Not true. There were some in favor, maybe they were not at the public hearing. The "public's money" does not belong only to the people redistricted and the people of South Lakes. It belongs to the entire county, the majority of which do not care or think you are being ridiculous.



a thin thread of hope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you had attended the public hearing you would
> have known that the NO one being redistricted was
> in favor. ONLY the people who were not being
> redistricted were in favor - that is the south
> lakes people. They have nothing to lose and
> everything to gain. The people redistricted into
> south lakes having noting to gain and lost
> everything.

I am so tired of the argument there is nothing to be gained by the people being redistricted. What do you think you are owed? A public school education for your child-that is what you are owed and you will get it-just not at the school you thought. I'm tired of the entitlement!

One thing all should agree on is that the lawsuit should be speedily resolved. First, speed means reduced cost. Second, speed means certainty for the families affected, pro or con. Write to your school board member to ask them to work with CAPS to request a speedy hearing, so folks can get on with their lives, either way. It would be a disaster for many if the RD were overturned in August...if it is to be overturned, it should be done sooner than later.

I am also so tired of the argument that South Lakes is entitled to more than all other schools of similar sizes and therefore all surrounding communities should serve their needs. Stu Gibson favors south lakes and has a grudge to settle with Fox Mill and Floris - and so all this drama.
The argument about public school education is also invalid. People pay for houses based on school district. There is a reason why people want to live in good school districts. Forcing people from Oakton to SL is a loss of these people - they lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in house value and their kids cant get a good education. To say acadamics at Oakton and SL are the same is ignoring the facts about all the test results. Gibson said that there is no acadamic issue at SL on Feb 28 vote and closed the book on any possible acadamic improvements at SL.


no Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not true. There were some in favor, maybe they
> were not at the public hearing. The "public's
> money" does not belong only to the people
> redistricted and the people of South Lakes. It
> belongs to the entire county, the majority of
> which do not care or think you are being
> ridiculous.
>
>
>
> a thin thread of hope Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you had attended the public hearing you
> would
> > have known that the NO one being redistricted
> was
> > in favor. ONLY the people who were not being
> > redistricted were in favor - that is the south
> > lakes people. They have nothing to lose and
> > everything to gain. The people redistricted
> into
> > south lakes having noting to gain and lost
> > everything.

As if SBM listen to you folks. Did you try writing to them during the RD process? They could care less if the lawsuit goes on for years. They dont have a dog in this fight. The next election is 4 years away and they really dont give a damn about these schools or the students involved in this

certainty sought Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing all should agree on is that the lawsuit
> should be speedily resolved. First, speed means
> reduced cost. Second, speed means certainty for
> the families affected, pro or con. Write to your
> school board member to ask them to work with CAPS
> to request a speedy hearing, so folks can get on
> with their lives, either way. It would be a
> disaster for many if the RD were overturned in
> August...if it is to be overturned, it should be
> done sooner than later.

I desperately want to put this SB in their place by all legitimate means for its gross malfeasance in this redistricting, and particularly his craveness.

Sadly, I just finished reading the CAPS lawsuit and it's really pathetic. Hopefully, they weren't charged more than $2,500 for this effort.

This complaint is an embarrassment to the legal profession.

5 weeks from this Friday, the demurrer will be sustained and this part of this tragedy will be over and we can all move on to Stuy's recall.

no Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> using the public's money to screw the public? The
> majority of the public either does not care or is
> in favor of the redistricting. Unfortunately you
> are the minority that is getting screwed and the
> rest of the public thinks you are petty and whiny.


Please don't speak for the majority, since you haven't the foggiest idea what the majority thinks. In the Western County RD, the MAJORITY as indicated by the more than 3000 people who attended the second public meeting wanted NO CHANGE. While they may (or may not) care about the final RD plan, they didn't want the RD to happen PERIOD. If anything, they are just glad that they dodged a bullet this time. But, smart folks know that if it happened to us, it can happen to them too.

I can't imagine anyone but the petty and whiny thinking that it's petty or whiny to stand up for fairness and justice.

so tired Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am so tired of the argument there is nothing to
> be gained by the people being redistricted. What
> do you think you are owed? A public school
> education for your child-that is what you are owed
> and you will get it-just not at the school you
> thought. I'm tired of the entitlement!


It's not entitlement, it's expectation. Communities expected--and had a right to expect--that the SB would not reboundary unless it was truly necessary. It was not necessary. Communities and families have a right not to be jerked around.

longhaul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As if SBM listen to you folks. Did you try writing
> to them during the RD process? They could care
> less if the lawsuit goes on for years. They dont
> have a dog in this fight. The next election is 4
> years away and they really dont give a damn about
> these schools or the students involved in this
>
> certainty sought Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One thing all should agree on is that the
> lawsuit
> > should be speedily resolved. First, speed
> means
> > reduced cost. Second, speed means certainty
> for
> > the families affected, pro or con. Write to
> your
> > school board member to ask them to work with
> CAPS
> > to request a speedy hearing, so folks can get
> on
> > with their lives, either way. It would be a
> > disaster for many if the RD were overturned in
> > August...if it is to be overturned, it should
> be
> > done sooner than later.


Thankfully, the SB is not the driver of this bus. While it would be nice (ha) if the SB encouraged a speedy hearing, they don't get to do all the deciding this time around.

Can you point us to the URL where we can read the lawsuit?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I desperately want to put this SB in their place
> by all legitimate means for its gross malfeasance
> in this redistricting, and particularly his
> craveness.
>
> Sadly, I just finished reading the CAPS lawsuit
> and it's really pathetic. Hopefully, they weren't
> charged more than $2,500 for this effort.
>
> This complaint is an embarrassment to the legal
> profession.
>
> 5 weeks from this Friday, the demurrer will be
> sustained and this part of this tragedy will be
> over and we can all move on to Stuy's recall.

lawsuit... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you point us to the URL where we can read the
> lawsuit?
>
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I desperately want to put this SB in their
> place
> > by all legitimate means for its gross
> malfeasance
> > in this redistricting, and particularly his
> > craveness.
> >
> > Sadly, I just finished reading the CAPS lawsuit
> > and it's really pathetic. Hopefully, they
> weren't
> > charged more than $2,500 for this effort.
> >
> > This complaint is an embarrassment to the legal
> > profession.
> >
> > 5 weeks from this Friday, the demurrer will be
> > sustained and this part of this tragedy will be
> > over and we can all move on to Stuy's recall.


I could be wrong (and I apologize in advance if I am), but I think you are a liar, TM. I have seen the complaint, but I couldn't find it during a web search yet. I don't think you've seen it either. I think you're just being ugly about the lawsuit (and a document you have not seen yet) because you are so focused on your Gibson recall.

The list of judges are at the link below. Anyone knows whether this will be a jury trail? If so I hope they get a jury from outside else Stuy will try to get SL PTSA on the jury!!!

www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/circuit/circuit_court_judges.htm

http://fairfaxcaps.org/html/lawsuit.html This page has a link to the full 20-page PDF file.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I desperately want to put this SB in their place
> by all legitimate means for its gross malfeasance
> in this redistricting, and particularly his
> craveness.
>
> Sadly, I just finished reading the CAPS lawsuit
> and it's really pathetic. Hopefully, they weren't
> charged more than $2,500 for this effort.
>
> This complaint is an embarrassment to the legal
> profession.
>
> 5 weeks from this Friday, the demurrer will be
> sustained and this part of this tragedy will be
> over and we can all move on to Stuy's recall.

Why 5 weeks from Friday? Does FCPS have to file something in court?

>>>While it would be nice (ha) if the SB encouraged a speedy hearing, they don't get to do all the deciding this time around.<<<

How would the SB do that? Do they control the court schedule too?

Not about SL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > using the public's money to screw the public?
> The
> > majority of the public either does not care or
> is
> > in favor of the redistricting. Unfortunately
> you
> > are the minority that is getting screwed and
> the
> > rest of the public thinks you are petty and
> whiny.
>
>
> Please don't speak for the majority, since you
> haven't the foggiest idea what the majority
> thinks. In the Western County RD, the MAJORITY as
> indicated by the more than 3000 people who
> attended the second public meeting wanted NO
> CHANGE. While they may (or may not) care about
> the final RD plan, they didn't want the RD to
> happen PERIOD. If anything, they are just glad
> that they dodged a bullet this time. But, smart
> folks know that if it happened to us, it can
> happen to them too.
>
> I can't imagine anyone but the petty and whiny
> thinking that it's petty or whiny to stand up for
> fairness and justice.

Yes. How can people in the county not realize that their neighborhood could be next, for no reason other than the local school board member thinks their neighborhood should be in another school. The school board doesn't have to consider any other options, they can simply move families at will. They did it to Floris and Fox Mill, they can do it to YOU, or anyone else.

Lopter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope FFX CAPS has a better arguement than
> "arbitrary and capricious and undertaken in excess
> of its authority." What???
>
> Get a clue how the FFX County social circuit
> works. The Fairfax judges will just throw this
> out because they want to keep their positions in
> FFX County. A waste of money and time. The only
> way to get this changed is to influence the SB
> members and that failed 10-2.

The school board controls the judges? Stu Gibson has more power than the judges in Fairfax County? Our school board can have judges thrown out of their jobs? Wow. Just wow.

Things are worse than I ever imagined.

Know something Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > start to throw out ib Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The first most pressing order of business is
> to
> > > throw out IB and get in AP to level the
> playing
> > > field with other high performing schools.
> >
> > Why would they do that? Stu loves IB. Stu
> gets
> > what he wants at South Lakes.
> >
> > I hear that the SL PTSA is going to form a
> little
> > committee of parents to discuss academic
> options
> > at South Lakes, a sub committee of academic
> > boosters, a group that overwhelmingly supports
> IB.
> > Sounds like a set up, a committee formed with
> the
> > outcome predetermined. Imagine that, in FCPS!
> > Hahaha
>
>
> Not true. There are FM parents joining the
> committee who are very interested in the AP
> curriculum. And, interestingly, there are a
> number of SLPTSA parents currently on the board
> who have wanted AP for a while (but have been
> hushed by others on the board.). While the IB
> contingent has been loud at SL, they have not been
> the only voice at SL.

Uh nuh. Let us know how that works for you. Let us know when your sub committee reaffirms the South Lakes commitment to IB.

What makes you think that the same people won't still be in control at South Lakes PTSA? Of course they will. There have ALWAYS been people at South Lakes, even VERY high up on the board of the PTSA, who did not favor IB and wanted AP. (Stu is not fond of them, needless to say.) Why would you think those people would have any more influence now? Stu and the staff do not want AP at South Lakes. So there will not be AP at South Lakes. But it's nice that the PTSA is allowing other parents to attend these meetings. That way they can pretend to listen and care.

