edna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do honors class in non IB curriculums also get a
> .5 extra points on GPA?


No extra points for any Honors class.

GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have nothing against GT, but I don't think the
> program today is operated as was intended, because
> so many kids are labeled as 'gifted' who aren't
> really. They are very bright , but certainly not
> gifted. If we are willing to separate out the top
> tier of students into GT centers, we should also
> support tracking so that those kids that are above
> average but not gifted are not lumped in with
> everyone else. Tracking should also be fluid, so
> that a child that proves him or herself, or who
> matures at a later time can receive some
> differentiated services when the time is
> appropriate. I would always prefer that services
> be provided in every grade school for children of
> all levels (including gifted), but I also think
> they should be with other kids for non-core
> subjects such as art, PE, music, etc. We are
> segregating the GT students far too much for my
> liking.

Why? Hows is it helpful for GT kids to take PE with the other kids? Or Art? What difference could it possibly make?

Perhaps colleges should also be academically diverse. Harvard and MIT really should admit more academically challenged students. Or at least let them take art and music with the smart kids.

>>>I am sure Edison, Lee and Marshall could get AP government if they wanted it.<<<<

Who is 'they'? The Principal? The students? The parents? There are parents at South Lakes who have wanted some AP courses for years. Didn't happen.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps colleges should also be academically
> diverse. Harvard and MIT really should admit more
> academically challenged students. Or at least let
> them take art and music with the smart kids.

MIT and Harvard are not public schools paid for by tax dollars.

Don't compare public schools for all to private schools for the privileged rich.

You have finally spoken the truth. IB claims to be superior only because it is European. I admit ignorance. I thought there was no difference between IB and AP. I though IB focused more on writing and was just "fancy" for IB. I am embarrassed that I did not look into what IB was. We attended Hughes open house and were handed a bunch of charts and diagrams with words like theories of knowledge and man the maker. Shoved the papers in a drawer because I didn't understand the explanation. Figured my kid would do OK so we were neither pro-IB or Pro-AP. At Hughes MS orientation, I asked several administrators the difference between regular/honors/gt. My question was never answered. Honors and GT kids were mixed except for maybe math. So there was really no difference at Hughes between honors and GT. After getting into SL, IB began to rear its ugly head. IB is an elitist, European curriculum. Students who attend IB schools have difficulty transfering to almost any school in the good old U.S.A. The IB courses often have no equivalent at an AP school. The program is ludicrous and disorganized. A lot of busy, tedious work along with very complex material. European Values are taught; not American Values. European and American values are completely different. IB is indocrinating. It definitely promotes socialist values. We finally decided that we want our children to be Americans, not Europeans. We don't feel inferior to Europe. Let European education stay in Europe where it belongs. We wish we had done our homework. We just thought that most schools in Fairfax County would be fine. How many Southlakes posters go on this site and say that their base school has absolutely no positives. People who live in the Southlakes district do not speak negatively about their own school. They are afraid their property values will decline if everyone knows how bad Southlakes is. We are not afraid. Are most comments from people who never attended Southlakes? They should definitely feel uncomfortable sending their child to SL until the administration cleans up its act and starts allowing teachers to teach. Redistricting to increase enrollment at SL would only make it worse.

What is a paragraph?
A paragraph is a collection of related sentences dealing with a single topic. Learning to write good paragraphs will help you as a writer stay on track during your drafting and revision stages.

Good paragraphing also greatly assists your readers in following a piece of writing. You can have fantastic ideas, but if those ideas aren't presented in an organized fashion, you will lose your readers (and fail to achieve your goals in writing).



Mina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have finally spoken the truth. IB claims to
> be superior only because it is European. I admit
> ignorance. I thought there was no difference
> between IB and AP. I though IB focused more on
> writing and was just "fancy" for IB. I am
> embarrassed that I did not look into what IB was.
> We attended Hughes open house and were handed a
> bunch of charts and diagrams with words like
> theories of knowledge and man the maker. Shoved
> the papers in a drawer because I didn't understand
> the explanation. Figured my kid would do OK so we
> were neither pro-IB or Pro-AP. At Hughes MS
> orientation, I asked several administrators the
> difference between regular/honors/gt. My question
> was never answered. Honors and GT kids were mixed
> except for maybe math. So there was really no
> difference at Hughes between honors and GT. After
> getting into SL, IB began to rear its ugly head.
> IB is an elitist, European curriculum. Students
> who attend IB schools have difficulty transfering
> to almost any school in the good old U.S.A. The
> IB courses often have no equivalent at an AP
> school. The program is ludicrous and
> disorganized. A lot of busy, tedious work along
> with very complex material. European Values are
> taught; not American Values. European and
> American values are completely different. IB is
> indocrinating. It definitely promotes socialist
> values. We finally decided that we want our
> children to be Americans, not Europeans. We don't
> feel inferior to Europe. Let European education
> stay in Europe where it belongs. We wish we had
> done our homework. We just thought that most
> schools in Fairfax County would be fine. How many
> Southlakes posters go on this site and say that
> their base school has absolutely no positives.
> People who live in the Southlakes district do not
> speak negatively about their own school. They are
> afraid their property values will decline if
> everyone knows how bad Southlakes is. We are not
> afraid. Are most comments from people who never
> attended Southlakes? They should definitely feel
> uncomfortable sending their child to SL until the
> administration cleans up its act and starts
> allowing teachers to teach. Redistricting to
> increase enrollment at SL would only make it
> worse.

LMAO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is a paragraph?

Two points, LMAO:

1 Blogs tend not to follow the rules of formal writing (like using initials for phrases - ROFLMAO) and nit picking those who follow the informalities customary found on blogs is a fabulous but ineffective means to distract yourself and everyone else from the point made in the posting.

2 Mina wrote a fairly well crafted paragraph which organized her syllogism better than several law students whose work I've reviewed this summer. Her style shares some qualities with quantum.

So take your condescending ignorant arrogance back to your cave, TROLL.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2008 12:01AM by Thomas More.

LMAO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Perhaps colleges should also be academically
> > diverse. Harvard and MIT really should admit
> more
> > academically challenged students. Or at least
> let
> > them take art and music with the smart kids.
>
> MIT and Harvard are not public schools paid for by
> tax dollars.
>
> Don't compare public schools for all to private
> schools for the privileged rich.

Actually, MIT and Harvard get lots of public money. All colleges do. But if you prefer, you may insert UVA and Cal Berkeley if that makes you feel better. My point is the same, and apparently well over your head. sorry.

Mina,
Excellent post. It's nice to hear from someone at South Lakes who hasn't drunk the KoolAid. Most parents feel as you do. Most are not elitists and they want their children to have the program that most AMERICAN students have. If they aren't sending their children to college in Europe, why would parents want their children trained for college in Europe? They wouldn't.

It's interesting that Hughes is telling parents that Honors classes and GT center classes are the same. I suppose that is to prepare parents for the close of the GT center.

Why do you think that the RD is only going to make things worse? Is it true that SL is hiring more LD teachers? I can't help but wonder why that would be.

The primary goal of AP and IB is to get as many kids to participate in upper level classes as possible. Of course, just taking the course is challenging, but the goal should also be to ensure that the kids do well, as measured by the number who take the exams and do well. Additionally, FCPS is trying to increase the percentage of minority students who participate in these programs.

Given these goals, which program is most effective? Isn't that the ultimate bogey? This European vs American crap is a distraction to the real goals. Which program is most successful in attracting students to these courses?

From what I have seen, data wise, AP wins hands down. Higher participation rates, more tests taken, etc. My personal observation as an IB mom is that by the kid's senior year, if they are not on track for the full diploma, they ditch the classes all together. Maybe I am wrong, but I bet the stats support my theory. We need to measure these programs by their effectiveness and stop arguing about their philosophy.

I doubt Mina is from South Lakes, probably Westfields. The post looks like an anti-IB person trying to put some slam spin on IB and South Lakes, thus the anonymous parent out of right field appearing on the forum to provide an opinion.

Neen Wrote:
> Why? Hows is it helpful for GT kids to take PE
> with the other kids? Or Art? What difference
> could it possibly make?
>
> Perhaps colleges should also be academically
> diverse. Harvard and MIT really should admit more
> academically challenged students. Or at least let
> them take art and music with the smart kids.

I believe the theory is that socialization is improved by mixing with non-GT for classes where GT-ness isn't relevant. The idea is that it reminds the GT kids that they aren't that special. Mind you, it can do the opposite -- remind them that they're smarter than the non-GT kids, with whom they might otherwise not have much contact (past elementary school, anyway, where they'd at least have recess together).

As someone who spent his formative years (long ago, in a school system with no GT programs) being, in all immodesty, far and away the smartest kid in his classes, I can argue both sides of the fence. In eighth grade, I finally realized that I was becoming well and truly an arrogant prick, and set out to change that. I believe I was successful (others might disagree, of course). I'm sure I'm at least *less* so than I was back then! But had I been surrounded by other GT kids, even if I had still been top of the class, I think I would have been less likely to recognize that our differences weren't something to feel smug about, since my peers would likely also have been focused on who's smarter.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

GLMAO, did you have trouble reading the thoughts presented?


Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is a paragraph?
> A paragraph is a collection of related sentences
> dealing with a single topic. Learning to write
> good paragraphs will help you as a writer stay on
> track during your drafting and revision stages.
>
> Good paragraphing also greatly assists your
> readers in following a piece of writing. You can
> have fantastic ideas, but if those ideas aren't
> presented in an organized fashion, you will lose
> your readers (and fail to achieve your goals in
> writing).
>
>
>
> Mina Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You have finally spoken the truth. IB claims
> to
> > be superior only because it is European. I
> admit
> > ignorance. I thought there was no difference
> > between IB and AP. I though IB focused more on
> > writing and was just "fancy" for IB. I am
> > embarrassed that I did not look into what IB
> was.
> > We attended Hughes open house and were handed a
> > bunch of charts and diagrams with words like
> > theories of knowledge and man the maker.
> Shoved
> > the papers in a drawer because I didn't
> understand
> > the explanation. Figured my kid would do OK so
> we
> > were neither pro-IB or Pro-AP. At Hughes MS
> > orientation, I asked several administrators the
> > difference between regular/honors/gt. My
> question
> > was never answered. Honors and GT kids were
> mixed
> > except for maybe math. So there was really no
> > difference at Hughes between honors and GT.
> After
> > getting into SL, IB began to rear its ugly head.
>
> > IB is an elitist, European curriculum.
> Students
> > who attend IB schools have difficulty
> transfering
> > to almost any school in the good old U.S.A.
> The
> > IB courses often have no equivalent at an AP
> > school. The program is ludicrous and
> > disorganized. A lot of busy, tedious work
> along
> > with very complex material. European Values
> are
> > taught; not American Values. European and
> > American values are completely different. IB
> is
> > indocrinating. It definitely promotes
> socialist
> > values. We finally decided that we want our
> > children to be Americans, not Europeans. We
> don't
> > feel inferior to Europe. Let European
> education
> > stay in Europe where it belongs. We wish we
> had
> > done our homework. We just thought that most
> > schools in Fairfax County would be fine. How
> many
> > Southlakes posters go on this site and say that
> > their base school has absolutely no positives.
> > People who live in the Southlakes district do
> not
> > speak negatively about their own school. They
> are
> > afraid their property values will decline if
> > everyone knows how bad Southlakes is. We are
> not
> > afraid. Are most comments from people who
> never
> > attended Southlakes? They should definitely
> feel
> > uncomfortable sending their child to SL until
> the
> > administration cleans up its act and starts
> > allowing teachers to teach. Redistricting to
> > increase enrollment at SL would only make it
> > worse.

