22180 Wrote:
> Here's a link to last year's map of Fairfax County
> high school boundaries. The vast pinkness at the
> top is Langley's attendance area. Note that the
> map is from the Fairfax County website, not the
> FCPS site. FCPS only posts maps of each
> individual school online, which makes it much
> harder to see the big picture.
>
> Other noteworthy features include the McLean
> archipelago, the Woodson island, and the (former)
> Madison island.
>
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/hand
> outs/pdf07/HighSchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf

---
Another useful contribution. Thank you. You might also want to post the middle and elementary schools.

The map is also shows the location of the high school buildings, which is very useful when discussing high school redistricting.

I had not heard the term "McLean archipelago" but it is appropriate.

Remember how the Madison "island" was not really an island if you look at what is physically there? Woodson has the reverse situation. That "X" between the main part of Woodson and its new "western peninsula" is the intersection of 123 and Braddock. Filling that northeast corner is a rather large school known as George Mason University. If you consider GMU as a "barrier" without grade k-12 students, then Woodson has two islands, both of which house students who attend Oak View, which is right across the street from Robinson.

Also, as was stated during the hearings, the north part of Westfields is an island as Dulles airport bisects the attendance area.



Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 22180 Wrote:
> > Here's a link to last year's map of Fairfax
> County
> > high school boundaries. The vast pinkness at
> the
> > top is Langley's attendance area. Note that
> the
> > map is from the Fairfax County website, not the
> > FCPS site. FCPS only posts maps of each
> > individual school online, which makes it much
> > harder to see the big picture.
> >
> > Other noteworthy features include the McLean
> > archipelago, the Woodson island, and the
> (former)
> > Madison island.
> >
> >
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/hand
>
> > outs/pdf07/HighSchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf
>
> ---
> Another useful contribution. Thank you. You might
> also want to post the middle and elementary
> schools.
>
> The map is also shows the location of the high
> school buildings, which is very useful when
> discussing high school redistricting.
>
> I had not heard the term "McLean archipelago" but
> it is appropriate.
>
> Remember how the Madison "island" was not really
> an island if you look at what is physically there?
> Woodson has the reverse situation. That "X"
> between the main part of Woodson and its new
> "western peninsula" is the intersection of 123 and
> Braddock. Filling that northeast corner is a
> rather large school known as George Mason
> University. If you consider GMU as a "barrier"
> without grade k-12 students, then Woodson has two
> islands, both of which house students who attend
> Oak View, which is right across the street from
> Robinson.

Re - Neen's point re programs for black students. I am certain that FCPS would point to the variety of programs they have and state, with sincerity, that they are designed to help all students. This is consistent with the attitude of most educators in FCPS - thankfully so. So in this sense I can see why people are treating Neen's comments as inflammatory. Most people are trying to do the right thing.

But at some level with public education one never really gets away from the elephant in the room - that of black student performance and the seemingly intractable challenges appurtenant thereto.

And that's the problem - I would prefer that all programs in Fairfax County make no reference to race and treat students only as individuals - but that runs against the grain of a variety of cultural and legal factors, where benefits are parsed out according to pigmentation and national origin. And it is unfortunate, because as sincere as the intent of the programs might be, they also stigmatize and put additional, non-substantive related pressure on kids to perform - which does not in the end help anyone, and especially the group designed to receive that help. They also work to divide communities, unless one group (i.e. whites and asians) feel condescendingly superior, approve of them out of a sense of guilt, and find it convenient to do so rather than make real progress for each kid.

So if we must persist with racial classification - and it appears that will be the case for some time to come, then of course we will want to measure the effectiveness of these programs. And that has been disappointing and likely will continue to be, unless the schools are silent about some marvelous successes to which they have been silent, an event I think highly unlikely.

One final point - there is a perception that some of the these programs are
driven by a racial stereotype that different racial groups require a "different" learning approach. I find this troublesome, because it touches upon the same nutty right brain vs. left brain nonsense that the Jeremiah Wright's of the world espouse. These concepts unfortunately have some currency in the education establishment, although typically expressed less crudely than Rev. Wright. Sure, different students learn in different ways, but at almost any level of academia a degree of rigor is required, and invoking a highly implausible, unscientific stereotype to justify treating an entire racial group differently and justify programming is not only troublesome, it is also absolutely bound to fail. To the extent the school system in its programming is motivated by any of this type of thinking, I think very harsh criticism is valid, and it certainly, if expressed fairly, should not invite any charges of racism.

Here is the link to the elementary school map for the entire county

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/handouts/pdf07/elementarySchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf

Here is the link to the middle school map for the entire county

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/handouts/pdf07/middleSchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf

Here is the previously provided link to the high school map for the entire county

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/handouts/pdf07/highSchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf

Madison Is Not an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bulldog Mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Isn't Langley in the eastern part of the
> county?
>
> Very funny. The school or the attendance zone?
>
> Search the thread if you want an education on that
> topic and the warm feelings it inspires among your
> fellow Bulldogs.
>
> The fact is that, no matter what, Langley would be
> a wealthy school with a very low number of
> minority students, ESOL or FRR students, given its
> location in the northeastern part of the county.
>
>
> However, the attendance district also stretches to
> the Loudoun borders and pulls in wealthy areas
> across the northern part of the county.
>
> A sizeable addition was built to increase its
> capacity and make the school "RD-proof."
>
> Had this approach not been followed, more Langley
> students would be at Herndon, Herndon students
> would be at South Lakes, Thomas More would be
> happy, and your little ones would still be
> Bulldogs one day. But instead...
>
> As Neen likes to remind us, Jane Strauss is a
> great representative.

In the mid 1990's, Herndon students were removed from Herndon and sent to Langley. The supposed reason was over crowding at Herndon. Of course Langley then became over crowded as students traveled from the Loudoun county line to well inside the beltway, an absurd distance.

Maps,
Your links are awesome. Thanks for posting them.

I am debating, which high school has the strangest boundaries? McLean or Langley? And why weren't the Madison students who live west of Hunter Mill considered for placement in South Lakes? That area is closer to South Lakes than to Madison.

Why hasn't the school board moved that Woodson island in the middle of Robinson district? Surely they could fix that with an administrative change.

