five of the six IB schools are located in high FRL areas. SBMs are deliberately creating a underclass of these areas by denying them AP. Are there not any laws that prohibit SB to openly discriminate like this?

aprocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJHSST Student Named Siemens National Winner;
> Lake Braddock Secondary Recognized for AP
> Performance
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrele
> ase.cfm?newsid=800
>
>
> www.fcps.edu/suptapps/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm
> ?newsid=800
>
> No chance of that happening at SL with no AP

FCCOPK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/833
> 11.html
>
> As an 06 graduate of SL in the "partier crowd" I
> never witnessed any drugs other than marijuana at
> SL parties. If we went to other schools' parties,
> there were definately harder drugs going on.
> Obviously this is just personal experience, but it
> is truth,


In case you didn't know it, marijuana is ILLEGAL and leads to other "harder" drugs! It's like saying, "I'm just a little pregnant!" Get real!

This is from another thread and shows that no high school is immune from problems. Perhaps those Westfield parents who have spent so much time putting down another school will think before speaking negatively again:

Posted by: Westfield Student (IP Logged)
Date: March 14, 2008 02:47PM

Today at Westfield High School at about 8:05AM, there was a drug raid. Classrooms were all forced to lock down, and the police department brought in hounds and visited EVERY locker pod to sniff for illegal substances. Several students were caught possessing marijuana, ecstacy tablets, heroin, acid, and many other forms of narcotics.

One sophomore in gym walking back from BowlAmerica (which counts as a unit) was caught possessing a large plastic bag of anti-depressants, which he intended to sell on school grounds.

At least 10 students were apprehended and are facing expulsion and serious criminal charges. Students possessing heroin needles and cocaine were arrested immediately. Rumor states that approximately 37 students in total, were caught.

3 students are facing expulsion and arrest after dogs found containers with marijuana brownies laced with ecstacy, in two senior locker bays.

What was once among problems associated with schools like (snip) seems to be more prominent at Westfield High than is expressed by students and faculty. The Fairfax County Police Dept is currently investigating on several cases at Westfield High School, targeting students and staff that might be affiliated with such illegal business, in hopes to end this drug problem.

Floris Mom of 16 Years Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Sick of This:
>
> You are right. This bitterness will last for many
> many years. I have two more years in this school
> system until my last child graduates. And
> personally I can't wait. While I do believe that
> my children have gotten a great education, the
> politics and arrogance of the School Board have
> gotten totally out of hand. Floris has been
> railroaded too many times, and our community is
> just plain tired now. I'll stay here until my
> youngest graduates and then I will let out a big
> sigh of relief. I blame the FCPS School Board, in
> particular Mr. Stu Gibson, and the SL PTA
> President for creating the biggest debacle I have
> ever seen in my 20 year experience with this
> school system


Floris Mom and Sick of this, I agree. The other day I was at the Fox Mill Subway with my kids. We could hear a mom with two teenagers talking about the redistricting. They sounded very frustrated. No doubt, this will not be forgotten, not for a very long time. People will still be talking about this RD. It is just baffling how Stu and most of the SB harped at the RD'ed families through their speeches at the last boundary meeting for being so objective to the RD and that they did not care about how those RD'ed families felt. Now that the RD is done, it should be interesting to see what the results would be for SL in the long run. Will SL be able to retain their student members through 4 years of each student especially if those who wants to go for AP?

Baffled Wrote:
> Now that the RD is done, it should be
> interesting to see what the results would be for
> SL in the long run. Will SL be able to retain
> their student members through 4 years of each
> student especially if those who wants to go for
> AP?

RD IS NOT DONE. A long court battle lies ahead that will start shortly. Do not give up too easily. Instead send in a check to fairfaxcaps.org

The rd battle is only one battle in the larger effort to unseat this arrogant and morally corrupt SB. The real battle will be in the next elections - now that the dirty secrets of these SBMs is out in the open.


rdisnotdone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> > Now that the RD is done, it should be
> > interesting to see what the results would be
> for
> > SL in the long run. Will SL be able to retain
> > their student members through 4 years of each
> > student especially if those who wants to go for
> > AP?
>
> RD IS NOT DONE. A long court battle lies ahead
> that will start shortly. Do not give up too
> easily. Instead send in a check to fairfaxcaps.org

Lest we forget Stu's inflammatory tirade against those of us who have been redistricted, here it is:
>
> Stu's tirade
>
> ….but given that over the last few weeks, I’ve tried
> to address specific issues that have been brought to
> my attention, by members of the community only to
> see those distorted and used to attack people who
> are kind of sitting on the sidelines, and I am
> specifically referring to the PTA president of Fox
> Mill Elem school who did nothing wrong
> whatsoever…the students of that school should not
> have to suffer because people disagree with the PTA
> president…
>
> …hate and fear have no place in these discussions
> and I’ve been through this for a long time, weve
> used this process for 9 years when we redistricted
> the large high schools and we opened Westfield in
> 2000, nobody at Chantilly, Centreville or Westfield
> talked about throwing anybody under the bus. When
> we had town meetings, where we asked people to
> participate, cooperatively in trying to find
> solutions that addressed overcrowding at Chantilly,
> Westfield and Centreville and fill up space at
> Westfield, we had people actively engaged in the
> process of “where does it make sense to draw the
> lines?” We didn’t have 2000 people come to a
> meeting and say “I’m not playing” and the rationale
> for that was that the analogy of throwing somebody
> under a bus was that sending your child to South
> Lakes High School was equivalent to getting run over
> by a bus. Because South Lakes, and I agree with
> Mrs. Hoane, there is not a lot we agree on tonight,
> but I agree with her on this, this is an excellent
> school, I attended the South Lakes graduation last
> year and we had in a class of 342 students, 26
> honors grads, those are students who earned a gpa of
> 4.0 or higher. 26/342, now in Westfield, there were
> 675 graduates and there were 30 honors graduates,
> 45% of the students in the South Lakes graduating
> class who applied last year at the University of
> Virginia got in. That’s far higher than the average
> % in any Fairfax County high school and I would
> submit, even higher than Thomas Jefferson. Don’t
> tell me your child can’t get a good education at
> South Lakes High School, don’t tell me your child
> isn’t safe at South Lakes High School. It isn’t
> true. It is not true….
>
> (STORY ABOUT BORROWING A PLOW)
>
> …if people don’t want to send their children to
> South Lakes High School, it doesn’t really matter
> what reason they give, either the study was flawed
> or it should have included Langley, by the way,
> there are 42 students at the Middle school level
> that live in a Reston zip code, not necessarily in
> the Reston land grant who attended Cooper Middle
> school with 900 of their closest friends and just as
> people don’t want to send 22% of Floris to South
> Lakes, you imaging being the parent of the 2% of
> students who live in Reston and go to Cooper and
> now you’re going to a different high school from
> everybody else that you grew up with, so every
> argument that has been made would be made by
> somebody else. So I consider the boundary process
> almost like a bus, because sometimes it works really
> well, we did a boundary change tonight without any
> discussion whatsoever, and by the way, we used the
> exact same process that we used for this one
>
> Now I would say that that at that point that bus was
> probably 15 miles to the gallon on diesel, here is
> the problem when people put sand in the gas tank and
> what we have here is people outing sand in the gas
> tank. And then complaining that the bus doesn’t
> run.
>
> Now, we can design any process on the face of the
> earth but if the underlying issue that there is a
> hatred or misapprehension or misunderstanding of
> what goes on at a particular school, it really
> really doesn’t matter. And I would submit that a
> lot of it because of this…
>
> If you just look at the statistics that Oakton 1 out
> of every 20 students doesn’t speak English; At
> Madison 1 out of every 19 doesn’t speak English, at
> Westfield it is 1 out of every 17; Chantilly it is 1
> out of every 15 and at South Lakes it is 1 out of
> every 7.
>
> At Madison, 1 out of every 19 students lives in
> poverty, at Oakton, 1 out of every 12; at South
> Lakes, it is 1 out of every 3.
>
> Those students are not getting the same access to an
> education, and I would submit that whether a student
> speaks English or lives in poverty, doesn’t make
> them any less worthy of having all sorts of students
> attend their high school so that all students can
> have access to an equal range of courses and an
> equal education; everything else is an excuse.
> There is not exodus from SLHS, there is no problem
> that needs to be fixed, the problem that needs to be
> fixed are people spreading rumors about things that
> aren’t true and I have heard for years and years and
> years, how the school has a negative reputation,
> well how do you turn a negative reputation around,
> you invite people to come to the school and see what
> goes on in the school instead of whispering at the
> cash register and whispering at the pool, and that’s
> what’s gone on, and it’s gone on for far too long.
>
> I am going to close with one thing…(interruption
> from audience), I am going to close with one thing,
> I am going to wrap up. I was inspired by reading a
> George Will column in the Washington Post…..BLAH
> BLAH BLAH
>
> …we are here to represent the whole interest, not
> the people who send the most emails, not the people
> who talk the loudest, not the people with the
> biggest bank accounts, not the people who hire the
> lawyers./..we are here and I am going to close with
> a quote from Mary Wright Edelman, who said it’s
> about the children, it’s about the children that we
> serve, it is not about homeowners, its not about tax
> payers, its not about our schools, our choice, its
> about making sure that all the children we serve
> have access to the same opportunities that we would
> expect for our own children, and that is why I made
> this motion.
>
>






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get over it, the redistricting has been decided and old news.

"Those students are not getting the same access to an
> education, and I would submit that whether a student
> speaks English or lives in poverty, doesn’t make
> them any less worthy of having all sorts of students
> attend their high school so that all students can
> have access to an equal range of courses and an
> equal education; everything else is an excuse."

"its
> about making sure that all the children we serve
> have access to the same opportunities that we would
> expect for our own children, and that is why I made
> this motion. "

This is what I don't understand..if SL is a fine school which I can see that.. with an attractive curriculum, then why did Stu say that these students at SL aren't getting equal access to an education? WHAT SPECIFICALLY EQUAL ACCESS was he talking about? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but this question has been permeated throughout this thread and we still do not have answers for it.

A tactic to get more money and services for SL. Very smart move.

Chantilly Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get over it, the redistricting has been decided
> and old news.


Apparently your family was not affected!

underclass? Wrote:
> five of the six IB schools are located in high FRL
> areas. SBMs are deliberately creating a underclass
> of these areas by denying them AP. Are there not
> any laws that prohibit SB to openly discriminate
> like this?
-----------
There are eight IB schools in FCPS, marked "*" in the below list. The schools are in order of percent of students eligible for Free and Reduced price Meals (FRM).

Of the ten schools with the highest percentages of FRM, seven are IB schools. Of the remaining fifteen high schools with less than 17%F RM, only one, Robinson, has IB.
* Mount Vernon 50.4%
* Stuart 46.8%
Falls Church 42.1%
* Annandale 37.6%
Hayfield 32.1%
West Potomac 29.0%
* Lee 27.8%
* South Lakes 26.9%
* Edison 26.0%
* Marshall 17.1%

Herndon 16.6%
South County 16.2%
Fairfax 14.2%
Centreville 13.2%
Chantilly 10.6%
Westfield 10.4%
Lake Braddock 10.3%
* Robinson 9.2%
West Springfield 8.1%
Oakton 7.8%
McLean 5.7%
Woodson 5.4%
Madison 5.3%
Jefferson 1.4%
Langley 1.1%

So Langley is the best school in FFX?

You are correct, I made mistake in counting. Your analysis clearly shows that IB is being reserved for high poverty areas i.e. higher % FRL. Only the rich are provided AP, poorer areas have to settle for IB. How can SB get away with this ?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> underclass? Wrote:
> > five of the six IB schools are located in high
> FRL
> > areas. SBMs are deliberately creating a
> underclass
> > of these areas by denying them AP. Are there
> not
> > any laws that prohibit SB to openly
> discriminate
> > like this?
> -----------
> There are eight IB schools in FCPS, marked "*" in
> the below list. The schools are in order of
> percent of students eligible for Free and Reduced
> price Meals (FRM).
>
> Of the ten schools with the highest percentages of
> FRM, seven are IB schools. Of the remaining
> fifteen high schools with less than 17%F RM, only
> one, Robinson, has IB.
> * Mount Vernon 50.4%
> * Stuart 46.8%
> Falls Church 42.1%
> * Annandale 37.6%
> Hayfield 32.1%
> West Potomac 29.0%
> * Lee 27.8%
> * South Lakes 26.9%
> * Edison 26.0%
> * Marshall 17.1%
>
> Herndon 16.6%
> South County 16.2%
> Fairfax 14.2%
> Centreville 13.2%
> Chantilly 10.6%
> Westfield 10.4%
> Lake Braddock 10.3%
> * Robinson 9.2%
> West Springfield 8.1%
> Oakton 7.8%
> McLean 5.7%
> Woodson 5.4%
> Madison 5.3%
> Jefferson 1.4%
> Langley 1.1%

Langley is the best not because of low FRL, but it has AP and Langley students excel in AP courses and exam and show good scores in SAT and other tests year after year.

