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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 02:55PM

Is SB scared by science and engineeri Wrote:

> so basically, anyone focussed on a science,
> engineering or technology career will probably
> have to pupil place and sort out their own
> transport
>
> makes no sense to me what so ever

Actually, it makes perfect sense if you understand how the folks who run our schools think.

Educrats have no use for math, science, engineering, or technology. They prefer the 'soft sciences' but they most prefer the arts. Everyone can be good at art, not everyone can excel in math or science or engineering. Since the educrats like it when everyone is 'equal', they'd prefer that we not focus on hard things like math and science but focus on more art projects, more 'creative' things, more hug the globe and peace day projects. IB is a much better fit for their agenda, an agenda that has nothing to do with preparing students for the real world or real jobs. How many well paid artists do we know? How many well paid engineers do we know? Where are the Microsoft and Google employers for artists?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 15, 2008 03:07PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since the educrats
> like it when everyone is 'equal', they'd prefer
> that we not focus on hard things like math and
> science but focus on more art projects, more
> 'creative' things, more hug the globe and peace
> day projects. IB is a much better fit for their
> agenda, an agenda that has nothing to do with
> preparing students for the real world or real
> jobs. How many well paid artists do we know? How
> many well paid engineers do we know? Where are
> the Microsoft and Google employers for artists?

Aww,c'mon Neen, you know better than that. You know the real world doesn't demand that we all become engineers or mathematicians. The real world, of which overwhelmingly exists outside of US borders, demands much more than that. History is littered with unprincipled geniuses who had no regard for the valid sensitivities gained from studying the arts. We don't want to create more monsters, do we?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Parent of Snot Nosed Brats ()
Date: February 15, 2008 03:09PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Manoj Bal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> We preety much know why this is happening. South
> > Lakes is stu's favorite child and Floris, Fox
> > Mill, MI are the step children. All the rest
> of
> > the reasons are a hog wash. We also know where
>
> > Kathy stands on this. Remains to be seen where
> > rest of the board members are.
>
> Stu and Kathy will need to come to an agreement
> concerning their schools. The rest of the school
> board will not interfere since the schools are in
> not in their districts. Board members do not make
> decisions about what happens in districts that
> they do not represent. So they will all vote with
> Stu and Kathy, except for Hone and Raney since
> they are at large and therefore also represent
> those areas. Moon is also at large, but he
> doesn't care about constituents. He votes with
> the other democrats, always. The vote will be 10
> to 2 unless Stu and Kathy can't agree on the
> boundaries. Then Kathy will be allowed to vote
> against the new boundaries, knowing that it will
> still pass easily on a 9 to 3 vote.
>
> That's my prediction.


Stu and Kathy will come to a consensus. They are too smart to go in divided as the whole thing will crumble.

I think the original proposal with the possibility of Navy staying will happen

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 03:47PM

Neen Wrote:
> ...T hey will all vote with
> Stu and Kathy, except for Hone and Raney since
> they are at large and therefore also represent
> those areas. Moon is also at large, but he
> doesn't care about constituents. He votes with
> the other democrats, always. ...

Not quite. Way back when he was the one who voted 11-1 against adding the south county school to the CIP because he could see it would delay all the renovations, including South Lakes.

(Neen, are you a Sean Connery fan? Reportedly he said he would "never" again play James Bond, but they offered him lots of money so he did one more Bond movie. It was called "Never Say Never". Never say "always" either. Some data nut like me will seek the exception. )

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NavyGetsOut ()
Date: February 15, 2008 03:50PM

Dont believe everything you read.

I dont agree it will go 10-2 for. I believe at least it will dead lock which will result in doing nothing. A win for those of us against doing something.

I am more inclined to believe that this change has only 5 supporters. The seven with sense are struggling with the following:


1. Coppermine-forces boundary change next year
2. Procedural problems with study
3. Changing enrollment numbers, current numbers just released by FCPS show SLHS up by approx. 70 students () from numbers provided to SB during summer. Westfield and Chantilly numbers are down.
4. Domino scenarios that continue to shift in order to appease the two SBs that need the most appeasing
5. Huge political pressure against a virtually all Dem board with elections for Dem colleagues on the horizon.
6. Stu is becoming radioactive and supporting him is potential trouble.

There is no compelling reason to redistrict next year. There are several pressing reasons not to redistrict next year.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 15, 2008 03:50PM

Thank you for the compliment, Forum Reader. I'm too old to have taken IB, but I probably would have liked IB since I was primarily interested in the humanities.

Forum Reader Wrote:
--
> Excellent, well, written post. Easy to pick out a
> topic sentence in each paragraph, as I did above,
> with logical, illuminating examples. (Did you
> need to take IB to learn to write so well?)
>
> In support of your comments, I again point out
> that In 05-06 a total of THREE South Lakes
> students took ANY AP exams. And in 06-07 in the
> entire county ONE student scored a "7" in HL math
> and ZERO scored a "7" in IB HL chemistry, biology,
> OR physics.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 03:53PM

Berdhuis Wrote:
> ... History is littered with unprincipled geniuses who
> had no regard for the valid sensitivities gained from
> studying the arts. We don't want to create more monsters, do we?

------------

Hitler started as a painter.

-------------------

[Yes, that was a joke. I subscribe to the principle that the first one who calls an opponent an Nazi automatically loses the argument. ]

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 15, 2008 03:58PM

Parent of Snot Nosed Brats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Manoj Bal Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > We preety much know why this is happening.
> South
> > > Lakes is stu's favorite child and Floris, Fox
> > > Mill, MI are the step children. All the rest
> > of
> > > the reasons are a hog wash. We also know
> where
> >
> > > Kathy stands on this. Remains to be seen
> where
> > > rest of the board members are.
> >
> > Stu and Kathy will need to come to an agreement
> > concerning their schools. The rest of the
> school
> > board will not interfere since the schools are
> in
> > not in their districts. Board members do not
> make
> > decisions about what happens in districts that
> > they do not represent. So they will all vote
> with
> > Stu and Kathy, except for Hone and Raney since
> > they are at large and therefore also represent
> > those areas. Moon is also at large, but he
> > doesn't care about constituents. He votes with
> > the other democrats, always. The vote will be
> 10
> > to 2 unless Stu and Kathy can't agree on the
> > boundaries. Then Kathy will be allowed to vote
> > against the new boundaries, knowing that it
> will
> > still pass easily on a 9 to 3 vote.
> >
> > That's my prediction.
>
>
> Stu and Kathy will come to a consensus. They are
> too smart to go in divided as the whole thing will
> crumble.
>
> I think the original proposal with the possibility
> of Navy staying will happen

If Navy ends up staying with Chantilly, Floris/Fox Mill/MI to SL, then Oakton would be underenrolled. Then this botched boundary will be invalidated since it indicated as Chantilly overcrowding. Again I just don't see why a RD is absolutely necessary right now.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:00PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> > ... History is littered with unprincipled
> geniuses who
> > had no regard for the valid sensitivities gained
> from
> > studying the arts. We don't want to create more
> monsters, do we?
>
> ------------
>
> Hitler started as a painter.
>
> -------------------

Grrrr, just what I needed, someone skooled in the arts to find the exception...

But I'll add another, Stalin began as a seminarian.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NavyGetsOut ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:14PM

So by dead lock my thought is politically isnt just the smarter way to go?

Say the SB puts 8 proposals on the table? You have Stu and Kathy's changes already.

What if Hone and Raney put up a couple of changes? What if Moon does the same?

There isnt any more time to talk to the public, the SB is on the clock for 2/28 because they want this done in time to make the changes.

So say the only proposal that will garner support is the first one that staff proposed?

How many people will vote against that one because of Navy?

You cant take Navy out without adjusting Oakton otherwise there is no efficiency you are just under enrolling one school to benefit another. There is NO I MEAN NO support on the board for Navy to be moved to Oakton. Well okay Stu would support it but no others will.

There is really no support for Kathy or Stu's new proposals for a number of reasons.

So where does that leave them. Why do you think Stu and Kathy went for the Hail Mary? Because they know that they have no support.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: AFMD ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:23PM

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You cant take Navy out without adjusting Oakton
> otherwise there is no efficiency you are just
> under enrolling one school to benefit another.
> There is NO I MEAN NO support on the board for
> Navy to be moved to Oakton. Well okay Stu would
> support it but no others will.

Why would any SB member who doesn't represent the CHS district be so opposed? I can see why Smith put up the new scenario but who else would have anything to lose by supporting Opt. 5?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NavyGetsOut ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:28PM

All of them have stated that they have serious problems with the commute Navy will have.

They cannot use proximity to justify Fox Mill, Madison and Floris while at the same time increasing a commute from 2.5 miles to 11 miles. This puts Navy in a hardship position.

This is fact. They will not support Navy going to Oakton. Stu and Kathy know this. Do you think they give a crap about Navy? No but they knew they were losing support for the change so they came up with the other options.

Ask yourself why would the architects of the redistricting plan the two people who have been meeting with various groups to assure them they will not be in this, why would the original designers of the Scenario 1 need to come up with 2 more scenarios?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:28PM

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> So by dead lock my thought is politically isnt
> just the smarter way to go?
>
> Say the SB puts 8 proposals on the table? You
> have Stu and Kathy's changes already.
>
> What if Hone and Raney put up a couple of changes?
> What if Moon does the same?
>
> There isnt any more time to talk to the public,
> the SB is on the clock for 2/28 because they want
> this done in time to make the changes.
>
> So say the only proposal that will garner support
> is the first one that staff proposed?
>
> How many people will vote against that one because
> of Navy?
>
> You cant take Navy out without adjusting Oakton
> otherwise there is no efficiency you are just
> under enrolling one school to benefit another.
> There is NO I MEAN NO support on the board for
> Navy to be moved to Oakton. Well okay Stu would
> support it but no others will.
>
> There is really no support for Kathy or Stu's new
> proposals for a number of reasons.
>
> So where does that leave them. Why do you think
> Stu and Kathy went for the Hail Mary? Because they
> know that they have no support.

------
I am not sure what you are saying, so correct me if I misinterpret you:

The RD fails if it hits a 6-6 tie. All the amendments are voted on before the main motion. No arguments so far.

If options 2,3, and all the way to 13 (one for each board) fail, then they vote on the main motion. You think the main motion will fail because of Navy. Thus you think the entire South Lakes redistricting effort will fail.

[Did I get that right?]

