Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> > FR -
> > Your numbers are interesting, especially for
> the
> > general ed population, but I don't think they
> are
> > the numbers Baffled was interested in. Your
> > numbers are the numbers for Fairfax County's
> > Standard (22 units of credit) vs Advanced
> Diploma
> > (24 units of credit). ...
> >
> > What Baffled was interested in was the numbers
> of
> > FCPS students completing the IB Diploma vs
> FCPS's
> > "AP Diploma" - "Fairfax County Public Schools
> > recognizes students who take a minimum of 5 AP
> > courses with a score of at least a 3 on each AP
> > exam with an AP Diploma." ...
> ------------
> It is hard to compare apples to oranges. We are
> looking for some sort of success rate of
> top-achieving students, correct?
>
> We could compare the number of juniors who start
> the IB programme to the number who achieve the
> full IB Diploma, but there is no comparable number
> for AP schools.
>
> So - any suggestions other than SAT averages?
> Maybe percent of pass-advanced on the highest
> level of SOLs?

Don't try to muddle their minds with things like facts. They hate that. Facts made their heads hurt.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > > It appears the measuring stick for PTA
> officers is not whether all kids are doing well --
> just their own. And as long as they're taken care
> of, they seem disinclined to rock the boat . . . <
> <
>
> You and Not So Obvious are spot on. Turning FCPS
> and SL around is not easy given these dynamics.

What incentives do they have to turn anything around?

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
> I recognize people are choosing private versus
> Hughes or South Lakes. I do think the
> redistricting was flawed from the get go since
> Langley wasn't included. I questioned Neen's
> premise not because she lives in Vienna..don't
> really care where she resides. She made the
> statement that high performing kids don't want to
> go to IB schools. It was a silly statement to
> make. There are 7 other IB schools in the county.
> Families within those districts have students who
> are indeed high performing by any definition. It
> has irked me from the begining of this thread that
> folks like Neen make statements that are too
> broad, vague or silly simply to support their smug
> views about where they purchased their home. Most
> of the families in my IB districted school
> purchased their homes prior to 98 or 99 when IB
> came in. In addition they may not have had
> children yet, or their kids were small. IB was
> brought in without a community meeting, but
> perhaps a high school meeting. All families make
> sound decisions on their home purchase afterall it
> is the biggest investment. For Neen and others to
> promote the idea that they made better purchases
> and deserve something because of that, at the same
> time denouncing Langley families for essentially
> one upping that premise, has bothered me.
>
> For Neen to then state that those families who
> have remained in their high school district,
> raising their families and sending them to their
> neighborhood schools that end up being IB as not
> "high performing students" was beyond simply
> silly. Her smugness got the better of her in this
> case.

What the heck is wrong with you? Cannot you not read? Or is there some other reason you continue to make up things that I have never said?

One more time, and I will type really slowly, with the hope that you can comprehend what I am writing. I have NEVER said that there were no high performing students stuck in neighborhood IB schools.

Please, stop erroneously twisting what I have written.

Thank you.





Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes is stuck with IB
> and will continue to be a poor performing school
> because high performing kids don't want to go to
> an IB school.


Neen, I wasn't lying or twisting your words. This is your orginal statement. I was pointing out that there are 7 other IB districted schools and clearly high performing kids are in them. You made a very broad, vague statement. Enough said

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> There were no meetings at schools to decide who
> got IB and who didn't. According to Nancy
> Sprague, then the Superintendent in charge of
> instruction, IB was put into schools where they
> were worried about white flight.
>
> I know that parents in the Madison area, including
> the PTA officers, made it clear to Stu Gibson, and
> the school administration, that they did not want
> Madison to become an IB school. But there were no
> meetings about it. There were no concerns about
> white flight at Madison, perhaps that's the reason
> that IB was never considered.


If the fear of "white flight" was the impetus why was it placed at Woodson for even a short bit, and why at Robinson? I actually think you are right, that white flight is probably the main reason, but why those 2 additional schools?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Yes, staff and administration chooses who will be
> on that committee. They choose the parents who
> may participate, the PC parents who are easily
> controlled by the staff. Then the staff steers the
> committee so that they get the answer they want,
> the pre determined choice.
>
> At Madison, it 'only' took us 3 years to get rid
> of a terrible Principal. I never met a Madison
> parent who was on the selection committee. Perhaps
> they were ashamed to admit their participation.
> But I knew many parents who complained. It took 7
> years to get rid of the unpopular Principal at TJ
> because the school board and administration loved
> her. She was Jesse Jackson's buddy, and a big
> fundraiser for democrat candidates.
>
>

I know it is hard to get rid of principals, just as it is hard to get rid of inept teachers. I also think the PC parents are the ones picked for the committee and the teaching staff on the committee is also carefully picked. Who on the staff, do you suppose, is the one (or group) that steers the committee to the choice the admin wants? And, in this case is the admin you refer to at the superintendent level or the other administrators in that school building?

And in SLs case, where Thomas More said Railly (not sure if I spelled that correctly) suddenly replaced the principal they had, how does that happen? Was there no committee? Did the person Railly replace have medical issues or something that caused a sudden replacement? And even then, when GJ Tarazi left in the middle of the year at my sons' middle school, they had interim principals prior to hiring the current principal there, via the committee. (and by the way I hear many are disappointed with the current administrator, including those on the hiring committee...I am not a parent there any longer so am repeating hearsay, but it is from trusted sources).

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And in SLs case, where Thomas More said Railly (not sure if I spelled that correctly) suddenly replaced the principal they had, how does that happen?

Railly replaced Bill Harper after the end of the school year,

> > Was there no committee?< <

No

> > Did the person Railly replace have medical issues or something that caused a sudden replacement?< <

No

rumor Wrote:
> Neen Wrote:
> > There were no meetings at schools to decide who
> > got IB and who didn't. According to Nancy
> > Sprague, then the Superintendent in charge of
> > instruction, IB was put into schools where they
> > were worried about white flight. ...
> >
> If the fear of "white flight" was the impetus why
> was it placed at Woodson for even a short bit, and
> why at Robinson? I actually think you are right,
> that white flight is probably the main reason, but
> why those 2 additional schools?

The School Board approved implementation of IB at Stuart and Mt Vernon for FY94. White flight was a concern, but so was overall school performance.

Basic academic problems were not resolved, but staff still lauded IB and four years later, in FY98, Marshall implemented IB. FCPS was on the way to becoming "all-IB," with one "strong" school and one "weaker" school to be added a year. In FY 99 Edison and Robinson got IB and in FY00 South Lakes and Woodson began IB implementation.

Just as the South Lakes community had allowed their new high school to be built with "open classrooms," just as they allowed the south county secondary school to bump ahead of them in line for CIP funding, so also they accepted IB. Voices opposed to IB were silenced - until Woodson.

The Woodson community carefully analyized and evaluated both IB and AP, and against all odds (and partially because Woodson had a brand-new, out-of-state principal and a weak cluster director), they actually defeated the IB implementation plans of the central staff. In the meantime, the FY01 budget stated Annandale and Lee would receive IB, but since then NO additional FCPS high school has attempted to implement IB.

Jay Matthews of the Washington Post wrote a book called Supertest about IB implementation. It provides some history on the entire process in FCPS. The book is in FX libraries. Spillane, the supt at the time of initial IB installation, never intended for such a costly program to be in so many schools. IMHO there were board memebrs who wanted the $$$ in resources and were competing for students. Marshall appears to be the only IB HS that has attracted the non-TJ middle school GT center group in significant numbers. Are most of the SL IB pupil placements from Herndon ex GTC students who were at Hughes?


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > There were no meetings at schools to decide who
> > got IB and who didn't. According to Nancy
> > Sprague, then the Superintendent in charge of
> > instruction, IB was put into schools where they
> > were worried about white flight.
> >
> > I know that parents in the Madison area,
> including
> > the PTA officers, made it clear to Stu Gibson,
> and
> > the school administration, that they did not
> want
> > Madison to become an IB school. But there were
> no
> > meetings about it. There were no concerns
> about
> > white flight at Madison, perhaps that's the
> reason
> > that IB was never considered.
>
>
> If the fear of "white flight" was the impetus why
> was it placed at Woodson for even a short bit, and
> why at Robinson? I actually think you are right,
> that white flight is probably the main reason, but
> why those 2 additional schools?

Can the Reston parents share what they are doing to get out of SL. Are all going to private school? We all saw the exodus figures and we know there are more than 1300 students in reston. So they must be going someplace other than SL. Which private schools are good here and how much do they cost?

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> If the fear of "white flight" was the impetus why
> was it placed at Woodson for even a short bit, and
> why at Robinson? I actually think you are right,
> that white flight is probably the main reason, but
> why those 2 additional schools?

Rumor - Do you think the IB program is a draw for middle and upper middle-class students and parents at a school like Stuart? The enrollment at Stuart is up over 10-12% over the past decade, and the number of white students is up slightly. In comparison, Falls Church (a neighboring AP school) has flat enrollment and the number of white students has declined almost 30%. The situation at Marshall is different still - both the enrollment and the number of white students have increased 10-12% over the past decade.

Personally, I think these demographic trends have a lot more to do with the quality of the housing stock in these neighborhoods than the introduction of an IB program. Culmore can be a pretty tough area, but the Sleepy Hollow/Lake Barcroft areas that also feed into Stuart are really nice. If you accept that premise, would you have been equally happy or happier if Stuart went back to AP?

The recent thread about the SL pyramid and the possibility that some kids would be redistricted from Carson to Hughes prompted a question in my mind - are there some pyramids where the middle school is considered by far the weakest part of an otherwise good pyramid. What about the areas that neighborhoods that are in good elementary school districts and zoned for Oakton High, but are also in the Jackson middle school district?

My impression is that, if parents pull the kids once they reach 7th or 8th grade for a private school, they rarely send the kid back to the public school system, even if the public high school has much better reputation than the middle school. Do others have the same or different understanding?

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > If the fear of "white flight" was the impetus
> why
> > was it placed at Woodson for even a short bit,
> and
> > why at Robinson? I actually think you are
> right,
> > that white flight is probably the main reason,
> but
> > why those 2 additional schools?
>
> Rumor - Do you think the IB program is a draw for
> middle and upper middle-class students and parents
> at a school like Stuart? The enrollment at Stuart
> is up over 10-12% over the past decade, and the
> number of white students is up slightly. In
> comparison, Falls Church (a neighboring AP school)
> has flat enrollment and the number of white
> students has declined almost 30%. The situation
> at Marshall is different still - both the
> enrollment and the number of white students have
> increased 10-12% over the past decade.
>
> Personally, I think these demographic trends have
> a lot more to do with the quality of the housing
> stock in these neighborhoods than the introduction
> of an IB program. Culmore can be a pretty tough
> area, but the Sleepy Hollow/Lake Barcroft areas
> that also feed into Stuart are really nice. If
> you accept that premise, would you have been
> equally happy or happier if Stuart went back to
> AP?

Interesting stats, thanks for sharing. I think perhaps they brought the program in to deal with white flight..perhaps. It came in in what the mid-90's and at that point there was some gang issues, apparently. I don't know if IB is a draw or not, and I am not in the SleepyHollow/Lake Barcroft neighborhood..nor am I in Culmore. My neighborhood is Parklawn, and there are houses for sale, but I am noticing more rentals taking place (though that recently may be turning around into sales). I am wondering if the number of kids in the rental properties are responsible for the increasing enrollment. When Glasgow was being rebuilt, the stats they used to at one point decrease capacity were faulty, in my opinion, just based on watching the huge increase in the number of kids walking to Parklawn..it was clear that they were using something other than the "real" numbers when they thought there would be a decrease in enrollment at Glasgow and then Stuart.

I really have mixed feelings about the two programs, IB and AP. I do think the diploma program is a good one, but can understand folks who say it is too much money when compared to AP. AP does grant more college credit, but the IB diploma earns admission to some schools, that without it would be harder to get in (there is a spreadsheet somewhere that shows percentage of admissions along those lines, and it includes students who have taken just some IB classes who are also favored, over none...similar to taking AP in an AP school versus not taking any AP). I did discuss with my kids whether or not they would want to be pupil placed into an AP school, prior to them starting high school and both were adament that they not do that. They had friends whose siblings were doing well at Stuart..these siblings were diploma candidates, students just taking a few IB, and some not taking any IB.

I think fear of how intense college admissions has become has led to fear about how kids will fair if they are in IB schools, and thus parents end up not wanting it, in some cases. From my observations, kids are doing pretty well at Stuart in terms of getting into college. Friends of mine have children that got into their first choice schools (UVA, Tech etc.), while I can see the names of colleges other students got into, and I have no way of knowing if they were their first choice schools, the schools are good ones. We also have a number of kids, whose parents didn't attend college (and some who did) who are heading to NOVA as part of the Pathways to Bacculaureate program..where after two years they head to GMU.

Would I be happier if Stuart were AP, no way of knowing. I guess I would feel less defensive perhaps?? The only true benefit of being AP, in my experience, would be I would understand the titles of the math courses in an AP program:-) While college credit might end up being helpful financially, and that might be more easily obtained in an AP school, I have no regrets concerning Stuart. Kids can take placement tests afterall, to avoid any 100 level course they feel they covered in IB (or AP) and I have discussed with my kids the need to focus on scholarships etc. Is there more pressure on a kid to earn 4's and 5's on AP exams, and hope the college they accept the offer from does indeed offer the credit their website says, or to earn a scholarship or decent financial aid package?? Kids are under pressure regardless, it seems.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The recent thread about the SL pyramid and the
> possibility that some kids would be redistricted
> from Carson to Hughes prompted a question in my
> mind - are there some pyramids where the middle
> school is considered by far the weakest part of an
> otherwise good pyramid. What about the areas that
> neighborhoods that are in good elementary school
> districts and zoned for Oakton High, but are also
> in the Jackson middle school district?
>
> My impression is that, if parents pull the kids
> once they reach 7th or 8th grade for a private
> school, they rarely send the kid back to the
> public school system, even if the public high
> school has much better reputation than the middle
> school. Do others have the same or different
> understanding?

