Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> While I am not Taylor, I do know that students at
> Hughes and South Lakes can retake their tests
> until they get the score that they want. However,
> that has nothing to do with the IB program. IB
> tests are not graded at South Lakes, they are
> graded in Europe. Students can not take the IB
> tests over and over as they are able to do at
> South Lakes.


You are not Taylor, but you are a despicable, pathetic, and ill liar. You spew bile 90 times a night. And you get corrected and remanded constantly, yet continue to spew.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> edna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To Taylor, a SL student.
> >
> > Taylor, you said that you were a SL student,
> > therefore, I have an academic question for you.
>
> >
> > I have heard that for students in the IB
> diploma
> > program, if they take an exam and miss some
> > questions, after further review, the teacher
> will
> > give the student a second opportunity to
> respond
> > to the questions. It is this last score that
> will
> > account for the grade.
> >
> > As it was explained, just because a student
> > doesn't know the answer on Tuesday (test day),
> > does not mean that after review, the student
> could
> > get the correct answer on Thursday (second test
> > day).
> >
> > Could you please explain if I am hearing
> correct
> > or incorrect information? If anyone else knows
> > the answer, please feel free to respond.
> Thanks.
>
> While I am not Taylor, I do know that students at
> Hughes and South Lakes can retake their tests
> until they get the score that they want. However,
> that has nothing to do with the IB program. IB
> tests are not graded at South Lakes, they are
> graded in Europe. Students can not take the IB
> tests over and over as they are able to do at
> South Lakes.

Neen, your response to this silly rumor is odd. I don't know if kids can retake simple tests at South Lakes or any other school, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility that a teacher will offer a retake, and make some decision about what the grade will be as a result of having a second chance.

But, IB exams are not taken again at any school. You must not have read my previous response to Edna. As you even state, IB exams are graded in Europe..no chance for South Lakes therefore to offer a kid a re-test.

I think you and others have complained or commented on that lack of make up days for IB..so kids who are ill are compelled to show up. There are no make up dates, therefore no chances to re-take an IB exam.

Your last sentence Neen, is completely false. Students at South Lakes DO NOT retake IB tests.

There may be a lot you know about schools your children aren't attending nor have ever attended; but in this case you are completely off base.

I think that those who claim to be "experts" on topics should refrain from posting false information-you just make yourself look stupid.

According to the October 2007 QPAS for Young Scholars, the following information was listed in the report:

1. the estimated range of cost per student in YS is between $366 and $439. The poster who state that this program has no costs is wrong.

2. A quote from page 3, "Overall YS students did not perform better than nor did they lose ground to their non YS counterparts on the percent of students passing SOL math and reading (grades 3 and 5) and history (grade 6) tests in 2004-05 and 2005-06.

FCPS actually gave themselves a rating of "3" on a 5 point scale on the measurement of achieveing adequate progess on outcomes.

It seems this program is about quantity and not quality. The goal is to get the enrollment numbers up but there does not seem to be a concern about performance.

Young Scholars QPAS - the information you cite is helpful - although I recognize that it may be too early to draw any conclusions.

But if your preliminary premise is correct - it confirms my assumptions about these programs.

Query how many kids in YS don't pass SOL's - this data is available - and if they can't pass SOL's - no matter how well intentioned the program, they shouldn't be in GT. They ought to be in classes that prepare them for the SOL's. But I am likely reaching - although an answer that some YS kids struggle with SOL's would not surprise me.

It is nice from an appearance perspective to have more kids of certain groups in GT classrooms - but if the program doesn't demonstrate results, then it should be discontinued - especially in tight budget times where returns on investment frankly ought to justified. But even more to the point than fiscal issues, if the results do not improve, it exposes a fundamental assumption of the program as a fallacy - that is - that certain students only need to be identified and nurtured for their giftedness to be manifest - and that the failure of certain groups to participate in gifted programs is due to the lack such early identification and nurturing. As painful as it is, the conclusion may well be is that there are indeed talent differences among groups, and while we can suppose (or hope) that that the differences can be reduced over generations, they won't be reduced for the current students merely due to programs that give preference only to identified racial groups and do little more than impart a top down sense of self esteem. Put bluntly, no special program is going to close a gap between a 115 IQ kid (note still well above average) and a 140 plus IQ kid - of which there are a number here in Fairfax County. And if that 115 kid is not well matched to a suitable curricula, they in fact will suffer rather than prosper - all in the name of making appearances, or 'quantity", look better.

It is difficult to be in the public schools. Everyone wants to see higher participation of certain groups in GT classes - it pains everyone why it is so low - and to mention that a program with fine intentions may not be doing any good is tantamount in progressive circles to blasphemy of the most extreme kind. But in the end, it should be less about appearances and more about plain competency - in reading, writing and computation - and getting as many students as possible up to the most proficient levels to which they are capable.

Note that my opinions may be too strong - YS may just be the potion to cure these problems - and it has not been given a chance. But if YS iterative flow charts and condescending (but its nature) approach works - it will be a unique event in American education - and I remain skeptical.

Quest is another brainchild of FCPS that appears to lack results. It was introduced in 1998 as a program to encourage students to take advanced classes. In 2004 after FCPS realized that few if any Blacks and Hispanics were participating, they geared it toward minorities. Here are some of the highlights from the 2006 Evaluation Report:

86% of principals indicated that Quest content did not relate to either SOL or POS.

95% of principals do not believe that QUEST will account for greater enrollent at TJHS.

92% of principals did not think that Quest will lead to enrollment in pre-IB courses.

12% of principals felt that teachers were adequately prepared to teach the QUEST curriculum.

I am not making this crap up guys-obviously the educators have no faith in this program. How do they expect this to make an impact?

In the September 2007 report, they disclose the number of participants in QUEST. As of 1/2007 there were 367 students. 135 6th graders, 109 7th graders and 123 8th graders. The cost is approximately $459 per student. The students receive 8 hours of supplemental instruction per month-2 Saturday sessions and 60 hours over the summer-although not all of the students attend the summer program.

In 7 comparisons, 3 showed QUEST students had higher pass rates than non-QUEST students and 4 had identical pass rates.

Here is my favorite.....43% of teachers, 29% of principals feel that QUEST prepares students for high school advanced programs.

Their own people doubt the success of this program.

Boundary Warrior Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > While I am not Taylor, I do know that students
> at
> > Hughes and South Lakes can retake their tests
> > until they get the score that they want.
> However,
> > that has nothing to do with the IB program. IB
> > tests are not graded at South Lakes, they are
> > graded in Europe. Students can not take the IB
> > tests over and over as they are able to do at
> > South Lakes.
>
>
> You are not Taylor, but you are a despicable,
> pathetic, and ill liar. You spew bile 90 times a
> night. And you get corrected and remanded
> constantly, yet continue to spew.

My, my, someone is woke up on the wrong side of the cage.

Hope they feed you soon and you feel better!

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > edna Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > To Taylor, a SL student.
> > >
> > > Taylor, you said that you were a SL student,
> > > therefore, I have an academic question for
> you.
> >
> > >
> > > I have heard that for students in the IB
> > diploma
> > > program, if they take an exam and miss some
> > > questions, after further review, the teacher
> > will
> > > give the student a second opportunity to
> > respond
> > > to the questions. It is this last score that
> > will
> > > account for the grade.
> > >
> > > As it was explained, just because a student
> > > doesn't know the answer on Tuesday (test
> day),
> > > does not mean that after review, the student
> > could
> > > get the correct answer on Thursday (second
> test
> > > day).
> > >
> > > Could you please explain if I am hearing
> > correct
> > > or incorrect information? If anyone else
> knows
> > > the answer, please feel free to respond.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > While I am not Taylor, I do know that students
> at
> > Hughes and South Lakes can retake their tests
> > until they get the score that they want.
> However,
> > that has nothing to do with the IB program. IB
> > tests are not graded at South Lakes, they are
> > graded in Europe. Students can not take the IB
> > tests over and over as they are able to do at
> > South Lakes.
>
> Neen, your response to this silly rumor is odd. I
> don't know if kids can retake simple tests at
> South Lakes or any other school, but it isn't out
> of the realm of possibility that a teacher will
> offer a retake, and make some decision about what
> the grade will be as a result of having a second
> chance.
>
> But, IB exams are not taken again at any school.
> You must not have read my previous response to
> Edna. As you even state, IB exams are graded in
> Europe..no chance for South Lakes therefore to
> offer a kid a re-test.
>
> I think you and others have complained or
> commented on that lack of make up days for IB..so
> kids who are ill are compelled to show up. There
> are no make up dates, therefore no chances to
> re-take an IB exam.
>
> Your last sentence Neen, is completely false.
> Students at South Lakes DO NOT retake IB tests.
>
> There may be a lot you know about schools your
> children aren't attending nor have ever attended;
> but in this case you are completely off base.

You need a bit of practicing in your reading comprehension.

I said that students can NOT retake IB tests, several times. Why are you claiming otherwise?

Then you say you know nothing about what is done at SL, but continue to discuss it anyway.

Sheeze. Get a clue, or at least learn to read.

another money pit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quest is another brainchild of FCPS that appears
> to lack results. It was introduced in 1998 as a
> program to encourage students to take advanced
> classes. In 2004 after FCPS realized that few if
> any Blacks and Hispanics were participating, they
> geared it toward minorities. Here are some of the
> highlights from the 2006 Evaluation Report:
>
> 86% of principals indicated that Quest content did
> not relate to either SOL or POS.
>
> 95% of principals do not believe that QUEST will
> account for greater enrollent at TJHS.
>
> 92% of principals did not think that Quest will
> lead to enrollment in pre-IB courses.
>
> 12% of principals felt that teachers were
> adequately prepared to teach the QUEST
> curriculum.
>
> I am not making this crap up guys-obviously the
> educators have no faith in this program. How do
> they expect this to make an impact?
>
> In the September 2007 report, they disclose the
> number of participants in QUEST. As of 1/2007
> there were 367 students. 135 6th graders, 109 7th
> graders and 123 8th graders. The cost is
> approximately $459 per student. The students
> receive 8 hours of supplemental instruction per
> month-2 Saturday sessions and 60 hours over the
> summer-although not all of the students attend the
> summer program.
> Here is my favorite.....43% of teachers, 29% of
> principals feel that QUEST prepares students for
> high school advanced programs.
>

Great post. Can anyone explain why we keep paying for Quest? And why the NAACP was SO upset at the thought of cuts to Quest? One would think they would be demanding a program that actually worked. Why not spend that $168,453 on something that actually helped Black students? That would pay of a lot of private tutoring, among many other more effective things.