Quantum,
A couple of problems. First, fcps never gets rid of any program that they have adopted. They add more programs, but they never abolish old ones. The excuse for this is that some school, some principal(oops they call that a community), likes the program and wants to keep it. With "Site based management", principals can do whatever they want and use any program that they choose.

Second, they do not evaluate the effectiveness of programs. For the most part, they cannot define what 'effective' would mean. There are no objective measures of success. Staff says things like 'the program is very popular', 'teachers report it is helping students to feel better and to think more critically', 'parents in the schools with X program really like it'. Or, one of my personal favorites, "the program has no academic goals, but we are very excited about it, and believe it can be very helpful".

Last year we heard often that teachers were very happy and very busy collaborating, cooperating, and coordinating! (They are very excited about C words!)
Now, if only we knew how that translates to helping students learn.

WhyCloseGT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why FCPS wants to close Middle school GT? Is it
> because so many Asian kids in GT? If it's for
> budget reason, then it should close other programs
> for black kids too.
>
Principals don't like GT centers. Staff and school board care very much about what Principals wants, less about students' needs. GT centers are a pain for staff, too many parents complaining and it is almost tracking. Centers show that some kids are actually smarter than others and they work harder in school. That's a no no, not politically correct. Better to just do away with the Centers.

Edna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The word on the street is that Strauss and Gibson
> do not like GT centers. I believe years back
> Strauss was voted down when she objected to a GT
> in her district. Could be a rumor and I don't
> know how to research this rumor.
>
> Question: Is there a move to shut down the GT
> centers? Would save on transportation cost which
> is a big issue.
>
> The downside of this is there are some GT centers
> in low performing schools and if these centers go,
> then will this not affect the SOLs in some of
> these schools? Something that the Fx Cty School
> Bd would not like....especially in Gibson's area.
>
>
> Therefore, I don't see the GT centers being
> removed from some of these schools.
>
> Welcome comments from others.


I would say that the majority of our school board doesn't like GT centers. Centers aren't politically correct, principals don't like them, they generated controversy when they aren't racially balanced, and staff doesn't like them. Those things are much more important to the school board than meeting the needs of students, especially smart, hard working, students. Those students just make the others look bad, and they make the gap in student performance larger. If they put those kids back into base schools it will help the test scores at some of those schools and it won't be so obvious that some students are doing better than others. Abolishing GT centers is a win-win for staff and afterall, that's who the school board works for.

I could not get the site to work. Any suggestions....


Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 22180 Wrote:
> > Here's a link to last year's map of Fairfax
> County
> > high school boundaries. The vast pinkness at
> the
> > top is Langley's attendance area. Note that
> the
> > map is from the Fairfax County website, not the
> > FCPS site. FCPS only posts maps of each
> > individual school online, which makes it much
> > harder to see the big picture.
> >
> > Other noteworthy features include the McLean
> > archipelago, the Woodson island, and the
> (former)
> > Madison island.
> >
> >
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/hand
>
> > outs/pdf07/HighSchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf
>
> ---
> Another useful contribution. Thank you. You might
> also want to post the middle and elementary
> schools.
>
> The map is also shows the location of the high
> school buildings, which is very useful when
> discussing high school redistricting.
>
> I had not heard the term "McLean archipelago" but
> it is appropriate.
>
> Remember how the Madison "island" was not really
> an island if you look at what is physically there?
> Woodson has the reverse situation. That "X"
> between the main part of Woodson and its new
> "western peninsula" is the intersection of 123 and
> Braddock. Filling that northeast corner is a
> rather large school known as George Mason
> University. If you consider GMU as a "barrier"
> without grade k-12 students, then Woodson has two
> islands, both of which house students who attend
> Oak View, which is right across the street from
> Robinson.

I wish what you said was not correct. Unfortunately, it is.


Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Edna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The word on the street is that Strauss and
> Gibson
> > do not like GT centers. I believe years back
> > Strauss was voted down when she objected to a
> GT
> > in her district. Could be a rumor and I don't
> > know how to research this rumor.
> >
> > Question: Is there a move to shut down the GT
> > centers? Would save on transportation cost
> which
> > is a big issue.
> >
> > The downside of this is there are some GT
> centers
> > in low performing schools and if these centers
> go,
> > then will this not affect the SOLs in some of
> > these schools? Something that the Fx Cty
> School
> > Bd would not like....especially in Gibson's
> area.
> >
> >
> > Therefore, I don't see the GT centers being
> > removed from some of these schools.
> >
> > Welcome comments from others.
>
>
> I would say that the majority of our school board
> doesn't like GT centers. Centers aren't
> politically correct, principals don't like them,
> they generated controversy when they aren't
> racially balanced, and staff doesn't like them.
> Those things are much more important to the school
> board than meeting the needs of students,
> especially smart, hard working, students. Those
> students just make the others look bad, and they
> make the gap in student performance larger. If
> they put those kids back into base schools it will
> help the test scores at some of those schools and
> it won't be so obvious that some students are
> doing better than others. Abolishing GT centers
> is a win-win for staff and afterall, that's who
> the school board works for.

Edna - use the links for maps in the message posted by "maps" at 11:10pm on July 15. They all work.

Looking at the maps, my favorite school boundary is Whitman middle school. The school sits outside of its own attendance area!

And one more map for everyone: Here are the supervisor districts, which are the same as the school board members' districts. If you compare the school board members' districts to the high school boundaries, it explains some of the strange boundaries. For example, the Madison area west of Hunter Mill Road doesn't go to South Lakes because they're mostly in the Sully District, not Stu's Hunter Mill District. And the Dranesville District stretches completely across the north part of the county, which is why Langley's attendance area does the same. Any suggestions on how to initiate a boundary study for the school board members' districts?

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/handouts/pdf07/SupervisorDistricts.pdf

22180 Wrote:
> Looking at the maps, my favorite school boundary
> is Whitman middle school. The school sits outside
> of its own attendance area!

Take a look at the Poe boundaries, especially the "wineglass" north of Glasgow (next to Falls Church!) and the Holmes island that separates the Poe sections south of Braddock Road. Another major anomaly in this are is that these middle schools are for grades 6-8 instead of 7 & 8 like the rest of FCPS. Can anyone tell us why sixth graders inside the beltway should be introduced to the middle school environment a year earlier than in other areas?