BMW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Langley is the best school in FFX?

Anyone know the status of lawsuit? It is appearing that Stu Gibson is getting away for free. He broke privacy laws, carried out person vendetta against districts who voted against him, and is now getting away scott free. The long arm of the law is not long enough to reach him.

This thread is dying down. Where is everyone? Is this how this will end..

Is there anybody out there Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is dying down. Where is everyone? Is
> this how this will end..


It should be. Beating a dead "whatever" (horse), Time to move on.

In the international rankings: Are we comparing kids at the French lycees and the German Gymnasiums to our general enrollment high schools? The achievement of our AP students seems to indicate this is the case.

In the AP vs. IB rankings: Did your studies compare IB diploma achievers to anyone who took one or more AP courses? Seems that was the case. You need to compare apples to apples.

Neen: Your comment where you assumed you knew what IB diploma holders majored in ... simply arrogant.

BMW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Langley is the best school in FFX?


No, just the richest. (Which is precisely why they were not included in the redistricting)

For 6 months the entire community was united against the SB common enemy headed by evil Gibson. West county study will be remembered in infamy for a long time to come. All came together - whether they had high school age children or not; whites, asians and african americans; young and old. We tried hard and went down fighting together. Only regret is that we could not get this extent of organization in Nov 07 elections. If we had then the outcome would have been different.

Signing off this thread and moving on. One thing is sure - next house to be within half a mile of Oakton high :) Can only hope in 2011 elections Hunter Mill voters dont forget this history lesson and give back a fitting answer to Gibson.

Bye.

BMW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Langley is the best school in FFX?


Yes.

AP vs IB Wrote:

> Quit freaking people at who are already dealing
> with the redistricting by implying their kids
> won't get into college if they aren't in the full
> diploma program.
>
So, perhaps they won't earn as much college credit
> as they could have at an AP school, but once they
> are in college they will have, according to the
> Tech study at least, a higher GPA and fare better
> at the time of applying to grad school.

I never said that IB kids won't get into college. Every high school graduate in America can get into a college.

You are correct IB students won't earn as much credit as AP students earn. The Tech study showed that students who persist, and work hard enough in high school, to complete the IB diploma in high school and do well in college and when applying to graduate school. Again, that's the top 5% of students who actually accomplish the IB diploma. It's hardly surprising that the top 5% of students in high school would also do well in college, just as the top 1% at TJ also have higher averages in college, and an easier time getting into graduate school. duh.

What about the other 95% of our students? That was my point, and it still is. Is FCPS only concerned about this top 5%? Are you?

lifeAfterRD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For 6 months the entire community was united
> against the SB common enemy headed by evil Gibson.
> West county study will be remembered in infamy for
> a long time to come. All came together - whether
> they had high school age children or not; whites,
> asians and african americans; young and old. We
> tried hard and went down fighting together. Only
> regret is that we could not get this extent of
> organization in Nov 07 elections. If we had then
> the outcome would have been different.
>
> Signing off this thread and moving on. One thing
> is sure - next house to be within half a mile of
> Oakton high :) Can only hope in 2011 elections
> Hunter Mill voters dont forget this history lesson
> and give back a fitting answer to Gibson.
>
> Bye.

No one will care in 2011 because this will all be long over and forgotten. With only 20% of voters having kids in public schools, they'll vote for Stu again. He's the democrat, so he'll get their vote, even though they have no clue who he is.

I live less than a mile from Oakton, yet my house is in the Madison district. Thoreau middle school sits in Kilmer district. So you need to be VERY careful.

>>>You are correct, I made mistake in counting. Your analysis clearly shows that IB is being reserved for high poverty areas i.e. higher % FRL. Only the rich are provided AP, poorer areas have to settle for IB. How can SB get away with this?<<<

For precisely the reason you have stated, they forced IB on low income schools with parents who are less likely to raise major objections. Our school board would put IB into every high school if they thought they could get away with it, but high income parents, who are noisy and who contribute to school board elections, would not tolerate their schools being switched to IB. They have the money and the clout to protect their schools and keep them AP programs. Less affluent schools don't that kind of clout so they got stuck with IB.

Sick of This Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really think that everyone should stop this mud
> slinging back and forth. It is counter
> productive. These bad feelings are going to last
> for a very long time. I have a friend who is
> choosing the IB Program for her daughter. She
> lives in Chantilly Highlands. Because of all the
> animosity with SL and the poor handling of the
> redistricting she is pupil placing her daughter to
> Marshall! She would rather drive her daughter all
> the way to Tysons than put her in SL because of
> the bitterness that remains very heavy here in the
> Western County. In the end, we will all do what
> is right for our children, whether we move, pupil
> place the kids to continue AP, give SL a try, or
> get our children completely away from this mess
> and take them to Tysons!!!

That famous South Lakes/IB supporter, the one quoted in the papers, Caroline Hemenway (something like that), did the same thing. She pupil placed her child at Marshall, all the way from Herndon. Quite a hike. So your friend is not alone, even South Lakes supporters send their children to Marshall.

Interesting that the two biggest South Lakes supporters, most quoted in the press, neither had children at South Lakes.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
>
> > Quit freaking people at who are already dealing
> > with the redistricting by implying their kids
> > won't get into college if they aren't in the
> full
> > diploma program.
> >
> So, perhaps they won't earn as much college
> credit
> > as they could have at an AP school, but once
> they
> > are in college they will have, according to the
> > Tech study at least, a higher GPA and fare
> better
> > at the time of applying to grad school.
>
> I never said that IB kids won't get into college.
> Every high school graduate in America can get into
> a college.
>
> You are correct IB students won't earn as much
> credit as AP students earn. The Tech study showed
> that students who persist, and work hard enough in
> high school, to complete the IB diploma in high
> school and do well in college and when applying to
> graduate school. Again, that's the top 5% of
> students who actually accomplish the IB diploma.
> It's hardly surprising that the top 5% of students
> in high school would also do well in college, just
> as the top 1% at TJ also have higher averages in
> college, and an easier time getting into graduate
> school. duh.
>
> What about the other 95% of our students? That
> was my point, and it still is. Is FCPS only
> concerned about this top 5%? Are you?


Actually the Tech part of the study didn't specify that the students were IB diploma students, simply IB students compared to non-IB and AP students. And my point was addressing the other 95%. As you state getting the HS degree whether it is an AP HS or an IB school gets FCPS students into college. Even if they only take a few IB or AP courses they are getting into more select colleges. You don't need the full IB diploma to get into Tech, UVA W & M, just like you wouldn't need to take 6 or 7 AP classes to do so.

If all anyone cares about is college credit, then yes, AP will do better. If you care about getting into quality VA schools, or schools like Duke, Cornell, Wakeforest, and even Harvard et al, then either IB or AP are fine; and you don't need the full IB diploma.

My main point is you deride not only the school board (and rightly so in terms of how this process was handled) but your reply to my original posting of the studies was very derisive to IB students. The majority are in IB schools because it is their neighborhood school. The majority of families moved into their homes prior to IB being in the schools. They "discovered" the IB program as their kids got into HS (or through the MS if they have the MYP aspect).

You have clearly made your views known and have tended to blame everything on "liberal" politicians and educators. I have wanted to share that no teacher has ever taught a child to read without some phonics and phonemic awareness as part of their instruction, even in the days of whole language kids were taught how to sound out etc. A strictly phonics based approach will teach kids how to sound out everything, including nonsense words, and many of those studies you cite in Richmond where they show reading scores increasing dramatically, yes they are in 1st-3rd grade when they simply test how quickly the kids can sound out words, but when they start testing for comprehension, in 4th grade and beyond, their scores are even more dismal than the ones you cite in FCPS.

But, I hadn't wanted to veer off into that until now. You can pick and choose how to interpret the study I provided; you can continue to raise everyone's fears about IB; you can continue to blame all of education's ills on our school board and the evil liberals; I am sure my points won't stop you; but I want to share, as a person who has kids in an IB school, who knew nothing about IB until they were in MS, that it isn't the bottomless pit of inequity that you keep placing it. Even kids who are more science and math oriented as my youngest is, and he isn't doing the diploma, can do well in IB schools and go to engineering schools in college. He has friends with his strengths and interests who are at Tech without the full diploma. We have friends who didn't do the full diploma that are now in well known graduate programs for engineering and doing quite well.

Yes, IB won't get you as many credits without the diploma, but those kids, even those kids who are science and math oriented will do well in college...not just getting in, but in college and do quite will when applying to graduate school.

Those are the 95% that I was addressing. And yes, I do care, which is why I brought it up. You only care to continue the fear mongering of 100% of the people in the redistricting mess.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>You are correct, I made mistake in counting.
> Your analysis clearly shows that IB is being
> reserved for high poverty areas i.e. higher % FRL.
> Only the rich are provided AP, poorer areas have
> to settle for IB. How can SB get away with
> this?<<<
>
> For precisely the reason you have stated, they
> forced IB on low income schools with parents who
> are less likely to raise major objections. Our
> school board would put IB into every high school
> if they thought they could get away with it, but
> high income parents, who are noisy and who
> contribute to school board elections, would not
> tolerate their schools being switched to IB. They
> have the money and the clout to protect their
> schools and keep them AP programs. Less affluent
> schools don't that kind of clout so they got stuck
> with IB.

J Strauss confirmed at a recent board meeting what J Matthews wrote - FCPS stuck IB in a lot of schools to provide teacher training and jump start the school into academia. That is why so many IB schools are in high poverty areas-FCPS did a cruddy job so they brought in an outside entity to turn the school around.

How'd South Lakes get stuck in the mess? My guess is Stu Gibson is NEVER one to leave out his area on any extra funding. Top it off with the Langley boundary junk that drives the Herndon boundary and there you are. FCPS thought there would have been more South Lakes pupil placements for IB. That didn't happen - the people went to Marshall especially all the Kilmer GT center kids who would continue with friends. Carson GT is not a big IB feeder.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> Actually the Tech part of the study didn't specify
> that the students were IB diploma students, simply
> IB students ...
>
> The majority are in IB schools because it is their
> neighborhood school. The majority of families
> moved into their homes prior to IB being in the
> schools. They "discovered" the IB program as
> their kids got into HS (or through the MS if they
> have the MYP aspect). ...
>
> ... I want to share, as a person who has
> kids in an IB school, who knew nothing about IB
> until they were in MS, ...

-----------
Do you disagree that FULL IB Diploma Graduates are more sought after than are students in IB schools who are NOT Diploma Candidates?

Do you disagree that within FCPS "disadvantaged" students are more concentrated in IB high schools?

You imply you did not pay attention to IB and AP until it was too late to change. If you want change, let it begin with you. On the other hand, if South Lakes parents love IB, fine, let them be happy with it - but then they should not try to add more students from AP school areas in the hope of adding AP. It just doesn't work that way in FCPS. Even huge Robinson has only six AP courses, none of them in foreign language, science, or BC Calculus.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------
> Do you disagree that FULL IB Diploma Graduates are
> more sought after than are students in IB schools
> who are NOT Diploma Candidates?

Do you disagree that AP students who take 6 or 7 AP courses are more sought after than are students in AP schools who only take 1 or 2 AP courses, or none? Please don't make obvious statements. I am, once again, referring to the 95% of students you and Neen keep referring to.
>
> Do you disagree that within FCPS "disadvantaged"
> students are more concentrated in IB high
> schools?

No, I am not, and that isn't part of what I was addressing either.
>
> You imply you did not pay attention to IB and AP
> until it was too late to change. If you want
> change, let it begin with you. On the other hand,
> if South Lakes parents love IB, fine, let them be
> happy with it - but then they should not try to
> add more students from AP school areas in the hope
> of adding AP. It just doesn't work that way in
> FCPS. Even huge Robinson has only six AP courses,
> none of them in foreign language, science, or BC
> Calculus.

I am fine with where my sons are. I have said the redistricting was flawed. I am trying to provide helpful information for parents who have been redistricted. I have agreed that college credit is not as good for IB students. I have also said in many other posts that I find it not financially frugal to base tuition savings on college credit. Credit for AP courses is very different from college to college and major to major. Accepting an admission offer based on potential college credit given, is not financially frugal. If a student doesn't want to sit in those classes with 300 students, or wants to save on tuition for courses they don't need based on their knowledge, then they can take the college placement tests (or go to schools where their won't be 300 students in the 100 level courses). But if a family is truly concerned about finances, as I am, then scholarships and grants etc. are what one should focus on at the time of admission, not what college credit will be offered to them in August.