When did parents ever change an academic program at a high school? Parents have wanted another TJ for 15 years or more. Nearly 3,000 students apply each year for fewer than 500 spots. But the school board will NOT even consider another magnet of any kind, no matter what parents want. Many parents want a humanities magnet, but FCPS won't hear of it. Numerous times the school board's own advisory committee has recommended another TJ, and academic magnets, including an IB magnet at one or two of the under enrolled schools, including South Lakes and Mt. Vernon. The school board ignores their recommendations, just as they ignore what parents want. I wouldn't expect that to change at South Lakes, or any other high school. But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the PTSA meetings at South Lakes and perhaps support a fund raiser or volunteer to help out in some other way.

a thin thread of hope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The argument about public school education is also
> invalid. People pay for houses based on school
> district. There is a reason why people want to
> live in good school districts. Forcing people from
> Oakton to SL is a loss of these people - they lose
> hundreds of thousands of dollars in house value
> and their kids cant get a good education.

People paid a housing premium to live in Fairfax County and attend Fairfax County Public Schools. FCPS IS THE SCHOOL DISTRICT! You may live in the Robinson or Oakton pyramid, but it remains a COUNTY school system. Solid 'A' students at Chantilly or Westfield are not suddenly going to become mediocre 'C' students at South Lakes due to some substandard teaching. No one is losing "hundreds of thousands of dollars in house value" as a result of the boundary change.

Reading many of these posts makes me wonder how you people manage to keep jobs when you spout this type of stream of consciousness which you want everyone to regard as metaphysical facts.

No, the majority of the county not being screwed are saying "Thank God it isn't me being screwed by the SB...this time".

no Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not true. There were some in favor, maybe they
> were not at the public hearing. The "public's
> money" does not belong only to the people
> redistricted and the people of South Lakes. It
> belongs to the entire county, the majority of
> which do not care or think you are being
> ridiculous.
>
>
>
> a thin thread of hope Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you had attended the public hearing you
> would
> > have known that the NO one being redistricted
> was
> > in favor. ONLY the people who were not being
> > redistricted were in favor - that is the south
> > lakes people. They have nothing to lose and
> > everything to gain. The people redistricted
> into
> > south lakes having noting to gain and lost
> > everything.

Tired of the bull about South Lakes.

These are the facts;

South lakes has been a failed school, is a failed school and will be a failed school.

The reason for these failures is Stu Gibson and the school board mismanagement of this school for a long time.

They never fixed the problems with the programs, rather they think that by RD they will bring in students who will fix the problems.

Do not allow the RD to work. Pupil place out of SL, move or go to a private school.

SapphicHokieMom Wrote:
> ... it remains a
> COUNTY school system. Solid 'A' students at
> Chantilly or Westfield are not suddenly going to
> become mediocre 'C' students at South Lakes due to
> some substandard teaching. No one is losing
> "hundreds of thousands of dollars in house value"
> as a result of the boundary change. ...

Any school can simply hand out more "A's," but what does that prove? By this standard, FCPS is a failing school system in that a far smaller percentage of FCPS students graduate with GPA's above 4.0 than in many other, even neighboring school systems - but that is a topic for another thread.

If specific schools are not important, why are they included in real estate listings?

Have you not paid any attention to the IB-AP discussions? IB is a good college PREP curriculum for some students, but most families prefer AP freshman college-LEVEL courses.

And if for whatever reason you believe IB and AP are the same, then why not get rid of the far more expensive IB?

UPSET Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tired of the bull about South Lakes.
>
> These are the facts;
>
> South lakes has been a failed school, is a failed
> school and will be a failed school.
>
> The reason for these failures is Stu Gibson and
> the school board mismanagement of this school for
> a long time.
>
> They never fixed the problems with the programs,
> rather they think that by RD they will bring in
> students who will fix the problems.
>
> Do not allow the RD to work. Pupil place out of
> SL, move or go to a private school.


Dream on, loser. LLLLLLLOOOOOSSSSEEER. U make me sick with your whining, malicious bullsh%$. Your kids no doubt hate your guts and are embarrassed by your dyspeptic moaning. STFU. You give me heartburn.

complaint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could be wrong (and I apologize in advance if I am), but I think you are a liar, > TM. I have seen the complaint, but I couldn't find it during a web search yet. I > don't think you've seen it either. I think you're just being ugly about the
> lawsuit (and a document you have not seen yet) because you are so focused on your > Gibson recall.

As others have already noted, it's a pdf file on the CAPS website (waiting on that apology).

Lawsuit - It would have been a bench (non-jury) trial but it will never get to discovery, never mind trial.

Neen - a demurrer is the pleading that Cawley will file for the SB to get rid of this case.

Sounds like I struck a nerve. I hope you are not so sick that you need to go to the Stu Gibson hospital for sick F__K up parents.

Take a few heart burn pills, maybe twenty.


Less upset since UR Upset Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UPSET Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tired of the bull about South Lakes.
> >
> > These are the facts;
> >
> > South lakes has been a failed school, is a
> failed
> > school and will be a failed school.
> >
> > The reason for these failures is Stu Gibson and
> > the school board mismanagement of this school
> for
> > a long time.
> >
> > They never fixed the problems with the
> programs,
> > rather they think that by RD they will bring in
> > students who will fix the problems.
> >
> > Do not allow the RD to work. Pupil place out of
> > SL, move or go to a private school.
>
>
> Dream on, loser. LLLLLLLOOOOOSSSSEEER. U make me
> sick with your whining, malicious bullsh%$. Your
> kids no doubt hate your guts and are embarrassed
> by your dyspeptic moaning. STFU. You give me
> heartburn.

It is soooo great we don't see your #%TERE face....you sound to me like a Hoochie Mama and a SL groupie. You have no class. I bet you are a truly redneck.
Keep up the good work....you don't have a job and truly enjoy the miseries of others. But, guess what? One day will be your turn and we ALL see for what you are: A LOSER!
Have a "wonderful" day in Hell...and please don't come back...LOSER!!
and Yes....we two deserve each other! I am the other side of your face


UPSET Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds like I struck a nerve. I hope you are not
> so sick that you need to go to the Stu Gibson
> hospital for sick F__K up parents.
>
> Take a few heart burn pills, maybe twenty.
>
>
> Less upset since UR Upset Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > UPSET Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Tired of the bull about South Lakes.
> > >
> > > These are the facts;
> > >
> > > South lakes has been a failed school, is a
> > failed
> > > school and will be a failed school.
> > >
> > > The reason for these failures is Stu Gibson
> and
> > > the school board mismanagement of this school
> > for
> > > a long time.
> > >
> > > They never fixed the problems with the
> > programs,
> > > rather they think that by RD they will bring
> in
> > > students who will fix the problems.
> > >
> > > Do not allow the RD to work. Pupil place out
> of
> > > SL, move or go to a private school.
> >
> >
> > Dream on, loser. LLLLLLLOOOOOSSSSEEER. U make
> me
> > sick with your whining, malicious bullsh%$.
> Your
> > kids no doubt hate your guts and are
> embarrassed
> > by your dyspeptic moaning. STFU. You give me
> > heartburn.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> complaint Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I could be wrong (and I apologize in advance if
> I am), but I think you are a liar, > TM. I have
> seen the complaint, but I couldn't find it during
> a web search yet. I > don't think you've seen it
> either. I think you're just being ugly about the
>
> > lawsuit (and a document you have not seen yet)
> because you are so focused on your > Gibson
> recall.
>
> As others have already noted, it's a pdf file on
> the CAPS website (waiting on that apology).
>
> Lawsuit - It would have been a bench (non-jury)
> trial but it will never get to discovery, never
> mind trial.
>
> Neen - a demurrer is the pleading that Cawley will
> file for the SB to get rid of this case.


TM, I apologize for suggesting you are a liar.
But, I've always thought you were pretty sharp (except that you are totally fixed on the Gibson recall, which I don't think has a chance in hell to happen), so I was surprised that if you had read the lawsuit that you would talk so disparagingly about it. I figured that if you had read it you would have understood the significance of citing the Dillon Rule. How can a VA court ignore this??? I don't think it can.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://fairfaxcaps.org/html/lawsuit.html This
> page has a link to the full 20-page PDF file.


FYI

I went to all the SB meetings regarding the Western Fairfax redistricting sessions and the School Board and FCPS officials said time after time that the process was FLAWED, FLAWED, FLAWED AND FLAWED.

This must be used in the lawsuit. If the SB omitted that it was flawed before the vote, then I think that they broke their own rules and policies.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Know something Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > start to throw out ib Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > The first most pressing order of business
> is
> > to
> > > > throw out IB and get in AP to level the
> > playing
> > > > field with other high performing schools.
> > >
> > > Why would they do that? Stu loves IB. Stu
> > gets
> > > what he wants at South Lakes.
> > >
> > > I hear that the SL PTSA is going to form a
> > little
> > > committee of parents to discuss academic
> > options
> > > at South Lakes, a sub committee of academic
> > > boosters, a group that overwhelmingly
> supports
> > IB.
> > > Sounds like a set up, a committee formed
> with
> > the
> > > outcome predetermined. Imagine that, in FCPS!
>
> > > Hahaha
> >
> >
> > Not true. There are FM parents joining the
> > committee who are very interested in the AP
> > curriculum. And, interestingly, there are a
> > number of SLPTSA parents currently on the board
> > who have wanted AP for a while (but have been
> > hushed by others on the board.). While the IB
> > contingent has been loud at SL, they have not
> been
> > the only voice at SL.
>
> Uh nuh. Let us know how that works for you. Let
> us know when your sub committee reaffirms the
> South Lakes commitment to IB.
>
> What makes you think that the same people won't
> still be in control at South Lakes PTSA? Of
> course they will. There have ALWAYS been people
> at South Lakes, even VERY high up on the board of
> the PTSA, who did not favor IB and wanted AP.
> (Stu is not fond of them, needless to say.) Why
> would you think those people would have any more
> influence now? Stu and the staff do not want AP
> at South Lakes. So there will not be AP at South
> Lakes. But it's nice that the PTSA is allowing
> other parents to attend these meetings. That way
> they can pretend to listen and care.
>
> When did parents ever change an academic program
> at a high school? Parents have wanted another TJ
> for 15 years or more. Nearly 3,000 students apply
> each year for fewer than 500 spots. But the
> school board will NOT even consider another magnet
> of any kind, no matter what parents want. Many
> parents want a humanities magnet, but FCPS won't
> hear of it. Numerous times the school board's own
> advisory committee has recommended another TJ, and
> academic magnets, including an IB magnet at one or
> two of the under enrolled schools, including South
> Lakes and Mt. Vernon. The school board ignores
> their recommendations, just as they ignore what
> parents want. I wouldn't expect that to change at
> South Lakes, or any other high school. But that
> doesn't mean you can't enjoy the PTSA meetings at
> South Lakes and perhaps support a fund raiser or
> volunteer to help out in some other way.


