Forum Reader, are you in a position to even be asked by Bruce Butler to come in for an interview? A friend of yours told me that you are in the Woodson pyramid, so I don't understand why you would be inconvenienced.

Neen, will you ever quit? Not satisfied to counsel parents to pupil place, You now try to ascribe ulterior motives to Bruce Butler's good faith efforts. I wonder at your motivations.

Point of clarification, Neen: McNair is not in Reston. I also wonder why you never criticize Herndon (Dranesville District) because they have several schools that did not make AYP, including Herndon Middle, and one that is Title I. Oh, I forgot, they are not in Stu's district and are thus above criticism. Your critiques are only reserved for Reston or anything related to Stu. In the words of Bugs Bunny, what a maroon!!

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's the harm? Wrote:
> > Maybe it is inconvenient, maybe not. Don't
> know.
> >
> > ... why not invest another few minutes of time,
> on top of
> > the hours that many of us have already spent on
> > this issue so far. What's the harm?
> >
> Yes, it is inconvenient for a lot of us. Why waste
> his time and ours? Why make parents take time off
> work for this?
>
> Don't forget the intimidation aspect. There ARE
> parents who NEVER want to talk to a principal!


For as much time that has been spent just on this board alone, not to mention, the various meetigns, public hearings and not to mention due dilleigence that most people seem to have done with respect to this, I am a bit surprised to read your comment

Meaning what - and I am being sincere -

I am surprised because many of the postings by those convinced that AP is the better choice for their kids indicated a lot of research and thought - so if truly it is about making the best choice, why not hear of what could possibly be additional useful information, or at a minimum validation that your current choice is the right one. Most of those postings have indicated that education is so very important, and investing time in interpreting the information is not a waste of time.

As for the intimidation aspect, for those against AP and vocal, I find it hard to believe that you would be easily indimated, and in particular by a principal that most have agreed is fair, and respectful. If nothing else, I would think that those of you that have made that choice and feel it is the right choice, might want to use him, as a reasonable person, and not the big bad SB, as a tool or conduit to spread your message out to benefit potentially yourselves and/or others in the FCPS community

c'mom Wrote:
> Because there are 700-800 empty seats in the
> school. That's one THIRD of our school. Factor
> in the high percentage of ESOL and the 300 or so
> students in the MMR Center, we are left with
> something like 900 general ed kids. That makes an
> already difficult situation even harder.

Your arguments were long ago discarded.

1. ESOL kids can do quite well in the IB programme, which was designed for an international student base.

2. All FCPS high schools have some sort of Special Ed population.

3. As of 30 Sep 07 South Lakes was 69% full, same as Mt Vernon, and Falls Church was less than 66% full. They also border on overcrowded schools. What isn't anyone propose they be redistricted?

4. South Lakes has significantly fewer pupils per staff member.

I'd ask if you had any more points you wish to discuss, but I suspect it would be a waste of time and that you would discard logical rebuttals just as the School Board did.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIT Grad Wrote:
> > .. I feel great
> > putting up rationale that the pro-RD weenies
> > cannot refute with a decent counter. ...
> >
> > And just who are you...you must have had 30 IDs
> by
> > now. In fact, all of my ripostes have probably
> > been in response to your chameleon like name
> > changes. You can change you name, but you are
> > just as unconvincing.
> >
> > ... What was the goal of the SLPTA with
> > this exercise?
>
> ---------
> I am confused. Since we have had a bit of a minor
> argument today are you claiming that I am pro-RD?
>
>

Unless I am mistaken, MIT Grad's comments were directed at Kiva, not Forum Reader.

another observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can someone fill me in - did I correctly hear
> that
> > Tina Hone compared her vote against RD to
> having
> > the courage to oppose torture?
> >
> >
> > quantum Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > skeptic - it is as if you are wilfully being
> > > intransigent to embrace fatalism. Yes, there
> > are
> > > social problems in the affected communities -
> > and
> > > the schools would be far better off to
> realize
> > > that they cannot fix most of them - thank you
> > out
> > > of wedlock births and great society programs
> > that
> > > discourage accountability - but what the
> > schools
> > > can do is give an intense education with a
> keen
> > > focus on the fundamentals. And this needs to
> > be
> > > done in the elementary grades - struggling
> kids
> > > with very few exceptions either get it done
> > early
> > > on (3rd grade is a huge year) or they are in
> > > trouble for some time to come. This is why I
> > have
> > > a problem with Herrstein, Murray, et al and
> > others
> > > who focus on IQ differences - the public
> > schools
> > > must take the kids as they come - and
> frankly,
> > a
> > > rising tide lifts all boats - if there is the
> > > political will to raise the tide.
> > >
> > > And Neen is right - it makes no sense why the
> > > challenging schools in Reston perform worse
> > than
> > > the schools in Richmond or Norfolk.
> Virtually
> > > none of the serious negatives that one sees
> in
> > > those cities is present in Reston - and yet
> > scores
> > > really suffer. In response, let's make clear
> > that
> > > this has not come about through lack of
> effort
> > -
> > > there are good teachers in these schools that
> > are
> > > making saintly efforts - but the whole notion
> > of
> > > teaching what makes kids feel good as opposed
> > to
> > > teaching hardened skills that will hardwire
> > them
> > > for future challenges has just gone too far.
> > And
> > > teaching hardwired skills is tough - because
> > that
> > > means social promotion of all kinds stops -
> and
> > > that kind of activity receives all sorts of
> > > complaints about discrimination - but it is
> so
> > > necessary to do.
>
>
> Yeah, she also advocated for burning the American
> flag.


You need to listen to the MP3.

Ms Hone was not advocating burning the flag -- but she was advocating the right of free speech which includes the right to burn the flag.

Her larger point was that she takes stands based on principle -- not a bad quality in politicians. In effect she said torture is wrong in principle, so it is wrong no matter what information is gained.

The operative principle in our case is the right to due process, which there is substantial evidence has been violated. A study that goes through the motions of a process to land on a pre-determined choice is subverting the purpose of the process.

>
> I think that some posters want to have it both
> ways. They say that black kids in Richmond and
> elsewhere do better on tests because they comprise
> the whole school, and it's easier to teach when
> all students are more or less equal, as opposed to
> Dogwood and other low-performing Reston schools
> where there is more of a mix. Then they say that
> having too many disadvantaged kids in one school
> isn't good. Sorry, you can't make excuses both
> ways. Face it, Stu sucks as a SB member because
> the schools in Stu's district are low-performing
> when compared to other schools, and you can't use
> race, class, FRM, or ESOL as excuses. (remember
> Stuart). I'm not blaming the kids or their
> families (although in some cases the families
> might be part of the challenge, but I don't think
> that's special to Reston). I don't think that Stu
> or FCPS is doing their job. Wake up Reston and
> stop using psycho-babble about what's best for
> at-risk kids.


Dogwood is diverse. Not just all black and low income. Many ESOL. Also, many middle class.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mom Wrote:
> > Because there are 700-800 empty seats in the
> > school. That's one THIRD of our school.
> Factor
> > in the high percentage of ESOL and the 300 or
> so
> > students in the MMR Center, we are left with
> > something like 900 general ed kids. That makes
> an
> > already difficult situation even harder.
>
> Your arguments were long ago discarded.
>
> 1. ESOL kids can do quite well in the IB
> programme, which was designed for an international
> student base.
>
> 2. All FCPS high schools have some sort of Special
> Ed population.
>
> 3. As of 30 Sep 07 South Lakes was 69% full, same
> as Mt Vernon, and Falls Church was less than 66%
> full. They also border on overcrowded schools.
> What isn't anyone propose they be redistricted?
>
> 4. South Lakes has significantly fewer pupils per
> staff member.
>
> I'd ask if you had any more points you wish to
> discuss, but I suspect it would be a waste of time
> and that you would discard logical rebuttals just
> as the School Board did.

Do you really not understand the difference between the MMR magnet and special ed? All schools have special ed, true. Only South Lakes has the MMR magnet which pulls from schools in the area, and requires a significantly higher student-teacher ratio, which skews South Lakes' ratio as a whole.
What don't you get about this?.

c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I think that some posters want to have it both
> > ways. They say that black kids in Richmond and
> > elsewhere do better on tests because they
> comprise
> > the whole school, and it's easier to teach when
> > all students are more or less equal, as opposed
> to
> > Dogwood and other low-performing Reston schools
> > where there is more of a mix. Then they say
> that
> > having too many disadvantaged kids in one
> school
> > isn't good. Sorry, you can't make excuses both
> > ways. Face it, Stu sucks as a SB member because
> > the schools in Stu's district are
> low-performing
> > when compared to other schools, and you can't
> use
> > race, class, FRM, or ESOL as excuses. (remember
> > Stuart). I'm not blaming the kids or their
> > families (although in some cases the families
> > might be part of the challenge, but I don't
> think
> > that's special to Reston). I don't think that
> Stu
> > or FCPS is doing their job. Wake up Reston and
> > stop using psycho-babble about what's best for
> > at-risk kids.
>
>
> Dogwood is diverse. Not just all black and low
> income. Many ESOL. Also, many middle class.


That's what I said. "...as opposed to
> Dogwood and other low-performing Reston schools
> where there is more of a mix." Do you see the word "mix"? That means the same as diverse in this case.

MIT Grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > (Lord, i said i wasn't going to do this... you
> got
> > me MIT grad.) I already confessed that i live
> in
> > subsidized housing. 95% of the people within a
> > one block radius of me are FRM and/or ESOL.
> > Scroll up genius. Page 250, I believe.
> >
> > Peace out.
>
> And how do non-subsidized housing kids help your
> kids? Do you really think your kids benefit from
> being excluded from McNair kids. Do you believe
> that there is a critical mass of ESOL/FRM kids
> that should not be exceeded.
>
> Assuming you are telling the truth, I know you
> cannot speak for everyone in your housing, but
> tell me...do you really think your kids need to be
> surrounded by MORE kids from non-subsidized
> housing to succeed. If so, why...just what would
> 600 more kids do for your kids that the existing
> group does not do. What is the attraction in
> having more ESOL/FRM kids? M


I have already explained all this in spades. How did you get through MIT with such a severe processing deficiency? See... now you have me sinking to your level. That should make you happy. Don't say i never gave you anything.

SLPP, neither Forum Reader or Neen or anyone else with an agenda against stu/IB/Reston/South Lakes pay any attention to anything that does not fit their desired outcome. I do not pretend to understand their apparent obsession with this topic; it is beyond comprehension. All I know is that they will not be swayed, so you might as well give up trying to change their minds. They are what we call lost causes.

As has been said before, if they would direct their energies to something positive, and I don't mean changing minds on this forum, then they would be a lot more effective. One could say that they are preaching to the choir of anti-RD folks here. Not one piece of advice or information provided to folks on this board changed one thing about the outcome of the Board's decision. In fact, one could argue that anti-RD folks were mislead by some of the posters here.

Take my advice and move on. Most other people have and I plan to as of this moment.

MIT Grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > (Lord, i said i wasn't going to do this... you
> got
> > me MIT grad.) I already confessed that i live
> in
> > subsidized housing. 95% of the people within a
> > one block radius of me are FRM and/or ESOL.
> > Scroll up genius. Page 250, I believe.
> >
> > Peace out.
>
> And how do non-subsidized housing kids help your
> kids? Do you really think your kids benefit from
> being excluded from McNair kids. Do you believe
> that there is a critical mass of ESOL/FRM kids
> that should not be exceeded.
>
> Assuming you are telling the truth, I know you
> cannot speak for everyone in your housing, but
> tell me...do you really think your kids need to be
> surrounded by MORE kids from non-subsidized
> housing to succeed. If so, why...just what would
> 600 more kids do for your kids that the existing
> group does not do. What is the attraction in
> having more ESOL/FRM kids? M


For the last 255 pages, it hasn't done any good to prod them with facts and reason. It only makes them mad.

Singing Pigs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIT Grad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > c'mon Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > (Lord, i said i wasn't going to do this...
> you
> > got
> > > me MIT grad.) I already confessed that i
> live
> > in
> > > subsidized housing. 95% of the people within
> a
> > > one block radius of me are FRM and/or ESOL.
> > > Scroll up genius. Page 250, I believe.
> > >
> > > Peace out.
> >
> > And how do non-subsidized housing kids help
> your
> > kids? Do you really think your kids benefit
> from
> > being excluded from McNair kids. Do you
> believe
> > that there is a critical mass of ESOL/FRM kids
> > that should not be exceeded.
> >
> > Assuming you are telling the truth, I know you
> > cannot speak for everyone in your housing, but
> > tell me...do you really think your kids need to
> be
> > surrounded by MORE kids from non-subsidized
> > housing to succeed. If so, why...just what
> would
> > 600 more kids do for your kids that the
> existing
> > group does not do. What is the attraction in
> > having more ESOL/FRM kids? M
>
>
> For the last 255 pages, it hasn't done any good to
> prod them with facts and reason. It only makes
> them mad.


LOL

What's the harm? Wrote:
> > Yes, it is inconvenient for a lot of us. Why waste
> > his time and ours? Why make parents take time off
> > work for this?
> >
> > Don't forget the intimidation aspect. There ARE
> > parents who NEVER want to talk to a principal!
>
>
> For as much time that has been spent just on this
> board alone, not to mention, the various meetigns,
> public hearings and not to mention due dilleigence
> that most people seem to have done with respect to
> this, I am a bit surprised to read your comment
>
> Meaning what - and I am being sincere -
>
> I am surprised because many of the postings by
> those convinced that AP is the better choice for
> their kids indicated a lot of research and thought
> - so if truly it is about making the best choice,
> why not hear of what could possibly be additional
> useful information, or at a minimum validation
> that your current choice is the right one. Most
> of those postings have indicated that education is
> so very important, and investing time in
> interpreting the information is not a waste of
> time.
>
> As for the intimidation aspect, for those against
> AP and vocal, I find it hard to believe that you
> would be easily indimated, and in particular by a
> principal that most have agreed is fair, and
> respectful. If nothing else, I would think that
> those of you that have made that choice and feel
> it is the right choice, might want to use him, as
> a reasonable person, and not the big bad SB, as a
> tool or conduit to spread your message out to
> benefit potentially yourselves and/or others in
> the FCPS community

Fair is fair; I will treat your post as sincere.

Do you deny there is a pro-IB bais on the part of FCPS? If you think I am paranoid or exaggerating, just look at their latest "Advanced Placement And International Baccalaureate Fact Book" published by Instructional Services, February, 2008. Out of 38 pages, 16 are a full-color reproduction of an IB sales brochure. Not a single page from the College Board.

Or consider how difficult it is to nail down
- the FCPS budget numbers that show the considerable extra cost of IB
- how many and how well FPCS students do in specific AP and IB HL courses
- the considerable difference between HL and SL courses, especially in regards to college credit.

