Wow, stop checking this thread for a week and see what happens! I had no idea we were back to Chantilly.

I do have a question for my fellow Navy district parents ... if the drive times/locations were equal, would you be fighting so hard to keep the kids at Chantilly? Oakton is slightly better academically, is it not?

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d62d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/1bb697c5809605b88525732b006474b7?OpenDocument

has anyone seen this?

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen asks:
> >
> > "Any odds taken on Crossfield being back in the
> > mix? They dragged McNair and Oak Hill back"
> >
> > Crossfield wasn't involved in any of the
> previous
> > scenarios, despite the location of the school
> > being close enough to South Lakes to make the
> > SLPTSA salivate at the mention of its name.
> (Plus
> > the "split feeder" thing, that currently is like
> a
> > 95:5 percent split, so not much of a split in
> > practice.) Three problems with trying to take
> on
> > Crossfield..
> >
> > 1. If you take all or most of Crossfield, you
> > also have to take Fox Mill or you create an
> > island. Crossfield + Fox Mill combined are too
> > large to fit.
> >
> > 2. Most of the people in Crossfield live way
> at
> > the western edge of the district, so if you
> split
> > it at (say) West Ox, you don't get very many
> kids,
> > and you've antagized people without diluting
> the
> > demographics as much as Stu would like to.
> >
> > 3. It's an Oakton school, so moving people
> from
> > there doesn't help reduce enrollment at
> Chantilly
> > or Westfield, and we've already seen that there
> is
> > no appetite to move Chantilly people to Oakton.
>
> >
> > So...while strange things have happened
> already,
> > this is a low probability scenario. Apologies
> to
> > the salivating ones. Be content with Fox Mill,
> > who will be missed at Oakton.
>
>
> Be content about Fox Mill? There are way too many
> p'ssed off parents from that area. No doubt there
> will be pupil placements out of SL to Oakton from
> that area.

Well, it is kinda more like "Fox Mill its nice to know ya, but if you aren't taking Crossfield's in this study than it would be us, so thanks for helping out." Don't get all warm and mushy about the island excuse. The county doesn't care about the islands, since in the latest they have created quite a few new ones.

Redo

Laffled Wrote:
-
> Well, it is kinda more like "Fox Mill its nice to
> know ya, but if the SB isn't taking Fox Mill in
> this study than it would be us, so thanks for
> helping out." Don't get all warm and mushy about
> the island excuse. The county doesn't care about
> the islands, since in the latest they have created
> quite a few new ones.

this has stu at his finest lawyering tactics

nogoforme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d6
> 2d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/1bb697c5809605b8852
> 5732b006474b7?OpenDocument
>
> has anyone seen this?


this is stu... at his finest lawyering techniques?

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No one has ever answered the following
> question:
>
> I'll take a stab at a couple.
>
> > Why is it that this boundary process is all of
> a
> > sudden "flawed" with THIS boundary change, when
> > there was no objection at all to the very same
> > official process when it involved moving kids
> from
> > Franklin Middle and Chantilly High to Carson
> > Middle and Westfield High?
>
> 1. Carson MS and Westfield HS started with a clean
> slate, where folks could easily imagine having
> control over their destinies.
>
> 2. There probably was no argument over an IB vs.
> AP curriculum choice.
>
> > Why now, when it is South Lakes involved?
>
> 1. The word on the street nowadays, albeit
> mistakenly, is that South Lakes HS is a rough
> place. It's not; and I will be happy to vouch for
> the school.
>
> 2. The IB program is a valid problem for many
> people. Personally, I don't see it being a
> problem, but I will not invalidate another's
> concern, either.
>
>
> >
> > And why did parents agree so quickly to be
> moved
> > from Hayfield to South County, when it opened,
> > under the very same rules?
>
> Haven't studied that one, so cannot answer.
>
> > And why didn't Aldrin and Armstrong parents
> voice
> > overwhelming discontent with the process when
> they
> > were districted to Herndon instead of South
> Lakes
> > (the original plan for Aldrin)?
>
> Haven't studied that one, so cannot answer that
> one either.
> >
> > Curiouser and curiouser....
>
> Well, I tackled fifty percent of them. Someone
> else please indulge the fair Mr. Achievement with
> the last two.
>
> Thank you.

Mr A-
People moved from Hayfield to South County because they thought the process was valid and the projections were accurate and there wouldn't be overcrowding at South County in spite of the community having accurate numbers.

Nobody except Forum Reader believes FCPS projections anymore

Have no idea about putting the astronauts in the lake


Options: Reply To This Message•Quote This Message
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis (IP Logged)
Date: February 11, 2008 09:05PM


NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So is everyone aware of the new Stu and Kathy
> proposals eliminating Navy and half of Fox Mill as
> well as increasing the Floris numbers?

Sparing Navy would eliminate one contradiction to the SB criteria (decreasing travel time), but splitting Fox Mill will create a new contradiction for a different criterium (eliminating split feeders).

The current scope of this project is forcing the SB into contradictions that just cannot be rationalized, even if they were to somehow justify prioritizing their criteria. Which criterium is most important? Which can withstand contradiction? Does even one contradiction bring down the house? Unfortunately, where one contradiction is eliminated, another is born.


Options: Reply To This Message•Quote This Message
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader (IP Logged)
Date: February 11, 2008 09:06PM


Achievement Wrote:
> ... They have the very same schedule
> flexibility and course offering problems South
> Lakes does. The school board knows this. The
> situation here is that there is a well-defined and
> geographically described boundary change that
> could address the issues with the schools involved
> now, with very little disruption (especially
> compared with what has happened in other RDs in
> other pyramids.)
>
> ... The focus has been on this pyramid in this
> boundary study. One cannot conjure up comparisons
> with other schools -- and their unique
> demographics and pyramid "flavors" -- and try to
> compare those apples with this orange. ...

1. Other redistrictings have had a clearly defined purpose, generally to open a new school. The "reason" for this one keeps changing.

2. If the reason is course selection, if SLHS wants the same curriculum as is found in AP schools, then get rid of IB.

3. If we are all one community, why aren't RD supporters pushing to RD the entire County to achieve that 1,700 minimum? Why do supporters of this redistricting proposal ignore the situations at other schools, yet expect the rest of us to disrupt our lives to add some possible, not clearly defined benefit to theirs?


Options: Reply To This Message•Quote This Message
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled (IP Logged)
Date: February 11, 2008 09:09PM


Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NavyGetsOut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So is everyone aware of the new Stu and Kathy
> > proposals eliminating Navy and half of Fox Mill
> as
> > well as increasing the Floris numbers?
>
> Sparing Navy would eliminate one contradiction to
> the SB criteria (decreasing travel time), but
> splitting Fox Mill will create a new contradiction
> for a different criterium (eliminating split
> feeders).
>
> The current scope of this project is forcing the
> SB into contradictions that just cannot be
> rationalized, even if they were to somehow justify
> prioritizing their criteria. Which criterium is
> most important? Which can withstand contradiction?
> Does even one contradiction bring down the house?
> Unfortunately, where one contradiction is
> eliminated, another is born.


That is why I said "Holy crap".


Options: Reply To This Message•Quote This Message
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis (IP Logged)
Date: February 11, 2008 09:14PM


The only way to rationally backfill Oakton HS if Fox Mill were to go to South Lakes, is to increase the scope and move West Flint Hill ES island from Madison to Oakton. That would comply with the current criteria. Can anyone say "1984"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2008 09:16PM by Berdhuis.

Why stop the whole thing is not option? The county said SB didn't provide such option. Why S&K is so determined?

> All of these arguments fit the Floris crowd
> especially when you compare the Floris/McNair
> locations. But it seems Crossfield is more
> special to the school board than Floris (which has
> become the staging area for all of the west
> county's capacity fixes).


Is Crossfield more special or just closer to a school that needs kids?

You are special because you meet their cherry pick standard. Not trying to throw anyone on the bus, but isn't it insane to drag so many families, communities into this? The only saving grace is stop the RD, the madness, the plotted options hoping communities fighting communities.

With liberal pupil placement, what on earth this RD will gain?

Stu won't be a lawyer for much longer......

DOJ and MN bar inquiries, anyone?



nogoforme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> this has stu at his finest lawyering tactics

Crossfield Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > All of these arguments fit the Floris crowd
> > especially when you compare the Floris/McNair
> > locations. But it seems Crossfield is more
> > special to the school board than Floris (which
> has
> > become the staging area for all of the west
> > county's capacity fixes).
>
>
> Is Crossfield more special or just closer to a
> school that needs kids?

ah, yeah, they are closer to South Lakes

yeah
But Crossfield goes to Oakton which is underenrolled, take Crossfield and Oakton will have 1300 kids. Nobody is left to backfill the school now that they are leaving Navy intact. They should leave Fox Mill and Crossfield as is. Oakton is a top 100 school and NOT OVERCAPACITY.