Or why not just have effective programs, k-8, that educate the students so that they won't need any special programs to prepare them to take higher level courses?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Young Scholars QPAS - the information you cite is
> helpful - although I recognize that it may be too
> early to draw any conclusions.
>
> But if your preliminary premise is correct - it
> confirms my assumptions about these programs.
>
> Query how many kids in YS don't pass SOL's - this
> data is available - and if they can't pass SOL's -
> no matter how well intentioned the program, they
> shouldn't be in GT. They ought to be in classes
> that prepare them for the SOL's. But I am likely
> reaching - although an answer that some YS kids
> struggle with SOL's would not surprise me.
>
> It is nice from an appearance perspective to have
> more kids of certain groups in GT classrooms - but
> if the program doesn't demonstrate results, then
> it should be discontinued - especially in tight
> budget times where returns on investment frankly
> ought to justified. But even more to the point
> than fiscal issues, if the results do not improve,
> it exposes a fundamental assumption of the program
> as a fallacy - that is - that certain students
> only need to be identified and nurtured for their
> giftedness to be manifest - and that the failure
> of certain groups to participate in gifted
> programs is due to the lack such early
> identification and nurturing. As painful as it
> is, the conclusion may well be is that there are
> indeed talent differences among groups, and while
> we can suppose (or hope) that that the differences
> can be reduced over generations, they won't be
> reduced for the current students merely due to
> programs that give preference only to identified
> racial groups and do little more than impart a top
> down sense of self esteem. Put bluntly, no
> special program is going to close a gap between a
> 115 IQ kid (note still well above average) and a
> 140 plus IQ kid - of which there are a number here
> in Fairfax County. And if that 115 kid is not
> well matched to a suitable curricula, they in fact
> will suffer rather than prosper - all in the name
> of making appearances, or 'quantity", look better.
>
>
> It is difficult to be in the public schools.
> Everyone wants to see higher participation of
> certain groups in GT classes - it pains everyone
> why it is so low - and to mention that a program
> with fine intentions may not be doing any good is
> tantamount in progressive circles to blasphemy of
> the most extreme kind. But in the end, it should
> be less about appearances and more about plain
> competency - in reading, writing and computation -
> and getting as many students as possible up to the
> most proficient levels to which they are capable.
>
>
> Note that my opinions may be too strong - YS may
> just be the potion to cure these problems - and it
> has not been given a chance. But if YS iterative
> flow charts and condescending (but its nature)
> approach works - it will be a unique event in
> American education - and I remain skeptical.

Another great post from Quantum.

Condescending is exactly the right word. If you could hear the presentations about YS, and hear what the teachers say about it, I suspect you would be as appalled as I have been. Their attitudes are extremely condescending and patronizing. They believe that if they just pat these poor little children on the head, often enough, their self esteem will soar, and that is all that is necessary for success. Their patronizing, condescending, attitudes about Black students is nauseating. That's what you are seeing reflected in their little, (but colorful and artistic!) Vin diagram.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Students can not take the
> IB
> > > tests over and over as they are able to do at
> > > South Lakes.
> >

Neen wrote:
> >> You need a bit of practicing in your reading
> comprehension.
>
> I said that students can NOT retake IB tests,
> several times. Why are you claiming otherwise?
>
> Then you say you know nothing about what is done
> at SL, but continue to discuss it anyway.
>
> Sheeze. Get a clue, or at least learn to read.

Please look at what you wrote above, and what I responded to. You said, Students can not take the IB tests, OVER AND OVER AS THEY ARE ABLE TO DO AT SOUTH LAKES

I read what you WROTE. What else could you possibly mean by AS THEY ARE ABLE TO DO AT SOUTH LAKES?? If that is not what you meant then, Sheeze. Get a clue, or at least learn to write.

I pulled this gem from the Westfield HS website under their Minority Achievement Committee which appears to be stacked with Westfield employees. I am always suspicious of these independent committees that are dominated by FCPS staff-I doubt they will be critical of their own failures.

Anyways, they put out this 30 pager titled "Why Minority Achievement?" I will just mention the highlights. Under the section of "Cultural Miscommunication" here are some of the tips for our educators:

Asian students-

Tend to show respect to people who are older or of higher status by remaining silent in their presence.

Tend to avoid expressing any strong emotion-anger/frustration/sadness/joy (unless their shooting up the VA Tech campus, I guess???)

Have been taught to refuse something initially but when asked again they usually will accept

African Amercan students-

It is acceptable to express emotions freely-responsive reading in church, call outs

Tend to be physically active (huh???)

Tend to interpret life events in racial terms especially when outsiders are involved

May come from a different socio-economic level and may have experienced generational poverty

Hispanic students-

Avoid direct eye contact

Are taught not to walk away from confrontation

View time as unimportant because time is often measured agiculturally

Tend to stand very close when talking to each other

White students-

Have low regard for dependent behavior in activities

Show preference for order and control

Place high value on standard English


Do these make sense to anyone? Is it healthy to engage in this type of racial profiling? I just think these generalizations about groups is a dangerous path.

I am really beginning to wonder what FCPS is doing in dealing with these kids.

Neen, if you simply meant to reiterate what I had previously written in response to Edna, that general tests might be re-taken at South Lakes and every other FCPS HS (as they are depending on the teacher's views), then you didn't make it very clear with your last sentence.

You also don't know what goes on in South Lakes since you don't have kids there. I don't either which is why I said I don't "know" for sure what goes on in regards to general tests being re-taken. You frequently post about South Lakes and other issues without truly "knowing" so your comments above about my posting opinions about SL was truly rude and condescending.

Earlier this fall, Mr. Butler from SL gave a presentation at Carson Middle School. During this presentation, he indicated that sometimes students might not know the material on the day that they are tested. They are given the opportunity to continue to learn the material and retested. Not sure how many times they get to retest or until they reach what grade, but I do know that he included this info in his presentation.

rc mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Earlier this fall, Mr. Butler from SL gave a
> presentation at Carson Middle School. During this
> presentation, he indicated that sometimes students
> might not know the material on the day that they
> are tested. They are given the opportunity to
> continue to learn the material and retested. Not
> sure how many times they get to retest or until
> they reach what grade, but I do know that he
> included this info in his presentation.

Many teachers do this, and some schools have it as a school policy. It is essentially teaching to mastery, meaning students are taught the material until they master the material. It has become more popular ever since NCLB came into existence.

As you know, Mr. Butler did not say this policy is in effect for IB exams.

I read an article recently that said many schools steer their minority students to take the ACT instead of the SAT. The reason mentioned was that the schools didn't want their average SAT scores to be lower.

I found a report which stated that 2144 FCPS seniors took the ACT in 2007-although it did not mention the racial breakdown of test takers. Why would any student take the ACT over the SAT?

The ACT test results were as follows:

39% were prepared for college biology
59% were prepared for college algebra
64% were prepared for college social science
80% were prepared for college English Comp.

Overall, 33 percent of FCPS seniors were prepared for college level study in all 4 categories.

If anyone has knowledge of ACT, I would appreciate a response post.

ACT vs SAT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read an article recently that said many schools
> steer their minority students to take the ACT
> instead of the SAT. The reason mentioned was that
> the schools didn't want their average SAT scores
> to be lower.
>
> I found a report which stated that 2144 FCPS
> seniors took the ACT in 2007-although it did not
> mention the racial breakdown of test takers. Why
> would any student take the ACT over the SAT?
>
> The ACT test results were as follows:
>
> 39% were prepared for college biology
> 59% were prepared for college algebra
> 64% were prepared for college social science
> 80% were prepared for college English Comp.
>
> Overall, 33 percent of FCPS seniors were prepared
> for college level study in all 4 categories.
>
> If anyone has knowledge of ACT, I would appreciate
> a response post.


Why weren't the ACT scores reported? It is odd to report it as you said they did above.

One benefit to the ACT is it includes a science section, so you have reading and math like the SAT, but also science and for some kids highlighting a great score there might work out nicely for them. The ACT also has a writing test students can sign up for, and colleges when they say students can choose which test, that those choosing the ACT must also take the writing test. Some kids prefer the ACT style and some the SAT. The ACT is considered more of an achievement test, meaning demonstrating what the student has learned and what they know, and the SAT in general is more of an aptitude test, as it was designed to assist in determining who could "handle" college.

Hope that assists.

>>>I pulled this gem from the Westfield HS website under their Minority Achievement Committee which appears to be stacked with Westfield employees. I am always suspicious of these independent committees that are dominated by FCPS staff-I doubt they will be critical of their own failures.<<<

ALL such committees in FCPS are dominated by staff. All advisory committees are run by staff and the majority of the members are also administrative staff and/or teachers. The chair of the county wide minority student achievement committee (MSAOC) is always the staff member who is in charge of minority student achievement for FCPS. Staff writes the advisory committee's report to the school board. The report is presented to the board, they ask a few questions, and staff then writes a response to their own report. I've ALWAYS thought it was strange.

The LD committee is an exception, due to a law that says they must independent and not controlled by staff.

A few years ago a couple of school board members attempted to change this, they wanted to have their advisory committees dominated by parents and other community people, rather than staff. One of their ideas was that only community members, including parents, would be able to vote on the committee. It never went anywhere. So staff is still controlling the committees, they still decide who will chair the committees, staff is still writing the committee reports, and answering them. Rather circular.

Rumors say that after this year some of the advisory committees will be eliminated, those such as MSAOC that are not required by law. Other advisory committees will be under Dr. Dale to an even great extent than now. He will appoint ALL members to every board because under strategic governance the school board shouldn't have appointees to any committee. Probably just a rumor. Yeah. That's the ticket.

ACT vs SAT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read an article recently that said many schools
> steer their minority students to take the ACT
> instead of the SAT. The reason mentioned was that
> the schools didn't want their average SAT scores
> to be lower.
>
> I found a report which stated that 2144 FCPS
> seniors took the ACT in 2007-although it did not
> mention the racial breakdown of test takers. Why
> would any student take the ACT over the SAT?
>
> The ACT test results were as follows:
>
> 39% were prepared for college biology
> 59% were prepared for college algebra
> 64% were prepared for college social science
> 80% were prepared for college English Comp.
>
> Overall, 33 percent of FCPS seniors were prepared
> for college level study in all 4 categories.
>
> If anyone has knowledge of ACT, I would appreciate
> a response post.

Wow. That means many of the FCPS students who took the ACT will need remedial work in college.

Some mid western schools still prefer the ACT, over the SAT. That might be the reason why some students take it. They may well have also taken the SAT.