The proposed Annandale - Falls Church - Stuart redistricting is the perfect opportunity to close Holmes, re-open it as an elementary school, and align the boundaries of the three remaining middle schools with their high schools. (Send western Jackson, the future Oakton students, to Franklin.)
>
> And one more map for everyone: Here are the
> supervisor districts, which are the same as the
> school board members' districts. If you compare
> the school board members' districts to the high
> school boundaries, it explains some of the strange
> boundaries. For example, the Madison area west of
> Hunter Mill Road doesn't go to South Lakes because
> they're mostly in the Sully District, not Stu's
> Hunter Mill District. And the Dranesville
> District stretches completely across the north
> part of the county, which is why Langley's
> attendance area does the same. Any suggestions on
> how to initiate a boundary study for the school
> board members' districts?
>
The same web page that contains the draft proposals for the Annandale - Falls Church - Stuart redistricting (can we call it "AFCS-RD or something?) also contains a link to School Board policy Policy 8130.5. Paragraph VI states in part, "Adjustments shall be made without respect to magisterial districts or postal addresses and, whenever possible, shall not affect the same occupied dwellings any more often than once in three years."

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The proposed Annandale - Falls Church - Stuart
> redistricting is the perfect opportunity to close
> Holmes, re-open it as an elementary school, and
> align the boundaries of the three remaining middle
> schools with their high schools. (Send western
> Jackson, the future Oakton students, to
> Franklin.)
> >
I expect that there was a time when the Jackson attendance area was more completely aligned with Falls Church. Was Jackson redistricted to include some Oakton students because of growth in the western part of the county and a capacity issue at Franklin or because there were performance issues at Jackson? I realize the answers may not be mutually exclusive.

I am curious as to whether parents in the Oakton-Jackson-Oakton pyramid would prefer Oakton-Franklin-Oakton. It looks like having kids at both Oakton and Franklin could be quite a logistical challenge (Oakton appears to be a good bit closer to Jackson than Franklin).

d



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2010 06:49AM by inkahootz.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Edna Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The word on the street is that Strauss and
> Gibson
> > do not like GT centers. I believe years back
> > Strauss was voted down when she objected to a
> GT
> > in her district. Could be a rumor and I don't
> > know how to research this rumor.
> >
> > Question: Is there a move to shut down the GT
> > centers? Would save on transportation cost
> which
> > is a big issue.
> >
> > The downside of this is there are some GT
> centers
> > in low performing schools and if these centers
> go,
> > then will this not affect the SOLs in some of
> > these schools? Something that the Fx Cty
> School
> > Bd would not like....especially in Gibson's
> area.
> >
> >
> > Therefore, I don't see the GT centers being
> > removed from some of these schools.
> >
> > Welcome comments from others.
>
>
> I would say that the majority of our school board
> doesn't like GT centers. Centers aren't
> politically correct, principals don't like them,
> they generated controversy when they aren't
> racially balanced, and staff doesn't like them.
> Those things are much more important to the school
> board than meeting the needs of students,
> especially smart, hard working, students. Those
> students just make the others look bad, and they
> make the gap in student performance larger. If
> they put those kids back into base schools it will
> help the test scores at some of those schools and
> it won't be so obvious that some students are
> doing better than others. Abolishing GT centers
> is a win-win for staff and afterall, that's who
> the school board works for.

Do you just like to read your own posts? You say the same thing over and over and twice in a row here. Couldn't you address both posts with one answer?

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> ...Another major anomaly in this are is that these
> middle schools are for grades 6-8 instead of 7 & 8
> like the rest of FCPS. Can anyone tell us why sixth
> graders inside the beltway should be introduced
> to the middle school environment a year earlier
> than in other areas?
>

The ones inside the beltway doing 6-8 grade middle schools actually got it right.

I don't know why Arlington County lumps sixth graders in with 7th and 8th. At the beginning of the year, they seem so miniscule compared to them, and they literally are intimidated and scared of them. I also think having 9th graders mixed w/ 10-12 can be problematic as well. I wouldn't want my freshman daughter hanging out with or dating some eighteen year old senior. Alexandria even has a separate school for 9th grade (Minnie Howard). I think they should just put the niners in with 7/8th, and send the sixers back to elementary school!



Highschool: 10-12
Middle school: 7-9
Elementary: K-6


SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > ...Another major anomaly in this are is that
> these
> > middle schools are for grades 6-8 instead of 7 &
> 8
> > like the rest of FCPS. Can anyone tell us why
> sixth
> > graders inside the beltway should be introduced
>
> > to the middle school environment a year earlier
>
> > than in other areas?
> >
>
> The ones inside the beltway doing 6-8 grade middle
> schools actually got it right.

Has it occurred to posters here that Langley's attendance area is so vast because the density of housing is sparse compared with most other areas in the County - that means the house lot sizes are bigger, thus less students per acre, for those of you in Eastern Vienna.

Per Neen's comment regarding GT centers not being popular with principals because they show up the 'other' kids, wouldn't the same be true if GT students were attending their base schools? Why can't the reverse be true, that GT kids left in their base schools would be good role models for the 'other' students? Why couldn't it be said that it is better not to remove students achieving the highest level to aspire to completely from their base schools? Couldn't it be said that abolishing GT centers would benefit all students by not making GT kids look like some kind of separate and not equal group, but rather by keeping them as role models?

It occurs to me that the only folks opposed to abolishing GT centers are those parents like Neen whose children benefit the most from them. After all, unlike the rest of the poor stupid saps in the county, their kids are getting a private school education without having to foot the additional bill.

