB experts, not depend on the information posted here, and get a true comparison of apples to applies.

TM,
Are you saying that there are not honors prerequisites that is often taken before taking an AP class? If there is an honors class that is taken prior, that is the equivalent of an SL IB class. Honors classes don't get credit either, so why would you expect SL to get credit?

Basically, he is telling us that the other FCPS principals are lying?

not giving up Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> During a conversation with Mr. Butler at SL, he
> stated that the reason why their stats for
> "incidents" was higher than the other high schools
> was because they notate everything. no matter how
> small. The other schools just don't put much in
> the record.

Fiona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok can i just ask this why are you against having
> your kids go to south lakes im not talking about
> blah blah blah long route blah blah blah IB
> ( I can understand thats a big deal
> but besides that what else? )
>
> do you think its a bad school because of the kids
> in it ? are you afraid they are violent, gang
> members, drama queen + kings
>
>
> I just want to know why


Fiona - run the numbers:


Go to the FCPS site and pull down the SAT and SOL figures for madison and south lakes

Don't just compare headline pass rates but look at failure rates and advanced pass rates

Compare the SOL scores for minority and disadvantaged groups between the two schools (just to show this isn't a race or class thing)

Go to VDOE and calculate the relative proportions of kids taking SATs at the two schools

Then ask "why is SLHS performance so poor with 40% higher staff student ratios"

--

Then, if you're still not sure, do the same for SOL figures at Hughes and Thoreau - again focusing on advanced pass and failure as well as headline pass rates

Then ask "could Hughes remain open without the GT center"

--

Then ask yourself why parents were so angry at this forced annexation



its not class or race - its about performance

As far as I know, for the most part, elementary schools in Fairfax County are neighborhood schools. Children go to their neighborhood (base school) based on where thy live. They are not "sent" there. If that neighborhood is largely subsidizwd housing (like Dogwood is) then they will inherantly have issues that reflect those demographics.

Schools and teachers can only do so much... a child's success is primarily due to the support that they get at home. Just because a person has to move their family into subsidized housing, does not mean they are bad people. Many are hardworking people who are doing their best to provide for their family. And then frankly, some are plain neglectful and do not give their children the attention they deserve and do not set expectations for their children to raise their station in life. For this later set of people... instead of further setting their children up for failure, we should be making an effort to get through to these kids that they DO have options and they CAN make a difference and they are WORTH caring about. They do not have the stable home life and parents determined to fight for them like our kids have.

I know what I am talking about. I live in subsidized housing. I am not worried about my kids because, even though I cannot give them everything they want, I can give them everything they need... including a sense of academic confidence and hope for a bright future. As for my neighbors' kids... yes, I care about them too. Including the 66% of students who come from "advantaged" homes.

The problem with trying to change SLHS from IB to AP is that in so many ways IB's very framework supports the diversity of the school. It benefits all of the students AND can make a significant difference in the community as a whole. I know SL had a lot of problems in the past... but the IB program and Bruce Butler were brought into the picture to change all that. And it has already made a big difference. No one can expect things to turn around over night. All we can do is keep trying to be a part of the solution.

We are not "gloating" at anyone else's pain, certainly not. We want redistricted families to know that we recognize that this is difficult for them, but we are looking forward to showing them that they can and will fit in at South Lakes. I do not know one person here who holds any animosity toward you. In fact, we desperately want to help ease your anxieties. Please let us.

In regard to college credit, I can identify. But I really do have faith that many things are in the works over the next few years that will change the current status quo on this issue. Students at SLHS do take AP exams. The school does have some AP courses and some students take online ones (paid for by the county). Many students take advantage of summer school as well. I also believe Mr. Butler will bend over backwards to offer any course that has enough interest behind it.

Please just give South Lakes an honest effort before you condemn it, that's all I ask.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Viewed from the perspective of distance - I simply
> don't know why the SB hasn't taken drastic steps
> to improve Dogwood, Terraset, and McNair and
> schools like it. This is the real cause of the
> problems - and while these are very challenging
> populations, there are programs that have worked -
> such as those championed by Abigail Thernstrom in
> Massachusetts.

Ok, so what has worked and how well?

It's not like any reasonable and fair minded person wouldn't like to see poor families succeed in the classroom and thus end a legacy of poverty but those same people probably doubt even the greatest politicians, teachers, principals, administrators and bureaucrats can overcome the challenges a family, likely a single parent at that, have to face to survive when they are likely not well educated themselves and also likely to have only recently begun to learn english.

Bottom line; if a parent or parents can't or won't take the steps to ensure their children are good students and citizens what good are the Abigail Thernstrom's of the world.

Then it makes more sense to wait few years to do this RD. There is no urgency to it.

c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as I know, for the most part, elementary
> schools in Fairfax County are neighborhood
> schools. Children go to their neighborhood (base
> school) based on where thy live. They are not
> "sent" there. If that neighborhood is largely
> subsidizwd housing (like Dogwood is) then they
> will inherantly have issues that reflect those
> demographics.
>
> Schools and teachers can only do so much... a
> child's success is primarily due to the support
> that they get at home. Just because a person has
> to move their family into subsidized housing, does
> not mean they are bad people. Many are
> hardworking people who are doing their best to
> provide for their family. And then frankly, some
> are plain neglectful and do not give their
> children the attention they deserve and do not set
> expectations for their children to raise their
> station in life. For this later set of people...
> instead of further setting their children up for
> failure, we should be making an effort to get
> through to these kids that they DO have options
> and they CAN make a difference and they are WORTH
> caring about. They do not have the stable home
> life and parents determined to fight for them like
> our kids have.
>
> I know what I am talking about. I live in
> subsidized housing. I am not worried about my
> kids because, even though I cannot give them
> everything they want, I can give them everything
> they need... including a sense of academic
> confidence and hope for a bright future. As for
> my neighbors' kids... yes, I care about them too.
> Including the 66% of students who come from
> "advantaged" homes.
>
> The problem with trying to change SLHS from IB to
> AP is that in so many ways IB's very framework
> supports the diversity of the school. It benefits
> all of the students AND can make a significant
> difference in the community as a whole. I know SL
> had a lot of problems in the past... but the IB
> program and Bruce Butler were brought into the
> picture to change all that. And it has already
> made a big difference. No one can expect things
> to turn around over night. All we can do is keep
> trying to be a part of the solution.
>
> We are not "gloating" at anyone else's pain,
> certainly not. We want redistricted families to
> know that we recognize that this is difficult for
> them, but we are looking forward to showing them
> that they can and will fit in at South Lakes. I
> do not know one person here who holds any
> animosity toward you. In fact, we desperately
> want to help ease your anxieties. Please let us.
>
> In regard to college credit, I can identify. But
> I really do have faith that many things are in the
> works over the next few years that will change the
> current status quo on this issue. Students at
> SLHS do take AP exams. The school does have some
> AP courses and some students take online ones
> (paid for by the county). Many students take
> advantage of summer school as well. I also
> believe Mr. Butler will bend over backwards to
> offer any course that has enough interest behind
> it.
>
> Please just give South Lakes an honest effort
> before you condemn it, that's all I ask.

C'mon wrote:

"It benefits all of the students AND can make a significant difference in the community as a whole. I know SL had a lot of problems in the past... but the IB program and Bruce Butler were brought into the picture to change all that"

Please keep in mind that the IB program is not for every student. These redistricted families are still very upset and dealing with their own feelings after being disrupted hugely especially if they and their kids had plans to pursue the AP curriculum in their former high schools.

Run the Numbers and Quantum just made the argument for redistricting. Low income students who comprise a smaller percentage of the overall student population do better than those in schools where they make up a larger group.

You cannot compare minority scores because you don't know the socio-economic status of the minority groups. Economic status is a better indicator.

"I understand that the liberal ideologues can't stand the Thernstroms and their clarion call for accountability and things that work - like phonics and traditional math teaching - but heck, they can point to results - Massachusetts, hardly a liberal state - has seen great improvement because they were willing to cast aside their ruinous liberal pedagogy. With all of the money and resources here, I just don't understand why these kind of programs have not been adopted at these schools."

Quantum, this school board has lost focus on its mission, in my opinion. Rather than seeking and demanding excellence across the board, they have instead focused on equalizing the schools. That has been evidenced by Dean Tisdadt's statement "We think all FCPS schools are excellent", and the drive to equalize the school attendance numbers in Western Fairfax without any serious programmatic evaluation.

The institutional culture needed to improve things requires a willingness to risk making mistakes in order to cull the good approaches from the bad ones. That culture requires ownership of mistakes -- not necessarily to penalize, but to acknowledge what is not working. Google is an excellent example of an organization that encourages experimentation and "fast failure" -- proving something does not work quickly without a large investment, in order to find the few things that do work out spectacularly well. There is scant evidence of anyone in FCPS admitting that something is not working -- how refreshing would that kind of candor be? Perhaps this is the rent-seeking behavior you previously discussed. As you described, there are some excellent, low penalty opportunities to try some new approaches.

Heretofore many of us have checked the boxes at election time, not realizing the slippage that was going on. We have been too blinded by the aggregate numbers and the performance of our own kids to realize the failure in front of our eyes.

So despite all the division among communities and the upheaval in our children's lives caused by this RD, it has had one very positive impact -- we now know what to look for in our next SB, and we all now know that we have a responsibility to serve as watchdogs over this current group. In today's Washington Post Article someone was quoted as saying that "the SB has operated under the radar".

No longer will we let that happen.

That's correct - students can take AP tests without taking AP classes. I'm told that at Richard Montgomery HS in Maryland, IB diploma candidates routinely take AP tests that are related to the IB classes that they've taken.

In FCPS, some students in AP high schools also take AP tests for courses they haven't taken. At TJ, this allows them to skip the AP classes and move straight into post-AP classes in math and computer science. FCPS charges them $85, the kids buy a $25 prep book for the AP test, and use that to prepare for the AP test. If they don't do as well as they would like the first time they can always take the same AP subject test in a subsequent year.

