Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> > Clearly you are operating under the assumption
> > that IB will not help your child get INTO
> college,
> > when in fact most universities love the IB
> > program. ... I have advocated with FCPS for
> > years to use their clout with Universities for
> > equal credit ... If FCPS cannot lobby for equal
> credit, I
> > have advocated for supplementing IB with AP
> > courses or chucking IB altogether. If the
> County
> > won't stand behind it, it should be eliminated.
> ...
>
> -------------
> Close but not quite accurate. Competitive colleges
> look for students doing well in the most rigorous
> courses available to them. Such universities
> therefore do appreciate students who are on track
> for the FULL IB Diploma - but the majority of
> students in IB high schools take themselves off
> that track by NOT being IB Diploma Candidates.
>
> Do you really think FCPS has much "clout" with ANY
> college or university? Why? They don't need our
> graduates - they have plenty of other applicants.


Lets say there are two students at two different schools, one AP and the other IB. They both have identical GPAs and SAT scores and both take a few AP or IB equivalent courses and they both want to get into a good college but not necessarily Ivy caliber schools.

Are you saying that the AP student is more likely to get INTO (as oppposed to credit for) a good college than the IB student even though they maintained the same workload and results simply because the IB student didn't get the IB diploma? That would seem to discrimine against IB schools as the workload is the same for both students. If this is true, are you able to support it in any way? Stating school admissions policies is kind of like saying speed limits are 55 or 65, it doesn't necessarily reflect the reality on the ground.

On another but related matter, I spoke with someone I know with a HS age kid at Watkins Mill HS in Montgomery Co. This HS is very similar to SL in terms of reputation and only slightly larger in enrollment (1,700). He has his kid in what he described as "full AP" classes even though this is a IB school (no mention of AP on website). In a quick glance at their course offerings, the only IB class that I saw without a AP equivalent was Physics.

Anyone have any familarity with this situation or others where AP attempts to coexist w/IB in other public schools. As others have stated, I don't think SL will get rid of IB, certainly not in the next 5 years and probably ever. While ideology may be a factor I suspect the real reason is that the SB doesn't want to admit just yet that their investment in IB at SL has been money wasted.

pupil_place Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I remember right, last year 40 + students pupil
> placed into SL for IB and 40 + pupil placed out of
> SL for AP. So it was a wash.
>
-----------
In 07-08, OUT of South Lakes:
53 - ESOL
24 - Admin Placement
57 - Parent Request
19 - Special Ed Program
53 - Attending TJ
206 - Total

In 07-08, students assigned INTO South Lakes:
7 - Admin Placement
7 - Parent Request
39 - Special Ed Program
47 - Total

---------------------
The following numbers do not match up with the above numbers (they do not include ESOL or Special Ed), but both sets of data are from FCPS:

From South Lakes to Westfield:10
From South Lakes to Herndon:18
From South Lakes to Langley:10
From South Lakes to McLean: 6
From South Lakes to Madison: 20
From South Lakes to Marshall: 1
From South Lakes to Jefferson: 53
From South Lakes to Lake Braddock: 1
From South Lakes to Chantilly: 3
From South Lakes to Fairfax: 1
From South Lakes to Oakton: 13
Total FROM South Lakes: 136

TO South Lakes:
2 - Adjustment
42 - IB Program
1 - Health/Medical
2 - Employee
3 - Senior
50-total

Several will go to private schools and those stats will not show as pupil placement

pupil_place Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I remember right, last year 40 + students pupil
> placed into SL for IB and 40 + pupil placed out of
> SL for AP. So it was a wash.
>
> The preliminary indications are 100 + last years
> 40 (assuming there is no change in Reston numbers)
> will pupil place out for AP from SL this year.
>
> How does that look on paper? Will that create a
> bad impression in parent's mind?
>
> Just curious.

No can can know for sure whether all other things being equal which program AP or IB will carry weight. What is known for sure there is no grey area for AP that is recognized all across US. What is also known for a fact that there are arguments and doubts about IB. As a parent you have to do the best for your child - gamble on IB with no positive again over AP, or just go with proven AP. I think it is a no-brainer for AP, unless you want to move to UK or France


AFMD Wrote:

>
> Lets say there are two students at two different
> schools, one AP and the other IB. They both have
> identical GPAs and SAT scores and both take a few
> AP or IB equivalent courses and they both want to
> get into a good college but not necessarily Ivy
> caliber schools.
>
> Are you saying that the AP student is more likely
> to get INTO (as oppposed to credit for) a good
> college than the IB student even though they
> maintained the same workload and results simply
> because the IB student didn't get the IB diploma?
> That would seem to discrimine against IB schools
> as the workload is the same for both students. If
> this is true, are you able to support it in any
> way? Stating school admissions policies is kind
> of like saying speed limits are 55 or 65, it
> doesn't necessarily reflect the reality on the
> ground.
>

Oakton, Madison, and Westfield are now OPEN to pupil placement; Chantilly is CLOSED:

http://www.fcps.edu/news/PupilPlacement%20Guidelines2008-09.pdf

"Fairfax County Public Schools
2008-2009 Pupil Placement Summary

Current FCPS policy and practices will be followed regarding exceptions to the boundary adjustments approved by the School Board on February 28, 2008.

Grandfathering Students (transportation provided for grandfathered period only)
Students who are in their final year of elementary and middle school have the option to remain in the school they attended prior to the boundary change. All high school students currently enrolled have the option of remaining at the school they attended before the boundary change. Principals at the schools affected by the boundary changes will survey parents regarding their desire to remain at their current school or attend their newly assigned school.

Siblings Building principals continue to have limited flexibility in allowing pupil placements for unusual cases of hardship. Pupil placement for siblings must be initiated with the principal of the base school. Typically, requests for pupil placement of siblings to schools that are at or above capacity are denied. ...

Following the February 28, 2008, School Board boundary revisions, the list of schools in the affected area now open/closed to student transfers is as follows:

Open to Pupil Placements:
Forestdale ES
Sunrise Valley ES
Hughes Middle
Madison High
Oakton High
South Lakes High
Westfield High

Closed to Pupil Placements:
Springfield Estates Elementary
Wolftrap Elementary
Thoreau Middle
Chantilly High

The annual revision of the list of schools closed to student transfer for 2008-09 will be posted by June 1, 2008. High school students who prefer the International Baccalaureate (IB) or Advanced Placement (AP) program not offered at their base school may request pupil placement. This transfer request must be made for the school closest to the student’s residence or closest to the student’s base school. For rising 9th graders who transfer to an IB school or AP school, schedules will be monitored to ensure that students are enrolled in the appropriate classes. All pupil placements are reviewed annually as required by the Regulation."

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton, Madison, and Westfield are now OPEN to
> pupil placement; Chantilly is CLOSED:
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/news/PupilPlacement%20Guidelin
> es2008-09.pdf
>
> "Fairfax County Public Schools
> 2008-2009 Pupil Placement Summary
>
> Current FCPS policy and practices will be followed
> regarding exceptions to the boundary adjustments
> approved by the School Board on February 28, 2008.
>
>
> Grandfathering Students (transportation provided
> for grandfathered period only)
> Students who are in their final year of elementary
> and middle school have the option to remain in the
> school they attended prior to the boundary change.
> All high school students currently enrolled have
> the option of remaining at the school they
> attended before the boundary change. Principals at
> the schools affected by the boundary changes will
> survey parents regarding their desire to remain at
> their current school or attend their newly
> assigned school.
>
> Siblings Building principals continue to have
> limited flexibility in allowing pupil placements
> for unusual cases of hardship. Pupil placement for
> siblings must be initiated with the principal of
> the base school. Typically, requests for pupil
> placement of siblings to schools that are at or
> above capacity are denied. ...
>
> Following the February 28, 2008, School Board
> boundary revisions, the list of schools in the
> affected area now open/closed to student transfers
> is as follows:
>
> Open to Pupil Placements:
> Forestdale ES
> Sunrise Valley ES
> Hughes Middle
> Madison High
> Oakton High
> South Lakes High
> Westfield High
>
> Closed to Pupil Placements:
> Springfield Estates Elementary
> Wolftrap Elementary
> Thoreau Middle
> Chantilly High
>
> The annual revision of the list of schools closed
> to student transfer for 2008-09 will be posted by
> June 1, 2008. High school students who prefer the
> International Baccalaureate (IB) or Advanced
> Placement (AP) program not offered at their base
> school may request pupil placement. This transfer
> request must be made for the school closest to the
> student’s residence or closest to the student’s
> base school. For rising 9th graders who transfer
> to an IB school or AP school, schedules will be
> monitored to ensure that students are enrolled in
> the appropriate classes. All pupil placements are
> reviewed annually as required by the Regulation."


So Navy can't go back to Chantilly?

AFMD Wrote:
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> > ... Competitive colleges
> > look for students doing well in the most rigorous
> > courses available to them. Such universities
> > therefore do appreciate students who are on track
> > for the FULL IB Diploma - but the majority of
> > students in IB high schools take themselves off
> > that track by NOT being IB Diploma Candidates. ...
> >
> Lets say there are two students at two different
> schools, one AP and the other IB. They both have
> identical GPAs and SAT scores and both take a few
> AP or IB equivalent courses and they both want to
> get into a good college but not necessarily Ivy
> caliber schools.
>
> Are you saying that the AP student is more likely
> to get INTO (as oppposed to credit for) a good
> college than the IB student even though they
> maintained the same workload and results simply
> because the IB student didn't get the IB diploma?
> That would seem to discrimine against IB schools
> as the workload is the same for both students. If
> this is true, are you able to support it in any
> way? Stating school admissions policies is kind
> of like saying speed limits are 55 or 65, it
> doesn't necessarily reflect the reality on the
> ground. ...


First define "equivalent courses." Standard/Subsidiary Level (SL) courses are generally NOT equivalent. (There are always exceptions, e.g., some less-competitive colleges might consider a two-year SL lab science as equivalent to one year of an AP science.)

Two- year High Level (HL) courses are far more likely to have AP "equivalents."