You have probably detected I am not easily intimidated when it comes to defending my cubs. However, as I have written before, there ARE parents who NEVER want to talk to a principal. I am also hearing pleas from some parents to take care of this for them, because it would cost them money to take time off work, because of a physical disability, because of child care issues, and/or because of a shyness over their English (which is MUCH stronger than my foreign language).

While the SLHS Principal may want to take a poll to decide how best to serve his school, those parents who have made their decisions should not have to justify their votes to any pollster, however well-meaning.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> Do you really not understand the difference
> between the MMR magnet and special ed? All
> schools have special ed, true. Only South Lakes
> has the MMR magnet which pulls from schools in the
> area, and requires a significantly higher
> student-teacher ratio, which skews South Lakes'
> ratio as a whole.
> What don't you get about this?.

MMR is PART of, not different from, the Special Ed program. Pick another disability. How about deafness? ONE high school in the county (not South Lakes) has a DHH (Deaf and Hearing Impaired) Center (I don't know of anyone who calls these facilites "magnets"). At least two transliterators are needed per student because the work is physically wearing. Not all students use ASL (American Sign Language) - some use Cued Speech - so the same "mainstream" classroom may have four transliterators in it. How you getting an idea how fast the staffing climbs?

Must we go through the staffing needs for other disabilities?

Tweetie Bird Wrote:
> Forum Reader, are you in a position to even be
> asked by Bruce Butler to come in for an interview?
> A friend of yours told me that you are in the
> Woodson pyramid, so I don't understand why you
> would be inconvenienced.
>
>--------------
There you go listening to rumors again. You think I have "friends"? That would surprise some on this forum.

Yes, I am being quite "inconvenienced" by this entire mess.

And in any case, to quote Another Brick in the Wall, "The operative principle in our case is the right to due process, which there is substantial evidence has been violated. A study that goes through the motions of a process to land on a pre-determined choice is subverting the purpose of the process."

I see what Kiva means, SLPP. It does not matter that MMR kids from Oakton, Westfield, Herndon, Chantilly, and South Lakes all attend school at SL. The SL program actually has severely retarded children, and the teacher ratio is one to one for those students. Facts are inconvenient when they get in the way of a good (or bad) agenda.

I asked Forum Reader if she is actually affected by this RD,and she won't respond, which tells me that my friend is correct about her Woodson affiliation. She is behaving disingenuously if she is in the Woodson pyramid.

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> Unless I am mistaken, MIT Grad's comments were
> directed at Kiva, not Forum Reader.

That would make some sense, but go back to:
"Posted by: MIT Grad (IP Logged)
Date: March 03, 2008 01:45PM"

when he responded to Forum Reader:
"Don't know how many pseudonyms you have used, but I imagine you are not knew [sic] to this forum. ..."

Dear Forum Reader, I applaud your Clintonian non-answer. You may be 'quite inconvenienced' as a taxpayer, but not as a resident of one of the affected pyramids.

Actually your 'friend' says you are socially inept, so perhaps you don't have friends in the true sense of the word. Judging by your time spent in front of the keyboard, that may be the case. At any rate, I couldn't say.

Tweetie Bird Wrote:
> ... I asked Forum Reader if she is actually affected
> by this RD,and she won't respond, which tells me
> that my friend is correct about her Woodson
> affiliation. She is behaving disingenuously if
> she is in the Woodson pyramid.

Wrong again. I did answer as I have answered before. Forum ReaderI decline to identify myself further for the privacy of my family.

Other than Maria Allen I think we have all tried to ensure this same privacy. I admire Maria Allen for "outing" herself, but with all the harassment her family reportedly received, I don't think any of us want to emulate her brave example.

However, that by no means I am trying to inhibit YOU if you wish to post your real name, e-dress, phone number, address, school affiliation, whatever.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > Do you really not understand the difference
> > between the MMR magnet and special ed? All
> > schools have special ed, true. Only South
> Lakes
> > has the MMR magnet which pulls from schools in
> the
> > area, and requires a significantly higher
> > student-teacher ratio, which skews South Lakes'
> > ratio as a whole.
> > What don't you get about this?.
>
> MMR is PART of, not different from, the Special Ed
> program. Pick another disability. How about
> deafness? ONE high school in the county (not South
> Lakes) has a DHH (Deaf and Hearing Impaired)
> Center (I don't know of anyone who calls these
> facilites "magnets"). At least two transliterators
> are needed per student because the work is
> physically wearing. Not all students use ASL
> (American Sign Language) - some use Cued Speech -
> so the same "mainstream" classroom may have four
> transliterators in it. How you getting an idea how
> fast the staffing climbs?
>
> Must we go through the staffing needs for other
> disabilities?

You've just made my point for me. The MMR (mildly mentally retarded) is distinct from the special ed population that every school has. It is a magnet in that it draws from surrounding schools because it provides special services not provided at base schools. I still don't understand what you don't get about this.

Max Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Max Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I have spoken with Mr. Butler regarding
> > splitting
> > > siblings and he can empathize with parents
> who
> > are
> > > in that situation. He knows how hard it
> would
> > be
> > > for parents to support 2 high schools. He is
> a
> > > reasonable man and will probably approve all
> > > requests for pupil-placement of students to
> the
> > AP
> > > program, especially if they have a sibling
> > already
> > > at Oakton. He probably just wants to make
> sure
> > > the pupil being placed out of SL for the AP
> > > program can really do the program. I think
> > this
> > > is totally acceptable. Of course the SB only
> > > cared about split-feeders and not
> > split-families,
> > > so we have to go this route.
> >
> >
> > That all sounds reasonable. I think people's
> > concern with the interview process is that 1)
> it
> > raised the question of whether he would be
> making
> > decisions on who stays and who goes, and 2)
> there
> > is a deadline for submitting these forms, and
> > although it is still about 6 weeks away, some
> > parents might get caught up in a long wait for
> an
> > interview. If neither of these things prevents
> > valid pupil placing, then no problem.
> >
> > After what some posters have said on here about
> > GPA requirements to pupil place into Madison, I
> > think the concern isn't surprising.
>
> GPA requirements are not a bad idea. The AP
> program is rigorous and many people might use
> pupil-placing into the AP program as a quick fix
> to get into the school of their choice. Mr.
> Butler is just making sure those students really
> belong. Anyone who has turned their
> pupil-placement forms into SL should make periodic
> phone calls to make sure they stay in the loop.




No other school has a GPA requirement for AP. If this is a good idea then implement county-wide (which will never happen)

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> another observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Observer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Can someone fill me in - did I correctly hear
> > that
> > > Tina Hone compared her vote against RD to
> > having
> > > the courage to oppose torture?
> > >
> > >
> > > quantum Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > skeptic - it is as if you are wilfully
> being
> > > > intransigent to embrace fatalism. Yes,
> there
> > > are
> > > > social problems in the affected communities
> -
> > > and
> > > > the schools would be far better off to
> > realize
> > > > that they cannot fix most of them - thank
> you
> > > out
> > > > of wedlock births and great society
> programs
> > > that
> > > > discourage accountability - but what the
> > > schools
> > > > can do is give an intense education with a
> > keen
> > > > focus on the fundamentals. And this needs
> to
> > > be
> > > > done in the elementary grades - struggling
> > kids
> > > > with very few exceptions either get it done
> > > early
> > > > on (3rd grade is a huge year) or they are
> in
> > > > trouble for some time to come. This is why
> I
> > > have
> > > > a problem with Herrstein, Murray, et al and
> > > others
> > > > who focus on IQ differences - the public
> > > schools
> > > > must take the kids as they come - and
> > frankly,
> > > a
> > > > rising tide lifts all boats - if there is
> the
> > > > political will to raise the tide.
> > > >
> > > > And Neen is right - it makes no sense why
> the
> > > > challenging schools in Reston perform worse
> > > than
> > > > the schools in Richmond or Norfolk.
> > Virtually
> > > > none of the serious negatives that one sees
> > in
> > > > those cities is present in Reston - and yet
> > > scores
> > > > really suffer. In response, let's make
> clear
> > > that
> > > > this has not come about through lack of
> > effort
> > > -
> > > > there are good teachers in these schools
> that
> > > are
> > > > making saintly efforts - but the whole
> notion
> > > of
> > > > teaching what makes kids feel good as
> opposed
> > > to
> > > > teaching hardened skills that will hardwire
> > > them
> > > > for future challenges has just gone too far.
>
> > > And
> > > > teaching hardwired skills is tough -
> because
> > > that
> > > > means social promotion of all kinds stops -
> > and
> > > > that kind of activity receives all sorts of
> > > > complaints about discrimination - but it is
> > so
> > > > necessary to do.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, she also advocated for burning the
> American
> > flag.
>
>
> You need to listen to the MP3.
>
> Ms Hone was not advocating burning the flag -- but
> she was advocating the right of free speech which
> includes the right to burn the flag.
>
> Her larger point was that she takes stands based
> on principle -- not a bad quality in politicians.
> In effect she said torture is wrong in principle,
> so it is wrong no matter what information is
> gained.
>
> The operative principle in our case is the right
> to due process, which there is substantial
> evidence has been violated. A study that goes
> through the motions of a process to land on a
> pre-determined choice is subverting the purpose of
> the process.

Torture certainly is nothing if not the denial of due process. Of course it's more than that - it's a human rights abuse of profound magnitude. Tina Hone's comparison of the principle of opposing torture to the "principle" of opposing an alleged due process violation in the RD process is absurd, offensive, and trivializes torture. In any event, the RD process did not deny due process - there were dozens of break-out sessions over 3 town-hall meetings in which thousands of parents participated; over 500 speakers at 3 board meetings; thousands of e-mails and letters which were posted on the web for all to read and consider; and in the process 7 different proposals were officially considered (original 4 + option 5 + Smith and Gibson's late options). Regardless of whether one thinks the end result was right, no one's due process rights were violated, and it's highly offensive and immoral for Tina Hone or you to justify her vote opposing RD by saying it was based on the same principle as opposing torture.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> You've just made my point for me. The MMR (mildly
> mentally retarded) is distinct from the special ed
> population that every school has. It is a magnet
> in that it draws from surrounding schools because
> it provides special services not provided at base
> schools. I still don't understand what you don't
> get about this.

Let me try again: Other high schools also have Special Ed centers that draw from other areas. Yes, SLHS has a program for a certain category of Special Ed students, but so do other high schools (not including Jefferson).

[Was I more clear that time?]

Poster Wrote:
> No other school has a GPA requirement for AP. ...

Which would not make sense anyway because students can take individual AP courses in their areas of strength, which is just one of the features I prefer about AP.

As we all know, some math and science types are weak in language skills. Similarly, many gifted students do not belong at Jefferson because their gifts do not lie in science and technology.

Anti-Hone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > another observer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Observer Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Can someone fill me in - did I correctly
> hear
> > > that
> > > > Tina Hone compared her vote against RD to
> > > having
> > > > the courage to oppose torture?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > quantum Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > skeptic - it is as if you are wilfully
> > being
> > > > > intransigent to embrace fatalism. Yes,
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > social problems in the affected
> communities
> > -
> > > > and
> > > > > the schools would be far better off to
> > > realize
> > > > > that they cannot fix most of them - thank
> > you
> > > > out
> > > > > of wedlock births and great society
> > programs
> > > > that
> > > > > discourage accountability - but what the
> > > > schools
> > > > > can do is give an intense education with
> a
> > > keen
> > > > > focus on the fundamentals. And this
> needs
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > done in the elementary grades -
> struggling
> > > kids
> > > > > with very few exceptions either get it
> done
> > > > early
> > > > > on (3rd grade is a huge year) or they are
> > in
> > > > > trouble for some time to come. This is
> why
> > I
> > > > have
> > > > > a problem with Herrstein, Murray, et al
> and
> > > > others
> > > > > who focus on IQ differences - the public
> > > > schools
> > > > > must take the kids as they come - and
> > > frankly,
> > > > a
> > > > > rising tide lifts all boats - if there is
> > the
> > > > > political will to raise the tide.
> > > > >
> > > > > And Neen is right - it makes no sense why
> > the
> > > > > challenging schools in Reston perform
> worse
> > > > than
> > > > > the schools in Richmond or Norfolk.
> > > Virtually
> > > > > none of the serious negatives that one
> sees
> > > in
> > > > > those cities is present in Reston - and
> yet
> > > > scores
> > > > > really suffer. In response, let's make
> > clear
> > > > that
> > > > > this has not come about through lack of
> > > effort
> > > > -
> > > > > there are good teachers in these schools
> > that
> > > > are
> > > > > making saintly efforts - but the whole
> > notion
> > > > of
> > > > > teaching what makes kids feel good as
> > opposed
> > > > to
> > > > > teaching hardened skills that will
> hardwire
> > > > them
> > > > > for future challenges has just gone too
> far.
> >
> > > > And
> > > > > teaching hardwired skills is tough -
> > because
> > > > that
> > > > > means social promotion of all kinds stops
> -
> > > and
> > > > > that kind of activity receives all sorts
> of
> > > > > complaints about discrimination - but it
> is
> > > so
> > > > > necessary to do.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, she also advocated for burning the
> > American
> > > flag.
> >
> >
> > You need to listen to the MP3.
> >
> > Ms Hone was not advocating burning the flag --
> but
> > she was advocating the right of free speech
> which
> > includes the right to burn the flag.
> >
> > Her larger point was that she takes stands
> based
> > on principle -- not a bad quality in
> politicians.
> > In effect she said torture is wrong in
> principle,
> > so it is wrong no matter what information is
> > gained.
> >
> > The operative principle in our case is the
> right
> > to due process, which there is substantial
> > evidence has been violated. A study that goes
> > through the motions of a process to land on a
> > pre-determined choice is subverting the purpose
> of
> > the process.
>
> Torture certainly is nothing if not the denial of
> due process. Of course it's more than that - it's
> a human rights abuse of profound magnitude. Tina
> Hone's comparison of the principle of opposing
> torture to the "principle" of opposing an alleged
> due process violation in the RD process is absurd,
> offensive, and trivializes torture. In any event,
> the RD process did not deny due process - there
> were dozens of break-out sessions over 3 town-hall
> meetings in which thousands of parents
> participated; over 500 speakers at 3 board
> meetings; thousands of e-mails and letters which
> were posted on the web for all to read and
> consider; and in the process 7 different proposals
> were officially considered (original 4 + option 5
> + Smith and Gibson's late options). Regardless of
> whether one thinks the end result was right, no
> one's due process rights were violated, and it's
> highly offensive and immoral for Tina Hone or you
> to justify her vote opposing RD by saying it was
> based on the same principle as opposing torture.