The only reason Minnie Howard exists is because TC Williams was overcrowded and an unused elementary school stood right across the street. The ninth-graders were housed there. Separate ninth-grade center has its positives and negatives. Negatives: Kids are not part of the high school experience, including pep rallies, etc. Positives: Kids are sheltered for an additional year.

inkahootz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know why Arlington County lumps sixth
> graders in with 7th and 8th. At the beginning of
> the year, they seem so miniscule compared to them,
> and they literally are intimidated and scared of
> them. I also think having 9th graders mixed w/
> 10-12 can be problematic as well. I wouldn't want
> my freshman daughter hanging out with or dating
> some eighteen year old senior. Alexandria even has
> a separate school for 9th grade (Minnie Howard). I
> think they should just put the niners in with
> 7/8th, and send the sixers back to elementary
> school!
>
>
>
> Highschool: 10-12
> Middle school: 7-9
> Elementary: K-6
>
>
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Forum Reader Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > ...Another major anomaly in this are is that
> > these
> > > middle schools are for grades 6-8 instead of 7
> &
> > 8
> > > like the rest of FCPS. Can anyone tell us why
> > sixth
> > > graders inside the beltway should be
> introduced
> >
> > > to the middle school environment a year
> earlier
> >
> > > than in other areas?
> > >
> >
> > The ones inside the beltway doing 6-8 grade
> middle
> > schools actually got it right.

with repeat repeat repeat

Some posters have a low self-esteem and feel better about themselves by posting the same stuff over and over, occasionally mentioning their 'GT' or 'TJ' kid, etc. Truth be told, if they were happy, they would be in bed canoodling with their spouse instead of posting in the wee hours of the a.m.

All Will Be Revealed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only reason Minnie Howard exists is because TC
> Williams was overcrowded and an unused elementary
> school stood right across the street. The
> ninth-graders were housed there. Separate
> ninth-grade center has its positives and
> negatives.

Negatives: Kids are not part of the
> high school experience, including pep rallies,
> etc.

etc.? Like getting drunk and hooking up with 18yo men who are still in highschool?


Positives: Kids are sheltered for an additional year.

That was my entire premise!



> inkahootz Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't know why Arlington County lumps sixth
> > graders in with 7th and 8th. At the beginning
> of
> > the year, they seem so miniscule compared to
> them,
> > and they literally are intimidated and scared
> of
> > them. I also think having 9th graders mixed w/
> > 10-12 can be problematic as well. I wouldn't
> want
> > my freshman daughter hanging out with or dating
> > some eighteen year old senior. Alexandria even
> has
> > a separate school for 9th grade (Minnie Howard).
> I
> > think they should just put the niners in with
> > 7/8th, and send the sixers back to elementary
> > school!
> >
> >
> >
> > Highschool: 10-12
> > Middle school: 7-9
> > Elementary: K-6
> >
> >
> > SBS Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Forum Reader Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > >
> > > > ...Another major anomaly in this are is
> that
> > > these
> > > > middle schools are for grades 6-8 instead of
> 7
> > &
> > > 8
> > > > like the rest of FCPS. Can anyone tell us
> why
> > > sixth
> > > > graders inside the beltway should be
> > introduced
> > >
> > > > to the middle school environment a year
> > earlier
> > >
> > > > than in other areas?
> > > >
> > >
> > > The ones inside the beltway doing 6-8 grade
> > middle
> > > schools actually got it right.

To All Will Be Revealed,
A GT student may not necessarily be the role model -- for example, if the GT kid knows inside and out what the classroom is learning as a new subject, he/she may become bored and disruptive to the class. Also it may have a unwanted psycological impact to the rest of class.

I'm not sure about others, but I know for my kid, several things can happen if someone else graps something so fast and so easy in the class: she'll quickly resign with an "I'm not good at the subject" attitude, then join the familiar activities, aka, playing, talking, anything a distraction to the new hard topic she's suppose to digest and learn.

For that matter, I'd rather to see my child learn with kids relatively at the same level, not a genius that appears to know everything effortlessly -- that'll be what other kids see. If they are so good, I don't mind they go a grade or two ahead and be somewhere else.

Lastly, other than buses, I don't see anywhere published in FCPS suggesting GT centers require more resources.

Thanks for the lecture.

How does Allah feel about all the 10 year old girls in Yemen who are beaten and raped by their husbands who are old enough to be their fathers/grandfathers?

Great profile on the barbarism that exists over there on CNN today.

Give us a break. You have bigger problems.

Wake the hell up people-THERE IS NO MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!

Montgomery County doesn't have enough money for gas for their buses and is expanding the walking distance for kids to 2 miles.

Do you honestly think FCPS is any different?

Any GT center that pulls high achievers from lousy schools will be killed. NCLB is calling the shots and the scores are dreadful at some schools-they need these kids to pad the numbers.

We have a 2 year backlog on maintenance requests-2 years-no dineros, folks.

Teachers keep hemanding 3-5 percent wage increases-the budget is flat-and the slaries eat up 85 percent of the budget. Do the math.

They will be asking for toilet paper and light bulb donations before long.

GT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To All Will Be Revealed,
> A GT student may not necessarily be the role model
> -- for example, if the GT kid knows inside and out
> what the classroom is learning as a new subject,
> he/she may become bored and disruptive to the
> class. Also it may have a unwanted psycological
> impact to the rest of class.

I recall long ago when going through FCPS that there was never a class which had just one or two GT students. There seemed to always be at least 5-6, and were routinely tasked out with additional work (discreetly more advanced, I should add) while everyone else worked. No one complained. Some even snickered at the GT students who were given additional work.

Every Wednesday they would stay after school for an additional two hours to do GT stuff.

Any unwanted psychological impact to the other students, due to being in proximity to those who are more academically inspired, is not the responsibility of the school to mitigate - that belongs squarely on the shoulders of their parents. Lazy parents = unsatisfied children.

"I recall long ago when going through FCPS that there was never a class which had just one or two GT students. There seemed to always be at least 5-6, and were routinely tasked out with additional work (discreetly more advanced, I should add) while everyone else worked. No one complained. Some even snickered at the GT students who were given additional work. "

Is that fair for every the classroom teacher to handle this? Why does it cost extra (save the bus) to group the 5-6/class to one special class, so that every teacher can somewhat focus their effort? Isn't that more efficient for both the GT class and regular class?

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GT Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To All Will Be Revealed,
> > A GT student may not necessarily be the role
> model
> > -- for example, if the GT kid knows inside and
> out
> > what the classroom is learning as a new
> subject,
> > he/she may become bored and disruptive to the
> > class. Also it may have a unwanted psycological
> > impact to the rest of class.
>
> I recall long ago when going through FCPS that
> there was never a class which had just one or two
> GT students. There seemed to always be at least
> 5-6, and were routinely tasked out with additional
> work (discreetly more advanced, I should add)
> while everyone else worked. No one complained.
> Some even snickered at the GT students who were
> given additional work.
>
> Every Wednesday they would stay after school for
> an additional two hours to do GT stuff.
>
> Any unwanted psychological impact to the other
> students, due to being in proximity to those who
> are more academically inspired, is not the
> responsibility of the school to mitigate - that
> belongs squarely on the shoulders of their
> parents. Lazy parents = unsatisfied children.