Some of the "most popular" AP courses do not have IB equivalents (e.g., AP US History; AP US Government, AP Art History)

When you write "both take a few AP or IB equivalent courses" I assume you mean taking three or four AP or three or four IB HL courses - and just about every student who can handle three or four HL courses is a full IB Diploma Candidate.

There are (always!) exceptions - perhaps a students is taking HL math and two HL sciences but cannot handle HL English, foreign language, and social studies. (In my opinion such a student should either be at Jefferson or pupil-placed to an AP school, but every case is different.) To answer your question, I suspect this student taking HL math and two HL sciences would appear about as acceptable to colleges as a student with the same GPA, SAT, and activities taking AP BC Calculus and two AP sciences.

navy?? Wrote:
> So Navy can't go back to Chantilly?

---
What this new FCPS doucment says is :"Typically, requests for pupil placement of siblings to schools that are at or above capacity are denied."

The word "typically" gives you some wiggle-room.

Chantilly is over-crowded this year, but who knows how many students will attend next year after some of the ninth graders are shifted to Oakton? I'd go ahead and submit a request for sibling-based pupil-placement back to Chantilly.

[And no, that is NOT any sort of insult to Oakton, but rather recognition that most of us like where we are and want to stay there and want our children in the same high school.]

NoJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as you are working here from information that
> you know, so am I. It was a provacation to say
> that those mothers don't know the value of a
> dollar, but I will tell you this: that is all I
> have heard, over and over and over - cossetted
> moms who all want their little girls to go to
> school at SL together who do not realize that they
> just gave away the farm. There are hundreds of
> families out here that made real monetary
> investments and I do acknowledge that it is not
> fair to say that mothers did not contribute, of
> course they did.
>
> Still, the majority of families that bought in FME
> did so for Oakton HS, that is indisputable. I
> stand by the fact that property values will go
> further down in FME because of the RD, and that
> these parents simply don't care about this and the
> rest of us are stuck with it.



TO No justice I am one of the little ladies you are talking about. Interesting fact our house in FME was cheaper then almost identical houses we saw in Reston that feed into south lakes So I have disagree with you on the house pricing. You need to walk no I say run to a therapist to get rid of your anger or at least point in the right direction .

littlelady Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoJustice Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just as you are working here from information
> that
> > you know, so am I. It was a provacation to say
> > that those mothers don't know the value of a
> > dollar, but I will tell you this: that is all I
> > have heard, over and over and over - cossetted
> > moms who all want their little girls to go to
> > school at SL together who do not realize that
> they
> > just gave away the farm. There are hundreds of
> > families out here that made real monetary
> > investments and I do acknowledge that it is not
> > fair to say that mothers did not contribute, of
> > course they did.
> >
> > Still, the majority of families that bought in
> FME
> > did so for Oakton HS, that is indisputable. I
> > stand by the fact that property values will go
> > further down in FME because of the RD, and that
> > these parents simply don't care about this and
> the
> > rest of us are stuck with it.
>
>
>
> TO No justice I am one of the little ladies you
> are talking about. Interesting fact our house in
> FME was cheaper then almost identical houses we
> saw in Reston that feed into south lakes So I
> have disagree with you on the house pricing. You
> need to walk no I say run to a therapist to get
> rid of your anger or at least point in the
> right direction .

Sound advice.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
> > Forum Reader Wrote:
> > > ... Competitive colleges
> > > look for students doing well in the most
> rigorous
> > > courses available to them. Such universities
> > > therefore do appreciate students who are on
> track
> > > for the FULL IB Diploma - but the majority of
> > > students in IB high schools take themselves
> off
> > > that track by NOT being IB Diploma Candidates.
> ...
> > >
> > Lets say there are two students at two
> different
> > schools, one AP and the other IB. They both
> have
> > identical GPAs and SAT scores and both take a
> few
> > AP or IB equivalent courses and they both want
> to
> > get into a good college but not necessarily Ivy
> > caliber schools.
> >
> > Are you saying that the AP student is more
> likely
> > to get INTO (as oppposed to credit for) a good
> > college than the IB student even though they
> > maintained the same workload and results simply
> > because the IB student didn't get the IB
> diploma?
> > That would seem to discrimine against IB
> schools
> > as the workload is the same for both students.
> If
> > this is true, are you able to support it in any
> > way? Stating school admissions policies is
> kind
> > of like saying speed limits are 55 or 65, it
> > doesn't necessarily reflect the reality on the
> > ground. ...
>
>
> First define "equivalent courses."
> Standard/Subsidiary Level (SL) courses are
> generally NOT equivalent. (There are always
> exceptions, e.g., some less-competitive colleges
> might consider a two-year SL lab science as
> equivalent to one year of an AP science.)
>
> Two- year High Level (HL) courses are far more
> likely to have AP "equivalents."
>
> Some of the "most popular" AP courses do not have
> IB equivalents (e.g., AP US History; AP US
> Government, AP Art History)
>
> When you write "both take a few AP or IB
> equivalent courses" I assume you mean taking three
> or four AP or three or four IB HL courses - and
> just about every student who can handle three or
> four HL courses is a full IB Diploma Candidate.
>
> There are (always!) exceptions - perhaps a
> students is taking HL math and two HL sciences but
> cannot handle HL English, foreign language, and
> social studies. (In my opinion such a student
> should either be at Jefferson or pupil-placed to
> an AP school, but every case is different.) To
> answer your question, I suspect this student
> taking HL math and two HL sciences would appear
> about as acceptable to colleges as a student with
> the same GPA, SAT, and activities taking AP BC
> Calculus and two AP sciences.


But here is the problem: I have a good friend who is a physics professor at a well-regarded southern VA university. She is on the scholarship committee. I was asking about IB and AP, and she said that while they absolutely accept IB students, it's harder to compare them with AP students. For instance, she and her team were reviewing a bunch of transcripts for scholarships and about 95 percent had participated in an AP curriculum. So, she had something like 80 AP transcripts and 3 or 4 IB ones. She said it adds an "apples to oranges" comparison to the equation--and it's certainly easier to compare AP to AP.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First define "equivalent courses."
> Standard/Subsidiary Level (SL) courses are
> generally NOT equivalent. (There are always
> exceptions, e.g., some less-competitive colleges
> might consider a two-year SL lab science as
> equivalent to one year of an AP science.)
>
> Two- year High Level (HL) courses are far more
> likely to have AP "equivalents."
>
> Some of the "most popular" AP courses do not have
> IB equivalents (e.g., AP US History; AP US
> Government, AP Art History)
>
> When you write "both take a few AP or IB
> equivalent courses" I assume you mean taking three
> or four AP or three or four IB HL courses - and
> just about every student who can handle three or
> four HL courses is a full IB Diploma Candidate.

I would define "equivalent courses" strictly in terms of content and work involved to pass the test. Since a IB HL course is two years vs a similar AP one year course I would consider IB twice the work and therfore not equivalent even though they may be for college credit. Incidentally, the Watkins Mill parent I spoke of above said the IB kids work much harder than his AP kid in class, presumably these are diploma candidates although he wasn't sure.

It's possible that I'm asking to quantify the unquantifiable. I'm just wondering what IB kids get out of IB classes (non-diploma candidates) that AP kids don't. Since AP kids get the tangible benefit of more credit for presumably less work, what do IB kids get from their classes? More knowledge?

This debate strikes me as possibly similar to the PC/Mac debate. If RD never came along, I would have just sent my kids to Oakton to pick up their AP(PC) classes and never considered an alternative. Now, I'm being pointed in the direction of the Mac store (SL/IB) and hearing these "once you go Mac, you never go back" arguements and wondering what the substance is behind it. Appologies to AP proponents who think, as I do, that Microsoft Corp is the equivalent of soviet style technology applied to PC software, I was just looking for a suitable analogy.

Well little lady your true Seahawk colors are shining through, you'll fit right in at SL as here you are, already telling other people what to do. Typical.

Truth is, I have every right to be angry and I am not alone. But, what goes around comes around. You will find yourself at SL in the years to come with more problems that you could have ever bargained for - good luck with that!

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Students who are in their final year of elementary
> and middle school have the option to remain in the
> school they attended prior to the boundary change.
> ....
>
From the FCPS pupil placing guidelines, what does this sentence mean exactly?

Who the hell cares if SLHS is good or bad academically? What you should worry about is the huge number of gang members in that school, with the highest number of school fighting incidents in Fairfax county. Unless you want your kids to get into a harmful way, otherwise, never send your kids to SLHS. Don't even get too close to it. Your kids will be beaten to death within a week unless they carry guns to protect themselves, or they are Black Belt Kong Fu masters. Pupil placed your kids out, or send them to private schools or even send them to Loudon County schools, or rent a place in a safer HS.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Closed to Pupil Placements:
> Springfield Estates Elementary
> Wolftrap Elementary
> Thoreau Middle
> Chantilly High
>
>

Closing Wolftrap and Thoreau is just another vindictive act against the Madison North community which has been picked out for special punishment

http://www.siemens-foundation.org/en/advanced_placement.htm

i guess ib diploma kids wouldn't even have a chance at this...

siemens foundation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.siemens-foundation.org/en/advanced_plac
> ement.htm
>
> i guess ib diploma kids wouldn't even have a
> chance at this...


So what??

We are more interested in learning than money!!

so_what? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> siemens foundation Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> http://www.siemens-foundation.org/en/advanced_plac
>
> > ement.htm
> >
> > i guess ib diploma kids wouldn't even have a
> > chance at this...
>
>
> So what??
>
> We are more interested in learning than money!!


"We"? Probably best to speak for yourself. I haven't even read what the foundation thing is, but I know that there are people, probably even at SL, who care about learning AND money. When did you decide they are mutually exclusive? Can't pay the mortgage/tuition/etc. with learning alone.

Im sure there is also money somewhere available for IB that is not available for AP.

NoJustice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well little lady your true Seahawk colors are
> shining through, you'll fit right in at SL as here
> you are, already telling other people what to do.
> Typical.
>
> Truth is, I have every right to be angry and I am
> not alone. But, what goes around comes around.
> You will find yourself at SL in the years to come
> with more problems that you could have ever
> bargained for - good luck with that!

Good luck to you also with your anger management.