Current SLPTA prez E. Vandenberg has an 11th grader. She and her team of RD and IB strategizers won't be at SL forever. Maria Allen,a SLPTSA board member, has long been a strong advocate to bring AP to SL. (And, hopefully the current SB won't be around forever either.) It may not happen right away, but if everyone just says "aint gonna happen, then it won't." Those who stand up and participate can make a difference, but it obviously won't happen overnight. Those looking for quick fixes will have to look elsewhere.

FACTS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > http://fairfaxcaps.org/html/lawsuit.html This
> > page has a link to the full 20-page PDF file.
>
>
> FYI
>
> I went to all the SB meetings regarding the
> Western Fairfax redistricting sessions and the
> School Board and FCPS officials said time after
> time that the process was FLAWED, FLAWED, FLAWED
> AND FLAWED.
>
> This must be used in the lawsuit. If the SB
> omitted that it was flawed before the vote, then I
> think that they broke their own rules and
> policies.

This is a dirty business but someone had to do it. That Langley addition began almost concurrently with the boundary process. it was supposed to be done and over prior to the process but the illegal dumping delayed construction. Fox Mill? The proximity to South Lakes is obvious for some of it's people but others ? Not the case. Floris has been mistreated for years.

Demographics and Federal Laws? Ignored by FCPS with the Langley boundaries. State may not address demographics but the Feds do and it would seem FCPS has violated closest to residence assignment. Bussing predominantly white middle class areas great distances to a homogeneous school when a more heterogeneous school is close to the residence is sketchy.

The lawsuit addresses equity - follow the process and treat all areas the same. IMHO it was only a matter of time before somebody did this. Navy? they are bussed further to Oakton than the Silverbrookers [old option 2A or 2B] would have been to Lake braddock.

Another problem with the SL's chnage is that the school was stuffed to a % of utilization that yields trailers. FCPS is also fiscally irresponsible in continuing IB on this scope when AP would more than suffice at about 1/2 the cost.

last night Rick nelson testified to the BOS on FCPS achievement v Richmond. Astonishing poor performance on the part of FCPS comparatively. Richmond has poor inner city areas [think DC style old housing/slums] that do better academically on SOL's than FCPS.

Are you kidding? What a sorry lawsuit. I hope this is over soon so CAPS can see how idiotic they look to the rest of the world. My kids transferred into South Lakes from an extremely well regarded school in Montgomery County MD and maintained the same GPA/activities they were involved in with no problem. They were not straight A or IB diploma students but somehow made it into the top schools in VA? Grow up CAPS. You are lucky that your children are entitled to a Fairfax County education. Count your blessings and move on.

Wow, I just read in this morning's paper about the CAPS suit against Fairfax County.

We live in a *very* mixed neighborhood with homes well over a million dollars as well as more modest townhomes, and our kids will go to South Lakes. I know many, many kids who go there and their families are very happy. One student who attends is my niece who has lived all over the world and has attended the best private schools money can buy. She can afford to go to any private school in the area or even the entire U.S., but her family sends her to South Lakes and they are very happy there. She is a polite, well-spoken, nice, and smart girl. The rumors of gangs and violence are just silly, and the teachers are dedicated and highly qualified. I will happily send my kids there.

It's been my opinion that people who don't want their kids to go to SL are either racist, elitist, or had not examined the issue with a clear head, to be nice about it. Now, I see they are hoping to take MY tax money by winning a law suit against the County so they can send their precious flowers to a private school where they won't have to rub elbows with someone who doesn't speak English well (ICK!) or gets a discounted lunch (YUCK!) or may have darker skin (TERRIBLE!). How disgraceful. Your poor kids...

mother Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you kidding? What a sorry lawsuit. I hope this
> is over soon so CAPS can see how idiotic they look
> to the rest of the world. My kids transferred into
> South Lakes from an extremely well regarded school
> in Montgomery County MD and maintained the same
> GPA/activities they were involved in with no
> problem. They were not straight A or IB diploma
> students but somehow made it into the top schools
> in VA? Grow up CAPS. You are lucky that your
> children are entitled to a Fairfax County
> education. Count your blessings and move on.


Are YOU kidding? How nice that you chose SL. YOU had a choice. I think the lawsuit is very solid. Do you understand Dillon? Do you understand that what the SB has done is beyond their authority? Do you think the SB should be the ultimate authority--that there should be do forum for redress? (Are you an American? Do you believe in the democratic process?) Count your blessing that YOU were able to chose your school. Would it e a terrible thing to YOU if I got the same opportunity? No matter what happens, I am proud to support Caps.

“It's been my opinion that people who don't want their kids to go to SL are either racist, elitist, or had not examined the issue with a clear head, to be nice about it. Now, I see they are hoping to take MY tax money by winning a law suit against the County so they can send their precious flowers to a private school where they won't have to rub elbows with someone who doesn't speak English well (ICK!) or gets a discounted lunch (YUCK!) or may have darker skin (TERRIBLE!). How disgraceful. Your poor kids...”

I guess Langley is exempt from all this, they do not want to send their children to South Lakes and everybody is okay with that, they are not being called racist. It’s all those Oakton and others who must be the racist because they were forced to go to South Lakes.

I didn't say Langley is exempt from all this, you did.

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “It's been my opinion that people who don't want
> their kids to go to SL are either racist, elitist,
> or had not examined the issue with a clear head,
> to be nice about it. Now, I see they are hoping to
> take MY tax money by winning a law suit against
> the County so they can send their precious flowers
> to a private school where they won't have to rub
> elbows with someone who doesn't speak English well
> (ICK!) or gets a discounted lunch (YUCK!) or may
> have darker skin (TERRIBLE!). How disgraceful.
> Your poor kids...”
>
> I guess Langley is exempt from all this, they do
> not want to send their children to South Lakes and
> everybody is okay with that, they are not being
> called racist. It’s all those Oakton and others
> who must be the racist because they were forced to
> go to South Lakes.


Oh my god what did you just say?? That Langley isn't racist at all and that everybody's ok with Langley being excepted from all this redistricting sh't? How many times do I have to repeat this..this has NOTHING to do about racism at all, period! It has to do with the boundary process that was carried out as FLAWED and as corrupted as ever. I can't speak for others, but many parents have wanted to see the process be carried out in the most fairest way. This one? No.

I guess you missed my point! I think what the school board did to Oakton and the rest is horrible, they should not have been sent to South Lakes. Langley should have been sent to South Lakes, and no addition should be built. It is not about being a racist; it’s about what the school board did. People just use that when they can not say anything else.

Oh, right... it's all about "fairness." Please.

Good Im glad you are imploring the most villified judicial doctrine in the Commonwealth of Virginia and the taxpayers money to make sure your children do not attend South Lakes. That will win you a lot of points on top of the many that you already have.

Do YOU understand the Dillon Rule? Do YOU understand the implications of what could occur if the Dillon Rule were used in all cases of powers not expressly given to Fairfax County (not just schools)?

Keep going forward with this nonsense. Ostrasize your kids from their peers. Become the laughing stock of the country. You think your housing values declined from being sent to South Lakes? Imagine what the Virginia government could do to Fairfax County if they used this rule. We already have enough problems with Richmond. Thanks for creating more.

Oh PS, your lawsuit is a joke. It is the laughing stock of the firm this morning. I hope your lawyers are getting paid well because they are pulling you for a long one.

Oh please. This is absolutely about race. You can deny it all you want, maybe you actually dont even realize it, but it is so obvious that if you actually HAD listened to what students similar to your own had achieved at South Lakes you would not be so adverse to sending them there.

If you had been redistricted to Langley, yes, you may have put up some sort of fight to stay at Oakton but there is no way it would be like this. Unfortunately "everyone is a little bit racist" (Avenue Q) and you are no exception. Until you can realize that, you are doomed to a life of petty disappointments and paranoia while the rest of the people look at you and shake their heads.

thanks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good Im glad you are imploring the most villified judicial doctrine in the
> Commonwealth of Virginia
>
> Do YOU understand the Dillon Rule?

Dillon's Rule is more villified than Jim Crow? Really? No hyperbole there, right?

> Do YOU understand the implications of what could occur if the Dillon Rule were
> used in all cases of powers not expressly given to Fairfax County (not just
> schools)?

Actually the application of Dillon's Rule in Virginia has enabled its local governments to have more autonomy than the the local governments of 46 other states, at least according to the League of Women Voters.

But since the General Assembly saw fit not to put any procedural or substantive limitations on a school board's power to redistrict (other than the rather vague one about efficiency), it's very hard to see how the CAPS complaint's Dillon's Rule argument accomplishes anything.

Complaint - the recall is a much stronger case given the public admission of wrongdoing by Gibson and the Board and their decision not to appeal. Will a court find that transgression, and others still being investigated, to be sufficient for removal is a question for the fact finder. That case will survive demurrer,require Gibson to hire his own lawyer, enable discovery and a trial, and thus accomplish far more than the redistricting challenge, even if recall is denied. Thus, my "fixation."

I find the whole CAPS thing rather hilarious. I'm sitting in my easy chair with a TV dinner watching the soaps. I know a couple of the people on the "aggrieved" list, and I can tell you they are daft and gullible. The problem is that CAPS is spending enormous amounts of time and energy that they could have been spending UNIFYING instead of dividing, and they're wasting my tax money via FCPS lawyers that have to roll their eyes and go through the motions to get this thing tossed out, as it will be.

CAPS is also losing the support of the board members who do want to revise the boundary process, one of whom, Tina Hone, is a lawyer and warned them against taking this route. CAPS also is continuing to promote a coup at South Lakes, which is gaining them boobie points. Especially the parents who have already filled out their 8th graders' college applications to the likes of Harvard and MIT and CalTech. Livin' vicariously through their kids. It's self-destructive, but I'm frankly going to have a great time watching them all implode. Too bad they don't have any honey in their salt-filled larders.

Feel sorry for their kids, though.

Soap,
You want unification? Unify Reston. Oh yeah, even the folks in North Point don't want to go to your school.

It is really hard to demonize parents who are advocating strongly for their children. Based on test scores, South Lakes does not appear to be a strong academic school. Many of these parents' concerns are valid.