Basically Hone was talking about the due process of the boundary study as flawed and even the sb admitted it was flawed and they seemed indifferent about it. My gut feeling is that fcps staff AND the sb knew who was going from about 3 years ago. Even there has been proof from SL students posting on Schoolmatters about what they thought of their school and one student poster admitted he knew that south Herndon kids would be coming and that was dated TWO years ago. What is upsetting is that those opposed to the RD were not really heard by the sb...there has been no compromise or a measure to make the flawed process a fairer one for both sides. Nothing.

Anti-Hone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Torture certainly is nothing if not the denial of
> due process. Of course it's more than that - it's
> a human rights abuse of profound magnitude. Tina
> Hone's comparison of the principle of opposing
> torture to the "principle" of opposing an alleged
> due process violation in the RD process is absurd,
> offensive, and trivializes torture.

You are missing it again. She is saying she acts on principle, whether the principle is "torture is always wrong", "free speech should be protected", or "people have due process rights". The only point of comparison is that these are all principles -- albeit different ones.

I happen to believe that having politicians with known principles is a good thing, because as a citizen I have a lot better idea of what I am getting. Now you may not agree, but that is your choice.

In any event,
> the RD process did not deny due process - there
> were dozens of break-out sessions over 3 town-hall
> meetings in which thousands of parents
> participated; over 500 speakers at 3 board
> meetings; thousands of e-mails and letters which
> were posted on the web for all to read and
> consider; and in the process 7 different proposals
> were officially considered (original 4 + option 5
> + Smith and Gibson's late options). Regardless of
> whether one thinks the end result was right, no
> one's due process rights were violated, and it's
> highly offensive and immoral for Tina Hone or you
> to justify her vote opposing RD by saying it was
> based on the same principle as opposing torture.

It is likely that the courts will decide this. You cite evidence of the process -- there is plenty of evidence to the contrary which is not needed to rehash here. In the end, it does not matter what you or I think -- though I happen to think it is immoral and offensive that one community forcibly annexes another.

FR, another non-denial denial. You won't even state if you are in an affected pyramid, and by that I mean Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield, or Madison. I know you are in Woodson, you know you are in Woodson, and several others posting her know you are in Woodson. BFD. What would be the harm in stating it, but that you have passed yourself off as 'involved.' I'll give it to Neen, at least she admits (and boasts) about her location.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anti-Hone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > another observer Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Observer Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Can someone fill me in - did I correctly
> > hear
> > > > that
> > > > > Tina Hone compared her vote against RD to
> > > > having
> > > > > the courage to oppose torture?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > quantum Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > skeptic - it is as if you are wilfully
> > > being
> > > > > > intransigent to embrace fatalism. Yes,
> > > there
> > > > > are
> > > > > > social problems in the affected
> > communities
> > > -
> > > > > and
> > > > > > the schools would be far better off to
> > > > realize
> > > > > > that they cannot fix most of them -
> thank
> > > you
> > > > > out
> > > > > > of wedlock births and great society
> > > programs
> > > > > that
> > > > > > discourage accountability - but what
> the
> > > > > schools
> > > > > > can do is give an intense education
> with
> > a
> > > > keen
> > > > > > focus on the fundamentals. And this
> > needs
> > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > done in the elementary grades -
> > struggling
> > > > kids
> > > > > > with very few exceptions either get it
> > done
> > > > > early
> > > > > > on (3rd grade is a huge year) or they
> are
> > > in
> > > > > > trouble for some time to come. This is
> > why
> > > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a problem with Herrstein, Murray, et al
> > and
> > > > > others
> > > > > > who focus on IQ differences - the
> public
> > > > > schools
> > > > > > must take the kids as they come - and
> > > > frankly,
> > > > > a
> > > > > > rising tide lifts all boats - if there
> is
> > > the
> > > > > > political will to raise the tide.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And Neen is right - it makes no sense
> why
> > > the
> > > > > > challenging schools in Reston perform
> > worse
> > > > > than
> > > > > > the schools in Richmond or Norfolk.
> > > > Virtually
> > > > > > none of the serious negatives that one
> > sees
> > > > in
> > > > > > those cities is present in Reston - and
> > yet
> > > > > scores
> > > > > > really suffer. In response, let's make
> > > clear
> > > > > that
> > > > > > this has not come about through lack of
> > > > effort
> > > > > -
> > > > > > there are good teachers in these
> schools
> > > that
> > > > > are
> > > > > > making saintly efforts - but the whole
> > > notion
> > > > > of
> > > > > > teaching what makes kids feel good as
> > > opposed
> > > > > to
> > > > > > teaching hardened skills that will
> > hardwire
> > > > > them
> > > > > > for future challenges has just gone too
> > far.
> > >
> > > > > And
> > > > > > teaching hardwired skills is tough -
> > > because
> > > > > that
> > > > > > means social promotion of all kinds
> stops
> > -
> > > > and
> > > > > > that kind of activity receives all
> sorts
> > of
> > > > > > complaints about discrimination - but
> it
> > is
> > > > so
> > > > > > necessary to do.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, she also advocated for burning the
> > > American
> > > > flag.
> > >
> > >
> > > You need to listen to the MP3.
> > >
> > > Ms Hone was not advocating burning the flag
> --
> > but
> > > she was advocating the right of free speech
> > which
> > > includes the right to burn the flag.
> > >
> > > Her larger point was that she takes stands
> > based
> > > on principle -- not a bad quality in
> > politicians.
> > > In effect she said torture is wrong in
> > principle,
> > > so it is wrong no matter what information is
> > > gained.
> > >
> > > The operative principle in our case is the
> > right
> > > to due process, which there is substantial
> > > evidence has been violated. A study that
> goes
> > > through the motions of a process to land on a
> > > pre-determined choice is subverting the
> purpose
> > of
> > > the process.
> >
> > Torture certainly is nothing if not the denial
> of
> > due process. Of course it's more than that -
> it's
> > a human rights abuse of profound magnitude.
> Tina
> > Hone's comparison of the principle of opposing
> > torture to the "principle" of opposing an
> alleged
> > due process violation in the RD process is
> absurd,
> > offensive, and trivializes torture. In any
> event,
> > the RD process did not deny due process - there
> > were dozens of break-out sessions over 3
> town-hall
> > meetings in which thousands of parents
> > participated; over 500 speakers at 3 board
> > meetings; thousands of e-mails and letters
> which
> > were posted on the web for all to read and
> > consider; and in the process 7 different
> proposals
> > were officially considered (original 4 + option
> 5
> > + Smith and Gibson's late options). Regardless
> of
> > whether one thinks the end result was right, no
> > one's due process rights were violated, and
> it's
> > highly offensive and immoral for Tina Hone or
> you
> > to justify her vote opposing RD by saying it
> was
> > based on the same principle as opposing
> torture.
>
>
> Basically Hone was talking about the due process
> of the boundary study as flawed and even the sb
> admitted it was flawed and they seemed indifferent
> about it. My gut feeling is that fcps staff AND
> the sb knew who was going from about 3 years ago.
> Even there has been proof from SL students posting
> on Schoolmatters about what they thought of their
> school and one student poster admitted he knew
> that south Herndon kids would be coming and that
> was dated TWO years ago. What is upsetting is
> that those opposed to the RD were not really heard
> by the sb...there has been no compromise or a
> measure to make the flawed process a fairer one
> for both sides. Nothing.

OK - so not only is opposing RD based on the same principle as opposing torture, but the SB, the FCPS staff, and untold members of the public were engaged in a vast 3 year conspiracy? Was Navy part of this alleged 3 year conspiracy? Was Madison island part of this alleged 3 year conspiracy? Are you saying that if the staff's option 1, or option 2, or option 3, or option 4 had been supported in the town-hall breakout sessions that the FCPS staff and SB would have ignored that and pulled out a cooked-up option 5 regardless? There clearly was no conspiracy; no due process violation. The staff's logical progression from option 1 to option 5 was obvious for all who was involved - the anti-RD folks wanted nothing done, but that was not an option (rightly so), and thus the FCPS staff landed on a new option that basically met the RD goals but also reflected the anti-RD folks's "do nothing" message as well (by impacting the fewest students).

Need we forget that the original scenario, that supposedly was not a done deal, is in fact the signed sealed and dleivered done deal. Due process in mechanics only. The school board and school staff knew from the beginning had an agenda and they pretended to care about a process and in Kathy Smiths case did not even demonstrate caring. I think there is evidence of agregeous behavior on the school board.


> >
> > Basically Hone was talking about the due
> process
> > of the boundary study as flawed and even the sb
> > admitted it was flawed and they seemed
> indifferent
> > about it. My gut feeling is that fcps staff
> AND
> > the sb knew who was going from about 3 years
> ago.
> > Even there has been proof from SL students
> posting
> > on Schoolmatters about what they thought of
> their
> > school and one student poster admitted he knew
> > that south Herndon kids would be coming and
> that
> > was dated TWO years ago. What is upsetting is
> > that those opposed to the RD were not really
> heard
> > by the sb...there has been no compromise or a
> > measure to make the flawed process a fairer one
> > for both sides. Nothing.
>
> OK - so not only is opposing RD based on the same
> principle as opposing torture, but the SB, the
> FCPS staff, and untold members of the public were
> engaged in a vast 3 year conspiracy? Was Navy
> part of this alleged 3 year conspiracy? Was
> Madison island part of this alleged 3 year
> conspiracy? Are you saying that if the staff's
> option 1, or option 2, or option 3, or option 4
> had been supported in the town-hall breakout
> sessions that the FCPS staff and SB would have
> ignored that and pulled out a cooked-up option 5
> regardless? There clearly was no conspiracy; no
> due process violation. The staff's logical
> progression from option 1 to option 5 was obvious
> for all who was involved - the anti-RD folks
> wanted nothing done, but that was not an option
> (rightly so), and thus the FCPS staff landed on a
> new option that basically met the RD goals but
> also reflected the anti-RD folks's "do nothing"
> message as well (by impacting the fewest
> students).

Articles this last week:

On how universities want students who can write:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/02/AR2008030202215.html

On how the world needs people who consider more than themselves:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/28/AR2008022803315.html?hpid=smartliving

Tweetie Bird Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR, another non-denial denial. You won't even
> state if you are in an affected pyramid, and by
> that I mean Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield, or
> Madison. I know you are in Woodson, you know you
> are in Woodson, and several others posting her
> know you are in Woodson. BFD. What would be the
> harm in stating it, but that you have passed
> yourself off as 'involved.' I'll give it to Neen,
> at least she admits (and boasts) about her
> location.


Just post her intitials and I will post her name especially if she is from that rabid RENEW group.

Not Jack Dale Wrote:
> Just post her intitials and I will post her name
> especially if she is from that rabid RENEW group.

--------
No, not a member of RENEW, but I know what it is. (Do you have a point with these guessing games?)

If you think I have posted an erroneous comment, please repost it (with the date and time, please, so I can find it in context) and I will be happy to clear it up.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> You've just made my point for me. The MMR (mildly
> mentally retarded) is distinct from the special ed
> population that every school has. It is a magnet
> in that it draws from surrounding schools because
> it provides special services not provided at base
> schools. I still don't understand what you don't
> get about this.

Let me try again: Other high schools also have Special Ed centers that draw from other areas. Yes, SLHS has a program for a certain category of Special Ed students, but so do other high schools (not including Jefferson).

[Was I more clear that time?]



My original point that has already been stated once before... Right now, one third of SL sits empty... of the 1400 or so that are there, MMR Center students are generally separate class-wise (as in a GT Center)... ESOL students generally take classes together as well (yes, these can be IB courses, yet may be separate from fluent speakers of english due to differences in pace and what not)... so you are left with a general ed population of 900 or so students for core academics (225 or so per grade)... I don't believe any other high school in the county has such a small student body... of these 900 you will find all levels, about half will take at least one advance level class (class of 2007 had 55 IB diploma candidates... that would be about 20% of seniors)

adding 700 students (or even a significant portion of that) is something you would want as well if your school was underenrolled as SL.. filling the 700 empty seats at SL almost doubles the opportunities for general ed and advance study students... and will bring more life to our tiny school... end result is bringing SL on par with neighboring schools... how is that unreasonable for us to desire for our children?

that said... we are not cold... we know what other people are going through... and it does not make us feel good... for anyone who is willing to give SL an honost effort, we want to help them feel welcome and ease their anxieties

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mom Wrote:
> > Because there are 700-800 empty seats in the
> > school. That's one THIRD of our school.
> Factor
> > in the high percentage of ESOL and the 300 or
> so
> > students in the MMR Center, we are left with
> > something like 900 general ed kids. That makes
> an
> > already difficult situation even harder.
>
> Your arguments were long ago discarded.
>
> 1. ESOL kids can do quite well in the IB
> programme, which was designed for an international
> student base.
>
> 2. All FCPS high schools have some sort of Special
> Ed population.
>
> 3. As of 30 Sep 07 South Lakes was 69% full, same
> as Mt Vernon, and Falls Church was less than 66%
> full. They also border on overcrowded schools.
> What isn't anyone propose they be redistricted?
>
> 4. South Lakes has significantly fewer pupils per
> staff member.
>
> I'd ask if you had any more points you wish to
> discuss, but I suspect it would be a waste of time
> and that you would discard logical rebuttals just
> as the School Board did.


See my post above.

Tweetie Bird Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FR, another non-denial denial. You won't even
> state if you are in an affected pyramid, and by
> that I mean Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield, or
> Madison. I know you are in Woodson, you know you
> are in Woodson, and several others posting her
> know you are in Woodson. BFD. What would be the
> harm in stating it, but that you have passed
> yourself off as 'involved.' I'll give it to Neen,
> at least she admits (and boasts) about her
> location.


who cares?

We never said this RD is not necessary for SL. But the reason I am against this RD is that the process is flawed from the beginning. If this RD included all SL neighbor high schools that should include Langley and Madison from the beginning. If gave all options that end up with this current option is the best one, I would love to give it a try.

For me, it's not SL, it's not IB or AP, it's this flawed process and also some SLPTA labeled us as racist that deeply hurt me. That feeling is not going to go away easily.