alurker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> > Why? Hows is it helpful for GT kids to take PE
> > with the other kids? Or Art? What difference
> > could it possibly make?
> >
> > Perhaps colleges should also be academically
> > diverse. Harvard and MIT really should admit
> more
> > academically challenged students. Or at least
> let
> > them take art and music with the smart kids.
>
> I believe the theory is that socialization is
> improved by mixing with non-GT for classes where
> GT-ness isn't relevant. The idea is that it
> reminds the GT kids that they aren't that special.
> Mind you, it can do the opposite -- remind them
> that they're smarter than the non-GT kids, with
> whom they might otherwise not have much contact
> (past elementary school, anyway, where they'd at
> least have recess together).
>
> As someone who spent his formative years (long
> ago, in a school system with no GT programs)
> being, in all immodesty, far and away the smartest
> kid in his classes, I can argue both sides of the
> fence. In eighth grade, I finally realized that I
> was becoming well and truly an arrogant prick, and
> set out to change that. I believe I was
> successful (others might disagree, of course).
> I'm sure I'm at least *less* so than I was back
> then! But had I been surrounded by other GT kids,
> even if I had still been top of the class, I think
> I would have been less likely to recognize that
> our differences weren't something to feel smug
> about, since my peers would likely also have been
> focused on who's smarter.
>
> But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Thanks for sharing. As a product of Fairfax schools in the pre-TJHSST era, I often wonder whether TJ graduates benefit by attending such a selective school at a relatively young age. I can see the positives for graduates who are intellectually challenged in a way that simply wouldn't be the case at another school, and go on to achieve truly great things. I can also see the negatives for some graduates who go on to attend equally prestigious universities and have a rude awakening at a later point in life, not only when they are exposed to greater diversity in the workplace, but also when they realize that they have to compete with others who don't simply rely on a high GPA and a great resume. As an employer, there is nothing that is a bigger turn-off that a smug, credentialed prospective hire who thinks that his or her academic record speaks for itself. Eight or nine times out of ten I will take the scrappier candidate who still has something left to prove.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> alurker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> > > Why? Hows is it helpful for GT kids to take
> PE
> > > with the other kids? Or Art? What
> difference
> > > could it possibly make?
> > >
> > > Perhaps colleges should also be academically
> > > diverse. Harvard and MIT really should admit
> > more
> > > academically challenged students. Or at
> least
> > let
> > > them take art and music with the smart kids.
> >
> > I believe the theory is that socialization is
> > improved by mixing with non-GT for classes
> where
> > GT-ness isn't relevant. The idea is that it
> > reminds the GT kids that they aren't that
> special.
> > Mind you, it can do the opposite -- remind them
> > that they're smarter than the non-GT kids, with
> > whom they might otherwise not have much contact
> > (past elementary school, anyway, where they'd
> at
> > least have recess together).
> >
> > As someone who spent his formative years (long
> > ago, in a school system with no GT programs)
> > being, in all immodesty, far and away the
> smartest
> > kid in his classes, I can argue both sides of
> the
> > fence. In eighth grade, I finally realized that
> I
> > was becoming well and truly an arrogant prick,
> and
> > set out to change that. I believe I was
> > successful (others might disagree, of course).
> > I'm sure I'm at least *less* so than I was back
> > then! But had I been surrounded by other GT
> kids,
> > even if I had still been top of the class, I
> think
> > I would have been less likely to recognize that
> > our differences weren't something to feel smug
> > about, since my peers would likely also have
> been
> > focused on who's smarter.
> >
> > But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
>
> Thanks for sharing. As a product of Fairfax
> schools in the pre-TJHSST era, I often wonder
> whether TJ graduates benefit by attending such a
> selective school at a relatively young age. I can
> see the positives for graduates who are
> intellectually challenged in a way that simply
> wouldn't be the case at another school, and go on
> to achieve truly great things. I can also see the
> negatives for some graduates who go on to attend
> equally prestigious universities and have a rude
> awakening at a later point in life, not only when
> they are exposed to greater diversity in the
> workplace, but also when they realize that they
> have to compete with others who don't simply rely
> on a high GPA and a great resume. As an employer,
> there is nothing that is a bigger turn-off that a
> smug, credentialed prospective hire who thinks
> that his or her academic record speaks for itself.
> Eight or nine times out of ten I will take the
> scrappier candidate who still has something left
> to prove.


Damn right!! This is America, greatest country because it doesn't worry (too much) about getting soiled by having the "great unwashed" reach peaks and make discoveries despite where they might come from. What a classic underscoring of why so many smugsters here don't get it: protecting their own status out of fear that they and theirs may be discovered as being mediocre.

Neen,

Try a little reading comprehension. Mina did not say that Hughes is telling people that GT and Honors are the same, as you write. You love to stir the pot by playing fast and loose with the truth, don't you? More like a good little liberal than the proud conservative you claim to be, IMHO. Your tactics are lousy and dishonest.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mina,
>> SNIP...
> It's interesting that Hughes is telling parents
> that Honors classes and GT center classes are the
> same. I suppose that is to prepare parents for
> the close of the GT center.
>
>

AND....yours aren't? My children just finished middle school, and at the end gt vs. honors are quite the same....thank you very much. Please don't stir the pot...it is obvious that you take things way too personally. This forum is, after all, a free for all and everyone is entitled to their opinions. Don't need your condescending ways. BTW, I don't even know Neen. BUT I know people like YOU....always judgmental and always right...in your mind at least. Give yourself an A+ for annoying...

GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen,
>
> Try a little reading comprehension. Mina did not
> say that Hughes is telling people that GT and
> Honors are the same, as you write. You love to
> stir the pot by playing fast and loose with the
> truth, don't you? More like a good little liberal
> than the proud conservative you claim to be, IMHO.
> Your tactics are lousy and dishonest.
>
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Mina,
> >> SNIP...
> > It's interesting that Hughes is telling parents
> > that Honors classes and GT center classes are
> the
> > same. I suppose that is to prepare parents for
> > the close of the GT center.
> >
> >

The bottom line Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > This European vs American crap is a distraction to the real goals. Which program is most successful in attracting students to these courses?

> > From what I have seen, data wise, AP wins hands down. Higher participation rates, more tests taken, etc. My personal observation as an IB mom is that by the kid's senior year, if they are not on track for the full diploma, they ditch the classes all together. Maybe I am wrong, but I bet the stats support my theory. We need to measure these programs by their effectiveness and stop arguing about their philosophy.< <

Your theory is supported by anecdotal evidence in the form of the number of seniors at IB schools who have to take freshman world history in their senior year
after dropping out of the IB social studies track. Last year that number at Robinson was 60.

It would be interesting to see how many seniors have had to do this at South Lakes. I also know of rising juniors who chose not to pursue the IB diploma and who are having to take freshman world history in junior year. Those numbers would be also informative.

As for the "crap", those of us familiar with the IB social studies curriculum have found the euro-centric and somewhat socialistic nature of the materials inappropriate for future American citizens who learn little about American history after 1865 in the IB social studies courses when compared to the AP parallel courses.

Others of us believe it is unnecessary to require all kids to have 5 years of a foreign language, as the IB diploma program does.

All of these grounds of objection are valid and are ignored by Gibson and the FCPS staff.

Does South Lakes still intend to offer AP Government? If so, how come no summer assignment posted?

wunderin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Does South Lakes still intend to offer AP Government? If so, how come no summer assignment posted?< <

If not enough kids signed up, the class would be dropped. For example, accounting, which has been offered every year since at least 1996, was dropped this year because not enough kids signed up.

Call the SL guidance office to inquire and if you do, please ask if AP Human Geography is still on the list.

A rumor had it that SL faculty rejected AP Government and selected World Geography instead.

As rumors can be untruths, I trust that someone from South Lakes will correct my entry.




Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wunderin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Does South Lakes still intend to offer AP
> Government? If so, how come no summer assignment
> posted?< <
>
> If not enough kids signed up, the class would be
> dropped. For example, accounting, which has been
> offered every year since at least 1996, was
> dropped this year because not enough kids signed
> up.
>
> Call the SL guidance office to inquire and if you
> do, please ask if AP Human Geography is still on
> the list.

Don't know Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > A rumor had it that SL faculty rejected AP Government and selected World Geography instead.

As rumors can be untruths, I trust that someone from South Lakes will correct my entry.< <

Both AP courses were on the course selection list this spring. What we don't know is if enough kids signed up for either course so that either is actually offered in the fall.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2008 11:12PM by Thomas More.

alurker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
kids.
>
> I believe the theory is that socialization is
> improved by mixing with non-GT for classes where
> GT-ness isn't relevant. The idea is that it
> reminds the GT kids that they aren't that special.
> Mind you, it can do the opposite -- remind them
> that they're smarter than the non-GT kids, with
> whom they might otherwise not have much contact
> (past elementary school, anyway, where they'd at
> least have recess together).
>
> As someone who spent his formative years (long
> ago, in a school system with no GT programs)
> being, in all immodesty, far and away the smartest
> kid in his classes, I can argue both sides of the
> fence. In eighth grade, I finally realized that I
> was becoming well and truly an arrogant prick, and
> set out to change that. I believe I was
> successful (others might disagree, of course).
> I'm sure I'm at least *less* so than I was back
> then! But had I been surrounded by other GT kids,
> even if I had still been top of the class, I think
> I would have been less likely to recognize that
> our differences weren't something to feel smug
> about, since my peers would likely also have been
> focused on who's smarter.
>
> But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

You're not wrong.

Kids always know who is the smartest, who is the prettiest, who is the most athletic, who is the most artistic. In a GT class there is always someone who is smarter than you, in something. There's always someone who has focused on a subject that you know little about. My kids loved it that the other kids had so many interests, and in such depth. But that was back when GT classes were made up of only very smart kids. GT classes are now much more academically and intellectually diverse, so it's probably very different.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't know Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > A rumor had it that SL faculty rejected AP
> Government and selected World Geography instead.
>
> As rumors can be untruths, I trust that someone
> from South Lakes will correct my entry.< <
>
> Both AP courses were on the course selection list
> this spring. What we don't know is if enough kids
> signed up for either course so that either is
> actually offered in the fall.

Too bad they didn't chuck the Human Geography and just offer AP Government. Human Geography is a silly waste of time that is as close to an IB class as is possible with AP. Colleges don't recognize it as comparable to a college course, so why does South Lakes?

Not so obvious - I agree that one ought to look beyond credentialism, and I think the sense of entitlement TJ can breed is a negative - it takes a well grounded kid to take the best of TJ and not take him or herself way too seriously. I think that a caution against run away egos is the guidance that should be given TJ parents - and parents of the top 10% or so at the other top schools. Top performance in virtually any field is a combination of strong ego and humility - an emphasis on the latter is more challenging to instill than the former.

But let's be real - there are some institutions so infused with credentialism they won't hire from anything but the so-called best schools. And in doing so they distort the labor market, paying higher wages for their own self generated limit of supply. As most of us - like it or not - are what economists call rent seekers - and this leads all too many of us to pursue the opportunities that credentialism obtains. I am not sure that much can be done about it.

SL is an IB school without a full slate of AP courses. 1 AP class here or there is not going to do any good.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't know Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > A rumor had it that SL faculty rejected AP
> Government and selected World Geography instead.
>
> As rumors can be untruths, I trust that someone
> from South Lakes will correct my entry.< <
>
> Both AP courses were on the course selection list
> this spring. What we don't know is if enough kids
> signed up for either course so that either is
> actually offered in the fall.

it really does not matter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > SL is an IB school without a full slate of AP courses. 1 AP class here or there is not going to do any good.< <

Agreed.

We are watching to see if the promise of adding AP classes at SL is real or just so much bad faith window dressing to try to silence the Floris and Fox Mill dissenters.

