Behavioral Study on Students Stirs Debate
Fairfax Report Finds Possible Racial Bias

By Michael Alison Chandler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 10, 2008; A01



For public schools in the No Child Left Behind era, it has become routine to analyze test scores and other academic indicators by race and ethnicity. But the Fairfax County School Board, to promote character education, has discovered the pitfalls of applying the same analytical techniques to measures of student behavior, especially when the findings imply disparities in behavior among racial, ethnic and other groups.

The county School Board, which oversees one of the country's largest and most diverse suburban school systems, is scheduled to vote tonight on whether to accept a staff report that concludes, in part, that black and Hispanic students and special education students received lower marks than white and Asian American students for demonstration of "sound moral character and ethical judgment."

Such findings have prompted a debate on the potential bias in how teachers evaluate student behavior and how the school system analyzes and presents information about race. Board member Martina A. "Tina" Hone (At Large), who is African American, called the school system's decision to break down data by race "potentially damaging and hurtful."

The report on student achievement under "Essential Life Skills," first presented to the board March 27, quantifies the moral-ethical gap this way: "Grade 3 students who received 'Good' or better ranged from a low near 80 percent . . . for Black and Special Education students, to about 95 percent . . . for Asian and White students." The report also indicated that Hispanic third-graders scored 86 percent on the measure.

The findings on third-grade morality reflected the number of elementary students who received "good" or "outstanding" marks on report cards in such areas as "accepts responsibility," "listens to and follows directions," "respects personal and school property," "complies with established rules" and "follows through on assignments." Such categories, which draw mainly on teacher observations, are common.

For older students, the report's findings on moral character were based on the number of state-reported disciplinary infractions, a measure where minority students tend to be overrepresented. Disparities among groups were found, however, to be slimmer for eighth-graders and negligible for 12th-graders.

The analysis also reported gaps among groups of students in skills such as being able to "contribute effectively within a group dynamic," resolve conflicts and make healthy life choices.

School officials said they were seeking to broaden the definition of student achievement and devise new ways to measure progress toward key goals to prepare a 21st-century workforce.

Officials acknowledge that their initial findings are not conclusive. Hone intends to propose that a vote on the report be delayed until the School Board and staff members have had time to discuss the merits of data analysis according to race.

"We have to be very, very careful about [how] the story is being told and have all kinds of asterisks and footnotes, and say, 'We recognize that some of this might not be the child's fault,' " Hone said at the March 27 meeting.

In an interview later she said, "There is a fundamental difference between looking at race vis-a-vis the achievement gap in academics, where you have hard data," and gaps in areas subject to possible teacher bias.

The Fairfax school system is the region's largest, with more than 165,700 students. About 48 percent are white, 11 percent black, 17 percent Hispanic and 18 percent Asian American, and 6 percent are listed as other or unspecified. Two of the board's 12 members belong to racial or ethnic minorities.

The Fairfax initiative, prompted by the board, comes as schools nationwide are pushing to enhance character education, emphasizing the teaching of social and emotional skills. The thinking is that students need more than reading and math skills mandated by the federal No Child Left Behind law.

"More districts are finding that just focusing on [test scores] is not getting them there," said Merle Schwartz, director of education and research at the Character Education Partnership, an advocacy group in Washington. "There is something missing. But how to do this systematically and how to measure it? We don't have all the answers yet."

In 2006, after 33 public meetings, the board approved the goals for life skills and sought to define behavior that reflects sound moral character, such as "Model honesty and integrity" and "Respect people, property and authority." School officials, at the board's direction, then hunted for relevant indicators to measure progress and analyzed them.

In some cases, sufficient data were not available to make a meaningful analysis of some goals. Officials said they intend to revise report cards and create surveys for teachers, students and high school graduates to assess life-skills goals.

School Board Chairman Daniel G. Storck (Mount Vernon) emphasized that the analysis is preliminary and acknowledged that the board needs to evaluate whether a race-based analysis is appropriate and helps the board further its goal of helping every child in the school system acquire these skills.

"What we are doing [now] and we are doing three years from now will probably be pretty different," he said.

Schools Superintendent Jack D. Dale said some administrators were "surprised" by the findings that emerged from the analysis. He said looking more deeply into the data could lead to new understanding about social and cultural differences in students, something he views as critical in a system with students from about 200 countries.

Board member Ilryong Moon (At Large), a Korean American, said he was "perplexed" that disparities in measures of character education seemed to echo academic achievement gaps.

Educators typically examine racial and ethnic patterns in academic data to spot problems and direct resources to students who need them most. Members of the NAACP's Fairfax chapter criticized the school system's use of such methods for the character education analysis.

"I don't think you can classify a whole group and say they have lower character or morality," said Janice Winters, a member of the chapter's education committee. "It sends a poor message to the students: 'Oh, I'm black, and they don't expect me to behave.' "

Winters said the school system should take steps to ensure that teachers are unbiased in their assessment of students. "That has been an issue over time," she said.

Some school officials agreed with the importance of teacher training. They said, for example, that there should be a more uniform definition of disruptive behavior.

Moon and some other board members said it is valuable to learn about differences in the way students are being assessed.

"Do we just brush this aside as if it never existed or do we do something constructive?" Moon said.

Moon said he wants school officials to study whether teachers "have a full understanding of whom they teach, and their different learning styles and family backgrounds."

The Washington Post Metro Section
A Report on Moral Character Best Left Behind
__

By Marc Fisher
Thursday, April 10, 2008; B01



What would drive one of the nation's most successful and respected school systems to report which racial and ethnic groups demonstrate the soundest moral character and ethical judgment? How did the Fairfax County schools come to put out statistics claiming that black and Hispanic students are less likely than their white and Asian peers to "possess the skills to manage and resolve conflict"?

Why will the school board convene today to talk about what one of its members calls a "morality gap" that divides the county's racial and ethnic groups?

For decades, schools have been asked to step in where too many parents have failed, taking on the job of teaching values, limits and the ability to tell right from wrong. But while there is a consensus that too many children lack the moral principles that should be planted before they ever set foot in a school, there is far less agreement about how to deal with those kids.

Two years ago, Fairfax, like a growing number of school systems across the country, decided to make "essential life skills" as much a goal as academics. The school board decreed that by the end of high school, "All students will demonstrate the aptitude, attitude and skills to lead responsible, fulfilling and respectful lives."

Who could oppose such a goal, right? So the school board tells the administration to get to work. Anyone who has set foot in a school since the dawn of the No Child Left Behind era knows what happened next.

Administrators, principals and teachers calculated how to determine which students "demonstrate sound moral character" and "courageously identify and pursue their personal goals," and which don't.

Then, as if that weren't difficult and subjective enough, the educators decided to collect data, chop it up by racial and ethnic groups, and digest it into a nifty little scorecard with explosive nuggets like this: Third-grade students who scored "good" or better on work habits "ranged from a low near 80 percent for Black and Special Education students to about 95 percent for Asian and white students."

Even if the basis for such conclusions weren't as flimsy as one of those online polls that ask who is going to win the next "American Idol" contest, what possible purpose could this information serve?

Fairfax School Board member Tina Hone walked off the dais after the data were reported two weeks ago. She hopes to persuade her colleagues to at least delay a vote on the report, if not reject it, and tell the system to go back to the drawing board.

"I agree that our role, especially for kids caught on the wrong side of the tracks, is to fill in gaps left in the home," Hone says. "What I don't think is wise is reporting data by race on having good character. If there's ever a place where teaching to everybody will raise all ships, it's in teaching character. We should be teaching fair play and a moral compass to every child."

Fairfax's measurements of moral character look crisply quantitative on paper, but read behind the numbers and you see scores built on a foundation of nonsense: Number of F's based on attendance; number of discipline referrals issued; teacher observations; surveys students fill out about their life skills -- a load of data, signifying . . . what?

Let's assume green people turn out to be collectively less moral than purple people: What do you do about that? Hone still recalls the powerful impact Aesop's fables had when she read them in school. Great teachers find universal parables in classic literature, in tales of history, in the great moral stands taken by the heroes they present to children.

But in Fairfax, and in schools across the land, the instinct -- no, the compulsion -- is to amass data points and "disaggregate," ed-lingo for looking at children not as individuals but as members of a group. The move to quantify grows from a religious devotion to test scores, a faith that the shaping of a mind can be mapped like a cancer cell and expressed as a number. And the resort to race stems from the balkanization of society, the self-destructive notion that we are a collection of groups rather than a nation of individuals who believe what it says on the coins in your pocket: e pluribus unum -- out of many, one.

"The superintendent told me that the reason they broke it down by race was that two years ago, the board decided to report all data by race," Hone said. "That was part of the No Child Left Behind frenzy. This is a classic case of a pendulum overswing."

Hone believes that as long as the achievement gap that divides the races persists, it's important to break out test scores by race. Otherwise, the failure to push underachieving students up to par might be hidden beneath overall strong numbers in a system such as Fairfax's.

But discerning right from wrong goes to the intimate core of the relationship between student and teacher, Hone says. It's just not something that you can reduce to a number. "This is on the teachers," she says. "It's not a problem of one group of kids. If I as a teacher saw a kid being left out because they were a nerd or fat, it was my job to figure out how to get that child together with the others."

Just as solutions to a child's struggle to learn to read must be molded to each kid's needs, so too must each moral compass be fixed, one at a time.

Join me at noon today for

"Potomac Confidential" at

I just read Steve Hunt's letter and couldn't agree more. Ever since the boundary study started last summer and following the screwed up redistricting process, I could not help, but wonder why the hell did fcps use the socio-economic factor as one of the eight criterias? I have always believed that no matter what the race or wealth status of a student, every student is entitled to a good education, It takes a whole village to help the students succeed in school,,parents, teachers and the community and the students applying themselves to school in order to have a positive school education. Even my parents who have been long time residents of Fairfax County said the SB is the worst they have seen in years, For those who are going to be parents or already are parents of fcps students, please pay attention to what the SB is doing these days. Make those critical voting decisions for the next SB election and future SB elections.

this sb is the worst ever. A new low

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just read Steve Hunt's letter and couldn't agree
> more. Ever since the boundary study started last
> summer and following the screwed up redistricting
> process, I could not help, but wonder why the hell
> did fcps use the socio-economic factor as one of
> the eight criterias? I have always believed that
> no matter what the race or wealth status of a
> student, every student is entitled to a good
> education, It takes a whole village to help the
> students succeed in school,,parents, teachers and
> the community and the students applying themselves
> to school in order to have a positive school
> education. Even my parents who have been long
> time residents of Fairfax County said the SB is
> the worst they have seen in years, For those who
> are going to be parents or already are parents of
> fcps students, please pay attention to what the SB
> is doing these days. Make those critical voting
> decisions for the next SB election and future SB
> elections.

this sb is the worst ever Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> this sb is the worst ever. A new low
>
> Baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I just read Steve Hunt's letter and couldn't
> agree
> > more. ...

This board is a bit better than the prior group only because there is some discussion-debate. They all thought that getting rd of brickner and Thompson would result in a congenial work environment. Dumbasses. They're a school board- they are supposed to work -debate-argue not always agree with each other like sheep before a dog. What we need are the border collies not the geese on the golf course.