I have met families who either pupil placed to Poe, or sent their kids to private school instead of attending Glasgow, who then went to Stuart. Whether this small number means anything I don't know, but it is clear they felt Glasgow was the weak link in the pyramid. They have stayed in Stuart and not gone back to private (or pupil placed out).

The general point that IB schools, in the aggregate, have a lower percentage of graduates obtaining Advanced Studies diplomas is accurate. However, of the 25 county high schools, two IB schools were in the top 10 in terms of percentage of graduates receiving Advanced Studies Diplomas: Marshall (#5) and Robinson (#9). South Lakes was #12.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> > ... What I
> > would like to see is the numbers of AP students
> > receiving advanced diplomas and IB students
> > receiving IB diplomas in Fairfax County ...
>
> Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?
> Data from the state web site:
> Diploma Graduates and Completers by School
> Regular Term Plus Summer Term, 2006-2007
> (Compiled 11/27/2007)
>
> School Name - Standard Diploma - Advanced Studies
> Diploma
> CENTREVILLE - 164 - 320
> CHANTILLY - 206 - 445
> FAIRFAX - 193 - 308
> FALLS CHURCH - 100 - 179
> HAYFIELD - 166 - 183
> HERNDON - 152 - 286
> JEFFERSON - 0 - 428
> LAKE BRADDOCK - 198 - 379
> LANGLEY - 83 - 383
> MADISON - 131 - 330
> MCLEAN - 103 - 318
> OAKTON - 154 - 378
> SOUTH COUNTY - 123 - 243
> WEST POTOMAC - 153 - 232
> WEST SPRINGFIELD - 160 - 353
> WESTFIELD - 205 - 501
> WOODSON - 110 - 348
> AP schools TOTAL - 2,401 - 5,614
>
>
> ANNANDALE - 227 - 260
> EDISON - 204 - 187
> LEE - 185 - 254
> MARSHALL - 77 - 215
> MOUNT VERNON - 155 - 144
> ROBINSON - 212 - 481
> SOUTH LAKES - 99 - 208
> STUART - 101 - 179
> IB schools TOTAL - 1,260 - 1,928

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What the heck is wrong with you? Cannot you not
> read? Or is there some other reason you continue
> to make up things that I have never said?
>
> One more time, and I will type really slowly, with
> the hope that you can comprehend what I am
> writing. I have NEVER said that there were no high
> performing students stuck in neighborhood IB
> schools.
>
> Please, stop erroneously twisting what I have
> written.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lakes is stuck with IB
> > and will continue to be a poor performing
> school
> > because high performing kids don't want to go
> to
> > an IB school.
>
>
> Neen, I wasn't lying or twisting your words. This
> is your orginal statement. I was pointing out
> that there are 7 other IB districted schools and
> clearly high performing kids are in them. You
> made a very broad, vague statement. Enough said

I do enjoy watching Neen back-peddle ever so slowly. First, she tells us that "high performing kids don't want to go to an IB school." Then she admits there may be one, or perhaps as many as 20, such students at any single IB school. Guess she is now reserving the right to claim that they don't want to go to their schools and are "stuck" there. Her kids are now grown; why can't she follow suit?

I don't see what you're adding to the conversation other than desiring to beat up on Neen.

I live in the SL pyramid. The question isn't whether there are any good kids whatsoever. Of course there are. We live in one of the most affluent areas in the United States.

The question is do the schools here foster an environment that emphasizes true intellectual gains regardless of what level you come in at, and the answer, on the basis of many years of experience in this pyrmaid, is an unequivocal no.

I've been told countless times that "things will be fine" because I'm an educated white parent who watches over the homework and does the right thing for my child. Okay, so what. Why send them to school at all, then? I'd like to know what precisely the school brings to the equation. I'd like to know if my child will get some attention and focus in the classroom. Maybe for some parents, they feel their child doesn't need this. But my daughter does need this. She's been going for 6 plus years now doing very well but no one ever focusing on getting her to the next level. I'm not waiting until the end of high school to figure out that they never will.

If you want to know why parents like myself don't want to send their kids to the schools here, this is one of the main reasons.

I also think science and math are weak at SL. Again -- not innuendo. Take a look at the scores.

If there were an IB school in the County that supplemented with AP math and science courses like George Mason in Falls Church City, I'd be there in a heartbeat. But they don't. The majority of elementary school parents I know do not like the IB program at all, and regarding the middle school program, have only heard negative things about it. High school -- we hear mixed things. I was told by the mother of a young woman in the IB program that everyone in the IB program is told that they are virtually guaranteed a top slot at a national university by virtue of the diploma. Again -- heady words that deserve a fair degree of skepticism.


Neenologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What the heck is wrong with you? Cannot you not
> > read? Or is there some other reason you
> continue
> > to make up things that I have never said?
> >
> > One more time, and I will type really slowly,
> with
> > the hope that you can comprehend what I am
> > writing. I have NEVER said that there were no
> high
> > performing students stuck in neighborhood IB
> > schools.
> >
> > Please, stop erroneously twisting what I have
> > written.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > South Lakes is stuck with IB
> > > and will continue to be a poor performing
> > school
> > > because high performing kids don't want to go
> > to
> > > an IB school.
> >
> >
> > Neen, I wasn't lying or twisting your words.
> This
> > is your orginal statement. I was pointing out
> > that there are 7 other IB districted schools
> and
> > clearly high performing kids are in them. You
> > made a very broad, vague statement. Enough
> said
>
> I do enjoy watching Neen back-peddle ever so
> slowly. First, she tells us that "high performing
> kids don't want to go to an IB school." Then she
> admits there may be one, or perhaps as many as
> 20, such students at any single IB school. Guess
> she is now reserving the right to claim that they
> don't want to go to their schools and are "stuck"
> there. Her kids are now grown; why can't she
> follow suit?

Cinderella,

You should be careful not to spread hearsay as fact. Kids are not guaranteed a spot in any university. Spots are obtained on the basis of hard work and many other factors. I am curious if you have been guaranteed by any other public middle school that your child will receive individualized treatment that will foster academic growth. I doubt that any exist in FFX county that will meet your expectations. You'd better start looking at public schools. BTW, I don't think it's fair for you to slam Hughes or South Lakes, schools that you apparently have never had a child enrolled in, on the basis of your daughter's needs. You write as if you expect the school to raise her and educate her so that you don't have to. It doesn't work that way, unless you want to live in a nanny state.

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see what you're adding to the conversation
> other than desiring to beat up on Neen.
>
> I live in the SL pyramid. The question isn't
> whether there are any good kids whatsoever. Of
> course there are. We live in one of the most
> affluent areas in the United States.
>
> The question is do the schools here foster an
> environment that emphasizes true intellectual
> gains regardless of what level you come in at, and
> the answer, on the basis of many years of
> experience in this pyrmaid, is an unequivocal no.
>
> I've been told countless times that "things will
> be fine" because I'm an educated white parent who
> watches over the homework and does the right thing
> for my child. Okay, so what. Why send them to
> school at all, then? I'd like to know what
> precisely the school brings to the equation. I'd
> like to know if my child will get some attention
> and focus in the classroom. Maybe for some
> parents, they feel their child doesn't need this.
> But my daughter does need this. She's been going
> for 6 plus years now doing very well but no one
> ever focusing on getting her to the next level.
> I'm not waiting until the end of high school to
> figure out that they never will.
>
> If you want to know why parents like myself don't
> want to send their kids to the schools here, this
> is one of the main reasons.
>
> I also think science and math are weak at SL.
> Again -- not innuendo. Take a look at the scores.
>
>
> If there were an IB school in the County that
> supplemented with AP math and science courses like
> George Mason in Falls Church City, I'd be there in
> a heartbeat. But they don't. The majority of
> elementary school parents I know do not like the
> IB program at all, and regarding the middle school
> program, have only heard negative things about it.
> High school -- we hear mixed things. I was told
> by the mother of a young woman in the IB program
> that everyone in the IB program is told that they
> are virtually guaranteed a top slot at a national
> university by virtue of the diploma. Again --
> heady words that deserve a fair degree of
> skepticism.
>
Cinderella - Neen may be your fairy godmother; she's not ours.

I don't doubt your negative experience with the Reston area schools or second-guess the tough decisions you apparently now confront. But this thread has not been limited to the South Lakes redistricting or pyramid for a long time. For many months on end, Neen has disparaged every IB school in the county, as well as most students who attend those schools, while at the same time suggesting that students who attend a very small number of schools on her "approved list" (TJ, Langley, Madison, McLean and Oakton) are filled to the brim with "high achievers."

Some of us actually have had positive experiences with IB schools - as Rumor can attest - and we are sick of Neen's lies and propaganda. It took many posts from Rumor to get Neen to acknowledge, grudgingly, what you readily agree is the case: that IB schools can be, and are, full of high-achieving students as well. By most conventional criteria, both Robinson and Marshall clearly are among the top-performing schools in the county. You would also find many success stories at schools like Annandale and Stuart, which have a significantly larger number of students who are recent immigrants or receiving assistance.

If Neen wanted to criticize the IB curriculum, fine. If she wanted to question some of the bizarre judgments of the School Board, even better. But day in and day out, for months on end, she has lobbed granades at well-intentioned and successful students, parents and teachers. Some of her attacks have included personal attacks on the appearance of the South Lakes PTA president or on individual South Lakes students who took the risk of posting on this thread. As long as she continues to insult others and engage in over-generalizations that lack factual support, other posters will call her on it. I'm far from the first, and likely won't be the last.

I don't want to exaggerate the importance of an message board that allows people to post anonymously at 4:00 in the afternoon or 2:30 in the morning, but some people do read the posts. Some may be deciding whether to buy a house in a particular neighborhood; others may already live in a neighborhood but seeking additional information about whether to allow their children to attend a local junior high school or high school. Some may be inclined to credit Neen's posts - she does have insight into the byzantine politics of the School Board, her children graduated from local schools, and it is not exactly a closely-held secret that she has served on advisory panels to the School Board. South Lakes may have unique issues, but there are other IB schools besides South Lakes, and parents of students at those schools are not going to sit quietly when Neen repeatedly spouts what we consider, based on our own experience and observation, to be non-sense. We have much more at stake in the schools and our communities right now than she does.

I meant to say you'd better start looking at private schools, and even then you may not be happy.

GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella,
>
> You should be careful not to spread hearsay as
> fact. Kids are not guaranteed a spot in any
> university. Spots are obtained on the basis of
> hard work and many other factors. I am curious if
> you have been guaranteed by any other public
> middle school that your child will receive
> individualized treatment that will foster academic
> growth. I doubt that any exist in FFX county that
> will meet your expectations. You'd better start
> looking at public schools. BTW, I don't think
> it's fair for you to slam Hughes or South Lakes,
> schools that you apparently have never had a child
> enrolled in, on the basis of your daughter's
> needs. You write as if you expect the school to
> raise her and educate her so that you don't have
> to. It doesn't work that way, unless you want to
> live in a nanny state.

Well said, Professor. Where did you get your degree in Neenology?


> South Lakes may have unique issues, but there are other
> IB schools besides South Lakes, and parents of
> students at those schools are not going to sit
> quietly when Neen repeatedly spouts what we
> consider, based on our own experience and
> observation, to be non-sense. We have much more
> at stake in the schools and our communities right
> now than she does.

It's readily apparent you haven't read any of my other posts.

My daughter comes into the school with a high level of knowledge and a strong skill set and parental values that support homework and education in general. I don't expect the school to do everything. However, I don't expect them to do NOTHING on the basis that she's already doing well.

That's what countless parents are dealing with. I expect the school to build upon her knowledge and skillset. There are other kids to educate in a school besides the bottom 25% so that the school can make AYP. I don't expect her to be bored to death and it to be a matter of indifference to the principal that this is the case.

You're right, I am better off in a private school. Evidently, many other parents in my Reston neighborhood and other Reston neighborhoods have decided the same thing. People will come back when schools care about their children's education. In the meantime, they're going to St. Albans, Madeira, Potomac School, Flint Hill, Nysmith, St. Marks, St. Leo's, St. Josephs and too many other schools to count.

I believe I'm entitled to talk about Hughes and SL after growing up around here and living here for 15 plus years, fyi.

Finally, I am not spreading innuendo as fact. I've been told by several parents who's children are in IB about their perception of how it is marketed to them -- which is that it virtually guarantees them a spot at a national university. The point is not whether it's true or not -- the point is how is IB being sold to parents and kids from the outset.




GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella,
>
> You should be careful not to spread hearsay as
> fact. Kids are not guaranteed a spot in any
> university. Spots are obtained on the basis of
> hard work and many other factors. I am curious if
> you have been guaranteed by any other public
> middle school that your child will receive
> individualized treatment that will foster academic
> growth. I doubt that any exist in FFX county that
> will meet your expectations. You'd better start
> looking at public schools. BTW, I don't think
> it's fair for you to slam Hughes or South Lakes,
> schools that you apparently have never had a child
> enrolled in, on the basis of your daughter's
> needs. You write as if you expect the school to
> raise her and educate her so that you don't have
> to. It doesn't work that way, unless you want to
> live in a nanny state.

As long as there are parents like you out there who excuse the schools from educating all the kids in its school instead of thinking the only kids who deserve attention are those who are failing, expect numerous Reston parents to continue fleeing to private schools, or move to an area where public schools are capable of doing more with its kids than this.



GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I meant to say you'd better start looking at
> private schools, and even then you may not be
> happy.
>
> GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cinderella,
> >
> > You should be careful not to spread hearsay as
> > fact. Kids are not guaranteed a spot in any
> > university. Spots are obtained on the basis of
> > hard work and many other factors. I am curious
> if
> > you have been guaranteed by any other public
> > middle school that your child will receive
> > individualized treatment that will foster
> academic
> > growth. I doubt that any exist in FFX county
> that
> > will meet your expectations. You'd better
> start
> > looking at public schools. BTW, I don't think
> > it's fair for you to slam Hughes or South
> Lakes,
> > schools that you apparently have never had a
> child
> > enrolled in, on the basis of your daughter's
> > needs. You write as if you expect the school
> to
> > raise her and educate her so that you don't
> have
> > to. It doesn't work that way, unless you want
> to
> > live in a nanny state.

There is no question that IB can work for a number of kids. It doesn't work for everyone.

I agree that whatever issues SL has are distinct from IB per se.

However, IB v. AP is a very personal one. If you're firmly in one camp, you'll never convince the other side, nor is it anyone's job to do so. Let communities decide what they want, and have the School Board respect this. If parents want something else, give them the opportunity to pupil place out. There is no point in ramming anything down anyone's throat.

I prefer debates on the merits or demerits of any issue. Ad hominem is not the way to go here for anyone concerned. My point is as simple as that. Two wrongs don't make a right.


Neenologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't see what you're adding to the
> conversation
> > other than desiring to beat up on Neen.
> >
> > I live in the SL pyramid. The question isn't
> > whether there are any good kids whatsoever. Of
> > course there are. We live in one of the most
> > affluent areas in the United States.
> >
> > The question is do the schools here foster an
> > environment that emphasizes true intellectual
> > gains regardless of what level you come in at,
> and
> > the answer, on the basis of many years of
> > experience in this pyrmaid, is an unequivocal
> no.
> >
> > I've been told countless times that "things
> will
> > be fine" because I'm an educated white parent
> who
> > watches over the homework and does the right
> thing
> > for my child. Okay, so what. Why send them to
> > school at all, then? I'd like to know what
> > precisely the school brings to the equation.
> I'd
> > like to know if my child will get some
> attention
> > and focus in the classroom. Maybe for some
> > parents, they feel their child doesn't need
> this.
> > But my daughter does need this. She's been
> going
> > for 6 plus years now doing very well but no one
> > ever focusing on getting her to the next level.
>
> > I'm not waiting until the end of high school to
> > figure out that they never will.
> >
> > If you want to know why parents like myself
> don't
> > want to send their kids to the schools here,
> this
> > is one of the main reasons.
> >
> > I also think science and math are weak at SL.
> > Again -- not innuendo. Take a look at the
> scores.
> >
> >
> > If there were an IB school in the County that
> > supplemented with AP math and science courses
> like
> > George Mason in Falls Church City, I'd be there
> in
> > a heartbeat. But they don't. The majority of
> > elementary school parents I know do not like
> the
> > IB program at all, and regarding the middle
> school
> > program, have only heard negative things about
> it.
> > High school -- we hear mixed things. I was
> told
> > by the mother of a young woman in the IB
> program
> > that everyone in the IB program is told that
> they
> > are virtually guaranteed a top slot at a
> national
> > university by virtue of the diploma. Again --
> > heady words that deserve a fair degree of
> > skepticism.
> >
> Cinderella - Neen may be your fairy godmother;
> she's not ours.
>
> I don't doubt your negative experience with the
> Reston area schools or second-guess the tough
> decisions you apparently now confront. But this
> thread has not been limited to the South Lakes
> redistricting or pyramid for a long time. For
> many months on end, Neen has disparaged every IB
> school in the county, as well as most students who
> attend those schools, while at the same time
> suggesting that students who attend a very small
> number of schools on her "approved list" (TJ,
> Langley, Madison, McLean and Oakton) are filled to
> the brim with "high achievers."
>
> Some of us actually have had positive experiences
> with IB schools - as Rumor can attest - and we are
> sick of Neen's lies and propaganda. It took many
> posts from Rumor to get Neen to acknowledge,
> grudgingly, what you readily agree is the case:
> that IB schools can be, and are, full of
> high-achieving students as well. By most
> conventional criteria, both Robinson and Marshall
> clearly are among the top-performing schools in
> the county. You would also find many success
> stories at schools like Annandale and Stuart,
> which have a significantly larger number of
> students who are recent immigrants or receiving
> assistance.
>
> If Neen wanted to criticize the IB curriculum,
> fine. If she wanted to question some of the
> bizarre judgments of the School Board, even
> better. But day in and day out, for months on
> end, she has lobbed granades at well-intentioned
> and successful students, parents and teachers.
> Some of her attacks have included personal attacks
> on the appearance of the South Lakes PTA president
> or on individual South Lakes students who took the
> risk of posting on this thread. As long as she
> continues to insult others and engage in
> over-generalizations that lack factual support,
> other posters will call her on it. I'm far from
> the first, and likely won't be the last.
>
> I don't want to exaggerate the importance of an
> message board that allows people to post
> anonymously at 4:00 in the afternoon or 2:30 in
> the morning, but some people do read the posts.
> Some may be deciding whether to buy a house in a
> particular neighborhood; others may already live
> in a neighborhood but seeking additional
> information about whether to allow their children
> to attend a local junior high school or high
> school. Some may be inclined to credit Neen's
> posts - she does have insight into the byzantine
> politics of the School Board, her children
> graduated from local schools, and it is not
> exactly a closely-held secret that she has served
> on advisory panels to the School Board. South
> Lakes may have unique issues, but there are other
> IB schools besides South Lakes, and parents of
> students at those schools are not going to sit
> quietly when Neen repeatedly spouts what we
> consider, based on our own experience and
> observation, to be non-sense. We have much more
> at stake in the schools and our communities right
> now than she does.

Stats Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The general point that IB schools, in the
> aggregate, have a lower percentage of graduates
> obtaining Advanced Studies diplomas is accurate.
> However, of the 25 county high schools, two IB
> schools were in the top 10 in terms of percentage
> of graduates receiving Advanced Studies Diplomas:
> Marshall (#5) and Robinson (#9). South Lakes was
> #12.
>
This is the complete list, based on the data helpfully supplied by Forum Reader:

Jefferson 100%
Langley 82.2
Woodson 76.0
McLean 75.5
Marshall 73.6
Madison 71.6
Oakton 71.1
Westfield 71.0
Robinson 69.4
West Springfield 68.8
Chantilly 68.4
South Lakes 67.8
South County 66.4
Centreville 66.1
Lake Braddock 65.7
Herndon 65.3
Falls Church 64.2
Stuart 63.9
Fairfax 61.5
West Potomac 60.3
Lee 57.9
Annandale 54.4
Hayfield 52.4
Mount Vernon 48.1
Edison 47.8

The reston school situation is no different than what is across the US. ffx cnty has some great schools, so move to that areas. you cannot improve any school - a small handful of parents cannot turn the tide. It is difficult getting RDed from Oakton, but look at what happened in Maryland. They build a interstate connector through so many neighbourhoods and all of them found their houses backing or fronting to a 10 lane highway. The flooding in mid west has left so many houses destroyed. Stuff happens. So move on. Compared to all the other problems this one can be solved by pupil placing, moving or private. If you think you are unfortunate just look around, worse things can happen to your beloved neighbourhood.
But the middle school RD. That just proves that how low this School Board can go. Throwing these areas into Hughes from Carson just when they lost Oakton, is like shooting a wounded soldier when he is anyway down. Downright mean,

I am a very grateful for everything I have, and am a very fortunate person. And so is my child.

However, I don't believe my viewpoints are unrepresentative of many in the Reston community, and believe I was being criticized on that basis that I have a different perspective. The numerous families in Reston who have left for private school deserve to be heard, too.


get over it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reston school situation is no different than
> what is across the US. ffx cnty has some great
> schools, so move to that areas. you cannot improve
> any school - a small handful of parents cannot
> turn the tide. It is difficult getting RDed from
> Oakton, but look at what happened in Maryland.
> They build a interstate connector through so many
> neighbourhoods and all of them found their houses
> backing or fronting to a 10 lane highway. The
> flooding in mid west has left so many houses
> destroyed. Stuff happens. So move on. Compared to
> all the other problems this one can be solved by
> pupil placing, moving or private. If you think you
> are unfortunate just look around, worse things can
> happen to your beloved neighbourhood.
> But the middle school RD. That just proves that
> how low this School Board can go. Throwing these
> areas into Hughes from Carson just when they lost
> Oakton, is like shooting a wounded soldier when he
> is anyway down. Downright mean,

get over it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reston school situation is no different than
> what is across the US. ffx cnty has some great
> schools, so move to that areas. you cannot improve
> any school - a small handful of parents cannot
> turn the tide. It is difficult getting RDed from
> Oakton, but look at what happened in Maryland.
> They build a interstate connector through so many
> neighbourhoods and all of them found their houses
> backing or fronting to a 10 lane highway. The
> flooding in mid west has left so many houses
> destroyed. Stuff happens. So move on. Compared to
> all the other problems this one can be solved by
> pupil placing, moving or private. If you think you
> are unfortunate just look around, worse things can
> happen to your beloved neighbourhood.
> But the middle school RD. That just proves that
> how low this School Board can go. Throwing these
> areas into Hughes from Carson just when they lost
> Oakton, is like shooting a wounded soldier when he
> is anyway down. Downright mean,

For a lot of parents, self-help is an available remedy, and the best one available under the circumstances. I can't agree, though, that "you cannot improve any school." There are a number of schools in the county that are in much better shape than they were 10 years ago. I'd put both Stuart (pre-Riddile) and Marshall in that category. On the other hand, if a tipping point has been reached and confidence lost amongst a significant part of the public, a redistricting that temporarily adds a few more bodies is not much of a solution. I think Cinderella's posts speak to that quite movingly.

taxpayer Wrote:
> Jay Matthews of the Washington Post wrote a book
> called Supertest about IB implementation. It
> provides some history on the entire process in
> FCPS. The book is in FX libraries. ...

Thanks for the tip. I picked up the book and read the first twelve pages. A few excerpts:

Page 3, when Mt Vernon first got IB: "The rewards for all the Mount Vernon students' hard work seemed to be less than that what had been promised. One of Calhoon's students had done particularly poorly, and this was a problem because he was the student government president, with a resume that would impress a corporate recruiter. He was the kind of student who everyone expected would go to a big-name college, and he made it clear he thought he would have gotten better grades in his courses, and looked more attractive to the Ivy League colleges he craved, if he had taken regular courses rather than IB. But that was no longer an option for him or any other ambitious Mount Vernon student. The college admissions officers, knowing that his was an IB school, would have penalized him if he had tried to avoid taking IB. That would have been to them a sign of inadequate strength and confidence, poison to anyone wanting to get into a brand name university. ... He failed to get into the Ivy League..."

Page 9: School Board member "Amundson thought Mount Vernon ... needed a shot of adrenaline, something that would convince the middle-class parents that there was no irreversible downward spiral. She had to end the embarrassment of parents at cocktail parties who got pitying looks when they said their kids went to Mount Vernon High." Page 10 states she "lobbied other school board members, cutting deal after deal to gather support for their pet projects, asking what they wanted in return. She told friends the other board members didn't know the difference between IB and the NCAA, they they knew that it wasn't going to affect their constituents one way or another."

Page 12: Stuart and Mt Vernon were selected for IB "because their schools, at least in relation to the other high schools in their very affluent school district, were in trouble. Their middle-class parents were thinking of private school or moving to other neighborhoods."

"Supertest" Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> > Jay Matthews of the Washington Post wrote a
> book
> > called Supertest about IB implementation. It
> > provides some history on the entire process in
> > FCPS. The book is in FX libraries. ...
>
> Thanks for the tip. I picked up the book and read
> the first twelve pages. A few excerpts:
>
> Page 3, when Mt Vernon first got IB: "The rewards
> for all the Mount Vernon students' hard work
> seemed to be less than that what had been
> promised. One of Calhoon's students had done
> particularly poorly, and this was a problem
> because he was the student government president,
> with a resume that would impress a corporate
> recruiter. He was the kind of student who everyone
> expected would go to a big-name college, and he
> made it clear he thought he would have gotten
> better grades in his courses, and looked more
> attractive to the Ivy League colleges he craved,
> if he had taken regular courses rather than IB.
> But that was no longer an option for him or any
> other ambitious Mount Vernon student. The college
> admissions officers, knowing that his was an IB
> school, would have penalized him if he had tried
> to avoid taking IB. That would have been to them a
> sign of inadequate strength and confidence, poison
> to anyone wanting to get into a brand name
> university. ... He failed to get into the Ivy
> League..."
>
> Page 9: School Board member "Amundson thought
> Mount Vernon ... needed a shot of adrenaline,
> something that would convince the middle-class
> parents that there was no irreversible downward
> spiral. She had to end the embarrassment of
> parents at cocktail parties who got pitying looks
> when they said their kids went to Mount Vernon
> High." Page 10 states she "lobbied other school
> board members, cutting deal after deal to gather
> support for their pet projects, asking what they
> wanted in return. She told friends the other board
> members didn't know the difference between IB and
> the NCAA, they they knew that it wasn't going to
> affect their constituents one way or another."
>
> Page 12: Stuart and Mt Vernon were selected for IB
> "because their schools, at least in relation to
> the other high schools in their very affluent
> school district, were in trouble. Their
> middle-class parents were thinking of private
> school or moving to other neighborhoods."