And yes, I know adding AP courses is going to be impossible. There is only one at Stuart. However, continuing to make IB families feel all is lost is misleading. As I said, those 95% at Stuart not in the full IB diploma program, including kids like my youngest, very bright but not interested in the diploma for a variety of reasons, are doing well at 1) getting into college with only 1 or 2 IB classes 2) doing well once in college, including top notch engineering schools an 3) getting into good graduate programs and internships etc. in science and math related fields.

I have just been reading the recent posts about the IB vs AP programs. Wouldn't it have helped if FCPS created a certain kind of program for middle school students to explore the AP vs IB programs while in middle school and that would help the students and their parents make better and informed decisions about what their students would like to enroll in (AP or IB) when they start high school? I am not referring to a MYP aspect but rather a program to help students understand the differences between AP vs IB in middle schools. Any thoughts?

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have just been reading the recent posts about
> the IB vs AP programs. Wouldn't it have helped if
> FCPS created a certain kind of program for middle
> school students to explore the AP vs IB programs
> while in middle school and that would help the
> students and their parents make better and
> informed decisions about what their students would
> like to enroll in (AP or IB) when they start high
> school? I am not referring to a MYP aspect but
> rather a program to help students understand the
> differences between AP vs IB in middle schools.
> Any thoughts?

I agree they should, and it is a shame that FCPS doesn't do as Prince William Co does. My sister's family is there and they offer students options to attend any HS in that county (including transportation), and their programs include IB, AP, Campbridge, Science and Tech and possibly more. They do discuss all of the options with their MS students.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> Do you disagree that AP students who take 6 or 7
> AP courses are more sought after than are students
> in AP schools who only take 1 or 2 AP courses, or
> none? ... I am, once again, referring to the 95% of students
> you and Neen keep referring to. ... I am trying to provide
> helpful information for parents who have been
> redistricted. I have agreed that college credit
> is not as good for IB students. ...
>
> And yes, I know adding AP courses is going to be
> impossible. There is only one at Stuart.
> However, continuing to make IB families feel all
> is lost is misleading. As I said, those 95% at
> Stuart not in the full IB diploma program,
> including kids like my youngest, very bright but
> not interested in the diploma for a variety of
> reasons ....

As for that 95% - whether they take one or ten AP courses is up to them. In contrast, students in IB schools face an all-or-nothing, yes-or-no question on many competitive college applications: "Are you an IB Diploma Candidate?"

Would you support an IB Academy (or two or three) for IB Diploma Candidates to attend, then return to their "base" schools for an elective or two, for activities, and for testing? [Look up Lamar Academy in McAllen Texas as a model.] And make ALL the base schools AP schools? The large majority of students who are NOT IB Diploma Candidates would then have equal access to a standard set of AP classes, including but not limited to AP English Comp, AP English Lit, AP US History, AP Government, AP World History, AP Calculus AB AND BC, at least two AP sciences, and at least two AP foreign languages.

Which is kind of what South Lakes has been asking for - equal access to academic offerings.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have just been reading the recent posts about
> > the IB vs AP programs. Wouldn't it have helped
> if
> > FCPS created a certain kind of program for
> middle
> > school students to explore the AP vs IB
> programs
> > while in middle school and that would help the
> > students and their parents make better and
> > informed decisions about what their students
> would
> > like to enroll in (AP or IB) when they start
> high
> > school? I am not referring to a MYP aspect but
> > rather a program to help students understand
> the
> > differences between AP vs IB in middle schools.
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> I agree they should, and it is a shame that FCPS
> doesn't do as Prince William Co does. My sister's
> family is there and they offer students options to
> attend any HS in that county (including
> transportation), and their programs include IB,
> AP, Campbridge, Science and Tech and possibly
> more. They do discuss all of the options with
> their MS students.

It's a shame then because that makes so much sense to use this kind of approach such as what PW co is doing for their students. FCPS shouldn't have had to force students moving them around going to that high school, etc..pupil placements are an option but parents have to provide transportation. It would have been helpful if only fcps would be more open minded and adopt such options so to make all these families and students feel good about their decisons for their kids' academic needs instead of being forced to high schools with different programs by means of redistricting.

Foreum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > Do you disagree that AP students who take 6 or
> 7
> > AP courses are more sought after than are
> students
> > in AP schools who only take 1 or 2 AP courses,
> or
> > none? ... I am, once again, referring to the
> 95% of students
> > you and Neen keep referring to. ... I am trying
> to provide
> > helpful information for parents who have been
> > redistricted. I have agreed that college
> credit
> > is not as good for IB students. ...
> >
> > And yes, I know adding AP courses is going to
> be
> > impossible. There is only one at Stuart.
> > However, continuing to make IB families feel
> all
> > is lost is misleading. As I said, those 95% at
> > Stuart not in the full IB diploma program,
> > including kids like my youngest, very bright
> but
> > not interested in the diploma for a variety of
> > reasons ....
>
> As for that 95% - whether they take one or ten AP
> courses is up to them. In contrast, students in IB
> schools face an all-or-nothing, yes-or-no question
> on many competitive college applications: "Are
> you an IB Diploma Candidate?"
>
> Would you support an IB Academy (or two or three)
> for IB Diploma Candidates to attend, then return
> to their "base" schools for an elective or two,
> for activities, and for testing? And make ALL the
> base schools AP schools? The large majority of
> students who are NOT IB Diploma Candidates would
> then have equal access to a standard set of AP
> classes, including but not limited to AP English
> Comp, AP English Lit, AP US History, AP
> Government, AP World History, AP Calculus AB AND
> BC, at least two AP sciences, and at least two AP
> foreign languages.
>
> Which is kind of what South Lakes has been asking
> for - equal access to academic offerings.

FR, College applications do not have a yes no response to IB diploma applicants. Just as they don't say, "did you take all the AP courses you conceivably could have."

There are differences in the two programs, I have never denied that. I have agreed that there is more choice within the AP model, and I have agreed that AP students can get more credit, on the whole. I have consistently showed as well that you are ratcheting up unfounded fears for the IB families. The 95% will be treated just as fairly as the AP students who only take one or two AP courses. I am sorry you don't seem able to accept that truth.

And if you recall, I looked up Lamar when you first mentioned it (you have mentioned it often). If you recall I had said the academies in Fairfax are not run that way. The academy is where one or two classes are taken and the majority of courses are at the base school. Whether or not FCPS would switch their academy conception to fit the Lamar way is up to FCPS. And since that is not happening anytime soon, then the families going to South Lakes who are not pupil placing back to their AP schools, need to hear the reality of what an IB school is like, not fears from you and Neen who don't have children in IB schools.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> However, continuing to make IB families feel all
> is lost is misleading. As I said, those 95% at
> Stuart not in the full IB diploma program,

Face the truth - If you are a liberal arts students IB is great for you. For Technology, science, math if you not in AP then ALL IS REALLY LOST. The differernce will be going to MIT with full aid v.s. going to VT. Now VT is not bad, but MIT would prefer AP calculus rather than IB French.

most of it is lost Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > However, continuing to make IB families feel
> all
> > is lost is misleading. As I said, those 95% at
> > Stuart not in the full IB diploma program,
>
> Face the truth - If you are a liberal arts
> students IB is great for you. For Technology,
> science, math if you not in AP then ALL IS REALLY
> LOST. The differernce will be going to MIT with
> full aid v.s. going to VT. Now VT is not bad, but
> MIT would prefer AP calculus rather than IB
> French.


I have to disagree. My youngest is the science, math, tech kind of kid and all is not lost for him. Cal Tech and MIT are in reach despite him not doing the full diploma. Any engineering school would prefer a calculus course to a French course (and yes, I realize that aspect of your post was a joke) I have actually corresponded with some math professors, who have looked at the HL Math course and AP Calculus courses, and despite what MIT grad has said here, they say the HL course covers all that the AP Calc BC course does, and more. I also posted that NRC report that MIT Grad discussed after I posted it. He looked at the appendix, but if you review the whole thing, plus some other studies that have been done on the math courses, you will see that schools do indeed appreciate and understand the HL math course.

Also, I have repeatedly said that the HL Science courses have better labs than the AP science courses, and do indeed get credit for both the lab portion and the lecture portion at selective universities where the AP equivalent will get credit for the lecture part but not the lab part. This was also addressed in the NRC report.

All is not lost for the science kid, you just have to look at the universities your kid is interested, and in the programs they are interested in, and stop getting freaked out by people who claim to understand the courses without having kids in them.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> As I said, those 95% at Stuart not in the full IB diploma program...
>
> ... some math professors, who have looked at the HL Math course ...
>
> schools do indeed appreciate and understand the HL math course. ...
>
> HL Science courses have better labs ...

If we get the "average parent" to understand what the FULL IB Diploma involves, and the difference between High Level (HL) and Standard/Subsidiary Level (SL), then our time here will not have been wasted.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> If we get the "average parent" to understand what
> the FULL IB Diploma involves, and the difference
> between High Level (HL) and Standard/Subsidiary
> Level (SL), then our time here will not have been
> wasted.


Obviously educating people is helpful, but I honestly believe some of what you and Neen have posted is erroneous. There are differences, yes, between the full program, and within individual courses. For those science kids some are worried about, if they focus on the science and math HL courses (and truly even the SL one year environmental science, I have heard is good) they will be fine. The kids who are more into the humanities, but still not into the full program will also be fine with HL or SL courses. Even kids who don't take any IB courses will be fine, just as students at AP schools who don't take any AP courses will fare well.

If you are implying that getting the "average" parent to understand the differences between the full program and SL courses to mean that the whole IB program is problematic for the 95% refrain you have been touting, then you need to re-read my posts. The other 95% fare just as well as the students in AP HS's who are not loading up on AP courses. It is truly as simple as that.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> kids who don't take any IB courses will be fine,
> just as students at AP schools who don't take any
> AP courses will fare well.

---------------
Do you truly believe this? If so, please define "fine" and "fare well."

Sure, they can live happy, productive, fulfilling lives, but I doubt competitive colleges are much interested in FCPS students who do not take ANY IB or AP courses unless the students are in a special category, such as star athletes.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carson parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > Can you cite your sources please...particularly
> > the fact the IB kids achieve a higher GPA in
> > college than non IBers and the fact the IB kids
> go
> > on to grad school at twice the rate of non
> IBers.
> > (I assume you're comparing them to AP kids,not
> > just those that took general ed level.) If you
> > have some solid research to back up your claims
> > that would be very interesting to many I think.
>
> > Thanks!
>
>
> I know there is a University of Florida study that
> states something along those lines; I am trying to
> find that. In the meantime, I came across this:
> http://www.uhigh.lsu.edu/academics/ib/ib_advantage
> .htm
>
> The quote that stands out from the above link is,
> "Two studies of IB Diploma graduates reveal that
> IB students not only do better at getting into
> college; they also do better and are more
> satisfied once accepted. In the first, 88% of IB
> Diploma holders compared with 41%of students who
> earned at least some AP credit maintained a "B"
> average or better through their first year of
> college. In the second, the average drop in grade
> point average between high school and college was
> twice as high for college preparatory students as
> for IB Diploma students, and the IB students were
> twice as likely to rate themselves "satisfied" or
> "extremely satisfied" with their college
> experience."
>
> Will google some more to see if I can find the
> actual studies.

Hmmm... I'm not sure it's appropriate to compare IB Diploma graduates with students who have taken "some" AP. What does "some" AP mean? If the study is comparing IB Diploma grads with students who took 4 or more AP exams then that might be a fair comparison. On the other hand, if the study wanted to compare those who had taken 1 or 2 IB courses with those that had taken 1-2 AP class that would be ok too. If you have more specific info that would be great.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> > kids who don't take any IB courses will be
> fine,
> > just as students at AP schools who don't take
> any
> > AP courses will fare well.
>
> ---------------
> Do you truly believe this? If so, please define
> "fine" and "fare well."
>
> Sure, they can live happy, productive, fulfilling
> lives, but I doubt competitive colleges are much
> interested in FCPS students who do not take ANY IB
> or AP courses unless the students are in a special
> category, such as star athletes.

I define it as getting into colleges. If the students desire more competitive colleges then they will take at least 1 AP or IB course.

Carson mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Hmmm... I'm not sure it's appropriate to compare
> IB Diploma graduates with students who have taken
> "some" AP. What does "some" AP mean? If the
> study is comparing IB Diploma grads with students
> who took 4 or more AP exams then that might be a
> fair comparison. On the other hand, if the study
> wanted to compare those who had taken 1 or 2 IB
> courses with those that had taken 1-2 AP class
> that would be ok too. If you have more specific
> info that would be great.