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: FACTS ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:29PM

DING DONG,THE KING IS NOT AS GOOD AS HE WANTS YOU TO THINK. HE CAN BULL SHIT SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT NOT ALL THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME.
HIS NUMBER IS UP AND HE NEEDS TO GO.

Mr. Gibson 2/15/08

I found many of your comments at last night's board meeting quite interesting and I would like to comment on them.

You stated that FCPS's legal department is doing a fabulous job and is extremely efficient but asked for a breakdown on costs incurred by that department. I think that is a great idea and I too would like to see where some of the legal budget money goes. Given that, I am officially making a FOIA request to you, for the amount of legal fees paid by FCPS to defend you regarding the incident last year where you violated the privacy of a child who has disabilities. Rather than apologize and save the school system money, you and The School Board chose to fight the complaint where, unfortunately for you, The State of Virginia ruled against you and declared that you did in fact violate the child' privacy. Perhaps that was not a prudent and pennywise decision and an apology might have been appropriate.

I heard Dan Storck mention that the Board members received a little FERPA workshop training. I am quite alarmed that you all were not familiar with the privacy rules designed to protect our students.

I also was a little troubled at your comments that "All of FCPS schools provide an excellent education for our students". It is this type of thinking that I believe has gotten this school system into a bit of trouble due to neglect. The truth is, many of our schools are not providing a very good education for our students, and frankly, the sooner you admit this and address these areas of weakness, the better off our students will be. I suggest you get your head out of the sand and start tending to these failing schools.

Let's review some of the schools in your district, if we can.

Dogwood Elementary

46% of Black and 44% of Latino 3rd graders failed the reading assessments. These numbers are significantly higher than the VA averages.

Twice as many 3rd grade boys fail the math tests than their female counterparts which is inconsistent with Va and division numbers where they typically perform the same. Why are boys at this school failing at such a disproportionate rate?

63% of Black and 45% of Latino 6th graders fail the math SOLs compared to 17% of Whites. That is quite a large minority achievement gap-I would guess one of the worst in Va.

McNair Elementary

40% of Black and (you better sit down) 76% of Latino 3rd graders fail the reading SOLs. The White students failed at a rate of 21% so the Latino students are failing at a rate of 3.5 times their White counterparts. Again, I would guess one of the largest gaps in Va.

Over 1 in 3 Black and Latino 3rd graders fail the math assessments-double the failure rate of Va school averages.

In 6th grade, 39% of Black students failed the reading tests which nearly double what it was the year before. This school is going in the wrong direction.

35% of 6th grade Latino students failed the reading tests which is three times as many as the year before.

65% of Latinos and 50% of Blacks failed the 6th grade math assessments. Are these kids ready for middle school with this type of educational foundation?

I think not. These schools are a disgrace and for you to continue to pontificate about what a great education these kids are getting is positively criminal.

FIX THESE SCHOOLS NOW. STOP LYING TO FAIRFAX COUNTY RESIDENTS AND PARENTS ABOUT THE GREAT JOB YOU ARE DOING.

Do your job or step aside and let someone else more capable do what is needed.

I look forward to the answer to my FOIA request and why these schools are failing.

Advocate for better schools

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NavyGetsOut ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:33PM

Forum Reader

Yes you've got it. There are two keys to a failure here. One is Navy and the other is Floris. Floris blocks agreement on Scenario 11b and 12 or 2 and 3.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Future Seahawk ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:38PM

How about some interesting facts about "Split Feeders" across the ENTIRE county. Here's how the middle schools play out with respect to the high schools...

There are
26 Middle Schools
24 High Schools (not including TJ)

Of those 26 middle schools:
20 Middle schools feed ONE single high school (nearly 80%)
4 feed two high schools
2 feed 3 high schools (CARSON and FRANKLIN)

In Scenarios 2 & 3 (Kathy and Stu) - RACHEL CARSON would feed a whopping 5 -
Westfield, Chantilly, Oakton, South Lakes, and Herndon.

On the flip side, of the 24 high schools,
17 are fed by ONE single middle school
4 are fed by two
3 are fed by 3 middle schools (Chantilly, Westfield, and Oakton)

What this shows: The Western end of the county has lost all notion of
pyramids and feeders. This redistricting is only making it WORSE. A
successful redistricting would make this BETTER.

These splits have gone beyond absurd to utterly ridiculous.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:38PM

Neen is again correct when she relates that the education establishment is not sufficiently attuned to math and science - our schools of education in this country are unduly devoted to a process based pedagogy that pays insufficient attention to substantive skills - whether those skills be history, language arts, math or science. But the problem really is insufficient focus on academic rigor -- education and psychology and pedagogic type courses prevail over substantive disciplines - and unfortunately math and science only happen to suffer even more than the other disciplines, as they are more challenging for most. The problem is compounded by the fact that the private sector pays more for these skills, and inspires people far more than the mediocre environments of many educational systems. My brother was a faculty member at a school many in Virginia desire to attend and when that school required that education majors ALSO major in another substantive discipline the hue and cry from the educrats was immense. Of course, sharing the perceptions that Neen relates here, he and other faculty members prevailed and the school is better for it. And so are students. Some of the the best teachers my kids had at the elemenatary level came from that school - and it is tough to say whether their prowess was due to the education they received or whether they are simply smarter - admissions standards are high - it is likely a combination of both - but students respond well to substantive excellence with teachers - and clearly, the notion that pedagogic classes that are often little more than hollow nods to diversity and other similarly politically correct concepts suffice to instill excellence needs to be burst.


But heck, it does explain to a degree why the liberal elitists with IB kids like their program - it probably does attract better and smarter teachers.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Logical Choice ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:48PM

Dear Clarity on Madison,

It would make no sense to move MI to Langley. The school board has recognized that South Lakes needs more real estate in its boundary and MI is the closest community, surrounded on the North and South by the South Lakes Pyramid, and it has undeveloped land. You can't change that not matter how much you would like to. Many, many areas have been redistricted in this county because of Administrative decisions. As we can see from this study, it is much easier to do before housing is built.

Vienna addresses that go to South Lakes have done the obvious thing. They have joined Reston pools and played sports in Reston. It's not a big deal. That's what I have done for my children. New families moving into your area and attending Reston schools will turn their focus to Reston. It makes no difference that they are not in the Reston Master Plan, any more than it makes sense for Equestrian Park (a Reston neighborhood) to be a part of Madison Island.

I was involved in the Hunter Mill study, and in no way was it intended to be about school boundaries. It was an issue of density, period.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:49PM

Hey NavyGetsOut,

How do you have such good insight on this? I recall you were the first to say that Navy would be excluded. How likely do you think it will be that none of the proposals gets the necessary seven votes?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: slam dunk ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:50PM

my guess is on this passing between 7-5 and 12-0

jane's thrown Madison North under the bus - done deal

kathy and stu will come to a deal or already have done

the at large members have not distinguished themselves by asking probing questions or displaying any back-bone

the others have no real skin in the game and will either vote for because they know their turn is coming up, or will be implicitly allowed to vote against so that it looks as if it wasn't a stitch-up from day one

either way it will pass and we're all screwed

the fact that the whole plan and process are lunatic is neither here nor there - none of them can back down, none of them want to fracture the board and they have no Plan B

what we think doesn't matter a bit - its a done deal

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Summery ()
Date: February 15, 2008 04:54PM

Oakton Parent: Fuck this noise! I'm not sending my kid there!!!

South Lakes Parent: Well fuck you! We don't want you here, and quit bashing our school!


Redistricting Passes


Oakton Parent/South Lakes Parent (in unison): FUCK!!!!!

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: FoxMillUnited ()
Date: February 15, 2008 05:04PM

I wrote all the board members and told them I don't care which choice they make, I want Fox Mill to stay together. I have little kids and parents spend most of their school time doing things at elementary schools and meeting other families like that. (I like that south lakes is close, but Oakton is ok.) I don't care so much about Carson MS because even if south lakes is in there my kids will make friends with many people who go to other schools and will find ways to stay together. My friends son in Floris has fiends at TJ and Westfield and Herndon and Paul the Sixth and even in Korea where one of his friends moved back. I am signed up for the hearing.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Anonymous ()
Date: February 15, 2008 05:09PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> > ...T hey will all vote with
> > Stu and Kathy, except for Hone and Raney since
> > they are at large and therefore also represent
> > those areas. Moon is also at large, but he
> > doesn't care about constituents. He votes with
> > the other democrats, always. ...
>
> Not quite. Way back when he was the one who voted
> 11-1 against adding the south county school to the
> CIP because he could see it would delay all the
> renovations, including South Lakes.
>
> (Neen, are you a Sean Connery fan? Reportedly he
> said he would "never" again play James Bond, but
> they offered him lots of money so he did one more
> Bond movie. It was called "Never Say Never". Never
> say "always" either. Some data nut like me will
> seek the exception. )


Moon cares about TJ and Koreans. Period.

Except now he is interested because he has a new light at the end of his political tunnel. Supervisor. So now he has to pretend he cares

Didn't I disprove your premise about delays 20-30 pages back?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Anonymous ()
Date: February 15, 2008 05:16PM

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader
>
> Yes you've got it. There are two keys to a
> failure here. One is Navy and the other is Floris.
> Floris blocks agreement on Scenario 11b and 12 or
> 2 and 3.


Rest assured the last amendment will be the original proposal minus Navy before navy is allowed to sink the whole thing. These amendments are structured and orchestrated in order for a reason....to ensure something gets done

Stu is the master at this and will make sure nothing ruins his grand plan...why do you think this was set just after an election?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Clarity on Madison ()
Date: February 15, 2008 05:22PM

Logical Choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Clarity on Madison,
>
> It would make no sense to move MI to Langley. The
> school board has recognized that South Lakes needs
> more real estate in its boundary and MI is the
> closest community, surrounded on the North and
> South by the South Lakes Pyramid, and it has
> undeveloped land. You can't change that not
> matter how much you would like to. Many, many
> areas have been redistricted in this county
> because of Administrative decisions. As we can
> see from this study, it is much easier to do
> before housing is built.
>
> Vienna addresses that go to South Lakes have done
> the obvious thing. They have joined Reston pools
> and played sports in Reston. It's not a big deal.
> That's what I have done for my children. New
> families moving into your area and attending
> Reston schools will turn their focus to Reston.
> It makes no difference that they are not in the
> Reston Master Plan, any more than it makes sense
> for Equestrian Park (a Reston neighborhood) to be
> a part of Madison Island.
>
> I was involved in the Hunter Mill study, and in no
> way was it intended to be about school boundaries.
> It was an issue of density, period.

