I don't doubt there are problems with AP, but I object to IB based on the curriculum itself. It's inherently globalist and politically liberal. Look at the book lists posted pages and pages ago and compare them. AP is much more neutral and lacking an "agenda." It's far less political than IB.

If I wanted my kids to be good little global citizens and value every random culture out there as much as or more than their own, I'd be all over IB. If I wanted to ensure they'd be taught to prefer every point of view except the Judeo-Christian one, I'd be all over IB. If I wanted them to believe the UN should have authority over the US, I'd be all over IB.

I don't want all that, so I don't want IB.

nogofor me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK AT THE
> PUBLIC HEARING ON 2/19/08 YOU MUST SIGN UP TO
> SPEAK BEFORE 4:30 ON FRIDAY 2/15/08. MONDAY IS A
> HOLIDAY.


the list is already closed

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now look who is spreading misinformation. You get
> college credits only if you are a IB Diploma
> holder not for just taking IB courses. GET YOUR
> FACTS RIGHT. We are having a civilized discussion
> here.


MB,
This is patently false--you do get credit for individual IB courses. Where have you been?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2008 05:18PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK AT THE PUBLIC HEARING ON 2/19/08 YOU MUST SIGN UP TO SPEAK BEFORE 4:30 ON FRIDAY 2/15/08. MONDAY IS A HOLIDAY--presidents day

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stick to the point fedUP. I will repeat it again,
> take IB courses without IB diploma 0 college
> credits.
>
> Take a few AP courses of your choice and pass then
> with certain GPA get college credits.
>
> I have nothing against IB program but it is a
> fact.

Anybody else on this forum -- even IB opponents -- know you are totally wrong.

nogoforme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK AT THE
> PUBLIC HEARING ON 2/19/08 YOU MUST SIGN UP TO
> SPEAK BEFORE 4:30 ON FRIDAY 2/15/08. MONDAY IS A
> HOLIDAY--presidents day


Pay attention!! The list is already CLOSED!!!!!!!!

be nice...first time user!

RDNeutral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Same sentiment from Floris. Had this warm and
> fuzzy been offered before the PTA Moms outlined
> the agenda, you would have more supporters. Now
> folks just can't even say "South Lakes" without
> cringing."
>
>
> My response - So we do just give up? Do we just
> stay with the status quo and continue to fight?
> (FedUp thinks so) That would be unfortunate
> because this time next year we could all be a
> member of the same group, same PTSA, have kids on
> the same basketball team, etc.

You're assuming that students in the redistricted area will show up in their new schools. We'll have to wait and see if that will happen.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Manoj Bal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Now look who is spreading misinformation. You
> get
> > college credits only if you are a IB Diploma
> > holder not for just taking IB courses. GET YOUR
> > FACTS RIGHT. We are having a civilized
> discussion
> > here.
>
>
> MB,
> This is patently false--you do get credit for
> individual IB courses. Where have you been?

I am willing to argue this. This is a important point. My information is if you don't get a IB diploma you will not get individual course credits for IB classes you took.

Too late. It's closed yesterday.

The speakers list for the February 19 public hearing on the Proposed 2008-2009 Program/Attendance Area Adjustment is closed.
For further information please contact the School Board Office at 571.423.1061

NOGOFORME Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PLEASE REMEMBER IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK AT THE
> PUBLIC HEARING ON 2/19/08 YOU MUST SIGN UP TO
> SPEAK BEFORE 4:30 ON FRIDAY 2/15/08. MONDAY IS A
> HOLIDAY.

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Manoj Bal Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Now look who is spreading misinformation.
> You
> > get
> > > college credits only if you are a IB Diploma
> > > holder not for just taking IB courses. GET
> YOUR
> > > FACTS RIGHT. We are having a civilized
> > discussion
> > > here.
> >
> >
> > MB,
> > This is patently false--you do get credit for
> > individual IB courses. Where have you been?
>
> I am willing to argue this. This is a important
> point. My information is if you don't get a IB
> diploma you will not get individual course credits
> for IB classes you took.


Then you don't know the most basic facts about IB. Please quit spreading misinformation. Go to fcps.edu and look up their fact sheet on AP/IB or go to

http://www.ibo.org/

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> . I don't know
> about you but I am a parent with 3 kids. If my
> child can save me a few thousand $$ for college
> education I will gladly take it.


I think you need to keep in mind that mosts universities/colleges don't say when they offer admission what courses/exam scores will actually get credit. Their websites will say what AP/IB courses/scores MAY get credit. M.I.T makes a point of saying they will let admitted students know in August, just prior to starting, which courses they can opt out of.
I therefore am encouraging my sons not to count on college credit, but do very well in HS and apply for scholarships. I would much rather know at the time of the admission offer, what financial savings, and hence costs, we will be looking at.
Colleges usually offer placement tests afterall, that could allow a student to choose not to take an intro class, if they so choose. AP and IB aren't the only way of acheiving college credit, nor skipping those "intro classes taught by TA's "(and keep in mind most of those TA's have masters and are working on their doctorate, which is most likely a higher education background than AP or IB teachers). I realize it was probably another poster who discussed the TA aspect, but basing everything on college credit has its drawbacks.

IB has SL (standard level) and HL (higher level) courses. A look at a chart created to answer that question about SL and HL and college credit shows that only GMU will give college credit for 4 SL courses if the scores are high enough. This info is posted on the college websites of many college in VA and some Ivy League colleges.

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stick to the point fedUP. I will repeat it again,
> take IB courses without IB diploma 0 college
> credits.
>
> Take a few AP courses of your choice and pass then
> with certain GPA get college credits.
>
> I have nothing against IB program but it is a
> fact.


You are wrong, and can do a search at colleges to find that out. Some colleges don't accept SL IB courses without the diploma, but others will do that too. George Mason University accepts stand alone SL IB courses, i.e. no IB diploma, for college credit. HL courses without the diploma are accepted routinely.

eyes wide openrf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IB has SL (standard level) and HL (higher level)
> courses. A look at a chart created to answer that
> question about SL and HL and college credit shows
> that only GMU will give college credit for 4 SL
> courses if the scores are high enough. This info
> is posted on the college websites of many college
> in VA and some Ivy League colleges.


So you are saying only GMU will give you credits for IB courses? And it matters which colleges you apply to?

Manoj,

Please check a few college web sites. You will find that in the United States, colleges generally look at IB courses as separable units. Typically, SL courses get no college credit, and HL courses get college credit. The IB Diploma is, for the most part, irrelevant for college credit purposes. It is awarded after students have already been admitted to their colleges. With a few exceptions, students who get the IB Diploma get no additional college credit or other benefits once they get to college, either.

The same is true of all these other specialized high school diplomas, including the AP Diplomas, the FCPS Advanced Studies Diploma, and the TJ Diploma. The process of fulfilling the requirements for these diplomas may be educational and impress colleges, but the diplomas themselves don't mean much, especially since they are all awarded after students have been admitted to colleges.


Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am willing to argue this. This is a important
> point. My information is if you don't get a IB
> diploma you will not get individual course credits
> for IB classes you took.

FedUP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You anti-IB people are incorrigible. I am tempted
> to start a campaign against AP --- and believe me,
> I hear PLENTY of anger over how AP is run in this
> county! Plenty. There would be loads and load of
> ammo against that program! Especially from
> teachers who are stuck in almost every class with
> obvious parent-placements who can't hack it.
> Teachers have to try to teach a rigorous class
> with these underachievers, unerperformers ---
> call them what you want --- in them, sometimes a
> big percentage of the class!
>
> And they have to deal with parents who whine and
> complain that their kids aren't getting As and how
> are they going to get into MIT and Stanford and
> Harvard and the 15 other colleges they apply to?
> Talk to any AP teacher!
>
> If any of you have any honor at all in your
> bodies, you will do your own work to get to know
> the facts about IB. You will discover that it is
> absolutely NOT the "top 10%" or "top 5%" who
> "benefit!" You'll FINALLY learn that the IB
> diploma is comparable only to the FCPS AP Diploma,
> with additional requirements. You'll learn that
> fully 13.2% of the graduating class of SLHS last
> year earned this diploma, and 47% were taking FULL
> IB courses, a better percentage of kids than at
> many AP schools!
>
> I'm sick of this story! Get your facts right and
> you can enter a real discussion about this.
> Otherwise, you have to respect the opinions of
> those with personal, long-term, and deep
> experience with IB.

I am an MIT grad, a nuclear engineer and an electrical engineer. I have never taken an AP class or an IB class. It is not possible for me to directly 'experience' IB or AP as a student or parent without being enrolled or having my son enrolled. So, lacking a direct experience, I have looked at the Oakton and SL IB and AP math text books and curriculum. I have emailed with someone at SL who was given to me as a point of contact for the IB math curriculum. After looking at this, and comparing to my experience at MIT, I do not like it. Therefore, I do not want my son to take IB. Therefore, I do not want to go to SL. If SL was AP, I would go with a mixture of optimism and trepidation.

Let me try it this way... I do not want to try IB. In fact, I cannot just 'try it.' If we are sent to SL, there is no "trying it"...there is only "doing it", or pupil placing. Pupil placing will be a pain, so again I'd rather not go to SL.

Proponents of IB cannot really fault people for not wanting to try IB. I was recently in Korea for the first time and was offered stewed silk worm larva...some Koreans apparently love it...I did not want to try it...same for IB...I know people like it, but I do not want to try it.

And for the IB proponents, the discomfort you feel about people attempting to push AP at you is the mirror of the discomfort AP proponents feel about your advocacy.

So what to do? Obviously, for people with my perspective, the only thing to do is to oppose the RD.

If opposition fails and my neighborhood is sent to SL, I will join the PTA to join/form a committee to jettison IB in favor of AP. I think a lot of people will be interested in the same. We may not be able to get rid of it immediately, or ever. But I would think that if more folks want to get rid of it than keep it, the Board will have a hard time keeping it. I imagine it will be testy the first few years. But what else can I do...I do not want my kids taking IB, and I really do not want to pupil place. I think there should be a survey for current opinion, along with a recurring campaign of advocacy by both IB and AP proponents. Time will tell what happens...but it probably will not be a fun time. If the IB proponents at SL do not want to have an anti-IB campaign in their PTA, they should consider opposing the RD. Do you really want a bunch of people in your school who do not want to be there and who will actively work to jettison IB? It worked at Woodson, and it will probably work at SL too.

Be nice in your reply..I am not attacking anyone.

FedUP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This community of fearmongers is poisonous. I
> won't calm down until this RD is over and a
> beautiful school can begin to heal from its
> tormenters.

My beautiful psyche needs to heal from your postings.

Does anyone else here suspect that FedUP is really an anti-RD trying to make the RD/SLHS folks look like crazy-ass loons?

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Does anyone else here suspect that FedUP is really
> an anti-RD trying to make the RD/SLHS folks look
> like crazy-ass loons?


I suspect everyone on this board is pretending to be someone they are not.

MIT grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I am an MIT grad, a nuclear engineer and an
> electrical engineer. I have never taken an AP
> class or an IB class. It is not possible for me
> to directly 'experience' IB or AP as a student or
> parent without being enrolled or having my son
> enrolled. So, lacking a direct experience, I have
> looked at the Oakton and SL IB and AP math text
> books and curriculum. I have emailed with someone
> at SL who was given to me as a point of contact
> for the IB math curriculum. After looking at
> this, and comparing to my experience at MIT, I do
> not like it. Therefore, I do not want my son to
> take IB. Therefore, I do not want to go to SL. If
> SL was AP, I would go with a mixture of optimism
> and trepidation.
>
> Let me try it this way... I do not want to try IB.
> In fact, I cannot just 'try it.' If we are sent
> to SL, there is no "trying it"...there is only
> "doing it", or pupil placing. Pupil placing will
> be a pain, so again I'd rather not go to SL.
>
> Proponents of IB cannot really fault people for
> not wanting to try IB. I was recently in Korea for
> the first time and was offered stewed silk worm
> larva...some Koreans apparently love it...I did
> not want to try it...same for IB...I know people
> like it, but I do not want to try it.
>
> And for the IB proponents, the discomfort you feel
> about people attempting to push AP at you is the
> mirror of the discomfort AP proponents feel about
> your advocacy.
>
> So what to do? Obviously, for people with my
> perspective, the only thing to do is to oppose the
> RD.
>
> If opposition fails and my neighborhood is sent to
> SL, I will join the PTA to join/form a committee
> to jettison IB in favor of AP. I think a lot of
> people will be interested in the same. We may not
> be able to get rid of it immediately, or ever.
> But I would think that if more folks want to get
> rid of it than keep it, the Board will have a hard
> time keeping it. I imagine it will be testy the
> first few years. But what else can I do...I do
> not want my kids taking IB, and I really do not
> want to pupil place. I think there should be a
> survey for current opinion, along with a recurring
> campaign of advocacy by both IB and AP proponents.
> Time will tell what happens...but it probably
> will not be a fun time. If the IB proponents at
> SL do not want to have an anti-IB campaign in
> their PTA, they should consider opposing the RD.
> Do you really want a bunch of people in your
> school who do not want to be there and who will
> actively work to jettison IB? It worked at
> Woodson, and it will probably work at SL too.
>
> Be nice in your reply..I am not attacking anyone.

You might want to check out this report that compares AP and IB math and science courses. Scroll down the link to see relevant chapters relating to math on the left, and on the right hand side you will find different subjects too:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10380

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FedUP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This community of fearmongers is poisonous. I
> > won't calm down until this RD is over and a
> > beautiful school can begin to heal from its
> > tormenters.
>
> My beautiful psyche needs to heal from your
> postings.
>
> Does anyone else here suspect that FedUP is really
> an anti-RD trying to make the RD/SLHS folks look
> like crazy-ass loons?


Many of them didn't need any help with that, they did a good enough job themselves. FedUP sounds no more crazy than most of the hard-core pro-SLHSers. They all seem to think with their emotions and believe that anyone who doesn't buy into their BS is some kind of evil hatemonger.

Manoj,

I concur with AP vs. IB (who chose a name remarkably similar to mine) about looking beyond the ability of a program to save you money through college credit. Most students I've known do not use their AP or IB HL tests to graduate early from college. Instead, they use those AP and IB HL test scores to place out of large introductory courses and ultimately take some graduate level courses while still in college, take additional electives, satisfy college distribution requirements, obtain special priority in registering for popular courses, etc. This all has the potential to give students a better education for the same tuition dollars, which is a more subtle way of saying that AP and IB HL courses have economic benefits beyond letting kids graduate in less than 4 years.

AP has an advantage over IB for this purpose. Students can take AP tests without taking the courses. Many FCPS students do well enough (4/5 or 5/5) to get placement credit. FCPS students routinely take 5+ AP courses during high school, and some take 8 or more AP tests during high school. In contrast, IB students rarely take more than three IB HL courses, because the IB Diploma assumes three HL courses and three SL courses. FCPS students taking HL tests rarely score at the 6/7 or 7/7 level that many top colleges require to grant maximum credit. Perhaps this is because 4/7 is considered a passing grade for the IB Diploma, and IB teachers in FCPS are primarily concerned about making sure that nobody fails their IB exams. Or perhaps it is because FCPS does not seem to offer many HL classes where the teacher only has to work with HL students during that period. It would be good to hear from South Lakes and other IB students in FCPS about why so few FCPS students score 6 or 7 on the IB HL tests.