Ha Ha, I remember that. Back in the dinosaur age that is what they did at Kilmer. I remember being closet GT for fear of being made fun of or better yet beaten up on the school bus.

GT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Is that fair for every the classroom teacher to
> handle this? Why does it cost extra (save the bus)
> to group the 5-6/class to one special class, so
> that every teacher can somewhat focus their
> effort? Isn't that more efficient for both the GT
> class and regular class?

The teachers would also sometimes delegate instructing/mentoring the bottom feeders to the GT students, or anyone else who well-understood the material (although typically the GT students). After they finished up with their own work, they would sometimes help out the others who most needed it. Again, no one complained or felt slighted. The teachers seemed fine with this, and knew that they had a cadre of intelligent, responsible and eager young students who cared about their classmates.

elephant in the room Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wake the hell up people-THERE IS NO
> MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Montgomery County doesn't have enough money for
> gas for their buses and is expanding the walking
> distance for kids to 2 miles.
>
> Do you honestly think FCPS is any different?
>
> Any GT center that pulls high achievers from lousy
> schools will be killed. NCLB is calling the shots
> and the scores are dreadful at some schools-they
> need these kids to pad the numbers.
>
> We have a 2 year backlog on maintenance requests-2
> years-no dineros, folks.
>
> Teachers keep hemanding 3-5 percent wage
> increases-the budget is flat-and the slaries eat
> up 85 percent of the budget. Do the math.
>
> They will be asking for toilet paper and light
> bulb donations before long.


Hopefully we can package the light bulbs in the kleenex boxes so they don't break in some poor 1st grader's back pack.

"After they finished up with their own work, they would sometimes help out the others who most needed it."

If a child or a group of child routinely perform this kind of activity (so that they don't harass others), it is taking away this child's opportunity to learn on the subject area. It also takes away a normal child's chance to shine. I think the GT center idea is a win-win for everyone.

And forget about "no one complained" -- I think no one complained the IB program in SL as well... Also, FCPS doesn't hear any concern from parents for Everyday Math or Whole language stuff as well.

You should not respond to these notes...the poster is one of the pimple faced nerds who post most of the other threads about pizza and masturbation. He just posted his Allah stuff, and the towing stuff, to get a reaction. The best way forward is to ignore irrelevant baiting by these unemployed drop-outs.


Allah's opinion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the lecture.
>
> How does Allah feel about all the 10 year old
> girls in Yemen who are beaten and raped by their
> husbands who are old enough to be their
> fathers/grandfathers?
>
> Great profile on the barbarism that exists over
> there on CNN today.
>
> Give us a break. You have bigger problems.

GT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a child or a group of child routinely perform
> this kind of activity (so that they don't harass
> others), it is taking away this child's
> opportunity to learn on the subject area. It also
> takes away a normal child's chance to shine. I
> think the GT center idea is a win-win for
> everyone.


As I don't have the means or desire to argue against supporting GT centers, I won't. However, I do see at least equal worth in having several GT students fully participating in regular classes, being given additional work, attending after-school sessions, and serving as mentors. Definitely I see leadership being nurtured in these students under those conditions, and I find that just as important to develop in younger generations as academics and arts.

I have no problem with some gifted kids helping out the kids who are struggling but sometimes kids are taken advantage of.

I remember a situation at my daughter's elementary school a few years back. A new student from Pakistan or somewhere who didn't speak much english was plopped into a regular 6th grade classroom with no interpreter. There was a kid in the class who happened to speak the same language and he basically served as the translator for this kid for the rest of the year.

I would imagine that that took its toll on the other kid and slowed down dis educational progress as he spent much of his day helping this other kid.

Just an example where the school system transfers the job of instruction from themselves to the students.

GT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "After they finished up with their own work, they
> would sometimes help out the others who most
> needed it."
>
> If a child or a group of child routinely perform
> this kind of activity (so that they don't harass
> others), it is taking away this child's
> opportunity to learn on the subject area. It also
> takes away a normal child's chance to shine. I
> think the GT center idea is a win-win for
> everyone.
>
> And forget about "no one complained" -- I think no
> one complained the IB program in SL as well...
> Also, FCPS doesn't hear any concern from parents
> for Everyday Math or Whole language stuff as well.


The really smart kids or really all those parents that think their little Johnny's or Suzie's are "God's gift" should just go to private school where parent's dollars can give their prodigies all the time and attention they deserve. LEt the normal kids shine without any GTs or "GGs" in the PS system. Normal kids would no longer have to deal with these GT-shroud wearing kids who seem to think they are better than everybody else and think it is ok to treat the rest of their "normal" classmates like shit.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is NO way that Madison students will be sent
> to Marshall. Madison community would have a fit.
> They do not want to leave their AP school, nor do
> they want their property values to decline.
>
Neen is so vocal on this because she is afraid that sending more kids from the Westbriar or Wolftrap area would bring down test scores at Madison. She cares alot about that. She lives in an older part of SW Vienna that will always go to Madison no matter what.

And, her house is going down in value, not up. Sure, part of it is bad housing market everywhere, but being so close to Cedar/Park apartments does not help either. She is fooling herself if she thinks someone will sell a great house in Madison island to buy in her neighborhood. Even if they move back into Madison district they will not buy there because if they have younger kids they will try and make sure they are in Vienna or Louise Archer district.

Neen is a know it all BS artist. If she is for the kids, she should take on the SB and run for a SB position.


Laughing at Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is NO way that Madison students will be
> sent
> > to Marshall. Madison community would have a
> fit.
> > They do not want to leave their AP school, nor
> do
> > they want their property values to decline.
> >
> Neen is so vocal on this because she is afraid
> that sending more kids from the Westbriar or
> Wolftrap area would bring down test scores at
> Madison. She cares alot about that. She lives in
> an older part of SW Vienna that will always go to
> Madison no matter what.
>
> And, her house is going down in value, not up.
> Sure, part of it is bad housing market everywhere,
> but being so close to Cedar/Park apartments does
> not help either. She is fooling herself if she
> thinks someone will sell a great house in Madison
> island to buy in her neighborhood. Even if they
> move back into Madison district they will not buy
> there because if they have younger kids they will
> try and make sure they are in Vienna or Louise
> Archer district.