Carson mom Wrote:
> ... while they absolutely accept IB
> students...

Whenever you mention "IB Students" please clarify: Do you mean IB Full Diploma Candidates (no question that they are acceptable, at least to most liberal arts colleges), or are you referring to students in an IB school who may be taking just one or two SL courses? There is a HUGE difference.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carson mom Wrote:
> > ... while they absolutely accept IB
> > students...
>
> Whenever you mention "IB Students" please clarify:
> Do you mean IB Full Diploma Candidates (no
> question that they are acceptable, at least to
> most liberal arts colleges), or are you referring
> to students in an IB school who may be taking just
> one or two SL courses? There is a HUGE difference.


Why do you need clarification. It is the same as a student who takes one AP class vs. a student that takes AP in every subject. You can be a non-diploma candidate and still take HL classes. There is a middle ground.

SBS Wrote:
> From the FCPS pupil placing guidelines, what does
> this sentence mean exactly?

FCPS generally does not pull students out of their "old" school, the one they have been attending, for just the last year in a school. Example: If you pupil-placed for IB and now decide you don't want to take any IB courses in your senior year, you will not be "kicked out" and sent back to your base school just for your senior year.

There are (always!) exceptions. For example, a student who is a discipline problem may be sent "back" to the base school. Or you may CHOOSE not to pupil-place for the last year, for some reason or another.

If your parents move to a different part of the county, whether you stay at your old school or change to a new school is more or less up to your family.

REPORT CARD FOR KATHY SMITH-SULLY DISTRICT SB MEMBER


Before we evaluate the quality of education some of the students in your district are receiving, I would like to comment on your email to Pamela Jones, a Westfield parent, where you referred to her as "vile and toxic".

Since you are a former educator, let's look at the definitions of these words:

Vile- adjective meaning wretchedly bad, highly offensive, unpleasant, foul, filthy, of mean or low condition, of little value or account.

Toxic- adjective meaning of, pertaining to, affected with, or caused by a toxin or poison.



I often use the word toxic to describe the potential dangerous air quality that exists in many of the trailers that our children spend their days in. Perhaps you could look into why FCPS does not perform air quality testing on these trailers. I think the word toxic can be applied to some of our schools. In a September 2005 article in Education World, Dr. Kent Peterson, a professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, describes toxic schools as ones where "teacher relations are often conflictual, the staff doesn't believe in the ability of the students to succeed, and a generally negative attitude prevails". According to Peterson, schools with a negative or "toxic" culture:

1. Lack a clear sense of purpose
2. Have norms that reinforce inertia
3. BLAME STUDENTS FOR LACK OF PROGRESS
4. Discourage collaboration
5. Often have actively hostile relations among staff

Let's take a look at some of the Sully District schools and see if maybe some of these "toxic" cultures exist.



Hughes Middle School

Did not make AYP and is in Year 4

34% of African American students failed the 7th grade reading tests-this is well above state averages.
70% of African American students failed the 7th grade math tests-this is also well above state averages.
69% of Latino students failed the 7th grade math tests-well above VA averages.
45% of African American students failed the 8th grade reading tests-a failure rate 45% higher than VA averages.
1 out of 3 African American students failed the 8th grade science tests-this failure rate DOUBLED from the prior year.
In virtually every category, students with disabilities at this school failed at a rate higher than VA averages

Are these students prepared for high school? Are these students prepared to take advanced courses in the AP/IB programs? Are these students at risk of dropping out of high school?

What is being done at this "toxic" and "vile" school to give these kids a better education?

Brookfield Elementary

Did not make AYP-Not In Improvement

1 out of 3 African American students failed the 3rd grade reading tests-this was an increase of 65% of the prior year's failure rate.

28% of Asian students failed the 3rd grade reading tests-twice the failure rate of the VA averages.
29% of African American students failed the 3rd grade math tests-a five fold increase from the prior year!
26% of all 6th grade students failed the reading tests- a failure rate twice that of other FCPS schools.
82%-YES EIGHTY TWO PERCENT-of African American 6th graders failed the math tests.
81% of Latino 6th graders failed the 6th grade math tests.
80% of White students failed the 6th grade math tests.
CONGRATULATIONS TO THIS SCHOOL-THEY HAVE CLOSED THE MINORITY ACHIEVEMENT GAP!! Apparently all students fail miserably in this category.

In 10 out of 12 testing categories students with disabilities at this school GROSSLY underperformed their VA student counterparts. In some cases, there were gaps of 30 percentage points.

The next time you call a concerned parent who is advocating for her child "vile and toxic" you think about some of your schools and the positively atrocious education they are providing our students. The parents and taxpayers expect a lot more from these schools and the students deserve better.


WATCHDOG

IBno Wrote:
> Why do you need clarification. It is the same as a
> student who takes one AP class vs. a student that
> takes AP in every subject. You can be a
> non-diploma candidate and still take HL classes.
> There is a middle ground.

As I wrote above, when posters write about taking AP or IB equivalent courses I assume they mean taking three or four AP or three or four IB HL courses - and just about every student who can handle three or four HL courses is a full IB Diploma Candidate.

And yes, there are (always!) exceptions - perhaps a student is taking HL math and two HL sciences but cannot handle HL English, foreign language, and social studies. In my opinion such a student should be either at Jefferson or pupil-placed to an AP school, but every case is different.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carson mom Wrote:
> > ... while they absolutely accept IB
> > students...
>
> Whenever you mention "IB Students" please clarify:
> Do you mean IB Full Diploma Candidates (no
> question that they are acceptable, at least to
> most liberal arts colleges), or are you referring
> to students in an IB school who may be taking just
> one or two SL courses? There is a HUGE difference.

Hello FR,
I know that you feel only full diploma candidates have no issues regarding college admissions, and that you seem to feel students in IB schools doing any less than that are at a disadvantage in terms of admissions (I am not discussing college credit, as we know there are issues there). Since you and others have repeatedly stated only 5% -7% of seniors get the full diploma, I would gather you also feel only 5%-7% at IB schools have no issues with admission? Do you see what I am getting at?

In regards to admission do you have stats that suggest the other 93-95% of students in IB schools, taking zero, some SL, some HL or some combo of IB courses but not the diploma, are having difficulties in college admissions?

It seems to me you are when you ask for clarification on IB students, and because some of your posts regarding college admissions seem to imply IB students who are only taking 1 or 2 IB courses don't fare as well as AP students taking 1 or 2 courses.

Do you have any stats to back this sentiment up?

If there was the HUGE difference you are suggesting, one would assume the stats of those 93%-95% of students not doing the full diploma would bare that out.

Clearly, from what I have seen, non-IB diploma students in IB schools in FCPS are being admitted to quality state and quality out of state universities. If you have stats that differ, please provide them.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carson mom Wrote:
> > ... while they absolutely accept IB
> > students...
>
> Whenever you mention "IB Students" please clarify:
> Do you mean IB Full Diploma Candidates (no
> question that they are acceptable, at least to
> most liberal arts colleges), or are you referring
> to students in an IB school who may be taking just
> one or two SL courses? There is a HUGE difference.


To be honest I don't know. She didn't differentiate. But all the students she was looking at were solid physics students (her words). I assumed this meant that these were all HS students who had taken the highest courses possible in physics (since it was for a physics scholarship.) I don't know if she cared/they cared if the students had the full IB diploma or not. (I will check with her...but I don't think she cares if a student does TOK and CAS...they're looking for physics scholars not IB scholars.)

"Hughes Middle School

Did not make AYP and is in Year 4

34% of African American students failed the 7th grade reading tests-this is well above state averages.
70% of African American students failed the 7th grade math tests-this is also well above state averages.
69% of Latino students failed the 7th grade math tests-well above VA averages.
45% of African American students failed the 8th grade reading tests-a failure rate 45% higher than VA averages.
1 out of 3 African American students failed the 8th grade science tests-this failure rate DOUBLED from the prior year.
In virtually every category, students with disabilities at this school failed at a rate higher than VA averages"

Watchdog,

Hughes is in the Hunters Mill district--belongs to Stu. (according to the SB, all fcps schools belong to the SB) and Brookfield ES, I believe that is in the Chantilly area so it is Kathy's. I am curious about that infamous email claiming that Kathy has sent to a parent with such harsh words that people have been talking about. If she really said that, she should be reprimanded for insulting a parent like that.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Hughes Middle School
>
> Did not make AYP and is in Year 4
>
> 34% of African American students failed the 7th
> grade reading tests-this is well above state
> averages.
> 70% of African American students failed the 7th
> grade math tests-this is also well above state
> averages.
> 69% of Latino students failed the 7th grade math
> tests-well above VA averages.
> 45% of African American students failed the 8th
> grade reading tests-a failure rate 45% higher than
> VA averages.
> 1 out of 3 African American students failed the
> 8th grade science tests-this failure rate DOUBLED
> from the prior year.
> In virtually every category, students with
> disabilities at this school failed at a rate
> higher than VA averages"
>


and this is the school into which the SB annexed Madison North and then closed Thoreau to pupil placement to make sure all of the kids have to go

Janie should be ashamed of herself

AFMD Wrote:

...what do IB kids get from their classes?
> More knowledge?
>

Yes. And greater ability to apply that knowledge within disciplines and at disciplinary intersections.

But you won't believe me. Nobody on this board who propounds to be an AP advocate will entertain for a moment that IB might have something more substantive to offer than AP does -- as individual courses or as a program (certificate or diploma), and for ALL kids, not just a "chosen few" as some like to make you believe. It's "AP or Bust," for them. So this post will go ignored or ridiculed. And you can all continue to swirl around in your own homocyclic community.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Clearly you are operating under the assumption
> that IB will not help your child get INTO college,
> when in fact most universities love the IB
> program. It is a crying shame that they do not yet
> offer equal credit for what are at least as
> rigorous courses. I have advocated with FCPS for
> years to use their clout with Universities for
> equal credit, but the staff person I was most
> closely working with developed cancer and had to
> retire. If FCPS cannot lobby for equal credit, I
> have advocated for supplementing IB with AP
> courses or chucking IB altogether. If the County
> won't stand behind it, it should be eliminated.
> Go back and read my posts if you don't believe me.
>
>
> Having said that, high school is not for racking
> up credits, it is for learning how to learn and
> succeed. Some of you may do everything in your
> power to help your kids succeed, and they may not
> do squat. Other parents may be absolute shits,
> and their kids may turn out to be wonderkinds. Go
> figure.

