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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:24PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lakes Pyramid Parent - you ask why South
> > Lakes should be continually defending itself.
> I
> > find it hard to believe that you are really
> asking
> > this question - although in total fairness, it
> is
> > likely due to the fact you are emotionally
> > involved in the matter. The facts and
> situation
> > at hand are simple to explain. South Lakes and
> > its supporters want more students. The reasons
> for
> > declining enrollment are likely many, but at
> some
> > level the leadership at FCPS is responsible for
> > the decline. So in the end, like it or not,
> South
> > Lakes and its supporters have the burden of
> > persuasion - period. Fair or not, "tormented"
> or
> > not, that is the way it is, and some hurdles
> and
> > steps come with that territory. SLHS wants to
> > change the status quo, and unfortunately, many
> of
> > those in the status quo situation are doing
> just
> > fine - ask most parents at Fox Mill how highly
> > they think of Oakton (although in my own view
> it
> > has its challenges, too). The repetitive
> mistake,
> > if I can call it as such, that appears to be
> being
> > made among even the most thoughtful of South
> Lakes
> > supporters (and there are a quite a few) is
> that
> > they often act and believe that they don't have
> > the burden of persuasion and that a recitation
> of
> > mere statistical imbalances, along with shop
> worn
> > notions relating one form of "ism" or another -
> > elitism or racism are the two favorites -
> should
> > automatically persuade and carry the day. Note
> > that even if RD comes through, South Lakes and
> its
> > supporters will arguably even have a greater
> > burden of persuasion than they do now - mere
> > administrative fiat will likely not bring
> > significant numbers of students to the fore -
> > there are simply too many other higher
> functioning
> > schools surrounding it - and that challenge
> must
> > be met in years to come. This is why an ad
> > hominem attack on Neen and others who share her
> > views are not only probative of nothing but
> > actually harmful. What would persuade
> observers
> > is taking Neen's views as to the inelasticity
> of
> > the FCPS bureaucracy and management - and turn
> > them on their head - and begin to convey a
> sense
> > of elasticity in terms of progressing towards
> > excellence. And since any sense of elasticity
> > will likely not come from the school system -
> they
> > like to refurbish buildings rather than tackle
> the
> > difficult stuff -- it is imperative that
> parents
> > and bright people such as yourself begin to
> > inculcate that sense (although in fairness, you
> > finally appear to have a good principal to work
> > with).
> >
> > Your post above starts in that direction -
> showing
> > emerging numbers in the IB program is a small
> step
> > - but frankly,it will take a significant and
> > vigilant sea change to persuade people in any
> > great number. And I am not sure that any sea
> > change can take place with the current members
> of
> > the School Board at the helm - they are not the
> > visionaries, for example, that gathered to
> effect
> > real progress in Massachusetts (the best
> academic
> > success story in America as of late), where
> > progressives in that state for once became
> really
> > progressive and focused on hard core academic
> > solutions - including real math, phonics above
> all
> > else, and discipline without fear of being
> accused
> > of an enemy of diversity. or multi-culturalism.
>
> >
> >
> > As I said, Neen is often correct when she pokes
> at
> > the soft underbelly of the educational regime -
> > some of which applies to the current state of
> > South Lakes -and note her source of authority
> > comes not from any moral posture, but rather
> from
> > a very emerging body of evidence that the
> > progressive and warmed over porridge that the
> > educational establishment has been serving
> simply
> > doesn't work in terms of producing academic
> > progress. My own view is that she at times
> > overstates the case, but since so many respond
> by
> > name calling rather than with intelligent
> > counterclaims (part of responding as such would
> be
> > to accede to those certain areas where she is
> spot
> > on),she can continue to relentlessly and easily
> > pounce on themes that resound with a reluctant
> > population. Kudos to her frankly, and my own
> > views are that it would be prudent to cease to
> > keep taking the bait and attractant she sets
> and
> > begin the work of persuading. It is work that
> > will be required long after redistricting.
>
>
>
> Quantum,
> I don't attack Neen's views, just her style.
>
> Also, we are parents, not salespeople,try as we
> might. If you think we have the burden, think
> again. We are fed up with having to defend our
> school, so be it. I'm sure there will be some
> pupil placement, but many will come to South Lakes
> if redistricted. I think you have to place this
> forum in the broader context and realize that many
> people have not been that involved with this
> process, and naturally, those are the ones that
> will come.


SLPP

You make a good point. At the second public hearing, I heard someone from Floris filed a petition of 8th graders, close to 50 saying they will opt out of SL with pupil placement because they desired AP. Remember Floris was supposed to send 69 students. So we will have to see how many show up.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Dirty Polling tactics
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:26PM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " In my opinion, I think the
> > PTA president would have been better off just
> > telling people to write to the school board
> that
> > they do not approve of any of the scenarios."
>
> The thing is, the Fox Mill PTA pres. DOES like
> scenarios that have Fox Mill going to South Lakes.
> In fact, one thing that probably upset her about
> Kathy's proposal is that her street would have
> stayed with Oakton. She and Erica Castro want
> their kids to go to South Lakes and they want to
> drag the rest of us along with them. I guess they
> don't like South Lakes THAT much as it is now,
> they need all the other Fox Mill kids and as many
> Floris kids as they can sweep up to make the
> school acceptable.

WOW! How very interesting, and how very wrong of her to use her position as PTA President in this manner. Shame on her.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SL last ditch strategy ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:31PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you have to place this
> forum in the broader context and realize that many
> people have not been that involved with this
> process, and naturally, those are the ones that
> will come.

Great - so are you relying on those people who have no clue what's going on, on the basis that those who've looked at it in any depth will pupil place or exit FCPS?

Wow - its a brilliant strategy - I love it

Just charge ahead, don't worry about anyone in the way - you should be in foreign policy

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Exactly ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:32PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Also, we are parents, not salespeople,try as we
> might. If you think we have the burden, think
> again. We are fed up with having to defend our
> school, so be it. I'm sure there will be some
> pupil placement, but many will come to South Lakes
> if redistricted. I think you have to place this
> forum in the broader context and realize that many
> people have not been that involved with this
> process, and naturally, those are the ones that
> will come.

Students who are academic advanced, their parents usually pay more attention to their education.

Parents who pay more attention to their kids' education will pay more attention to this process.

Those who pay more attention to the process and are redistricted will less likely to send their kids to South Lakes.

So what conclusion we can draw from the above argument?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:32PM

NavyGetsOut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLPP wrote:
> From my perspective, in the context of this study,
> the school board is trying to do what they are
> tasked to do, which is to ensure the all FCPS kids
> get a fair shake? Do you agree with this?
>
> I bet that we would disagree on what it means to
> give 'all FCPS kids' a fair shake. You are
> obviously focused on just SLHS we are obviously
> focused on our children.
>
> This is the issue spewed out over 200 pages on
> this post. It comes down to what do the SBMs
> think is fair for 'all FCPS kids'. They are
> bound to disagree with eachother as well. Lets
> hope the numbers reflect the numbers here.

Your problem is that each school board member decides what happens in their districts. They won't make decisions for other districts, just as Tom Davis won't make a decision about something Frank Wolf's district. That means they will go along with what Stu wants in his district and what Kathy wants in her district. At Large members represent every district so they are more free to vote against a district member, except that Moon very rarely votes against any democrat proposal. Raney may vote against this proposal, and Hone definitely will, but the others will go along with whatever Stu and Kathy want for their districts. Only Stu can table this, and we all know that he won't do that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Jesus speaks ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:33PM

All of you people are fucking morons...get a life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:35PM

Exactly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> > Also, we are parents, not salespeople,try as we
> > might. If you think we have the burden, think
> > again. We are fed up with having to defend our
> > school, so be it. I'm sure there will be some
> > pupil placement, but many will come to South
> Lakes
> > if redistricted. I think you have to place
> this
> > forum in the broader context and realize that
> many
> > people have not been that involved with this
> > process, and naturally, those are the ones that
> > will come.
>
> Students who are academic advanced, their parents
> usually pay more attention to their education.
>
> Parents who pay more attention to their kids'
> education will pay more attention to this process.
>
>
> Those who pay more attention to the process and
> are redistricted will less likely to send their
> kids to South Lakes.
>
> So what conclusion we can draw from the above
> argument?

Well put. Only those uninvolved parents, those without alternatives will send their kids to South Lakes. That has been made obvious throughout this process. The process was horribly flawed from the beginning, and then it got worse.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:38PM

If you look at Tisdatt's comments, he says the same thing. They are not expecting all the kids to show up. What kind of statement is this? They are acknowledging their own failure and failure of the process.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:40PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Colleges don't think much of Human Geography.
> Most colleges, including VA public colleges, do
> not give credit for Human Geography. It was a
> very silly first offering of AP at South Lakes.
> AP government is a much better option, but I have
> not seen that confirmed.

My point is "do we have to criticize EVERYTHING SL does?" It appears they found a course that kids want and a teacher can teach. I cannot see a problem with this. Was it selected in some nefarious manner or with some nefarious motive? Would it have been better to offer a non-AP version of the subject? Now, if it is offered as proof they do AP too, that would be balderdash. But I prefer to give even the most evil of them the benefit of the doubt...it is just a new course offering. And getting college credit is not the only reason to take an AP class....it is enough that kids will be presented with a supposedly more rigorous curriculum. We know they cannot currently offer both IP and AP for the same subjects. Is there some quota they cannot exceed for AP that they are somehow misusing? I suggest we pick somewhere else.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whynotbiggerTJ ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:41PM

TJ had 2577 applicants and 1614 achieve semifinalist standing, but will only be accepting 480 students. Since its inception in 1989, incoming freshman classes have increased only by a total of 80 students; disproportionate to the student population increase in the county. The GT programs in the elementary schools have increased in record numbers without high school support. Please support the other highly qualified 2/3 student population that will not receive TJ admission due to space restrictions in their quest for excellence in math and science. Consider splitting the schools into 9th and 10th grade, and 11th and 12th grade, OR, splitting the schools into math and science, and language and history.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:50PM

whynotbiggerTJ Wrote:
> ... Please support the other highly qualified 2/3
> student population that will not receive TJ
> admission due to space restrictions in their quest
> for excellence in math and science. Consider
> splitting the schools into 9th and 10th grade, and
> 11th and 12th grade, OR, splitting the schools
> into math and science, and language and history.

Sorry, you've lost me. Split WHAT schools?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: leave_us_alone ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:52PM

whynotbiggerTJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ had 2577 applicants and 1614 achieve
> semifinalist standing, but will only be accepting
> 480 students. Since its inception in 1989,
> incoming freshman classes have increased only by a
> total of 80 students; disproportionate to the
> student population increase in the county. The GT
> programs in the elementary schools have increased
> in record numbers without high school support.
> Please support the other highly qualified 2/3
> student population that will not receive TJ
> admission due to space restrictions in their quest
> for excellence in math and science. Consider
> splitting the schools into 9th and 10th grade, and
> 11th and 12th grade, OR, splitting the schools
> into math and science, and language and history.

This has been suggested to them. Split TJ and SL, make one math and sciences magnet school and other liberal arts. But that will involve some planning, foresight and work. That is too much to ask from this School Board. Brining in kids from outside is very easy and they will go for it.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whynot biggertj ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:54PM

use sl as the language and history part of the governor's school and tj as the math and science portion---tj already has the labs set up so there wouldn't be an additional cost to alter sl

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:56PM

From today's Washington Post

Seems like even educators cannot agree, so how can parents? All the more, critical thinking and Theory of Knowledge should be electives, and math should be math, etc. Read and comment at will....lots of fodder here.

--------------


Relentless Questioning Paves a Deeper Path
By Valerie Strauss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, February 18, 2008; B02

Jessica Mattson said she hears a lot about "critical thinking" from her English teachers at Walter Johnson High School in Bethesda. To the 18-year-old senior, the term refers to the skill of "reading deeper into what is written."

It means more to Walter Johnson history teacher Nathan Schwartz. When Schwartz teaches about the rise of the samurai in Japan, he works with students not simply to memorize facts related to it but also to understand why it happened by employing the thinking skills of analysis, synthesis, application and reflection.

But at the University of Virginia, Daniel T. Willingham, a psychology professor, has a different view of critical thinking skills:

"There is no such thing."

Critical thinking.

The phrase has become a mantra among educators from pre-kindergarten through graduate school who call it a central learning goal, as well as among industry leaders who say they are worried that U.S. schools are not producing enough critical thinkers to meet the needs of the 21st-century economy.

Institutes, foundations, councils and centers are devoted to thinking about critical thinking. Conferences are held on it, papers are written and books are published. Standardized tests are given to assess it, and educational programs are sold with a proposed path to the promised critical-thinking land.

Yet there is no agreed-upon definition of what critical thinking is or how it can be developed.

"It's like [former Supreme Court justice] Potter Stewart's definition of pornography: You know it when you see it," said Robert J. Sternberg, dean of Tufts University's School of Arts and Sciences and a leading researcher on thinking styles and higher mental functions.

"One of the problems with the term 'critical thinking' is that it is a catchall term for a million different things," Schwartz said.

It might, in fact, be easier to say what critical thinking is not. It is not simply being critical or asking a lot of questions, or being analytical or logical. There is more involved, as is suggested by the phrase's Greek roots: "kriticos," or discerning judgment, and "kriterion," or standards.

According to the educational nonprofit group Foundation for Critical Thinking, a practiced critical thinker will:

¿ Raise vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely.