I wish SL and all my neighbors who will join SL in the Fall all the best. I also hope SB will at least learn some lesson from this painful process and make some improvement in the future.



c'mon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > You've just made my point for me. The MMR
> (mildly
> > mentally retarded) is distinct from the special
> ed
> > population that every school has. It is a magnet
>
> > in that it draws from surrounding schools
> because
> > it provides special services not provided at
> base
> > schools. I still don't understand what you don't
>
> > get about this.
>
> Let me try again: Other high schools also have
> Special Ed centers that draw from other areas.
> Yes, SLHS has a program for a certain category of
> Special Ed students, but so do other high schools
> (not including Jefferson).
>
>
>
>
>
> My original point that has already been stated
> once before... Right now, one third of SL sits
> empty... of the 1400 or so that are there, MMR
> Center students are generally separate class-wise
> (as in a GT Center)... ESOL students generally
> take classes together as well (yes, these can be
> IB courses, yet may be separate from fluent
> speakers of english due to differences in pace and
> what not)... so you are left with a general ed
> population of 900 or so students for core
> academics (225 or so per grade)... I don't believe
> any other high school in the county has such a
> small student body... of these 900 you will find
> all levels, about half will take at least one
> advance level class (class of 2007 had 55 IB
> diploma candidates... that would be about 20% of
> seniors)
>
> adding 700 students (or even a significant portion
> of that) is something you would want as well if
> your school was underenrolled as SL.. filling the
> 700 empty seats at SL almost doubles the
> opportunities for general ed and advance study
> students... and will bring more life to our tiny
> school... end result is bringing SL on par with
> neighboring schools... how is that unreasonable
> for us to desire for our children?
>
> that said... we are not cold... we know what other
> people are going through... and it does not make
> us feel good... for anyone who is willing to give
> SL an honost effort, we want to help them feel
> welcome and ease their anxieties

Fish or Cut Bait Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's exactly right, AP vs. IB, and at SL it is a
> volunteer position, so no extra money spent there.
> FR is a know-it-all who is so smart that she
> can't even admit that her IB info may be out of
> date or incorrect. Too bad for her. She is still
> trapped in the Woodson glory days.


Why are you so angry? Every IB school has an IB coordinator. It is not an volunteer position, it is a paid position. IB is dictated by the IB office in Europe. They decide how the program is run, not FCPS.
http://www.ibo.org/council/

When did Woodson lose its glory? Since FR currently has children at Woodson, you might want to inform her that Woodson's glory days are past. She and her children are not aware of the passing.

Not Jack Dale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tweetie Bird Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FR, another non-denial denial. You won't even
> > state if you are in an affected pyramid, and by
> > that I mean Oakton, Chantilly, Westfield, or
> > Madison. I know you are in Woodson, you know
> you
> > are in Woodson, and several others posting her
> > know you are in Woodson. BFD. What would be
> the
> > harm in stating it, but that you have passed
> > yourself off as 'involved.' I'll give it to
> Neen,
> > at least she admits (and boasts) about her
> > location.
>
>
> Just post her intitials and I will post her name
> especially if she is from that rabid RENEW group.

What the heck is wrong with you people? Either her arguments are valid, or they aren't. What difference does make where she pays taxes to support ALL the schools? Any taxpayer has a right to comment on how their taxes are being spent, or wasted.

Can you not debate FR's points so you must resort to personal attacks?

c'mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > c'mon wrote:
> >
> > "On the subject of outperforming... I clearly
> > remember Jane Strauss making a comment last
> > thursday in regards to the number of graduating
> > seniors at South Lakes last year having a 4.0
> or
> > greater GPA... something like 35 (I can't
> remember
> > the exact number) She said that was more than
> any
> > other high schools in this area, including
> Oakton
> > and Langley. And South lakes had the highest
> > percentage of students accepted to UVA.
> >
> > Also, I remember seeing an article somewhere
> this
> > year about South Lakes having the greatest
> > improvement in some or another scores... SAT
> > maybe. Really very sorry I didn't pay any more
> > attention to that at the time. I can try to
> look
> > it up tonight, but I've had enough. I'm off to
> > bed. "
> >
> >
> > If that was the case, then WHY the need to
> > redistrict and disrupt these families? I am
> > sorry, but your posts sound alot like
> SLverity's.
>
>
> Because there are 700-800 empty seats in the
> school. That's one THIRD of our school. Factor
> in the high percentage of ESOL and the 300 or so
> students in the MMR Center, we are left with
> something like 900 general ed kids. That makes an
> already difficult situation even harder. This
> redistricting should almost double our students
> opportunities.
>
> If people were getting redistricted to Langley,
> would we be talking about this? Even if Langley
> was an IB school?
>
> What if it was your current school that was having
> SLHS's issues?

What if it was your current school that was having SLHS's issues? I sure as hell wouldn't kidnap kids, families and neighborhoods that have no interest in IB or South Lakes, or any connection to South Lakes, for that matter. It's a foriegn country to Floris area families. You've made your troubles ours. Thanks a pile to you, your croneys and Stewie.

Tweetie Bird Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader, are you in a position to even be
> asked by Bruce Butler to come in for an interview?
> A friend of yours told me that you are in the
> Woodson pyramid, so I don't understand why you
> would be inconvenienced.
>
> Neen, will you ever quit? Not satisfied to
> counsel parents to pupil place, You now try to
> ascribe ulterior motives to Bruce Butler's good
> faith efforts. I wonder at your motivations.
>
> Point of clarification, Neen: McNair is not in
> Reston. I also wonder why you never criticize
> Herndon (Dranesville District) because they have
> several schools that did not make AYP, including
> Herndon Middle, and one that is Title I. Oh, I
> forgot, they are not in Stu's district and are
> thus above criticism. Your critiques are only
> reserved for Reston or anything related to Stu.
> In the words of Bugs Bunny, what a maroon!!

Forgive me, I am not as familiar with schools outside of my district, although I probably should be since we all pay for all of them.

Please tell us why Bruce Butler must interview every parent, if there is a reason other than to change their minds.

Why would it matter what pyramid anyone is in? Don't they all pay for all the schools? Don't we all want the best programs for ALL students? Don't we all have a right to care if our money is being spent on the best programs for all students?

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that I must know, and be concerned about, ALL schools, in ALL districts, yet Forum Reader cannot comment on schools outside of her pyramid. Which is it? We must be completely provincial? Or have a universal concern, and universal knowledge about, of all schools in all districts of the county?

Food For Thought Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Articles this last week:
>
> On how universities want students who can write:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic
> le/2008/03/02/AR2008030202215.html
>
> On how the world needs people who consider more
> than themselves:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic
> le/2008/02/28/AR2008022803315.html?hpid=smartlivin
> g

Yes, it's terrible that FCPS doesn't teach students how to write. That should begin in elementary school and be carried through high school.

Yes, nice people are, well, nice.

Thanks for sharing!

FlawedProcess Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We never said this RD is not necessary for SL. But
> the reason I am against this RD is that the
> process is flawed from the beginning. If this RD
> included all SL neighbor high schools that should
> include Langley and Madison from the beginning. If
> gave all options that end up with this current
> option is the best one, I would love to give it a
> try.
>
> For me, it's not SL, it's not IB or AP, it's this
> flawed process and also some SLPTA labeled us as
> racist that deeply hurt me. That feeling is not
> going to go away easily.
>
> I wish SL and all my neighbors who will join SL in
> the Fall all the best. I also hope SB will at
> least learn some lesson from this painful process
> and make some improvement in the future.
>
>


That's too bad, because we could use some more passionate and involved parents like yourself. Besides, anyone who is big enough to give SL a chance (and maybe even the IB program) is okay with us... and clearly not racist or classist. It's also unfortunate that SL would have to pay the price for something that was beyond their power.

c'mon Wrote:
> My original point that has already been stated
> once before... filling the
> 700 empty seats at SL almost doubles the
> opportunities for general ed and advance study
> students... and will bring more life to our tiny
> school... end result is bringing SL on par with
> neighboring schools... how is that unreasonable
> for us to desire for our children?

Can you state ONE main thesis?

- If it is that your school is 69% full, so is Mt Vernon, and Falls Church is even more empty.

- If the problem is the size of the senior class, as of 30 Jan:
Mt Vernon 303 seniors (216 students listed separately as Special Ed, all grades)
Hayfield 303 seniors (139 Special Ed).
Marshall 269 (130 Special Ed).
SLHS 287 (plus 208 Special Ed).
Falls Church 218 (182 Special Ed).
I can give you FRM, ESOL, and and racial composition of these five schools, but I think most of us are trying to avoid making this an issue of race or class. My point of listing all these numbers is only to indicate that it is difficult to perceive a unique problem at SLHS.

- If the problem is SLHS wants the same curriculum as is offered at neighboring schools, then get rid of IB. Or make it a separate Academy within the same building so those students who want an IB Diploma could still go for it.

>
> Do you really not understand the difference
> between the MMR magnet and special ed? All
> schools have special ed, true. Only South Lakes
> has the MMR magnet which pulls from schools in the
> area, and requires a significantly higher
> student-teacher ratio, which skews South Lakes'
> ratio as a whole.
> What don't you get about this?

You mean like Madison's ED center which draws from all over the county? Or Woodson's center for the deaf students, which also draws from all over the county? Are you saying that students with severe emotional problems, so severe that they must be in an ED center, and students who are deaf, don't require special staffing ratios?

What do YOU not get about other high schools also having centers that require special staffing ratios?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mon Wrote:
> > My original point that has already been stated
> > once before... filling the
> > 700 empty seats at SL almost doubles the
> > opportunities for general ed and advance study
> > students... and will bring more life to our
> tiny
> > school... end result is bringing SL on par with
> > neighboring schools... how is that unreasonable
> > for us to desire for our children?
>
> Can you state ONE main thesis?
>
> - If it is that your school is 69% full, so is Mt
> Vernon, and Falls Church is even more empty.
>
> - If the problem is the size of the senior class,
> as of 30 Jan:
> Mt Vernon 303 seniors (216 students listed
> separately as Special Ed, all grades)
> Hayfield 303 seniors (139 Special Ed).
> Marshall 269 (130 Special Ed).
> SLHS 287 (plus 208 Special Ed).
> Falls Church 218 (182 Special Ed).
> I can give you FRM, ESOL, and and racial
> composition of these five schools, but I think
> most of us are trying to avoid making this an
> issue of race or class. My point of listing all
> these numbers is only to indicate that it is
> difficult to perceive a unique problem at SLHS.
>
> - If the problem is SLHS wants the same
> curriculum as is offered at neighboring schools,
> then get rid of IB. Or make it a separate Academy
> within the same building so those students who
> want an IB Diploma could still go for it.

South Lakes has been told for so long that they are unique in the county, that they are so sadly special, that they actually believe it. Pathetic. One would think that they would have the ability to check the facts and interest enough in others to care about schools other than South Lakes. Unfortunately, neither seems to be the case.

Neen Wrote:
> ... Since FR
> currently has children at Woodson ...

----------
What is it with this thread this evening? OK - my LAST comment I wish to make on my identity: NO, I do NOT have children at Woodson.

OK? End of the game. Let's get back to SLHS and IB and redistricting.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mon Wrote:
> > My original point that has already been stated
> > once before... filling the
> > 700 empty seats at SL almost doubles the
> > opportunities for general ed and advance study
> > students... and will bring more life to our
> tiny
> > school... end result is bringing SL on par with
> > neighboring schools... how is that unreasonable
> > for us to desire for our children?
>
> Can you state ONE main thesis?
>
> - If it is that your school is 69% full, so is Mt
> Vernon, and Falls Church is even more empty.
>
> - If the problem is the size of the senior class,
> as of 30 Jan:
> Mt Vernon 303 seniors (216 students listed
> separately as Special Ed, all grades)
> Hayfield 303 seniors (139 Special Ed).
> Marshall 269 (130 Special Ed).
> SLHS 287 (plus 208 Special Ed).
> Falls Church 218 (182 Special Ed).
> I can give you FRM, ESOL, and and racial
> composition of these five schools, but I think
> most of us are trying to avoid making this an
> issue of race or class. My point of listing all
> these numbers is only to indicate that it is
> difficult to perceive a unique problem at SLHS.
>
> - If the problem is SLHS wants the same
> curriculum as is offered at neighboring schools,
> then get rid of IB. Or make it a separate Academy
> within the same building so those students who
> want an IB Diploma could still go for it.

I am still mystified with FCPS since they love academies..there are not very many IB high schools around the county here so they should have made these high schools have IB academies and then still have the AP curriculum. They are (IB schools) I would say ideally spread out geographically for these academies to work if that were to happen. There are plenty of ways to be creative instead using a redistricting and disrupting these families, how many times do I have to repeat this..the disruption of these very families. This whole process is just a sham.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> c'mon Wrote:
> > My original point that has already been stated
> > once before... filling the
> > 700 empty seats at SL almost doubles the
> > opportunities for general ed and advance study
> > students... and will bring more life to our
> tiny
> > school... end result is bringing SL on par with
> > neighboring schools... how is that unreasonable
> > for us to desire for our children?
>
> Can you state ONE main thesis?
>
> - If it is that your school is 69% full, so is Mt
> Vernon, and Falls Church is even more empty.
>
> - If the problem is the size of the senior class,
> as of 30 Jan:
> Mt Vernon 303 seniors (216 students listed
> separately as Special Ed, all grades)
> Hayfield 303 seniors (139 Special Ed).
> Marshall 269 (130 Special Ed).
> SLHS 287 (plus 208 Special Ed).
> Falls Church 218 (182 Special Ed).
> I can give you FRM, ESOL, and and racial
> composition of these five schools, but I think
> most of us are trying to avoid making this an
> issue of race or class. My point of listing all
> these numbers is only to indicate that it is
> difficult to perceive a unique problem at SLHS.
>
> - If the problem is SLHS wants the same
> curriculum as is offered at neighboring schools,
> then get rid of IB. Or make it a separate Academy
> within the same building so those students who
> want an IB Diploma could still go for it.


These schools all have their own set of unique issues... and no one has said that they won't be dealt with. I am sure that each is evaluating their current needs and possible solutions... and when an opportunity arises (such as did for SL) they will get their turn.

And no one at SL said they want the same curriculum as neighboring schools. That is an entirely other issue... and not for you to decide.

Well, I have wasted enough of my time on this forum. I was hoping to be able to offer some comfort to anyone who may be reading in search of some, but I see that this is more of a place for people to vent their anger and frustration than anything else.

Good luck to you all. (Don't bother responding because I won't be back to read it.)

Are you kidding me?
It was clear that the team needed some cougar milk! since the cougar moved next door.



John Stockton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what happened with the basketball team?
> The basketball team sucks right now, but it has
> potential and young talent.maybe next year!

c'mon Wrote:
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > Can you state ONE main thesis?
> >
> > - If it is that your school is 69% full, so is Mt
> > Vernon, and Falls Church is even more empty.
> >
> > - If the problem is the size of the senior class,
> > as of 30 Jan:
> > Mt Vernon 303 seniors (216 students listed
> > separately as Special Ed, all grades)
> > Hayfield 303 seniors (139 Special Ed).
> > Marshall 269 (130 Special Ed).
> > SLHS 287 (plus 208 Special Ed).
> > Falls Church 218 (182 Special Ed).
> > I can give you FRM, ESOL, and and racial
> > composition of these five schools, but I think
> > most of us are trying to avoid making this an
> > issue of race or class. My point of listing all
> > these numbers is only to indicate that it is
> > difficult to perceive a unique problem at SLHS. ...
> >
> These schools all have their own set of unique
> issues... and no one has said that they won't be
> dealt with. I am sure that each is evaluating
> their current needs and possible solutions... and
> when an opportunity arises (such as did for SL)
> they will get their turn.

