Hey BM

Why not be a big boy and admit that you underestimated the legal issues at play? You can still say that you are still confident that the SB will prevail. Your credibility on this forum is decent, not great, but decent. You can improve your credibility rating by being more introspective and honest. Extra points for actually reading the currently filed briefs, and providing a reasoned analysis for why you think the SB will prevail. A de facto "because the judge will uphold the SB is circular".




Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > TM: what happened to the demurrer that you
> were so sure about? Not only did the judge not
> end it all yesterday, but he has asked for
> additional briefs. From ALL accounts, the hearing
> definitely ended on a positive note for Caps.< <
>
> The hearing yesterday and a demurrer are not any
> different. No discovery was taken before the
> hearing. The parties argued law. There was any
> evidence offered was there?
>
> It sometimes happens that additional briefs are
> solicited by the Judge at a demurrer hearing.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Haven't seen the briefs, either. I would have thought given the discretion given to public administrative bodies, at least at the federal level, that it should have been a slam dunk for the SB's attorneys to craft an airtight defense.< <

We don't know that they didn't.

> > Sounds like the state law applicable to the SB is more constraining, and that the H&W litigation team is not exactly at the top of their game.< <

Cawley is highly respected within the bar.

> > Not to minimize the concern of posters here, litigating on behalf of a local school board is not exactly high-end work at a place like Hunton & Williams.< <

Actually, for a number of reasons, SB work is highly prized at a firm like H&W.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Neen Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Can you explain how the Dillon Rule would
> > apply
> > > in this circumstance?
> > > >
> > > > Where's Thomas More when we need him?
> > >
> > > Getting a good nights sleep.
> > >
> > > As to your question, Dillons Rules is a
> > principal
> > > that local governments have only the powers
> > > specifically delegated to them by the General
> > > Assembly.
> > >
> > > Not having been able to access Stone's brief,
> I
> > > can only speculate the his argument suggests
> > that
> > > because the General Assembly didn't authorize
> > the
> > > use of FRM or ESL in making boundary
> decisions,
> > > the SB may not use those metrics in forming a
> > RD.
> > >
> > > Cawley has, or will, counter with the
> > "reasonble
> > > means" doctrine which provides that when a
> > power
> > > is delegated to a local government, here the
> > power
> > > to redistict, the local government is allowed
> > to
> > > use any reasonable means to implement those
> > > powers.
> > >

>
> Haven't seen the briefs, either. I would have
> thought given the discretion given to public
> administrative bodies, at least at the federal
> level, that it should have been a slam dunk for
> the SB's attorneys to craft an airtight defense.
> Sounds like the state law applicable to the SB is
> more constraining, and that the H&W litigation
> team is not exactly at the top of their game. Not
> to minimize the concern of posters here,
> litigating on behalf of a local school board is
> not exactly high-end work at a place like Hunton &
> Williams. Should be interesting.

As TM said & was brought many pages back, as a Dillon's Rule state, local jurisdictions only have powers explicitly authorized in State Law. The State Law authorizing SBs to redistrict provides for redistricting for "efficiency" without defining the term. And, during the redistricting hearings and in the selection of schools brought to the party (missing Langley and all of Madison - given proximity and capacity issues at both), the SB made no attempt to show how "efficiency" had anything to do with their actions.

Given that, SB apparently had no intent to enhance efficiency. Since efficiency is the sole grounds on which the SB is authorized to redistrict, the SB exceeded it's authority & RD should be stopped.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
>

Cawley is seen as a tired old man within his firm. I have this from a new very senior partner. They thought this was a slam dunk and wanted the old man to notch another one up before he goes to pasture. They may win, or may not. His performance yesterday was reflected in the face of the judge, who covered his mouth to hide some yawns during Cawley's windbagging, particularly before the break. Cawley woke up, as did everyone else, near the end of his droning. The lady partner should have been given a chance.

And the associate in charge of the DVD was embarassing. For all their money spent on binder upon binder, they could have made a excerpt DVD, rather than fast forwarding/reversing back and forth. And it was funny when they'd stop and we'd all see Hone or someone saying how screwed up things were. Penny wise, pound foolish.

My favorite part of the hearing was how the SB attorney objected to the CAPS attorney playing only selected snippets of the SB meeting, basically saying (paraphrased) that is could be taken out of context. Less than an hour later, the SB attorney and his aides did the exact thing! Hilarious!

She was hot!



Moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
> >
>
> Cawley is seen as a tired old man within his firm.
> I have this from a new very senior partner. They
> thought this was a slam dunk and wanted the old
> man to notch another one up before he goes to
> pasture. They may win, or may not. His performance
> yesterday was reflected in the face of the judge,
> who covered his mouth to hide some yawns during
> Cawley's windbagging, particularly before the
> break. Cawley woke up, as did everyone else, near
> the end of his droning. The lady partner should
> have been given a chance.
>
> And the associate in charge of the DVD was
> embarassing. For all their money spent on binder
> upon binder, they could have made a excerpt DVD,
> rather than fast forwarding/reversing back and
> forth. And it was funny when they'd stop and we'd
> all see Hone or someone saying how screwed up
> things were. Penny wise, pound foolish.

CAPS advocate for Annandale? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't imagine for any moment that CAPS would
> advocate for any other high school in Fairfax
> County despite their propaganda. Once their
> concerns are finalized one way or another, some of
> them may migrate to FAIRGRADE and the rest of them
> will check out of school politics until it hits
> them personally again. These are not people who
> have any interest in the public good. If they
> were they would have started paying attention last
> July instead of in December.

Go crawl back under your rock. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Unless her voice was like Minnie Mouse, she definitely would have held the judge's opinion. I wonder what she sounds like in court...or anywhere else!


dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She was hot!
>
>
>
> Moore-ologist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
> > >
> >
> > Cawley is seen as a tired old man within his
> firm.
> > I have this from a new very senior partner.
> They
> > thought this was a slam dunk and wanted the old
> > man to notch another one up before he goes to
> > pasture. They may win, or may not. His
> performance
> > yesterday was reflected in the face of the
> judge,
> > who covered his mouth to hide some yawns during
> > Cawley's windbagging, particularly before the
> > break. Cawley woke up, as did everyone else,
> near
> > the end of his droning. The lady partner should
> > have been given a chance.
> >
> > And the associate in charge of the DVD was
> > embarassing. For all their money spent on
> binder
> > upon binder, they could have made a excerpt
> DVD,
> > rather than fast forwarding/reversing back and
> > forth. And it was funny when they'd stop and
> we'd
> > all see Hone or someone saying how screwed up
> > things were. Penny wise, pound foolish.

I meant to type she definitely would have held the judge's "attention"...though he might want her hold his opinion. She can hold my gavel anytime!


I saw her too Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unless her voice was like Minnie Mouse, she
> definitely would have held the judge's opinion. I
> wonder what she sounds like in court...or anywhere
> else!
>
>
> dog Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > She was hot!
> >
> >
> >
> > Moore-ologist Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Thomas More Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > > > Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Cawley is seen as a tired old man within his
> > firm.
> > > I have this from a new very senior partner.
> > They
> > > thought this was a slam dunk and wanted the
> old
> > > man to notch another one up before he goes to
> > > pasture. They may win, or may not. His
> > performance
> > > yesterday was reflected in the face of the
> > judge,
> > > who covered his mouth to hide some yawns
> during
> > > Cawley's windbagging, particularly before the
> > > break. Cawley woke up, as did everyone else,
> > near
> > > the end of his droning. The lady partner
> should
> > > have been given a chance.
> > >
> > > And the associate in charge of the DVD was
> > > embarassing. For all their money spent on
> > binder
> > > upon binder, they could have made a excerpt
> > DVD,
> > > rather than fast forwarding/reversing back
> and
> > > forth. And it was funny when they'd stop and
> > we'd
> > > all see Hone or someone saying how screwed up
> > > things were. Penny wise, pound foolish.

So maybe that explains why the judge was slow from getting up from his chair!

Breathes life into "Counselor, I'll see you in my chambers."


I saw her too Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I meant to type she definitely would have held the
> judge's "attention"...though he might want her
> hold his opinion. She can hold my gavel anytime!
>
>
> I saw her too Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Unless her voice was like Minnie Mouse, she
> > definitely would have held the judge's opinion.
> I
> > wonder what she sounds like in court...or
> anywhere
> > else!
> >
> >
> > dog Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > She was hot!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Moore-ologist Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Thomas More Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > >
> > > > > Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cawley is seen as a tired old man within
> his
> > > firm.
> > > > I have this from a new very senior partner.
> > > They
> > > > thought this was a slam dunk and wanted the
> > old
> > > > man to notch another one up before he goes
> to
> > > > pasture. They may win, or may not. His
> > > performance
> > > > yesterday was reflected in the face of the
> > > judge,
> > > > who covered his mouth to hide some yawns
> > during
> > > > Cawley's windbagging, particularly before
> the
> > > > break. Cawley woke up, as did everyone
> else,
> > > near
> > > > the end of his droning. The lady partner
> > should
> > > > have been given a chance.
> > > >
> > > > And the associate in charge of the DVD was
> > > > embarassing. For all their money spent on
> > > binder
> > > > upon binder, they could have made a excerpt
> > > DVD,
> > > > rather than fast forwarding/reversing back
> > and
> > > > forth. And it was funny when they'd stop
> and
> > > we'd
> > > > all see Hone or someone saying how screwed
> up
> > > > things were. Penny wise, pound foolish.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPS advocate for Annandale? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I can't imagine for any moment that CAPS would
> > advocate for any other high school in Fairfax
> > County despite their propaganda. Once their
> > concerns are finalized one way or another, some
> of
> > them may migrate to FAIRGRADE and the rest of
> them
> > will check out of school politics until it hits
> > them personally again. These are not people
> who
> > have any interest in the public good. If they
> > were they would have started paying attention
> last
> > July instead of in December.
>
> Go crawl back under your rock. You don't have a
> clue what you're talking about.


I don't know where this ugliness comes from. Rather than castigate about what they may or may not do, Annandale folks should join Caps...

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CAPS advocate for Annandale? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I can't imagine for any moment that CAPS
> would
> > > advocate for any other high school in Fairfax
> > > County despite their propaganda. Once their
> > > concerns are finalized one way or another,
> some
> > of
> > > them may migrate to FAIRGRADE and the rest of
> > them
> > > will check out of school politics until it
> hits
> > > them personally again. These are not people
> > who
> > > have any interest in the public good. If
> they
> > > were they would have started paying attention
> > last
> > > July instead of in December.
> >
> > Go crawl back under your rock. You don't have
> a
> > clue what you're talking about.
>
>
> I don't know where this ugliness comes from.
> Rather than castigate about what they may or may
> not do, Annandale folks should join Caps...