I don't advocate for getting rid of GT altogether, but I am sick of the ivory tower brain drain from base schools and sick of the entitlement mentally that the parents of some (not all) kids seem to have. I also don't accept the time-honored keening that little Sally is being bullied because she is so smart. Have you ever been to a competition involving TJ students, be it a science fair or sports event?. Those are some fully assertive and competitive kids - no shrinking violets there. In fact, some are downright obnoxious in their desires to win.

I fully advocate providing accelerated coursework for gifted students at their base school. I fully advocate for tracking. Remember that when we had tracking in the past, students were tracked at four or five levels, and kids moved in and out of those levels depending on their ability and grasp of the subject matter each year. I knew lots of kids who tracked up, so don't listen to the progressives who will try to tell you that little Tommy will be scarred if he is relegated to the lower classes in first grade.

I know many kids that were recommended for GT yet opted to remain at their base schools. Guess what? They are doing just as well as their GT counterparts. I would argue that they are much more well-rounded than those kids who strive to enter UVa with 70 credits and graduate in 2 years with 3 degrees and 50% of their masters coursework completed in five subjects. Disclaimer: hyperbole added for effect.

Spot on about a certain aging Vienna neighborhood and the motives of some living there.

"The really smart kids or really all those parents that think their little Johnny's or Suzie's are "God's gift" should just go to private school where parent's dollars can give their prodigies all the time and attention they deserve. LEt the normal kids shine without any GTs or "GGs" in the PS system. Normal kids would no longer have to deal with these GT-shroud wearing kids who seem to think they are better than everybody else and think it is ok to treat the rest of their "normal" classmates like shit."

I see your points: the GT kids should either be kicked out or help their class.

GT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The really smart kids or really all those parents
> that think their little Johnny's or Suzie's are
> "God's gift" should just go to private school
> where parent's dollars can give their prodigies
> all the time and attention they deserve. LEt the
> normal kids shine without any GTs or "GGs" in the
> PS system. Normal kids would no longer have to
> deal with these GT-shroud wearing kids who seem to
> think they are better than everybody else and
> think it is ok to treat the rest of their "normal"
> classmates like shit."
>
> I see your points: the GT kids should either be
> kicked out or help their class.


No Just kicked out. Or how about the GT kids just mix in with everyone else and forget the label. In the end, when they join the rest of us in the real world they become one of us anyway. This is a shocker to a lot of GT kids.

CindyLu Wrote:
> The really smart kids or really all those parents
> that think their little Johnny's or Suzie's are
> "God's gift" should just go to private school
> where parent's dollars can give their prodigies
> all the time and attention they deserve. ...

-------
For whatever reasons, some children learn math and/or languages faster than others do. In most parts of the country, including the Norfolk area of Virginia, GT students even have Individual Education Plans (IEPs), just like other children who have special educational requirements. It is sad but obvious that some posters resent the quick learners; they probably also resent people who are different from them in other ways. (Have you noticed how many posters resent families who have more money than they do?)

Some posters believe in forced, unpaid labor. GT students, like all other students, are sent to school to learn, not to teach other children. If GT students VOLUNTEER to stay after school to tutor others, fine. Otherwise, students who tutor other students should be paid for their work - or better yet, they should spend their time in schools learning advanced/accelerated material (which does NOT mean MORE of the same work they have already mastered).

A teacher deserves a chance to teach students at similar levels to maximize students achievement of her effort. If she has to teach a zillion different levels. Have you realize how much extra material the teacher needs to prepare and keeps track of?

A GT student deserves the same education opportunity as his/her peers.

Calling regular class as shit, or GT students as entitled, privilleged, has nothing to do with GT or the students. It's every bit of what the small group of parents say or think.

"All Will Be Revealed", there's no reason that all the people who live in the north part of the county in neighborhoods with large lot sizes need to be kept together in one vast school attendance area. There are plenty of schools in the west side of the county to accommodate kids from the west half of the Dranesville district, and there are plenty of people in the east side of the county who could backfill Langley once the westerners were gone. The situation officially became ridiculous when it got to the point of ejecting Vienna kids from Kilmer to make more elbow room for the kids bused in from western Dranesville.

On the topic of GT centers, recognize that FCPS is stuck with them at this point unless they do a major redistricting. The current school boundaries rely on the GT centers to take in kids from schools that would otherwise be vastly overcrowded. Cooper MS is a prime example, sending kids to GT centers at both Longfellow and Kilmer. They'd need an addition or a big reduction in their boundary if the GT centers went away.

>>>Re: high school redistricting
>>>Posted by: All Will Be Revealed (IP Logged)
>>>Date: July 16, 2008 12:06PM
>>>
>>>Has it occurred to posters here that Langley's attendance area is so vast because
>>>the density of housing is sparse compared with most other areas in the County -
>>>that means the house lot sizes are bigger, thus less students per acre, for those
>>>of you in Eastern Vienna.

All Will Be Revealed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has it occurred to posters here that Langley's
> attendance area is so vast because the density of
> housing is sparse compared with most other areas
> in the County - that means the house lot sizes are
> bigger, thus less students per acre, for those of
> you in Eastern Vienna.
>
> Per Neen's comment regarding GT centers not being
> popular with principals because they show up the
> 'other' kids, wouldn't the same be true if GT
> students were attending their base schools? Why
> can't the reverse be true, that GT kids left in
> their base schools would be good role models for
> the 'other' students? Why couldn't it be said
> that it is better not to remove students achieving
> the highest level to aspire to completely from
> their base schools? Couldn't it be said that
> abolishing GT centers would benefit all students
> by not making GT kids look like some kind of
> separate and not equal group, but rather by
> keeping them as role models?
>
> It occurs to me that the only folks opposed to
> abolishing GT centers are those parents like Neen
> whose children benefit the most from them. After
> all, unlike the rest of the poor stupid saps in
> the county, their kids are getting a private
> school education without having to foot the
> additional bill.