They should just stop, period.

THE FUTURE GROWTH OF WESTFIELD HIGH WILL COME FROM THE UNDEVELOPED LAND NORTH AND SOUTH OF FRYING PAN AT HW 28. WESTFIELD WILL AGAIN BE AT 3000 STUDENTS IN 5 YEARS EVEN WITHOUT MCNAIR AND FLORIS.

As a supporter of the stop rd movement. It gets under my skin to see someone try to throw another under the bus. The unity we have shown has taken us a lot further than if we conducted a free for all. I assure you that the SB has suffered because of our unity.

IF somebody loses in the end, we all suffer. But, there will be more concessions and a louder voice since we stood as one voice. Not a lot to hang your hat on but at least we fought with character.

Thanks for coming out of the woodwork. So you don't want to send your kid to a school that has a few Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, or poor kids scoring an AVERAGE of few points lower on the HOLY SATs than your oh-so-privileged and excellent and perfect and probably white kid? And these scores equal FAILING to you?? The truth comes out. You are truly sick.

stephanie's new rant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephanie - you clearly don't get it
>
> Going through your points 1 by 1
>
> 1. 'Bright students at SLHS'
> no-one has ever disputed this BUT the issue is
> whether the educational environment is adequate to
> support either them or any other part of the
> curve
>
> for example compare SAT deficit at SLHS compared
> to Madison
>
> Asian -192 points
> Black -88 points
> Hispanic - 19 points
>
> economically disadvantaged -73 points
> limited english - 168 points
> disabilities - 153 points
>
> SLHS is failing every group (perhaps excluding IB
> diploma students)
>
> 2. 'Redistricting is needed'
>
> No - south lakes does not have an enrolement
> problem and its programmatic problem, although
> important, is secondary - at the root is a
> PERFORMANCE problem
>
> Look at SOL failure rates at SLHS vs Madison
>
> Biology 6x
> chemistry 3x
> earth science 6x
> english reading 4x
> english writing 5x
> VA-US history 9x
>
> Redistricting is designed to mask, not fix the
> fundamental performance issue
>
> That's why parents don't want their kids to be
> send to SLHS as political pawns
>
> 3. 'Nothing is guaranteed'
>
> Parents expectation of high quality education is
> guarenteed - that's what we expect in return for
> high taxes
>
> Due process is guaranteed - not arbitrary and
> capricious behavior like the current flailing RD
>
> If SLHS set its stall out to attract students it
> might do okay - but coercing parents into leaving
> their existing community just because you think
> they should - well that's guaranteed to cause a
> revolt
>
> ---------
>
> your rant "The only thing your mere cries and
> whines tell us on the supporting side is'
>
> A. 'no faith in our children'
>
> What a stupid comment. our responsibility is to
> give our children the best educational environment
> we can, one where the community believes in
> education and with a proven track record of
> performance - and the let them thrive
>
> You seem to be advocating that educational
> environment doesn't matter - ask Harvard about
> that
>
> It does matter, it matters a lot - not only that,
> its what the parents who are being annexed believe
> and in a democracy, that's what counts
>
>
> B. 'we really only care about ourselves'
>
> we really object to being ripped from the school
> communities to which we belong - whose success is
> not some random fact, but a result of our
> involvement in those communities and the similar
> activities of our neighbors. Many chose they're
> homes based on the social values of the local
> community, including their involvement in the
> sucess of their community schools
>
> We have two primary responsibilities:
>
> - to our children to ensure that they have the
> best educational environment and opportunities
>
> - to our wider community through our taxes
>
> SLHS takes a disproportionate share of educational
> tax dollars
>
> Why, when the staff-student ratio is 40% higher
> than at Madison, is the school not delivering
> educational excellence?
>
> You have have disproportionate staffing, a lovely
> new refit and a chance for a fresh start.
>
> Why not fix the performance, show that you can
> perform at county standards or above, attract
> parents to send their chidren, perhaps to an IB
> magnet
>
> ... and stop acting like spoiled playground
> bullies
>
>
> Why is this all about you? What about the SB's
> responsibilities to us.

Didn't the county say condos and apartments don't yield much high school students? Or are they expecting the airport and industrial zones will help boost enrollment as well? Wait a second, does the low enrollment projection only apply to SLHS?

Where do you see the projection WFH will be at 3000 within 5 years? Are you saying the county is wrong again, or are you just trying to help K&S?

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a supporter of the stop rd movement. It gets
> under my skin to see someone try to throw another
> under the bus. The unity we have shown has taken
> us a lot further than if we conducted a free for
> all. I assure you that the SB has suffered because
> of our unity.
>
> IF somebody loses in the end, we all suffer. But,
> there will be more concessions and a louder voice
> since we stood as one voice. Not a lot to hang
> your hat on but at least we fought with character.

True, except, some have enjoyed a far more comfortable unity than others and if you don't think there were folks throwing Floris under the bus, than you are disillusioned. This of course at the sake of many others who are comfortably unified. There has never been a community that has had to fight so hard to plead for some type of stabilty for a period of 5 or more years as the Floris community. So when the rest of you who are comfortably unified want to come over and help dig the trenches then we will all hip-hip hooray with you. Then, too, Floris will believe that we all suffered.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is it true that 9th and 10th grade honors
> courses
> > are being eliminated at AP schools?
>
> No. 11/12 Grade Honors are.
>
> Given that they are eliminating the middle level
> at AP schools, the real question ought to be -
> just what is the justification for SL and HL in
> the same subjects as regular at IB schools?


They are eliminating mid-level classes at AP schools for 11th and 12th grade? These would probably be equivalent to SL classes at an IB school, which they cannot eliminate without taking the whole IB program down. Does this mean that IB may be better if you want to have mid-level classes?

Any IB/AP experts, please answer. Thank you!

I totally agree, somebody will live on airport runway???

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't the county say condos and apartments don't
> yield much high school students? Or are they
> expecting the airport and industrial zones will
> help boost enrollment as well? Wait a second, does
> the low enrollment projection only apply to SLHS?
>
> Where do you see the projection WFH will be at
> 3000 within 5 years? Are you saying the county is
> wrong again, or are you just trying to help K&S?

PreJudgement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for coming out of the woodwork. So you
> don't want to send your kid to a school that has a
> few Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, or poor kids
> scoring an AVERAGE of few points lower on the HOLY
> SATs than your oh-so-privileged and excellent and
> perfect and probably white kid? And these scores
> equal FAILING to you?? The truth comes out. You
> are truly sick.

Not true my good man. We don't mind sending our kids to school with asians at all, very good with the math and science, you see.

Also they are most helpful with this RD business as they can say and write things like,"South Lakes no good underperform school" without fear of retribution by those dreadful liberals because if they did we could attack them for being insensitive to their language and culture.

My 10th-grader just signed up for Pre-Calculus Honors and Physics Honors for next school year (11th). I just went to Curriculum night on Tues. and the info was on the choice to take AP and Honors classes for next year. Absolutely not discussed was dropping honors classes for junior/senior year. Yes, there are tons more choices for AP due to the accumulation of the pre-requisites for the AP classes, but still plenty of honors classes.

Where does it say that FCPS is doing away with Honors classes? Is it on the FCPS website somewhere?

I am referring to the Oak Hill Community, not Herndon.
I don't understand your rationale for shelving your character. We all need to fight but if I take a bullit in the gut I wouldn't with the same of others.I also don't understand your statement of lack of stability for 5 years. What has happened to since 2002? We all were redistricted to Carson weren't we.

CHS Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My 10th-grader just signed up for Pre-Calculus
> Honors and Physics Honors for next school year
> (11th). I just went to Curriculum night on Tues.
> and the info was on the choice to take AP and
> Honors classes for next year. Absolutely not
> discussed was dropping honors classes for
> junior/senior year. Yes, there are tons more
> choices for AP due to the accumulation of the
> pre-requisites for the AP classes, but still
> plenty of honors classes.
>
> Where does it say that FCPS is doing away with
> Honors classes? Is it on the FCPS website
> somewhere?


Washington Post has had some info on this. Under site based management some have it and some don't. It's not a function of school size just of the quality of the administrators. Schools should be standarized. Hayfield was so bad it didn't even have algrbra 1 for middle schoolers until an administration chnage.

South Lakes shouldn't complain - after grade 10 most schools only have AP or reg and it seems they have reg, SL, HL. Is there regualr?