¿ Gather and assess relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret effectively.

¿ Reach well-reasoned conclusions and solutions and test them against relevant criteria and standards.

¿ Think open-mindedly within alternative systems of thought.

¿ Communicate effectively with others to solve complex problems.

The question for educators is how to foster critical thinking.

Some experts say the skills involved can be taught to students at all levels. But opportunities must then be provided for students to practice those skills so they can become ingrained and transferred from situation to situation, subject to subject.

Other cognitive psychologists question how effectively critical-thinking skills can be transferred from one subject area to another. They say such skills are developed, in large part, in relation to the content area in which they are acquired.

"You can't do it without the content knowledge," said Robin Lanzi, assistant professor in the Department of Human Science at Georgetown University.

"You may have these fabulous critical-thinking skills, but you don't know when they are appropriate," Willingham said.

"If you think of thought as having two components, you have factual knowledge that you know and the processes that manipulate those facts," he added. "Everyone understands that half is no good when that half is knowledge. People don't seem to understand that it works the other way. Having processes alone doesn't work, either. You can't acquire these processes in the absence of facts."

Willingham said he questions the value of educational programs that offer a way to teach critical thinking -- sometimes through exercises and brainteasers -- that are not rooted in any particular subject.

"To understand the structure and the nature of poetry, you need to read a lot of poems," he said. "It's the same thing with mathematics and science."

Many elementary and secondary educators today say the federal No Child Left Behind education law, with its emphasis on standardized tests, has forced schools to focus exclusively on content.

Said Barbara Radner, director of the Center for Urban Education at DePaul University in Chicago: "The K-12 schools have focused on tests that actually do require critical thinking, but they haven't aligned the curriculum with it, and extracurricular activities that used to develop it -- chess and debate -- have been replaced in many schools by test-preparation programs."

What teachers and parents should do, experts say, is make sure students know the difference between memorizing material and understanding it, that students are open to different ways of thinking and that they learn as much as they can about as much as they can.

"The easiest way to encourage critical thinking is to force [students] to question everything," said Michael Tabachnick, professor of physics at Delaware Valley College in Doylestown, Pa., who teaches a course in it.

"Question me, question their parents, their pastor, everything," he said. "It doesn't mean you can't believe, but you must question. Is it true? Is it opinion? Is it justified by fact? . . . Students eventually learn to analyze. Some will do it better than others, but you can always get them to at least question."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: why there wont be bigger TJ ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:57PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> whynotbiggerTJ Wrote:
> > ... Please support the other highly qualified
> 2/3
> > student population that will not receive TJ
> > admission due to space restrictions in their
> quest
> > for excellence in math and science. Consider
> > splitting the schools into 9th and 10th grade,
> and
> > 11th and 12th grade, OR, splitting the schools
> > into math and science, and language and
> history.
>
> Sorry, you've lost me. Split WHAT schools?


I took it to mean split the existing TJ into a TJ east & west. But then how much more money needs to be thrown into SL after the $60 mill renovation? What do you do with the kids currently at SL that won't go to TJ West?

The SL pyramid seems to already suffer from magnetitis. They get kids into HW and Hughes from outside the pyramid to boost test scores and then they go off TJ or their base HS. The buck has to stop somewhere.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 18, 2008 03:57PM

SL last ditch strategy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think you have to place this
> > forum in the broader context and realize that
> many
> > people have not been that involved with this
> > process, and naturally, those are the ones that
> > will come.
>
> Great - so are you relying on those people who
> have no clue what's going on, on the basis that
> those who've looked at it in any depth will pupil
> place or exit FCPS?
>
> Wow - its a brilliant strategy - I love it
>
> Just charge ahead, don't worry about anyone in the
> way - you should be in foreign policy

No, I know some of these people. Their kids are great. They are happy to come to South Lakes and will do so. They haven't been involved because they are fine with the redistricting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whynotbiggertj ()
Date: February 18, 2008 03:58PM

you are not making an additional magnet school, you are just making the govenor school larger--easier for sb to figure out?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:01PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SL last ditch strategy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I think you have to place this
> > > forum in the broader context and realize that
> > many
> > > people have not been that involved with this
> > > process, and naturally, those are the ones
> that
> > > will come.
> >
> > Great - so are you relying on those people who
> > have no clue what's going on, on the basis that
> > those who've looked at it in any depth will
> pupil
> > place or exit FCPS?
> >
> > Wow - its a brilliant strategy - I love it
> >
> > Just charge ahead, don't worry about anyone in
> the
> > way - you should be in foreign policy
>
> No, I know some of these people. Their kids are
> great. They are happy to come to South Lakes and
> will do so. They haven't been involved because
> they are fine with the redistricting.


SLPP

These kids must be from Fox Mill (Castro and such people). You can't find them in Floris.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whynotbiggertj ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:01PM

the existing kids can go to langely and a few to the other surrounding schools--they are making langely bigger...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:02PM

curious redux Wrote:
> My point is "do we have to criticize EVERYTHING SL
> does?" It appears they found a course that kids
> want and a teacher can teach. I cannot see a
> problem with this. Was it selected in some
> nefarious manner or with some nefarious motive?
> Would it have been better to offer a non-AP
> version of the subject? ...
---------

Achievement wrote, "Where there is no IB equivalent, AP can be and is considered."

In this specific case there IS an IB equivalent, IB SOCIAL ANTHROPOLOGY SL instead of AP Human Geography.

I think my question is fair: I again ask Achievement to explain why South Lakes does not offer this anthropology course as IB instead of AP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: more TJs needed ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:03PM

whynot biggertj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> use sl as the language and history part of the
> governor's school and tj as the math and science
> portion---tj already has the labs set up so there
> wouldn't be an additional cost to alter sl

There are already people in the north western portion of the county who discount TJ because the commute is excessive - even worse now FCPS is dropping return bus provision making it impractical for many in an area where paying the mortgage means both parents work

The north western county needs access to a science and tech TJ-alike as an urgent priority

But in the meantime making a serious stab at an IB-liberal arts magnet at SL is a good move - far preferable to forced and failing RD

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whynotabiggertj ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:04PM

you are not making an additional magnet school, you are just making the govenor school larger--easier for sb to figure out? the existing kids can go to langely and a few to the other surrounding schools--they are making langely bigger...

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: leave_us_alone ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:05PM

whynotbiggertj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the existing kids can go to langely and a few to
> the other surrounding schools--they are making
> langely bigger...


Lets be realistic about Langley. The whole reason they were not included in this study was because they are / they think they are a school for elite kids. I doubt they will accept other kids. I hope I am wrong.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: hunting the unwary ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:06PM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> SLPP
>
> These kids must be from Fox Mill (Castro and such
> people). You can't find them in Floris.


or Madison North

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: notfoxmill ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:20PM

hunting the unwary Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Manoj Bal Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > SLPP
> >
> > These kids must be from Fox Mill (Castro and
> such
> > people). You can't find them in Floris.
>
>
> or Madison North

Let's just call them castro and company

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:21PM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SL last ditch strategy Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > I think you have to place this
> > > > forum in the broader context and realize
> that
> > > many
> > > > people have not been that involved with
> this
> > > > process, and naturally, those are the ones
> > that
> > > > will come.
> > >
> > > Great - so are you relying on those people
> who
> > > have no clue what's going on, on the basis
> that
> > > those who've looked at it in any depth will
> > pupil
> > > place or exit FCPS?
> > >
> > > Wow - its a brilliant strategy - I love it
> > >
> > > Just charge ahead, don't worry about anyone
> in
> > the
> > > way - you should be in foreign policy
> >
> > No, I know some of these people. Their kids
> are
> > great. They are happy to come to South Lakes
> and
> > will do so. They haven't been involved because
> > they are fine with the redistricting.
>
>
> SLPP
>
> These kids must be from Fox Mill (Castro and such
> people). You can't find them in Floris.


Or people from Fox Mill with older kids already in high school who have younger sibs. I personally know some parents who live there who are very pissed off and have older kids attending Oakton. SLPP, all of our kids are great not just some who are great and will go to SL if the RD goes through.

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Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 04:58PM

whynotbiggerTJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ had 2577 applicants and 1614 achieve
> semifinalist standing, but will only be accepting
> 480 students. Since its inception in 1989,
> incoming freshman classes have increased only by a
> total of 80 students; disproportionate to the
> student population increase in the county. The GT
> programs in the elementary schools have increased
> in record numbers without high school support.
> Please support the other highly qualified 2/3
> student population that will not receive TJ
> admission due to space restrictions in their quest
> for excellence in math and science. Consider
> splitting the schools into 9th and 10th grade, and
> 11th and 12th grade, OR, splitting the schools
> into math and science, and language and history.

First, it's insane to have that many semi finalists. I know that they hope to find more minorities that way, but it raises the hopes of too many children. It also costs more to have staff review ALL those semi finalists.

Second, which schools would you split?

I totally agree that we need more magnet schools in FCPS. That has been obvious for at least a decade. The GT advisory has recommended more such schools. But this school board has been adamantly opposed because staff, especially Principals, don't like magnets. FCPS should worry more about meeting the needs of students and less concerned about pleasing staff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whynotbiggertj ()
Date: February 18, 2008 05:08PM

use sl as the language and history part of the governor's school and tj as the math and science portion---tj already has the labs set up so there wouldn't be an additional cost to alter sl.....you are not making an additional magnet school, you are just making the governor school larger--easier for sb to figure out? according to a pricipal who used to sit on the review board, all 1611 kids who made the cut would be excellent candidates to study at the governor's school.... existing kids can go to langley and a few to the other surrounding schools--they ARE making langley bigger...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 05:12PM

>>>>It appears they found a course that kids want and a teacher can teach.<<<

How do you know that is what kids want? I've never seen anyone at South Lakes say that they wanted Human Geography. Why would they? It's as close to an IB course as is possible. They already have a full compliment of IB courses. Why would they need another one?

According to SL's folks, the principal let staff decide what THEY wanted to teach and they choose Human Geography. A MUCH better choice would have been AP calculus. People have mentioned wanting that course. Even US Government would have been preferable. I hear that parents at South Lakes are asking for that course but it hasn't been decided if it will be offered. Butler knows that parents and students are less than thrilled with Human Geography, a course only taught at one other FCPS high school and that school is not TJ. It's a silly course. Of more concern is the principal giving staff the choice of what they want to teach. That should be HIS decision, based on the needs and wants of parents and students. He should be assigning staff to courses, not staff telling HIM what they feel like teaching. But I understand that Butler's MO.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 05:19PM

whynotbiggertj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> use sl as the language and history part of the
> governor's school and tj as the math and science
> portion---tj already has the labs set up so there
> wouldn't be an additional cost to alter sl.....you
> are not making an additional magnet school, you
> are just making the governor school larger--easier
> for sb to figure out? according to a pricipal
> who used to sit on the review board, all 1611 kids
> who made the cut would be excellent candidates to
> study at the governor's school.... existing kids
> can go to langley and a few to the other
> surrounding schools--they ARE making langley
> bigger...

Make South Lakes a magnet for Humanities? That was suggested to the school board and staff years ago. It was a no go. No more magnets.

How absurd to say that ALL 1,600 kids could make it equally well at TJ. The number 1 kid would do as well as the number 1611? Of course not. I always wonder why staff says such silly things, and they do with some frequency. They can't expect the public to believe it. The sad thing is, they might actually believe it! Is is not possible for them to believe that not every child is born equal to every other child? They'll die trying to 'prove' that is true but that won't make it true. How frustrating for them to spend their lives trying something to prove something that is not true. Some children are born smarter, some work harder, some have more determination. All students will never be 'equal' despite the educrats agenda to make it so. Magnets do not support this agenda, so they cannot be allowed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: whynotbiggertj ()
Date: February 18, 2008 05:25PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> whynotbiggertj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > use sl as the language and history part of the
> > governor's school and tj as the math and
> science
> > portion---tj already has the labs set up so
> there
> > wouldn't be an additional cost to alter
> sl.....you
> > are not making an additional magnet school, you
> > are just making the governor school
> larger--easier
> > for sb to figure out? according to a
> pricipal
> > who used to sit on the review board, all 1611
> kids
> > who made the cut would be excellent candidates
> to
> > study at the governor's school.... existing
> kids
> > can go to langley and a few to the other
> > surrounding schools--they ARE making langley
> > bigger...
>
> Make South Lakes a magnet for Humanities? That
> was suggested to the school board and staff years
> ago. It was a no go. No more magnets.
>
> How absurd to say that ALL 1,600 kids could make
> it equally well at TJ. The number 1 kid would do
> as well as the number 1611? Of course not. I
> always wonder why staff says such silly things,
> and they do with some frequency. They can't
> expect the public to believe it. The sad thing
> is, they might actually believe it! Is is not
> possible for them to believe that not every child
> is born equal to every other child? They'll die
> trying to 'prove' that is true but that won't make
> it true. How frustrating for them to spend their
> lives trying something to prove something that is
> not true. Some children are born smarter, some
> work harder, some have more determination. All
> students will never be 'equal' despite the
> educrats agenda to make it so. Magnets do not
> support this agenda, so they cannot be allowed.


there was nothing said about equal...they would be excellent candidates...The GT
programs in the elementary schools have increased in record numbers without high school support...Since its inception in 1989, incoming freshman classes have increased only by a total of 80 students; disproportionate to the student population increase in the county. that is the important piece.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 05:25PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious redux Wrote:
> > My point is "do we have to criticize EVERYTHING
> SL
> > does?" It appears they found a course that
> kids
> > want and a teacher can teach. I cannot see a
> > problem with this. Was it selected in some
> > nefarious manner or with some nefarious motive?
>
> > Would it have been better to offer a non-AP
> > version of the subject? ...
> ---------
>
> Achievement wrote, "Where there is no IB
> equivalent, AP can be and is considered."
>
> In this specific case there IS an IB equivalent,
> IB SOCIAL ANTHROPOLOGY SL instead of AP Human
> Geography.
>
> I think my question is fair: I again ask
> Achievement to explain why South Lakes does not
> offer this anthropology course as IB instead of
> AP.