Now they might as well all quit or not even show up - the only votes that count are Storck and Bradsher. Hyland -davis-Albo WERE NOT elected as the at-large school board members.

but they sure do function as them- do hair make-up and costumes and they can sit in for Hone, Raney, and moon. Who should be who?

[My dig at the Supremely Imortant South County Middle School. perhaps give them a bigger addition plus a school and indoor/outdoor pools with 3 articficial turf fields. they do have an outdoor all weather sports bubble. Anyone else get one of those when overcrowded?

This school board is like the energize bunny, it keeps on giving one F__K up after another.

The latest F__K up is the racist Fairfax County Public School Report which Finds Possible Racial Bias in FCPS.

BUNNY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This school board is like the energize bunny, it
> keeps on giving one F__K up after another.
>
> The latest F__K up is the racist Fairfax County
> Public School Report which Finds Possible Racial
> Bias in FCPS.

Guess what? The lawsuit on redistricting and the 2000 students? FCPS now has schemes to add onto South County which might make it a 3000 capacity high school plus a middle school. If they do an addition also the place will still be bigger than 2000 at the high school level since no one will leave for Lake Braddock. Funny thing when involved with a lawsuit with that being one of the issues.

This latest gem of a FCPS report just adds credibility to the lawsuit against RD. The SB obviously is totally ignorant about race, socio-economic issues, and is just looking for ways to cover-up problems. I don't pretend to have all the answers as to why an achievement gap exists nor how to fix it, but I think that doing a study that concludes that some minorities have worse "character" is probably the WORST thing the school system could have done. Really, could there have been a dumber idea? I sure how that the anti-RD lawyers can make some good use of this.

how's the lawsuit look now? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This latest gem of a FCPS report just adds
> credibility to the lawsuit against RD. The SB
> obviously is totally ignorant about race,
> socio-economic issues, and is just looking for
> ways to cover-up problems. I don't pretend to have
> all the answers as to why an achievement gap
> exists nor how to fix it, but I think that doing a
> study that concludes that some minorities have
> worse "character" is probably the WORST thing the
> school system could have done. Really, could there
> have been a dumber idea? I sure how that the
> anti-RD lawyers can make some good use of this.


Looks like the same loser(s) as before.

Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The absence of Langley in the redistricting tells
> you it was about socio-economic rebalancing.
> Madison Island with its 35 students was the
> sacrificial lamb- just to make it look good.

Sorry, that won't convince a court. This is a civil action, the onus is on the plaintiff. I'm not disagreeing with your logic, but it doesn't answer my question.

> This school system doesn't have a clue what to do
> with the persistent minority achievement gaps-so
> they are engaging in a big reshuffle.

> All the other school districts have had these
> plans in place and are chipping away at the
> gaps-we are a little late to the party.

Indeed.

BUNNY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This school board is like the energize bunny, it
> keeps on giving one F__K up after another.
>
> The latest F__K up is the racist Fairfax County
> Public School Report which Finds Possible Racial
> Bias in FCPS.

No one on the school board knew before this week that the black students had more behavioral problems than Asian kids? They never noticed that more Black kids and Hispanics were suspended, expelled, had bad grades, than whites and Asians? DUH. Are they blind and deaf? Everyone in the county knows that more Black kids have behavior problems, get suspended, drop out, get expelled, and go to jail, than Asian and whites. Why is this even news?

The SB is falling all over each other tonight to run away from the "morality gap" study. And of course it's everybody else's fault that this fiasco occurred and not the staff or the SB.

What a bunch of hacks!

>>>Board member Ilryong Moon (At Large), a Korean American, said he was "perplexed" that disparities in measures of character education seemed to echo academic achievement gaps. <<<

PUHLEEEEEZZZEEEE..................Moon is NOT that stupid. HEEEEELLLLLLOOOOOO..............culture matters.................

how's the lawsuit look now? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This latest gem of a FCPS report just adds
> credibility to the lawsuit against RD. The SB
> obviously is totally ignorant about race,
> socio-economic issues, and is just looking for
> ways to cover-up problems. I don't pretend to have
> all the answers as to why an achievement gap
> exists nor how to fix it, but I think that doing a
> study that concludes that some minorities have
> worse "character" is probably the WORST thing the
> school system could have done. Really, could there
> have been a dumber idea? I sure how that the
> anti-RD lawyers can make some good use of this.

Every cloud has a silver lining. Those dopes thought they could teach morals and character, toward their goal of making everyone equal. It backfired, big time. Those idiots knew that more Black kids are suspended and expelled than Asians and whites. More are in jail too. Duh. Not rocket scientists here in FCPS.

What the hell did the expect staff to tell them?

BUNNY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This school board is like the energize bunny, it
> keeps on giving one F__K up after another.
>
> The latest F__K up is the racist Fairfax County
> Public School Report which Finds Possible Racial
> Bias in FCPS.

Throw teachers under the bus. It's all THEIR FAULT that more black kids get in trouble than Asian kids.

Let's not trample the blacks and hispanics here...

There are good reasons more of them get in trouble than whites and asians - and those reasons are income, two parent families, parents who are educated, etc.

Some people that are raised in these environments do succeed but it's a lot harder, therefore you get fewer results. And, yes more blacks and hispanics have these issues to deal with than others.

No need to have a study to figure that out, but the dopes on the school board that we elected have yet to do so. Good for Tina Hone/WP for calling them out.

We ought to be helping those in need that are making an effort succeed - race does not play into it. There are plenty of well off black and hispanic families in this area that don't to have their SAT and GPAs padded to get into colleges. And there are some white and asian kids who need some help to succeed.

SB IS RACIST Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Behavioral Study on Students Stirs Debate
> Fairfax Report Finds Possible Racial Bias
>
This may be an interesting topic to debate, but it really should be moved to its own thread. At 285 pages the HS Redistricting topic is nearly useless and reads like one long pissing match. While there may be some overlap between the student achievement report and RD, mixing them is going to make it impossible for people to contribute in a meaningful way.

STFU

Clearly most posters have only read the article and not the actual report put out by the nitwits in FCPS.

The source of the data as to whether a kid is moral or not is from FCPS. They used assessments on report cards for goodness sakes and REPORTED disciplinary offenses-we know how accurate the school safety report card data is, right??

The ONLY data that is worth a hill of beans came from the student surveys of 8th and 12th graders. And guess what??? Whites were the largest users of illegal substances-by their own admission.

The funny thing is the Blacks and Latinos are PUNISHED by the FCPS ZT NAZIS at a rate of up to four times greater than Whites.

Given that disconnect how can you possibly put any credibility in anything that comes from FCPS on who is moral and who isn't?

This report was yet another embarassment to this school district. They are truly a bunch of idiots who don't hae a clue.

Lee Parent Wrote:
> ... The ONLY data that is worth a hill of beans came
> from the student surveys of 8th and 12th graders. ...
---------------

I disagree. Many if not most people lie on surveys.

The "worst behaving" teens do not even show up on surveys of high school students because they have dropped out.

If Fairfax County wanted accurate data other measures are available. Children who are obese have a "life style" problem of some sort. So do high school students with traffic tickets.

Is no one else concerned that Tina Horne is blaming the TEACHERS who observe some students exhibit more behavioral problems than others?

I think you need to find out how this survey was conducted-how big was the sample, which schools were selected, how were special ed students used, etc.

Both my 8th and 12th graders participated in the survey and they both said it was no big deal. They said the kids felt comfortable answering the questions honestly. After they filled it out, it was collected in a folder by the teacher and supposedly not looked at.

I do agree that many kids who drop out don't show up-but drop outs are an establishment problem. I resent when educators blame kids for dropping out of school. Clearly, most of the time, the school is to blame when a kid drops out.

To prove how concerned FCPS is with dropouts, the MSAOC (Minority Achievement Committee) took the time to produce a dropout report last August. In the report they urged School Board members to address the concerns in the report by October of last year. Guess what? The report is still in draft form gathering dust.

This school district talks the talk about how concerned they are about minorities in our schools but their actions or inactions speak louder than their words.

The latest news article says that the SB delayed voting on the report. What is there to vote on? The credibility? Actions? I don't get it.

Lee Parent Wrote:
> ... I do agree that many kids who drop out don't show
> up-but drop outs are an establishment problem. I
> resent when educators blame kids for dropping out
> of school. Clearly, most of the time, the school
> is to blame when a kid drops out.
>
> To prove how concerned FCPS is with dropouts, the
> MSAOC (Minority Achievement Committee) took the
> time to produce a dropout report last August. In
> the report they urged School Board members to
> address the concerns in the report by October of
> last year. Guess what? The report is still in
> draft form gathering dust.
>
> This school district talks the talk about how
> concerned they are about minorities in our schools
> but their actions or inactions speak louder than
> their words.

We agree dropouts are a problem that FCPS needs to document and then address.

We disagree in that I do NOT believe the school is to "blame" "most of the time" when students drop out. The adults in the child's home situation must accept primary blame.

Surveys Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee Parent Wrote:
> > ... The ONLY data that is worth a hill of beans
> came
> > from the student surveys of 8th and 12th
> graders. ...
> ---------------
>
> I disagree. Many if not most people lie on
> surveys.
>
> The "worst behaving" teens do not even show up on
> surveys of high school students because they have
> dropped out.
>
> If Fairfax County wanted accurate data other
> measures are available. Children who are obese
> have a "life style" problem of some sort. So do
> high school students with traffic tickets.
>
> Is no one else concerned that Tina Horne is
> blaming the TEACHERS who observe some students
> exhibit more behavioral problems than others?

Gotta love the SB, everytime they screw up they throw the teachers under the bus. If only our teachers weren't so racist. IF only they didn't notice Black kids who act up in school.

Let's face it,, our school board can't handle the truth. They fall apart every time they hear it.

dont understand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The latest news article says that the SB delayed
> voting on the report. What is there to vote on?
> The credibility? Actions? I don't get it.\

The report by staff. That is their question. No one knows what 'accept' means, or what will happen if they reject it.

What is wrong with these people? They cannot handle anything. They set this up, got an answer they do not like, and now they're scratching their little pea brains, totally befuddled.

The vote was whether to accept the report-whatever the hell that means.

How come the SB members were not bothered by the report before The WAPO article?

Weird, huh?


To Surveys-

I pray you are not one of the cynical, burnt out educators in one of our classrooms-or worse, one of Dale's many ineffective lieutenants who is creating these disastrous studies.

I see you are one of the dying breed disciples who are still playing the blame game in education. According to you, there is nothing the schools can do to educate these kids who come from troubled or impoverished homes. Mom or dad is too busy trying to figure out how to keep the lights on or put food in the fridge so they really can't help Johnny with his homework after their 12 hour workday.

Let's do this. Let's round up all these kids somewhere-let's see we are going to need a place with a lot of seating capacity-how about Westfield's football stadium? Now we will have Jack Dale, and of course, you should speak as well, tell these at risk kids that they come from a crappy home or their parents are unable to look after their schoolwork, but that we at Fairfax County-even though we spend $13k per kid, can't possible give them an education because we don't know how. Tell them that even though many of our school's average scores are well below state averages we still are doing everything we possible can to help them succeed.