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a supporter of the stop rd movement. It gets
> under my skin to see someone try to throw another
> under the bus. The unity we have shown has taken
> us a lot further than if we conducted a free for
> all. I assure you that the SB has suffered because
> of our unity.
>
>

I'm with you. For the most part we've all stuck behind each other as we know that none of these proposals make sense.

I'm a little upset with Herndon though, although this doesn't apply to everyone obviously.

Accusing people of being racist for not wanting to send their kids to underperforming, IB-and-no-AP SLHS is so tired. No one has bought that spin in 207 pages, so give it up already. Find a new approach. The only racists here are the ones who see any white parent as "afraid of minorities." Ridiculous.

Re: Floris vs. Crossfield. I'm not in favor of the redistricting at all, but to be fair,

1. Floris goes to Westfield, so moving it someplace else directly helps reduce enrollment at Westfield, which Kathy wants to do. Moving Crossfield doesn't do that. Based on the study itself, the changes that are most directly "beneficial" are ones that move people from Westfield to South Lakes, since that accomplishes two goals right there. That's why Floris is in this. I think it sucks, but there you do...the rules were made to choose exactly this.

2. As far as I can tell, the new proposals do not create any islands, where an island is defined as part of a boundary that is completely disconnected from another part of the boundary. If you took Crossfield to South Lakes and leave Fox Mill at Oakton, Fox Mill becomes an island in every sense of the word. If you move Floris to South Lakes, it's not an island, as it connects to the rest of the South Lakes district, and it doesn't create any islands with the part left behind. None of option 5, 11a or 12 create any island as far as I can determine from the maps...all school attendance areas are continuous single territories.

What is the school board limiting speakers at the next hearing to only those areas that are impacted by those 2 proposals? What does this mean between the lines?

?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> Washington Post has had some info on this. Under
> site based management some have it and some don't.
> It's not a function of school size just of the
> quality of the administrators. Schools should be
> standarized. Hayfield was so bad it didn't even
> have algrbra 1 for middle schoolers until an
> administration chnage.
>
> South Lakes shouldn't complain - after grade 10
> most schools only have AP or reg and it seems they
> have reg, SL, HL. Is there regualr?


So, it sounds like they are eliminating "honors" levels in 11th and 12th grade for at least some AP schools.

And yes, if this is the case, it would seem that IB schools have an advantage in that the SL courses cannot be eliminated, so there are regular, SL, and HL courses.

Anyone know more?

Mr. Tistadt


At the western Fairfax County boundary meetings at Jackson ES, people have indicated that there have been as many as ten boundary studies in that area.


What is the truth?


How many boundary studies have taken place in western Fairfax County over the last ten years. How do you report each one? Schools?

FYI



FCPS has opened 12 schools between 1998 and 2006 – three of which included the Floris area in the scope of study – Carson MS in 1998; Westfield HS in 2001, McNair ES in 2001 – of these, the Floris attendance area was impacted by the opening of Carson and Westfield. In addition, there was also a boundary study which moved a small portion of Floris to Fox Mill in 1998.



There were program changes impacting Floris but these are not boundary shifts. The program changes were the transfer of Japanese. Partial immersion programs form Floris to Fox Mill which began in 2006 with first grade; school based GT center in Floris in 2006 and FLES program in Spanish offered at Floris beginning 2006-07 – Dr. Betsy Goodman would be the contact for additional info on program changes in this area.



Attached is a list of boundary studies for the past ten years. Public notice about each study is provided per school board policy and web site information is provided within each cluster as new schools come on line.

School Boundary Changes1997-2007

New School Openings
Carson M.S. 1998
Bull Run E.S. 1999
Fort Belvoir E.S. 1999
Westfield 2000
McNair E.S. 2001
Liberty M.S. 2002
Colin Powell E.S. 2003
Colvin Run E.S. 2003
Island Creek E.S. 2003
Lorton Station E.S. 2003
South County Sec. 2005
Eagle View E.S . 2006

Boundary Studies
Ft. Belvoir from Hayfield Secondary to Whitman M.S. and Mt. Vernon H.S. - 1997
Floris to Fox Mill - 1998
Glen Forest to Parklawn -1999
Fairview from Lanier/Fairfax to Robinson Secondary - 2000
Consolidation of Fairfax City Elementary Schools from four facilities to two - 2000 (included Oak View and Fairfax Villa)
Popes Head Rd. from Lanier/Fairfax to Frost/Woodson – 2002
Fairhill to Mantua - 2003
Daniels Run to Providence - 2004
Lee H.S. to West Springfield H.S. Study - 2006
South County Secondary to Hayfield Secondary - 2007

New Elementary GT Centers
Colvin Run - 2003
Clearview - 2003
Lorton Station -2003
Mosby Woods - 2003
Oak Hill - 2003
Riverside - 2003

GT Center Boundary Changes
Longfellow to Kilmer - 1999
Keene Mill, White Oaks to Sangster - 2002
Haycock to Churchill Road - 2007
Kilmer to Jackson – 2007

PROGRAM CHANGES IMPACTING FLORIS
Transfer Japanese Partial-Immersion program from Floris to Fox Mill  began in 2006 with first grade
School based GT center in Floris 2006-07 for GT Level IV (center eligible)  
FLES program in Spanish offered at Floris beginning 2006-07

Oakton Parent,
About island, can you look at the map and tell me what remaining McNair and the Oak Hill boundary shipped to WFH look like? Yes, on map it doesn't look so, except the boundary they share with Floris has very few students.

About relieving WFH, I'm sick of it. The school has a *permanent* capacity of 3100. It's not very efficient to ship a few hundred student out.

Chantilly is at least qualified as "crowded" on paper, considering the fact it has trailers. If they want to relieve Chantilly, then either Crossfield or Fox Mill need to be moved to SLH.

The best thing here is just STOP.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2008 01:15PM by Floris.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> So, it sounds like they are eliminating "honors"
> levels in 11th and 12th grade for at least some AP
> schools.
>
> And yes, if this is the case, it would seem that
> IB schools have an advantage in that the SL
> courses cannot be eliminated, so there are
> regular, SL, and HL courses.
>
> Anyone know more?

Very informal survey but it looks like there will be NO elimination of Honors classes at Chantilly, Westfield, Oakton, Langley and Madison. We don't know about Herndon. Anybody know? So pretty much all of the schools in the "west" have lots of honors level classes in 11/12th grade.

At one of our meetings, parents coouldn't control their laughter when they read the list of "boundary changes" poor Floris had endured.
Number #12 on your boundary change list was the best "In 2006 school cafeteria replaced tator tots with plain french fries". You guy's are stretching here.

Can you tell me some boundary changes in the past few years in the area that doesn't have Floris involved?

Hornetsting, which one of the following boundary change looks like joke to you?

• 1998 – Floris Elementary / Fox Mill Elementary
• 1999 – Franklin Middle School / Rachel Carson Middle School
• 2000 – Oakton HS / Westfield HS
• 2001 – Floris Elementary / McNair Elementary
• 2007 – West County Boundary Study (Westfield / South Lakes)
• 2008 – Coppermine / Floris / McNair Elementary

Floris has to defend themselves every time. Is it fair to say it's too much? And this RD, why Floris again?

i understand what you mean Floris. However, "island" refers only to the actual attendance boundary not whether the parts of the boundary are connected via residential land. You also don't get an island just because you drive out of a boundary on the way the school as the bus goes, which I have heard some people mention. If e.g. they moved part of Oak Hill to South Lakes, but didn't move Floris, then Oak Hill would be island.

They tried moving Chantilly people to Oakton to reduce the size of Chantilly, but the Navy folks rebelled, though its the same distance the Fox Mill folks go now. Anyway, in that case, the only other place you can send Chantilly people to is Westfield, which means you have to move more people out of Westfield, or (I don't think this has been done yet) to South lakes or Herndon if you create a contiguous path from the top of Oak Hill elemenary school to those places.

College admissions is more competitive than ever, and differences in SAT scores, even minor ones, can make the difference between a kid's application being reviewed or not reviewed.

Who are you to judge parents who want their child to be as competitively positioned as possible for college admissions?

It's not your job to beat parents over the head for making what they deem to be the best decisions for their kids.

It appears to me you are advocating for more white kids to come to SL so that the overall percentages of disadvantaged kids drop, so who are you to get on your high horse? And please don't tell me that it's all because you care about disadvantaged kids getting the best education possible, because if that were the case, the liberals in Reston would've cleaned up Terraset, Dogwood and Lake Anne a long long time ago.



PreJudgement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for coming out of the woodwork. So you
> don't want to send your kid to a school that has a
> few Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, or poor kids
> scoring an AVERAGE of few points lower on the HOLY
> SATs than your oh-so-privileged and excellent and
> perfect and probably white kid? And these scores
> equal FAILING to you?? The truth comes out. You
> are truly sick.