Because staff "carefully researched" (Butler's words) and decided they would teach Human Geography.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: February 18, 2008 06:21PM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WestfieldDad Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > navy area parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Point of fact: I know of at least three
> > > neighborhood HOAs that straddle 7100 in the
> > > boundary study area (Fair Woods, Century Oaks
> > and
> > > Franklin Farm). So 7100 isn't necessarily an
> > > automatic division, it depends on other
> factors.
> >
> > > If Floris has no HOA, then it's harder for
> you
> > to
> > > make the case that it's unified at all. Does
> > > Floris have an HOA and defined boundaries?
> >
> > Our North Reston Astronaut friends would beg to
> > differ - being part of a HOA doesn't mean diddly
> -
> > at least when it comes to sending their kids
> to
> > the Reston High School...
> >
> > > Or are
> > > we simply talking about the elementary school
> > > boundary, in wihch case the school board
> draws
> > > them up anyway and obviously, as we are
> finding
> > > out now, can redraw them at will.
> >
> > HOA's have no standing when it comes to the
> > schools, though they do tend to argue that they
> > ought to. The larger ones get more respect
> than
> > the smaller ones.
> >
> > Floris is the name of a small crossroads
> community
> > of dairy farms that goes back about 150 years.
> > The current Floris ES is about the third one
> with
> > the name. At this point, it's almost entirely
> > made up of smaller HOAs that were built
> one-by-one
> > as the individual farms were sold off.
> (Franklin
> > Farms is so big cause the person who assembled
> > that dairy farm bought the land with his
> winnings
> > from the Irish Sweepstakes.)
> >
> > Anyway, the reason Floris is in the middle of
> this
> > mess isn't that we don't have a large HOA,
> though
> > it might help a bit.
> >
> > The real reasons -
> >
> > 1) Westfield was officially declared
> > "overcrowded" for the purposes of this study -
> > it's not, but they needed some excuse to find
> > kids. There's two Westfield ESes that are far
> from
> > and in the general direction of South Lakes -
> > McNair south of the Toll Road and Floris.
> >
> >
> > 2) Conveniently, Floris is split right down
> the
> > middle by the Hunter Mill/Sully District
> boundary
> > so we aren't represented as a whole anywhere
> with
> > the NE Floris part on Stu's side of the
> boundary
> > and McNair is entirely on Stu's side.
> >
> > 3) South Lakes can't fit 2 complete additional
> > elementary schools. Fox Mill was the first and
> > most obvious target since it's closer and at
> the
> > far end of Oakton. Thus,leaving part of either
> > Floris or McNair.
> >
> > 4) South Lakes boundary study people looked at
> > Floris and McNair SES & test scores. They made
> > the obvious (though as Berdhuis has correctly
> > maintained) incorrect assumption that there was
> a
> > sufficiently large difference between the two
> that
> > it made any difference - (SL boundary people
> were
> > misled by the overall SES at McNair - the low
> > overall SES at McNair is primarily due to the
> > portions north of the Toll Road that go to
> Herndon
> > HS).
> >
> > 5) Thus SL had an irrational preference for
> > Floris vs McNair and based their Option 5 on
> > that.
> >
> > 6) However, the numbers were still too high,
> so
> > Staff (perhaps with Kathy's encouragement...)
> > carved off the Sully side of Floris and kept it
> at
> > WHS in the Staff official option.
> >
> > And that's where we are.
>
>
> And what was the guideline SB was supposed to be
> following?
>
> No split feeders - Floris now splits into 4 in
> worst case scenario
> South Lakes, Westfields, TJ, Oakton. Leaving TJ
> out as someone will correctly argue it splits into
> 3.
>
> A good leader tries (emphasized) to form a
> consensus among his constituents. Our leader Stu
> Gibson refuses to step outside the South Lakes
> boundary. Refuses to go to Fox Mill, refuses to
> go to Floris and refuses to go to McNair.
>
> Some Leadership ...

Just the history and why it came down to this. Not that it's such a grand idea.

And, yes, Stu's a cretin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 18, 2008 06:38PM

Regarding the two Reston schools, were the astronaut schools always in the Herndon pyramid since their inception? How did the sb decide at that time about the astronaut schools built in Reston end up going to Herndon instead of going to SL? Does anybody know the history of these two schools?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 18, 2008 07:07PM

Achievement Wrote:

> ...If you are familiar with AP, you should have no
> trouble understanding IB once you really get to
> know it. Until then, please keep an open mind.

I'm familiar with both and if you want IB then your school should take the extra cost out of it's budget not have others pay for it. Why pay for IB if AP is cheaper? You all would rather have core class size increases and have ancillary programs. This is foolish. FCPS does not need IB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 07:38PM

Baffled,

Others here have more direct background on the astronaut school decision...it was made in the late 1980's or so when Armstrong was opened to serve Noth Point and its environs. At the time, South Lakes was over 2000 students and couldn't take on the Armstrong kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 18, 2008 08:04PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled,
>
> Others here have more direct background on the
> astronaut school decision...it was made in the
> late 1980's or so when Armstrong was opened to
> serve Noth Point and its environs. At the time,
> South Lakes was over 2000 students and couldn't
> take on the Armstrong kids.

Forestville used to go to Herndon and when Aldrin opned people were moved out of it into Aldrin. Forestville got an Island that went to Langley so they changed Forestville to Langley and Aldrin got to stay at Herndon. They looked at neighbors at South Lakes as slumming. That Wolf Trap Island? One article details where it's Vienna neighbors go- seems to be Marshall and Mclean.

google history lesson articles:
http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=12035&paper=65&cat=104

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=11265&paper=65&cat=104

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: SLVerity ()
Date: February 18, 2008 08:27PM

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Baffled,
> > > > South Lakes was over 2000 students and couldn't
> > take on the Armstrong kids.
>
> Forestville used to go to Herndon and when Aldrin
> opned people were moved out of it into Aldrin.
> Forestville got an Island that went to Langley so
> they changed Forestville to Langley and Aldrin got
> to stay at Herndon. They looked at neighbors at
> South Lakes as slumming. That Wolf Trap Island?
> One article details where it's Vienna neighbors
> go- seems to be Marshall and Mclean.
>
> google history lesson articles:
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
> chive=true&article=12035&paper=65&cat=104
>
> http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?ar
> chive=true&article=11265&paper=65&cat=104

It's exactly comments like the one above about looking at being sent to SL as slumming that have hurt the school's reputation. And all of that happened when SL was a very good AP school with high SAT scores.

It did not help that for years the editor of the Reston Connection actually had kids at Herndon, so every article comparing the two schools was biased in favor of Herndon. Ironically, one year after the Austronauts started at Herndon, South Lakes enrollment began declining, mostly because Realtors billed North Point as exclusive. It mattered not a whit to those home buyers that SL consistently outscored Herndon on the SATs and continued to do so until a few years ago, when Herndon jumped ahead slightly. South Lakes was branded.

You know, SL outscored Herndon on the SATs this year, and only lagged behind Westfield by 20 points, but that is ignored by SL detractors.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: smells like selective choice of facts ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:26PM

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You know, SL outscored Herndon on the SATs this
> year, and only lagged behind Westfield by 20
> points, but that is ignored by SL detractors.

That's all well and good but SL was a long way behind Oakton and Madison on SAT and SOL - which is ignored by SL boosters and one of the reasons why families being kidnapped from Oakton and Madison are so angry

(for Madison North families the Hughes-Thoreau SOL gap is even more worrying)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 18, 2008 09:30PM

" Ironically, one year after the Austronauts started at Herndon, South Lakes enrollment began declining, mostly because Realtors billed North Point as exclusive. It mattered not a whit to those home buyers that SL consistently outscored Herndon on the SATs and continued to do so until a few years ago, when Herndon jumped ahead slightly. South Lakes was branded.

You know, SL outscored Herndon on the SATs this year, and only lagged behind Westfield by 20 points, but that is ignored by SL detractors."

1) I don't know if it's possible to establish cause and effect between realtors and SL enrollment. If SL's SAT scores were higher, as you say, then some people would pay attention to that. There are some nice expensive homes in north Reston, and some buyers probably just liked them beter than other homes nearby.

2) Who would have had a stake in "branding" SL at that time?

3) I hope you don't think that most of the Fox Mill, Floris, and MI folks are SL detractors. I will say that many of us are annoyed by the SL people who take a holier-than-thou attitude and those who have worked with Stu to try to move our kids for unconvincing reasons. Yes, some people don't like one or more aspects of the SL total package, we like our current schools better, and/or we don't believe that we should be moved so that SL can maybe offer a couple more courses or whatever weak reasons are being touted this week. Nothing personal. (well, maybe a little personal against the harridans...not you SLV...)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Neen ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:00PM

why there wont be bigger TJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I took it to mean split the existing TJ into a TJ
> east & west. But then how much more money needs
> to be thrown into SL after the $60 mill
> renovation? What do you do with the kids
> currently at SL that won't go to TJ West?
>
> The SL pyramid seems to already suffer from
> magnetitis. They get kids into HW and Hughes from
> outside the pyramid to boost test scores and then
> they go off TJ or their base HS. The buck has to
> stop somewhere.<<<

Are you saying we should make all kids go to their base school, regardless? A child who is 2 grade levels ahead should be in the same class, with children who are 2 years behind, and all levels in between, all being taught by the same teacher? Who is that fair to? Whose needs are being met? What is the goal? Reduce everyone to the middle, so that everyone is declared equal?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:41PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> A MUCH better choice would have
> been AP calculus. People have mentioned wanting
> that course.

Of course we'd want it, but as long as SL is an IB school, the problem with offering AP Calc is that they MUST offer SL and HL Math. (SL for the Diploma candidates who can't hack HL, and HL for those who can.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WestfieldDad ()
Date: February 18, 2008 10:50PM

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> whynotbiggerTJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TJ had 2577 applicants and 1614 achieve
> > semifinalist standing, but will only be accepting
> > 480 students.
> First, it's insane to have that many semi
> finalists. I know that they hope to find more
> minorities that way, but it raises the hopes of
> too many children.
>
The fun year is next year. It's the first year for seniors chosen under the new rules for picking the kids - deemphasizing the test. (The results were bad enough that they've had to institute a new policy - the kids now have to show up having taken Algebra in the 8th grade.)

Must be the teachers can't teach... Must be the principal... when TJ doesn't get 90% of the Merit Scholars...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 18, 2008 11:22PM

Westfield Dad,

I think your prediction is likely to prove accurate. But the new principal deserves some credit. He got the School Board to change its regulation so that TJ students who didn't have at least a 3.0 GPA could be asked to leave TJ. That regulation will affect the bottom 1% of the TJ population, by the way.

As for the Algebra 1 requirement, I don't think it will have had any impact on who is admitted. With almost half the FCPS students taking Algebra 1 in 6th, 7th or 8th grade, all this change did was make sure that fewer unqualified students wasted their money and time applying.

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fun year is next year. It's the first year
> for seniors chosen under the new rules for picking
> the kids - deemphasizing the test. (The results
> were bad enough that they've had to institute a
> new policy - the kids now have to show up having
> taken Algebra in the 8th grade.)
>
> Must be the teachers can't teach... Must be the
> principal... when TJ doesn't get 90% of the Merit
> Scholars...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: PublicDemonstrationAtHearing ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:37AM

STAND WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS AT THE PUBLIC HEARING!

FINAL FCPS School Redistricting Hearing
Jackson Middle School
Front Entrance
3020 Gallows Road, Falls Church
Tuesday, February 19, 6:00PM

Last week, Fairfax County School Board members Stu Gibson and Kathy Smith proposed two new West County redistricting options which could move more people and split additional neighborhoods, including the community of Fox Mill.

The school board will hold its final boundary review public hearing TONIGHT, Tuesday, February 19 and will focus on these new options.

People in all the affected communities are urged to come out in full force to express their views on these two new divisive proposals.

This is the moment when your involvement will make a critical difference. If you want to keep your community together and attend your current schools, be present and be counted.

For more information, visit www.FairfaxCAPS.org.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: FACTS ()
Date: February 19, 2008 06:28AM

PublicDemonstrationAtHearing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> STAND WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS AT THE PUBLIC HEARING!
>
> FINAL FCPS School Redistricting Hearing
> Jackson Middle School
> Front Entrance
> 3020 Gallows Road, Falls Church
> Tuesday, February 19, 6:00PM
>
> Last week, Fairfax County School Board members Stu
> Gibson and Kathy Smith proposed two new West
> County redistricting options which could move more
> people and split additional neighborhoods,
> including the community of Fox Mill.
>
> The school board will hold its final boundary
> review public hearing TONIGHT, Tuesday, February
> 19 and will focus on these new options.
>
> People in all the affected communities are urged
> to come out in full force to express their views
> on these two new divisive proposals.
>
> This is the moment when your involvement will make
> a critical difference. If you want to keep your
> community together and attend your current
> schools, be present and be counted.
>
> For more information, visit www.FairfaxCAPS.org.