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've heard somewhere that there is talk about
> having IB students who want AP class credit sit
> for AP tests. Presumably, you don't have to take
> an AP class itself to take an AP test. Anyone
> know anything more about that?

hint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Run the Numbers and Quantum just made the argument
> for redistricting. Low income students who
> comprise a smaller percentage of the overall
> student population do better than those in schools
> where they make up a larger group.
>
> You cannot compare minority scores because you
> don't know the socio-economic status of the
> minority groups. Economic status is a better
> indicator.


sorry - the figures don't support your proposition

economic disadvantage
----------------------
Madison SAT 1384
SLHS SAT 1402

gap= 18


however

limited english
----------------
madison SAT 1295
SLHS SAT 1179

gap = 116

disabilities
------------
madison SAT 1433
SLHS SAT 1295

gap=138




(another hint - I'm from a working class background - that's not what makes the difference)

c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as I know, for the most part, elementary
> schools in Fairfax County are neighborhood
> schools. Children go to their neighborhood (base
> school) based on where thy live. They are not
> "sent" there. If that neighborhood is largely
> subsidizwd housing (like Dogwood is) then they
> will inherantly have issues that reflect those
> demographics.
>
> Schools and teachers can only do so much... a
> child's success is primarily due to the support
> that they get at home. Just because a person has
> to move their family into subsidized housing, does
> not mean they are bad people. Many are
> hardworking people who are doing their best to
> provide for their family. And then frankly, some
> are plain neglectful and do not give their
> children the attention they deserve and do not set
> expectations for their children to raise their
> station in life. For this later set of people...
> instead of further setting their children up for
> failure, we should be making an effort to get
> through to these kids that they DO have options
> and they CAN make a difference and they are WORTH
> caring about. They do not have the stable home
> life and parents determined to fight for them like
> our kids have.
>
> I know what I am talking about. I live in
> subsidized housing. I am not worried about my
> kids because, even though I cannot give them
> everything they want, I can give them everything
> they need... including a sense of academic
> confidence and hope for a bright future. As for
> my neighbors' kids... yes, I care about them too.
> Including the 66% of students who come from
> "advantaged" homes.
>
> The problem with trying to change SLHS from IB to
> AP is that in so many ways IB's very framework
> supports the diversity of the school. It benefits
> all of the students AND can make a significant
> difference in the community as a whole. I know SL
> had a lot of problems in the past... but the IB
> program and Bruce Butler were brought into the
> picture to change all that. And it has already
> made a big difference. No one can expect things
> to turn around over night. All we can do is keep
> trying to be a part of the solution.
>
> We are not "gloating" at anyone else's pain,
> certainly not. We want redistricted families to
> know that we recognize that this is difficult for
> them, but we are looking forward to showing them
> that they can and will fit in at South Lakes. I
> do not know one person here who holds any
> animosity toward you. In fact, we desperately
> want to help ease your anxieties. Please let us.
>
> In regard to college credit, I can identify. But
> I really do have faith that many things are in the
> works over the next few years that will change the
> current status quo on this issue. Students at
> SLHS do take AP exams. The school does have some
> AP courses and some students take online ones
> (paid for by the county). Many students take
> advantage of summer school as well. I also
> believe Mr. Butler will bend over backwards to
> offer any course that has enough interest behind
> it.
>
> Please just give South Lakes an honest effort
> before you condemn it, that's all I ask.


C'Mon...You and others are a little too defensive and perhaps guilty. What I read here is that no one is condemning SL, and except for a few, no enmity towards SL parents (other than Stewie Gibson). I'm sure you're a nice person. Families simply don't want their school feeder system turned upside down against their will after it has been done in the Floris area so many times. If you'd been jerked around five times now in the past ten years by Stewie, you'd be hesitant and defiant too. You're lucky the little general is on your side. He represents you well. Those of us in the Floris area have no connection with South Lakes, never have and probably never will. I went to the South Lakes shopping center once and found it to be too far to go for the offerings there. South Lakes will not be on our natural radar screen.

c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The problem with trying to change SLHS from IB to
> AP is that in so many ways IB's very framework
> supports the diversity of the school. It benefits
> all of the students AND can make a significant
> difference in the community as a whole. I know SL
> had a lot of problems in the past... but the IB
> program and Bruce Butler were brought into the
> picture to change all that. And it has already
> made a big difference. No one can expect things
> to turn around over night. All we can do is keep
> trying to be a part of the solution.
>

With all due respect, those of us being relocated to SL don't see that it benefits us. In particular, the math and science scores are an area of great concern. Have you made any attempts to be part of the solution for those?

> We are not "gloating" at anyone else's pain,
> certainly not. We want redistricted families to
> know that we recognize that this is difficult for
> them, but we are looking forward to showing them
> that they can and will fit in at South Lakes. I
> do not know one person here who holds any
> animosity toward you. In fact, we desperately
> want to help ease your anxieties. Please let us.

We appreciate the sentiment, truly, but remain bitter about the situation, although we continue being thankful for what we have.
>
> Please just give South Lakes an honest effort
> before you condemn it, that's all I ask.

Thanks, but no thanks. We will be pupil placing our children if the legal challenges fail, and if TJ does not work out as an option. We don't appreciate being bullied. Best wishes to you and your family -- offered in all sincerity.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> I also think Forum Reader is posting
> misinformation. You can get credit for individual
> IB courses just like AP, and you don't need to get
> the diploma to get them.
>
> Also, IB is becoming more known by colleges, and
> more are offering credit, so information that is
> more than a year old is probably dated. Again, we
> need information direct from accurate sources who
> understand both programs.

--------
I may not be making myself clear, but if you think I have posted "misinformation" please specify and I will clear it up.

An IB student often CAN get college credit for a two-year HL course, such as HL English. However, the same student would likely get TWICE as much credit for two years of AP English (English Lit and English Comp).

Most "IB students" only take one year SL courses, which rarely earn college credit, at least without the full IB Diploma.

Many AP courses need NO "honors" or other courses before students take them. For example, at Oakton, tenth graders may take AP Art History. If they get a 4 or a 5 on the exam, they have just earned 8 credits at UVA - just over half a semester.

As for "IB is becoming more known by colleges, and more are offering credit, so information that is more than a year old is probably dated" I have the credit charts from UVA, William and Mary, and VA Tech from eight years ago and for now - no significant change.

To repeat the recent quote from perhaps the world's foremost IB booster, Jay Mathews of the Washington Post: "Students usually can't get college credit for one-year IB courses, even though they are similar to one-year Advanced Placement courses, which are eligible for credit. In another complication, students can get credit for passing tests after two-year IB courses, but that credit is equivalent to one year in AP." [Despite IB Growth, College Credit Is Elusive, Jay Mathews, The Washington Post, February 25, 2008 www.washingtonpost.com]

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We will be pupil placing our children if the legal challenges fail, and if TJ > does not work out as an option

Absolutely correct. And if pupil placement and TJ and legal option fail, we will move to another area not feeding to SLHS. SLHS is not an option, it never was, and never will be. That is the reason we fought so hard.

SLPP...

Please re-read my response, and the Washington Post articl (which quotes IB coordinators, college admissions offices, and Jay Mathews), and you will see that your sources were mistaken, if your understanding of what they said is correct. Furthermore, people whom you suggest are posting information are in fact providing accurate information.

If you are sincerely tryin to find the right answer, you will read the article yourself, rather than relying on incorrect word of mouth, and quit knocking people who already go the facts.

c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as I know, for the most part, elementary
> schools in Fairfax County are neighborhood
> schools. Children go to their neighborhood (base
> school) based on where thy live. They are not
> "sent" there. If that neighborhood is largely
> subsidizwd housing (like Dogwood is) then they
> will inherantly have issues that reflect those
> demographics.
>
> Schools and teachers can only do so much... a
> child's success is primarily due to the support
> that they get at home. Just because a person has
> to move their family into subsidized housing, does
> not mean they are bad people. Many are
> hardworking people who are doing their best to
> provide for their family. And then frankly, some
> are plain neglectful and do not give their
> children the attention they deserve and do not set
> expectations for their children to raise their
> station in life. For this later set of people...
> instead of further setting their children up for
> failure, we should be making an effort to get
> through to these kids that they DO have options
> and they CAN make a difference and they are WORTH
> caring about. They do not have the stable home
> life and parents determined to fight for them like
> our kids have.
>
> I know what I am talking about. I live in
> subsidized housing. I am not worried about my
> kids because, even though I cannot give them
> everything they want, I can give them everything
> they need... including a sense of academic
> confidence and hope for a bright future. As for
> my neighbors' kids... yes, I care about them too.
> Including the 66% of students who come from
> "advantaged" homes.
>
> The problem with trying to change SLHS from IB to
> AP is that in so many ways IB's very framework
> supports the diversity of the school. It benefits
> all of the students AND can make a significant
> difference in the community as a whole. I know SL
> had a lot of problems in the past... but the IB
> program and Bruce Butler were brought into the
> picture to change all that. And it has already
> made a big difference. No one can expect things
> to turn around over night. All we can do is keep
> trying to be a part of the solution.
>
> We are not "gloating" at anyone else's pain,
> certainly not. We want redistricted families to
> know that we recognize that this is difficult for
> them, but we are looking forward to showing them
> that they can and will fit in at South Lakes. I
> do not know one person here who holds any
> animosity toward you. In fact, we desperately
> want to help ease your anxieties. Please let us.
>
> In regard to college credit, I can identify. But
> I really do have faith that many things are in the
> works over the next few years that will change the
> current status quo on this issue. Students at
> SLHS do take AP exams. The school does have some
> AP courses and some students take online ones
> (paid for by the county). Many students take
> advantage of summer school as well. I also
> believe Mr. Butler will bend over backwards to
> offer any course that has enough interest behind
> it.
>
> Please just give South Lakes an honest effort
> before you condemn it, that's all I ask.

I hope you haven't taken anything which has been said or written by those opposed to this RD as a criticism of those in any socio-economic group - especially those families in subsidized housing - I don't think that has been anyone's intention.

No-one in the community, that I know of, has objected to the additional investment which is placed at SLHS including 40% higher staff student ratios - that's the community investing in areas which could do with the additional help.

Many of the wider community are from working class backgrounds and many from families who started off in subsidized housing or came to this country with nothing. The accusation from certain members of the SB that there is a lack of understanding and support for additional investment is purely grandstanding - this has not been a class issue, regardless of Stu's attempt at the SB to summon class war.

RD-supporters have never made a convincing case that there is any shortage of opportunity at SLHS (except for one case of advanced German and the opportunity to take photography- hardly core issues)

Opposers of RD have objected to being ripped from the school communities which they have helped to build, into an IB program which they haven't chosen, in a school with extremely patchy performance - which they perceive as a choice that they wouldn't have made

Its never been an issue of not wanting to invest, but it has been an issue of coercive redistricting when the majority of those affected fundamentally disagreed with the basic premise of the process.

Would SLHS be better as a smaller school with higher investment (as now) and an IB magnet?

Or has it been better to annex unwilling communities and force them into an IB program they don't know or trust?

ibcredit? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just an FYI---
>
> My child back from UVA and I were having a
> discussion about out redistricting into an IB
> program. He was able to obtain 32 credits from AP
> while a UVA friend from Robinson with the exact
> same classes in the IB program only received 9.
> My child has a choices--graduate early to go to
> grad school or double major. Can't do that with
> just 9 credits.

I've heard the same thing, over and over. But it's obvious now that our school board doesn't care. They prefer IB, it fits their ideology, and they just don't care what parents want or how students might benefit from AP.

They just DO NOT CARE.