I understand what you are saying. The VA Tech study I linked doesn't say diploma students, simply IB students. I have also previously linked a lengthy report from NRC that details the math and science courses between both programs. I have tried to provide data as I find it, and have tried to share views of families I know at Stuart as well as my own sons. Since my oldest is a junior neither have applied to colleges, but I do know a number of families with students at terrific/competitive universities. A few did the full IB diploma, most did not. Schools where the kids didn't do the full IB: VA Tech, Miami of Ohio, UVA, Duke, Cornell, Oberlin. Another student at Oberlin who had done the full diploma program won a full ride to University of Pittsburgh, but chose Oberlin. Another full IB diploma student started at the University of Washington as a sophomore because of credits earned.

Students who went to Tech without the full diploma are now at Graduate schools in engineering programs.

Basically, though I don't have a study, I do know families at both AP schools and at IB schools. The kids who take 1-3 AP or 1-3 IB courses are essentially equal in terms of admission to W&M, Tech, UVA and non-state competitive universities...given same GPA and extracurric's.

The only benefit the AP students have over the IB (in that scenario of 1-3 courses) is the college credit aspect, but those IB students easily take and pass the college placement tests, if their university doesn't recognize SL IB courses without the diploma.

Students with the full IB diploma can start as sophomores at Tech, just like students with numerous AP courses at Tech. In both of those cases 38 credits may be earned dependent on scores.

AP vs IB Wrote:
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > ... please define "fine" and "fare well."
> >
> I define it as getting into colleges. If the
> students desire more competitive colleges then
> they will take at least 1 AP or IB course.

Then just about EVERY graduate can "fare well" - as can those who do not earn diplomas. For example, the admissions criteria for Norfolk State University include:
* 2.3 GPA
* A high school diploma or its equivalent.
* A minimum score of 800 (critical reading and math) on the SAT

If you have a high school diploma or the equivalent, OR you are at least 18 years of age, you are eligible for admission to Northern Virginia Community College.

However, most FCPS parents are looking for more than "Can my child get into college - any college." So yes, we DO care about advanced courses.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carson mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >> Hmmm... I'm not sure it's appropriate to
> compare
> > IB Diploma graduates with students who have
> taken
> > "some" AP. What does "some" AP mean? If the
> > study is comparing IB Diploma grads with
> students
> > who took 4 or more AP exams then that might be
> a
> > fair comparison. On the other hand, if the
> study
> > wanted to compare those who had taken 1 or 2
> IB
> > courses with those that had taken 1-2 AP class
> > that would be ok too. If you have more
> specific
> > info that would be great.
>
>
> I understand what you are saying. The VA Tech
> study I linked doesn't say diploma students,
> simply IB students. I have also previously linked
> a lengthy report from NRC that details the math
> and science courses between both programs. I have
> tried to provide data as I find it, and have tried
> to share views of families I know at Stuart as
> well as my own sons. Since my oldest is a junior
> neither have applied to colleges, but I do know a
> number of families with students at
> terrific/competitive universities. A few did the
> full IB diploma, most did not. Schools where the
> kids didn't do the full IB: VA Tech, Miami of
> Ohio, UVA, Duke, Cornell, Oberlin. Another
> student at Oberlin who had done the full diploma
> program won a full ride to University of
> Pittsburgh, but chose Oberlin. Another full IB
> diploma student started at the University of
> Washington as a sophomore because of credits
> earned.
>
> Students who went to Tech without the full diploma
> are now at Graduate schools in engineering
> programs.
>
> Basically, though I don't have a study, I do know
> families at both AP schools and at IB schools.
> The kids who take 1-3 AP or 1-3 IB courses are
> essentially equal in terms of admission to W&M,
> Tech, UVA and non-state competitive
> universities...given same GPA and extracurric's.
>
> The only benefit the AP students have over the IB
> (in that scenario of 1-3 courses) is the college
> credit aspect, but those IB students easily take
> and pass the college placement tests, if their
> university doesn't recognize SL IB courses without
> the diploma.
>
> Students with the full IB diploma can start as
> sophomores at Tech, just like students with
> numerous AP courses at Tech. In both of those
> cases 38 credits may be earned dependent on
> scores.

To make sure I understand this, Tech is one of a handful of US universities to recognize the full IB diploma thus giving the IB diploma candidate 38 credits just like an Advanced diploma candidate (AP)?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > However, most FCPS parents are looking for more
> than "Can my child get into college - any
> college." So yes, we DO care about advanced
> courses.

And, as I said, the students taking 1 or more AP or IB courses can and do get into competitive colleges. I am not referring to NOVA in those cases. You asked do I really believe kids without any advanced courses fare well, and I said yes, they get into colleges.

The kids with advanced courses get into more competitive colleges. So I care about advanced courses just as you do.

For the record, I taught at Woodson. I know students from there who got into the same schools the students I know at Stuart got into. Essentially 1, 2, or 3 AP courses equal 1, 2 or 3 IB courses. The more advanced courses one takes the more competitive the university they apply to and get into.

No advanced courses then the less competitive the college.

Please recognize that I answered what you asked. That did not mean I think FCPS parents don't care about advanced courses. I frankly resent you twisting my answer to you in that regard.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> To make sure I understand this, Tech is one of a
> handful of US universities to recognize the full
> IB diploma thus giving the IB diploma candidate 38
> credits just like an Advanced diploma candidate
> (AP)?



Yes, Tech does indeed say those students (IB diploma and AP Advanced) can earn up to 38 credits.

Here is the Tech info: http://www.registrar.vt.edu/registration/tests_for_credit.php

YOu will see the 38 credit hours reference for diploma students and you can also see that certificate students can earn up to 30 credits (but they have to be HL courses).

>>>>But if a family is truly concerned about finances, as I am, then scholarships and grants etc. are what one should focus on at the time of admission, not what college credit will be offered to them in August.<<<

Most families who are concerned about finances (wouldn't that be nearly everyone?) attempt to do both, earn college credits in high school and also apply for scholarships, grants, and lower cost loans.

>>>The only benefit the AP students have over the IB (in that scenario of 1-3 courses) is the college credit aspect, but those IB students easily take and pass the college placement tests, if their university doesn't recognize SL IB courses without the diploma.<<<

Are you saying that there is no benefit to an engineering student to have taken in high school, AP calculus BC, multi variable calculus and linear algebra? Are you maintaining that the Cornell engineering school would be just as likely to admit an engineering student who took IB math, rather than those AP+ math classes that are now offered in many (Most) of our AP high schools? There is no benefit for a computer science student to have taken AP computer science? VA Tech computer science college wouldn't look for that course in an applicant? No benefit to a Government and Politics major to have taken AP Government in high school?

Do you think it's common for the parents of a math/science/computer student to be unaware that their high school did not offer AP until the child was in middle school? Is it also common for such parents to be unaware of TJ? Are they simply unaware of what our high schools have to offer math/science/computer kids? Do you think that's the majority of parents? If so, I am shocked that parents in FCPS could be that unaware of their neighborhood schools. What a shame for all those math/science students who are not able to get into TJ and end up stuck in IB schools.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have just been reading the recent posts about
> > the IB vs AP programs. Wouldn't it have helped
> if
> > FCPS created a certain kind of program for
> middle
> > school students to explore the AP vs IB
> programs
> > while in middle school and that would help the
> > students and their parents make better and
> > informed decisions about what their students
> would
> > like to enroll in (AP or IB) when they start
> high
> > school? I am not referring to a MYP aspect but
> > rather a program to help students understand
> the
> > differences between AP vs IB in middle schools.
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> I agree they should, and it is a shame that FCPS
> doesn't do as Prince William Co does. My sister's
> family is there and they offer students options to
> attend any HS in that county (including
> transportation), and their programs include IB,
> AP, Campbridge, Science and Tech and possibly
> more. They do discuss all of the options with
> their MS students.

Montgomery county has a similar program for their many magnet schools. Too Bad our school board won't allow anything like that. But they do have programs at each middle school to try to convince parents and students to pupil place into IB schools.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > To make sure I understand this, Tech is one of
> a
> > handful of US universities to recognize the
> full
> > IB diploma thus giving the IB diploma candidate
> 38
> > credits just like an Advanced diploma candidate
> > (AP)?
>

AP students can only earn up to 38 credits? Where does it say that? I know at UVA AP students can earn well more than 38 credit hours.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2008 11:27PM by Neen.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> most of it is lost Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > AP vs IB Wrote:
> > > However, continuing to make IB families feel
> > all
> > > is lost is misleading. As I said, those 95%
> at
> > > Stuart not in the full IB diploma program,
> >
> > Face the truth - If you are a liberal arts
> > students IB is great for you. For Technology,
> > science, math if you not in AP then ALL IS
> REALLY
> > LOST. The differernce will be going to MIT with
> > full aid v.s. going to VT. Now VT is not bad,
> but
> > MIT would prefer AP calculus rather than IB
> > French.
>
>
> I have to disagree. My youngest is the science,
> math, tech kind of kid and all is not lost for
> him. Cal Tech and MIT are in reach despite him not
> doing the full diploma. Any engineering school
> would prefer a calculus course to a French course
> (and yes, I realize that aspect of your post was a
> joke) I have actually corresponded with some math
> professors, who have looked at the HL Math course
> and AP Calculus courses, and despite what MIT grad
> has said here, they say the HL course covers all
> that the AP Calc BC course does, and more. I also
> posted that NRC report that MIT Grad discussed
> after I posted it. He looked at the appendix, but
> if you review the whole thing, plus some other
> studies that have been done on the math courses,
> you will see that schools do indeed appreciate and
> understand the HL math course.
>
> Also, I have repeatedly said that the HL Science
> courses have better labs than the AP science
> courses, and do indeed get credit for both the lab
> portion and the lecture portion at selective
> universities where the AP equivalent will get
> credit for the lecture part but not the lab part.
> This was also addressed in the NRC report.
>
> All is not lost for the science kid, you just have
> to look at the universities your kid is
> interested, and in the programs they are
> interested in, and stop getting freaked out by
> people who claim to understand the courses without
> having kids in them.

Has your high school EVER sent a student to Cal Tech or MIT? How many? Have you ever known an IB graduate who went to either of those schools? I have never heard of an IB student in FCPS who went to Cal Tech or MIT. It's rather rare for a non minority student to get into those schools from any high school other than TJ, but I have heard of a few students who have graduated from Langley, McLean, and at least one from Madison, who went to MIT. I don't know of any, other than TJ grads, who have been admitted to Cal Tech. If you have a math/science kid, why isn't he at an AP school, if not at TJ?

Sorry dear, but you are in lala land if think your IB child, who was not admitted to TJ, will be admitted to Cal Tech or MIT. It won't happen. Not even if he is an affirmative action find.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2008 11:26PM by Neen.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > However, most FCPS parents are looking for
> more
> > than "Can my child get into college - any
> > college." So yes, we DO care about advanced
> > courses.
>
> And, as I said, the students taking 1 or more AP
> or IB courses can and do get into competitive
> colleges. I am not referring to NOVA in those
> cases. You asked do I really believe kids without
> any advanced courses fare well, and I said yes,
> they get into colleges.
>
> The kids with advanced courses get into more
> competitive colleges. So I care about advanced
> courses just as you do.
>
> For the record, I taught at Woodson. I know
> students from there who got into the same schools
> the students I know at Stuart got into.
> Essentially 1, 2, or 3 AP courses equal 1, 2 or 3
> IB courses. The more advanced courses one takes
> the more competitive the university they apply to
> and get into.
>
> No advanced courses then the less competitive the
> college.
>
> Please recognize that I answered what you asked.
> That did not mean I think FCPS parents don't care
> about advanced courses. I frankly resent you
> twisting my answer to you in that regard.

Please explain to me the justification for funding IB when AP is less costly. Many schools have PARENTS OF STUDENTS foot the bill for IB fees [and AP]. In those cases, others are still stuck with the bill for the extra staffers and junkets. Do you like paying higher taxes to fund IB? Is FCPS so inept it needs to pay IBO to manage higher level curriculum? Why the cost for IBMY?

