Clown Shoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We need to get 15 soccer Mom's with only high
> school educations together and have them formulate
> a new plan for the entire Fairfax County School
> system.

With apologies to William Buckley and the Boston phone directory, I would take the 15 soccer moms over Stuart Gibson and Jane Strauss in a heartbeat.

Boundary Warrior Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> > There is a committee. It doesn't have much momentum yet,< <

What does that mean?

> > but if, as you allege, the pro-IB people didn't want the committee, they failed< <

Not if the committee rarely meets or just goes through the motions and ratifies the existing condition.

> > and there a number of people who signed up who are very interested in exploring AP as a supplement to IB, or a return to AP to replace IB. Those are the facts. Have a real discussion on that.< <

Those aren't facts. Those may be opinions. They may also be rumors. They may be innuendo, Not much to discuss.

Can a committee be a committee if a committee has never met, communicated with one another, had any communication from the chair or defined goals or anything else of the sort?

What I am hearing is that their intent is to form a committee, but if nothing else has been done other than an announcement to PTAs and people signing up, what does this really amount to?



Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boundary Warrior Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > There is a committee. It doesn't have much
> momentum yet,< <
>
> What does that mean?
>
> > > but if, as you allege, the pro-IB people
> didn't want the committee, they failed< <
>
> Not if the committee rarely meets or just goes
> through the motions and ratifies the existing
> condition.
>
> > > and there a number of people who signed up who
> are very interested in exploring AP as a
> supplement to IB, or a return to AP to replace IB.
> Those are the facts. Have a real discussion on
> that.< <
>
> Those aren't facts. Those may be opinions. They
> may also be rumors. They may be innuendo, Not
> much to discuss.

Stu Gibson will never let IB go away from SL. All this talk about curriculum changes is BS. It was used as a talking point during RD. Now the RD is over and that talking point is gone. To get rid of IB, first get rid of Stu Gibson from the SB

Glade Pool Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can a committee be a committee if a committee has
> never met, communicated with one another, had any
> communication from the chair or defined goals or
> anything else of the sort?
>
> What I am hearing is that their intent is to form
> a committee, but if nothing else has been done
> other than an announcement to PTAs and people
> signing up, what does this really amount to?
>
>
>
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Boundary Warrior Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > ----
> > > > There is a committee. It doesn't have much
> > momentum yet,< <
> >
> > What does that mean?
> >
> > > > but if, as you allege, the pro-IB people
> > didn't want the committee, they failed< <
> >
> > Not if the committee rarely meets or just goes
> > through the motions and ratifies the existing
> > condition.
> >
> > > > and there a number of people who signed up
> who
> > are very interested in exploring AP as a
> > supplement to IB, or a return to AP to replace
> IB.
> > Those are the facts. Have a real discussion on
> > that.< <
> >
> > Those aren't facts. Those may be opinions.
> They
> > may also be rumors. They may be innuendo, Not
> > much to discuss.

I thought I read that Montgomery County schools was bringing IB to 2 of their high schools-I will chack it out.

It will be interesting to see if the parents oppose IB like they do here.

I think parents associate IB as bad because it happens to be in the weaker schools. I don't think there is a relationship.

I just read an interesting article that deals with the lawsuit. Rather than simply give my perspective on the article (as some choose to do:-) I am linking it here: http://commapps.fcps.edu/eclips/detail.cfm?ItemID=16004

IB in MOCO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought I read that Montgomery County schools
> was bringing IB to 2 of their high schools-I will
> chack it out.
>
> It will be interesting to see if the parents
> oppose IB like they do here.
>
> I think parents associate IB as bad because it
> happens to be in the weaker schools. I don't
> think there is a relationship.

Some schools have it in Montco . Parents pay the $123 fee and test fees. I've read in FX IB standrad level gets a .5 bump on GPA and they run regualr ed, standard, and higher level. AP schools do not have 3 levels of instruction. No bump unless AP. Is this true? If so it should be changed to no exra .5 for standard level.

IB directly co relates to poor performing schools in FCPS. You dont have to have a math degree to figure that out on fcps website.


IB in MOCO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought I read that Montgomery County schools
> was bringing IB to 2 of their high schools-I will
> chack it out.
>
> It will be interesting to see if the parents
> oppose IB like they do here.
>
> I think parents associate IB as bad because it
> happens to be in the weaker schools. I don't
> think there is a relationship.

The son of a friend just graduated from Marshall with a full physics scholarship to an excellent school. IB diploma candidate, one of more than 75. BUT the top students (honors or 4.0+) were NOT diploma candidates!

South Lakes now has a principal on par with Jay Pearson at Marshall. Marshall, with similar demographics to South Lakes, is doing an absolutely fantastic job of getting more kids involved in and succeeding in academics - the IB program is benefitting ALL the students there, not just those who take IB courses or go for the certificate or the diploma. Kids who never would have considered going on to college are doing just that. That has been happening at South Lakes over the last three years.

IB is here to stay, and is growing in the US at a greater-than 10% per year rate. This is a program that is going to take over the monopolistic stranglehold AP has - because it is better at preparing kids not just for college, but of lifelong learning. College professors support it; they frequently state that IB students are better prepared for their classes than AP students are. Any kid who takes even one IB course is going to benefit from the program. It is holistic and values global perspectives. Welcome to the 21st Century!

So anybody marching into South Lakes who thinks they can perform a coup d'etat has another think coming.

direct trend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB directly co relates to poor performing schools
> in FCPS. You dont have to have a math degree to
> figure that out on fcps website.
>
>
> IB in MOCO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I thought I read that Montgomery County schools
> > was bringing IB to 2 of their high schools-I
> will
> > chack it out.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if the parents
> > oppose IB like they do here.
> >
> > I think parents associate IB as bad because it
> > happens to be in the weaker schools. I don't
> > think there is a relationship.


Is that b/c IB was put in already low-performing schools, or did the performance deteriorate after IB came?

If the former, how have the "weaker" schools fared since IB came in? Do parents associate IB as bad only if it is weaker schools?

The link of IB and the schools is related to the neighborhoods and socioeconomic traits. Lee, Edison, MT Vernon. Get real. So if you put AP in these schools the test scores are going to skyrocket?

That is just stupid.

Not sure. That is a much harder trend to detect. What is the impact of IB on performance. Given the mass exodus that we are seeing in these RD communites to AP school either via pupil placement or other means, that itself will drive down performance by draining a segement of good quality students. During the RD debates, there were presentations from parents showing that SL exodus started around the same time IB was introduced. Once enough number of parents have got it in their heads that IB is bad, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Student population will move away from IB schools and the chain will feed on itself.

If the statements about IB being put in poor schools to start with are true, then it was a stupid decision of FCPS to put IB in already failing schools. You dont introduce something new in a failure scenario.

NoVa newcomer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> direct trend Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > IB directly co relates to poor performing
> schools
> > in FCPS. You dont have to have a math degree to
> > figure that out on fcps website.
> >
> >
> > IB in MOCO Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I thought I read that Montgomery County
> schools
> > > was bringing IB to 2 of their high schools-I
> > will
> > > chack it out.
> > >
> > > It will be interesting to see if the parents
> > > oppose IB like they do here.
> > >
> > > I think parents associate IB as bad because
> it
> > > happens to be in the weaker schools. I don't
> > > think there is a relationship.
>
>
> Is that b/c IB was put in already low-performing
> schools, or did the performance deteriorate after
> IB came?
>
> If the former, how have the "weaker" schools fared
> since IB came in? Do parents associate IB as bad
> only if it is weaker schools?

Again, I think many parents objected to the low test scores at South Lakes more than the IB program. I doubt seriously that these many parents would be pissed if their kids were being sent to Marshall or Robinson-both IB schools.

IB Is Here To Stay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The son of a friend just graduated from Marshall
> with a full physics scholarship to an excellent
> school. IB diploma candidate, one of more than 75.
> BUT the top students (honors or 4.0+) were NOT
> diploma candidates!
>
> South Lakes now has a principal on par with Jay
> Pearson at Marshall. Marshall, with similar
> demographics to South Lakes, is doing an
> absolutely fantastic job of getting more kids
> involved in and succeeding in academics - the IB
> program is benefitting ALL the students there, not
> just those who take IB courses or go for the
> certificate or the diploma. Kids who never would
> have considered going on to college are doing just
> that. That has been happening at South Lakes over
> the last three years.
>
> IB is here to stay, and is growing in the US at a
> greater-than 10% per year rate. This is a program
> that is going to take over the monopolistic
> stranglehold AP has - because it is better at
> preparing kids not just for college, but of
> lifelong learning. College professors support it;
> they frequently state that IB students are better
> prepared for their classes than AP students are.
> Any kid who takes even one IB course is going to
> benefit from the program. It is holistic and
> values global perspectives. Welcome to the 21st
> Century!
>
> So anybody marching into South Lakes who thinks
> they can perform a coup d'etat has another think
> coming.

Thanks for the complement - but some of your facts are off. About 80% of the honor graduates this year were IB diploma candidates. Since the IB courses receive a weighted GPA, that shouldn't come as a surprise. And, while Marshall certainly has a more diverse student body than, say, Madison or Langley, the current demographics aren't "similar" to South Lakes, which has more than twice the percentage of students receiving reduced lunches.

You are correct to note that Jay Pierson is very well-liked and has done a great job as Marshall's principal. Having said this, Jay would also do an excellent job if the school switched back to AP from IB, which some parents and students actually might prefer.

If some of the RD'd parents have agreed to send their kids to South Lakes, despite all the hoopla and efforts by others to suggest that this would be akin to child neglect, I would think that SL supporters should welcome their "marching" into South Lakes to share their ideas as to what might be improved in the future. It can't really be a "coup d'etat" once those parents are part of the etat!

Very nicely said, Marshall Booster. Unfortunately, the South Lakes crew seem to think they run the show and don't seem willing to accept these hijacked parents or their ideas into their family.

It is pointless to defend a school that is clearly failing in many areas. They only hurt their own students when they continue to wear the blinders. It is ironic that the parents who are held in such low regard by these SLHS PTA Gestapo are the ones who will be improving things at the school.

They are to self-centered and arrogant to even see the truth.

> Thanks for the complement - but some of your facts
> are off. About 80% of the honor graduates this
> year were IB diploma candidates.

And 20% were NOT. The point is that you don't have to be a diploma candidate to do well with and benefit from IB! So many idiots posting here keep spouting that IB benefits a "minority" of students and that's just plain BS.

Since the IB
> courses receive a weighted GPA, that shouldn't
> come as a surprise. And, while Marshall certainly
> has a more diverse student body than, say, Madison
> or Langley, the current demographics aren't
> "similar" to South Lakes, which has more than
> twice the percentage of students receiving reduced
> lunches.
>

"Similar" means "similar." Not "exactly." They both have high FRM %s and are racially diverse -- much more so than many of their surrounding AP schools. Both are also small.

> You are correct to note that Jay Pierson is very
> well-liked and has done a great job as Marshall's
> principal. Having said this, Jay would also do an
> excellent job if the school switched back to AP
> from IB, which some parents and students actually
> might prefer.

If you really ARE a Marshall "booster," You'd know that Jay spells his name "Pearson."

>
> If some of the RD'd parents have agreed to send
> their kids to South Lakes, despite all the hoopla
> and efforts by others to suggest that this would
> be akin to child neglect, I would think that SL
> supporters should welcome their "marching" into
> South Lakes to share their ideas as to what might
> be improved in the future. It can't really be a
> "coup d'etat" once those parents are part of the
> etat!