If we need a villain here than I think the likely parties are the SL PTA who hijacked these students from neighboring schools and the School Board who, thru all their back room deals, screwed these people royally.

Why is no one asking these wonderful caring SL parents where the hell they have been for the last 5 years while their school freefalled?

Why did Jack Dale and the SB neglect this school for so long?

How many other schools are also in dire need of "fixing"?

Everyone is ignoring the obvious.

Ubikwity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, I just read in this morning's paper about the
> CAPS suit against Fairfax County.
>
> We live in a *very* mixed neighborhood with homes
> well over a million dollars as well as more modest
> townhomes, and our kids will go to South Lakes. I
> know many, many kids who go there and their
> families are very happy. One student who attends
> is my niece who has lived all over the world and
> has attended the best private schools money can
> buy. She can afford to go to any private school
> in the area or even the entire U.S., but her
> family sends her to South Lakes and they are very
> happy there. She is a polite, well-spoken, nice,
> and smart girl. The rumors of gangs and violence
> are just silly, and the teachers are dedicated and
> highly qualified. I will happily send my kids
> there.
>
> It's been my opinion that people who don't want
> their kids to go to SL are either racist, elitist,
> or had not examined the issue with a clear head,
> to be nice about it. Now, I see they are hoping
> to take MY tax money by winning a law suit against
> the County so they can send their precious flowers
> to a private school where they won't have to rub
> elbows with someone who doesn't speak English well
> (ICK!) or gets a discounted lunch (YUCK!) or may
> have darker skin (TERRIBLE!). How disgraceful.
> Your poor kids...

Stop, stop stop. It's clear that if there is no good, reasonable argument, then folks throw out the racism card. Enough. Fox Mill and Floris are very middle class. We are not affluent neighborhoods and our populations are diverse. Unlike parts of Reston, we don't have any million dollar homes. And what is your reference to private schools all about? We are not a neighborhood who attends fancy private schools...geez...before making a comment like that act as if you know something of what you are talking about.
Also, in the past few weeks, dozens (and dozens) of families from FM have visited SL--and we've all been very impressed. I don't know anybody who had anything bad to say about the school, principal, faculty or students. SL curriculum night on March 25 was VERY well attended by Fox Mill. In fact, we filled the auditorium. It was a nice event, and just one more example that it is a good school with much to offer.

Also, how nice that your niece CHOSE SL. See that important word CHOSE? I'm not surprised she is happy at a good school that she chose.

As far as your tax dollars go, go yell at the FCPS board. They're the ones who created this situation. They could stop it all now and it wouldn't cost you a cent.

This isn't about race. Why aren't SouthLakes Test scores as high as the schools these kids would have attended? The school board needs to answer that. If test scores were just as high then even those being bussed all the way to Langley would want to go to SouthLakes. If anything the school board is saying it is racist. The IB vs AP is another story, but is a fair reason to not want to go to a school. If IB was the best for everyone then Langley would have IB and so would TJ. Even the IB website states IB can not be forced on to a community, as it is not for everyone, and those who want IB can and do pupil place. One has to look at why most of the IB schools have lower test scores and high percentages of minorities. The low test scores of alot of schools with IB also adds to parents not wanting IB for their kids. This is Fairfax county not Prince William, so race is not much of an issue here, Watch the school board meetings there were many minorities who spoke out against redistricting for the same reasons as the whites who spoke out against it. One also has to wonder why this area has had so much redistricting Floris especially ( they were promised Westfeild would be their home school). If the schools board did what they said they were going to do, those who live in herndon and reston but are zoned to Langley would be sent back to Herndon and South Lakes first. If it was not racism then the problems at South Lakes would be fixed instead of trying to mask them. So this law suite has merrit

want ap Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Know something Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Neen Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > start to throw out ib Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > The first most pressing order of business
> > is
> > > to
> > > > > throw out IB and get in AP to level the
> > > playing
> > > > > field with other high performing schools.
> > > >
> > > > Why would they do that? Stu loves IB. Stu
> > > gets
> > > > what he wants at South Lakes.
> > > >
> > > > I hear that the SL PTSA is going to form a
> > > little
> > > > committee of parents to discuss academic
> > > options
> > > > at South Lakes, a sub committee of academic
> > > > boosters, a group that overwhelmingly
> > supports
> > > IB.
> > > > Sounds like a set up, a committee formed
> > with
> > > the
> > > > outcome predetermined. Imagine that, in
> FCPS!
> >
> > > > Hahaha
> > >
> > >
> > > Not true. There are FM parents joining the
> > > committee who are very interested in the AP
> > > curriculum. And, interestingly, there are a
> > > number of SLPTSA parents currently on the
> board
> > > who have wanted AP for a while (but have been
> > > hushed by others on the board.). While the
> IB
> > > contingent has been loud at SL, they have not
> > been
> > > the only voice at SL.
> >
> > Uh nuh. Let us know how that works for you.
> Let
> > us know when your sub committee reaffirms the
> > South Lakes commitment to IB.
> >
> > What makes you think that the same people won't
> > still be in control at South Lakes PTSA? Of
> > course they will. There have ALWAYS been
> people
> > at South Lakes, even VERY high up on the board
> of
> > the PTSA, who did not favor IB and wanted AP.
> > (Stu is not fond of them, needless to say.)
> Why
> > would you think those people would have any
> more
> > influence now? Stu and the staff do not want
> AP
> > at South Lakes. So there will not be AP at
> South
> > Lakes. But it's nice that the PTSA is allowing
> > other parents to attend these meetings. That
> way
> > they can pretend to listen and care.
> >
> > When did parents ever change an academic
> program
> > at a high school? Parents have wanted another
> TJ
> > for 15 years or more. Nearly 3,000 students
> apply
> > each year for fewer than 500 spots. But the
> > school board will NOT even consider another
> magnet
> > of any kind, no matter what parents want. Many
> > parents want a humanities magnet, but FCPS
> won't
> > hear of it. Numerous times the school board's
> own
> > advisory committee has recommended another TJ,
> and
> > academic magnets, including an IB magnet at one
> or
> > two of the under enrolled schools, including
> South
> > Lakes and Mt. Vernon. The school board ignores
> > their recommendations, just as they ignore what
> > parents want. I wouldn't expect that to change
> at
> > South Lakes, or any other high school. But
> that
> > doesn't mean you can't enjoy the PTSA meetings
> at
> > South Lakes and perhaps support a fund raiser
> or
> > volunteer to help out in some other way.
>
>
> Current SLPTA prez E. Vandenberg has an 11th
> grader. She and her team of RD and IB strategizers
> won't be at SL forever. Maria Allen,a SLPTSA board
> member, has long been a strong advocate to bring
> AP to SL. (And, hopefully the current SB won't be
> around forever either.) It may not happen right
> away, but if everyone just says "aint gonna
> happen, then it won't." Those who stand up and
> participate can make a difference, but it
> obviously won't happen overnight. Those looking
> for quick fixes will have to look elsewhere.

Ms. Vandenberg will soon have a rising 9th grader, so it may not be forever, but it is at least another 5-6 years. And you see, or maybe you don't, that parents aren't going to send their student to SL just so they can make changes that won't happen for years to come. If students want AP, then they will go to AP. Parents aren't going to send their AP students to SL in hopes that SL changes their mind in 4 years.

want ap Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Know something Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Neen Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > start to throw out ib Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > The first most pressing order of business
> > is
> > > to
> > > > > throw out IB and get in AP to level the
> > > playing
> > > > > field with other high performing schools.
> > > >
> > > > Why would they do that? Stu loves IB. Stu
> > > gets
> > > > what he wants at South Lakes.
> > > >
> > > > I hear that the SL PTSA is going to form a
> > > little
> > > > committee of parents to discuss academic
> > > options
> > > > at South Lakes, a sub committee of academic
> > > > boosters, a group that overwhelmingly
> > supports
> > > IB.
> > > > Sounds like a set up, a committee formed
> > with
> > > the
> > > > outcome predetermined. Imagine that, in
> FCPS!
> >
> > > > Hahaha
> > >
> > >
> > > Not true. There are FM parents joining the
> > > committee who are very interested in the AP
> > > curriculum. And, interestingly, there are a
> > > number of SLPTSA parents currently on the
> board
> > > who have wanted AP for a while (but have been
> > > hushed by others on the board.). While the
> IB
> > > contingent has been loud at SL, they have not
> > been
> > > the only voice at SL.
> >
> > Uh nuh. Let us know how that works for you.
> Let
> > us know when your sub committee reaffirms the
> > South Lakes commitment to IB.
> >
> > What makes you think that the same people won't
> > still be in control at South Lakes PTSA? Of
> > course they will. There have ALWAYS been
> people
> > at South Lakes, even VERY high up on the board
> of
> > the PTSA, who did not favor IB and wanted AP.
> > (Stu is not fond of them, needless to say.)
> Why
> > would you think those people would have any
> more
> > influence now? Stu and the staff do not want
> AP
> > at South Lakes. So there will not be AP at
> South
> > Lakes. But it's nice that the PTSA is allowing
> > other parents to attend these meetings. That
> way
> > they can pretend to listen and care.
> >
> > When did parents ever change an academic
> program
> > at a high school? Parents have wanted another
> TJ
> > for 15 years or more. Nearly 3,000 students
> apply
> > each year for fewer than 500 spots. But the
> > school board will NOT even consider another
> magnet
> > of any kind, no matter what parents want. Many
> > parents want a humanities magnet, but FCPS
> won't
> > hear of it. Numerous times the school board's
> own
> > advisory committee has recommended another TJ,
> and
> > academic magnets, including an IB magnet at one
> or
> > two of the under enrolled schools, including
> South
> > Lakes and Mt. Vernon. The school board ignores
> > their recommendations, just as they ignore what
> > parents want. I wouldn't expect that to change
> at
> > South Lakes, or any other high school. But
> that
> > doesn't mean you can't enjoy the PTSA meetings
> at
> > South Lakes and perhaps support a fund raiser
> or
> > volunteer to help out in some other way.
>
>
> Current SLPTA prez E. Vandenberg has an 11th
> grader. She and her team of RD and IB strategizers
> won't be at SL forever. Maria Allen,a SLPTSA board
> member, has long been a strong advocate to bring
> AP to SL. (And, hopefully the current SB won't be
> around forever either.) It may not happen right
> away, but if everyone just says "aint gonna
> happen, then it won't." Those who stand up and
> participate can make a difference, but it
> obviously won't happen overnight. Those looking
> for quick fixes will have to look elsewhere.