The school board has 'said' that SLHS needs more real estate - they haven't shown any evidence or defensible reason

What they have done is hide a performance issue as a facilities issue and get upset when it gets diverted into a programmatic discussion

At the end of the day there's an unacceptable performance gap between SLHS and Madison, and even more so between Hughes and Thoreau - attempting to hide it with unwilling warm bodies is solely cowardice by the SB.

You're right the special study was about density but it was also clearly about what type and which community people had chosen to be part of.

The community asserted its right, identified in the comprehensive study to remain part of the low density area not be annexed into an expanding Reston-Herndon high-density corridor. Why should it to be forced to 'turn their focus to Reston' - the community has it made that clear that's not what they want

Just because kids can adapt to anything is no excuse to annex communities for no well explained reason other than political expediency

Reston is a community in and of itself - outsiders can't join the association and hence pay way over the odds for access for facilities, and in the case of summer schools held on federal property they have to wait until the spaces have been offered and taken up by to RA residents.

Reston can't have it both ways - it can either be its own little island with its eyes on town-hood or it can be just another part of the county.

The eastern reston planning boundary is a natural breakpoint between the dense planned community of reston and the low-density buffer. Some people chose the pleasures of walking to starbucks, some chose a suburban lifestyle.


In the case of Equestrian Park - its bounded to the west and south by commercial areas and to the North and east by areas zoned as low density - its in no way part of the Reston residential developments

Madison North should stay in Madison - however, I disagree that if has to be moved (and no-one has really explained why) SLHS is the right place - Langley makes more sense, freeing up one of the more westerly islands to be moved to SLHS

Why is that not going to happen? Because Jane has thrown MN under the bus to protect those very islands

In fact the most sensible choice is to move one or both of the astronaut schools

Why is that not going to happen? Because the HHS crowd made a point of saying that the majority of their parent support comes from the astronaut area (and hence I suspect most of the PTSA)

I raise the Langley option partly to show how arbitrary and capricious the process is.

Madison North should be just left alone - its not causing anyone any problems - its just an easy political target

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: FMP ()
Date: February 15, 2008 05:24PM

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader
>
> Yes you've got it. There are two keys to a
> failure here. One is Navy and the other is Floris.
> Floris blocks agreement on Scenario 11b and 12 or
> 2 and 3.


NavyGetsOut
I can undestand why moving Floris to Oakton would block agreement to scenario 3. Why do you think Floris will block scenario 2?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 05:45PM

Anonymous Wrote:

> Way back when he was the one who
> voted
> > 11-1 against adding the south county school to
> the
> > CIP because he could see it would delay all the
> > renovations, including South Lakes.
> >
> Didn't I disprove your premise about delays 20-30
> pages back?
--
No, you didn't. Go back and you will find I posted CIP data that show South Lakes, Glasgow, Woodson, and all follow-on renovations were delayed one to three years because south county bumped in line ahead of them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 05:57PM

Anonymous Wrote:
> Rest assured the last amendment will be the
> original proposal minus Navy before navy is
> allowed to sink the whole thing. ...

Doesn't the original amendment minus Navy make Oakton way too small?

If the Board votes to take Oakton down to 1,700 or less, are they not implying South County should stay a 1,700-capacity high school and brought to that number of students via redistricting?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Am Curious ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:05PM

Clarity on Madison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Reston is a community in and of itself - outsiders
> can't join the association and hence pay way over
> the odds for access for facilities, and in the
> case of summer schools held on federal property
> they have to wait until the spaces have been
> offered and taken up by to RA residents.
>
> Reston can't have it both ways - it can either be
> its own little island with its eyes on town-hood
> or it can be just another part of the county.

Clarity on Madison - so do you pay extra homeowners due for access to Vienna's pools?

There are two separate entitites at work here:

Reston Association (RA) - large HOA. Owns pools, facilities. Funded by homeowners' dues.

Reston Community Center (RCC) - a Fairfax County agency funded by a special tax district. Homeowners pay an extra amount of real estate tax and because of this get subsidized rates at RCC facilities.

So are you upset you aren't in either the hoa or the tax district? Maybe you can campaign Cathy Hudgins to get your neighbor annexed into the HOA or small tax district #5. I'm sure your neighbors would love paying the extra fees.

There are homes in Reston and Vienna who are not part of either the Reston HOA or the small tax district that go to South Lakes. Regardless of what TM says, Reston is not a town. South Lakes is not a Reston high school - it is a county school located in Reston.

.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Anonymous ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:14PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anonymous Wrote:
>
> > Way back when he was the one who
> > voted
> > > 11-1 against adding the south county school
> to
> > the
> > > CIP because he could see it would delay all
> the
> > > renovations, including South Lakes.
> > >
> > Didn't I disprove your premise about delays
> 20-30
> > pages back?
> --
> No, you didn't. Go back and you will find I posted
> CIP data that show South Lakes, Glasgow, Woodson,
> and all follow-on renovations were delayed one to
> three years because south county bumped in line
> ahead of them.

Hmmm...

You need to look beyond the data. The real reason was construction cost inflation which was underestimated significantly. You chase a spurious correlation and proffer as a causal factor when even FCPS doesn't believe you.

But we can agree to disagree.

Did you develop your own projections and backtest or are you still clinging to the CIP as a bible of truth?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:14PM

Parent of Snot Nosed Brats Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

>
> Stu and Kathy will come to a consensus. They are
> too smart to go in divided as the whole thing will
> crumble.

Of course they will come to an agreement, but that agreement may allow Kathy to vote against Stu, knowing it will pass without her vote. That would permit her to say that she did all she could to save her voters from whatever it is that they don't want. Stu and Kathy won't 'really' be divided but will have arranged her vote against the proposal, prior to the vote.

The last boundary change proposal should be known by the end of the last work session on the 21st. I don't imagine that they would go into the vote on the 28th with 3 different maps still on the table.

I agree, Navy will be left out. There won't be any 'backfill' at Oakton which will leave it with over 100 empty seats, more than enough for all those who want to pupil place back into Oakton, particularly since more empty seats will open each year. That makes this whole thing something of a win-win. Stu can claim to have done something about the under enrollment at South Lakes while most parents will be allowed to pupil place their kids back into Oakton. I think the bus drivers will allow the pupil placed kids on the buses too. So parents won't like the redistricting, but they will be happy their kids can still go to Oakton, something of a win for them. Floris kids should also be able to pupil place back into Westfield as it will not be at capacity either. They will also be able to pupil place at Herndon, which may be closer for some of them, and Herndon is also under enrolled.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Anonymous ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:16PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Parent of Snot Nosed Brats Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
>
> >
> > Stu and Kathy will come to a consensus. They
> are
> > too smart to go in divided as the whole thing
> will
> > crumble.
>
> Of course they will come to an agreement, but that
> agreement may allow Kathy to vote against Stu,
> knowing it will pass without her vote. That would
> permit her to say that she did all she could to
> save her voters from whatever it is that they
> don't want. Stu and Kathy won't 'really' be
> divided but will have arranged her vote against
> the proposal, prior to the vote.
>
> The last boundary change proposal should be known
> by the end of the last work session on the 21st.
> I don't imagine that they would go into the vote
> on the 28th with 3 different maps still on the
> table.
>
> I agree, Navy will be left out. There won't be
> any 'backfill' at Oakton which will leave it with
> over 100 empty seats, more than enough for all
> those who want to pupil place back into Oakton,
> particularly since more empty seats will open each
> year. That makes this whole thing something of a
> win-win. Stu can claim to have done something
> about the under enrollment at South Lakes while
> most parents will be allowed to pupil place their
> kids back into Oakton.

I completely agree....its all about the politcs

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Anonymous ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:20PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anonymous Wrote:
> > Rest assured the last amendment will be the
> > original proposal minus Navy before navy is
> > allowed to sink the whole thing. ...
>
> Doesn't the original amendment minus Navy make
> Oakton way too small?
>
> If the Board votes to take Oakton down to 1,700 or
> less, are they not implying South County should
> stay a 1,700-capacity high school and brought to
> that number of students via redistricting?

Political thought does not equate to rational thought...

I would think whatever they do here is irrelevant anywhere else because unlike law they don't believe in precedence

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Clarity on Madison ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:39PM

Am Curious Wrote:
> Maybe you can campaign Cathy
> Hudgins to get your neighbor annexed into the HOA
> or small tax district #5. I'm sure your neighbors
> would love paying the extra fees.
>

> .

Exactly, reston is a planned community

The Madison North community is not part of that community, cannot access its facilities, does not want to be part of it.

It part of a low density band and faces to Oakton and Vienna

Its a stable community that has always played its part in the success of its community school pyramid.

SLHS is, and will remain, primarily a Reston school filled by the Reston community - with the exception those seem to be fleeing poorly schools such as Hughes and SLHS through private schools and placement.

The SB has to come up with a better reason than 'it looks pretty on the map'

Most people are convinced that the real reason for all of this is to mask the performance issues at Hughes and South Lakes - all the rest is window dressing

Do you really think staff or the SB really care that MN might be an island?

No- its just a small enough community that can be picked off - especially when the hordes of families who were affected by previous options are pointing and saying 'take them not me!'


Why can't SLHS and its feeders focus on attracting families rather than annexing them? Because it would mean facing up to the very real performance issues.

40% higher staff:student ratios and poor outcomes - what gives

Why would anyone accept being bused in to hide something like that?

Its not class, its not ethnicity, its not bus distances - its performance and academic outcomes - the one real job of schools

Fix that and then invite people to come.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:40PM

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Anonymous Wrote:
> >
> > > Way back when he was the one who voted
> > > > 11-1 against adding the south county school to
> > > the CIP because he could see it would delay all
> > > > the renovations, including South Lakes.
> > > >
> > > Didn't I disprove your premise about delays
> > 20-30 pages back?
> > --
> > No, you didn't. Go back and you will find I posted
> > CIP data that show South Lakes, Glasgow, Woodson,
> > and all follow-on renovations were delayed one to
> > three years because south county bumped in line
> > ahead of them.
>
> Hmmm...
>
> You need to look beyond the data. The real reason
> was construction cost inflation which was
> underestimated significantly. You chase a
> spurious correlation and proffer as a causal
> factor when even FCPS doesn't believe you.
>
> Did you develop your own projections and backtest
> or are you still clinging to the CIP as a bible of
> truth?