Caps is an advocacy group. Anyone who wants to join and put "public good" issues on the table are clearly welcome and encouraged to do so. It's the folks outside of FM, FL and MI who will determine if Caps is a "one issue" organization.

dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She was hot!
>
>
>
> >
> > And the associate in charge of the DVD was
> > embarassing. For all their money spent on
> binder
> > upon binder, they could have made a excerpt
> DVD,
> > rather than fast forwarding/reversing back and
> > forth. And it was funny when they'd stop and
> we'd
> > all see Hone or someone saying how screwed up
> > things were. Penny wise, pound foolish.

Dude:

Tina Hone ain't hot.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CAPS advocate for Annandale? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I can't imagine for any moment that CAPS
> would
> > > advocate for any other high school in Fairfax
> > > County despite their propaganda. Once their
> > > concerns are finalized one way or another,
> some
> > of
> > > them may migrate to FAIRGRADE and the rest of
> > them
> > > will check out of school politics until it
> hits
> > > them personally again. These are not people
> > who
> > > have any interest in the public good. If
> they
> > > were they would have started paying attention
> > last
> > > July instead of in December.
> >
> > Go crawl back under your rock. You don't have
> a
> > clue what you're talking about.
>
>
> I don't know where this ugliness comes from.
> Rather than castigate about what they may or may
> not do, Annandale folks should join Caps...

I agree with you 100%. Rather than author ignorant posts like "CAPS advocate for Annandale?", if people are genuinely concerned about a future Annandale/Falls Church redistricting, or any other SB issue for that matter, they should volunteer some of their time, perhaps join CAPS to help them expand their reach so that they can be an advocate for ALL FFC schools. CAPS may have a lot of supporters, including financial ones, but the group of people actually doing all the CAPS legwork thus far is very small. They have lives too, full time jobs, etc. They can only do so much. and of course, they will dedicate their limited resources on issues that affect them most.

To "CAPS advocate for Annandale?", put your money where your mouth is. Instead of bitching about CAPS, volunteer. If you don't like CAPS, volunteer your time to some other group that shares your conerns.

Some folks like BBW....did you see how Stu was gazing at Tina at all those hearings...a little drool at the corner of his mouth. Whatever floats your boat Stu-boy.

I'll take the partner chick. I liked that she was wearing a thong under her well-fitted pants. No lines...nice. She'd be good in a bikini.


>
> Dude:
>
> Tina Hone ain't hot.

Hey BM...there was some discovery. You keep making crap up. Not sure what is your game here. You make statements with implied authority and erudition, leaving folks the impression you know what your talking about. You're just a smarty-pants doink. I surmise you are an ex-attorney or law school dropout trying to sound important to yourself and your boyfriend. I guess the respect some others here toss your way makes you feel good...whatever.

Here is a definition from Wikipedia...In common law civil procedure, a demurrer is a pleading by the defendant that contests the legal sufficiency of the complaint without admitting or denying the allegations therein. Demurrers are usually filed at the beginning of a case. It is filed before the answer and can be characterized as the defendant’s way of saying “so what?” after reading a plaintiff's complaint. Clearly, the SB did not file a demurrer, and the judge is not going to issue one. And a hearing and a demurrer are not the same...a hearing is ....a hearing! A demurrer is a pleading transcribed on a piece of paper.

So you used a term with great authority without knowing what it meant. Dingleberry! And did you know that Virginia changed its rules of civil procedure a few years ago, and changed its forms of pleading to conform to the rest of the nation. A pox on your dumb ass statements.

Another thing,...you don't know crap what the bar thinks of Cawley. Are you even in the bar (not the old drinking hole)? Did you participate in some survey about Cawley? Did he get some kind of award from his peers? I think that at best, you're backfilling to cover up your previous hollow and arrogant pontifications/pronouncements. Either that or you are some double-double agent, castigating SL and the RD out of both sides of your mouth to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of true believers.

On this forum you need to either produce some analysis/facts to back up your sweeping statements (perhaps redacted to protect non-players), offer histrionic cries, insult someone, or tell jokes. But don't be a smarmy smarty-pants who masks agenda and opinion in grand (but ignorant) statements. Gettin' kinda sick of you...you need to come back in under a new moniker with a new song.






Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > TM: what happened to the demurrer that you
> were so sure about? Not only did the judge not
> end it all yesterday, but he has asked for
> additional briefs. From ALL accounts, the hearing
> definitely ended on a positive note for Caps.< <
>
> The hearing yesterday and a demurrer are not any
> different. No discovery was taken before the
> hearing. The parties argued law. There was any
> evidence offered was there?
>
> It sometimes happens that additional briefs are
> solicited by the Judge at a demurrer hearing.

moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey BM...there was some discovery. You keep
> making crap up. Not sure what is your game here.
> You make statements with implied authority and
> erudition, leaving folks the impression you know
> what your talking about. You're just a
> smarty-pants doink. I surmise you are an
> ex-attorney or law school dropout trying to sound
> important to yourself and your boyfriend. I guess
> the respect some others here toss your way makes
> you feel good...whatever.
>
> Here is a definition from Wikipedia...In common
> law civil procedure, a demurrer is a pleading by
> the defendant that contests the legal sufficiency
> of the complaint without admitting or denying the
> allegations therein. Demurrers are usually filed
> at the beginning of a case. It is filed before the
> answer and can be characterized as the defendant’s
> way of saying “so what?” after reading a
> plaintiff's complaint. Clearly, the SB did not
> file a demurrer, and the judge is not going to
> issue one. And a hearing and a demurrer are not
> the same...a hearing is ....a hearing! A demurrer
> is a pleading transcribed on a piece of paper.
>
> So you used a term with great authority without
> knowing what it meant. Dingleberry! And did you
> know that Virginia changed its rules of civil
> procedure a few years ago, and changed its forms
> of pleading to conform to the rest of the nation.
> A pox on your dumb ass statements.
>
> Another thing,...you don't know crap what the bar
> thinks of Cawley. Are you even in the bar (not
> the old drinking hole)? Did you participate in
> some survey about Cawley? Did he get some kind of
> award from his peers? I think that at best,
> you're backfilling to cover up your previous
> hollow and arrogant pontifications/pronouncements.
> Either that or you are some double-double agent,
> castigating SL and the RD out of both sides of
> your mouth to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of
> true believers.
>
> On this forum you need to either produce some
> analysis/facts to back up your sweeping statements
> (perhaps redacted to protect non-players), offer
> histrionic cries, insult someone, or tell jokes.
> But don't be a smarmy smarty-pants who masks
> agenda and opinion in grand (but ignorant)
> statements. Gettin' kinda sick of you...you need
> to come back in under a new moniker with a new
> song.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Huh? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > > TM: what happened to the demurrer that you
> > were so sure about? Not only did the judge not
> > end it all yesterday, but he has asked for
> > additional briefs. From ALL accounts, the
> hearing
> > definitely ended on a positive note for Caps.<
> <
> >
> > The hearing yesterday and a demurrer are not
> any
> > different. No discovery was taken before the
> > hearing. The parties argued law. There was any
> > evidence offered was there?
> >
> > It sometimes happens that additional briefs are
> > solicited by the Judge at a demurrer hearing.


For the record, Neenologist and Moore-ologist are different posters.

Neenologist - as some would claim about CAPS - is a single-issue poster with a narrow agenda: calling Neen to task when her ideological excesses lead her to dump unfairly on schools, communities and individuals. When Neen does focus on issues, and finds amusing ways to make her points (book reviews, deconstructing TOK), Neenologist almost believes a "rapprochement" (a term favored by IB-influenced francophiles) is possible.

Moore-ologist, on the other hand, appears to be aiming for nothing less than nuclear war with Thomas More.

Neenologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> moore-ologist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey BM...there was some discovery. You keep
> > making crap up. Not sure what is your game
> here.
> > You make statements with implied authority and
> > erudition, leaving folks the impression you
> know
> > what your talking about. You're just a
> > smarty-pants doink. I surmise you are an
> > ex-attorney or law school dropout trying to
> sound
> > important to yourself and your boyfriend. I
> guess
> > the respect some others here toss your way
> makes
> > you feel good...whatever.
> >
> > Here is a definition from Wikipedia...In common
> > law civil procedure, a demurrer is a pleading
> by
> > the defendant that contests the legal
> sufficiency
> > of the complaint without admitting or denying
> the
> > allegations therein. Demurrers are usually
> filed
> > at the beginning of a case. It is filed before
> the
> > answer and can be characterized as the
> defendant

Moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey BM
>
> Why not be a big boy and admit that you underestimated the legal issues at play? You can still say that you are still confident that the SB will prevail. Your credibility on this forum is decent, not great, but decent. You can improve your credibility rating by being more introspective and honest. Extra points for actually reading the currently filed briefs, and providing a reasoned analysis for why you think the SB will prevail. A de facto "because the judge will uphold the SB is circular".< <

Dear troll

I've already analyzed the issues in this case several times on this forum.

I tried more than once to read the briefs but the file was always with the judge's clerk when I sought the file from the clerk's office.

But then you'd have to actually read the posts here.

BM

I have read all of your postings...pompous posing by a faker interspersed with some heartfelt commentary. Here's the deal.....you have none of the background you pretend to have. You're a fake. Tell me again what is a demurrer and how the judge is going to rule on it? Doink






Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moore-ologist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey BM
> >
> > Why not be a big boy and admit that you
> underestimated the legal issues at play? You can
> still say that you are still confident that the SB
> will prevail. Your credibility on this forum is
> decent, not great, but decent. You can improve
> your credibility rating by being more
> introspective and honest. Extra points for
> actually reading the currently filed briefs, and
> providing a reasoned analysis for why you think
> the SB will prevail. A de facto "because the
> judge will uphold the SB is circular".< <
>
> Dear troll
>
> I've already analyzed the issues in this case
> several times on this forum.
>
> I tried more than once to read the briefs but the
> file was always with the judge's clerk when I
> sought the file from the clerk's office.
>
> But then you'd have to actually read the posts
> here.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not So Obvious Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Haven't seen the briefs, either. I would have
> thought given the discretion given to public
> administrative bodies, at least at the federal
> level, that it should have been a slam dunk for
> the SB's attorneys to craft an airtight defense.<
> <
>
> We don't know that they didn't.
>
> > > Sounds like the state law applicable to the SB
> is more constraining, and that the H&W litigation
> team is not exactly at the top of their game.< <
>
> Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
>
> > > Not to minimize the concern of posters here,
> litigating on behalf of a local school board is
> not exactly high-end work at a place like Hunton &
> Williams.< <
>
> Actually, for a number of reasons, SB work is
> highly prized at a firm like H&W.

Thomas - Interesting observations to which I would respond as follows:

1. While people are getting quite excited and drawing all sorts of inferences from the oral arguments, this seems like the type of case that will be decided primarily on arguments set forth in written submissions. Do you agree?

2. My observation with respect to Mr. Cawley was based on the reports of other posters. It did not sound like a dynamic oral argument, but then again that may not matter much at the end of the day.