I don't think it is my responsibility to pay for IB - nor should I pay for AP test fees for the vast majority of students. In the world of teenagers - an AP test is the same price as Abercrombie jeans - let them wear something else.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > most of it is lost Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > AP vs IB Wrote:
> > > > However, continuing to make IB families
> feel
> > > all
> > > > is lost is misleading. As I said, those
> 95%
> > at
> > > > Stuart not in the full IB diploma program,
> > >
> > > Face the truth - If you are a liberal arts
> > > students IB is great for you. For Technology,
> > > science, math if you not in AP then ALL IS
> > REALLY
> > > LOST. The differernce will be going to MIT
> with
> > > full aid v.s. going to VT. Now VT is not bad,
> > but
> > > MIT would prefer AP calculus rather than IB
> > > French.
> >
> >
> > I have to disagree. My youngest is the
> science,
> > math, tech kind of kid and all is not lost for
> > him. Cal Tech and MIT are in reach despite him
> not
> > doing the full diploma. Any engineering school
> > would prefer a calculus course to a French
> course
> > (and yes, I realize that aspect of your post was
> a
> > joke) I have actually corresponded with some
> math
> > professors, who have looked at the HL Math
> course
> > and AP Calculus courses, and despite what MIT
> grad
> > has said here, they say the HL course covers
> all
> > that the AP Calc BC course does, and more. I
> also
> > posted that NRC report that MIT Grad discussed
> > after I posted it. He looked at the appendix,
> but
> > if you review the whole thing, plus some other
> > studies that have been done on the math
> courses,
> > you will see that schools do indeed appreciate
> and
> > understand the HL math course.
> >
> > Also, I have repeatedly said that the HL
> Science
> > courses have better labs than the AP science
> > courses, and do indeed get credit for both the
> lab
> > portion and the lecture portion at selective
> > universities where the AP equivalent will get
> > credit for the lecture part but not the lab
> part.
> > This was also addressed in the NRC report.
> >
> > All is not lost for the science kid, you just
> have
> > to look at the universities your kid is
> > interested, and in the programs they are
> > interested in, and stop getting freaked out by
> > people who claim to understand the courses
> without
> > having kids in them.
>
> Has your high school EVER sent a student to Cal
> Tech or MIT? How many? Have you ever known an IB
> graduate who went to either of those schools? I
> have never heard of an IB student in FCPS who went
> to Cal Tech or MIT. It's rather rare for a non
> minority student to get into those schools from
> any high school other than TJ, but I have heard of
> a few students who have graduated from Langley,
> McLean, and at least one from Madison, who went to
> MIT. I don't know of any, other than TJ grads, who
> have been admitted to Cal Tech. If you have a
> math/science kid, why isn't he at an AP school, if
> not at TJ?
>
> Sorry dear, but you are in lala land if think your
> IB child, who was not admitted to TJ, will be
> admitted to Cal Tech or MIT. It won't happen.
> Not even if he is an affirmative action find.


Here we go AGAIN.

> Sorry dear, but you are in lala land if think your
> IB child, who was not admitted to TJ, will be
> admitted to Cal Tech or MIT. It won't happen.

Maybe this is true, and maybe it is not. I do not know.

And what makes you so sure. Are you an admissions officer at one of these schools? Does it say so anywhere?

What makes your AP stuff not "smell". What is it about you - that makes anything non AP garbage - at least that this is how your posts come across?

And what about this?

If you have a
> math/science kid, why isn't he at an AP school, if
> not at TJ?

Maybe not everyone wants to go to TJ or an AP school for whatever reasons. You are just unbelievable. Just like you find value in the AP program maybe others find value in the IB program or in other schools. What makes you so self-righteous?

It is fine for you to send your kid to AP or TJ or whatever schools - why can't you just admit that there are others with other needs and interests. Let others live in peace.

You are nasty Wrote:
> ... It is fine for you to send your kid to AP or TJ or
> whatever schools - why can't you just admit that
> there are others with other needs and interests.
> Let others live in peace.

How did all this start? Oh, yes: SLHS and FCPS are yanking kids out of AP schools and forcing them into an IB school.

Why don't you tell THEM to "let others live in peace"?

Neen's Side Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are nasty Wrote:
> > ... It is fine for you to send your kid to AP or
> TJ or
> > whatever schools - why can't you just admit
> that
> > there are others with other needs and interests.
>
> > Let others live in peace.
>
> How did all this start? Oh, yes: SLHS and FCPS are
> yanking kids out of AP schools and forcing them
> into an IB school.
>
> Why don't you tell THEM to "let others live in
> peace"?


This AP/IB debate at the moment has NOTHING to do with SL, or any other particular school. It is a debate about which program is appropriate for whom.

Just like all you AP proponents are advocating that IB is not for everyone, guess what - AP may not be the best choice for everyone either. Nobody gave you a monopoly on what is right for whom. You are complaining about AP kids arguably being forced into IB schools, but you are trying to argue just for the reverse, force those that may not want wish for AP for whatever reasons to go into AP schools or force AP for everyone. Can't have it both ways.

Neen's Side Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are nasty Wrote:
> > ... It is fine for you to send your kid to AP or
> TJ or
> > whatever schools - why can't you just admit
> that
> > there are others with other needs and interests.
>
> > Let others live in peace.
>
> How did all this start? Oh, yes: SLHS and FCPS are
> yanking kids out of AP schools and forcing them
> into an IB school.
>
> Why don't you tell THEM to "let others live in
> peace"?

This seems to be grounds for a petition to a circuit court for recall or some state oversight on FCPS.

In a real kick to this whole saga the school board is pushing for an ADDITION to South County PRIOR to building that middle school. I guess the high school capacity will end up similar to Westfield. So we are supposed to pay for IB, an unnecessary middle school, AND an addition at South County.

That is the second interim bricks and mortar addition - Westfield the first - built to accomodate students for another school. They want 10 million from the board of supervisors and 2 from the CIP.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/39c6389c088be51585256e56000c1bf2/50c2def4de723d81852572dc00546857/$FILE/3-10-08%20WS%20Summary.pdf

AP v. IB - your posts are persuasive and fact based. I think your posts make it clear that the AP v. IB choice is an individual one - and for a very bright student, I can see where a case can be made for IB, college credit problems and the like aside.

However, while it is tempting to jump to the conclusion that Neen paints with too broad a brush in condemning liberals as the source of Fairfax's problems, when it comes to reading instruction it is hard to argue with Neen. Fairfax, like so many large school districts, ignores the burgeoning science behind the teaching of reading, preferring instead to adopt a group think, touchy feely "balanced" pedagogy that hurts the students that need help most.

See Sol Stern's article about phonics and reading, and it specifically mentions Fairfax and Richmond.

www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_reading_first.html

In fairness, you do raise the $64,000 question, and it is one that often comes up with programs like Head Start. We seem to be able to make transitory progress with challenged minority groups in the early years, but nearing the middle school years, a decline sets in and for the most part, our significant social investments seem to bear no material returns. In other words, just as with Head Start (which is a multi-billion dollar failure), Richmond has some early gains, but something happens thereafter that dissipates those gains. I am not sure that the answer can easily be solved by the schools, as the Government can't seem to cause intact families to stay in place and fathers to stick around in children's lives. But irrespective of this problem, let's stick to the evidence - and phonics, no matter how boring or uncomfortable it makes students feel (given its discipline), needs to be taught.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>The only benefit the AP students have over the
> IB (in that scenario of 1-3 courses) is the
> college credit aspect, but those IB students
> easily take and pass the college placement tests,
> if their university doesn't recognize SL IB
> courses without the diploma.<<<
>
> Are you saying that there is no benefit to an
> engineering student to have taken in high school,
> AP calculus BC, multi variable calculus and linear
> algebra? Are you maintaining that the Cornell
> engineering school would be just as likely to
> admit an engineering student who took IB math,
> rather than those AP+ math classes that are now
> offered in many (Most) of our AP high schools?
> There is no benefit for a computer science student
> to have taken AP computer science? VA Tech
> computer science college wouldn't look for that
> course in an applicant? No benefit to a
> Government and Politics major to have taken AP
> Government in high school?
>
> Do you think it's common for the parents of a
> math/science/computer student to be unaware that
> their high school did not offer AP until the child
> was in middle school? Is it also common for such
> parents to be unaware of TJ? Are they simply
> unaware of what our high schools have to offer
> math/science/computer kids? Do you think that's
> the majority of parents? If so, I am shocked that
> parents in FCPS could be that unaware of their
> neighborhood schools. What a shame for all those
> math/science students who are not able to get into
> TJ and end up stuck in IB schools.

I am saying, for those kids who applied to TJ based on being a math/science kid, who don't get in, that IB is not the death knell you seem to believe it is. My son has friends at TJ, and did indeed apply after being in the GT center program (this was prior to the new testing system, he did the cogat and otis-lenin in 1st and 2nd grade). He did not make the second cut. He felt a lot of angst about not being in a science/tech/math focused school, but nevertheless is doing well at Stuart with their IB program. As I said on another post, they do have AP Government but no other AP courses. Students like my son are getting into Cornell, VA Tech and other schools with an engineering focus. The HL math course does cover what the AP Calculus BC covers. They are adding some computer science courses to Stuart as well.

Colleges look at a student's transcript based on what is offered at that school, not what is offered in other schools. The IB courses are fully explained in those transcripts so that they understand what was taught in the IB science, math and tech courses.

Math professors I have talked to who have looked at HL Math and the AP courses, say HL math covers what I attested to above, and it covers more actually.

"Math professors I have talked to who have looked at HL Math and the AP courses, say HL math covers what I attested to above, and it covers more actually."

Can you please explain further how the HL math (IB) covers more as compared to AP math?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP v. IB - your posts are persuasive and fact
> based. I think your posts make it clear that the
> AP v. IB choice is an individual one - and for a
> very bright student, I can see where a case can be
> made for IB, college credit problems and the like
> aside.
>
> However, while it is tempting to jump to the
> conclusion that Neen paints with too broad a brush
> in condemning liberals as the source of Fairfax's
> problems, when it comes to reading instruction it
> is hard to argue with Neen. Fairfax, like so many
> large school districts, ignores the burgeoning
> science behind the teaching of reading, preferring
> instead to adopt a group think, touchy feely
> "balanced" pedagogy that hurts the students that
> need help most.
>
> See Sol Stern's article about phonics and reading,
> and it specifically mentions Fairfax and Richmond.
>
>
> www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_reading_first.html
>
> In fairness, you do raise the $64,000 question,
> and it is one that often comes up with programs
> like Head Start. We seem to be able to make
> transitory progress with challenged minority
> groups in the early years, but nearing the middle
> school years, a decline sets in and for the most
> part, our significant social investments seem to
> bear no material returns. In other words, just as
> with Head Start (which is a multi-billion dollar
> failure), Richmond has some early gains, but
> something happens thereafter that dissipates those
> gains. I am not sure that the answer can easily
> be solved by the schools, as the Government can't
> seem to cause intact families to stay in place and
> fathers to stick around in children's lives. But
> irrespective of this problem, let's stick to the
> evidence - and phonics, no matter how boring or
> uncomfortable it makes students feel (given its
> discipline), needs to be taught.

Quantum, thanks for your post (and I have appreciated all of yours, they are well thought out and cogent) I have read quite a bit of Sol Stern's works over the years. I have researched the whole language versus phonics debate as well.

Check out the full NRP report on reading, which you can get at the public library. The summary of that report is what is used currently to say "science supports a strictly phonics based approach." however you will see that they used studies taking place in psychiatrists' offices, with small groups of LD students who had difficulties with phonics and phonemic awareness, and yes with a true focus on phonics for those students they did indeed improve their decoding skills, which led to increased fluency. The summary utilized those small studies, and extrapolated that to general education students in normal/large sized classrooms. I believe, even in the flawed summary, they say phonics past 2nd or 3rd grade provides no benefit.

Read as well Gerald Coles book, Literacy, Lies and Legislation. It is a well written book and assists with getting through the huge NRP report.

I read all educational "experts" those like Stern, and those like Bracey. Meir, Kohl and other liberal/progressive educators as well as the more conservative traditional educators like Chalke, Finn et al.

I also know that phonics is always taught, even in whole language programs. It may not be taught in the daily worksheet format without any "true" reading going on, as some advocate, but it is indeed taught.

What often isn't occuring as students get older, and what causes the progress made by head start to falter as students get older, is daily reading either at school or at home. In ES students often have 20-30 minutes of reading homework per night. Most students do this, and their parents sign off on reading logs. As they hit MS students who don't read, forge those logs, and students who do read tend to forget their logs at home, and eventually the whole process falls by the wayside, and reading homework,as and end itself, goes away.

In MS and certainly HS required novels start to appear, and students may or may not even read those texts...many going with Cliffs notes and the like.

Having worked in education, at all levels, with a focus on teaching reading and English (I do have my masters and my thesis involved adolescent literacy; increasing reading motivation and appreciation of the classics) I can attest to quite a bit both in the classroom and via research.

I fear for our students raised on SOL's who view writing as only pulling off a 5 paragraph essay with an intro, 3 supporting paragraphs and a conclusion. I also fear for those students who view reading only as required "boring" texts, or reading random, disconnected passages in order to show their reading level.