Now is the time to stand tall against the evil FCPS school board. You need to show up at all meetings, flood the SB with emails and phone calls.

FYI

Do any of the school board members practice Critical Thinking?

I think not, based on the mess they have with redistricting problems in FCPS.


According to the educational nonprofit group Foundation for Critical Thinking, a practiced critical thinker will:

¿ Raise vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely.

¿ Gather and assess relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret effectively.

¿ Reach well-reasoned conclusions and solutions and test them against relevant criteria and standards.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: navy area parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 08:47AM

6 PM? For a hearing concerning the western part of the county? Who mainly commute from DC or Tysons and don't get home until well after 6 PM on a normal night?

Nice. Can the SB be a little more obvious in wanting to minimize the turnout?

After all, it looks worse to ignore over a thousand people than it does to ignore a few hundred ...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:09AM

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 6 PM? For a hearing concerning the western part
> of the county? Who mainly commute from DC or
> Tysons and don't get home until well after 6 PM on
> a normal night?
>
> Nice. Can the SB be a little more obvious in
> wanting to minimize the turnout?
>
> After all, it looks worse to ignore over a
> thousand people than it does to ignore a few
> hundred ...


We all know there is overriding opposition to this proposal. Looks like all the 3 proposals have public opinion against them but have only have one thing working for them. Master Stu has his eyes set on the prey. The only people that can stop Master Stu and Kathy are the remaining 10 board members.

All the reasons for opposition are well documented but I will list them again.

1) People think that start of the process was flawed when northern Reston communities were not included. There seems to be a tussle between Herndon and Reston on some of the good Reston schools that Herndon has captured and they do not seem to be up for negotiation. So SL is moving south to hunt for kids to fill their school.

2) South Lakes only offering IB program does not help. Kids who are slated to go to South Lakes are from AP schools and they do not think too highly of the IB program (This is again up for debate and has been debated many times). To me it is the choice of the kids and their parents. IB school has never been forced on students and fairfax county will be the first one to do this if this proposal goes through.

A important factor here seems to be order of doing things.

Stu and SL parents are saying, let the warm bodies come and they will chart the discussion for AP/IB at South Lakes where as

Others are saying, you first commit to AP and then ask for warm bodies. Again this has been debated many times.

3) There was a lot of bad blood because of initial SL PTSA actions and there is tremendous resentment against the ways SL has adopted to attract kids. The latest example being the Fox Mill PTA poll and the interpretation of the results. It seems to all of us outside that some folks at SL will go to any length to push their case.

Keeping emotions aside, it is my personal belief that this study should be put off for 1 year. This will let the SB do the following.

1) Come up with a comprehensive strategy on pupil placement for kids that get redistricted to SL and do not want a IB program.

2) A new elementary school coppermine will come into mix and can be considered to populate SL in future.

3) It will give some more time to SB to figure out why south lakes is suffering from under enrollment. Not many people are buying the aging population theory.

Time will tell what happens.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Floris Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:49AM

10 Year Enrollments SL

1 South Lakes High (1997-1998) 12-Sep
2 Grade AmerInd Asian Black Hispanic White Total
3 9 1 34 81 48 265 429
4 10 1 43 72 41 229 386
5 11 1 38 51 44 225 359
6 12 0 42 60 28 203 333
7 UG 0 16 62 28 59 165
8
9
10 TOTAL Sum 3 173 326 189 981 1672
11
12
13
14
15 South Lakes High (1998-1999) 12-Sep
16 Grade AmerInd Asian Black Hispanic White Total
17 9 1 46 90 49 204 390
18 10 1 34 62 38 234 369
19 11 1 42 63 39 235 380
20 12 1 37 51 31 206 326
21 UG 1 21 62 46 62 192
22
23
24 TOTAL Sum 5 180 328 203 941 1657
25
26 South Lakes High (1999--2000) 12-Sep
27 Grade AmerInd Asian Black Hispanic White Total
28 9 0 45 86 56 228 415
29 10 0 42 69 47 203 361
30 11 0 36 54 42 230 362
31 12 2 31 61 26 216 336
32 UG 1 17 72 35 71 196
33
34
35 TOTAL Sum 3 171 342 206 948 1670
36
37 Sept. 30th 2000 -2001Fall Membership by School Division, By School, By Grade, By Race, By Gender
38 2000-2001 Am Indian/ Alaska Native Asian Black Hispanic White Total Grade
39 Div. No. Division Name Sch. No. School Name Low Gr. High Gr. Gr. F M F M F M F M F M F M
40
41 029 FAIRFAX 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 09 12 09 0 2 25 24 53 50 34 47 125 131 237 254
42 029 FAIRFAX 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 09 12 10 0 0 20 28 38 48 27 31 117 132 202 239
43 029 FAIRFAX 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 09 12 11 0 0 20 24 30 36 20 25 104 115 174 200
44 029 FAIRFAX 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 09 12 12 0 0 26 13 28 33 14 18 117 125 185 189
45 029 FAIRFAX 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 09 12 UG 0 0 0 0 3 2 2 8 0 1 5 11
46 TOTAL 1990 Total 0 2 91 89 152 169 97 129 463 504 803 893 1696
47
48
49 Sept. 30, 2001 Fall Membership by School Division, By School, By Grade, By Race, By Gender
50
51 2001-2002 Amer.Ind/ Alaska Native Asian/ Pacific Islander Black Hispanic White Total
52 Div. No. Division Name School No. School Name Low Grade High Grade Memb. Grade Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Total Grade
53 029 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 9 1 - 25 25 45 44 48 50 106 93 225 212 437
54 029 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 10 - 2 23 25 49 40 26 33 118 128 216 228 444
55 029 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 11 - - 25 24 36 34 32 32 113 128 206 218 424
56 029 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 12 - - 20 24 28 27 14 23 104 106 166 180 346
57 029 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 UG - - - 1 2 - 5 1 - - 7 2 9
58 TOTAL 1990 SOUTH LAKES 1 2 93 99 160 145 125 139 441 455 820 840 1,660
59
60
61 2002-2003
62 Div. No. Division Name School No. School Name Grade Unspecified Am. Ind./Alaska Asian Black Hispanic White Total TOTAL
63 Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female
64
65 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 14 5 1 27 20 45 44 41 37 113 99 241 205 446
66 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 10 3 5 22 25 41 34 35 44 84 96 185 204 389
67 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 11 2 1 1 29 21 31 37 40 26 113 124 216 209 425
68 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 12 3 5 19 23 37 44 19 27 119 97 197 196 393
69 TOTAL FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH UG 22 16 2 97 89 154 159 135 135 429 416 0 2 2 1654

74 Virginia Department of Education
75 September 30, 2003 Student Membership PK-12
76 2003-2004
77
78 Div. No. Division Name School No. School Name Grade Unspecified Am. Ind./Alaska Asian Black Hispanic White Native Hawaiian Total TOTAL
79 Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female
80 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 8 10 1 28 18 50 48 36 38 92 102 214 217 431
81 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 10 10 3 1 30 17 36 44 39 33 111 96 227 193 420
82 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 11 4 6 22 26 50 40 36 38 88 104 200 214 414
83 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 12 3 2 1 26 17 32 36 24 19 118 114 204 188 392
84 TOTAL 25 21 2 1 106 78 168 168 135 128 409 416 845 1657
85
86 Virginia Department of Education
87 September 30, 2004 Student Membership PK-12
88 (Compiled 7/28/2006)
89 2004-2005
90 Div. No. Division Name School No. School Name Grade Unspecified Am. Ind./Alaska Asian Black Hispanic White Native Hawaiian Total TOTAL
91 Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female
92 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 17 5 2 19 28 58 48 36 37 103 74 235 192 427
93 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 10 5 14 1 31 20 44 38 41 33 89 92 210 198 408
94 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 11 10 4 28 22 34 43 35 32 112 107 219 208 427
95 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 12 3 7 18 21 44 41 15 27 78 86 158 182 340
96 35 30 2 1 86 91 180 170 127 129 382 359 1592
97
98 2005-2006 SCHOOL SCHOOL GRADE American Indian ASIAN BLACK HISPANIC WHITE UNSPECIFIED
99 EDAGENCY_NUM EDAGENCY NAME SCHOOL NUM SCHOOL NAME LOW GRADE HIGH GRADE COUNTS Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male
100 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 9 1 0 17 26 45 48 37 47 77 80 10 15
101 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 10 0 1 26 19 43 40 34 34 76 94 7 12
102 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 11 2 0 16 25 41 36 30 30 94 90 14 7
103 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 12 12 0 0 17 26 35 30 20 22 102 103 4 10
104 TOTAL 3 1 76 96 164 164 121 133 349 367 35 45 1474
105
106
107
108 Virginia Department of Education
109 September 30, 2006-2007 Student Membership by School (Grade, Race, & Gender)
110 (Compiled on 11/17/2006)
111
112 2006-2007 Unspecified American Indian Asian Black Hispanic White Hawaiian Total
113 Div. No. Division Name Sch. No. School Name Grade Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female
114 29 Fairfax County Public Schools 1990 South Lakes High 9 12 8 21 18 36 49 38 44 85 79 1 193 198
115 29 Fairfax County Public Schools 1990 South Lakes High 10 15 12 1 21 21 42 35 39 31 75 79 1 193 179
116 29 Fairfax County Public Schools 1990 South Lakes High 11 8 5 1 18 25 45 42 24 29 91 1 187 102
117 29 Fairfax County Public Schools 1990 South Lakes High 11 72 0 72
118 29 Fairfax County Public Schools 1990 South Lakes High 12 7 12 2 31 18 28 39 20 24 88 93 1 175 188
119 TOTAL 42 37 1 3 91 75 151 165 121 128 339 323 3 1 748 732 1480
120 Virginia Department of Education
121 September 30, 2007-2008Student Membership by School (Grade, Race, & Gender)
122 (Compiled on 12/4/2007)
123
124 2007-2008 Unspecified American Indian Asian Black Hispanic White Hawaiian Total
125 Div. No. Division Name Sch. No. School Name Grade Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Male Female Total Part-time Students
126 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 9 18 11 1 0 24 16 54 45 48 34 90 77 0 0 235 183 0
127 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 10 12 9 0 0 19 17 39 39 28 39 86 86 0 0 184 190 0
128 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 11 14 12 0 1 27 22 32 34 41 27 77 85 1 0 192 181 0
129 29 FAIRFAX CO PBLC SCHS 1990 SOUTH LAKES HIGH 12 8 5 1 0 17 30 40 38 20 25 91 64 0 0 177 162 1
130 TOTAL 52 37 2 1 87 85 165 156 137 125 344 312 1 788 1504

Summary of 10 Year Enrollments
A B C D E F G H I J K
1
2 YEAR UNSPEC. AM.IND ASIAN BLACK Hispanic WHITE Hawaiian TOTAL
3
4 2007-2008
5 TOTAL 90 3 172 321 262 656 1 1502
6
7 2006-2007
8 TOTAL 79 4 166 316 249 662 4 1480
9
10 2005-2006
11 TOTAL 80 4 172 328 254 716 0 1474
12 2004-2005
13
14
15 TOTAL 65 3 177 350 256 741 0 1592
16 2003-2004
17
18
19 TOTAL 46 3 184 336 263 825 0 1657
20
21 2002-2003
22
23 TOTAL 38 2 186 313 270 845 2 1654
24
25 2001-2002
26 TOTAL 2 186 313 270 845 2 - 1660
27
28 2000-2001
29 TOTAL 2 180 321 226 967 0 1696
30
31 1999--2000
32 TOTAL 171 342 206 948 1670
33
34 1998-1999
35 TOTAL 180 328 203 941 1657
36
37 1997-1998
38 TOTAL 3 173 328 189 981 1672
39
40
41 Summary Totals: Asian population High enrollment186 Low 166
42 Black population High Enrollment 350 Low 313
43 Hispanic Population High Enrollmet 270 Low 189
44 White Population High Enrollment 981 Low 656
45
46
47 This information comes from http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Publications/

The overall enrollments at South Lakes have not changed much over the last 10 years, 1696 to a low of 1474.

It is only the number of white students who's enrollment numbers have shown a dramatic decline.

Not sure why are what these sats indicate, maybe it is just the White households that are "aging in place".

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: taxpayer ()
Date: February 19, 2008 09:49AM

navy area parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 6 PM? For a hearing concerning the western part
> of the county? Who mainly commute from DC or
> Tysons and don't get home until well after 6 PM on
> a normal night?
>
> Nice. Can the SB be a little more obvious in
> wanting to minimize the turnout?
>
> After all, it looks worse to ignore over a
> thousand people than it does to ignore a few
> hundred ...

Since Fox Mill did not have much of a public PTA presence even though we all know that PTA's are big in boundary escapades , I thought it was peculiar that it's PTA activated itself publically when Smith's scenario hit the public.