----------

When it comes to the construction of scss we are discussing history, not projections.

*** Kindly tell us about the bond referendum in which we, the taxpayers, approved the SCSS. ***

This is an important factor because most big public construction projects, funded by bond sales, are approved by us, the voters, in advance.

To repeat what I wrote before, FCPS has to arrange and schedule its construction and renovation projects within the budget cap set by the County. Going back to the Proposed FY 2005-FY 09 CIP [the one discussed in the press release that you quoted at February 09, 2008 12:36PM] the total FCPS CIP project budget was as follows (page 43; numbers rounded to the nearest million):
FY 05 $128M
FY 06 $133M
FY 07 $131M
FY 08 $131M
FY 09 $129M

FCPS was holding pretty close to the County-imposed CIP cap of $130M per year on the average. Any disagreements so far?

Now look at page 41 of that document for a breakdown of expenses per project per year. Space on this thread is limited so I will list only the annual budget for the four big projects under discussion
Year / SCSS / So Lakes Renewal / Glasgow / Woodson Renewal
Prior years: $3M / $1M / $2M / $1M
FY 05 $4M / 0 / 0 / 0
FY 06 $20M / $13M / $2M / 0
FY 07 $26M / $30M / $2M / 13M
FY 08 $10M / $12M / $24M / $20M
FY 09 $0 / 0 / $13M / $17M

These data show planning for the Glasgow, South Lakes, and Woodson projects had already started prior to FY 05. Then these three projects came essentially to a halt to a halt for a year (South Lakes) or two (Woodson) or three (Glasgow) while at the same time the budget for the SCSS filled the CIP funding limit.

So yes, the Glasgow, South Lakes, and Woodson communities DO see the "causal relationship here between SC construction and renovation delays."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Logical Choice ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:46PM

Clarity, what if you are wrong? What if South Lakes needs additional students to have a working master schedule? What if pool dues for RA are no more expensive than the choices in Vienna, which are few and far between, btw? What if the purpose is not to mask poor performance but rather to expand the base? What if middle class peers at SL perform just as well as their counterparts at Madison (and they do)? What if you can't ignore that a large portion of MI is surrounded by Reston Schools? You have made a lot of assumptions, and you know what they say about that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Logical Choice ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:51PM

What if students who attend school in Reston have first dibs on camps, etc. without having to wait? Well, that is the case, so that excuse falls by the wayside. What if the student/teacher ratio at SL is so high because the ratio for the 150 MMR kids is something like 2/1? What if you are wrong? Do you really want to poison the well for all of the families in the South Lakes pyramid who may be your equals and the future friends of your neighborhood children.

Many, many years ago my sister, living in Reston, dated a boy on Crowell Road. They went to the same high school, Herndon. Things change, my friend.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 06:58PM

Logical Choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if students who attend school in Reston have
> first dibs on camps, etc. without having to wait?
> Well, that is the case, so that excuse falls by
> the wayside. What if the student/teacher ratio at
> SL is so high because the ratio for the 150 MMR
> kids is something like 2/1? What if you are
> wrong? Do you really want to poison the well for
> all of the families in the South Lakes pyramid who
> may be your equals and the future friends of your
> neighborhood children.
>
According to Dr.Dale, South Lakes receives extra funding, or more staffing, as one of the four small high schools in FCPS. Three of those four schools, including South also receives additional funding because they are IB schools. So they get double extra funding for additional staff for additional classes. It has NOTHING to do with MMR students. That's what Dr. Dale said about SL's higher teacher to student ratio. But what does he know? ;)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Anonymous ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:01PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anonymous Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Anonymous Wrote:
> > >
> > > > Way back when he was the one who voted
> > > > > 11-1 against adding the south county
> school to
> > > > the CIP because he could see it would delay
> all
> > > > > the renovations, including South Lakes.
> > > > >
> > > > Didn't I disprove your premise about delays
> > > 20-30 pages back?
> > > --
> > > No, you didn't. Go back and you will find I
> posted
> > > CIP data that show South Lakes, Glasgow,
> Woodson,
> > > and all follow-on renovations were delayed one
> to
> > > three years because south county bumped in
> line
> > > ahead of them.
> >
> > Hmmm...
> >
> > You need to look beyond the data. The real
> reason
> > was construction cost inflation which was
> > underestimated significantly. You chase a
> > spurious correlation and proffer as a causal
> > factor when even FCPS doesn't believe you.
> >
> > Did you develop your own projections and
> backtest
> > or are you still clinging to the CIP as a bible
> of
> > truth?
>
> ----------
>
> When it comes to the construction of scss we are
> discussing history, not projections.
>
> *** Kindly tell us about the bond referendum in
> which we, the taxpayers, approved the SCSS. ***
>
> This is an important factor because most big
> public construction projects, funded by bond
> sales, are approved by us, the voters, in advance.
>
>
> To repeat what I wrote before, FCPS has to arrange
> and schedule its construction and renovation
> projects within the budget cap set by the County.
> Going back to the Proposed FY 2005-FY 09 CIP the
> total FCPS CIP project budget was as follows (page
> 43; numbers rounded to the nearest million):
> FY 05 $128M
> FY 06 $133M
> FY 07 $131M
> FY 08 $131M
> FY 09 $129M
>
> FCPS was holding pretty close to the
> County-imposed CIP cap of $130M per year on the
> average. Any disagreements so far?
>
> Now look at page 41 of that document for a
> breakdown of expenses per project per year. Space
> on this thread is limited so I will list only the
> annual budget for the four big projects under
> discussion
> Year / SCSS / So Lakes Renewal / Glasgow / Woodson
> Renewal
> Prior years: $3M / $1M / $2M / $1M
> FY 05 $4M / 0 / 0 / 0
> FY 06 $20M / $13M / $2M / 0
> FY 07 $26M / $30M / $2M / 13M
> FY 08 $10M / $12M / $24M / $20M
> FY 09 $0 / 0 / $13M / $17M
>
> These data show planning for the Glasgow, South
> Lakes, and Woodson projects had already started
> prior to FY 05. Then these three projects came
> essentially to a halt to a halt for a year (South
> Lakes) or two (Woodson) or three (Glasgow) while
> at the same time the budget for the SCSS filled
> the CIP funding limit.
>
> So yes, the Glasgow, South Lakes, and Woodson
> communities DO see the "causal relationship here
> between SC construction and renovation delays."

What do you believe?

All the data in the world just gives you information. But it doesn't give you knowledge or wisdom.

You don't have to recite the data for me. I believe I have already showed you I know the data or have access to it. Your data here does not make the case the you want. It merely points out two issues. You need to prove correlation

How much of the delayed effect was unexpected construction inflation and how much was South County which was bridged to construction 3 years early with outside money?

What was the assumed construction inflation in 1999 and what is the assumed construction inflation now for 2009 and for 2010 and beyond?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:11PM

>>>Why can't SLHS and its feeders focus on attracting families rather than annexing them? Because it would mean facing up to the very real performance issues.

40% higher staff:student ratios and poor outcomes - what gives

Why would anyone accept being bused in to hide something like that?

Its not class, its not ethnicity, its not bus distances - its performance and academic outcomes - the one real job of schools

Fix that and then invite people to come.<<<

Well said. Rather than fixing the problems at Dogwood, Lake Anne, and Terraset, they continue as they are, with no academic program changes, allowing those children to eventually make it to high school totally unprepared. Fixing the problems from the beginning is what should be done but it's easier to paste over those problems by drawing in more high performing students to boost the average scores at South Lakes. Replacing the flaky educational programs at Lake Anne, Dogwood, and Terraset, with real math, direct instruction, and phonics based reading would go a long way to helping prepare those FRL students to perform better in middle school and high school. But that would go against Stu's ideology, so he's never pushed the system to help those students to learn. A severely under enrolled high school is the ultimate result of failing those children in their early years. Now they are asking others to pay for those failures by forcing them to attend South Lakes. It is not fair to those students whose educational needs have been ignored, nor is it fair to ask others to move to South Lakes to mask the failures of the educational system.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:18PM

Anonymous Wrote:
> What do you believe?
>
> All the data in the world just gives you
> information. But it doesn't give you knowledge or
> wisdom.<<<

What does that mean? Facts don't show emotions? True. Facts are, well, facts. They don't need to impart wisdom. They impart reality.

> How much of the delayed effect was unexpected
> construction inflation and how much was South
> County which was bridged to construction 3 years
> early with outside money?<<<

How did South County manage to get finished 3 years early? There was no unexpected construction inflation there, but only at the other three schools that were scheduled for renovation?

PUHLEEZE. Everyone knows why the renovations got bumped back. South County people played it very well to get their school built on the backs of every other school. Sounds like they played you too.

How can anyone doubt that this group will get their middle school bumped up on the schedule? Our school board will believe anything, even when presented with the facts.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:25PM

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Parent of Snot Nosed Brats Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Stu and Kathy will come to a consensus. They
> > are
> > > too smart to go in divided as the whole thing
> > will
> > > crumble.
> >
> > Of course they will come to an agreement, but
> that
> > agreement may allow Kathy to vote against Stu,
> > knowing it will pass without her vote. That
> would
> > permit her to say that she did all she could to
> > save her voters from whatever it is that they
> > don't want. Stu and Kathy won't 'really' be
> > divided but will have arranged her vote against
> > the proposal, prior to the vote.
> >
> > The last boundary change proposal should be
> known
> > by the end of the last work session on the 21st.
>
> > I don't imagine that they would go into the
> vote
> > on the 28th with 3 different maps still on the
> > table.
> >
> > I agree, Navy will be left out. There won't be
> > any 'backfill' at Oakton which will leave it
> with
> > over 100 empty seats, more than enough for all
> > those who want to pupil place back into Oakton,
> > particularly since more empty seats will open
> each
> > year. That makes this whole thing something of
> a
> > win-win. Stu can claim to have done something
> > about the under enrollment at South Lakes while
> > most parents will be allowed to pupil place
> their
> > kids back into Oakton.
>
> I completely agree....its all about the politcs

Why do so few people understand that? Every large organization is all about politics, especially those that are run by politicians!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:27PM

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader
> >
> > Yes you've got it. There are two keys to a
> > failure here. One is Navy and the other is
> Floris.
> > Floris blocks agreement on Scenario 11b and 12
> or
> > 2 and 3.
>
>
> Rest assured the last amendment will be the
> original proposal minus Navy before navy is
> allowed to sink the whole thing. These amendments
> are structured and orchestrated in order for a
> reason....to ensure something gets done
>
> Stu is the master at this and will make sure
> nothing ruins his grand plan...why do you think
> this was set just after an election?