An IB student who wants to get college placement credit in many subjects and who attends a selective college generally has to do better than passing on his/her IB HL tests, take more than the normal number of IB HL tests, take AP tests without taking the AP courses, and/or persuade his or her college that he/she really knows the introductory course material. In some colleges, this can be accomplished through good SAT II scores and/or by taking the college's own placement tests for certain subjects.


> Manoj Bal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > . I don't know
> > about you but I am a parent with 3 kids. If my
> > child can save me a few thousand $$ for college
> > education I will gladly take it.

RDNeutral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Same sentiment from Floris. Had this warm and
> fuzzy been offered before the PTA Moms outlined
> the agenda, you would have more supporters. Now
> folks just can't even say "South Lakes" without
> cringing."
>
>
> My response - So we do just give up? Do we just
> stay with the status quo and continue to fight?
> (FedUp thinks so) That would be unfortunate
> because this time next year we could all be a
> member of the same group, same PTSA, have kids on
> the same basketball team, etc.



Well, let's see...why would anyone look forward and join hands with the likes of FedUp and IBVeritas????? No thank you?

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Manoj,
>
> I concur with AP vs. IB (who chose a name
> remarkably similar to mine)

Yes, sorry. I chose the moniker simply because the first post I wrote dealt with a question on the differences between the two programs. Didn't realize your moniker existed since I hadn't read from the start of the forum...way too long:-)

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIT grad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > I am an MIT grad, a nuclear engineer and an
> > electrical engineer. I have never taken an AP
> > class or an IB class. It is not possible for
> me
> > to directly 'experience' IB or AP as a student
> or
> > parent without being enrolled or having my son
> > enrolled. So, lacking a direct experience, I
> have
> > looked at the Oakton and SL IB and AP math text
> > books and curriculum. I have emailed with
> someone
> > at SL who was given to me as a point of contact
> > for the IB math curriculum. After looking at
> > this, and comparing to my experience at MIT, I
> do
> > not like it. Therefore, I do not want my son
> to
> > take IB. Therefore, I do not want to go to SL.
> If
> > SL was AP, I would go with a mixture of
> optimism
> > and trepidation.
> >
> > Let me try it this way... I do not want to try
> IB.
> > In fact, I cannot just 'try it.' If we are
> sent
> > to SL, there is no "trying it"...there is only
> > "doing it", or pupil placing. Pupil placing
> will
> > be a pain, so again I'd rather not go to SL.
> >
> > Proponents of IB cannot really fault people for
> > not wanting to try IB. I was recently in Korea
> for
> > the first time and was offered stewed silk worm
> > larva...some Koreans apparently love it...I did
> > not want to try it...same for IB...I know
> people
> > like it, but I do not want to try it.
> >
> > And for the IB proponents, the discomfort you
> feel
> > about people attempting to push AP at you is
> the
> > mirror of the discomfort AP proponents feel
> about
> > your advocacy.
> >
> > So what to do? Obviously, for people with my
> > perspective, the only thing to do is to oppose
> the
> > RD.
> >
> > If opposition fails and my neighborhood is sent
> to
> > SL, I will join the PTA to join/form a
> committee
> > to jettison IB in favor of AP. I think a lot
> of
> > people will be interested in the same. We may
> not
> > be able to get rid of it immediately, or ever.
> > But I would think that if more folks want to
> get
> > rid of it than keep it, the Board will have a
> hard
> > time keeping it. I imagine it will be testy
> the
> > first few years. But what else can I do...I do
> > not want my kids taking IB, and I really do not
> > want to pupil place. I think there should be a
> > survey for current opinion, along with a
> recurring
> > campaign of advocacy by both IB and AP
> proponents.
> > Time will tell what happens...but it probably
> > will not be a fun time. If the IB proponents
> at
> > SL do not want to have an anti-IB campaign in
> > their PTA, they should consider opposing the RD.
>
> > Do you really want a bunch of people in your
> > school who do not want to be there and who will
> > actively work to jettison IB? It worked at
> > Woodson, and it will probably work at SL too.
> >
> > Be nice in your reply..I am not attacking
> anyone.
>
> You might want to check out this report that
> compares AP and IB math and science courses.
> Scroll down the link to see relevant chapters
> relating to math on the left, and on the right
> hand side you will find different subjects too:
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10380

Thanks for the link...it is very very interesting. I compared the appendices listing the curricula for AP Calculus B/C and for IB Math HL. The AP curriculum is familiar to me in that it matches what I experienced at MIT (albeit very quickly...MIT is very very intensive, so we blew through that material pretty quickly). I was one of the only kids at MIT who never had calculus in high school. Boy did I suffer. I envied the kids who took AP. The material at this link leaves me further in favor of AP for my family. MIT does not teach math or the sciences in an IB-like context (maybe they should, but that is a different story). MIT teaches math and science like AP does. It is perhaps too glib to say, if the approach is good enough for the best (my bias!) engineering school in the world, it is good enough for me. Said more reasonably, I want my son (who is a great math/science kid who hopes to follow his dad to MIT) to get there and hit the ground running. Maybe he could do that with IB. Maybe he could do it better with IB. But I know he can do it with AP. Furthermore, I am qualified to tutor him in an AP construct. I have no idea if I can help him with the IB approach...maybe I can, maybe I cannot. But, because I know I can with AP, I want him to take AP. (Kinda like his language studies...he had a choice of languages in 8th grade. I steered toward French because his mother and I took French, so we knew we could help him. In fact, the language analogy is similar to the silk worm analogy. Imagine a family who had planned on having their kid educated in language A, which they were familiar with, only to find out they would be forced to have him educated in language B...clearly a recipe for unhappiness.)

My position is not changed. I think AP is best for my family. Hence I am opposed to the RD. Drop IB in favor of AP, and we have a different story.

Comments?

Don't worry - MIT Grad - notwithstanding your education and reasoned approach, it won't be long before someone refers to you as a blowhard (I can relate). You are up against those that have the fervor of righteous indignation, and they will not grasp the concept of choice nor the fact that the school they deign to represent is NOT a well leveraged seller but rather a wanting buyer of middle class students such as your offspring. Ahh, but with an administrative fiat in hand, and the glorious promise of an IB program that can mold the global citizen of tomorrow, markets don't matter (and don't get me wrong, the IB program has its place for a minority of students), and certainly don't want you to interrupt their visions, especially with that technical degree of yours.

Sarcastic, sure? But does this reflect a fair reaction to the liberal, paternalistic elitism that is apparent here? You bet.

After reading some more posts about the AP vs IB at SL, can anybody tell me why the AP program was booted out of SL in 2000 and then thrusted upon on with the IB program? Why did fcps do that? How was SL's performance like when they had the AP program running? Just curious.

MIT grad Wrote:


> MIT does not teach math or the sciences in an IB-like context (maybe they should, but that is a different story). MIT teaches math and science like AP does.

Why is this important? For bedtime reading download the free exec summary of

Rising Above The Gathering Storm: Energizing and Employing America for a Brighter Economic Future
Committee on Prospering in the Global Economy of the 21st Century:
An Agenda for American Science and Technology, National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, Institute of Medicine


http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11463

In a world where advanced knowledge is widespread and low-cost labor is readily
available, U.S. advantages in the marketplace and in science and technology have begun to erode. A comprehensive and coordinated federal effort is urgently needed to bolster U.S. competitiveness and pre-eminence in these areas. This congressionally requested report by a pre-eminent committee makes four recommendations along with 20 implementation actions that federal policy-makers should take to create high-quality jobs and focus new science and technology efforts on meeting the nation's needs, especially in the area of clean, affordable energy:
1) Increase America's talent pool by vastly improving K-12 mathematics and science education;
2) Sustain and strengthen the nation's commitment to long-term basic research;
3) Develop, recruit, and retain top students, scientists, and engineers from both the U.S. and abroad; and
4) Ensure that the United States is the premier place in the world for innovation.

Some actions will involve changing existing laws, while others will require financial support that would come from reallocating existing budgets or increasing them.

I concurr. IB has it's merits particularly for smaller school systems, private, or charter schools where it serves many of the overhead or curriculum development functions found within FCPS. Jay Matthews wrote Supertest about the installation of IB at Mount Vernon HS. IB forces a school to have quality instruction and requires it's own training for staff.

FCPS pays an exhorbitant amount of money for IB which was not supposed to go in at so many schools. FCPS has a contract with the College Board where tests are $74 and increase $1 annually for 10 years if I rememebr correctly. IB charges over $8500 per school and might charge about 5200 in FY2008 for IBMY [FY2009 might see a 20% increase in these fees. FY2008 Each student has a $123 fee
and a $84 per test or evaluation fee. I don't know if these charges will increase in this budget. IB also requires a full-time staff member to work with the diploma candiates as a coach/guidance person.

If a school has 300 students testing in IB that is:
annual student fee 36900=300*123
1st test all students 25200=300*84
2nd test 150 students =12600
3rd test 50 diploma candidates= 4200
total tests= 500*84=$42000
500 AP test *74=37000
diff 5000

Allocating a per school fee of 8500{?} for 300 =28
Allocating that over diploma candidates =170 annually per student

The 50 diploma candidates are :
fee 6150
tests 12600
teacher/coach/IB coordinator 80000?
school fee 8500
total 107250/50=$2145
3 AP exams =$222
Diff $1923


Also AP training is less costly and FCPS has revenue from training other districts AP teachers. IB might not have local training for all requirements ------so flights-hotels-junkets. Trip to Canada , Wales, or Geneva? Not a car mileage reimbursement to George Mason or UVA and a Court yard Marriot [or dorm].


MIT grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > MIT grad Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > >
> > > I am an MIT grad, a nuclear engineer and an
> > > electrical engineer. I have never taken an
> AP
> > > class or an IB class. It is not possible for
> > me
> > > to directly 'experience' IB or AP as a
> student
> > or
> > > parent without being enrolled or having my
> son
> > > enrolled. So, lacking a direct experience, I
> > have
> > > looked at the Oakton and SL IB and AP math
> text
> > > books and curriculum. I have emailed with
> > someone
> > > at SL who was given to me as a point of
> contact
> > > for the IB math curriculum. After looking at
> > > this, and comparing to my experience at MIT,
> I
> > do
> > > not like it. Therefore, I do not want my son
> > to
> > > take IB. Therefore, I do not want to go to SL.
>
> > If
> > > SL was AP, I would go with a mixture of
> > optimism
> > > and trepidation.
> > >
> > > Let me try it this way... I do not want to
> try
> > IB.
> > > In fact, I cannot just 'try it.' If we are
> > sent
> > > to SL, there is no "trying it"...there is
> only
> > > "doing it", or pupil placing. Pupil placing
> > will
> > > be a pain, so again I'd rather not go to SL.
>
> > >
> > > Proponents of IB cannot really fault people
> for
> > > not wanting to try IB. I was recently in
> Korea
> > for
> > > the first time and was offered stewed silk
> worm
> > > larva...some Koreans apparently love it...I
> did
> > > not want to try it...same for IB...I know
> > people
> > > like it, but I do not want to try it.
> > >
> > > And for the IB proponents, the discomfort you
> > feel
> > > about people attempting to push AP at you is
> > the
> > > mirror of the discomfort AP proponents feel
> > about
> > > your advocacy.
> > >
> > > So what to do? Obviously, for people with my
> > > perspective, the only thing to do is to
> oppose
> > the
> > > RD.
> > >
> > > If opposition fails and my neighborhood is
> sent
> > to
> > > SL, I will join the PTA to join/form a
> > committee
> > > to jettison IB in favor of AP. I think a lot
> > of
> > > people will be interested in the same. We
> may
> > not
> > > be able to get rid of it immediately, or ever.
>
> > > But I would think that if more folks want to
> > get
> > > rid of it than keep it, the Board will have a
> > hard
> > > time keeping it. I imagine it will be testy
> > the
> > > first few years. But what else can I do...I
> do
> > > not want my kids taking IB, and I really do
> not
> > > want to pupil place. I think there should be
> a
> > > survey for current opinion, along with a
> > recurring
> > > campaign of advocacy by both IB and AP
> > proponents.
> > > Time will tell what happens...but it
> probably
> > > will not be a fun time. If the IB proponents
> > at
> > > SL do not want to have an anti-IB campaign in
> > > their PTA, they should consider opposing the
> RD.
> >
> > > Do you really want a bunch of people in your
> > > school who do not want to be there and who
> will
> > > actively work to jettison IB? It worked at
> > > Woodson, and it will probably work at SL too.
> > >
> > > Be nice in your reply..I am not attacking
> > anyone.
> >
> > You might want to check out this report that
> > compares AP and IB math and science courses.
> > Scroll down the link to see relevant chapters
> > relating to math on the left, and on the right
> > hand side you will find different subjects too:
> > http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10380
>
> Thanks for the link...it is very very interesting.
> I compared the appendices listing the curricula
> for AP Calculus B/C and for IB Math HL. The AP
> curriculum is familiar to me in that it matches
> what I experienced at MIT (albeit very
> quickly...MIT is very very intensive, so we blew
> through that material pretty quickly). I was one
> of the only kids at MIT who never had calculus in
> high school. Boy did I suffer. I envied the kids
> who took AP. The material at this link leaves me
> further in favor of AP for my family. MIT does
> not teach math or the sciences in an IB-like
> context (maybe they should, but that is a
> different story). MIT teaches math and science
> like AP does. It is perhaps too glib to say, if
> the approach is good enough for the best (my
> bias!) engineering school in the world, it is good
> enough for me. Said more reasonably, I want my
> son (who is a great math/science kid who hopes to
> follow his dad to MIT) to get there and hit the
> ground running. Maybe he could do that with IB.
> Maybe he could do it better with IB. But I know
> he can do it with AP. Furthermore, I am qualified
> to tutor him in an AP construct. I have no idea
> if I can help him with the IB approach...maybe I
> can, maybe I cannot. But, because I know I can
> with AP, I want him to take AP. (Kinda like his
> language studies...he had a choice of languages in
> 8th grade. I steered toward French because his
> mother and I took French, so we knew we could help
> him. In fact, the language analogy is similar to
> the silk worm analogy. Imagine a family who had
> planned on having their kid educated in language
> A, which they were familiar with, only to find out
> they would be forced to have him educated in
> language B...clearly a recipe for unhappiness.)
>
> My position is not changed. I think AP is best
> for my family. Hence I am opposed to the RD.
> Drop IB in favor of AP, and we have a different
> story.
>
> Comments?