It appears that a Rona Ackerman signed the Support Redistricting proposal:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/WeSupportRedistricting/signatures-6.html

My guess is Fox Mill PTA ladies might have been working on this for quite some time-as private citizens of course. Now what have they negotiated for the children? Why the 100 person poll? So much time has elapsed that the entire school could have had a hard copy sign off expanded survey on AP v IB, cost, budget, transition, start time negotiations, etc. More than 1 year of wasted time. Do the majority of parenst even want Japanese at Fox Mill? What are the class sizes? What about the part that used to go to Floris and might end up back at Floris after Coppermine?

What's in the 5 Fox Mill trailers? Why send Fox Mill GT to Oak Hill-Carson if Ackerman & CO want South Lakes? Why not Hunters Woods/Hughes?

If applying these Ackerman-Castro facts and if they are indicative of Fox Mill sentiment, it seems to me that the Reston side of FXC parkway for Fox Mill and Reston Aldrin-Armstrong plus a SMALL portion of the Madison Island [Bachman] would be more than enough for South Lakes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Berdhuis ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:01AM

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If applying these Ackerman-Castro facts and if
> they are indicative of Fox Mill sentiment, it
> seems to me that the Reston side of FXC parkway
> for Fox Mill and Reston Aldrin-Armstrong plus a
> SMALL portion of the Madison Island would be more
> than enough for South Lakes.

Even just Aldrin being added to South Lakes could be enough. Then we'd have to move McNair (all of it, no nibbling) to Herndon, which really wouldn't be a bad fit in the end.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: fm/c/o parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:06AM

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
> Since Fox Mill did not have much of a public PTA
> presence even though we all know that PTA's are
> big in boundary escapades , I thought it was
> peculiar that it's PTA activated itself publically
> when Smith's scenario hit the public.

Please know that the Fox Mill PTA hasn't done anything, just the PTA President alone. She does NOT represent the feelings of the PTA or the rest of the Fox Mill families.
>
> It appears that a Rona Ackerman signed the Support
> Redistricting proposal:
> http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/WeSupportRedist
> ricting/signatures-6.html
>
> My guess is Fox Mill PTA ladies might have been
> working on this for quite some time-as private
> citizens of course. Now what have they negotiated
> for the children? Why the 100 person poll? So
> much time has elapsed that the entire school could
> have had a hard copy sign off expanded survey on
> AP v IB, cost, budget, transition, start time
> negotiations, etc. More than 1 year of wasted
> time. Do the majority of parenst even want
> Japanese at Fox Mill? What are the class sizes?
> What about the part that used to go to Floris and
> might end up back at Floris after Coppermine?

What do these other questions have to do with RD? Why question whether families want Japanese? (since first grade is generally 50/50 between JI and gen ed, I'd say that many families do want it, but why does that matter?)
>
> What's in the 5 Fox Mill trailers? Why send Fox
> Mill GT to Oak Hill-Carson if Ackerman & CO want
> South Lakes? Why not Hunters Woods/Hughes?
>

Again, I don't see how these questions relate to RD.
However, since you asked, I will answer a bit. One trailer is for SACC. Also, Fox Mill has some extra students from McNair because of NCLB.

> If applying these Ackerman-Castro facts and if
> they are indicative of Fox Mill sentiment, it
> seems to me that the Reston side of FXC parkway
> for Fox Mill and Reston Aldrin-Armstrong plus a
> SMALL portion of the Madison Island would be more
> than enough for South Lakes.


Fox Mill sentiment is not 100%, few things are, but like Floris and MI the vast majority want to stay with Oakton. Even most of the people who started off indifferent to RD have come to prefer staying with Oakton for all the reasons already posted by other people.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:07AM

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If applying these Ackerman-Castro facts and if
> > they are indicative of Fox Mill sentiment, it
> > seems to me that the Reston side of FXC parkway
> > for Fox Mill and Reston Aldrin-Armstrong plus a
> > SMALL portion of the Madison Island would be
> more
> > than enough for South Lakes.
>
> Even just Aldrin being added to South Lakes could
> be enough. Then we'd have to move McNair (all of
> it, no nibbling) to Herndon, which really wouldn't
> be a bad fit in the end.


Forget it!!

Herndon won't let go Aldrin.

Stu made a promise to Aldrin that Aldrin belonged to Herndon.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Bulldog Mom ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:16AM

Manoj Bal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Berdhuis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > taxpayer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > If applying these Ackerman-Castro facts and
> if
> > > they are indicative of Fox Mill sentiment, it
> > > seems to me that the Reston side of FXC
> parkway
> > > for Fox Mill and Reston Aldrin-Armstrong plus
> a
> > > SMALL portion of the Madison Island would be
> > more
> > > than enough for South Lakes.
> >
> > Even just Aldrin being added to South Lakes
> could
> > be enough. Then we'd have to move McNair (all
> of
> > it, no nibbling) to Herndon, which really
> wouldn't
> > be a bad fit in the end.
>
>
> Forget it!!
>
> Herndon won't let go Aldrin.
>
> Stu made a promise to Aldrin that Aldrin belonged
> to Herndon.

Stu also made a promise that Floris would go to Westfield. He is first and foremost a politician. Even my daughter knows that all politicians lie.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:18AM

Stu made an illegal promise to Aldrin..if he did that..why couldn't he have done that for Floris/Fox Mill/MI? It is and never has been a fair process from the beginning.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:37AM

Food for thought

I was reading some of the supplemental info the SB put on the website with the new proposals.

According to the county's data, in 2006 and 2007 53 kids assigned to the SL area pupil placed to TJ. (Not sure pupil place is the correct term for TJ, but you get the idea.)

So a question (probably impossible to answer) - How many of these kids might stay in SL if SL was AP? Will never happen, but it would be interesting to survey these families. Would also be interesting to ask these 53 families that if they were to switch out of TJ, would they go to SL IB, or to an AP school, and why.

I believe that most would want to go to an AP school for a variety of reasons to include familiarity with the AP program, and (depending on when the xfer out of TJ) inability to get the diploma for IB due to missing pre-requisites. Then again, I suppose some could say they want IB because they value the supposed benefits that comes with a supposedly integrated curriculum. (I use the term "supposed" only because I really am not sure about this, but the idea of an "integrated curriculum" is reportedly the key benefit of IB...please provide a better characterization if you can.)

Related conjecture - being in an IB school appears to be a great detriment to transitory families such as military b/c it there is much less chance that there will be an IB school at your new duty station.

And for a kid that is a TJ candidate: if they are admitted, and if they go, there is always a chance that they'll bail after a year if a) the commute is too hard, or b) the stress is too much. Also, family circumstances change...if a family divorces, the custodial parent usually has a lot more logistical challenges than families where parents share duties. So, the question of bailing is not irrelevant.

If the county thinks that AP is the best curriculum for a science/math kid at TJ, it must be the best curriculum for a math/science kid outside of TJ. Otherwise, why is there no discussion of converting TJ to IB, to make them more well rounded?

There is no two-ways around this. I accept that IB is a "good" (maybe even "excellent") program for most disciplines and for many kids. But the empirical evidence supports the conclusion that AP is the "better" program for math/science kids. Otherwise, the county and TJ would be remiss for not providing IB to the kids at TJ.

Anyone able to rebut this? Extra credit for SL proponents who use principles from the Theory of Knowledge class taught in IB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: critical thinkers ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:39AM

It is interesteing how SB, FCPS staff and SL always brag about how they teach critical thinking skills.

But when a little critical thinking is actually applied to them, they react in such an emotional or knee jerk morally superior way.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 19, 2008 10:58AM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Food for thought
>
> I was reading some of the supplemental info the SB
> put on the website with the new proposals.
>
> According to the county's data, in 2006 and 2007
> 53 kids assigned to the SL area pupil placed to
> TJ. (Not sure pupil place is the correct term for
> TJ, but you get the idea.)
>
> So a question (probably impossible to answer) -
> How many of these kids might stay in SL if SL was
> AP? Will never happen, but it would be
> interesting to survey these families. Would also
> be interesting to ask these 53 families that if
> they were to switch out of TJ, would they go to SL
> IB, or to an AP school, and why.
>
> I believe that most would want to go to an AP
> school for a variety of reasons to include
> familiarity with the AP program, and (depending on
> when the xfer out of TJ) inability to get the
> diploma for IB due to missing pre-requisites. Then
> again, I suppose some could say they want IB
> because they value the supposed benefits that
> comes with a supposedly integrated curriculum. (I
> use the term "supposed" only because I really am
> not sure about this, but the idea of an
> "integrated curriculum" is reportedly the key
> benefit of IB...please provide a better
> characterization if you can.)
>
> Related conjecture - being in an IB school appears
> to be a great detriment to transitory families
> such as military b/c it there is much less chance
> that there will be an IB school at your new duty
> station.
>
> And for a kid that is a TJ candidate: if they are
> admitted, and if they go, there is always a chance
> that they'll bail after a year if a) the commute
> is too hard, or b) the stress is too much. Also,
> family circumstances change...if a family
> divorces, the custodial parent usually has a lot
> more logistical challenges than families where
> parents share duties. So, the question of bailing
> is not irrelevant.
>
> If the county thinks that AP is the best
> curriculum for a science/math kid at TJ, it must
> be the best curriculum for a math/science kid
> outside of TJ. Otherwise, why is there no
> discussion of converting TJ to IB, to make them
> more well rounded?
>
> There is no two-ways around this. I accept that
> IB is a "good" (maybe even "excellent") program
> for most disciplines and for many kids. But the
> empirical evidence supports the conclusion that AP
> is the "better" program for math/science kids.
> Otherwise, the county and TJ would be remiss for
> not providing IB to the kids at TJ.
>
> Anyone able to rebut this? Extra credit for SL
> proponents who use principles from the Theory of
> Knowledge class taught in IB.


Also, it is unlikely that credit will be given to an answer that says something like "Well, if you feel that way, then pupil place to Oakton or Madison." Such an answer will be interpreted as "You are correct, AP is the "best" program for math/science kids and I do not think SL should provide the "best" program to these students." For credit, such an answer must be supplemented with a reason "why" SL should not provide the "best" program to these students.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: HooTribe ()
Date: February 19, 2008 11:53AM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Food for thought
>
> >
> If the county thinks that AP is the best
> curriculum for a science/math kid at TJ, it must
> be the best curriculum for a math/science kid
> outside of TJ. Otherwise, why is there no
> discussion of converting TJ to IB, to make them
> more well rounded?
>
>>

I am a future SL parent who is open to switching to AP. What are the most popular AP classes in our county? In other words, if we were to ask the county to add 6 AP courses to SL (in additon to IB), what should they be? It seems like AP US History and US Government would be included. The other four could be the math/science courses with the highest level of interest. This would go a long way to address some of the immediate concerns for new families. This would also provide us time to have a full review of the IB vs. AP program at SL.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 19, 2008 11:56AM

HooTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious redux Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Food for thought
> >
> > >
> > If the county thinks that AP is the best
> > curriculum for a science/math kid at TJ, it
> must
> > be the best curriculum for a math/science kid
> > outside of TJ. Otherwise, why is there no
> > discussion of converting TJ to IB, to make them
> > more well rounded?
> >
> >>
>
> I am a future SL parent who is open to switching
> to AP. What are the most popular AP classes in
> our county? In other words, if we were to ask the
> county to add 6 AP courses to SL (in additon to
> IB), what should they be? It seems like AP US
> History and US Government would be included. The
> other four could be the math/science courses with
> the highest level of interest. This would go a
> long way to address some of the immediate concerns
> for new families. This would also provide us time
> to have a full review of the IB vs. AP program at
> SL.


No offence to you, but did you not see the budget session last week. Tina Hone suggested putting 500,000 $$ from legal fund into AP courses for SL. Was shot down by Stu saying SL first needs to reach a consensus on AP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Let's look at the data ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:25PM

Here is data direct from FCPS:

>The FCPS results for Calculus BC for 2007 are as follows:
>
>Grade Numbers of students
>5 553
>4 188
>
>Total 741
>
>Percentage of students receiving a 4 or 5 -- 68.8%

In comparison, 1 student got a 7 on the IB HL math exam, and 7 students got a 6 on that exam. (Or 8 percent of the 100 kids who took the exam got a 6 or 7.)

At MIT, the school gives credit for a 6 or 7 on the IB HL math exam, and they give credit for a 4 or 5 on the AP Cal BC exam.

Conclusions??

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:25PM

"No offence to you, but did you not see the budget session last week. Tina Hone suggested putting 500,000 $$ from legal fund into AP courses for SL. Was shot down by Stu saying SL first needs to reach a consensus on AP."

He's so committed to the school that he turns down funding to improve it.

I don't get it, either.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting - most popular AP classes
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:27PM

In 2004-05, the most popular AP courses in FCPS were:

US Government - 3304 students
US History - 2971 students
English Language and Composition - 2654 students
English Literature and Composition - 2286 students
Psychology - 1571 students
World History - 1443 students
Calculus AB - 1432 students
Calculus BC - 1063 students
Statistics - 958 students
Biology - 795 students
Spanish Language - 703 students
Environmental Science - 635 students
Chemistry - 595 students
Physics C: Mechanics - 405 students

However, some of these popular courses may not be as good or better than their IB equivalents. IB Math classes already have plenty of statistics, so it doesn't make sense to offer AP Statistics, for example. IB foreign language classes are well-regarded, so why offer AP Spanish? Ditto for AP World History.

Other popular AP classes are relatively easy, which means that they may not get as much placement credit from colleges. AP Statistics is a half-year college course taught over 1 full year in FCPS, as is AP Psychology. AP Environmental Science seems to be less well regarded than AP science courses in Biology, Chemistry and Physics C, or for that matter AP Computer Science AB.