How would Navy 'sink the whole thing'? The SB doesn't need Kathy's vote to pass the redistricting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:35PM

Anonymous said,

>>>Moon cares about TJ and Koreans. Period.<<<

Oh? Really? When did Moon ever do anything for either? He voted for that silly "Everyday Math" which no GT parents or TJ people wanted. Koreans lobbied him against it. He voted for affirmative action at TJ which could only penalize Asian students since they are way over represented at TJ. (TJ population Asians are about 33%, more than twice the percentage in the county.) Again, Asians lobbied Moon to oppose it. He wouldn't. He's voted with the democrats on every dumbing down program in FCPS. That's not what Asians support.

I have never known Moon to do anything that parents at TJ want or that Koreans support. But maybe I'm wrong and he does something for Asians. I'd be interested in learning what those things might be.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WoW ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:45PM

Logical Choice -What makes you so angry?

If you live in one of the 3 Toll Brothers developments that were sent to SLHS pyramid by admin. order, you knew what you were buying into when you bought. The houses that made Madison North a peninsula are all Toll Brothers Developments sent to SL by admin order 12 years ago. The other Toll Brothers developments are younger than most of our children. Those of us with children involved in this study knew as you did what school our kids would attend. The average age of a child on the ISLAND involved in this study is 8 years old. Our homes have been part of Madison for 23 years. Bottom line we bought our houses as you did, assuming our kids would go to the schools assigned at the time. We built our connections on that basis. We would have had to have ESP to see this coming as no one ever told us. In fact we were not told of this until after the Town Hall meetings started.

When did the fact that we were Madison and you were South Lakes become a problem? Our other neighbors are Langley, Marshall and Mclean they dont have a problem with us and you dont have a problem with them. When did we become the enemy? Why do you want my second grader so bad?

In this we have never advocated that another group be drawn in. We have never spoken ill of you. What makes you so angry?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NavyGetsOut ()
Date: February 15, 2008 07:57PM

Navy sinks it because they are the only suitable candidate to replace Fox Mill coming out of Oakton.

There are hundreds of kids coming out of Oakton via Fox Mill's transfer to SLHS. Who will replace them if not Navy?

No SBM will support a serious increase in commute just to satisfy Stu. So who will it be?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: practicality ()
Date: February 15, 2008 08:35PM

why should the school board be so concerned about navy's increased commute from under 3 miles to 6.5 miles when lots of other communities in the county travel longer distances to their high schools--like north herndon to langley, for example? many of these neighborhoods pass other closer schools to get to the one they are districted to. should part of floris go 11 miles to oakton to save navy from a 6.5 mile drive? and should chantilly highlands get carved up to different high schools to save navy from a longer commute? fox mill is in the mix solely because it is in just the right location to make the puzzle work--sort of like navy. how many neighborhoods and schools need to become split feeders to appease navy's opposition to a longer commute, which is really not that long by fairfax county standards? by the way, oakton is an excellent school no matter how you measure it. navy would be lucky to go there. scenario 1 wins.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 08:38PM

Anonymous Wrote:
> ... You don't have to recite the data for me. I
> believe I have already showed you I know the data
> or have access to it. ...

Then please cite the language on the bond referendum in which we voters decided Fairfax County should issue bonds to build south county secondary school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: OaktonistheBest ()
Date: February 15, 2008 08:44PM

Looks like everyone wants to stay at or should be lucky to go to Oakton High School.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: NavyGetsOut ()
Date: February 15, 2008 08:49PM

I will go back over this again.

Make no mistake the Staff did not hatch the scenario they presented to the SB. For months everyone on this thread minus the SLs have claimed that SLPTSA knew the proposal prior to staff proposing it. Right?

So who designed the RD plan? Stu and Kathy. Right?

Then tell me why Stu and Kathy would need to come up with alternatives to their own plan? They hatched the plan, the staff supported the plan the board looked at it and had one primary problem Navy.

So Stu and Kathy went back to the drawing board in an effort to get the votes they need. Rather than be patient and go door to door with their new maps they spring them on the other SBMs. As if to say see problem solved! However now they have shown cards. Stu must have Fox Mill even if it means Floris can double and increase their commute by four times. He made a promise to someone that he will get FM. Kathy on the other hand has shown her cards with Oak Hill and also with Floris, a group she cant stand and wants out of her schools.

So now where do they sit with the SBMs that have some sense? I suspect they have become as transparent to them as they are to us.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 15, 2008 08:53PM

practicality Wrote:
> why should the school board be so concerned about
> navy's increased commute from under 3 miles to 6.5
> miles when lots of other communities in the county
> travel longer distances to their high
> schools--like north herndon to langley, for
> example?

I don't remember"practicality" as anyone I have responded to thus far, so I will stop with just your first question.

I don't know why. What would the balance be if north Hendon and the rest of Forestville shifted to a closer school, meaning Herndon, and whatever neighborhoods that attend currently attend Hendon but are in the Reston tax district shifted to South Lakes?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: practicality ()
Date: February 15, 2008 08:56PM

perhaps for many board members the only thing less palatable than voting for one of these options is having to go through this again next year. the only thing the new scenarios show is that option 1 (aka option 5) was the best that could be done with the fewest disruptions given the parameters of the study.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 15, 2008 09:12PM

practicality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> perhaps for many board members the only thing less
> palatable than voting for one of these options is
> having to go through this again next year. the
> only thing the new scenarios show is that option 1
> (aka option 5) was the best that could be done
> with the fewest disruptions given the parameters
> of the study.


Practicality
May be you should include either herndon or South Lakes in your name now because you are exposed. You must be from Herndon or Reston area who is willing to throw other communities under bus. You are very good at that. And you care ssssoooooooooooooo much about the board members that you don't want them to suffer again next year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ohyea ()
Date: February 15, 2008 09:17PM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> practicality Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > perhaps for many board members the only thing
> less
> > palatable than voting for one of these options
> is
> > having to go through this again next year. the
> > only thing the new scenarios show is that option
> 1
> > (aka option 5) was the best that could be done
> > with the fewest disruptions given the
> parameters
> > of the study.
>
>
> Practicality
> May be you should include either herndon or South
> Lakes in your name now because you are exposed.
> You must be from Herndon or Reston area who is
> willing to throw other communities under bus. You
> are very good at that. And you care
> ssssoooooooooooooo much about the board members
> that you don't want them to suffer again next
> year.


You are so right. anyone pushing so hard for this has to be from southlakes or herndon. those are the only people so far that I've heard that are willing to toss neigbhorhoods here and there so long as they eventually get what they want.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: OaktonistheBest ()
Date: February 15, 2008 09:21PM

Since Oakton is such a superior school, I'm sure the people of Floris would be thrilled to go there and instead of south lakes and won't mind the commute so it's win-win.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 15, 2008 09:21PM

practicality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> perhaps for many board members the only thing less
> palatable than voting for one of these options is
> having to go through this again next year. the
> only thing the new scenarios show is that option 1
> (aka option 5) was the best that could be done
> with the fewest disruptions given the parameters
> of the study.

South Lakes does not want McNair, so we can expect Options 1, 2 and 3 to be dead on arrival. That leaves us with Options 4, 5, 11 and 12. Any wagers out there?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 15, 2008 09:29PM

I think we'll see more scenarios being posted. All of them are rife with excruciating contradictions. And given the scope of the study, any new ones will contain equally contentious contradictions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: option 13 ()
Date: February 15, 2008 09:29PM

I like option 13

Fix Hughes, turn SLHS into an IB magnet and leave the rest of us in peace to bring up our kids

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: VoiceofReason? ()
Date: February 15, 2008 09:36PM

Let's face it, these current alternative scenarios were out there from the beginning. Just go back and look at original options 1 and 4. Those Floris, McNair and Oak Hill pieces are right there. The bottom line is that the original meetings were just done to make it look good. They pretend that staff makes a recommendation - original option 3 with a slight modification. Then the SB pretends to listen to the public by making alternatives which really are just the original options. So, what we have now is the school board sitting down with the 3 of the 4 original options making a decision with no input from the public. Just what they wanted to do it the first place.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Logical Choice ()
Date: February 15, 2008 10:24PM

WoW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Logical Choice -What makes you so angry?
>
> If you live in one of the 3 Toll Brothers
> developments that were sent to SLHS pyramid by
> admin. order, you knew what you were buying into
> when you bought. The houses that made Madison
> North a peninsula are all Toll Brothers
> Developments sent to SL by admin order 12 years
> ago. The other Toll Brothers developments are
> younger than most of our children. Those of us
> with children involved in this study knew as you
> did what school our kids would attend. The
> average age of a child on the ISLAND involved in
> this study is 8 years old. Our homes have been
> part of Madison for 23 years. Bottom line we
> bought our houses as you did, assuming our kids
> would go to the schools assigned at the time. We
> built our connections on that basis. We would have
> had to have ESP to see this coming as no one ever
> told us. In fact we were not told of this until
> after the Town Hall meetings started.
>
> When did the fact that we were Madison and you
> were South Lakes become a problem? Our other
> neighbors are Langley, Marshall and Mclean they
> dont have a problem with us and you dont have a
> problem with them. When did we become the enemy?
> Why do you want my second grader so bad?
>
> In this we have never advocated that another group
> be drawn in. We have never spoken ill of you.
> What makes you so angry?

I don't live in a Toll Brothers neighborhood, but in another SL neighborhood with a Vienna address. I happen to think SL is a great school, based on direct experience. I look at test scores of my childrens' peers and see that they are equal to those at Madison, so I don't see doom and gloom that you see. I have many Vienna friends and many Reston friends and many Oakton friends, and on and on. I don't see the impediments that you see. I like my large circle of friends. I am very happy. Perhaps you haven't spoken ill, which I respect, but others in your area have. I have always wondered why you were not part of our pyramid, btw.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Logical Choice ()
Date: February 15, 2008 10:26PM

OaktonistheBest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like everyone wants to stay at or should be
> lucky to go to Oakton High School.