SL -

1) The problem with credits for IB courses is that credit isn't determined by the admissions offices, it's determined by the individual departments. So, instead of convincing 3000+ admissions offices that IB is a great program, credit requires convincing approximately 80,000 individual departments about individual classes. In much of the country, many of those individual departments won't see more than a couple kids who've taken IB classes per year. Even assuming Diploma kids (and most non-Diploma, but IB class takers) apply to only a couple hundred colleges/universities, there are still 8,000 or so individual departments that have to develop policies for a small percentage of their accepted kids per year. In other words, until IB gets a critical mass, (which I'd guess is something like 2-to-4000 schools with a hundred kids with IB classes per year per school) there simply aren't enough kids showing up at the individual departments for them to spend their time figuring it out.

2) On racking up credits, though actual credit/early graduation is important for some, for myself, I think placing out of those dreadful 300 kid auditorium classes is much more important. I'd rather not pay for those classes if my kids can instead place into reasonably sized classes with some actual relationship to their professors and the other kids in their classes.

Response Wrote:
> ...greater ability to apply ... at disciplinary
> intersections.... you can all continue to swirl around in your
> own homocyclic community.

Is this an example of applying knowledge at disciplinary intersections?
ho·mo·cy·clic adj - used to describe a chemical compound in which molecules take the form of a ring in which all the atoms are the same

disgrace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Hughes Middle School
> >
> > Did not make AYP and is in Year 4
> >
> > 34% of African American students failed the 7th
> > grade reading tests-this is well above state
> > averages.
> > 70% of African American students failed the 7th
> > grade math tests-this is also well above state
> > averages.
> > 69% of Latino students failed the 7th grade
> math
> > tests-well above VA averages.
> > 45% of African American students failed the 8th
> > grade reading tests-a failure rate 45% higher
> than
> > VA averages.
> > 1 out of 3 African American students failed the
> > 8th grade science tests-this failure rate
> DOUBLED
> > from the prior year.
> > In virtually every category, students with
> > disabilities at this school failed at a rate
> > higher than VA averages"
> >
>
>
> and this is the school into which the SB annexed
> Madison North and then closed Thoreau to pupil
> placement to make sure all of the kids have to go
>
> Janie should be ashamed of herself


Janie presents herself as a sweet and harmless old lady whose only concern
is "for the children". She is quite tight with the business community and obviously did their bidding by retaliating against activist members of the Madison North community.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Response Wrote:
> > ...greater ability to apply ... at disciplinary
> > intersections.... you can all continue to swirl
> around in your
> > own homocyclic community.
>
> Is this an example of applying knowledge at
> disciplinary intersections?
> ho·mo·cy·clic adj - used to describe a chemical
> compound in which molecules take the form of a
> ring in which all the atoms are the same


If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS

We should be thankful that SL has IB. It provides a ready made exuse for pupil placing... and I'm sure the Navy folks wish they had a similar excuse to use.

It's not about whether one is better than the other, it's all about staying put. Nothing wrong with that, SL people would do the same.

Perhaps this will push the FoxMill and Floris kids to higher achievements by having to make the grades to stay in AP at some other school. Some good may come of that.

word Wrote:
> ... Perhaps this will push the FoxMill and Floris kids
> to higher achievements by having to make the
> grades to stay in AP at some other school. ...

What do you mean by "having to make the grades to stay in AP"? Where is there a GPA minimum to access or to stay in AP? That is one of the advantages of AP - a student can take college-level courses in an area of strength even if some other subjects are difficult.

> But here is the problem: I have a good friend who
> is a physics professor at a well-regarded southern
> VA university. She is on the scholarship
> committee. I was asking about IB and AP, and she
> said that while they absolutely accept IB
> students, it's harder to compare them with AP
> students. For instance, she and her team were
> reviewing a bunch of transcripts for scholarships
> and about 95 percent had participated in an AP
> curriculum. So, she had something like 80 AP
> transcripts and 3 or 4 IB ones. She said it adds
> an "apples to oranges" comparison to the
> equation--and it's certainly easier to compare AP
> to AP.

Your example is a good one. Students who are strong in math and physics do not choose the IB program, they choose AP because they can get higher level math (calculus linnear algebra, multi Var), AP physics and AP computer science. IB is a nice program for those who excel in languages and literature, assuming they don't care about college credits. Math/Science/Engineering students have more options in AP and are better prepared for college in those fields.

>>>Janie presents herself as a sweet and harmless old lady whose only concern
is "for the children". She is quite tight with the business community and obviously did their bidding by retaliating against activist members of the Madison North community.<<<

Huh? When did the business community weigh in? And why?

Sweet old lady? Likely Hillary, Janie is 60, not 90, and hardly harmless. She's obviously quite powerful. She protects her community which is more than most school board members can do. It has nothing to do with what Gerry Connelly's business people want done.

Response Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AFMD Wrote:
>
> ...what do IB kids get from their classes?
> > More knowledge?
> >
>
> Yes. And greater ability to apply that knowledge
> within disciplines and at disciplinary
> intersections.
>
> But you won't believe me. Nobody on this board who
> propounds to be an AP advocate will entertain for
> a moment that IB might have something more
> substantive to offer than AP does -- as individual
> courses or as a program (certificate or diploma),
> and for ALL kids, not just a "chosen few" as some
> like to make you believe. It's "AP or Bust," for
> them. So this post will go ignored or ridiculed.
> And you can all continue to swirl around in your
> own homocyclic community.

Homocyclic community? Is that a gay community that rides bicycles? Or unicycles? Is that big in Reston? Who knew?!

Perhaps if there was some evidence that IB students had a "greater ability to apply that knowledge
> within disciplines and at disciplinary
> intersections" we might believe you. It would also help your argument if you could explain what that means, and why we might want our children to have that ability, because it sure sounds like bafflegab educratize, to the rest of us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 09:23PM by Neen.

another rcms mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No. No. No. Do not allow your student to register
> for any class at any school other than the one you
> are attempting to pupil place in. You only have
> to turn in the pupil placement form at the new
> base school (SL) and be interviewed by the
> principal. Please do not confuse the kids any
> more than necessary by signing up for classes at 2
> different schools.
>
> Finally, don't forget to check out the CAPS web
> page for current information regarding pupil
> placement.

Can you provide a link to CAPS? Is this the correct link?
http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/html/pupil_placement.html

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Janie presents herself as a sweet and harmless
> old lady whose only concern
> is "for the children". She is quite tight with the
> business community and obviously did their bidding
> by retaliating against activist members of the
> Madison North community.<<<
>
> Huh? When did the business community weigh in?
> And why?
>
> Sweet old lady? Likely Hillary, Janie is 60, not
> 90, and hardly harmless. She's obviously quite
> powerful. She protects her community which is
> more than most school board members can do. It has
> nothing to do with what Gerry Connelly's business
> people want done.

It is obvious that you do not recognize sarcasm when you see it(in reference to "sweet old lady).
As to your assertion that she has no ties to the business community
you really should do your homework. Jane and the rest of the SB approved
a contract with a cell tower construction company that placed cell towers on
most FCPS campuses. This move served absolutely no educational purpose other than to enrich the cell tower company(and brought in chump change to the schools.

>>>>Well little lady your true Seahawk colors are shining through, you'll fit right in at SL as here you are, already telling other people what to do. Typical.<<<

THAT is what is the most offensive.

pupil_place Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I remember right, last year 40 + students pupil
> placed into SL for IB and 40 + pupil placed out of
> SL for AP. So it was a wash.
>
> The preliminary indications are 100 + last years
> 40 (assuming there is no change in Reston numbers)
> will pupil place out for AP from SL this year.
>
> How does that look on paper? Will that create a
> bad impression in parent's mind?
>
> Just curious.

You may remember that Mr.Butler told you that, but it was not the reality. You can go to board.docs and find that more than twice as many students pupil placed OUT of SL this year as those who pupil placed into South Lakes. Or you can simply look at the data that Forum Reader has provided here. Of course this year many more will be pupil placing out.

You are correct, the trend is not good for South Lakes. Perhaps the school board will face that reality, and begin to transition to AP at South Lakes, before they are forced to close it, or redistrict again. Although that seems unlikely after the disaster of this redistricting.

herb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >>>Janie presents herself as a sweet and
> harmless
> > old lady whose only concern
> > is "for the children". She is quite tight with
> the
> > business community and obviously did their
> bidding> > by retaliating against activist members of the
> > Madison North community.<<<
> >
> > Huh? When did the business community weigh in?
>
> > And why?
> >
> > Sweet old lady? Likely Hillary, Janie is 60,
> not
> > 90, and hardly harmless. She's obviously quite
> > powerful. She protects her community which is
> > more than most school board members can do. It
> has
> > nothing to do with what Gerry Connelly's
> business
> > people want done.
>
> It is obvious that you do not recognize sarcasm
> when you see it(in reference to "sweet old lady).
> As to your assertion that she has no ties to the
> business community
> you really should do your homework. Jane and the
> rest of the SB approved
> a contract with a cell tower construction company
> that placed cell towers on
> most FCPS campuses. This move served absolutely no
> educational purpose other than to enrich the cell
> tower company(and brought in chump change to the
> schools.


Yes, FCPS takes money from various sources, including Coke Cola and Sprint. But what does that have to do with Madison Island?

This thread is getting boring

Bored** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is getting boring


Not to worry. Once CAPS Lawsuit is filed, this thread will go to 500+ pages. The saga has not ended yet. And if the law suit prevails I would guess 1000+ pages is within reach.

The only positive thing that came out of RD, is how the targeted comunities came together as one to fight this. Heck, now I know a lot more of my neighbours in my subdivision. The sad part is that eventually one by one most are planning their move out around the time their kids get to High School age.

maude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Janie . . . is quite tight with the business community and obviously did
> their bidding by retaliating against activist members of the Madison North
> community.