MIT grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >> Thanks for the link...it is very very interesting.
> I compared the appendices listing the curricula
> for AP Calculus B/C and for IB Math HL. The AP
> curriculum is familiar to me in that it matches
> what I experienced at MIT (albeit very
> quickly...MIT is very very intensive, so we blew
> through that material pretty quickly). I was one
> of the only kids at MIT who never had calculus in
> high school. Boy did I suffer. I envied the kids
> who took AP. The material at this link leaves me
> further in favor of AP for my family. MIT does
> not teach math or the sciences in an IB-like
> context (maybe they should, but that is a
> different story). MIT teaches math and science
> like AP does. It is perhaps too glib to say, if
> the approach is good enough for the best (my
> bias!) engineering school in the world, it is good
> enough for me. Said more reasonably, I want my
> son (who is a great math/science kid who hopes to
> follow his dad to MIT) to get there and hit the
> ground running. Maybe he could do that with IB.
> Maybe he could do it better with IB. But I know
> he can do it with AP. Furthermore, I am qualified
> to tutor him in an AP construct. I have no idea
> if I can help him with the IB approach...maybe I
> can, maybe I cannot. But, because I know I can
> with AP, I want him to take AP. (Kinda like his
> language studies...he had a choice of languages in
> 8th grade. I steered toward French because his
> mother and I took French, so we knew we could help
> him. In fact, the language analogy is similar to
> the silk worm analogy. Imagine a family who had
> planned on having their kid educated in language
> A, which they were familiar with, only to find out
> they would be forced to have him educated in
> language B...clearly a recipe for unhappiness.)
>
> My position is not changed. I think AP is best
> for my family. Hence I am opposed to the RD.
> Drop IB in favor of AP, and we have a different
> story.
>
> Comments?

Glad you found it interesting. I wasn't truly trying to change your position; some of your earlier comments led me to believe you may not have been given all of the information on the IB math courses, so thought I would post something I had read (well, skimmed).

Did your son apply to TJ due to his interests/skills? If so, perhaps all of this is moot for you.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but why not a magnet school for troubled kids or underachievers as the solution to SL woes?

The good students from SL could be sent to surrounding schools, and the problem students of surrounding schools could be sent to SL. This would eliminate the distractions and burden on teacher resources at good schools. SL could be sort of like the Bryant Alternative High School only for high school age kids. SL could concentrate full-time on bringing the underachievers up to speed.

I guess what the PTSA of SL and Stu didnt anticipate is that nothing unites people faster than a common foe.

Initially we sympathized with SLHS's plight, then we questioned their plight, the entire time they called us racists Who said any of that. I have seen pages of quotes from SL PTSAs speaking of property values in Reston, and affluent racists who use our children as 'red herring' arguments when we arent worried about our kids suffering from loss of relationships or continuity in education but because we REALLY FEAR DIVERSITY.

Imagine, here we are mothers and fathers and we dont give a Damn about our kids feelings? Deep down we are only worried about our kids learning to deal with DIVERSITY? GET A GRIP.

by the way I concur with the person who said before this I had never even heard about South Lakes and now I cant hear the words without cringing.

this has left a mark on our communities and everyone should be outraged. Not only at the SB and Staff but at eachother. We have been pawns in an experiment and it is not over yet.

I just realized that my entire life I have been a fan of public schools. I think if those of us opposed to RD are united in our opposition we are also united in our disdain for FCPS.

That is sad for them and for us. I know that I will never vote yes on another school related spending item. I will become more active and attend more SB meetings. They have lost my trust. I am sorry to say that. This thought has never hit me as it just has.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After reading some more posts about the AP vs IB
> at SL, can anybody tell me why the AP program was
> booted out of SL in 2000 and then thrusted upon on
> with the IB program? Why did fcps do that? How
> was SL's performance like when they had the AP
> program running? Just curious.

Stu ain't talking. The Area Superintendent, who imposed it, is now in retirement.

In 2001, the SL seniors who had been taught in an AP school were third in the County in SATs.

I do not believe there is a correlationship because I have concluded, after 30 years of admission volunteering for a elite school in the northeast, that SATs are merely a surrogate for the economic class of the individual student. Thus, aggregating SAT scores by school is meanless.

Further, any admissions officer will tell you that a difference of 50 points between students is meanless.

When Conant invented the SAT, he was trying to create a metric that would predict the success of incoming freshman at Harvard, so as to open Harvard to students who hadn't gone to a small number of ritzy prep schools.

Today, because upper class families have figured out how to game the SATs, it has lost all of its predictive functionality.

That's why the Regents of the UCal system and others have threatened or decided to drop SATs from from admission criteria.

In response, the College Board added the written essay which most schools are ignoring because it's only been in use for 2 years.

The speculation is that IB was imposed on the schools with high percentages of FRL and ESL in order to keep the upper class kids from moving out of those schools' attendance areas. That is speculation but a reasonable guess.

"by the way I concur with the person who said before this I had never even heard about South Lakes and now I cant hear the words without cringing.

this has left a mark on our communities and everyone should be outraged. Not only at the SB and Staff but at eachother. We have been pawns in an experiment and it is not over yet."


My response - When you say everyone should be outraged please include the students and parents at SL. No one ever asked me as a SL parents if I thought we needed more kids or IB or AP for that matter. Please don't lose sight of the fact that the impact will be felt for all.

It will be hard for everyone next year and I know there will be parents that will be forced to bring their kids to our school who won't have the ability to pupil place due to transportation issues.

The point I have been trying to make is that we'll have to adjust and make the best for everyone.

The speculation is that IB was imposed on the schools with high percentages of FRL and ESL in order to keep the upper class kids from moving out of those schools' attendance areas. """That is speculation but a reasonable guess.""""

***You got that right!

curiousGeorge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The speculation is that IB was imposed on the
> schools with high percentages of FRL and ESL in
> order to keep the upper class kids from moving out
> of those schools' attendance areas. """That is
> speculation but a reasonable guess.""""
>
> ***You got that right!


Do you need a banana? Now I got another question..with this "speculation" let me think, Robinson is conceived as one of the largest high schools with an IB program. Did Robinson have a high percentage of FRL and ESL before the IB program was implemented?

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Colleges usually offer placement tests afterall,
> that could allow a student to choose not to take
> an intro class, if they so choose. AP and IB
> aren't the only way of acheiving college credit,
> nor skipping those "intro classes taught by TA's
> "(and keep in mind most of those TA's have masters
> and are working on their doctorate, which is most
> likely a higher education background than AP or IB
> teachers). I realize it was probably another
> poster who discussed the TA aspect, but basing
> everything on college credit has its drawbacks.

I was the one that brought up the TA aspect but it wasn't intended to denigrate TA's or their role in higher education. My recollection of those 101 TA classes is that they were taught in an auditorium with hundreds of students, not exactly the best way to spend hard earned tuition money.

What I was asking but haven't found out yet is about how many kids just take a few either IB or AP classes to get some college but don't dive in head first into either program? Since it doesn't appear that a full IB school could also support full AP how many core AP courses could a IB school realistically pick up?

Exactly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Honestly, does anybody think this RD will
> really
> > succeed?
>
>
> Of course it will.
>
> Floris - split
> Foxmill - split
> McNair - Split
> Oak Hill - Split
>
> Floris - pupil placement
> Foxmill - pupil placement
> McNair - pupil placement
> Oak Hill - pupil placement
>
> Let the madness began. I am not surprised a bit if
> some of the current SL students pupil place out of
> SL.


That's true, I think that all the negative attention on SL and the IB program will further reduce the number of Reston kids who show up. Before this I'll bet most parents talked to a few neighbors whose kids went there, were told it was fine, (because how could it not be if they sent their own kids?) and that was that. A lot of questions have been raised now.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before,
> but why not a magnet school for troubled kids or
> underachievers as the solution to SL woes?
>
> The good students from SL could be sent to
> surrounding schools, and the problem students of
> surrounding schools could be sent to SL. This
> would eliminate the distractions and burden on
> teacher resources at good schools. SL could be
> sort of like the Bryant Alternative High School
> only for high school age kids. SL could
> concentrate full-time on bringing the
> underachievers up to speed.


I don't usually feed trolls but I thought I'd point out something to you. You posted from your Blackberry, "I'll be speaking in 15 minutes" to the SB at the public meeting 1/30. That would have put your time at around 8:30 pm. It would probably be real easy for anyone who wanted to figure out who you really are. It won't be me, I don't care who you are, but I thought you might want to consider that when you post here.

RDNeutral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If South Lakes converts to an AP school, would Fox
> Mill and Floris Parents willingly send their kids
> to SL? Answer honestly.


Not next year, but if things looked good at the school, and I mean the whole package, I would in a few years. I have a younger child, and god forbid this RD goes through, I'd send him IF the school was strong. But for my older child, no. I think we're all nervous about being guinea pigs. We've heard that there will be more opportunities added to the school, but the only specific I've heard is AP Human Geography or something like that.

FedUP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This community of fearmongers is poisonous. I
> won't calm down until this RD is over and a
> beautiful school can begin to heal from its
> tormenters.


Hello again, I see you've once again changed your name and you're angrier than ever. Are you getting worried that your long-sought after RD might not happen after all? I'm starting to feel hopeful.

Floris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why stop the whole thing is not option? The county
> said SB didn't provide such option. Why S&K is so
> determined?

Staff cannot provide that option, but the school board certainly can. The school board can vote to halt it.

Thomas More - I concur that too much weight is put on SAT scores, and that the differences between the scores at South Lakes, for example, and neighboring schools are negligible and relatively meaningless. The "good" students - meaning the dedicated ones that pay attention - are just as good at SLHS as any other school in Fairfax, save for TJ, which is in a class of one.

(A young lady I met going to one of the best universities in the US next fall should be a walking poster woman for South Lakes High School - as fine of young person as anyone would want to meet with out of this world language and verbal skills that have made her wildly succeed at the IB program - which I mention to put balance in the conversation but once again to remind those of just whom the IB program is a good fit. ).

But the SAT remains, as imperfect as it is, a good predictor of college success, in fact, sadly better than almost any other predictor (the preparation assertion is a good one - scores do improve with preparation - but it is a bit tautological because the test in its clumsy way prepares for the analytic thinking required for school and the preparation hence is not a hollow effort) . My own view is that this ought to be kept in mind as a guide in college admissions, but not be dispositive. Most colleges state just this, but the general reality is that when it comes to whites and even more so Asians, elite schools fail to do just this - and indeed put too much weight on the scores for these groups. When it comes to under-represented minorities, however, the opposite occurs, and a great deal of forbearance is exercised with SAT scores. At my own alma mater, if white or Asian, really a student must be very, very lucky to gain admittance (unless a national level athlete) if their scores are below 1500 on the old portions of the SAT (it is a top 10 US News school), whereas with under-represented minorities scores can be 250-300 points lower (or more). It would be refreshing if the schools that want to get rid of the SAT would state that they are doing so as to entirely avoid the rotten morass of racial identity politics, but that is exactly the opposite of what they would say.

The reason why the Regents of University of California want to jettison SAT scores is that the liberal apparatchiks in the university system absolutely hate Proposition 209 and want to go back to the days when they could discriminate on the basis of race at their elite schools. There are so few under-represented minorities, that Berkeley and UCLA have virtually only minorities who are national class athletes. The perils, so to speak, of a meritocracy. The SAT scores, at least when it comes to high scorers (i.e. those above 1300 on the old portions of the SAT) of URM's across the board are remarkably dismal. That problem has proven to be an intractable one, strangely having gotten worse since the late 80's after a closing of the gap in the years after the civil rights gains of the 60's. And these problems are in some respects relevant to what folks are talking about at South Lakes - at the risk, of course of being deemed racist. In South Lakes defense, the "damage" with the challenging students is likely already done by the time South Lakes gets them.

One argument that you do not make, although I think you imply it, is that putting too much emphasis on the SAT may discourage somewhat lesser students (especially minority students initially in the 900-1000 range on the "old" SAT) from taking the test. In terms of developing test taking and analytic skills, the test has value - and its potential for improvement with study and preparation is a good thing - think how many times in professional life we must think both analytically and quickly under pressure, and taking the SAT simply is good practice. By way of example, I intuit that a young person that improves on the SAT would gain confidence on an ASVAB or trade school test, a good score on which really can enhance the chances of a job specialty and the like.

But in any event, the problems at South Lakes are not with SAT scores - more aptly, I would ascribe to the problems to those that do not take the SAT at all. This is, of course, a reasonably small minority - but don't think for a moment that this minority doesn't scare some parents away from the place, as unfair as that might be.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I find this very ironic.
> First you all complain that they don't listen to
> you.
>
> Now that they are proposing new options to factor
> in your input, you complain that they are
> schizophrenic.

They did not factor in our input. There is no reason for this redistricting.

>
> Which do you prefer, then?

No redistricting. There is no reason for it.

>
> I think they are bending over backwards to try and
> please everyone. An impossible task. This is
> probably why other counties don't even have public
> input when they do redistricting.

I think that they are nuts. Every elementary school in our area is getting split between multiple high schools. Please notice that these communities are being kicked out of high schools that are not over capacity. There is no logic or reason here. There is no consideration for the community.

Before the RD, every communities in West county are in peace and they never bother each other. Now, everyone involved dislikes SLHS so much that, they would not even want to send their enemies there, regardless how great SLHS people are. SLHS' reputation has been tarnished through this corrupted RD process.
Outside of SLHS district, by mentioning Gibson's name at night, kids would cry and can't go to sleep. Gibson's name would scare the shit out of them. Gibson is like an evil to them.
When teenagers refuse to listen to instructions, a warning of, "kids, if you don't listen, we will send you to SLHS", will do the trick. That's how bad it is now.
Go ask around, no one in West county would trust SB anymore. They have lost all their credits.

MIT (and anyone who wants a calm look at IB):

Are you aware that IB math teachers can tailor their SL and HL courses so that they track the way AP does? Both SL and HL cover AP AB and BC calc, but do it in differing sequences and with different emphases. IB has a greater focus on statistics, but it also has a much greater focus on process - kids may get one or two big problems to solve and then must choose the most appropriate math "tools" to solve them. A great many IB math teachers do incorporate more of the content AP provides -- a few hours' worth is all that's needed - and students can, if they wish, take the AP test (AB or BC, depending on whether they took IB SL or HL).

You might want to contact Mr. Sharp at South Lakes to determine if the math program there would benefit your son.

MIT, btw, offers 12 credits for an AP BC Calc score of 5 or an IB HL score of 7. However, it is rare that MIT allows any student to skip the fundamental BC calc course no matter what program a student was in or score a student gets. There are exceptions, of course, but these are for the tiny few who can demonstrate proficiency by various means.

I'd also argue that your case is very unusual. While Fairfax can pride itself on a highly intelligent and successful and college-educated populace as a percentage of the total, only a tiny percentage of those have the intense math focus you and your son apparently do. So it could be argued that no school -- AP nor IB -- should gear its entire course programming just to benefit such a small population. For example, hardly any AP or IB school provides the highest level Physics classes or math classes available in the course listings -- by which I mean actually PROVIDES it as opposed to puts it in the course offering list.