Does that make you the best? Just wondering.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 15, 2008 10:27PM

VoiceofReason? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's face it, these current alternative scenarios
> were out there from the beginning. Just go back
> and look at original options 1 and 4. Those
> Floris, McNair and Oak Hill pieces are right
> there. The bottom line is that the original
> meetings were just done to make it look good.
> They pretend that staff makes a recommendation -
> original option 3 with a slight modification.
> Then the SB pretends to listen to the public by
> making alternatives which really are just the
> original options. So, what we have now is the
> school board sitting down with the 3 of the 4
> original options making a decision with no input
> from the public. Just what they wanted to do it
> the first place.

I have been reading the posts about what might be the final scenario..like Neen said before, we have no idea who will end up going to South Lakes when vote day comes. Until then no one is safe. If it comes to a deadlock because of pressing issues such as the Coppermine ES coming up, Stu acting like a warped idiot or the budget issues, etc then no reason for a RD. My parents who live in the southern part of VA has heard the news on tv about the Western county boundary war and asked me what was going on out there. They raised me and my sibs in Fairfax County for over 25 years and they don't remember a high school redistricting as this one REALLY bad. They asked where was the sbm's logic in redistricting communities from AP based high schools to an IB high school. They said if the RD goes through, it will just fail. I have to concur. It's out of control.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Stu_Gibson_legal_war_chest ()
Date: February 15, 2008 10:43PM

Stu has 3.5Million Dollars lined up to fight the legal law suits in the budget!!. Cut programs for students, add to the legal war fund of Stu. !!

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: OaktonistheBest ()
Date: February 15, 2008 11:33PM

Logical Choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OaktonistheBest Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Looks like everyone wants to stay at or should
> be
> > lucky to go to Oakton High School.
>
> Does that make you the best? Just wondering.

According to what I've read on this board, Oakton is the best school around.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 15, 2008 11:39PM

$3.5 Million to move 600 kids to South Lakes...that's like $6,000 / student. Wouldn't it be more straightforward to offer cash incentives?

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 16, 2008 01:35AM

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ???????? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The SB should use South Lakes, Falls Church and
> > Mt. Vernon 1st. Sounds like the FCPS have empty
> > seats, but the SB will not use these seats.
>
> They renovate them with $50 million renoivations
> and throw IB in them and hope that that people
> will come.
>
> Stu will put people in South Lakes if he gets his
> way. Kaye/Phil won't for Falls Church and neither
> will Dan for Mount Vernon

Why not? Why is only Stu asking for more students for his school?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 16, 2008 01:46AM

Anonymous Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------->>>
Guess which 2 SB secretly negotiated Jack Dale's deal and then secretly renogotiated an extension of 3 years in only the first year of his first term?<<<<

Stu and ? Phil?

Why was any of it done in secret?

How many more years are on Dale's contract? When will Stu give him another raise and renew the contract for another 3 years?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:23AM

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we'll see more scenarios being posted. All
> of them are rife with excruciating contradictions.
> And given the scope of the study, any new ones
> will contain equally contentious contradictions.

I agree and that means long term problems and it explains the increase in legal fees to $3.5 million.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:24AM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> $3.5 Million to move 600 kids to South
> Lakes...that's like $6,000 / student. Wouldn't it
> be more straightforward to offer cash incentives?

It would also be a lot cheaper to add an AP program and then let the new South Lakes community decide if they will keep the AP program or the IB program.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:37AM

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dont believe everything you read.
>
> I dont agree it will go 10-2 for. I believe at
> least it will dead lock which will result in doing
> nothing. A win for those of us against doing
> something.
>
> I am more inclined to believe that this change has
> only 5 supporters. The seven with sense are
> struggling with the following:
>
>
> 1. Coppermine-forces boundary change next year
> 2. Procedural problems with study
> 3. Changing enrollment numbers, current numbers
> just released by FCPS show SLHS up by approx. 70
> students () from numbers provided to SB during
> summer. Westfield and Chantilly numbers are down.
> 4. Domino scenarios that continue to shift in
> order to appease the two SBs that need the most
> appeasing
> 5. Huge political pressure against a virtually all
> Dem board with elections for Dem colleagues on the
> horizon.
> 6. Stu is becoming radioactive and supporting him
> is potential trouble.
>
> There is no compelling reason to redistrict next
> year. There are several pressing reasons not to
> redistrict next year.

You have made some compelling arguments. Stu seems to think that he will win this. That's what he is telling his supporters. But I have to agree that he causes major problems for Connelly. He added to Connelly's problems yesterday when with his amendment to raise the amount the SB is asking for.

Who are the 5 supporters of RD? Stu, Kathy, Janie, Tessie, and Phil? Add in Moon and you only need one more for Stu to get it passed.

I do think that it's wrong to have a public hearing about South Lakes boundaries and to permit no speakers from South Lakes, and only people who oppose redistricting. Very curious. Why did Stu agree to that? It can only hurt his cause, and unearth more arguments against redistricting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:53AM

VeryConfuse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After follow this RD process so far, it's my
> understanding that the RD will go through. So Fox
> Mill/Floris kids will join SL this fall but
> majority of them will pupil place out to an AP
> school.
>
> So what's the point for this RD? The only
> difference I can see is that whoever pupil placed
> out of SL will have to provide transportation
> themselves. Is this going to reduce the
> transportation cost for FCPS?

Nope. It won't save a dime, in fact it will cost more to run double buses to all those redistricted neighborhoods. Redistricted kids may be allowed on those buses back to Oakton, or they may have to get rides with the older kids in their neighborhoods who drive, or carpool.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 16, 2008 03:02AM

Almost Done with FCPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> >
> > With the boundary phase in process, if the RD
> goes
> > through, redistricted kids who are pupil-placed
> > out can ride with their older high school
> > neighbors (under the grandfather clause). It
> > would be absolutely ridiculous if the
> redistricted
> > kids who are granted pupil placment cannot ride
> > the bus with the grandfathered older students
> to
> > their "old" schools.
>
>
> It would be absolutely ridiculous, but I bet it's
> true. My daughter has been pupil-placed for 3
> years. Each year the approval letter has told us
> that she can't ride a bus due to "insurance"
> issues. Mom drove her to school every day her
> sophomore year. Fortunately, (a) she got a
> parking pass both junior and senior years, and (b)
> we were able to afford a car for her to drive to
> school.

Does the bus come through your neighborhood and take kids to your daughter's school? Presumably it's your neighborhood school if there are local bus stops. If so, why would you have to pupil place your daughter? If the bus doesn't already come to your neighborhood, because you are placing her into a school not in your neighborhood, it's a moot point, of course you would have to provide transportation.

In the case of redistricting, buses will be in the neighborhood, taking the grandfathered kids to school. I doubt the bus drivers have any idea who belongs on the bus and who doesn't. They just pick up the kids at the bus stop. Don't they? I admit that I don't know personally since both of my sons always got a ride to their high schools with older kids in the neighborhood until they could drive themselves to school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 16, 2008 03:59AM

Am Curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regardless of what TM says, Reston is not a town. South Lakes is not a Reston
> high school - it is a county school located in Reston.

While I agree with most of your post, I do request that I be quoted accurately:

Reston is a city!

South Lakes is Reston's high school.

Like Madison, Herndon and Fairfax high schools, children from outside Reston attend South Lakes.

Though some of the "townies" occasionally slight the interlopers, a plurality of the denizen of those localities are of sufficient open heartedness as to welcome all comers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2008 08:29AM by Thomas More.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Not going to South Lakes ()
Date: February 16, 2008 04:21AM

Logical Choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WoW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Logical Choice -What makes you so angry?
> >
> > If you live in one of the 3 Toll Brothers
> > developments that were sent to SLHS pyramid by
> > admin. order, you knew what you were buying
> into
> > when you bought. The houses that made Madison
> > North a peninsula are all Toll Brothers
> > Developments sent to SL by admin order 12 years
> > ago. The other Toll Brothers developments are
> > younger than most of our children. Those of us
> > with children involved in this study knew as
> you
> > did what school our kids would attend. The
> > average age of a child on the ISLAND involved
> in
> > this study is 8 years old. Our homes have been
> > part of Madison for 23 years. Bottom line we
> > bought our houses as you did, assuming our kids
> > would go to the schools assigned at the time.
> We
> > built our connections on that basis. We would
> have
> > had to have ESP to see this coming as no one
> ever
> > told us. In fact we were not told of this until
> > after the Town Hall meetings started.
> >
> > When did the fact that we were Madison and you
> > were South Lakes become a problem? Our other
> > neighbors are Langley, Marshall and Mclean they
> > dont have a problem with us and you dont have a
> > problem with them. When did we become the
> enemy?
> > Why do you want my second grader so bad?
> >
> > In this we have never advocated that another
> group
> > be drawn in. We have never spoken ill of you.
> > What makes you so angry?
>
> I don't live in a Toll Brothers neighborhood, but
> in another SL neighborhood with a Vienna address.
> I happen to think SL is a great school, based on
> direct experience. I look at test scores of my
> childrens' peers and see that they are equal to
> those at Madison, so I don't see doom and gloom
> that you see. I have many Vienna friends and many
> Reston friends and many Oakton friends, and on and
> on. I don't see the impediments that you see. I
> like my large circle of friends. I am very happy.
> Perhaps you haven't spoken ill, which I respect,
> but others in your area have. I have always
> wondered why you were not part of our pyramid,
> btw.


Toll Brothers continued, in 1995, to represent in the MLS listings for Hunter Mill Estates, that the neighborhood was in the Oakton ES/Thoreau/Madison HS school districts. Shame on me for trusting a developer.

My children prospered at Sunrise Valley and Langston Hughes, but they do not and will not attend South Lakes, not because of the student population, but because IB is not appropriate for them. We are fortunate that our oldest child was accepted to and attends TJHSST. Our younger child is hoping to also attend Jefferson, but, if not, we have a pupil placement application in to attend Madison (where we thought, when we bought our home, that our children would be attending--we moved from two neighborhoods away, within the Madison boundaries). If Madison does not accept the pupil placement application (our child does not play baseball or any other priority sport--seemingly Madison's main criteria), we are prepared to send this GT student to private school.