Floris and McNair are ground zero for west county growth. Not your fault but certainly not anyone else's fault either.
I know for a fact there are indiviuals with the Herndon community and also in the Oak Hill community that are not in the "targeted" zones that are still active in trying to stop this RD. You don't have to believe that of course. There are many people throughout the county that are "connected". You might tread lightly with your neighbors in the meantime. Remember, it takes more than Stu and Kathy to pass this vote.

Re: "Very informal survey but it looks like there will be NO elimination of Honors classes at Chantilly, Westfield, Oakton, Langley and Madison. We don't know about Herndon. Anybody know? So pretty much all of the schools in the "west" have lots of honors level classes in 11/12th grade."

SLPP won't give up that easily. She'll be back with more unsubstantiated rumors.

Maybe we should make some up about South Lakes and/or IB?

Here's one...with the new influx of students to South Lakes, it will be harder to make the cheerleading squad or school play. However, the SLPTSA has created a system whereby "true" South Lakes kids, meaning those who went to Reston elementary schools, get preference, vs. "outlying school statistics improvers", oops, sorry, that should have read "new, happy Seahawks". Sort of an affirmative action program. Anyway, that's what I heard.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re: "Very informal survey but it looks like there
> will be NO elimination of Honors classes at
> Chantilly, Westfield, Oakton, Langley and Madison.
> We don't know about Herndon. Anybody know? So
> pretty much all of the schools in the "west" have
> lots of honors level classes in 11/12th grade."
>
> SLPP won't give up that easily. She'll be back
> with more unsubstantiated rumors.
>
> Maybe we should make some up about South Lakes
> and/or IB?
>
> Here's one...with the new influx of students to
> South Lakes, it will be harder to make the
> cheerleading squad or school play. However, the
> SLPTSA has created a system whereby "true" South
> Lakes kids, meaning those who went to Reston
> elementary schools, get preference, vs. "outlying
> school statistics improvers", oops, sorry, that
> should have read "new, happy Seahawks". Sort of
> an affirmative action program. Anyway, that's
> what I heard.



Excuse me, Oakton Parent, from one of the responses, it sounds like this is happening in some AP schools. I'm merely trying to find out if it is true and to what extent. I don't go around spreading unsubstantiated rumors. I never presented it as saying this is true or not. I was looking for info.

Sheesh.

Reality check Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> College admissions is more competitive than ever,
> and differences in SAT scores, even minor ones,
> can make the difference between a kid's
> application being reviewed or not reviewed.
>
>

I understood what you were saying in the rest of your post, but your child's SAT scores won't be affected. It won't matter what HS he/she/they go to, SAT scores are much more reflective of family income, parental education etc. A school's average is just that an average, your child's score is your child's score and it is truly silly to think that score will be affected by the HS the child is in.

Issues of AP versus IB, and issues of distance to school, neighborhoods being split etc., are all reasonable issues to discuss, but to seemingly infer that your child's SAT score will be damaged is truly not correct.

Oakton Parent,
Then scratch the idea of relieve Chantilly, which is hard to do, given its scope, and Westfield, which is NOT over crowded.

Why bother to stick to something with shaky foundation? It's not the right thing to argue who should be RD'd at this time. The SB is again playing neighbours VS neighbours trick.

One more time, I'm trying to stress the importance to STOP this RD.

Floris,
First of all you gave me the watered down list, I expected the one with the tator tots on it. Again, all of these changes are due to growth. The county served your needs with new schools. Are you a victom in those cases?

I will take the McNair/Floris boundary change. If memory serves me right, tractors leveled the houses that existed is the McNair area and then they built apts and townhomes. I may be missing something but you cant' blame the school board for that and the subsequent need for a new elementary. I used to like that area along Greg Roy, too bad they sold out.

After reading some more posts here and after asking TM if there has ever been a formal study on SL before resorting to this RD and the answer was no or not sure, I am quite convinced that fcps has NEVER done a formal study on SL and instead resorted to this RD only to result in lots of fighting over who gets to go there or that high school or that way over there high school. What I don't understand is why fcps or the sb hadnt had the guts to do formal studies (NOT boundary studies) on schools identified with enrollment issues before deciding that maybe a RD would work. Yeah right. It certainly doesn't work well with high school redistrictings!! Also I am tired of hearing racist comments too..those being forced are NOT against racism ..but have a problem being FORCED to a school just to help dilute the school's enrollment problems. I think it would be very wise to stop the RD and assign a task force committee to study SL and come up with solutions. Honestly, does anybody think this RD will really succeed?

About growth, Floris hasn't seen new developments, except a few homes, since 2001. So if you take in Coppermine, you are saying the development outside of Floris nearly a decade later still impact us?

And I haven't mention the Japanese Immerson change and GT centers changes, which do impact a lot of families. What is wrong to ask for stability?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2008 02:08PM by Floris.

SLPP:

I don't mind discussing strengths and weaknesses of schools or programs on the basis of facts.

I do get a bit tired of random rumors and knee-jerk reactions though, and while you're not the worst person for doing this (where is IBVeritas anyway?), you have certainly done this. Even using the "Are Honors classes going away?" topic, you've brought it up half a dozen times, used it as a way to present a possible advantage for IB, and dismissed a number of people who went the extra effort to clear up that this is not happening in any significant way.

Of course, it was WAS true that South Lakes already had a better slate of classes than other schools, I guess the redistricting thing wouldn't be necessary, right?

And I understand that SLHS folks get ticked off when people criticize SLHS academics or safety or "reputation", its not any better for those same people to refuse to listen to people who say e.g. that the AP program works better for them. Its not always right to say "once you understand both programs, you'll agree IB is fine, or even better". There's a pretty good chance IB is not better at all, and is worse for a lot of kids. Even considering SL vs. honors classes...in many cases, SL classes offer all the homework and testing burden of AP classes, while only covering the level of material in an honors class, so students get all of the burden and but less college recognition for the SL class vs. AP. But to even suggest that is to get jumped on by SL people, who will find one statement out of a three page summary that's not 100% accurate and jump on the whole thing as a flawed and biased report.

So...sorry to be a bit short here.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> I understood what you were saying in the rest of
> your post, but your child's SAT scores won't be
> affected. It won't matter what HS he/she/they go
> to, SAT scores are much more reflective of family
> income, parental education etc. A school's
> average is just that an average, your child's
> score is your child's score and it is truly silly
> to think that score will be affected by the HS the
> child is in.
>
> Issues of AP versus IB, and issues of distance to
> school, neighborhoods being split etc., are all
> reasonable issues to discuss, but to seemingly
> infer that your child's SAT score will be damaged
> is truly not correct.

This seems to counter the argument that improved socioeconomic balance will improve South Lakes. Unless you are saying that only higher-performing kids influence lower-performing kids but not the other way around. That seems like a stretch.

Personally, I believe all kids have the potential to influence each other and it depends on the specific situation and kids how it all plays out. In some cases it may be a significnat influence and in some cases not.

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> About growth, Floris hasn't seen new developments,
> except a few homes, since 2001. So if you take in
> Coppermine, you are saying the development outside
> of Floris nearly a decade later still impact us?
>
> And I haven't mention the Japanese Immerson change
> and GT centers changes, which do impact a lot of
> families. What is wrong to ask for stability?

It is a county wide school division but that also means equitable treatment under Federal laws. Japanese Immersion ? How many kids were in that for each grade? Check out this huge CIP document where they actually put Langley in the location of Herndon High for what might have been when that addition initially appeared as a proposed project. Go to the bookmarks and then to public schools and read it all.

2002-2003 was an active long term planning year.
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dmb/archives/FY_2003/2003_Cip.pdf

Floris Wrote:

What is wrong to ask for stability?

Because, Floris, it apparently threatens something in Hornetsting's part of town. Its obvious that this hornet only cares about tater tots, so don't bother with your energy.

No matter how you cut it, it impacts education.

You can say SATs are purely a function of family background, but then what about the SOLs? Are they entirely a function of family background, too? Is that why the scores are lower in Reston?

The bottom line is that teachers teach to the mean in a classroom. Whether it's SATs or SOLs (take your pick), the general ed classes cannot be at the same level as high schools that have feeder schools that have stronger test scores. It's just that simple.

I took up the suggestion to visit SL a number of months ago to go into redistricting with an open mind. I wasn't swayed by the anti-RD rhetoric. Bruce Butler is great. But Bruce Butler can't do clean-up and run around with a pooper scooper to make up for all the other deficiencies in this Pyramid starting in the earlier grades.




AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reality check Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > College admissions is more competitive than
> ever,
> > and differences in SAT scores, even minor ones,
> > can make the difference between a kid's
> > application being reviewed or not reviewed.
> >
> >
>
> I understood what you were saying in the rest of
> your post, but your child's SAT scores won't be
> affected. It won't matter what HS he/she/they go
> to, SAT scores are much more reflective of family
> income, parental education etc. A school's
> average is just that an average, your child's
> score is your child's score and it is truly silly
> to think that score will be affected by the HS the
> child is in.
>
> Issues of AP versus IB, and issues of distance to
> school, neighborhoods being split etc., are all
> reasonable issues to discuss, but to seemingly
> infer that your child's SAT score will be damaged
> is truly not correct.

"How many kids were in that for each grade?"
There used to be one or two JI classes each grade, so over 25%? I haven't looked at the actual data, just give you an idea.

"But Bruce Butler can't do clean-up and run around with a pooper scooper to make up for all the other deficiencies in this Pyramid starting in the earlier grades.
"

Exactly. Fix Hughes or even lower grades, SLHS will see improvement without any RD'd kids.

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do have a question for my fellow Navy district
> parents ... if the drive times/locations were
> equal, would you be fighting so hard to keep the
> kids at Chantilly?

Absolutely!!!!!!!

chs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> navy area parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I do have a question for my fellow Navy
> district
> > parents ... if the drive times/locations were
> > equal, would you be fighting so hard to keep
> the
> > kids at Chantilly?
>
> Absolutely!!!!!!!

Care to elaborate? My kids are young, I don't know both schools intimately ... I know many Navy parents are wanting to stay at CHS, I just don't understand why that is, when scores and rankings are better at Oakton. The "because it's always been that way" argument doesn't mean much to me, so I'm wondering if there's a positive at CHS (other than proximity) I'm overlooking or a negative at Oakton (other than proximity) that I'm missing. I will say that among my neighbors who, like me, have very young kids, there was some excitement about being redistricted to Oakton. So I know it's mostly the parents of older kids who are more familiar with both high schools who are very pro-Chantilly, and I'd like to know why.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Honestly, does anybody think this RD will really
> succeed?


Of course it will.

Floris - split
Foxmill - split
McNair - Split
Oak Hill - Split

Floris - pupil placement
Foxmill - pupil placement
McNair - pupil placement
Oak Hill - pupil placement

Let the madness began. I am not surprised a bit if some of the current SL students pupil place out of SL.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLPP:
>
> I don't mind discussing strengths and weaknesses
> of schools or programs on the basis of facts.
>
> I do get a bit tired of random rumors and
> knee-jerk reactions though, and while you're not
> the worst person for doing this (where is
> IBVeritas anyway?), you have certainly done this.
> Even using the "Are Honors classes going away?"
> topic, you've brought it up half a dozen times,
> used it as a way to present a possible advantage
> for IB, and dismissed a number of people who went
> the extra effort to clear up that this is not
> happening in any significant way.
>
> Of course, it was WAS true that South Lakes
> already had a better slate of classes than other
> schools, I guess the redistricting thing wouldn't
> be necessary, right?
>
> And I understand that SLHS folks get ticked off
> when people criticize SLHS academics or safety or
> "reputation", its not any better for those same
> people to refuse to listen to people who say e.g.
> that the AP program works better for them. Its
> not always right to say "once you understand both
> programs, you'll agree IB is fine, or even
> better". There's a pretty good chance IB is not
> better at all, and is worse for a lot of kids.
> Even considering SL vs. honors classes...in many
> cases, SL classes offer all the homework and
> testing burden of AP classes, while only covering
> the level of material in an honors class, so
> students get all of the burden and but less
> college recognition for the SL class vs. AP. But
> to even suggest that is to get jumped on by SL
> people, who will find one statement out of a three
> page summary that's not 100% accurate and jump on
> the whole thing as a flawed and biased report.
>
> So...sorry to be a bit short here.


Oakton Parent,
I think you are really being unfair to me. Please show me where I "dismissed" anybody. One person said there is no problem in west county based on an "informal survey". This is not by any means conclusive, and does not jibe with what I have heard from a friend at work and this issue is discussed on other forums too. Someone else (??) on here said there WAS a problem in some schools. Did you not read that post? I then stated that there MAY be a problem in SOME schools. Tell me where I am being heavy-handed here. I just don't think I was. I was asking for more information--I never even said whether I preferred AP or IB. I'm actually on the fence about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2008 03:16PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

FCPS began phasing out honors classes for subjects with an AP option about five years ago. This generated many parent complaints in AP high schools, because junior and seniors had to choose between taking too many AP courses or taking some ridiculously easy gen ed courses. It would be like asking South Lakes students to choose between HL courses and non-IB courses.

Theoretically, the IB program gives juniors and seniors the ability to choose from three levels of courses - HL, SL and non-IB. In FCPS, this benefit is reduced by the practice of combining SL and HL courses in some subjects, and not offering either the SL or the HL version of courses in other subjects. In the end, FCPS IB students often end up either sitting in a non-IB class or in an IB class that has everyone who didn't register for the non-IB class.

All students in FCPS would be better off if we returned to the old system, with three levels of non-remedial courses for each subject.


South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:

> They are eliminating mid-level classes at AP
> schools for 11th and 12th grade? These would
> probably be equivalent to SL classes at an IB
> school, which they cannot eliminate without taking
> the whole IB program down. Does this mean that IB
> may be better if you want to have mid-level
> classes?
>
> Any IB/AP experts, please answer. Thank you!

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > navy area parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I do have a question for my fellow Navy
> > district
> > > parents ... if the drive times/locations were
> > > equal, would you be fighting so hard to keep
> > the
> > > kids at Chantilly?
> >
> > Absolutely!!!!!!!
>
> Care to elaborate? My kids are young, I don't
> know both schools intimately ... I know many Navy
> parents are wanting to stay at CHS, I just don't
> understand why that is, when scores and rankings
> are better at Oakton. The "because it's always
> been that way" argument doesn't mean much to me,
> so I'm wondering if there's a positive at CHS
> (other than proximity) I'm overlooking or a
> negative at Oakton (other than proximity) that I'm
> missing. I will say that among my neighbors who,
> like me, have very young kids, there was some
> excitement about being redistricted to Oakton. So
> I know it's mostly the parents of older kids who
> are more familiar with both high schools who are
> very pro-Chantilly, and I'd like to know why.


The main thing is that families become extremily attached to their high schools.
As you can see, even those attending South Lakes are loyal and don't want to leave.
Chantilly, Herndon and Westfield are fine schools. They each have a different flavor. Oakton is a bit more prestigious and scores very high on SAT scores and was recently named a top 100 school within the nation, along with TJ and Langley. Oakton is a bit preppier but the school itself is ugly. Westfield and Chantilly are physically more attractive schools.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS began phasing out honors classes for subjects
> with an AP option about five years ago. This
> generated many parent complaints in AP high
> schools, because junior and seniors had to choose
> between taking too many AP courses or taking some
> ridiculously easy gen ed courses. It would be
> like asking South Lakes students to choose between
> HL courses and non-IB courses.
>
> Theoretically, the IB program gives juniors and
> seniors the ability to choose from three levels of
> courses - HL, SL and non-IB. In FCPS, this
> benefit is reduced by the practice of combining SL
> and HL courses in some subjects, and not offering
> either the SL or the HL version of courses in
> other subjects. In the end, FCPS IB students
> often end up either sitting in a non-IB class or
> in an IB class that has everyone who didn't
> register for the non-IB class.
>
> All students in FCPS would be better off if we
> returned to the old system, with three levels of
> non-remedial courses for each subject.
>
>
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
>
> > They are eliminating mid-level classes at AP
> > schools for 11th and 12th grade? These would
> > probably be equivalent to SL classes at an IB
> > school, which they cannot eliminate without
> taking
> > the whole IB program down. Does this mean that
> IB
> > may be better if you want to have mid-level
> > classes?
> >
> > Any IB/AP experts, please answer. Thank you!



Thank you for your information. Do you know specific schools where this is happening? Does it depend on the administration at each school?

SLPP...there are too many posts to try to police this line by line. I reponded directly to you, and I believe at least one other person concurred before the person making the informal survey.

If you have any specific facts about which courses were eliminated, please itemize them. There are few courses that are uniquely 11th or 12th grade. However, e.g. Oakton offers regular, honors and AP math and sciences.