Maybe one day we'll be there - where all these highest-level courses are routinely filled at every school. We're not there yet - not at any school (except TJ, which doesn't count because it's a Governor's School and not in the same league as any other NoVa school).

The most important argument South Lakes is making (apart from reducing the percentages of FRM kids - see discussion earlier) is that it cannot fill even the basic AP-level (HL) or honors-level (SL) courses that its sister schools do, or it has to combine them (unheard of at AP schools), nor can it offer the same ratio of high-quality electives they do - because they only have about 1,100 students able to take them. (The rest of the population is MMR or on the high end of ESOL needs).

With 700 or so more kids over the next four years, here's what can happen. The first wave of kids (say 175) next year will have all of the gen ed and honors courses available to them and the chance to sign up for any of the offered electives. Their numbers will raise the probability that the electives they sign up for will, in fact, be provided. (The core courses definitely will be offered.) Their interests will, in fact, drive the electives being provided.

You should know at this point in my explanation that Shannon Tulley, the registrar there, has told the community that she intends to keep registration open for all courses through the end of summer so that all incoming students will have equal access to them. Unless you have been involved in schools at this level, you would have no idea what an effort this entails. But she is highly experienced. In fact, she trains all the rest of Fairfax County administrators on how to manage and run master schedules. That is why she, of all people, knows that a minimum of 1,700 students is required for full scheduling availability and flexibility. And why she, of all people, knows why South Lakes needs to have these students.

If you don't believe me (and I know some won't), please contact the SLHS PTSA, the school administration, or her.

Moving on, the second wave will add another 175 for a total of 350, more provided electives, more probability that their core chosen classes (honors, gen ed, as at AP schools) will be filled and not combined.

The third wave will further increase all the choices because now you have a set of students ready to take the SL and HL IB courses. These no longer will need to be combined. There will be more students to fill the highest levels as well. Most students will take a few HL courses, some will go for the SL courses, some will go for the general ed courses. Same as at AP schools: AP, honors, gen ed.

The first year they get there, along with all students, they will meet with their counselors and with the IB coordinator and think about whether they want to pursue the diploma. This will mean some planning ahead to think about which courses they will want to pursue as Juniors and Seniors, but those decisions don't have to be addressed until 10th grade. If those thinking about an IB diploma need to add a year of language or math, they will be helped with ways to do that. But most will not need to because they are likely to have taken a language and Algebra in 8th grade. That, at least, is what history shows.

In fact, a student can go ahead and decide to pursue a diploma as early as they want to, and decide as late as the middle of Senior year not to complete it. They still get credit for any tests, etc. And as a writer noted above, the diploma doesn't make any difference in college admissions, though colleges do like to see that students are candidates for it.

Keep this mind mind: Students at AP schools serious about going to selective colleges will be pursuing a full array of AP course, and they will be doing just about everything else that would otherwise be required for an IB diploma. They will be volunteering in their communities, doing sports or arts programs, and/or taking music lessons etc.; they will be taking interesting and challenging electives (like Theory of Knowledge); they will be doing their best writing and/or research in all their classes (like the extended essay, which begins in Junior year on a topic of the student's choice). So these students are very likely going to be doing everything expected of an IB diploma candidate anyway. For them, the IB diploma is not only a reachable goal, but a motivational goal.

Also remember: The full "IB" curriculum begins (generally) in 11th grade. Just as almost all AP courses are taken in 11th or 12th grade. There are exceptional students at both types of schools who start AP/IB earlier. So, think of 9th and 10th grade as offering "honors" and "gen ed" at both types of schools. That is, in fact, what happens.

For all the other students, they will be taking those individual IB courses (HL) just as they would AP courses, or honors courses (SL). There are plenty of kids at South Lakes who entered in the middle of their high school years without the benefit of IB, and picked it up and ran with it right away. There are kids at Herndon from IB schools who fit right into the AP mix. No big deal. Really!

I hope some of this helps those with an open mind who really do want to know what to expect with IB.

Quantum: As I was crafting my IB response, you posted your info. I look forward to reading and digesting the dialogue. But it's getting to be my bedtime. More later, I hope.

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> word Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before,
> > but why not a magnet school for troubled kids
> or
> > underachievers as the solution to SL woes?
> >
> > The good students from SL could be sent to
> > surrounding schools, and the problem students
> of
> > surrounding schools could be sent to SL. This
> > would eliminate the distractions and burden on
> > teacher resources at good schools. SL could be
> > sort of like the Bryant Alternative High School
> > only for high school age kids. SL could
> > concentrate full-time on bringing the
> > underachievers up to speed.
>
>
> I don't usually feed trolls but I thought I'd
> point out something to you. You posted from your
> Blackberry, "I'll be speaking in 15 minutes" to
> the SB at the public meeting 1/30. That would
> have put your time at around 8:30 pm. It would
> probably be real easy for anyone who wanted to
> figure out who you really are. It won't be me, I
> don't care who you are, but I thought you might
> want to consider that when you post here.


Who cares??


do you really believe everything you read? word could have been standing in line at McDonald's for all you know.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Misinformation is not the word I would choose. It
> does seem a bit imbalanced for FCPS to include a
> sixteen-page booklet published by IB in an
> FCPS-produced "Advanced Placement And
> International Baccalaureate Fact Book," yet
> include nothing from the College Board about AP.
> Why not include course-by-course,
> credit-by-credit, and dollar-for-dollar
> comparisons?

Because IB is far more expensive than AP and FCPS hates to have reality interfere with their predjudices.

I checked the record and it looks like I'm an SL student

-------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld

>>>Jack also told us that they will not be provided with bus service. Is this consistent with their policy?<<<

Yes. The policy allows for pupil placement but does not provide transportation. As it is now, if your base school is South Lakes, but you want to attend Herndon, you must provide transportation. They aren't going to send a bus for you pupil placed child. But for students who are redistricted, but pupil placed back to their original school, the buses will still be running for their older siblings and other neighborhood kids. I can't imagine that they would prevent pupil placed students from getting on the buses. Do they even check? If the 9th grader shows up at the bus stop with everyone else, who would know the difference? Parents who want to pupil place back into Oakton or Westfield shouldn't have a problem since the buses will continue to run through their neighborhoods for the next 3 years.

WestfieldMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Misinformation is not the word I would choose.
> It
> > does seem a bit imbalanced for FCPS to include
> a
> > sixteen-page booklet published by IB in an
> > FCPS-produced "Advanced Placement And
> > International Baccalaureate Fact Book," yet
> > include nothing from the College Board about
> AP.
> > Why not include course-by-course,
> > credit-by-credit, and dollar-for-dollar
> > comparisons?
>
> Because IB is far more expensive than AP and FCPS
> hates to have reality interfere with their
> predjudices.

Well said. But I thought FCPS was in a budget crunch with class size rising to an average of 30 students in high school? I suppose IB is more important than class size?

Thomas More Wrote:

>
> In 2001, the SL seniors who had been taught in an
> AP school were third in the County in SATs.
>
> I do not believe there is a correlationship
> because I have concluded, after 30 years of
> admission volunteering for a elite school in the
> northeast, that SATs are merely a surrogate for
> the economic class of the individual student.
> Thus, aggregating SAT scores by school is
> meanless.
>
> Further, any admissions officer will tell you that
> a difference of 50 points between students is
> meanless.
>
> When Conant invented the SAT, he was trying to
> create a metric that would predict the success of
> incoming freshman at Harvard, so as to open
> Harvard to students who hadn't gone to a small
> number of ritzy prep schools.
>
> Today, because upper class families have figured
> out how to game the SATs, it has lost all of its
> predictive functionality.
>
> That's why the Regents of the UCal system and
> others have threatened or decided to drop SATs
> from from admission criteria.

The SAT is a test, while not absolutely predictive of success, that does measure vocabulary, reading ability, reasoning ability, and facility with algebraic and geometric concepts. There has been a lot of howling about cultural bias in the test, but I have never seen the slightest evidence of any question in it having a cultural bias.

Yes, a 50 point difference by itself between two candidates will not make a difference to an admissions committee member. However, all other things being equal, it would be naive to think that 50 points does NOT make a difference.

Not sure what you mean by rich families "gaming" the system, unless you are referring to preparatory courses. I believe that paying attention in classes has a far far greater impact on the scores than the prep courses because they do measure what you are able to understand and reason (full disclosure: I have personally never taken one and nor have my kids).

I am saying all this because in the end, the performance numbers do matter. Without them there really is no objective way to make judgements. Do you have any rigorous evidence that the scores are not, on a statistical basis, predictive of student success?

With no disrespect to SL and its community, the relative performance numbers are out there for all to see. Not that objectivity means anything in THIS mess.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before,
> but why not a magnet school for troubled kids or
> underachievers as the solution to SL woes?
>
> The good students from SL could be sent to
> surrounding schools, and the problem students of
> surrounding schools could be sent to SL. This
> would eliminate the distractions and burden on
> teacher resources at good schools. SL could be
> sort of like the Bryant Alternative High School
> only for high school age kids. SL could
> concentrate full-time on bringing the
> underachievers up to speed.


The county has two schools like this already -- Cedar Lane and Quander Road. Woodson also has a center within the school to encourage mainstreaming. Cedar Lane and Quander Road have relatively small populations, but a lot of faculty. To fill a school full of 2,000 students with issues would require TONS of security. Great idea, though.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the SAT remains, as imperfect as it is, a good
> predictor of college success, in fact, sadly
> better than almost any other predictor

Actually studies have shown that the best predictor of college freshman success is the grades received junior year in high school. That's why colleges throughout the country are dropping reliance on the SAT or the ACT; not for the ideological motivation you ascribe to them.

> (the preparation assertion is a good one - scores do
> improve with preparation

Preparation for what? I haven't taken a multiple guess exam in 30 years. Test taking is a skill of no value in the adult world.

> That problem has proven to be an intractable one,

You've written this multiple times and even cited a study or two to support this. However, given the multiple forms of intelligence and the obvious success of large segments of people of color in our society, it's hard to give these conclusions a credence that would shape educational policy.

There is something here that is troubling and requires better understanding. I research this issue more whenever I can.

> One argument that you do not make, although I
> think you imply it, is that putting too much
> emphasis on the SAT may discourage somewhat lesser
> students (especially minority students initially
> in the 900-1000 range on the "old" SAT) from
> taking the test.

Didn't imply it.

> In terms of developing test
> taking and analytic skills, the test has value -

Disagree - see above. So much of what high school educators do has no translation to the adult world.

E.g., make work home work every night that is graded yet serves no productive purpose other than to penalize, mostly boys, who find it boring and stultifying but whose grades suffer despite getting A's on the test and quizzes, yet the grade on the transcript is a C. Those boys are now in colleges making deans list but at slightly less prestigious colleges than they might have gotten into with the test and quiz scores.

What did that course of homework prove other than that a control freak teacher was intent on punishing boys who saw the make work non-sense for what it was. Does this student have anything but suspicious revulsion for all authority, especially female authority figures.

Its just one example. There are so many others. Most of what our high schools do is more about mob control than educating, with the dehumanizing results that flow from that obsession.

> and its potential for improvement with study and
> preparation is a good thing - think how many times
> in professional life we must think both
> analytically and quickly under pressure, and
> taking the SAT simply is good practice.

Not really. Two answers can be immediately eliminated and its 50/50 which of the remaining two are correct. Thus one favorite technique taught by either Kaplan or Princeton is, when in doubt, to always pick "c".

> But in any event, the problems at South Lakes are
> not with SAT scores - more aptly, I would ascribe
> to the problems to those that do not take the SAT
> at all. This is, of course, a reasonably small
> minority - but don't think for a moment that this
> minority doesn't scare some parents away from the
> place, as unfair as that might be.

Which is foolish but understandable, a misapplication of the infection theory of social dysfunction.

nogoforme2late Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nogoforme Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > as a reminder, if you want to speak at the next
> > public school board meeting on the 19 of Feb.
> you
> > must sign up before the 4:30 on the 15th of Feb.
>
> > The 18th of Feb is a holiday.
>
> Sorry, but the speaker list was closed or filled
> by 4:30ish yesterday. If you were suspended in
> time on a 95 mixing bowl ramp or actually still at
> work, you got screwed. But if you were lucky
> enough to be at home watching Oprah or playing
> chess at Sunrise, then you might have had a
> chance.

Yet another insult to the community. Two brand new scenarios and only a few people can address them.

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> With no disrespect to SL and its community, the
> relative performance numbers are out there for all
> to see. Not that objectivity means anything in
> THIS mess.

Before I retire, I am obliged to respond to this. If your child is doing well at Oakton or Chantilly or Westfield, your child will do as well at South Lakes or Herndon or even Ballou. It is statistically dishonest to compare the lowest scores and the averages they affect with an individual's score. In other words, if your student would score 2200 on the SAT and the average at Pindock High was 1900, your student would score 2200.

Furthremore, a close review of achievement scores at South Lakes demonstrates that the lowest percentiles have been rising. (As I said earlier, if these students are a smaller percentage of the overall population, their rate of achievement likely will rise, as has been demonstrated in research over the last 40 years.)

I'm not sure why readers aren't getting this.

If you are arguing that the average is a reflection of the overall quality of teaching, and not the aggregate ability of individual students to achieve at different levels of challenge, then that is a mind-boggling assumption that must be backed up with evidence no one in these 200+ pages has provided that I know of. I'm sure FCPS staff would want to know that some members of the larger community believes South Lakes teachers are less than competent. But I am sure that is not what is meant. I believe, more likely, people here may not have remembered their high school statistics.

Ms. Achievement...

for today's final question in double jeopardy...

...if students perform about as well no matter what school they go to, why move them?

SLHS' class list is very comparable to other schools, and most kids will find the current SLHS offerings to be very compelling.

BTW, I meant: "If ONE was arguing..." I did not mean to imply that Another Brick was arguing this. It's getting late.

Right Hand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the school board limiting speakers at the
> next hearing to only those areas that are impacted
> by those 2 proposals? What does this mean between
> the lines?

It means they aren't really having a public hearing, but hearing only from those they want to hear from. I'd have to say that it is not good news for South Lakes supporters. SB is looking for backing for what they want to do, limit the number of students who are redistricted to limit political fallout. This reality is beginning to dawn on the SL folks.

Pupil placement. Several questions surround pupil placement.

The already filed pupil placement forms are being held until the Board's decision on 2/28.
Q: Will the students who have already submitted a Pupil Placement application stay at the head of the line while those students who were redistricted will fall at the end of the line?
Q: Students will be pupil placed (PP) to the nearest school close to the home. Forexample, if you go to Chantilly or to Westfield, but live nearer to Herndon, that will be the pupil placed option.
Q: I would not be surprised if the facilities dept does not permit students to ride on the bus if the school is not their base school.
Q: Remember, a PP request is not a "shoe in." There is an extensive process required before the decision is made. This is a yearly request.
Q: If the requested school is over or near capacity, will PP students be allowed to place out of their base school.