--------------
Was the South Lakes "opportunity" its renovation?

Hayfield recently completed its renovation and Mt Vernon's was not long ago. Marshall is awaiting renovation but Falls Church is in good shape. All are adjacent to full or overfull schools.

What is different about South Lakes?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fish or Cut Bait Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That's exactly right, AP vs. IB, and at SL it is
> a
> > volunteer position, so no extra money spent
> there.
> > FR is a know-it-all who is so smart that she
> > can't even admit that her IB info may be out of
> > date or incorrect. Too bad for her. She is
> still
> > trapped in the Woodson glory days.
>
>
> Why are you so angry? Every IB school has an IB
> coordinator. It is not an volunteer position, it
> is a paid position. IB is dictated by the IB
> office in Europe. They decide how the program is
> run, not FCPS.
> http://www.ibo.org/council/
>
> When did Woodson lose its glory? Since FR
> currently has children at Woodson, you might want
> to inform her that Woodson's glory days are past.
> She and her children are not aware of the passing.

This was referring to the CAS position not the coordinator position. There had been a discussion on CAS and Forum Reader made a comment that I responded to, and then Fish followed up. We know the coordinator is paid, just like the AP coordinator's are paid.

Anti-Hone Wrote:
>
> OK - so not only is opposing RD based on the same
> principle as opposing torture, but the SB, the
> FCPS staff, and untold members of the public were
> engaged in a vast 3 year conspiracy? Was Navy
> part of this alleged 3 year conspiracy? Was
> Madison island part of this alleged 3 year
> conspiracy? Are you saying that if the staff's
> option 1, or option 2, or option 3, or option 4
> had been supported in the town-hall breakout
> sessions that the FCPS staff and SB would have
> ignored that and pulled out a cooked-up option 5
> regardless? There clearly was no conspiracy; no
> due process violation. The staff's logical
> progression from option 1 to option 5 was obvious
> for all who was involved - the anti-RD folks
> wanted nothing done, but that was not an option
> (rightly so), and thus the FCPS staff landed on a
> new option that basically met the RD goals but
> also reflected the anti-RD folks's "do nothing"
> message as well (by impacting the fewest
> students).

Most ridiculous post of the evening. Particularly the "impacting the fewest students" part. Outside of SL, the school MOST affected by this RD is Oakton, by a considerable margin, a school that had absolutely NO issues whatsoever. Other options in the original group of options did a better job of relieving the "overcrowding" of Westfields and Chantilly (which really doesn't exist anyway. Just ask the facilities director). Since SL, Chantilly, and Westfields were supposedly the targets of this RD, a scenario that keeps as much of the change limited to those schools as possible would have been a more logical choice.

Tweetie Bird Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see what Kiva means, SLPP. It does not matter
> that MMR kids from Oakton, Westfield, Herndon,
> Chantilly, and South Lakes all attend school at
> SL. The SL program actually has severely retarded
> children, and the teacher ratio is one to one for
> those students. Facts are inconvenient when they
> get in the way of a good (or bad) agenda.
>
> I asked Forum Reader if she is actually affected
> by this RD,and she won't respond, which tells me
> that my friend is correct about her Woodson
> affiliation. She is behaving disingenuously if
> she is in the Woodson pyramid.

Who cares what pyramid she's in? Why does it matter so much to you? Are you using it to intimidate the poster? Why?

MMR doesn't really mean mildly mentally retarded, it means severely mentally retarded? Who knew?

Perhaps you could tell us how many teachers work solely with the MMR (or should we call it the SMR?) at South Lakes? Is it like the Madison ED center with their own administrative staff, counselors, social workers and classes?

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fish or Cut Bait Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > That's exactly right, AP vs. IB, and at SL it
> is
> > a
> > > volunteer position, so no extra money spent
> > there.
> > > FR is a know-it-all who is so smart that she
> > > can't even admit that her IB info may be out
> of
> > > date or incorrect. Too bad for her. She is
> > still
> > > trapped in the Woodson glory days.
> >
> >
> > Why are you so angry? Every IB school has an
> IB
> > coordinator. It is not an volunteer position,
> it
> > is a paid position. IB is dictated by the IB
> > office in Europe. They decide how the program
> is
> > run, not FCPS.
> > http://www.ibo.org/council/
> >
> > When did Woodson lose its glory? Since FR
> > currently has children at Woodson, you might
> want
> > to inform her that Woodson's glory days are
> past.
> > She and her children are not aware of the
> passing.
>
> This was referring to the CAS position not the
> coordinator position. There had been a discussion
> on CAS and Forum Reader made a comment that I
> responded to, and then Fish followed up. We know
> the coordinator is paid, just like the AP
> coordinator's are paid.

Does every AP school require an AP coordinator? No, they don't. Does every IB school have an IB coordinator. Yes, they do.

Did you all see this little correction to the Post's article?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/01/AR2008030101618.html
It seems Stu didn't really mean to say that race was the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he meant to say socio economics. Hahahaha.......we all know what he said and what he meant. As Tina Hone said, only Stu and SL supporters talk about race.

I think the difference may be in the extent to which the IB and AP Coordinators in FCPS are expected to also teach. I've heard that IB Coordinators rarely if ever teach classes. At McLean HS, the AP Coordinator also teaches classes. Does anyone know about AP coordinators in other high schools?


Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does every AP school require an AP coordinator?
> No, they don't. Does every IB school have an IB
> coordinator. Yes, they do.

Just wondering if anyone knew the whole story behind high school boundaries in Fairfax County. For example how Langley and Oakton ended up with such long Boundaries stretching from East to West. I happened to be reading comments on a Washington Post story and someone commentted on how they remember when Fox Mill was upset about being sent to Oakton. Also what huge changes happened in the mid to late 1980's besides the creation of West Patomic and the merger of Jefferson and Annandale. Alot of people seem to mention huge boundary changes taking place at high schools durring that time, besides the creation of Centerville high school. Just wondering how that all changed things and where I could find info about it. thanks

In the mid 1980's all the high schools were closer in with many of them very close together. Madison and Oakton are 1.4 miles apart, closer if you are walking. The population was moving west, so the boundaries had to move West too. That's what I've been told, but I am sure others here have a more detail explanation.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Fish or Cut Bait Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > That's exactly right, AP vs. IB, and at SL
> it
> > is
> > > a
> > > > volunteer position, so no extra money spent
> > > there.
> > > > FR is a know-it-all who is so smart that
> she
> > > > can't even admit that her IB info may be
> out
> > of
> > > > date or incorrect. Too bad for her. She
> is
> > > still
> > > > trapped in the Woodson glory days.
> > >
> > >
> > > Why are you so angry? Every IB school has an
> > IB
> > > coordinator. It is not an volunteer
> position,
> > it
> > > is a paid position. IB is dictated by the IB
> > > office in Europe. They decide how the
> program
> > is
> > > run, not FCPS.
> > > http://www.ibo.org/council/
> > >
> > > When did Woodson lose its glory? Since FR
> > > currently has children at Woodson, you might
> > want
> > > to inform her that Woodson's glory days are
> > past.
> > > She and her children are not aware of the
> > passing.
> >
> > This was referring to the CAS position not the
> > coordinator position. There had been a
> discussion
> > on CAS and Forum Reader made a comment that I
> > responded to, and then Fish followed up. We
> know
> > the coordinator is paid, just like the AP
> > coordinator's are paid.
>
> Does every AP school require an AP coordinator?
> No, they don't. Does every IB school have an IB
> coordinator. Yes, they do.

Regardless, the initial post dealt with allegations the CAS person only handles "telling kids all about the lovely extracurriculars they can take." I pointed out that the CAS person at Stuart teaches fulltime, and simply collects forms/hours from students to make them part of the diploma candidate packet.

In FCPS, I believe all AP schools have AP coordinators. You are right that the College Board currently doesn't require that, but you would be surprised to find out that the College Board is replicating many aspects of the IB program with some new K-12 initiatives. One program in NY has a 6-12 model that replicates the MYP/IB diploma program in many ways, and the other is just focused more on the MYP aspect. These programs include coordinator type of positions. I will try to provide specific links later, but if you are interested just search in their K-12 section for new initiatives/programs.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> This was referring to the CAS position not the
> coordinator position.

-----------
To rephrase what I wrote earlier, "Creativity, Action, Service" (CAS) is usually the easiest part of IB for American students to complete: 150 hours of extracurricular activities spread over two years. [The CAS requirement is sometimes harder for European students to fulfill.]

My objection to IB CAS is the elitism, the extra resources given to the few, special, IB Diploma Candidates. The "SCHOOLS’ GUIDE TO THE DIPLOMA PROGRAMME" is that sixteen-page IB booklet contained within the 38-page "Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate Fact Book" from FCPS Instructional Services and dated February, 2008. From Page 7 of the Guide (page 29 of the FCPS "Fact Book"): "CAS is a fundamental part of the Diploma Programme experience.The CAS requirement takes seriously the importance of life outside the world of scholarship, providing a refreshing counterbalance to the academic self-absorption some may feel within a demanding school environment. ... Each school appoints a CAS supervisor who is responsible for providing a varied choice of activities for all Diploma Programme students. Programmes are monitored by IBO regional offices."

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if ALL our kids had a paid OR VOLUNTEER staff member appointed by the school to provide a few special students a variety of "refreshing" activities, and motivate them to do them, and track them for a nice little resume? A staff member who is "monitored" by an outside supervisor in New York, totally unrelated to FCPS or the Commonwealth of Virginia?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > This was referring to the CAS position not the
> > coordinator position.
>
> -----------
> To rephrase what I wrote earlier, "Creativity,
> Action, Service" (CAS) is usually the easiest part
> of IB for American students to complete: 150 hours
> of extracurricular activities spread over two
> years.
>
> My objection to IB CAS is the elitism, the extra
> resources given to the few, special, IB Diploma
> Candidates. The "SCHOOLS’ GUIDE TO THE DIPLOMA
> PROGRAMME" is that sixteen-page IB booklet
> contained within the 38-page "Advanced Placement
> and International Baccalaureate Fact Book" from
> FCPS Instructional Services and dated February,
> 2008. From Page 7 of the Guide (page 29 of the
> FCPS "Fact Book"): "CAS is a fundamental part of
> the Diploma Programme experience.The CAS
> requirement takes seriously the importance of life
> outside the world of scholarship, providing a
> refreshing counterbalance to the academic
> self-absorption some may feel within a demanding
> school environment. ... Each school appoints a CAS
> supervisor who is responsible for providing a
> varied choice of activities for all Diploma
> Programme students. Programmes are monitored by
> IBO regional offices."
>
> Gee, wouldn't it be nice if ALL our kids had a
> paid OR VOLUNTEER staff member appointed by the
> school to provide a few special students a variety
> of "refreshing" activities, and motivate them to
> do them, and track them for a nice little resume?
> A staff member who is "monitored" by an outside
> supervisor in New York, totally unrelated to FCPS
> or the Commonwealth of Virginia?

All of ours students actually do have such a person(s); the Student Activities Director, the Guidance department, and the Career Counselors.

FCPS made the decision, regardless of the IBO guidelines etc., not to waste resources, but have a fulltime teacher assist with CAS monitoring in addition to their regular duties.

Throwing out the term "elitism" is rather silly. And being sarcastic regarding, "nice little resume" is also not necessary. Everyone here seemingly thinks all their "little darlings"(might as well join you in the sarcasm arena) deserve so much more than the school they will be redistricted to. Elitism in my mind falls into thinking that because one bought in a certain area, one is deemed special privileges, "such as always being in a certain school disrict because my house is here.."

Questions regarding IB

Why do we have a foreign education program in the United States?

If this program is so good, how come it is not in all high schools here?

If this program is so good, why is it not in all foreign high schools?

Why do we allow the below board of governors to direct the IB program in the United States?

Do FCPS officials travel to foreign countries for meeting or instructions?





Page 1 © International Baccalaureate Organization 2008
Education committee
of the Board of Governors
Members for 2007-2008
Category Name Country
Members of the Board
Prof Eleri Jones (chair)
UK
Dr Indu Shahani
India
Heads of school and
Board members
Dr Albert Penna
USA
Mr Michael Matthews
Switzerland
Heads of school
Ms Lorna Prado
Chile
Mrs Katy Ricks
UK
Experts
Dr Rita Y.P. Chan
Hong Kong SAR, China
Dr Amal BouZeineddine
Lebanon
Ex officio, non-voting:
IB assessment director
Mr George Pook
UK
IB academic director
Ms Judith Fabian
UK
IB director general
Mr Jeffrey Beard
Switzerland
IB deputy director general
Dr Ian Hill
Switzerland
January 2008

It is a shame that the county will try to HIDE or MASK the poor performance of the students who currently attend SLHS by shipping other students to the school.

The bottom line is, those same students will continue to suffer underperformance until the feeder elementary and middle schools who feed SLHS get straightened out.

My niece attended Langston Middle. As a shy and quiet kid, was constantly harrassed by the black and hispanic students in the school. So much so that her parents picked up and moved to Loudoun County. There were numerous meetings with the teachers and administration, but they could not control the other students. There ARE gangs in these schools who bully and harass other kids whether you believe it or not. It starts BEFORE they even get to SLHS.

First, the redistricting is done so it is time to move on. Second, if the school board and system will get off their collective asses, they can make the situation at SOuth Lake work. Implement AP by year, ie 2008 - 9th grade; 2009 - 9 & 10 grade, etc. IB is a program. AP are courses. Some students take as many AP as they can fit in and some take them where their stengths lie. So lets make the best of the situation and quit crying.

Navy folks,

We live pretty close to FC Parkway and West Ox. It takes my child 25 minutes to drive to Oakton. She does not drive fast at all. If you are at Navy then it becomes a 20 minute drive.

On Saturdays or evenings without traffic it will be a 15 minute drive.
The kids know the short cuts and how to skirt traffic, very few take HW 66.

Yes, there have been a few alcohol incidences involving athletes and even a death and this has hurt the school reputation in the community. It is an awesome high school that is well balanced between academics, sports and social activities. The kids are well behaved and the vast majority are properly focused.

I understand the frustration of RD from your nearby high school but if you choose to go to Oakton you will be very happy and the commute is only a small hassle.