Now we have about 12,000 students per grade in FCPS and dropout rates have been reported anywhere from 5% to 40% so let's average it to 25%. We will talk to just the 8-12 graders. So, let's tell 15000 students that it is their parent's fault that they won't graduate from high school. Great idea- SURVEYS.

Maybe you could create some sort of business plan for this great idea of yours and submit it to The Gates Foundation and maybe they will give you a grant to execute your brilliant strategy?

Lee Parent,

While I agree that FCPS has major problems regarding minority performance gaps, the school system, here or anywhere else, will never be a magic pill that will solve all the problems with dropouts, etc. First & foremost, the school's job is to EDUCATE, not raise our kids. Without cooperation from the adults in these kids' lives, they will always be more susceptable to dropping out, getting in trouble etc. It is NOT an educational problem, it is more a SOCIETY problem,and the school system can't solve it, nor is it necessarily the school's job to do so.

Lee Parent,

All parents are overworked and stressed sometime or another, but they have eighteen years to talk to and guide their children. I wrote, in part, "The adults in the child's home situation must accept primary blame" and you responded, in part, as quoted below. Somehow you seem to feel I think the schools can "do nothing" but then you suggest I give an inspirational speech. That is the parents' job - not mine and not Jake Dale's.

Lee had 512 juniors in Sep 2005 but in June 2007 that same group of students was down to only 434. 78 of last year's potential grads, about one a week, disappeared from your high school. Is this the fault of Lee High School? If so, why are YOUR children still there?

--------------------------

Lee Parent Wrote:
> I see you are one of the dying breed disciples who
> are still playing the blame game in education.
> According to you, there is nothing the schools can
> do to educate these kids who come from troubled or
> impoverished homes. Mom or dad is too busy trying
> to figure out how to keep the lights on or put
> food in the fridge so they really can't help
> Johnny with his homework after their 12 hour
> workday.
>
> Let's do this. Let's round up all these kids
> somewhere-let's see we are going to need a place
> with a lot of seating capacity-how about
> Westfield's football stadium? Now we will have
> Jack Dale, and of course, you should speak as
> well, tell these at risk kids that they come from
> a crappy home or their parents are unable to look
> after their schoolwork, but that we at Fairfax
> County-even though we spend $13k per kid, can't
> possible give them an education because we don't
> know how. Tell them that even though many of our
> school's average scores are well below state
> averages we still are doing everything we possible
> can to help them succeed.
>

Another Lurker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS is Racist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I can not believe this School Board. Is
> > everything about race to them? Why is this
> > becoming a factor in virtually every board
> > discussion of late?
>
> Can someone point to any written evidence that the
> SB acted based on socioeconomic status? I was out
> of town for the third Town Hall meeting, but my
> memory from the other two (which may be faulty, of
> course!) is that the handouts listed ESOL
> percentages, but didn't explicitly cite them as
> criteria. In fact, ISTR someone asking why the
> percentages were even listed, and the answer was
> "We always list them".
>
> If the lawsuit has any hope of success, it seems
> to me that this is a critical issue: if there's no
> real evidence that SEO (==race) was an issue, then
> the Dillon count cannot possibly prevail.


One reason CAPS is going to fail is that socioeconomic status does NOT equal race. The SB and staff have NEVER addressed race in any of this. It is the anti-RD people who keep harping on a link. They are the ones who want to make race an issue. Those supporting the boundary change have never said race is a factor in this, other than one or two pointing out the fact that SOME anti-RD people have made statements that they didn't want to go to South Lakes because it has blacks and hispanics. Now, that IS a race issue. But it's on the backs of the (one hopes few) anti-RD racists, not the pro-boundary-change folks who were asking for equal resource allocation.

TheRaceThing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another Lurker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FCPS is Racist Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I can not believe this School Board. Is
> > > everything about race to them? Why is this
> > > becoming a factor in virtually every board
> > > discussion of late?
> >
> > Can someone point to any written evidence that
> the
> > SB acted based on socioeconomic status? I was
> out
> > of town for the third Town Hall meeting, but my
> > memory from the other two (which may be faulty,
> of
> > course!) is that the handouts listed ESOL
> > percentages, but didn't explicitly cite them as
> > criteria. In fact, ISTR someone asking why the
> > percentages were even listed, and the answer
> was
> > "We always list them".
> >
> > If the lawsuit has any hope of success, it
> seems
> > to me that this is a critical issue: if there's
> no
> > real evidence that SEO (==race) was an issue,
> then
> > the Dillon count cannot possibly prevail.
>
>
> One reason CAPS is going to fail is that
> socioeconomic status does NOT equal race. The SB
> and staff have NEVER addressed race in any of
> this. It is the anti-RD people who keep harping on
> a link. They are the ones who want to make race an
> issue. Those supporting the boundary change have
> never said race is a factor in this, other than
> one or two pointing out the fact that SOME anti-RD
> people have made statements that they didn't want
> to go to South Lakes because it has blacks and
> hispanics. Now, that IS a race issue. But it's on
> the backs of the (one hopes few) anti-RD racists,
> not the pro-boundary-change folks who were asking
> for equal resource allocation.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

This kind of rubbish drives me crazy - especially having watched public hearings where 2 SLHS teachers accused anyone who objected to the forceable RDing of their kids of racism - its easy to go back and review the MP3's

The accusation of racism has been the pro-RD rant time and time again - race has always been the pro-RD tool of choice

"If you don't want your kid moved into a failing school with high droputs and low scores you must be a racist"

'Equal resource allocation' - again complete rubbish - SL already had 40% higher staff:student ratios and computer:student ratios

The only resource they wanted was white and asian middle class kids who would actually get on and learn, in order to boost average figures

SURVEYS-

I never suggested that you give an inspirational speech-on the contrary-you were to give a speech to 15000 students that will drop out of FCPS in the next 5 years, that they don't matter and that the schools have done all they can to help them. Be sure to blame their parents-so constructive.

You sure are defensive of Jack Dale-does he sign your paycheck?

Most policymakers are coming to accept the theory that what matters most in the schools is QUALITY TEACHERS-not the ones logging the most years-but the ones who add value in the classroom. Unfortunately the teacher's union have created major roadblocks for us getting rid of the lousy ones-so they stay amd they are ineffective.

Over the years, I have met some of the most wonderful, caring teachers and I have come across some real bad ones. Unfortunately, we don't run schools like businesses-the bad ones get to stay-lucky us.

As far as your insults directed at Lee, like most schools we have some challenges. I am troubled when kids don't graduate-I know several. I am saddened when 17 year olds have babies-I also know a few. The family structure is broken down, trickle down economics hasn't worked so great for the low wage workers and the kids suffer.

Unlike you, I don't give up on these kids. I ask my kids to help these kinds of kids whenever they can. Most parents run from these kids who have been dealt a rough hand, I hug them and tell them I love them, and help them however I can.

I guess that is what makes you and I different.

Lee Parent Wrote:
>... Unfortunately the teacher's union have created
> major roadblocks for us getting rid of the lousy
> ones-so they stay amd they are ineffective.

We agree on this point - except there are no teachers' unions in Virginia.

------
> ...the bad ones get to stay-lucky us.

The really bad ones become administrators.

------
> ... As far as your insults directed at Lee,

No insults - just data.

-------
> ... The family structure is broken down,

We agree here, but I seek more DATA, some of which are not currently available. Example: How many Muslim females are removed from high school before graduation? Is this even an issue? If so, what can and what should be done about it?

--------
> Most parents run from these kids who have
> been dealt a rough hand, I hug them and tell them
> I love them, and help them however I can.

No insult to you, but a sad commentary on our society: I advise you to be very careful about hugging other peoples' children.

What do you call a group of people on school board who:
10 out of 12 are white
dont want white langley community to attend mixed race south lakes
want other areas of asians and latinos only to fill in south lakes
think than races other than white have poor character

The answer is RACIST

more HS at oakton caught with druggies so the word on maple street is. don't know if it true or not but alot of parties were suddenly cancelled tonight. lets hear about it.

LETS GO CAPS

Fairfax Postpones Vote About Student Behavior Study

By Michael Alison Chandler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 11, 2008; B01



The Fairfax County School Board voted unanimously last night to postpone a decision on whether to accept a school system report that showed racial and ethnic gaps in certain measures of achievement in character education.

Debate on the report, which has emerged as a sensitive matter for the region's largest school system, dealt in part with possible biases in its underlying data and in its presentation. Several board members said they supported delaying a vote on acceptance of the report so they could spend more time discussing it.

Several board members said beforehand that they had too many questions about the report. Among the issues they raised: whether assessments of student behavior and moral character are biased and whether sifting such data by race, ethnicity and other factors will help or hinder the school system's efforts to promote effective character education.

"I believe we need to go back to the drawing board," Martina A. Hone (At-Large) said at the meeting as she proposed a motion to delay action until no later than June 19. The motion won unanimous approval shortly before 11 p.m.

Hone said board members and staff need to look at ways to present the information without "the unintended consequences of showing numbers that would have the effect of demoralizing children or feeding into negative stereotypes."

School systems are required to break down academic data by race and ethnicity under the federal No Child Left Behind law, but it is less common to analyze data about student behavior or morality the same way. Fairfax school officials are trying to chart new territory by developing assessments for non-academic life skills the board considers "essential" to success for the current workforce.

Initial attempts to measure progress yielded results that many school officials found surprising. The report, presented March 27, detailed a disparity in a category of achievement for demonstration of moral character and ethical judgment: 82 percent of African American third-grade students, 83 percent of special education students and 86 percent of Hispanic students received "good" or "outstanding" marks on certain related indicators on their elementary school report card compared with 95 percent of Asian American and white students.

The report card indicators cited included "accepts responsibility," "listens to and follows direction," "respects personal and school property," "complies with established rules" and "follows through on assignments."

The analysis also found gaps among groups of students in other skills, including being able to contribute effectively in a group, resolve conflicts and make healthy choices.

About a dozen people turned out to oppose board acceptance of the report. John Johnson, a member of a committee that advises the board on minority student achievement issues, questioned the report's validity because it drew on often-subjective sources of data. He said the report could fuel long-held beliefs that have been used to justify discrimination against minorities. "That's the biggest fear," he said.

Before the meeting, several board members said the report needed a closer review.

"The message that seems to be out there, that some people's morals are better than others, that's not where we wanted to go with this report," said board member Kathy L. Smith (Sully). The board's goal, she said, was to "ensure that kids have the skill sets they need to be successful."

"We started this, but that does not mean that we are done," she said.

Tessie Wilson (Braddock) said she was worried that it might not make sense to assess special education students by the same standards as other students. Classroom behavior for someone with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder might involve different challenges, she said. "You have to be careful about what it is you are trying to measure," she said.

She said the findings raise thought-provoking questions about possible biases in the data and whether some disparities could stem from differences in cultural standards of behavior.

Fairfax School Superintendent Jack D. Dale applauded the board for starting a conversation that might deepen its understanding of the social and cultural complexity of the 165,700 students in the county schools. "That is probably one of the most important discussions for any school board" to have, he said in an interview.

Breaking data into racial and ethnic groups, he said, can improve understanding about how students are faring. But he said such methods have limitations in an immigrant-rich, diverse school system.