3. I can see how, for a firm like Hunton & Williams, doing work for a local school board might be helpful in cultivating relationships with state officials and some of the business types who serve on those boards. So it may be important for H&W, which started out as a Richmond firm, and has expanded over the years. For a top national firm, however, this type of work would still not be considered high-end.

moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey TM...there was some discovery.< <

Tell me dear troll, just what discovery was had in less than 3 months?

> Here is a definition from Wikipedia...In common law civil procedure, a demurrer is a pleading by the defendant that contests the legal sufficiency of the complaint without admitting or denying the allegations therein. Demurrers are usually filed at the beginning of a case. It is filed before the answer and can be characterized as the defendant’s way of saying “so what?” after reading a plaintiff's complaint. Clearly, the SB did not file a demurrer, and the judge is not going to issue one. And a hearing and a demurrer are not the same...a hearing is ....a hearing! A demurrer is a pleading transcribed on a piece of paper. < <

Having argued and prevailed in having a demurrer overruled within the last month, I have no need for reference to Wikipedia. A 2 or 3 hour hearing administrative appeal is far closer in form and substance to a demurrer hearing than a trial with multiple witnesses. It is an argument of law and not a contest of fact.

> > So you used a term with great authority without knowing what it meant. Dingleberry! And did you know that Virginia changed its rules of civil procedure a few years ago, and changed its forms of pleading to conform to the rest of the nation.< <

No, it did not. The plea in bar, demurrer and motion to strike are still in full use here. The Virginia Supreme Court did merge the equity and law dockets and provide for a single form of initial pleading though the Justices of the Court took care to emphasize that law and equity had not been merged.

> > Another thing,...you don't know crap what the bar thinks of Cawley. Are you even in the bar (not the old drinking hole)? Did you participate in some survey about Cawley? Did he get some kind of award from his peers.< <

Simply reporting the opinions of other attorneys.

> > Either that or you are some double-double agent, castigating SL and the RD out of both sides of your mouth to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of true believers.< <

Neither, only an independent mind and voice.

> > Gettin' kinda sick of you< <

Feel free not to read my posts.

Moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BM
>
> I have read all of your postings...pompous posing by a faker interspersed with some heartfelt commentary.< <

I doubt that as they number almost 1000.

> > Here's the deal.....you have none of the background you pretend to have. You're a fake.< <

As if you could possibly have any way to know.

> > Tell me again what is a demurrer and how the judge is going to rule on it?< <

I fully expect Judge Finch to uphold the SB.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Having argued and prevailed in having a demurrer
> overruled within the last month, I have no need
> for reference to Wikipedia. A 2 or 3 hour hearing
> administrative appeal is far closer in form and
> substance to a demurrer hearing than a trial with
> multiple witnesses. It is an argument of law and
> not a contest of fact.
>
>

Dear BM

You again are wrong. The judge did ask for witnesses, but both sides declined. And there are issues of fact at play...to wit whether or not the SB actively considered socioeconomics when developing options and voting, or whether these were ancillary parameters tallied as an FYI. The SB initially denied they even considered socioeconomics when making their decision.

And you continue to limp along, faking your knowledge. A demurrer is just what was quoted...neither a denial or admission of guilt, but dispute about whether a cause of action was pled. An admin hearing is not a demurrer, nor is it a hearing on a demurrer. And the SB did not file a demurrer, and no demurrer is present for the judge to rule upon. You are just making things up. The only arguments you've had in the last few months are those on the underground.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > 1. While people are getting quite excited and drawing all sorts of inferences from the oral arguments, this seems like the type of case that will be decided primarily on arguments set forth in written submissions. Do you agree?< <

Arguments on the law, as opposed to arguments over facts, most often are.

> 2. My observation with respect to Mr. Cawley was based on the reports of other posters. It did not sound like a dynamic oral argument, but then again that may not matter much at the end of the day.< <
>
> > 3. I can see how, for a firm like Hunton & Williams, doing work for a local school board might be helpful in cultivating relationships with state officials and some of the business types who serve on those boards. So it may be important for H&W, which started out as a Richmond firm, and has expanded over the years. For a top national firm, however, this type of work would still not be considered high-end.< <

Such a perspective is a mistake regularly made by such supposed "national" firms along with many, many others.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moore-ologist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BM
> >
> > I have read all of your postings...pompous
> posing by a faker interspersed with some heartfelt
> commentary.< <
>
> I doubt that as they number almost 1000.
>
> > > Here's the deal.....you have none of the
> background you pretend to have. You're a fake.<
> <
>
> As if you could possibly have any way to know.
>
> > > Tell me again what is a demurrer and how the
> judge is going to rule on it?< <
>
> I fully expect Judge Finch to uphold the SB.

As if you could possibly have any way to know.

Did the CAPS lawyer bring up the fact that Coppermine is coming next?

Anyone have any idea when the scope of that study will be established? If the SL RD stands, are there any good arguments for not sending Fox Mill/Floris to Hughes?

moore-ologist Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> You again are wrong. The judge did ask for witnesses, but both sides declined.< <

Neither side offerred witnesses because it was an argument of law.

Noticing that you failed to answer my question, what discovery was had?

> And there are issues of fact at play...to wit whether or not the SB actively considered socioeconomics when developing options and voting, or whether these
> were ancillary parameters tallied as an FYI. The SB initially denied they even considered socioeconomics when making their decision.< <

And the evidence introduced by both sides on this point was what exactly, since no witnesses testified?

> > And you continue to limp along, faking your knowledge. A demurrer is just what was quoted...neither a denial or admission of guilt, but dispute about whether a cause of action was pled. An admin hearing is not a demurrer, nor is it a hearing on a demurrer. And the SB did not file a demurrer, and no demurrer is present for the judge to rule upon. You are just making things up. The only arguments you've had in the last few months are those on the underground.< <

Wrong again, troll

Oh, by the way, as reported here and elsewhere, Cawley's argument appears exactly to amount to: "so what?"

moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > > I have read all of your postings...pompous
> > posing by a faker interspersed with some
> heartfelt
> > commentary.< <
> >
> > I doubt that as they number almost 1000.

No come back!?

> > > > Here's the deal.....you have none of the
> > background you pretend to have. You're a
> fake.<
> > <
> >
> > As if you could possibly have any way to know.

No come back again!?

> > > > Tell me again what is a demurrer and how
> the
> > judge is going to rule on it?< <
> >
> > I fully expect Judge Finch to uphold the SB.
>
> As if you could possibly have any way to know.

Ah imitation the most sincere form of flattery.

Back under your bridge now - you lose.

┏┫　　｜　｜　 ┣┓　　　
┗┫━━　┃　━━┣┛　　┣┫
　┃　━━━━━　┃　┏┳┫┣┳┓　
　┗━━┳━┳━━┛　┃　　　　┃FUCK U 4 WASTING
━━━━┃　┃　　　　┗━┳┳━┛MY TIME!!!!!!!!!
━━━━┃　┗━━━━━━┛┃



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2008 07:17PM by ferfux.

Alas, poor BM...how sad that your gig is up.

I thought some of your comments were too dumb to respond to. But, here you go. Yes I read alllllll of your posts under this moniker or any other. I too have been an active poster from near the beginning. I have read every post on this site. Not that such a feat is an achievement. No way of proving it to you.

Re: discovery....I can guarantee it happened, but to reveal the nature of the inquiry would tell too much on a supposedly anonymous forum. Perhaps when the suit is completed, I can post a PDF of the requests and responses.

And I offer you the sincerest flattery...you have bluffed and puffed for a long time without apparent fatigue. Those multivitamins must really work. Re: the contents of your posts...for awhile I too was in your thrall. But no longer. Too many erroneous and/or unsubstantiated blurts. I dont mind people posting dumbass statements...but it chaps my butt when the dumbass statements are cloaked in a false suit of knowledge.

Re: troll...anyone who posts 1000 times is the real troll. You're a troll....no, you're a troll...no, you're a troll...no, you're a troll...no, you're a troll...no, you're a troll...no, you're a troll...no, you're a troll...not an effective come back.

Now, tell us again the definition of epistomology? I swoon when you sound so smart.




Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> moore-ologist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > > > I have read all of your postings...pompous
> > > posing by a faker interspersed with some
> > heartfelt
> > > commentary.< <
> > >
> > > I doubt that as they number almost 1000.
>
> No come back!?
>
> > > > > Here's the deal.....you have none of the
> > > background you pretend to have. You're a
> > fake.<
> > > <
> > >
> > > As if you could possibly have any way to
> know.
>
> No come back again!?
>
> > > > > Tell me again what is a demurrer and how
> > the
> > > judge is going to rule on it?< <
> > >
> > > I fully expect Judge Finch to uphold the SB.
> >
> > As if you could possibly have any way to know.
>
> Ah imitation the most sincere form of flattery.
>
> Back under your bridge now - you lose.

I think some of these posters need to get a room!! All this passion should be channeled to productive uses....make love not war! Neen and Neenologist in one room, and Moore and Moore-ologist in another...what would they spawn?


ferfux Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ┏┫　　｜　A
> 372;　
> ┣┓　　　
> ┗┫━━　┃　
> ;━━┣┛　　ζ
> 7;┫
> 　┃　━━━━
> ;━　┃　┏┳η
> 5;┣┳┓　
> 　┗━━┳━┳
> ━━┛　┃　ӌ
> 8;　　┃FUCK U 4 WAISTING
> ━━━━┃　┃
> 　　　　┗━_
> 23;┳━┛MY TIME!!!!!!!!!
> ━━━━┃　┗
> ━━━━━━┛&
> #9475;

┏┫　　｜　｜　 ┣┓　　　

I agree. Come and fuck me in a hotel room. All the redistricting folks need to get laid. Make Love not redistricting threads.

moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I too have been an active poster from near the beginning.

You only started posting today and cannot spell. More has only one "o."

> > I have read every post on this site. Not that such a feat is an achievement. No way of proving it to you.< <

You could if you had.

> > Re: discovery....I can guarantee it happened, but to reveal the nature of the inquiry would tell too much on a supposedly anonymous forum. Perhaps when the suit is completed, I can post a PDF of the requests and responses.< <

Again, if you had seen such discovery, you'd find a way to demonstrate such knowledge.

> > Re: troll...anyone who posts 1000 times is the real troll.

Well, why don't you tell us how Wikipedia defines "troll"? We can't wait.

> > Now, tell us again the definition of epistomology? I swoon when you sound so smart.< <

So easily impressed.

I just have to wonder...it's a holiday for crying out loud...don't you people have families? If so, why are you engaging in an online flame war and pissing contest? I know that it is really none of my business how you choose to spend your time, but you can't find ANYTHING more productive and rewarding to spend your time?