Hint - socio-economic status does make all the difference - in general. But race is the ten ton elephant in the room, because depressingly - black students who come from homes with near 100k in income do as well (or as poorly) as white students at the 20l level. These were the anomalies that the late John Ogbu studied in Shaker Heights, Ohio - a community with many of the same attributes as Reston. As the Thernstroms and others have commented, the achievement gap, especially when it cannot be explained by income, is enough to make a caring person cry. (Look as well at PG County - very well off by national standards in terms of income - but an absolute mess educationally). Hispanic students are only marginally better - read about the Herculean efforts of Denver's former mayor Hickenlooper - one of the best of the Clinton era pols - an effort the FCPS school board should look at - with Hispanic students. Ogbu surmised that there were cultural factors in play that needed drastic change - as a black scholar - he could more easily make that claim in the ultra PC environment of academia - and he is probably correct. But fatalism should not reign - good schools matter - and most importantly - a focus on the educational fundamentals. (One of Denver's advisers refers to everyday math in grades one through six as a truly bad program but not an awful one - whereas its extension as practiced in grades 7 and 8 is truly awful). These are very difficult subjects to talk about - but inasmuch as so many invest so much in conferring benefits and preferences based on one's pigmentation - it forces these discussions into relevancy. And the statistics on the problem schools that the poster FACTS relates are unacceptable - period. Very few of those students will "catch up" to achieve a decent level of computational prowess and literacy so needed for them to prosper at virtually anything in today's knowledge based economy - and there is little changing that - none of us can be afford to be Luddites when it comes to the changing global economy. And like it or not, invocation of liberal guilt or not, redistricting upon redistricting or not, there will be limits as to how enthused most parents will be of sending their kids to schools with reasonable number of these challenging kids. We must fix the problems in these troubled schools - and if all of the rancor on this board forces some sort of call to progress, it is easily worth it.

And yes, I agree with the posters that I did set forth the most persuasive rationale for redistricting - which of course is why honesty and candor are in order - certainly photography and culinary arts and other such nonsense have ever entered the discussion. It still begs the question as to who should absorb the "costs".

SB will never be succeed in forcing us in SLHS. They can redistrict land, brick houses into SLHS - but they wont get our children.

run the numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or has it been better to annex unwilling communities and force them into an IB program they don't know or trust?

Look into the IB program and you ll see that it affects even those students who are not taking an IB course. All teachers are IB trained. IB is a comprehensive program. It shapes attitudes and builds character. Encourages acceptance and understanding with all people. Analytical and communication skills are stressed to and among students. Students truly prioritze being helpful and contributing members of society. And this is quickly payed forward.

There is more to raising a successfull young adult than grades and college credit. Giving a child the skills to make a difference for others (as well as themselves) is a worthy goal.



Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> C'mon wrote:
>
> "It benefits all of the students AND can make a
> significant difference in the community as a
> whole. I know SL had a lot of problems in the
> past... but the IB program and Bruce Butler were
> brought into the picture to change all that"
>
> Please keep in mind that the IB program is not for
> every student. These redistricted families are
> still very upset and dealing with their own
> feelings after being disrupted hugely especially
> if they and their kids had plans to pursue the AP
> curriculum in their former high schools.

Ok, I think everyone who has followed even for a few pages gets the picture that AP gets you more college credit than IB does but it doesn't answer my previous question.

Does the same workload of classes and test scores between AP vs IB in any way enhance or limit a student's chances of being ACCEPTED into a given university? Forget the college credit issue, I'm talking just getting accepted into the school.

>>>>We must fix the problems in these troubled schools - and if all of the rancor on this board forces some sort of call to progress, it is easily worth it.<<<<

Didn't our school demonstrate on Thursday night that they do not care, they will NOT be forced to do anything, regardless? And why should they care?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>We must fix the problems in these troubled
> schools - and if all of the rancor on this board
> forces some sort of call to progress, it is easily
> worth it.<<<<
>
> Didn't our school demonstrate on Thursday night
> that they do not care, they will NOT be forced to
> do anything, regardless? And why should they
> care?

Indeed. We are paying the price for our previous passivity.

Fiona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok can i just ask this why are you against having
> your kids go to south lakes im not talking about
> blah blah blah long route blah blah blah IB
> ( I can understand thats a big deal
> but besides that what else? )
>
> do you think its a bad school because of the kids
> in it ? are you afraid they are violent, gang
> members, drama queen + kings
>
>
> I just want to know why

Fiona Fiona Fiona

What is this blah blah blah in your note. You both acknowledge and dismiss valid reasons for not wanting to go the damn school. Each family has their own criteria...here is mine: IB IB IB IB IB. Actually, my criteria is no-AP, no-AP, no-AP.

If SL had a "full" AP curriculum (sciences, math and other core subjects), I would send my kids there. For me the commute is shorter. I am willing to believe all the boosters who say the school is great. But I do not believe in IB. Read my earlier posts so many pages ago that compare AP and IB. I think IB is great for some, adequate for others. But it is not acceptable to me. IB should be a magnet or should not be offered.

Now, there are some, like the poor folks from Navy. Fiona, just where do you live...roughly...not street address...just give a neighborhood. I am sure it is within 5 miles of SL...probably within 2 miles. Wouldn't it be a pain for you to send your kids to Chantilly. Wouldn't you just hate it. The fundamental lack of empathy of this point is stupefying. The only hope for you is that you, like most others on this blog, just use the blog to be provocative, to be entertained, and to jerk folks around. No one can really be so crass, so self-centered, so ignorant as not to be able to give these poor folks their due.

Come on Fiona (or whoever you are). Try really really hard to be intelligent. The best thing you can say is "I am really sorry you folks are put in the awkward position of being sent from your home schools to a school you do not wish to be at. I wish you the best and pray that you determine what is best for you and your family. If you do come to SL, I will stand next to you as you express your right to advocate for a change in SL curriculum, and to fight for what you think is best for your families. I truly am sorry for your natural and understandable anguish." Can you say that with a clear heart? If not, do you have a counselor, psychiatrist, minister or rabbi to talk to. Ask them "Why are these people so angry?" Maybe a neutral party who you trust can help you build your EQ (emotional IQ). Or maybe you can post more dumb ass questions to get a pissed off response from someone because posting on this blog is such good sport.

MIT grad,

Do you realize Fiona is a middle school student? Seriously now, calm down.


MIT grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fiona Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ok can i just ask this why are you against
> having
> > your kids go to south lakes im not talking
> about
> > blah blah blah long route blah blah blah IB
>
> > ( I can understand thats a big deal
> > but besides that what else? )
> >
> > do you think its a bad school because of the
> kids
> > in it ? are you afraid they are violent, gang
> > members, drama queen + kings
> >
> >
> > I just want to know why
>
> Fiona Fiona Fiona
>
> What is this blah blah blah in your note. You
> both acknowledge and dismiss valid reasons for not
> wanting to go the damn school. Each family has
> their own criteria...here is mine: IB IB IB IB IB.
> Actually, my criteria is no-AP, no-AP, no-AP.
>
> If SL had a "full" AP curriculum (sciences, math
> and other core subjects), I would send my kids
> there. For me the commute is shorter. I am
> willing to believe all the boosters who say the
> school is great. But I do not believe in IB.
> Read my earlier posts so many pages ago that
> compare AP and IB. I think IB is great for some,
> adequate for others. But it is not acceptable to
> me. IB should be a magnet or should not be
> offered.
>
> Now, there are some, like the poor folks from
> Navy. Fiona, just where do you
> live...roughly...not street address...just give a
> neighborhood. I am sure it is within 5 miles of
> SL...probably within 2 miles. Wouldn't it be a
> pain for you to send your kids to Chantilly.
> Wouldn't you just hate it. The fundamental lack
> of empathy of this point is stupefying. The only
> hope for you is that you, like most others on this
> blog, just use the blog to be provocative, to be
> entertained, and to jerk folks around. No one can
> really be so crass, so self-centered, so ignorant
> as not to be able to give these poor folks their
> due.
>
> Come on Fiona (or whoever you are). Try really
> really hard to be intelligent. The best thing you
> can say is "I am really sorry you folks are put in
> the awkward position of being sent from your home
> schools to a school you do not wish to be at. I
> wish you the best and pray that you determine what
> is best for you and your family. If you do come
> to SL, I will stand next to you as you express
> your right to advocate for a change in SL
> curriculum, and to fight for what you think is
> best for your families. I truly am sorry for your
> natural and understandable anguish." Can you say
> that with a clear heart? If not, do you have a
> counselor, psychiatrist, minister or rabbi to talk
> to. Ask them "Why are these people so angry?"
> Maybe a neutral party who you trust can help you
> build your EQ (emotional IQ). Or maybe you can
> post more dumb ass questions to get a pissed off
> response from someone because posting on this blog
> is such good sport.

Navy families have been given the shaft from Kathy Smith in her quest to help Stu-pid Gibson.

Folks lets face it --- a 6 - 6 tie on the amendment to keep Navy at Chantilly and Kathy casts her vote against it.

Thanks much to Liz, Tina, Brad, Dan, Mr. Raney and Mr. Moon (who by the way drove the bus route at 6:20 AM just to see for himself).

In the very next motion, Mr. Gibson says that Madison Island should go to SL because of their proximity. (Tina did ask if he wanted to reconsider his previous vote).

PROXIMITY WAS ONE OF THE SB'S KEY POINTS DURING THE TOWN HALL MEETINGS. They totally ignored their own requirements.

Oakton is a fine school but it is not 2 miles from my family's home.

And No not all of us voted for Kathy.

Gibson said that in the meeting. Gibson is better than Hitler in fooling people. SLHS is better than TJ? Did Gibson think people in the county are as stupid as himself?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
......
> correct. But fatalism should not reign - good
> schools matter - and most importantly - a focus on
> the educational fundamentals. (One of Denver's
> advisers refers to everyday math in grades one
> through six as a truly bad program but not an
> awful one - whereas its extension as practiced in
> grades 7 and 8 is truly awful). These are very
> difficult subjects to talk about - but inasmuch as
> so many invest so much in conferring benefits and
> preferences based on one's pigmentation - it
> forces these discussions into relevancy. And the
> statistics on the problem schools that the poster
> FACTS relates are unacceptable - period. Very few
> of those students will "catch up" to achieve a
> decent level of computational prowess and literacy
> so needed for them to prosper at virtually
> anything in today's knowledge based economy - and
> there is little changing that - none of us can be
> afford to be Luddites when it comes to the
> changing global economy. And like it or not,
> invocation of liberal guilt or not, redistricting
> upon redistricting or not, there will be limits as
> to how enthused most parents will be of sending
> their kids to schools with reasonable number of
> these challenging kids. We must fix the problems
> in these troubled schools - and if all of the
> rancor on this board forces some sort of call to
> progress, it is easily worth it.
>

Beyond altruism, it is in everyone's self interest to ensure that our local schools do not fail and do not fill our streets with an unemployed underclass. That kind of cauldron of instability is in evidence in Gaza, in Paris, and indeed in parts of the US and other places.