HooTribe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a future SL parent who is open to switching
> to AP. What are the most popular AP classes in
> our county? In other words, if we were to ask the
> county to add 6 AP courses to SL (in additon to
> IB), what should they be? It seems like AP US
> History and US Government would be included. The
> other four could be the math/science courses with
> the highest level of interest. This would go a
> long way to address some of the immediate concerns
> for new families. This would also provide us time
> to have a full review of the IB vs. AP program at
> SL.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Legal Fund ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:32PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "No offence to you, but did you not see the budget
> session last week. Tina Hone suggested putting
> 500,000 $$ from legal fund into AP courses for SL.
> Was shot down by Stu saying SL first needs to
> reach a consensus on AP."
>
> He's so committed to the school that he turns down
> funding to improve it.
>
> I don't get it, either.

Did you not hear why the legal fund is the way it is??? It is a combination of two (or more) existing legal funds, and is actually overall less than last year's budgeted total. Has nothing to do with $$s for South Lakes or fear of CAPS. Sheesh.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:33PM

HooTribe Wrote:
> I am a future SL parent who is open to switching
> to AP. What are the most popular AP classes in
> our county? In other words, if we were to ask the
> county to add 6 AP courses to SL (in additon to
> IB), what should they be? It seems like AP US
> History and US Government would be included. The
> other four could be the math/science courses with
> the highest level of interest. This would go a
> long way to address some of the immediate concerns
> for new families. This would also provide us time
> to have a full review of the IB vs. AP program at
> SL.
------
For the umpteenth time, because of budget constraints and large class sizes, no FCPS high school can have both IB and full AP programs.

Even huge Robinson, which is quite possibly the largest IB school in the world, can barely support six AP courses, and NONE of them are BC Calculus or in any science. There just are not enough very bright math and science students to fill sections in both programs, and in IB schools, IB courses MUST predominate.

But to answer your question, it you were to start AP courses at SLHS next year, I would personally look at the courses Oakton offers to tenth graders (AP World Civ and Art History). Then if IB is voted out, the following year SLHS could add the AP courses most popular among juniors, including AP English Language and US History.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:35PM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Food for thought
>
> I was reading some of the supplemental info the SB
> put on the website with the new proposals.
>
> According to the county's data, in 2006 and 2007
> 53 kids assigned to the SL area pupil placed to
> TJ. (Not sure pupil place is the correct term for
> TJ, but you get the idea.)
>
> So a question (probably impossible to answer) -
> How many of these kids might stay in SL if SL was
> AP? Will never happen, but it would be
> interesting to survey these families. Would also
> be interesting to ask these 53 families that if
> they were to switch out of TJ, would they go to SL
> IB, or to an AP school, and why.
>
> I believe that most would want to go to an AP
> school for a variety of reasons to include
> familiarity with the AP program, and (depending on
> when the xfer out of TJ) inability to get the
> diploma for IB due to missing pre-requisites. Then
> again, I suppose some could say they want IB
> because they value the supposed benefits that
> comes with a supposedly integrated curriculum. (I
> use the term "supposed" only because I really am
> not sure about this, but the idea of an
> "integrated curriculum" is reportedly the key
> benefit of IB...please provide a better
> characterization if you can.)
>
> Related conjecture - being in an IB school appears
> to be a great detriment to transitory families
> such as military b/c it there is much less chance
> that there will be an IB school at your new duty
> station.
>
> And for a kid that is a TJ candidate: if they are
> admitted, and if they go, there is always a chance
> that they'll bail after a year if a) the commute
> is too hard, or b) the stress is too much. Also,
> family circumstances change...if a family
> divorces, the custodial parent usually has a lot
> more logistical challenges than families where
> parents share duties. So, the question of bailing
> is not irrelevant.
>
> If the county thinks that AP is the best
> curriculum for a science/math kid at TJ, it must
> be the best curriculum for a math/science kid
> outside of TJ. Otherwise, why is there no
> discussion of converting TJ to IB, to make them
> more well rounded?
>
> There is no two-ways around this. I accept that
> IB is a "good" (maybe even "excellent") program
> for most disciplines and for many kids. But the
> empirical evidence supports the conclusion that AP
> is the "better" program for math/science kids.
> Otherwise, the county and TJ would be remiss for
> not providing IB to the kids at TJ.
>
> Anyone able to rebut this? Extra credit for SL
> proponents who use principles from the Theory of
> Knowledge class taught in IB.

Did you know that South Lakes has a kid who LEFT TJ this year because s/he wanted a BETTER education than TJ was offering? Go figure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:37PM

HooTribe Wrote:
>
> I am a future SL parent who is open to switching
> to AP. What are the most popular AP classes in
> our county? In other words, if we were to ask the
> county to add 6 AP courses to SL (in additon to
> IB), what should they be? It seems like AP US
> History and US Government would be included. The
> other four could be the math/science courses with
> the highest level of interest. This would go a
> long way to address some of the immediate concerns
> for new families. This would also provide us time
> to have a full review of the IB vs. AP program at
> SL.

I do not know. But I will say that I have only been focused on math and science. I think the forum needs someone with a background in the other subjects to provide a pedagogical reason to supplement IB with non-math/science AP classes. However, I think there are portability (i.e., movement of students in/out of area) and perhaps financial (reportedly, IB costs more per student) for supplementing or supplanting IB with AP in all subject areas.

But as noted in another post, Stu says wait till the reboundary is done. I do not think this is unreasonable by the way. Why open a debate with people who may actually not be affected? Now, if SLPTA had courage to poll their existing population, and the existing population was in favor of a change, then there is no reason to wait for redistricting. Feb 28 is around the corner...might as well wait. If RD fails, it will only be a temporary failure. It is hard for me to believe that RD will not happen eventually. Once the dust settles on Feb 28, everyone will be able to reevaluate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:40PM

Let's look at the data Wrote:
> Here is data direct from FCPS:
>
> >The FCPS results for Calculus BC for 2007 are as
> follows:
> >
> >Grade Numbers of students
> >5 553
> >4 188
> >
> >Total 741
> >
> >Percentage of students receiving a 4 or 5 --
> 68.8% ...

------
Several of us have been looking for the AP exam results. I must have missed the original post for this one. Do you have a time and day? Can anyone post a url where we can all access these data?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:40PM

With all this talk about AP vs IB at South Lakes and whether SL will change from IB to AP, the problem I am seeing is this: South Lakes is the only IB high school in the west county. Which high school is the nearest IB high school if SL converts back to full AP? This is why this is very difficult thinking RD is the easiest solution for SL when it really is not the smartest solution. What if there are students out in the west county who want to participate in the IB program if SL converts to AP?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:42PM

Did you know that a Senior I know got a 740 this year on the US History SAT II having complete IB History of the Americas last year? Not only did he cover allthe US history he needed for that exam (except for two hours' of nuggets in the SAT II review book), he covered it in context with the rest of this hemisphere of which we are inextricably a part. He can tell you how slavery in Latin America affected decisionmaking here in the 1850s. He can tell you how the civil wars in Brazil and the US were similar and different, and about the nature of civil wars themselves. He can tell you, say, whether he thinks the war in Iraq is or isn't a civil war and he could weigh what our leaders are telling us when they ask for support for their foreign policies. He voted for the first time last week, and he was better informed than most adults I know. Go figure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:44PM

Forum Reader,

It is possible for FCPS high schools to offer the standard AP courses, including AP Calculus BC, in addition to the IB program. That's done at many IB high schools. It's just that FCPS staff has refused to do the same, because they do not want to provide students in IB high schools with these choices. Please don't confuse FCPS policy with what is theoretically possible.

Forum Reader Wrote:
> For the umpteenth time, because of budget
> constraints and large class sizes, no FCPS high
> school can have both IB and full AP programs.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: HooTribe ()
Date: February 19, 2008 12:56PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "No offence to you, but did you not see the budget
> session last week. Tina Hone suggested putting
> 500,000 $$ from legal fund into AP courses for SL.
> Was shot down by Stu saying SL first needs to
> reach a consensus on AP."
>
> He's so committed to the school that he turns down
> funding to improve it.
>
> I don't get it, either.

Thanks to all who replied.

I understand there are budget issues, but if there is enough money for all the admin overhead, legal funds, etc. there has got to be enough to add 4 AP courses to the 2 they have planned for SL. They could pick the classes that are most wanted and/or complement IB the best. If it means that it will address the valid concerns for those who may be moved, I am for it. It may actually save some of the legal costs.

As for Stu's opposition, I don't understand it. This would have bought time for a review, and allowed it to be less emotional.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: wellllll ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:05PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you know that a Senior I know got a 740 this
> year on the US History SAT II having complete IB
> History of the Americas last year? Not only did he
> cover allthe US history he needed for that exam
> (except for two hours' of nuggets in the SAT II
> review book), he covered it in context with the
> rest of this hemisphere of which we are
> inextricably a part. He can tell you how slavery
> in Latin America affected decisionmaking here in
> the 1850s. He can tell you how the civil wars in
> Brazil and the US were similar and different, and
> about the nature of civil wars themselves. He can
> tell you, say, whether he thinks the war in Iraq
> is or isn't a civil war and he could weigh what
> our leaders are telling us when they ask for
> support for their foreign policies. He voted for
> the first time last week, and he was better
> informed than most adults I know. Go figure.


This is a nice story...the child, his family and teaches should be proud. But how would anyone but his parents and teachers know this. And how is this relevant, particularly to the question of what is, or is not, the best math/science curriculum for math/science kids. Many people can provide many testimonials about their experiences and the experiences of their children, in either AP or IB. Testimonials offer some emotional salve, but do not offer much in terms of data, particularly when you get get postive testimonials from both sides.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:11PM

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader,
>
> It is possible for FCPS high schools to offer the
> standard AP courses, including AP Calculus BC, in
> addition to the IB program. That's done at many
> IB high schools. It's just that FCPS staff has
> refused to do the same, because they do not want
> to provide students in IB high schools with these
> choices. Please don't confuse FCPS policy with
> what is theoretically possible.
>
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > For the umpteenth time, because of budget
> > constraints and large class sizes, no FCPS high
> > school can have both IB and full AP programs.

Solution: Send 700+ more kids to South Lakes and it will have enough students to consider add-on classes that don't conflict with existing IB classes. AP US Government might be one of them. AP English isn't needed; IB and MYIB English classes are outstanding and teach kids to read, analyze, and write. AP BC Calc isn't needed. IB HL Math -- the two year course that basically is AP pre-calc/calc combined -- contains all the BC calculus (with the calculus unit that most teachers adopt.)

And guess what, Scientists and Engineers and Physicists and Mathematicians need to know how to write!!! I work with them all, every day. Those that can't write are left behind because they can't produce today's deliverables (written reports and recommendations) or contribute to earning their bread via proposal writing. Read Albert Einstein's book, "Relativity: The Special and General Theory--A Clear Explanation that Anyone Can Understand." His theories did not gain support because he was a genius. They gained acclaim because he could explain them.

And once more, with feeling: Colleges give course EXEMPTION for IB science classes AND labs. Many only give course exemption for AP courses only, not the labs.

The issue of what AP courses to add to an IB curriculum is a discussion that can only be had when people who are wedded to AP fully understand IB. That isn't happening yet. (For example, some folks writing recently think the term "paper" in IB means -- a traditional written wordy paper. It means "exam.")

I believe many who are opposed to going to South Lakes for any reason are using the AP/IB argument as the latest rock to throw but aren't genuinely interested in understanding IB or weighing curriculum options. Not all, but many. Hard to tell the difference.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSbullies ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:13PM

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> >
> Please know that the Fox Mill PTA hasn't done
> anything, just the PTA President alone. She does
> NOT represent the feelings of the PTA or the rest
> of the Fox Mill families.
> >
Seriously? You are now trying to make this claim regarding the Fox Mill PTSA president when all of you have been accusing the families of SL based on the actions by the SL boundary group! Some one needs to take a step back and look in the mirror!

Question.....Are all of you going to wear your yellow shirts tonight? Maybe harass any SL parent or student that enters the room? Maybe boo and hiss when they speak or place large signs in front of them?

Don't ever accuse SL of having gangs because guess what, you have become the biggest gang in the county. You should all be very proud!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:21PM

Somebody's got a new nickname or two.

Wouldn't it be more convincing if you altered the message a bit to make it objective, or at least turned down the hyperbole: "latest rock to throw", "the biggest gang in the county"?

You're not helping your cause. I'm sure even SL fans cringe when you post this stuff, whether or not they show support in public.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:24PM

wellllll Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Did you know that a Senior I know got a 740
> this
> > year on the US History SAT II having complete
> IB
> > History of the Americas last year? Not only did
> he
> > cover allthe US history he needed for that exam
> > (except for two hours' of nuggets in the SAT II
> > review book), he covered it in context with the
> > rest of this hemisphere of which we are
> > inextricably a part. He can tell you how
> slavery
> > in Latin America affected decisionmaking here
> in
> > the 1850s. He can tell you how the civil wars
> in
> > Brazil and the US were similar and different,
> and
> > about the nature of civil wars themselves. He
> can
> > tell you, say, whether he thinks the war in
> Iraq
> > is or isn't a civil war and he could weigh what
> > our leaders are telling us when they ask for
> > support for their foreign policies. He voted
> for
> > the first time last week, and he was better
> > informed than most adults I know. Go figure.
>
>
> This is a nice story...the child, his family and
> teaches should be proud. But how would anyone but
> his parents and teachers know this. And how is
> this relevant, particularly to the question of
> what is, or is not, the best math/science
> curriculum for math/science kids. Many people can
> provide many testimonials about their experiences
> and the experiences of their children, in either
> AP or IB. Testimonials offer some emotional
> salve, but do not offer much in terms of data,
> particularly when you get get postive testimonials
> from both sides.