Sorry to interrupt...you may now return to your regular programming.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Not having been able to access Stone's brief, I
> can only speculate the his argument suggests that
> because the General Assembly didn't authorize the
> use of FRM or ESL in making boundary decisions,
> the SB may not use those metrics in forming a RD.
>
> Cawley has, or will, counter with the "reasonble
> means" doctrine which provides that when a power
> is delegated to a local government, here the power
> to redistict, the local government is allowed to
> use any reasonable means to implement those
> powers.
>
> Judge Finch was, I believe, was appointed to both
> the JDR and Circuit Court while the General
> Assembly was controlled by the Ds.
>
> Of the 15 or more judges on the Fairfax Circuit
> Court, there are many others that are more highly
> regarded by the Bar.

Finch was appointed in 2000. I believe republicans were in control of the General Assembly then.

I would agree that Finch hasn't yet made a name for himself. This case could do that, as I am sure he is aware. If he rules that school boards cannot use income, or socio economics, or whatever the PC term is for race, Judge Finch will very quickly become well known.

The petition is here:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:BUk5p77gsv8J:www.fairfaxcaps.org/images/lawsuit_full.pdf+Dillon+rule,+Virginia,+school+board&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us&client=firefox-a

From the news reports, it doesn't sound like the FCPS spent our money wisely when they hired Hunton.

>
> More importantly there will be 3500 more kids next
> year that weren't expected.

Really? Where might they come from? FCPS has an increase over 900 in one year for over a decade. Why this fall?
Not going to happen, regardless of what Dr. Dale is hoping for and telling the school board.
>
> There isn't as much need for Countywide study
> anymore and I don't see 7 votes for a countywide
> study. There are a few spots here and there (many
> which could be cleaned up administratively) and 2
> schools with small utilization with one being
> worked on. They discuss boundaries all the time,
> Neen, but it is in the summer when they get into
> the scope and weeds of a boundary study for the
> upcoming Fall. What should they have learned from
> South Lakes that is any different from what they
> should have learned from doing 3 in a row in the
> southern part fo the County?

Glad to hear that there is no need to redistrict Falls Church, Mount Vernon, Hayfield, or South County. The school board has no stomach for redistricting after this last year.

What they learned is how flawed their process is and that they can't fool people like they could in the past. There is too much information now available on the internet. The majority of staff members are not internet savvy. They were shocked to find so many parents who are able to access the facts from the net. Their old ways of doing redistricting simply do not work. There is no way they will try to do it that way again. The only possible way is to have an outside source set the parameters and make the decisions for the board. If you say that they won't even do that, I would tend to agree. They won't do any redistricting that they don't have to, for at least another year.

Not So Obvious Wrote:


>
> Haven't seen the briefs, either. I would have
> thought given the discretion given to public
> administrative bodies, at least at the federal
> level, that it should have been a slam dunk for
> the SB's attorneys to craft an airtight defense.
> Sounds like the state law applicable to the SB is
> more constraining, and that the H&W litigation
> team is not exactly at the top of their game. Not
> to minimize the concern of posters here,
> litigating on behalf of a local school board is
> not exactly high-end work at a place like Hunton &
> Williams. Should be interesting.

FCPS has its own lawyers. Why are taxpayers paying for a high price firm like Hunton? And why weren't they better prepared? Did Hunton assume the case would be dismissed?

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but here is the Petition:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:BUk5p77gsv8J:www.fairfaxcaps.org/images/lawsuit_full.pdf+Dillon+rule,+Virginia,+school+board&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us&client=firefox-a

CAPS advocate for Annandale? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't imagine for any moment that CAPS would
> advocate for any other high school in Fairfax
> County despite their propaganda. Once their
> concerns are finalized one way or another, some of
> them may migrate to FAIRGRADE and the rest of them
> will check out of school politics until it hits
> them personally again. These are not people who
> have any interest in the public good. If they
> were they would have started paying attention last
> July instead of in December.

CAPS didn't exist last July. Now it does. CAPS is already involved in the Coppermine redistricting, and the possible redistricting to Hughes.

CAPS newsletters and report cards are great although they have nothing to do with redistricting. They are a great service to parents and to people looking to move into FCPS and looking for good schools.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not So Obvious Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Haven't seen the briefs, either. I would have
> thought given the discretion given to public
> administrative bodies, at least at the federal
> level, that it should have been a slam dunk for
> the SB's attorneys to craft an airtight defense.<
> <
>
> We don't know that they didn't.
>
> > > Sounds like the state law applicable to the SB
> is more constraining, and that the H&W litigation
> team is not exactly at the top of their game.< <
>
> Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
>
> > > Not to minimize the concern of posters here,
> litigating on behalf of a local school board is
> not exactly high-end work at a place like Hunton &
> Williams.< <
>
> Actually, for a number of reasons, SB work is
> highly prized at a firm like H&W.

Why? If it's a slam dunk, why would it be highly prized? Why can't the School board use the lawyers that they have on staff to defend their choices in court?

Moore-ologist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Cawley is highly respected within the bar.
> >
>
> Cawley is seen as a tired old man within his firm.
> I have this from a new very senior partner. They
> thought this was a slam dunk and wanted the old
> man to notch another one up before he goes to
> pasture. They may win, or may not. His
> performance yesterday was reflected in the face of
> the judge, who covered his mouth to hide some
> yawns during Cawley's windbagging, particularly
> before the break. Cawley woke up, as did everyone
> else, near the end of his droning. The lady
> partner should have been given a chance.
>
> And the associate in charge of the DVD was
> embarassing. For all their money spent on binder
> upon binder, they could have made a excerpt DVD,
> rather than fast forwarding/reversing back and
> forth. And it was funny when they'd stop and we'd
> all see Hone or someone saying how screwed up
> things were. Penny wise, pound foolish.

What is with FCPS and binders? They LOVE them, pass them out at every meeting. They must buy them by the thousands.

I can't believe they didn't have an excerpt DVD. FCPS used the entire thing? How silly.

Why does FCPS have a staff of over 10,000 yet no one can do anything? Why do they always have to hire outside consultants? They can't even use their own attorneys in court.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I fully expect Judge Finch to uphold the SB.

Not if he wants to make a name for himself.

Why didn't the Judge rule for the School Board yesterday?

Press release on court hearing:
http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/images/FairfaxCAPS_PR_08070

CAPS is a an impressive organization. It just shows what smart people, with a little money, can do. FCPS had no idea what would happen when they decided to redistrict South Lakes. They're like deer caught in the headlights.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Press release on court hearing:
> http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/images/FairfaxCAPS_PR_0
> 8070
>
> CAPS is a an impressive organization. It just
> shows what smart people, with a little money, can
> do. FCPS had no idea what would happen when they
> decided to redistrict South Lakes. They're like
> deer caught in the headlights.


I agree. They probably thought that FM and FL--unlike Langley and other wealthier communities in FC-- wouldn't be able to pull together the resources for a decent legal battle. I'm thankful that so many people stood up and said we're not going to let them just roll over us. I'm grateful that so many volunteers at Caps have put in so much of their time. Hopefully, we will have good news on July 25..and the SB will have to start scrambling to put things right again.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Press release on court hearing:
> >
> http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/images/FairfaxCAPS_PR_0
>
> > 8070
> >
> > CAPS is a an impressive organization. It just
> > shows what smart people, with a little money,
> can
> > do. FCPS had no idea what would happen when
> they
> > decided to redistrict South Lakes. They're
> like
> > deer caught in the headlights.
>
>
> I agree. They probably thought that FM and
> FL--unlike Langley and other wealthier communities
> in FC-- wouldn't be able to pull together the
> resources for a decent legal battle. I'm thankful
> that so many people stood up and said we're not
> going to let them just roll over us. I'm grateful
> that so many volunteers at Caps have put in so
> much of their time. Hopefully, we will have good
> news on July 25..and the SB will have to start
> scrambling to put things right again.


Yes, I agree too. How could the SB say that their boundary study was throughout and sound when it was NOT to begin with. Let's wait and see what the decision will be on July 25th.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > CAPS is a an impressive organization. It just
> > shows what smart people, with a little money,
> can
> > do. FCPS had no idea what would happen when
> they
> > decided to redistrict South Lakes. They're
> like
> > deer caught in the headlights.
>
>
> I agree. They probably thought that FM and
> FL--unlike Langley and other wealthier communities
> in FC-- wouldn't be able to pull together the
> resources for a decent legal battle. I'm thankful
> that so many people stood up and said we're not
> going to let them just roll over us. I'm grateful
> that so many volunteers at Caps have put in so
> much of their time. Hopefully, we will have good
> news on July 25..and the SB will have to start
> scrambling to put things right again.

The school board will have to go back to the boundaries as they were last year.

CAPS should be very proud of themselves. They've sent a very strong message to the SB. It's not just Langley people who can use the internet, hire lawyers, and fight back. This whole process has been a nightmare for them. They had NO idea when Stu told them that he was going to redistrict South Lakes and it would be just a little upset in Hunter Mill and Sully districts. Hehehehehe...........

>>>Yes, I agree too. How could the SB say that their boundary study was throughout and sound when it was NOT to begin with. Let's wait and see what the decision will be on July 25th.<<<

The SB knew all along what they were doing and they knew it was for no other reason than Stu wanted more white and Asian kids put into South Lakes. What they did not know (but should have) was the reaction that they would receive from the effected communities.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPS should be very proud of themselves. They've
> sent a very strong message to the SB. It's not
> just Langley people who can use the internet, hire
> lawyers, and fight back. This whole process has
> been a nightmare for them. They had NO idea when
> Stu told them that he was going to redistrict
> South Lakes and it would be just a little upset in
> Hunter Mill and Sully districts.
> Hehehehehe...........

When did anyone from Langley need to "use the internet, hire lawyers, and fight back" to fend off the School Board? They are "RD-proof" - thanks to Jane Strauss and the deals that she cuts with Stu Gibson and others.

There are people from FM/Floris who have already sold their homes at a loss to move back into Oakton and Westfield districts. Even if CAPS wins, they don't get reimbursed. No one from Langley goes through this. Ever.

The biggest winners if CAPS prevails will be those who stayed put, pupil placed, and now won't have to deal with the transportation hassles. If they have 9th graders, those students will probably be grandfathered even if the School Board does another RD with a "new and improved process" next year.

Yes, Langley never has to go through this because Janie protects her Langley community. She's a great rep for them and would never let them go through redistricting. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had that kind of representation on the school board?

In addition to having Janie for a rep on the board, other board members know that Langley district is filled with lawyers and money and they know how to use both. What the SB didn't know is that Floris, Fox Mill, and Navy districts also have smart people, money and lawyers. The SB did not anticipate the reactions that they got from these communities. The SB KNEW that Langley people would go nuts if moved, but they assumed they could push around other people, those who are in Stu's district. They knew there would be some anger, there always is with redistricting. They did not expect the extent of the anger, the use of the internet to get the real facts, lawsuit and all the other push back and protests that they got.