Richard Allington has written extensively on reading, especially for struggling readers. He has some great stats on how many words kids are exposed to through daily reading, and how that gap increases from Kindergarten through HS if a student never reads beyond what is required in school (if that) Scores on all standardized tests increase dramatically with each book read over the course of a year. While that may seem intuitively logical, many educators and parents don't truly realize this. When I point it out to the students, they are amazed. I don't have an internet link for my chart, but will try to hunt it down.

Further, Allington documents how many special education students, receiving assistance in reading, actually have no reading taking place within their pull out sessions; that is extremely distressing.


Many of the reading first programs Stern discusses utilize the Dibels test, which drills kids on how fast they can pronounce nonsense words. While decoding (phonics) is obviously necessary, I wouldn't call their speed on those tests reading.

Reading, in the long run, is thinking, and as students get older that is what is showing up on poor scores, their lack of ability to think as they read, to comprehend what they read.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do know phonics and whole language can work together quite well, for the majority of students.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Math professors I have talked to who have looked
> at HL Math and the AP courses, say HL math covers
> what I attested to above, and it covers more
> actually."
>
> Can you please explain further how the HL math
> (IB) covers more as compared to AP math?


I just posted another response, and didn't see yours until now. I have to run, but will hunt down some email responses I had from math professors. Will try to post this evening.

South Lakes Class of 2007 sent a student to MIT to study engineering. It does happen, despite what some might say.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Math professors I have talked to who have looked
> at HL Math and the AP courses, say HL math covers
> what I attested to above, and it covers more
> actually."
>
> Can you please explain further how the HL math
> (IB) covers more as compared to AP math?


Had a bit more time than I thought so I will provide some links here: (I may have deleted some emails sent when my youngest was in MS to math departments, he is now a sophomore)

Here is an interesting site: http://usc-waves.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=372&Itemid=180

And these links address the scores one needs to pass AP tests, achieving 70% is passing and while that may indeed be laudable given the number of questions, I do wonder if it is college level material, in the sense that many students end up deciding to "retake calculus after AP calculus BC in hs).
http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/CalcNet/Intro/Calc_Intro.html

see also table 1- 2 of 7 http://www.skylit.com/calculus/Ch1-AboutExam.pdf

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Sorry dear, but you are in lala land if think your
> IB child, who was not admitted to TJ, will be
> admitted to Cal Tech or MIT. It won't happen.
> Not even if he is an affirmative action find.

You have heard of summer programs like CTY, haven't you? There are other routes aside from TJ and AP courses to "prove" ones interest and ability in the field.

I recognize your son made the second cut and attends/attended TJ, I know many students at TJ. I know one young man who actually reapplied to TJ and got in for his sophomore year.

We all do what is best for our kids. Perhaps my son and I are in lala land, but I know what he has done, I know his IQ, I know his PSAT scores, I know what programs and competitions he has participated in, and will participate in, that support and document his strengths, abilities and interests. Clearly Cal Tech and MIT are not solely full of TJ students.

You seem to know everything, including IB, when you have had no direct exposure to it. You even seem to claim to know my son's chances of getting into selective universities. I offered to have my son pupil placed at Woodson, where I taught, when he found out he didn't make the second cut at TJ; he declined because #1 he had other friends since 3rd grade GT center days, that also didn't make the cut (and these kids are those who had at least 140 IQ's based on previous GT center qualifications that were in place when they were in 2nd grade)and are kids who did well in Science Olympiad, Math Counts and Odyssey of the Mind competitions throughout their ES and MS years, and wanted to continue in school with them at Stuart (though many went to Annandale, and Falls Church in addition to TJ).

I had also corresponded with Stuart IB people, and various college/university math departments in his 8th grade year.

Everything is a crapshoot when applying to selective universities; that is a given these days. He and I know that getting into to either of those universities is not a sure thing, but to imply that they only accept TJ students is a fallacy.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Math professors I have talked to who have
> looked
> > at HL Math and the AP courses, say HL math
> covers
> > what I attested to above, and it covers more
> > actually."
> >
> > Can you please explain further how the HL math
> > (IB) covers more as compared to AP math?
>
>
> Had a bit more time than I thought so I will
> provide some links here: (I may have deleted some
> emails sent when my youngest was in MS to math
> departments, he is now a sophomore)
>
> Here is an interesting site:
> http://usc-waves.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_c
> ontent&task=view&id=372&Itemid=180
>
> And these links address the scores one needs to
> pass AP tests, achieving 70% is passing and while
> that may indeed be laudable given the number of
> questions, I do wonder if it is college level
> material, in the sense that many students end up
> deciding to "retake calculus after AP calculus BC
> in hs).
> http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/CalcNet/In
> tro/Calc_Intro.html
>
> see also table 1- 2 of 7
> http://www.skylit.com/calculus/Ch1-AboutExam.pdf


Look at the section under scaling for the first AP related link. 70% passing equals a 5 on the AP exam, and 50% warrants a 3. I included that simply to say that getting college credit based on 50% may not be the most rational choice a student, who needs college calculus prior to another college math course, might want to do.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> see also table 1- 2 of 7
> http://www.skylit.com/calculus/Ch1-AboutExam.pdf


Should be see also table 1-2 on page 7.

In the latest Board Docs...

74. Governance
74.02 Follow-Up from the March 7 and 8, 2008, School Board Retreat
Board agrees to pursue discussions and negotiations with BOS to consider
adding a wing to SCSS to alleviate overcrowding as soon as possible; Board
understands this does not take the concept of Middle School off the table;
BOS would provide $10M over 2 years from their sources of funds, Board
would provide $2M from our CIP; Board may consider a motion in new
business on March 27 for action on April 10; Staff should report on progress
to Board during Forum on March 13.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Sorry dear, but you are in lala land if think your
> IB child, who was not admitted to TJ, will be
> admitted to Cal Tech or MIT. It won't happen.
> Not even if he is an affirmative action find.


Oozes condescension, and is wrong. Double-winner.

Neen exposes herself with every post, and still so-called 'thinking' people like Quantum defend her. At some point one has to cut her off, even though she sometimes makes sense.

I have lost all respect for her. I am embarrassed for her, too.

I honestly don't understand this continued debate over IB vs. AP. If you are being redistricted to SL you will be able to go to an AP school if you wish. The schools with IB (Lee included) seem quite content with what they have. While neither of my 2 HS students pursued the full IB diploma, due to SGA, sports and other obligations, their exposure to IB taught them to write, write, write and both have very good critical thinking skills.

I wish we could focus on other more presssing topics and just accept that both IB and AP will co-exist.

I am sure if enough parents within a school didn't want their respective program, they go get the SB to act. I believe Woodson HS changed programs???

I noticed Bethesda Chevy Chase HS in MOCO is an IB school. It is a high performing school and the parents there seem quite happy with the program as well.

Our kids need more global exposure anyways-the world as we know it is changing.

Noah - respond directly as to where I am wrong, rather than with derivative gossip. I wouldn't expect anything less with someone like you with stellar academic credentials or achievements.

And as far as admission to MIT or CalTech goes, who the heck knows what it takes to get into that school? It is a complete lottery. So in that sense I don't agree with Neen's comments, although I would mention that at TJ, even the best of the best most often do not get admitted. That may say as much about the imbalances at TJ as anything else, though.

I would also keep in mind that admission to CalTech and MIT is the last thing the public schools should worry about. If students can make the grade at these schools, they are going to cut it under virtually any high school system. Even many of those that have attended USNWR top 10 schools - like Noah, for certain - won't cut it a place like MIT or CalTech because the competitiveness at these places in core courses like physics is absurd. Those of us (like Noah) bright enough to digest Feynmann's Cal Tech's physics lectures - famous for their clarity and models of science writing - ought not to be fooled - that kind of stuff is mere child's play for MIT and CalTech folks.

While often abrasive, I often find Neen's comments spot on - and how much she pisses people off seems to authenicate that fact. I mentioned that I had a relative who ran for the school board - a smaller district in a middle to upper middle class suburb - who ran on a platform similar in tenor to Neen's - and oh how he irritated the status quo - initially gaining only a 1 year term opened in an emergency because of illness. At the end of his 8 year run, though - by which time he was the president of the board - the school had vaulted to one of the best in the state by virtually every measure. Ironically (or maybe not so), the teachers in this system were the highest paid in the state - and were treated as professionals - but with of course no teachers union so it was easy to filter out poor performers. Of course, this approach cost more, but people will pay for value. And no educational fads either - lots of traditional courses of study and discipline. And forget this stuff about enough students for this course or that - if there was, for example, a legitmate request for a higher level math or language or whatever class, they simply looked to a very good local university, and paid someone to teach the class, no matter how few students - and of course, with no union to complain. These kinds of things work - you know - that insistence on excellence thing. I see little evidence of it in the FCPS.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >> Sorry dear, but you are in lala land if think
> your
> > IB child, who was not admitted to TJ, will be
> > admitted to Cal Tech or MIT. It won't happen.
> > Not even if he is an affirmative action find.
>
> You have heard of summer programs like CTY,
> haven't you? There are other routes aside from TJ
> and AP courses to "prove" ones interest and
> ability in the field.
>
> I recognize your son made the second cut and
> attends/attended TJ, I know many students at TJ.
> I know one young man who actually reapplied to TJ
> and got in for his sophomore year.
>
> We all do what is best for our kids. Perhaps my
> son and I are in lala land, but I know what he has
> done, I know his IQ, I know his PSAT scores, I
> know what programs and competitions he has
> participated in, and will participate in, that
> support and document his strengths, abilities and
> interests. Clearly Cal Tech and MIT are not
> solely full of TJ students.
>
> You seem to know everything, including IB, when
> you have had no direct exposure to it. You even
> seem to claim to know my son's chances of getting
> into selective universities. I offered to have my
> son pupil placed at Woodson, where I taught, when
> he found out he didn't make the second cut at TJ;
> he declined because #1 he had other friends since
> 3rd grade GT center days, that also didn't make
> the cut (and these kids are those who had at least
> 140 IQ's based on previous GT center
> qualifications that were in place when they were
> in 2nd grade)and are kids who did well in Science
> Olympiad, Math Counts and Odyssey of the Mind
> competitions throughout their ES and MS years, and
> wanted to continue in school with them at Stuart
> (though many went to Annandale, and Falls Church
> in addition to TJ).
>
> I had also corresponded with Stuart IB people, and
> various college/university math departments in his
> 8th grade year.
>
> Everything is a crapshoot when applying to
> selective universities; that is a given these
> days. He and I know that getting into to either
> of those universities is not a sure thing, but to
> imply that they only accept TJ students is a
> fallacy.

Fallacy =yes. Cost of IB > Cost AP. What is the point? The funding differential is absurd and we are idiots for paying the IBO. TJ admissions? Unfathomable.

In a truly idiotic move the school board now plans to exceed it's "target" and build onto South County until it builds the middle school. 10 million plus 2 million is 12. They hatched that scheme at their retreat and does anyone know who is for it besides those I assume to be ringleaders Storck and Bradsher?

There is no process. There are magisterial district budget meetings and this issue needs to be addressed - that's also a good time to bring up IB.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Noah - respond directly as to where I am wrong,
> rather than with derivative gossip. I wouldn't
> expect anything less with someone like you with
> stellar academic credentials or achievements.
>
> And as far as admission to MIT or CalTech goes,
> who the heck knows what it takes to get into that
> school? It is a complete lottery. So in that
> sense I don't agree with Neen's comments, although
> I would mention that at TJ, even the best of the
> best most often do not get admitted. That may say
> as much about the imbalances at TJ as anything
> else, though.
>
> I would also keep in mind that admission to
> CalTech and MIT is the last thing the public
> schools should worry about. If students can make
> the grade at these schools, they are going to cut
> it under virtually any high school system. Even
> many of those that have attended USNWR top 10
> schools - like Noah, for certain - won't cut it a
> place like MIT or CalTech because the
> competitiveness at these places in core courses
> like physics is absurd. Those of us (like Noah)
> bright enough to digest Feynmann's Cal Tech's
> physics lectures - famous for their clarity and
> models of science writing - ought not to be fooled
> - that kind of stuff is mere child's play for MIT
> and CalTech folks.
>
> While often abrasive, I often find Neen's comments
> spot on - and how much she pisses people off seems
> to authenicate that fact. I mentioned that I had
> a relative who ran for the school board - a
> smaller district in a middle to upper middle class
> suburb - who ran on a platform similar in tenor to
> Neen's - and oh how he irritated the status quo -
> initially gaining only a 1 year term opened in an
> emergency because of illness. At the end of his 8
> year run, though - by which time he was the
> president of the board - the school had vaulted to
> one of the best in the state by virtually every
> measure. Ironically (or maybe not so), the
> teachers in this system were the highest paid in
> the state - and were treated as professionals -
> but with of course no teachers union so it was
> easy to filter out poor performers. Of course,
> this approach cost more, but people will pay for
> value. And no educational fads either - lots of
> traditional courses of study and discipline. And
> forget this stuff about enough students for this
> course or that - if there was, for example, a
> legitmate request for a higher level math or
> language or whatever class, they simply looked to
> a very good local university, and paid someone to
> teach the class, no matter how few students - and
> of course, with no union to complain. These
> kinds of things work - you know - that insistence
> on excellence thing. I see little evidence of it
> in the FCPS.