Surveys Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Is no one else concerned that Tina Horne is blaming the TEACHERS who observe some students exhibit more behavioral problems than others?< <

The discrepancy in the reporting makes very clear that the instructional staff is inherently and disturbingly racist which is no suprise after dealing with FCPS instructional personal for 20 years.

We still live in the South. Every state teachers college in Virginia is even further South. The "whites only" signs came down less than 30 years ago and not voluntarily.

After all Senator Macaca, who thought it was funny to hang nooses in the window of his office, came within 9,000 votes of getting re-elected and he received several hundred thousand votes in Fairfax,

All of the native Fairfax folks I talk to are very defensive about race and ethnic minorities. The extent that these people will negatively stereotype people who aren't Southern WASPs is shocking. And they are very uncomfortable when I challenge them on it.

Here's a test ask someone what they think about the local pro football team's nickname and just sit back and listen to the nonsense that spews of the the very educated and very bigoted people who live and work around you.

dont understand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The latest news article says that the SB delayed voting on the report. What is there to vote on? The credibility? Actions? I don't get it.< <

A governmental body can accept or refuse to accept a report. If accepted, there is an implication of approval and concurrence in the findings of the report. Failure to accept a report is a rejection of report and its findings.

aaaaaaaaarg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRG
> GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH
>
> This kind of rubbish drives me crazy - especially
> having watched public hearings where 2 SLHS
> teachers accused anyone who objected to the
> forceable RDing of their kids of racism - its easy
> to go back and review the MP3's
>
> The accusation of racism has been the pro-RD rant
> time and time again - race has always been the
> pro-RD tool of choice
>
> "If you don't want your kid moved into a failing
> school with high droputs and low scores you must
> be a racist"
>
> 'Equal resource allocation' - again complete
> rubbish - SL already had 40% higher staff:student
> ratios and computer:student ratios
>
> The only resource they wanted was white and asian
> middle class kids who would actually get on and
> learn, in order to boost average figures

I cannot agree more. The SLPTA identified areas they wanted and did not want. They wanted white/asian kids and did not want the kids from McNair/Dogwood. They said "we have too many of "those" kinds already...we want white/asian kids who can lift of averages, so the reputation of our kids' school (and our property values) goes up." The argument that they needed more kids to justify more classes is bunk. They have not added anything, nor plan to add anything, to the curriculum in response to the RD. Butler is a nice man, but just as elitist and subconciously racist as the SLPTA president etc....he too wants more white kids so he is not spending anymore time with discipline issues.

The only hope is that the lawsuit will prevail...that the judge recognizes that ESOL or FRM are code words for hispanic/black....that the school board is trying to balance the numbers, The SB should take a color blind (i.e., no socio economic) look at RD...transportation primarily. Put the closest kids in the closest schools, and then let the ripples flow out to the outer edges. Maybe such an effort will again result in Fox Mill (my area) being assigned SL. But it cannot result in Navy-to-Oakton or Floris-to-SL. The best answer is to move the Reston elementaries to SL, far western Langley to Herndon and SL, and leave everyone else alone.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee Parent,
>
> While I agree that FCPS has major problems regarding minority performance gaps, the school system, here or anywhere else, will never be a magic pill that will solve all the problems with dropouts, etc. First & foremost, the school's job is to EDUCATE, not raise our kids. Without cooperation from the adults in these kids' lives, they will always be more susceptable to dropping out, getting in trouble etc. It is NOT an educational problem, it is more a SOCIETY problem,and the school system can't solve it, nor is it necessarily the school's job to do so.< <

What complete garbage.

Since the inception of public schools in the U.S., it has always been the inherent mission of the school to socialize the students to be functioning members of our society not just getting them "book smart." If parents were solely effective at this function, Horace Mann would not have had to create the public school system.

School's job of socialization is easier if parents are functional, successful members of society but schools do our nation a disservice which give up on their fundamental function of socializing children because their student body isn't white upper middle class.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2008 12:46AM by Thomas More.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What complete garbage.
>
> Since the inception of public schools in the U.S.,
> it has always been the inherent mission of the
> school to socialize the students to be functioning
> members of our society not just getting them "book
> smart." If parents were solely effective at this
> function, Horace Mann would not have had to create
> the public school system.
>
> School's job of socialization is easier if parents
> are functional, successful members of society but
> schools do our nation a disservice which give up
> on their fundamental function of socializing
> children because their student body isn't white
> upper middle class.

Disagree all you want, but the reasons why many of the highschool dropouts do so are completely beyond the control of the schools. I never said that education is limited to book-learning. If you wait for schools to fix the problem, you'll be waiting a very long time (read forever), whether in FC or anywhere else.

Why did the school board redistrict South Lakes and why did the school board request a morality gap report from FCPS staff?

Lets look at some facts regarding South Lakes? It was and is a failing school with high drop out rates and low SAT scores. The school board blames Blacks and Hispanics with the failures of this school. So how are they trying to fix this problem? Are they rolling up their sleeves and making the school staff accountable for their students results? No, their fix is to redistrict white and asian student into South Lakes from surrounding schools and hope that scores go up and drop out rates go down. Sounds like a wing and a prayer decision to me.

Now lets look at the failures of the FCPS system? FCPS has almost seventy schools that are failing NCLB, they have a high drop out rate when compared to other school systems in the state, they have test result scores that are going down and they have ten schools out of twenty five that are under capacity.

So what does FCPS and the school board do? They ask for a MORALITY GAP REPORT? Why? They knew what the results of this report would be before it was started. They knew that it would make blacks and hispanics students look bad and white and asian students look better.

FCPS and the school board will not take responsilibity for the failures of their system. They refuse to take any blame because they always want to look good.

So who do they blame for their failures? They want to blame blacks and hispanics with the results of the morality gap report that they requested and knew what the results would be.

Blame the blacks and hispanics for their failures. Sounds like they are a group of racist who are bias in everything they do. Look at the make up of the school board, ten out of twelve are white. Look at the FCPS staff that supports the school board, it is almost all white.

I believe FCPS and the school board have big time morality gap issues.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Disagree all you want, but the reasons why many of the high school dropouts do so are completely beyond the control of the schools. I never said that education is limited to book-learning. If you wait for schools to fix the problem, you'll be waiting a very long time (read forever), whether in FC or anywhere else.< <

Now you've changed your argument. First, you argued that schools have no responsibility for any school drop-outs. Now, you argue that some kids drop out despite the school's best efforts.

The first argument is ridiculous, the second is obvious.

You are making too much sense. It won't happen.



drifting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> aaaaaaaaarg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> >
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRG
>
> > GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH
> >
> > This kind of rubbish drives me crazy -
> especially
> > having watched public hearings where 2 SLHS
> > teachers accused anyone who objected to the
> > forceable RDing of their kids of racism - its
> easy
> > to go back and review the MP3's
> >
> > The accusation of racism has been the pro-RD
> rant
> > time and time again - race has always been the
> > pro-RD tool of choice
> >
> > "If you don't want your kid moved into a
> failing
> > school with high droputs and low scores you
> must
> > be a racist"
> >
> > 'Equal resource allocation' - again complete
> > rubbish - SL already had 40% higher
> staff:student
> > ratios and computer:student ratios
> >
> > The only resource they wanted was white and
> asian
> > middle class kids who would actually get on and
> > learn, in order to boost average figures
>
> I cannot agree more. The SLPTA identified areas
> they wanted and did not want. They wanted
> white/asian kids and did not want the kids from
> McNair/Dogwood. They said "we have too many of
> "those" kinds already...we want white/asian kids
> who can lift of averages, so the reputation of our
> kids' school (and our property values) goes up."
> The argument that they needed more kids to justify
> more classes is bunk. They have not added
> anything, nor plan to add anything, to the
> curriculum in response to the RD. Butler is a
> nice man, but just as elitist and subconciously
> racist as the SLPTA president etc....he too wants
> more white kids so he is not spending anymore time
> with discipline issues.
>
> The only hope is that the lawsuit will
> prevail...that the judge recognizes that ESOL or
> FRM are code words for hispanic/black....that the
> school board is trying to balance the numbers,
> The SB should take a color blind (i.e., no socio
> economic) look at RD...transportation primarily.
> Put the closest kids in the closest schools, and
> then let the ripples flow out to the outer edges.
> Maybe such an effort will again result in Fox Mill
> (my area) being assigned SL. But it cannot result
> in Navy-to-Oakton or Floris-to-SL. The best
> answer is to move the Reston elementaries to SL,
> far western Langley to Herndon and SL, and leave
> everyone else alone.

yet another stupid rant by the pro-RD folks


racist SB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What do you call a group of people on school board
> who:
> 10 out of 12 are white

representative of the majorities in their constituencies - as in a democracy

> dont want white langley community to attend mixed
> race south lakes
> want other areas of asians and latinos only to
> fill in south lakes


so madison island is asian and latino?



> think than races other than white have poor
> character

or question why the performance of hispanic and african american students is disgracefully poor


>
> The answer is RACIST

the answer is IDIOT

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Disagree all you want, but the reasons why
> many of the high school dropouts do so are
> completely beyond the control of the schools. I
> never said that education is limited to
> book-learning. If you wait for schools to fix the
> problem, you'll be waiting a very long time (read
> forever), whether in FC or anywhere else.< <
>
> Now you've changed your argument. First, you
> argued that schools have no responsibility for any
> school drop-outs. Now, you argue that some kids
> drop out despite the school's best efforts.
>
> The first argument is ridiculous, the second is
> obvious.

You should really learn to READ. Show me where I said schools have no responsibility to try to reduce dropout rates. Sure they should do what they can, but not at the expense of all the other kids in the system. Bottom line, the schools are just pissing up a rope if they think they're going to substantially reduce the problem. Education IS their primary task, hence the name Department of EDUCATION. That word is used in a general sense.

With all the hype of whose to blame for dropouts, etc..I personally feel that if the school staff and the sb want a successful school system with a minimum high school dropout rate, therefore it is the school system's responsibility to educate these students..help them learn and be motivated in school instead of punishing at a higher degree for certain classes of race for violations committed and to work with students considering dropping out of school. On top of that parents should be involved in their students' education regardless of economic wealth. It takes a village of the school community and parents to help their children succeed. BOTH the school system and the parents.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > You should really learn to READ. Show me where I said schools have no responsibility to try to reduce dropout rates. Sure they should do what they can, but not at the expense of all the other kids in the system. Bottom line, the schools are just pissing up a rope if they think they're going to substantially reduce the problem. Education IS their primary task, hence the name Department of EDUCATION. That word is used in a general sense. < <

You wrote:

> > > It is NOT an educational problem, it is more a SOCIETY problem,and the school system can't solve it, nor is it necessarily the school's job to do so.< <

We all can read that just fine.

This advocacy for the schools abandoning kids from dysfunctional homes is fascinating. Especially, since most dysfunctional families are not minorities but middle class and white.

And the schools should do this so they can concentrate on the kids from the non-dysfunctional families?

So is your's a functional or dysfunctional family? Is your's the kid to be abandoned or to get the resources to be taken away from the disadvantaged kids?