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > navy area parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I do have a question for my fellow Navy
> > district
> > > parents ... if the drive times/locations were
> > > equal, would you be fighting so hard to keep
> > the
> > > kids at Chantilly?
> >
> > Absolutely!!!!!!!
>
> Care to elaborate? My kids are young, I don't
> know both schools intimately ... I know many Navy
> parents are wanting to stay at CHS, I just don't
> understand why that is, when scores and rankings
> are better at Oakton. The "because it's always
> been that way" argument doesn't mean much to me,
> so I'm wondering if there's a positive at CHS
> (other than proximity) I'm overlooking or a
> negative at Oakton (other than proximity) that I'm
> missing. I will say that among my neighbors who,
> like me, have very young kids, there was some
> excitement about being redistricted to Oakton. So
> I know it's mostly the parents of older kids who
> are more familiar with both high schools who are
> very pro-Chantilly, and I'd like to know why.

I think you have to experience high school with your child before you fully understand the sense of community you build around a school. As you can see in this thread, everyone would love to stay in their current high school whether it is South Lakes, Herndon, Westfield, Chantilly, Oakton or Madison -- no one really wants to move schools. Test scores and rankings are not the whole story. Teachers, administrators, coaches, friends, afterschool activities, sports teams, etc. are all part of the equation. (And please look very carefully at Oaktons scores vs. Chantillys they are not that much different!). Every student has a different experience. Why are you excited about possibly going to Oakton? What experience do you have with the school that makes you want to send your "very young kids" there? Why must there be a negative to one of the schools? Can't they both be good? All I can say to you is how would you answer the following question ... If you had to move from Navy to Waples Mill would you?

PreJudgement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for coming out of the woodwork. So you
> don't want to send your kid to a school that has a
> few Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, or poor kids
> scoring an AVERAGE of few points lower on the HOLY
> SATs than your oh-so-privileged and excellent and
> perfect and probably white kid? And these scores
> equal FAILING to you?? The truth comes out. You
> are truly sick.
>
> stephanie's new rant Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stephanie - you clearly don't get it
> >
> > Going through your points 1 by 1


errr.... I'm confused. How does suggesting that minority and vulnerable groups get a raw deal at SLHS compared to their peers at nearby schools racist?

Funny you claim to know my 'privileged' background - I think you'd be more than suprised.

I take SLHS' SAT scores, SOL fail rates, low rates of SOL advanced passes etc as being failures.

Economically disadvantaged kids scoring an average of greater than 70 points less than their similarly defined peers at other schools is a sign that something serious is happening which needs investigating and fixing not hiding with a poorly thought through RD

Fix issues like that and people will transfer in.

Force people in and you'll just mask the problem

Academic performance is the SOLE purpose of schools, not football, not cheerleading or band - you've got the financial and staff investment to achieve it...

but far easiest to cry racism, throw your toys out of the pram and pick a few neighborhoods you'd like to take over

If South Lakes converts to an AP school, would Fox Mill and Floris Parents willingly send their kids to SL? Answer honestly.

are you sure? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >>
> > I understood what you were saying in the rest
> of
> > your post, but your child's SAT scores won't be
> > affected. It won't matter what HS he/she/they
> go
> > to, SAT scores are much more reflective of
> family
> > income, parental education etc. A school's
> > average is just that an average, your child's
> > score is your child's score and it is truly
> silly
> > to think that score will be affected by the HS
> the
> > child is in.
> >
> > Issues of AP versus IB, and issues of distance
> to
> > school, neighborhoods being split etc., are all
> > reasonable issues to discuss, but to seemingly
> > infer that your child's SAT score will be
> damaged
> > is truly not correct.
>
> This seems to counter the argument that improved
> socioeconomic balance will improve South Lakes.
> Unless you are saying that only higher-performing
> kids influence lower-performing kids but not the
> other way around. That seems like a stretch.
>
> Personally, I believe all kids have the potential
> to influence each other and it depends on the
> specific situation and kids how it all plays out.
> In some cases it may be a significnat influence
> and in some cases not.

Just a quick response from someone who has read way too many education studies at this point ;-) . The research demonstrates that, in fact, higher-performing kids have far more influence on lower-performing kids than the other way around, IF the ratios are balanced. There are differing data on what those ratios are. Too many underperfoming kids, and everyone suffers. But that is not the case in any of the schools in Fairfax. None of the schools has ratios of underperforming kids high enough to thwart achievement in the performing population. What IS the case is that fewer "underperforming" kids in any school helps those very kids.

Thus, it is very likely that your kid, if he or she performs well at his or her current school, is almost absolutely sure to achieve similarly in any other school in the county. The opposite is not true of underachievers, who are likely to perform BETTER (not necessarily worse) at schools where they are a lower percentage of the overall population.

RDNeutral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If South Lakes converts to an AP school, would Fox
> Mill and Floris Parents willingly send their kids
> to SL? Answer honestly.


Yes we would. I asked this yesterday and South Lakes folks shot it down saying they would never give up their IB program.

So the problematic issue we are hearing is only about the IB program. Is this correct?

I am a SL Parent and would support converting to an AP school and I know others would as well.

Do we have some common ground?

RDNeutral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If South Lakes converts to an AP school, would Fox
> Mill and Floris Parents willingly send their kids
> to SL? Answer honestly.


The question should be the other way round. Will SL let go of its' wedded IB program? From what I have heard so far, SL won't let it go. If it was an AP high school, then who knows it could be a different story with the way the RD has been turning out. Many many parents won't forget this RD mess even if SL converts to an AP based school. While we are at this, how long does it take to convert an IB high school to an AP high school? Does anybody know?

As far as I know we have let the board know that this was the stumbling block. They were not willing to listen. You realize IB to AP conversion will not occur overnight. It needs to be planned. My whole point was South Lakes should be ready with a comparable AP program before asking for kids from other communities. I also believe if you convert to AP program you will automatically attract more kids from Reston who are pupil placing out of South Lakes for the same reason.

A compromise could be reached on both sides.

The RD will be probably be approved and there is a lot of bad feelings on both sides of the issue going into the upcoming school year.

Is there a way to resolve the issue amongst a community of passionate parents that only want the best for their children?

I really feel for the families that are effected by re-districting. I know you might not believe me but it's true.

Once the decision is made, is there a way we can work together on a solution instead of continuing to fight?

I welcome all thoughts : )

If there is common ground regarding SLHS implementing AP courses then one huge obstacle might be tackled. The positive point in this is that no freshman take AP and soph's are only allowed to take one AP course. There might be very few exceptions.
There is time for this to happen!

For any SL parents who would like to consider switching to AP,
The school board says it is not hearing from you. Email them.

For my kids, I prefer Chantilly over Oakton. They are math/science kids (although that is not their favorites) and the school has some amazing programs in this area. If you want to see something impressive, go to the Academy and check out the robotics and computer classes. These students are so impressive and they are doing stuff that is at a level where they are rivaling what's going on professionally in this area. They also have a "Girls in Engineering" program. The math scores are better at Oakton but I have kids who already score at the top in math. What is more important for me is what applications opportunities they have in high school. It is really helping to give them a sense of what they might do with their skill set in college and beyond.

As for the language/arts side of things, I can't really say. I assume they are pretty equal or maybe Oakton is a bit better or offers more.

Chantilly is not quite as high income as Oakton and I actually prefer the more "economically diverse" mix. Realizing that most at either school are financially well off, I think the more my kids interact with "working class" people -- the better. I don't want them thinking that they will receive anything financially that they don't earn themselves. But that's just my personal opinion.

Witness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there is common ground regarding SLHS
> implementing AP courses then one huge obstacle
> might be tackled. The positive point in this is
> that no freshman take AP and soph's are only
> allowed to take one AP course. There might be very
> few exceptions.
> There is time for this to happen!


I do not think we are on same page. IB and AP will not co-exist. There is a lot of resistance in Reston to give up IB (and I won't blame them 100%, if my kids was brilliant (top 10%) I would want him to do IB not AP). I think you can only have one or the other. I think SL missed a chance when IB was thrust on them in early 2000.

I forgot to mention that the Chantilly Academy students are from all over FCPS -- including TJ. So no matter what the home school, a student who qualifies for an Academy class or program can enroll. Not sure about transportation though.

So an Oakton student can take the Robotics and Computer Science classes at the Chantilly Academy.

One other thing I wanted to point out, is mistrust against Stu Gibson is all time high. We do not want a couple of Bones thrown our way with regards to a couple of AP courses. That will not work. We deserve a comprehensive AP program comparable to Oakton or Westfields where you are asking warm bodies from. No hard feelings :)

RDNeutral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A compromise could be reached on both sides.
>
> The RD will be probably be approved and there is a
> lot of bad feelings on both sides of the issue
> going into the upcoming school year.
>
> Is there a way to resolve the issue amongst a
> community of passionate parents that only want the
> best for their children?
>
> I really feel for the families that are effected
> by re-districting. I know you might not believe
> me but it's true.
>
> Once the decision is made, is there a way we can
> work together on a solution instead of continuing
> to fight?
>
> I welcome all thoughts : )


Sadly I don't think so where the Madison North community is concerned

The community has been targeted by SLHS PTA, marginalized, ignored by the SB including its own member, had Herndon residents turn up at meetings with the aim of throwing them under the bus, had SLHS teachers at hearings call anyone who questions coercive redistricting racist and been vilified for not wanting to be forcably annexed into Reston from their own communities.