Ms. Vandenberg will soon have a rising 9th grader, so it may not be forever, but it is at least another 5-6 years. And you see, or maybe you don't, that parents aren't going to send their student to SL just so they can make changes that won't happen for years to come. If students want AP, then they will go to AP. Parents aren't going to send their AP students to SL in hopes that SL changes their mind in 4 years.

mr. e,

The lower test scores have been addressed many many times. If you took the socioeconomic representative make-up of Oakton or Westfield from SL, you would find that the average score at SL would be the same, if not higher, than those at Oakton and Westfield. Yes, the lower preforming students absolutely need to be addressed. But your lower test scores argument does not fly when it comes to sending your child to South Lakes. As you have said many many times, you are a very middle class area. Your children will excell at South Lakes. Sorry to break it to you but race is an issue everywhere, not just PW county. The level of overtness/awareness is what differs. Maybe racism is not the correct term in this case. Classism, which is equally as bad, might be a better term.

nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mr. e,
>
> The lower test scores have been addressed many
> many times. If you took the socioeconomic
> representative make-up of Oakton or Westfield from
> SL, you would find that the average score at SL
> would be the same, if not higher, than those at
> Oakton and Westfield. Yes, the lower preforming
> students absolutely need to be addressed. But your
> lower test scores argument does not fly when it
> comes to sending your child to South Lakes. As you
> have said many many times, you are a very middle
> class area. Your children will excell at South
> Lakes. Sorry to break it to you but race is an
> issue everywhere, not just PW county. The level of
> overtness/awareness is what differs. Maybe racism
> is not the correct term in this case. Classism,
> which is equally as bad, might be a better term.

doesn't seem like classism or racism to want kids to go to a school where the other students

a) speak english
b) can be bothered to learn

and not unreasonable to have an expectation that they not be removed against your will from pyramids where that is true into ones where its questionable?

or is that too blunt?

SAT, SOL and drop-out rates are pretty good proxies for the intensity of academic focus at the schools and within their home communities

the whole aim of this RD was to hide failure amongst certain sub-populations and increase average scores by infilling with higher performing sub-populations

Here is an article on another recent suit, by a group somewhat similar to CAPS, except they are FCPS students. The judge gives interesting reasons. I am sure this group also thought they would be successful.

http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6546427.html?nid=2413&rid=849308277

How is being in a class with kids that don't speak english a problem. Its not like the class is being taught in a different language. Students who speak no english are in ESOL almost all day long. They arent going to be in your children's academic classes, maybe PE. Your kids will be in honors courses their fresh and soph years (im assuming since you are trying to place out for AP) and by junior and senior year, the students with no support who do not want to be at school have dropped out so they will not be in your children's classes anyway. And some of you are considering pupil placing to Herndon for AP? You are going to have a much much bigger problem there than you would at SL. On that note, In my IB History class one of the smartest most engaged students was only in his third year of speaking english and was one of the most engaged, thought provoking students in the class. He went on to UVA. You people will never get it.

This whole issue is created by SBMs - instead of working towards a solution that is fair to all, they were busy pushing their personal ambitions. They sold out to Langley at the start. That in itself doomed the project - no solution could ever be acceptable when Langley was being protected by SBMs. The SB and the process is corrupt, and the result is total alienation of the community. It takes a lot of provocation to get parents of kintergardeners to contribute thousands of dollars for high school redistricting lawsuit. SBM arrogance and disregard for the law and fair process ensured that the legal pool is well funded. This will continue until we throw these SBMs out in the next election.

This CAPS suit has no similarity to one you mention below.

suit information Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is an article on another recent suit, by a
> group somewhat similar to CAPS, except they are
> FCPS students. The judge gives interesting
> reasons. I am sure this group also thought they
> would be successful.
>
> http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6546
> 427.html?nid=2413&rid=849308277

Yea, the turnitin suit had some merit.

kidding Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This CAPS suit has no similarity to one you
> mention below.
>
> suit information Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Here is an article on another recent suit, by a
> > group somewhat similar to CAPS, except they are
> > FCPS students. The judge gives interesting
> > reasons. I am sure this group also thought
> they
> > would be successful.
> >
> >
> http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6546
>
> > 427.html?nid=2413&rid=849308277

Not exactly, you're right. However they both feel/felt they will/would win. Both formed groups due to feeling their rights were violated in "educational or school board" practices.

Facts speak for themselves. All high performing schools ffx cnty have AP, all but one IB school is underperforming. If there are no AP classes the student cant take one in SL. Plain and simple. If you are interested in academics you have to pupil place to Herndon or Madison. Herndon is closer and easier commute than Madison. It does not matter whether there are non english speaking kids at Herndon, there are some at SL also. What matters is access to AP courses - the same courses that the high performing schools such as Langley, TJ has.
SL is hiding behind the smoke screen of race, class, poverty, etc. They do not have to courage to address the root cause of their problems - which is IB. Maybe they are afraid that if they raise their standards to AP level, their pass scores will go down further?

nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How is being in a class with kids that don't speak
> english a problem. Its not like the class is being
> taught in a different language. Students who speak
> no english are in ESOL almost all day long. They
> arent going to be in your children's academic
> classes, maybe PE. Your kids will be in honors
> courses their fresh and soph years (im assuming
> since you are trying to place out for AP) and by
> junior and senior year, the students with no
> support who do not want to be at school have
> dropped out so they will not be in your children's
> classes anyway. And some of you are considering
> pupil placing to Herndon for AP? You are going to
> have a much much bigger problem there than you
> would at SL. On that note, In my IB History class
> one of the smartest most engaged students was only
> in his third year of speaking english and was one
> of the most engaged, thought provoking students in
> the class. He went on to UVA. You people will
> never get it.

I asked this question some 20 pages ago and to my knowledge no one addressed it so I'll throw it out again, appologies if someone did address it and I didn't notice.

To what extent can AP exist in a IB school?

A friend of mine who lives in MD sends his daughter to Watkins Mill HS in Montgomery Co, which is an IB school similar to SL (actually, less desirable by most standards) in terms of enrollment, demographics and reputation. His daughter takes no IB classes, just AP and has been accepted at every college to which she has applied.

Here is a link to the schools course offerings, http://coldfusion.mcps.k12.md.us/coursebulletin/index.cfm?do=catalog&s=04545&c=top

nope to nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts speak for themselves. All high performing
> schools ffx cnty have AP, all but one IB school is
> underperforming. If there are no AP classes the
> student cant take one in SL. Plain and simple. If
> you are interested in academics you have to pupil
> place to Herndon or Madison. Herndon is closer and
> easier commute than Madison. It does not matter
> whether there are non english speaking kids at
> Herndon, there are some at SL also. What matters
> is access to AP courses - the same courses that
> the high performing schools such as Langley, TJ
> has.
> SL is hiding behind the smoke screen of race,
> class, poverty, etc. They do not have to courage
> to address the root cause of their problems -
> which is IB. Maybe they are afraid that if they
> raise their standards to AP level, their pass
> scores will go down further?
>
> nope Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How is being in a class with kids that don't
> speak
> > english a problem. Its not like the class is
> being
> > taught in a different language. Students who
> speak
> > no english are in ESOL almost all day long.
> They
> > arent going to be in your children's academic
> > classes, maybe PE. Your kids will be in honors
> > courses their fresh and soph years (im assuming
> > since you are trying to place out for AP) and
> by
> > junior and senior year, the students with no
> > support who do not want to be at school have
> > dropped out so they will not be in your
> children's
> > classes anyway. And some of you are considering
> > pupil placing to Herndon for AP? You are going
> to
> > have a much much bigger problem there than you
> > would at SL. On that note, In my IB History
> class
> > one of the smartest most engaged students was
> only
> > in his third year of speaking english and was
> one
> > of the most engaged, thought provoking students
> in
> > the class. He went on to UVA. You people will
> > never get it.


I was under the impression SL did well as an AP school before being switched to IB.

karaoke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is soooo great we don't see your #%TERE
> face....you sound to me like a Hoochie Mama and a
> SL groupie. You have no class. I bet you are a
> truly redneck.
> Keep up the good work....you don't have a job and
> truly enjoy the miseries of others. But, guess
> what? One day will be your turn and we ALL see
> for what you are: A LOSER!
> Have a "wonderful" day in Hell...and please don't
> come back...LOSER!!
> and Yes....we two deserve each other! I am the
> other side of your face
>
>
> UPSET Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sounds like I struck a nerve. I hope you are
> not
> > so sick that you need to go to the Stu Gibson
> > hospital for sick F__K up parents.
> >
> > Take a few heart burn pills, maybe twenty.
> >
> >
> > Less upset since UR Upset Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > UPSET Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Tired of the bull about South Lakes.
> > > >
> > > > These are the facts;
> > > >
> > > > South lakes has been a failed school, is a
> > > failed
> > > > school and will be a failed school.
> > > >
> > > > The reason for these failures is Stu Gibson
> > and
> > > > the school board mismanagement of this
> school
> > > for
> > > > a long time.
> > > >
> > > > They never fixed the problems with the
> > > programs,
> > > > rather they think that by RD they will
> bring
> > in
> > > > students who will fix the problems.
> > > >
> > > > Do not allow the RD to work. Pupil place
> out
> > of
> > > > SL, move or go to a private school.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dream on, loser. LLLLLLLOOOOOSSSSEEER. U
> make
> > me
> > > sick with your whining, malicious bullsh%$.
> > Your
> > > kids no doubt hate your guts and are
> > embarrassed
> > > by your dyspeptic moaning. STFU. You give
> me
> > > heartburn.



Your Stu-pid insults are as shallow as your insipid lawsuit, for which you paid a half-year's private school tuition. In mean time, SLHS seniors got into Brown, MIT, Princeton, UVA, etc, while you talk garbage about them...yes, them, because that is what 90% of antiSLHS talk is-- mean against children "baffled" about why adults hate and talk garbage about them. Ashamed you aren't but should be.

suit information Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is an article on another recent suit, by a
> group somewhat similar to CAPS, except they are
> FCPS students. The judge gives interesting
> reasons. I am sure this group also thought they
> would be successful.
>
> http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6546
> 427.html?nid=2413&rid=849308277

I can't imagine why you cite this case. The Turnitin case is nothing like the Caps lawsuit--except that the Plaintiffs are in FFX County.