The cynics among us are voting for window dressing and believe that a failure of sufficient kids to sign up for either of these two classes will be used as a rationalization by the pro-IB crowd to claim that there is insufficient interest in AP classes among the SL population to justify a change from IB to AP.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it really does not matter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > SL is an IB school without a full slate of AP
> courses. 1 AP class here or there is not going to
> do any good.< <
>
> Agreed.
>
> We are watching to see if the promise of adding AP
> classes at SL is real or just so much bad faith
> window dressing to try to silence the Floris and
> Fox Mill dissenters.
>
> The cynics among us are voting for window dressing
> and believe that a failure of sufficient kids to
> sign up for either of these two classes will be
> used as a rationalization by the pro-IB crowd to
> claim that there is insufficient interest in AP
> classes among the SL population to justify a
> change from IB to AP.

You -- a stand-alone, jugular-vibrating, holier-than-thou, echo chamber to himself, unproductive bleater -- a cynic?????


Riggggggghhhhhhhtttttttt.

I am convinced that SL can never improve. SBMs like Gibson will never let AP and high standards of acadamics take hold there. SL not having AP is the ticket out of that school via pupil placement.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it really does not matter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > SL is an IB school without a full slate of AP
> courses. 1 AP class here or there is not going to
> do any good.< <
>
> Agreed.
>
> We are watching to see if the promise of adding AP
> classes at SL is real or just so much bad faith
> window dressing to try to silence the Floris and
> Fox Mill dissenters.
>
> The cynics among us are voting for window dressing
> and believe that a failure of sufficient kids to
> sign up for either of these two classes will be
> used as a rationalization by the pro-IB crowd to
> claim that there is insufficient interest in AP
> classes among the SL population to justify a
> change from IB to AP.

Why shouldn't the parents of top tier students at all schools be wary of smugness bred among the very smartest? Why not the top tier at any school, not just the best school? Perhaps you are revealing more than you intended about your own brand of elitism.

sherman's march Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Dear troll, you haven't been posted in so long and that's the best you can generate.

Thanks for playing back to your cave.

The interloper from the North is spot on, brother. I guess that Virginia Gentleman managing partner at M & L has relegated you to interviewing recruits. Isn't that like being put out to pasture?

Seven Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The interloper from the North is spot on, brother. I guess that Virginia Gentleman managing partner at M & L has relegated you to interviewing recruits. Isn't that like being put out to pasture?< <

Another troll appears. You lost or something. Virginia Gentleman relocated to Spotsylvania 20 years ago. It's former site is the Sallie Mae headquarters now. BTW, it's my understanding that organization has no managing partner.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2008 09:32PM by Thomas More.

deleted, duplicate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2008 11:23PM by Neen.

it really does not matter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am convinced that SL can never improve. SBMs
> like Gibson will never let AP and high standards
> of acadamics take hold there. SL not having AP is
> the ticket out of that school via pupil placement.
>
For that reason alone many parents don't want South Lakes to become an AP school. Not that it will anyway. FCPS administration LOVES IB and since democrats on the school board always do whatever staff wants, South Lakes is stuck with IB and will continue to be a poor performing school because high performing kids don't want to go to an IB school.

GT vs. Gen Ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why shouldn't the parents of top tier students at
> all schools be wary of smugness bred among the
> very smartest? Why not the top tier at any
> school, not just the best school? Perhaps you are
> revealing more than you intended about your own
> brand of elitism.

How common is smugness among 16 and 17 year olds? It's not something I've encountered. Most teenagers are not yet confidant enough of themselves to be smug. Most of the high school valedictorians are girls, by a large majority. They work VERY hard, are often perfectionists who are riddled with self doubts. Many are also Asian, who are rarely smug or arrogant or elitist.

The smartest kids at TJ were most often shy, introverted, nerds. There was nothing elitist or smug about them.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seven Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > The interloper from the North is spot on,
> brother. I guess that Virginia Gentleman managing
> partner at M & L has relegated you to interviewing
> recruits. Isn't that like being put out to
> pasture?< <
>
> Another troll appears. You lost or something.
> Virginia Gentleman relocated to Spotsylvania 20
> years ago. It's former site is the Sallie Mae
> headquarters now. BTW, it's my understanding that
> organization has no managing partner.

Looks like the Bitter South Lakes trolls have returned. Sigh..........they're so tedious, and boring.

Neen Wrote:
South Lakes is stuck with IB
> and will continue to be a poor performing school
> because high performing kids don't want to go to
> an IB school.



So there are no high performing kids at Robinson, Stuart, Marshall, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes, Edison, Lee or Annandale? What a rude, idiotic statement you have made. Many neighborhoods are part of IB school districts, and there are many high performing kids in them. Here is just one example: http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=316688&paper=61&cat=105

Notice that he has time to do sports and other activities despite being part of the IB diploma program; I say that because early on some posters feared the IB diploma wouldn't work for their children who are talented athletes...clearly, as this article illustrates, it can work for them.

Just an FYI. MIT has recently changed their credit policy for IB and AP. At some point in this thread an MIT alumni was highly critical of IB math courses based on what MIT gave credit for etc. It boils down now to this, MIT gives EQUAL credit to AP Calc BC and HL Math. The same is true for science classes. In fact, MIT gives credit for HL IB Physics but not for AP Physics B.

Here it is for AP: http://mit.edu/firstyear/2011/subjects/ap.html

and here it is for IB: http://web.mit.edu/firstyear/2011/subjects/intl.html

I don't object to IB but it is too expensive compared with AP. IBMY should not be continued. IB students-families-parenst should have to pay the annual $123 and in this budget there should be a sliding scale for payment of test fees.

IB annual school fees and the cost of the coordinator? The coordinator is an extra position that does not exist at AP schools. Would FCPS save money if it dumped high school instructional services and just used IB? Would it save money if master teachers had a consortium who worked on text selection and curriculum on a stipend basis? Possible.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't object to IB but it is too expensive
> compared with AP. IBMY should not be continued.
> IB students-families-parenst should have to pay
> the annual $123 and in this budget there should be
> a sliding scale for payment of test fees.
>
> IB annual school fees and the cost of the
> coordinator? The coordinator is an extra position
> that does not exist at AP schools. Would FCPS
> save money if it dumped high school instructional
> services and just used IB? Would it save money if
> master teachers had a consortium who worked on
> text selection and curriculum on a stipend basis?
> Possible.


I agree that MYP should be discontinued. I assume you are also suggesting that AP students-families should pay test fees as well? Afterall it isn't fair to have only families in the 8 IB schools pay the test fees. Most families moved into neighborhoods based on a number of factors and knew nothing about IB when they moved in. In fact they may have moved in prior to IB being placed in their neighborhood high school district. IB came to my sons' school when they were in ES. There was no "community" meeting to address IB when it came..I assume there was a meeting for the families in the high school at that time.

If IB were a magnet program, and families agreed to pay for test fees for their children to attend, then and only then, would test fees be appropriate for them and not AP. As it stands now families should not be punished simply based on where their kids end up being districted.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> South Lakes is stuck with IB
> > and will continue to be a poor performing
> school
> > because high performing kids don't want to go
> to
> > an IB school.
>
>
>
> So there are no high performing kids at Robinson,
> Stuart, Marshall, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes, Edison,
> Lee or Annandale? What a rude, idiotic statement
> you have made. Many neighborhoods are part of IB
> school districts, and there are many high
> performing kids in them. Here is just one
> example:
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
> ticle=316688&paper=61&cat=105
>
> Notice that he has time to do sports and other
> activities despite being part of the IB diploma
> program; I say that because early on some posters
> feared the IB diploma wouldn't work for their
> children who are talented athletes...clearly, as
> this article illustrates, it can work for them.

Rumor - I appreciate your posts and the fact that you share information and try to engage in a thoughtful dialogue on issues that concern those of us who still have kids in the school system. If you continue to visit this board, however, you should come to expect that Neen will continue to post rude and idiotic statements - either because she believes them and is misguided, or because she enjoys being obnoxious, which is pathetic.

It's particularly sad that she saves some of her harshest put-downs for 14 year-olds (i.e., witness the recent suggestion that the only RD'd kids who would attend South Lakes would have learning disabilities). She's always attacking liberals, but you'd think she was a labor organizer daring the freshman scabs who agree to attend South Lakes to cross her picket line.

It must be hard being insignificant.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seven Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > The interloper from the North is spot on,
> brother. I guess that Virginia Gentleman managing
> partner at M & L has relegated you to interviewing
> recruits. Isn't that like being put out to
> pasture?< <
>
> Another troll appears. You lost or something.
> Virginia Gentleman relocated to Spotsylvania 20
> years ago. It's former site is the Sallie Mae
> headquarters now. BTW, it's my understanding that
> organization has no managing partner.

eight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It must be hard being insignificant.

You obviously could tell us a lot about that experience. Back to your bridge, troll. Have a nice day.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was no "community" meeting to address IB when it came..I assume there was a meeting for the families in the high school at that time.< <

Not at SL.

A few knew it was coming but there was no discussion among high school parents or the PTSA, no descriptions in the PTSA newsletter. Certainly Gibson didn't "trumpet our good fortune."

Who decides whether a school is going to be IB or AP?

SOSO opened 3 years ago as an AP school.

It seems all the newer high schools are AP. Why is that?

It seems if the SB likes IB so much than why isn't it in any of the newer schools?

What about SOCO? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who decides whether a school is going to be IB or
> AP?
>
> SOSO opened 3 years ago as an AP school.
>
> It seems all the newer high schools are AP. Why
> is that?
>
> It seems if the SB likes IB so much than why isn't
> it in any of the newer schools?


Maybe you can ask the school board and see what they say about the newer schools how they determine whether the new high school be an AP or IB...that is if they ever respond back.

You've stumbled upon the solution to the county's school crowding issues: Any overcrowded school shall be turned into an IB school. Then when everyone who wants AP places out, the school won't be crowded any more. Plus, since all those pupil placed students won't get transportation any more, the school system can save on bus expenses. Brilliant! We can start with South County Secondary.

This is brilliant. We really should suggest it at the next open-mic periods of one of the upcoming SB meetings. I know there is a bit of sarcasm embedded here, but it would work.

IB is the solution Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've stumbled upon the solution to the county's
> school crowding issues: Any overcrowded school
> shall be turned into an IB school. Then when
> everyone who wants AP places out, the school won't
> be crowded any more. Plus, since all those pupil
> placed students won't get transportation any more,
> the school system can save on bus expenses.
> Brilliant! We can start with South County
> Secondary.

Most on this board left are the losers who lost the battle and now are dumped into SL. The areas that escaped have long forgotten the threat that SL posed to them. The unfortunate few of FM, MI and Floris are now left to drown in the lakes.

go to YOUTUBE AND LOOK UP


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YEo4_WfK-8

its a (short) doucumentary made by a student their about life at south lakes if any of your kids are going its they should wath it

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




























































check out the previous post

HEY YOU Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> go to YOUTUBE AND LOOK UP
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YEo4_WfK-8
>
> its a (short) doucumentary made by a student their
> about life at south lakes if any of your kids are
> going its they should wath it

Sheeze, as if most kids wouldn't say the same thing about their high school. Kids always think their school is the best because that's all they know and that's where their friends are. duh.

Why has that kid been in so many different high schools?

Neenologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> > South Lakes is stuck with IB
> > > and will continue to be a poor performing
> > school
> > > because high performing kids don't want to go
> > to
> > > an IB school.
> >
> >
> >
> > So there are no high performing kids at
> Robinson,
> > Stuart, Marshall, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes,
> Edison,
> > Lee or Annandale? What a rude, idiotic
> statement
> > you have made. Many neighborhoods are part of
> IB
> > school districts, and there are many high
> > performing kids in them. Here is just one
> > example:
> >
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
>
> > ticle=316688&paper=61&cat=105
> >
> > Notice that he has time to do sports and other
> > activities despite being part of the IB diploma
> > program; I say that because early on some
> posters
> > feared the IB diploma wouldn't work for their
> > children who are talented athletes...clearly,
> as
> > this article illustrates, it can work for them.
>
> Rumor - I appreciate your posts and the fact that
> you share information and try to engage in a
> thoughtful dialogue on issues that concern those
> of us who still have kids in the school system.
> If you continue to visit this board, however, you
> should come to expect that Neen will continue to
> post rude and idiotic statements - either because
> she believes them and is misguided, or because she
> enjoys being obnoxious, which is pathetic.
>
> It's particularly sad that she saves some of her
> harshest put-downs for 14 year-olds (i.e., witness
> the recent suggestion that the only RD'd kids who
> would attend South Lakes would have learning
> disabilities). She's always attacking liberals,
> but you'd think she was a labor organizer daring
> the freshman scabs who agree to attend South Lakes
> to cross her picket line.

Hey guy! Good to see you back. I've missed your wit and wisdom. Or lack thereof. LOL

(BTW, liberals, not conservatives, love labor, strikes, and picket lines. Your statement is a bit backwards. I knew that you would want to know, so you don't appear even dumber.)

What about SOCO? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who decides whether a school is going to be IB or
> AP?
>
> SOSO opened 3 years ago as an AP school.
>
> It seems all the newer high schools are AP. Why
> is that?

> It seems if the SB likes IB so much than why isn't
> it in any of the newer schools?

Because the parents and students at the schools don't want IB. Parents at these new schools are savvy enough to let their school board members know that they don't want IB. Schools that got stuck with IB didn't have a large enough base of involved parents to object to it. The school board and staff could ignore them, except at Robinson and Woodson. Robinson was big enough to have both IB and AP. Woodson had enough parents to fight it and force staff and school board to allow them to remain an AP school. The high minority schools, with high immigrant populations, were not able to fight it, so they got stuck with IB.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 09:51PM by Neen.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> South Lakes is stuck with IB
> > and will continue to be a poor performing
> school
> > because high performing kids don't want to go
> to
> > an IB school.
>
>
>
> So there are no high performing kids at Robinson,
> Stuart, Marshall, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes, Edison,
> Lee or Annandale? What a rude, idiotic statement
> you have made. Many neighborhoods are part of IB
> school districts, and there are many high
> performing kids in them. Here is just one
> example:
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
> ticle=316688&paper=61&cat=105
>
> Notice that he has time to do sports and other
> activities despite being part of the IB diploma
> program; I say that because early on some posters
> feared the IB diploma wouldn't work for their
> children who are talented athletes...clearly, as
> this article illustrates, it can work for them.

When those schools are as good as Langley, Madison, McLean, and Oakton, get back to us. OK? Thanks.

(One example doesn't quite cut it.)

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hey guy! Good to see you back. I've missed your
> wit and wisdom. Or lack thereof. LOL
>
> (BTW, liberals, not conservatives, love labor,
> strikes, and picket lines. Your statement is a
> bit backwards. I knew that you would want to
> know, so you don't appear even dumber.)

ROTFL - You're the one who missed the point, but BTW I'm happy to receive the insult if it will postpone your hostility toward 14 or 17 year-olds at South Lakes until your normal posting hour of 1:30 or 2:30 AM. LOL!!

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HEY YOU Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > go to YOUTUBE AND LOOK UP
> >
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YEo4_WfK-8
> >
> > its a (short) doucumentary made by a student
> their
> > about life at south lakes if any of your kids
> are
> > going its they should wath it
>
> Sheeze, as if most kids wouldn't say the same
> thing about their high school. Kids always think
> their school is the best because that's all they
> know and that's where their friends are. duh.
>
> Why has that kid been in so many different high
> schools?

HEY NEEN - HERE'S A MESSAGE FOR YOU

YSS (u can go ask some genius from Langely, Madison, McLean or Oakton for help if ya need it).

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> > South Lakes is stuck with IB
> > > and will continue to be a poor performing
> > school
> > > because high performing kids don't want to go
> > to
> > > an IB school.
> >
> >
> >
> > So there are no high performing kids at
> Robinson,
> > Stuart, Marshall, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes,
> Edison,
> > Lee or Annandale? What a rude, idiotic
> statement
> > you have made. Many neighborhoods are part of
> IB
> > school districts, and there are many high
> > performing kids in them. Here is just one
> > example:
> >
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
>
> > ticle=316688&paper=61&cat=105
> >
> > Notice that he has time to do sports and other
> > activities despite being part of the IB diploma
> > program; I say that because early on some
> posters
> > feared the IB diploma wouldn't work for their
> > children who are talented athletes...clearly,
> as
> > this article illustrates, it can work for them.
>
> When those schools are as good as Langley,
> Madison, McLean, and Oakton, get back to us. OK?
> Thanks.
>
> (One example doesn't quite cut it.)

So, you are maintaining that there are no high performing students in any of those schools? That those neighborhoods have no high performing students?

At least I cite an example to show that students can be high performing, gifted athletes, handle the IB diploma, and get into a quality college.

I did one simple google search based on your claim that high performing students won't attend IB schools.

You continue to make broad assertions like, "high performing students don't want to go to an IB school" and have no examples to cite concerning Robinson, Stuart, Lee, Edison, Annandale, Mt. Vernon, Marshall.

Your smugness has gotten in the way of logic here. Clearly there are many high performing students residing in those neighborhoods, and attending their neighborhood high school. While the redistricting was handled very poorly by the school board, and folks are upset that they won't be attending the school they thought they would, that doesn't mean every family, every student, in those IB school neighborhoods aren't "high performing." You made that claim, you are the one who needs to back it up.

Please provide proof that kids in those neighborhoods who are high performing aren't attending the IB schools. Get back to us, Ok?

Neenologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Hey guy! Good to see you back. I've missed
> your
> > wit and wisdom. Or lack thereof. LOL
> >
> > (BTW, liberals, not conservatives, love labor,
> > strikes, and picket lines. Your statement is a
> > bit backwards. I knew that you would want to
> > know, so you don't appear even dumber.)
>
> ROTFL - You're the one who missed the point, but
> BTW I'm happy to receive the insult if it will
> postpone your hostility toward 14 or 17 year-olds
> at South Lakes until your normal posting hour of
> 1:30 or 2:30 AM. LOL!!

Good grief! Those children should be in bed!

Are they your's? Invoke some discipline!

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rumor Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Neen Wrote:
> > > South Lakes is stuck with IB
> > > > and will continue to be a poor performing
> > > school
> > > > because high performing kids don't want to
> go
> > > to
> > > > an IB school.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So there are no high performing kids at
> > Robinson,
> > > Stuart, Marshall, Mt. Vernon, South Lakes,
> > Edison,
> > > Lee or Annandale? What a rude, idiotic
> > statement
> > > you have made. Many neighborhoods are part
> of
> > IB
> > > school districts, and there are many high
> > > performing kids in them. Here is just one
> > > example:
> > >
> >
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
>
> >
> > > ticle=316688&paper=61&cat=105
> > >
> > > Notice that he has time to do sports and
> other
> > > activities despite being part of the IB
> diploma
> > > program; I say that because early on some
> > posters
> > > feared the IB diploma wouldn't work for
> their
> > > children who are talented athletes...clearly,
> > as
> > > this article illustrates, it can work for
> them.
> >
> > When those schools are as good as Langley,
> > Madison, McLean, and Oakton, get back to us.
> OK?
> > Thanks.
> >
> > (One example doesn't quite cut it.)
>
> So, you are maintaining that there are no high
> performing students in any of those schools? That
> those neighborhoods have no high performing
> students?
>
> At least I cite an example to show that students
> can be high performing, gifted athletes, handle
> the IB diploma, and get into a quality college.
>
> I did one simple google search based on your claim
> that high performing students won't attend IB
> schools.
>
> You continue to make broad assertions like, "high
> performing students don't want to go to an IB
> school" and have no examples to cite concerning
> Robinson, Stuart, Lee, Edison, Annandale, Mt.
> Vernon, Marshall.
>
> Your smugness has gotten in the way of logic here.
> Clearly there are many high performing students
> residing in those neighborhoods, and attending
> their neighborhood high school. While the
> redistricting was handled very poorly by the
> school board, and folks are upset that they won't
> be attending the school they thought they would,
> that doesn't mean every family, every student, in
> those IB school neighborhoods aren't "high
> performing." You made that claim, you are the one
> who needs to back it up.
>
> Please provide proof that kids in those
> neighborhoods who are high performing aren't
> attending the IB schools. Get back to us, Ok?

Yes, several of those schools have at least 20 students who excel in the IB program. The other high performing students in those neighborhoods have avoided those schools.

You'll have to pardon those of us who find the number of high performing students in IB schools well short of impressive.

Neen Wrote:
--
>
> Yes, several of those schools have at least 20
> students who excel in the IB program. The other
> high performing students in those neighborhoods
> have avoided those schools.
>
> You'll have to pardon those of us who find the
> number of high performing students in IB schools
> well short of impressive.

Thank you for admitting that high performing students do decide to attend IB schools. Please keep in mind though that the definition of high performing isn't limited to those who obtain the IB diploma, just as I wouldn't limit the definition of high performing AP students to those who took 6 AP classes.

You have not provided evidence that the other high performing students in those neighborhoods avoid the IB schools. For the most part pupil placement is fairly even between the schools for AP and IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP are replaced by high performing students that seek out IB from AP schools.

I am just glad that you realize that your original premise, "high performing students don't want to go to an IB school" was incorrect.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> You have not provided evidence that the other high
> performing students in those neighborhoods avoid
> the IB schools. For the most part pupil placement
> is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP are
> replaced by high performing students that seek out
> IB from AP schools.
>
Since you're such a fan of backing up your statements, let's see your proof of this one. I call BS. People have pupil-placed out of SL into Oakton, Madison, a few in Herndon like there's no tomorrow. If there were so many "high performing students" pupil placing INTO SL, I suspect the IB diploma numbers would be higher.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --
> >
> > Yes, several of those schools have at least 20
> > students who excel in the IB program. The other
> > high performing students in those neighborhoods
> > have avoided those schools.
> >
> > You'll have to pardon those of us who find the
> > number of high performing students in IB
> schools
> > well short of impressive.
>
> Thank you for admitting that high performing
> students do decide to attend IB schools. Please
> keep in mind though that the definition of high
> performing isn't limited to those who obtain the
> IB diploma, just as I wouldn't limit the
> definition of high performing AP students to those
> who took 6 AP classes.
>
> You have not provided evidence that the other high
> performing students in those neighborhoods avoid
> the IB schools. For the most part pupil placement
> is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP are
> replaced by high performing students that seek out
> IB from AP schools.
>
> I am just glad that you realize that your original
> premise, "high performing students don't want to
> go to an IB school" was incorrect.

Rumor - Great job at pointing out the fallacies in Neen's arguments. Her usual tactic is to make a misleading statement and then repeat it ad nauseam.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > You have not provided evidence that the other
> high
> > performing students in those neighborhoods
> avoid
> > the IB schools. For the most part pupil
> placement
> > is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> > IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP
> are
> > replaced by high performing students that seek
> out
> > IB from AP schools.
> >
> Since you're such a fan of backing up your
> statements, let's see your proof of this one. I
> call BS. People have pupil-placed out of SL into
> Oakton, Madison, a few in Herndon like there's no
> tomorrow. If there were so many "high performing
> students" pupil placing INTO SL, I suspect the IB
> diploma numbers would be higher.

I have backed up my statements with links and information. In this case I was asking for Neen to back up her original statement about high performing students. I actually excluded South Lakes at one point when I asked her about the other IB schools and the families and neighborhoods in them. She finally admitted that high performing students are in IB schools.