Sorry - but there are ill-informed parents who don't even have kids at South Lakes or who already have filled out their kids' MIT applications and are loaded for bear. They will be heard if they are willing to listen and learn. But if they come in with all four guns drawn, they won't get much respect. And won't deserve it. That goes for ANY newcomer at ANY school.

And do these loaded parents really think that parents who have been working on behalf of that school, some for decades, know better than THEY do about how to improve the school?? THOSE parents finally got Bruce in there, finally got RD done, and finally are getting the changes that Rodriguez was too weak to make and the school board too neglectful to support. Scores and participation and all kinds of other "parameters" are improving across the board since Bruce got there and started listening to parents and teachers.

Some of these new anti-SL and anti-IB parents have no clue about anything related to SLHS and are ready to change it all to suit their own selfish agendas.

Do not forget that many of these anti-IB parents cared not a whit on a shingle about IB or knew a lick about it when all this started. It was all about the "poverty," scores, and yes, races there. And their singularly psychotic competitive personalities related to college resumes. They made up anti-IB rhetoric to legitimize their agendas and have since skewed everything they hear to lambaste the program - because god forbid they should have been wrong.

Many of these parents are thankfully placing out of SLHS. Many others have come around - literally to the school - and seen the good things it does and heard the facts are changing their tune. The others are just plain ignorant.

Sounds like you have a welcoming environment prepared for the new inmates. Bravo!

BTW, "some" means "some."

The vast majority of parents and families coming to South Lakes are fine with and even excited about the school, its programs, and the community they're joining.

I'm talking about the few vituperative parents whose minds are closed and lawsuit pens drawn (and who often micromanage their kids' lives).

To the rabid SLHS cheerleader-

Since your group has done such a wonderful job at your school, could you provide me with the following information (I am sure you have it-given your broad knowledge of the school):

1. What are the dropout numbers broken down by race for SLHS for the past 5 years?

2. What percentage of minorities participate in your wonderful IB program? How many courses do they take? How many are full diploma candidates?

3. What percentage of minoroties take SAT and ACT at your school?

I have filed a FOIA for the following-but have not received a response yet. Since you are so proud of your results, I am sure you would be willing to brag about your great numbers.

I am waiting for your response.

IB Is Here To Stay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Thanks for the complement - but some of your
> facts
> > are off. About 80% of the honor graduates this
> > year were IB diploma candidates.
>
> And 20% were NOT. The point is that you don't have
> to be a diploma candidate to do well with and
> benefit from IB! So many idiots posting here keep
> spouting that IB benefits a "minority" of students
> and that's just plain BS.
>
> Since the IB
> > courses receive a weighted GPA, that shouldn't
> > come as a surprise. And, while Marshall
> certainly
> > has a more diverse student body than, say,
> Madison
> > or Langley, the current demographics aren't
> > "similar" to South Lakes, which has more than
> > twice the percentage of students receiving
> reduced
> > lunches.
> >
>
> "Similar" means "similar." Not "exactly." They
> both have high FRM %s and are racially diverse --
> much more so than many of their surrounding AP
> schools. Both are also small.
>
> > You are correct to note that Jay Pierson is
> very
> > well-liked and has done a great job as
> Marshall's
> > principal. Having said this, Jay would also do
> an
> > excellent job if the school switched back to AP
> > from IB, which some parents and students
> actually
> > might prefer.
>
> If you really ARE a Marshall "booster," You'd know
> that Jay spells his name "Pearson."
>
> >
> > If some of the RD'd parents have agreed to send
> > their kids to South Lakes, despite all the
> hoopla
> > and efforts by others to suggest that this
> would
> > be akin to child neglect, I would think that SL
> > supporters should welcome their "marching" into
> > South Lakes to share their ideas as to what
> might
> > be improved in the future. It can't really be
> a
> > "coup d'etat" once those parents are part of
> the
> > etat!
>
> Sorry - but there are ill-informed parents who
> don't even have kids at South Lakes or who already
> have filled out their kids' MIT applications and
> are loaded for bear. They will be heard if they
> are willing to listen and learn. But if they come
> in with all four guns drawn, they won't get much
> respect. And won't deserve it. That goes for ANY
> newcomer at ANY school.
>
> And do these loaded parents really think that
> parents who have been working on behalf of that
> school, some for decades, know better than THEY do
> about how to improve the school?? THOSE parents
> finally got Bruce in there, finally got RD done,
> and finally are getting the changes that Rodriguez
> was too weak to make and the school board too
> neglectful to support. Scores and participation
> and all kinds of other "parameters" are improving
> across the board since Bruce got there and started
> listening to parents and teachers.
>
> Some of these new anti-SL and anti-IB parents have
> no clue about anything related to SLHS and are
> ready to change it all to suit their own selfish
> agendas.
>
> Do not forget that many of these anti-IB parents
> cared not a whit on a shingle about IB or knew a
> lick about it when all this started. It was all
> about the "poverty," scores, and yes, races there.
> And their singularly psychotic competitive
> personalities related to college resumes. They
> made up anti-IB rhetoric to legitimize their
> agendas and have since skewed everything they hear
> to lambaste the program - because god forbid they
> should have been wrong.
>
> Many of these parents are thankfully placing out
> of SLHS. Many others have come around - literally
> to the school - and seen the good things it does
> and heard the facts are changing their tune. The
> others are just plain ignorant.

Well- you said in your original post that the "top students * * * were NOT diploma candidates," which is just wrong. You seemed to be suggesting that, if a good student took even one IB course, the "magic" of IB would rub off on the student and the student would then proceed to excel across-the-board. That doesn't seem right to me, for several reasons. First, the honors graduates generally were diploma candidates taking multiple IB courses, which receive extra credit for GPA purposes. Second, I think these students generally would have done equally well with an AP curriculum as well.

I would not argue that Marshall is not extremely diverse, nor would I want to, but it simply does not have "similar" demographics at present to those of South Lakes. Schools with similar demographics to Marshall are Fairfax and Herndon; schools with similar demographics to South Lakes are Edison and Lee.

You are right that Jay Pearson's last name was misspelled in my prior response. Sorry for that.

I'm not going to judge the motives of the "pro-RD" and "anti-RD" crowd at this point - far, far too complicated for me, as a relative bystander, to assess. I started to post on this thread because I was tired of seeing Marshall used as a rhetorical whipping post by other posters ("If only South Lakes were more like Marshall, we might send our kid there?" vs. "The School Board tried redistricting to Marshall in the 1980s, and it never worked") who don't understand the factors that have contributed to the school's much improved reputation in recent years. I'm certainly glad, though, that your friend's son had a positive experience there, and don't doubt for a second that others have had good experiences at South Lakes as well.

Since the IB courses are 2 years-Junior and Snior, and since the test results do not come back until August, how are colleges supposed to measure how well a student has done in an IB course?

IB testing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since the IB courses are 2 years-Junior and Snior,
> and since the test results do not come back until
> August, how are colleges supposed to measure how
> well a student has done in an IB course?


I believe that colleges will measure the student's capability by the grade assessed by the teacher in the class, just like an AP, Honors, or regular class.

The IB test results will impact the eligibility for college credit (depending on the level of IB course taken -- HL or SL -- and the particular university or college's policy on credit for IB).

still waiting on who pays the extra cost for IB since Montco parents pay at least some of it. What about the 3 tiers- reg, standard, higher? Why can't AP schools have honors with a .5 bump?

IB Is Here To Stay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry - but there are ill-informed parents who
> don't even have kids at South Lakes or who already
> have filled out their kids' MIT applications and
> are loaded for bear. They will be heard if they
> are willing to listen and learn. But if they come
> in with all four guns drawn, they won't get much
> respect. And won't deserve it. That goes for ANY
> newcomer at ANY school.
>
What a crock of garbage. If a parent decides to send her child to South Lakes, she has as much of a right as a "newcomer" to be heard as any other parent. This RD is such a scam - first you tell us that we'll be welcomed with open arms and then you tell us to shut up, get with the program, and defer to our more experienced South Lakes elders. Sorry, Queen/King Bee, it's not going to happen. Go rent someone else's kid for your school.

Ok, I just did a little browsing on the Montgomery County PS website. Apparently they are replacing their Cambridge Academy Programs in two of their high schools (Kennedy and Seneca Valley) with IB.

How come those parents aren't sreaming about AP?

They say it will only cost $80k to implement this change-sounds kinda cheap.

On a FAQ site about IB-MCPS recommends that IB students take AP exams. That does not seem to happen in FCPS. Why not?

I am confused about the different attitudes toward IB between these 2 school districts.

Any ideas?

I don't see what SL offers top end kids at the school, particularly in math and science.

As long as SL and HL classes are combined, someone is going to get the short end of the stick. Since any teacher will tell you that teachers teach to the mean, why precisely should a top student be in a school where there aren't enough kids for a straight HL class that is not combined with another class or where there is retesting to water things down?

I send my children to school for academics first and foremost. All the other things you talk about are great, but secondary to top tier academics geared specifically for top kids.

The school needs to stop combining HL and SL classes if they want to attract the best students. Does this mean in part you are subsidizing this end of the spectrum? Yes. I admit it. But you need to do this to attract the parent and student base you want to the school.

Having problems assessing this article. Can you share more information?

fmmom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Having problems assessing this article. Can you
> share more information?

Did you mean "accessing"? And did you mean the article to which "rumor" posted a link?

If so, then the problem is that the site -- commapps.fcps.edu -- is an internal FCPS site.

Which suggests that "rumor" is an FCPS employee.

Which proves nothing, but is sure interesting...

get ready for the silence Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the rabid SLHS cheerleader-
>
> Since your group has done such a wonderful job at
> your school, could you provide me with the
> following information (I am sure you have it-given
> your broad knowledge of the school):
>
> 1. What are the dropout numbers broken down by
> race for SLHS for the past 5 years?
>
> 2. What percentage of minorities participate in
> your wonderful IB program? How many courses do
> they take? How many are full diploma candidates?
>
> 3. What percentage of minoroties take SAT and ACT
> at your school?
>
> I have filed a FOIA for the following-but have not
> received a response yet. Since you are so proud
> of your results, I am sure you would be willing to
> brag about your great numbers.
>
> I am waiting for your response.

Can you provide the same information for your school, or the school you prefer over SL?

alurker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fmmom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Having problems assessing this article. Can
> you
> > share more information?
>
> Did you mean "accessing"? And did you mean the
> article to which "rumor" posted a link?
>
> If so, then the problem is that the site --
> commapps.fcps.edu -- is an internal FCPS site.
>
> Which suggests that "rumor" is an FCPS employee.
>
> Which proves nothing, but is sure interesting...

I am sorry the link isn't working. I am an employee but the article was orginally linked from another source and then uploaded to the internal fcps site. Basically the article stated that it isn't a violation to look at socio-economic issues when redistricting. It is if you look at racial demographics, but it violates no law to redistrict based on socio-economic demographics. I will cut and paste the article when I am on a break tomorrow.

Dear Observer,

What was the point of redistricting, if not to bring in more students so that SL and HL could be separated? You just reinforced that RD was a good thing.

redistricting happened Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see what SL offers top end kids at the
> school, particularly in math and science.
>
> As long as SL and HL classes are combined, someone
> is going to get the short end of the stick. Since
> any teacher will tell you that teachers teach to
> the mean, why precisely should a top student be in
> a school where there aren't enough kids for a
> straight HL class that is not combined with
> another class or where there is retesting to water
> things down?
>
> I send my children to school for academics first
> and foremost. All the other things you talk about
> are great, but secondary to top tier academics
> geared specifically for top kids.
>
> The school needs to stop combining HL and SL
> classes if they want to attract the best students.
> Does this mean in part you are subsidizing this
> end of the spectrum? Yes. I admit it. But you
> need to do this to attract the parent and student
> base you want to the school.