Ubikwity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, I just read in this morning's paper about the
> CAPS suit against Fairfax County.
>
> We live in a *very* mixed neighborhood with homes
> well over a million dollars as well as more modest
> townhomes, and our kids will go to South Lakes. I
> know many, many kids who go there and their
> families are very happy. One student who attends
> is my niece who has lived all over the world and
> has attended the best private schools money can
> buy. She can afford to go to any private school
> in the area or even the entire U.S., but her
> family sends her to South Lakes and they are very
> happy there. She is a polite, well-spoken, nice,
> and smart girl. The rumors of gangs and violence
> are just silly, and the teachers are dedicated and
> highly qualified. I will happily send my kids
> there.
>
> It's been my opinion that people who don't want
> their kids to go to SL are either racist, elitist,
> or had not examined the issue with a clear head,
> to be nice about it. Now, I see they are hoping
> to take MY tax money by winning a law suit against
> the County so they can send their precious flowers
> to a private school where they won't have to rub
> elbows with someone who doesn't speak English well
> (ICK!) or gets a discounted lunch (YUCK!) or may
> have darker skin (TERRIBLE!). How disgraceful.
> Your poor kids...

GET REAL

Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: UPSET (IP Logged)
Date: April 01, 2008 06:20AM


Tired of the bull about South Lakes.

These are the facts;

South lakes has been a failed school, is a failed school and will be a failed school.

The reason for these failures is Stu Gibson and the school board mismanagement of this school for a long time.

They never fixed the problems with the programs, rather they think that by RD they will bring in students who will fix the problems.

Do not allow the RD to work. Pupil place out of SL, move or go to a private school.

nope to nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts speak for themselves. All high performing
> schools ffx cnty have AP, all but one IB school is
> underperforming. If there are no AP classes the
> student cant take one in SL. Plain and simple. If
> you are interested in academics you have to pupil
> place to Herndon or Madison. Herndon is closer and
> easier commute than Madison. It does not matter
> whether there are non english speaking kids at
> Herndon, there are some at SL also. What matters
> is access to AP courses - the same courses that
> the high performing schools such as Langley, TJ
> has.
> SL is hiding behind the smoke screen of race,
> class, poverty, etc. They do not have to courage
> to address the root cause of their problems -
> which is IB. Maybe they are afraid that if they
> raise their standards to AP level, their pass
> scores will go down further?
>
> nope Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How is being in a class with kids that don't
> speak
> > english a problem. Its not like the class is
> being
> > taught in a different language. Students who
> speak
> > no english are in ESOL almost all day long.
> They
> > arent going to be in your children's academic
> > classes, maybe PE. Your kids will be in honors
> > courses their fresh and soph years (im assuming
> > since you are trying to place out for AP) and
> by
> > junior and senior year, the students with no
> > support who do not want to be at school have
> > dropped out so they will not be in your
> children's
> > classes anyway. And some of you are considering
> > pupil placing to Herndon for AP? You are going
> to
> > have a much much bigger problem there than you
> > would at SL. On that note, In my IB History
> class
> > one of the smartest most engaged students was
> only
> > in his third year of speaking english and was
> one
> > of the most engaged, thought provoking students
> in
> > the class. He went on to UVA. You people will
> > never get it.


Nope, don't rise to the bait. There are a few ugly people out there--but even those who sound the ugliest are just trying to be shocking on this anonymous forum. The issues folks have with the RD are not racial. (I can't say it enough times: IT'S ABOUT THE SCHOOL BOARD!!) If you've been to any of the welcoming events at SL for "new" students, I'm sure you'll agree the kids being RD'd are nice kids who don't have any issues with the make-up of the school.

You took the words right out of my mouth! Unfortunately, no matter how many times it is repeated, people will continue to claim that it is the unfair process!








nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mr. e,
>
> The lower test scores have been addressed many
> many times. If you took the socioeconomic
> representative make-up of Oakton or Westfield from
> SL, you would find that the average score at SL
> would be the same, if not higher, than those at
> Oakton and Westfield. Yes, the lower preforming
> students absolutely need to be addressed. But your
> lower test scores argument does not fly when it
> comes to sending your child to South Lakes. As you
> have said many many times, you are a very middle
> class area. Your children will excell at South
> Lakes. Sorry to break it to you but race is an
> issue everywhere, not just PW county. The level of
> overtness/awareness is what differs. Maybe racism
> is not the correct term in this case. Classism,
> which is equally as bad, might be a better term.

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I asked this question some 20 pages ago and to my
> knowledge no one addressed it so I'll throw it out
> again, appologies if someone did address it and I
> didn't notice.
>
> To what extent can AP exist in a IB school?
>
> A friend of mine who lives in MD sends his
> daughter to Watkins Mill HS in Montgomery Co,
> which is an IB school similar to SL (actually,
> less desirable by most standards) in terms of
> enrollment, demographics and reputation. His
> daughter takes no IB classes, just AP and has been
> accepted at every college to which she has
> applied.
>
> Here is a link to the schools course offerings,
> http://coldfusion.mcps.k12.md.us/coursebulletin/in
> dex.cfm?do=catalog&s=04545&c=top


I think you have to have a very large school population to have both. Even Robinson, which is a very large school, only has IB and not AP. I have a friend who lives in Plano, Texas and her kids can take Honors, AP or IB. But, her son has 1200 kids in his graduating class. (And the kids go to High school-grades 9 and 10) and then Senior HS-grades 11-12.)

The SB and Tisdadt was completely unfair when they suggested that Navy go to Oakton. Again...........it not only triples our children's commute but also doubles transportation costs and negative impact on traffic. They completely violated the proximity issue for us.

Ubikwity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, right... it's all about "fairness." Please.

AFMD Wrote:
> To what extent can AP exist in a IB school?
---------
This has been discussed many times. The general rule in FCPS is that no AP class is offered if a "similar" IB course is available.

With its large class sizes, an FCPS high school can only be AP or IB. For example, it is hard enough to populate IB French SL AND IB French HL - there just are not enough French students to justify offering AP French as well.

Even huge Robinson offers only about a half dozen AP courses, none of them in any AP science or foreign language, and not enough to be called an "AP high school."

It has been proposed that ALL FCPS high schools revert to full AP and offer at least AP World Civ, AP US History, and AP Government; AP English Comp and AP English Lit; AP Calculus AB and AP Calculus BC; at least two AP sciences; and at least two AP foreign languages.

Since FCPS is so strongly opposed to establishing additional magnet schools, an IB Academy or two could be established for those for whom the FULL IB DIPLOMA is a good fit. By assembling many full IB Diploma Candidates together, a more broad set of IB courses could be offered. These Full IB Diploma Candidates would attend the IB Academy for five IB courses in both junior and senior years, and then return to their base high school for electives, for standardized testing, and for extracurricular activities. This is the model used at the Lamar IB Academy in McMillan Texas, a school lauded on the IBO web site.

FM mom and Forum Reader,

I'm fully aware of the conventional wisdom as applied to this thread (ie- large schools such as Robinson can't support both, etc, etc). That's why I mention Watkins Mill because it apears to contradict it.

Watkins Mill has an enrollment of 1,700, is racially split (approx 1/3 white, 1/3 black & 1/3 hispanic) has 25% FRM and has the course offerings listed in my above post. So how is a school like this able to offer the AP & IB classes they do?

Also, the school rates about the same as SL.

http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/md/other/1018

AFMD Wrote:
> FM mom and Forum Reader,
>
> I'm fully aware of the conventional wisdom as
> applied to this thread (ie- large schools such as
> Robinson can't support both, etc, etc). That's
> why I mention Watkins Mill because it apears to
> contradict it.
>
> Watkins Mill has an enrollment of 1,700, is
> racially split (approx 1/3 white, 1/3 black & 1/3
> hispanic) has 25% FRM and has the course offerings
> listed in my above post. So how is a school like
> this able to offer the AP & IB classes they do?
>
You asked why AP and IB are not in the same school in FCPS; the answer is it more economic to offer (and far easier to schedule) only one or the other.

I don't know why you are asking me to explain a school in a different state. Nor do I know why you think race has anything to do with it. Be that as it may be, a quick bit of research reveals Watkins Mill HS "Average Class Size" is 23.7 (23.1 in English classes) and their Student/Instructional Staff Ratio is only 10.2.

AFMD -

Offering a complete curriculum in both AP and IB is simply against the rules in Fairfax. Since IB was added in the late 90s, the primary advanced curriculum at a FCPS HS can only be one or the other. If the HS is an IB school, the HS may offer a few AP classes in disciplines outside the standard IB offerings.

There is rationale for the rule - the essential problem is that AP and IB (especially HL) classes simply aren't for everyone. There's only so many kids capable of taking (or are at least willing to take) the highest level classes. Combine that with the fact that the the number of kids per teacher in FX HSes is around 30. The schools can't afford to have very many classes below 20 kids or they can't hit the required average.

Consider the number of kids taking either HL Math or Calculus BC or Multivariate Calc or the number of kids taking foreign language AP or IB classes. If you assume that 20% of the kids are going to take a foreign language IB/AP class & 4 languages are offered, that's 8 classes. Take 400 kids * .2 = 80 kids or 10 kids per class. That's 8 classes that would have to be made up with corresponding classes larger than 30 to make the average.

Even at Westfield with 3100 kids and just AP, they end up not canceling some of the highest level classes because there aren't enough kids signed up.


AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FM mom and Forum Reader,
>
> I'm fully aware of the conventional wisdom as
> applied to this thread (ie- large schools such as
> Robinson can't support both, etc, etc). That's
> why I mention Watkins Mill because it apears to
> contradict it.
>
> Watkins Mill has an enrollment of 1,700, is
> racially split (approx 1/3 white, 1/3 black & 1/3
> hispanic) has 25% FRM and has the course offerings
> listed in my above post. So how is a school like
> this able to offer the AP & IB classes they do?
>
> Also, the school rates about the same as SL.
>
> http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/md/other/1018

By when could the court rule on the injunction? Any one has ideas on the time frame. I bet "Decider" Gibson will play the delay game here to drag this until CAPS runs out of money. Even if CAPS wins, Gibson will appeal to the next level of courts, all the way till the supreme court. The SB has almost limitless funds. Their budget is in the range of a billion dollars a year, so they can hire a lot of lawyers. What could be CAPS gameplan?

I read or heard in one of the news reports that the SB had 3 weeks to respond to the suit, whatever that means. I don't think the county would be willing to pay the bill to take it that far.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> You asked why AP and IB are not in the same school
> in FCPS; the answer is it more economic to offer
> (and far easier to schedule) only one or the
> other.
>
> I don't know why you are asking me to explain a
> school in a different state. Nor do I know why you
> think race has anything to do with it. Be that as
> it may be, a quick bit of research reveals Watkins
> Mill HS "Average Class Size" is 23.7 (23.1 in
> English classes) and their Student/Instructional
> Staff Ratio is only 10.2.