As much as I respect Bruce Butler as a person and administrator, he has made an unwise choice getting on the IB bandwagon. Count us among those whose children will not attend SL,despite living within the SL boundaries.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: option 20 ()
Date: February 16, 2008 08:17AM

I can't help thinking that the new 600 seat catholic girl school planned in Madison North just off of Crowell spotted a niche in the market

Wonder what proportion of their intake will come from the study area? 50% or more?

Doesn't help the boys though

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WoW ()
Date: February 16, 2008 08:26AM

Logical Choice-

You mention people from Madison North speaking ill of you. If that is so and I can tell you I have never heard anything of the sort. You have no part in the decision process here so you are irrelevant to us in this. Unless you are Mr. Gibson, and if so I can admit to some ill will focused in his direction. If I am incorrect on whether the people of our area have spoken ill of you directly, they may do so because they feel your hostility.

So far your posts have been filled with venom directed at us. In your response to me you spoke of South Lakes test scores being good as though my post had suggested they were not. As I mentioned I have a 2nd grader I am hardly thinking of South Lakes at this point. You said you dont see 'doom and gloom' as I do yet my post did not suggest that I see doom and gloom.

What I see is a group of people that have alienated their neighbors in an attempt to force their neighbors children to attend a high school they have no familiarity with. The claim is that this school needs more students. Obviously you must need more than students or there would be no need to force anyone to attend.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 16, 2008 08:26AM

The SL kids signed up for classes this week. Did anyone find AP Government & AP Human Geography in the course listing?

Did anyone's kid sign up for Human Geography?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 16, 2008 10:13AM

Thomas More asks: "Did anyone's kid sign up for Human Geography?"

I'm personally interested in stuff like that, as my historical atlases can attent to, but it seems like a low priority for most kids, either for high school or college. Are there college programs with a geography requirement?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Outsider ()
Date: February 16, 2008 10:35AM

WoW Wrote:
> What I see is a group of people that have
> alienated their neighbors in an attempt to force
> their neighbors children to attend a high school
> they have no familiarity with. The claim is that
> this school needs more students. Obviously you
> must need more than students or there would be no
> need to force anyone to attend.

The last time I know of when there was a high school boundary change that had nothing to do with a new school was when parents west of 123 pushed year after year to get out of Fairfax and into Woodson. Woodson, facing both a renovation and over-crowding, did not want these additional students, but got them anyway. These "Popes Head Road" students attended Oak View Elementary which is literally across the street from Robinson. To get to Woodson they drive north on 123 past Robinson then east on Braddock, again past Robinson, to get to Woodson. Robinson has plenty of space for these students.

The Popes Head Road RD was the opposite of what is going on at South Lakes. They were fighting to get into a school instead of fighting NOT to go. If the Popes Head Road people wanted out of Fairfax, why didn't they fight to get into Robinson? What is the difference between Woodson and Robinson?

One major difference: Robinson has IB and Woodson has AP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 16, 2008 10:35AM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More asks: "Did anyone's kid sign up for
> Human Geography?"
>
> I'm personally interested in stuff like that, as
> my historical atlases can attent to, but it seems
> like a low priority for most kids, either for high
> school or college. Are there college programs
> with a geography requirement?

Based on the course description, it looks like an intro. to anthropology.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 16, 2008 10:35AM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More asks: "Did anyone's kid sign up for
> Human Geography?"
>
> I'm personally interested in stuff like that, as
> my historical atlases can attent to, but it seems
> like a low priority for most kids, either for high
> school or college. Are there college programs
> with a geography requirement?

That reminds me..my daughter asked me if SL was going to offer an AP course and I told her they were going to offer Human Geography. She said "Human Geography"? She asked why was it called "human Geography" and said the title sounded too similar to Health Ed about the human anatomy. Yes, your question was good about the requirement for college!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 16, 2008 10:40AM

Did I hear it right that the head of the FFT is encouraging its membership to sign the petition to recall Stuy?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 16, 2008 10:49AM

Thomas More Wrote:
> > "Did anyone's kid sign up for Human Geography?"
-----
> Based on the course description, it looks like an
> intro. to anthropology.

--
Looking at the social studies courses in the online catalog for 07-08 for South Lakes, I see AP Government. At first glance it looks like US Government, not Comparative.

I do NOT see AP Human Geography - can anyone tell me which page it is on?

If AP Human Geography is like "intro. to anthropology" then why doesn't SLHS just add IB Cultural Anthropology, which I understand is an excellent course?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: marshall to mclean move ()
Date: February 16, 2008 11:02AM

Outsider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WoW Wrote:
> > What I see is a group of people that have
> > alienated their neighbors in an attempt to
> force
> > their neighbors children to attend a high
> school
> > they have no familiarity with. The claim is
> that
> > this school needs more students. Obviously you
> > must need more than students or there would be
> no
> > need to force anyone to attend.
>
> The last time I know of when there was a high
> school boundary change that had nothing to do with
> a new school was when parents west of 123 pushed
> year after year to get out of Fairfax and into
> Woodson. Woodson, facing both a renovation and
> over-crowding, did not want these additional
> students, but got them anyway. These "Popes Head
> Road" students attended Oak View Elementary which
> is literally across the street from Robinson. To
> get to Woodson they drive north on 123 past
> Robinson then east on Braddock, again past
> Robinson, to get to Woodson. Robinson has plenty
> of space for these students.
>
> The Popes Head Road RD was the opposite of what is
> going on at South Lakes. They were fighting to get
> into a school instead of fighting NOT to go. If
> the Popes Head Road people wanted out of Fairfax,
> why didn't they fight to get into Robinson? What
> is the difference between Woodson and Robinson?
>
> One major difference: Robinson has IB and Woodson
> has AP.

After a lot of googling it seems there are lots of articles from 2003 when they opened all those elemntary schools. People came out of Westbrier/MarshallIB into Colvin Run/Mclean AP. They would have been part of the Westbrier neighbors of the Madison Island. So now I discover South Lakes was also nearby.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 16, 2008 11:19AM

marshall to mclean move Wrote:
> Outsider Wrote:
> > ..."Popes Head Road" students attended Oak View Elementary
> > which is literally across the street from Robinson. To
> > get to Woodson they drive north on 123 past
> > Robinson then east on Braddock, again past
> > Robinson, to get to Woodson. Robinson has
> > plenty of space for these students.
> >
> > ... If the Popes Head Road people wanted out of Fairfax,
> > why didn't they fight to get into Robinson? What
> > is the difference between Woodson and Robinson?
> >
> > One major difference: Robinson has IB and Woodson
> > has AP.
>
> ... People came out of
> Westbrier/MarshallIB into Colvin Run/Mclean AP.
> They would have been part of the Westbrier
> neighbors of the Madison Island. So now I
> discover South Lakes was also nearby.

Is the point of both the above posters that the county has a history of communities fighting to get into AP schools instead of IB? And the School Board voting for such moves even when space was available in adjacent and under-enrolled IB schools?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Woodson ()
Date: February 16, 2008 11:26AM

It's not just the Pope's Head area going to Woodson but also the development on Clara Barton and Ox and also the FFXSTA development on the outside corner of Ox and FFXCOPkwy. They have been going to Woodson instead of Robinson long before IB was an issue.

A lot of people DON'T want a secondary school as opposed to a separate middle school and high school. That's partly the reason why no Woodsonites are ever considered for Lake Braddock even thought Woodson is overcapacity and Lake Braddock is under. They are both AP schools. The actual location of Lake Braddock is on the northern border of it's boundaries. It would be easy enough to redistrict some of the Woodson kids to LB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Almost Done with FCPS ()
Date: February 16, 2008 11:55AM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Almost Done with FCPS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Baffled Wrote:
> > >
> > > With the boundary phase in process, if the RD
> > goes
> > > through, redistricted kids who are
> pupil-placed
> > > out can ride with their older high school
> > > neighbors (under the grandfather clause). It
> > > would be absolutely ridiculous if the
> > redistricted
> > > kids who are granted pupil placment cannot
> ride
> > > the bus with the grandfathered older students
> > to
> > > their "old" schools.
> >
> >
> > It would be absolutely ridiculous, but I bet
> it's
> > true. My daughter has been pupil-placed for 3
> > years. Each year the approval letter has told
> us
> > that she can't ride a bus due to "insurance"
> > issues. Mom drove her to school every day her
> > sophomore year. Fortunately, (a) she got a
> > parking pass both junior and senior years, and
> (b)
> > we were able to afford a car for her to drive
> to
> > school.
>
> Does the bus come through your neighborhood and
> take kids to your daughter's school? Presumably
> it's your neighborhood school if there are local
> bus stops. If so, why would you have to pupil
> place your daughter? If the bus doesn't already
> come to your neighborhood, because you are placing
> her into a school not in your neighborhood, it's a
> moot point, of course you would have to provide
> transportation.
>
> In the case of redistricting, buses will be in the
> neighborhood, taking the grandfathered kids to
> school. I doubt the bus drivers have any idea who
> belongs on the bus and who doesn't. They just pick
> up the kids at the bus stop. Don't they? I admit
> that I don't know personally since both of my sons
> always got a ride to their high schools with older
> kids in the neighborhood until they could drive
> themselves to school.

We are right on the border. Bus stops serving the different high schools are within walking distance of each other. It's not a matter of the availability of the bus, it's a matter of school policy that pupil-placed students can't ride the bus. Since this whole process has demonstrated the caring attitude of the SB members toward affected students, maybe they'll change the policy for pupil-placed younger siblings of grandfathered students. Then again, maybe pigs will fly.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 16, 2008 12:12PM

Woodson Wrote:
> It's not just the Pope's Head area going to
> Woodson but also the development on Clara Barton
> and Ox and also the FFXSTA development on the
> outside corner of Ox and FFXCOPkwy. They have
> been going to Woodson instead of Robinson long
> before IB was an issue.
>
> A lot of people DON'T want a secondary school as
> opposed to a separate middle school and high
> school. That's partly the reason why no
> Woodsonites are ever considered for Lake Braddock
> even thought Woodson is overcapacity and Lake
> Braddock is under. They are both AP schools. The
> actual location of Lake Braddock is on the
> northern border of it's boundaries. It would be
> easy enough to redistrict some of the Woodson kids
> to LB.

------
I haven't noticed your posts before, Woodson. I've been hoping someone from your school would show up on this "high school redistricting" forum.

I see where the Woodson building is on the map, on 236 and at the southeast corner of Fairfax City.

Since we have to leave Fairfax City out of the equation, it would appear the "natural" Woodson boundaries would be 50 to the north, the beltway to the east, Braddock Road to the south, and 123 to the west.