We must not sit back and think that we will be able to pupil place our kids out of SL.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I checked the record and it looks like I'm an SL
> student
>
> -------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld


C'mon dude, I'm sure I saw you. That's the only reason I mentioned it because I checked out this thread not long after I turned off the tube. You came on sometime around the time of the SL GS troop leader (before or after I can't remember), aging redneck looking dude, said something about putting Forrestville at Herndon and moving N. Reston to SL or something along those lines. Stand up! Take credit! That's your 15 minutes man!

Then again, as someone else noted, who cares.

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ms. Achievement...
>
> for today's final question in double jeopardy...
>
> ...if students perform about as well no matter
> what school they go to, why move them?
>
> SLHS' class list is very comparable to other
> schools, and most kids will find the current SLHS
> offerings to be very compelling.


Exactly. I was just now digesting all the information Achievement has recently posted. I am still stumped to as what additional courses SL is really seeking for, in particular the electives and what other courses if they have the current offerings is compelling. I mean what is going on here?

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ms. Achievement...
>
> for today's final question in double jeopardy...
>
> ...if students perform about as well no matter
> what school they go to, why move them?
>
> SLHS' class list is very comparable to other
> schools, and most kids will find the current SLHS
> offerings to be very compelling.

You're not letting me get to bed, are you? :-)

Please read the entirety of my post at the end of page 209. It contains an answer to your question. (I.e., SLHS is not able to PROVIDE the courses other schools do - or must combine them - because it has only 1,100 students to take them. But please do read it for context.) BTW, Herndon doesn't have the same problem because it has a much higher percentage of students who can take those courses (FRM included).

(Would it be possible for us to create "shortcut" answers, maybe acronyms, for those who have not kept up and need multiple iterations of explanations?)

>>>>Test taking is a skill of no value in the adult world.<<<

But it is of value in the college world.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ms. Achievement...
> >
> > for today's final question in double
> jeopardy...
> >
> > ...if students perform about as well no matter
> > what school they go to, why move them?
> >
> > SLHS' class list is very comparable to other
> > schools, and most kids will find the current
> SLHS
> > offerings to be very compelling.
>
> You're not letting me get to bed, are you? :-)
>
> Please read the entirety of my post at the end of
> page 209. It contains an answer to your question.
> (I.e., SLHS is not able to PROVIDE the courses
> other schools do - or must combine them - because
> it has only 1,100 students to take them. But
> please do read it for context.) BTW, Herndon
> doesn't have the same problem because it has a
> much higher percentage of students who can take
> those courses (FRM included).
>
> (Would it be possible for us to create "shortcut"
> answers, maybe acronyms, for those who have not
> kept up and need multiple iterations of
> explanations?)


Again, please explain where the 1,100 students are at? Is that only for the Gen Ed? I thought the student body was at around 1400+. Numbers seem to be changing all the time.

For Achievement when she wakes up..

I know all about the argument that more students should equal more classes...in practice, it doesn't make a huge difference. Check out schools with less than 1700 general education students in the county, they offer course lists very comparable to Oakton and Herndon, where "course list" means things actually taught.

The mantra that more students = lots more electives is just a hypothesis, and one that can be disproven fairly easily. The biggest impact of the new students is more people in / more sections of required classes, which is fine, but students already have access to required classes. The five or six new electives will matter only to the five to ten percent of students who sign up for them. Its just not worth it, when the education received today is already comparable.

"justinna" tried to helpfully sow some fear and doubt:

"We must not sit back and think that we will be able to pupil place our kids out of SL."

Too late...Betsy Goodman of staff (cluster 8 administrator, for SLHS, etc) already explained that, in fact, this option is available to all kids being reassigned to South Lakes. Any problems, take it up with her.

justinna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pupil placement. Several questions surround pupil
> placement.
>
> The already filed pupil placement forms are being
> held until the Board's decision on 2/28.
> Q: Will the students who have already submitted a
> Pupil Placement application stay at the head of
> the line while those students who were
> redistricted will fall at the end of the line?
> Q: Students will be pupil placed (PP) to the
> nearest school close to the home. Forexample, if
> you go to Chantilly or to Westfield, but live
> nearer to Herndon, that will be the pupil placed
> option.
> Q: I would not be surprised if the facilities
> dept does not permit students to ride on the bus
> if the school is not their base school.
> Q: Remember, a PP request is not a "shoe in."
> There is an extensive process required before the
> decision is made. This is a yearly request.
> Q: If the requested school is over or near
> capacity, will PP students be allowed to place out
> of their base school.
>
> We must not sit back and think that we will be
> able to pupil place our kids out of SL.

You can request a pupil placement at any school that is not over capacity. They do not have to provide transportation, but they do have to provide a reason if for denying pupil placement. I have not heard of a student being denied pupil placement. Nor have I heard of a pupil placed student being returned to his base school after a year or more at the new school. Since Oakton will have over 100 empty seats next year, all 9th graders redistricted from Fox Mill to SL could easily be accommodated.

Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The SAT is a test, while not absolutely predictive
> of success, that does measure vocabulary, reading
> ability, reasoning ability, and facility with
> algebraic and geometric concepts.

It has no correlation to college freshman performance. Google it and you'll see.

There has been
> a lot of howling about cultural bias in the test,
> but I have never seen the slightest evidence of
> any question in it having a cultural bias.

It has been demostrated by multiple stuies. College Board changed the questions to reduce this bias but haven't been able to eliminate it.

> Yes, a 50 point difference by itself between two
> candidates will not make a difference to an
> admissions committee member. However, all other
> things being equal, it would be naive to think
> that 50 points does NOT make a difference.

Well it doesn't. With thousands of files to review and a limited number of file readers, who generally are grad students on a work study job, with high rates of burn out and turn ouver, they break files out into three broad bands. within a certain range of GPA and SAT definitely in, another range definitely out, a narrow band of 10-20% of applicants actually get their essays read. After 30 years of doing this work, it's not me who is naive, sir. Most experts will tell you that a 50 point improvement on a second SAT is given little credence since it is within that range.

> Not sure what you mean by rich families "gaming"
> the system, unless you are referring to
> preparatory courses.

Exactly

> I believe that paying
> attention in classes has a far far greater impact
> on the scores than the prep courses because they
> do measure what you are able to understand and
> reason (full disclosure: I have personally never
> taken one and nor have my kids).

Now that would be naive.

> I am saying all this because in the end, the
> performance numbers do matter.

Yes the junior year GPA is the performance number that matters.

> Without them there really is no objective way to make judgements.

The world, especially the world of higher education, is a random place where chance plays a greater part than most of us want to admit.

> Do
> you have any rigorous evidence that the scores are
> not, on a statistical basis, predictive of student
> success?

Its widely accept within the higher education professinals. Feel free to google the issue. Atlantic Monthly ran a great series on the SAT a year or two ago that lays this all out.


> With no disrespect to SL and its community, the
> relative performance numbers are out there for all
> to see. Not that objectivity means anything in
> THIS mess.

But these numbers mean almost nothing to the individual student.

Just to be clear, I'm the parent of 4 SL students; one has graduated from college, one is at college, one is about to go and another will be at SL for 28 more months (yup, I counting down).

I believe SL needs 300 more kids, which should come from Aldrin and Armstrong, to have the same gen ed course selection as the other schools in FCPS.

Given the disproportionate numbers of teachers at SL I don't know why this isn't happening already with current student population but have some speculation.
I don't think much of the SL instructional staff or administration but they are as equally mediocre as the rest of FCPS.

Thomas More,
You are correct in that schools are not user friendly to boys.

http://www.kevincassell.com/blog/index.php?id=19&num=1

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>Test taking is a skill of no value in the
> adult world.<<<
>
> But it is of value in the college world.

What college do you know that lets professors use multiple guess for exams. What were all those blue books for?

Seriously, maybe there were a few such exams in a freshman survey course but after that? Except maybe the GRE, LSAT or MCATS.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I checked the record and it looks like I'm an SL
> student
>
> -------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld


and you are about to order a Quarter-Pounder, right?

Actually, if all of Floris, and all of Fox Mill were taken, and a full AP program was offered, not just one or two classes, it might be feasible...but the prejudiced attitude towards our communities would be hard to overcome at SLHS. The redistricting has driven a wedge between the communities that won't easily go away.

Review some basics of IB and AP
I. IB
(a) IB Standard (or Subsidiary) Level courses generally last one year and High Level (HL) courses generally last two years.

(b) Many students in IB schools take one or more IB courses without earning a full IB Diploma. Such IB courses are often taken as part of the normal K-12 sequence of courses.

(c) IB Diploma Candidates take a total of 6 IB courses, at least three and no more that four of which are High Level. They also complete 150 hours of "Community Action Service," write a 4,000 word essay, and take an additional course called "Theory of Knowledge."

II. AP
(a) Most AP courses last one year. A few AP classes are half-year courses and earn less credit. Such half-year courses are often combined to comprise a full year course. Example: US Government and Comparative Government, often combined and simply called AP Government with the students taking one or both exams.

(b) There are few limits on who may take an AP course. Anyone, for example, may sign up for AP Art History. Science, math, and English are taken as part of the normal K-12 sequence of courses.

(c) AP has its own form of an international diploma.
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/exgrd_intl.html
" The Advanced Placement International Diploma (APID) is a globally recognized certificate for students with an international outlook. The APID challenges a student to display exceptional achievement on AP Exams across several disciplines. Universities worldwide utilize the APID in admissions. ... To earn an APID, a student attending school within the United States must indicate on at least one AP Exam answer sheet that the results should be sent to a university outside the United States." The requirements are at least a "3" or above on five AP exams:
- Two AP Exams from two different languages selected from English and/OR world languages (so English Lit AND English Language covers it - no foreign language required)
- One AP Exam designated as offering a global perspective: World History, Human Geography, or Government and Politics: Comparative.
- One exam from the sciences OR mathematics content areas
- One (or two) additional exam(s) from among any content areas except English and world languages. They include history and social sciences and arts.

III. Costs
(a) Per the Budget response, "Currently, the actual cost of the AP exam is $84 to the public. FCPS has negotiated a contract with College Board to provide all AP tests at $74 for this year. ... The IB fees are more complicated. There is a registration fee of $123 and then each test costs $84. An IB diploma student takes 6 subject exams, Theory of Knowledge, and the extended essay for a total of 8 assessments at $84 each, plus the registration fee, for a total of $795. The cost for a student who takes only one IB exam is $207."

(b) Looked at another way, compare the cost of AP and IB last year:
SY 07 Data / AP / IB
Cost $2,121,723 / 2,010,662

(1)By the total number of students in IB and AP schools:
SY 07 Data / AP / IB
Cost per student in school, Gr 9-12 / $58.69 / $134.56

(2) By the cost per student who took at least one AP or IB exam:
SY 07 Data / AP / IB
Cost per Student who took at least one AP or IB exam / $153.13 / $936.93

(3) By cost per exam given:
SY 07 Data / AP / IB
Cost per exam / $74.19 / $366.37

(c) Again per FCPS, "The cost of professional, required training for IB and AP teachers is approximately the same when teachers attend workshops outside the county; most AP workshops are $600 per teacher and IB workshops are $550. Fairfax County does save some money by running our own AP Summer Institute to train approximately 250 FCPS AP teachers (the cost is about $450, but we also save travel expenses)." It should be noted that FCPS makes a profit from teaching the AP Teacher courses because the "Registration fee for non-Fairfax County teachers is $600." http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/OHSICS/advepd/api.htm

[Any questions or arguments so far?]

ParentOf4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, if all of Floris, and all of Fox Mill
> were taken, and a full AP program was offered, not
> just one or two classes, it might be
> feasible...but the prejudiced attitude towards our
> communities would be hard to overcome at SLHS. The
> redistricting has driven a wedge between the
> communities that won't easily go away.


But that would overcrowd South Lakes. So thats why they have to break up the elementary schools. Fox mill will not go without dragging Floris along with them (at least thats what someone mentioned here) And it is not just SL and the PTSA there, what about Stu and Kathy. Kathy is ready to kick Floris out of Westfields, I do not know if this is on Stu's insistence or she has some other motives. Stu we always knew was a slimy douchbag, but Kathy's behaviour is surprising.

Hello.
I was a Floris kid, and now I'm a Westfield kid.
I was just wondering, under the projected budget for the next year, do you think it is more than likely that the the board will kick out CURRENT high school students to different high schools because they may not have enough funding for two buses to be sent to one location?
Just wondering, and sorry if you already discussed this.