> And yes, I agree with the posters that I did set
> forth the most persuasive rationale for
> redistricting - which of course is why honesty and
> candor are in order - certainly photography and
> culinary arts and other such nonsense have ever
> entered the discussion. It still begs the
> question as to who should absorb the "costs".

If dealt with honestly, there would be many willing to absorb the costs. We are a rich and fortunate populace, and have demonstrated time after time a deep capacity to both care and to invest the time, energy, and treasure into doing the right thing. Unfortunately our elected leaders do not seem to trust the public enough to engage in an open and honest discussion. They believe themselves to be an "elite" class of philosopher kings who alone "know" what is right.

Shame on us for electing them, and giving them $$ to play with, with no strings attached.

c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIT grad,
>
> Do you realize Fiona is a middle school student?
> Seriously now, calm down.
>

Had no idea...how could I have. Actually I rather doubt it...all the blah blah blah sounds like an adult trying to imitate a kid.

But if true....Sorry Fiona dear...please go to bed and get ready for school. Put mommy on the blog...I've got something to tell her.

We of the Navy community applaud Mr. Moon and thank him for traveling the route starting at Navy elementary at 6:20 (our neighborhood will have to get the bus at 6:15) and he got to Oakton in thirty five minutes. I think his quote was that was a really bad drive. If Kathy had not been such a coward and a liar, she would have prevented our children from having to experience this commute every day. She beign the only school board member that did not advocate and vote for her constituants. I have to wonder if we do have options to pursue some sort of appeal. I would think there may be some proof of agregeous behavior on both liar one (Stu) and backstabbing liar 2(Kathy). The records of that exact meeting demonstrates two different sets of parameters for decisions.

Oh, and by the way Smith, Gibson, Eichner, Wilson, Strouss and Kory, want to thank you for subjecting our kids for the great experience of having them listen to the obviously powerful Oak Hill area children. They found it within their spoiled little hearts to chide our children on Friday with "Ha Ha you have to go to Oakton and we get to stay at Chantilly." Silly me not to have realized what scheming backstabbing liars you are when you were running for office. I would have put forth much more effort for your opponent. That will never happen again.



One more Navy Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Navy families have been given the shaft from Kathy
> Smith in her quest to help Stu-pid Gibson.
>
> Folks lets face it --- a 6 - 6 tie on the
> amendment to keep Navy at Chantilly and Kathy
> casts her vote against it.
>
> Thanks much to Liz, Tina, Brad, Dan, Mr. Raney and
> Mr. Moon (who by the way drove the bus route at
> 6:20 AM just to see for himself).
>
> In the very next motion, Mr. Gibson says that
> Madison Island should go to SL because of their
> proximity. (Tina did ask if he wanted to
> reconsider his previous vote).
>
> PROXIMITY WAS ONE OF THE SB'S KEY POINTS DURING
> THE TOWN HALL MEETINGS. They totally ignored
> their own requirements.
>
> Oakton is a fine school but it is not 2 miles from
> my family's home.
>
> And No not all of us voted for Kathy.

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I think everyone who has followed even for a
> few pages gets the picture that AP gets you more
> college credit than IB does but it doesn't answer
> my previous question.
>
> Does the same workload of classes and test scores
> between AP vs IB in any way enhance or limit a
> student's chances of being ACCEPTED into a given
> university? Forget the college credit issue, I'm
> talking just getting accepted into the school.

----------
In admissions GPA matters. SAT scores matter - and the SATs are designed by the same college Board who designs the AP exams. Sports and being a member of a particular population that the college seeks can also matter a great deal.

All other factors being equal, the standard blurb from competitive colleges is they look for students who do well while taking the most rigorous courses available.

At an IB school "the most rigorous courses available" is taking all the courses to be an IB Diploma Candidate. Those who are only taking one or a few random IB courses are by definition not taking the most rigorous path.

At an AP school a student who has taken and done well in a couple of AP courses even before senior year, and who is taking a couple more AP courses in senior year, is also on a rigorous path - even if, for example. that particular student is not taking five years of a foreign language.

Note also the students who take AP exams as sophomores or juniors can prove to admissions officers that they already can handle college freshman-level work. IB candidates are not allowed to take HL exams until they complete their two-year HL courses, so they cannot provide such proof.

Boundary session is on channel 21 again RIGHT NOW for anyone who missed it before.

APorIBMom Wrote:
> That's correct - students can take AP tests
> without taking AP classes.

--------------
They can but at least at South Lakes they rarely do. At South Lakes only 4 students took ANY AP exams in 04-05 and only 3 took any AP exams in 05-06.

reason_why Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because I dont think it is a good school for
> average students. The IB program is good only for
> handful of elitists. AP program is more balanced
> and provides better education and rewards for the
> students career. Rest of of the issues are only
> brought up by SLHS themselves. Take a drive
> through the Floris communities RD into SLHS. You
> will very few whites - mainly immigrants - so that
> race argument Stu Gibson and SLHS is using is all
> crap.
> And you wont these Floris students at SLHS even
> after this RD. Most will either pupil place or
> move. These are people who have migrated from all
> over the world, and seen and experienced
> characters like Stu Gibson many times before.
> These parents wont let Stu stand between their
> children and a good education. ( But I must admit
> I have not seen a politician such as Stu before -
> with such single minded focus to go after
> children. Usually children are off limits in
> political fights in most other areas of the
> world)
>
> Fiona Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ok can i just ask this why are you against
> having
> > your kids go to south lakes im not talking
> about
> > blah blah blah long route blah blah blah IB
>
> > ( I can understand thats a big deal
> > but besides that what else? )
> >
> > do you think its a bad school because of the
> kids
> > in it ? are you afraid they are violent, gang
> > members, drama queen + kings
> >
> >
> > I just want to know why


Why is the truth a blah blah balh. Are you like Stu Gibson (are you Stu Gibson?)--that you can hear the truth a thosand times and all you hear is blah blah blah? Why would anyone have anything against the SL kids--they're kids. Why can't it be about IB? Why?

Why are so many people convinced that there is something ugly about families that don't want to be redistricted? We don't want to go to South Lakes--but we don't want to go to any other school besides Oakton. It's not our entitlement--it's our expectation.

If you don't believe this, then you really don't want to know why.

sb despiser, there is something you can do now. Ask the board of supervisors to put a ballot question in the Nov elections for setting term limits on SB. That will ensure we do that get stuck with the same liars for ever. We will get new faces, and by the time they are corrupted by the system, their term will be over.

sb despiser Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We of the Navy community applaud Mr. Moon and
> thank him for traveling the route starting at Navy
> elementary at 6:20 (our neighborhood will have to
> get the bus at 6:15) and he got to Oakton in
> thirty five minutes. I think his quote was that
> was a really bad drive. If Kathy had not been
> such a coward and a liar, she would have prevented
> our children from having to experience this
> commute every day. She beign the only school
> board member that did not advocate and vote for
> her constituants. I have to wonder if we do have
> options to pursue some sort of appeal. I would
> think there may be some proof of agregeous
> behavior on both liar one (Stu) and backstabbing
> liar 2(Kathy). The records of that exact meeting
> demonstrates two different sets of parameters for
> decisions.
>
> Oh, and by the way Smith, Gibson, Eichner, Wilson,
> Strouss and Kory, want to thank you for
> subjecting our kids for the great experience of
> having them listen to the obviously powerful Oak
> Hill area children. They found it within their
> spoiled little hearts to chide our children on
> Friday with "Ha Ha you have to go to Oakton and we
> get to stay at Chantilly." Silly me not to have
> realized what scheming backstabbing liars you are
> when you were running for office. I would have
> put forth much more effort for your opponent.
> That will never happen again.
>
>
>
> One more Navy Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Navy families have been given the shaft from
> Kathy
> > Smith in her quest to help Stu-pid Gibson.
> >
> > Folks lets face it --- a 6 - 6 tie on the
> > amendment to keep Navy at Chantilly and Kathy
> > casts her vote against it.
> >
> > Thanks much to Liz, Tina, Brad, Dan, Mr. Raney
> and
> > Mr. Moon (who by the way drove the bus route at
> > 6:20 AM just to see for himself).
> >
> > In the very next motion, Mr. Gibson says that
> > Madison Island should go to SL because of their
> > proximity. (Tina did ask if he wanted to
> > reconsider his previous vote).
> >
> > PROXIMITY WAS ONE OF THE SB'S KEY POINTS DURING
> > THE TOWN HALL MEETINGS. They totally ignored
> > their own requirements.
> >
> > Oakton is a fine school but it is not 2 miles
> from
> > my family's home.
> >
> > And No not all of us voted for Kathy.

Any way you look at it, IB is just bad in all aspects when compared to AP. For US college bound students cant think of one reason why they should choose IB over AP. I can understand if someone wanted to go to Europe for college they would want to take IB. But then how many of ffx county parents want to send their kids to Europe for college


Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ok, I think everyone who has followed even for
> a
> > few pages gets the picture that AP gets you
> more
> > college credit than IB does but it doesn't
> answer
> > my previous question.
> >
> > Does the same workload of classes and test
> scores
> > between AP vs IB in any way enhance or limit a
> > student's chances of being ACCEPTED into a
> given
> > university? Forget the college credit issue,
> I'm
> > talking just getting accepted into the school.
>
> ----------
> In admissions GPA matters. SAT scores matter - and
> the SATs are designed by the same college Board
> who designs the AP exams. Sports and being a
> member of a particular population that the college
> seeks can also matter a great deal.
>
> All other factors being equal, the standard blurb
> from competitive colleges is they look for
> students who do well while taking the most
> rigorous courses available.
>
> At an IB school "the most rigorous courses
> available" is taking all the courses to be an IB
> Diploma Candidate. Those who are only taking one
> or a few random IB courses are by definition not
> taking the most rigorous path.
>
> At an AP school a student who has taken and done
> well in a couple of AP courses even before senior
> year, and who is taking a couple more AP courses
> in senior year, is also on a rigorous path - even
> if, for example. that particular student is not
> taking five years of a foreign language.
>
> Note also the students who take AP exams as
> sophomores or juniors can prove to admissions
> officers that they already can handle college
> freshman-level work. IB candidates are not allowed
> to take HL exams until they complete their
> two-year HL courses, so they cannot provide such
> proof.