I'm no fan of Janie, the weasel, but can you spin this connection out a little better for us. Exactly how is screwing Madison North "doing the bidding of the business community?"

CAPS, SCHMAPS,

As someone suggested several days and 5-10 pages ago, anyone going into court seeking injunctive relief in the timeframe that CAPS would need to be asking for (this Summer, before the 2008-2009 school year starts) had better be showing a sense of urgency itself. It is called preliminary injunctive relief (asking for an injunction--to stop the SB from enforcing its new school boundaries--prior to the time of trial, which would be a year or more off in the distance). Time is of the essence in obtaining this extraordinary form of relief, and CAPS has, even in the three short weeks since the decision, demonstrated (by not filing this threatened suit) that time is NOT of the essence.

wait_for_caps_lawsuit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bored** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This thread is getting boring
>
>
> Not to worry. Once CAPS Lawsuit is filed, this
> thread will go to 500+ pages. The saga has not
> ended yet. And if the law suit prevails I would
> guess 1000+ pages is within reach.

Fairfax County Public Schools 2008-2009 Pupil Placement Summary

http://www.fcps.edu/news/PupilPlacement%20Guidelines2008-09.pdf

Grandfathering Students (transportation provided for grandfathered period only)
Students who are in their final year of elementary and middle school have the option to remain in the school they attended prior to the boundary change. All high school students currently enrolled have the option of remaining at the school they attended before the boundary change. Principals at the schools affected by the boundary changes will survey parents regarding their desire to remain at their current school or attend their newly assigned school.

I am very confused about this. Can someone explain it? Does it mean we don't need pupil place to stay at our old school now?

Thanks.

Fairfax County Public Schools 2008-2009 Pupil Placement Summary

http://www.fcps.edu/news/PupilPlacement%20Guidelines2008-09.pdf

Grandfathering Students (transportation provided for grandfathered period only)
Students who are in their final year of elementary and middle school have the option to remain in the school they attended prior to the boundary change. All high school students currently enrolled have the option of remaining at the school they attended before the boundary change. Principals at the schools affected by the boundary changes will survey parents regarding their desire to remain at their current school or attend their newly assigned school.

I am very confused about this. Can someone explain it? Does it mean we don't need pupil place to stay at our old school now?

Thanks.

so_what? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> siemens foundation Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> http://www.siemens-foundation.org/en/advanced_plac
>
> > ement.htm
> >
> > i guess ib diploma kids wouldn't even have a
> > chance at this...
>
>
> So what??
>
> We are more interested in learning than money!!

Apparently you don't know what Seimens scholars do to win these prizes. You might want to find out so you don't repeat such dumb posts.

>>>Hughes Middle School

Did not make AYP and is in Year 4

34% of African American students failed the 7th grade reading tests-this is well above state averages.
70% of African American students failed the 7th grade math tests-this is also well above state averages.
69% of Latino students failed the 7th grade math tests-well above VA averages.
45% of African American students failed the 8th grade reading tests-a failure rate 45% higher than VA averages.
1 out of 3 African American students failed the 8th grade science tests-this failure rate DOUBLED from the prior year.
In virtually every category, students with disabilities at this school failed at a rate higher than VA averages<<<

This is just sad. When are people in Reston going to object to this and hold their school board rep and FCPS staff responsible for improving these statistics? This is awful. They should be ashamed of themselves!

Yes, Do it now. The deadline is quickly approaching. Go to fairfaxcaps.com if you have any questions. They have a committee set up to work with parents who are trying to pupil place their student to a different school.

This refers to the elementary and middle school changes that were made in regards to the MI area. Next year, if a redistricted student will be in 6th or 8th grade, he/she may stay at the school they are presently in. This has nothing to do with the high schools. This is very confusing, and in my opinion, the SB has opened up a "can of worms" because many parents will not be able to understand this. Hope the SB gets a lot of calls on this one!

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not about whether one is better than the
> other, it's all about staying put. Nothing wrong
> with that, SL people would do the same.

If the boundary lines had been re-drawn between Oakton, Madison, and Langley, I don't think anyone would have cared -- not in the way people are in an uproar now.

People think South Lakes (and its feeders) have !@#$ academics and are generally !@#$ schools. It's not racism; I believe that most of the affected parents wouldn't take a $5,000/yr payment to attend Frederick, Warren, and Shenandoah schools (they are all 85-90% White.) I also suspect the really hardcore racists HAVE already gone out to the outermost suburbs.

People also don't like the IB program South Lakes uses; I'd guesstimate maybe 20-30% of affected parents might give SL a try if they ditched IB.

Confused Wrote:
> Students who are in their final year of elementary
> and middle school have the option to remain in the
> school they attended prior to the boundary change.
> All high school students currently enrolled have
> the option of remaining at the school they
> attended before the boundary change. Principals at
> the schools affected by the boundary changes will
> survey parents regarding their desire to remain at
> their current school or attend their newly
> assigned school.
>
> I am very confused about this. Can someone explain
> it? Does it mean we don't need pupil place to stay
> at our old school now?
-------------
CHECK WITH YOUR CURRENT PRINCIPAL, but I think they are trying to say ONLY students GOING INTO 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th, or 12th grades may stay where they are.

If you have a CURRENT eighth grader, get your pupil-placement request form in NOW or you may be trapped by the deadline.

Students redistricted into South Lakes may request transfer to the AP school that is closest to the student’s residence OR to MADISON, the AP school that is closest to South Lakes. (Mapquest states Madison is 5.8 miles from South Lakes, compared to 6 miles to Herndon and 6.9 miles to Oakton.)

To repeat the above post, "Go to fairfaxcaps.com if you have any questions. They have a committee set up to work with parents who are trying to pupil place their student to a different school"

Mr. Regnier 3/13/08

I must protest the fact that FCPS wants $5,933.98 in order to tell me what the foreign travel costs have been for FCPS employees over the last five years.

How do you do annual budget reports? Manually? Do you not report on each annual budget foreign travel? Or do you lump all travel together?

I cannot believe that one of the largest school systems in the country does anything manually.

You indicate that you now have automated your system, therefore, please give me what you have on foreign travel in this automated system.

Respectfully,


Watchdog




Mr. Regnier 3/1/08


I am making the following FOIA request.

Please provide me copies of any documents that indicates foreign travel by any FCPS employee and the school board in the last five years.

Respectfully,

WATCHDOG

THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR FROM ANY SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER.

THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR FROM ANY FCPS EMPLOYEE.

ATTACKING STUDENTS, CITIZENS AND TALKING LIKE THIS HAS NO PLACE IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM.

WHAT HAS THIS SCHOOL BOARD BECOME?

YOU HAVE BECOME DICTATORS WHO RULE ABSOLUTELY, BRUTALLY AND OPPRESSIVELY.


I would like to comment on your email to Pamela Jones, a Westfield parent, where you referred to her as "vile and toxic".

Since you are a former educator, let's look at the definitions of these words:

Vile-adjective meaning wretchedly bad, highly offensive, unpleasant, foul, filthy, of mean or low condition, of little value or account.

Toxic-adjective meaning of, pertaining to, affected with, or caused by a toxin or poison.


I often use the word toxic to describe the potential dangerous air quality that exists in many of the trailers that our children spend their days in. Perhaps you could look into why FCPS does not perform air quality testing on these trailers. I think the word toxic can be applied to some of our schools. In a September 2005 article in Education World, Dr. Kent Peterson, a professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, describes toxic schools as ones where "teacher relations are often conflictual, the staff doesn't believe in the ability of the students to succeed, and a generally negative attitude prevails". According to Peterson, schools with a negative or "toxic" culture:

1. Lack a clear sense of purpose
2. Have norms that reinforce inertia
3. BLAME STUDENTS FOR LACK OF PROGRESS
4. Discourage collaboration
5. Often have actively hostile relations among staff

WATCHDOG

one_good_thing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only positive thing that came out of RD, is
> how the targeted comunities came together as one
> to fight this. Heck, now I know a lot more of my
> neighbours in my subdivision. The sad part is that
> eventually one by one most are planning their move
> out around the time their kids get to High School
> age.


This reminds me of the story in the Post of the lady living in a 6,600 sq ft house on some estate walking around with her kids in a little stroller trying to figure out what school to send her precious ones to a zillion years from now.

Arguably, your neighbors are closer (timewise) to a decision point, BUT...

In my humble opinion, this is a bit of hysteria and paranoia - and it sounds like some are thinking that far ahead. A lot of things can change over time, schools can become better, schools can become worse, curriculums can change, SB makeup can change, laws can change, etc.

Heck, I am sure there are some on this board that were either around or kids involved in the whole Herndon to Oakton redistricting some years ago. Though I did not live in the area at the time, my guess is that the same debate going on at that time was similar in nature.

Now, that whole move is all but forgotten. My gut is that this MAY go down the same way. MAY because nobody can say with certainty, BUT for those some time away from having to decide, give it a little time to play itself out, give it a chance, and see what happens.

formerhick76 Wrote:

>
> If the boundary lines had been re-drawn between
> Oakton, Madison, and Langley, I don't think anyone
> would have cared -- not in the way people are in
> an uproar now.
>

You are dead wrong on this. Langley and Madison will not be in uproar but by this time they will have a lawsuit filed and Stu Gibson would have to answer for all those fat campaign donations.

> People also don't like the IB program South Lakes
> uses; I'd guesstimate maybe 20-30% of affected
> parents might give SL a try if they ditched IB.

Ditch IB for AP and we will gladly come to SL. But don't ask us to come first and then work towards replacing IB. These are valuable years of our Children's education and we can't waste them hoping Stu Gibson and SL PTSA will have change of heart.

leave_us_alone Wrote:
> Ditch IB for AP and we will gladly come to SL.
> But don't ask us to come first and then work
> towards replacing IB. These are valuable years of
> our Children's education and we can't waste them
> hoping Stu Gibson and SL PTSA will have change of
> heart.