"How would anyone... know?" How about listening and learning. This has been explained already. How about opening your mind. How about not being one of the many who just plain don't want to go to South Lakes for any reason on Earth and are using IB as a shibboleth? "Give us evidence IB is any good, but we only accept raw data and no testimonials from teachers or administrators or parents, but we refuse to accept raw data or expert opinion as the truth or we twist it around by skewing percentages and forgetting what 'averages' mean, etc etc." This kind of twisty, turny refusal is evidence that the persons doing this care only for anything that supports their anti-South Lakes views. Period.

Several posters here have repeated that many IB courses align with AP courses such that you can take the SATs and AP tests and get credit/exemption. Opponents just don't want to believe that. Many kids take the SAT IIs (This boy I spoke of also got a 750 for SAT Math Level II after having taken the IB SL Math course -- SL! not HL! He isn't a genius. Just a very good student. But you wouldn't care about that, I'm sure.) Most kids don't take the APs because they don't need to. IBs are sufficient. Furthermore, you don't need to "cram" for AP exams as just about every AP kid I know does, because everything that's needed for the IB tests is taught throughout the year, cumulatively, and IB-type tests are given all year long. Another advantage.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Date: February 19, 2008 01:24PM

CAPSbullies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > taxpayer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> >
> > >
> > Please know that the Fox Mill PTA hasn't done
> > anything, just the PTA President alone. She
> does
> > NOT represent the feelings of the PTA or the
> rest
> > of the Fox Mill families.
> > >
> Seriously? You are now trying to make this claim
> regarding the Fox Mill PTSA president when all of
> you have been accusing the families of SL based on
> the actions by the SL boundary group! Some one
> needs to take a step back and look in the mirror!
>
> Question.....Are all of you going to wear your
> yellow shirts tonight? Maybe harass any SL parent
> or student that enters the room? Maybe boo and
> hiss when they speak or place large signs in front
> of them?
>
> Don't ever accuse SL of having gangs because guess
> what, you have become the biggest gang in the
> county. You should all be very proud!


I have to say that when I walked in the Feb 9th hearing and saw all the yellow shirts, the irony of the situation was not lost on me. I mean, if anybody should have come to the meeting in gang garb and used intimidating gang tactics, it should have been South Lakes, right?:)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2008 01:27PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:27PM

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPSbullies Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > taxpayer Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > Please know that the Fox Mill PTA hasn't done
> > > anything, just the PTA President alone. She
> > does
> > > NOT represent the feelings of the PTA or the
> > rest
> > > of the Fox Mill families.
> > > >
> > Seriously? You are now trying to make this
> claim
> > regarding the Fox Mill PTSA president when all
> of
> > you have been accusing the families of SL based
> on
> > the actions by the SL boundary group! Some one
> > needs to take a step back and look in the
> mirror!
> >
> > Question.....Are all of you going to wear your
> > yellow shirts tonight? Maybe harass any SL
> parent
> > or student that enters the room? Maybe boo and
> > hiss when they speak or place large signs in
> front
> > of them?
> >
> > Don't ever accuse SL of having gangs because
> guess
> > what, you have become the biggest gang in the
> > county. You should all be very proud!
>
>
> I have to say that when I walked in the Feb 9th
> hearing and saw all the yellow shirts, the irony
> of the situation was not lost on me. I mean, if
> anybody should have come to the meeting in gang
> garb and used intimidating gang tactics, it should
> have been South Lakes :)

Not to mention the greenies. It was amusing in a warped way.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSbullies ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:41PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Somebody's got a new nickname or two.
>
> Wouldn't it be more convincing if you altered the
> message a bit to make it objective, or at least
> turned down the hyperbole: "latest rock to throw",
> "the biggest gang in the county"?
>
> You're not helping your cause. I'm sure even SL
> fans cringe when you post this stuff, whether or
> not they show support in public.

Nice try but I'm not another "nickname or two". Quit trying to blame others. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Sounds like I hit a nerve. Did you get your yellow t-shirt drycleaned before tonight? Maybe buy a matching jacket or vest? At least the "islanders" had enough brains to have logos and graphics on their t-shirts. You just stole their idea.

Smile big for all the cameras.......

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Speed Needed ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:44PM

Looks like most of the speakers are from Floris. I don't live in any affected community and I have to wonder how those board members without a dog in this race will hold up. Wonder if the board will stay awake through this. Thank God for ADD- Speed is readily available to one and all.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:54PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CAPSbullies Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > fm/c/o parent Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > taxpayer Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Please know that the Fox Mill PTA hasn't
> done
> > > > anything, just the PTA President alone. She
> > > does
> > > > NOT represent the feelings of the PTA or
> the
> > > rest
> > > > of the Fox Mill families.
> > > > >
> > > Seriously? You are now trying to make this
> > claim
> > > regarding the Fox Mill PTSA president when
> all
> > of
> > > you have been accusing the families of SL
> based
> > on
> > > the actions by the SL boundary group! Some
> one
> > > needs to take a step back and look in the
> > mirror!
> > >
> > > Question.....Are all of you going to wear
> your
> > > yellow shirts tonight? Maybe harass any SL
> > parent
> > > or student that enters the room? Maybe boo
> and
> > > hiss when they speak or place large signs in
> > front
> > > of them?
> > >
> > > Don't ever accuse SL of having gangs because
> > guess
> > > what, you have become the biggest gang in the
> > > county. You should all be very proud!
> >
> >
> > I have to say that when I walked in the Feb 9th
> > hearing and saw all the yellow shirts, the
> irony
> > of the situation was not lost on me. I mean,
> if
> > anybody should have come to the meeting in gang
> > garb and used intimidating gang tactics, it
> should
> > have been South Lakes :)
>
> Not to mention the greenies. It was amusing in a
> warped way.


Seems like someone has come up with new nicknames. I just want to say some things. You have mentioned we need to have an open mind about the IB program. Do you know any families who have done research on IB vs AP programs and decided which program was best for their kids if their kids wanted to participate in either the IB or AP program? Personally this is not fair for one to say "bring 700+ kids" as if they are numbers. For pete's sakes, these are real children with their own different educational needs. No need to rub in our faces and saying we must have an open mind about the IB program and expect us to accept the IB program. I am sure there are parents out there who have been educated about the IB and AP programs and to make decisions with their kids what is best fit for them.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Where ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:56PM

Just wonder where you put those 700+ kids? SL current enrollemnt already 1500, more trailers? Or another 60 millon addition?

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Solution: Send 700+ more kids to South Lakes and
> it will have enough students to consider add-on
> classes that don't conflict with existing IB
> classes. AP US Government might be one of them. AP
> English isn't needed; IB and MYIB English classes
> are outstanding and teach kids to read, analyze,
> and write. AP BC Calc isn't needed. IB HL Math --
> the two year course that basically is AP
> pre-calc/calc combined -- contains all the BC
> calculus (with the calculus unit that most
> teachers adopt.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Oakton Parent ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:57PM

Nice Try, IBidiot.

"You really have no idea what you are talking about."

I am not affiliated with CAPS in any way. That said, on balance, their claims aboout the process, programs, and issues that affect the schools seem to be to be better researched and make more sense than your tired, hysterical screeds.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 19, 2008 01:58PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> "How would anyone... know?" How about listening
> and learning. This has been explained already. How
> about opening your mind. How about not being one
> of the many who just plain don't want to go to
> South Lakes for any reason on Earth and are using
> IB as a shibboleth? "Give us evidence IB is any
> good, but we only accept raw data and no
> testimonials from teachers or administrators or
> parents, but we refuse to accept raw data or
> expert opinion as the truth or we twist it around
> by skewing percentages and forgetting what
> 'averages' mean, etc etc." This kind of twisty,
> turny refusal is evidence that the persons doing
> this care only for anything that supports their
> anti-South Lakes views. Period.
>
> Several posters here have repeated that many IB
> courses align with AP courses such that you can
> take the SATs and AP tests and get
> credit/exemption. Opponents just don't want to
> believe that. Many kids take the SAT IIs (This boy
> I spoke of also got a 750 for SAT Math Level II
> after having taken the IB SL Math course -- SL!
> not HL! He isn't a genius. Just a very good
> student. But you wouldn't care about that, I'm
> sure.) Most kids don't take the APs because they
> don't need to. IBs are sufficient. Furthermore,
> you don't need to "cram" for AP exams as just
> about every AP kid I know does, because everything
> that's needed for the IB tests is taught
> throughout the year, cumulatively, and IB-type
> tests are given all year long. Another advantage.


It was a fair question...you asked if anyone knew about this kid, and someone asked how would anyone know about this kid? I guess the original question was a rhetorical construct to provoke conversation, rather than a literal question.

Re: using IB as an excuse for avoiding SL, you do not know what you are talking about. I for one was in favor of the RD for a few reasons, but mainly b/c SL is easier to get to from my neighborhood. I was not too concerned about the statistics relevant to lower test scores and greater disciplinary problems as I figured statistics could change. But I changed my view when I researched IB. IB is a make or break issue for my family. I have had conversations with upward to a dozen targeted families who have the same opinion...some might prefer Oakton, but could live with SL but for the IB. So let's put down the broad brush and be specific:

Do you oppose switching to AP? Why?

Will you be affected by a future change to AP? I assume your kid is already there...do you have a younger child in the pipeline?

If not affected, why do you care?

If you are affected, are you concerned your younger kid will not get a good education with AP? What about AP is a problem for your younger kid?

And, if IB is the best fit for your younger child, and if AP replaced IB in SL, would you be amenable to pupil placing your kid in an IB school somewhere else in the county?

Try to answer each question individually without bitterness or hyperbole. Extra credit for trying to answer my earlier questions. No fair to just rant as it convinces no one.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:00PM

WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > A MUCH better choice would have
> > been AP calculus. People have mentioned
> wanting
> > that course.
>
> Of course we'd want it, but as long as SL is an IB
> school, the problem with offering AP Calc is that
> they MUST offer SL and HL Math. (SL for the
> Diploma candidates who can't hack HL, and HL for
> those who can.)


The above is a clear example of the type of willful ignorance that I have mentioned. Using IB Diploma populations as stand-ins for the whole IB enchilada is willful ignorance if not worse. The Diploma is pursued by a small percentage, equivalent to the FCPS AP Diploma that has strict requirements. Second, this person is suggesting that SL and HL are only for diploma candidates. This is totally false, but it is idiotic of me to say so, since this person is anti-South Lakes and nothing, not the truth nor the facts nor data, will move him. By repeating falsehoods, he spreads lies to everyone else. It is a shibboleth. It is ignoble and unworthy of a vaunted Westfield education.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:02PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nice Try, IBidiot.
>
> "You really have no idea what you are talking
> about."
>
> I am not affiliated with CAPS in any way. That
> said, on balance, their claims aboout the process,
> programs, and issues that affect the schools seem
> to be to be better researched and make more sense
> than your tired, hysterical screeds.


"Seem to be." Exactly.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: ib kid ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:04PM

So ... the well-informed young man who took History of the Americas and felt it prepared him to vote for the first time last week .... may I ask for whom he cast his vote?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:07PM

curious redux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ Shales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > "How would anyone... know?" How about listening
> > and learning. This has been explained already.
> How
> > about opening your mind. How about not being
> one
> > of the many who just plain don't want to go to
> > South Lakes for any reason on Earth and are
> using
> > IB as a shibboleth? "Give us evidence IB is any
> > good, but we only accept raw data and no
> > testimonials from teachers or administrators or
> > parents, but we refuse to accept raw data or
> > expert opinion as the truth or we twist it
> around
> > by skewing percentages and forgetting what
> > 'averages' mean, etc etc." This kind of twisty,
> > turny refusal is evidence that the persons
> doing
> > this care only for anything that supports their
> > anti-South Lakes views. Period.
> >
> > Several posters here have repeated that many IB
> > courses align with AP courses such that you can
> > take the SATs and AP tests and get
> > credit/exemption. Opponents just don't want to
> > believe that. Many kids take the SAT IIs (This
> boy
> > I spoke of also got a 750 for SAT Math Level II
> > after having taken the IB SL Math course -- SL!
> > not HL! He isn't a genius. Just a very good
> > student. But you wouldn't care about that, I'm
> > sure.) Most kids don't take the APs because
> they
> > don't need to. IBs are sufficient. Furthermore,
> > you don't need to "cram" for AP exams as just
> > about every AP kid I know does, because
> everything
> > that's needed for the IB tests is taught
> > throughout the year, cumulatively, and IB-type
> > tests are given all year long. Another
> advantage.
>
>
> It was a fair question...you asked if anyone knew
> about this kid, and someone asked how would anyone
> know about this kid? I guess the original
> question was a rhetorical construct to provoke
> conversation, rather than a literal question.
>
> Re: using IB as an excuse for avoiding SL, you do
> not know what you are talking about. I for one
> was in favor of the RD for a few reasons, but
> mainly b/c SL is easier to get to from my
> neighborhood. I was not too concerned about the
> statistics relevant to lower test scores and
> greater disciplinary problems as I figured
> statistics could change. But I changed my view
> when I researched IB. IB is a make or break issue
> for my family. I have had conversations with
> upward to a dozen targeted families who have the
> same opinion...some might prefer Oakton, but could
> live with SL but for the IB. So let's put down
> the broad brush and be specific:
>
> Do you oppose switching to AP? Why?
>
> Will you be affected by a future change to AP? I
> assume your kid is already there...do you have a
> younger child in the pipeline?
>
> If not affected, why do you care?
>
> If you are affected, are you concerned your
> younger kid will not get a good education with AP?
> What about AP is a problem for your younger kid?
>
>
> And, if IB is the best fit for your younger child,
> and if AP replaced IB in SL, would you be amenable
> to pupil placing your kid in an IB school
> somewhere else in the county?
>
> Try to answer each question individually without
> bitterness or hyperbole. Extra credit for trying
> to answer my earlier questions. No fair to just
> rant as it convinces no one.