Pls hear this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reason_why Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Because I dont think it is a good school for
> > average students. The IB program is good only
> for
> > handful of elitists. AP program is more
> balanced
> > and provides better education and rewards for
> the
> > students career. Rest of of the issues are only
> > brought up by SLHS themselves. Take a drive
> > through the Floris communities RD into SLHS.
> You
> > will very few whites - mainly immigrants - so
> that
> > race argument Stu Gibson and SLHS is using is
> all
> > crap.
> > And you wont these Floris students at SLHS even
> > after this RD. Most will either pupil place or
> > move. These are people who have migrated from
> all
> > over the world, and seen and experienced
> > characters like Stu Gibson many times before.
> > These parents wont let Stu stand between their
> > children and a good education. ( But I must
> admit
> > I have not seen a politician such as Stu before
> -
> > with such single minded focus to go after
> > children. Usually children are off limits in
> > political fights in most other areas of the
> > world)
> >
> > Fiona Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ok can i just ask this why are you against
> > having
> > > your kids go to south lakes im not talking
> > about
> > > blah blah blah long route blah blah blah IB
>
> >
> > > ( I can understand thats a big
> deal
> > > but besides that what else? )
> > >
> > > do you think its a bad school because of the
> > kids
> > > in it ? are you afraid they are violent,
> gang
> > > members, drama queen + kings
> > >
> > >
> > > I just want to know why
>
>
> Why is the truth a blah blah balh. Are you like
> Stu Gibson (are you Stu Gibson?)--that you can
> hear the truth a thosand times and all you hear is
> blah blah blah? Why would anyone have anything
> against the SL kids--they're kids. Why can't it
> be about IB? Why?
>
> Why are so many people convinced that there is
> something ugly about families that don't want to
> be redistricted? We don't want to go to South
> Lakes--but we don't want to go to any other school
> besides Oakton. It's not our entitlement--it's our
> expectation.
>
> If you don't believe this, then you really don't
> want to know why.

I think Fiona is some SL person just trying to be dumb to get a reaction. But it is cathartic to lash back at her/him anyway. Because when the pretend to be callous, they are not really pretending. They truly do not care. It is a numbers game...steal 600 kids, assume 200 pupil place out, of the remaining 400, assume 10% have the cojones for IB, that gives you 40 kids....10 kids per grade for IB. That is perhaps an extra session of TOK or an extra session of IB calc. Now they can offer a session in the morning and afternoon, with more schedule flexibility for electives. So, they scheme with Stu and create an uproar for 40 kids measley (10/grade). The 360 who go to SL but do not do IB....they are lost in the sauce...more bodies for more federal matching funds to buy nicer trinkets for the school...maybe more kids for the band or the after school clubs.

If all they wanted was to add 10 kids/year in IB, the SB could have done a better job at selling the program at Rachel Carson or other surrounding schools, and left everyone alone. There is no crowding at WF/Chantilly, the ideal school size of 2000 is BS.

SLPTA, do you not agree. Really, do a numerical analysis...how many extra IB kids would you expect to get out of the kids you put into the chain gang? How many sessions of TOK did you want to add. You are not missing any classes, and will gain no "missing" electives. NEVER has anyone articulated what is missing from a 1400 size school...just some unnamed "opportunities." Give a specific, and then do a rough statistical analysis to see if 600 kids will boil down to the numbers you need. You probably need 1000 more kids...maybe more. Where is the math you bunch of numbskulls.

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I think everyone who has followed even for a
> few pages gets the picture that AP gets you more
> college credit than IB does but it doesn't answer
> my previous question.
>
> Does the same workload of classes and test scores
> between AP vs IB in any way enhance or limit a
> student's chances of being ACCEPTED into a given
> university? Forget the college credit issue, I'm
> talking just getting accepted into the school.

That depends. Did the student get the full IB Diploma and hopes to major in international studies at Brown or the Sorbonne? Did the AP student complete AP calculus BC, Multvariable calculus, linear Algebra, AP Physics, AP computer science and is applying to Cornell Engineering School? For an AP student, it depends on the courses taken, for an IB student it depends on if they get the full diploma and you don't want to be an engineer, major in math, or hard science.

skeptic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Viewed from the perspective of distance - I
> simply
> > don't know why the SB hasn't taken drastic
> steps
> > to improve Dogwood, Terraset, and McNair and
> > schools like it. This is the real cause of the
> > problems - and while these are very challenging
> > populations, there are programs that have worked
> -
> > such as those championed by Abigail Thernstrom
> in
> > Massachusetts.
>
> Ok, so what has worked and how well?
>
> It's not like any reasonable and fair minded
> person wouldn't like to see poor families succeed
> in the classroom and thus end a legacy of poverty
> but those same people probably doubt even the
> greatest politicians, teachers, principals,
> administrators and bureaucrats can overcome the
> challenges a family, likely a single parent at
> that, have to face to survive when they are likely
> not well educated themselves and also likely to
> have only recently begun to learn english.
>
> Bottom line; if a parent or parents can't or won't
> take the steps to ensure their children are good
> students and citizens what good are the Abigail
> Thernstrom's of the world.

That is not quite true. Poor Black students in 10 districts in Virginia, including Richmond and Newport News, out perform Black students in Fairfax county, despite the fact that Black parents in this county are better educated and have higher family incomes than ALL 10 of those districts. FCPS spends more per pupil than ANY of these other districts, often twice as much. These are much poorer districts, with much poor students, yet they beat FCPS blacks in 3rd grade, 5th grade, and 8th grade. To what would you attribute those differences, if not the education that they are receiving?

hint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Run the Numbers and Quantum just made the argument
> for redistricting. Low income students who
> comprise a smaller percentage of the overall
> student population do better than those in schools
> where they make up a larger group.
>
> You cannot compare minority scores because you
> don't know the socio-economic status of the
> minority groups. Economic status is a better
> indicator.

True. That's why we need to question why blacks in very poor parts of the state, like the city of Richmond, and Newport News, out perform Blacks in FCPS. They also comprise a very high percentage of the students in the schools, they are the majority. They do better on SOLs than our Blacks who are not in the majority in any FCPS school.

IB diploma indicates a dedicated and well-rounded student to a college admissions office.

I also want to add that no one at South Lakes is making this about AP or IB. There is no great conspiracy to cater to IB diploma candidates. SLHS cares about ALL their students. It is everyone else who seems to be making this about AP/IB. (Among other things, some very valid things.)

AFMD,

please continue your research outside this forum. Try contacting Jay Mathews of the Washington Post, or Faye Brenner of FCPS Advance Programs, or Mr. Albright at Langston Hughes. Or better yet, call a few college admissions office for yourself. I can tell you have an open-mind, that is a great place to start.


Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ok, I think everyone who has followed even for
> a
> > few pages gets the picture that AP gets you
> more
> > college credit than IB does but it doesn't
> answer
> > my previous question.
> >
> > Does the same workload of classes and test
> scores
> > between AP vs IB in any way enhance or limit a
> > student's chances of being ACCEPTED into a
> given
> > university? Forget the college credit issue,
> I'm
> > talking just getting accepted into the school.
>
> That depends. Did the student get the full IB
> Diploma and hopes to major in international
> studies at Brown or the Sorbonne? Did the AP
> student complete AP calculus BC, Multvariable
> calculus, linear Algebra, AP Physics, AP computer
> science and is applying to Cornell Engineering
> School? For an AP student, it depends on the
> courses taken, for an IB student it depends on if
> they get the full diploma and you don't want to be
> an engineer, major in math, or hard science.

Questioner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Say, perhaps I have missed something in my online
> readings these last few months, and perhaps y'all
> can help me understand. Even though the vote is
> over, so many folks have their hackles up about AP
> vs IB, as we all know.
>
> My question (and it is not intended to be
> sarcastic at all): do ALL kids at Oakton, Madison,
> Chantilly and Westfields go into the AP program at
> their schools?
> If not, did the parents of the general ed kids get
> a chance to speak up or do they not care?
>
> The reason for my asking is that is seems that is
> the ONLY issue that came through for the entire
> boundary process. So, it seems to me that every
> kid gets an AP education at all of these schools
> and I just don't think that is possible.
>
> A little help? Thanks.

I can't speak for all those schools, but majority of students at Madison take some AP courses. I would imagine that is true at the other schools too since the vast majority of students in those schools are college bound.

On the subject of outperforming... I clearly remember Jane Strauss making a comment last thursday in regards to the number of graduating seniors at South Lakes last year having a 4.0 or greater GPA... something like 35 (I can't remember the exact number) She said that was more than any other high schools in this area, including Oakton and Langley. And South lakes had the highest percentage of students accepted to UVA.

Also, I remember seeing an article somewhere this year about South Lakes having the greatest improvement in some or another scores... SAT maybe. Really very sorry I didn't pay any more attention to that at the time. I can try to look it up tonight, but I've had enough. I'm off to bed.





Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hint Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Run the Numbers and Quantum just made the
> argument
> > for redistricting. Low income students who
> > comprise a smaller percentage of the overall
> > student population do better than those in
> schools
> > where they make up a larger group.
> >
> > You cannot compare minority scores because you
> > don't know the socio-economic status of the
> > minority groups. Economic status is a better
> > indicator.
>
> True. That's why we need to question why blacks
> in very poor parts of the state, like the city of
> Richmond, and Newport News, out perform Blacks in
> FCPS. They also comprise a very high percentage of
> the students in the schools, they are the
> majority. They do better on SOLs than our Blacks
> who are not in the majority in any FCPS school.

c'mon wrote:

"On the subject of outperforming... I clearly remember Jane Strauss making a comment last thursday in regards to the number of graduating seniors at South Lakes last year having a 4.0 or greater GPA... something like 35 (I can't remember the exact number) She said that was more than any other high schools in this area, including Oakton and Langley. And South lakes had the highest percentage of students accepted to UVA.

Also, I remember seeing an article somewhere this year about South Lakes having the greatest improvement in some or another scores... SAT maybe. Really very sorry I didn't pay any more attention to that at the time. I can try to look it up tonight, but I've had enough. I'm off to bed. "


If that was the case, then WHY the need to redistrict and disrupt these families? I am sorry, but your posts sound alot like SLverity's.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ok, I think everyone who has followed even for
> a
> > few pages gets the picture that AP gets you
> more
> > college credit than IB does but it doesn't
> answer
> > my previous question.
> >
> > Does the same workload of classes and test
> scores
> > between AP vs IB in any way enhance or limit a
> > student's chances of being ACCEPTED into a
> given
> > university? Forget the college credit issue,
> I'm
> > talking just getting accepted into the school.
>
> ----------
> In admissions GPA matters. SAT scores matter - and
> the SATs are designed by the same college Board
> who designs the AP exams. Sports and being a
> member of a particular population that the college
> seeks can also matter a great deal.
>
> All other factors being equal, the standard blurb
> from competitive colleges is they look for
> students who do well while taking the most
> rigorous courses available.
>
> At an IB school "the most rigorous courses
> available" is taking all the courses to be an IB
> Diploma Candidate. Those who are only taking one
> or a few random IB courses are by definition not
> taking the most rigorous path.
>
> At an AP school a student who has taken and done
> well in a couple of AP courses even before senior
> year, and who is taking a couple more AP courses
> in senior year, is also on a rigorous path - even
> if, for example. that particular student is not
> taking five years of a foreign language.
>
> Note also the students who take AP exams as
> sophomores or juniors can prove to admissions
> officers that they already can handle college
> freshman-level work. IB candidates are not allowed
> to take HL exams until they complete their
> two-year HL courses, so they cannot provide such
> proof.