Diversity Training at Westfield Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I pulled this gem from the Westfield HS website
> under their Minority Achievement Committee which
> appears to be stacked with Westfield employees. I
> am always suspicious of these independent
> committees that are dominated by FCPS staff-I
> doubt they will be critical of their own
> failures.
>
> Anyways, they put out this 30 pager titled "Why
> Minority Achievement?" I will just mention the
> highlights. Under the section of "Cultural
> Miscommunication" here are some of the tips for
> our educators:
>
> Asian students-
>
> Tend to show respect to people who are older or of
> higher status by remaining silent in their
> presence.
>
> Tend to avoid expressing any strong
> emotion-anger/frustration/sadness/joy (unless
> their shooting up the VA Tech campus, I guess???)
>
> Have been taught to refuse something initially but
> when asked again they usually will accept
>
> African Amercan students-
>
> It is acceptable to express emotions
> freely-responsive reading in church, call outs
>
> Tend to be physically active (huh???)
>
> Tend to interpret life events in racial terms
> especially when outsiders are involved
>
> May come from a different socio-economic level and
> may have experienced generational poverty
>
> Hispanic students-
>
> Avoid direct eye contact
>
> Are taught not to walk away from confrontation
>
> View time as unimportant because time is often
> measured agiculturally
>
> Tend to stand very close when talking to each
> other
>
> White students-
>
> Have low regard for dependent behavior in
> activities
>
> Show preference for order and control
>
> Place high value on standard English
>
>
> Do these make sense to anyone? Is it healthy to
> engage in this type of racial profiling? I just
> think these generalizations about groups is a
> dangerous path.
>
> I am really beginning to wonder what FCPS is doing
> in dealing with these kids.

I have to agree. This is awful. Are our teachers being taught these prejudices?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Young Scholars,
>
> Where are you? Cat got your tongue? You have
> questions here about the data for the YS program.
> You know so much about the program, only YOU can
> answer these questions.
>
> We anxiously await your response.
>
> Merci

Sorry to keep you up and waiting Neen, just now reading your message so haven't a clue about why you would need to edit yet another post. I'm sure you live for the replies to your childish taunts on an annonymous message board and it is difficult for you when you don't get an immediate response. No cats here, don't want to pay for a pet sitter when I decide to go to the beach for the weekend.

I have never said that only I could answer questions, I have said that you do not answer questions with truthful knowledge.

I again recommend that any person with serious questions or concerns about Young Scholars call the GT office at Lacey Center in Annandale and ask to speak to the director, Dr. Carol Horn, or the man who manages the Young Scholars model, Ryan Richardson. Neen is not the person who anyone should rely upon for any truthful information about FCPS, she has her own personal vendettas to keep building upon and has no credibility left on this forum. But then, you all already know that.

Re below --

I have a friend right up the street from me who's kids were in the GT program at Hughes and there was quite a bit of retesting, according to her.

She is also concerned about retesting at SL where we have numerous friends.

It does happen with some level of frequency in the SL pyramid. This isn't to say it doesn't happen elsewhere, too.

p.s from rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen, if you simply meant to reiterate what I had
> previously written in response to Edna, that
> general tests might be re-taken at South Lakes and
> every other FCPS HS (as they are depending on the
> teacher's views), then you didn't make it very
> clear with your last sentence.
>
> You also don't know what goes on in South Lakes
> since you don't have kids there. I don't either
> which is why I said I don't "know" for sure what
> goes on in regards to general tests being
> re-taken. You frequently post about South Lakes
> and other issues without truly "knowing" so your
> comments above about my posting opinions about SL
> was truly rude and condescending.

Correction Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re below --
>
> I have a friend right up the street from me who's
> kids were in the GT program at Hughes and there
> was quite a bit of retesting, according to her.
>
> She is also concerned about retesting at SL where
> we have numerous friends.
>
> It does happen with some level of frequency in the
> SL pyramid. This isn't to say it doesn't happen
> elsewhere, too.
>

It happens everywhere with general tests and quizzes. Please see my post on teaching to mastery.

I don't believe it happens everywhere with the same frequency, which is perhaps what is in question here.

Mastery has to be had, but pressure needs to be exerted on the elementary schools such middle and high schools can ensure mastery without a crutch.

I would also add that it does nothing to aid higher end students and is detrimental to them insofar as they don't exert their best effort at the outset. Hence, the concerns of my friend up the street. Her daughter was indeed using it as a crutch.


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Correction Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Re below --
> >
> > I have a friend right up the street from me
> who's
> > kids were in the GT program at Hughes and there
> > was quite a bit of retesting, according to her.
> >
> > She is also concerned about retesting at SL
> where
> > we have numerous friends.
> >
> > It does happen with some level of frequency in
> the
> > SL pyramid. This isn't to say it doesn't
> happen
> > elsewhere, too.
> >
>
> It happens everywhere with general tests and
> quizzes. Please see my post on teaching to
> mastery.

zkpelkjfls;lkjdf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't believe it happens everywhere with the
> same frequency, which is perhaps what is in
> question here.
>
> Mastery has to be had, but pressure needs to be
> exerted on the elementary schools such middle and
> high schools can ensure mastery without a crutch.
>
>
> I would also add that it does nothing to aid
> higher end students and is detrimental to them
> insofar as they don't exert their best effort at
> the outset. Hence, the concerns of my friend up
> the street. Her daughter was indeed using it as a
> crutch.
>

You are certainly right that more needs to be done in ES, and you are right that folks can use it as a crutch, and that it doesn't aide higher end students.

You have no proof though that it is happening more at SLs or in that pyramid. It is pretty much a county philosophy in part. It is an aspect of NCLB that people don't understand the ramifications of, essentially the three aspects that you addressed (ES, crutch, higher end students).

You are right that I do not have proof. No one does -- the County would never release this kind of information. However, because I do actually live in the SL pyramid, I certainly do hear the complaints from people in the neighborhood. As to whether people elsewhere have similar types of complaints with a similar type of frequency, I don't know, but again, there is no objective way to gauge this.

However, this discussion also raises another point. Many students from high schools all over Northern Virginia apply to schools like UVA, and the spots at each high school and Northern Virginia overall are capped. So something important to recognize is that students who are at schools that have more liberal policies on retesting are at an advantage vis a vis students at other schools because their GPAs will look that much more favorable. When colleges evaluate students from numerous northern Virginia high schools, they will not necessarily have the knowledge base such that a 3.2 at one high school is equivalent to a higher GPA at another high school due to restesting at a given school. In other words, it makes comparing students in the same school system (FCPS) exceedingly difficult for college to the detriment of some and benefit of others.


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> zkpelkjfls;lkjdf Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't believe it happens everywhere with the
> > same frequency, which is perhaps what is in
> > question here.
> >
> > Mastery has to be had, but pressure needs to be
> > exerted on the elementary schools such middle
> and
> > high schools can ensure mastery without a
> crutch.
> >
> >
> > I would also add that it does nothing to aid
> > higher end students and is detrimental to them
> > insofar as they don't exert their best effort
> at
> > the outset. Hence, the concerns of my friend
> up
> > the street. Her daughter was indeed using it as
> a
> > crutch.
> >
>
> You are certainly right that more needs to be done
> in ES, and you are right that folks can use it as
> a crutch, and that it doesn't aide higher end
> students.
>
> You have no proof though that it is happening more
> at SLs or in that pyramid. It is pretty much a
> county philosophy in part. It is an aspect of
> NCLB that people don't understand the
> ramifications of, essentially the three aspects
> that you addressed (ES, crutch, higher end
> students).

What a shock these graduates will have when they get to college. Many courses have 2 test....midterm and final...maybe a paper. I don't believe I have ever met a professor who would permit the student to take, retake, etc the exam with the hopes of raising the grade. Many professors will not permit a student to do "extra credit" in order to add points to the grade. It is a tough world out there.

Didn't Gibson or Strauss comment on the number o 4.0 grades that SL students achieved? No wonder.....

Even if all schools follow this practice....it is not good academic practice no matter how this practice is painted or explained.

Maybe fairgrades should be asked about retesting. Anyone know who to contact?

Young Scholars Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Young Scholars,
> >
> > Where are you? Cat got your tongue? You have
> > questions here about the data for the YS
> program.
> > You know so much about the program, only YOU
> can
> > answer these questions.
> >
> > We anxiously await your response.
> >
> > Merci
>
> Sorry to keep you up and waiting Neen, just now
> reading your message so haven't a clue about why
> you would need to edit yet another post. I'm sure
> you live for the replies to your childish taunts
> on an annonymous message board and it is difficult
> for you when you don't get an immediate response.
> No cats here, don't want to pay for a pet sitter
> when I decide to go to the beach for the weekend.
>
>
> I have never said that only I could answer
> questions, I have said that you do not answer
> questions with truthful knowledge.
>
> I again recommend that any person with serious
> questions or concerns about Young Scholars call
> the GT office at Lacey Center in Annandale and ask
> to speak to the director, Dr. Carol Horn, or the
> man who manages the Young Scholars model, Ryan
> Richardson. Neen is not the person who anyone
> should rely upon for any truthful information
> about FCPS, she has her own personal vendettas to
> keep building upon and has no credibility left on
> this forum. But then, you all already know that.

Personal vendetta? HUH? Please, share with us, what that means. I have NO personal vendetta against any anyone or any program. Why would I? My children had very positive experiences in FCPS and have done very well since graduation. I wish ALL children in the county could experience the same.

Feel free to post any information that you have about my "personal vendetta". I can't wait to see what you and your little staff buddies have dreamed up. What a hoot! Seriously, tell us. I can't wait to see it! Spill!

Also, if I have said something erroneous about YS, please post it. Please post the links. Asking people to call the person who runs the YS program, is rather silly. Of course she's going to tell anyone and everyone how wonderful the program is. What else would she say?

Lots of stats on this board about the YS program, Quest, etc. We look forward to seeing your's also.

Thanks again!

Interesting information on our AP and IB schools.

http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/newsletters/pdf/june_2008.pdf

edna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't Gibson or Strauss comment on the number o
> 4.0 grades that SL students achieved? No
> wonder.....
>
> Even if all schools follow this practice....it is
> not good academic practice no matter how this
> practice is painted or explained.

Despite what the SL people are claiming, not all middle and high schools allow students to continue to retaking tests for a higher grade. It happens at South Lakes and Hughes, it doesn't happen at every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us who have students in other schools, would be saying so.

You can contact Fairgrade here:
fairgrade.fcps@gmail.com

If that doesn't work, try this link to the fairgrade petition and look for their email contact on the right.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/fairgrade/

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What a shock these graduates will have when they
> get to college. Many courses have 2
> test....midterm and final...maybe a paper. I
> don't believe I have ever met a professor who
> would permit the student to take, retake, etc the
> exam with the hopes of raising the grade. Many
> professors will not permit a student to do "extra
> credit" in order to add points to the grade. It
> is a tough world out there.

Good point. Most bosses also expect you to complete your job the first time without repeated do overs.