It's hard to see anyone ending up a winner in this redistricting. It's been a nightmare, from the beginning to end.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Langley never has to go through this because
> Janie protects her Langley community. She's a
> great rep for them and would never let them go
> through redistricting. Wouldn't it be nice if
> everyone had that kind of representation on the
> school board?
>
> In addition to having Janie for a rep on the
> board, other board members know that Langley
> district is filled with lawyers and money and they
> know how to use both. What the SB didn't know is
> that Floris, Fox Mill, and Navy districts also
> have smart people, money and lawyers. The SB did
> not anticipate the reactions that they got from
> these communities. The SB KNEW that Langley
> people would go nuts if moved, but they assumed
> they could push around other people, those who are
> in Stu's district. They knew there would be some
> anger, there always is with redistricting. They
> did not expect the extent of the anger, the use of
> the internet to get the real facts, lawsuit and
> all the other push back and protests that they
> got.
>
> It's hard to see anyone ending up a winner in this
> redistricting. It's been a nightmare, from the
> beginning to end.



Neen, I agrree with you on all points except one: FM and FL are not "moneyed" communities. These are very middle class neighborhoods. While I understand there were a couple of substantial donations, most of the money came from small donations that were a a hit for the people who made them. No matter what happens, this is a great David and Goliath story.

According to FCPS, potential elementary schools that could be included in this study are Floris, Oak Hill, Fox Mill, McNair, Herndon and Hutchison.

I have been studying the map, and cannot figure out how they'll do this sensibly. Which can only mean they'll do it nonsensically.

I am guessing they'll shift some kids from Hutchison to Coppermine, some from Herndon to Hutchison. They'll also shift some kids from McNair to Coppermine. The question is who fills in for the vacancies in McNair. My guess is they'll move the McNair eastern boundary further to the east,

I imagine one option will be to close Floris...the northwestern part of Floris could go to Coppermine (and/or McNair), the southern part to whatever is down there (Oak Hill?).

Then, they'll shift the eastern part of Floris now in SL to Fox Mill or Dogwood, and get rid of the GT centers in HunterWood and/or Oak Hill, moving some kids from neighboring schools into those schools.

They'll also shift the new SL kids from Carson to Hughes, letting Coppermine feed Carson in place of the kids moved out.

All along, folks have questioned the financial/logistical need for Coppermine. Coppermine is as dumb as the new SOCO school.

Any reasonable scenarios there?

what is going on Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to FCPS, potential elementary schools
> that could be included in this study are Floris,
> Oak Hill, Fox Mill, McNair, Herndon and Hutchison.
>
>
> I have been studying the map, and cannot figure
> out how they'll do this sensibly. Which can only
> mean they'll do it nonsensically.
>
> I am guessing they'll shift some kids from
> Hutchison to Coppermine, some from Herndon to
> Hutchison. They'll also shift some kids from
> McNair to Coppermine. The question is who fills
> in for the vacancies in McNair. My guess is
> they'll move the McNair eastern boundary further
> to the east,
>
> I imagine one option will be to close Floris...the
> northwestern part of Floris could go to Coppermine
> (and/or McNair), the southern part to whatever is
> down there (Oak Hill?).
>
> Then, they'll shift the eastern part of Floris now
> in SL to Fox Mill or Dogwood, and get rid of the
> GT centers in HunterWood and/or Oak Hill, moving
> some kids from neighboring schools into those
> schools.
>
> They'll also shift the new SL kids from Carson to
> Hughes, letting Coppermine feed Carson in place of
> the kids moved out.
>
> All along, folks have questioned the
> financial/logistical need for Coppermine.
> Coppermine is as dumb as the new SOCO school.
>
> Any reasonable scenarios there?


Well, hmmm, why would they close Floris? If this is the plan, then just send all of the Floris kids to Coppermine. That makes it easy. Don't think that is the plan though. They will do another swirl. Move some McNair kids to Coppermine, and move most of the McNair others to Floris. They will send some Floris kids to Coppermine (maybe the Floris walkers would be the Stulogical choice). But the rest of Floris will go to Oak Hill, some will go to McNair, completing the swirl. Or maybe the swirl will be larger and make a sweep through Fox Mill, sending some of those kids to McNair or even Dogwood. This would make room for some Hutchison kids to go to Fox Mill. The Hutchison shift will be thrown in just for some added drama.

Or it could go like this:
McNair north of the Troll Road returns to Hutchison.
McNair west of Centerville Road goes to Coppermine.
Floris north of West Ox and west of Centerville Road goes to Coppermine.
Floris north of West Ox and east of Centerville Road goes to McNair.

what is going on Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to FCPS, potential elementary schools
> that could be included in this study are Floris,
> Oak Hill, Fox Mill, McNair, Herndon and Hutchison.
>
>
> I have been studying the map, and cannot figure
> out how they'll do this sensibly. Which can only
> mean they'll do it nonsensically.
>
> I am guessing they'll shift some kids from
> Hutchison to Coppermine, some from Herndon to
> Hutchison. They'll also shift some kids from
> McNair to Coppermine. The question is who fills
> in for the vacancies in McNair. My guess is
> they'll move the McNair eastern boundary further
> to the east,
>
> I imagine one option will be to close Floris...the
> northwestern part of Floris could go to Coppermine
> (and/or McNair), the southern part to whatever is
> down there (Oak Hill?).
>
> Then, they'll shift the eastern part of Floris now
> in SL to Fox Mill or Dogwood, and get rid of the
> GT centers in HunterWood and/or Oak Hill, moving
> some kids from neighboring schools into those
> schools.
>
> They'll also shift the new SL kids from Carson to
> Hughes, letting Coppermine feed Carson in place of
> the kids moved out.
>
> All along, folks have questioned the
> financial/logistical need for Coppermine.
> Coppermine is as dumb as the new SOCO school.
>
> Any reasonable scenarios there?


A map won't help you. Stu wanted his school that isn't needed (due to misprojections and NCLB) and isn't wanted. He needs to find kids to fill it to justify it even thought the surrounding schools can handle the kids without Coppermine. McNair is Title 1 failing AYP 2 years with 300 kids placing out. A new school will force them back in to Coppermine for at least 3 years. Hutchison is Title 1 failing AYP one year. One more and people can leave at will.

FCPS and Stu can't afford to have 3 contiguous boundaried schools be Title 1 failing AYP. How do you keep that from happening except social engineering?

Assuming FCPS wins the lawsuit, its not hard to see the writing on the wall especially with the maniacal king of social engineering driving the train.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or it could go like this:
> McNair north of the Troll Road returns to
> Hutchison.
> McNair west of Centerville Road goes to
> Coppermine.
> Floris north of West Ox and west of Centerville
> Road goes to Coppermine.
> Floris north of West Ox and east of Centerville
> Road goes to McNair.



HA HA the "Troll Road" one of my personal favorites. Your scenario is too neat for this county and doesn't solve all of the AYP problems at McNair, Hutchison and predictably at Coppermine. They will have to send a choice group of somebodies, maybe trolls, to Hutchison. Or the Hutchisons at McNair, will have to be mixed in with some smart kids from Floris. I think your scenario leaves McNair and Floris pretty desolate, so maybe they can shift some of the Navy kids down the parkway to even things out.

UnSpam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think your scenario leaves McNair and Floris pretty desolate,
> so maybe they can shift some of the Navy kids down
> the parkway to even things out.

Could be; or they could shift some Fox Mill students westward to Floris, and some Dogwood south to Fox Mill. That could keep Floris populated enough, and McNair won't be that bad off. It'll get closer to making AYP once the students north of the Troll Road return to Hutchison.

Seems like they will want to get SL pyramid kids into Hughes for the IB middle years program...if you work backward from there, you have Fox Mill and eastern Floris mixing it up with Dogwood somehow to get all the SL draftees into Hughes. That leaves the remaining switches between Hutchison, McNair, Floris and Oak Hill. Are there enough kids in those areas (absent the SL kids of Floris) to populate 4 elementary schools? I hear McNair is over-crowded, but am not sure. Is Hutchison or Herndon overcrowded?


Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UnSpam Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think your scenario leaves McNair and Floris
> pretty desolate,
> > so maybe they can shift some of the Navy kids
> down
> > the parkway to even things out.
>
> Could be; or they could shift some Fox Mill
> students westward to Floris, and some Dogwood
> south to Fox Mill. That could keep Floris
> populated enough, and McNair won't be that bad
> off. It'll get closer to making AYP once the
> students north of the Troll Road return to
> Hutchison.

Truthteller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
With the number of new units to be built west of Centreville Road, there would be over 900 students in McNair if Coopermine were not open. It is nothing like SoCo, where there is plenty of excess capacity in surrounding high schools and middle schools.

Moving the McNair kids who live north of the Toll Road to either Herndon or Hutchinson makes sense though they will probably drag test numbers down as many are both ESL and FRM.

Don't know why any other schools would need to be involved, since, if every kid west of Centreville Road goes to Coopermine, it will be full and McNair would be below capacity with room for the dwelling units yet to be built between Monroe and Centreville Road.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, Langley never has to go through this
> because
> > Janie protects her Langley community. She's a
> > great rep for them and would never let them go
> > through redistricting. Wouldn't it be nice if
> > everyone had that kind of representation on the
> > school board?
> >
> > In addition to having Janie for a rep on the
> > board, other board members know that Langley
> > district is filled with lawyers and money and
> they
> > know how to use both. What the SB didn't know
> is
> > that Floris, Fox Mill, and Navy districts also
> > have smart people, money and lawyers. The SB
> did
> > not anticipate the reactions that they got from
> > these communities. The SB KNEW that Langley
> > people would go nuts if moved, but they assumed
> > they could push around other people, those who
> are
> > in Stu's district. They knew there would be
> some
> > anger, there always is with redistricting.
> They
> > did not expect the extent of the anger, the use
> of
> > the internet to get the real facts, lawsuit and
> > all the other push back and protests that they
> > got.
> >
> > It's hard to see anyone ending up a winner in
> this
> > redistricting. It's been a nightmare, from the
> > beginning to end.
>
>
>
> Neen, I agrree with you on all points except one:
> FM and FL are not "moneyed" communities. These
> are very middle class neighborhoods. While I
> understand there were a couple of substantial
> donations, most of the money came from small
> donations that were a a hit for the people who
> made them. No matter what happens, this is a
> great David and Goliath story.

I NEVER meant to imply that Floris and Fox Mill were moneyed communities. I am sorry if my posts came across that way. In fact, not being rich communities, the school board thought they would be easier to push around.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truthteller Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> With the number of new units to be built west of
> Centreville Road, there would be over 900 students
> in McNair if Coopermine were not open. It is
> nothing like SoCo, where there is plenty of excess
> capacity in surrounding high schools and middle
> schools.
>
> Moving the McNair kids who live north of the Toll
> Road to either Herndon or Hutchinson makes sense
> though they will probably drag test numbers down
> as many are both ESL and FRM.
>
> Don't know why any other schools would need to be
> involved, since, if every kid west of Centreville
> Road goes to Coopermine, it will be full and
> McNair would be below capacity with room for the
> dwelling units yet to be built between Monroe and
> Centreville Road.