What's next euthanizing the kids unlucky enough to be born into dysfunctional families?

i just want to know who decides who is functional and who is not....is it really the governments responsibility??????

I thought the school were supposed to teach us knowledge...when did it become their responsibility to decide who is functional and who is not!!!!!

Video from a redistricting discussion in a south lakes class room

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XJGhAt_3dag&feature=related



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2008 04:23PM by ferfux.

Let us start a online petition to demand that this SB members resign so we can hold fresh elections and elect sane people to SB

petition Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let us start a online petition to demand that this
> SB members resign so we can hold fresh elections
> and elect sane people to SB


Why would a sane person want to be on the SB?

Obvious Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> petition Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Let us start a online petition to demand that
> this
> > SB members resign so we can hold fresh
> elections
> > and elect sane people to SB
>
>
> Why would a sane person want to be on the SB?



Based on the school boards last few decisions, redistricting, budget and the now famous dumb morality gap report they are both stupid and insane.

That is so true. The school board is full of insane people making insane decisions.

Obvious Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> petition Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Let us start a online petition to demand that
> this
> > SB members resign so we can hold fresh
> elections
> > and elect sane people to SB
>
>
> Why would a sane person want to be on the SB?

Anyone knows what the hearing date on the lawsuit is?

Ms. Strauss-

Me thinks thou doth protest too much............

Your response unfortunately lacks substance and is, in my opinion, dishonest. This continued denial and candy coating that goes on within the FCPS politburo is really becoming troubling to me. Someone needs to stand up and say, "We are failing too many kids. We need to do more. Until all of our children succeed our work is not done".

I know I am dreaming but I keep thinking that one day it just may happen.....

Let's go over some of the statistics, shall we? Let's measure how well the African Americans and Latinos are doing under the FCPS School Board Leadership.

According to the MSAOC Report dated June 1, 2006, we have the following figures to be so proud of:

4 out of every 10 Latinos who started 9th grade in September 2001 did not graduate from high school in June of 2005.

In 2005, the percentage point gap between Whites and Blacks in 3rd grade SOL reading was 28.6. For 8th grade reading it was 26.8.

In 2005, the percentage point gap between Whites and Latinos in 3rd grade SOL reading was 19.3. For 8th grade reading it was 25.

In 2007, the percentage point gap between Whites and Latinos for 3rd grade reading SOL was 30. For 8th grade reading it was 33.

In 2007, the percentage point gap between Whites and Blacks for 3rd grade reading SOL was 21. For 8th grade reading it was 27.

3 out of 4 of the measurements showed a widening gap. Perhaps I am a glass half empty kind of guy, but I don't share your enthusiasm when the gap is widening and 4 out of 10 minority students are failing these standardized tests.

The MSAOC Report also states that the Latino dropout rate doubled between years 2001-02 and 2004-05.

In years 2005-06, 62% of White 3-8th graders participated in GT Programs. In comparison, 3% of Latinos and Blacks participated in GT.

In 2005, 31% of White students enrolled in at least one AP course. 10% of Blacks and 11% of Latino took these courses.

In 1998, 49 Black and Latino students were admitted to TJ. In 2005-06, 28 were admitted-a drop of 43%.

For the year 2007, the School Board directed The MSAOC to issue a report that addressed parental involvement in order to increase scores and participation rates for minorities. No statistics were provided for that year because of this "shift" in thinking of the SB-I find this interesting. Blame the parents, huh?

In mid 2007 The MSAOC issued the dropout report and urged SB members to take action by December 2007. Yet here we are in April of 2008, and the report is still in draft form. It makes one wonder how much of a priority this whole issue of dropouts could be?

The Dropout Report states the following:

Compared with other DC area school districts, FCPS ranks in the middle for Black and Hispanic dropouts. Loudon County, Howard County, Arlington and Montgomery have lower dropout rates than FCPS.Within VA, Chesterfield and VA Beach schools have lower dropout rates than FCPS.

I know you were beaming with pride over FCPS's alternative schools, but given that 50% of Asians, 54% of Blacks, 79% of Latinos and 43% of Whites dropped out of these schools in 2005-06, I have a hard time sharing your enthusiasm.

These numbers are an abomination. They are a violation of the public trust. There are a fiscally irresponsible use of funds. Until you and other SB members and Dale get a reality check on how far you have to go with minority underachievement , things will never improve.

GET MOVING.

REDISTRICT FAILURE, you provide some interesting data, but can you clarify or elaborate on a few points? You wrote:

> Ms. Strauss- ... Your response unfortunately lacks
> substance and is, in my opinion, dishonest. ...

To what response are you referring?

--------------

> In years 2005-06, 62% of White 3-8th graders
> participated in GT Programs. In comparison, 3% of
> Latinos and Blacks participated in GT.

Where did you get these data? I do not see how the GT programs are big enough to accommodate two-thirds of White students.

----------------

> In 2005, 31% of White students enrolled in at
> least one AP course. 10% of Blacks and 11% of
> Latino took these courses.

Where did you get these data? Are you counting AP and IB, or just AP? Since Black and Latino students are more concentrated in IB schools it might make a difference.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> REDISTRICT FAILURE, you provide some interesting
> data, but can you clarify or elaborate on a few
> points? You wrote:
>
> > Ms. Strauss- ... Your response unfortunately
> lacks
> > substance and is, in my opinion, dishonest. ...
>
> To what response are you referring?
>
> --------------
>
> > In years 2005-06, 62% of White 3-8th graders
> > participated in GT Programs. In comparison, 3%
> of
> > Latinos and Blacks participated in GT.
>
> Where did you get these data? I do not see how the
> GT programs are big enough to accommodate
> two-thirds of White students.
>
> ----------------
>
> > In 2005, 31% of White students enrolled in at
> > least one AP course. 10% of Blacks and 11% of
> > Latino took these courses.
>
> Where did you get these data? Are you counting AP
> and IB, or just AP? Since Black and Latino
> students are more concentrated in IB schools it
> might make a difference.

This was the response.

THe achievement of minority students has improved steadily. SAT scores have risen for all subgroups has have SOLs, AP and IB scores. More minority students are going onto college and being successful once they get there. THe College Partnership Program has helped hundreds of students attend college from families who are sending their first child to college - and the program helps find scholarships for these children. These children are over 80% minority and the largest per cent are African American. The number of students earning Career and Technical Education Certificates has risen dramatically. We have an extremely successful partnership with both the Northern Virginia Community College and George Mason - again predominantly serving minority students - which helps and supports studenets from middle school on to be prepared for college, apply, gain admission and finish a degree program. More minority students are successfully taking Algebra in the 8th grade - an important gateway course for higher math - and more are enrolling in and completing a college preparatory course of study. THe FCPS drop out rate is low and in order to help those students for whom a traditional high school setting doesn't work - often because of family needs or experiences in a student's home country that prevented them from having a consistant education - we have Alternative High Schools that enbale young adults to finish high school and work full time. Students with behavior issues have opportunities to turn their academic careers around through over 20 small special programs - some in collaboration with the courts or County Human Services.

No one requested a "morality gap report" The School Board has always reviewed student behavior data and it has been traditionally broken out in a variety of ways - some by boys and girls as well as other categories. Elementary reportcard data has not been looked at in this way and we will have to determine whether we want it or not. By the way the report in question that we saw the other night actaully does not show a differences by subgroup for older students - so does this mean that as the children grow and mature whatever differences seen in the lower grades disappear with age and learning. IT is alwasy nice to see the children grow and learn - I think that is what we are after.

Sincerely,
Jane K. Strauss

I saw the report as well. It comes from the MSAOC 12th Report Card issued June 2006.

Page 15 has the GT data.

AP data is on page 16.

IB Data is 8% Whites, 7% Latinos and 6% Black.

It would be interesting to see per school data on these measurements.

I stumbled on this School Inprovement Plan for Lake Braddock that was a pretty detailed 100 page report with lots of data.

Does anyone know if all the schools put this out every year? If so, how do you get a hold of them?

What cracked me up with the LB report was the number of suspensions listed. They disclosed 91 suspensions in middle school for year 2005-06 and 205 in the high school. 60% of the suspensions were directed at minorities even though they are 40% of student population.

I think I will compare those numbers with the VADOE Safe Schools Report Card Data. Principals like to punish kids but they don't like to disclose to the state how many incidents there are.

REDISTRICT FAILURE Wrote:
> "... By the way the report in question that we saw the
> other night actaully does not show a differences
> by subgroup for older students - so does this mean
> that as the children grow and mature whatever
> differences seen in the lower grades disappear
> with age and learning. IT is alwasy nice to see
> the children grow and learn - I think that is what
> we are after."

---------
Thank you for posting this response from Janie Strauss.

We need to refer to an earlier comment of yours to see the obvious fallacy in her above postulation. You posted, "4 out of every 10 Latinos who started 9th grade in September 2001 did not graduate from high school in June of 2005."

It would appear that the students with the most problems do not "grow and learn" but rather "give up and drop out."

Why do these SB members write such crap? I swear they think we are stupid.

It is actually amusing to pick apart the stupid and inaccurate things they say and write.

On to bigger and better things, folks.

I would like to play a little game with everyone. I will cite stats on some schools and you guys guess the schools. We will then, collectively solve the problem within FCPS that the inept SB members can't seem to do.

Here we go-

SCHOOL #1: capacity 2500 enrollment 2935

FRM 16% ESL 12%

Problem: Overcrowded by 435 students


SCHOOL #2: capacity 2550 enrollment 1700

FRM 38% ESL 17%

Problem: Undercapacity by 850 students-unable to provide students with extensive course offerings due to lower numbers


SCHOOL #3 capacity 3225 enrollment 2662

FRM 21% ESL 14%

Problem: Undercapacity by 563 students-underutilization of taxpayer money.


SCHOOL #4 capacity 4075 enrollment 3770

FRM 11% ESL 11%

Problem: Undercapacity by 305 students-underutilization of taxpayer money.


Schools 2, 3 and 4 Border School #1.

OPTION 1 would be to redistrict these schools and move the 435 students causing the overcrowding to the 3 schools with 1400 empty desks. OR

OPTION 2-spend $60 million to build a new school

Let's vote.

Have the school board move 500 students from school 1 to school 4 and leave schools 2 & 3 under capacity.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> > In years 2005-06, 62% of White 3-8th graders
> > participated in GT Programs. In comparison, 3%
> of
> > Latinos and Blacks participated in GT.
>
> Where did you get these data? I do not see how the
> GT programs are big enough to accommodate
> two-thirds of White students.
>

take an example school which fails AYP such as Hughes MS

G&T centre = 20%
G&T school based = 40%
general ed = 26%
special ed = 14%

and it still can't make ayp

if I were to hazard a guess, it would be that the performance in general ed is so poor that if the numbers in G&T center and school based were reduced, you'd have insurrection and families leaving in droves under NCLB provisions. In effect, you end up with schools within schools - a remedial portion and a high performing portion because the performance gap is too high to bridge in a single classroom. This is one reason why you shouldn't just dump more bodies into schools that fail AYP

the MS figures are not broken down by ethnicity on FCPS.edu, but looking at the correlation between ethnicity and failure rates in HS, I suspect that you'd see a pretty significant difference in the make-up on general ed and G&T

is this suprising?


if you make take the published figures that suggest that about about 50% of hispanics in the US are illegal and hence have limited english and educational experience, its not surprising that their children are set up for failure

similarly, and unfortunately, there is something clearly amiss in the african american community with respect to education - despite there clearly being the same potential as the white and asian communities there is a dreadful gap

[as opposed to something wrong in the education community with respect to african americans as is claimed]

I say both of these things with regret as I have many latino and african american friends

the problem is that we are not able to face up to either of these issues without accusations of racism

perhaps its up to the latino and african american communities to face the issues within their own communities rather than expecting other ES and MS kids to fix the situation for them or blaming fcps (and I'm not a great fan of the board)

with more kids getting caught with drugs at OAKTON HIGH SCHOOL they will proabbly be under enrolled next year just send more kids there. get the spoiled druggies out from public schools now. maybe oakton needs the principal from SLHS to come over and straighten that place out.