You can easily see the pupil placement numbers for all of the IB schools. Focusing on SL distorts the numbers since so many new families forced into it are now pupil placing out.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > You have not provided evidence that the other
> high
> > performing students in those neighborhoods
> avoid
> > the IB schools. For the most part pupil
> placement
> > is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> > IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP
> are
> > replaced by high performing students that seek
> out
> > IB from AP schools.
> >
> Since you're such a fan of backing up your
> statements, let's see your proof of this one. I
> call BS. People have pupil-placed out of SL into
> Oakton, Madison, a few in Herndon like there's no
> tomorrow. If there were so many "high performing
> students" pupil placing INTO SL, I suspect the IB
> diploma numbers would be higher.

Are "SBS" your initials or does it stand for "School Board Sucks"? Just wondering since you seem to hate the RD so much.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > You have not provided evidence that the other
> high
> > performing students in those neighborhoods
> avoid
> > the IB schools. For the most part pupil
> placement
> > is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> > IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP
> are
> > replaced by high performing students that seek
> out
> > IB from AP schools.
> >
> Since you're such a fan of backing up your
> statements, let's see your proof of this one. I
> call BS. People have pupil-placed out of SL into
> Oakton, Madison, a few in Herndon like there's no
> tomorrow. If there were so many "high performing
> students" pupil placing INTO SL, I suspect the IB
> diploma numbers would be higher.


That was what I was thinking. The number of IB students vs AP students are different. What I would like to see is the numbers of AP students receiving advanced diplomas and IB students receiving IB diplomas in Fairfax County the last couple of years. There are high performing students in every demographic area with some in high concentrations than others. It is really a matter of choice for these high perfoming students to choose whichever advanced program they seem fit to them, either the IB or the AP. Not a matter of force such as the recent RD.

Let me tell you about my Reston neighborhood.

1 kid - St. James in Falls Church
3 kids - Green Hedges School, Vienna
Countless kids at St. Marks in Vienna -- too many to count.
High school kids in the neighborhood -- Madeira, PVI, St. Albans, Flint Hill, Georgetown Day, Potomac School
5 kids - Edlin School
2 kids - Nysmith School
4 kids - St. Luke's

Maybe you don't believe Neen because she lives in Vienna. But many, many Reston parents talk about the number of kids who go to private school or move out toward the end of elementary school to areas they believe have better schools. And I still know countless parents who supported the redistricting and still plan on yanking their kids out at the end of 6th grade to avoid Hughes.




rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --
> >
> > Yes, several of those schools have at least 20
> > students who excel in the IB program. The other
> > high performing students in those neighborhoods
> > have avoided those schools.
> >
> > You'll have to pardon those of us who find the
> > number of high performing students in IB
> schools
> > well short of impressive.
>
> Thank you for admitting that high performing
> students do decide to attend IB schools. Please
> keep in mind though that the definition of high
> performing isn't limited to those who obtain the
> IB diploma, just as I wouldn't limit the
> definition of high performing AP students to those
> who took 6 AP classes.
>
> You have not provided evidence that the other high
> performing students in those neighborhoods avoid
> the IB schools. For the most part pupil placement
> is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP are
> replaced by high performing students that seek out
> IB from AP schools.
>
> I am just glad that you realize that your original
> premise, "high performing students don't want to
> go to an IB school" was incorrect.

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me tell you about my Reston neighborhood.
>
> 1 kid - St. James in Falls Church
> 3 kids - Green Hedges School, Vienna
> Countless kids at St. Marks in Vienna -- too many
> to count.
> High school kids in the neighborhood -- Madeira,
> PVI, St. Albans, Flint Hill, Georgetown Day,
> Potomac School
> 5 kids - Edlin School
> 2 kids - Nysmith School
> 4 kids - St. Luke's
>
> Maybe you don't believe Neen because she lives in
> Vienna. But many, many Reston parents talk about
> the number of kids who go to private school or
> move out toward the end of elementary school to
> areas they believe have better schools. And I
> still know countless parents who supported the
> redistricting and still plan on yanking their kids
> out at the end of 6th grade to avoid Hughes.
>
>
>
>
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> > --
> > >
> > > Yes, several of those schools have at least
> 20
> > > students who excel in the IB program. The
> other
> > > high performing students in those
> neighborhoods
> > > have avoided those schools.
> > >
> > > You'll have to pardon those of us who find
> the
> > > number of high performing students in IB
> > schools
> > > well short of impressive.
> >
> > Thank you for admitting that high performing
> > students do decide to attend IB schools.
> Please
> > keep in mind though that the definition of high
> > performing isn't limited to those who obtain
> the
> > IB diploma, just as I wouldn't limit the
> > definition of high performing AP students to
> those
> > who took 6 AP classes.
> >
> > You have not provided evidence that the other
> high
> > performing students in those neighborhoods
> avoid
> > the IB schools. For the most part pupil
> placement
> > is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> > IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP
> are
> > replaced by high performing students that seek
> out
> > IB from AP schools.
> >
> > I am just glad that you realize that your
> original
> > premise, "high performing students don't want
> to
> > go to an IB school" was incorrect.

I recognize people are choosing private versus Hughes or South Lakes. I do think the redistricting was flawed from the get go since Langley wasn't included. I questioned Neen's premise not because she lives in Vienna..don't really care where she resides. She made the statement that high performing kids don't want to go to IB schools. It was a silly statement to make. There are 7 other IB schools in the county. Families within those districts have students who are indeed high performing by any definition. It has irked me from the begining of this thread that folks like Neen make statements that are too broad, vague or silly simply to support their smug views about where they purchased their home. Most of the families in my IB districted school purchased their homes prior to 98 or 99 when IB came in. In addition they may not have had children yet, or their kids were small. IB was brought in without a community meeting, but perhaps a high school meeting. All families make sound decisions on their home purchase afterall it is the biggest investment. For Neen and others to promote the idea that they made better purchases and deserve something because of that, at the same time denouncing Langley families for essentially one upping that premise, has bothered me.

For Neen to then state that those families who have remained in their high school district, raising their families and sending them to their neighborhood schools that end up being IB as not "high performing students" was beyond simply silly. Her smugness got the better of her in this case.

I understand that people can't talk in broad-sweeping generalities. Of course there are high performing kids everywhere. Some schools are better than others, however, at fostering an environment where all kids can thrive. It is very difficult in schools with huge disparities to focus on each niche, particularly when high-end kids constitute a smaller percentage of the overall student body. The general feeling I get in Reston schools is -- your kid will be fine because you are an educated, involved parent. Stop worrying. Meanwhile, my child gets little to no attention or focus. My child will always be okay because I will step in and read with her and do the things necessary for her to succeed. The question at a certain pt, however, is not that my child will be okay but what is the school bringing to the equation. In schools with huge disparities in the student body, the unfortunate reality is very little because the perception is allocating resources to my kid is a waste of time.

That is unequivocally the attitude I get in Reston schools. I toured Hughes to see what I would think before I withdrew my daughter. The principal there is good -- but her focus is almost 150% on raising the bottom 25%. The school doesn't offer much for her, and I am tired of being told that everything will be fine because of everything that I do.

Generalities re IB v. AP are unfortunate -- BUT, the School Board is partially responsible for this situtation by putting IB in schools that were regarded are dealing with white flight. Had IB been implemented as it had in Montgomery Cty, we wouldn't be having these discussions.


rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Let me tell you about my Reston neighborhood.
> >
> > 1 kid - St. James in Falls Church
> > 3 kids - Green Hedges School, Vienna
> > Countless kids at St. Marks in Vienna -- too
> many
> > to count.
> > High school kids in the neighborhood --
> Madeira,
> > PVI, St. Albans, Flint Hill, Georgetown Day,
> > Potomac School
> > 5 kids - Edlin School
> > 2 kids - Nysmith School
> > 4 kids - St. Luke's
> >
> > Maybe you don't believe Neen because she lives
> in
> > Vienna. But many, many Reston parents talk
> about
> > the number of kids who go to private school or
> > move out toward the end of elementary school to
> > areas they believe have better schools. And I
> > still know countless parents who supported the
> > redistricting and still plan on yanking their
> kids
> > out at the end of 6th grade to avoid Hughes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > rumor Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Neen Wrote:
> > > --
> > > >
> > > > Yes, several of those schools have at least
> > 20
> > > > students who excel in the IB program. The
> > other
> > > > high performing students in those
> > neighborhoods
> > > > have avoided those schools.
> > > >
> > > > You'll have to pardon those of us who find
> > the
> > > > number of high performing students in IB
> > > schools
> > > > well short of impressive.
> > >
> > > Thank you for admitting that high performing
> > > students do decide to attend IB schools.
> > Please
> > > keep in mind though that the definition of
> high
> > > performing isn't limited to those who obtain
> > the
> > > IB diploma, just as I wouldn't limit the
> > > definition of high performing AP students to
> > those
> > > who took 6 AP classes.
> > >
> > > You have not provided evidence that the other
> > high
> > > performing students in those neighborhoods
> > avoid
> > > the IB schools. For the most part pupil
> > placement
> > > is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> > > IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP
> > are
> > > replaced by high performing students that
> seek
> > out
> > > IB from AP schools.
> > >
> > > I am just glad that you realize that your
> > original
> > > premise, "high performing students don't want
> > to
> > > go to an IB school" was incorrect.
>
> I recognize people are choosing private versus
> Hughes or South Lakes. I do think the
> redistricting was flawed from the get go since
> Langley wasn't included. I questioned Neen's
> premise not because she lives in Vienna..don't
> really care where she resides. She made the
> statement that high performing kids don't want to
> go to IB schools. It was a silly statement to
> make. There are 7 other IB schools in the county.
> Families within those districts have students who
> are indeed high performing by any definition. It
> has irked me from the begining of this thread that
> folks like Neen make statements that are too
> broad, vague or silly simply to support their smug
> views about where they purchased their home. Most
> of the families in my IB districted school
> purchased their homes prior to 98 or 99 when IB
> came in. In addition they may not have had
> children yet, or their kids were small. IB was
> brought in without a community meeting, but
> perhaps a high school meeting. All families make
> sound decisions on their home purchase afterall it
> is the biggest investment. For Neen and others to
> promote the idea that they made better purchases
> and deserve something because of that, at the same
> time denouncing Langley families for essentially
> one upping that premise, has bothered me.
>
> For Neen to then state that those families who
> have remained in their high school district,
> raising their families and sending them to their
> neighborhood schools that end up being IB as not
> "high performing students" was beyond simply
> silly. Her smugness got the better of her in this
> case.

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand that people can't talk in
> broad-sweeping generalities. Of course there are
> high performing kids everywhere. Some schools are
> better than others, however, at fostering an
> environment where all kids can thrive. It is very
> difficult in schools with huge disparities to
> focus on each niche, particularly when high-end
> kids constitute a smaller percentage of the
> overall student body. The general feeling I get
> in Reston schools is -- your kid will be fine
> because you are an educated, involved parent.
> Stop worrying. Meanwhile, my child gets little to
> no attention or focus. My child will always be
> okay because I will step in and read with her and
> do the things necessary for her to succeed. The
> question at a certain pt, however, is not that my
> child will be okay but what is the school bringing
> to the equation. In schools with huge disparities
> in the student body, the unfortunate reality is
> very little because the perception is allocating
> resources to my kid is a waste of time.
>
> That is unequivocally the attitude I get in Reston
> schools. I toured Hughes to see what I would
> think before I withdrew my daughter. The
> principal there is good -- but her focus is almost
> 150% on raising the bottom 25%. The school
> doesn't offer much for her, and I am tired of
> being told that everything will be fine because of
> everything that I do.
>
> Generalities re IB v. AP are unfortunate -- BUT,
> the School Board is partially responsible for this
> situtation by putting IB in schools that were
> regarded are dealing with white flight. Had IB
> been implemented as it had in Montgomery Cty, we
> wouldn't be having these discussions.
>
>
I agree with what you wrote, and appreciate your perspective. Yes, if IB was done as a magnet program, or each IB school had an AP slate of courses, we wouldn't perhaps be dealing with this. However, your points about your own daughter, and schools in certain areas needing to focus on the kids who are struggling, would probably still exist. I agree that it is rather frustrating to be told not to worry because you are involved. We all worry about our kids and want was is best, and it is troublesome if our comments are dismissed in the kind of patronizing way that "all will be well because you are involved."