The only AP course I see in the SLHS catalog for next year is AP Government. Questions for South Lakers:
1) Are there any other AP courses at SLHS next year that I missed?
2) It is NOT clear from the South Lakes guide that pre-IB students may take AP Government. It would make makes sense to have a combined Pre-IB/AP Government class - that is how it is done at Robinson - but these two courses are listed as separate courses at SLHS. Does anyone know why?
3) Why not offer Pre-AP World Civ at SLHS this fall? [As mentioned earlier, the social studies "tracks" for AP and IB differ starting in ninth grade.]
4) Did the plan to offer AP Human Geography get dropped?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> leave_us_alone Wrote:
> > Ditch IB for AP and we will gladly come to SL.
> > But don't ask us to come first and then work
> > towards replacing IB. These are valuable years
> of
> > our Children's education and we can't waste
> them
> > hoping Stu Gibson and SL PTSA will have change
> of
> > heart.
>
> The only AP course I see in the SLHS catalog for
> next year is AP Government. Questions for South
> Lakers:
> 1) Are there any other AP courses at SLHS next
> year that I missed?
> 2) It is NOT clear from the South Lakes guide that
> pre-IB students may take AP Government. It would
> make makes sense to have a combined Pre-IB/AP
> Government class - that is how it is done at
> Robinson - but these two courses are listed as
> separate courses at SLHS. Does anyone know why?
> 3) Why not offer Pre-AP World Civ at SLHS this
> fall?
> 4) Did the plan to offer AP Human Geography get
> dropped?


TM mentioned in an earlier post that not enough people signed up for AP Human Geography. I don't know if it will be back on the table if more people signed up for it.

The Clock is Ticking Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPS, SCHMAPS,
>
> As someone suggested several days and 5-10 pages
> ago, anyone going into court seeking injunctive
> relief in the timeframe that CAPS would need to be
> asking for (this Summer, before the 2008-2009
> school year starts) had better be showing a sense
> of urgency itself. It is called preliminary
> injunctive relief (asking for an injunction--to
> stop the SB from enforcing its new school
> boundaries--prior to the time of trial, which
> would be a year or more off in the distance).
> Time is of the essence in obtaining this
> extraordinary form of relief, and CAPS has, even
> in the three short weeks since the decision,
> demonstrated (by not filing this threatened suit)
> that time is NOT of the essence.
>
> wait_for_caps_lawsuit Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Bored** Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This thread is getting boring
> >
> >
> > Not to worry. Once CAPS Lawsuit is filed, this
> > thread will go to 500+ pages. The saga has not
> > ended yet. And if the law suit prevails I would
> > guess 1000+ pages is within reach.


There are other, wealthier communities that could rally a little faster (and raise funds a little quicker), but Caps has been working hard on the legal front. While time is of the essence, there is a window we have to work with--and so far we are fine. There are smart, dedicated people committed to this. Expect activity on this front soon.

Have any of the kids who were RDed into SL and turned in a PP form had their "interview" with Butler? Is he moving on those forms or holding onto them? Can he arbitrarily reject them or does he need to move them?

The RCMS teachers gave the kids recommendation forms for HS classes -- if the teachers didn't recommend a Pre-AP or Honors course, can a parent legitimately argue that they want AP for their kid?

I would appreciate any guidance anyone has.

Thanks.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TM mentioned in an earlier post that not enough people signed up for AP Human
> Geography. I don't know if it will be back on the table if more people signed up
> for it.

Correction.

I asked if anyone knew if enough kids had signed up for the course so that it would be actually taught in the fall.

I don't know the answer and no one has posted an answer to that question.

I also expressed the concern that if not enough did, the IB advocates would use that as proof that there really wasn't any interest in AP among SL kids.

I won't have access to Red Apple 21 tonight and hope others will tune in and post what if anything the worthies do to rebut the conclusion I posted that Phil was locking IB in at SL for the next 5 years.

They can reconsider it tonight because it's the first business meeting of the full board since Phil's motion passed.

It will also be interesting to hear if the SB has fixed the sound system.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I won't have access to Red Apple 21 tonight and
> hope others will tune in and post what if anything
> the worthies do to rebut the conclusion I posted
> that Phil was locking IB in at SL for the next 5
> years.
>
> They can reconsider it tonight because it's the
> first business meeting of the full board since
> Phil's motion passed.
>
> It will also be interesting to hear if the SB has
> fixed the sound system.


I don't know about others but I was really upset with how SB members trivialized the AP/IB issue at Feb 28th meeting. Stu just dismisses it but I thought other board members will be more understanding towards it. Other than Tina Hone and Raney, others either did not understand the issue or they understood it but chose to ignore it.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TM mentioned in an earlier post that not enough
> people signed up for AP Human
> > Geography. I don't know if it will be back on
> the table if more people signed up
> > for it.
>
> Correction.
>
> I asked if anyone knew if enough kids had signed
> up for the course so that it would be actually
> taught in the fall.
>
> I don't know the answer and no one has posted an
> answer to that question.
>
> I also expressed the concern that if not enough
> did, the IB advocates would use that as proof that
> there really wasn't any interest in AP among SL
> kids.


Ok, thanks. Sorry for the confusion.

I did my sons PP form and went to a meeting with Bruce Butler. The meeting is cursory. He wants to make sure you understand IB vs AP. He will then forward your form and must forward your form.

Your child is not required to have had Honors classes. There is no known criteria other than capacity or distance to closest school that would restrict a student from pursuing AP or IB.

Attention all Stu Gibson haters!!

Check out his comments in the SB minutes of Regular Meeting #14 on 2/23/2006-pages 8-9.

The topic was about boundary changes involving Lee and West Springdield which apparently got pretty ugly.

I will quote him:

"That over the years he had seen a proliferation of the use of PTAs to advance positions, which he felt was a slippery slope; that when PTAs become involved in boundary issues, they alienate many of the parents whose support they needed to fullfill their mission; that he urged parents to form pyramid solution groups, which was much more effective; that he felt the boundary process was broken and needed to be fixed....

He sure embraced that whole PTA process when it came to getting him what he wanted for SL. What a hypocite.

Lee Parent Wrote:

>
> He sure embraced that whole PTA process when it
> came to getting him what he wanted for SL. What a
> hypocite.


I'm sure he has grown and learned from his experience. Let's all be glad for this. (snark noises)

I hope that his words can be captured and used where they will do some good...

Herndon2Oakton Wrote:
> In my humble opinion, this is a bit of hysteria
> and paranoia - and it sounds like some are
> thinking that far ahead. A lot of things can
> change over time, schools can become better,
> schools can become worse, curriculums can change,
> SB makeup can change, laws can change, etc.

For those of us with younger children, yes, it can be expected that things will change with time - perhaps many times over in the next 10 years. But what you miss is the greater risk looming to those with younger kids in the McNair/Floris area - we have to go through this again next fall. Now I'd love to believe that the Floris folks get a reprieve next year if they were moved the HS level this year, but the maps tell a possibly different story. You could see neighborhoods in the span of 2 years lose both their elementary school and high schools to lower performing/failing schools.

> Now, that whole move is all but forgotten. My gut
> is that this MAY go down the same way. MAY
> because nobody can say with certainty, BUT for
> those some time away from having to decide, give
> it a little time to play itself out, give it a
> chance, and see what happens.

Some may not be willing to take that risk. What "MAY" happen could have too large of an impact for some folks' tastes.

Future Seahawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Herndon2Oakton Wrote:
> > In my humble opinion, this is a bit of hysteria
> > and paranoia - and it sounds like some are
> > thinking that far ahead. A lot of things can
> > change over time, schools can become better,
> > schools can become worse, curriculums can
> change,
> > SB makeup can change, laws can change, etc.
>
> For those of us with younger children, yes, it can
> be expected that things will change with time -
> perhaps many times over in the next 10 years. But
> what you miss is the greater risk looming to those
> with younger kids in the McNair/Floris area - we
> have to go through this again next fall. Now I'd
> love to believe that the Floris folks get a
> reprieve next year if they were moved the HS level
> this year, but the maps tell a possibly different
> story. You could see neighborhoods in the span of
> 2 years lose both their elementary school and high
> schools to lower performing/failing schools.
>
> > Now, that whole move is all but forgotten. My
> gut
> > is that this MAY go down the same way. MAY
> > because nobody can say with certainty, BUT for
> > those some time away from having to decide,
> give
> > it a little time to play itself out, give it a
> > chance, and see what happens.
>
> Some may not be willing to take that risk. What
> "MAY" happen could have too large of an impact for
> some folks' tastes.


Valid points/arguments, just trying to suggest that for some that have the potential luxury of some time before they "have" to (or feel like they have to) make a decision, moving now is also not a trivial thing, and its impact to those families I would think is huge. And besides that, assuming a move within Fairfax, there is no guarantee that that the school area they are moving to won't change either.

I just wanted to report my personal experience regarding the benefits of AP. Our oldest daughter graduated from Oakton in 2001 (yes, Floris was in the Okaton district then) and had earned enough credits from her AP classes so that she finished all her coursework at UVA in December of her senior year. She stayed in Charlottesville and was able to land a prestigious internship with UVA's Center for Politics. Then she was able to graduate/walk with her class that next May. We saved the money for one full semester at UVA, and it enabled her to work at this great internship, which jumpstarted her career. One of her sorority sisters graduated with a full IB Diploma from Marshall High School and was hardly given any credit at all at UVA. These are important issues.

Also the AP credits enabled her to be exempt from a lot of the low level 101 courses. . .you remember 300 students in a lecture hall (the torture classes). She was able to begin her coursework her first year at UVA in higher level classes. So there are huge benefits to AP.

Floris mom of 16 years Wrote:
> Also the AP credits enabled her to be exempt from
> a lot of the low level 101 courses. . .you
> remember 300 students in a lecture hall (the
> torture classes). She was able to begin her
> coursework her first year at UVA in higher level
> classes. So there are huge benefits to AP.
-----
Which of course is the purpose of Advanced Placement exams in the first place, to prove you don't need to take the almost-remedial "Freshman 101" survey courses and instead to "place" out of them and into more "advanced" courses.

Thank you for getting us back to the main point of AP.

Sometimes a student may be better off taking an AP course NOT to place into something more "advanced" but rather to "get it out of the way." A liberal-arts type may be very happy not to have to take calculus in college because the course was already passed. In this case, a calculus taught over an entire school year by a qualified, experienced high school teacher may well be a far better experience than a ten-week course presented by a grad student.