The solution to the drug problem is due to RD students into Oakton. Schools with empty seats have a higher drug problems - students can hide drugs in the empty seats. To solve this problem, Gibson is suggesting that we bus students from Springfield to Oakton.

nee deep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> with more kids getting caught with drugs at OAKTON
> HIGH SCHOOL they will proabbly be under enrolled
> next year just send more kids there. get the
> spoiled druggies out from public schools now.
> maybe oakton needs the principal from SLHS to come
> over and straighten that place out.

Springfield is so far from Oakton - students will have to take 495 to go to Oakton. There are other schools with lower enrollment that do not have drug problem. This is a dicipline issue not a facilities issue.

gibsonsolution Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The solution to the drug problem is due to RD
> students into Oakton. Schools with empty seats
> have a higher drug problems - students can hide
> drugs in the empty seats. To solve this problem,
> Gibson is suggesting that we bus students from
> Springfield to Oakton.
>
> nee deep Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > with more kids getting caught with drugs at
> OAKTON
> > HIGH SCHOOL they will proabbly be under
> enrolled
> > next year just send more kids there. get the
> > spoiled druggies out from public schools now.
> > maybe oakton needs the principal from SLHS to
> come
> > over and straighten that place out.

Just as the farmer who did not want to loan his plow as his wife was sick, these are all excuses. ALL problems including drug issues can be solved via RD. The solution to any issue relating to anything in the school system is RD.


really Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Springfield is so far from Oakton - students will
> have to take 495 to go to Oakton. There are other
> schools with lower enrollment that do not have
> drug problem. This is a dicipline issue not a
> facilities issue.
>
> gibsonsolution Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The solution to the drug problem is due to RD
> > students into Oakton. Schools with empty seats
> > have a higher drug problems - students can hide
> > drugs in the empty seats. To solve this
> problem,
> > Gibson is suggesting that we bus students from
> > Springfield to Oakton.
> >
> > nee deep Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > with more kids getting caught with drugs at
> > OAKTON
> > > HIGH SCHOOL they will proabbly be under
> > enrolled
> > > next year just send more kids there. get the
> > > spoiled druggies out from public schools now.
>
> > > maybe oakton needs the principal from SLHS to
> > come
> > > over and straighten that place out.

gibsonsolution Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as the farmer who did not want to loan his
> plow as his wife was sick, these are all excuses.
> ALL problems including drug issues can be solved
> via RD. The solution to any issue relating to
> anything in the school system is RD.
>
>
> really Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Springfield is so far from Oakton - students
> will
> > have to take 495 to go to Oakton. There are
> other
> > schools with lower enrollment that do not have
> > drug problem. This is a dicipline issue not a
> > facilities issue.
> >
> > gibsonsolution Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The solution to the drug problem is due to RD
> > > students into Oakton. Schools with empty
> seats
> > > have a higher drug problems - students can
> hide
> > > drugs in the empty seats. To solve this
> > problem,
> > > Gibson is suggesting that we bus students
> from
> > > Springfield to Oakton.
> > >
> > > nee deep Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > with more kids getting caught with drugs at
> > > OAKTON
> > > > HIGH SCHOOL they will proabbly be under
> > > enrolled
> > > > next year just send more kids there. get
> the
> > > > spoiled druggies out from public schools
> now.
> >
> > > > maybe oakton needs the principal from SLHS
> to
> > > come
> > > > over and straighten that place out.

It is unfortunate that drugs can happen anywhere and in high schools. Why did you say RD would be the solution to solve the drug situation in a high school? Doesn't make sense.

"It is unfortunate that drugs can happen anywhere and in high schools. Why did you say RD would be the solution to solve the drug situation in a high school? Doesn't make sense."

I think the poster was being facetious.

no wonder you're baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "It is unfortunate that drugs can happen anywhere
> and in high schools. Why did you say RD would be
> the solution to solve the drug situation in a high
> school? Doesn't make sense."
>
> I think the poster was being facetious.


gibsonsolution Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as the farmer who did not want to loan his
> plow as his wife was sick, these are all excuses.
> ALL problems including drug issues can be solved
> via RD. The solution to any issue relating to
> anything in the school system is RD.
>

Referring to the poster's post above, tell me how a RD can solve a drug situation in a high school? My monkier is the original for when the screwed up RD was in process.

According to Stu Gibson and the SB who voted 10-2 for RD, RD is solution for all ills. When the school board and the staff could not address the problems of the failing SL school, they used RD to solve all SL problems. By that logic, RD should be able to solve the drug problem also. I am sure Gibson will come up with a convincing argument and a story on how RD can solve drug problems.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no wonder you're baffled Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "It is unfortunate that drugs can happen
> anywhere
> > and in high schools. Why did you say RD would
> be
> > the solution to solve the drug situation in a
> high
> > school? Doesn't make sense."
> >
> > I think the poster was being facetious.
>
>
> gibsonsolution Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just as the farmer who did not want to loan his
>
> > plow as his wife was sick, these are all
> excuses.
> > ALL problems including drug issues can be solved
>
> > via RD. The solution to any issue relating to
> > anything in the school system is RD.
> >
>
> Referring to the poster's post above, tell me how
> a RD can solve a drug situation in a high school?
> My monkier is the original for when the screwed up
> RD was in process.

South Lakes is NOT a failing school.

ggg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes is NOT a failing school.


40% higher staff:student ratios than madison

yet
only 66% of students taking SAT (compared to 88% at madison)
average SAT of only 1625 (compared to 1715 at madison)

low rate of advanced pass at SOL
high rate of failure at SOL

high minority drop out rates

shining example of success then

I grew up in this county and remember when the enrollment at Oakton was much smaller in the late 70s/early 80s, before a lot of the new construction. It was just considered one more decent high school, among others, in the county.

Now it seems to be overcrowded - and unnecessarily so. If the school board had ANY backbone, it would quickly reassign some of the kids at Oakton to Madison, some of the kids at Madison and McLean to Marshall, and some of the kids at Marshall to Falls Church. But that won't happen - because they've seen how lawyered up and hyped up many of the parents are in these districts.

Redistricting happened all the time in the 1970s (West Springfield to Lake Braddock and Jefferson (pre-magnet) to Stuart (which for many years, even with declining enrollments and increasing ESL populations, had many more high-ranking students than TJ). Parents weren't thrilled with the changes, because it upset their childrens' expectations, but they got over it quickly and encouraged their kids to do likewise. Now the parents not only whine, they litigate. Given how affluent Fairfax is compared to the rest of the country, it's not only sad, it's pathetic.

GT but no AYP - you have set forth a pithy but compelling and reasonable explanation and set of conclusions. You do seem to state or at least directionally imply, however, that the schools can't do much better than they are doing with minority populations because of significant cultural factors in those communities. You are absolutely correct that cries of racism prevent these issues from being discussed more openly - in fact - in schools of higher education - raising issues of cultural deficiency (or even in the most scientific way, IQ) are blasphemies of the highest order, endangering career and future prospects. But although to a degree I agree with you that there are limits as to what the schools can do, I can't shake the idea that good teachers and great instruction - especially in the K-6 years - can make a great deal of difference in student achievement. And this is not to suggest that FCPS schools by and large doesn't have good teachers - I think they do - and that such teachers care about their craft and do often make a difference - but they are not sufficiently empowered, whether it be in the areas of discipline or in the teaching of traditional hard wired skills in computation and language. They to my mind need the flexibility and empowerment to get the job done. But I may be tilting at windmills.

Note the the educational establishment loves to trot out Jonathon Kozol for expensive speaking engagements to speak of the "savage inequality" in terms of expenditures on our schools. But schools like South Lakes and Hughes MS create pesky little fact scenarios that get in the way of the Kozol's of the world. These schools spend more per capita than their better performing peers, and have more teacher and instructional resources. They are, notwithstanding the hysteria of anti-RD parents - clearly not based in the hood and while not without their problem kids are light years away from the profile of a crime ridden, urban school. And yet the achievement gaps remain. These stats argue for your conclusions, and yet I stubbornly do think that good teachers and instructions can close the difference. There will be a point, however, where a continuing achievement gap, if not ameliorated, will compel me to surrender. And that portends such demographic misery that I don't really want to think about the consequences, especially in an ever evolving knowledge based global economy.

quantum, I don't have all the answers either, not by a long shot, but I will say that considering how hard I have to ride my high schooler to maintain respectable (and I mean barely) grades, I have to wonder what happens with kids whose parents don't do the same, for whatever reason. I don't really know what is going on in all the classes anymore, but I repeatedly harp on the importance of trying hard. By the time a kid gets to high school. if they are behind at all, the challenges just accumulate.
I'd like to see the system try some really radical things to get kids engaged, expand the career education options (which aren't all that bad now, but they take some effort to explore), and stop boring the kids. None of this has anything to do with the supposed topic of this thread, but in an attempt to be relevent, I'll say that there are good and bad and in-between teachers at all schools, there are numerous variables that affect achievement. Why is there an achievement gap among races? There are probably dozens of things that contribute. Blame the schools, blame the culture, blame the parents, there seems to be enough blame to go around. Anything a person says can get them in hot water with some group.

The discussions about minority achievement are interesting above. We have to get past accusations of "race" and begin looking at the underlying reasons for the gap.

Unfortunately, there are a great many people who still do view minorities as inherently inferior and a "lost cause." And worse. And some of them have posted on this board. If we can figure out how to weed them out of the discussion, then we can have a serious and beneficial review of how to address minority gap issues, including what cultural, societal, and socioeconomic issues might underlie those gaps.

I believe that is what the School Board was attempting to do, and if anyone heard them speak at their meeting on Thursday, you might become a bit more compassionate about their intentions.

The great shame is that so many people still harbor prejudice and cling to stereotypes - contaminating reasonable and empathetic discussions. They are difficult to spot, too. To deny that these people exist, or that they put on facades of "I'm just calling it like it is and am not racist," is to be naive.

So the challenge is to move forward with this discussion DESPITE these pollutants. (It is never very fruitful to try to change their minds, since they hardly ever do, and that just derails the main discussion.) How?

Those interested in this topic might read "Infidel," a recent memoir by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali and escaped to Holland as a subjugated Muslim - and found that an open society that refuses to address these issues face-on risks dangerous internal bleeding. She is now working for the American Enterprise Institute. Whatever your political spectrum position, this book is extraordinarily thought-provoking. And then read "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop, who recently fled the same FLDS and same people now in the news. The problem is ubiquitous.