Interesting. Do you plan to continue with the updates? I don't want to get you in trouble for copyright infrigement, but I had no idea that a reporter ever thought this was worth an entire book. [The South Lakes redistricting, on the other hand, should be a week-long mini-series.] Guess I could go to the library myself and find a copy.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
> Interesting. Do you plan to continue with the
> updates? I don't want to get you in trouble for
> copyright infrigement, but I had no idea that a
> reporter ever thought this was worth an entire
> book. ...

Sorry, but I already am about at the normal 300-word limit for copyright purposes.

From what I have read, this Washington Post reporter confirms Neen's comments that IB was instituted in part as a reaction to "White Flight."

When will the scope of the Coppermine study be out? Does the public get to comment on the scope or on the criteria? I mean, I know they are going to wait for the lawsuit (keep your fingers crossed for this Thursday!!). But how soon afterwards will they let the public know their next evil plan?

The "lawsuit" is a complete joke, don't expect anything.

I hope they do send these kids to Hughes. Hughes is not so bad, and the infusion of more middle class kids will make it better. Why should Carson get all the middle class kids...it is enough that Carson is nice and new.

People need to lighten up. Transfering from a great school to an okay school is no big deal...the kids will be fine. Maybe better. It is not like going to a school in southeast DC.




so sad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When will the scope of the Coppermine study be
> out? Does the public get to comment on the scope
> or on the criteria? I mean, I know they are going
> to wait for the lawsuit (keep your fingers crossed
> for this Thursday!!). But how soon afterwards
> will they let the public know their next evil
> plan?

Cinderella Wrote:
> ... I prefer debates on the merits or demerits of any
> issue. Ad hominem is not the way to go here for
> anyone concerned. ...
>
Bravo. Nicely said. Please keep posting, even when we disagree.

Did you not see the scam the School Board pulled off in the South Lakes RD. Gisbon has already decided to send FM and Floris to Hughes. The notification and public hearing formalities will be completed this fall, but all the decisions have been made. Stu Gibson is the sole decider. This is totally in Hunter Mill, so all other 9 members will side with Gibson. Moon has no opinion and will always side with his old buddies. So 10 - 2 again. Coppermine areas and Hughes is already a done deal. The motions are just left to be followed ...

so sad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When will the scope of the Coppermine study be
> out? Does the public get to comment on the scope
> or on the criteria? I mean, I know they are going
> to wait for the lawsuit (keep your fingers crossed
> for this Thursday!!). But how soon afterwards
> will they let the public know their next evil
> plan?

What is in it for the middle class kids who will be dumped into Hughes? Nothing. Only loss of good school. Why should these kids sacrifice so that Reston can benefit?

so what Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope they do send these kids to Hughes. Hughes
> is not so bad, and the infusion of more middle
> class kids will make it better. Why should Carson
> get all the middle class kids...it is enough that
> Carson is nice and new.
>
> People need to lighten up. Transfering from a
> great school to an okay school is no big
> deal...the kids will be fine. Maybe better. It
> is not like going to a school in southeast DC.
>
>
>
>
> so sad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When will the scope of the Coppermine study be
> > out? Does the public get to comment on the
> scope
> > or on the criteria? I mean, I know they are
> going
> > to wait for the lawsuit (keep your fingers
> crossed
> > for this Thursday!!). But how soon afterwards
> > will they let the public know their next evil
> > plan?

so what Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope they do send these kids to Hughes. Hughes
> is not so bad, and the infusion of more middle
> class kids will make it better. Why should Carson
> get all the middle class kids...it is enough that
> Carson is nice and new.
>
> People need to lighten up. Transfering from a
> great school to an okay school is no big
> deal...the kids will be fine. Maybe better. It
> is not like going to a school in southeast DC.
>
>
Spoken like a real sideline troll, who has no kids in any of the schools involved, and not from any of the neighborhoods being screwed.

It's much broader than this. This is the attitude that harms Reston parents who are leaving for private schools. This is the attitude that prevents all of us from moving forward.

Everything is "good enough". The attitude is "lighten up, things will be fine."

I know they will be fine. But I want a school that fosters the development of all its kids instead of just telling me "things are fine". I want a school where the principals, teachers and students strive to be their personal best, not just okay. It's as much about attitude as results. Results and test scores are a culmination of many things going right in a school, but it all starts with the right attitude. "Good enough" and "take a seat, what are you complaining about already" are not the attitudes I want my daughter immersed in for another 2 years.

In response to an earlier post -- the elementary schools and Hughes are weak. The elementary schools of Sunrise Valley and HW -- two significant feeder schools -- are getting even weaker. So the issue is that people are pulling their kids in elementary or middle school and will not bother to show up at SL by that point. It's a big big issue in the SL pyramid.




SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so what Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I hope they do send these kids to Hughes.
> Hughes
> > is not so bad, and the infusion of more middle
> > class kids will make it better. Why should
> Carson
> > get all the middle class kids...it is enough
> that
> > Carson is nice and new.
> >
> > People need to lighten up. Transfering from a
> > great school to an okay school is no big
> > deal...the kids will be fine. Maybe better.
> It
> > is not like going to a school in southeast DC.
> >
> >
> Spoken like a real sideline troll, who has no kids
> in any of the schools involved, and not from any
> of the neighborhoods being screwed.

What are the best private schools in Northern Virginia. I hear Flint Hill is pretty good?

It depends on the child. There are real differences amongst private schools, so you need to make the decision carefully.

Lester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are the best private schools in Northern
> Virginia. I hear Flint Hill is pretty good?

A poster recently took issue with Neen's repeatedly identifying TJ, Langley, McLean, Madison and Oakton as the top schools in the county. I have done an analysis based on averaging the following student performance statistics: (1) performance on SATs, (2) performance on SOLs, (3) percentage of students receiving Advanced Diplomas and (4) ranking on the Newsweek "Challenge Index."

This is what my analysis shows. Except for her inclusion of Madison in the top five, Neen is not far off the mark.

1. Jefferson
2. Langley
3. McLean
4. Woodson
5. Oakton
6. Madison
7. Marshall
8. Lake Braddock
9. Robinson
10. Chantilly
11. Westfield
12. West Springfield
13. Centreville
14. Herndon
15. South County
16. Fairfax
17. South Lakes
18. Stuart
19. Falls Church
20. West Potomac
21. Lee
22. Annandale
22. Edison (tie)
24. Hayfield
24. Mount Vernon (tie)

I believe that, without crunching all the numbers, parents intuitively have a feel for these performance measures. As a result, a redistricting that sends students from Oakton (#5), Madison (#6) or Westfield (#11) to South Lakes (#17), not surprisingly, leads to considerable community opposition.

Moving down the rankings, one can also see some of the reasons why, even though there is extra capacity at schools such as Hayfield and Mount Vernon (tied for #24), parents at South County (#15) have gone to great lengths to convince the School Board to build new schools in their neighborhood, thus successfully avoiding a redistricting to lower-performing schools.

On the other hand, redistrictings involving Madison (#6) and Marshall (#7), Woodson (#4) and Lake Braddock (#8), or Falls Church (#19) and Annandale (#22) should be more acceptable to local communities, were the need for such a redistricting to arise.

First of all, thanks to FR and WestfieldDad about bringing up the data regarding advanced and IB diplomas. I just wanted to see what the data was for these students earning advanced/IB diplomas in Fairfax County.

Thanks, Cinderella for your posts, they have been interesting, especially one being from Reston. I thought your last post was nicely said with the concept of the right attitude and strong leadership to be fostered in a school pyramid. Not just "oh things will be fine" from being redistricted from a great school to an okay school or a low performing school, whatever words certain posters post from.

There were some discussion earlier from this thread about the middle schools whether Fox Mill and Floris were going to go to Hughes. A poster said Gibson said that there would not be any changes to the middle schools. Now with this development that the school board has not ruled out the middle school boundaries, this has got to be the biggest scam Gibson has pulled for his constituents with some being benefited and others being screwed. As repeatedly said from this thread with different posters, Gibson needs to go.

Actually, South County Silverbrookers (ie The Neighbors of Liz Bradsher) fought bitterly to stay in South County and not be redistricted to Lake Braddock. Because of the selfishness of Bradsher and her cronies, the SC middle school is slated to be pushed ahead about 5 years thus bumping all CIP projects. This in a time of massive school budget cuts.

There was no reason not to redistrict North Silverbrook to Lake Braddock. LB and SC are both AP schools. They are both secondary schools for grades 7-12. There are kids in the current LBSS boundaries that actually live further south and east than the kids of northwest portion of SCSS.

Angry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, South County Silverbrookers (ie The
> Neighbors of Liz Bradsher) fought bitterly to stay
> in South County and not be redistricted to Lake
> Braddock. Because of the selfishness of Bradsher
> and her cronies, the SC middle school is slated to
> be pushed ahead about 5 years thus bumping all CIP
> projects. This in a time of massive school budget
> cuts.
>
> There was no reason not to redistrict North
> Silverbrook to Lake Braddock. LB and SC are both
> AP schools. They are both secondary schools for
> grades 7-12. There are kids in the current LBSS
> boundaries that actually live further south and
> east than the kids of northwest portion of SCSS.

I think this has been asked before, but what if anything does CAPS plan to say about this? It is amazing to me that the School Board has gone ahead with this plan so shortly after the South Lakes fiasco. The parents at West Springfield and other schools must be going nuts.

After reading the this thread I can assure you I would not send any of my kids to any Fairfax Public Schools. We just moved here from a wealthy area of New York State and are looking for good schools.

How good is Madeira School or Flint Hill?



Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It depends on the child. There are real
> differences amongst private schools, so you need
> to make the decision carefully.
>
> Lester Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What are the best private schools in Northern
> > Virginia. I hear Flint Hill is pretty good?

Everyone needs to understand why you have not heard the voices of so many Reston parents who send their kids to private school.

In essence -- they're completely disengaged. They have no intent of ever sending their kids to the public school here unless significant -- not incremental -- improvements are made. They're not holding their breath, so why be engaged in this process. That assumes a good outcome would be in the realm of possibility in a timeframe that would benefit their child, and I don't know anyone who believes this at this point.

Every single time a parent such as myself withdraws their child from the public school for private school, it reinforces the thinking of parents who would never give the public schools a chance to begin with.

I only wish everyone could hear the stories of the parents who took their kids out of the public schools here. It would shed much more light on the situation than is currently the case, and stop the monolithic voices coming from SL telling us "all is well" or "things are good enough". The parents in the elementary schools don't have 8 years to muddle through before we get to SL. Sorry.






Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, thanks to FR and WestfieldDad about
> bringing up the data regarding advanced and IB
> diplomas. I just wanted to see what the data was
> for these students earning advanced/IB diplomas in
> Fairfax County.
>
> Thanks, Cinderella for your posts, they have been
> interesting, especially one being from Reston. I
> thought your last post was nicely said with the
> concept of the right attitude and strong
> leadership to be fostered in a school pyramid.
> Not just "oh things will be fine" from being
> redistricted from a great school to an okay school
> or a low performing school, whatever words certain
> posters post from.
>
> There were some discussion earlier from this
> thread about the middle schools whether Fox Mill
> and Floris were going to go to Hughes. A poster
> said Gibson said that there would not be any
> changes to the middle schools. Now with this
> development that the school board has not ruled
> out the middle school boundaries, this has got to
> be the biggest scam Gibson has pulled for his
> constituents with some being benefited and others
> being screwed. As repeatedly said from this
> thread with different posters, Gibson needs to go.

If Cinderella actually took the time to speak with parents who aren't disaffected and seeking private schools, she might just find that not all parents think their children aren't being challenged. My children were challenged plenty at Hughes and SL and have gone on to be productive college students at top-ranked universities. Both were IB dilploma students and not once were they or I or their father told that they were guaranteed a spot at a national university. Her statement otherwise is patently false. When she hears that pitch herself, she is happy to post it here. In addition, the notion that Hughes and other Reston schools do 'nothing' to help her above-average children is wrong-headed.

I would remind Cindyrella that parents of a certain income level all over this County choose private school. Where does she think many of the kids who populate Madeira and Potomac and other privates come from? Many of them live right in McLean and Langley, and many of their parents would never consider public school, period.

When Cinderella can speak directly to the facts, and not based on hearsay by some who were perhaps looking for excuses to bail, I will be happy to heed her words.

Cinderella, I have lived in my Reston neighborhood for twenty-five years and not once has a parent in my hood pulled a child out of the public schools and put them in private. Just last year, 4 kids out of 58 homes were admitted to UVA from South Lakes. So doesn't that negate what you say about your neighborhood? Perhaps those in your neighborhood were inclined not to like the pyramid from the outset. I know a few neighborhoods like that, and two in particular that petitioned (unsuccessfully) to be removed from the pyramid. I applauded the school board's decision, because those homeowners bought in the pyramid with their eyes wide open. Perhaps because they lost that bid they are determined not to attend at any rate. Who cares? We are talking about a handful of people.

BTW, were you for or against redistricting? Did you support efforts to bring more middle class students into SL? I'll bet you didn't care because you have already made your mind up. Aren't I right.

You've already decided so many things about me -- my income level, my neighborhood, my involvement with the schools, my position on RD -- that no matter what I say, you won't hear what I'm saying.

None of the things you seem to think about me are true, but that's okay, I won't convince you anyway, will I?

There are longstanding Reston families leaving the schools. It's just that simple. If your kids had a better experience, then I tip my hat to you. I never said that they didn't work for anyone -- I said they are not working for a good percentage. Perhaps you could extend a hand to people who genuinely want to go back to the public schools to make them better instead of shooting the messenger.

GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella, I have lived in my Reston neighborhood
> for twenty-five years and not once has a parent in
> my hood pulled a child out of the public schools
> and put them in private. Just last year, 4 kids
> out of 58 homes were admitted to UVA from South
> Lakes. So doesn't that negate what you say about
> your neighborhood? Perhaps those in your
> neighborhood were inclined not to like the pyramid
> from the outset. I know a few neighborhoods like
> that, and two in particular that petitioned
> (unsuccessfully) to be removed from the pyramid.
> I applauded the school board's decision, because
> those homeowners bought in the pyramid with their
> eyes wide open. Perhaps because they lost that
> bid they are determined not to attend at any rate.
> Who cares? We are talking about a handful of
> people.
>
> BTW, were you for or against redistricting? Did
> you support efforts to bring more middle class
> students into SL? I'll bet you didn't care
> because you have already made your mind up. Aren't
> I right.

I haven't made any assumptions about you, except that I don't think that you supported redistricting, and you didn't answer that question, did you?

Any experience that differs from your own is obviously false and invalid. You know Reston, and I obviously don't. In fact, the numerous Reston families I know that pulled their kids from the schools must be wrongheaded, too, right?

Okay.

Need I say more?

You think you're helping your case by shooting me down, but you're not. Pay attention to what is happening at the feeder schools, and that's where the solutions will begin. This has nothing to do with SL. The people I know there who think IB is a good fit for their child are very happy. I have no issues acknowledging this.


GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Cinderella actually took the time to speak with
> parents who aren't disaffected and seeking private
> schools, she might just find that not all parents
> think their children aren't being challenged. My
> children were challenged plenty at Hughes and SL
> and have gone on to be productive college students
> at top-ranked universities. Both were IB dilploma
> students and not once were they or I or their
> father told that they were guaranteed a spot at a
> national university. Her statement otherwise is
> patently false. When she hears that pitch
> herself, she is happy to post it here. In
> addition, the notion that Hughes and other Reston
> schools do 'nothing' to help her above-average
> children is wrong-headed.
>
> I would remind Cindyrella that parents of a
> certain income level all over this County choose
> private school. Where does she think many of the
> kids who populate Madeira and Potomac and other
> privates come from? Many of them live right in
> McLean and Langley, and many of their parents
> would never consider public school, period.
>
> When Cinderella can speak directly to the facts,
> and not based on hearsay by some who were perhaps
> looking for excuses to bail, I will be happy to
> heed her words.

What is your point here, Cinderella? Now that you have made up your mind to place your child in private, are you determined to poison the well for those that are choosing to stay and work hard to improve the pyramid? Do you want to malign your neighborhood schools such that no one who has been redistricted will want to come? Or, are you so 'disengaged,' as you say, as to not give a rats patooty how your words might be disheartening to those who work very hard to support the schools, worked very hard to support redistricting and are working harder still to turn the pyramid around?

They are both excellent schools.

Are they high school age or no?

Don't rule out schools in the District. There are a number of parents who send their kids to great private schools for high school, and there is car-pooling.

In fact, I know several families in VA sending their children to private schools in MD. Even from as far out as Burke.

Each school has a different philosophy, so I would take the time to make sure there is a good fit.

Lester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After reading the this thread I can assure you I
> would not send any of my kids to any Fairfax
> Public Schools. We just moved here from a wealthy
> area of New York State and are looking for good
> schools.
>
> How good is Madeira School or Flint Hill?
>
>
>
> Cinderella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It depends on the child. There are real
> > differences amongst private schools, so you
> need
> > to make the decision carefully.
> >
> > Lester Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > What are the best private schools in Northern
> > > Virginia. I hear Flint Hill is pretty good?

Cinderella, I know a neighborhood that sounds a lot like the one in which you describe living. It is called Hunter Mill Estates and that neighborhood petitioned two years ago to be removed from the SL pyramid and was denied the request. Many of those families never even gave SVES or the upper schools a chance and never really intended to. But if you don't live there then this post won't bother you.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is your point here, Cinderella? Now that you
> have made up your mind to place your child in
> private, are you determined to poison the well for
> those that are choosing to stay and work hard to
> improve the pyramid? Do you want to malign your
> neighborhood schools such that no one who has been
> redistricted will want to come? Or, are you so
> 'disengaged,' as you say, as to not give a rats
> patooty how your words might be disheartening to
> those who work very hard to support the schools,
> worked very hard to support redistricting and are
> working harder still to turn the pyramid around?

Why not work hard to support the schools, work harder still to turn the pyramid around, and then - and only then - broach the possibility of redistricting with the School Board and neighboring schools? South Lakes is not the only school that would benefit from a higher enrollment, but the School Board spent an enormous amount of political capital to advance the SL agenda pushed by Stuart Gibson. Have you considered whether the heavy-handed nature of the SL redistricting may have "poisoned the well" for other schools outside Reston that would also benefit from additional students?

Perhaps you could answer those questions before you ask Cinderella to swear on the Bible and take her Reston loyalty oath.

My decision to place in private was made quite reluctantly, as my daughter has great friends. I worked very hard at my school to make things better.

Again, you jump to conclusions about me with no basis whatsoever.

To make things better, you have to acknowledge that some of the feeder elementary schools and Hughes have real issues that have to be addressed head on. We have weak principals that need to be removed. We need faster progress at Hughes. We have high teacher turnover at a number of the elementary schools. We have principals who squash any voice of dissension and micromanage PTAs so that no real parental input is possible.

Many Reston families have left. Extend a hand to them to return and work with them to make things better. Ask the principals to be engaged when families decide to leave their schools instead of giving them a shrug and asking where they want the records sent. It starts with the principals. There are so many parents in my neighborhood who have left the local public school, and I don't know a single one who said to me that the principal made a real effort to help them stay and resolve their concerns.

If parents could support one another instead of ganging up on each other when they indicate why they left, we could make the schools better. But not when we're told there was no basis for us to leave and we're part of the problem so good riddance. Or our experiences are per se false.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is your point here, Cinderella? Now that you
> have made up your mind to place your child in
> private, are you determined to poison the well for
> those that are choosing to stay and work hard to
> improve the pyramid? Do you want to malign your
> neighborhood schools such that no one who has been
> redistricted will want to come? Or, are you so
> 'disengaged,' as you say, as to not give a rats
> patooty how your words might be disheartening to
> those who work very hard to support the schools,
> worked very hard to support redistricting and are
> working harder still to turn the pyramid around?

There are families there who send their children to SVES and actively support the school. Sorry. Ask the PTA and they will confirm.

Any other stereotypes about rich people you'd like to throw in while you're at it? Let's get them all out on the table!!!! This should be fun.


Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella, I know a neighborhood that sounds a
> lot like the one in which you describe living. It
> is called Hunter Mill Estates and that
> neighborhood petitioned two years ago to be
> removed from the SL pyramid and was denied the
> request. Many of those families never even gave
> SVES or the upper schools a chance and never
> really intended to. But if you don't live there
> then this post won't bother you.

Looks like these schools will have students at the right social level, homes above $400,000.

Any favorites out of these?

Fairfax County Private School Overview:

Town $ H.V. High School # Stud. G.O. (HV=Median Home Value)

Fairfax $427,400 Bethlehem Bapt Christian Academy 308 PK-12

Fairfax $427,400 Little Flock Christian School 141 PK-8

Fairfax $427,400 Oak Valley Center (Special Education School) 45 3-12

Fairfax $427,400 Trinity Christian School 551 K-12

Fairfax $427,400 Way Of Faith Christian Acedemy 183 K-12

Fairfax Station $403,700 Fairfax Baptist Temple Academy 277 NS-12

Mclean $388,609 The Madeira School All-girls 302 9-12

Mclean $388,609 The Potomac School 871 NS-12

9. Oakton $353,500 Flint Hill School 896 PK-12

"Supertest" Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> > Jay Matthews of the Washington Post wrote a
> book
> > called Supertest about IB implementation. It
> > provides some history on the entire process in
> > FCPS. The book is in FX libraries. ...
>
> Thanks for the tip. I picked up the book and read
> the first twelve pages. A few excerpts:
>
> Page 3, when Mt Vernon first got IB: "The rewards
> for all the Mount Vernon students' hard work
> seemed to be less than that what had been
> promised. One of Calhoon's students had done
> particularly poorly, and this was a problem
> because he was the student government president,
> with a resume that would impress a corporate
> recruiter. He was the kind of student who everyone
> expected would go to a big-name college, and he
> made it clear he thought he would have gotten
> better grades in his courses, and looked more
> attractive to the Ivy League colleges he craved,
> if he had taken regular courses rather than IB.
> But that was no longer an option for him or any
> other ambitious Mount Vernon student. The college
> admissions officers, knowing that his was an IB
> school, would have penalized him if he had tried
> to avoid taking IB. That would have been to them a
> sign of inadequate strength and confidence, poison
> to anyone wanting to get into a brand name
> university. ... He failed to get into the Ivy
> League..."
>
> Page 9: School Board member "Amundson thought
> Mount Vernon ... needed a shot of adrenaline,
> something that would convince the middle-class
> parents that there was no irreversible downward
> spiral. She had to end the embarrassment of
> parents at cocktail parties who got pitying looks
> when they said their kids went to Mount Vernon
> High." Page 10 states she "lobbied other school
> board members, cutting deal after deal to gather
> support for their pet projects, asking what they
> wanted in return. She told friends the other board
> members didn't know the difference between IB and
> the NCAA, they they knew that it wasn't going to
> affect their constituents one way or another."
>
> Page 12: Stuart and Mt Vernon were selected for IB
> "because their schools, at least in relation to
> the other high schools in their very affluent
> school district, were in trouble. Their
> middle-class parents were thinking of private
> school or moving to other neighborhoods."

Just what Neener said, they were skeered of white flight.

Cindy, I know parents in your hood who did not sign the petition and who are happy with the pyramid. Some of my best friends live in your neighborhood. I made no assumptions about 'rich' people, although now I know that you consider yourself and your neighborhood 'rich.' LOL How do you know that I am not 'richer?'

Do you honestly think that I don't acknowledge that the feeder schools need help? Unlike, you, though, I choose to stay and help turn things around. Just how fast should Hughes turn around? What is a fair amount of time for a new principal's policies to take effect? Would you say one year of service should reap great results, as you seem to expect or would you give a new principal a little more time before you decided to move on? Is Amy Montecchio a good principal? I happen to think she is and I speak from experience - she was my son's AP at SL. Is she a miracle worker? I don't think so.

BTW, did you have experience with the principals at all the schools that you speak of, or just the one your daughter attended? You would be credible if you stuck to what you know instead of making assumptions about other schools, their PTAs in lockstep with principals, etc. It makes you sound foolish. As a conservative thinking parent, I was never in 'lockstep' with the principals in my children's schools, bucked the status quo plenty, but I did treat them with respect and expected the same in return.

And Not So Obvious, Cinderella doesn't need you to help her out. She is perfectly capable.

What is going on at Sunrise Valley Elementary? I thought their test scores were good?


Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's much broader than this. This is the attitude
> that harms Reston parents who are leaving for
> private schools. This is the attitude that
> prevents all of us from moving forward.
>
> Everything is "good enough". The attitude is
> "lighten up, things will be fine."
>
> I know they will be fine. But I want a school
> that fosters the development of all its kids
> instead of just telling me "things are fine". I
> want a school where the principals, teachers and
> students strive to be their personal best, not
> just okay. It's as much about attitude as
> results. Results and test scores are a
> culmination of many things going right in a
> school, but it all starts with the right attitude.
> "Good enough" and "take a seat, what are you
> complaining about already" are not the attitudes I
> want my daughter immersed in for another 2 years.
>
> In response to an earlier post -- the elementary
> schools and Hughes are weak. The elementary
> schools of Sunrise Valley and HW -- two
> significant feeder schools -- are getting even
> weaker. So the issue is that people are pulling
> their kids in elementary or middle school and will
> not bother to show up at SL by that point. It's a
> big big issue in the SL pyramid.

so what Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope they do send these kids to Hughes. Hughes
> is not so bad, and the infusion of more middle
> class kids will make it better. Why should Carson
> get all the middle class kids...it is enough that
> Carson is nice and new.
>
> People need to lighten up. Transfering from a
> great school to an okay school is no big
> deal...the kids will be fine. Maybe better. It
> is not like going to a school in southeast DC.
>
>
If people wanted their kid to go to Hughes they would have bought their house in Reston. If they wanted their kid to go to school in SE they would have bought there.

Some folks care about their kid's education, some folks don't. We'll put you in the don't care category.

I am not taking the bait and starting an ad hominem debate with you.

I certainly make no presumptions about you, your socioeconomics, your neighborhood, your commitment to the schools or anything else, and I ask that you do the same. That's not what this is about. I have no interest in attacking you personally or proving to you that I care. I know that I do, I know what I've done, and that's why I'm posting on this forum.

I never said that Amy was not capable of being an excellent principal. I am fully aware of her reputation. What I said (if you examined my earlier posts carefully) is that her first priority is improving the bottom 25%. In case you are wondering how I came to this conclusion, I know numerous parents who send their children there, I have had conversations with her and I toured the school. I have no issues with what Amy is trying to do, but it doesn't help my daughter at this point in time and at this critical juncture in her life. I am not the only parent who feels this way. Many Reston parents are unenthused about Hughes, and also do not support the middle school IB program.

Please no more "shoot the messenger." If you're interested in helping Reston's schools, listening to the thoughts, opinions and experiences that differ from your own might help. And please -- no more loyalty tests to Reston. People can think differently from you and still care about this community. Other people have voices that deserve to be heard.

Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cindy, I know parents in your hood who did not
> sign the petition and who are happy with the
> pyramid. Some of my best friends live in your
> neighborhood. I made no assumptions about 'rich'
> people, although now I know that you consider
> yourself and your neighborhood 'rich.' LOL How
> do you know that I am not 'richer?'
>
> Do you honestly think that I don't acknowledge
> that the feeder schools need help? Unlike, you,
> though, I choose to stay and help turn things
> around. Just how fast should Hughes turn around?
> What is a fair amount of time for a new
> principal's policies to take effect? Would you
> say one year of service should reap great results,
> as you seem to expect or would you give a new
> principal a little more time before you decided to
> move on? Is Amy Montecchio a good principal? I
> happen to think she is and I speak from experience
> - she was my son's AP at SL. Is she a miracle
> worker? I don't think so.
>
> BTW, did you have experience with the principals
> at all the schools that you speak of, or just the
> one your daughter attended? You would be credible
> if you stuck to what you know instead of making
> assumptions about other schools, their PTAs in
> lockstep with principals, etc. It makes you sound
> foolish. As a conservative thinking parent, I was
> never in 'lockstep' with the principals in my
> children's schools, bucked the status quo plenty,
> but I did treat them with respect and expected the
> same in return.
>
> And Not So Obvious, Cinderella doesn't need you to
> help her out. She is perfectly capable.

""I've been told by several parents who's children are in IB about their perception of how it is marketed to them -- which is that it virtually guarantees them a spot at a national university. The point is not whether it's true or not -- the point is how is IB being sold to parents and kids from the outset.""

Hilarious that parents believe that crap that FCPS peddles. Even worse the administration knows they can lie and the dumb parents will buy it. Pathetic. Those same idiot parents like to pretend that they are so smart. They're those elite intellectuals, the ones everyone else is laughing at.

public wont be consulted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you not see the scam the School Board pulled
> off in the South Lakes RD. Gisbon has already
> decided to send FM and Floris to Hughes. The
> notification and public hearing formalities will
> be completed this fall, but all the decisions have
> been made. Stu Gibson is the sole decider. This is
> totally in Hunter Mill, so all other 9 members
> will side with Gibson. Moon has no opinion and
> will always side with his old buddies. So 10 - 2
> again. Coppermine areas and Hughes is already a
> done deal. The motions are just left to be
> followed ...

The other school board members don't move their kids around like this? Why only Stu Gibson?

You did make assumptions about me, particularly that I was disparaging 'rich' people. So don't get too high and mighty. Again, I ask you, what is your point? You are leaving the public school system.

I do have a question? If scores for children at Hughes with incomes and backgrounds like yours were comparable to those of like children at surrounding middle schools, what would be the harm in bringing up the bottom? What if the bottom was all that separated Hughes from surrounding schools? What if the students like your daughter were already doing as well? What would your argument with Hughes be then? Could we not then say that you are unfairly maligning Hughes, just because it has more low income students than surrounding schools? Could we not surmise that you will never be satisfied with public schools and that your only recourse is private to get what you want for your daughter?

lots of what Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is in it for the middle class kids who will
> be dumped into Hughes? Nothing. Only loss of good
> school. Why should these kids sacrifice so that
> Reston can benefit?

Cause Stu Gibson wants to help Reston schools. He cares about Hughes and South Lakes. only.

You really can fool some of the peopl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ""I've been told by several parents who's children
> are in IB about their perception of how it is
> marketed to them -- which is that it virtually
> guarantees them a spot at a national university.
> The point is not whether it's true or not -- the
> point is how is IB being sold to parents and kids
> from the outset.""
>
> Hilarious that parents believe that crap that FCPS
> peddles. Even worse the administration knows they
> can lie and the dumb parents will buy it.
> Pathetic. Those same idiot parents like to
> pretend that they are so smart. They're those
> elite intellectuals, the ones everyone else is
> laughing at.

Let's see...Cinderella posts a false fact, then says it doesn't really matter whether it's true or not, it's only the perception, and you comment as if it were true. This thread has gone to the dogs.

""On the other hand, redistrictings involving Madison (#6) and Marshall (#7), Woodson (#4) and Lake Braddock (#8), or Falls Church (#19) and Annandale (#22) should be more acceptable to local communities, were the need for such a redistricting to arise.""

You think people at Madison, Marshall, and Woodson would be ok with being sent to Falls Church or Annandale? I must disagree.

Stats guy posted this:
"This is what my analysis shows. Except for her inclusion of Madison in the top five, Neen is not far off the mark.

1. Jefferson
2. Langley
3. McLean
4. Woodson
5. Oakton
6. Madison
7. Marshall
8. Lake Braddock
9. Robinson
10. Chantilly
11. Westfield
12. West Springfield
13. Centreville
14. Herndon
15. South County
16. Fairfax
17. South Lakes
18. Stuart
19. Falls Church
20. West Potomac
21. Lee
22. Annandale
22. Edison (tie)
24. Hayfield
24. Mount Vernon (tie)

Of the bottom 9 schools, all but one are IB. Looks like their plan didn't work so well for stopping white flight. Looks like those middle class kids hauled ass out the doors of those IB schools. We should have known. Nothing the administration does is good for kids or what the parents want.

Stuy should be proud, South Lakes is the best of the bottom schools. LOL

Say what??? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ""On the other hand, redistrictings involving
> Madison (#6) and Marshall (#7), Woodson (#4) and
> Lake Braddock (#8), or Falls Church (#19) and
> Annandale (#22) should be more acceptable to local
> communities, were the need for such a
> redistricting to arise.""
>
> You think people at Madison, Marshall, and Woodson
> would be ok with being sent to Falls Church or
> Annandale? I must disagree.

I was referring to possible redistricting between (1) Madison and Marshall, (2) Woodson and Lake Braddock and/or (3) Falls Church and Annandale, not a redistricting that would send Madison, Marshall or Woodson students to Falls Church or Annandale. I believe that any rezoning is disruptive and generates opposition, but that redistrictings involving those pairs of schools would generate far less controversy than the recent redistricting involving South Lakes.

Woodson and Falls Church do share a boundary, but I agree with you that a plan to send Woodson students to Falls Church would be very controversial. It is far more likely that Annandale students will be redistricted to Falls Church in the next year or two.

You initially started off with an assumption about my neighborhood and its socioeconomics, and that on the basis of this, I , together with my neighbors, would never consider public schools so that our perspectives were invalid. I challenged you on this and you backed down.

You then assume I care nothing about the public schools because my daughter is leaving, and presume I should not care any further. You do not know whether I have other kids who are younger who are still in public school, plan on having additional kids, or care about education in general to keep an active interest in this debate. I would note that any and all of the above, together with being a member of this community, entitle me to be engaged in education.

You make some interesting points, but I wonder why everything comes down to test scores when so many people in Reston said that there is more to the story than test scores during the past several months. Some of the test scores are comparable -- some are not. It really depends on which ones you are talking about, so you'd need to be more specific. My perspectives were formed on the basis of real world experience in the schools, not test scores that I look up online. The best schools go far beyond test scores. Test scores tell you about whether you are meeting the bare minimum -- nothing else. What some of the failing test scores in Reston are telling you is that some schools are not even doing that. Therefore, even if every single test score at Hughes were comparable to the best middle schools in the Commonwealth of Virginia, it still wouldn't tell us much unless we knew how teachers were going above and beyond this in helping kids along, right? Or do you now take the opposite viewpoint and say that test scores are the true measure of a school in its entirety and should be the sole measure of whether middle class students are thriving in a particular school?

In any event, I do work for a living, and it is almost midnight, so I will be heading out now. I will pick up the debate tomorrow.



Glass Slipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You did make assumptions about me, particularly
> that I was disparaging 'rich' people. So don't
> get too high and mighty. Again, I ask you, what
> is your point? You are leaving the public school
> system.
>
> I do have a question? If scores for children at
> Hughes with incomes and backgrounds like yours
> were comparable to those of like children at
> surrounding middle schools, what would be the harm
> in bringing up the bottom? What if the bottom was
> all that separated Hughes from surrounding
> schools? What if the students like your daughter
> were already doing as well? What would your
> argument with Hughes be then? Could we not then
> say that you are unfairly maligning Hughes, just
> because it has more low income students than
> surrounding schools? Could we not surmise that
> you will never be satisfied with public schools
> and that your only recourse is private to get what
> you want for your daughter?

GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't made any assumptions about you, except
> that I don't think that you supported
> redistricting, and you didn't answer that
> question, did you?

You all but called her a liar!

What difference does it make if she liked RD or not? What do you think that proves?

Even I know Reston people who have pulled their kids out of Reston elementary schools, Sunrise Valley and Hunters Woods, and I don't even live there. It shouldn't be too difficult for people such as yourself to meet them. I bet you have too.

I'd love to know the degree of difference between all the schools. For example, SL scored higher than Herndon on the SAT and only a few points (around 11) lower than Westfield. Does that mean that SL is better than Herndon (ranked 14) for college bound kids and only a hair less as good as Westfield (ranked 11)? What if all the schools are ranked in the top 3% of high schools in the US (Challenge Index)? What if SL is ranked in the top 2%? Aren't we splitting hairs here, folks?

Read the first paragraph. Did you not make an assumption there?

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As long as there are parents like you out there
> who excuse the schools from educating all the kids
> in its school instead of thinking the only kids
> who deserve attention are those who are failing,
> expect numerous Reston parents to continue fleeing
> to private schools, or move to an area where
> public schools are capable of doing more with its
> kids than this.
>
>
>
> GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I meant to say you'd better start looking at
> > private schools, and even then you may not be
> > happy.
> >
> > GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Cinderella,
> > >
> > > You should be careful not to spread hearsay
> as
> > > fact. Kids are not guaranteed a spot in any
> > > university. Spots are obtained on the basis
> of
> > > hard work and many other factors. I am
> curious
> > if
> > > you have been guaranteed by any other public
> > > middle school that your child will receive
> > > individualized treatment that will foster
> > academic
> > > growth. I doubt that any exist in FFX county
> > that
> > > will meet your expectations. You'd better
> > start
> > > looking at public schools. BTW, I don't
> think
> > > it's fair for you to slam Hughes or South
> > Lakes,
> > > schools that you apparently have never had a
> > child
> > > enrolled in, on the basis of your daughter's
> > > needs. You write as if you expect the school
> > to
> > > raise her and educate her so that you don't
> > have
> > > to. It doesn't work that way, unless you
> want
> > to
> > > live in a nanny state.

Stats Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I was referring to possible redistricting between
> (1) Madison and Marshall, (2) Woodson and Lake
> Braddock and/or (3) Falls Church and Annandale,
> not a redistricting that would send Madison,
> Marshall or Woodson students to Falls Church or
> Annandale. I believe that any rezoning is
> disruptive and generates opposition, but that
> redistrictings involving those pairs of schools
> would generate far less controversy than the
> recent redistricting involving South Lakes.
>
> Woodson and Falls Church do share a boundary, but
> I agree with you that a plan to send Woodson
> students to Falls Church would be very
> controversial. It is far more likely that
> Annandale students will be redistricted to Falls
> Church in the next year or two.

I can assure you that Madison families would object mightly to being sent to Marshall. It would be as controversial as the South Lakes redistricting. Some people are still angry about being booted out of Madison, and sent to Marshall, back in the 1980's.

In the next few years, we will have thousands of empty high school seats. How will they deal with that? My best guess is that the school board will hire a outside consultant to tell them how to redistrict the entire county. The SB can then claim that they had nothing to do with who was sent where. They can throw up their hands and claim innocence. Of course this will have to be done long before the next SB election in 2011. Therefore, during this coming school year the SB will find 'the perfect' consultants for the job so that it can be done sometime in 2009.

What Stats Guy Didn't Show Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd love to know the degree of difference between
> all the schools. For example, SL scored higher
> than Herndon on the SAT and only a few points
> (around 11) lower than Westfield. Does that mean
> that SL is better than Herndon (ranked 14) for
> college bound kids and only a hair less as good as
> Westfield (ranked 11)? What if all the schools
> are ranked in the top 3% of high schools in the US
> (Challenge Index)? What if SL is ranked in the
> top 2%? Aren't we splitting hairs here, folks?

How is it hair splitting to look at a list of schools ranked by several measures?

You don't need to be a weatherman (or a hair splitter) to see which way the wind is blowing.

On what basis do you compare Hughes with other middle schools if not test scores? Do you have first-hand experience with those schools too? Are you sure that they provide what you are looking for?

For the record, I did not back off and I did not and do not make assumptions. I never said anything about you personally, but rather wrote about parents with whom I am acquainted who never gave the schools a chance. I can't help it if you chose to take my comments personally, but please, go back and reread my posts if you still don't believe me.

I have to say that I still don't understand your point in posting here. You say you care about the public schools, but if you leave your input will stop there. You are kidding yourself if you think that your bailing and convincing others to do so is going to help.

This thread is about high school redistricting. Instead of seeing the positives in new leadership that seems to be trickling down from SL to Hughes and hopefully further, you want to complain with the other dead-enders posting here. One would have thought that you would welcome any changes to the pyramid that would bring in a fresh set of parents with new perspectives and expectations that might help the pyramid. Instead, you seem bound and determined to air your personal grievances publicly and to continue the denigration. Some might ascertain that you are trying to poison the well as you leave, but I wouldn't presume. Some might say that people in your neighborhood are bitter, but I wouldn't presume.

It is useless to debate you further, but rest assured, Neen will have your back and she will salivate over every negative that you utter, and twist it to fit her anti-SL agenda.



Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You initially started off with an assumption about
> my neighborhood and its socioeconomics, and that
> on the basis of this, I , together with my
> neighbors, would never consider public schools so
> that our perspectives were invalid. I challenged
> you on this and you backed down.
>
> You then assume I care nothing about the public
> schools because my daughter is leaving, and
> presume I should not care any further. You do not
> know whether I have other kids who are younger who
> are still in public school, plan on having
> additional kids, or care about education in
> general to keep an active interest in this debate.
> I would note that any and all of the above,
> together with being a member of this community,
> entitle me to be engaged in education.
>
> You make some interesting points, but I wonder why
> everything comes down to test scores when so many
> people in Reston said that there is more to the
> story than test scores during the past several
> months. Some of the test scores are comparable --
> some are not. It really depends on which ones you
> are talking about, so you'd need to be more
> specific. My perspectives were formed on the
> basis of real world experience in the schools, not
> test scores that I look up online. The best
> schools go far beyond test scores. Test scores
> tell you about whether you are meeting the bare
> minimum -- nothing else. What some of the failing
> test scores in Reston are telling you is that some
> schools are not even doing that. Therefore, even
> if every single test score at Hughes were
> comparable to the best middle schools in the
> Commonwealth of Virginia, it still wouldn't tell
> us much unless we knew how teachers were going
> above and beyond this in helping kids along,
> right? Or do you now take the opposite viewpoint
> and say that test scores are the true measure of a
> school in its entirety and should be the sole
> measure of whether middle class students are
> thriving in a particular school?
>
> In any event, I do work for a living, and it is
> almost midnight, so I will be heading out now. I
> will pick up the debate tomorrow.
>
>
>
> Glass Slipper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You did make assumptions about me, particularly
> > that I was disparaging 'rich' people. So don't
> > get too high and mighty. Again, I ask you,
> what
> > is your point? You are leaving the public
> school
> > system.
> >
> > I do have a question? If scores for children
> at
> > Hughes with incomes and backgrounds like yours
> > were comparable to those of like children at
> > surrounding middle schools, what would be the
> harm
> > in bringing up the bottom? What if the bottom
> was
> > all that separated Hughes from surrounding
> > schools? What if the students like your
> daughter
> > were already doing as well? What would your
> > argument with Hughes be then? Could we not
> then
> > say that you are unfairly maligning Hughes,
> just
> > because it has more low income students than
> > surrounding schools? Could we not surmise that
> > you will never be satisfied with public schools
> > and that your only recourse is private to get
> what
> > you want for your daughter?

Yo, Neen. The hour is late and it is time to bash SL again. Have fun!!!!!!!!!

Great op-ed piece in Sunday's Post by the President of Wake Forest which has dropped requiring SAT for applicants this year.

Several points in the piece bear repeating: SATs are not an effective predictor of college success. SATs most closely correlate to family income. As I posted earlier, aggregating SATs scores by high school does little more than reflect the socio-economic status of the high school's student body.

It would therefore be reasonable to expect that Stuart and SL student body's SATs should be at the lower end of the SAT scale in FCPS. But they weren't. Adjust the SAT outcomes by FRM percentage and maybe SL's student body looks better than Herndon and other schools with lower FRM percentages but SAT scores within 50 points of either SL or Stuart.

Another point that President Hatch of Wake Forest also makes is that the best predictor of college success is high school GPA and class rank.

SL doesn't report class rank. I don't know if that's true for all of FCPS.

But President Hatch's point re-enforces the FairGrade concern about FCPS non-standard grading system hurting FCPS college applicants applying to Wake Forest and other non-Virginia universities.

With Virginia colleges not able to accommodate all FCPS kids who are able handle college material, ever more FCPS kids will be attending non-Virginia universities.

FCPS has got to stop handicapping its kids in competing for seats at these out of state colleges by changing its grading system to the one used in the northeast and midwest states. And the one used in Montgomery and Arlington counties.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great op-ed piece in Sunday's Post by the
> President of Wake Forest which has dropped
> requiring SAT for applicants this year.
>
> Several points in the piece bear repeating: SATs
> are not an effective predictor of college success.
> SATs most closely correlate to family income. As
> I posted earlier, aggregating SATs scores by high
> school does little more than reflect the
> socio-economic status of the high school's student
> body.
>
> It would therefore be reasonable to expect that
> Stuart and SL student body's SATs should be at the
> lower end of the SAT scale in FCPS. But they
> weren't. Adjust the SAT outcomes by FRM
> percentage and maybe SL's student body looks
> better than Herndon and other schools with lower
> FRM percentages but SAT scores within 50 points of
> either SL or Stuart.

I was wondering about this as well. I think my next analysis will be a "Punching Above Their Weight" analysis which compares how individual schools perform (see my prior analysis) relative to their ESOL/FRL figures.

Also - I was a bit confused by some of your prior posts. You seemed to be quite disenchanted with South Lakes, but at the same time arguing for the redistricting of a number of Reston schools that currently attend Herndon to South Lakes. Why would you want more students to attend the school if you are not satisfied with your own children's experience there?

The only high school that still ranked students was Stuart. But a couple of years ago the school was trying to abolish ranking. I would imagine they have been successful by now, but I don't know.

Thomas More, you and I both know why schools don't want to use the SAT. It hurts their efforts at affirmative action for Blacks. Like TJ admissions, they would prefer measures that are more fuzzy, more subjective so that they choose the 'right' number of Black students.

You are correct that the grading policies of FCPS hurts our students. The administration and school board are well aware of this but do not seem to care. This fall staff will prepare a report for Dale on the grading policies. He will then decide what to do about the grading scale. Since staff works for him I would imagine that they will tell him whatever he has told them to tell him.

Is this any way to run a railroad?

Paging Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yo, Neen. The hour is late and it is time to bash
> SL again. Have fun!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I've moved on. We are not discussing South Lakes.

Try to keep up.

Stats Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Also - I was a bit confused by some of your prior posts. You seemed to be quite disenchanted with South Lakes, but at the same time arguing for the redistricting of a number of Reston schools that currently attend Herndon to South Lakes. Why would you want more students to attend the school if you are not satisfied with your own children's experience there?< <

My personal opinion is that FCPS as a whole is systemically mediocre, especially given the student body: no other county in the country has a parent group with as high a percentage of college and graduate degrees.

Based on conversations with friends whose children have gone to HHS and other FCPS high schools, HHS is not much different from SLHS except for a lower % of FRM and higher % of ESOL at HHS.

Thus, advocating Aldrin & part of Armstrong going to SLHS would not significantly impact the quality of education received by Aldrin & Armstrong kids (especially if AP is restored at SL), while uniting a community, the city of Reston, that had wrongly been partitioned in the '80s, into a single high school. Thus, strengthening the community and the high school by a unity of identity much as Vienna and Madison strengthen and reinforce each other.

Stuy had other priorities though only he knows what they are.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Thomas More, you and I both know why schools don't want to use the SAT. It hurts their efforts at affirmative action for Blacks. Like TJ admissions, they would prefer measures that are more fuzzy, more subjective so that they choose the 'right' number of Black students.< <

Hey, how about reading the Op-ed piece. What's fuzzy about GPA and class rank?

Hatch is writing about socio-economic diversity which, as Jim Webb frequently points out, would benefit many more poor whites than poor blacks because there are a lot more poor whites than poor blacks.

You're smarter than this cheap shot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 02:10AM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only high school that still ranked students
> was Stuart. But a couple of years ago the school
> was trying to abolish ranking. I would imagine
> they have been successful by now, but I don't
> know.

Stuart doesn't rank their students. I thought the FCPS policy was not to rank? I think for transcripts, when students apply to college, if the college asks where a student is in regards to rank, the guidance office at all FCPS high schools can say a percentage..like top 5% or 10% etc...

Say what??? Wrote:
...
> 17. South Lakes
> 18. Stuart
> 19. Falls Church
> 20. West Potomac
> 21. Lee
> 22. Annandale
> 22. Edison (tie)
> 24. Hayfield
> 24. Mount Vernon (tie)
>
> Of the bottom 9 schools, all but one are IB. ...

Fact check time: Falls Church, West Potomac, and Hayfield are all AP schools.

Stats Man Wrote:
> A poster recently took issue with Neen's
> repeatedly identifying TJ, Langley, McLean,
> Madison and Oakton as the top schools in the
> county. I have done an analysis based on
> averaging the following student performance
> statistics: (1) performance on SATs, (2)
> performance on SOLs, (3) percentage of students
> receiving Advanced Diplomas and (4) ranking on the
> Newsweek "Challenge Index."
>
> This is what my analysis shows. Except for her
> inclusion of Madison in the top five, Neen is not
> far off the mark.
>
> 1. Jefferson
> 2. Langley
> 3. McLean
> 4. Woodson
> 5. Oakton
> 6. Madison
> 7. Marshall
> 8. Lake Braddock
> 9. Robinson
> 10. Chantilly
> 11. Westfield
> 12. West Springfield
> 13. Centreville
> 14. Herndon
> 15. South County
> 16. Fairfax
> 17. South Lakes
> 18. Stuart
> 19. Falls Church
> 20. West Potomac
> 21. Lee
> 22. Annandale
> 22. Edison (tie)
> 24. Hayfield
> 24. Mount Vernon (tie)
>
> I believe that, without crunching all the numbers,
> parents intuitively have a feel for these
> performance measures. As a result, a
> redistricting that sends students from Oakton
> (#5), Madison (#6) or Westfield (#11) to South
> Lakes (#17), not surprisingly, leads to
> considerable community opposition.
>
> Moving down the rankings, one can also see some of
> the reasons why, even though there is extra
> capacity at schools such as Hayfield and Mount
> Vernon (tied for #24), parents at South County
> (#15) have gone to great lengths to convince the
> School Board to build new schools in their
> neighborhood, thus successfully avoiding a
> redistricting to lower-performing schools.
>
> On the other hand, redistrictings involving
> Madison (#6) and Marshall (#7), Woodson (#4) and
> Lake Braddock (#8), or Falls Church (#19) and
> Annandale (#22) should be more acceptable to local
> communities, were the need for such a
> redistricting to arise.


-------------
I enjoy discussing data and statistics and appreciate your analysis.

However, unless you are only focusing on high achievers, the ones who earn Advanced Diplomas and take the SATs, you may also want some measure of dropout rates. Do you want to calculate the number of Advanced Diplomas in comparison to the number of freshmen four years earlier?

FCPS only counts as dropouts the decrease in a particular grade from September to the following June, which results in a low number. The below numbers show the FOUR year decrease in a particular grade cohort (e.g., “Class of 2006”) from September of their freshman year to June of their senior year for the four years previous to this one. All data are from the “Membership” numbers posted on the FCPS website.

There are many reasons behind these numbers and leaving before graduation is not necessarily “bad.” However, it is interesting that your six top-rated schools, all average less than a 6.25% dropout rate.

Marshall seems to have a bit of a dropout problem, in relation to other schools that rate highly on your above list. Stuart also seems to have a dropout rate higher than would be indicated from your list. In contrast, Fairfax has a lower dropout rate than might be predicted from your list. These exceptions do not invalidate your analysis, but rather indicate “dropout rate” is an independent variable that should also be included for a fuller comparison of schools.

NOTE: I do not yet have this year's numbers, but in the Class of 2007 the "loss rate" at Oakton and South Lakes were almost the same, Chantilly was very low, and Herndon very high. I am not trying to explain these numbers, only to let you know what they are. However, it may be interesting to track, for example, if students transferring in from Prince William are seen in future graduation counts.

-------------

Dropout percent from beginning of freshman year to number of seniors still in school in June of graduation year for graduating classes 2004-2007.
Woodson 1.26% [Small redistricting artificially inflates this number.]
Jefferson 1.66%
Langley 4.26%
Oakton 4.62%
Fairfax 4.64%
Chantilly 5.05%
Westfield 6.11%
Madison 6.24%
W. Springfield 6.70%
McLean 7.37%
Centreville 8.23%
Robinson 8.57%
Lake Brad 9.29%
Marshall 9.54%
Edison 10.18%
All FCPS 11.04%
Lee 15.66%
South Lakes 17.36%
Herndon 18.19%
Annandale 21.75%
Falls Church 22.67%
Mt Vernon 26.09%
W. Potomac 27.69%
Stuart 28.18%
Hayfield* 49.47% IMPORTANT NOTE: A large proportion of this school was shifted to South County when it opened. The most recent TWO Year average drop out rate was only 9.59%

IB Participation rates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to the FCPS press release from
> 9/17/2007, 277 FCPS students-which was 78% of
> candidates earned the IB diploma in 2007. Eight
> schools offer IB which means that there were about
> 35 students per school. Here are the results by
> school:
>
> Robinson/ 1226 exams taken/ 80% scored a 4 or
> better (out of 7)
> Marshall HS/ 751 exams taken/81% scored a 4 or
> better
> Lee HS/ 648 exams taken/74.5% scored a 4 or
> better
> South Lakes HS/644 exams taken/80% scored a 4 or
> better
> Edison HS/ 643 exams taken/77% scored a 4 or
> better
> Annandale HS/ 613 exams taken/70% scored a 4 or
> better
> Stuart HS/499 exams taken/77% scored a 4 or
> better
> Mt Vernon/464 exams taken/69% scored a 4 or
> better
>
> Out of a total of 5488 exams taken in 2006-07
> about 77% were a 4 or better.
>
> In the higher level exams, there were 2394 taken
> with 83% scoring at a 4 or above. Broken down by
> subject:
>
> Computer Science/ 2 exams taken
> Latin/ 5 exams taken
> Film/13 exams taken
> Theater Arts/14 exams taken
>
> How do these classes get staffed when 2-5 students
> take the exam out of 8 high schools?
>
> Biology/143 exams taken/55% scored at 4 or higher
> Chemistry/54 exams taken/67% scored at 4 or
> higher
> Mathematics/101 exams taken/64% scored at 4 or
> higher
> Physics/120 exams taken/45% scored a 4 or higher
> Business and Management/79 exams taken/67% scored
> a 4 or higher
>
> I am perplexed as to the efficiency here. 8 high
> schools and 54 chemistry exams. Of the 54, nobody
> got a score of 7, and 2 got a score of 6.
>
> Physics-same thing-120 exams in 8 schools. Noone
> achieved a 7 score and 2 achieved a 6 score.
>
> This does not seem to be a successful program the
> way I see it.