They aren't separating HL and SL. The rationale that was supposed to justify redistricting is not supporting the top kids at SL because if it did, they'd be willing to have class sizes of 10 or less to separate these kids out as redistricting is phased with each incoming class. So these kids will by and large not attend, and the cycle will continue.


Thanks, Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Observer,
>
> What was the point of redistricting, if not to
> bring in more students so that SL and HL could be
> separated? You just reinforced that RD was a good
> thing.
>
> redistricting happened Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't see what SL offers top end kids at the
> > school, particularly in math and science.
> >
> > As long as SL and HL classes are combined,
> someone
> > is going to get the short end of the stick.
> Since
> > any teacher will tell you that teachers teach
> to
> > the mean, why precisely should a top student be
> in
> > a school where there aren't enough kids for a
> > straight HL class that is not combined with
> > another class or where there is retesting to
> water
> > things down?
> >
> > I send my children to school for academics
> first
> > and foremost. All the other things you talk
> about
> > are great, but secondary to top tier academics
> > geared specifically for top kids.
> >
> > The school needs to stop combining HL and SL
> > classes if they want to attract the best
> students.
> > Does this mean in part you are subsidizing
> this
> > end of the spectrum? Yes. I admit it. But
> you
> > need to do this to attract the parent and
> student
> > base you want to the school.

Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see what SL offers top end kids at the
> school, particularly in math and science.
>
> As long as SL and HL classes are combined, someone
> is going to get the short end of the stick. Since
> any teacher will tell you that teachers teach to
> the mean, why precisely should a top student be in
> a school where there aren't enough kids for a
> straight HL class that is not combined with
> another class or where there is retesting to water
> things down?
>
> I send my children to school for academics first
> and foremost. All the other things you talk about
> are great, but secondary to top tier academics
> geared specifically for top kids.
>
> The school needs to stop combining HL and SL
> classes if they want to attract the best students.
> Does this mean in part you are subsidizing this
> end of the spectrum? Yes. I admit it. But you
> need to do this to attract the parent and student
> base you want to the school.

I am not sure what your point is. You do know that in FCPS AP courses are open to anyone who wants to take the course, right? Thus, teachers in AP classes will also be teaching to the "mean" as you put it. Many AP sections in other words attract more than the "top tier" students.

The redistricting was done to even out attendance at different FCPS. This happens all the time in school systems. Why such a big deal here?

Precisely. So then why should parents be entirely unconcerned about demographics of a school? Who sits next to you in a given class matters quite a bit as to the challenge a student can expect in a class or how frequent retesting is and the like.

For classes such as Physics, you won't find 25-30 kids signing up, so to have these HL classes combined with SL waters things down as well. For those schools that have the demographics to fill a true AP Physics class, it could make a real difference.

Increasingly, what FCPS will find is parents will migrate to different school pyramids so that the county is more socioeconomically segregated than ever.


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't see what SL offers top end kids at the
> > school, particularly in math and science.
> >
> > As long as SL and HL classes are combined,
> someone
> > is going to get the short end of the stick.
> Since
> > any teacher will tell you that teachers teach
> to
> > the mean, why precisely should a top student be
> in
> > a school where there aren't enough kids for a
> > straight HL class that is not combined with
> > another class or where there is retesting to
> water
> > things down?
> >
> > I send my children to school for academics
> first
> > and foremost. All the other things you talk
> about
> > are great, but secondary to top tier academics
> > geared specifically for top kids.
> >
> > The school needs to stop combining HL and SL
> > classes if they want to attract the best
> students.
> > Does this mean in part you are subsidizing
> this
> > end of the spectrum? Yes. I admit it. But
> you
> > need to do this to attract the parent and
> student
> > base you want to the school.
>
> I am not sure what your point is. You do know
> that in FCPS AP courses are open to anyone who
> wants to take the course, right? Thus, teachers
> in AP classes will also be teaching to the "mean"
> as you put it. Many AP sections in other words
> attract more than the "top tier" students.

Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Precisely. So then why should parents be entirely
> unconcerned about demographics of a school? Who
> sits next to you in a given class matters quite a
> bit as to the challenge a student can expect in a
> class or how frequent retesting is and the like.
>
> For classes such as Physics, you won't find 25-30
> kids signing up, so to have these HL classes
> combined with SL waters things down as well. For
> those schools that have the demographics to fill a
> true AP Physics class, it could make a real
> difference.
>
> Increasingly, what FCPS will find is parents will
> migrate to different school pyramids so that the
> county is more socioeconomically segregated than
> ever.
>
>
Okay. However, if they have the demographics to fill a "true AP Physics class" you will also have the demographics to fill an IB HL Physics class.

If you look under the Departments sections at Kennedy & Seneca Valley, you'll see that they also offer a full set of AP classes. That's also true of the other MOCO schools that offer IB. MOCO offers IB as a magnet program (and had offered Cambridge) and offers AP as the standard advanced curriculum at every HS.

FCPS HSes only offer one or the other and only buses to base high schools.

MOCO is different-why? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I just did a little browsing on the Montgomery
> County PS website. Apparently they are replacing
> their Cambridge Academy Programs in two of their
> high schools (Kennedy and Seneca Valley) with IB.
>
> How come those parents aren't sreaming about AP?
>
> They say it will only cost $80k to implement this
> change-sounds kinda cheap.
>
> On a FAQ site about IB-MCPS recommends that IB
> students take AP exams. That does not seem to
> happen in FCPS. Why not?
>
> I am confused about the different attitudes toward
> IB between these 2 school districts.
>
> Any ideas?

I was comparing different high schools such as McLean v. South Lakes. I was not comparing AP vs. IB at SL.

My point is that for high end kids at SL, you need to break out smaller top class and not combine them in order to get the same level of rigor as you would in a different school with different socioeconomics where the mean in a given class is not as "diluted."



rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Precisely. So then why should parents be
> entirely
> > unconcerned about demographics of a school?
> Who
> > sits next to you in a given class matters quite
> a
> > bit as to the challenge a student can expect in
> a
> > class or how frequent retesting is and the
> like.
> >
> > For classes such as Physics, you won't find
> 25-30
> > kids signing up, so to have these HL classes
> > combined with SL waters things down as well.
> For
> > those schools that have the demographics to fill
> a
> > true AP Physics class, it could make a real
> > difference.
> >
> > Increasingly, what FCPS will find is parents
> will
> > migrate to different school pyramids so that
> the
> > county is more socioeconomically segregated
> than
> > ever.
> >
> >
> Okay. However, if they have the demographics to
> fill a "true AP Physics class" you will also have
> the demographics to fill an IB HL Physics class.

Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was comparing different high schools such as
> McLean v. South Lakes. I was not comparing AP vs.
> IB at SL.
>
> My point is that for high end kids at SL, you need
> to break out smaller top class and not combine
> them in order to get the same level of rigor as
> you would in a different school with different
> socioeconomics where the mean in a given class is
> not as "diluted."
>
I do understand what you are saying in terms of HL and SL, but what about AP classes? They too have open enrollment. So, are you suggesting that the level of rigor at AP schools is better because of socio-economics? Lets say there are enough AP sections at McLean that at least 2 -3 of them are "diluted" as you put it with lower socioeconomic students. Should parents there then complain about their particular child's peers, and the "rigor" of the course?

The RD is a huge step backward. Instead of improving FCPS school standards, now major new area of FM, Floris and MI now fall in the failing school area category. These areas were under the best schools and now we have widened the problem of low performing schools. The only logical solution was to shutdown SL instead of pouring 60 million down the drain. 60 million could have added the capacity at Langley, Oakton and Madison to absorb the 1300 students from SL. Everyone would have won including the 1300 students at SL. Now 2100 students lose and the taxpayer sees 60 million go waste.

http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/newsletters/pdf/june_2008.pdf

Excellent analysis on IB. We need to provide AP to all schools and end this divide of providing AP only to the favored schools.

www.fairfaxcaps.org/newsletters/pdf/june_2008.pdf

Jamey - your post must be in jest. If the purpose was, as you purport, merely to even out attendance, there is no way that a school like Langley, gerrymandered as it is to secure the socio-economically well-off, should have been exempt from any even-out process. This was about politics - pure and simple - and giving a low attendance high school not just bodies, but ones from at least middle class areas that could enhance the profile of the school. This RD was purely an exercise in political and economic power, with the politicos working in concert with those with money to fulfill their own vision of an educracy,

Parents will always do what they think is in the best interest of their children. If this means complaining in certain instances, then they will do it. If their time is better served focusing on other things, then I imagine they will do this, instead.

Not all AP schools are the same. If this were the case, an AP high school in Anacostia would be the same as one in Fairfax County. It's not.

Having said this, socioeconomics are not everything. I myself grew up in a working class neighborhood and broke out. There are many parents with lower means who value education more than a rich kid who has a trust fund. However, with weak schools in the SL pyramid that continues to be unaddressed and excuses 'round every corner on why we can't possibly improve Dogwood, Lake Anne and the like, many many students in Langston Hughes and SL are dealing with the ramifications of this.

Hunters Woods is now going downhill under Olivia Toatley. She is driving parents out of the school and there is now a campaign by some individuals in the school -- some of whom are in the PTA -- to drive her out. The rapid decline of Hunters Woods does not bode well for the SL pyramid overall. The SL pyramid is losing their own kids before they even get to SL, where Bruce Butler has effected tremendous changes in a short period of time. Unless there is concerted pressure to move bad elementary school principals out in the SL pyramid, much of what Bruce Butler is trying to accomplish will necessarily be undermined.


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was comparing different high schools such as
> > McLean v. South Lakes. I was not comparing AP
> vs.
> > IB at SL.
> >
> > My point is that for high end kids at SL, you
> need
> > to break out smaller top class and not combine
> > them in order to get the same level of rigor as
> > you would in a different school with different
> > socioeconomics where the mean in a given class
> is
> > not as "diluted."
> >
> I do understand what you are saying in terms of HL
> and SL, but what about AP classes? They too have
> open enrollment. So, are you suggesting that the
> level of rigor at AP schools is better because of
> socio-economics? Lets say there are enough AP
> sections at McLean that at least 2 -3 of them are
> "diluted" as you put it with lower socioeconomic
> students. Should parents there then complain
> about their particular child's peers, and the
> "rigor" of the course?

Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > where Bruce Butler has effected tremendous changes in a short period of time.< <

I keep reading people making this assertion. Despite making the following inquiry multiple time on this forum, I get few substantive answers, maybe you can answer it: Other than not being Railly Rodriquez, what specifically has Mr. Butler done?

I've posted on this forum several things that he has done which some SL parents have found objectionable.

The only examples of things attributed to him are better atmosphere, not much more specific.

The recent rise in SAT scores were achieved by students who were led by Rodriquez for most of their time at SL. So Mr. Butler would probably not take credit for that.

Please identify something to be optimistic about SL.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2008 10:10PM by Thomas More.

Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Parents will always do what they think is in the
> best interest of their children. If this means
> complaining in certain instances, then they will
> do it. If their time is better served focusing on
> other things, then I imagine they will do this,
> instead.
>
> Not all AP schools are the same. If this were the
> case, an AP high school in Anacostia would be the
> same as one in Fairfax County. It's not.
>
> Having said this, socioeconomics are not
> everything. I myself grew up in a working class
> neighborhood and broke out. There are many
> parents with lower means who value education more
> than a rich kid who has a trust fund. However,
> with weak schools in the SL pyramid that continues
> to be unaddressed and excuses 'round every corner
> on why we can't possibly improve Dogwood, Lake
> Anne and the like, many many students in Langston
> Hughes and SL are dealing with the ramifications
> of this.
>
> Hunters Woods is now going downhill under Olivia
> Toatley. She is driving parents out of the school
> and there is now a campaign by some individuals in
> the school -- some of whom are in the PTA -- to
> drive her out. The rapid decline of Hunters Woods
> does not bode well for the SL pyramid overall.
> The SL pyramid is losing their own kids before
> they even get to SL, where Bruce Butler has
> effected tremendous changes in a short period of
> time. Unless there is concerted pressure to move
> bad elementary school principals out in the SL
> pyramid, much of what Bruce Butler is trying to
> accomplish will necessarily be undermined.
>
Right, not all AP schools or courses are the same. The differences boil down to what? What are the differences between AP classes in Fairfax and AP classes in Anacostia? What are the differences between South Lakes in Fairfax and Oakton? Since, as you say, parents will do what they need to do, is the solution simply switching to AP from IB, I think you would disagree with that based on what you said. Thus, it does boil down to socioeconomics and the perceived differences that exist. If an AP course with open enrollment in a particular school might end up not being rigorous enough for the students to achieve a 3 on the exam, wouldn't that equal your concerns about SL and HL being in the same course? And really, since SL is one year and HL two, I would assume that there could indeed be justifiable reasons for mixing in the first year...the second year would only be HL conceivably..because SL doesn't mean "less rigorous" but rather less material covered, less depth..hence the second year for HL, right?

I am not aware of the issues you have described in the ES's in the pyramid (meaning I am not aware of issues with new principals). Clearly that will affect South Lakes down the road. But, if that is just now occuring, what makes South Lakes not up to "par" now?

You have said that based on your own childhood you truly understand it is the family and its' value towards education..so if you create that understanding with your kids, they will flourish anywhere (with perhaps the exception of schools in Anacostia that don't have current textbooks or libraries available to their students, thus the real problem of NCLB..can't compare a school with no access to a library to even the worst off FCPS school).

rumor, socio-economic demographics is a front for racial discrimination. These numbers directly relate to racial make up of the community

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> alurker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > fmmom Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Having problems assessing this article. Can
> > you
> > > share more information?
> >
> > Did you mean "accessing"? And did you mean the
> > article to which "rumor" posted a link?
> >
> > If so, then the problem is that the site --
> > commapps.fcps.edu -- is an internal FCPS site.
> >
> > Which suggests that "rumor" is an FCPS
> employee.
> >
> > Which proves nothing, but is sure
> interesting...
>
> I am sorry the link isn't working. I am an
> employee but the article was orginally linked from
> another source and then uploaded to the internal
> fcps site. Basically the article stated that it
> isn't a violation to look at socio-economic issues
> when redistricting. It is if you look at racial
> demographics, but it violates no law to redistrict
> based on socio-economic demographics. I will cut
> and paste the article when I am on a break
> tomorrow.

That is precisely the reason Langley was not included. Langley's "socio-economic demographics" ( read racial make up wink wink ) does not mix well with "socio-economic demographics" of south lakes

illegal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor, socio-economic demographics is a front for
> racial discrimination. These numbers directly
> relate to racial make up of the community
>
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > alurker Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > fmmom Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Having problems assessing this article.
> Can
> > > you
> > > > share more information?
> > >
> > > Did you mean "accessing"? And did you mean
> the
> > > article to which "rumor" posted a link?
> > >
> > > If so, then the problem is that the site --
> > > commapps.fcps.edu -- is an internal FCPS
> site.
> > >
> > > Which suggests that "rumor" is an FCPS
> > employee.
> > >
> > > Which proves nothing, but is sure
> > interesting...
> >
> > I am sorry the link isn't working. I am an
> > employee but the article was orginally linked
> from
> > another source and then uploaded to the
> internal
> > fcps site. Basically the article stated that
> it
> > isn't a violation to look at socio-economic
> issues
> > when redistricting. It is if you look at
> racial
> > demographics, but it violates no law to
> redistrict
> > based on socio-economic demographics. I will
> cut
> > and paste the article when I am on a break
> > tomorrow.

illegal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor, socio-economic demographics is a front for
> racial discrimination. These numbers directly
> relate to racial make up of the community
>
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > alurker Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > fmmom Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Having problems assessing this article.
> Can
> > > you
> > > > share more information?
> > >
> > > Did you mean "accessing"? And did you mean
> the
> > > article to which "rumor" posted a link?
> > >
> > > If so, then the problem is that the site --
> > > commapps.fcps.edu -- is an internal FCPS
> site.
> > >
> > > Which suggests that "rumor" is an FCPS
> > employee.
> > >
> > > Which proves nothing, but is sure
> > interesting...
> >
> > I am sorry the link isn't working. I am an
> > employee but the article was orginally linked
> from
> > another source and then uploaded to the
> internal
> > fcps site. Basically the article stated that
> it
> > isn't a violation to look at socio-economic
> issues
> > when redistricting. It is if you look at
> racial
> > demographics, but it violates no law to
> redistrict
> > based on socio-economic demographics. I will
> cut
> > and paste the article when I am on a break
> > tomorrow.



As I said, I will copy/cut and paste the article tomorrow morning and you can read what it says. It basically asserts that socio-economic isn't code for redistricting based on racial demographics and cites research that supports having a more socio-ecomically diverse student body. That no harm is done to the middle and upper socio-economic groupings and that there is a benefit for lower..thus, it doesn't violate anything to redistrict based on socio-economics. But, again..I will paste it in.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And really,
> since SL is one year and HL two, I would assume
> that there could indeed be justifiable reasons for
> mixing in the first year...the second year would
> only be HL conceivably..because SL doesn't mean
> "less rigorous" but rather less material covered,
> less depth..hence the second year for HL, right?
>

Depends on the course. In many cases, SL is the first year of a two year HL course. In other cases, SL and HL are incompatible with SL for people not going on in the discipline (e.g. SL Math vs HL Math). And, in one case, the SL course is actually beyond HL - Further Math Standard Level (not commonly offered) is actually an extension of HL Math covering all optional HL topics.

Boundary Warrior Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

>
>> There is a curriculum committee formed, and there
> also is a committee to work with the parents and
> kids from the elementary schools specifically to
> solicit input from the new parents, many of whom
> have heard only from the whisperers and purveyors
> of false information.
>
> Questions?

Yes, when will parents at Hunters Woods be informed of this committee? When might Fox Mill and Floris parents be asked to participate? Or is committee only open to current South Lakes parents? Can you tell us who is chairing this committee and where parents might sign up to participate? Can you also direct us to a link about it, meeting dates and times, etc?

Thanks!

lawsuit is the only option Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The school board thinks it is above the law. For
> now Lawsuit is the only option. By the next
> election we have to get the school board under the
> oversight of the board of supervisors. It was a
> stupid move to make them independent of the board
> of supervisors in the later 90s. Now we have a
> school board that is out of control serving only
> their special interests.
>
What makes you think that the democrats on the board of supervisors wouldn't appoint the same democrats to the school board who serve now? Or ones who vote very much as the current democrats on the board vote? I suspect that they would do exactly that. The only difference would be that Tessie would lose her school board slot to a democrat and Kathy Smith would lose her's to a republican. yawn. No real changes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2008 11:27PM by Neen.

Bruce Butler starts tenure in summer of 2005. South Lakes' SAT scores begin to rise with class of 2007 - Tenure with Rodriguez = two years; tenure w/ Butler = 2 years. Class of 2008 = 3 years w/ Butler. Remember that fact-checking 101 option?

Reason to be optimistic? The year that Jx&* F$%%#*'s youngest graduates!

He clears bleachers w/ a single bellow, he empties grandstands w/ each red-faced sputtering Irish insult hurled at the umpires....He's a bird, he's a plane, he's Super Pathetic.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> illegal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rumor, socio-economic demographics is a front
> for
> > racial discrimination. These numbers directly
> > relate to racial make up of the community
> >
> > rumor Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > alurker Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > fmmom Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Having problems assessing this article.
> > Can
> > > > you
> > > > > share more information?
> > > >
> > > > Did you mean "accessing"? And did you mean
> > the
> > > > article to which "rumor" posted a link?
> > > >
> > > > If so, then the problem is that the site --
> > > > commapps.fcps.edu -- is an internal FCPS
> > site.
> > > >
> > > > Which suggests that "rumor" is an FCPS
> > > employee.
> > > >
> > > > Which proves nothing, but is sure
> > > interesting...
> > >
> > > I am sorry the link isn't working. I am an
> > > employee but the article was orginally linked
> > from
> > > another source and then uploaded to the
> > internal
> > > fcps site. Basically the article stated that
> > it
> > > isn't a violation to look at socio-economic
> > issues
> > > when redistricting. It is if you look at
> > racial
> > > demographics, but it violates no law to
> > redistrict
> > > based on socio-economic demographics. I will
> > cut
> > > and paste the article when I am on a break
> > > tomorrow.
>
>
>
> As I said, I will copy/cut and paste the article
> tomorrow morning and you can read what it says.
> It basically asserts that socio-economic isn't
> code for redistricting based on racial
> demographics and cites research that supports
> having a more socio-ecomically diverse student
> body. That no harm is done to the middle and
> upper socio-economic groupings and that there is a
> benefit for lower..thus, it doesn't violate
> anything to redistrict based on socio-economics.
> But, again..I will paste it in.


Please do copy and paste the entire article. Thanks. I find it interesting how the article got to the FCPS intranet site and I am curious about the author who wrote this article and where it came from.

You have no kids in the pyramid.

get ready for the silence Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the rabid SLHS cheerleader-
>
> Since your group has done such a wonderful job at
> your school, could you provide me with the
> following information (I am sure you have it-given
> your broad knowledge of the school):
>
> 1. What are the dropout numbers broken down by
> race for SLHS for the past 5 years?
>
> 2. What percentage of minorities participate in
> your wonderful IB program? How many courses do
> they take? How many are full diploma candidates?
>
> 3. What percentage of minoroties take SAT and ACT
> at your school?
>
> I have filed a FOIA for the following-but have not
> received a response yet. Since you are so proud
> of your results, I am sure you would be willing to
> brag about your great numbers.
>
> I am waiting for your response.

I would caution about asking for dropout rates without being more specific. FCPS has a unique way of determining graduation rates. They figure them based on how many students enter 12th grade and how many of those students graduate. The rest of the world looks at students who enter 9th grade and then graduate 4 years later. FCPS ignores students who dropout during 9th, 10th, 11th grades, when they figure graduation rates.

The lawsuit will end this madness and this thread. School Board is going to lose and old boundaries will be restored. Just wait a couple more weeks.

Thomas More,
Will the SL PTSA allow you to be on this new curriculum committee? Has this committee ever met?

You said that Maria was in charge of KIT. What is that?

Thanks.

dont you get it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stu Gibson will never let IB go away from SL. All
> this talk about curriculum changes is BS. It was
> used as a talking point during RD. Now the RD is
> over and that talking point is gone. To get rid of
> IB, first get rid of Stu Gibson from the SB
>
I'm afraid that you would have to go well beyond Stu Gibson. All the democrats on the school board love IB because it fits their political ideology and because staff loves it. Democrats on the board always support staff. They think that they work for staff. No, I cannot begin to explain it.