When are these new units to be built? It doesn't make sense to build a school that is not currently needed, but 'might' be needed in the future IF those units are built and IF they are occupied by families with children.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When are these new units to be built? It doesn't make sense to build a school that is not currently needed, but 'might' be needed in the future IF those units are built and IF they are occupied by families with children.

The zoning has been approved and site plans are in process. In some instances, the buildings are already under construction.

Get your backside behind a wheel and drive around the area and then check out the the zoning and site plan approvals already issued.

McNair is excessively overcrowded now. Coopermine should have been built a year or two ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2008 01:06AM by Thomas More.

I spend all my spare time driving around Loudoun county. McNair is not on my way or on my list of Sunday drives so I'll have to take your word for it.

trouble coming Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems like they will want to get SL pyramid kids
> into Hughes for the IB middle years program...if
> you work backward from there, you have Fox Mill
> and eastern Floris mixing it up with Dogwood
> somehow to get all the SL draftees into Hughes.
> That leaves the remaining switches between
> Hutchison, McNair, Floris and Oak Hill. Are there
> enough kids in those areas (absent the SL kids of
> Floris) to populate 4 elementary schools? I hear
> McNair is over-crowded, but am not sure. Is
> Hutchison or Herndon overcrowded?


McNair is considered overcrowded. Even with some pupil placing out, and having built modulars three years ago, we're approaching 1000 students. Coppermine should allow us to cut class sizes.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> trouble coming Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Seems like they will want to get SL pyramid
> kids
> > into Hughes for the IB middle years
> program...if
> > you work backward from there, you have Fox Mill
> > and eastern Floris mixing it up with Dogwood
> > somehow to get all the SL draftees into Hughes.
>
> > That leaves the remaining switches between
> > Hutchison, McNair, Floris and Oak Hill. Are
> there
> > enough kids in those areas (absent the SL kids
> of
> > Floris) to populate 4 elementary schools? I
> hear
> > McNair is over-crowded, but am not sure. Is
> > Hutchison or Herndon overcrowded?
>
>
> McNair is considered overcrowded. Even with some
> pupil placing out, and having built modulars three
> years ago, we're approaching 1000 students.
> Coppermine should allow us to cut class sizes.


Hutchison could handle the excess now. If it fails AYP this year more people will leave that school as well. Herndon, South Lakes and Westfield pyramids each have the most net empty elementary school seats in the County so lets spend another $22 million of taxpayer money to build more with Coppermine.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truthteller Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> With the number of new units to be built west of
> Centreville Road, there would be over 900 students
> in McNair if Coopermine were not open. It is
> nothing like SoCo, where there is plenty of excess
> capacity in surrounding high schools and middle
> schools.
>
> Moving the McNair kids who live north of the Toll
> Road to either Herndon or Hutchinson makes sense
> though they will probably drag test numbers down
> as many are both ESL and FRM.
>
> Don't know why any other schools would need to be
> involved, since, if every kid west of Centreville
> Road goes to Coopermine, it will be full and
> McNair would be below capacity with room for the
> dwelling units yet to be built between Monroe and
> Centreville Road.

I believe Oak Hill is overcrowded. Another factor is growth in the number of students from migration from Prince William and Loudoun to Herndon.

We fully support the FCPS decision to redistrict and you can join us at -

ttp://www.fairfaxfederation.org/

Better Fairfax Federation website link - http://www.fairfaxfederation.org/

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Truthteller Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > With the number of new units to be built west
> of
> > Centreville Road, there would be over 900
> students
> > in McNair if Coopermine were not open. It is
> > nothing like SoCo, where there is plenty of
> excess
> > capacity in surrounding high schools and middle
> > schools.
> >
> > Moving the McNair kids who live north of the
> Toll
> > Road to either Herndon or Hutchinson makes
> sense
> > though they will probably drag test numbers
> down
> > as many are both ESL and FRM.
> >
> > Don't know why any other schools would need to
> be
> > involved, since, if every kid west of
> Centreville
> > Road goes to Coopermine, it will be full and
> > McNair would be below capacity with room for
> the
> > dwelling units yet to be built between Monroe
> and
> > Centreville Road.
>
> I believe Oak Hill is overcrowded. Another factor
> is growth in the number of students from migration
> from Prince William and Loudoun to Herndon.


Yes, it is overcrowded by 126 kids
http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/cip.htm

Still can be solved without a new school.

I also didn't write what Thomas More quoted. Those are his words

Where is the evidence that the federation supports the RD? And how was this support generated...federation meetings/hearings and then a vote by officers or members. who is the federation POC for this issue? i do not think your post is sincere.

And, isnt it kinda late to chime in...the RD is done...all that is at issue is a legal challenge for which support or opposition is irrelevant.

Thanks for throwing a rock into the pond...not a big ripple though.

p.s. I thought the federation fought the Borg to avoid assimilation. Is this the episode where Picard becomes assimilated? If so, remember he breaks free. Assimilation through illegal RD will be resisted. Resistance is not futile.



The Fairfax Federation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We fully support the FCPS decision to redistrict
> and you can join us at -
>
> ttp://www.fairfaxfederation.org/

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truthteller Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Moving the McNair kids who live north of the Toll
> Road to either Herndon or Hutchinson makes sense
> though they will probably drag test numbers down
> as many are both ESL and FRM.
>
> Don't know why any other schools would need to be
> involved, since, if every kid west of Centreville
> Road goes to Coopermine, it will be full and
> McNair would be below capacity with room for the
> dwelling units yet to be built between Monroe and
> Centreville Road.

The other schools are involved so they can pull high test perfomers into the mix to help fix their AYP problems. That is obviously the only reason.

Exactly. Use Coppermine as an excuse to move high peformance kids to McNair. It's SB's only way to make McNair not fail AYP again.

What else can SB do?


Sammie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Truthteller Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > Moving the McNair kids who live north of the
> Toll
> > Road to either Herndon or Hutchinson makes
> sense
> > though they will probably drag test numbers
> down
> > as many are both ESL and FRM.
> >
> > Don't know why any other schools would need to
> be
> > involved, since, if every kid west of
> Centreville
> > Road goes to Coopermine, it will be full and
> > McNair would be below capacity with room for
> the
> > dwelling units yet to be built between Monroe
> and
> > Centreville Road.
>
> The other schools are involved so they can pull
> high test perfomers into the mix to help fix their
> AYP problems. That is obviously the only reason.

EastFloris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly. Use Coppermine as an excuse to move high
> peformance kids to McNair. It's SB's only way to
> make McNair not fail AYP again.


Not necessarily so. Once the McNair students north of the Troll Road return to Hutchison, McNair should be quickly on the route to passing AYP's again.

They can (and will) send east Floris to Hughes


EastFloris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly. Use Coppermine as an excuse to move high
> peformance kids to McNair. It's SB's only way to
> make McNair not fail AYP again.
>
> What else can SB do?
>
>
> Sammie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas More Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Truthteller Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > Moving the McNair kids who live north of the
> > Toll
> > > Road to either Herndon or Hutchinson makes
> > sense
> > > though they will probably drag test numbers
> > down
> > > as many are both ESL and FRM.
> > >
> > > Don't know why any other schools would need
> to
> > be
> > > involved, since, if every kid west of
> > Centreville
> > > Road goes to Coopermine, it will be full and
> > > McNair would be below capacity with room for
> > the
> > > dwelling units yet to be built between Monroe
> > and
> > > Centreville Road.
> >
> > The other schools are involved so they can pull
> > high test perfomers into the mix to help fix
> their
> > AYP problems. That is obviously the only
> reason.

McNair students north of the toll road will return to an elementary school in the Herndon pyramid, most likely Hutchison, since it has available capacity. They already go to Herndon middle and Herndon high school. Some Oakhill students will shift to Floris and some Floris students will shift to Coppermine. The rest of Coppermine will be made up of new students from the amazing number of new developments in progress between 28 and Centerville road, the Toll Road and Frying Pan Road.

The people going back to Herndon schools will not be much involved in the process and Hutchison parents will not object to them returning. They are not a group culturally that will do anything but be glad to have a school to attend. The Oak Hill parents will complain about having to shift to Floris but since their school is overcrowded it is a logical shift. FCPS could instead move the GT center to Floris and leave the base school at Oak Hill alone. Floris parents that have to move to Coppermine will be upset because it is yet another movement of the Floris community. That is a drawback of living in such a high development area.

planner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair students north of the toll road will return
> to an elementary school in the Herndon pyramid,
> most likely Hutchison, since it has available
> capacity. They already go to Herndon middle and
> Herndon high school. Some Oakhill students will
> shift to Floris and some Floris students will
> shift to Coppermine. The rest of Coppermine will
> be made up of new students from the amazing number
> of new developments in progress between 28 and
> Centerville road, the Toll Road and Frying Pan
> Road.
>
> The people going back to Herndon schools will not
> be much involved in the process and Hutchison
> parents will not object to them returning. They
> are not a group culturally that will do anything
> but be glad to have a school to attend. The Oak
> Hill parents will complain about having to shift
> to Floris but since their school is overcrowded it
> is a logical shift. FCPS could instead move the
> GT center to Floris and leave the base school at
> Oak Hill alone. Floris parents that have to move
> to Coppermine will be upset because it is yet
> another movement of the Floris community. That is
> a drawback of living in such a high development
> area.

Don't see GT going to Floris. FCPS precedent is to put it in the "neediest" school...

Berdhuis Wrote:
> McNair is considered overcrowded. Even with some
> pupil placing out, and having built modulars three
> years ago, we're approaching 1000 students.
> Coppermine should allow us to cut class sizes.

-----------
McNair should be able to get rid of its trailers, but when students are shifted so are the teaching positions. Class size remains the same.

Thoughtful response...what do you think of the potential move of Fox Mill and east Floris to Hughes for the middleyear programs?


planner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair students north of the toll road will return
> to an elementary school in the Herndon pyramid,
> most likely Hutchison, since it has available
> capacity. They already go to Herndon middle and
> Herndon high school. Some Oakhill students will
> shift to Floris and some Floris students will
> shift to Coppermine. The rest of Coppermine will
> be made up of new students from the amazing number
> of new developments in progress between 28 and
> Centerville road, the Toll Road and Frying Pan
> Road.
>
> The people going back to Herndon schools will not
> be much involved in the process and Hutchison
> parents will not object to them returning. They
> are not a group culturally that will do anything
> but be glad to have a school to attend. The Oak
> Hill parents will complain about having to shift
> to Floris but since their school is overcrowded it
> is a logical shift. FCPS could instead move the
> GT center to Floris and leave the base school at
> Oak Hill alone. Floris parents that have to move
> to Coppermine will be upset because it is yet
> another movement of the Floris community. That is
> a drawback of living in such a high development
> area.