Herndon2Oakton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Future Seahawk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Herndon2Oakton Wrote:
> > > In my humble opinion, this is a bit of
> hysteria
> > > and paranoia - and it sounds like some are
> > > thinking that far ahead. A lot of things can
> > > change over time, schools can become better,
> > > schools can become worse, curriculums can
> > change,
> > > SB makeup can change, laws can change, etc.
> >
> > For those of us with younger children, yes, it
> can
> > be expected that things will change with time -
> > perhaps many times over in the next 10 years.
> But
> > what you miss is the greater risk looming to
> those
> > with younger kids in the McNair/Floris area -
> we
> > have to go through this again next fall. Now
> I'd
> > love to believe that the Floris folks get a
> > reprieve next year if they were moved the HS
> level
> > this year, but the maps tell a possibly
> different
> > story. You could see neighborhoods in the span
> of
> > 2 years lose both their elementary school and
> high
> > schools to lower performing/failing schools.
> >
> > > Now, that whole move is all but forgotten.
> My
> > gut
> > > is that this MAY go down the same way. MAY
> > > because nobody can say with certainty, BUT
> for
> > > those some time away from having to decide,
> > give
> > > it a little time to play itself out, give it
> a
> > > chance, and see what happens.
> >
> > Some may not be willing to take that risk.
> What
> > "MAY" happen could have too large of an impact
> for
> > some folks' tastes.
>
>
> Valid points/arguments, just trying to suggest
> that for some that have the potential luxury of
> some time before they "have" to (or feel like they
> have to) make a decision, moving now is also not a
> trivial thing, and its impact to those families I
> would think is huge. And besides that, assuming a
> move within Fairfax, there is no guarantee that
> that the school area they are moving to won't
> change either.

To the point about staying in Fairfax - you are correct, there are few guarantees, if any. However, as we have seen through this process, those living in smaller HOA's or areas that generally don't get a fair shake at representation by their elected officials are most suspect. Finding areas that generally wield more power, have schools that are community based, etc. can generally reduce the likelihood of being repeatedly targeted for redistricting activities.

It's really too bad - the area around Floris has so much to offer families - close proximity to parks (Frying Pan is a favorite), grocery stores and restaurants, multiple access points for getting around, airport (without the flight pattern), etc. However, kids are not spending 30-40 hours each week with those activities. Schools should come first.

Is this a new addition to the list? Westfields is now on the open list for Pupil Placements. See FCPS boundary change info follow link to pupil placement info.

Absolutely! If a high schooler is capable and wants to work hard they can get many courses "out of the way." My daughter was very happy that she didn't have to take certain courses at UVA, and she watched a lot of her friends struggle and grumble through them, especially prerequisites. My youngest daughter is taking AP Art History currently as a sophomore at Westfield. Should she get a 4 or 5 on the exam in May, she will have earned 8 college credits. That is huge! And she has never worked so hard in her life. The class is extremely rigorous. She should earn something for her efforts. Plus the fact that this class has opened up a whole new world of interest to her. She has fallen in love with art history. Even if SL agrees to offer an AP course or 2, FCPS SB is still denying the Floris/FM/MI kids courses such as this. I can't believe AP Art History would be on SL's schedule in the near future.

Given the reputation of SL's art department, I can imagine that AP Art History would absolutely be on the short list if they were to add more AP's to the school.

so what is the reputation of SLHSs art department

SO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so what is the reputation of SLHSs art department


Strong

I highly doubt that AP Art History would make SL's short list as a course offering. There has to be enough interest/participation to justify the cost of adding a class. And considering that adding AP classes is rather controverial at SL, I'm sure the APs, if added, would be in the core areas.

Floris Mom of 16 years Wrote:
> ... My youngest daughter is taking AP Art History
> currently as a sophomore at Westfield. Should she
> get a 4 or 5 on the exam in May, she will have
> earned 8 college credits. That is huge! And she
> has never worked so hard in her life. The class
> is extremely rigorous. She should earn something
> for her efforts. Plus the fact that this class has
> opened up a whole new world of interest to her.
> She has fallen in love with art history. Even if
> SL agrees to offer an AP course or 2, FCPS SB is
> still denying the Floris/FM/MI kids courses such
> as this. I can't believe AP Art History would be
> on SL's schedule in the near future.

-----------
FM, people are going to start suspecting you of being me - I agree completely.

Westfield opens SIX AP courses to sophomores:

ADVANCED PLACEMENT WORLD HISTORY (234004)
It is important to note "Pre-AP" ninth-grade students generally take "Pre-AP Civilization 1" (237538) and NOT Pre IB world history. "Pre-IB" students ONLY spend the first four to six weeks of ninth grade of the "first half" of history. In contrast, "Pre-AP" students spend all freshmen year on early history so they are ready the AP World Civ class in sophomore year.
- - ["WORLD CIVILIZATION I Pre-AP Civilization 1 (237538) Students examine eras of world history from early ages to 1500 CE in this academic course. They examine the relationship among social, economic, and geopolitical developments in the times and places in which they occurred. They use the processes of conceptual and critical thinking to analyze historical and contemporary issues. Students are encouraged to think independently while developing group process, writing, and technology skills."]

ADVANCED PLACEMENT SPANISH LANGUAGE (557004)
Prerequisite: Level 4 or equivalency test

ADVANCED PLACEMENT COMPUTER SCIENCE AB (318504)
Prerequisite: Computer Science or AP Computer Science A or equivalent

ADVANCED PLACEMENT MUSIC THEORY (922604)
Prerequisite: Music Theory or equivalency exam

The following two tenth-grade accessible AP courses do NOT have prerequisites:

ADVANCED PLACEMENT EUROPEAN HISTORY (239904)

ADVANCED PLACEMENT ART: ART HISTORY (915104)

---------------
Course descriptions:

ADVANCED PLACEMENT WORLD HISTORY (234004)
Advanced Placement World History is designed to develop greater understanding of the evolution of global processes and contacts, in interaction with different types of human societies. This understanding is advanced through a combination of selective factual knowledge and appropriate analytical skills. Focused primarily on the past thousand years of the global experience, the course builds on an understanding of cultural, institutional, and technological precedents that, along with geography, set the human stage prior to 1000. This course may be used to satisfy the World History and Geography II requirement. Note: When taken as the WHG-II substitute course the WHG-II SOL Test is required.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT SPANISH LANGUAGE (557004)
Students study the use of language for active communication. Specifically, they understand the spoken target language in both formal and conversational situations. They express ideas accurately and resourcefully, both orally and in writing, with reasonable fluency, and they develop a vocabulary sufficiently ample for reading newspaper and magazine articles, contemporary literature, and other nontechnical writings. They receive extensive training in the organization and writing of compositions, review syntax, and study selected works by contemporary authors. Materials will include recordings, films, newspapers, and magazines.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT COMPUTER SCIENCE AB (318504)
The major emphases in this course are programming methodology, algorithms, and data structures. Applications of computing are used to develop students’ awareness of particular algorithms and data structures to provide topics for programming
assignments in which students can apply their knowledge. Java is the vehicle
for implementing solutions to problems.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT MUSIC THEORY (922604)
Students are given a solid foundation in intervals, pitch patterns, metric/rhythmic patterns, chords, and the terms that are part of a basic understanding of reading, performing, and listening to music. Analysis and some elementary composition, aural skills, sight-singing, and keyboard harmony will also be included.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT EUROPEAN HISTORY (239904)
The Advanced Placement Program in European History covers the basic chronology of events from 1450 to the present, from the High Renaissance to the recent past. Students are expected to demonstrate a knowledge of this basic chronology and of major events and trends in the intellectual-cultural, political-diplomatic and social-economic history of modern Europe. In addition, students are expected to
demonstrate an ability to analyze historical evidence and to express that
understanding and analysis in writing.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT ART: ART HISTORY (915104)
The Advanced Placement history of art program is designed to provide students with an understanding and enjoyment of works of art. Students should demonstrate a
high degree of commitment to academic work and possess academic skills needed to pursue a program designed to meet college standards. No prior experience in art studio or art history is assumed.

I'm also very concerned about the Japanese Immersion students at South Lakes, and let me try to explain why. Last year (school year 2006-2007) was the very first year that an AP Japanese course and exam was offered anywhere in the world. It took years and years of development, testing, revision, retesting to create the course and exam. Our daughter #1 (Oakton/UVA grad) was in the very first first grade class of Japanese Immersion when the program began in 1989. Once she got to 12th grade at Oakton, they had to design a Japanese Level 6 class for the few Immersion students remaining. Daughter #2 (Westfield grad/current sophomore at JMU) also took Japanese through 12th grade, and they combined the remaining JI kids in a Japanese 4/5 class. Once both girls got to UVA and JMU, for their declared majors, they had to fulfill foreign language credits at a college level. Because there was no AP course or exam available to exempt them, both had to take Japanese their first year in college. It was frustrating to both them and me that even after 12 years of Japanese, they still had to take it in college. There is an AP class and exam now both at Westfield and Oakton. When we were registering daughter #3 recently for next year's classes (she's a sophomore at Westfield) we tried to get her into the AP Japanese class as a junior. The Foreign Language chair and her Japanese teacher highly discouraged us from doing so. They said that it takes four years of very specific preparation to be successful on the AP Japanese exam. They told me that each high school is responsible for developing its own 4-year curriculum to prepare the kids for the exam. I, for one, have waited 18 years for this AP class and exam. I think that every Japanese Immersion student should have the right to take this. It is the culmination of 12 years of commitment and dedication to the program. Yes, I know that SL is offering an IB Japanese class. But based on my own personal experience with two colleges, unless you are successful on an AP exam, there will be additional foreign language requirements that you must fulfill at the university level. I would not want to deny daughter#3 from earning college credit after being immersed in Japanese for her entire school life. It would be interesting to find out if an IB Japanese exam is even available. Japanese is not a language that is studied very much in high schools around the country or world. That is why it took 18 years for the AP course/exam to be developed. If SL's response is that the JI kids can sit for the AP exam, I would question the preparation. Again, according to Westfield High School, it takes 4 full years of pre-AP Japanese to prepare. Just some thoughts to consider. . . .