;laskjdf;alskjf;llajkfd;j Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Many students from high schools all over Northern Virginia apply to schools like UVA, and the spots at each high school and Northern Virginia overall are capped. So something important to recognize is that students who are at schools that have more liberal policies on retesting are at an advantage vis a vis students at other schools because their GPAs will look that much more favorable. When colleges evaluate students from numerous northern Virginia high schools, they will not necessarily have the knowledge base such that a 3.2 at one high school is equivalent to a higher GPA at another high school due to restesting at a given school. In other words, it makes comparing students in the same school system (FCPS) exceedingly difficul for college to the detriment of some and benefit of others.< <

If a FCPS student has a 3.2, they aren't likely to be admitted, never mind apply, to Mr. Jefferson's country club. It would be tough to get into W&M, JMU, VTECH, Mary Washington or CNU with a 3.2. So I wouldn't get too excited about retesting's beneficial effect on that student's chances at admission to Wahooland.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ACT vs SAT Wrote:

> > If anyone has knowledge of ACT, I would
> appreciate
> > a response post.
>
>
> Why weren't the ACT scores reported? It is odd to
> report it as you said they did above.
>
> One benefit to the ACT is it includes a science
> section, so you have reading and math like the
> SAT, but also science and for some kids
> highlighting a great score there might work out
> nicely for them. The ACT also has a writing test
> students can sign up for, and colleges when they
> say students can choose which test, that those
> choosing the ACT must also take the writing test.
> Some kids prefer the ACT style and some the SAT.
> The ACT is considered more of an achievement test,
> meaning demonstrating what the student has learned
> and what they know, and the SAT in general is more
> of an aptitude test, as it was designed to assist
> in determining who could "handle" college.

The admission officers I know at colleges that prefer the ACT to the SAT say that the results on the ACT are less correlated to student's socio-econmic class than the SAT.

Many critics of the SAT say that it's results are more a surrogate for the socio-economic class of the student and that its results are not as reliable a predictor of success in college freshman year as high school junior year grades.

Thus more and more colleges are dropping the SAT from the application process.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> edna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't Gibson or Strauss comment on the number
> o
> > 4.0 grades that SL students achieved? No
> > wonder.....
> >
> > Even if all schools follow this practice....it
> is
> > not good academic practice no matter how this
> > practice is painted or explained.
>
> Despite what the SL people are claiming, not all
> middle and high schools allow students to continue
> to retaking tests for a higher grade. It happens
> at South Lakes and Hughes, it doesn't happen at
> every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us who
> have students in other schools, would be saying
> so.



Madison and TJ makes their male students wear thong underwear. It doesn't happen at every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us who have students in other schools would be saying so.

Boundary Warrior Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > edna Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Didn't Gibson or Strauss comment on the
> number
> > o
> > > 4.0 grades that SL students achieved? No
> > > wonder.....
> > >
> > > Even if all schools follow this
> practice....it
> > is
> > > not good academic practice no matter how this
> > > practice is painted or explained.
> >
> > Despite what the SL people are claiming, not
> all
> > middle and high schools allow students to
> continue
> > to retaking tests for a higher grade. It
> happens
> > at South Lakes and Hughes, it doesn't happen at
> > every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us
> who
> > have students in other schools, would be saying
> > so.
>
>
>
> Madison and TJ makes their male students wear
> thong underwear. It doesn't happen at every
> school in FCPS. If it did, many of us who have
> students in other schools would be saying so.


Didn't Neen talk about how those schools are excellent, inside and out?

Even if all schools follow this practice....it is not good academic practice no matter how this practice is painted or explained.

Re: UNnecessary middle school
Posted by: EnviroSolutions (IP Logged)
Date: June 02, 2008 05:52PM


I am trying to follow all of the players here. EnviroSolutions owns a landfill near Lorton that will be "full" soon-I guess there is a height requirement. I am assuming you can't build houses on a pile of garbage so they are proposing to sell the land to the Park Authority and will offer to pay for part of the middle school.

I assume the land has limited use and the options are slim for the company to recover any money back from the land value-a deal with the parks dept puts money in the company's pockets. This Conrad Mehan guy who works for EnviroSolutions is active in the SOCO area even though he lives in Ashburn. His name is often mentioned in donations to the schools in the SOCO area. His company is a big contributor to Connelly and they were just granted approval by Fairfax zoning/planning dept to have their garbage pile grow higher than it was originally approved for.

Something fishy is going on here. Looks like more back room deals with our politicians and business people who are looking for favors.

Let's hope one of the papers digs a little deeper into this mess-no pun intended.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> edna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't Gibson or Strauss comment on the number
> o
> > 4.0 grades that SL students achieved? No
> > wonder.....
> >
> > Even if all schools follow this practice....it
> is
> > not good academic practice no matter how this
> > practice is painted or explained.
>
> Despite what the SL people are claiming, not all
> middle and high schools allow students to continue
> to retaking tests for a higher grade. It happens
> at South Lakes and Hughes, it doesn't happen at
> every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us who
> have students in other schools, would be saying
> so.

I am not an "SL" person, I am an educator who knows it happens in each and every school. In other schools, not SL but those like Langley, Woodson and McLean, parents are much more vocal about grades and the pressure they put on teachers is higher in comparison to schools like SL. Principals feel this pressure as well and often insist that a teacher change a grade when a parent complains, and if the teacher doesn't..well the principal does have access to the final grades...

Even if re-testing is allowed, I stipulated earlier that the grade goes down..just as when a kid hands in a paper late, the grade goes down. Teaching to mastery doesn't mean teaching to an A, it means teaching to the point the material is understood, if it takes two tests there is some respective down grade...if the second would have earned an A with a 100% it would be averaged with the previous test..so if that was an F then the student ends up with a C. Not the type of grade average that will assist in getting into the universities mentioned by a poster.

In addition there is no way a school gets an advantage even if they routinely offer retesting because you still have SAT's and not all teachers believe in the practice or allow it (and even when allowed it is never routine or automatic..) so the overall GPA wouldn't be helped. Granted, students might end up passing with a retest, but they don't end up with stellar GPA's due to factoring in first scores etc...and SAT scores give anothe picture of the student. So when you have inflated GPA's, whether it is due to re-testing or grade inflation at schools with parental pressure, you have other factors the admissions folks can look at. They know each county's grading scale, and they know each high schools' stats.

Are you sure that teachers are not cooking up these 4.x grades that are being advertised?

> Even if re-testing is allowed, I stipulated
> earlier that the grade goes down..just as when a
> kid hands in a paper late, the grade goes down.


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > edna Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Didn't Gibson or Strauss comment on the
> number
> > o
> > > 4.0 grades that SL students achieved? No
> > > wonder.....
> > >
> > > Even if all schools follow this
> practice....it
> > is
> > > not good academic practice no matter how this
> > > practice is painted or explained.
> >
> > Despite what the SL people are claiming, not
> all
> > middle and high schools allow students to
> continue
> > to retaking tests for a higher grade. It
> happens
> > at South Lakes and Hughes, it doesn't happen at
> > every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us
> who
> > have students in other schools, would be saying
> > so.
>
> I am not an "SL" person, I am an educator who
> knows it happens in each and every school. In
> other schools, not SL but those like Langley,
> Woodson and McLean, parents are much more vocal
> about grades and the pressure they put on teachers
> is higher in comparison to schools like SL.
> Principals feel this pressure as well and often
> insist that a teacher change a grade when a parent
> complains, and if the teacher doesn't..well the
> principal does have access to the final grades...
>
> Even if re-testing is allowed, I stipulated
> earlier that the grade goes down..just as when a
> kid hands in a paper late, the grade goes down.
> Teaching to mastery doesn't mean teaching to an A,
> it means teaching to the point the material is
> understood, if it takes two tests there is some
> respective down grade...if the second would have
> earned an A with a 100% it would be averaged with
> the previous test..so if that was an F then the
> student ends up with a C. Not the type of grade
> average that will assist in getting into the
> universities mentioned by a poster.
>
> In addition there is no way a school gets an
> advantage even if they routinely offer retesting
> because you still have SAT's and not all teachers
> believe in the practice or allow it (and even when
> allowed it is never routine or automatic..) so the
> overall GPA wouldn't be helped. Granted, students
> might end up passing with a retest, but they don't
> end up with stellar GPA's due to factoring in
> first scores etc...and SAT scores give anothe
> picture of the student. So when you have inflated
> GPA's, whether it is due to re-testing or grade
> inflation at schools with parental pressure, you
> have other factors the admissions folks can look
> at. They know each county's grading scale, and
> they know each high schools' stats.

are you sure Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you sure that teachers are not cooking up
> these 4.x grades that are being advertised?

GPA's can be "cooked up" in any number of ways: parental pressure at the more "prestigious" schools like Langely, McLean, Madison et al,
and perhaps easier course loads overall at other schools. But, again, the universities can see the stats of each school and make valid assumptions. And again, SAT scores can assist in making valid assumptions as well.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> edna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't Gibson or Strauss comment on the number
> o
> > 4.0 grades that SL students achieved? No
> > wonder.....
> >
> > Even if all schools follow this practice....it
> is
> > not good academic practice no matter how this
> > practice is painted or explained.
>
> Despite what the SL people are claiming, not all
> middle and high schools allow students to continue
> to retaking tests for a higher grade. It happens
> at South Lakes and Hughes, it doesn't happen at
> every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us who
> have students in other schools, would be saying
> so.

Perhaps if Neen had been allowed to take a retest or two, she would have learned how to punctuate. Her message should read:

"It happens at South Lakes and Hughes; it doesn't happen at every school in FCPS. If it did, many of us who have students in other schools would be saying so."

She can't write a simple sentence without making a mistake, yet presumes to tell the rest of us how teachers should educate our kids.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > other factors the admissions folks can look at. They know each county's grading scale, and they know each high schools' stats.< <

Maybe Virginia universities know about FCPS's deviant grading scale (though I've had instances that make me doubt it) but the application file readers at the other 3,000 colleges and univerities in the U.S. surely don't.

At each of those 3,000 colleges, each file reader has to read thousands, if not tens of thousands, of files between January and March.

These folks are mostly 20 something grad students with high turn over rates.

So, don't be deluded in to thinking that FCPS's deviations from national norms, in grading or other practices, doesn't adversely impact it's students in the college admission process.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2008 09:23AM by Thomas More.

A few months ago Dale was asked about FCPS's grading scale vs. MOCO and whether FCPS kids were at a disadvantage in the college admissions process. His response was so vintage of the FCPS mentality. He was quoted ina smug tone of course, "Maybe you should ask MOCO why they don't have a more demanding grading scale like FCPS does".

I can't stand how this school district basically ignores and dismisses parents. They want us to be involved and engaged in our kid's education, but when we challenge a policy they ignore us.