But it doesn't make sense for Floris kids to travel through McNair to Coppermine, unless they plan to move the Floris west of Centreville to Coppermine, which doesn't make any sense either.


planner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair students north of the toll road will return
> to an elementary school in the Herndon pyramid,
> most likely Hutchison, since it has available
> capacity. They already go to Herndon middle and
> Herndon high school. Some Oakhill students will
> shift to Floris and some Floris students will
> shift to Coppermine. The rest of Coppermine will
> be made up of new students from the amazing number
> of new developments in progress between 28 and
> Centerville road, the Toll Road and Frying Pan
> Road.
>
> The people going back to Herndon schools will not
> be much involved in the process and Hutchison
> parents will not object to them returning. They
> are not a group culturally that will do anything
> but be glad to have a school to attend. The Oak
> Hill parents will complain about having to shift
> to Floris but since their school is overcrowded it
> is a logical shift. FCPS could instead move the
> GT center to Floris and leave the base school at
> Oak Hill alone. Floris parents that have to move
> to Coppermine will be upset because it is yet
> another movement of the Floris community. That is
> a drawback of living in such a high development
> area.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2008 02:11PM by Floris.

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> planner Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > McNair students north of the toll road will
> return
> > to an elementary school in the Herndon pyramid,
> > most likely Hutchison, since it has available
> > capacity. They already go to Herndon middle and
> > Herndon high school. Some Oakhill students
> will
> > shift to Floris and some Floris students will
> > shift to Coppermine. The rest of Coppermine
> will
> > be made up of new students from the amazing
> number
> > of new developments in progress between 28 and
> > Centerville road, the Toll Road and Frying Pan
> > Road.
> >
> > The people going back to Herndon schools will
> not
> > be much involved in the process and Hutchison
> > parents will not object to them returning. They
> > are not a group culturally that will do
> anything
> > but be glad to have a school to attend. The Oak
> > Hill parents will complain about having to
> shift
> > to Floris but since their school is overcrowded
> it
> > is a logical shift. FCPS could instead move
> the
> > GT center to Floris and leave the base school
> at
> > Oak Hill alone. Floris parents that have to
> move
> > to Coppermine will be upset because it is yet
> > another movement of the Floris community. That
> is
> > a drawback of living in such a high development
> > area.
>
> Don't see GT going to Floris. FCPS precedent is
> to put it in the "neediest" school...


Floris is already a GT center. I heard a couple of years ago that the garden apartments--given the economy and if they get built-- take precedent to go to Floris. My feeling is that the boundary lines will be West Ox Road (again)...so that people who were redistricted will be so again. As far as Hughes MS, I do think that redistric students will be going there too. It is a shame but that's the nature of FCPS SB.

bitingthedust Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anonymous Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > planner Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > McNair students north of the toll road will
> > return
> > > to an elementary school in the Herndon
> pyramid,
> > > most likely Hutchison, since it has available
> > > capacity. They already go to Herndon middle
> and
> > > Herndon high school. Some Oakhill students
> > will
> > > shift to Floris and some Floris students will
> > > shift to Coppermine. The rest of Coppermine
> > will
> > > be made up of new students from the amazing
> > number
> > > of new developments in progress between 28
> and
> > > Centerville road, the Toll Road and Frying
> Pan
> > > Road.
> > >
> > > The people going back to Herndon schools will
> > not
> > > be much involved in the process and Hutchison
> > > parents will not object to them returning.
> They
> > > are not a group culturally that will do
> > anything
> > > but be glad to have a school to attend. The
> Oak
> > > Hill parents will complain about having to
> > shift
> > > to Floris but since their school is
> overcrowded
> > it
> > > is a logical shift. FCPS could instead move
> > the
> > > GT center to Floris and leave the base school
> > at
> > > Oak Hill alone. Floris parents that have to
> > move
> > > to Coppermine will be upset because it is yet
> > > another movement of the Floris community.
> That
> > is
> > > a drawback of living in such a high
> development
> > > area.
> >
> > Don't see GT going to Floris. FCPS precedent
> is
> > to put it in the "neediest" school...
>
>
> Floris is already a GT center. I heard a couple
> of years ago that the garden apartments--given the
> economy and if they get built-- take precedent to
> go to Floris. My feeling is that the boundary
> lines will be West Ox Road (again)...so that
> people who were redistricted will be so again. As
> far as Hughes MS, I do think that redistric
> students will be going there too. It is a shame
> but that's the nature of FCPS SB.



Oh well, then Carson and Hughes will become just mediocre schools. A good thing for Hughes but bad for Carson.

bitingthedust Wrote:

...
>
>
> Floris is already a GT center.

No it doesn't.

Floris has self-contained Level IV classes, one per grade. Started 3 years ago. Floris Level IV kids currently have two options, stay at Floris in the local Level IV class or go to the GTC at Oak Hill.

Looks like Annandale/Falls Church/Stuart High Schools may be next. The pdf file for the school board's July 14th work session on the Coppermine ES boundary study scope ends with this note:

Staff is also reviewing possible administrative changes to other areas of the County to better achieve transportation efficiencies and membership balance. For administrative changes, the total number of students impacted must be no greater that 5% of the total enrollment for either the sending or receiving school. Presently, staff is looking at the potential to administratively move rising 9th grade students from Annandale High School, which is significantly over-enrolled to both Stuart and Fall Church High Schools, both of which are under-enrolled. However, staff envisions that this proposal, as well as others, would not be presented until early spring 2009, when staff hopes that a revised boundary change calendar could begin to be implemented.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d62d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/dc26454812c084c38725744000582e41/$FILE/2008ScopeofStudy.pdf

22180 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like Annandale/Falls Church/Stuart High
> Schools may be next. The pdf file for the school
> board's July 14th work session on the Coppermine
> ES boundary study scope ends with this note:
>
> Staff is also reviewing possible administrative
> changes to other areas of the County to better
> achieve transportation efficiencies and membership
> balance. For administrative changes, the total
> number of students impacted must be no greater
> that 5% of the total enrollment for either the
> sending or receiving school. Presently, staff is
> looking at the potential to administratively move
> rising 9th grade students from Annandale High
> School, which is significantly over-enrolled to
> both Stuart and Fall Church High Schools, both of
> which are under-enrolled. However, staff
> envisions that this proposal, as well as others,
> would not be presented until early spring 2009,
> when staff hopes that a revised boundary change
> calendar could begin to be implemented.
>
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d6
> 2d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/dc26454812c084c3872
> 5744000582e41/$FILE/2008ScopeofStudy.pdf


Just clicked on the link and it confirmed what I suspected....Middle Schools will be realigned if needed (MEANING YES), so the Floris population that was redistricted will be restricted AGAIN! It is NOT just for the Coppermine study, but staff is projecting on fluff.... Whatever was approved for multi-apartments, given the economy, won't happen anytime soon....so I don't see or justify what's the rush to open the new school, but only to level off McNair report card....just like South Lakes...so lame!

reading staffs report they are opening Coppermine with over 200 empty seats in the 5 schools already. Projected is only 245 students over in 2012.

Stu pulled a fast one on the County taxpayer and the dupes he will get redistricted in this round of his social experiment

He should be recalled....oh wait

I might add how humorous the speculation is as to whether a "national" law firm would like this school board as a client. The answer is of course they do. The board is always a promising candidate for big - read expensive - litigation - and while by and large public sector clients are challenging the issues they present are hardly unknown to a firm such as Hunton and Williams. Moreover, clients like this do not present the conflict challenges that some big corporate clients do - and the conflict challenges are only getting worse with the consolidation of various industries. The point here is that there have been a number of both elliptical and somewhat inaccurate speculations by those unfamiliar with the economics of legal practice.

Which brings me to my main point - as one who has been involved in and paid for lots of complex litigation - I have heard nothing from Thomas More - notwithstanding Moore-ologist's less than artful attempts to bait - that does not make sense from a legal point of view. (He doesn't need me to concur with him but with a certain level of sophistication and experience one can clearly discern when when one knows his stuff). Moreover, when I look at litigation - a process I admittedly rarely support because of the costs and difficultly in obtaining timely or satisfactory results - I ask myself given the entire fabric of the law why would a judge rule in a party's favor? And while predicting litigation is largely a foolish enterprise - too much can happen - think for a moment about what could happen if a judge read the Dillon rule expansively to thereafter cause or invite review of any number of local routine government decisions that heretofore might have been seen as unreviewable, i.e., local governments have to have the right to make business decisions? Remember, the prevailing optics when suing any government is that the doors in which to pass through sovereign immunity are reasonably narrow - governments make them that way. It is a very tough proposition for any judge - and accordingly I really do think his decision is going to be based on the quality of the pleadings - especially at a summary judgment stage. I could be wrong - predicting litigation, as I say, is a foolish enterprise - and maybe this is the case to begin to run amok with Dillon's rule - but heck, it seems like a mighty big bite to ask a judge to chew on - especially given that the legal standard - that of efficiency - is an undefined term so susceptible to any number of rationales. We shall see.

so now the board is concerned about transportation issues? They can save a boatload of money and let the Navy kids go back to Chantilly where they belong. I am sure the b%^&* Kathy Smith would rather swallow crap than admit her mistake in voting for RD of Navy community.

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reading staffs report they are opening Coppermine
> with over 200 empty seats in the 5 schools
> already. Projected is only 245 students over in
> 2012.
>
> Stu pulled a fast one on the County taxpayer and
> the dupes he will get redistricted in this round
> of his social experiment
>
> He should be recalled....oh wait

Which five elementary schools abutting Coppermine have space that totals 200 empty seats?

McNair 0 empty seats
Herndon (not really abutting) 0 empty seats
Hutchison __ empty seats
Floris ___empty seats
What is the fifth abutting school?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I might add how humorous the speculation is as to
> whether a "national" law firm would like this
> school board as a client. The answer is of course
> they do. The board is always a promising
> candidate for big - read expensive - litigation -
> and while by and large public sector clients are
> challenging the issues they present are hardly
> unknown to a firm such as Hunton and Williams.
> Moreover, clients like this do not present the
> conflict challenges that some big corporate
> clients do - and the conflict challenges are only
> getting worse with the consolidation of various
> industries. The point here is that there have
> been a number of both elliptical and somewhat
> inaccurate speculations by those unfamiliar with
> the economics of legal practice.
>
> Which brings me to my main point - as one who has
> been involved in and paid for lots of complex
> litigation - I have heard nothing from Thomas More
> - notwithstanding Moore-ologist's less than artful
> attempts to bait - that does not make sense from a
> legal point of view. (He doesn't need me to concur
> with him but with a certain level of
> sophistication and experience one can clearly
> discern when when one knows his stuff). Moreover,
> when I look at litigation - a process I admittedly
> rarely support because of the costs and
> difficultly in obtaining timely or satisfactory
> results - I ask myself given the entire fabric of
> the law why would a judge rule in a party's favor?
> And while predicting litigation is largely a
> foolish enterprise - too much can happen - think
> for a moment about what could happen if a judge
> read the Dillon rule expansively to thereafter
> cause or invite review of any number of local
> routine government decisions that heretofore might
> have been seen as unreviewable, i.e., local
> governments have to have the right to make
> business decisions? Remember, the prevailing
> optics when suing any government is that the doors
> in which to pass through sovereign immunity are
> reasonably narrow - governments make them that
> way. It is a very tough proposition for any judge
> - and accordingly I really do think his decision
> is going to be based on the quality of the
> pleadings - especially at a summary judgment
> stage. I could be wrong - predicting litigation,
> as I say, is a foolish enterprise - and maybe this
> is the case to begin to run amok with Dillon's
> rule - but heck, it seems like a mighty big bite
> to ask a judge to chew on - especially given that
> the legal standard - that of efficiency - is an
> undefined term so susceptible to any number of
> rationales. We shall see.