Is it the courses or the exam scores that "prove to admissions officers they can handle freshman-level work." Just wondering what your definition of prooving that to the admissions officers is.

Regarding IB candidates not having exam score proof for HL course exams until senior year, at Stuart students take AP Government their sophomore year, so that provides some proof in addition to the IB courses on their transcript, so in terms of admissions they are going to be okay. I do know that college credits may not work out as well, but want to reiterate that admissions are solid for IB students, whether they are taking a couple of courses, or are taking the full load.

I understand South Lakes is adding one or two AP courses, and students could take those in a timely enough fashion to prove to admissions officers that they are capable.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> Is it the courses or the exam scores that "prove
> to admissions officers they can handle
> freshman-level work." Just wondering what your
> definition of prooving that to the admissions
> officers is.
>
> Regarding IB candidates not having exam score
> proof for HL course exams until senior year, at
> Stuart students take AP Government their sophomore
> year, so that provides some proof in addition to
> the IB courses on their transcript, so in terms of
> admissions they are going to be okay. I do know
> that college credits may not work out as well, but
> want to reiterate that admissions are solid for IB
> students, whether they are taking a couple of
> courses, or are taking the full load.
>
> I understand South Lakes is adding one or two AP
> courses, and students could take those in a timely
> enough fashion to prove to admissions officers
> that they are capable.

Please define and prove "that admissions are solid for IB students, whether they are taking a couple of courses." The FULL IB Diploma, sure - I have always agreed that the full IB Diploma is a noteworthy attainment for the 5-7% of students in IB schools who earn it. But the question is whether full IB Diploma candidates should attend some sort of Academy and if students who "are taking a couple of courses" would be better off in an AP school.

In FCPS anyone can sign up for an accelerated high school course - merely taking it does not prove anything to admissions officers, with the exception that most colleges DO expect to see seniors taking AP and/or IB courses if they are available.

AP students can and very often do have AP scores in their resumes when they apply to college. e.g., students who earn 5s in AP Calculus as juniors should certainly ensure that is noted in their applications. That can also be a factor in selecting colleges. Look up the colleges of your choice and see what they say in regard to credit and placement.

I have advocated several times on this forum that South Lakes offer AP World Civ and/or AP Government, among others. Both are "core" courses that satisfy SOL requirements. In this county AP Wold Civ is taken by many tenth graders. Personally, I think Government is a course better suited to 17 and 18 year olds who are about to pay taxes, vote, sign up for selective service, get married, set off of their own, and otherwise assume the full rights and responsibilities of adulthood.

The only AP course I have heard of that is being offered next year at SLHS is Human Geography - NOT a core course and NOT as likely to earn college credit. I doubt that particular course will prove much of anything to anyone. WHY is that the AP course being offered at SLHS?

One more Navy Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Navy families have been given the shaft from Kathy
> Smith in her quest to help Stu-pid Gibson.
>
> Folks lets face it --- a 6 - 6 tie on the
> amendment to keep Navy at Chantilly and Kathy
> casts her vote against it.
>
> Thanks much to Liz, Tina, Brad, Dan, Mr. Raney and
> Mr. Moon (who by the way drove the bus route at
> 6:20 AM just to see for himself).
>
> In the very next motion, Mr. Gibson says that
> Madison Island should go to SL because of their
> proximity. (Tina did ask if he wanted to
> reconsider his previous vote).
>
> PROXIMITY WAS ONE OF THE SB'S KEY POINTS DURING
> THE TOWN HALL MEETINGS. They totally ignored
> their own requirements.
>
> Oakton is a fine school but it is not 2 miles from
> my family's home.
>
> And No not all of us voted for Kathy.


Well, be thankful that your grab-bag prize wasn't riding the bus 7 miles to South Lakes instead, like some of us are now forced to do.

c'mon Wrote:
> IB diploma indicates a dedicated and well-rounded
> student to a college admissions office.
>
-----------
The IBO states IB is a liberal arts programme. An IB Diploma Grad is perhaps weak in math and science, but yes, IB Diploma Candidates are attractive to many if not most Liberal Arts colleges.

However, what about the other 95% of students who do not earn the full IB Diploma? Why not allow them a full range of AP courses, INCLUDING AP science, BC Calculus, and foreign language, none of which are offered even at huge Robinson, apparently the largest IB school in the world?

FR Wrote:

"The only AP course I have heard of that is being offered next year at SLHS is Human Geography - NOT a core course and NOT as likely to earn college credit. I doubt that particular course will prove much of anything to anyone. WHY is that the AP course being offered at SLHS?"

Yes, I am still wondering about that why SL chose AP Human Geography. I researched the course under the UVA for example and it indicated UVA offered no credit for AP Human Geography. TM's earlier post indicated that SL offered it, but he was not sure if enough people signed up for it. Maybe it was because they knew there would be no credit given for the course from most universities or colleges so why bother signing up for it?

C'mon,

I think everyone should go straight to the college web sites. For accurate and complete information from FCPS about the facts, a FOIA might help. Jay Mathews is not a credible source of information, although his Washington Post columns on education issues are entertaining. The other Post reporters who cover education tend to be more accurate and impartial.

c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD,
>
> please continue your research outside this forum.
> Try contacting Jay Mathews of the Washington Post,
> or Faye Brenner of FCPS Advance Programs, or Mr.
> Albright at Langston Hughes. Or better yet, call
> a few college admissions office for yourself. I
> can tell you have an open-mind, that is a great
> place to start.

c'mon Wrote:
> .. no one at South Lakes is
> making this about AP or IB. There is no great
> conspiracy to cater to IB diploma candidates. SLHS
> cares about ALL their students. It is everyone
> else who seems to be making this about AP/IB.

----------
That is a big part of the problem - SLHS just seems to dismiss something that is an integral part of high school for thousands and thousands of students. We, "everyone else," are not willing to surrender this element of our children's education. Here again are the 05-06 numbers of students taking at least 1 AP Exam in the northern and western high schools:
CHANTILLY 786
HERNDON 737
LANGLEY 668
MADISON 622
MARSHALL (IB) 2
MCLEAN 678
OAKTON 793
SOUTH LAKES (IB) 3
WESTFIELD 938

APorIBMom Wrote:
> ... I think everyone should go straight to the college
> web sites. ...
---------
I agree. Here is a starting list. I got this list from the FairfaxCAPS website so try there if a link does not work.

" University of Virginia
http://records.ureg.virginia.edu/content.php?catoid=11&navoid=176&bc=1#the_inte_bacca

Virginia Tech
http://www.registrar.vt.edu/registration/tests_for_credit.php

College of William & Mary
http://www.wm.edu/admission/?id=3750

Randolph Macon
http://www.rmc.edu/Admissions/freshman/preparations.aspx

Univ of Mary Washington
http://www.umw.edu/admissions/undergraduate/ib_credit_information.php

Christopher Newport Univ.
http://admissions.cnu.edu/undergraduateAdmissions/applyAsAFreshman/freshmanFAQs/creditTransferGuidelines.cfm#International_Baccalaureate

Johns Hopkins University:
http://www.jhu.edu/admis/apply/apib.html

Penn State
http://www.psu.edu/admissions/steps/understanding/ib.htm

North Carolina
http://www.admissions.unc.edu/academics/placement.htm

Delaware
http://admissions.udel.edu/apply/apibcredit.shtml

South Carolina
http://www.sc.edu/bulletin/Union/admissions.html

Clemson Univ.
http://www.clemson.edu/prospectivestudents/transfer/ibcredit.html

Rutgers
http://sebs.rutgers.edu/transfer/#AP

Georgia
http://www.uga.edu/honors/prospective/ap.html "

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mon Wrote:
> > .. no one at South Lakes is
> > making this about AP or IB. There is no great
> > conspiracy to cater to IB diploma candidates.
> SLHS
> > cares about ALL their students. It is everyone
> > else who seems to be making this about AP/IB.
>
> ----------
> That is a big part of the problem - SLHS just
> seems to dismiss something that is an integral
> part of high school for thousands and thousands of
> students. We, "everyone else," are not willing to
> surrender this element of our children's
> education. Here again are the 05-06 numbers of
> students taking at least 1 AP Exam in the northern
> and western high schools:
> CHANTILLY 786
> HERNDON 737
> LANGLEY 668
> MADISON 622
> MARSHALL (IB) 2
> MCLEAN 678
> OAKTON 793
> SOUTH LAKES (IB) 3
> WESTFIELD 938


Just a clarification question, so if I am reading this correctly, there are 938 students taking at least one AP class out of a population of roughly 3000, and Chantilly 737 out of a population base of roughly 3000 as well, so between about 25 and 30% or so of the base, right?

And there are almost as many taking at least one AP course at Herndon, as in Chantilly, even though the school poulation is a lot smaller, right?

Is this a correct interpretation of these numbers?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Please define and prove "that admissions are solid
> for IB students, whether they are taking a couple
> of courses." The FULL IB Diploma, sure - I have
> always agreed that the full IB Diploma is a
> noteworthy attainment for the 5-7% of students in
> IB schools who earn it.

I have tried to find the following at US News, but have been unable to do so, so forgive the lack of a link instead of typing it all out. It is from 2004, but I believe is still relevant.