IB in MOCO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought I read that Montgomery County schools
> was bringing IB to 2 of their high schools-I will
> chack it out.
>
> It will be interesting to see if the parents
> oppose IB like they do here.
>
> I think parents associate IB as bad because it
> happens to be in the weaker schools. I don't
> think there is a relationship.

In Montgomery county IB is a magnet program at Richard Montgomery. IB is not forced on any student or any school. Students choose to attend Richard Montgomery for the IB program. If we had IB as a magnet, in one or two schools, and the program was entirely voluntary, I believe that it would be well supported here too.

IB Is Here To Stay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The son of a friend just graduated from Marshall
> with a full physics scholarship to an excellent
> school. IB diploma candidate, one of more than 75.
> BUT the top students (honors or 4.0+) were NOT
> diploma candidates!
>
> South Lakes now has a principal on par with Jay
> Pearson at Marshall. Marshall, with similar
> demographics to South Lakes, is doing an
> absolutely fantastic job of getting more kids
> involved in and succeeding in academics - the IB
> program is benefitting ALL the students there, not
> just those who take IB courses or go for the
> certificate or the diploma. Kids who never would
> have considered going on to college are doing just
> that. That has been happening at South Lakes over
> the last three years.
>
> IB is here to stay, and is growing in the US at a
> greater-than 10% per year rate. This is a program
> that is going to take over the 18290 MAPLE SPRING18290 MAPLE SPRING
> stranglehold AP has - because it is better at
> preparing kids not just for college, but of
> lifelong learning. College professors support it;
> they frequently state that IB students are better
> prepared for their classes than AP students are.
> Any kid who takes even one IB course is going to
> benefit from the program. It is holistic and
> values global perspectives. Welcome to the 21st
> Century!
>
> So anybody marching into South Lakes who thinks
> they can perform a coup d'etat has another think
> coming.

Just as we thought, the IB dictators at South Lakes will never permit any discussion of AP.

Eileen, is that you? Or is it Elizabeth? In any event, thanks for the propaganda report, typically with no evidence. I particularly enjoyed the phrase "monopolistic stranglehold of AP". LOL

Is it true that you receive a kickback from the IBO? Or is it just typical liberal elitism, that you know better than the parents what program should be forced upon their children?

wrong wrong wrong Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, I think many parents objected to the low
> test scores at South Lakes more than the IB
> program. I doubt seriously that these many
> parents would be pissed if their kids were being
> sent to Marshall or Robinson-both IB schools.

I have to disagree with you there. Most parents in FCPS want an AP program because it is a better program for their children, particularly those children who will be attending college in the US and not overseas.

> Sorry - but there are ill-informed parents who
> don't even have kids at South Lakes or who already
> have filled out their kids' MIT applications and
> are loaded for bear. They will be heard if they
> are willing to listen and learn. But if they come
> in with all four guns drawn, they won't get much
> respect. And won't deserve it. That goes for ANY
> newcomer at ANY school.
>
> And do these loaded parents really think that
> parents who have been working on behalf of that
> school, some for decades, know better than THEY do
> about how to improve the school?? THOSE parents
> finally got Bruce in there, finally got RD done,
> and finally are getting the changes that Rodriguez
> was too weak to make and the school board too
> neglectful to support. Scores and participation
> and all kinds of other "parameters" are improving
> across the board since Bruce got there and started
> listening to parents and teachers.
>
> Some of these new anti-SL and anti-IB parents have
> no clue about anything related to SLHS and are
> ready to change it all to suit their own selfish
> agendas.
>
> Do not forget that many of these anti-IB parents
> cared not a whit on a shingle about IB or knew a
> lick about it when all this started. It was all
> about the "poverty," scores, and yes, races there.
> And their singularly psychotic competitive
> personalities related to college resumes. They
> made up anti-IB rhetoric to legitimize their
> agendas and have since skewed everything they hear
> to lambaste the program - because god forbid they
> should have been wrong.
>
> Many of these parents are thankfully placing out
> of SLHS. Many others have come around - literally
> to the school - and seen the good things it does
> and heard the facts are changing their tune. The
> others are just plain ignorant.

Wow. You are still SO angry, despite the fact that you say that South Lakes parents have gotten everything they wanted. No wonder people still don't want to send their children to a school with such angry, nasty, mean spirited, elitist, I-know-better-than-you parents.

Phantom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Bruce Butler starts tenure in summer of 2005. South Lakes' SAT scores begin to rise with class of 2007 - Tenure with Rodriguez = two years; tenure w/ Butler = 2 years. Class of 2008 = 3 years w/ Butler.< <

The 2008 SAT test results have not been reported yet.

Yet another troll heard from. Thanks for nothing - back to your cave

IB Is Here To Stay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, "some" means "some."
>
> The vast majority of parents and families coming
> to South Lakes are fine with and even excited
> about the school, its programs, and the community
> they're joining.
>
And you would know this because..............????

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> illegal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rumor, socio-economic demographics is a front
> for
> > racial discrimination. These numbers directly
> > relate to racial make up of the community
> >
> > rumor Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > alurker Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > fmmom Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Having problems assessing this article.
> > Can
> > > > you
> > > > > share more information?
> > > >
> > > > Did you mean "accessing"? And did you mean
> > the
> > > > article to which "rumor" posted a link?
> > > >
> > > > If so, then the problem is that the site --
> > > > commapps.fcps.edu -- is an internal FCPS
> > site.
> > > >
> > > > Which suggests that "rumor" is an FCPS
> > > employee.
> > > >
> > > > Which proves nothing, but is sure
> > > interesting...
> > >
> > > I am sorry the link isn't working. I am an
> > > employee but the article was orginally linked
> > from
> > > another source and then uploaded to the
> > internal
> > > fcps site. Basically the article stated that
> > it
> > > isn't a violation to look at socio-economic
> > issues
> > > when redistricting. It is if you look at
> > racial
> > > demographics, but it violates no law to
> > redistrict
> > > based on socio-economic demographics. I will
> > cut
> > > and paste the article when I am on a break
> > > tomorrow.
>
>
>
> As I said, I will copy/cut and paste the article
> tomorrow morning and you can read what it says.
> It basically asserts that socio-economic isn't
> code for redistricting based on racial
> demographics and cites research that supports
> having a more socio-ecomically diverse student
> body. That no harm is done to the middle and
> upper socio-economic groupings and that there is a
> benefit for lower..thus, it doesn't violate
> anything to redistrict based on socio-economics.
> But, again..I will paste it in.

FCPS said the same thing when they wanted to bring affirmative action to TJ. It was not illegal to use socio economics for affirmative action.

rumor Wrote:



>
>
> As I said, I will copy/cut and paste the article
> tomorrow morning and you can read what it says.
> It basically asserts that socio-economic isn't
> code for redistricting based on racial
> demographics and cites research that supports
> having a more socio-ecomically diverse student
> body. That no harm is done to the middle and
> upper socio-economic groupings and that there is a
> benefit for lower..thus, it doesn't violate
> anything to redistrict based on socio-economics.
> But, again..I will paste it in.

But isn't the real point, that FCPS is asserting that they aren't doing anything illegal because they don't want to lose a lawsuit and so far the courts have not forbidden discrimination based on income?

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was comparing different high schools such as
> > McLean v. South Lakes. I was not comparing AP
> vs.
> > IB at SL.
> >
> > My point is that for high end kids at SL, you
> need
> > to break out smaller top class and not combine
> > them in order to get the same level of rigor as
> > you would in a different school with different
> > socioeconomics where the mean in a given class
> is
> > not as "diluted."
> >
> I do understand what you are saying in terms of HL
> and SL, but what about AP classes? They too have
> open enrollment. So, are you suggesting that the
> level of rigor at AP schools is better because of
> socio-economics? Lets say there are enough AP
> sections at McLean that at least 2 -3 of them are
> "diluted" as you put it with lower socioeconomic
> students. Should parents there then complain
> about their particular child's peers, and the
> "rigor" of the course?

Yes. If a course is being dumbed down, parents should complain.

So, in response to an inquiry about Coppermine redistricting study, Tisdadt wrote that his staff will recommend no High School changes be part of the study. However, he said a final recommendationn about middle schools will come later.

What he is doing is waiting for the lawsuit to end. The plan is to move Fox Mill and Floris (the part now at SL) from Rachel Carson to Langston Hughes, so as to restore the pyramid and to give these kids the benefit of the IB middle years program. JI is ending at Floris, so the JI teachers at Carson will also go to Hughes.

If you are in favor of moving Floris and Fox Mill to Hughes, good for you. If you are opposed, consider donating to CAPS and writing to your SB member (for whatever good that will do).

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > But isn't the real point, that FCPS is asserting
> that they aren't doing anything illegal because
> they don't want to lose a lawsuit and so far the
> courts have not forbidden discrimination based on
> income?

Actually, even though it was on an FCPS site, FCPS isn't stating anything in the article. Here is the orginal source: http://www.edweek.org/login.html?source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edweek.org%2Fsearch.html%3Fqs%3Dangela%2Bciolfi&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edweek.org%2Few%2Farticles%2F2008%2F06%2F18%2F42ryan.h27.html%3Fqs%3Dangela%2Bciolfi&levelId=2100&baddebt=false

If you aren't a subscriber you can easily register for free access to 2 articles a week, to at least get this one. In case the link doesn't work I have cut and pasted the article below:
Socioeconomic Integration: It’s Legal, and It Makes Sense


Education Week, June 14, 2008
by Angela Ciolfi & James E. Ryan

What if all the poor kids in a large school district went to the same school? Could the school board do anything about it? One might think the answer is obviously yes, but not everyone agrees. Eleven parents in Fairfax County, Va., recently filed a lawsuit claiming, among other things, that the school board exceeded its authority by taking socioeconomic factors into account when redrawing attendance zones. The issue is a significant one, with implications for school districts across the country that either already consider student demographics when drawing attendance zones or plan to do so in the future.
Redrawing attendance zones is an unavoidably messy, inherently political, and inevitably emotional exercise, and we express no opinion on the overall merits of the Fairfax County plan or the various complaints made against it. But the claim that school boards cannot consider student poverty when drawing attendance zones is simply wrong and must be rejected.
To begin with, considering socioeconomic status when assigning students to school definitely does not violate the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Supreme Court, in a decision last June, limited the extent to which race may be considered in school assignments, but it did not and has not limited the ability of school boards to take socioeconomic status into account. Indeed, if anything, the court’s decision limiting the use of race encourages school boards to consider other factors, such as socioeconomic status, as a means of creating a diverse student body.
Considering socioeconomic status does not violate state law either. In Virginia, as in other states, school boards have broad legal authority to redraw school boundaries. Under Virginia law, for example, school boards can redraw attendance zones whenever doing so “will contribute to the efficiency of the school division.” This is a fairly open-ended grant of discretion, which, at the very least, must allow boards to draw attendance boundaries in a way that promises to increase academic performance in a cost-effective manner. Delivering more for less, after all, is the epitome of efficiency.
That is exactly what socioeconomic integration promises: more academic benefit for less money than under alternative policies. More than 40 years of social science research shows that the socioeconomic composition of a child’s school has an effect on academic performance over and above that of the socioeconomic status of the child’s family. Here in Virginia, a 2003 report commissioned by the legislature found that the greatest predictor of achievement on the state Standards of Learning tests was the level of student poverty in the school district. It’s not hard to understand why. High-poverty schools have to address not only the unmet physical, social, and emotional needs of their individual students, but also the cumulative effects of concentrated poverty in a single school.
Socioeconomic integration can help disadvantaged students without harming their middle-income peers.Meeting the additional needs of poor students and overcoming the effects of poverty are not impossible tasks, but they can be extraordinarily expensive ones. Many programs, such as reducing class sizes or paying good teachers more to teach in high-poverty schools, can help, but they cost real money. Virginia, unfortunately, provides relatively little additional funding to address the challenges of educating students in schools of concentrated poverty, letting this burden fall largely on local governments.
A less expensive alternative, and one that can be just as effective, is to integrate schools by socioeconomic status. Time and again, studies have shown that creating predominantly middle-income schools can have a positive effect on the test scores of students at the bottom, without negatively affecting the scores of students at the top. That’s right: Socioeconomic integration can help disadvantaged students without harming their middle-income peers. That seems too good to be true, and middle-income parents have a hard time believing it, which probably explains the lawsuit in Fairfax County. But that is indeed what the research suggests.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Socioeconomic integration is not a silver bullet, and there is no guarantee that it will work every time for every student. But the evidence strongly indicates that breaking up schools of concentrated poverty is a cost-effective strategy to increase academic achievement, which is always important but especially so in this era of the No Child Left Behind Act. Socioeconomic integration is also a way to create more-diverse schools and to recapture the notion, central to the very origins of public education, that public schools should serve rich and poor equally and together.
The Fairfax County school board surely acted within its discretion in trying to avoid schools of concentrated poverty, and its decision should be upheld, not second-guessed, by the courts. Indeed, we should be applauding school boards that are trying to improve schools while saving the taxpayers some moneynot taking them to court.
Angela Ciolfi is an attorney for the JustChldren Program of the Legal Aid Justice Center, in Charlottesville, Va. James E. Ryan is a professor of law at the University of Virginia, also in Charlottesville.
Vol. 27, Issue 42, Page 28