Why has the community been targeted at elementary, middle and high?

Sorry, just don't see it.

There's no compromise between being annexed and not being annexed

This whole process has been a disgrace

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One other thing I wanted to point out, is mistrust
> against Stu Gibson is all time high. We do not
> want a couple of Bones thrown our way with regards
> to a couple of AP courses. That will not work. We
> deserve a comprehensive AP program comparable to
> Oakton or Westfields where you are asking warm
> bodies from. No hard feelings :)

No hard feelings here. I would prefer either all AP or addition of 6 AP courses (most popular) to the IB offering at SL. I am a parent of future SL students. There are many of us who are either neutral or prefer AP.

HooTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Manoj Bal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One other thing I wanted to point out, is
> mistrust
> > against Stu Gibson is all time high. We do not
> > want a couple of Bones thrown our way with
> regards
> > to a couple of AP courses. That will not work.
> We
> > deserve a comprehensive AP program comparable
> to
> > Oakton or Westfields where you are asking warm
> > bodies from. No hard feelings :)
>
> No hard feelings here. I would prefer either all
> AP or addition of 6 AP courses (most popular) to
> the IB offering at SL. I am a parent of future SL
> students. There are many of us who are either
> neutral or prefer AP.



Are you aware of the tremendous costs associated with running a full fledge IB program along with complete AP program. That has never occured anywhere in US. That is why I am saying you got screwed when they thrust IB on you back in 2000. Did they ask for community input? IB caters to best of the best and personally it is a wrong choice for a planned community like Reston where you have people from all walks of life. My personal feelings.

5 to 7 A/P courses is a full load but how offerings should there be to compliment non science and math courses. I think the whole county offers about 21? courses throughout all fcps.

HooTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Manoj Bal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One other thing I wanted to point out, is
> mistrust
> > against Stu Gibson is all time high. We do not
> > want a couple of Bones thrown our way with
> regards
> > to a couple of AP courses. That will not work.
> We
> > deserve a comprehensive AP program comparable
> to
> > Oakton or Westfields where you are asking warm
> > bodies from. No hard feelings :)
>
> No hard feelings here. I would prefer either all
> AP or addition of 6 AP courses (most popular) to
> the IB offering at SL. I am a parent of future SL
> students. There are many of us who are either
> neutral or prefer AP.

Hoo--have you emailed the SB and asked your friend to also? Please do.

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For my kids, I prefer Chantilly over Oakton. They
> are math/science kids (although that is not their
> favorites) and the school has some amazing
> programs in this area. If you want to see
> something impressive, go to the Academy and check
> out the robotics and computer classes. These
> students are so impressive and they are doing
> stuff that is at a level where they are rivaling
> what's going on professionally in this area. They
> also have a "Girls in Engineering" program. The
> math scores are better at Oakton but I have kids
> who already score at the top in math. What is
> more important for me is what applications
> opportunities they have in high school. It is
> really helping to give them a sense of what they
> might do with their skill set in college and
> beyond.
>
> As for the language/arts side of things, I can't
> really say. I assume they are pretty equal or
> maybe Oakton is a bit better or offers more.
>
> Chantilly is not quite as high income as Oakton
> and I actually prefer the more "economically
> diverse" mix. Realizing that most at either
> school are financially well off, I think the more
> my kids interact with "working class" people --
> the better. I don't want them thinking that they
> will receive anything financially that they don't
> earn themselves. But that's just my personal
> opinion.


Thanks for the detailed answer. This is exactly the kind of stuff I was curious about.

Sorry, I meant 5-7 A/P courses through graduation.

Unfortunately for all of us there has been bad behavior on all sides of the issue. For the most part, I believe everyone is acting for what they feel is right. If not, we are all in trouble.

Also, please keep in mind that not every member of a group is represented by the most vocal.

Again I feel for any child having to make a change but it appears that the RD is inevitable regardless of lawsuits, name calling, pupil placement, etc.

It's in everyone's best interest once the decision is made on the 28th to make change for the improvement of all schools. This will involve everyone's cooperation.

RDNeutral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If South Lakes converts to an AP school, would Fox
> Mill and Floris Parents willingly send their kids
> to SL? Answer honestly.

Yes, but my kids are a few years away from HS so I would consider sending them regardless of the IB/AP issue. As someone stated above regarding the Navy/Oakton issue, most parents in FME that I know with elementary age kids aren't as passionatly against RD as others. My view on the AP/IB issue is that I wouldn't expect my kids to load up on every possible AP class or go for an IB diploma but rather to take enough classes to be challenged accademically and to place out of those 101 series college courses taught by TAs.

With that in mind is it possible for a school to add the most popular AP classes (I'm assuming Human Geo isn't one of them) without necessarily going "Full AP"? If so, could a student mix IB HL classes for the emphasis on english, writing, etc. and also take science and math oriented AP classes? I ask in part because as someone noted it's not possible for a school to support both Full AP and Full IB and I think it's wishfull thinking to expect SL to just ditch IB, it isn't going to happen overnight anyway.

chs Wrote:
> I think you have to experience high school with
> your child before you fully understand the sense
> of community you build around a school. As you
> can see in this thread, everyone would love to
> stay in their current high school whether it is
> South Lakes, Herndon, Westfield, Chantilly, Oakton
> or Madison -- no one really wants to move schools.
> Test scores and rankings are not the whole story.
> Teachers, administrators, coaches, friends,
> afterschool activities, sports teams, etc. are all
> part of the equation. (And please look very
> carefully at Oaktons scores vs. Chantillys they
> are not that much different!). Every student has
> a different experience. Why are you excited about
> possibly going to Oakton? What experience do you
> have with the school that makes you want to send
> your "very young kids" there? Why must there be a
> negative to one of the schools? Can't they both
> be good? All I can say to you is how would you
> answer the following question ... If you had to
> move from Navy to Waples Mill would you?


In a heartbeat, if the academics were superior.

The only thing I know about Chantilly vs. Oakton is rankings, test scores and economic data off the FCPS website and the newsmagazine rankings. Oakton, on paper at least, is the better school, but Navy Parent shared some nice info about the robotics program at CHS ... that sounds exciting!

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RDNeutral Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If South Lakes converts to an AP school, would
> Fox
> > Mill and Floris Parents willingly send their
> kids
> > to SL? Answer honestly.
>
> Yes, but my kids are a few years away from HS so I
> would consider sending them regardless of the
> IB/AP issue. As someone stated above regarding the
> Navy/Oakton issue, most parents in FME that I know
> with elementary age kids aren't as passionatly
> against RD as others. My view on the AP/IB issue
> is that I wouldn't expect my kids to load up on
> every possible AP class or go for an IB diploma
> but rather to take enough classes to be challenged
> accademically and to place out of those 101 series
> college courses taught by TAs.
>
> With that in mind is it possible for a school to
> add the most popular AP classes (I'm assuming
> Human Geo isn't one of them) without necessarily
> going "Full AP"? If so, could a student mix IB HL
> classes for the emphasis on english, writing, etc.
> and also take science and math oriented AP
> classes? I ask in part because as someone noted
> it's not possible for a school to support both
> Full AP and Full IB and I think it's wishfull
> thinking to expect SL to just ditch IB, it isn't
> going to happen overnight anyway.


I would think that if you did a half and half/piecemeal type thing with the classes instead of a full load of one or the other, you'd lose the AP or IB notation on your diploma.

You anti-IB people are incorrigible. I am tempted to start a campaign against AP --- and believe me, I hear PLENTY of anger over how AP is run in this county! Plenty. There would be loads and load of ammo against that program! Especially from teachers who are stuck in almost every class with obvious parent-placements who can't hack it. Teachers have to try to teach a rigorous class with these underachievers, unerperformers --- call them what you want --- in them, sometimes a big percentage of the class!

And they have to deal with parents who whine and complain that their kids aren't getting As and how are they going to get into MIT and Stanford and Harvard and the 15 other colleges they apply to? Talk to any AP teacher!

If any of you have any honor at all in your bodies, you will do your own work to get to know the facts about IB. You will discover that it is absolutely NOT the "top 10%" or "top 5%" who "benefit!" You'll FINALLY learn that the IB diploma is comparable only to the FCPS AP Diploma, with additional requirements. You'll learn that fully 13.2% of the graduating class of SLHS last year earned this diploma, and 47% were taking FULL IB courses, a better percentage of kids than at many AP schools!