University or college Total Population
Acceptance rate All IB students
Acceptance rate Diploma Candidate
Acceptance rate
University of Florida 58.0% 88.4% 88.9%


VA Tech 66% 67.9% 80.2%
JMU 58% 65.1% 76.9%
UVA 39% 55.9% 61.3%
Univ of CA Los Angeles 24% 41.4% 48.5%
Univ of CA San Diego 41% 60.5% 65.6%
Univ of CA Berkeley 24% 45.4% 50.6%
Florida State 70% 92.9% 94.6%
GMU 66% 88.4% 97.5%
University of CA Irving 56% 85.5% 89.9%
College of William and Mary 35% 49.3% 53.9%
Harvard 11% 12.5% 12.1%
Duke 25% 36.2% 39.4%
Stanford 13% 16.8% 17.6%
NYU 33% 47% 52.8%
Univ. of Central Florida 62% 95.7% 95.9%
Univ of North Carolina Chapel Hill 13% 14.3% 15.1%
Univ. of Cal Santa Barbara 51% 69.2% 74.8%
University of Southern Cal 30% 69% 76.7%

Well, the lines didn't work out, but first number is total acceptnace rate, second is all IB students and 3rd is IB diploma candidates.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > Please define and prove "that admissions are
> solid
> > for IB students, whether they are taking a
> couple
> > of courses." The FULL IB Diploma, sure - I have
> > always agreed that the full IB Diploma is a
> > noteworthy attainment for the 5-7% of students
> in
> > IB schools who earn it.
>
> I have tried to find the following at US News, but
> have been unable to do so, so forgive the lack of
> a link instead of typing it all out. It is from
> 2004, but I believe is still relevant.
>
> University or college Total Population
> Acceptance rate All IB students
> Acceptance rate Diploma Candidate
> Acceptance rate
> University of Florida 58.0% 88.4% 88.9%
>
>
> VA Tech 66% 67.9% 80.2%
> JMU 58% 65.1% 76.9%
> UVA 39% 55.9% 61.3%
> Univ of CA Los Angeles 24% 41.4% 48.5%
> Univ of CA San Diego 41% 60.5% 65.6%
> Univ of CA Berkeley 24% 45.4% 50.6%
> Florida State 70% 92.9% 94.6%
> GMU 66% 88.4% 97.5%
> University of CA Irving 56% 85.5% 89.9%
> College of William and Mary 35% 49.3% 53.9%
> Harvard 11% 12.5% 12.1%
> Duke 25% 36.2% 39.4%
> Stanford 13% 16.8% 17.6%
> NYU 33% 47% 52.8%
> Univ. of Central Florida 62% 95.7% 95.9%
> Univ of North Carolina Chapel
> Hill 13% 14.3% 15.1%
> Univ. of Cal Santa Barbara 51% 69.2% 74.8%
> University of Southern Cal 30% 69% 76.7%
>
> Well, the lines didn't work out, but first number
> is total acceptnace rate, second is all IB
> students and 3rd is IB diploma candidates.

Can you add "all AP student" numbers?

AP* Wrote:
> > That is a big part of the problem - SLHS just
> > seems to dismiss something that is an integral
> > part of high school for thousands and thousands
> of
> > students. We, "everyone else," are not willing
> to
> > surrender this element of our children's
> > education. Here again are the 05-06 numbers of
> > students taking at least 1 AP Exam in the
> northern
> > and western high schools:
> > CHANTILLY 786
> > HERNDON 737
> > LANGLEY 668
> > MADISON 622
> > MARSHALL (IB) 2
> > MCLEAN 678
> > OAKTON 793
> > SOUTH LAKES (IB) 3
> > WESTFIELD 938
>
>
> Just a clarification question, so if I am reading
> this correctly, there are 938 students taking at
> least one AP class out of a population of roughly
> 3000, and Chantilly 737 out of a population base
> of roughly 3000 as well, so between about 25 and
> 30% or so of the base, right?
>
> And there are almost as many taking at least one
> AP course at Herndon, as in Chantilly, even though
> the school poulation is a lot smaller, right?
>
> Is this a correct interpretation of these numbers?

From how the data are presented on the state website this is a simple tally of students in a high school who take at least one AP exam. Like the Jay Mathews Index, there is no indication of which exams or how well they score.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Can you add "all AP student" numbers?

No, I am typing/copying from a print out I had of an older US News article (2004) on IB. It didn't include AP or I would have done so. It clearly shows that even some IB courses assist with admissions, which is what the issue at hand was. Pretty much everyone knows that a few AP courses assist with admissions, and I would imagine the jump in acceptance rate would be similar to IB. I was copying the information to reassure those concerned that you don't have to go for the full diploma to boost your admission chances if you are in an IB school.

I think there are 2 big injustices that stand out from the Thursday night meetings.

1) They forced students (who had no formal warning) into an IB only school. They were not given any middle school training for upcoming IB curiculum. Many of them have not even taken a foreign language in 8th grade. No matter what SL folks are saying, "That AP/IB argument is used because folks don't want to come to SL", this is a great injustice.

Students will be able to pupil place out but, they will have at least 100 + such applications in SL now, so who knows what is going to happen. Dr. Dale is on record saying, that students who want pupil placed will be taken care of. Lets see how truthful Dr. Dale is.

2) Navy folks are really affected. They can't even pupil place back to Chantilly because both Oakton and Chantilly are AP schools. I think Kathy Smith brought this on to herself because she decided to support Stu Gibson from day one. Now she could not say no to Navy going to Oakton because Chantilly had to be reduced. I hope this is the end of her political career at SB.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP* Wrote:
> > > That is a big part of the problem - SLHS just
> > > seems to dismiss something that is an
> integral
> > > part of high school for thousands and
> thousands
> > of
> > > students. We, "everyone else," are not
> willing
> > to
> > > surrender this element of our children's
> > > education. Here again are the 05-06 numbers
> of
> > > students taking at least 1 AP Exam in the
> > northern
> > > and western high schools:
> > > CHANTILLY 786
> > > HERNDON 737
> > > LANGLEY 668
> > > MADISON 622
> > > MARSHALL (IB) 2
> > > MCLEAN 678
> > > OAKTON 793
> > > SOUTH LAKES (IB) 3
> > > WESTFIELD 938
> >
> >
> > Just a clarification question, so if I am
> reading
> > this correctly, there are 938 students taking
> at
> > least one AP class out of a population of
> roughly
> > 3000, and Chantilly 737 out of a population
> base
> > of roughly 3000 as well, so between about 25
> and
> > 30% or so of the base, right?
> >
> > And there are almost as many taking at least
> one
> > AP course at Herndon, as in Chantilly, even
> though
> > the school poulation is a lot smaller, right?
> >
> > Is this a correct interpretation of these
> numbers?
>
> From how the data are presented on the state
> website this is a simple tally of students in a
> high school who take at least one AP exam. Like
> the Jay Mathews Index, there is no indication of
> which exams or how well they score.

Thank you, I understood that this is not an indicator of level of performence, I was just trying to get to what percentages of kids actually take some AP curriculum, which I guess by default, leaves the difference as kids not taking these more advanced courses.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> ... I am typing/copying from a print out I had of
> an older US News article (2004) on IB. It didn't
> include AP or I would have done so. ...

Why is it so difficult find these data? FCPS computers should be able to provide them easily. Does anyone have access to the overall database who can give us "average" GPA, SAT, and number of AP or IB courses taken by FCPS students accepted in the last couple of years for FCPS high schools at a dozen or so colleges?

We need FCPS data, not nation-wide data, because so very many of our students take these exams that none of our schools are "average."

[Last I saw a chart, William and Mary showed full IB Diploma graduates had the highest admission rates, then AP students of all types, then IB students without the IB Diploma, then students with no advanced courses.]

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think there are 2 big injustices that stand out
> from the Thursday night meetings.
>
> 1) They forced students (who had no formal
> warning) into an IB only school. They were not
> given any middle school training for upcoming IB
> curiculum. Many of them have not even taken a
> foreign language in 8th grade. No matter what SL
> folks are saying, "That AP/IB argument is used
> because folks don't want to come to SL", this is
> a great injustice.
>
> Students will be able to pupil place out but, they
> will have at least 100 + such applications in SL
> now, so who knows what is going to happen. Dr.
> Dale is on record saying, that students who want
> pupil placed will be taken care of. Lets see how
> truthful Dr. Dale is.
>
> 2) Navy folks are really affected. They can't
> even pupil place back to Chantilly because both
> Oakton and Chantilly are AP schools. I think
> Kathy Smith brought this on to herself because she
> decided to support Stu Gibson from day one. Now
> she could not say no to Navy going to Oakton
> because Chantilly had to be reduced. I hope this
> is the end of her political career at SB.

Yes it is terrible what Stu and Kathy did to those affected by the RD. I can't help but feel both the fcps staff and the sb knew who would be going from several years ago. Putting this charade through town meetings producing mangled scenarios, public hearings and the final boundary hearing was just all an act. Some people might argue saying it wasn't an act. Such great injustice.

MIT grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I think Fiona is some SL person just trying to be
> dumb to get a reaction....


>
...Where is the math you bunch of
> numbskulls.

A true MIT grad would not make assumptions or hurl gratuitous insults.

skeptic - it is as if you are wilfully being intransigent to embrace fatalism. Yes, there are social problems in the affected communities - and the schools would be far better off to realize that they cannot fix most of them - thank you out of wedlock births and great society programs that discourage accountability - but what the schools can do is give an intense education with a keen focus on the fundamentals. And this needs to be done in the elementary grades - struggling kids with very few exceptions either get it done early on (3rd grade is a huge year) or they are in trouble for some time to come. This is why I have a problem with Herrstein, Murray, et al and others who focus on IQ differences - the public schools must take the kids as they come - and frankly, a rising tide lifts all boats - if there is the political will to raise the tide.

And Neen is right - it makes no sense why the challenging schools in Reston perform worse than the schools in Richmond or Norfolk. Virtually none of the serious negatives that one sees in those cities is present in Reston - and yet scores really suffer. In response, let's make clear that this has not come about through lack of effort - there are good teachers in these schools that are making saintly efforts - but the whole notion of teaching what makes kids feel good as opposed to teaching hardened skills that will hardwire them for future challenges has just gone too far. And teaching hardwired skills is tough - because that means social promotion of all kinds stops - and that kind of activity receives all sorts of complaints about discrimination - but it is so necessary to do.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:

>
> That depends. Did the student get the full IB
> Diploma and hopes to major in international
> studies at Brown or the Sorbonne? Did the AP
> student complete AP calculus BC, Multvariable
> calculus, linear Algebra, AP Physics, AP computer
> science and is applying to Cornell Engineering
> School? For an AP student, it depends on the
> courses taken, for an IB student it depends on if
> they get the full diploma and you don't want to be
> an engineer, major in math, or hard science.


SL Class of 2006 had a student accepted as an Echols Scholar at UVa with NO IB DIPLOMA.

Forum Reader is stuck in the past and Neen is just a bored and angry busybody.