I have no choice but to post my comments and perspectives annonymously. After redistricting, there is almost a group-think in Reston whereby anyone who thinks the schools should improve dramatically is ostracized. The PTAs -- which represent many of the involved parents in the schools because there is in essence a very small group of parents supporting most of the extracurriculars at the school -- don't want to hear anything other than cheerleading type comments. As a Reston mom in my neighborhood told me, many of the worst things she has heard about Reston schools are from Reston parents -- not people being redistricted. She had children in Reston schools and yanked them. She now gets questions -- almost in the vein of disloyalty -- on why her kids aren't all in the Reston schools. They know exactly why she had to pull them, but no matter, they still have the nerve to ask -- but when she was trying to advocate for her children in the school, no one supported her in trying to get what her child needed. So we are now effectively silenced. We're silenced, so we vote with our feet until someone pays attention and says, hey, maybe we should pay attention to the people we don't want to listen to.

I have friends at Crossfield, Fox Mill, Aldrin and many other schools and no one there is particuarly happy with their schools. It is unfortunate the Reston schools come under a microscope moreso than other schools. The reason I didn't move is pretty simple -- I think the vast majority of FCPS schools are mediocre, and to incur the expense of moving to a supposedly good school where FCPS can change the principal at any time and run the school into the ground makes no sense to me. And I like living in Reston -- it's truly a great community.

For my daughter, I didn't want another 2 years at Hughes where I was being told that I should volunteer hours of my time to improve the community with very little attention or focus on kids like my daughter. Giving and receiving are reciprocal. I feel for the parents at SL who give so much to the school and support so many things, but at the end of the day, I decided as a parent it's my job to make the right decision for my daughter -- not Hughes and not SL. My daughter only has a few years left before she leaves, and she deserves to have a school where someone will focus in on her growth and development.



rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cinderella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I understand that people can't talk in
> > broad-sweeping generalities. Of course there
> are
> > high performing kids everywhere. Some schools
> are
> > better than others, however, at fostering an
> > environment where all kids can thrive. It is
> very
> > difficult in schools with huge disparities to
> > focus on each niche, particularly when high-end
> > kids constitute a smaller percentage of the
> > overall student body. The general feeling I
> get
> > in Reston schools is -- your kid will be fine
> > because you are an educated, involved parent.
> > Stop worrying. Meanwhile, my child gets little
> to
> > no attention or focus. My child will always be
> > okay because I will step in and read with her
> and
> > do the things necessary for her to succeed.
> The
> > question at a certain pt, however, is not that
> my
> > child will be okay but what is the school
> bringing
> > to the equation. In schools with huge
> disparities
> > in the student body, the unfortunate reality is
> > very little because the perception is
> allocating
> > resources to my kid is a waste of time.
> >
> > That is unequivocally the attitude I get in
> Reston
> > schools. I toured Hughes to see what I would
> > think before I withdrew my daughter. The
> > principal there is good -- but her focus is
> almost
> > 150% on raising the bottom 25%. The school
> > doesn't offer much for her, and I am tired of
> > being told that everything will be fine because
> of
> > everything that I do.
> >
> > Generalities re IB v. AP are unfortunate --
> BUT,
> > the School Board is partially responsible for
> this
> > situtation by putting IB in schools that were
> > regarded are dealing with white flight. Had IB
> > been implemented as it had in Montgomery Cty,
> we
> > wouldn't be having these discussions.
> >
> >
> I agree with what you wrote, and appreciate your
> perspective. Yes, if IB was done as a magnet
> program, or each IB school had an AP slate of
> courses, we wouldn't perhaps be dealing with this.
> However, your points about your own daughter, and
> schools in certain areas needing to focus on the
> kids who are struggling, would probably still
> exist. I agree that it is rather frustrating to
> be told not to worry because you are involved. We
> all worry about our kids and want was is best, and
> it is troublesome if our comments are dismissed in
> the kind of patronizing way that "all will be well
> because you are involved."

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no choice but to post my comments and
> perspectives annonymously. After redistricting,
> there is almost a group-think in Reston whereby
> anyone who thinks the schools should improve
> dramatically is ostracized. The PTAs -- which
> represent many of the involved parents in the
> schools because there is in essence a very small
> group of parents supporting most of the
> extracurriculars at the school -- don't want to
> hear anything other than cheerleading type
> comments. As a Reston mom in my neighborhood told
> me, many of the worst things she has heard about
> Reston schools are from Reston parents -- not
> people being redistricted. She had children in
> Reston schools and yanked them. She now gets
> questions -- almost in the vein of disloyalty --
> on why her kids aren't all in the Reston schools.
> They know exactly why she had to pull them, but no
> matter, they still have the nerve to ask -- but
> when she was trying to advocate for her children
> in the school, no one supported her in trying to
> get what her child needed. So we are now
> effectively silenced. We're silenced, so we vote
> with our feet until someone pays attention and
> says, hey, maybe we should pay attention to the
> people we don't want to listen to.
>
> I have friends at Crossfield, Fox Mill, Aldrin and
> many other schools and no one there is particuarly
> happy with their schools. It is unfortunate the
> Reston schools come under a microscope moreso than
> other schools. The reason I didn't move is pretty
> simple -- I think the vast majority of FCPS
> schools are mediocre, and to incur the expense of
> moving to a supposedly good school where FCPS can
> change the principal at any time and run the
> school into the ground makes no sense to me. And
> I like living in Reston -- it's truly a great
> community.
>
> For my daughter, I didn't want another 2 years at
> Hughes where I was being told that I should
> volunteer hours of my time to improve the
> community with very little attention or focus on
> kids like my daughter. Giving and receiving are
> reciprocal. I feel for the parents at SL who give
> so much to the school and support so many things,
> but at the end of the day, I decided as a parent
> it's my job to make the right decision for my
> daughter -- not Hughes and not SL. My daughter
> only has a few years left before she leaves, and
> she deserves to have a school where someone will
> focus in on her growth and development.
>
>
>
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cinderella Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I understand that people can't talk in
> > > broad-sweeping generalities. Of course there
> > are
> > > high performing kids everywhere. Some
> schools
> > are
> > > better than others, however, at fostering an
> > > environment where all kids can thrive. It is
> > very
> > > difficult in schools with huge disparities to
> > > focus on each niche, particularly when
> high-end
> > > kids constitute a smaller percentage of the
> > > overall student body. The general feeling I
> > get
> > > in Reston schools is -- your kid will be fine
> > > because you are an educated, involved parent.
>
> > > Stop worrying. Meanwhile, my child gets
> little
> > to
> > > no attention or focus. My child will always
> be
> > > okay because I will step in and read with her
> > and
> > > do the things necessary for her to succeed.
> > The
> > > question at a certain pt, however, is not
> that
> > my
> > > child will be okay but what is the school
> > bringing
> > > to the equation. In schools with huge
> > disparities
> > > in the student body, the unfortunate reality
> is
> > > very little because the perception is
> > allocating
> > > resources to my kid is a waste of time.
> > >
> > > That is unequivocally the attitude I get in
> > Reston
> > > schools. I toured Hughes to see what I would
> > > think before I withdrew my daughter. The
> > > principal there is good -- but her focus is
> > almost
> > > 150% on raising the bottom 25%. The school
> > > doesn't offer much for her, and I am tired of
> > > being told that everything will be fine
> because
> > of
> > > everything that I do.
> > >
> > > Generalities re IB v. AP are unfortunate --
> > BUT,
> > > the School Board is partially responsible for
> > this
> > > situtation by putting IB in schools that were
> > > regarded are dealing with white flight. Had
> IB
> > > been implemented as it had in Montgomery Cty,
> > we
> > > wouldn't be having these discussions.
> > >
> > >
> > I agree with what you wrote, and appreciate
> your
> > perspective. Yes, if IB was done as a magnet
> > program, or each IB school had an AP slate of
> > courses, we wouldn't perhaps be dealing with
> this.
> > However, your points about your own daughter,
> and
> > schools in certain areas needing to focus on
> the
> > kids who are struggling, would probably still
> > exist. I agree that it is rather frustrating
> to
> > be told not to worry because you are involved.
> We
> > all worry about our kids and want was is best,
> and
> > it is troublesome if our comments are dismissed
> in
> > the kind of patronizing way that "all will be
> well
> > because you are involved."

It's nice to see a fact-grounded discussion between the two of you on these issues. You should both join CAPS and bring some diversity to their views or, better yet, run for Gibson and Kory's seats on the school board in 2011.

My impression is that, had the recent RD process been fairer and more transparent, the lines would not have become so polarized. Cindarella refers to Reston neighbors who view her decision to place a child in a private school as disloyalty. On the other hand, Neen asserts that any redistricted kid who ends up attending South Lakes is, or will be, low-achieving. What a shame - when so many parents want to do the right thing by their kids and only want a School Board that recognizes this.

> > rumor Wrote:
> For Neen to then state that those families who
> have remained in their high school district,
> raising their families and sending them to their
> neighborhood schools that end up being IB as not
> "high performing students" was beyond simply
> silly. Her smugness got the better of her in this
> case.

Neen's smugness did not "get the better of her in this case." There is no "better of her" - she is consistently smug and vicious and just because you called her on this one doesn't mean she won't be back in a week claiming that there are no high-performing kids at any IB schools in the county. Just wait and see.

Neenologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > rumor Wrote:
> > For Neen to then state that those families who
> > have remained in their high school district,
> > raising their families and sending them to
> their
> > neighborhood schools that end up being IB as
> not
> > "high performing students" was beyond simply
> > silly. Her smugness got the better of her in
> this
> > case.
>
> Neen's smugness did not "get the better of her in
> this case." There is no "better of her" - she is
> consistently smug and vicious and just because you
> called her on this one doesn't mean she won't be
> back in a week claiming that there are no
> high-performing kids at any IB schools in the
> county. Just wait and see.

Unfortunately you are probably quite right. I have not even addressed her tendency to discuss things as if she is "in the know" and then turn around and disparge others who might actually be "in the know", with derisive statements like "they must be apologists, liberal, and paid well for doing nothing." If she is so "in the know" why hasn't she done more to change things? Why doesn't she run for the school board?

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> It's nice to see a fact-grounded discussion
> between the two of you on these issues. You
> should both join CAPS and bring some diversity to
> their views or, better yet, run for Gibson and
> Kory's seats on the school board in 2011.
>
> My impression is that, had the recent RD process
> been fairer and more transparent, the lines would
> not have become so polarized. Cindarella refers
> to Reston neighbors who view her decision to place
> a child in a private school as disloyalty. On the
> other hand, Neen asserts that any redistricted kid
> who ends up attending South Lakes is, or will be,
> low-achieving. What a shame - when so many
> parents want to do the right thing by their kids
> and only want a School Board that recognizes this.

Perhaps Cinderella and I will meet, and no longer be anonymous, in 2011:-).

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > If she is so "in the know" why hasn't she done more to change things? Why doesn't she run for the school board?< <

Do you know anyone who has effectively changed a bureaucracy with 165,000 kids, 25,000 employees and a governing body that changes every 4 years and that in the last 10 years that went from appointed to elected?

All of the SL parents who were there when Railly was imposed us as principal knew she was a disaster in less than a semester. Yet she stayed for 7 years despite all of our best efforts to get rid of her. Gibson was non-responsive to us who told him that she was a disaster.