I'm sick of this story! Get your facts right and you can enter a real discussion about this. Otherwise, you have to respect the opinions of those with personal, long-term, and deep experience with IB.

no chance of compromise Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RDNeutral Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A compromise could be reached on both sides.
> >
> > The RD will be probably be approved and there is
> a
> > lot of bad feelings on both sides of the issue
> > going into the upcoming school year.
> >
> > Is there a way to resolve the issue amongst a
> > community of passionate parents that only want
> the
> > best for their children?
> >
> > I really feel for the families that are
> effected
> > by re-districting. I know you might not
> believe
> > me but it's true.
> >
> > Once the decision is made, is there a way we
> can
> > work together on a solution instead of
> continuing
> > to fight?
> >
> > I welcome all thoughts : )
>
>
> Sadly I don't think so where the Madison North
> community is concerned
>
> The community has been targeted by SLHS PTA,
> marginalized, ignored by the SB including its own
> member, had Herndon residents turn up at meetings
> with the aim of throwing them under the bus, had
> SLHS teachers at hearings call anyone who
> questions coercive redistricting racist and been
> vilified for not wanting to be forcably annexed
> into Reston from their own communities.
>
> Why has the community been targeted at elementary,
> middle and high?
>
> Sorry, just don't see it.
>
> There's no compromise between being annexed and
> not being annexed
>
> This whole process has been a disgrace


Same sentiment from Floris. Had this warm and fuzzy been offered before the PTA Moms outlined the agenda, you would have more supporters. Now folks just can't even say "South Lakes" without cringing.

I've also been really tempted to start campaigns against the reputations of all these other so-called top-ranked schools. Oh, the skeletons I know about! Oh, the mud that could be slung! About underachievement and dropouts and drugs and grade inflation and stress and cliques. About Latino Clubs that met (next door to Asian Clubs) but were told to disband by administrators for fear of gangs. Oh, the things that could be said, that aren't -- because South Lakes parents decided long ago not to go that route. So there they are. Stuck with defending and defending and defending against more and more and more untruths and misconceptions and fears. It never ends.

I'm outta here. (Do I hear cheers from the deaf?)

FedUP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You anti-IB people are incorrigible. I am tempted
> to start a campaign against AP --- and believe me,
> I hear PLENTY of anger over how AP is run in this
> county! Plenty. There would be loads and load of
> ammo against that program! Especially from
> teachers who are stuck in almost every class with
> obvious parent-placements who can't hack it.
> Teachers have to try to teach a rigorous class
> with these underachievers, unerperformers ---
> call them what you want --- in them, sometimes a
> big percentage of the class!
>
> And they have to deal with parents who whine and
> complain that their kids aren't getting As and how
> are they going to get into MIT and Stanford and
> Harvard and the 15 other colleges they apply to?
> Talk to any AP teacher!
>
> If any of you have any honor at all in your
> bodies, you will do your own work to get to know
> the facts about IB. You will discover that it is
> absolutely NOT the "top 10%" or "top 5%" who
> "benefit!" You'll FINALLY learn that the IB
> diploma is comparable only to the FCPS AP Diploma,
> with additional requirements. You'll learn that
> fully 13.2% of the graduating class of SLHS last
> year earned this diploma, and 47% were taking FULL
> IB courses, a better percentage of kids than at
> many AP schools!
>
> I'm sick of this story! Get your facts right and
> you can enter a real discussion about this.
> Otherwise, you have to respect the opinions of
> those with personal, long-term, and deep
> experience with IB.

Calm down fedUP.

47% took full IB courses and 13% got diploma right? So strictly from a college credit point of view who benefited? The 13% that got the diploma. See that number is not that far away from the 10% I was mentioning before.

Also I bet you the 13% who got the diploma were either brilliant or toiled hard to get it. Wonder how much free time they had to enjoy their childhood/teenage life. That is precisely my point. only 13% got it remaining sure got a lot of knowledge but no college credits. I don't know about you but I am a parent with 3 kids. If my child can save me a few thousand $$ for college education I will gladly take it.

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FedUP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You anti-IB people are incorrigible. I am
> tempted
> > to start a campaign against AP --- and believe
> me,
> > I hear PLENTY of anger over how AP is run in
> this
> > county! Plenty. There would be loads and load
> of
> > ammo against that program! Especially from
> > teachers who are stuck in almost every class
> with
> > obvious parent-placements who can't hack it.
> > Teachers have to try to teach a rigorous class
> > with these underachievers, unerperformers ---
> > call them what you want --- in them, sometimes
> a
> > big percentage of the class!
> >
> > And they have to deal with parents who whine
> and
> > complain that their kids aren't getting As and
> how
> > are they going to get into MIT and Stanford and
> > Harvard and the 15 other colleges they apply
> to?
> > Talk to any AP teacher!
> >
> > If any of you have any honor at all in your
> > bodies, you will do your own work to get to
> know
> > the facts about IB. You will discover that it
> is
> > absolutely NOT the "top 10%" or "top 5%" who
> > "benefit!" You'll FINALLY learn that the IB
> > diploma is comparable only to the FCPS AP
> Diploma,
> > with additional requirements. You'll learn that
> > fully 13.2% of the graduating class of SLHS
> last
> > year earned this diploma, and 47% were taking
> FULL
> > IB courses, a better percentage of kids than at
> > many AP schools!
> >
> > I'm sick of this story! Get your facts right
> and
> > you can enter a real discussion about this.
> > Otherwise, you have to respect the opinions of
> > those with personal, long-term, and deep
> > experience with IB.
>
> Calm down fedUP.
>
> 47% took full IB courses and 13% got diploma
> right? So strictly from a college credit point of
> view who benefited? The 13% that got the diploma.
> See that number is not that far away from the 10%
> I was mentioning before.
>
> Also I bet you the 13% who got the diploma were
> either brilliant or toiled hard to get it. Wonder
> how much free time they had to enjoy their
> childhood/teenage life. That is precisely my
> point. only 13% got it remaining sure got a lot of
> knowledge but no college credits. I don't know
> about you but I am a parent with 3 kids. If my
> child can save me a few thousand $$ for college
> education I will gladly take it.


You do not have a clue about IB. IB COURSES get credit. Just like AP COURSES. So quit talking through your ...

Now look who is spreading misinformation. You get college credits only if you are a IB Diploma holder not for just taking IB courses. GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. We are having a civilized discussion here.

This community of fearmongers is poisonous. I won't calm down until this RD is over and a beautiful school can begin to heal from its tormenters.

"Same sentiment from Floris. Had this warm and fuzzy been offered before the PTA Moms outlined the agenda, you would have more supporters. Now folks just can't even say "South Lakes" without cringing."


My response - So we do just give up? Do we just stay with the status quo and continue to fight? (FedUp thinks so) That would be unfortunate because this time next year we could all be a member of the same group, same PTSA, have kids on the same basketball team, etc.

Stick to the point fedUP. I will repeat it again, take IB courses without IB diploma 0 college credits.

Take a few AP courses of your choice and pass then with certain GPA get college credits.

I have nothing against IB program but it is a fact.

FedUP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This community of fearmongers is poisonous. I
> won't calm down until this RD is over and a
> beautiful school can begin to heal from its
> tormenters.

I won't calm down until the SLHS mafia and their allies leave our communities alone in THEIR beautiful schools and let us get on with bringing up our kids

SLHS community started this, have been throwing accusations around and behaving like bullies - aided and abetted by the SB

Me thinks the lady do protest too much - its clear where the poison is coming from

Exhibit A: Fed Up.

She would like us to believe that only kids in AP schools ever take classes that are too advanced for them, or worry about their grades for college admission. No proof offered...if we'd only "get to know the facts about IB", we'd learn that that is impossible with IB. Oh, wait a minute. I'm sorry. It is possible with IB, since we're dealing with the same pool of kids here.

And it's not the top 10%...why, it's the top 13.2%! Last year, anyway. It was only about 8% the year before, but let's not discuss that.

And...and...and...42% of kids were taking some IB courses, which is better than at some AP schools! Not the ones involved in redistricting, of course, which are well above 50%, but some AP schools, someplace. No mention of whether these 42% of kids got any college credit for their extra work. Its not about that.

Talk about getting your facts right. Go do that, please.

PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK AT THE PUBLIC HEARING ON 2/19/08 YOU MUST SIGN UP TO SPEAK BEFORE 4:30 ON FRIDAY 2/15/08. MONDAY IS A HOLIDAY.

PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK AT THE PUBLIC HEARING ON 2/19/08 YOU MUST SIGN UP TO SPEAK BEFORE 4:30 ON FRIDAY 2/15/08. MONDAY IS A HOLIDAY.