I hope FAIR GRADES keeps the pressure on. The report is due out in September-too late for the 2008-09 school year.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > other factors the admissions folks can look
> at. They know each county's grading scale, and
> they know each high schools' stats.< <
>
> Maybe Virginia universities know about FCPS's
> deviant grading scale (though I've had instances
> that make me doubt it) but the application file
> readers at the other 3,000 colleges and
> univerities in the U.S. surely don't.
>
> At each of those 3,000 colleges, each file reader
> has to read thousands, if not tens of thousands,
> of files between January and March.
>
> These folks are mostly 20 something grad students
> with high turn over rates.
>
> So, don't be deluded in to thinking that FCPS's
> deviations from national norms, in grading or
> other practices, doesn't adversely impact it's
> students in the college admission process.

You do realize that both Loudon, Prince William and I believe Fauquier all have the FCPS scale. I do think the admissions officers are for the most part young, as you say, and there is probably high turnover rate in some universities. But, they still follow a region for a while, or if new are at least given the stats on that region. So, even in out of state universities, an admission officer at say, NYU has a chunk of the mid-atlantic to cover, and basis his decisions on the norms for that region, and within that region he is epxected to become an expert on the schools.

Each school, each district, each state probably have their own quirks...as do the universities looking to admit students. I am sure there are many high schools without any true AP or IB program that feel they are unfairly viewed when it comes to admissions. Their courses may be quite tough and perhaps even cover more than an AP course would (note that many prestigious private schools are doing away with AP and creating their own college level curriculum) and they trust and assume that the universities will understand their curriculum, and their students' transcripts..but they too might have doubts. it is all a crapshoot in many respects, but I highly doubt FCPS is harmed more than any other district with the same scale or differences from their neighboring schools.

Essay Grader Wrote:
> Perhaps if Neen had been allowed to take a retest
> or two, she would have learned how to punctuate.
> Her message should read:
>
> "It happens at South Lakes and Hughes; it doesn't
> happen at every school in FCPS. If it did, many
> of us who have students in other schools would be
> saying so."

Actually, comma apposition isn't strictly wrong. I would avoid it in formal writing, but this forum hardly qualifies as such. The extra comma in the second sentence should come out; that would be, um, a typo.

> She can't write a simple sentence without making a
> mistake, yet presumes to tell the rest of us how
> teachers should educate our kids.

I disagree with Neen much of the time, but she's usually coherent — whereas the ad hominem attack above adds nothing relevant and lacks comity.

Why does FCPS stick with the IB program? See the report posted on FairfaxCAPS website (www.fairfaxcaps.org).

How can the school board and administration defend this program?

Young Scholars - your recommendation to contact those in charge of the YS program is a good one - irrespective of the bias that such contacts may bring - there are plenty of us around trained to see through bias and ask fair and meaningful questions - even if they are direct. The truth, be as it is, can often be determined from what is not answered as much as is what is answered.

In this vein, since you seem to know something about the YS program, what is it that this program is doing that will lead to substantive results and improvement? From the materials I can discern that that there is a great deal of effort towards putative identification of certain students as "gifted", and some nurturing surrounding that - but what kind of rigor exists in the program so that 5th graders or so will make gains tantamount to 2 standard deviations on an IQ or similar test so as to enable these kids to truly compete and succeed at the gifted level by the time they land in high school? In other words, what is this program doing that is so special that will make it succeed unlike the numerous other similar programs that have shown absolutely no material gains? I suspect these questions are really challenging - and maybe not susceptible to conclusive answers - other than in the vein of "we are trying". Now, the "we are trying" may be really helpful and even necessary - no one wants to face a NAACP who still often succeeds in using their power to cast those in opposition as racist without any feel good ammunition - but if this is all the program does - that is - quiet disquieting voices and making appearances better - the system would be far better off rigorously educating all students without regard to racial preference - and in particular the competent ones who just happen to fall short of GT levels. Nothing would further enhance confidence in the public schools than a substantial and reasonably rapid closure of the achievement gap. By the same token, just another feel good program further undermines confidence, even if people are often afraid to say just that.

Again, Young Scholars, your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

I also find the retesting issue a bit elliptical. I am not sure it matters to any college admission - at competitive schools - the skill level required is such that one better be able to take and pass and do well on all sorts of tests - the first time. The one parent above hit the issue - to the extent that retesting becomes the norm, students can become far less susceptible to giving less than their best come test time - a lousy habit to create. Like most anything else, a good teacher would keep this kind of activity in balance, sensing the pulse of students and continually infusing sufficient accountability into the test taking process. And it is something I would monitor as a parent to the extent necessary.

I might add that those of us who attended elementary school in the 60's and 70's find this strange - retesting was a rare, rare event and you better be prepared the first time. This is not to say that the old way was better - but it sure infused a sense of urgency that came into good stead in college and beyond.

Any retesting in FCPS-particularly at the 11th and 12th grade level should be permitted on an extraordinary exception basis only-we have got to stop coddling our kids.

When I took Macro Ecom in college, I got a 72 on the midterm and it was the highest grade in the class. Grade on a scale if everyone bombs an exam-clearly the teacher failer to teach the class the contect if evryone does poorly on an exam.

FAIR GRADES should definitely look into this practice. If there are X number of seats available at UVA, WM. etc for FCPS students, and schools A, B, and C have a policy of retesting-it should be addresses. The sooner the better.

to Quantum and Rough Road,

I do fully understand what you are both saying about retesting, and I agree with you. It can indeed coddle etc. I am simply saying it doesn't only occur within the SLs pyramid, and there are many, many ways to have grade inflation. in fact some of the ways..direct parental pressure on the principal whom in turn applies pressure to the teacher, probably produces higher GPA's than averaging a bombed test in with a higher score. So, if you want FAIRGRADE to look into retesting, they also need to check out grade inflation at schools that are swayed by certain parents...

That being said, I believe the county might be looking at teaching to mastery in order to ensure the material is understood, in order for the kids that need that, to pass the SOL's and for the NCLB issues like AYP to increase or stay on track.

Sure, doing well the first time makes sense, and shows adequate study habits etc., but in these days of NCLB and parents obsessing over scores/GPA/AYP...you will have issues like retesting (with lower grade still counting in some fashion).

Another Lurker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Essay Grader Wrote:
> > Perhaps if Neen had been allowed to take a
> retest
> > or two, she would have learned how to punctuate.
>
> > Her message should read:
> >
> > "It happens at South Lakes and Hughes; it
> doesn't
> > happen at every school in FCPS. If it did,
> many
> > of us who have students in other schools would
> be
> > saying so."
>
> Actually, comma apposition isn't strictly wrong.
> I would avoid it in formal writing, but this forum
> hardly qualifies as such. The extra comma in the
> second sentence should come out; that would be,
> um, a typo.
>
> > She can't write a simple sentence without making
> a
> > mistake, yet presumes to tell the rest of us
> how
> > teachers should educate our kids.
>
> I disagree with Neen much of the time, but she's
> usually coherent — whereas the ad hominem
> attack above adds nothing relevant and lacks
> comity.

I believe that Neen's recently calling Taylor, a South Lakes student, Marie Antoinette, surely qualifies as such an ad hominem attack. We haven't forgotten her kind words about the South Lakes PSTA president, either. Neen certainly wasn't being polite to her.

When she stops attacking others on a personal level, others may be inclined to point out her own errors, both factual and grammatical, with less frequency.

Is anyone aware that Southlakes is telling the students not to discuss SOL's in or OUTSIDE of school. They are not supposed to share info at HOME. Daugher is in Sunrise Valley which is a big feeder to Southlakes. She was told by teacher not to discuss SOL with parents or family or anyone. Scary

[redacted] (a.k.a. Neen) is too bitter and angry to stop. She is a passive aggressive type who has lived through her own children as a way to compensate for her obvious deficits, and now that they are grown, she has nothing left; hence the constant criticism of South Lakes, Stu Gibson, SL students, PTSA President, etc. Pity her...she needs our sympathy and prayers.

edit by Cary: Removed name. Personal attack.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2008 09:43AM by Cary.

Susan Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is anyone aware that Southlakes is telling the
> students not to discuss SOL's in or OUTSIDE of
> school. They are not supposed to share info at
> HOME. Daugher is in Sunrise Valley which is a big
> feeder to Southlakes. She was told by teacher not
> to discuss SOL with parents or family or anyone.
> Scary

If your daughter is at SVES, what does that have to do with South Lakes. What are you trying to say? I don't think you have a clue, but I'm sure Jeanine will find some way to use it to start another baseless rumor for the mill.

These types of generalizations are promoted all the time in intercultural communication courses and training. How true are they? Who knows, obviously there are so many exceptions, especially among "Asians" whose parents are American-born. If FCPS wasn't doing anything to address cultural differences, people would criticize that also, so they are in sort of a no-win situation.

I wish my high schooler showed preference for order and control. The description of white kids seems the dumbest.

Diversity Training at Westfield Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I pulled this gem from the Westfield HS website
> under their Minority Achievement Committee which
> appears to be stacked with Westfield employees. I
> am always suspicious of these independent
> committees that are dominated by FCPS staff-I
> doubt they will be critical of their own
> failures.
>
> Anyways, they put out this 30 pager titled "Why
> Minority Achievement?" I will just mention the
> highlights. Under the section of "Cultural
> Miscommunication" here are some of the tips for
> our educators:
>
> Asian students-
>
> Tend to show respect to people who are older or of
> higher status by remaining silent in their
> presence.
>
> Tend to avoid expressing any strong
> emotion-anger/frustration/sadness/joy (unless
> their shooting up the VA Tech campus, I guess???)
>
> Have been taught to refuse something initially but
> when asked again they usually will accept
>
> African Amercan students-
>
> It is acceptable to express emotions
> freely-responsive reading in church, call outs
>
> Tend to be physically active (huh???)
>
> Tend to interpret life events in racial terms
> especially when outsiders are involved
>
> May come from a different socio-economic level and
> may have experienced generational poverty
>
> Hispanic students-
>
> Avoid direct eye contact
>
> Are taught not to walk away from confrontation
>
> View time as unimportant because time is often
> measured agiculturally
>
> Tend to stand very close when talking to each
> other
>
> White students-
>
> Have low regard for dependent behavior in
> activities
>
> Show preference for order and control
>
> Place high value on standard English
>
>
> Do these make sense to anyone? Is it healthy to
> engage in this type of racial profiling? I just
> think these generalizations about groups is a
> dangerous path.
>
> I am really beginning to wonder what FCPS is doing
> in dealing with these kids.

Susan Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is anyone aware that Southlakes is telling the
> students not to discuss SOL's in or OUTSIDE of
> school. They are not supposed to share info at
> HOME. Daugher is in Sunrise Valley which is a big
> feeder to Southlakes. She was told by teacher not
> to discuss SOL with parents or family or anyone.
> Scary


Scary?? SOLs are standardized tests given to all FCPS students, in this case unlike IB exams, there are make-up days and different schools may have a different test on a given day. It shouldn't be discussed during the testing window, which runs through pretty much mid-June (some ES on modified calendar go longer and testing timeframe goes starts and ends later). If they were to discuss the test cheating could occur, or folks might think cheating had occured and students would have to re-take the test.