We don't get to move on. Our elementary school is split
between two high schools. Our middle school is split between
3 high schools ( 4 for the GT Center ). This split and division
is right here in the neighborhood, where students are still pupil
placed to Oakton from the previous redistricting. Next year buses
will come through for Westfield and South Lakes. Next year we will be
embroiled in the elementary school redistricting for Coppermine.
Will they split us along the same line? Unlikely, it would take
too many kids from Floris, so McNair will end up feeding South Lakes, Herndon, and Westfield.

We are stuck in this mess. We have no community school. We have no high school pyramid. Next time they want warm bodies, they will come for us leftovers.


Time to Move On Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, the redistricting is done so it is time to
> move on. Second, if the school board and system
> will get off their collective asses, they can make
> the situation at SOuth Lake work. Implement AP by
> year, ie 2008 - 9th grade; 2009 - 9 & 10 grade,
> etc. IB is a program. AP are courses. Some
> students take as many AP as they can fit in and
> some take them where their stengths lie. So lets
> make the best of the situation and quit crying.

Time to Move On Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, the redistricting is done so it is time to
> move on. Second, if the school board and system
> will get off their collective asses, they can make
> the situation at SOuth Lake work. Implement AP by
> year, ie 2008 - 9th grade; 2009 - 9 & 10 grade,
> etc. IB is a program. AP are courses. Some
> students take as many AP as they can fit in and
> some take them where their stengths lie. So lets
> make the best of the situation and quit crying.


Excuse me, but did you hear about the SB's decision at the last boundary hearing regarding the IB at SL? The IB is being locked in for 5 years. I do not see them making plans to remove IB anytime soon at SL.

BOTTOM LINE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a shame that the county will try to HIDE or
> MASK the poor performance of the students who
> currently attend SLHS by shipping other students
> to the school.
>
> The bottom line is, those same students will
> continue to suffer underperformance until the
> feeder elementary and middle schools who feed SLHS
> get straightened out.
>
> My niece attended Langston Middle. As a shy and
> quiet kid, was constantly harrassed by the black
> and hispanic students in the school. So much so
> that her parents picked up and moved to Loudoun
> County. There were numerous meetings with the
> teachers and administration, but they could not
> control the other students. There ARE gangs in
> these schools who bully and harass other kids
> whether you believe it or not. It starts BEFORE
> they even get to SLHS.


Totally agreed. As much as Gibson, the SB Hitler, tried hard to portrait SLHS as a greater school than TJ, people should not deny the fact that, SLHS has the highest fighting incidents in FCPS. A friend's kid attended SLHS two years ago, he was abused badly and could not get any help from the school administrator. It turned out that it motivated him to work extremely hard and got into TJ the next year. He told my friend, he would work hard as long as he could get out of SLHS. He was afraid of losing his life.
Also, during the public hearing, when Gibson made all the comparisons about how 1 out of n students in other HS and how 1 out of 7 students in SLHS are in poverty etc, he specifically excluded Lanley HS, the school with the least number of poverty students and the school that is 15% over capacity.
He tried to play the race card while he seemed to totally forget that his super rich white friends in Langley were being excluded from the RD. He wanted public to believe that, all pepole in Fox Mill, Madison, Florist are racist. He is in his 4th term and if he wants, with the rich white people on his back, and playing race card against the middle income class residents, he could continue to sit on the SB to control this corrupted process until someday, he dropped dead.
The poor kids in SLHS are fooled by Gibson thinking that he was helping them. They would not realize that, all Gibson did was helping SLHS to raise the test score so that the county official can feel good about themselves. and those underperformance kids will not get any help at all.
Gibson feels that he can bully anyone in the school board because he feels that no one in SB can challenge him. It's pitiful to see that, one of the SB membere claimed that, "even though there are flaws in this RD process, I would vote for it because I need to support my SB collegue". Come on, if Gibson is corrupted, does that mean that you are willing to support a corrupted memeber because he is your collegue? That's what makes Gibson a SB Hitler.
SLHS truly has issues and they need to be fixed. Sending warm bodies there to artificially raise the scores will not help. If Gibson is truly trying to do some good to SLHS, he should try to figure out what's wrong with it instead of playing politics.
My kids will attend Oakton and they are not affected by this RD. However, living in this county, I deeply worry that, someday, the same corrupted process will cause harm for them.

Curver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Navy folks,
>
>I understand the frustration of RD from your
> nearby high school but if you choose to go to
> Oakton you will be very happy and the commute is
> only a small hassle.


Don't tell me I will be "very happy" when you do not know my family situation and whether I will have children split between 2 schools.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > ... My objection to IB CAS is the elitism, the extra
> > resources given to the few, special, IB Diploma
> > Candidates. The "SCHOOLS’ GUIDE TO THE DIPLOMA
> > PROGRAMME" is that sixteen-page IB booklet
> > contained within the 38-page "Advanced Placement
> > and International Baccalaureate Fact Book" from
> > FCPS Instructional Services and dated February,
> > 2008. From Page 7 of the Guide (page 29 of the
> > FCPS "Fact Book"): " ... Each school appoints a CAS
> > supervisor who is responsible for providing a
> > varied choice of activities for all Diploma
> > Programme students. Programmes are monitored by
> > IBO regional offices."
> >
> > Gee, wouldn't it be nice if ALL our kids had a
> > paid OR VOLUNTEER staff member appointed by the
> > school to provide a few special students a variety
> > of "refreshing" activities, and motivate them to
> > do them, and track them for a nice little resume?
> > A staff member who is "monitored" by an outside
> > supervisor in New York, totally unrelated to FCPS
> > or the Commonwealth of Virginia?
>
> All of ours students actually do have such a
> person(s); the Student Activities Director, the
> Guidance department, and the Career Counselors.
>
> FCPS made the decision, regardless of the IBO
> guidelines etc., not to waste resources, but have
> a fulltime teacher assist with CAS monitoring in
> addition to their regular duties.
>
> Throwing out the term "elitism" is rather silly. ...

"Elitism" in the sense of some students are treated as being superior to others and deserve preeminence, preferential treatment, or higher rewards because of their superiority.

IB Diploma Graduates DESERVE the IB Diploma because they WORK for it. No problem.

Do you agree that IB Diploma Candidates comprise a small subgroup who are given special attention so their IB Diploma requirements can be fulfilled?

Do you agree that in addition to being provided three High Level and three Standard Level courses that other students may access, that the special requirements of IB Diploma Candidates include the Theory of Knowledge course and having a CAS Supervisor (with duties described in the FCPS/IB booklet) appointed - just for them?

At most FCPS high schools “the Student Activities Director, the Guidance department, and the Career Counselors” have too many students to provide this level of service (this "preferential treatment") to any special little (and what many would term "elite") subgroup.

----------

When you write, "FCPS made the decision, regardless of the IBO guidelines etc., not to waste resources," are you reporting FCPS is in violation of IBO guidelines? "Rules for IB World Schools: Diploma Programme" © International Baccalaureate Organization 2006, 2007:
Article 5: Responsibilities of schools ...
5.3 Schools must ensure that the Diploma Programme is properly funded, is effectively delivered and is administered according to the regulations and procedures of the IB Organization. ...
Article 10: Withdrawal of authorization
10.1. A school’s authorization to teach the Diploma Programme may be withdrawn if:
a. a school has breached any of its duties under these rules
b. the IB Organization is not satisfied that the school is implementing the programme according to the Programme standards and practices. ...

WestfieldMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We don't get to move on. Our elementary school is
> split
> between two high schools. Our middle school is
> split between
> 3 high schools ( 4 for the GT Center ). This
> split and division
> is right here in the neighborhood, where students
> are still pupil
> placed to Oakton from the previous redistricting.
> Next year buses
> will come through for Westfield and South Lakes.
> Next year we will be
> embroiled in the elementary school redistricting
> for Coppermine.
> Will they split us along the same line? Unlikely,
> it would take
> too many kids from Floris, so McNair will end up
> feeding South Lakes, Herndon, and Westfield.
>
> We are stuck in this mess. We have no community
> school. We have no high school pyramid. Next
> time they want warm bodies, they will come for us
> leftovers.

Along with the School Board's dilemma of crafting several mangled options prior to settling on a seriously flawed one (it couldn't be otherwise), you make an excellent case for the creation of a Rachel Carson High School. I know that one day we will see this happen, and then there'll be another major redistricting effort. That would be a good time to execute a county-wide study simultaneously.

I seriously doubt that the northeast quadrant of Floris will remain at South Lakes. It might take a few years, but it will eventually return to a pyramid with the rest of Floris. We in McNair will no doubt be joining you then, too.

SLHSFullofGangs Wrote:
> My kids will attend Oakton and they are not
> affected by this RD. ...

Of course they will be affected when so many of their classmates change and when the high school community changes. This does not mean Oakton will be "worse" for having Navy, but your kids WILL be affected.

"No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee."
--- John Donne

SLHSFullofGangs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BOTTOM LINE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is a shame that the county will try to HIDE
> or
> > MASK the poor performance of the students who
> > currently attend SLHS by shipping other
> students
> > to the school.
> >
> > The bottom line is, those same students will
> > continue to suffer underperformance until the
> > feeder elementary and middle schools who feed
> SLHS
> > get straightened out.
> >
> > My niece attended Langston Middle. As a shy
> and
> > quiet kid, was constantly harrassed by the
> black
> > and hispanic students in the school. So much
> so
> > that her parents picked up and moved to Loudoun
> > County. There were numerous meetings with the
> > teachers and administration, but they could not
> > control the other students. There ARE gangs in
> > these schools who bully and harass other kids
> > whether you believe it or not. It starts
> BEFORE
> > they even get to SLHS.
>
>
> Totally agreed. As much as Gibson, the SB Hitler,
> tried hard to portrait SLHS as a greater school
> than TJ, people should not deny the fact that,
> SLHS has the highest fighting incidents in FCPS. A
> friend's kid attended SLHS two years ago, he was
> abused badly and could not get any help from the
> school administrator. It turned out that it
> motivated him to work extremely hard and got into
> TJ the next year. He told my friend, he would work
> hard as long as he could get out of SLHS. He was
> afraid of losing his life.
> Also, during the public hearing, when Gibson made
> all the comparisons about how 1 out of n students
> in other HS and how 1 out of 7 students in SLHS
> are in poverty etc, he specifically excluded
> Lanley HS, the school with the least number of
> poverty students and the school that is 15% over
> capacity.
> He tried to play the race card while he seemed to
> totally forget that his super rich white friends
> in Langley were being excluded from the RD. He
> wanted public to believe that, all pepole in Fox
> Mill, Madison, Florist are racist. He is in his
> 4th term and if he wants, with the rich white
> people on his back, and playing race card against
> the middle income class residents, he could
> continue to sit on the SB to control this
> corrupted process until someday, he dropped dead.
>
> The poor kids in SLHS are fooled by Gibson
> thinking that he was helping them. They would not
> realize that, all Gibson did was helping SLHS to
> raise the test score so that the county official
> can feel good about themselves. and those
> underperformance kids will not get any help at
> all.
> Gibson feels that he can bully anyone in the
> school board because he feels that no one in SB
> can challenge him. It's pitiful to see that, one
> of the SB membere claimed that, "even though there
> are flaws in this RD process, I would vote for it
> because I need to support my SB collegue". Come
> on, if Gibson is corrupted, does that mean that
> you are willing to support a corrupted memeber
> because he is your collegue? That's what makes
> Gibson a SB Hitler.
> SLHS truly has issues and they need to be fixed.
> Sending warm bodies there to artificially raise
> the scores will not help. If Gibson is truly
> trying to do some good to SLHS, he should try to
> figure out what's wrong with it instead of playing
> politics.
> My kids will attend Oakton and they are not
> affected by this RD. However, living in this
> county, I deeply worry that, someday, the same
> corrupted process will cause harm for them.



You people just din't quit! Here we go again with the whole gang, safety, name calling, and I am surprised nobody has mentioned "metal detectors" - thus perpetuating the on-going misconceptions, rumours and hear-says.

At least, if you are going to disagree do so ina civil, rational manner.

There are many on both sides of the equation on this board who seem to be able to carry on a debate and/or dialogue without resorting to your kind of garbage.

If in fact, this incident and the one referred to above, have in fact happened, they appear to be isolated - and hard as it is for you hard to believe, isolated incidents like this happen in other schools and localities. Just take a look at some recent public examples involving Westfield. It does not make that school any worse, it just is that bad apples exist everywhere.

You must very angry, hateful and/or not too bright -

STOP WITH THIS GARBAGE - because that is what it is.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:
> > > ... My objection to IB CAS is the elitism, the
> extra
> > > resources given to the few, special, IB
> Diploma
> > > Candidates. The "SCHOOLS’ GUIDE TO THE
> DIPLOMA
> > > PROGRAMME" is that sixteen-page IB booklet
> > > contained within the 38-page "Advanced
> Placement
> > > and International Baccalaureate Fact Book"
> from
> > > FCPS Instructional Services and dated
> February,
> > > 2008. From Page 7 of the Guide (page 29 of
> the
> > > FCPS "Fact Book"): " ... Each school appoints
> a CAS
> > > supervisor who is responsible for providing a
> > > varied choice of activities for all Diploma
> > > Programme students. Programmes are monitored
> by
> > > IBO regional offices."
> > >
> > > Gee, wouldn't it be nice if ALL our kids had
> a
> > > paid OR VOLUNTEER staff member appointed by
> the
> > > school to provide a few special students a
> variety
> > > of "refreshing" activities, and motivate them
> to
> > > do them, and track them for a nice little
> resume?
> > > A staff member who is "monitored" by an
> outside
> > > supervisor in New York, totally unrelated to
> FCPS
> > > or the Commonwealth of Virginia?
> >
> > All of ours students actually do have such a
> > person(s); the Student Activities Director, the
> > Guidance department, and the Career Counselors.
> >
> > FCPS made the decision, regardless of the IBO
> > guidelines etc., not to waste resources, but
> have
> > a fulltime teacher assist with CAS monitoring
> in
> > addition to their regular duties.
> >
> > Throwing out the term "elitism" is rather silly.
> ...
>
> "Elitism" in the sense of some students are
> treated as being superior to others and deserve
> preeminence, preferential treatment, or higher
> rewards because of their superiority.
>
> IB Diploma Graduates DESERVE the IB Diploma
> because they WORK for it. No problem.
>
> Do you agree that IB Diploma Candidates comprise a
> small subgroup who are given special attention so
> their IB Diploma requirements can be fulfilled?
>
> Do you agree that in addition to being provided
> three High Level and three Standard Level courses
> that other students may access, that the special
> requirements of IB Diploma Candidates include the
> Theory of Knowledge course and having a CAS
> Supervisor (with duties described in the FCPS/IB
> booklet) appointed - just for them?
>
> At most FCPS high schools “the Student Activities
> Director, the Guidance department, and the Career
> Counselors” have too many students to provide this
> level of service (this "preferential treatment")
> to any special little (and what many would term
> "elite") subgroup.
>
> ----------
>
> When you write, "FCPS made the decision,
> regardless of the IBO guidelines etc., not to
> waste resources," are you reporting FCPS is in
> violation of IBO guidelines? "Rules for IB World
> Schools: Diploma Programme" © International
> Baccalaureate Organization 2006, 2007:
> Article 5: Responsibilities of schools ...
> 5.3 Schools must ensure that the Diploma Programme
> is properly funded, is effectively delivered and
> is administered according to the regulations and
> procedures of the IB Organization. ...
> Article 10: Withdrawal of authorization
> 10.1. A school’s authorization to teach the
> Diploma Programme may be withdrawn if:
> a. a school has breached any of its duties under
> these rules
> b. the IB Organization is not satisfied that the
> school is implementing the programme according to
> the Programme standards and practices. ...