I have a hard time coming to the SB's defense on this morality report. I read all of the documents presented and it was irresponsible to present this and not expect people to be outraged at the "conclusions" they were drawing.

The analogy I will draw is when my kids come home with a bad grade on their report card. I hate it when they say, "I didn't know I had a D...". To me it is just as bad that they were clueless about what grade they were getting as the bad grade itself.

The same is true with this SB. Not only was this report a bunch of garbage but the fact that Dale's people and The SB didn't know it was nuclear speaks volumes about how clueless they are.

This school district has been devoting its energy to fighting NCLB standards when they tried to not test the ESL kids, tried to make the MSAOC report to Dale and lose their independence, do nothing with the dropout data report, attempt to cut programs which primarily benefit at risk kids, and understaff and ignore their failing schools.

FCPS is light years behind MOCO in chipping away at the gap. They only made it a priority when Hone shamed them.

I'm the one that sent the report to The Post. Jay Matthews's response was "Holy cow!" and this is a guy who has been around the block.

TimeTraveller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I grew up in this county and remember when the
> enrollment at Oakton was much smaller in the late
> 70s/early 80s, before a lot of the new
> construction. It was just considered one more
> decent high school, among others, in the county.
>
> Now it seems to be overcrowded - and unnecessarily
> so. If the school board had ANY backbone, it
> would quickly reassign some of the kids at Oakton
> to Madison, some of the kids at Madison and McLean
> to Marshall, and some of the kids at Marshall to
> Falls Church. But that won't happen - because
> they've seen how lawyered up and hyped up many of
> the parents are in these districts.
>
> Redistricting happened all the time in the 1970s
> (West Springfield to Lake Braddock and Jefferson
> (pre-magnet) to Stuart (which for many years, even
> with declining enrollments and increasing ESL
> populations, had many more high-ranking students
> than TJ). Parents weren't thrilled with the
> changes, because it upset their childrens'
> expectations, but they got over it quickly and
> encouraged their kids to do likewise. Now the
> parents not only whine, they litigate. Given how
> affluent Fairfax is compared to the rest of the
> country, it's not only sad, it's pathetic.


not a snowball's chance in heck

SLHS was a problem, so the SB needed to move high performing kids in to mask the numbers but to achieve the backfill they have to move people from navy into oakton

to wait a couple of months and then 'discover' that oakton is overcapacity and then ripple people all the way to fall's church would immediatly convince the public that this was the plan all the time

if this was the plan all the time, then the parents in the other schools would jusifiably claim that they should have had a say in the initial debacle

the SB could barely manage the process as it was - if they'd thrown in 4 more schools you'd have had people burning cars in the streets - which is one reason why the SB limited it as they did

your suggestion would be in court as fast as you can say 'jackrabbit' under lack of due process amongst other reasons

how many kids have to be shuffled to hide SLHS's problems?

I think the BOS was curious why they spent $60 million on SLHS when it had so many empty seats.

They had to put kids there. Now the FCPS SB can say how fiscally responsible they are and demand that the BOS pay for SOCO middle school.

Storck and Bradsher are positively obsessed with getting this school built at all costs-regardless of whatever pressing issues are on the table. And no one stands up to them. So much for the at-large members.

Snowball - I wasn't really addressing the South Lakes situation in my comment, though many of the people on this thread do treat it as the defining event of a generation to which all other comments must refer.

My point was that, notwithstanding the suggestions to the contrary, the School Board actually engages in far less redistricting today than it did 20-30 years ago. As a result, when it does redistrict, parents are quick to complain, and advance all sorts of spurious arguments that their due process rights have been violated. Then they wonder why their children grow up with such a sense of entitlement.

I agree with you that the additional redistricting I tossed out for consideration will not happen any time soon, if ever - not because it would reveal a hidden agenda with respect to the decision that sent more kids to South Lakes, but instead because the School Board simply doesn't have the guts these days to make more than a few, probably overdue adjustments every 8-10 years.

TimeTraveller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I grew up in this county and remember when the
> enrollment at Oakton was much smaller in the late
> 70s/early 80s, before a lot of the new
> construction. It was just considered one more
> decent high school, among others, in the county.
>
> Now it seems to be overcrowded - and unnecessarily
> so. If the school board had ANY backbone, it
> would quickly reassign some of the kids at Oakton
> to Madison, some of the kids at Madison and McLean
> to Marshall, and some of the kids at Marshall to
> Falls Church. But that won't happen - because
> they've seen how lawyered up and hyped up many of
> the parents are in these districts.
>
> Redistricting happened all the time in the 1970s
> (West Springfield to Lake Braddock and Jefferson
> (pre-magnet) to Stuart (which for many years, even
> with declining enrollments and increasing ESL
> populations, had many more high-ranking students
> than TJ). Parents weren't thrilled with the
> changes, because it upset their childrens'
> expectations, but they got over it quickly and
> encouraged their kids to do likewise. Now the
> parents not only whine, they litigate. Given how
> affluent Fairfax is compared to the rest of the
> country, it's not only sad, it's pathetic.


Sorry, I don't find your history lesson particularly valuable. When the SB fails the people they are supposed to represent, there are few alternatives. I wouldn't suggest that anybody just shut up and take it. The only answer in our democractic checks and balances system is to litigate. Thanks G-d we live in a society where this is possible. I think it's pathetic that you think legal action is pathetic. And, let's be VERY CLEAR here. There are many affluent communities in Fairfax County, BUT Fox MIll and Floris do not fall into that category.

Know Something Wrote:

Sorry, I don't find your history lesson
> particularly valuable. When the SB fails the
> people they are supposed to represent, there are
> few alternatives. I wouldn't suggest that anybody
> just shut up and take it. The only answer in our
> democractic checks and balances system is to
> litigate. Thanks G-d we live in a society where
> this is possible. I think it's pathetic that you
> think legal action is pathetic. And, let's be
> VERY CLEAR here. There are many affluent
> communities in Fairfax County, BUT Fox MIll and
> Floris do not fall into that category.

I don't recall saying anything about Fox MIll and Floris. For those affected by the South Lakes redistricting, though, it's apparently all about them, all the time. Sorry - to me it is VERY CLEAR that this is pathetic, not the best message to impart to your children, and not the way those of us who dealt with school redistricting in the past, without suffering the lasting scars you assume will be inflicted on your kids, handled things.

And, while litigation obviously has its place in our society, the taxpayers do have to foot the bill to defend the litigation you decide to bring against the county. There are many people in this county under this Administration whose due process rights are being infringed - I just don't think you're one of them, by a long shot.

TimeTraveller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Snowball - I wasn't really addressing the South
> Lakes situation in my comment, though many of the
> people on this thread do treat it as the defining
> event of a generation to which all other comments
> must refer.
>
> My point was that, notwithstanding the suggestions
> to the contrary, the School Board actually engages
> in far less redistricting today than it did 20-30
> years ago. As a result, when it does redistrict,
> parents are quick to complain, and advance all
> sorts of spurious arguments that their due process
> rights have been violated. Then they wonder why
> their children grow up with such a sense of
> entitlement.
>
> I agree with you that the additional redistricting
> I tossed out for consideration will not happen any
> time soon, if ever - not because it would reveal a
> hidden agenda with respect to the decision that
> sent more kids to South Lakes, but instead because
> the School Board simply doesn't have the guts
> these days to make more than a few, probably
> overdue adjustments every 8-10 years.


The problem is that there is real performance differences between schools.

In the SLHS case, the discussion that the SB refused to have was the scope and priority of 3 classes of problems at SLHS (and other county schools)

-performance
-programmatic
-facilities

It seems clear that parents care most about performance, then programmatics and finally facilities

However, the SB chose to major on a facilities issue which the majority of people who could be affected felt was not serious enough to justify the RD in the face of the performance concerns. Which is why it ended up in a proxy fight on programmatics.

The real danger is that the RD process is a wonderful cover for forcing changes which would never be acceptable to the public if the debate were focussed on performance - which is precisely what happened in the SLHS debacle and even more clearly with the Hughes debacle

This has real effects
1) it enables serious performance issues to be hidden
2) it forces kids into poor performing schools
3) it reduces the incentives to improve performance in poorly performing schools

resources and strategy should be used to fix schools, not other kids

By going so far overboard on SLHS, the SB has basically killed the RD process.

There should be a guiding principle in any RD

- no homes should ever be redistricted into a lower performing school

TimeTraveller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't recall saying anything about Fox MIll and
> Floris. For those affected by the South Lakes
> redistricting, though, it's apparently all about
> them, all the time.

with education, that's not a bad thing

Personal family ownership of educational quality is more likely to drive system wide improvements than handing it over to bureaucrats who, frankly, don't give a damn about your kids other than in some vague aggregate

No-one should be expected to make compromises with their own kid's education to fix underperformance in another subgroup - especially when they already receive substantially more resources.

"And, while litigation obviously has its place in our society, the taxpayers do have to foot the bill to defend the litigation you decide to bring against the county. There are many people in this county under this Administration whose due process rights are being infringed - I just don't think you're one of them, by a long shot."

I agree that some/many lawsuits are frivolous and annoying. However, in many cases it's the only way for the little guy to get the big guy's (in this case the SB) attention. There is no mechanism to appeal a SB decision, so for those who felt the RD was unethical (as I do), then what other course of action was there? I think that the SB has the right to change attendance areas, of course it does. However, it also has to be responsible. Building an addition onto Langley and then claiming that Langley shouldn't be included was, to me, the last straw. I think that the SB and FCPS staff have a responsibility to see that all schools are serving their students, and they need to do whatever is needed to make that happen, within budget realities. Spending millions of dollars on new admin buildings was another loser move, considering the budget situation. The best thing that might come out of all this is that many more people are taking a look at what FCPS actually does. Turns out I disagree with a lot of it. Hopefully many more parents/citizens will demand better performance now.

no bad thing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Personal family ownership of educational quality
> is more likely to drive system wide improvements
> than handing it over to bureaucrats who, frankly,
> don't give a damn about your kids other than in
> some vague aggregate
>
> No-one should be expected to make compromises with
> their own kid's education to fix underperformance
> in another subgroup - especially when they already
> receive substantially more resources.

You should take a look at Richard Cohen's article in the Washington Post today, where he noted that the use of the phrase "frankly" means that a big whopper is soon to follow.

If you choose to send your kids to county schools, you should recognize that you exercise something substantially less than "personal family ownership" over the schools they attend and the curriculum they're taught.


If the SB had shown more backbone and consistency over the years (for example, by including the Langley attendance area in the redistricting plans and/or taking more consistent steps to reassign students to schools in the eastern part of the county with excess capacity), my bet is that the parents of kids affected by the SL moves would never have had such a negative reaction, because they wouldn't have felt "singled out" for change. As other posters have noted, however, county residents have no valid legal argument against the redistricting, at least where there was as much process and opportunity to comment surrounding the decision as was followed here.

I am more than content to allow others with a current interest, rather than a historical perspective, on the RD subject to have the last words on the topic. In rereading the many posts on this thread, however, it struck me that the most articulate and reasoned posts about the SL redistricting were written by current SL students and recent graduates themselves.