Essay Grader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Lurker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Essay Grader Wrote:
> > > Perhaps if Neen had been allowed to take a
> > retest
> > > or two, she would have learned how to
> punctuate.
> >
> > > Her message should read:
> > >
> > > "It happens at South Lakes and Hughes; it
> > doesn't
> > > happen at every school in FCPS. If it did,
> > many
> > > of us who have students in other schools
> would
> > be
> > > saying so."
> >
> > Actually, comma apposition isn't strictly wrong.
>
> > I would avoid it in formal writing, but this
> forum
> > hardly qualifies as such. The extra comma in
> the
> > second sentence should come out; that would be,
> > um, a typo.
> >
> > > She can't write a simple sentence without
> making
> > a
> > > mistake, yet presumes to tell the rest of us
> > how
> > > teachers should educate our kids.
> >
> > I disagree with Neen much of the time, but
> she's
> > usually coherent — whereas the ad hominem
> > attack above adds nothing relevant and lacks
> > comity.
>
> I believe that Neen's recently calling Taylor, a
> South Lakes student, Marie Antoinette, surely
> qualifies as such an ad hominem attack. We
> haven't forgotten her kind words about the South
> Lakes PSTA president, either. Neen certainly
> wasn't being polite to her.
>
> When she stops attacking others on a personal
> level, others may be inclined to point out her own
> errors, both factual and grammatical, with less
> frequency.



I was not reading the Fairfaxunderground when Neen had unkind words about the SLPTA president. I guess I miss that posting. A lot of folks had unkind words about the role the PTA played in the redistricting. There seemed to be some rule that the PTA was not supposed to take sides....which they certainly did. But then there were some pretty strict rules about a Board member taking sides. Gibson certainly did.

Why. I can understand asking students not to discuss the test questions with anyone, but not to even talk about the SOLs that makes little sense.

Edna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why. I can understand asking students not to
> discuss the test questions with anyone, but not to
> even talk about the SOLs that makes little sense.


It is simpler just to say, "don't discuss the tests" than to say don't discuss the questions but you can discuss..

what, Edna would they discuss, if not the questions, out of curiosity?

Essay Grader Wrote:
> I believe that Neen's recently calling Taylor, a
> South Lakes student, Marie Antoinette, surely
> qualifies as such an ad hominem attack. We
> haven't forgotten her kind words about the South
> Lakes PSTA president, either. Neen certainly
> wasn't being polite to her.

Ah. I had missed that aspect of it; true.

Comity, please!

Susan Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is anyone aware that Southlakes is telling the
> students not to discuss SOL's in or OUTSIDE of
> school. They are not supposed to share info at
> HOME. Daugher is in Sunrise Valley which is a big
> feeder to Southlakes. She was told by teacher not
> to discuss SOL with parents or family or anyone.
> Scary



My youngest goes to Sunrise Valley and he talks about SOLs without hesitation. Usually, he starts with "why do we take them" and "they are boring". But no teacher or administrator ever said not to discuss.

What's your kid's teacher's name? I'll follow up and see what this is about. I've never heard of this.....ever.

SLHS/SVES dad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Susan Smith Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is anyone aware that Southlakes is telling the
> > students not to discuss SOL's in or OUTSIDE of
> > school. They are not supposed to share info at
> > HOME. Daugher is in Sunrise Valley which is a
> big
> > feeder to Southlakes. She was told by teacher
> not
> > to discuss SOL with parents or family or anyone.
>
> > Scary
>
>
>
> My youngest goes to Sunrise Valley and he talks
> about SOLs without hesitation. Usually, he starts
> with "why do we take them" and "they are boring".
> But no teacher or administrator ever said not to
> discuss.
>
> What's your kid's teacher's name? I'll follow up
> and see what this is about. I've never heard of
> this.....ever.


I suppose that a teacher might have said "don't discuss what the questions are. But you imply that there is some kind of conspiracy not to talk about SOLs at all, which I have never heard of.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You do realize that both Loudon, Prince William and I believe Fauquier all have the FCPS scale.< <

Not sure, but I do know that Arlington and Montgomery County Maryland use the generally accepted scale as does most PA and NJ schools. The FCPS scale is the outlier.

> But, they still follow a region for a while, or if new are at least given the stats on that region.< <

After 30 years working as a volunteer with one "prestigious" university's admissions department, please believe me when I tell you that few readers even know where the high schools are geographically located: rural, suburban, urban, upscale, challenged. Never mind the idiocincracies of the high schools individual grading scales.

> So, even in out of state universities, an admission officer at say, NYU has a chunk of the mid-atlantic to cover, and basis his decisions on the norms for that region, and within that region he is epxected to become an expert on the schools.< <

There aren't "regional" norms. The readers are there for less than 3 years on average. Unless they get a high volume of applicants from one particular high school(aka a feeder school), they never figure it out.

> > I highly doubt FCPS is harmed more than any other district with the same scale or differences from their neighboring schools.< <

That's the whole point of fairgrades. FCPS's grading system is having a deleterious impact on the competitiveness of its students transcripts compared to students from schools using the more generally accepted grading scale.

With more colleges de-emphasizing or dropping the SAT, the transcript becomes even more important and FCPS grading scale makes our kids look dumber than those from Arlington, Montgomery and elsewhere in the country. I posted a story about a Fairfax kid applying to UMich earlier on this thread. Check it out.

To the poster who decided to identify another poster by name-

I think your actions are cowardly. Unless you want to identify yourself by name you should respect the anonymity that is accepted on this forum.

Shame on you. Another reason to dislike the SLHS people.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You do realize that both Loudon, Prince William
> and I believe Fauquier all have the FCPS scale.<
> <
>
> Not sure, but I do know that Arlington and
> Montgomery County Maryland use the generally
> accepted scale as does most PA and NJ schools.
> The FCPS scale is the outlier.

FCPS is not an outlier since Loudon, Prince William and Fauquier also have the same scale (and in some of the more rural pockets in those counties, with perhaps fewer AP options boosting up the GPA by .5 or 1, they may be a true outlier).
>
> That's the whole point of fairgrades. FCPS's
> grading system is having a deleterious impact on
> the competitiveness of its students transcripts
> compared to students from schools using the more
> generally accepted grading scale.
>
> With more colleges de-emphasizing or dropping the
> SAT, the transcript becomes even more important
> and FCPS grading scale makes our kids look dumber
> than those from Arlington, Montgomery and
> elsewhere in the country. I posted a story about
> a Fairfax kid applying to UMich earlier on this
> thread. Check it out.

I will try to find that (is it a true story?), in the meantime, check this article written by a Dean of Admissions on this very issue: http://notjustadmissions.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/230/

I will acknowledge that in terms of scholarships there might be a huge disadvantage because those committees might not look as closely at transcript/grading scale differences, as the admissions officers. I appreciate all the info you provided about that by the way, just didn't quote it all here. I simply disagree with their skill level (or ability to learn about their region).

Thanks for the shout out. Actually the counsellors there tell me Arlington has no district policy on grading, and each school can go their own way on the issue.

As for admissions officers, we generally do know the schools we read. For those we don't the schools send along helpful profiles. As I said in my article, that doesn't mean this is or isn't an issue, but I thought it would be helpful to clarify that most admissions officers are familiar with, and atuned to , various grading scales.

"The test was not hard." "The test was really, really hard." "I blew every answer mom...dad." "Don't worry.....I only left 10 blank."

There is a lot to talk about without addressing specific questions.

To: "She Can't Stop" aka anonymous unregistered wimp.


It has been a very long time since I've posted here...but, you crossed a boundary with your incorrect ident....

Would you like me to post your name, address, date of birth and what you had for dinner on this public forum? Get back to me on that, would you?

To those of you who think only SL pyramid students are told not to talk about the SOL tests. Please call or write the state officials (web site below)

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/

who are in charge of approving the written directions in the test packet which is totally scripted for the teacher to read. The state officials can confirm for you that the teacher must read this script and it very clearly says NOT to discuss the test with anyone. Unfortunately, on the released tests they publish on this website they have cut out the "read" directions by the teacher. That is where you would find the specific words the teacher dictates to the students.

There is no SL or any other conspiracy about discussing the SOL tests, it is state procedure. Move on.............

Ah, the infamous VaDriver! FYI, Neen has 'outed' many posters on this forum. Caroline Hemenway comes to mind. She has even written about the children of poster's that she has outed on this forum, and identified where they attend school. How's that for a lack of discretion? If she can't stand the heat, she should get out of the kitchen. BTW, she has been 'outed' by many other posters and because she puts herself out there she deserves what she gets.

Oh my word!!! This has been decided. Fox Mill, you got to move with Floris rather than McNair to South Lakes. It has been decided.

She Can't Stop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [redacted] (a.k.a. Neen) is too bitter and
> angry to stop. She is a passive aggressive type
> who has lived through her own children as a way to
> compensate for her obvious deficits, and now that
> they are grown, she has nothing left; hence the
> constant criticism of South Lakes, Stu Gibson, SL
> students, PTSA President, etc. Pity her...she
> needs our sympathy and prayers.
> edit by Cary: Removed name. Personal attack.

Obsessed with a woman on a message board. She gets you idiots riled up, every damn time. You south lake dopes can't help falling for it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2008 09:44AM by Cary.

Defense of She Can't Stop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, the infamous VaDriver! FYI, Neen has 'outed'
> many posters on this forum. Caroline Hemenway
> comes to mind. She has even written about the
> children of poster's that she has outed on this
> forum, and identified where they attend school.
> How's that for a lack of discretion? If she can't
> stand the heat, she should get out of the kitchen.
> BTW, she has been 'outed' by many other posters
> and because she puts herself out there she
> deserves what she gets.

Chicken shit posters from South Lakes. Out yourself and maybe we'll be impressed.

deanflagel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>. . . . the counsellors there tell me Arlington has no district policy on grading, and each school can go their own way on the issue.

Sorry Dean but the Arlington school system uses the more widely adopted grading scale, e.g. 90 = A- = 3.75 v. Fairfax 90 = B+ = 3.5. Same work gets 0.25 higher GPA in Arlington.

> > As for admissions officers, we generally do know the schools we read. For those we don't the schools send along helpful profiles. As I said in my article, that doesn't mean this is or isn't an issue, but I thought it would be helpful to clarify that most admissions officers are familiar with, and atuned to, various grading scales.

So comparing the grading systems for Johnston, Pa, Redbank NJ and Frederick, MD to the FFX system, what adjustments do your file readers make?

While you're at it, please explain why GMU can only graduate 26% of its students in 4 years?

rumord Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > FCPS is not an outlier since Loudon, Prince William and Fauquier also have the same scale < <

Only if your frame of reference is so provincial as to limit the samples to a small part of Virginia. When the frame of reference is the mid-atlantic states or the nation as a whole, the FCPS scale is the outlier.