It is a different school in a different state but it is in the same region and the county (MC), school system (MCPS) and school (WM) are as close a comparison as is possible to Fx, FCPS and SL (hence the racial data similarity). MC residents do pay higher taxes so I suppose it's possible that this is how they are able to afford both but you would think they would still have problems filling seats for all their IB and AP classes with such a small college-bound student body.

WD, so the rule against having both AP and IB is a FCPS rule, not dictated by AP or IB?

AFMD Wrote:
> ... so the rule against having both AP and IB is a
> FCPS rule, not dictated by AP or IB?

-------
Any school may teach as many AP courses as desired.

IB is different. "Only students enrolled in an IB World School may participate in an IB programme." IB schools operate under lots of IBO rules. The focus is the IB Diploma. "Schools must ensure that the Diploma Programme is properly funded, is effectively delivered and is administered according to the regulations and procedures of the IB Organization. Each school must appoint a Diploma Programme coordinator to administer the programme and give him or her the opportunity to attend training workshops that have been approved by the IB Organization."

-------------

IB will offer a couple on-line IB courses this fall, "Economics standard level (SL) and Information Technology in a Global Society (ITGS) higher level (HL). Both courses will be taught over two years. ... Tuition for each course is $1900 for the two years, payable upon enrollment."

"FCPS Online Campus Courses" are much less expensive. "As long as the courses taken do not exceed the standard course complement for the district (7 courses per semester for high school students) there is no charge for FCPS students during the normal school year . However, if a FCPS student exceeds the course complement (for example a high school student already taking 7 courses at a local high school decides to add an online campus course), a fee of $270 per semester course or, $540 per year-long course will be applied."

"FCPS Online Campus Courses" include:
* AP English Language Composition
* AP English Literature Composition
* AP French Language
* AP French Literature
* AP Spanish Language
* AP Calculus AB
* AP Statistics
* AP Biology
* AP Chemistry
* AP Physics B
* AP Macroeconomics
* AP Microeconomics
* AP Psychology
* AP US Government & Politics
* AP US History

AFMD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> WD, so the rule against having both AP and IB is a
> FCPS rule, not dictated by AP or IB?

Yes. As far as I know, FCPS is the only large school district with area-based schools that only offers one or the other at the local school. Most districts that have IB offer it as a magnet. Sometimes the magnet also is in a school with both AP and IB (e.g. Richard Montgomery in MC).

how much time Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By when could the court rule on the injunction?

There will be no injunction. CAPS would have to show a strong likelihood of prevailing on the merits and irreparable harm to the plaintiffs if the injunction isn't granted with no harm to the SB if the injunction is granted. CAPS cannot prevail on any of those 3 questions. Thus, no injunction.

The SB will file a demurrer within 21 days of being served with the suit. If CAPS attorney uses a private process server, the SB could be served next week.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 11:14PM by Thomas More.

So you mean nothing will happen until 1 week + 21 days?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how much time Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > By when could the court rule on the injunction?
>
> There will be no injunction. CAPS would have to
> show a strong likelihood of prevailing on the
> merits and irreparable harm to the plaintiffs if
> the injunction isn't granted with no harm to the
> SB if the injunction is granted. CAPS cannot
> prevail on any of those 3 questions. Thus, no
> injunction.
>
> The SB will file a demurrer within 21 days of
> being served with the suit. If CAPS attorney uses
> a private process server, the SB could be served
> next week.

how much time Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By when could the court rule on the injunction?
> Any one has ideas on the time frame. I bet
> "Decider" Gibson will play the delay game here to
> drag this until CAPS runs out of money. Even if
> CAPS wins, Gibson will appeal to the next level of
> courts, all the way till the supreme court. The SB
> has almost limitless funds. Their budget is in the
> range of a billion dollars a year, so they can
> hire a lot of lawyers. What could be CAPS
> gameplan?


Billions of dollars? are you kidding? Can you imagine Gibson even trying to take this to the SC? He's arrogant enough, but, again, he doesn't have unlimited funds. And, the court of public opinion won't like the dollars they are spending/wasting. The timeframe is anybody's guess. Gibson can try to delay, but even he can only do it for so long.

nope to nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts speak for themselves. All high performing
> schools ffx cnty have AP, all but one IB school is
> underperforming. If there are no AP classes the
> student cant take one in SL. Plain and simple. If
> you are interested in academics you have to pupil
> place to Herndon or Madison. Herndon is closer and
> easier commute than Madison. It does not matter
> whether there are non english speaking kids at
> Herndon, there are some at SL also. What matters
> is access to AP courses - the same courses that
> the high performing schools such as Langley, TJ
> has.
> SL is hiding behind the smoke screen of race,
> class, poverty, etc. They do not have to courage
> to address the root cause of their problems -
> which is IB. Maybe they are afraid that if they
> raise their standards to AP level, their pass
> scores will go down further?
>
VERY interesting point. There is obvious grade inflation in IB schools. That would be difficult to duplicate in an AP school.

FM mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how much time Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > By when could the court rule on the injunction?
> > Any one has ideas on the time frame. I bet
> > "Decider" Gibson will play the delay game here
> to
> > drag this until CAPS runs out of money. Even if
> > CAPS wins, Gibson will appeal to the next level
> of
> > courts, all the way till the supreme court. The
> SB
> > has almost limitless funds. Their budget is in
> the
> > range of a billion dollars a year, so they can
> > hire a lot of lawyers. What could be CAPS
> > gameplan?
>
>
> Billions of dollars? are you kidding? Can you
> imagine Gibson even trying to take this to the SC?
> He's arrogant enough, but, again, he doesn't have
> unlimited funds. And, the court of public opinion
> won't like the dollars they are spending/wasting.
> The timeframe is anybody's guess. Gibson can try
> to delay, but even he can only do it for so long.

The school board budget is over TWO billion dollars. They'll find a few spare million to defend their boy Stu.

how much time Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you mean nothing will happen until 1 week + 21 days?

Approximately. If they use the sheriff's office to serve the SB, it could take longer.

Westfield Dad is correct, to my knowledge. I'll add that when checking the web sites of a multitude of non-FCPS high schools with IB programs, the overwhelming majority offered a good number of AP courses, including the meat and potatoes courses. That includes AP Calculus BC, which some IB schools seem to view as complementary to IB HL Math.

This is just a FCPS rule. It doesn't have to be this way. And one way that other high schools seem to deal with the issue described by Westfield Dad (limited number of kids for IB HL or AP courses) is to provide fewer IB choices. I've read posts on www.collegeconfidential.com about how some IB high schools only offered, for example, one IB HL science class, and just enough SL electives so the IB Diploma kids could get their IB diplomas. Then the school could offer AP courses in the other sciences and in a wider range of AP non-science courses.

Forum Reader keeps talking about how this would be too expensive. I don't think she's done a complete analysis of this issue. FCPS does not allocate the same dollars per pupil to every school, even after taking into account the extra costs for special ed students. The School Board commissioned a report about 5-7 years ago about how to save money. The consultants started by figuring out how much FCPS was spending in each school. Their preliminary report showed major disparities within FCPS. Kids in some schools were getting a $7,000/year education, while kids in others were getting a $12,000/year education. In general, per pupil costs were higher for schools in less affluent areas with lower average test scores.

This consultant was promptly fired, and the preliminary report buried in the bowels of the vast FCPS bureaucracy. Everything I've read since then suggests that if anything, FCPS has continued to allocate resources very unevenly. It's possible that the current per-pupil cost at South Lakes is already higher than the per-pupil cost for IB schools in other school districts, even after taking into account special ed costs.

If that's true, then it really is FCPS intransigence that's causing this problem.



WestfieldDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > WD, so the rule against having both AP and IB is
> a
> > FCPS rule, not dictated by AP or IB?
>
> Yes. As far as I know, FCPS is the only large
> school district with area-based schools that only
> offers one or the other at the local school. Most
> districts that have IB offer it as a magnet.
> Sometimes the magnet also is in a school with both
> AP and IB (e.g. Richard Montgomery in MC).

After reading page after page of this site, I have come to the conclusion that most students and parents do not want to be RD into South Lakes. Their reasons are, no full AP courses and they do not want IB for their children.
Therefore, since this school is under capacity by almost 1000 students, I suggest that the school should be closed and these students moved to all surrounding schools.
The building could be used by the FCPS as their western fairfax county administration building and they could save the 100 million dollars that they want to spend on gatehouse 2.
FCPS should look at all schools that are having major under capacity issues and they should combine schools and close others.This would save millions of dollars.

nope to nope Wrote:
> Facts speak for themselves. ... Herndon is closer and
> easier commute than Madison.

==========
One more fact: Check Mapquest. South Lakes is closer to Madison than to Herndon.

Therefore any student who wants AP and who lives within the old OR new South Lakes boundaries may request pupil placement to Madison.

(Ease of commute will vary for each student.)

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> VERY interesting point. There is obvious grade
> inflation in IB schools. That would be difficult
> to duplicate in an AP school.

Your statement is completely erroneous and not based on anything.
I know teachers in both IB and AP schools. Grade inflation is more rampant in AP schools due to more parental pressure on the whole within AP schools.

SOLUTION Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After reading page after page of this site, I have
> come to the conclusion that most students and
> parents do not want to be RD into South Lakes.
> Their reasons are, no full AP courses and they do
> not want IB for their children.
> Therefore, since this school is under capacity by
> almost 1000 students, I suggest that the school
> should be closed and these students moved to all
> surrounding schools.
> The building could be used by the FCPS as their
> western fairfax county administration building and
> they could save the 100 million dollars that they
> want to spend on gatehouse 2.
> FCPS should look at all schools that are having
> major under capacity issues and they should
> combine schools and close others.This would save
> millions of dollars.

I LIKE THIS IDEA. LETS SEE IF THE SLPTA WOULD LIKE TO BE REDISTRICTED AND LETS CLOSE ONE OF STU GIBSON PET SCHOOLS. IT COSTS MORE MONEY PER STUDENT TO RUN ANYWAY AND IT WILL SAVE MONEY FOR FCPS.

APorIBMom Wrote:
> ... one way that other high schools
> seem to deal with the issue described by Westfield
> Dad (limited number of kids for IB HL or AP
> courses) is to provide fewer IB choices. I've
> read posts on www.collegeconfidential.com about
> how some IB high schools only offered, for
> example, one IB HL science class, and just enough
> SL electives so the IB Diploma kids could get
> their IB diplomas. Then the school could offer AP
> courses in the other sciences and in a wider range
> of AP non-science courses.
>
> Forum Reader keeps talking about how this would be
> too expensive. ...
------------------
There is a big cost per school just to have IB, including the cost of a full time IB coordinator at each IB high school and supplemental staffing at the IB middle schools.