I agree that IBO has a program. I disagree that it is elitist. Elitism as in "Elitism" in the sense of some students and families are
> viewed as being superior to others and deserve
> preeminence, preferential treatment, or higher
> rewards because of their superiority deemed upon them when they bought a house in a particular neighborhood." and whom will sue to get that elitist status enforced.

Here we go again - Even if the allegations are "garbage" - as you say - can you relate, if only anecdotally, that your own experiences and those of your peers have been safe? That would be more persuasive than the name calling.

And if your own experiences reflect that of safety, although a touchy subject, could you further opine that incidents of misconduct are largely confined to groups of kids more or less inclined to a negative lifestyle and that accordingly such events occur largely between and amongst such groups of kids? This of course doesn't make the incidents of misconduct any more or less justifiable, but it would give a better picture of what daily life is like for "regular" students committed to going to class and moving ahead. My guess is that by and large fears are overblown, but that at the same time, parents ought to be incredibly vigilant with the schools in avoiding bullying of their kids - incredibly so.

A response that is meaningful would indeed enhance credibility, even if it is tiring.

Here we go again Wrote:
>
> You people just din't quit! Here we go again with
> the whole gang, safety, name calling, and I am
> surprised nobody has mentioned "metal detectors" -
> thus perpetuating the on-going misconceptions,
> rumours and hear-says.
>

I do not know why people are upset about metal detectors at SL. Would people rather there were no detectors? I think it is a prudent way to protect the kids and teachers. So, I applaud the folks who support them.

Curver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Navy folks,
>
> We live pretty close to FC Parkway and West Ox. It
> takes my child 25 minutes to drive to Oakton. She
> does not drive fast at all. If you are at Navy
> then it becomes a 20 minute drive.
>
> On Saturdays or evenings without traffic it will
> be a 15 minute drive.
> The kids know the short cuts and how to skirt
> traffic, very few take HW 66.
>
> Yes, there have been a few alcohol incidences
> involving athletes and even a death and this has
> hurt the school reputation in the community. It is
> an awesome high school that is well balanced
> between academics, sports and social activities.
> The kids are well behaved and the vast majority
> are properly focused.
>
> I understand the frustration of RD from your
> nearby high school but if you choose to go to
> Oakton you will be very happy and the commute is
> only a small hassle.

Oakton is, as you say, a fine high school. Chantilly is also a very fine school, with great teachers, academics and sports teams. Had Kathy Smith shown any kind of leadership or political vision she would have looked elsewhere to remove students from Chantilly. It was easier for her to save face and vote with Stu.

What may be a small hassle to you may be a very LARGE hassle for Navy families. It's not a 20 minute drive from Navy anyway you go and it's not the 5-10 minute drive we had before.

Kathy Smith should resign. Her meddling, with no positive outcome for the students and constituents of the Sully District will follow her where ever she goes in the future.

I am wondering what socio-economic effects are going to result from this RD vis-a-vis CHS and OHS. Don't know the stats but Fair Oaks Estates and Century Oaks are pretty high-income areas. If you take them out of Chantilly and put them in Oakton, you are making an already low FRM school even more stacked. And there is a large pack of GTC students in that region and TJ cannot accomodate all of those "bubble" year students, so they will end up further improving Oakton's test scores.

That is going to impact Chantilly also, and since it's not overcrowded, I'm wondering if Chantilly's principal is happy about losing the Navy students.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> ... "Elitism" in the
> sense of some students and families are
> > viewed as being superior to others and deserve
> > preeminence, preferential treatment, or higher
> > rewards because of their superiority deemed upon
> them when they bought a house in a particular
> neighborhood." and whom will sue to get that
> elitist status enforced.

----------------------
Are you claiming that staying in another school is preferential to and a higher reward than attending South Lakes?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > ... "Elitism" in the
> > sense of some students and families are
> > > viewed as being superior to others and
> deserve
> > > preeminence, preferential treatment, or
> higher
> > > rewards because of their superiority deemed
> upon
> > them when they bought a house in a particular
> > neighborhood." and whom will sue to get that
> > elitist status enforced.
>
> ----------------------
> Are you claiming that staying in another school is
> preferential to and a higher reward than attending
> South Lakes?


LOL. You know I am referring to the attitude of some posters who discussed planning years ahead where their kid would go to school based on their home purchase and alluding to others not doing the same as somehow having inefficient parenting skills, and some posters claim that their housing values would go down. But, I give my hat off to you for your creativity in twisting my words.

Get on with your lives, especially you who have redistricting and IB/AP OCD. Don't you have better things to do with your time? Go take a walk, enjoy the spring, read a book, whatever.

This is the thread that goes on and on my friend.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here we go again - Even if the allegations are
> "garbage" - as you say - can you relate, if only
> anecdotally, that your own experiences and those
> of your peers have been safe? That would be more
> persuasive than the name calling.
>
> And if your own experiences reflect that of
> safety, although a touchy subject, could you
> further opine that incidents of misconduct are
> largely confined to groups of kids more or less
> inclined to a negative lifestyle and that
> accordingly such events occur largely between and
> amongst such groups of kids? This of course
> doesn't make the incidents of misconduct any more
> or less justifiable, but it would give a better
> picture of what daily life is like for "regular"
> students committed to going to class and moving
> ahead. My guess is that by and large fears are
> overblown, but that at the same time, parents
> ought to be incredibly vigilant with the schools
> in avoiding bullying of their kids - incredibly
> so.
>
> A response that is meaningful would indeed enhance
> credibility, even if it is tiring.


Just to be clear "garbage" was related to the name calling, and the continuance of comments like

"He tried to play the race card while he seemed to totally forget that his super rich white friends..and the rest of that paragraph"

"That's what makes Gibson a SB Hitler"

"There ARE gangs in these schools who bully and harass other kids
whether you believe it or not. It starts BEFORE they even get to SLHS"

Even the posting name "SLHSFullofGangs"

I object to this and I am tired of it going on and on. They are derogatory to the 95%+ (or maybe more) of kids (and parents in these schools) who are decent, hard-working people, many of whom are no different than you and I. Furthermore, it would totally shock me if pockets of "problems" do not exist in any other FCPS school.

I don't believe that continuing to denigrate SL or Hughes will sove anything for anyone.

You and I disagree on many things, but in contrast, your arguments and tone are civil and respectful.

As an example I quote you:

My guess is that by and large fears are overblown, but that at the same time, parents ought to be incredibly vigilant with the schools in avoiding bullying of their kids - incredibly so.

I am fine with your commentary, and I am fine with agreeing to disagree with you and others on this board. This is what my main beef is -the (lack of) civility.

With respect to the safety record both at Hughes and SL, I am sure that incidents exist. Whether there are more of them and more serious than others schools, that I cannot tell you.

What I can tell is that with an older daughter going to SL and formerly of Hughes, and with a younger sibling at Hughes, I for one, have not seen any evidence that would suggest that either one of those schools are any less safe than for my kids going to Town Center or the mall. And I have, at least, not to-date worried about either child's safety in the several years that oneo fmy kids has been in one of these schools. I believe this is also true of most of our neighbours who have had and have kids in both of these schools.

Regards.

would everyone stop making up things, and stop pushing their own agendas. You need to look at the whole picture and stop throwing words out there like Eliteism and Hitler. IB is used at top ranking international schools around the world, so don't say its a foriegn program being pushed in the US. It was developed as a degree program for children who moved around the world i.e. world bank children or children of diplomats, so they could obtain a degree and be considered for admission at universities around the world. IB can work, but for students here who want to remain just here AP may be better, so IB just can't be forced. But at the same time people can't be writing about their kids being "attacked by black and hispanics", you can tell its not true, even if one incident happened, it has happened at so called better schools as well, with attackers being white, Mclean, West feild, and to top it off the teacher at Chantilly was arrested. We all know there are not metal detectors at South Lakes, so why does one feel the need to make things like that up ? If you against a school thats fine just don't make things up because it will make a bad situation worse. For those who pushed areas for South Lakes, why didn't you buy a house in RESTON ? and be like all those who bought houses to attend oakton.

metal detectors Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here we go again Wrote:
> >
> > You people just din't quit! Here we go again
> with
> > the whole gang, safety, name calling, and I am
> > surprised nobody has mentioned "metal detectors"
> -
> > thus perpetuating the on-going misconceptions,
> > rumours and hear-says.
> >
>
> I do not know why people are upset about metal
> detectors at SL. Would people rather there were
> no detectors? I think it is a prudent way to
> protect the kids and teachers. So, I applaud the
> folks who support them.


I will take at face value your sincerity, BUT, metal detectors are no more necessary at SL, than at any other FCPS school, in this person's opinion. And the mere mention of whether a school should have them or not, immediately, creates a false perception - that continues to focus the debate and energy on dispelling myths rather than what the core issues are.

I have observed since page 73 that silly trolls pop up from time to time - that will not end. Some are obvious, others more subtle, nonetheless let us just agree not to feed them.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have observed since page 73 that silly trolls
> pop up from time to time - that will not end. Some
> are obvious, others more subtle, nonetheless let
> us just agree not to feed them.



Now that is one piece of solid advice.

There is SOMETHING that all can agree on except for the silly trolls. LOL

AP vs IB Wrote:
> LOL. You know I am referring to the attitude of
> some posters who discussed planning years ahead
> where their kid would go to school based on their
> home purchase and alluding to others not doing the
> same as somehow having inefficient parenting
> skills, and some posters claim that their housing
> values would go down. But, I give my hat off to
> you for your creativity in twisting my words.

I am happy that you and I are still on speaking (make that typing) terms.

1) Do you agree that IB Diploma Candidates comprise a small subgroup who are given special attention so their IB Diploma requirements can be fulfilled?

2) Do you agree that in addition to being provided three High Level and three Standard Level courses that other students may access, that the requirements of IB Diploma Candidates include the Theory of Knowledge course and having a CAS Supervisor (with duties as described in the FCPS/IB booklet) appointed - just for them?

3) Do you claim that FCPS is in violation of the written IBO rules and regulations on the proper staffing of the IB Diploma Programme?

4) I do not view "elite" (elite sports teams, elite Harvard University) as a gratuitous insult. My dictionary in part defines the word "elite" as a small group that is treated as being superior to others and who receive preeminence, preferential treatment, and higher rewards because of their superiority. Do you have another word you prefer to use to describe IB Diploma Candidates?

5) Who do YOU see as "elite"? Those who "discussed planning years ahead where their kid would go to school based on their home purchase"? Is every one of us who decided to live in Fairfax County, in part because of the school system, part of The Elite?

Here we go again Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will take at face value your sincerity, BUT,
> metal detectors are no more necessary at SL, than
> at any other FCPS school, in this person's
> opinion. And the mere mention of whether a school
> should have them or not, immediately, creates a
> false perception - that continues to focus the
> debate and energy on dispelling myths rather than
> what the core issues are.

And what do you think are the core issues?

mr e Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> would everyone stop making up things, and stop
> pushing their own agendas. You need to look at the
> whole picture and stop throwing words out there
> like Eliteism and Hitler. IB is used at top
> ranking international schools around the world, so
> don't say its a foriegn program being pushed in
> the US. It was developed as a degree program for
> children who moved around the world i.e. world
> bank children or children of diplomats, so they
> could obtain a degree and be considered for
> admission at universities around the world. IB can
> work, but for students here who want to remain
> just here AP may be better, so IB just can't be
> forced. But at the same time people can't be
> writing about their kids being "attacked by black
> and hispanics", you can tell its not true, even if
> one incident happened, it has happened at so
> called better schools as well, with attackers
> being white, Mclean, West feild, and to top it off
> the teacher at Chantilly was arrested. We all know
> there are not metal detectors at South Lakes, so
> why does one feel the need to make things like
> that up ? If you against a school thats fine just
> don't make things up because it will make a bad
> situation worse. For those who pushed areas for
> South Lakes, why didn't you buy a house in RESTON
> ? and be like all those who bought houses to
> attend oakton.


Taking your last sentence, that is a very good question. I think it's what amazes some of us. Why would people who bought a house in (what was) the Oakton district then lobby to change that neighborhood to SL? If they like SL so much, they either could have bought a house there in the first place or they could pupil place.

I hope that people will ask that. When I asked the question months ago to the few people I knew who said they were in favor of RD,(not that I claim to have talked to everyone) they said, "With all the Fox Mill/Floris/Crossfield kids going there, it will be a different school." (early on some people believed that nearly 200 kids a year would be moved, all nice middle class kids) Take that for what it's worth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2008 11:40AM by fm/c/o parent.

Here we go again - there is no need to respond to hyperbolic comments -I would have some faith that competent people will see them as what they are - although mentioning that they are hyperbolic or even ridiculous in a polite way every so often might be helpful. And I find your own comments helpful (and they square with my intuition about the school, knowing a few of the school's top athletes in the past years), but am a bit perplexed why you simply didn't just make these kinds of statements in the first instance. We are talking merely about school choice here - people are only as emotionally besieged as they permit themselves and when and let others dominate their analytic thinking.

As far as the Navy redistricting goes, I am sure it is an inconvenience to many and disrupting. Each family has its own gripe to a varying degree - not sure that any one poster can rightfully tell someone how to feel.