I for one am fine with Neen's commentary even though I do not agree with some/much of it. However, for someone who appears to be intelligent, she surely does not need to be rude and nasty and put others down just because they have a different point of view.

She sghould let her intellect speak for itself and come out ahead because it makes sense not because "she says so". That's what pisses me off.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs IB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >> Sorry dear, but you are in lala land if
> think
> > your
> > > IB child, who was not admitted to TJ, will be
> > > admitted to Cal Tech or MIT. It won't happen.
>
> > > Not even if he is an affirmative action find.
> >
> > You have heard of summer programs like CTY,
> > haven't you? There are other routes aside from
> TJ
> > and AP courses to "prove" ones interest and
> > ability in the field.
> >
> > I recognize your son made the second cut and
> > attends/attended TJ, I know many students at TJ.
>
> > I know one young man who actually reapplied to
> TJ
> > and got in for his sophomore year.
> >
> > We all do what is best for our kids. Perhaps my
> > son and I are in lala land, but I know what he
> has
> > done, I know his IQ, I know his PSAT scores, I
> > know what programs and competitions he has
> > participated in, and will participate in, that
> > support and document his strengths, abilities
> and
> > interests. Clearly Cal Tech and MIT are not
> > solely full of TJ students.
> >
> > You seem to know everything, including IB, when
> > you have had no direct exposure to it. You
> even
> > seem to claim to know my son's chances of
> getting
> > into selective universities. I offered to have
> my
> > son pupil placed at Woodson, where I taught,
> when
> > he found out he didn't make the second cut at
> TJ;
> > he declined because #1 he had other friends
> since
> > 3rd grade GT center days, that also didn't make
> > the cut (and these kids are those who had at
> least
> > 140 IQ's based on previous GT center
> > qualifications that were in place when they
> were
> > in 2nd grade)and are kids who did well in
> Science
> > Olympiad, Math Counts and Odyssey of the Mind
> > competitions throughout their ES and MS years,
> and
> > wanted to continue in school with them at
> Stuart
> > (though many went to Annandale, and Falls
> Church
> > in addition to TJ).
> >
> > I had also corresponded with Stuart IB people,
> and
> > various college/university math departments in
> his
> > 8th grade year.
> >
> > Everything is a crapshoot when applying to
> > selective universities; that is a given these
> > days. He and I know that getting into to
> either
> > of those universities is not a sure thing, but
> to
> > imply that they only accept TJ students is a
> > fallacy.
>
> Fallacy =yes. Cost of IB > Cost AP. What is the
> point? The funding differential is absurd and we
> are idiots for paying the IBO. TJ admissions?
> Unfathomable.
>
> In a truly idiotic move the school board now plans
> to exceed it's "target" and build onto South
> County until it builds the middle school. 10
> million plus 2 million is 12. They hatched that
> scheme at their retreat and does anyone know who
> is for it besides those I assume to be ringleaders
> Storck and Bradsher?
>
> There is no process. There are magisterial
> district budget meetings and this issue needs to
> be addressed - that's also a good time to bring
> up IB.


The SB continues to baffle me--first they say they plan to do a boundary study on SCSS and LBSS yet they are planning to do an addition to SCSS and then plan to build a middle school in that area? Sounds like they are not going to redistrict after all? Where was the SB retreat held at? Does anybody know?

Quantum, note that I said that Neen sometimes makes sense, but she ruins her arguments by taking gratuitous slaps at anyone or anything she doesn't agree with. That is where she loses me and others. If she can't compete in the marketplace of ideas without insulting others, she should gracefully bow out. I do wonder how she came to be so contemptuous of the humanities - she herself is not a math/science type - maybe some self-loathing involved?

Freshman Applicants
Caltech enrolls 215 outstanding freshmen each fall term. Students who have not yet earned a high school diploma (including students enrolled in high school/college dual enrollment programs) or who have not enrolled in college courses for credit after graduating from high school will be considered as freshman candidates.

Application Forms:
Caltech uses the Common Application and our own Caltech Supplemental Application. Application Forms

Academic Preparation:

4 years of math (including calculus)
1 year of physics and 1 year of chemistry
3 years of English (4 years recommended)

1 year of U.S. history/government (waived for international students)
Testing Requirements:

SAT: Critical Reading, Math, and Writing OR

ACT: (with or without the optional writing section) AND


SAT Subject Tests: Mathematics Level 2 and one of the following Subject Tests: Biology (Ecological), Biology (Molecular), Chemistry, or Physics

If your native language is not English, and you have not studied for at least two years in an English-speaking country, we encourage (but don't require) you to take the TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language). Both paper- and computer-based TOEFL are acceptable.

Official test scores should be sent by the testing agency. Please do not rush scores.

Admission Deadlines:
For a complete list of admission deadlines please see
Admission Deadlines.

Credit for Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate or College Courses:

Caltech does not grant credit for AP, IB, or college courses taken prior to enrollment. Each student will take a math and physics placement exam (and chemistry if pursuing a chemistry option), prior to enrolling. Based on the results of these exams, a student may place out of courses and be granted credit for those courses.

In some cases, Caltech faculty will grant permission to take a higher level course in other disciplines based on an evaluation of previous preparation in that discipline. These decisions are made on an individual basis after a student enrolls at Caltech.

IB vs AP debate is not going to end. To decide as parents we have to look at end results - all top performing schools in ffx cty have AP and most bottom performing ones are IB. Maybe a coincidence - but good enough data for me to choose AP, so filling up the pupil placement forms

seems that being in an IB area may give some flexibility when opting for AP program. How much flexibility if afforded? We live Robinson area and are about equidistant from Woodson and Lake Braddock.

The things no one has brought up is that Fox Mill is around the same age as Reston, but yet has many younger kids, that should be a good question for the SB? Also this issue is not making any headlines in any of the local papers or the post. So I wonder what is actually happening with things such as pupil placement, and the law suite. Can I get some accurate info about those who are trying to pupil place ? some things written on the board very much contradict what the ffx public schools has said would be allowed, so I am wondering why these parents in these stories havent gone to the local and national media or at least written letters to editors of local news papers.

Based on space availability, Robinson and LB swap with eachother for AP/IB pupilplacement.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> This seems to be grounds for a petition to a
> circuit court for recall or some state oversight
> on FCPS.
>
> In a real kick to this whole saga the school board
> is pushing for an ADDITION to South County PRIOR
> to building that middle school. I guess the high
> school capacity will end up similar to Westfield.
> So we are supposed to pay for IB, an unnecessary
> middle school, AND an addition at South County.
>
> That is the second interim bricks and mortar
> addition - Westfield the first - built to
> accomodate students for another school. They want
> 10 million from the board of supervisors and 2
> from the CIP.
>
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/39
> c6389c088be51585256e56000c1bf2/50c2def4de723d81852
> 572dc00546857/$FILE/3-10-08%20WS%20Summary.pdf

Amazing! How nice to live in a county where there is a bottomless pit of money for whatever that nasty Liz Bradsher wants. With over 2,000 empty seats in high schools surrounding South County, they're getting an addition? Meanwhile in the western part of the county, kids are forced to go to South Lakes, from schools that aren't even over crowded. I guess some people count, and some don't. Sigh.............

mr e Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The things no one has brought up is that Fox Mill
> is around the same age as Reston, but yet has many
> younger kids, that should be a good question for
> the SB? Also this issue is not making any
> headlines in any of the local papers or the post.
> So I wonder what is actually happening with things
> such as pupil placement, and the law suite. Can I
> get some accurate info about those who are trying
> to pupil place ? some things written on the board
> very much contradict what the ffx public schools
> has said would be allowed, so I am wondering why
> these parents in these stories havent gone to the
> local and national media or at least written
> letters to editors of local news papers.

Written letters about what? They've applied for pupil placement and waiting for their letters to be approved. The lawsuit has not yet begun.

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I am saying, for those kids who applied to TJ
> based on being a math/science kid, who don't get
> in, that IB is not the death knell you seem to
> believe it is. My son has friends at TJ, and did
> indeed apply after being in the GT center program
> (this was prior to the new testing system, he did
> the cogat and otis-lenin in 1st and 2nd grade). He
> did not make the second cut. He felt a lot of
> angst about not being in a science/tech/math
> focused school, but nevertheless is doing well at
> Stuart with their IB program. As I said on another
> post, they do have AP Government but no other AP
> courses. Students like my son are getting into
> Cornell, VA Tech and other schools with an
> engineering focus. The HL math course does cover
> what the AP Calculus BC covers. They are adding
> some computer science courses to Stuart as well.
>
> Colleges look at a student's transcript based on
> what is offered at that school, not what is
> offered in other schools. The IB courses are
> fully explained in those transcripts so that they
> understand what was taught in the IB science, math
> and tech courses.
>
> Math professors I have talked to who have looked
> at HL Math and the AP courses, say HL math covers
> what I attested to above, and it covers more
> actually.

Have you considered pupil placing your son in one of the AP schools that offers mult var and linnear Algebra after AP Calculus BC? AP physics is also good prep for engineering. I feat that without those courses your son will not be competitive with the other engineering students, even if he is admitted. Engineering is not an easy major, those students need all the background prep that they can get. Since IB is voluntary program in the rest of the state and the rest of the country, the students who choose it are not students who are planning an engineering career. Since FCPS does force students to go to IB schools, I don't doubt that some of those students are admitted to Virginia engineering schools because the admission officers will realize that they had no choice in their course offerings. But that does mean that they will be as well prepared as those who were in AP schools with the courses that I mentioned. Seriously, if you don't want to pupil place your son into an AP school, perhaps he could take those math courses during his junior and senior years, if he is still considering engineering by that time. He needs that math background to do well in engineering.

>>>I fear for our students raised on SOL's who view writing as only pulling off a 5 paragraph essay with an intro, 3 supporting paragraphs and a conclusion. I also fear for those students who view reading only as required "boring" texts, or reading random, disconnected passages in order to show their reading level.<<<<

Many of us would be THRILLED if all of our high school graduates could do that, and even more thrilled if they could all read by the end of elementary school.

BTW, your son did not get into a GT program with only the Cogat and Otis Lennon. Unless he's at least 21 years old, he was admitted under one of the newer, more subjective measures that includes their totally subjective GT behavior ratings scales.

My children had no language and NO phonics. There were NO phonics books and no phonics instruction. That's changed, it had to when only gifted students were learning to read.

Noah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum, note that I said that Neen sometimes
> makes sense, but she ruins her arguments by taking
> gratuitous slaps at anyone or anything she doesn't
> agree with. That is where she loses me and others.
> If she can't compete in the marketplace of ideas
> without insulting others, she should gracefully
> bow out. I do wonder how she came to be so
> contemptuous of the humanities - she herself is
> not a math/science type - maybe some self-loathing
> involved?

Hahaha.........nope. No self loathing. I just want every kid in FCPS to have the courses that they want and need. There are many excellent jobs available in Humanities, I'm sure. Soap Opera's hire lots of actresses, poets can sell books, and philosophy majors can become barristas or drive cabs. French majors can go to France and speak French! So many opportunities! And don't forget, humanities majors can always go to law school.

mr e Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The things no one has brought up is that Fox Mill
> is around the same age as Reston, but yet has many
> younger kids, that should be a good question for
> the SB? Also this issue is not making any
> headlines in any of the local papers or the post.
> So I wonder what is actually happening with things
> such as pupil placement, and the law suite. Can I
> get some accurate info about those who are trying
> to pupil place ? some things written on the board
> very much contradict what the ffx public schools
> has said would be allowed, so I am wondering why
> these parents in these stories havent gone to the
> local and national media or at least written
> letters to editors of local news papers.