AP* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > AP* Wrote:
> > > > That is a big part of the problem - SLHS
> just
> > > > seems to dismiss something that is an
> > integral
> > > > part of high school for thousands and
> > thousands
> > > of
> > > > students. We, "everyone else," are not
> > willing
> > > to
> > > > surrender this element of our children's
> > > > education. Here again are the 05-06 numbers
> > of
> > > > students taking at least 1 AP Exam in the
> > > northern
> > > > and western high schools:
> > > > CHANTILLY 786
> > > > HERNDON 737
> > > > LANGLEY 668
> > > > MADISON 622
> > > > MARSHALL (IB) 2
> > > > MCLEAN 678
> > > > OAKTON 793
> > > > SOUTH LAKES (IB) 3
> > > > WESTFIELD 938
> > >
> > >
> > > Just a clarification question, so if I am
> > reading
> > > this correctly, there are 938 students taking
> > at
> > > least one AP class out of a population of
> > roughly
> > > 3000, and Chantilly 737 out of a population
> > base
> > > of roughly 3000 as well, so between about 25
> > and
> > > 30% or so of the base, right?
> > >
> > > And there are almost as many taking at least
> > one
> > > AP course at Herndon, as in Chantilly, even
> > though
> > > the school poulation is a lot smaller, right?
> > >
> > > Is this a correct interpretation of these
> > numbers?
> >
> > From how the data are presented on the state
> > website this is a simple tally of students in a
> > high school who take at least one AP exam. Like
> > the Jay Mathews Index, there is no indication
> of
> > which exams or how well they score.
>
> Thank you, I understood that this is not an
> indicator of level of performence, I was just
> trying to get to what percentages of kids actually
> take some AP curriculum, which I guess by default,
> leaves the difference as kids not taking these
> more advanced courses.

I don't think that's the right way to use the data. You're dividing the number of kids who took at least one AP test in a specific year by the total number of kids in the school. That includes freshmen, who almost never are in any AP classes, and sophomores, who have very few AP classes to choose from (at Madison, unless the student is way ahead in math, the only AP class option for a sophomore is AP World History). Many of those freshmen and sophomores will take some AP classes later on in high school. You'd get a better (but still wrong) estimate of what percent of kids take some AP curriculum by dividing the number of test takers by the number of juniors and seniors at each school.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> And Neen is right - it makes no sense why the
> challenging schools in Reston perform worse than
> the schools in Richmond or Norfolk. Virtually
> none of the serious negatives that one sees in
> those cities is present in Reston - and yet scores
> really suffer. In response, let's make clear that
> this has not come about through lack of effort -
> there are good teachers in these schools that are
> making saintly efforts - but the whole notion of
> teaching what makes kids feel good as opposed to
> teaching hardened skills that will hardwire them
> for future challenges has just gone too far. And
> teaching hardwired skills is tough - because that
> means social promotion of all kinds stops - and
> that kind of activity receives all sorts of
> complaints about discrimination - but it is so
> necessary to do.

This has been discussed here before many times. The Richmond schools are much more homogeneous, so it is easier to apply the same standards of teaching in every classroom to every student. Each Reston school has a mix of students from many races, many different socio-economic levels, and many different levels of knowledge based on their different home experiences. The teachers in Reston have to teach to each and every level in the classroom, with the exception of GT students who are separated after second grade. Which classroom do you think a teacher will find easier to teach?

for our kids Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boundary session is on channel 21 again RIGHT NOW
> for anyone who missed it before.

Since I regard cable companies the same as the FX. county school board, I do not have access to the public access stations. Is there a copy or internet source where I might be able to view this fateful meeting?

cougar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> for our kids Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Boundary session is on channel 21 again RIGHT
> NOW
> > for anyone who missed it before.
>
> Since I regard cable companies the same as the FX.
> county school board, I do not have access to the
> public access stations. Is there a copy or
> internet source where I might be able to view this
> fateful meeting?
I wouldn't waste my time. The entire process was a charade from the beginning. The SB knew, (as did SLHS) exactly what they were going to do before they ever got the public "involved".

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > ... I am typing/copying from a print out I had
> of
> > an older US News article (2004) on IB. It
> didn't
> > include AP or I would have done so. ...
>
> Why is it so difficult find these data? FCPS
> computers should be able to provide them easily.
> Does anyone have access to the overall database
> who can give us "average" GPA, SAT, and number of
> AP or IB courses taken by FCPS students accepted
> in the last couple of years for FCPS high schools
> at a dozen or so colleges?
>
> We need FCPS data, not nation-wide data, because
> so very many of our students take these exams that
> none of our schools are "average."


I seriously doubt they keep these stats, particularly when you look at the fact that some students apply to a huge number of schools increasing the data FCPS would need to go through. Each school might have relevant data, but truly who would spend the time, and money to compile the transcript data and all of the schools students apply to, and then weed through which universities offered them admission? Students would have to share that fact, and some might be reluctant because it would also, be default, show which schools rejected them. It just seems like a huge waste of someone's time, and when we are looking at budget issues, I doubt they would hire someone just for that. In general each school posts via the newspaper or some other method, which schools their seniors are going to, but nowhere do the list all the schools students were accepted to, much less all the pertinent data on their transcripts.

I provided what you asked for, do students who take just a few IB classes get an admission advantage was your question, and the answer is, Yes, they do. If you fear that that doesn't resonate well with FCPS then I don't know what to tell you. I could also point out that by saying none of FCPS schools are average, where I assume you mean they are all above average compared to the nation, then SL's would also be above average in your view?
>
>

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cougar Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > for our kids Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Boundary session is on channel 21 again RIGHT
> > NOW
> > > for anyone who missed it before.
> >
> > Since I regard cable companies the same as the
> FX.
> > county school board, I do not have access to
> the
> > public access stations. Is there a copy or
> > internet source where I might be able to view
> this
> > fateful meeting?
> I wouldn't waste my time. The entire process was
> a charade from the beginning. The SB knew, (as did
> SLHS) exactly what they were going to do before
> they ever got the public "involved".

If the SL PTSA has so much power, why didn't they demand redistricting years ago? The school has been underenrolled since the mid 1990's, even when it was AP. Sheesh!

MIT GRAD, Too Wrote:
> If the SL PTSA has so much power, why didn't they
> demand redistricting years ago? The school has
> been underenrolled since the mid 1990's, even when
> it was AP. Sheesh!

Can't answer that question. All I know is that the SLPTA had first-hand knowledge of the redistricting scenario, which was exactly like the "Option 1" they ultimately approved, BEFORE it was released to the general populace.

22180/w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP* Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > AP* Wrote:
> > > > > That is a big part of the problem - SLHS
> > just
> > > > > seems to dismiss something that is an
> > > integral
> > > > > part of high school for thousands and
> > > thousands
> > > > of
> > > > > students. We, "everyone else," are not
> > > willing
> > > > to
> > > > > surrender this element of our children's
> > > > > education. Here again are the 05-06
> numbers
> > > of
> > > > > students taking at least 1 AP Exam in the
> > > > northern
> > > > > and western high schools:
> > > > > CHANTILLY 786
> > > > > HERNDON 737
> > > > > LANGLEY 668
> > > > > MADISON 622
> > > > > MARSHALL (IB) 2
> > > > > MCLEAN 678
> > > > > OAKTON 793
> > > > > SOUTH LAKES (IB) 3
> > > > > WESTFIELD 938
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just a clarification question, so if I am
> > > reading
> > > > this correctly, there are 938 students
> taking
> > > at
> > > > least one AP class out of a population of
> > > roughly
> > > > 3000, and Chantilly 737 out of a population
> > > base
> > > > of roughly 3000 as well, so between about
> 25
> > > and
> > > > 30% or so of the base, right?
> > > >
> > > > And there are almost as many taking at
> least
> > > one
> > > > AP course at Herndon, as in Chantilly, even
> > > though
> > > > the school poulation is a lot smaller,
> right?
> > > >
> > > > Is this a correct interpretation of these
> > > numbers?
> > >
> > > From how the data are presented on the state
> > > website this is a simple tally of students in
> a
> > > high school who take at least one AP exam.
> Like
> > > the Jay Mathews Index, there is no indication
> > of
> > > which exams or how well they score.
> >
> > Thank you, I understood that this is not an
> > indicator of level of performence, I was just
> > trying to get to what percentages of kids
> actually
> > take some AP curriculum, which I guess by
> default,
> > leaves the difference as kids not taking these
> > more advanced courses.
>
> I don't think that's the right way to use the
> data. You're dividing the number of kids who took
> at least one AP test in a specific year by the
> total number of kids in the school. That includes
> freshmen, who almost never are in any AP classes,
> and sophomores, who have very few AP classes to
> choose from (at Madison, unless the student is way
> ahead in math, the only AP class option for a
> sophomore is AP World History). Many of those
> freshmen and sophomores will take some AP classes
> later on in high school. You'd get a better (but
> still wrong) estimate of what percent of kids take
> some AP curriculum by dividing the number of test
> takers by the number of juniors and seniors at
> each school.

This appears to be a reasonble approach, so using your methodologyusing rough numbers, and assuming roughly equal distribution among the grades, Westfields would seem to have roughly 60% of the jrs/srs taking an AP class or more and Chantilly roughly 50% right, rough-rough?

So, if this is true, then of those communities prior to RD assigned to Chantilly or Westfields, this would suggest that if AP was the main objection, then somewhere between 50-60% of those affected could apply for pupil placement (assuming that the makeup of these communities is similar in profile to the Chantilly/Westfield populations on average).

That would leve between 40-50% percent of the communities either accepting to go to SL with no objection, or objecting for another reason other than the AP/IB debate, right?

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIT GRAD, Too Wrote:
> > If the SL PTSA has so much power, why didn't
> they
> > demand redistricting years ago? The school has
> > been underenrolled since the mid 1990's, even
> when
> > it was AP. Sheesh!
>
> Can't answer that question. All I know is that
> the SLPTA had first-hand knowledge of the
> redistricting scenario, which was exactly like the
> "Option 1" they ultimately approved, BEFORE it was
> released to the general populace.

Perhaps they just used their sippy-cup map to draw the circle, and realizing that though just as close, bringing in Crossfield would leave Fox Mill as an island; so they chose the most logical route. More than one group could have come up with this scenario. Actually, Franklin Farm's advocacy group developed the exact same scenario that SL did. It's not that hard to imagine. If both of those groups could do it, it is not hard to take the leap that SB staff did the same.

I would like to point out that there is a big range of ability in the GT classes. A number of children struggle with math, while others pretty much snooze through while they wait for Algebra to happen in 7th grade.

As for who is easier to teach, you should survey the teachers. I should think a GT class of 30 fourth graders is a bit harder to teach than a regular class of 24 fourth graders, but that's just me.





MIT GRAD, Too Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> This has been discussed here before many times.
> The Richmond schools are much more homogeneous, so
> it is easier to apply the same standards of
> teaching in every classroom to every student.
> Each Reston school has a mix of students from many
> races, many different socio-economic levels, and
> many different levels of knowledge based on their
> different home experiences. The teachers in
> Reston have to teach to each and every level in
> the classroom, with the exception of GT students
> who are separated after second grade. Which
> classroom do you think a teacher will find easier
> to teach?

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems like the online edition of the post article
> says,
>
> Class was 900 pound gorilla in the room.
>
> But my printed edition says
>
> Race was 900 pound gorilla in the room.
>
> Change from Race to Class. hmm. Interesting !!
>
> Stu saying Floris and FM parents are racist.


Ms. Chandler misquoted Stu Gibson. Too late to correct the printed edition. Call the Post if you don't believe me.