Did anyone catch the article in the Post today about the nutty McLean Elem. school principal who banned tag at recess?

What next-bubble wrap our kids?

I swear this school system has gone off the deep end. We need to save ourselves before it is too late.

TimeTraveller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In rereading the many posts
> on this thread, however, it struck me that the
> most articulate and reasoned posts about the SL
> redistricting were written by current SL students
> and recent graduates themselves.

Those would be the ones who wouldn't go near performance statistics ...

TimeTraveller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > Personal family ownership of educational
> quality
> > is more likely to drive system wide
> improvements
> > than handing it over to bureaucrats who,



> If you choose to send your kids to county schools,
> you should recognize that you exercise something
> substantially less than "personal family
> ownership" over the schools they attend and the
> curriculum they're taught.
>

There's a big difference between personal family ownership of educational quality (which is what I mentioned) and personal ownership of schools attendance (which you misquote)

Its entirely reasonable to expect not to be forced from a well functioning school to one with serious problems for someone else's convenience.

There aren't many people who would object being RD'd to TJ or Langley (commute notwithstanding), but everyone I've spoken to does or would object to being RD'd to a school with lower performance and expectations than their current school - especially ones which are failing AYP or achieve very poor SAT/SOL

That seems pretty reasonable to me

The SB's job is not to share the pain around to hide failures but to raise all standards by focusing on problems

Time Traveler shows himself or herself to be out of touch...

"I grew up in this county and remember when the enrollment at Oakton was much smaller in the late 70s/early 80s, before a lot of the new construction. It was just considered one more decent high school, among others, in the county.

Now it seems to be overcrowded - and unnecessarily so. If the school board had ANY backbone, it would quickly reassign some of the kids at Oakton to Madison, some of the kids at Madison and McLean to Marshall, and some of the kids at Marshall to Falls Church. But that won't happen - because they've seen how lawyered up and hyped up many of the parents are in these districts.

All this because of your opinion about how many people should be at the various schools?

Langley is way more crowded than Oakton, did you overlook that one?

Maybe we could just, I dunno, move you to West Virginia and call it good.

Flawed Measures
Fairfax Schools erred in measuring behavior by race and ethnicity.

Sunday, April 13, 2008; B06



THE NO Child Left Behind law has been blamed for everything from bad teaching to childhood obesity. Now comes the silly suggestion that the federal law's worthy aim of using data to drive student achievement is responsible for Fairfax County's misguided effort to catalogue the moral character of its students by race and ethnic group. If anything, the events in one of the country's most respected school systems attest to the very biases that allow brown and black children to be overlooked and left behind.

The county School Board is clearly embarrassed by a report that purports to show racial and ethnic gaps in student behavior. African American, Hispanic and special education students get lower marks than white and Asian American students in areas such as "sound moral character and ethical judgment." At the behest of at-large member Martina A. Hone, the board voted last week to postpone a decision on whether to accept the report. To our mind, the board should have rejected out of hand what Ms. Hone, the only African American on the board, correctly called "potentially damaging and hurtful" conclusions. That school officials are at a loss as to what they planned to do with the findings is as troubling as the fact that no one foresaw the folly of using race and ethnicity as markers for character.

This is not, as some have suggested, a case of harsh truths falling victim to political correctness. No scientific system or good data were used. Instead, the report relies upon the highly subjective judgments of teachers on whether a student "exhibits courteous behavior," "works and plays cooperatively" or displays other intangibles. Other measures employed, such as rates for suspension and disciplinary infractions, have been shown to disproportionately penalize minority students. If there is any use to these findings, it may be in what they say about the inherent biases of those who deal with Fairfax students. Why is it that teachers were more apt to see problems with the behavior or character of minority students? One board member, according to The Post's Michael Alison Chandler, was "perplexed" that disparities in measures of character education mirrored the gaps in academic achievement. No one should be surprised that students don't do well when their teachers expect less of them.

Fox Mill...why do you think you need to go to Oakton...you live closer to SL. It was inevitable that at some point you would get moved there. Sorry that it happened to be this year.

Lee Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a hard time coming to the SB's defense on
> this morality report. I read all of the documents
> presented and it was irresponsible to present this
> and not expect people to be outraged at the
> "conclusions" they were drawing.
>
> The analogy I will draw is when my kids come home
> with a bad grade on their report card. I hate it
> when they say, "I didn't know I had a D...". To me
> it is just as bad that they were clueless about
> what grade they were getting as the bad grade
> itself.
>
> The same is true with this SB. Not only was this
> report a bunch of garbage but the fact that Dale's
> people and The SB didn't know it was nuclear
> speaks volumes about how clueless they are.
>
> This school district has been devoting its energy
> to fighting NCLB standards when they tried to not
> test the ESL kids, tried to make the MSAOC report
> to Dale and lose their independence, do nothing
> with the dropout data report, attempt to cut
> programs which primarily benefit at risk kids, and
> understaff and ignore their failing schools.
>
> FCPS is light years behind MOCO in chipping away
> at the gap. They only made it a priority when
> Hone shamed them.
>
> I'm the one that sent the report to The Post. Jay
> Matthews's response was "Holy cow!" and this is a
> guy who has been around the block.

What evidence is there that MOCO is light years ahead of us in closing the gap? Or have they been quicker at lowering the top while bringing up the bottom? Surely they have resorted to real math and teaching children to read by proven methods. MOCO is MUCH too liberal for any of that nonsense.

The MSAOC is run by staff, chaired by staff, and staff writes the report. There is nothing independent about that advisory committee. The only independent advisory is the LD committee. The rest are run by staff, although not always chaired by staff. Staff writes the advisory committee reports, and then responds to their own reports, after they have been reported to the school board, a very circular arrangement.

Yes, FCPS did propose cutting some funding to the 9 different programs for Black students, for the same reason they proposed cutting some GT programs and GT busing. Such proposals bring out LOTS of protesters, on message boards, but more importantly, to the board of supervisors. Proposed cuts are carefully aimed at programs that ensure the most community objections. Cuts to the administration are never the focus because no one would care enough to write the board of supervisors, much less organize a protest.

Who are 'Dale's people'? The staff who wrote the report? Or some other staff people? Of course staff knew that there were more discipline/behavioral/moral problems among Blacks and Hispanics, as did the school board. As did everyone else. But they must search desperately for a reason that has nothing to do with race, or culture, since all races and all cultures are equal. Will the two weeks between school board meetings be long enough for staff to find justifications, to cover their butts, and find excuses that the school board can embrace? I suspect so. It will be BS, but they will come up with something to explain away the unpleasant facts.

GIVEMEABREAK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fox Mill...why do you think you need to go to
> Oakton...you live closer to SL. It was inevitable
> that at some point you would get moved there.
> Sorry that it happened to be this year.

Why was it inevitable? Because South Lakes declining population inevitable? Why? IB? Something else?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2008 11:01PM by Neen.

>>>There should be a guiding principle in any RD

- no homes should ever be redistricted into a lower performing school<<<

Higher performing schools don't need redistricting, they are rarely under enrolled, for obvious reasons. Parents tend to leave lower performing schools for better schools, not the other way around.

I will tell you the truth about Southlakes. I am a former SL parent. Southlakes pyramid are filled with administrators who dictate to the teachers. If you don't follow the rules, you are "retired" e and replaced with a young or very old teacher who will follow the rules. It is a means to an end. Take Sunrise Valley, the only high performing school which feeds into Southlakes. Sunrise Valley is underenrolled in spite of its relatively high scores. Problem is it feeds into Southlakes. Sunrise has an enormous GT center which draws from neighboring Reston elementary school including Sunrise. The "regular" classes are also pretty high performing. The sticky part is that a significant number of Oakton Elementary GT cchildren are bussed to Sunrise in order to fill up the center. I would estimate that about one third of the GT students draw from Oakton Elementary. The rest of the GT draws from various Reston elementary schools. i.e. In my daeyughter's GT class at Sunrise, the majority of the kids are from Oakton. About 4 children are from Sunrise. The remainder draw from surrounding RESTON elementary schools. In a nutshell, Sunrise needs Oakton to fill the center. Oakton parents are willing to send their children because they get to be in the GT center. Oakton does not have a GT center. Oakton parents are happy because after 6th grade, their children are NOT districted for Hughes/Southlakes. They go to Oakton/Madison, blue ribbon schools so no problem.

The principal at Sunrise is a dictator. The school has completely changed since they booted Christine Brogan and hired Beth English to be their hit man. Teachers are censored and told what to say. She hires only teachers she can control. Beth English was hired to increase the class size at Sunrise and subsequently get Sunrise kids at Southlakes. She is completely unflexible and Southlakes needs her. She does what they tell her to do and teachers are not allowed any flexibility to meet your child's needs. She will NEVER admit that Sunrise could do better. She relies on parents to volunteer while she sits back and takes credit. English censors the teachers; they are not allowed to talk about the middle/high school that Sunrise feeds in to. In conclusion, Sunrise teachers get too much credit. I'm sure the teachers would rather not be gagged, but if they want their jobs, they MUST follow English.

no bad thing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its entirely reasonable to expect not to be forced
> from a well functioning school to one with serious
> problems for someone else's convenience.
>
>
> The SB's job is not to share the pain around to
> hide failures but to raise all standards by
> focusing on problems

So - because a school such as South Lakes happens to have a larger minority population and somewhat lower test scores than a neighboring school, it's fair game for windbags such as you to label it as a school "with serious problems," Defamation and bigotry are a small price to pay where property values are at stake!

BS Detector Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no bad thing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its entirely reasonable to expect not to be
> forced
> > from a well functioning school to one with
> serious
> > problems for someone else's convenience.
> >
> >
> > The SB's job is not to share the pain around to
> > hide failures but to raise all standards by
> > focusing on problems
>
> So - because a school such as South Lakes happens
> to have a larger minority population and somewhat
> lower test scores than a neighboring school, it's
> fair game for windbags such as you to label it as
> a school "with serious problems," Defamation and
> bigotry are a small price to pay where property
> values are at stake!

nah,,, who's selling? There's more than one way to skin a cat

poor sat take rate
poor sat scores
poor drop out
poor sol

yup - it must be about property prices

rather than throwing terms like bigotry around, stfu for a moment and address the underlying problems

quit with the taglines and explain
a) why the performance is so bad
b) how RD helps solve it

I don't buy either the minority excuse (doesn't explain the asian vs latino performance gap in fcps) or the economic (again doesn't play out in the fcps numbers or personal experience)

quit with the accusations and come up with an explanation for poor performance that bears scrutiny

its not about property values - its about educational excellence rather than just going to school

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>There should be a guiding principle in any RD
>
> - no homes should ever be redistricted into a
> lower performing school<<<
>
> Higher performing schools don't need
> redistricting, they are rarely under enrolled, for
> obvious reasons. Parents tend to leave lower
> performing schools for better schools, not the
> other way around.

exactly

so why is the SB raiding successful schools and stable communities to backfill warm bodies into failing, under enrolled schools rather than fixing the root causes? Picking off communities without big political support - or in Janie's case throwing a neighborhood under the bus to save political favorites.