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIT (and anyone who wants a calm look at IB):
>
> Are you aware that IB math teachers can tailor
> their SL and HL courses so that they track the way
> AP does? Both SL and HL cover AP AB and BC calc,
> but do it in differing sequences and with
> different emphases. IB has a greater focus on
> statistics, but it also has a much greater focus
> on process - kids may get one or two big problems
> to solve and then must choose the most appropriate
> math "tools" to solve them. A great many IB math
> teachers do incorporate more of the content AP
> provides -- a few hours' worth is all that's
> needed - and students can, if they wish, take the
> AP test (AB or BC, depending on whether they took
> IB SL or HL).
>
> You might want to contact Mr. Sharp at South Lakes
> to determine if the math program there would
> benefit your son.
>
> MIT, btw, offers 12 credits for an AP BC Calc
> score of 5 or an IB HL score of 7. However, it is
> rare that MIT allows any student to skip the
> fundamental BC calc course no matter what program
> a student was in or score a student gets. There
> are exceptions, of course, but these are for the
> tiny few who can demonstrate proficiency by
> various means.
>
> I'd also argue that your case is very unusual.
> While Fairfax can pride itself on a highly
> intelligent and successful and college-educated
> populace as a percentage of the total, only a tiny
> percentage of those have the intense math focus
> you and your son apparently do. So it could be
> argued that no school -- AP nor IB -- should gear
> its entire course programming just to benefit such
> a small population. For example, hardly any AP or
> IB school provides the highest level Physics
> classes or math classes available in the course
> listings -- by which I mean actually PROVIDES it
> as opposed to puts it in the course offering list.
>
>
> Maybe one day we'll be there - where all these
> highest-level courses are routinely filled at
> every school. We're not there yet - not at any
> school (except TJ, which doesn't count because
> it's a Governor's School and not in the same
> league as any other NoVa school).
>
> The most important argument South Lakes is making
> (apart from reducing the percentages of FRM kids -
> see discussion earlier) is that it cannot fill
> even the basic AP-level (HL) or honors-level (SL)
> courses that its sister schools do, or it has to
> combine them (unheard of at AP schools), nor can
> it offer the same ratio of high-quality electives
> they do - because they only have about 1,100
> students able to take them. (The rest of the
> population is MMR or on the high end of ESOL
> needs).
>
> With 700 or so more kids over the next four years,
> here's what can happen. The first wave of kids
> (say 175) next year will have all of the gen ed
> and honors courses available to them and the
> chance to sign up for any of the offered
> electives. Their numbers will raise the
> probability that the electives they sign up for
> will, in fact, be provided. (The core courses
> definitely will be offered.) Their interests will,
> in fact, drive the electives being provided.
>
> You should know at this point in my explanation
> that Shannon Tulley, the registrar there, has told
> the community that she intends to keep
> registration open for all courses through the end
> of summer so that all incoming students will have
> equal access to them. Unless you have been
> involved in schools at this level, you would have
> no idea what an effort this entails. But she is
> highly experienced. In fact, she trains all the
> rest of Fairfax County administrators on how to
> manage and run master schedules. That is why she,
> of all people, knows that a minimum of 1,700
> students is required for full scheduling
> availability and flexibility. And why she, of all
> people, knows why South Lakes needs to have these
> students.
>
> If you don't believe me (and I know some won't),
> please contact the SLHS PTSA, the school
> administration, or her.
>
> Moving on, the second wave will add another 175
> for a total of 350, more provided electives, more
> probability that their core chosen classes
> (honors, gen ed, as at AP schools) will be filled
> and not combined.
>
> The third wave will further increase all the
> choices because now you have a set of students
> ready to take the SL and HL IB courses. These no
> longer will need to be combined. There will be
> more students to fill the highest levels as well.
> Most students will take a few HL courses, some
> will go for the SL courses, some will go for the
> general ed courses. Same as at AP schools: AP,
> honors, gen ed.
>
> The first year they get there, along with all
> students, they will meet with their counselors and
> with the IB coordinator and think about whether
> they want to pursue the diploma. This will mean
> some planning ahead to think about which courses
> they will want to pursue as Juniors and Seniors,
> but those decisions don't have to be addressed
> until 10th grade. If those thinking about an IB
> diploma need to add a year of language or math,
> they will be helped with ways to do that. But most
> will not need to because they are likely to have
> taken a language and Algebra in 8th grade. That,
> at least, is what history shows.
>
> In fact, a student can go ahead and decide to
> pursue a diploma as early as they want to, and
> decide as late as the middle of Senior year not to
> complete it. They still get credit for any tests,
> etc. And as a writer noted above, the diploma
> doesn't make any difference in college admissions,
> though colleges do like to see that students are
> candidates for it.
>
> Keep this mind mind: Students at AP schools
> serious about going to selective colleges will be
> pursuing a full array of AP course, and they will
> be doing just about everything else that would
> otherwise be required for an IB diploma. They will
> be volunteering in their communities, doing sports
> or arts programs, and/or taking music lessons
> etc.; they will be taking interesting and
> challenging electives (like Theory of Knowledge);
> they will be doing their best writing and/or
> research in all their classes (like the extended
> essay, which begins in Junior year on a topic of
> the student's choice). So these students are very
> likely going to be doing everything expected of an
> IB diploma candidate anyway. For them, the IB
> diploma is not only a reachable goal, but a
> motivational goal.
>
> Also remember: The full "IB" curriculum begins
> (generally) in 11th grade. Just as almost all AP
> courses are taken in 11th or 12th grade. There are
> exceptional students at both types of schools who
> start AP/IB earlier. So, think of 9th and 10th
> grade as offering "honors" and "gen ed" at both
> types of schools. That is, in fact, what happens.
>
> For all the other students, they will be taking
> those individual IB courses (HL) just as they
> would AP courses, or honors courses (SL). There
> are plenty of kids at South Lakes who entered in
> the middle of their high school years without the
> benefit of IB, and picked it up and ran with it
> right away. There are kids at Herndon from IB
> schools who fit right into the AP mix. No big
> deal. Really!
>
> I hope some of this helps those with an open mind
> who really do want to know what to expect with IB.

Hi Achievement

Thanks for your thoughtful note. I do not doubt much, if not all, of your post is accurate. But a few points in reply that I think may be worthy of consideration.

1. Your kind and thoughtful words struck me as gracefully dismissing my comments/concerns as irrelevant implying my family's background/interests are so unique as to be non-representative of a class of people who do not want IB or SL. I do not think you intended to do that, but that is how I reacted. Perhaps I misread your post...sorry. But to be clear, the math example is just an example that I offered because some IB advocates like to point out how MIT accepts HL...I do not dispute that. But if an IB advocate is going to hide behind the MIT flag, then it seems relevant to give some MIT perspective. MIT does not teach math or science or humanities (yes they teach humanities) in the IB manner. MIT teaches everything the way AP does, raised to the nth power. So does that little liberal arts college up the Charles River, Harvard. Same for Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Stanford. I do not know any name U.S. university that teaches like IB.

I know IB is different from AP in ways that some value. Bu to me, these differences are not plusses but are minuses... to the point of being a deal-breaker with respect to RD. I just do not buy all the interdisciplinary stuff. If I were in Europe, maybe...but not here. And, as is clear from the many posts on this site (some rabid and some lucid), many other potential draftees feel the same way.

1b. Otherwise, your characterization of the waves and indoctrination seemed reasonable. If the RD happens, the integration will likely unfold as you have projected.

2. My family has been emailing with Mr. Sharp. He is the contact to whom I was referring in my first note. Mr. Sharp has been kind with his time and information, but as of yet unpersuasive. As far as tailoring, I am sure he and others will do what they can. But they will not drop the 15 page paper or other IBO imposed requirements. I think the only paper a math student needs to write is a paper full of equations. I do not think prose belongs in math.

2a. In one of his emails to us, Mr. Sharp wrote something to the effect that the papers they write in math prepare them for university or careers in engineering. I do not know, but I wonder if he ever wrote such a paper in an engineering or academic environment. I know I never have. I have written dozens and dozens of papers, some published in IEEE. I have written a thesis (twice!). They were very focused on the topic at hand. I have asked him for an example of a "good" paper so I can wrap my head around just what he was talking about...still waiting.

2b. The whole idea of "theory of knowledge" is a turn-off to me. Here I confess ignorance....I dont know what it is. But from a marketing perspective, I gag. Maybe it needs another name. There is no such thing as a "theory of knowledge." There is a theory of relativity. There is a theory of evolution. There other scientific, economic and historical theories. With great fear of offending, or sounding like some other posts, it just sounds too much like psycho-babble. I lived through some experimental education as a kid...open classrooms, new math, etc. I would like to get the IB diploma drop theory of knowledge, the service requirement, and other things...just focus on the subjects.

3. There is no #3.

4. My bottom line is that I do not want to try stewed silk worm larva or IB. Advocates for stewed silk worm larva or IB can dress them up all they want, but I just do not want to try them, no matter how good they may be in the end. I am comfortable with popcorn and AP, and know I can get satisfaction from them. It is human nature to resist/resent having something shoved down your throat.

4a. I ask the advocates for IB to give the AP advocates their due. If the shoe were on the other foot, how would you feel? How would you feel if you were told you were going to Oakton or Herndon, and had to switch to AP? (Let alone send your younger kids to a different school than their older kids, but the human element of the story is the subject of another note.) Will some IB advocate answer this?

5. Next steps if RD happens? While nothing is guaranteed in life, it seems certain that if the RD happens, many of the new people assigned to SL will begin a campaign to replace IB with AP. I am not trying to be provocative or threatening here, just matter-of-fact. I think it is fair and reasonable for parents to join the PTA to try obtain programs they think are best for their kids. Any SL PTA parents out there with any civilized comments on the question of an IB-to-AP transition subcommittee, complete with parent surveys, cost-analyses, presentations by the AP and IB organizations etc.?

I want to throw something out there for people to chew on.

We know SL wants to keep the IB program. The targeted areas for RD have a lot of Non-white , mostly Asian population. Most of these kids are fairly good academically and that is why SL wants them. Here is what I am thinking,

FCPS for the next year or two comes up with a voucher system that will attract this targeted area kids to come to SL and join their state of the art IB program. If the word spreads out, and these kids are happy more kids will come and populate South Lakes with the warm bodies south lakes wants. The school board does not have to make this difficult RD decision now. They just have to open the door a little and kids who are interested in IB program will fill the school without any problems.

Any ideas/suggestions/criticism?

Achievement Wrote:

> Shannon Tulley, the registrar there, . . . knows that a minimum of 1,700
> students is required for full scheduling availability and flexibility.

SL is currently at 1400 kids. So it only needs another 300 to get the needed(?) course flexibility (why it doesn't have it now with the disproportionate student teacher ratio is a question that needs answering).

Therefore, SL doesn't need Floris AND Fox Mill to achieve this result.

Aldrin alone should do it.

Consider three forms of college recognition of AP and IB: admission, placement, and credit

1) Admission: In AP students begin taking may begin college level placement exams in tenth grade, most often world civ, which also fulfills an SOL requirement. It is common in FCPS AP high schools for students to take at couple more AP courses in their junior year (most often English language and US History). Thus when they apply for college they already have a proven track record, that they have done well on three or more college-level exams, that they can include on their college applications. In contrast, IB students rarely take ANY HL exams before senior year so do not have the same sort of track record.

2) Placement: AP EXAMS are used by many colleges as an indication of where a student should begin that college's sequence of courses in math, English, French, etc. Not all school systems prepare their students as well as FCPS for higher education. By taking and doing well on AP OR IB HL OR SAT II exams students can be placed in more rigorous classes while other students are in Freshman 101, taught by a TA.

3) Credit:
As has been said over and over, every college is different, but in general most colleges award credit for good scores on AP and on IB HL exams, even without a full IB Diploma. Rarely is credit awarded for SL exams. Look at what three top public Virginia Universities say:
(a) VA Tech
http://www.undergradcatalog.registrar.vt.edu/0708/admissinfo.html#Anchor-Advanced-35326
"*A Maximum of 3 semester credits (or 4 with lab) from subsidiary level courses are allowed, but only with an IB Diploma."

"Up to 38 semester credit hours may be granted for those earning the IB diploma, and up to 30 semester credit hours for those without the IB diploma."

"Credits allowed for advanced placement are shown as transfer hours on Hokie SPA. These credits, not to exceed 38 semester hours, are counted as hours passed when considering academic eligibility."

(b) UVA:
http://records.ureg.virginia.edu/content.php?catoid=11&navoid=176#adva_plac_prog
UVA College of arts and sciences: "The College of Arts and Sciences offers possible credit for scores of 5, 6, or 7 on most higher-level I.B. examinations. No credit is awarded for standard-level examinations"

(c) William and Mary:
http://www.wm.edu/admission/downloads/APIBsheet2006.pdf
Sure looks like they only give credit for HL IB and AP courses.

imabulldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello.
> I was a Floris kid, and now I'm a Westfield kid.
> I was just wondering, under the projected budget
> for the next year, do you think it is more than
> likely that the the board will kick out CURRENT
> high school students to different high schools
> because they may not have enough funding for two
> buses to be sent to one location?
> Just wondering, and sorry if you already discussed
> this.


sorry son,

if you're a troll then its time for bed

if you really are a student - email your board member, the chair or even a real politician and ask "what the h***'s going on"

the lunatics have taken over the asylum and to hell with due process, equal protection and any sensible math

get with the program - alice is in the house

if you want to understand this process, I can only recommend 'apocolyspse now, redux' - just ask for kurtz

MIT grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 2b. The whole idea of "theory of knowledge" is a
> turn-off to me. Here I confess ignorance....I
> dont know what it is. But from a marketing
> perspective, I gag. Maybe it needs another name.
> There is no such thing as a "theory of knowledge."

It's actually an entire branch of philosophy called epistomology. Somewhat obscure but any scientist should be familiar with the notion that observing a phenomenon invariably affects the phenomenon. It's stuff like that.

I doubt TOK is getting very deeply into this in an after school class.

> I think it is fair and
> reasonable for parents to join the PTA to try
> obtain programs they think are best for their
> kids. Any SL PTA parents out there with any
> civilized comments on the question of an IB-to-AP
> transition subcommittee, complete with parent
> surveys, cost-analyses, presentations by the AP
> and IB organizations etc.?

I've been proposing exactly that on this forum too many times to count. Still waiting for anyone from SLPTA, his craveness or Bruce to agee. I'm only going to stick around for another 28 months, but if you're game so and I.

heart of darkness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> imabulldog Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hello.
> > I was a Floris kid, and now I'm a Westfield
> kid.
> > I was just wondering, under the projected
> budget
> > for the next year, do you think it is more than
> > likely that the the board will kick out CURRENT
> > high school students to different high schools
> > because they may not have enough funding for
> two
> > buses to be sent to one location?
> > Just wondering, and sorry if you already
> discussed
> > this.
>
>
> sorry son,
>
> if you're a troll then its time for bed
>
> if you really are a student - email your board
> member, the chair or even a real politician and
> ask "what the h***'s going on"
>
> the lunatics have taken over the asylum and to
> hell with due process, equal protection and any
> sensible math
>
> get with the program - alice is in the house
>
> if you want to understand this process, I can only
> recommend 'apocolyspse now, redux' - just ask for
> kurtz


... what?
And my board member won't talk. I'll just wait 2 more weeks and see what goes down, I guess. I'm one of those kids who has been redistricted like 6 times, so this is really nothing new to me. However, if they switch me back to Oakton from Westfield, I won't really care as much because that's where I was supposed to go before Westfield was built.

imabulldog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ... what?
> And my board member won't talk. I'll just wait 2
> more weeks and see what goes down, I guess. I'm
> one of those kids who has been redistricted like 6
> times, so this is really nothing new to me.
> However, if they switch me back to Oakton from
> Westfield, I won't really care as much because
> that's where I was supposed to go before Westfield
> was built.

go back to your Conrad...

lesson 1, - they don't give a damn unless you make them

think about who they care about and what they care about

Achievement Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Brick in the Wall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > With no disrespect to SL and its community, the
> > relative performance numbers are out there for
> all
> > to see. Not that objectivity means anything in
> > THIS mess.
>
> Before I retire, I am obliged to respond to this.
> If your child is doing well at Oakton or Chantilly
> or Westfield, your child will do as well at South
> Lakes or Herndon or even Ballou. It is
> statistically dishonest to compare the lowest
> scores and the averages they affect with an
> individual's score. In other words, if your
> student would score 2200 on the SAT and the
> average at Pindock High was 1900, your student
> would score 2200.
>
I never said that. I expect my kids will do well wherever they go.

> Furthremore, a close review of achievement scores
> at South Lakes demonstrates that the lowest
> percentiles have been rising. (As I said earlier,
> if these students are a smaller percentage of the
> overall population, their rate of achievement
> likely will rise, as has been demonstrated in
> research over the last 40 years.)
>
> I'm not sure why readers aren't getting this.
>
They are rising, that is good. But they remain behind.

> If you are arguing that the average is a
> reflection of the overall quality of teaching, and
> not the aggregate ability of individual students
> to achieve at different levels of challenge, then
> that is a mind-boggling assumption that must be
> backed up with evidence no one in these 200+ pages
> has provided that I know of. I'm sure FCPS staff
> would want to know that some members of the larger
> community believes South Lakes teachers are less
> than competent. But I am sure that is not what is
> meant. I believe, more likely, people here may not
> have remembered their high school statistics.

I'm arguing that SL has some cultural issues, and by that I don't mean race. You are obviously in the administration there, so you are close to this. But sometimes you can be so close to something you cannot see the pattern. The fact that you don't acknowledge that the numbers matter indicates that you and your peers within the administration shun judgements that might indicate failure. And that might damage someone's self esteem.