The good teachers transfered, relocated or retired. Railly hired rookies and sychophants. Attendance at PTSA meetings fell off as she ignore us.

This kind of treatment re-enforces parent involvement.

BTW why do you keep repeating that "maybe there was no high school meeting when IB was imposed." My oldest was at SL when the decision was made. There was no meeting!

Just like there was no meeting to choose Railly, the disaster.

Gibson doesn't want parent involvement. He wants sycophants.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> BTW why do you keep repeating that "maybe there
> was no high school meeting when IB was imposed."
> My oldest was at SL when the decision was made.
> There was no meeting!
>
> Just like there was no meeting to choose Railly,
> the disaster.
>

Thomas, perhaps my posts on meetings was misunderstood. I was speaking about when IB was added to my neighborhood's high school. My kids were in ES at the time and I said there was no community meeting, but perhaps there was one for the high school parents at the time. I was not addressing South Lakes as I was aware from your posts and others that there was no meeting. I do wonder about how it was introduced to the other IB schools, including "mine"

I have to say it is disappointing that there was no meeting at the feeder ESs in my area of the county, as I think "vertical articulation" is key for parental communication and support, but it is very distressing to hear from folks like you that there wasn't even a meeting at the high school level.

How did you find out? Was it when your children registered and suddenly the courses were different?

I forgot to ask you Thomas, about there being no meeting for selecting the principal, Railly. I don't know anything about him/her, but it is my understanding that when a new principal comes on board..i.e when the current is retiring or going to another school and there is an opening, that a committee is formed composed of staff members and parents. While this isn't always a sure fire thing, often the person picked ends up not being a good fit, it does at least attempt having input from relevant members of the community. Didn't this occur at the time?

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How did you find out?

A very good math teacher told me to explain why they were leaving SL.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't this occur at the time?

Nope. There was just a squib in the local paper that Bill Harper was out and Railly was in.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Didn't this occur at the time?
>
> Nope. There was just a squib in the local paper
> that Bill Harper was out and Railly was in.


Thomas More Wrote:
> How did you find out?

A very good math teacher told me to explain why they were leaving SL.

Well, what can anyone say to this kind of ahem, communication, from your school? I gather you had kids in school then and now. When does your youngest graduate? And are you continuing to send your youngest to South Lakes? It must be very difficult to deal with day in and day out. You have expressed that Bruce Butler is good, so has communication improved as well?

Where did Railly end up? In another FCPS school? Administrators who are good truly assist the school, but poor ones truly damage the school. Teachers leave, those that stay end up in a building with poor morale, students sense this and behavior can become unruly to say the least.

rumor Wrote:
> ... MIT gives EQUAL
> credit to AP Calc BC and HL Math. ...

Hello, all. I've been busy with "June stuff." Have I missed anything here?

As for rumor's comment, I again point out the difference between the two-year Higher Level (HL) IB courses and Standard or Subsidiary Level (SL) IB courses, which are usually one-year long and which are most common at IB schools. As the MIT web site you so nicely provided states, "Only exams taken at the IB Higher Level (HL) are recognized." MIT recognizes most of the one-year AP courses. However, as most of us already know, MIT has very high standards.

IB HL Mathematics: "No credit is given for scores lower than 6."
"No credit is awarded for ... [AP] scores lower than 4 on the BC exam."

On any other IB HL or AP exam. a top score (IB 7 or an AP 5) is needed to earn credit at MIT. For example:
IB Physics: "For grades lower than 7, no credit is given."
"For a score of 5 on both parts of the [AP] Physics C test, credit will be given"

In Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences, IB scores of 7 may earn credit.
MIT also gives credit for "5's" on all of the following AP exams.
* Art History
* Chinese Language/Culture
* Economics—Macro
* Economics—Micro
* English Language
* English Literature
* European History
* French Language
* French Literature
* German Language
* Government & Politics—US
* Government & Politics—Comparative
* Human Geography
* Italian Language and Literature
* Japanese Language/Culture
* Latin Literature
* Latin Vergil
* Music Theory
* Psychology
* Spanish Language
* Spanish Literature
* US History
* World History

-----------
The next question is: How many FCPS students earn 7's on IB HL exams or 5's on AP exams? In 06-07, only ONE "7" was earned in IB HL Math and NONE in IB HL Physics. The latest data I have for AP scores of "5" is from 04-05, when 543 students earned a "5" in AP Calculus BC and 167 earned 5's in AP Physics C.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> The next question is: How many FCPS students earn
> 7's on IB HL exams or 5's on AP exams? In 06-07,
> only ONE "7" was earned in IB HL Math and NONE in
> IB HL Physics. The latest data I have for AP
> scores of "5" is from 04-05, when 543 students
> earned a "5" in AP Calculus BC and 167 earned 5's
> in AP Physics C.

Thanks for all of your stats. My main point in posting was that things are changing even at MIT in terms of granting IB credit. I don't think they even granted 7's credit in HL IB math previously, at least that is what I recall from earlier postings.

Even though it probably doesn't equate entirely, one must keep in mind that out of the 25 high schools 8 are IB and 17 are AP, thus there will certainly be many, many more AP exams taken, and thus more AP 5s than IB 7s.

It's not just Gibson who wants sycophants. It's the PTAs, too.

The PTAs do not represent parents. They represent anyone but the parents. I have yet to see them step in at the local level and advocate for a parent who is having difficulty with a school. I go to countless PTA meetings and we never talk about the curriculum or teacher turnover or anything that really matters to me for my child. I'm supposed to volunteer and bake cookies and help the teachers, but when it comes to real input, it's clear that it's verboten.

As long as the majority of School Board members come from a PTA/FCCPTA background, nothing will change. Gibson came from the PTA background, which is why he has the arrogance to think he represents parents when he hasn't bothered listening to anyone in years. He is the one responsible for SL pyramid's poor reputation, but again, the SL pyrmaid PTAs made him their poster boy. They made a deal with the devil and they will pay for it since the elementary schools in Reston are declining quite rapidly.


Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rumor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > If she is so "in the know" why hasn't she done
> more to change things? Why doesn't she run for
> the school board?< <
>
> Do you know anyone who has effectively changed a
> bureaucracy with 165,000 kids, 25,000 employees
> and a governing body that changes every 4 years
> and that in the last 10 years that went from
> appointed to elected?
>
> All of the SL parents who were there when Railly
> was imposed us as principal knew she was a
> disaster in less than a semester. Yet she stayed
> for 7 years despite all of our best efforts to get
> rid of her. Gibson was non-responsive to us who
> told him that she was a disaster.
>
> The good teachers transfered, relocated or
> retired. Railly hired rookies and sychophants.
> Attendance at PTSA meetings fell off as she ignore
> us.
>
> This kind of treatment re-enforces parent
> involvement.
>
> BTW why do you keep repeating that "maybe there
> was no high school meeting when IB was imposed."
> My oldest was at SL when the decision was made.
> There was no meeting!
>
> Just like there was no meeting to choose Railly,
> the disaster.
>
> Gibson doesn't want parent involvement. He wants
> sycophants.

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not just Gibson who wants sycophants. It's
> the PTAs, too.
>
> The PTAs do not represent parents. They represent
> anyone but the parents. I have yet to see them
> step in at the local level and advocate for a
> parent who is having difficulty with a school. I
> go to countless PTA meetings and we never talk
> about the curriculum or teacher turnover or
> anything that really matters to me for my child.
> I'm supposed to volunteer and bake cookies and
> help the teachers, but when it comes to real
> input, it's clear that it's verboten.
>
> As long as the majority of School Board members
> come from a PTA/FCCPTA background, nothing will
> change. Gibson came from the PTA background,
> which is why he has the arrogance to think he
> represents parents when he hasn't bothered
> listening to anyone in years. He is the one
> responsible for SL pyramid's poor reputation, but
> again, the SL pyrmaid PTAs made him their poster
> boy. They made a deal with the devil and they
> will pay for it since the elementary schools in
> Reston are declining quite rapidly.
>
>
Are you saying that the PTA just represents the teachers, or that it represents the teachers and a very small group of parents who are happy with the status quo and want to suck up to the teachers and administration? I assume the latter. That environgment can make it very hard to try and have a legitimate debate as to whether current programs and teaching methods are really serving the needs of a broad spectrum of students.

> Are you saying that the PTA just represents the
> teachers, or that it represents the teachers and a
> very small group of parents who are happy with the
> status quo and want to suck up to the teachers and
> administration? I assume the latter. That
> environgment can make it very hard to try and have
> a legitimate debate as to whether current programs
> and teaching methods are really serving the needs
> of a broad spectrum of students.


When is the last time you went to any PTA meeting where there was any debate on any matter of significance whatsoever?

I have volunteered for many things at my daughter's school -- I took a real interest in what was going on. But there was no reciprocal interest in raising thornier issues with the principal or being an advocate for kids and parents at the school or discussing curriculum or anything of the sort.

If the PTAs do represent parents, they represent a very small minority of parents in FCPS who think everything is just swell. It appears the measuring stick for PTA officers is not whether all kids are doing well -- just their own. And as long as they're taken care of, they seem disinclined to rock the boat -- unless, of course, a number of Reston parents withdraw their kids from the school, at which point we're told how judgmental we are for not giving it a chance. Why? Because at a certain point, enough parents withdraw from the schools that PTA officers realize it's impacting their children, too. But by that point, it's too late. Once you're out, you don't come back. I toured Hughes and spoke with the principal -- she is good, but the school has too many problems right now and my daugther can't fix them all. At least I was open minded enough to give it a chance after my elementary school experiences -- I know a number of people at Sunrise Valley who don't even plan on visiting Hughes -- at the end of 6th grade, they're gone.

If you want to beat the school board,the FCPS staff and the do nothing PTA'S, take the money away from all of them.

SAY NO TO ALL SCHOOL BONDS.

DO NOT COMPLETE ANY SCHOOL CENSUS FORMS.

IF THE SB HAS NO MONEY YOU CAN,

STOP GATEHOUSE TWO.

STOP THE SOCO MIDDLE SCHOOL.

CLOSE IB SCHOOLS.

STOP THE CORRUPT GAME THE SB PLAYS.

FORCE DALE AND HIS STAFF TO MANAGE WITH THE MONEY THEY GET WITHOUT ANY SPECIAL DEALS FOR SPECIAL PEOPLE.

Cinderella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > It appears the measuring stick for PTA officers is not whether all kids are doing well -- just their own. And as long as they're taken care of, they seem disinclined to rock the boat . . . < <

You and Not So Obvious are spot on. Turning FCPS and SL around is not easy given these dynamics.

Baffled Wrote:
> ... What I
> would like to see is the numbers of AP students
> receiving advanced diplomas and IB students
> receiving IB diplomas in Fairfax County ...