Your Langley logic is flawed. While Langley families certain do not live in dense housing communities, that still doesn't explain why the SB allows the boundary lines to go from the beltway to the Loudoun border--since they just paid for and built that $10 addition to accommodate their bursting population. Also, the weird boundary lines near the Loudoun border are too obvious examples of poitics at play. The fact the neighborhoods like Wyndham Hills (on Reston Parkway near Rt 7--BUT on the Reston side of Rt 7) is truly appalling. On top of that, the SB and Tisdadt had stated for the record--in the CIP--that they had already planned the RD to come from the west when they approved the Langley addition. This means that had decided to exempt Langley from the process--FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON GIVEN--and go to communities to the west for the RD. The fact that they would so cavalierly approved a multi-million dollar addition when logic/budget and fiduciary responsibility scream something else is amazingly irresponsible with taxpayer dollars. What bums!!

Is it true that 85% of the CAPS parents are divorced, single parents or have troubled parenting situations?

Is this why they think the school board and Fairfax county schools should be a perfect environment for their kids? To compensate for the their poor parenting skills and failed family lifes?

The only reason the CAPS lawsuit has a leg to stand on is the SB's arrogance about exempting Langley from being considered.

That deliberate ommission has cost the school system tons in legal fees defending this lawsuit.

Good job Janie!

HHuh? Wrote:
> ...still doesn't explain why the SB
> allows the boundary lines to go from the beltway
> to the Loudoun border ...

The County has a Geographic Information System (GIS, which is kind of like a huge GPS unit) Department that has already collected an immense amount of County data.

It would be interesting to run a test of having every public school child (or at least every high school student) tentatively assigned to the closest (by commute time) school.

Just like GPS units can exclude freeways, "dangerous" commutes could also be excluded.

Then we could see what schools are "naturally" overcrowded, and THEN we could shift neighborhoods to other nearby schools.

22180 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "All Will Be Revealed", there's no reason that all
> the people who live in the north part of the
> county in neighborhoods with large lot sizes need
> to be kept together in one vast school attendance
> area. There are plenty of schools in the west
> side of the county to accommodate kids from the
> west half of the Dranesville district, and there
> are plenty of people in the east side of the
> county who could backfill Langley once the
> westerners were gone. The situation officially
> became ridiculous when it got to the point of
> ejecting Vienna kids from Kilmer to make more
> elbow room for the kids bused in from western
> Dranesville.
>
There are quite a few neighborhoods close to Langley HS (and, more importantly, D.C.) where the lots are not particularly large compared to other areas of the county where the land is less expensive.

I could see transportation issues making it impractical to send anyone east of the intersection of Old Dominion Drive and Georgetown Pike to any HS other than Langley. On the other hand, once you get further west, the north/south roads improve, so there is no reason why some of the students further west could not have been included within the Herndon, South Lakes and/or Marshall boundaries. In addition, there is no rational explanation as to why anyone south of Route 7 goes to Langley.

I have yet to hear a logical explanation for the construction of the Langley addition. I disagree with 22180's assessment that there are plenty of people from the east side of the county who could "backfill" Langley if the students from the west were reassigned. Indeed, it is for this very reason that the building of the Langley addition represents such a blatant exercise in "social engineering": it effectively creates an "RD-proof" attendance zone for Langley, to be filled by over 2000 affluent students whose parents have no reason to worry either that their kids will be reassigned to other schools or forced to attend an under-enrolled and/or unrenovated school.

Geesh! You anti-Langley folks are taking things out of context. I was not defending the Langley border, only responding to a comment about it being so vast, and the reason is wholly because housing density is sparse. I have no dog in the Langley area, because I don't live there, and yes, it would have been nice if they were included in boundary studies. Face facts, though, Langley and Herndon bump up into the top triangle of the County's borders and students in that area will probably always attend either Langley or Herndon. It would make no sense to piggy-back them to other districts.

BTW, I totally agree that the McLean boundary is a disgusting gerrymandered shame, and I have always thought the same about areas South of Route 7 attending Langley, North Reston attending Herndon and Madison Island attending Madison. I think Woodson's boundaries are also shameful. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why some schools do better than others.

Why, pray tell, does that GT student deserve to be bused to a special center? Why can't that kid be taught at their base school. Do kids in the bottom get sent to special centers? No, I am not speaking of MMR or ED kids, just kids at the bottom of the bell curve, so to speak. No, they don't.

Tracking would solve the problem for teachers of teaching to different levels. BTW, not all GT kids are created equal. Some are good at math, but suck at English. What of those poor GT English teachers who have to suffer the pencil-necked geeks who hate to write, at the expense of little Mary the child skilled in language arts who hates math.



GT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A teacher deserves a chance to teach students at
> similar levels to maximize students achievement of
> her effort. If she has to teach a zillion
> different levels. Have you realize how much extra
> material the teacher needs to prepare and keeps
> track of?
>
> A GT student deserves the same education
> opportunity as his/her peers.
>
> Calling regular class as shit, or GT students as
> entitled, privilleged, has nothing to do with GT
> or the students. It's every bit of what the small
> group of parents say or think.

so after looking at the county wide high school maps how and why were madison and Oakton built so close together? ( you might say fairfax is close to those two schools as well). How and why were Langley and McLean built so close to each other? Woodoson is also close to Fairfax. I know there are other I am leaving out, one has to ask why and to stop this from happening in the future if and when a new high school would be built. Honestly almost the whole district needs to be re adjusted if you look at where schools appear in their boundaries, often it is at a corner, not in the middle or even close to a central location, students who live in the far west of the fairfax boundary must live closer to at least one high school. Also look at all the islands( pointed out on the map excluding an airport or a college) not addressed. McLean and Woodson are the two big ones, along with Falls Church. Look at the length of some of the boundaries like Oakton, Langley and Hayfeild, long and narrow with Langley looking the worst with students traveling quite a distance to school. Imagine the gas money that could be saved if that was redrawn. So pretty much the whole system needs to be redrawn to make things correct for everyone in the county

All Will Be Revealed Wrote:
> ... Some are good at math, but
> suck at English. What of those poor GT English
> teachers who have to suffer the pencil-necked
> geeks who hate to write, at the expense of little
> Mary the child skilled in language arts who hates
> math.

---------
Can you try to make your point without insulting children, like calling students who are good at math but weak at English "pencil-necked geeks"?