"That is why it took 18 years for the AP course/exam to be developed. If SL's response is that the JI kids can sit for the AP exam, I would question the preparation. Again, according to Westfield High School, it takes 4 full years of pre-AP Japanese to prepare. Just some thoughts to consider. . . ."

That is what the Oakton principal said about the Japanese program. He said it takes a very long time to develop the program. He also said it is difficult to find highly educated teachers who would teach Japanese all the way to the highest level and at the AP level.

Floris Mom,

I should think that an IB language class would prepare students to sit for the AP language exam. Also I would guess that the IB language class would prepare them better than other IB classes for other AP exams because when learning a language, there is less variation on curriculum.

I am suprised to hear your daughter's language experience (12 years?) did not get them past the language requirement for UVA or JMU. I know that at WM, you only need to have gotten to level 4 of a language in high school to complete the requirement, no AP test needed. At VT, it is only level 3. Maybe your daughters were trying to get credit for more than just the gen-ed language requirement?

As for AP Art History, I also must disagree with you. The extremely strong art department at South Lakes would yield many students interested in taking AP Art History, especially since I do not think there is an IB equivelent. I would think that this would be offered before they doubled up on courses that already have an IB equivelent, or close to it.

spound Wrote:
> I should think that an IB language class would
> prepare students to sit for the AP language exam.
> Also I would guess that the IB language class
> would prepare them better than other IB classes
> for other AP exams because when learning a
> language, there is less variation on curriculum. ...
>
----------------
The latest I have seen in writing from FCPS is that "Students could sit for the IB and AP language exams at the end of their senior year. As with English, students would need practice with the format of the two tests since the format is significantly different. However, students in an IB HL modern language would NOT be prepared for the AP foreign language literature exam."

I speak no Japanese and can read even less, but perhaps someone fluent in Japanese could take a look at both IB and AP Japanese sample exams and tell the rest of us how they compare.

Since the AP Japanese exam is so new, each AP high school will be fine tuning their curriculum over the next several years to support the exam. Based on the scores of the AP exam last year at Westfield, the foreign language department has revised what they are teaching this year. This will go on for several years. It is for this reason, and the high degree of difficulty of the exam, that Westfield highly discourages juniors from taking AP Japanese.

Regarding the foreign language requirements for my two daughters in college, daughter #1 was a Foreign Affairs major, and was required to fulfill a 300 level requirement for this degree. Fortunatley UVA has a placement exam, and she placed into a 300 level class her first year. At JMU, daughter #2, for her major, had to complete foreign language at an intermediate level. Again, they had a placement exam and she tested into intermediate Japanese her freshman year. The AP credit would have been very nice to have, however,

I guess the bigger issue is that before redistricting areas into SL, all of these questions should have been answered. No one knows. . . will the IB Japanese classes prepare the kids for the AP exam? Will the JI kids be able to sit for the exam? Will SL be offering AP classes, like AP Art History. Again, the entire process is flawed. Forcing AP kids into an IB school may be like trying to fit square pegs into round holes. The SB should have thought through all of these issues, and given us clear-cut answers BEFORE the decision was made. I hope that the SL community can understand how these problems are causing great frustration to the affected communities. (Aside from the fact that this is my slice of Floris' third high school in 7 years.)

By the way, the AP Course and Exam is in Japanese Language and Culture. It is not just a test on the Japanese language. Here is the College Board's description of the course:

The first AP Japanese Language and Culture courses will be offered worldwide in the fall of 2006, followed by the exam in May of 2007.

The AP Japanese Exam will assess students' interpersonal communication skills, their abilities to present and interpret language in spoken and written forms, and their functional familiarity with Japanese culture.

Frequently Asked Questions
What level of Japanese language ability and what aspects of Japanese culture will be assessed in the exam?
The AP Japanese Course and Examination will be grounded in the "Standards for Japanese Language Learning" found in the Standards for Foreign Language Learning in the 21st Century. The AP Japanese Language and Culture examination will be appropriate for students who have completed approximately 300 hours of instruction at the college level. The course and exam will incorporate Japanese cultural information within the teaching of reading, writing, and speaking the language. The specific aspects of Japanese culture to be included in the course will be posted here at a later date.

How can I find out if AP Japanese Language and Culture will be available in my high school?
Please check with your Japanese teacher, your school's AP Coordinator, or principal/Head of School to find out whether your school will implement AP Japanese Language and Culture in its inaugural year beginning in fall 2006. If your teachers and school administrators are unaware of this new course, encourage them to visit AP Central for more information.
Back to top
The kids will be tested and taught much more than just the Japanese language.

Floris Mom of 16 Years Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since the AP Japanese exam is so new, each AP high
> school will be fine tuning their curriculum over
> the next several years to support the exam. Based
> on the scores of the AP exam last year at
> Westfield, the foreign language department has
> revised what they are teaching this year. This
> will go on for several years. It is for this
> reason, and the high degree of difficulty of the
> exam, that Westfield highly discourages juniors
> from taking AP Japanese.
>
> Regarding the foreign language requirements for my
> two daughters in college, daughter #1 was a
> Foreign Affairs major, and was required to fulfill
> a 300 level requirement for this degree.
> Fortunatley UVA has a placement exam, and she
> placed into a 300 level class her first year. At
> JMU, daughter #2, for her major, had to complete
> foreign language at an intermediate level. Again,
> they had a placement exam and she tested into
> intermediate Japanese her freshman year. The AP
> credit would have been very nice to have, however,


I am glad I read through more posts, as I was going to ask you why they didn't take the placement exams at their respective universities.

Out of curiosity, are you saying the AP credit would have been nice because they wouldn't have had to take the placement exam, or because they could have earned credit above what the placement exam offered?

I include my original post since my post here is clarifying my original post. Apologies for the excess of > characters.

leave_us_alone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
>
> > If the boundary lines had been re-drawn between
> > Oakton, Madison, and Langley, I don't think
> > anyone would have cared -- not in the way people are
> > in an uproar now.
>
> You are dead wrong on this. Langley and Madison
> will not be in uproar but by this time they will
> have a lawsuit filed and Stu Gibson would have to
> answer for all those fat campaign donations.

I was talking about a boundary adjustment affecting *ONLY* Oakton, Madison, and Langley. Do you really see folks complaining about being put into one of those three schools the same way folks are complaining about being put into South Lakes?

> > People also don't like the IB program South
> > Lakes uses; I'd guesstimate maybe 20-30% of affected
> > parents might give SL a try if they ditched IB.
>
> Ditch IB for AP and we will gladly come to SL.
> But don't ask us to come first and then work
> towards replacing IB. These are valuable years of
> our Children's education and we can't waste them
> hoping Stu Gibson and SL PTSA will have change of
> heart.

'They' in that sentence meant FCPS and SL administration, not the parents. Also, even if SL ditched IB, there's the 'gangbanger' rep SL has that would keep some of the parents away.

yes, you can pupil place your child using both AP and another class not offered at Herndon with out recommendation from your child's teacher.

check out CAPS webpage for current info. www.fairfaxcaps.org

If the SB reeally wanted to play hard ball they would have implemented AP at SL. In leaving IB in place, they seek to improve their image with "some" of their constituants that are allowed to pupil place. I predict a large number will be able to do this.

Letters arrived in the mail today directed at rising 9th graders, including a schedule of spring events at SL. I feel sort of bad for the SL community, most of which have not been as obnoxious as some of the posters on here. It's not their fault that we prefer our original schools. If the RD had been handled correctly, or better yet if the SB had gotten serious about figuring out why people are avoiding SL (and I believe that people are avoiding it, including ways that aren't easily quantifiable, such as moving when kids approach high school), then maybe the school could actually have been improved. The SL folks who were dead set against a magnet and against changing to AP have really created a problem. Although the SB might not have wanted those things either, if certain members of the SL community had not been so vocally opposed, maybe they would be possible. Now lots of people will pupil place out, but I predict that FCPS will figure out how to tighten up on that a bit more each year. Also, it won't be so easy when there are no buses. Then we're back to thinking about moving. It's sort of sad for many people at SL and at Floris, FM, and MI. I'd like to see everyone get what they want, but I don't see how that's possible now. (cue violins)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2008 08:34PM by fm/c/o parent.

To AP vs. IB:

Yes, if there had been an AP Japanese exam, and if they had passed with a 4 or 5, they would have been exempt from their foreign language requirements at both UVA and JMU. As you can see from the description of the Course and Exam, it is equivalent to a 300 level college course.

Without the AP test, there was no way to exempt them, even though both had studied Japanese for 12 years. There was only a placement test at the university itself.

For the current families in this area of Floris , Fox Mill and MI moving is the only long term viable option. When the existing families move away, their houses will be bought by people who know that it feeds into SL and are ok with that. More than likely these area will gray out just like reston, as families with children will avoid it. But since this area is centrally located, there will be lot of other people who do not have school age kids that will move in the area.

fm/c/o parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Letters arrived in the mail today directed at
> rising 9th graders, including a schedule of spring
> events at SL. I feel sort of bad for the SL
> community, most of which have not been as
> obnoxious as some of the posters on here. It's not
> their fault that we prefer our original schools.
> If the RD had been handled correctly, or better
> yet if the SB had gotten serious about figuring
> out why people are avoiding SL (and I believe that
> people are avoiding it, including ways that aren't
> easily quantifiable, such as moving when kids
> approach high school), then maybe the school could
> actually have been improved. The SL folks who were
> dead set against a magnet and against changing to
> AP have really created a problem. Although the SB
> might not have wanted those things either, if
> certain members of the SL community had not been
> so vocally opposed, maybe they would be possible.
> Now lots of people will pupil place out, but I
> predict that FCPS will figure out how to tighten
> up on that a bit more each year. Also, it won't be
> so easy when there are no buses. Then we're back
> to thinking about moving. It's sort of sad for
> many people at SL and at Floris, FM, and MI. I'd
> like to see everyone get what they want, but I
> don't see how that's possible now. (cue violins)