Is this the sort of thing you are looking for? Data from the state web site:
Diploma Graduates and Completers by School
Regular Term Plus Summer Term, 2006-2007
(Compiled 11/27/2007)

School Name - Standard Diploma - Advanced Studies Diploma
CENTREVILLE - 164 - 320
CHANTILLY - 206 - 445
FAIRFAX - 193 - 308
FALLS CHURCH - 100 - 179
HAYFIELD - 166 - 183
HERNDON - 152 - 286
JEFFERSON - 0 - 428
LAKE BRADDOCK - 198 - 379
LANGLEY - 83 - 383
MADISON - 131 - 330
MCLEAN - 103 - 318
OAKTON - 154 - 378
SOUTH COUNTY - 123 - 243
WEST POTOMAC - 153 - 232
WEST SPRINGFIELD - 160 - 353
WESTFIELD - 205 - 501
WOODSON - 110 - 348
AP schools TOTAL - 2,401 - 5,614


ANNANDALE - 227 - 260
EDISON - 204 - 187
LEE - 185 - 254
MARSHALL - 77 - 215
MOUNT VERNON - 155 - 144
ROBINSON - 212 - 481
SOUTH LAKES - 99 - 208
STUART - 101 - 179
IB schools TOTAL - 1,260 - 1,928

FR -
Your numbers are interesting, especially for the general ed population, but I don't think they are the numbers Baffled was interested in. Your numbers are the numbers for Fairfax County's Standard (22 units of credit) vs Advanced Diploma (24 units of credit). In addition, these have specific requirements for distribution and for SOL verification. http://www.fcps.edu/ss/StudentServices/Guidance/SCO/SCO-08-09.pdf#xml=http://search.fcps.edu/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/webinator/search/xml.txt?query=diploma&pr=public&prox=sentence&rorder=750&rprox=750&rdfreq=500&rwfreq=500&rlead=500&sufs=1&order=r&cq=&id=47ac7a1fb

What Baffled was interested in was the numbers of FCPS students completing the IB Diploma vs FCPS's "AP Diploma" - "Fairfax County Public Schools recognizes students who take a minimum of 5 AP courses with a score of at least a 3 on each AP exam with an AP Diploma." http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/advepd.htm - N.B. it'd be interesting to ask what happens with a kid who takes 4 APs + school-based Multivariate Calc - not an AP class, but beyond... -

- College Board experimented with an AP Diploma for a while with similar critieria, but decided not to go forward with it. "The College Board, sponsor of the Advanced Placement Examinations, developed a recognition named the "Advanced Placement Diploma." This diploma was piloted in a limited number of school districts, including Fairfax, in the United States for the classes of 2000, through 2005. Students who earned qualifying scores in the requisite number of Advanced Placement examinations received this diploma. When the College Board decided not to go forward with the AP Diploma program many of the schools involved with the pilot project worked with College Board to develop an AP Diploma to be offered by their school districts. Fairfax County, with the approval of the College Board, developed criteria similar to that used in the pilot program and began offering the Fairfax County AP Diploma to the class of 2006. This diploma is not a replacement for, nor an alternative to, the standard Commonwealth of Virginia Diploma." http://www.fcps.edu/woodsonhs/guidance/academics/ai_ap.htm -

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> > ... What I
> > would like to see is the numbers of AP students
> > receiving advanced diplomas and IB students
> > receiving IB diplomas in Fairfax County ...
>
> Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?
> Data from the state web site:
> Diploma Graduates and Completers by School
> Regular Term Plus Summer Term, 2006-2007
> (Compiled 11/27/2007)
>
> School Name - Standard Diploma - Advanced Studies
> Diploma
> CENTREVILLE - 164 - 320
> CHANTILLY - 206 - 445
> FAIRFAX - 193 - 308
> FALLS CHURCH - 100 - 179
> HAYFIELD - 166 - 183
> HERNDON - 152 - 286
> JEFFERSON - 0 - 428
> LAKE BRADDOCK - 198 - 379
> LANGLEY - 83 - 383
> MADISON - 131 - 330
> MCLEAN - 103 - 318
> OAKTON - 154 - 378
> SOUTH COUNTY - 123 - 243
> WEST POTOMAC - 153 - 232
> WEST SPRINGFIELD - 160 - 353
> WESTFIELD - 205 - 501
> WOODSON - 110 - 348
> AP schools TOTAL - 2,401 - 5,614
>
>
> ANNANDALE - 227 - 260
> EDISON - 204 - 187
> LEE - 185 - 254
> MARSHALL - 77 - 215
> MOUNT VERNON - 155 - 144
> ROBINSON - 212 - 481
> SOUTH LAKES - 99 - 208
> STUART - 101 - 179
> IB schools TOTAL - 1,260 - 1,928

WestfieldDad Wrote:
> FR -
> Your numbers are interesting, especially for the
> general ed population, but I don't think they are
> the numbers Baffled was interested in. Your
> numbers are the numbers for Fairfax County's
> Standard (22 units of credit) vs Advanced Diploma
> (24 units of credit). ...
>
> What Baffled was interested in was the numbers of
> FCPS students completing the IB Diploma vs FCPS's
> "AP Diploma" - "Fairfax County Public Schools
> recognizes students who take a minimum of 5 AP
> courses with a score of at least a 3 on each AP
> exam with an AP Diploma." ...
------------
It is hard to compare apples to oranges. We are looking for some sort of success rate of top-achieving students, correct?

We could compare the number of juniors who start the IB programme to the number who achieve the full IB Diploma, but there is no comparable number for AP schools.

So - any suggestions other than SAT averages? Maybe percent of pass-advanced on the highest level of SOLs?

[To make our calculations more difficult, as has been discussed ad nauseum on this thread, for whatever reasons FCPS has put IB into lower performing schools (Robinson is an exception.) In any case, TJ should probably be excluded from the computations.]

Broken record is back!

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --
> >
> > Yes, several of those schools have at least 20
> > students who excel in the IB program. The other
> > high performing students in those neighborhoods
> > have avoided those schools.
> >
> > You'll have to pardon those of us who find the
> > number of high performing students in IB
> schools
> > well short of impressive.
>
> Thank you for admitting that high performing
> students do decide to attend IB schools. Please
> keep in mind though that the definition of high
> performing isn't limited to those who obtain the
> IB diploma, just as I wouldn't limit the
> definition of high performing AP students to those
> who took 6 AP classes.
>
> You have not provided evidence that the other high
> performing students in those neighborhoods avoid
> the IB schools. For the most part pupil placement
> is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP are
> replaced by high performing students that seek out
> IB from AP schools.
>
> I am just glad that you realize that your original
> premise, "high performing students don't want to
> go to an IB school" was incorrect.

Ok. How about MOST high performing students, and their parents, do not want to be stuck in an IB school? Evidence of that would be the South Lakes declining population, and the fact that all IB schools (other than Robinson which has both IB and AP) are under enrolled.

Deleted duplicate post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2008 12:57AM by Neen.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rumor Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > You have not provided evidence that the other
> > high
> > > performing students in those neighborhoods
> > avoid
> > > the IB schools. For the most part pupil
> > placement
> > > is fairly even between the schools for AP and
> > > IB..so the number that pupil place out for AP
> > are
> > > replaced by high performing students that
> seek
> > out
> > > IB from AP schools.
> > >
> > Since you're such a fan of backing up your
> > statements, let's see your proof of this one.
> I
> > call BS. People have pupil-placed out of SL
> into
> > Oakton, Madison, a few in Herndon like there's
> no
> > tomorrow. If there were so many "high
> performing
> > students" pupil placing INTO SL, I suspect the
> IB
> > diploma numbers would be higher.
>
> I have backed up my statements with links and
> information. In this case I was asking for Neen
> to back up her original statement about high
> performing students. I actually excluded South
> Lakes at one point when I asked her about the
> other IB schools and the families and
> neighborhoods in them. She finally admitted that
> high performing students are in IB schools.
>
> You can easily see the pupil placement numbers for
> all of the IB schools. Focusing on SL distorts
> the numbers since so many new families forced into
> it are now pupil placing out.

Why do you keep repeating this incorrect information? I never said that there were NO high performing students stuck in IB schools. Of course there some. Every school in the nation has SOME high performing students, even the worst schools in DC, Detroit, and Watts. But I have no clue what you think that proves.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
> I recognize people are choosing private versus
> Hughes or South Lakes. I do think the
> redistricting was flawed from the get go since
> Langley wasn't included. I questioned Neen's
> premise not because she lives in Vienna..don't
> really care where she resides. She made the
> statement that high performing kids don't want to
> go to IB schools. It was a silly statement to
> make. There are 7 other IB schools in the county.
> Families within those districts have students who
> are indeed high performing by any definition. It
> has irked me from the begining of this thread that
> folks like Neen make statements that are too
> broad, vague or silly simply to support their smug
> views about where they purchased their home. Most
> of the families in my IB districted school
> purchased their homes prior to 98 or 99 when IB
> came in. In addition they may not have had
> children yet, or their kids were small. IB was
> brought in without a community meeting, but
> perhaps a high school meeting. All families make
> sound decisions on their home purchase afterall it
> is the biggest investment. For Neen and others to
> promote the idea that they made better purchases
> and deserve something because of that, at the same
> time denouncing Langley families for essentially
> one upping that premise, has bothered me.
>
> For Neen to then state that those families who
> have remained in their high school district,
> raising their families and sending them to their
> neighborhood schools that end up being IB as not
> "high performing students" was beyond simply
> silly. Her smugness got the better of her in this
> case.

What the heck is wrong with you? Cannot you not read? Or is there some other reason you continue to make up things that I have never said?

One more time, and I will type really slowly, with the hope that you can comprehend what I am writing. I have NEVER said that there were no high performing students stuck in neighborhood IB schools.

Please, stop erroneously twisting what I have written.

Thank you.

Neen's smugness did not "get the better of her in
> this case." There is no "better of her" - she is
> consistently smug and vicious and just because you
> called her on this one doesn't mean she won't be
> back in a week claiming that there are no
> high-performing kids at any IB schools in the
> county. Just wait and see.

I STILL NEVER said that.

How many more times do you intend to repeat this silly lie?

Why are we NOT surprised that you are a member of FCPS staff where lying is condoned and common place?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2008 01:06AM by Neen.

rumor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I forgot to ask you Thomas, about there being no
> meeting for selecting the principal, Railly. I
> don't know anything about him/her, but it is my
> understanding that when a new principal comes on
> board..i.e when the current is retiring or going
> to another school and there is an opening, that a
> committee is formed composed of staff members and
> parents. While this isn't always a sure fire
> thing, often the person picked ends up not being a
> good fit, it does at least attempt having input
> from relevant members of the community. Didn't
> this occur at the time?

Yes, staff and administration chooses who will be on that committee. They choose the parents who may participate, the PC parents who are easily controlled by the staff. Then the staff steers the committee so that they get the answer they want, the pre determined choice.

At Madison, it 'only' took us 3 years to get rid of a terrible Principal. I never met a Madison parent who was on the selection committee. Perhaps they were ashamed to admit their participation. But I knew many parents who complained. It took 7 years to get rid of the unpopular Principal at TJ because the school board and administration loved her. She was Jesse Jackson's buddy, and a big fundraiser for democrat candidates.

There were no meetings at schools to decide who got IB and who didn't. According to Nancy Sprague, then the Superintendent in charge of instruction, IB was put into schools where they were worried about white flight.

I know that parents in the Madison area, including the PTA officers, made it clear to Stu Gibson, and the school administration, that they did not want Madison to become an IB school. But there were no meetings about it. There were no concerns about white flight at Madison, perhaps that's the reason that IB was never considered.

JUST SAY NO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to beat the school board,the FCPS
> staff and the do nothing PTA'S, take the money
> away from all of them.
>
> SAY NO TO ALL SCHOOL BONDS.
>
> DO NOT COMPLETE ANY SCHOOL CENSUS FORMS.
>
> IF THE SB HAS NO MONEY YOU CAN,
>
> STOP GATEHOUSE TWO.

>
> STOP THE SOCO MIDDLE SCHOOL.
>
> CLOSE IB SCHOOLS.
>
> STOP THE CORRUPT GAME THE SB PLAYS.
>
> FORCE DALE AND HIS STAFF TO MANAGE WITH THE MONEY
> THEY GET WITHOUT ANY SPECIAL DEALS FOR SPECIAL
> PEOPLE.

Good suggestions but somewhat meaningless since the board of Supervisors continues to charge us rather high property taxes and then gives most of it to Jack Dale. The school system has ZERO incentive to do anything different. They'll get more money every year, regardless of what they accomplish. They always do.

Unless we throw out the board of supervisors, and the school board members nothing will change. They won't be thrown out because people in this county will vote for anyone who appears on their democrat ballot, no matter how high their taxes are or how poor their schools are.