The above article is not a scholarly study. It is just an opinion piece. The article does not evaluate the history of Dillons Rule vis-a-vis school board actions etc. That is, the question is not whether gerrymandering to distribute impovershed kids is good for the kids...the question is whether the legislature gave the SB the power to do so. Dillon's rule exists to keep local governments in check...they only have the powers expressly given. One person's noble social experiment is another's crass discrimination.

Also, the article states, without statistics or even reference, that kids improve when mixed. While I like the idea, to be a serious article, it needs to back up the pop psychology with facts. What schools were studied in a before/after scenario? What improvements were seen...and for who? Was there any evidence of "a down side" to the change.

Basically, the article is an attempt by a lawyer/professor to pontificate and drum up some work from school boards etc. It is all fluff.

I dont think so Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The above article is not a scholarly study. It is
> just an opinion piece. The article does not
> evaluate the history of Dillons Rule vis-a-vis
> school board actions etc. That is, the question
> is not whether gerrymandering to distribute
> impovershed kids is good for the kids...the
> question is whether the legislature gave the SB
> the power to do so. Dillon's rule exists to keep
> local governments in check...they only have the
> powers expressly given. One person's noble social
> experiment is another's crass discrimination.
>
> Also, the article states, without statistics or
> even reference, that kids improve when mixed.
> While I like the idea, to be a serious article, it
> needs to back up the pop psychology with facts.
> What schools were studied in a before/after
> scenario? What improvements were seen...and for
> who? Was there any evidence of "a down side" to
> the change.
>
> Basically, the article is an attempt by a
> lawyer/professor to pontificate and drum up some
> work from school boards etc. It is all fluff.


I never claimed it was a scholary study. In general the writings on this forum are opinions, and the opinions have differed here regarding the Dillon's rule. They do state unequivacly that it doesn't violate state law, and that the supreme court would back it up. I agree that it would have helped to have specific research cited, but I am sure googling the terms will assist you in finding reseach (pro and con) on the issue of socio-economic diversity.

I merely posted it because it ties in with the thread, and of course with the lawsuit. Interesting view that they are trying to drum up business from school boards..do you mean they hope to be called as "expert witnesses?" in the trial?

Given the high concentration of low-income people in Reston, the correct action should have been to bus these children out of their neighborhoods to surrounding schools. There are just to many of them to water down the numbers by adding the likes of Fox Mill and Floris. Not that any of the affected low-incomers would have welcomed that, but it is the only way to balance out the numbers. Perhaps then people would not object as much to SLHS.

With the planned addition of more apartments and low income housing to the Reston area, the problem will continue to fester for years to come.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Sorry - but there are ill-informed parents who
> > don't even have kids at South Lakes or who
> already
> > have filled out their kids' MIT applications
> and
> > are loaded for bear. They will be heard if they
> > are willing to listen and learn. But if they
> come
> > in with all four guns drawn, they won't get
> much
> > respect. And won't deserve it. That goes for
> ANY
> > newcomer at ANY school.
> >
> > And do these loaded parents really think that
> > parents who have been working on behalf of that
> > school, some for decades, know better than THEY
> do
> > about how to improve the school?? THOSE parents
> > finally got Bruce in there, finally got RD
> done,
> > and finally are getting the changes that
> Rodriguez
> > was too weak to make and the school board too
> > neglectful to support. Scores and participation
> > and all kinds of other "parameters" are
> improving
> > across the board since Bruce got there and
> started
> > listening to parents and teachers.
> >
> > Some of these new anti-SL and anti-IB parents
> have
> > no clue about anything related to SLHS and are
> > ready to change it all to suit their own
> selfish
> > agendas.
> >
> > Do not forget that many of these anti-IB
> parents
> > cared not a whit on a shingle about IB or knew
> a
> > lick about it when all this started. It was all
> > about the "poverty," scores, and yes, races
> there.
> > And their singularly psychotic competitive
> > personalities related to college resumes. They
> > made up anti-IB rhetoric to legitimize their
> > agendas and have since skewed everything they
> hear
> > to lambaste the program - because god forbid
> they
> > should have been wrong.
> >
> > Many of these parents are thankfully placing
> out
> > of SLHS. Many others have come around -
> literally
> > to the school - and seen the good things it
> does
> > and heard the facts are changing their tune.
> The
> > others are just plain ignorant.
>
> Wow. You are still SO angry, despite the fact that
> you say that South Lakes parents have gotten
> everything they wanted. No wonder people still
> don't want to send their children to a school with
> such angry, nasty, mean spirited, elitist,
> I-know-better-than-you parents.

Honestly, every time I think that MAYBE I could live with my child attending SLHS (several years in the future, if AP is added) some b%^&h screams at us about what a bunch of ignorant losers we are, how dare we think we could have any impact on the school, it's THEIR school, etc etc. I can't believe that you are so tone deaf as to be unaware of the effect of your diatribes. Come on lawsuit!!

Rumor,

Things are much much more competitive than when I was growing up, and I am sure most parents would agree. I took Algebra in 8th grade, and this was considered advanced. Nowadays, you are not considered a top math student if you do this. Across the board, kids are expected to read, write, analyze and do higher level math at earlier and earlier ages. The point is not to debate the merits or demerits of this -- it simply is the case.

Consequently, while family environment is of keen importance, schools have to add a lot to the equation as well. Across the board in Fairfax County -- regardless of Pyrmaid -- this appears to be a hit or miss proposition depending on the teacher. There are some teachers who really teach kids how to do higher level math, give challenging problems, differentiate in the classroom, analyze text and teach kids how to write. There are many many other teachers who teach the content that is assigned to them in the Standards of Learning and that's it.

Due to the lack of control that parents have on who the principal will be (which sets the tone for the entire school) and who their teacher will be, parents focus on those elements which they believe will have a beneficial impact on their kids' education -- socioeconomics. In part they are right -- it's better to have kids who have similar educational goals and abilities in the same classroom since the higher the mean, the higher the level of the classroom instruction. In part they are wrong -- it doesn't have anything to do with level of wealth per se, though of course there are strong correlations.

I believe blending classes with SL and HL is the wrong route to go, and parents have legitimate concerns regarding this. I also believe that given the high stakes involved in today's educational environment, schools have a huge role to play and that not everything can come down to the parents. Kids deserve to be involved in sports and many other things -- if parents have to fill in gaps on the side, this takes away time from kids to engage in things they can only pursue when they are young.

Schools with higher percentages of kids in poverty should not have to adhere to the same teacher student ratios as other schools in the County -- we already have policies in place to address this. But they are insufficient because the ratios in place for schools like SL are still too high -- if you need a classroom of 15 to serve a given population, then you do it.

Observer


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Observer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Parents will always do what they think is in
> the
> > best interest of their children. If this means
> > complaining in certain instances, then they
> will
> > do it. If their time is better served focusing
> on
> > other things, then I imagine they will do this,
> > instead.
> >
> > Not all AP schools are the same. If this were
> the
> > case, an AP high school in Anacostia would be
> the
> > same as one in Fairfax County. It's not.
> >
> > Having said this, socioeconomics are not
> > everything. I myself grew up in a working
> class
> > neighborhood and broke out. There are many
> > parents with lower means who value education
> more
> > than a rich kid who has a trust fund. However,
> > with weak schools in the SL pyramid that
> continues
> > to be unaddressed and excuses 'round every
> corner
> > on why we can't possibly improve Dogwood, Lake
> > Anne and the like, many many students in
> Langston
> > Hughes and SL are dealing with the
> ramifications
> > of this.
> >
> > Hunters Woods is now going downhill under
> Olivia
> > Toatley. She is driving parents out of the
> school
> > and there is now a campaign by some individuals
> in
> > the school -- some of whom are in the PTA -- to
> > drive her out. The rapid decline of Hunters
> Woods
> > does not bode well for the SL pyramid overall.
> > The SL pyramid is losing their own kids before
> > they even get to SL, where Bruce Butler has
> > effected tremendous changes in a short period
> of
> > time. Unless there is concerted pressure to
> move
> > bad elementary school principals out in the SL
> > pyramid, much of what Bruce Butler is trying to
> > accomplish will necessarily be undermined.
> >
> Right, not all AP schools or courses are the same.
> The differences boil down to what? What are the
> differences between AP classes in Fairfax and AP
> classes in Anacostia? What are the differences
> between South Lakes in Fairfax and Oakton? Since,
> as you say, parents will do what they need to do,
> is the solution simply switching to AP from IB, I
> think you would disagree with that based on what
> you said. Thus, it does boil down to
> socioeconomics and the perceived differences that
> exist. If an AP course with open enrollment in a
> particular school might end up not being rigorous
> enough for the students to achieve a 3 on the
> exam, wouldn't that equal your concerns about SL
> and HL being in the same course? And really,
> since SL is one year and HL two, I would assume
> that there could indeed be justifiable reasons for
> mixing in the first year...the second year would
> only be HL conceivably..because SL doesn't mean
> "less rigorous" but rather less material covered,
> less depth..hence the second year for HL, right?
>
> I am not aware of the issues you have described in
> the ES's in the pyramid (meaning I am not aware of
> issues with new principals). Clearly that will
> affect South Lakes down the road. But, if that is
> just now occuring, what makes South Lakes not up
> to "par" now?
>
> You have said that based on your own childhood you
> truly understand it is the family and its' value
> towards education..so if you create that
> understanding with your kids, they will flourish
> anywhere (with perhaps the exception of schools in
> Anacostia that don't have current textbooks or
> libraries available to their students, thus the
> real problem of NCLB..can't compare a school with
> no access to a library to even the worst off FCPS
> school).

Neen good luck. I heard someone say that he had asked the same question about demographics of students who graduated with an IB diploma. Response from staff: Don't have that information. This was asked of someone directly connected to the IB Diploma Program at SL. Also, I believe that Dr. Gordon was asked in a public meeting about the demographics of the students who graduated with an IB diploma (55?), she said those stats were not available.

What are they trying to hide?








Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> get ready for the silence Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To the rabid SLHS cheerleader-
> >
> > Since your group has done such a wonderful job
> at
> > your school, could you provide me with the
> > following information (I am sure you have
> it-given
> > your broad knowledge of the school):
> >
> > 1. What are the dropout numbers broken down by
> > race for SLHS for the past 5 years?
> >
> > 2. What percentage of minorities participate
> in
> > your wonderful IB program? How many courses do
> > they take? How many are full diploma
> candidates?
> >
> > 3. What percentage of minoroties take SAT and
> ACT
> > at your school?
> >
> > I have filed a FOIA for the following-but have
> not
> > received a response yet. Since you are so
> proud
> > of your results, I am sure you would be willing
> to
> > brag about your great numbers.
> >
> > I am waiting for your response.
>
> I would caution about asking for dropout rates
> without being more specific. FCPS has a unique
> way of determining graduation rates. They figure
> them based on how many students enter 12th grade
> and how many of those students graduate. The rest
> of the world looks at students who enter 9th grade
> and then graduate 4 years later. FCPS ignores
> students who dropout during 9th, 10th, 11th
> grades, when they figure graduation rates.

Neen Wrote:

>
> Yes. If a course is being dumbed down, parents
> should complain.


I had thought you were for open enrollment for AP, based on your statements that a school can't place restrictions on pupil placing into an AP school based on gpa or teacher rec.

Clearly if there is true open enrollment in the AP schools, there will be at least a section or 2 that is, as you put it, being "dumbed down"

How do you advocate for both open enrollment and fighting a course being dumbed down?

If Ciolfi and Ryan are right, they make a wonderful argument for a massive restructuring of the Langley district - and moving a great number of their students to Herndon, Reston, McLean, South Lakes, etc. as the case may be. Unfortunately, what was done in the RD won't make their point, inasmuch as the number of middle class students "chosen" to make the exodus to South Lakes won't be in numbers sufficient to verify their position, and that the criteria for the selection of those compelled to make the march seemed to center around their relative lack of political power as opposed to any objectively verifiable educational gains. Of course, Ciolfi and Ryan ought to be a bit careful - many of their generous alumni live in the Langley district, and it might be difficult to build glitzy new Hunton and Williams wings of the law school (UVa's penchant to name significant portions of their law school edifice after the major law firms that contribute there signals to a fare thee well that the law is about who gets the money) in the future if they hit these constituents where they surely will hurt - the education of their children. As I have said before, the elite are not going on any sort of forced marches here.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Education Week, June 14, 2008
> by Angela Ciolfi & James E. Ryan
>
> What if all the poor kids in a large school
> district went to the same school? Could the school
> board do anything about it? One might think the
> answer is obviously yes, but not everyone agrees.
> Eleven parents in Fairfax County, Va., recently
> filed a lawsuit claiming, among other things, that
> the school board exceeded its authority by taking
> socioeconomic factors into account when redrawing
> attendance zones. The issue is a significant one,
> with implications for school districts across the
> country that either already consider student
> demographics when drawing attendance zones or plan
> to do so in the future.
> Redrawing attendance zones is an unavoidably
> messy, inherently political, and inevitably
> emotional exercise, and we express no opinion on
> the overall merits of the Fairfax County plan or
> the various complaints made against it. But the
> claim that school boards cannot consider student
> poverty when drawing attendance zones is simply
> wrong and must be rejected.
> To begin with, considering socioeconomic status
> when assigning students to school definitely does
> not violate the U.S. Constitution. The U.S.
> Supreme Court, in a decision last June, limited
> the extent to which race may be considered in
> school assignments, but it did not and has not
> limited the ability of school boards to take
> socioeconomic status into account. Indeed, if
> anything, the court’s decision limiting the use of
> race encourages school boards to consider other
> factors, such as socioeconomic status, as a means
> of creating a diverse student body.
> Considering socioeconomic status does not violate
> state law either. In Virginia, as in other states,
> school boards have broad legal authority to redraw
> school boundaries. Under Virginia law, for
> example, school boards can redraw attendance zones
> whenever doing so “will contribute to the
> efficiency of the school division.” This is a
> fairly open-ended grant of discretion, which, at
> the very least, must allow boards to draw
> attendance boundaries in a way that promises to
> increase academic performance in a cost-effective
> manner. Delivering more for less, after all, is
> the epitome of efficiency.
> That is exactly what socioeconomic integration
> promises: more academic benefit for less money
> than under alternative policies. More than 40
> years of social science research shows that the
> socioeconomic composition of a child’s school has
> an effect on academic performance over and above
> that of the socioeconomic status of the child’s
> family. Here in Virginia, a 2003 report
> commissioned by the legislature found that the
> greatest predictor of achievement on the state
> Standards of Learning tests was the level of
> student poverty in the school district. It’s not
> hard to understand why. High-poverty schools have
> to address not only the unmet physical, social,
> and emotional needs of their individual students,
> but also the cumulative effects of concentrated
> poverty in a single school.
> Socioeconomic integration can help disadvantaged
> students without harming their middle-income
> peers.Meeting the additional needs of poor
> students and overcoming the effects of poverty are
> not impossible tasks, but they can be
> extraordinarily expensive ones. Many programs,
> such as reducing class sizes or paying good
> teachers more to teach in high-poverty schools,
> can help, but they cost real money. Virginia,
> unfortunately, provides relatively little
> additional funding to address the challenges of
> educating students in schools of concentrated
> poverty, letting this burden fall largely on local
> governments.
> A less expensive alternative, and one that can be
> just as effective, is to integrate schools by
> socioeconomic status. Time and again, studies have
> shown that creating predominantly middle-income
> schools can have a positive effect on the test
> scores of students at the bottom, without
> negatively affecting the scores of students at the
> top. That’s right: Socioeconomic integration can
> help disadvantaged students without harming their
> middle-income peers. That seems too good to be
> true, and middle-income parents have a hard time
> believing it, which probably explains the lawsuit
> in Fairfax County. But that is indeed what the
> research suggests.
> --------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Socioeconomic integration is not a silver bullet,
> and there is no guarantee that it will work every
> time for every student. But the evidence strongly
> indicates that breaking up schools of concentrated
> poverty is a cost-effective strategy to increase
> academic achievement, which is always important
> but especially so in this era of the No Child Left
> Behind Act. Socioeconomic integration is also a
> way to create more-diverse schools and to
> recapture the notion, central to the very origins
> of public education, that public schools should
> serve rich and poor equally and together.
> The Fairfax County school board surely acted
> within its discretion in trying to avoid schools
> of concentrated poverty, and its decision should
> be upheld, not second-guessed, by the courts.
> Indeed, we should be applauding school boards that
> are trying to improve schools while saving the
> taxpayers some moneynot taking them to court.
> Angela Ciolfi is an attorney for the JustChldren
> Program of the Legal Aid Justice Center, in
> Charlottesville, Va. James E. Ryan is a professor
> of law at the University of Virginia, also in
> Charlottesville.
> Vol. 27, Issue 42, Page 28

I believe this article is correct on the law, suspect on the social science, and irrelevant as to whether the latest RD in our county was, in fact, a fair one. Regardless of whether a wine-and-cheese UVA professor feels otherwise, we should not be "applauding" school boards that, while espousing socio-economic goals, leave the wealthiest communities unscathed while upending the hopes of middle-class areas.

end is near Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The lawsuit will end this madness and this thread.
> School Board is going to lose and old boundaries
> will be restored. Just wait a couple more weeks.

Good one! LMAO

here we go again! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, in response to an inquiry about Coppermine
> redistricting study, Tisdadt wrote that his staff
> will recommend no High School changes be part of
> the study. However, he said a final
> recommendationn about middle schools will come
> later.
>
> What he is doing is waiting for the lawsuit to
> end. The plan is to move Fox Mill and Floris (the
> part now at SL) from Rachel Carson to Langston
> Hughes, so as to restore the pyramid and to give
> these kids the benefit of the IB middle years
> program. JI is ending at Floris, so the JI
> teachers at Carson will also go to Hughes.
>
> If you are in favor of moving Floris and Fox Mill
> to Hughes, good for you. If you are opposed,
> consider donating to CAPS and writing to your SB
> member (for whatever good that will do).


Coppermine is the next social engineering experiment. Riddle me this. How do you fix 2 elementary schools failing AYP by placing a new school in between them with the same demographic?

Answer: Why Batman, we use your kids. Even if it doesn't work you are stuck at Coppermine until it fails AYP for 2 years. All the kids transferred from McNair will be forced back

As a Fox Mill single mother who struggled mightily to buy my house so my kids could attend Oakton, the utter contempt I have for the school board and the SLPTSA is beyond imagining, not the least reason being I moved out of Reston in the first place 7 years ago to get away from South Lakes. If it's true that they want to move us into Langston Hughes on top of that, it's intolerable. It's like a plague that is moving from Reston to Herndon and where it stops nobody knows.

Interesting though, because I specifically asked Stu if Fox Mill/Carson was going to be sent to Hughes and he said, "Absolutely not". Whatever Stu. Since there is no way my kids are going to Hughes or South Lakes, it's time to move to a "safety zone". Considering the number of houses in Fox Mill for sale, that should be fun. Hey you SL thieves with your open arms, how about just buying up our neighborhood and be done with it, at least then we can get the hell out.

Of course this will have to be after July 3rd, just in case...

Since no other parent groups represent Oakton we are starting a new parent coalition group in Oakton. We are calling the new group "OaktonARKs"-The Oakton Anti-Redistricting for Kids coalition group. Only parents of kids who attend or formally attended Oakton schools will be allowed to participate.

In short three months we have already established 6 regular members(3 couples\parents) and we are growing quickly. At the rate we are growing we will soon double in size in the coming months.

We understand where the flaws were in the orginal FairfaxCAPS lawsuit and we are preparing our own. One of the wives has a son who is just graduating law school and he will be filing our lawsuit for us.

Another of our members has a high school kid who is very talented at websites and we will soon have our own website up, hopefully oakarks.com.

We plan to meet next Sunday after the soccer games on the field at Oakton high school. We will have some milk and cookies for all who attend.

Hope to see every one there.

I think Fairfax parents are ridiculous...all their kids are "geniuses" all must go to the best colleges....and G-d forbid you give the little darlings a bad grade...I actually have had parents return papers "pre graded" by them. I also had a parent do a geometry project for his dim witted son on auto cad and thought I wouldn't notice...The parents run the schools in Fairfax county not educators...

Pod Teacher --

Allow me to share with you the perspective of many parents.

1. Teachers are uncomfortable teaching real math and cling to an inferior Everyday Math Curriculum to the detriment of kids.

2. Teachers are not helping kids learn how to write and very few give kids any real constructive criticism on their writing anymore.

3. Teachers tell you the only thing they are obligated to teach your children is the material in the SOLs and anything beyond this is above and beyond and not to be expected.

4. Teachers tell you they differentiate but they never do.

5. Teachers sometimes distribute grades arbitrarily and use class participation measures to favor those students they like the most.