Education does not come from boosting self esteem. It comes from putting in the work (and i don't mean the busy work), both on the part of the student and the teachers. Tests are a way to measure how much learning happened, whether that is mastery of a subject or mastery of analytic skills. To deny that test numbers matter is to say that measurement does not matter.

I can tell you that in the real world the numbers matter. If I don't make my numbers, I am out of a job. That is how the world works, and the schools need to prepare the next generation for competition in the real world. We're not living on farms anymore.

When I start hearing that the principal is embracing competition, is truly holding teachers and students accountable for their performance on a objectively measurable basis, and is instilling processes and an attitude focused on continuous improvement across the board, then I will be convinced that SL is on the right track. And while it is good to see improvement, it is the absolute results that matter. I'm from Missouri -- show me.

Right now, the numbers show that the aggregate performance of Stuart far exceeds that of SL on a demographic-adjusted basis. To not acknowledge that is to be in denial.

It might be a much better sales pitch for SL to talk about the rigor of the programs and of the administration (if it were indeed true), than it is to talk about the facility, the diversity and how much good this RD is doing for the underachievers. That would be much more appealing to the parents of high achievers than the message that is being sent. TJ has been a dump for years, and they have a long list of people trying to get in.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIT grad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > 2b. The whole idea of "theory of knowledge" is
> a
> > turn-off to me. Here I confess ignorance....I
> > dont know what it is. But from a marketing
> > perspective, I gag. Maybe it needs another
> name.
> > There is no such thing as a "theory of
> knowledge."
>
> It's actually an entire branch of philosophy
> called epistomology. Somewhat obscure but any
> scientist should be familiar with the notion that
> observing a phenomenon invariably affects the
> phenomenon. It's stuff like that.
>
> I doubt TOK is getting very deeply into this in an
> after school class.
>
Wow...thanks for the tip. I went to Wikipedia (notoriously unreliable but readily accessible). Read the following and ask if this is what you want your kid to study in school?

The best part is at the very end:

Far from being purely academic, the study of epistemology is useful for a great many applications. It is particularly commonly employed in issues of law where proof of guilt or innocence may be required, or when it must be determined whether a person knew a particular fact before taking a specific action (e.g., whether an action was premeditated).

Another veil lifted...I am also an attorney! I have never used the gobbledy-gook below. I can only imagine a judge's reaction. Maybe one of the sides of the debate can use this if this actually goes to court.


----------------

Epistemology or theory of knowledge is a branch of philosophy concerned with the nature and scope of knowledge.[1] The term was introduced into English by the Scottish philosopher James Frederick Ferrier (1808-1864).[2]
Much of the debate in this field has focused on analyzing the nature of knowledge and how it relates to similar notions such as truth, belief, and justification. It also deals with the means of production of knowledge, as well as skepticism about different knowledge claims. In other words, epistemology primarily addresses the following questions: "What is knowledge?", "How is knowledge acquired?", and "What do people know?"

The primary question that epistemology addresses is "What is knowledge?". This question is several millennia old.


Distinguishing knowing that from knowing how
In this article, and in epistemology in general, the kind of knowledge usually discussed is propositional knowledge, also known as "knowledge-that" as opposed to "knowledge-how". For example: in mathematics, it is known that 2 + 2 = 4, but there is also knowing how to add two numbers. Many (but not all) philosophers thus think there is an important distinction between "knowing that" and "knowing how", with epistemology primarily interested in the former. This distinction is recognised linguistically in many languages, though not in modern English except as dialect (see verbs "ken" and "wit" in the Shorter Oxford Dictionary).[3] In Personal Knowledge, Michael Polanyi articulates a case for the epistemological relevance of both forms of knowledge; using the example of the act of balance involved in riding a bicycle, he suggests that the theoretical knowledge of the physics involved in maintaining a state of balance cannot substitute for the practical knowledge of how to ride, and that it is important to understand how both are established and grounded.

Belief
Main article: Belief
Often, statements of "belief" mean that the speaker predicts something that will prove to be useful or successful in some sense — perhaps the speaker might "believe in" his or her favorite football team. This is not the kind of belief usually addressed within epistemology. The kind that is dealt with is when "to believe something" simply means any cognitive content held as true. For example, to believe that the sky is blue is to think that the proposition, "The sky is blue," is true.
Knowledge implies belief. The statement "I know P, but I don't believe that P is true" is contradictory. To know P is, among other things, to believe that P is true, or to believe in P. (See the article on Moore's paradox.) Knowing That and Knowing How are just two aspects of knowledge proper.


Truth
Main article: Truth
See also: Criteria of truth
If someone believes something, he or she thinks that it is true but may be mistaken. This is not the case with knowledge. For example, a man thinks that a particular bridge is safe enough to support him, and he attempts to cross it; unfortunately, the bridge collapses under his weight. It could be said that the man believed that the bridge was safe, but that his belief was mistaken. It would not be accurate to say that he knew that the bridge was safe, because plainly it was not. By contrast, if the bridge actually supported his weight then he would be justified in subsequently holding that he knew the bridge had been safe enough for his passage, at least at that particular time. For something to count as knowledge, it must actually be true.
The Aristotelian definition of truth states:
"To say of something which is that it is not, or to say of something which is not that it is, is false. However, to say of something which is that it is, or of something which is not that it is not, is true."

Justification
Plato
Main article: Theaetetus (dialogue)
In Plato's dialogue Theaetetus, Socrates considers a number of theories as to what knowledge is, the last being that knowledge is true belief that has been "given an account of" — meaning explained or defined in some way. According to the theory that knowledge is justified true belief, in order to know that a given proposition is true, one must not only believe the relevant true proposition, but one must also have a good reason for doing so. One implication of this would be that no one would gain knowledge just by believing something that happened to be true. For example, an ill person with no medical training, but a generally optimistic attitude, might believe that he/she will recover from his/her illness quickly. Nevertheless, even if this belief turned out to be true, the patient would not have known that he/she would get well since his/her belief lacked justification. The definition of knowledge as justified true belief was widely accepted until the 1960s. At this time, a paper written by the American philosopher Edmund Gettier provoked widespread discussion. See theories of justification for other views on the idea.

The Gettier problem
Main article: Gettier problem
In 1963 Edmund Gettier called into question the theory of knowledge that had been dominant among philosophers for thousands of years[4]. In a few pages, Gettier argued that there are situations in which one's belief may be justified and true, yet fail to count as knowledge. That is, Gettier contended that while justified belief in a proposition is necessary for that proposition to be known, it is not sufficient. As in the diagram above, a true proposition can be believed by an individual but still not fall within the "knowledge" category (purple region).
According to Gettier, there are certain circumstances in which one does not have knowledge, even when all of the above conditions are met. Gettier proposed two thought experiments, which have come to be known as "Gettier cases", as counterexamples to the classical account of knowledge. One of the cases involves two men, Smith and Jones, who are awaiting the results of their applications for the same job. Each man has ten coins in his pocket. Smith has excellent reasons to believe that Jones will get the job and, furthermore, knows that Jones has ten coins in his pocket (he recently counted them). From this Smith infers, "the man who will get the job has ten coins in his pocket." However, Smith is unaware that he has ten coins in his own pocket. Furthermore, Smith, not Jones, is going to get the job. While Smith has strong evidence to believe that Jones will get the job, he is wrong. Smith has a justified true belief that a man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job; however, according to Gettier, Smith does not know that a man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job, because Smith's belief is "...true by virtue of the number of coins in Smith's pocket, while Smith does not know how many coins are in Smith's pocket, and bases his belief...on a count of the coins in Jones's pocket, whom he falsely believes to be the man who will get the job."(see [4] p.122.)

Responses to Gettier
The responses to Gettier have been varied. Usually, they have involved substantive attempts to provide a definition of knowledge different from the classical one, either by recasting knowledge as justified true belief with some additional fourth condition, or as something else altogether.

Infallibilism, indefeasibility
In one response to Gettier, the American philosopher Richard Kirkham has argued that the only definition of knowledge that could ever be immune to all counterexamples is the infallibilist one.[citation needed] To qualify as an item of knowledge, so the theory goes, a belief must not only be true and justified, the justification of the belief must necessitate its truth. In other words, the justification for the belief must be infallible. (See Fallibilism, below, for more information.)
Yet another possible candidate for the fourth condition of knowledge is indefeasibility. Defeasibility theory maintains that there should be no overriding or defeating truths for the reasons that justify one's belief. For example, suppose that person S believes they saw Tom Grabit steal a book from the library and uses this to justify the claim that Tom Grabit stole a book from the library. A possible defeater or overriding proposition for such a claim could be a true proposition like, "Tom Grabit's identical twin Sam is currently in the same town as Tom." So long as no defeaters of one's justification exist, a subject would be epistemically justified.
The Indian philosopher B K Matilal has drawn on the Navya-Nyaya fallibilism tradition to respond to the Gettier problem. Nyaya theory distinguishes between know p and know that one knows p - these are different events, with different causal conditions. The second level is a sort of implicit inference that usually follows immediately the episode of knowing p (knowledge simpliciter). The Gettier case is analyzed by referring to a view of Gangesha (13th c.), who takes any true belief to be knowledge; thus a true belief acquired through a wrong route may just be regarded as knowledge simpliciter on this view. The question of justification arises only at the second level, when one considers the knowledgehood of the acquired belief. Initially, there is lack of uncertainty, so it becomes a true belief. But at the very next moment, when the hearer is about to embark upon the venture of knowing whether he knows p, doubts may arise. "If, in some Gettier-like cases, I am wrong in my inference about the knowledgehood of the given occurrent belief (for the evidence may be pseudo-evidence), then I am mistaken about the truth of my belief -- and this is in accord with Nyaya fallibilism: not all knowledge-claims can be sustained." [5]

Reliabilism
Main article: Reliabilism
Reliabilism is a theory advanced by philosophers such as Alvin Goldman according to which a belief is justified (or otherwise supported in such a way as to count towards knowledge) only if it is produced by processes that typically yield a sufficiently high ratio of true to false beliefs. In other words, this theory states that a true belief counts as knowledge only if it is produced by a reliable belief-forming process.
Reliabilism has been challenged by Gettier cases. Another argument that challenges reliabilism, like the Gettier cases (although it was not presented in the same short article as the Gettier cases), is the case of Henry and the barn façades. In the thought experiment, a man, Henry, is driving along and sees a number of buildings that resemble barns. Based on his perception of one of these, he concludes that he has just seen barns. While he has seen one, and the perception he based his belief on was of a real barn, all the other barn-like buildings he saw were façades. Theoretically, Henry doesn't know that he has seen a barn, despite both his belief that he has seen one being true and his belief being formed on the basis of a reliable process (i.e. his vision), since he only acquired his true belief by accident.[citation needed]

Other responses
The American philosopher Robert Nozick has offered the following definition of knowledge:
S knows that P if and only if:
P;
S believes that P;
if P were false, S would not believe that P;
if P is true, S will believe that P. [6]
Nozick believed that the third subjunctive condition served to address cases of the sort described by Gettier. Nozick further claims this condition addresses a case of the sort described by D. M. Armstrong[7]: A father believes his son innocent of committing a particular crime, both because of faith in his son and (now) because he has seen presented in the courtroom a conclusive demonstration of his son's innocence. His belief via the method of the courtroom satisfies the four subjunctive conditions, but his faith-based belief does not. If his son were guilty, he would still believe him innocent, on the basis of faith in his son; this would violate the third subjunctive condition.
The British philosopher Simon Blackburn has criticized this formulation by suggesting that we do not want to accept as knowledge beliefs which, while they "track the truth" (as Nozick's account requires), are not held for appropriate reasons. He says that "we do not want to award the title of knowing something to someone who is only meeting the conditions through a defect, flaw, or failure, compared with someone else who is not meeting the conditions."[citation needed]
Timothy Williamson, has advanced a theory of knowledge according to which knowledge is not justified true belief plus some extra condition(s). In his book Knowledge and its Limits, Williamson argues that the concept of knowledge cannot be analyzed into a set of other concepts—instead, it is sui generis. Thus, though knowledge requires justification, truth, and belief, the word "knowledge" can't be, according to Williamson's theory, accurately regarded as simply shorthand for "justified true belief".

Externalism and internalism
Main article: Internalism and externalism
Part of the debate over the nature of knowledge is a debate between epistemological externalists on the one hand, and epistemological internalists on the other. Externalists think that factors deemed "external", meaning outside of the psychological states of those who gain knowledge, can be conditions of knowledge. For example, an externalist response to the Gettier problem is to say that, in order for a justified, true belief to count as knowledge, it must be caused, in the right sort of way, by relevant facts. Such causation, to the extent that it is "outside" the mind, would count as an external, knowledge-yielding condition. Internalists, contrariwise, claim that all knowledge-yielding conditions are within the psychological states of those who gain knowledge.
René Descartes, prominent philosopher and supporter of internalism wrote that, since the only method by which we perceive the external world is through our senses, and that, since the senses are not infallible, we should not consider our concept of knowledge to be infallible. The only way to find anything that could be described as "infallibly true," he advocates, would be to pretend that an omnipotent, deceitful being is tampering with one's perception of the universe, and that the logical thing to do is to question anything that involves the senses. "Cogito ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am) is commonly associated with Descartes' theory, because he postulated that the only thing that he could not logically bring himself to doubt is his own existence: "I do not exist" is a contradiction in terms; the act of saying that one does not exist assumes that someone must be making the statement in the first place.

Acquiring knowledge

The second question that will be dealt with is the question of how knowledge is acquired. This area of epistemology covers what is called "the regress problem", issues concerning epistemic distinctions such as that between experience and apriority as means of creating knowledge. Further that between synthesis and analysis used as a means of proof, and debates such as the one between empiricists and rationalists.

The regress problem
Main article: Regress argument
Suppose we make a point of asking for a justification for every belief. Any given justification will itself depend on another belief for its justification, so one can also reasonably ask for this to be justified, and so forth. This appears to lead to an infinite regress, with each belief justified by some further belief. The apparent impossibility of completing an infinite chain of reasoning is thought by some to support skepticism. The skeptic will argue that since no one can complete such a chain, ultimately no beliefs are justified and, therefore, no one knows anything.

Response to the regress problem
Many epistemologists studying justification have attempted to argue for various types of chains of reasoning that can escape the regress problem.

Infinitism
Some philosophers, notably Peter Klein in his "Human Knowledge and the Infinite Regress of Reasons", have argued that it's not impossible for an infinite justificatory series to exist. This position is known as "infinitism". Infinitists typically take the infinite series to be merely potential, in the sense that an individual may have indefinitely many reasons available to him, without having consciously thought through all of these reasons. The individual need only have the ability to bring forth the relevant reasons when the need arises. This position is motivated in part by the desire to avoid what is seen as the arbitrariness and circularity of its chief competitors, foundationalism and coherentism.