AP vs IB participation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Computer Science:
>
> IB schools (8) 2 exams taken
> AP schools (17) 445 (class A) exams taken, 244
> (Class AB) exams taken
>
> Biology:
>
> IB schools (8) 143 exams taken 55% proficient
> AP schools (17) 955 exams taken 70% proficient
>
> Chemistry:
>
> IB schools (8) 54 exams taken
> AP schools (17) 889 exams taken
>
>
> Physics:
>
> IB schools (8) 120 exams taken 45% proficient
> AP schools (17) 211 exams (Physics B) 65%
> proficient, 370 exams (Physics C-Mechanics), 66%
> proficient, 227 exams taken (physics C-Electric
> and Magnetic), 68% proficient
>
> From what I can see, students wishing to pursue
> the sciences are better served in our AP
> schools-let's screw the minorities yet again.
>
> AP proficiency levels are higher than IB schools.
> I can only imagine where the higher quality
> staffing, equipment is, given that the
> particupation rates are 2-3 times higher at AP
> schools.
>
> I don't get the justification for this program.

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone needs to understand why you have not
> heard the voices of so many Reston parents who
> send their kids to private school.
>
> In essence -- they're completely disengaged. They
> have no intent of ever sending their kids to the
> public school here unless significant -- not
> incremental -- improvements are made. They're not
> holding their breath, so why be engaged in this
> process. That assumes a good outcome would be in
> the realm of possibility in a timeframe that would
> benefit their child, and I don't know anyone who
> believes this at this point.
>
> Every single time a parent such as myself
> withdraws their child from the public school for
> private school, it reinforces the thinking of
> parents who would never give the public schools a
> chance to begin with.
>
> I only wish everyone could hear the stories of the
> parents who took their kids out of the public
> schools here. It would shed much more light on
> the situation than is currently the case, and stop
> the monolithic voices coming from SL telling us
> "all is well" or "things are good enough". The
> parents in the elementary schools don't have 8
> years to muddle through before we get to SL.
> Sorry.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > First of all, thanks to FR and WestfieldDad
> about
> > bringing up the data regarding advanced and IB
> > diplomas. I just wanted to see what the data
> was
> > for these students earning advanced/IB diplomas
> in
> > Fairfax County.
> >
> > Thanks, Cinderella for your posts, they have
> been
> > interesting, especially one being from Reston.
> I
> > thought your last post was nicely said with the
> > concept of the right attitude and strong
> > leadership to be fostered in a school pyramid.
> > Not just "oh things will be fine" from being
> > redistricted from a great school to an okay
> school
> > or a low performing school, whatever words
> certain
> > posters post from.
> >
> > There were some discussion earlier from this
> > thread about the middle schools whether Fox
> Mill
> > and Floris were going to go to Hughes. A
> poster
> > said Gibson said that there would not be any
> > changes to the middle schools. Now with this
> > development that the school board has not ruled
> > out the middle school boundaries, this has got
> to
> > be the biggest scam Gibson has pulled for his
> > constituents with some being benefited and
> others
> > being screwed. As repeatedly said from this
> > thread with different posters, Gibson needs to
> go.

Ok, but it is too late to hear your stories...where were you during the public hearings and the town hall meetings? Really, alot of folks could have used your help then.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What Stats Guy Didn't Show Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'd love to know the degree of difference
> between
> > all the schools. For example, SL scored higher
> > than Herndon on the SAT and only a few points
> > (around 11) lower than Westfield. Does that
> mean
> > that SL is better than Herndon (ranked 14) for
> > college bound kids and only a hair less as good
> as
> > Westfield (ranked 11)? What if all the schools
> > are ranked in the top 3% of high schools in the
> US
> > (Challenge Index)? What if SL is ranked in the
> > top 2%? Aren't we splitting hairs here, folks?
>
> How is it hair splitting to look at a list of
> schools ranked by several measures?
>
> You don't need to be a weatherman (or a hair
> splitter) to see which way the wind is blowing.


OMG. Neen paraphrasing Bob Dylan....we are in a new milennium.

> -------------
> I enjoy discussing data and statistics and
> appreciate your analysis.
>
> However, unless you are only focusing on high
> achievers, the ones who earn Advanced Diplomas and
> take the SATs, you may also want some measure of
> dropout rates. Do you want to calculate the number
> of Advanced Diplomas in comparison to the number
> of freshmen four years earlier?
>
> FCPS only counts as dropouts the decrease in a
> particular grade from September to the following
> June, which results in a low number. The below
> numbers show the FOUR year decrease in a
> particular grade cohort (e.g., “Class of 2006”)
> from September of their freshman year to June of
> their senior year for the four years previous to
> this one. All data are from the “Membership”
> numbers posted on the FCPS website.
>
> There are many reasons behind these numbers and
> leaving before graduation is not necessarily
> “bad.” However, it is interesting that your six
> top-rated schools, all average less than a 6.25%
> dropout rate.
>
> Marshall seems to have a bit of a dropout problem,
> in relation to other schools that rate highly on
> your above list. Stuart also seems to have a
> dropout rate higher than would be indicated from
> your list. In contrast, Fairfax has a lower
> dropout rate than might be predicted from your
> list. These exceptions do not invalidate your
> analysis, but rather indicate “dropout rate” is an
> independent variable that should also be included
> for a fuller comparison of schools.
>
> NOTE: I do not yet have this year's numbers, but
> in the Class of 2007 the "loss rate" at Oakton and
> South Lakes were almost the same, Chantilly was
> very low, and Herndon very high. I am not trying
> to explain these numbers, only to let you know
> what they are. However, it may be interesting to
> track, for example, if students transferring in
> from Prince William are seen in future graduation
> counts.
>
> -------------
>
> Dropout percent from beginning of freshman year to
> number of seniors still in school in June of
> graduation year for graduating classes 2004-2007.
>
> Woodson 1.26%
> Jefferson 1.66%
> Langley 4.26%
> Oakton 4.62%
> Fairfax 4.64%
> Chantilly 5.05%
> Westfield 6.11%
> Madison 6.24%
> W. Springfield 6.70%
> McLean 7.37%
> Centreville 8.23%
> Robinson 8.57%
> Lake Brad 9.29%
> Marshall 9.54%
> Edison 10.18%
> All FCPS 11.04%
> Lee 15.66%
> South Lakes 17.36%
> Herndon 18.19%
> Annandale 21.75%
> Falls Church 22.67%
> Mt Vernon 26.09%
> W. Potomac 27.69%
> Stuart 28.18%
> Hayfield* 49.47% IMPORTANT NOTE: A large
> proportion of this school was shifted to South
> County when it opened. The most recent TWO Year
> average drop out rate was only 9.59%

Thank you for the additional data. My blended index was indeed intended to assess the comparable performance of the achievement-oriented student populations at the various schools.

The schools, of course, have different demographics, including varying percentages of ESL students and students receiving subsidized lunches. It may also be instructive to see how these rankings correlate, if at all, to my index and Forum Reader's data on drop-out rates.

Lowest to Highest Combined ESL/FRR Percentages

Blended Academic Rank Drop-Out Rank

1. Jefferson 1 2
2. Langley 2 3
3. Madison 6 8
4. Woodson 4 1
5. Oakton 5 4
6. McLean 3 10
7. Robinson 9 12
8. West Springfield 12 9
9. Chantilly 10 6
10. Westfield 11 7
11. Lake Braddock 8 13
12. South County 15 N/A
13. Centreville 13 11
14. Marshall 7 14
15. Fairfax 16 5
16. Hayfield 24 N/A
17. Herndon 14 18
18. Edison 22 15
19. West Potomac 20 22
20. South Lakes 17 17
21. Mt. Vernon 24 21
22. Lee 21 16
23. Annandale 22 19
24. Falls Church 19 20
25. Stuart 18 23

What stands out from the data?

1. There does appear to be a significant correlation of socio-economic metrics with both performance and drop-out rates, with some significant outliers.

2. Given the socio-economic characteristics of Madison, West Springfield, Hayfield and Edison, these schools appear to be underperforming academically compared to schools with similar profiles.

3. Given their socio-economic profile, schools that appear to "punch above their weight" on achievement-oriented measures include McLean, Marshall and Stuart. Each also has higher drop-out rates than their academic performance might suggest, although those rates do track their higher percentages of ESL/FRR students. It may surpise some that this would be the case at McLean, but the school draws considerably more ESL/FRR students than TJ, Langley or Madison. And, while this is not intended as support for any recent or future redistricting efforts, Herndon, South Lakes and Falls Church also perform better academically than their socio-economic profiles alone might suggest.

4. Drop-outs should be a cause for concern at any school, regardless of their socio-economic profiles. Some schools have lower drop-out rates than one might expect based on their socio-economic profile. The low drop-out rate at Fairfax - noted in Forum Reader's post - stands out in particular. Chantilly and Westfield also merit mention in this regard. It would be interesting to know whether these schools have special programs in place that encourage student retention.

ESL rates at not all equal. Some foreign-born parents place a high value on education and their children do well in school despite speaking another language at home. I think that might partially explain Westfield and Chantilly's good performances.

Median Home Values per school

430k Chantilly
475k Burke
474k Annadale
580k Reston
660k Oakton
740k Falls Church
863k Mclean

The 80K difference between Oakton and South Lakes sums up the difference in the schools. The reality is that people pay for good schools, and paying 100K or so extra to get into Oakton rather than SL is worth it for many parents. The problem arises when after paid a the extra 100K to get into Oakton, the School Board says that you have to go to South Lakes. That a huge loss for all these areas. It is easy for Reston who are not losing any money. For these RD areas a large percent of their equity in their houses is wiped off.


False Name Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Median Home Values per school
>
> 430k Chantilly
> 475k Burke
> 474k Annadale
> 580k Reston
> 660k Oakton
> 740k Falls Church
> 863k Mclean

I was totally against RD and I live in what used to be the Oakton district, now South Lakes. I'm sure our home values will drop a lot due to RD. However, to be completely honest, I don't think that the difference in values between Reston and other areas is just due to the schools. There are some big ass houses in the Oakton district, not so many in Reston. Oh wait, yes there are, but they go to Herndon and Langley. Anyway, it still sucks to be us, with our so-so houses that just lost at least $50K, if not $100K.


exactly the point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The 80K difference between Oakton and South Lakes
> sums up the difference in the schools. The reality
> is that people pay for good schools, and paying
> 100K or so extra to get into Oakton rather than SL
> is worth it for many parents. The problem arises
> when after paid a the extra 100K to get into
> Oakton, the School Board says that you have to go
> to South Lakes. That a huge loss for all these
> areas. It is easy for Reston who are not losing
> any money. For these RD areas a large percent of
> their equity in their houses is wiped off.
>
>
> False Name Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Median Home Values per school
> >
> > 430k Chantilly
> > 475k Burke
> > 474k Annadale
> > 580k Reston
> > 660k Oakton
> > 740k Falls Church
> > 863k Mclean

exactly the point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The 80K difference between Oakton and South Lakes
> sums up the difference in the schools. The reality
> is that people pay for good schools, and paying
> 100K or so extra to get into Oakton rather than SL
> is worth it for many parents. The problem arises
> when after paid a the extra 100K to get into
> Oakton, the School Board says that you have to go
> to South Lakes. That a huge loss for all these
> areas. It is easy for Reston who are not losing
> any money. For these RD areas a large percent of
> their equity in their houses is wiped off.
>
>
> False Name Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Median Home Values per school
> >
> > 430k Chantilly
> > 475k Burke
> > 474k Annadale
> > 580k Reston
> > 660k Oakton
> > 740k Falls Church
> > 863k Mclean

False Name - Where did you get your data? Seems a little spotty.

How do you read the chart? Why do you say Madison is underperforming if it is Number 3?


Stats Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you for the additional data. My blended
> index was indeed intended to assess the comparable
> performance of the achievement-oriented student
> populations at the various schools.
>
> The schools, of course, have different
> demographics, including varying percentages of ESL
> students and students receiving subsidized
> lunches. It may also be instructive to see how
> these rankings correlate, if at all, to my index
> and Forum Reader's data on drop-out rates.
>
> Lowest to Highest Combined ESL/FRR Percentages
>
> Blended Academic
> Rank Drop-Out Rank
>
> 1. Jefferson 1
> 2
> 2. Langley 2
> 3
> 3. Madison 6
> 8
> 4. Woodson 4
> 1
> 5. Oakton 5
> 4
> 6. McLean 3
> 10
> 7. Robinson 9
> 12
> 8. West Springfield 12
> 9
> 9. Chantilly 10
> 6
> 10. Westfield 11
> 7
> 11. Lake Braddock 8
> 13
> 12. South County 15
> N/A
> 13. Centreville 13
> 11
> 14. Marshall 7
> 14
> 15. Fairfax 16
> 5
> 16. Hayfield 24
> N/A
> 17. Herndon 14
> 18
> 18. Edison 22
> 15
> 19. West Potomac 20
> 22
> 20. South Lakes 17
> 17
> 21. Mt. Vernon 24
> 21
> 22. Lee 21
> 16
> 23. Annandale 22
> 19
> 24. Falls Church 19
> 20
> 25. Stuart 18
> 23
>