> I will try to find that (is it a true story?),

Yes

> > in the meantime, check this article written by a Dean of Admissions on this very issue: http://notjustadmissions.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/ 230/ < <

Who wrote this and was their intended audience high school graduates?

I've seen more sophisticated insights regarding this issue on the back of a Wheaties box.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumord Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > FCPS is not an outlier since Loudon, Prince
> William and Fauquier also have the same scale < <
>
> Only if your frame of reference is so provincial
> as to limit the samples to a small part of
> Virginia. When the frame of reference is the
> mid-atlantic states or the nation as a whole, the
> FCPS scale is the outlier.

I reiterated the other counties since you said FCPS was an outlier when you looked at MoCo and Arlington. If you look at the mid-atlantic or the nation as a whole, then all 3 counties (FCPS, Loudon and PW) are the outliers. And that pre-supposes that no other states in the mid-atlantic, or the nation, have counties within them that use the tougher scale.

I am not entirely rejecting what Fair Grade has to say, but the FCPS scale has been in use for sometime now (2 decades) and I am unclear why it is suddenly putting our graduates at a disadvantage.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Who wrote this and was their intended audience
> high school graduates?
>

I assumed you understood when DeanFlagel wrote "thanks for the shoutout" that he was the author. It is from a blog of his (for anyone interested in college admissions) and isn't written as a scholary piece by any means.

I came across the blog when reading something from the Washington Post.

wrt - the grading scale and putting grads at a disadvantage....

It really doesn't matter whether 94-100 is A or 92-100 or 90-100. VA universities are going to continue to limit the number of students they take from each school. The disadvantage here is that you have a higher percentage of qualified students at most FCPS high schools. So if you soften up the grading scale, you will raise the bar in terms of what it takes to be accepted at those schools.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > It really doesn't matter whether 94-100 is A or 92-100 or 90-100. VA universities are going to continue to limit the number of students they take from each school. The disadvantage here is that you have a higher percentage of qualified students at most FCPS high schools.< <

You are soooooo right on this point.

Va's public university system is too small, too expensive, admits too few Va. residents, admits too many out of staters, graduates far too few and takes far too long to do so.

> > So if you soften up the grading scale, you will raise the bar in terms of what it takes to be accepted at those schools.< <

I take exception to the description of conforming to the more widely accepted grading scale as "softening."

It's only "raising the bar" if the perspective is limited to Va. public universities. At the other 3,000 colleges, shifting FCPS's grading scale to the more widely utilized scale would remove a disadvantage it currently imposes on its kids.

Since so many FCPS kids must now seek admission at out of state school, as FCPS's quota at Va public colleges is filled so readily, it's becoming an ever increasing issue.

A cynic might suggest that this grading scale was intentionally adopted to disqualify as many kids as possible from a college education. Such an intention would be consistent with Va.'s rich long exclusionary tradition.

Thomas More - you are absolutely correct that FCPS grading scale absolutely negatively impacts students at Univ. of Mich. The first thing U Mich does when looking at any applicant is "transform" their GPA into a Univ. of Michigan GPA, which means that they throw out 9th grade (most of the time), take away all pluses and reduce them to a base letter grade, count only what they consider core courses (those A's in psychology don't help), and fairly well look to at least a 3.7 GPA after all this is said and done.

If more schools move to the U Mich model - which permits them to have high applicant quality while being one of the larger and most competitive schools in the nation - FCPS will have to consider its grading programs.

The groundswell to achieve parity with admission to an out of state school like U Mich might be limited given the excellence of Va.'s state schools, but as I say, if more schools look to their model, real pressure will come to bear.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I reiterated the other counties since you said FCPS was an outlier when you looked at MoCo and Arlington. If you look at the mid-atlantic or the nation as a whole, then all 3 counties (FCPS, Loudon and PW) are the outliers. And that pre-supposes that no other states in the mid-atlantic, or the nation, have counties within them that use the tougher scale.< <

I'm familiar with grading scales at high schools in PA, NJ, NY and New England and have found none that use the FFX scale.

> > I am not entirely rejecting what Fair Grade has to say, but the FCPS scale has been in use for sometime now (2 decades) and I am unclear why it is suddenly putting our graduates at a disadvantage.< <

Va. idolized slavery for 200+ years too, should we bring that back?

(Sorry for the snark but it was just too easy. Old joke: How many Virginians does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: 13 - 1 to do it; 2 to stand around talking about what a great light bulb the old light was; and 10 Wahoo doctoral candidates to write their dissertations about the advantages and disadvantages of that particular light bulb. Probably told by a VTech grad.)

See my immediately prior post.

As recently as 8 years ago VTech and JMU were safety schools for SL grads, taking every kid who didn't get into UVA and W&M. Now their younger siblings are lucky to get into CNU, ODU or Radford.

Thus, more and more FCPS kids are going to out of state public colleges which have higher graduation rates, and in a few cases cost Va parents less, than VA public colleges.

So using an unusual grading scale is having an adverse impact on those kids.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Thomas More - you are absolutely correct that FCPS grading scale absolutely negatively impacts students at Univ. of Mich.

Thanks for the verification.

> > given the excellence of Va.'s state schools . . .< <

No way are CNU, ODU and Radord comparable to Eastern, Central and Western Michigan.

I would put UMich significantly ahead of UVA. Same with MichTech and VTech.

Michigan's public university system is bigger and far better than Va's but that's true of almost every northern and western state.

Like every thing else, Va came very late to the broad based public university system which was driven in most states by the need for large numbers of public school teachers which Va adopted much later than her sister states in the north and west. See Dominion of Memories by Susan Dunn. Va is still trying to catch up for the mistakes described therein.

I think FairGrades needs to take on the issue of declining seats available to FCPS grads in VA state schools. NOVO parents pay the bulk of the taxes in the state-we damn well should get more seats at the schools that we pay for.

Hopefully they will broaden their platform.

No argument about the quality of Umich here. It is one of the best universities in the world, and its graduate programs consistently outpace all of Uva's and are in the top 10 in virtually every field - a remarkable record. The marketplace also desires Michigan grads because they tend to learn to fend for themselves given the size of the school but do not have the preppy elitism that still infects UVa (my brother is a former UVa professor and found this factor disappointing with many UVa students). But realistically, the opportunities available to UMich and UVa graduates are typically plentiful, and given UVa's price for in-state students, it is a deal that most find a difficult time passing up.

While Radford, ODU, and CNU are what they are - places where you really must be focused and in the right major to get a truly rigorous education - the state of Michigan (I am from the midwest myself) has no public counterpart to William and Mary - one of the most competitive liberal arts schools in the country, and I see little difference in quality between Virginia Tech and Michigan State and Tech's alumni network and great array of technical majors here makes it a very sensible choice for many.

And while Western, Central and Eastern Michigan are all reasonably competent schools, they are not as competitive for admittance as JMU and frankly aren't much different than JMU or Mary Washington et.al in terms of quality. Although I agree the midwest has generally done a better job in preparing teachers - and fulfills that mission well - there are not any sizeable gaps between the JMU's and Western Michigans of the world.

The point being is that Virginia sizes up very well in terms of its universities - and generally they are a significant Commonwealth asset. Anyone looking for a tie breaker between living in Virginia or Maryland should find Virginia's schools a really large factor - Maryland's university system has been poorly treated for years (although College Park is getting better), as decades of subsidizing every form of expensive Great Society program in Baltimore have taken their toll.

And given this is the case, folks in Fairfax do have a vested interest in having their students evaluated fairly for admission - the educational values are too good of a deal to easily ignore. I am not sure what the FCPS grading system in and of itself does to the Virginia college admissions process - surely the admissions officers at the Virginia schools know exactly what a 3.7 at Westfield with 5 AP courses means in terms of relatively quality. Perhaps in the end the FCPS scale is used by the universities to justify limiting Northern Virginians - if empirically that could ever be shown to be the case - a difficult task - FCPS would have to face the grading issue squarely - having their customers admitted to Virginia schools is just that important.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No argument about the quality of Umich here.< <

I think we're basically in agreement.

My point about teachers is that the northern and western states adopted free public elementary and secondary education sooner and needed a large college (now university) system to develop and supply the teachers for that system sooner than Va.

Va has fewer public universities than MI, PA or NC.

And the overall quality top to bottom doesn't compare.

If it weren't so durn far away I'd send my kid to Grand Valley State before Longwood or CNU.

Yet CNU admissions staff tells SL kids they expect incoming freshman to have a 3.5 GPA and a 1200 SAT (old scale).

With those credentials, a kid to go to many out of state public colleges with a 4 yr. grad rate better than the 12% @ CNU.

That's the safety school SL kids are being shunted off to. It's an indictment of the VA General Assembly that this is the best VA has to offer to B+/A- students from FFX who will be the back bone of any institution or company.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2008 01:45PM by Thomas More.

CAPS recent report on IB vs AP is a wake up call. All of the people of ffx county should fight against this SB to remove IB and provide equal opportunity to all with AP. It is amazing that the SB has selectively chosen the poorer more diverse areas and saddled them with IB. Brazen discrimination

Thomas Moore,
The UVA joke goes like this:
How many Wahoos does it take to change a light bulb?

Three. One to change the bulb, one to mix the bourbon and branch, and one to talk about how Mr.Jefferson would have changed the light bulb.

caps ib report Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPS recent report on IB vs AP is a wake up call.
> All of the people of ffx county should fight
> against this SB to remove IB and provide equal
> opportunity to all with AP. It is amazing that the
> SB has selectively chosen the poorer more diverse
> areas and saddled them with IB. Brazen
> discrimination

They stuck those schools with IB because they COULD. The school board didn't dare put it in the other schools where the parents would have objected mightily. They tried at Woodson, but were forced to retreat. They knew better than to try it again at high schools Langley, Oakton, Madison, McLean, etc.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No argument about the quality of Umich here. It is
> one of the best universities in the world, and its
> graduate programs consistently outpace all of
> Uva's and are in the top 10 in virtually every
> field - a remarkable record. The marketplace also
> desires Michigan grads because they tend to learn
> to fend for themselves given the size of the
> school but do not have the preppy elitism that
> still infects UVa (my brother is a former UVa
> professor and found this factor disappointing with
> many UVa students). But realistically, the
> opportunities available to UMich and UVa graduates
> are typically plentiful, and given UVa's price for
> in-state students, it is a deal that most find a
> difficult time passing up.
>
> While Radford, ODU, and CNU are what they are -
> places where you really must be focused and in the
> right major to get a truly rigorous education -
> the state of Michigan (I am from the midwest
> myself) has no public counterpart to William and
> Mary - one of the most competitive liberal arts
> schools in the country, and I see little
> difference in quality between Virginia Tech and
> Michigan State and Tech's alumni network and
> great array of technical majors here makes it a
> very sensible choice for many.
>
> And while Western, Central and Eastern Michigan
> are all reasonably competent schools, they are not
> as competitive for admittance as JMU and frankly
> aren't much different than JMU or Mary Washington
> et.al in terms of quality. Although I agree the
> midwest has generally done a better job in
> preparing teachers - and fulfills that mission
> well - there are not any sizeable gaps between the
> JMU's and Western Michigans of the world.
>
> The point being is that Virginia sizes up very
> well in terms of its universities - and generally
> they are a significant Commonwealth asset. Anyone
> looking for a tie breaker between living in
> Virginia or Maryland should find Virginia's
> schools a really large factor - Maryland's
> university system has been poorly treated for
> years (although College Park is getting better),
> as decades of subsidizing every form of expensive
> Great Society program in Baltimore have taken
> their toll.
>
> And given this is the case, folks in Fairfax do
> have a vested interest in having their students
> evaluated fairly for admission - the educational
> values are too good of a deal to easily ignore. I
> am not sure what the FCPS grading system in and of
> itself does to the Virginia college admissions
> process - surely the admissions officers at the
> Virginia schools know exactly what a 3.7 at
> Westfield with 5 AP courses means in terms of
> relatively quality. Perhaps in the end the FCPS
> scale is used by the universities to justify
> limiting Northern Virginians - if empirically that
> could ever be shown to be the case - a difficult
> task - FCPS would have to face the grading issue
> squarely - having their customers admitted to
> Virginia schools is just that important.