Looking at the projections, Lake Braddock is projected to have lots of space in 2012 and is adjacent to three overcrowded schools.
- Seems like Annandale could send that little hook at the top to Falls Church. Both are AP high schools.
- Seems like South County SS could send fifty kids per grade (200 high school and 100 middle school) to Lake Braddock. They are both AP and both secondary schools.
- And it seems like all of current Woodson that is west of 123 to Robinson, (including that odd little island that is completely surrounded by Robinson territory) could be redistricted to Robinson. The "west of 123" students all drive past Robinson to get to Woodson, don't they? And all attend Oak View Elementary, which as Outsider mentioned "is literally across the street from Robinson"?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 16, 2008 01:02PM

Anybody else check out how the McNair addition to Herndon affects in demographicss in options 11b/12? It reduces ESOL and FRL percentages. The raw numbers seem to be 74 kids from there in 2012, with 6 ESOL and 6 FRL (doesn't say if some or all are both of these). That's about 8% for each metric. Tell me again why these kids are so undesirable for South Lakes?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 16, 2008 01:27PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
> ... the McNair addition ...
> raw numbers seem to be 74 kids from there in 2012,
> with 6 ESOL and 6 FRL ... Tell me again why these kids are so
> undesirable for South Lakes?

I think I understand what you are trying to say, OP, but with so few children some members of this forum are getting too close to identifying specific individuals by their parents' economic and/or linguistic status. I plead again for everyone to stop implying some children are "undesirable" just because they might require some special services.

(An exception might be granted to "students within the disciplinary system" but I don't see them counted anywhere in any of these statistics.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:03PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody else check out how the McNair addition to
> Herndon affects in demographicss in options
> 11b/12? It reduces ESOL and FRL percentages. The
> raw numbers seem to be 74 kids from there in 2012,
> with 6 ESOL and 6 FRL (doesn't say if some or all
> are both of these). That's about 8% for each
> metric. Tell me again why these kids are so
> undesirable for South Lakes?

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?paper=66&cat=104&article=93230

The link is about a single family home that goes to Herndon elementary and Herndon middle and high school. Some of McNair is oddly placed and between Herndon elementary and Hutchison- maybe some stuff in the Alabama Ave area.

So Mcnair has nice new homes plus other areas and I guess older Herndon areas have a lot more problems with non-permit work [unsafe conditions], overcrowding etc than the Reston Cluster and RA area properties. Also remeber Fairfax County did not or does not change out tenants as their income increases [was a Washington Post article].

Seems that most of the FRPM Mcnair students are already at Herndon. I don't know.
Herndon has trailers yet shows as under capcity so it's a mystery. Don't the Board of Supervisors ever read the FCPS CIP and notice that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:23PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody else check out how the McNair addition to
> Herndon affects in demographicss in options
> 11b/12? It reduces ESOL and FRL percentages. The
> raw numbers seem to be 74 kids from there in 2012,
> with 6 ESOL and 6 FRL (doesn't say if some or all
> are both of these). That's about 8% for each
> metric. Tell me again why these kids are so
> undesirable for South Lakes?

Two possible answers:

1) only a small portion of McNair is being added to HHS in Option 11b and 12 and its a portion with a gated townhouse subdivision among a few garden apts. [but there are a couple of multi-family projects in the pipeline for that area, so the 2013 numbers will probably be higher by a dozen kids or two]

2) the South Lakes Boundary Study Group harridans were obsessed with avoiding any increase in raw number of FRL, not just a reduction in SL's FRL percentage. Talk about your narcissistic snobbery, wow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2008 02:24PM by Thomas More.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ladedah ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:26PM

Wow and to think people who reasearch so much would have a clue of what actually goes on huh? The obvious problem here is a generation gap. I'm sorry but this isn't the 70's, or 80's or whatever decade you grew up in. It's called the twenty-first century and unfortunatly it's a lot different then that of the time period in which most of you I'm guessing grew up in. Havn't any of you noticed that all the statistics you feel so proud in showing off, all your excel graphs and bogus formulas arean't doing anything? You guys have made up so much stuff and presented so much stuff that no ones listening anymore. Present something factual for once that somebody might be able to name as a "credible" scource and you might capture some attention. Because simply complaining about Stu isn't going to take you anywhere, and simply undermining the students and staff at South Lakes doesn't do jack either. If I were you I'd take a hint from those at South Lakes because obviously they know how to hold their composure and stay calm. Those students and parents have proved that their school is in fact very spirited, has very successful alumni and students currently attending, and a promising future in athletics if all goes as said with the redistricting. I don't think the school board ever meant to pit neighborhood against neighborhood with this redistricting, it's simply what you guys have turned it into. They only meant to fix the statistics and numbers that are off the walls and give all those who pay taxes in Fairfax County the assurance that their child will recieve equal oppurtunities as those who attend other schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Thomas More ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:26PM

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some of McNair is oddly placed and
> between Herndon elementary and Hutchison- maybe
> some stuff in the Alabama Ave area.

Correct.

> Seems that most of the FRPM Mcnair students are
> already at Herndon.

Exactly

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: hold your composure ()
Date: February 16, 2008 02:59PM

ladedah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Present
> something factual for once that somebody might be
> able to name as a "credible" scource and you might
> capture some attention

Certainly the figures I've seen have all been from FCPS and state sources - you don't need to make them up - they're online, admittedly not always in a form that makes comparison quick or easy


> If I were you I'd
> take a hint from those at South Lakes because
> obviously they know how to hold their composure
> and stay calm.


of course, like the SLHS teachers at the hearings who accused anyone who opposes RD as racist? (just check back through the MP3's

> I don't think the school board ever meant to pit neighborhood against
> neighborhood with this redistricting

Then its a startling coincidence that you couldn't have designed a scheme which would have had a more dramatic effect - scare thousands of families and encourage them to support the plan you always wanted and swamp the families actually affected - brilliant, even if accidentally brilliant

>They only meant to fix the
> statistics and numbers that are off the walls

The only figures off the wall are:

- 40% higher staff:student ratios than neighboring schools
- a huge investment in refurb
- very poor performance at SOL and SAT including substantial performance gaps for all ethic minority and at risk groups


I can see why you criticize people who look at the figures

Many posters have made it clear - fix the academic performance and people will bang on your door

Its the coercion that really puts peoples backs up - but we love your calm and composure

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 16, 2008 03:29PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody else check out how the McNair addition to
> Herndon affects in demographicss in options
> 11b/12? It reduces ESOL and FRL percentages. The
> raw numbers seem to be 74 kids from there in 2012,
> with 6 ESOL and 6 FRL (doesn't say if some or all
> are both of these). That's about 8% for each
> metric. Tell me again why these kids are so
> undesirable for South Lakes?

Oakton Parent,

You have correctly analyzed the ESOL and FRM numbers from our northeast quadrant, which is of course a subset of the whole of McNair which attends Westfield. This quadrant is overwhelmingly apartments, condominiums, townhouses, and a handful of detached houses which are no more than 3-4 meters apart from each other. Oh, and by the way, they are filled with excellent students (I'm guessing you already suspected this).

Anyway, I find it appalling that the School Board members who conceived this partition, know already that we are going to be split in order to create the Coppermine ES district. Splitting neighborhoods in general has proven to contradict the SB's criteria, and has rightly gained much opposition. But cutting us up into three pieces simultaneously is purposely working in the opposite direction of good intentions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: in3 ()
Date: February 16, 2008 03:39PM

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Anybody else check out how the McNair addition
> to
> > Herndon affects in demographicss in options
> > 11b/12? It reduces ESOL and FRL percentages.
> The
> > raw numbers seem to be 74 kids from there in
> 2012,
> > with 6 ESOL and 6 FRL (doesn't say if some or
> all
> > are both of these). That's about 8% for each
> > metric. Tell me again why these kids are so
> > undesirable for South Lakes?
>
> Oakton Parent,
>
> You have correctly analyzed the ESOL and FRM
> numbers from our northeast quadrant, which is of
> course a subset of the whole of McNair which
> attends Westfield. This quadrant is overwhelmingly
> apartments, condominiums, townhouses, and a
> handful of detached houses which are no more than
> 3-4 meters apart from each other. Oh, and by the
> way, they are filled with excellent students (I'm
> guessing you already suspected this).
>
> Anyway, I find it appalling that the School Board
> members who conceived this partition, know already
> that we are going to be split in order to create
> the Coppermine ES district. Splitting
> neighborhoods in general has proven to contradict
> the SB's criteria, and has rightly gained much
> opposition. But cutting us up into three pieces
> simultaneously is purposely working in the
> opposite direction of good intentions.


But it is ok that they do this to Floris, I guess.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: need to know ()
Date: February 16, 2008 03:48PM

Is Stu putting all this time in on the school board project on his own time or is he taking leave from his real job at the department of Justice? There have been quite a few meetings that have taken place during what would seem like normal DoJ business hours (9am-530pm) that Stu has been at. Was he on leave?? There have also been quite a few emails with times indicating when they were sent again it seems like normal business hours.

Maybe the members of the board are entitled to time to work on SB issues while at work or allowed time off for SB work I am not sure of the rules. Does anyone know?

Thanks

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: v ()
Date: February 16, 2008 04:13PM

need to know Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is Stu putting all this time in on the school
> board project on his own time or is he taking
> leave from his real job at the department of
> Justice? There have been quite a few meetings
> that have taken place during what would seem like
> normal DoJ business hours (9am-530pm) that Stu has
> been at. Was he on leave?? There have also been
> quite a few emails with times indicating when they
> were sent again it seems like normal business
> hours.
>
> Maybe the members of the board are entitled to
> time to work on SB issues while at work or allowed
> time off for SB work I am not sure of the rules.
> Does anyone know?
>
> Thanks


If it is a Federal job, they must take leave.

Also, Thomas More...what is FFT?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: FACTS ()
Date: February 16, 2008 04:31PM

HE WOULD HAVE TO TAKE LEAVE.

DO YOU HAVE ANY OF THE EMAILS? ARE THEY FROM HIS DOJ EMAIL ADDRESS?

IF SO, HE IS USING DOJ EQUIPMENT, ON DOJ TIME AND USING DOJ EMAIL ADDRESS.

THE ABOVE WOULD BE A CLEAR VIOLATION OF GOVERNMENT RULES.

GET THE SOB.

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