I was one of the posters who questioned whether this lawsuit would be considered a significant matter for a firm like Hunton & Williams. Thomas More made a good argument that such a firm would welcome that type of work - and I accept his judgment with respect to such state-law matters. However, it does beg the question as to why, if this was a high-profile case for H&W, the oral argument would suffer from the lapses described by posters who attended the hearing (who, admittedly, may not have offered neutral assessments of the performance of the two lawyers) - a boring presentation that left the judge barely stiffling his boredom, marred by embarassing problems with an audio/visual presentation. In most high-profile litigations - and in the competitive legal markets with which you and TM profess familiarity - such poor performance is not tolerated - the stakes are simply too high and the rates being charged are too high to excuse such shortcomings - and lead to a firm's rapid replacement as outside counsel.

I also doubt that the concept of "sovereign immunity" is really on point in the CAPS lawsuit. Sovereign immunity is typically invoked to prevent a plaintiff from suing a government body in a tort action - so, for example, a student who is really, really upset about being redistricted to South Lakes can't bring an action against Stuart Gibson or the other School Board members who voted in favor of the redistricting for emotional distress. But the CAPS lawsuit isn't a tort claim - instead, the plaintiffs are arguing that a state body exceeded its lawful authority by adopting a redistricting plan that was based on improper considerations. Both federal and state laws typically permit plaintiffs with standing (which should easily be met here) to seek to overturn decisions by state agencies that are "arbitrary and capricious" or in excess of the agency's legislative authority. The challenge in these types of actions is not that the suit is barred, due to "sovereign immunity," but instead that courts typically are deferential to an agency's interpretation of its own rules, or statutes that an agency is charged with administering. In particular, a court typically might be expected to defer to a School Board's determination as to whether a redistricting plan enhances the "efficiency" of the school system's operations, particularly if - as you note - there is little guidance as to how "efficiency" should be defined for these purposes. On the other hand, if the evidence is overwhelming that the "efficiency" argument was a mere pretext, and the School Board was simply seeking to raise test scores or achieve a particular socio-economic balance at one school, a trial judge might decide to rule in favor of the plaintiffs. This would not necessarily end the matter - there surely would be avenues for both sides to appeal - but it would present the School Board with some thorny practical issues to sort out between now and the beginning of the school year in September.

no

There is no legal definition or cause declared in the CAPS lawsuit, it basically list 13 parents who say "they aggrieved by redistricting." Maybe they should of saved some paper and just hand wrote a note to the judge saying "we don't like it."

You can't even call it a lawsuit, it's more of a list of greviences. That's why the board didn't care who represented them, it's a junk trial.

Lawman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no legal definition or cause declared in
> the CAPS lawsuit, it basically list 13 parents who
> say "they aggrieved by redistricting." Maybe they
> should of saved some paper and just hand wrote a
> note to the judge saying "we don't like it."
>
> You can't even call it a lawsuit, it's more of a
> list of greviences. That's why the board didn't
> care who represented them, it's a junk trial.

To quote a FFU favorite...

You're stupid.

come on....if the school board was so concerned about transportation cost, then why did they omit Langley from the most recent redistricting?

Talk about transportation cost.......staff failed to present those cost. In their posted Frequently Asked Questions, they so cleverly noted there would not be any additional capital cost. I guess they thought the public did not know the difference between captial and operating cost.

I bet through some smoke and mirrors transaction, they will find some reason to stop the double busing of those high school students who were grandfathered to stay at their schools until they graduate. Any takers of that bet?





now? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so now the board is concerned about transportation
> issues? They can save a boatload of money and let
> the Navy kids go back to Chantilly where they
> belong. I am sure the b%^&* Kathy Smith would
> rather swallow crap than admit her mistake in
> voting for RD of Navy community.

Which if any of these schools is IB? Will the poor rising 9th graders of Annandale be forced to suffer with the nonsense of IB?

Corollary, once the targeted areas are identified, we should be able to tell if they will they be able to pupil place back to Annandale, or if another AP school closer.




22180 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like Annandale/Falls Church/Stuart High
> Schools may be next. The pdf file for the school
> board's July 14th work session on the Coppermine
> ES boundary study scope ends with this note:
>
> Staff is also reviewing possible administrative
> changes to other areas of the County to better
> achieve transportation efficiencies and membership
> balance. For administrative changes, the total
> number of students impacted must be no greater
> that 5% of the total enrollment for either the
> sending or receiving school. Presently, staff is
> looking at the potential to administratively move
> rising 9th grade students from Annandale High
> School, which is significantly over-enrolled to
> both Stuart and Fall Church High Schools, both of
> which are under-enrolled. However, staff
> envisions that this proposal, as well as others,
> would not be presented until early spring 2009,
> when staff hopes that a revised boundary change
> calendar could begin to be implemented.
>
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d6
> 2d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/dc26454812c084c3872
> 5744000582e41/$FILE/2008ScopeofStudy.pdf

The Fairfax Federation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We fully support the FCPS decision to redistrict
> and you can join us at -
>
> ttp://www.fairfaxfederation.org/

You simply support ALL redistricting? Why?

Anonymous Wrote:

> Don't see GT going to Floris. FCPS precedent is
> to put it in the "neediest" school...

Currently the move is to put a GT center into every school. They aren't really centers of anything, just a smart class in grades 3 through 6. These classes will have a few truly gifted kids, the rest are chosen by the teachers and principal. I wouldn't expect them to last long because they will be a hassle for the staff. Parents of those children not chosen to be in the smart class will complain. Suddenly FCPS will realize that smart classes are too similar to the hated T word, tracking. That will be their excuse to abolish the smart classes. Then they can do what they want to do, spread smart kids among all the classes to help teach the other kids.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2008 11:25PM by Neen.

22180 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like Annandale/Falls Church/Stuart High
> Schools may be next. The pdf file for the school
> board's July 14th work session on the Coppermine
> ES boundary study scope ends with this note:
>
> Staff is also reviewing possible administrative
> changes to other areas of the County to better
> achieve transportation efficiencies and membership
> balance. For administrative changes, the total
> number of students impacted must be no greater
> that 5% of the total enrollment for either the
> sending or receiving school. Presently, staff is
> looking at the potential to administratively move
> rising 9th grade students from Annandale High
> School, which is significantly over-enrolled to
> both Stuart and Fall Church High Schools, both of
> which are under-enrolled. However, staff
> envisions that this proposal, as well as others,
> would not be presented until early spring 2009,
> when staff hopes that a revised boundary change
> calendar could begin to be implemented.
>
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d6
> 2d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/dc26454812c084c3872
> 5744000582e41/$FILE/2008ScopeofStudy.pdf

Interesting. By moving only 5% each time, the SB need not consult the public. Moving 5% of Annandale students to Falls Church and Stuart shouldn't present a big problems for the school board. If schools such as Falls Church need more students, the SB can grab another 5% the next year, or from another school.

Since when in FCPS, it's the high performance kids' job to fix failed schools?

Shame on SB.


bitingthedust Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 22180 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Looks like Annandale/Falls Church/Stuart High
> > Schools may be next. The pdf file for the
> school
> > board's July 14th work session on the
> Coppermine
> > ES boundary study scope ends with this note:
> >
> > Staff is also reviewing possible administrative
> > changes to other areas of the County to better
> > achieve transportation efficiencies and
> membership
> > balance. For administrative changes, the total
> > number of students impacted must be no greater
> > that 5% of the total enrollment for either the
> > sending or receiving school. Presently, staff
> is
> > looking at the potential to administratively
> move
> > rising 9th grade students from Annandale High
> > School, which is significantly over-enrolled to
> > both Stuart and Fall Church High Schools, both
> of
> > which are under-enrolled. However, staff
> > envisions that this proposal, as well as
> others,
> > would not be presented until early spring 2009,
> > when staff hopes that a revised boundary change
> > calendar could begin to be implemented.
> >
> >
> http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/d6
>
> >
> 2d9cb847ef1cbd87257328006795e4/dc26454812c084c3872
>
> > 5744000582e41/$FILE/2008ScopeofStudy.pdf
>
>
> Just clicked on the link and it confirmed what I
> suspected....Middle Schools will be realigned if
> needed (MEANING YES), so the Floris population
> that was redistricted will be restricted AGAIN! It
> is NOT just for the Coppermine study, but staff is
> projecting on fluff.... Whatever was approved for
> multi-apartments, given the economy, won't happen
> anytime soon....so I don't see or justify what's
> the rush to open the new school, but only to level
> off McNair report card....just like South
> Lakes...so lame!

now? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so now the board is concerned about transportation
> issues?<<<

Not really. They just use transportation as an excuse when they need to.

it is crazy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which if any of these schools is IB? Will the
> poor rising 9th graders of Annandale be forced to
> suffer with the nonsense of IB?
>
> Corollary, once the targeted areas are identified,
> we should be able to tell if they will they be
> able to pupil place back to Annandale, or if
> another AP school closer.
>
>
The potential realignment that has now been identified would reassign some students from Annandale (IB) to Falls Church (AP) and Stuart (IB). Of the three schools, Annandale is over-crowded, Stuart is somewhat under-enrolled and Falls Church is seriously under-enrolled.

It will be interesting to see whether a redistricting involving these schools results in significant pupil placements from Falls Church back to Annandale. There may currently be pupil placements from Annandale to neighboring AP schools; however, to the extent they have a choice, students currently assigned to Annandale seeking AP rather than IB likely seek reassignment to neighboring and higher-ranked Woodson, rather than to Falls Church.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lawman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is no legal definition or cause declared
> in
> > the CAPS lawsuit, it basically list 13 parents
> who
> > say "they aggrieved by redistricting." Maybe
> they
> > should of saved some paper and just hand wrote
> a
> > note to the judge saying "we don't like it."
> >
> > You can't even call it a lawsuit, it's more of
> a
> > list of greviences. That's why the board
> didn't
> > care who represented them, it's a junk trial.
>
> To quote a FFU favorite...
>
> You're stupid.

No! You're stupid!!!!