Inasmuch as the shibboleth has been to spread lower income and challenging kids across a greater number of schools, the Navy move is really, well, let's say, curious, inasmuch as it is a place chock full of 800k to 1M dollar homes (you runners out there should know to run in the streets of the neighborhoods just south and west of the Navy school when snow and ice are on the trails - there is virtually no traffic in those palatial McMansion environs, yet the streets are plowed). One never really can discern cause and effect when it comes to the mind of politicians, but it has all the hallmarks of a move Machiavelli would be proud of: i) Oakton continues or slightly improves its status, contributing to the always important (but largely meaningless) brag factor for the FCPS; ii) insofar as it works to limit Oakton pupil spots, it gives rise to the appearance that pupil placement from Fox Mill and Floris will be more difficult or less possible - exactly what the pols wanted to force in terms of student movement; and iii) it appears to "punish" a constituency, particularly those in Fox Mill, that voted against Mr. Gibson. Now, I am not sure that this conjecture gets anyone anywhere, but at least it lets us know that the politics here are no less Byzantine than those found in tough cities like Chicago or Philadelphia - and that hard realism and a very healthy sense of skepticism should always prevail in dealings with the bureaucracy. It is a shame, though, because a mere allocation of students or any form of rent seeking grab will not improve the lot of the students that need help most.

Everyone :- Mr Gibson has just passed a ruling that this thread be shut down and all traces of this thread be deleted from the internet. Violators of this order will be sent to indoctrination camps in Siberia. Brad Center supports the decision, saying that is not the right of ffx cnty residents to discuss school matters. Only SB members can discuss school matters such as AP/IB and that too after Mr. Stu Gibson approves of the topic. And of course discussion will be limited to only those points that support Mr Gibson position. Mr Storck will shut down anyone that dares to speak otherwise.

....
....
....
....

Ok just kidding. LOL - But really - the SB has 10 solid votes 10 to 2 and the elections are in 2011 - so there is nothing we can do till then.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here we go again - there is no need to respond to
> hyperbolic comments -I would have some faith that
> competent people will see them as what they are -
> although mentioning that they are hyperbolic or
> even ridiculous in a polite way every so often
> might be helpful. And I find your own comments
> helpful (and they square with my intuition about
> the school, knowing a few of the school's top
> athletes in the past years), but am a bit
> perplexed why you simply didn't just make these
> kinds of statements in the first instance. We are
> talking merely about school choice here - people
> are only as emotionally besieged as they permit
> themselves and when and let others dominate their
> analytic thinking.
>
> As far as the Navy redistricting goes, I am sure
> it is an inconvenience to many and disrupting.
> Each family has its own gripe to a varying degree
> - not sure that any one poster can rightfully tell
> someone how to feel.
>
> Inasmuch as the shibboleth has been to spread
> lower income and challenging kids across a greater
> number of schools, the Navy move is really, well,
> let's say, curious, inasmuch as it is a place
> chock full of 800k to 1M dollar homes (you runners
> out there should know to run in the streets of the
> neighborhoods just south and west of the Navy
> school when snow and ice are on the trails - there
> is virtually no traffic in those palatial
> McMansion environs, yet the streets are plowed).
> One never really can discern cause and effect when
> it comes to the mind of politicians, but it has
> all the hallmarks of a move Machiavelli would be
> proud of: i) Oakton continues or slightly
> improves its status, contributing to the always
> important (but largely meaningless) brag factor
> for the FCPS; ii) insofar as it works to limit
> Oakton pupil spots, it gives rise to the
> appearance that pupil placement from Fox Mill and
> Floris will be more difficult or less possible -
> exactly what the pols wanted to force in terms of
> student movement; and iii) it appears to "punish"
> a constituency, particularly those in Fox Mill,
> that voted against Mr. Gibson. Now, I am not
> sure that this conjecture gets anyone anywhere,
> but at least it lets us know that the politics
> here are no less Byzantine than those found in
> tough cities like Chicago or Philadelphia - and
> that hard realism and a very healthy sense of
> skepticism should always prevail in dealings with
> the bureaucracy. It is a shame, though, because
> a mere allocation of students or any form of rent
> seeking grab will not improve the lot of the
> students that need help most.


Point taken. Regards.

I've been taking a look in here once in awhile for a few weeks. Nothing has changed for 250 pages. Same group of people griping about the same things, nobody at all having given an inch.

I can only say that the secret plan worked! You have spent hundreds of hours spinning your wheels HERE instead of figuring out how to get on with your lives in the REAL world. You have no idea how students like me (I'm not at South Lakes, BTW but at lunch so don't worry, I'm "legally" posting) find it hilarious that you adults are more cyber-OCD'd than any kid could ever be.

It remains clear that there are still after all this time only about a dozen of you with angst about South Lakes, and at least three of those are outside the entire boundary process. Please do everyone a big favor, Get those pupil-placement forms in ASAP.

Anyone out there know approximately what the capacity will be for Coppermine ES? Thanks in advance.

Here's a question for SL people. Regarding people affected bythis or who at some point thought they might be affected by this, people who live outside the previous SL area: does it come across to you that some or most of those people think they care more about their children's education than you do?

I think if I were in your shoes and someone said, "I don't want to go to SL because I care about my children's education," that would really grate on me. Now, having said that, I'm sure you know that many anti-RD people specifically selected houses in areas where they like the schools. Whether they were avoiding SL at that time isn't important, because one could say they were also avoiding any other school besides the ones their children would attend. I live in the (former) Oakton district, but it was more for a pro-Oakton reason than an anti-SL reason. Still, I choose a neighborhood where I was comfortable with the schools. I'm sure you did the same. None of the schools is perfect, but we chose what we thought would work for us. I'm sorry if some of our comments in support of our schools and our concern for our kids comes across as implying that you care less. I guess it could be said that you put less stock in test results as an indicator of school quality, or you either like IB or didn't really have an opinion about it when you picked your house. That's not the same as not caring abouat yoru kids. Anyway, a lot of us are still hoping that our kids can attend their original schools, no offense to you, and please know that in general we don't want to be "against" you, or at least not against the ones that can have a non-hysterical exchange about it w/o calling us names (bigots, racists, we aren't going to forget that...)

A lot of us are against the SB, but SL folks are mostly okay to me.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> 1) Do you agree that IB Diploma Candidates
> comprise a small subgroup who are given special
> attention so their IB Diploma requirements can be
> fulfilled?
Thus far my older son has met with the coordinator two or three times. Once at the end of his sophomore year to see if he was interested in the program. Then at the begining of the this year (11th) there was a group meeting where all 75-90 some juniors considering diploma (some were absent, hard to judge number) were given binders explaining various aspects. And recently, for the third time, to go over the extended essay. They will turn in a draft of this in October. I imagine there are many meetings with the seniors too. I believe the coordinator assists IB teachers too. Whether this constitutes special treatment that shouldn't be given since it isn't the whole junior class (though he did meet with the whole class when they were sophomores), I can't say. It is what it is. The program existed when we started HS. My oldest is attempting the full sha-bang, and my youngest decided to take only 3 or 4 IB classes when he is a junior.
>
> 2) Do you agree that in addition to being provided
> three High Level and three Standard Level courses
> that other students may access, that the
> requirements of IB Diploma Candidates include the
> Theory of Knowledge course and having a CAS
> Supervisor (with duties as described in the
> FCPS/IB booklet) appointed - just for them?
>
> 3) Do you claim that FCPS is in violation of the
> written IBO rules and regulations on the proper
> staffing of the IB Diploma Programme?

For 2 and 3 I can't speak to what FCPS decided to do, nor can I say that IBO doesn't know about what they have chosen in terms of the person in charge of CAS. It is essentially a paper management position. My son hasn't met with him to look at extracurricular's or volunteer opportunities etc. The TOK teacher, I believe, teaches other subjects too. All students by the way can enroll in TOK, not just diploma candidates.
>
> 4) I do not view "elite" (elite sports teams,
> elite Harvard University) as a gratuitous insult.
> My dictionary in part defines the word "elite" as
> a small group that is treated as being superior to
> others and who receive preeminence, preferential
> treatment, and higher rewards because of their
> superiority. Do you have another word you prefer
> to use to describe IB Diploma Candidates?

Yes, IB Diploma Candidates. They are not treated as being superior or anything else along those lines. Students who do well on debate, cross country, football, music, drama etc., are announced during announcements and given deserved recognition for various endeavors and accomplishments. No such thing exists for diploma candidates. Why would it? Superior isn't a word I would associate with them either. They are simply kids taking the courses required, and doing the activities required as part of the diploma program, but none of them view themselves as superior, nor does anyone in the building treat them as such.
>
> 5) Who do YOU see as "elite"? Those who "discussed
> planning years ahead where their kid would go to
> school based on their home purchase"? Is every one
> of us who decided to live in Fairfax County, in
> part because of the school system, part of The
> Elite?

I was using the term elite to get a rise, and to show how it can be abused. I don't see anyone in our schools as being particularly elite, aside from TJ perhaps if you are looking at the definition as one would Harvard and the like.

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a question for SL people. Regarding people
> affected bythis or who at some point thought they
> might be affected by this, people who live outside
> the previous SL area: does it come across to you
> that some or most of those people think they care
> more about their children's education than you do?
>
>
> I think if I were in your shoes and someone said,
> "I don't want to go to SL because I care about my
> children's education," that would really grate on
> me. Now, having said that, I'm sure you know that
> many anti-RD people specifically selected houses
> in areas where they like the schools. Whether they
> were avoiding SL at that time isn't important,
> because one could say they were also avoiding any
> other school besides the ones their children would
> attend. I live in the (former) Oakton district,
> but it was more for a pro-Oakton reason than an
> anti-SL reason. Still, I choose a neighborhood
> where I was comfortable with the schools. I'm sure
> you did the same. None of the schools is perfect,
> but we chose what we thought would work for us.
> I'm sorry if some of our comments in support of
> our schools and our concern for our kids comes
> across as implying that you care less. I guess it
> could be said that you put less stock in test
> results as an indicator of school quality, or you
> either like IB or didn't really have an opinion
> about it when you picked your house. That's not
> the same as not caring abouat yoru kids. Anyway, a
> lot of us are still hoping that our kids can
> attend their original schools, no offense to you,
> and please know that in general we don't want to
> be "against" you, or at least not against the ones
> that can have a non-hysterical exchange about it
> w/o calling us names (bigots, racists, we aren't
> going to forget that...)
>
> A lot of us are against the SB, but SL folks are
> mostly okay to me.


Reasonable question - I'll take a swing at it as a future SL parent. It is annoying to hear the chorus of "we care more" or "we were smarter" as to where someone buys their home. I don't let it bother me like some do, but it makes it hard to work with others when that is how the argument is framed. I have said before, I wanted Langley in the study, I was open to a magnet solution, and I want AP. But hearing the constant barrage of attacks on Reston and SL caused hard feelings on this side of the discussion. As for the caring and smarter points, they ignore a few things from my perspective:

1) I just have a lot of confidence in my kids. I am blessed with three very bright children, and they will do well at most schools. We wanted to be in Hunters Woods (Magnet and GT), and are happy with that decision. People can say they care more, but I can't imagine caring or believing in my kids anymore - they are everything to me.

2) People can't claim they were so smart and did their homework, but then act so naive when they didn't realize that boundary changes do happen in Fairfax County. If they had ever taken the time to look at the map, would have assessed the risk of being moved. Bottom line, the farther your house is from a school, the higher the chance your neighborhood will be changed.

There is no doubt that the SB handled this poorly - both making the case for the need to change and addressing any concerns about SL. I would also submit that those opposed did not handle it well either. You can't rip Stu (see the various comments like "evil") or the board collectively and then expect them to support your view. That is not how things work. If a more constructive tone was taken, there may have been more give and take (Ex. Navy or Madison Island votes were only one short of passing). I don't doubt the anger is real, but that doesn't mean that showing it full force is the way to go. A very convincing argument could have been made that families want to remain at their existing schools without the insults or dragging SL through the mud. Once that occurred, there was little room for the SB to go - they can't admit that a school is so bad no one should go there, and they clearly know you didn't vote for them in the first place.

Although I was for the RD, I did not celebrate when it happened. It gives me no joy when people who live just down the street from me (same churches, stores, I coach their kids in sports leagues) are upset and want nothing to do with the local school.

I have enjoyed posting on this board, but this is it for me. Good luck to those who want to place out and welcome to the new families of SL.

Hootribe: You sound like a very nice lady but I've got to comment on your post. With all due respect, your situation is not the same as ours. You researched the schools and (I'm sure) the housing prices and locations, and then you bought a house in the SLHS boundary. And your expectation is that your bright, loved children will go to HWES/LHMS/SLHS.

Well, I did the exact thing except for I can't really write that my three children are very bright and will do well anywhere without gagging slightly -- sorry just a personality difference. And now I am being forced to split my kids into different high schools, drive an hour to Oakton to attend/pick up my rising eighth-grader, and contribute to two different high schools.

And Oakton parents are now forced to accept a different academic curriculum and school than they expected when they bought their houses in the Oakton district.

So anyhew, I really don't think you can compare your issues to what we are going through because YOU don't have to change high schools. I'm sorry, but your experience (of being slandered I guess) is just not equivalent.

I can't believe you would compare your offended sensibility with those Navy parents who now have an increased commute and split siblings. Or the Floris parents who have been unable to have any sort of stability in their school boundaries and curriculum. Or the Fox Mill ES parents who have to switch schools and programs and split siblings.

I'm sorry, like I said I think you are a nice lady, just a little insensitive to the redistricted families. It didn't sound any different than being told to quit whining and just do what we're told or to make lemonade out of the lemons we were just handed.

The SL people will never understand our pain. Also as long as they associate themselves with Stu Gibson, they are going to suffer with an inferior school. Stu Gibson has destroyed SL by bringing IB program.

Most of us live a little bit beyond Navy, so we are back to the 25 minute drive. Factor in taking a bus and we are at a minimum, 30 minutes. Plus, our piik up time will be aobut 6:15 vs. 6:50 for Chantilly. How about the commute home after practices during rush hour? I have friends who do it now and they live a little closer to Oakton and it takes them 45 minutes to get home. You also can not deny the higher than average prescription drug use from your students. And I have to tell you, your principals behavior with shooting a cougar and bragging about that and how he is going to display it at your school is disgusting and not the type of leader I wish for my children. We love Chantilly and prefer Chantilly for the sense of community, academics, athletics and the better quality of life when we are so close to our great school.


Curver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Navy folks,
>
> We live pretty close to FC Parkway and West Ox. It
> takes my child 25 minutes to drive to Oakton. She
> does not drive fast at all. If you are at Navy
> then it becomes a 20 minute drive.
>
> On Saturdays or evenings without traffic it will
> be a 15 minute drive.
> The kids know the short cuts and how to skirt
> traffic, very few take HW 66.
>
> Yes, there have been a few alcohol incidences
> involving athletes and even a death and this has
> hurt the school reputation in the community. It is
> an awesome high school that is well balanced
> between academics, sports and social activities.
> The kids are well behaved and the vast majority
> are properly focused.
>
> I understand the frustration of RD from your
> nearby high school but if you choose to go to
> Oakton you will be very happy and the commute is
> only a small hassle.