Savings begin with reducing the International Baccalaureate Program from thirteen Middle and High Schools to just a couple HS Academies.

Savings increase when "certificate only" IB students instead take AP courses. Remember FCPS pays $74 for one AP exam but "The cost for a student who takes only one IB exam is $207." (FY 2009 budget question #4.)

Now provide a BENEFIT for FULL IB Diploma Candidates by establishing an IB Academy or two. These full IB Diploma Candidates would attend the IB Academy for five IB courses in both junior and senior years (three 2-year HL courses, three one-year SL courses, and Theory of Knowledge), and then return to their base high school for electives, for standardized testing, and for extracurricular activities. By assembling the full IB Diploma Candidates at one or two sites, MORE IB courses could be offered instead of less, as you propose.

SOLUTION Wrote:
> ... I suggest that the school should be
> closed and these students moved to all
> surrounding schools....FCPS should look at
> all schools that are having major under
> capacity issues and they should combine
> schools and close others.This would save
> millions of dollars.

---------
There is a shortage of elementary school space. It makes more sense to convert the largest high schools to secondary schools with the 2,000 HS capacity FCPS suddenly endorses (range of 1650-2350 is doable) and convert smaller, "excess" middle schools to elementary schools.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
<snip>
> Sadly, I just finished reading the CAPS lawsuit
> and it's really pathetic. Hopefully, they weren't
> charged more than $2,500 for this effort.

> This complaint is an embarrassment to the legal
> profession.
<snip>

Indeed. The Arbitrary and Capricious count boils down to "We don't like it". That's not even worth the court's time.

The Dillon's Rule count appears to have some vague merit -- but all the SB has to say is "The real goal was to solve overcrowding" and it's done.

I wish I could see it otherwise; of course, we all know courts can themselves seem arbitrary and capricious, so who knows what will happen, but it's difficult to imagine this prevailing.

Actually, by moving the Navy students, it did not bring Chantilly to capacity for the supposed overcrowding and with all of the pupil placements taking place, they will have had reduced the number by maybe 50 students.


>
> The Dillon's Rule count appears to have some vague
> merit -- but all the SB has to say is "The real
> goal was to solve overcrowding" and it's done.
>
> I wish I could see it otherwise; of course, we all
> know courts can themselves seem arbitrary and
> capricious, so who knows what will happen, but
> it's difficult to imagine this prevailing.

nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, by moving the Navy students, it did not
> bring Chantilly to capacity for the supposed
> overcrowding and with all of the pupil placements
> taking place, they will have had reduced the
> number by maybe 50 students.

Alas, that's irrelevant to the merits (or lack thereof) of the lawsuit.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield Dad is correct, to my knowledge. I'll
> add that when checking the web sites of a
> multitude of non-FCPS high schools with IB
> programs, the overwhelming majority offered a good
> number of AP courses, including the meat and
> potatoes courses. That includes AP Calculus BC,
> which some IB schools seem to view as
> complementary to IB HL Math.
>
> This is just a FCPS rule. It doesn't have to be
> this way. And one way that other high schools
> seem to deal with the issue described by Westfield
> Dad (limited number of kids for IB HL or AP
> courses) is to provide fewer IB choices. I've
> read posts on www.collegeconfidential.com about
> how some IB high schools only offered, for
> example, one IB HL science class, and just enough
> SL electives so the IB Diploma kids could get
> their IB diplomas. Then the school could offer AP
> courses in the other sciences and in a wider range
> of AP non-science courses.
>

That would appear to be the course of action worth taking a close look at w/SL. If, as is often cited here, the IB diploma program is suitable for only 5-8% of students, scale IB class offerings down to levels suitable to meet those students needs and supplement the rest w/AP classes, including most meat & potatoes courses. I guess we'll see if that compromise gets any traction.

IN A BANDWIDTH SAVING EFFORT, I WILL PROVIDE THE PREDICTABLE REPLY TO MY OWN POST BELOW:

That notion will never fly with the left loving socialist agenda of Stuy and his Ilk. Why I happen to know for a fact that every morning after ole Stuy boy finishes his morning esspresso and logs off of DailyKos, he contemplates how he can reduce if not eliminate parent choice in their childrens education and push the internationalist IB agenda over the tried and true American AP program into more FC schools ;)

"The Dillon's Rule count appears to have some vague merit -- but all the SB has to say is "The real goal was to solve overcrowding" and it's done. "

Didn't Dean Tisdt said CHS and WFH are not overcrowded?

AFMD Wrote:
> That would appear to be the course of action worth
> taking a close look at w/SL. If, as is often
> cited here, the IB diploma program is suitable for
> only 5-8% of students, scale IB class offerings
> down to levels suitable to meet those students
> needs and supplement the rest w/AP classes,
> including most meat & potatoes courses. I guess
> we'll see if that compromise gets any traction.

-----------
That would be OK as long as in this era of budget cuts SL is willing to downsize its staff to the level found in other schools of its size, not counting extra staffing for Special Ed.

APorIBMom mentioned above a "report showed major disparities within FCPS. Kids in some schools were getting a $7,000/year education, while kids in others were getting a $12,000/year education." Does anyone have a copy of that report? Where does SLHS rate in comparison to Oakton, Madison, Herdon, etc?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APorIBMom Wrote:
> > ... one way that other high schools
> > seem to deal with the issue described by
> Westfield
> > Dad (limited number of kids for IB HL or AP
> > courses) is to provide fewer IB choices. I've
> > read posts on www.collegeconfidential.com about
> > how some IB high schools only offered, for
> > example, one IB HL science class, and just
> enough
> > SL electives so the IB Diploma kids could get
> > their IB diplomas. Then the school could offer
> AP
> > courses in the other sciences and in a wider
> range
> > of AP non-science courses.
> >
> > Forum Reader keeps talking about how this would
> be
> > too expensive. ...
> ------------------
> There is a big cost per school just to have IB,
> including the cost of a full time IB coordinator
> at each IB high school and supplemental staffing
> at the IB middle schools.
>
> Savings begin with reducing the International
> Baccalaureate Program from thirteen Middle and
> High Schools to just a couple HS Academies.
>
> Savings increase when "certificate only" IB
> students instead take AP courses. Remember FCPS
> pays $74 for one AP exam but "The cost for a
> student who takes only one IB exam is $207." (FY
> 2009 budget question #4.)


>
> Now provide a BENEFIT for FULL IB Diploma
> Candidates by establishing an IB Academy or two.
> These full IB Diploma Candidates would attend the
> IB Academy for five IB courses in both junior and
> senior years (three 2-year HL courses, three
> one-year SL courses, and Theory of Knowledge), and
> then return to their base high school for
> electives, for standardized testing, and for
> extracurricular activities. By assembling the full
> IB Diploma Candidates at one or two sites, MORE IB
> courses could be offered instead of less, as you
> propose.

Give it a rest, FR. We all know you don't even have a kid involved in this. And we all know you hate IB every which way and are totally biased (unlike IB supporters, who see plenty of merit with AP, despite its serious flaws), which is why you continue to spout untruths about it.

Example: There are no "full time IB coordinators." They are all teachers who ADD IB coordination to their tasks, just as other teachers take on other major commitments apart from teaching responsibilities. Example: "IB benfits 5-7%." That's BS. Again, the "AP diploma" benefits a mere tiny percentage, too. IB courses are separate courses, just like AP courses, taken by a large percentage of the student bodies, just as AP courses are. In point of fact, the IB program benefits ALL kids since all teachers are trained for it, even if they don't teach those courses, and since they coordinate and cooperate through the year.

IB standards are kept high, unlike AP standards. The only way schools know that their teachers are teaching AP to the appropriate standards is whether kids pass the tests after the fact. With IB, teachers are evaluated all year long by objective measures through internal and external assessments. Kids don't have to cram for IB tests because the material covered in tests is material they learn, review, and are tested on all year long.

I think you hate IB because you know your kids could never hack the diploma, which is all your limited brain can process about it. I think you may have had some run-in with IB in the past and are chewing sour grapes into a pulp about it. I'll bet you're pushing loads of watered-down AP courses on your poor kids so you can crow about them when they get into college. But God help your kids once they get there.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how much time Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > By when could the court rule on the injunction?
>
> There will be no injunction. CAPS would have to
> show a strong likelihood of prevailing on the
> merits and irreparable harm to the plaintiffs if
> the injunction isn't granted with no harm to the
> SB if the injunction is granted. CAPS cannot
> prevail on any of those 3 questions. Thus, no
> injunction.
>
> The SB will file a demurrer within 21 days of
> being served with the suit. If CAPS attorney uses
> a private process server, the SB could be served
> next week.


A demurrer suggests there is absolutely no merit to this case. Certainly the SB's law firm can file one, but it unlikely to bear fruit. While Caps may not win, there is certainly merit to this case. (For those who don't know, an example of a (successful) demurrer might be if your neighbor parks on the street in front of your house and you don't like it and you file a suit to make them move their car. Obviously, there is no merit to your case.)

SoapOperaFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > APorIBMom Wrote:
> > > ... one way that other high schools
> > >
> ...Example: There are no "full time IB coordinators."
> They are all teachers who ADD IB coordination to
> their tasks, just as other teachers take on other
> major commitments apart from teaching
> responsibilities. ...

How many class periods do they teach?

NOPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Dillon's Rule count appears to have some
> vague merit -- but all the SB has to say is "The
> real goal was to solve overcrowding" and it's
> done. "
>
> Didn't Dean Tisdt said CHS and WFH are not
> overcrowded?


Yes, Tisdadt is on the record for saying that these schools are not overcrowded, and the capacity issues will be further reduced in the coming years.

SoapOperaFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > APorIBMom Wrote:
> > > ...> The only way schools know that their teachers are
> teaching AP to the appropriate standards is
> whether kids pass the tests after the fact. With
> IB, teachers are evaluated all year long by
> objective measures through internal and external
> assessments. Kids don't have to cram for IB tests
> because the material covered in tests is material
> they learn, review, and are tested on all year
> long...
>

If a contract with the IBO means a transfer of the Instructional services function of a Virginia school division for any classroom to an outside entity then public hearings are required. Is this the case with IB HL? FCPS has no control over the actual instruction but does run the human resource function:

"8. Obtain public comment through a public hearing not less than 10 days after reasonable notice to the public in a newspaper of general circulation in the school division prior to providing (i) for the consolidation of schools; (ii) the transfer from the public school system of the administration of all instructional services for any public school classroom or all noninstructional services in the school division pursuant to a contract with any private entity or organization;"

That issue of IB v AP might be larger than it seems.