Why should South Lakes switch to an inferior AP program just to appease a few incoming families who have bought into the College Board's mantra? (Ha! Your turn to use facts to convince ME AP is superior!) Go ahead and pupil-place out without giving IB a fair shot - and you haven't. "Targeted family opinions" don't count. Nobody's stopping you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: TJ Shales ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:08PM

ib kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So ... the well-informed young man who took
> History of the Americas and felt it prepared him
> to vote for the first time last week .... may I
> ask for whom he cast his vote?


He believes in secret ballots. But I will reveal it wasn't a Democrat.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: YOO ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:11PM

ib kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So ... the well-informed young man who took
> History of the Americas and felt it prepared him
> to vote for the first time last week .... may I
> ask for whom he cast his vote?


who cares. why does it matter.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: CAPSbullies ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:14PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nice Try, IBidiot.
>
> "You really have no idea what you are talking
> about."
>
> I am not affiliated with CAPS in any way. That
> said, on balance, their claims aboout the process,
> programs, and issues that affect the schools seem
> to be to be better researched and make more sense
> than your tired, hysterical screeds.

I'm not IBidiot but thank you for playing. Good for you for putting distance between you and CAPS. I would do the same. Plus I don't own yellow so I can't be a member of the "club".

I have only posted here today so I'm unsure what you are saying about the tired, hysterical screeds.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Manoj Bal ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:18PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious redux Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TJ Shales Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > "How would anyone... know?" How about
> listening
> > > and learning. This has been explained
> already.
> > How
> > > about opening your mind. How about not being
> > one
> > > of the many who just plain don't want to go
> to
> > > South Lakes for any reason on Earth and are
> > using
> > > IB as a shibboleth? "Give us evidence IB is
> any
> > > good, but we only accept raw data and no
> > > testimonials from teachers or administrators
> or
> > > parents, but we refuse to accept raw data or
> > > expert opinion as the truth or we twist it
> > around
> > > by skewing percentages and forgetting what
> > > 'averages' mean, etc etc." This kind of
> twisty,
> > > turny refusal is evidence that the persons
> > doing
> > > this care only for anything that supports
> their
> > > anti-South Lakes views. Period.
> > >
> > > Several posters here have repeated that many
> IB
> > > courses align with AP courses such that you
> can
> > > take the SATs and AP tests and get
> > > credit/exemption. Opponents just don't want
> to
> > > believe that. Many kids take the SAT IIs
> (This
> > boy
> > > I spoke of also got a 750 for SAT Math Level
> II
> > > after having taken the IB SL Math course --
> SL!
> > > not HL! He isn't a genius. Just a very good
> > > student. But you wouldn't care about that,
> I'm
> > > sure.) Most kids don't take the APs because
> > they
> > > don't need to. IBs are sufficient.
> Furthermore,
> > > you don't need to "cram" for AP exams as just
> > > about every AP kid I know does, because
> > everything
> > > that's needed for the IB tests is taught
> > > throughout the year, cumulatively, and
> IB-type
> > > tests are given all year long. Another
> > advantage.
> >
> >
> > It was a fair question...you asked if anyone
> knew
> > about this kid, and someone asked how would
> anyone
> > know about this kid? I guess the original
> > question was a rhetorical construct to provoke
> > conversation, rather than a literal question.
> >
> > Re: using IB as an excuse for avoiding SL, you
> do
> > not know what you are talking about. I for one
> > was in favor of the RD for a few reasons, but
> > mainly b/c SL is easier to get to from my
> > neighborhood. I was not too concerned about
> the
> > statistics relevant to lower test scores and
> > greater disciplinary problems as I figured
> > statistics could change. But I changed my view
> > when I researched IB. IB is a make or break
> issue
> > for my family. I have had conversations with
> > upward to a dozen targeted families who have
> the
> > same opinion...some might prefer Oakton, but
> could
> > live with SL but for the IB. So let's put down
> > the broad brush and be specific:
> >
> > Do you oppose switching to AP? Why?
> >
> > Will you be affected by a future change to AP?
> I
> > assume your kid is already there...do you have
> a
> > younger child in the pipeline?
> >
> > If not affected, why do you care?
> >
> > If you are affected, are you concerned your
> > younger kid will not get a good education with
> AP?
> > What about AP is a problem for your younger
> kid?
> >
> >
> > And, if IB is the best fit for your younger
> child,
> > and if AP replaced IB in SL, would you be
> amenable
> > to pupil placing your kid in an IB school
> > somewhere else in the county?
> >
> > Try to answer each question individually
> without
> > bitterness or hyperbole. Extra credit for
> trying
> > to answer my earlier questions. No fair to
> just
> > rant as it convinces no one.
>
> Why should South Lakes switch to an inferior AP
> program just to appease a few incoming families
> who have bought into the College Board's mantra?
> (Ha! Your turn to use facts to convince ME AP is
> superior!) Go ahead and pupil-place out without
> giving IB a fair shot - and you haven't. "Targeted
> family opinions" don't count. Nobody's stopping
> you.


2 things.

1) You seem fairly confident that you will get these warm bodies. May be master Stu has the deal sealed. Good for you.

2) These are kids we are talking about. Forcing them to try something that they do not want as far as educational program is concerned is easy for a stranger to say. Put yourself in their shoes. Why don't you ask your kids to pupil place into a AP program and try it out.

The problem is school board and these puppets of master Stu think kids are like widgets that can be placed anywhere.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Baffled ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:18PM

Oakton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nice Try, IBidiot.
>
> "You really have no idea what you are talking
> about."
>
> I am not affiliated with CAPS in any way. That
> said, on balance, their claims aboout the process,
> programs, and issues that affect the schools seem
> to be to be better researched and make more sense
> than your tired, hysterical screeds.

Maybe we ought to let Neen deal with these new "screeders" on the block.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Let's look at the data ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:19PM

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's look at the data Wrote:
> > Here is data direct from FCPS:
> >
> > >The FCPS results for Calculus BC for 2007 are
> as
> > follows:
> > >
> > >Grade Numbers of students
> > >5 553
> > >4 188
> > >
> > >Total 741
> > >
> > >Percentage of students receiving a 4 or 5 --
> > 68.8% ...
>
> ------
> Several of us have been looking for the AP exam
> results. I must have missed the original post for
> this one. Do you have a time and day? Can anyone
> post a url where we can all access these data?


This data was provided to me via email today from the FCPS Department of Communications and Community Outreach. I made the request over the weekend, and the information arrived early today. (I just asked and it was provided.) I don't think it's listed on the webpage...on the web all that is listed is just the figure on the number of students who got a 3 and above on the AP exam (which happens to be 83 percent.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: curious redux ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:20PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
> Why should South Lakes switch to an inferior AP
> program just to appease a few incoming families
> who have bought into the College Board's mantra?
> (Ha! Your turn to use facts to convince ME AP is
> superior!) Go ahead and pupil-place out without
> giving IB a fair shot - and you haven't. "Targeted
> family opinions" don't count. Nobody's stopping
> you.

Your failure to attempt to provide reasonable answers to reasonable questions suggests either a) you are too emotional to be rational; and/or b) you have no answers, and that you have simply bought into the IBO's mantra. Either way, you are unable or unwilling to find and analyze facts (v. opinions) that can be used logically to convince anyone, perhaps even yourself, that AP is inferior. But contrary to your note, I feel that the opinions of families targeted to have IB pulled away from them do count. If you are really as adament as it seems (rather than just fired up), based on the number and quality of comments made by SL and targeted families alike, it is likely that any younger child you have will have to be pupil placed without giving AP a fair shot. Luckily, nobody is stopping you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: quantum ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:20PM

Actually, TJ takes a stab at the theory of knowledge platform - i.e., by emphasizing the importance of inter-connections between disciplines - in its IBET program taught to its 9th graders. I am not sure that it in any way elevates critical thinking, and its promise of crystalizing interconnections while stimulating critical thinking goes largely unfilled. Don't get me wrong - I think IBET is a great program - it attracts some great teachers - the most important part of any school, bar none - but its lustre exists for reasons largely unrelated to academics. With kids coming from all over a 5 county area, IBET helps form social and group identiies that ease the social transition to the school - and from that perspective - it is helpful and a positive. I mention this because all arguments over curricula need to be extremely factually based.

The IB program appears to offer the same promise - and sometimes that promise is fulfilled with exceedingly high achieving students (note high achieving is the right term - I would think that students can (and do) survive an IB Diploma program in the absence of a genius or near genius IQ, which is not the case at TJ). I see the program, and it would have been a good program for me - I would have liked it and its breadth - but I read really, really fast and I have never spent more than 20 hours a week in any academic activity - ever - so its make work components and depth of study would have been fine for me. But I also turned down several engineering programs in my youth - despite testing really well in those fields - because I couldn't imagine doing that work for a minute and really tilted away from that kind of focus - the kind that a heavier duty AP program presents. Likewise with today's students, IB seems like a program for those competent students that know themselves well, and believe it caters to their strengths. In this vein, the program has the hallmarks of a niche, European (meaning really for the elite) style education, and is a difficult sell to a middle class population seeking a technically oriented, American style, pluralistic education. Once again it might be helpful to remind folks that one can easily be supportive of the IB program while at the same time making clear is it not something that their children would like or benefit from - a grasp for mutual exclusivity is reflective of emotionalism and a false desire for symmetry that doesn't accomplish anything.

IB is what it is - if the program doesn't work for significant numbers of people, then SL and others need to implement other market based solutions - or alternatively, be eminently happy with its mission and its lesser population of students. Intense marketing of how great the program is just won't cut it - it is just not for the masses. Put another way, the IB issue will be around irrespective of redistricting, so the issue is not really one of redistricting but rather one of reaching a collective school identity and of that the school discerning its mission. In the end SLHS will in one way or another come to grips with the fact that there is a cause and effect between curriculum, excellence and population - and that is neither a bad thing nor a good thing - it is what it is - and it certainly would be healthy for that institution to evaluate whether more students comports with its chosen identity - it may indeed not - even if there is a primordial instinct to fill a glitzy new structure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Ken Kesey ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:23PM

TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ib kid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So ... the well-informed young man who took
> > History of the Americas and felt it prepared
> him
> > to vote for the first time last week .... may I
> > ask for whom he cast his vote?
>
>
> He believes in secret ballots. But I will reveal
> it wasn't a Democrat.


WHAT? I thought anyone who says anything supportive, or open-minded, about SLHS is a patchouli-wearing, koombiyah-singing, unshaven, Marx-spewing Democrat!!! That's what the Anti-Redistricting Handbook says.

If that ain't so, what else on this 222-page screed isn't the TRUTH, too?

Hey y'all in the Yeller-shirts, pass me that kool-aid, will ya?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: WARNING! ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:33PM

CAPSbullies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Nice try but I'm not another "nickname or two".
> Quit trying to blame others. You really have no
> idea what you are talking about.
>
> Sounds like I hit a nerve. Did you get your
> yellow t-shirt drycleaned before tonight? Maybe
> buy a matching jacket or vest? At least the
> "islanders" had enough brains to have logos and
> graphics on their t-shirts. You just stole their
> idea.
>
> Smile big for all the cameras.......


Some recommended safety precautions for tonights meeting:


1. If you see a CAPS member, or ANYONE wearing yellow, DO NOT make eye contact. Walk quickly, quietly, and with a purpose.

2. Park as close to the auditorium as possible. Avoid walking around the back of the building, dark alleys, between cars, or other poorly lit areas.

3. Make sure to walk in pairs or if at all possible groups of multiple people (yes, I understand it may be hard to find other SL supporters to walk with).

4. Do NOT carry any valuables. This should go without saying.

5. If, after all this, you happen into an altercation with a CAPS member or anyone wearing yellow, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: APorIBMom ()
Date: February 19, 2008 02:35PM

TJ Shales,

Thank you for pointing out one of the vertical articulation problems for students who take Algebra 1 in 7th grade and then attend an IB high school. These kids normally take geometry in 8th, Algebra 2/Trig in 9th, Precalc in 10th. In an AP high school, they'd take Calculus AB or Calculus BC in 11th. But in an IB high school in FCPS, they would take HL Math in 11th and 12th - where they would spend most of their junior year relearning precalculus.


TJ Shales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
AP BC Calc isn't needed. IB HL Math --
> the two year course that basically is AP
> pre-calc/calc combined -- contains all the BC
> calculus (with the calculus unit that most
> teachers adopt.)

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