Foundationalism
Foundationalists respond to the regress problem by claiming that some beliefs that support other beliefs do not themselves require justification by other beliefs. Sometimes, these beliefs, labeled "foundational", are characterized as beliefs that one is directly aware of the truth of, or as beliefs that are self-justifying, or as beliefs that are infallible. According to one particularly permissive form of foundationalism, a belief may count as foundational, in the sense that it may be presumed true until defeating evidence appears, as long as the belief seems to its believer to be true.[citation needed] Others have argued that a belief is justified if it is based on perception or certain a priori considerations.

Criticism of Foundationalism
The chief criticism of foundationalism is that it allegedly leads to the arbitrary or unjustified acceptance of certain beliefs.[citation needed]

Coherentism
Another response to the regress problem is coherentism, which is the rejection of the assumption that the regress proceeds according to a pattern of linear justification. To avoid the charge of circularity, coherentists hold that an individual belief is justified circularly by the way it fits together (coheres) with the rest of the belief system of which it is a part. This theory has the advantage of avoiding the infinite regress without claiming special, possibly arbitrary status for some particular class of beliefs. Yet, since a system can be coherent while also being wrong, coherentists face the difficulty in ensuring that the whole system corresponds to reality.

Foundherentism
There is also a position known as "foundherentism". Susan Haack is the philosopher who conceived it, and it is meant to be a unification of foundationalism and coherentism. One component of this theory is what is called the "analogy of the crossword puzzle". Whereas, say, infinists regard the regress of reasons as "shaped" like a single line, Susan Haack has argued that it is more like a crossword puzzle, with multiple lines mutually supporting each other.

A priori and a posteriori knowledge
Main article: A priori and a posteriori (philosophy)
The nature of this distinction has been disputed by various philosophers; however, the terms may be roughly defined as follows:
A priori knowledge is knowledge that is known independently of experience (that is, it is non-empirical).
A posteriori knowledge is knowledge that is known by experience (that is, it is empirical).

Analytic/synthetic distinction
Main article: Analytic/synthetic distinction
Some propositions are such that we appear to be justified in believing them just so far as we understand their meaning. For example, consider, "My father's brother is my uncle." We seem to be justified in believing it to be true by virtue of our knowledge of what its terms mean. Philosophers call such propositions "analytic". Synthetic propositions, on the other hand, have distinct subjects and predicates. An example of a synthetic proposition would be, "My father's brother has black hair." Kant held that all mathematical propositions are synthetic.
The American philosopher W. V. O. Quine, in his "Two Dogmas of Empiricism", famously challenged the distinction, arguing that the two have a blurry boundary.

Specific theories of knowledge acquisition
Empiricism
Main article: Empiricism
In philosophy, empiricism is generally a theory of knowledge emphasizing the role of experience, especially experience based on perceptual observations by the five senses. Certain forms treat all knowledge as empirical,[citation needed] while some regard disciplines such as mathematics and logic as exceptions.[citation needed]

Rationalism
Main article: Rationalism
Rationalists believe that knowledge is primarily (at least in some areas) acquired by a priori processes or is innate—e.g., in the form of concepts not derived from experience. The relevant theoretical processes often go by the name "intuition".[citation needed] The relevant theoretical concepts may purportedly be part of the structure of the human mind (as in Kant's theory of transcendental idealism), or they may be said to exist independently of the mind (as in Plato's theory of Forms).
The extent to which this innate human knowledge is emphasized over experience as a means to acquire knowledge varies from rationalist to rationalist. Some hold that knowledge of any kind can only be gained a priori,[citation needed] while others claim that some knowledge can also be gained a posteriori.[citation needed] Consequently, the borderline between rationalist epistemologies and others can be vague.

Constructivism
Main article: Constructivist epistemology
Constructivism is a view in philosophy according to which all knowledge is "constructed" in as much as it is contingent on convention, human perception, and social experience.[citation needed] Constructivism proposes new definitions for knowledge and truth that forms a new paradigm, based on inter-subjectivity instead of the classical objectivity and viability instead of truth. The constructivist point of view is pragmatic as Vico said: "the truth is to have made it".
It originated in sociology under the term "social constructionism" and has been given the name "constructivism" when referring to philosophical epistemology, though "constructionism" and "constructivism" are often used interchangeably.[citation needed]Constuctivism has also emerged in the field of International Relations, of which the writings of Alexander Wendt are most popular. Describing the characteristic nature of International reality marked by 'anarchy' he says, "anarchy is what states make of it."

What do people know?

The last question that will be dealt with is the question of what people know. At the heart of this area of study is skepticism, with many approaches involved trying to disprove some particular form of it.

Skepticism
Main article: Philosophical skepticism
Skepticism is related to the question of whether certain knowledge is possible. Skeptics argue that the belief in something does not necessarily justify an assertion of knowledge of it. In this skeptics oppose foundationalism, which states that there have to be some basic beliefs that are justified without reference to others. The skeptical response to this can take several approaches. First, claiming that "basic beliefs" must exist, amounts to the logical fallacy of argument from ignorance combined with the slippery slope. While a foundationalist would use Münchhausen Trilemma as a justification for demanding the validity of basic beliefs, a skeptic would see no problem with admitting the result.
This short section requires expansion.
Responses to skepticism
Fallibilism
Main article: Fallibilism
For most of philosophical history, "knowledge" was taken to mean belief that was true and justified to an absolute certainty.[citation needed] Early in the 20th century, however, the notion that belief had to be justified as such to count as knowledge lost favour. Fallibilism is the view that knowing something does not entail certainty regarding it.
This short section requires expansion.
Practical applications

Far from being purely academic, the study of epistemology is useful for a great many applications. It is particularly commonly employed in issues of law where proof of guilt or innocence may be required, or when it must be determined whether a person knew a particular fact before taking a specific action (e.g., whether an action was premeditated).

heart Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> imabulldog Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > ... what?
> > And my board member won't talk. I'll just wait
> 2
> > more weeks and see what goes down, I guess. I'm
> > one of those kids who has been redistricted like
> 6
> > times, so this is really nothing new to me.
> > However, if they switch me back to Oakton from
> > Westfield, I won't really care as much because
> > that's where I was supposed to go before
> Westfield
> > was built.
>
> go back to your Conrad...
>
> lesson 1, - they don't give a damn unless you make
> them
>
> think about who they care about and what they care
> about

They'll cared when they get sued by stoprd.org, won't they?

imabulldog Wrote:

> They'll cared when they get sued by stoprd.org,
> won't they?


only if stoprd have the b***s for it

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Achievement Wrote:
>
> > Shannon Tulley, the registrar there, . . . knows
> that a minimum of 1,700
> > students is required for full scheduling
> availability and flexibility.
>
> SL is currently at 1400 kids. So it only needs
> another 300 to get the needed(?) course
> flexibility (why it doesn't have it now with the
> disproportionate student teacher ratio is a
> question that needs answering).
>
> Therefore, SL doesn't need Floris AND Fox Mill to
> achieve this result.
>
> Aldrin alone should do it.

Will Fox Mill alone do it? It's looking like the school board will move about 300 students, or 75 each year. I will guess that 20 to 25 of the 75 sill show up next year at South Lakes. The other 50 will pupil place back into Oakton and Madison, with some choosing private schools. After 4 years, South Lakes will be lucky to add an additional 100 students.

A very costly exercise for naught.

MIT Grad,
What makes this even more sad is that these poor kids are being told that this TOK course teaches them to think! Worse, their educated parents have also been convinced that this silly course is of value to high school students.

Is it ANY wonder that parents across the country prefer AP?

This redistricting is done, toast, finis. Stick a fork in it. SL will be lucky to get 25 new students in the fall.

MIT grad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > > There is no such thing as a "theory of knowledge."
> >
> > It's actually an entire branch of philosophy
> > called epistomology.
> >
> Wow...thanks for the tip.

You're welcome.

> Read the following and ask if this is what you want your kid to study in school?

Most philosophy majors struggle with it. So, no, I'd rather they spend more time on post Civil War U.S. history, especially the election of 1876 and the end of Reconstruction, the anarchist movement, the Robber Barons, the Progressive Movement. Little of which is covered in the IB history cycle.

> The best part is at the very end:
>
> Far from being purely academic, the study of epistemology is useful for a great > many applications. It is particularly commonly employed in issues of law , , ,
>
> Another veil lifted...I am also an attorney! I have never used the
> gobbledy-gook below. I can only imagine a judge's reaction.

You had to post the whole article? Really?

MIT grad, engineer & lawyer. I'm guesing patent law or former 1st baseman for MIT's baseball team.

Epistomology is helpful in "proof of fact" analysis, thus in framing objections based on relevance or materiality, also good for motions in limine.

Achievement Wrote:
> ... A great many IB math
> teachers do incorporate more of the content AP
> provides -- a few hours' worth is all that's
> needed - and students can, if they wish, take the
> AP test ...
> MIT, btw, offers 12 credits for an AP BC Calc
> score of 5 or an IB HL score of 7.

Too long a message to answer all at once, but what "can" happen and what "does" happen vary greatly.

In 05-06 a total of THREE South Lakes students took ANY AP exams.

In 06-07 in the entire county ONE students scored a "7" in HL math and ZERO scored a "7" in IB HL chemistry, biology, OR physics.

Thus SLHS and its IB program do NOT appear to be a good fit for an MIT-bound student

Thomas More said
Most philosophy majors struggle with it. So, no, I'd rather they spend more time on post Civil War U.S. history, especially the election of 1876 and the end of Reconstruction, the anarchist movement, the Robber Barons, the Progressive Movement. Little of which is covered in the IB history cycle.<<<<

AGREE!!!! High school kids are way too young, with too little life experience and too little knowledge of anything to understand this philosophy but they can understand the history of their country. Those who don't are destined to repeat it.

Personally, I think the period of 1800 to 1860 is very important to our history. How did our nation come to the point of a Civil War? But that's just me. I also think 1920 to 1945 was also rather important.

It wouldn't hurt high school kids to learn about how our democracy works, how capitalism works, and the basics of economics.

It's a shame that so many of our most vulnerable students are stuck without an AP program, and they won't learn the history of the country that they live in. But apparently no one in FCPS cares.

Achievement Wrote:
> ... hardly any AP or
> IB school provides the highest level Physics
> classes or math classes available in the course
> listings -- by which I mean actually PROVIDES it
> as opposed to puts it in the course offering list. ...
>
> The most important argument South Lakes is making ...
> is that it cannot fill
> even the basic AP-level (HL) or honors-level (SL)
> courses that its sister schools do, or it has to
> combine them (unheard of at AP schools), nor can
> it offer the same ratio of high-quality electives
> they do - because they only have about 1,100
> students able to take them. (The rest of the
> population is MMR or on the high end of ESOL
> needs).
>
Again I am responding to only a short part of your long message.

What do you mean "hardly any AP or IB school provides the highest level Physics classes or math classes available"? Several SLHS parents keep telling us to visit SHLS to see what is really going on - you need to take the same advice and see the physics and math courses being taught at AP schools. AP BC calculus is routinely taught, even at under-enrolled and "disadvantaged" Falls Church.

When you visit our other high schools be sure ask about the Special Ed / FRM / ESOL / and other "challenged" students who are taking honors and AP classes. ALL FPCS high schools (except TJ) have hundreds of students who face various challenges - why do you think South Lakes is unique? Perhaps the difference is we count ALL our students as having the ability to aim for "high-quality electives."

Achievement Wrote:

> ... over the next four years,
> here's what can happen. ...
>
> I hope some of this helps those with an open mind
> who really do want to know what to expect with IB.

-----------
Another poster or two has asked for a different scenario, for a return to AP. Envision this:

The whole RD is put on hold. This spring all communities that MIGHT be moved into South Lakes join with SLHS staff, students, and parents on an AP/IB Selection Committee. Everyone would explore the advantages and disadvantages of both programs, then pick one.

After the decision is made, families will be allowed another three weeks to arrange pupil placement.

If South Lakes wants to stay IB, OK, but ANY community that disagrees may opt out of ANY subsequent RD.

On the other hand, if SLHS decides to revert to AP, then all SLHS rising juniors and seniors are "grandfathered," meaning they keep their current programme.

All rising tenth graders (this year's freshmen) would be allowed to take IB classes at Marshall on an Academy basis. For those who stay, next year South Lakes would convert all 9th and 10th grade pre-IB courses to Honors or pre-AP courses. In particular, these courses would be added to South Lakes (descriptions taken from the course catalog for Oakton for next year):

PRE-AP ENGLISH 9 (113039)
(Formerly English 9 Honors)
Offered only as part of World Civilizations I in combination with Pre-AP World History and Geography I (221938)
Grades: 9 Credit: one
Prerequisite: English 8

PRE-AP WORLD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY 1 (221938)
Offered only as part of World Civilizations I in combination with Pre-AP English 9
(113039)
Grades: 9 Credit: one

PRE-AP ENGLISH 10 (114038)
(Formerly English 10 Honors)
(114039)If taken with AP World History (234005) as World Civilizations 2
Grades: 10 Credit: one
Prerequisite: English 9 or English 9 Honors

ADVANCED PLACEMENT WORLD HISTORY (234004)
(234005) If taken in combination with Pre-AP English 10 (114039)
Grades: 10, 11, 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5

ADVANCED PLACEMENT ART: ART HISTORY (915104)
Grades: 10, 11, 12 Credit: one/weighted +.5

Note that even the juniors and seniors would be able to take these two AP courses. Earning a 4 or 5 on the AP exam will earn THREE credits for world civ / EIGHT credits for art at UVA.

The following year, 09-10, only the second year of IB HL courses would be offered. The disappearing IB courses would be replaced by AP courses.

After this two year transition, SLHS would be a full-up AP school.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By way of example, I intuit that a young person that
> improves on the SAT would gain confidence on an
> ASVAB or trade school test, a good score on which
> really can enhance the chances of a job specialty
> and the like.

Yes, I have observed that people who even did marginally well on the SAT (self included), but had some basic mechanical and electrical experience (high school auto shop, electrical shop classes) performed extremely well on the ASVAB. I am also such a person.

And to those who imagine that multiple choice tests have no place in the adult work environment, that is just not true when it comes to the military. We use them exclusively in advancement exams, officer candidate exams, and much effort is put forth to teach ourselves how to do well on them.

I will admit though that we don't use them at my civilian job.

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=92649&paper=71&cat=110

This is an opinion piece written by Terry Jennings of the SLPTSA. As many of you dont know she has written a column for the Reston Connection for years, thus explaining their obvious bias.

I think she does a good job of explaining that the boundary is about getting the "right" kids and that it is about 'the property values stupid!"

They dont care if you pupil place out they want the realestate dont you get it? The larger an area the higher the property values. The theory would be if you are someone trying to choose a new home but you have to drive many miles from your work or the new metro to avoid SL you wont. They need more land and they need it to come from areas that will help raise their comps.

Heaven forbid that anyone oposed to RD mention property values. If you are a SL PTA member you are free to whatever you want. Its not about your kids its about your houses! They really dont want your kids and have said so.