6. Teachers are unknowledgable about many common learning disabilities and fail to enforce 504s or IEPs.

7. Teachers take in-service days to take seminars that have no real bearing on their children's education.

8. Teachers were at the bottom of their classes in high school and chose teaching because it's an easier degree to get.

9. Teachers vote lockstep with the NEA.

I take the liberty that you don't like stereotypes of teachers. So why are you doing the same thing to parents? We're supposed to be on the same page of helping kids, and I don't get how dragging parents through the mud helps your cause. On the one hand, FCPS blames parents who aren't involved and say poor students can't succeed due to lack of support at home. On the other hand, involved parents get a thrashing from teachers and administrators for being too involved and concerned and wanting their kids to get the best education. You can't have it both ways.





pod teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Fairfax parents are ridiculous...all their
> kids are "geniuses" all must go to the best
> colleges....and G-d forbid you give the little
> darlings a bad grade...I actually have had parents
> return papers "pre graded" by them. I also had a
> parent do a geometry project for his dim witted
> son on auto cad and thought I wouldn't
> notice...The parents run the schools in Fairfax
> county not educators...

here we go again! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, in response to an inquiry about Coppermine
> redistricting study, Tisdadt wrote that his staff
> will recommend no High School changes be part of
> the study. However, he said a final
> recommendationn about middle schools will come
> later.
>
> What he is doing is waiting for the lawsuit to
> end. The plan is to move Fox Mill and Floris (the
> part now at SL) from Rachel Carson to Langston
> Hughes, so as to restore the pyramid and to give
> these kids the benefit of the IB middle years
> program. JI is ending at Floris, so the JI
> teachers at Carson will also go to Hughes.
>
> If you are in favor of moving Floris and Fox Mill
> to Hughes, good for you. If you are opposed,
> consider donating to CAPS and writing to your SB
> member (for whatever good that will do).

Ah yes, that makes sense. They can move new students into Hughes at the same time they abolish middle school GT centers. At that time they will return Herndon GT students to Herndon middle school and will need new students at Hughes. Floris and Fox Mill will be perfect to fill those spaces.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> still waiting on who pays the extra cost for IB
> since Montco parents pay at least some of it.
> What about the 3 tiers- reg, standard, higher? Why
> can't AP schools have honors with a .5 bump?

Fairgrade would agree with you. FCPS discourages students from taking Honors classes when they don't give any extra credit for taking them. Students must do more work for Honors classes, and risk a lower grade. Since GPA's are the most important thing when applying to college, many students realize the benefit to taking a regular course with an easy A, over an Honors class. FCPS should be like every other district, a full point for AP and at least a .5 for Honors classes. Without that, there is simply no incentive for taking Honors classes, but a disincentive. Is that what we want to encourage? Apparently staff does.

I dont think so Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The above article is not a scholarly study. It is
> just an opinion piece. The article does not
> evaluate the history of Dillons Rule vis-a-vis
> school board actions etc. That is, the question
> is not whether gerrymandering to distribute
> impovershed kids is good for the kids...the
> question is whether the legislature gave the SB
> the power to do so. Dillon's rule exists to keep
> local governments in check...they only have the
> powers expressly given. One person's noble social
> experiment is another's crass discrimination.
>
> Also, the article states, without statistics or
> even reference, that kids improve when mixed.
> While I like the idea, to be a serious article, it
> needs to back up the pop psychology with facts.
> What schools were studied in a before/after
> scenario? What improvements were seen...and for
> who? Was there any evidence of "a down side" to
> the change.
>
> Basically, the article is an attempt by a
> lawyer/professor to pontificate and drum up some
> work from school boards etc. It is all fluff.


Educrats love opinions. They don't care about statistics or evidence. Feelings and opinions are good enough for them. And good enough for our children too, whether we like it or not.

rd huge step backward Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The RD is a huge step backward. Instead of
> improving FCPS school standards, now major new
> area of FM, Floris and MI now fall in the failing
> school area category. These areas were under the
> best schools and now we have widened the problem
> of low performing schools. The only logical
> solution was to shutdown SL instead of pouring 60
> million down the drain. 60 million could have
> added the capacity at Langley, Oakton and Madison
> to absorb the 1300 students from SL. Everyone
> would have won including the 1300 students at SL.
> Now 2100 students lose and the taxpayer sees 60
> million go waste.

The 1300 students could easily have been absorbed by the surrounding schools over the next 4 to 6 years. There was no reason to renovate that ugly, windowless, school.

Cary, please put these posters out of their misery and close this thread. They are in need of a life.

pod teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Fairfax parents are ridiculous...all their
> kids are "geniuses" all must go to the best
> colleges....and G-d forbid you give the little
> darlings a bad grade...I actually have had parents
> return papers "pre graded" by them. I also had a
> parent do a geometry project for his dim witted
> son on auto cad and thought I wouldn't
> notice...The parents run the schools in Fairfax
> county not educators...

I shudder to think that you might be teaching my kids.

How nice that a parent would take the time to grade their child's paper. How horrible that you would call any student 'dim witted'.

Thank heaven for parents in FCPS. Without them students would be learning nothing from nasty teachers like you. Parents are responsible for sending smart kids to your class room. Parents are responsible for making sure that your kids do their homework. It's parents who make sure that their kids get tutors to teach them the math, reading and writing, things our schools no longer teach our kids. If you don't like the parents in FCPS, may I suggest you teach in Washington DC where parents are rarely involved. You might be more comfortable in such an environment.

Why shouldn't parents be running the schools? Parents are paying the bills, and your inflated salary. In the normal world, those who pay the bills run things. Only an educrat would think that it should be otherwise.

You are a truly horrible example of the attitude of the teachers in our county toward the students they teach and their parents. It's frightening to parents of young children. VERY frightening.

Please consider a school in DC. You'll never have to deal with parents, ever. You will be secure in the knowledge that only educrats will ever have any say in your school. NO parental involvement, EVER. I hear DC pays well too. Consider it, please.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> I believe this article is correct on the law,
> suspect on the social science, and irrelevant as
> to whether the latest RD in our county was, in
> fact, a fair one. Regardless of whether a
> wine-and-cheese UVA professor feels otherwise, we
> should not be "applauding" school boards that,
> while espousing socio-economic goals, leave the
> wealthiest communities unscathed while upending
> the hopes of middle-class areas.

Why are schools involved in social engineering? Why can't they just educate our children and leave the other stuff to department of social services?

schools or social work? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not So Obvious Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> > I believe this article is correct on the law,
> > suspect on the social science, and irrelevant
> as
> > to whether the latest RD in our county was, in
> > fact, a fair one. Regardless of whether a
> > wine-and-cheese UVA professor feels otherwise,
> we
> > should not be "applauding" school boards that,
> > while espousing socio-economic goals, leave the
> > wealthiest communities unscathed while upending
> > the hopes of middle-class areas.
>
> Why are schools involved in social engineering?
> Why can't they just educate our children and leave
> the other stuff to department of social services?

Alas, social services departments across the nation are woefully understaffed for the vast needs of the children they try to help. So many children come to school with such extreme needs and teachers are the adult present to attempt to help them cope. All that before they can even begin to educate. If half of you spent the half your posting time volunteering to help in a classroom (not for your child's classroom); ask to be placed in one with a child that has social needs that you can help out with, even as a mentor/friend or lunch buddy for that child, you would do more good than all the whining that goes on here on this forum.

Protective Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I shudder to think that you might be teaching my
> kids.
>
> How nice that a parent would take the time to
> grade their child's paper. How horrible that you
> would call any student 'dim witted'.

> Why shouldn't parents be running the schools?
> Parents are paying the bills, and your inflated
> salaries. In the normal world, those who pay the
> bills run things. Only an educrat would think
> that it should be otherwise.

If you're already grading your kids work why not just home school them and stop complaining about public school education?

While "parents are paying the bills" tell them to raise our salary. Car mechanics and painters make more than teachers in this county.

Oakton Teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>If you're already grading your kids work why not just home school them and stop complaining about public school education?

While "parents are paying the bills" tell them to raise our salary. Car mechanics and painters make more than teachers in this county.<<<

Oh really? Which new college graduates make $45,000 a year for working 3/4 of the year? Which new workers make $4,500 a month? Tell us about all of those jobs. As I recall, teachers make about $29 an hour. Please tell us which jobs pay that for kids right out of college. After 30 years teachers can retire at 90% of their salary, making more than a retired General or Admiral. So, please, stop with the boohooing about being underpaid. Talk to any fire fighter, Army LT, Police officer, nurse, new store manager,restaurant manager, or social worker (all requiring degrees) and tell them how much you make. Let us know how much sympathy you garner. And how hard they laugh.

I can positively guarantee that my painter does not make $4,500 a month for every month that he works. Nor does my mechanic, but he would love to. The best mechanic I know makes $50,000, with 10 years experience and FULL TIME, 12 months a year, no 11 weeks off in the summer, 2 weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring, personal leave days, and certainly no huge retirement.

I am certain you are aware than many, many, parents who send their children to school also home school. They spend hours after school teaching their children or taking them to tutors for teaching. On weekends they do more schooling, in addition to Kumon math classes, Score learning centers, writing turors, science classes, music classes, Chinese school, Korean school (both of those do much more teaching than just their native languages. In the summer parents send their children to math camps, writing camps, science camps, computer camps, CTY, and the UVA SEP program so that their children can learn what they didn't learn during the school year. For many parents, especially Asians, school is viewed as little more than babysitting/socializing because the real education takes place once the children are home from school.

I doubt the SB wants to walk down the RD path with Fox Mill and Floris again. But if the GT Center at Hughes were closed, the school would most certainly fail NCLB. And the only way to fix that would be to add students to the mix. Hughes is a dreadful environment, much worse than SLHS. They should consider closing it down.

Be careful for what you wish for. If all the involved parents yanked their kids from the school, your school would likely not make AYP -- not by a long shot.

I've often thought how interesting it would be to ask all parents in Ffx Cty who read and write and do math at home with their child (outside of any assigned homework) to stay home from the SOLs and see where things end up. How much you want to make a bet that you pass scores would plummet?

If you wish for more money, buck the teacher's unions and demand merit pay. I'll gladly pay you more if I didn't have to teach my child writing and math because the instruction is woefully inadequate in the schools. In fact, I'd pay you a lot more. But don't tell me you only teach content on the SOLs and think you deserve 10K more a year for this, because you don't.



Oakton Teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Protective Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I shudder to think that you might be teaching
> my
> > kids.
> >
> > How nice that a parent would take the time to
> > grade their child's paper. How horrible that
> you
> > would call any student 'dim witted'.
>
> > Why shouldn't parents be running the schools?
> > Parents are paying the bills, and your inflated
> > salaries. In the normal world, those who pay
> the
> > bills run things. Only an educrat would think
> > that it should be otherwise.
>
> If you're already grading your kids work why not
> just home school them and stop complaining about
> public school education?
>
> While "parents are paying the bills" tell them to
> raise our salary. Car mechanics and painters make
> more than teachers in this county.

Word, the authority on all things Reston! Thanks so much for your input.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I doubt the SB wants to walk down the RD path with
> Fox Mill and Floris again. But if the GT Center at
> Hughes were closed, the school would most
> certainly fail NCLB. And the only way to fix that
> would be to add students to the mix. Hughes is a
> dreadful environment, much worse than SLHS. They
> should consider closing it down.

If you are suggesting that if the GT center at Hughes was to be closed, in order to keep Hughes afloat from failing the NCLB, we would need to add more kids..are you talking about high performing kids?

It seems certain that the SB is going to move Fox Mill (and maybe part of Floris) from Fox Mill to Langston Hughes. They want to improve the general scores of the school, so as to balance Carson and Hughes. The SLPTA and others are also in support of this move. All the reasons for and against the Oakton-to-SL move will apply. Now is the time to argue (not that it will have an impact). If the lawsuit wins, it is unlikely to happen. So, if you like Carson, donate to CAPS. If you are in SL domain, hope the suit loses.

I accidentally posted on the wrong thread.

I attended Lee's graduation yesterday and in the program they list 398 graduates and 47 full IB diploma candidates. I would guess that half are minorities.