I assume that you are aware that is more difficult for our FCPS students to be accepted at CNU than at ODU, Radford, GMU, and lately, Mary Washington. Under Paul Trible CNU has made great strides.

Virginia schools need no justification for limiting students from northern Virginia other than it's only fair to admit students from all parts of the state. If they didn't limit NoVA students, there would be no room for any other students since our students have higher SATs and take more rigorous course work.

Virginia colleges are aware of FC high schools and their strange grading. Fairgrade is much more of an issue for the many students who apply to colleges outside the Commonwealth, imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2008 02:13AM by Neen.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I assume that you are aware that is more difficult for our FCPS students to be accepted at CNU than at ODU, Radford, GMU, and lately, Mary Washington.< <

MWU is harder for girls, easier for boys. MWU is trying to get its % of women below 65%. Otherwise you are correct.

> > Under Paul Trible CNU has made great strides.< <

Of course the Republican is doing a great job, just ask Bob Marshall.

> > Virginia schools need no justification for limiting students from northern Virginia other than it's only fair to admit students from all parts of the state.< <

Why, we're paying from them with our taxes?

> If they didn't limit NoVA students, there would be no room for any other students since our students have higher SATs and take more rigorous course work.<

To quote the Prince of Darkness: So?

We're paying for them, we should get first dibs on every seat at W&M, VTech & JMU. Let the kids from districts who won't pay for new public colleges go to CNU, Radford, Longwood, ODU and VCU. And let UVA become a private school right after it reimburses the rest of us for the fair market value of the assets they'd be taking with them. (There's a strong push for this among some of the more elitist Wahoo alums. Then it would literally be Mr. Jefferson's country club.)

Or maybe there should be enough seats at public colleges in Va for all the kids who can handle college material, as most of the other states in the U.S. have as an objective.

> > Virginia colleges are aware of FC high schools and their strange grading. Fairgrade is much more of an issue for the many students who apply to colleges outside the Commonwealth, imo.< <

Since Bill Howell and Bob McDonnell won't build the minimum number of road miles needed in Va, it's fair to anticipate they won't be supporting any new public colleges in VA so that it can educate all of VA kids for the 21st century.

Therefore, an ever growing percentage of FCPS students will have to go to out of state public colleges and the SB better fix this additional handicap they're imposing on FFX families damn quick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2008 03:53AM by Thomas More.

Always an axe to grind, huh? Why is it that you choose to partner with so many Wahoos, if you loathe them so much?

Fairfax May Junk Study on Behavior
Staff Report Shows Racial, Ethnic Gaps Among Students

By Michael Alison Chandler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 5, 2008; B01



Fairfax County School Board members said they are likely to abandon a staff report that showed racial and ethnic gaps in some measures of student behavior, including in the demonstration of "sound moral character and ethical judgment."

The board had delayed an April vote to approve the report after concerns were raised that findings were based on subjective measures, such as elementary report card data, and that they would fuel negative stereotypes.

Board member Phillip A. Niedzielski-Eichner (Providence) said yesterday that he plans to propose at a June 19 meeting that a vote on the report be postponed indefinitely. Several board members have indicated their support, he said.

Board member Martina A. Hone (At Large) said that the original report is "fatally flawed" and that it doesn't make sense "to work on fixing it." She said she is pleased with the way the board is rethinking it. "I think we have come out a stronger school board," she said.

The school system's report was an early attempt to measure progress on a host of goals the board considers "essential" for success in the workplace. It identified disparities among groups of students in several skills, including the ability to contribute effectively in a group, resolve conflicts and make healthy choices, and in the demonstration of moral character and ethical judgment.

Board members plan to approve revisions to their goals June 19 to make the wording more precise. Superintendent Jack D. Dale will again be given the challenge of developing methods for interpreting and measuring the goals.

In coming months, the board intends to review the potential for teacher bias in report cards and whether it makes sense to analyze nonacademic measures by race and ethnicity.

The staff report on student behavior recently drew criticism from the chairman of the Minority Student Achievement Oversight Committee.

In a letter to School Board Chairman Daniel G. Storck (Mount Vernon) last month, Ralph Cooper wrote that the report and some recent school system budget decisions had "damaged any credibility [the School Board] may have had in improving minority student achievement."

The letter, attached to the committee's annual report, urged the board to hire a consultant to roll out its "essential life skills" goals and to work with the advisory committee and other groups.

"We would like to be part of the team," Cooper said in an interview.

The 31-member committee consists of school system employees and community members and has advised the board on minority student issues for more than 13 years.

The committee's report included suggestions for how the school system can reach out to minority parents to encourage them to be effective advocates for their children's education.

After hearing from nearly 100 people at three meetings, the committee concluded that too often minority parents feel "a sense of alienation" in their children's public schools. Many could not name their school board representatives or articulate their functions, the report said.

The report noted some positive trends, including a reduction in the dropout rate for black and Hispanic students. But it also found mixed results in efforts to reduce achievement gaps in English test scores for those groups.

Overall, Cooper said, "progress is too slow."

What a waste of time and money.

Just started a book that many on this thread should read:-).

It is about, "The High Cost of Invasive Parenting"

the book is: A Nation of Wimps by Hara Estroff Marano...

good read for SL PTSA who mounted a campaign to force other people children to contribute to their children's education.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just started a book that many on this thread
> should read:-).
>
> It is about, "The High Cost of Invasive
> Parenting"
>
> the book is: A Nation of Wimps by Hara Estroff
> Marano...

good read for SL PTSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> good read for SL PTSA who mounted a campaign to
> force other people children to contribute to their
> children's education.
>
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just started a book that many on this thread
> > should read:-).
> >
> > It is about, "The High Cost of Invasive
> > Parenting"
> >
> > the book is: A Nation of Wimps by Hara Estroff
> > Marano...


And a good read for all parents who think their children will be horribly harmed by going to a different high school than they thought...

good read for SL PTSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> good read for SL PTSA who mounted a campaign to
> force other people children to contribute to their
> children's education.
>
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just started a book that many on this thread
> > should read:-).
> >
> > It is about, "The High Cost of Invasive
> > Parenting"
> >
> > the book is: A Nation of Wimps by Hara Estroff
> > Marano...


Some might resent being defined as "other people children".

That definition fits many anti-RDers to a T.

On two occassions, I have asked Tina Hone for data on IB/AP participation rates broken down by schools and ethnicity. I also asked for SAT/ACT rates with the same breakdowns. I also asked for drop out rates per schools.

No response, of course. Time to file a FOIA. It really bugs me when these public servatnts don't respond and don't even have the courtesy to refer you to someone within FCPS.

Time to play hardball. It seems to be the most effective way of dealing with FCPS. You have to shame them in the newspapers to get their attention.

Yes, Neen, I am aware of the increased challenge that No. Va students have in gaining admittance to Va. schools. I am not persuaded, although it is possible,
that the grading scale in and of itself impacts Va. school admissions - it may just be a case of raw geographic discrimination - which is disturbing for taxpayers in No. Virginia. To the extent that the grading scale can be shown to have a negative impact above and beyond the raw geographic discriminatory practices that exist, I would think that this alone would cause even the rather arrogant and self-satisfied FCPS to look anew at their policies - admission to Virginia schools is that important to parents and students. I would think you would agree with this clarified statement, except perhaps for the view that even a very probative set of data would cause the school system to change - my confidence may be misplaced and somewhat naive.

On another topic, I am curious as to the lack of genuine feedback on the substance, or rigor of the YS program. Do we really have a novel and unique approach to overcome what virtually no other public schools systems have done? I would think that the poster Young Scholars has an opinion and knows more than he or she is letting on. I think an important topic - it goes straight to the integrity of the schools' academic missions.

Dean Tistadt should lose his job over this disaster.


effect of power outage on Westfield
Posted by: WHS Student (IP Logged)
Date: June 05, 2008 11:48AM


WESTFIELD HIGH SCHOOL:
Today was simply a waste of four hours.
No A/C, No lights (few emergency lights), the PA system (not loud enough), no wi-fi/server (therefore no grading, no attendance).

ABSOLUTE CHAOS
3200 kids, no rules, no nothing. Even some of the water appliances werent working (fountains). No refrigeration (no lunch), nothing.

i've never seen such a sight, on such a grand scale. Today was absolute anarchy, and I dont' ever think there will ever be anything like it.

I hated AND loved it.
Anybody else have any interesting stories?

During the redistricting, the rumor was that Hone also asked for data on IB participants and IB Diploma graduates. I heard that she could not not get it.

I know people asked for the data from Dr. Goodman, pyramid director and from SL.

Yes it is time for FOIA. Don't hold your breathe while waiting for the information. However, if you get it, please post on the underground.

Have you searched the FCSB website for some of the data? IB data for SL is not posted.





Hone does not respond Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On two occassions, I have asked Tina Hone for data
> on IB/AP participation rates broken down by
> schools and ethnicity. I also asked for SAT/ACT
> rates with the same breakdowns. I also asked for
> drop out rates per schools.
>
> No response, of course. Time to file a FOIA. It
> really bugs me when these public servatnts don't
> respond and don't even have the courtesy to refer
> you to someone within FCPS.
>
> Time to play hardball. It seems to be the most
> effective way of dealing with FCPS. You have to
> shame them in the newspapers to get their
> attention.