FairfaxCaps has a committee that is attempting to track to the numbers of kids who want to be pupil placed and the problems/successes that the parents are having. CAPS also has the most current data from fcps regarding requirements. So please let them know how pupil placing is working for your family at fairfaxCAPS.org

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > This seems to be grounds for a petition to a
> > circuit court for recall or some state
> oversight
> > on FCPS.
> >
> > In a real kick to this whole saga the school
> board
> > is pushing for an ADDITION to South County
> PRIOR
> > to building that middle school. I guess the
> high
> > school capacity will end up similar to
> Westfield.
> > So we are supposed to pay for IB, an
> unnecessary
> > middle school, AND an addition at South County.
> >
> > That is the second interim bricks and mortar
> > addition - Westfield the first - built to
> > accomodate students for another school. They
> want
> > 10 million from the board of supervisors and 2
> > from the CIP.
> >
> >
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/39
>
> >
> c6389c088be51585256e56000c1bf2/50c2def4de723d81852
>
> > 572dc00546857/$FILE/3-10-08%20WS%20Summary.pdf
>
> Amazing! How nice to live in a county where there
> is a bottomless pit of money for whatever that
> nasty Liz Bradsher wants. With over 2,000 empty
> seats in high schools surrounding South County,
> they're getting an addition? Meanwhile in the
> western part of the county, kids are forced to go
> to South Lakes, from schools that aren't even over
> crowded. I guess some people count, and some
> don't. Sigh.............

Neen- slight correction on the GT center admissions. The Otis Lennon and Cogat - 10% pool was still in effect for admission offers for the class of 2011 when they were in grade 2. The following year when those students were in grade 3 FCPS began the Naglieri and retested students NOT offered GTC [2001-02 school year]. A lot more who did not gain admission for showed up at GTC's for grade 4 joining the original block of students in the 2002-03 school year.

That also was the year FCPS set up all the new elementary centers at schools including Lorton Station, Oak Hill, and Riverside. Lorton Station is notable since FCPS made room for a GTC at the new school but not areas of FRPM students. I suppose that was because the ever greedy Fairfax Station-South County group wanted to maintain extra resources at Halley largely placed there because of the Lorton students.


Some retesters who got in were students whose parenst had filed an appeal and were denied GTC for 2001-02. Others were students whose parenst did not file an appeal or a referral. Some students were at GTC's on appeal in 01-02 who were less qualified than those who did not appeal.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hahaha.........nope. No self loathing. I just
> want every kid in FCPS to have the courses that
> they want and need. There are many excellent jobs
> available in Humanities, I'm sure. Soap Opera's
> hire lots of actresses, poets can sell books, and
> philosophy majors can become barristas or drive
> cabs. French majors can go to France and speak
> French! So many opportunities! And don't forget,
> humanities majors can always go to law school.


I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic or simply ignorant here with your view of humanities majors. The glory of a liberal arts education with majors like those you describe is that it prepares students with the critical thinking skills, broad view of world history, and knowledge across subject areas including math, science, economics and philosophy which allows them to pursue near-limitless career options.

Several of the best medical doctors I know majored in history, theology and anthropology, not biology or chemistry. Many of the best military officers I know majored in history. I majored in Economics and Theater and have spent nearly 20 years in management consulting including 10 years at Boston Consulting Group where we actively sought out the types of majors you decry specifically because we need consultants who could find innovative solutions to challenging client business issues. I am currently a VP for Oracle and manage a global e-business service delivery team.

I, too, believe that there should be choice within FCPS with regard to IB v. AP. I would, however, like to know what triggered the strong xenophobic feelings which permeate your posts.

AP vs. IB, Thank you for providing links to these three web sites. The first link shows how outside FCPS, IB often is considered a desirable program. That link is to a web site of a parent group in a Pennsylvania school district, which sued the School Board to keep an existing IB program. That IB public school offered almost a dozen AP courses, plus the IB program. This seems to be normal for IB high schools - they offer most of the meat and potatoes AP courses. The main problem in FCPS is the way FCPS staff decides to implement IB.

Regarding Neen's comments about IB students not being admitted to MIT or Caltech, I'd like to suggest another web resource, www.collegeconfidential.com. The discussion boards at that site are college-specific, and a surprising number of kids post their test scores and other credentials. If you peruse the MIT or Caltech boards, you will find students admitted who attended IB schools. Interestingly, though, some of these IB students also post AP test scores. I don't know whether they took those AP courses in their high schools, or just took the AP tests after taking the analogous IB courses.

Good luck to your son in the college admissions process next year. I do not think your son's attendance at an IB high school will hurt him in applying to colleges. Given your links to skylit about the Calc BC test, I'm guessing that you've figured out that doing well on the Calc BC test during junior year will help show that he knows his math. Doing well on the AMC 12, AIME, etc. also are very helpful, especially at places like Caltech and MIT, since the SAT, IB, and AP tests don't really distinguish among their stronger applicants. (This is similar to the problem with the math section of the TJ admissions test.)

Also, many colleges and universities offer merit scholarships to attract strong STEM majors. Some are offered by small liberal arts colleges that have a 3/2 engineering program, with semi-guaranteed admission to elite college engineering programs for the last 2 years. In sum, there are many good options for future STEM majors right now, and your son is lucky to have a mother who is researching those options so well.


AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here is an interesting site:
> http://usc-waves.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_c
> ontent&task=view&id=372&Itemid=180
>
> And these links address the scores one needs to
> pass AP tests, achieving 70% is passing and while
> that may indeed be laudable given the number of
> questions, I do wonder if it is college level
> material, in the sense that many students end up
> deciding to "retake calculus after AP calculus BC
> in hs).
> http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/CalcNet/In
> tro/Calc_Intro.html
>
> see also table 1- 2 of 7
> http://www.skylit.com/calculus/Ch1-AboutExam.pdf

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP vs. IB, Thank you for providing links to these
> three web sites. The first link shows how outside
> FCPS, IB often is considered a desirable program.
> That link is to a web site of a parent group in a
> Pennsylvania school district, which sued the
> School Board to keep an existing IB program. That
> IB public school offered almost a dozen AP
> courses, plus the IB program. This seems to be
> normal for IB high schools - they offer most of
> the meat and potatoes AP courses. The main
> problem in FCPS is the way FCPS staff decides to
> implement IB.
>
> Regarding Neen's comments about IB students not
> being admitted to MIT or Caltech, I'd like to
> suggest another web resource,
> www.collegeconfidential.com. The discussion
> boards at that site are college-specific, and a
> surprising number of kids post their test scores
> and other credentials. If you peruse the MIT or
> Caltech boards, you will find students admitted
> who attended IB schools. Interestingly, though,
> some of these IB students also post AP test
> scores. I don't know whether they took those AP
> courses in their high schools, or just took the AP
> tests after taking the analogous IB courses.
>
> Good luck to your son in the college admissions
> process next year. I do not think your son's
> attendance at an IB high school will hurt him in
> applying to colleges. Given your links to skylit
> about the Calc BC test, I'm guessing that you've
> figured out that doing well on the Calc BC test
> during junior year will help show that he knows
> his math. Doing well on the AMC 12, AIME, etc.
> also are very helpful, especially at places like
> Caltech and MIT, since the SAT, IB, and AP tests
> don't really distinguish among their stronger
> applicants. (This is similar to the problem with
> the math section of the TJ admissions test.)
>
> Also, many colleges and universities offer merit
> scholarships to attract strong STEM majors. Some
> are offered by small liberal arts colleges that
> have a 3/2 engineering program, with
> semi-guaranteed admission to elite college
> engineering programs for the last 2 years. In
> sum, there are many good options for future STEM
> majors right now, and your son is lucky to have a
> mother who is researching those options so well.
>

Thanks for all of the information. My son won't be applying next year, he is a sophomore. Coincidentally we are heading out in a couple of days for my older son, a junior, to visit his first choice college; he starts applying next year. This will be my last post here; I had intended just to share that IB wasn't as horrible as many are portraying it to be, so that those families that aren't pupil placing to an AP school can decrease their fears a bit about IB.
Sorry for getting sidetracked.

Clearly my family is not affected by this redistricting, but I do find the whole issue quite interesting, and do think the process could have been handled better by the SB.

fcps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Based on space availability, Robinson and LB swap
> with eachother for AP/IB pupilplacement.


I had the impression from the FCPS website that any interested/qualified student slated for an IB school can attend an AP school, correct? Any feedback on the intricacies would be appreciated.

That is my understanding. I believe that Robinson is the IB school for LB and Woodson (others?), but we have friends who have a daughter attending Woodson for AP as I believe that proximity plays a role in which school you are placed in. For what it's worth, their (undeclared) reason for AP placement at Woodson had nothing to do with a lack of interest in IB, but so that their daughter would have a better opportunity to make the basketball and soccer teams.

Mike Sorce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is my understanding. I believe that Robinson
> is the IB school for LB and Woodson (others?), but
> we have friends who have a daughter attending
> Woodson for AP as I believe that proximity plays a
> role in which school you are placed in. For what
> it's worth, their (undeclared) reason for AP
> placement at Woodson had nothing to do with a lack
> of interest in IB, but so that their daughter
> would have a better opportunity to make the
> basketball and soccer teams.


That helps, but it may or poses problems for working parents with providing transportation for their pupil placed kids.

Navy gets screwed by being put in the study despite the fact we live 2 miles from Chantilly. Now we get screwed again because Chantilly is closed to pupil placement. Tisdadt..............you suck for even suggesting we be put in the study. Kathy Smith..........you are truly a bitch since you can not support your constituents and thinks it is OK to jeapordize our children. Navy gets zero positives out of this whole deal. Hey Stu or Tessie, why don't you put up an amendment to keep Navy where it is. You know that you have that power and right to do so, since your bylaws say you can since you voted against us.




ah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mr e Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The things no one has brought up is that Fox
> Mill
> > is around the same age as Reston, but yet has
> many
> > younger kids, that should be a good question
> for
> > the SB? Also this issue is not making any
> > headlines in any of the local papers or the
> post.
> > So I wonder what is actually happening with
> things
> > such as pupil placement, and the law suite. Can
> I
> > get some accurate info about those who are
> trying
> > to pupil place ? some things written on the
> board
> > very much contradict what the ffx public
> schools
> > has said would be allowed, so I am wondering
> why
> > these parents in these stories havent gone to
> the
> > local and national media or at least written
> > letters to editors of local news papers.
>
>
> FairfaxCaps has a committee that is attempting to
> track to the numbers of kids who want to be pupil
> placed and the problems/successes that the parents
> are having. CAPS also has the most current data
> from fcps regarding requirements. So please let
> them know how pupil placing is working for your
> family at fairfaxCAPS.org

Taormina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hahaha.........nope. No self loathing. I just
> > want every kid in FCPS to have the courses that
> > they want and need. There are many excellent
> jobs
> > available in Humanities, I'm sure. Soap
> Opera's
> > hire lots of actresses, poets can sell books,
> and
> > philosophy majors can become barristas or drive
> > cabs. French majors can go to France and speak
> > French! So many opportunities! And don't
> forget,
> > humanities majors can always go to law school.
>
>
> I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic or
> simply ignorant here with your view of humanities
> majors. The glory of a liberal arts education
> with majors like those you describe is that it
> prepares students with the critical thinking
> skills, broad view of world history, and knowledge
> across subject areas including math, science,
> economics and philosophy which allows them to
> pursue near-limitless career options.
>
> Several of the best medical doctors I know majored
> in history, theology and anthropology, not biology
> or chemistry. Many of the best military officers
> I know majored in history. I majored in Economics
> and Theater and have spent nearly 20 years in
> management consulting including 10 years at Boston
> Consulting Group where we actively sought out the
> types of majors you decry specifically because we
> need consultants who could find innovative
> solutions to challenging client business issues.
> I am currently a VP for Oracle and manage a global
> e-business service delivery team.
>
> I, too, believe that there should be choice within
> FCPS with regard to IB v. AP. I would, however,
> like to know what triggered the strong xenophobic
> feelings which permeate your posts.

I met a young lady not to long ago that found a job as a teacher that pays over $100k and includes housing costs and a per diem for food and other expenses. She did have one unique characteristic though that many aspiring teachers don't, she is fluent in Japanese and the position was to teach English to kids in Japan.

The good jobs are by no means limited to just the math and science geeks.

Baffled Wrote:
>
> That helps, but it may or poses problems for
> working parents with providing transportation for
> their pupil placed kids.


we can handle the transportation aspect, but need assurance that spacing issues won't preclude any placement. I guess you need to apply early to preserve the ability to apply at school B in the event of a denial.

fcps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Based on space availability, Robinson and LB swap
> with eachother for AP/IB pupilplacement.


thanks. I mapquested and got a distance of 3.59 from Robinson to Woodson
and 4.36 from LBSS to Robinson. As long as we can access an AP program, we're happy.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Class of 2007 sent a student to MIT to
> study engineering. It does happen, despite what
> some might say.

Oh yeah? Which kind of engineering was her intended major? Let us know if she still in that major next year.