Then we can discuss if tracking can survive in schools today, especially if it results in too many of some group of students and too few of another. For example, would your elementary school allow the "accelerated math class" to continue if it consistently had about ninety percent boys?

mr e Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so after looking at the county wide high school
> maps how and why were madison and Oakton built so
> close together? ( you might say fairfax is close
> to those two schools as well). How and why were
> Langley and McLean built so close to each other?
> Woodoson is also close to Fairfax. I know there
> are other I am leaving out, one has to ask why and
> to stop this from happening in the future if and
> when a new high school would be built. Honestly
> almost the whole district needs to be re adjusted
> if you look at where schools appear in their
> boundaries, often it is at a corner, not in the
> middle or even close to a central location,
> students who live in the far west of the fairfax
> boundary must live closer to at least one high
> school. Also look at all the islands( pointed out
> on the map excluding an airport or a college) not
> addressed. McLean and Woodson are the two big
> ones, along with Falls Church. Look at the length
> of some of the boundaries like Oakton, Langley and
> Hayfeild, long and narrow with Langley looking the
> worst with students traveling quite a distance to
> school. Imagine the gas money that could be saved
> if that was redrawn. So pretty much the whole
> system needs to be redrawn to make things correct
> for everyone in the county

Did any of the Board Members suggest a county wide redistricting study at Monday's work session? Was there any positive response? How did Mr. Tisdat's office respond?

All Will Be Revealed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geesh! You anti-Langley folks are taking things
> out of context. I was not defending the Langley
> border, only responding to a comment about it
> being so vast, and the reason is wholly because
> housing density is sparse. I have no dog in the
> Langley area, because I don't live there, and yes,
> it would have been nice if they were included in
> boundary studies. Face facts, though, Langley and
> Herndon bump up into the top triangle of the
> County's borders and students in that area will
> probably always attend either Langley or Herndon.
> It would make no sense to piggy-back them to other
> districts.
>
> BTW, I totally agree that the McLean boundary is a
> disgusting gerrymandered shame, and I have always
> thought the same about areas South of Route 7
> attending Langley, North Reston attending Herndon
> and Madison Island attending Madison. I think
> Woodson's boundaries are also shameful. It
> doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why
> some schools do better than others.

All views are welcome on this threat. However, those appearing to defend Langley boundaries or Stu Gibson should bring a hard hat and get tetanus shots first. :)

All Will Be Revealed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, not all GT kids are created equal. Some are good at math, but
> suck at English. What of those poor GT English
> teachers who have to suffer the pencil-necked
> geeks who hate to write, at the expense of little
> Mary the child skilled in language arts who hates
> math.

I remember when in elementary school all of the GT students excelled in both Math and Writing. I never observed one being advanced in either and not the other. Did FCPS lower its standards over the years?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If
> they put those kids back into base schools it will
> help the test scores at some of those schools and
> it won't be so obvious that some students are
> doing better than others. Abolishing GT centers
> is a win-win for staff and afterall, that's who
> the school board works for.

Absolutely the opposite.

If you disbanded the GT centers you'd have to close schools such as Hughes MS where the performance is shocking

The political firestorm would be more than the board could stand

That's why the GT centers are placed in poorly performing schools - to hide performance so poor it would be on the front page of the Post or you'd get DC schools into improve the situation.

That's why the board needs GT centers.

The county should be forced to break out the performance of GT and non-GT elements of schools with GT centers - I think you'd find it illuminating

mentoring or doing the teacher's job? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no problem with some gifted kids helping
> out the kids who are struggling but sometimes kids
> are taken advantage of.
>
> I remember a situation at my daughter's elementary
> school a few years back. A new student from
> Pakistan or somewhere who didn't speak much
> english was plopped into a regular 6th grade
> classroom with no interpreter. There was a kid in
> the class who happened to speak the same language
> and he basically served as the translator for this
> kid for the rest of the year.
>
> I would imagine that that took its toll on the
> other kid and slowed down dis educational progress
> as he spent much of his day helping this other
> kid.
>
> Just an example where the school system transfers
> the job of instruction from themselves to the
> students.


So, should every child who doesn't speak English get a personal interpreter to sit next to him during the school day? Is that really what you want to advocate for?

Madison Is Not an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The proposed Annandale - Falls Church - Stuart
> > redistricting is the perfect opportunity to
> close
> > Holmes, re-open it as an elementary school, and
> > align the boundaries of the three remaining
> middle
> > schools with their high schools. (Send western
> > Jackson, the future Oakton students, to
> > Franklin.)
> > >
> I expect that there was a time when the Jackson
> attendance area was more completely aligned with
> Falls Church. Was Jackson redistricted to include
> some Oakton students because of growth in the
> western part of the county and a capacity issue at
> Franklin or because there were performance issues
> at Jackson? I realize the answers may not be
> mutually exclusive.
>
> I am curious as to whether parents in the
> Oakton-Jackson-Oakton pyramid would prefer
> Oakton-Franklin-Oakton. It looks like having kids
> at both Oakton and Franklin could be quite a
> logistical challenge (Oakton appears to be a good
> bit closer to Jackson than Franklin).


I expect there was a time when the Jackson boundary was aligned with the borders of Fairfax County. Not all that long ago it was the school for negro students living in Fairfax County. You all should study some history before speculating on old boundaries and the reasoning behind them. Most of this county has changed dramatically over the years and the schools have also.

scroll back a few pages for an answer


more questions Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mr e Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > so after looking at the county wide high school
> > maps how and why were madison and Oakton built
> so
> > close together? ( you might say fairfax is
> close
> > to those two schools as well). How and why were
> > Langley and McLean built so close to each
> other?
> > Woodoson is also close to Fairfax. I know there
> > are other I am leaving out, one has to ask why
> and
> > to stop this from happening in the future if
> and
> > when a new high school would be built. Honestly
> > almost the whole district needs to be re
> adjusted
> > if you look at where schools appear in their
> > boundaries, often it is at a corner, not in the
> > middle or even close to a central location,
> > students who live in the far west of the
> fairfax
> > boundary must live closer to at least one high
> > school. Also look at all the islands( pointed
> out
> > on the map excluding an airport or a college)
> not
> > addressed. McLean and Woodson are the two big
> > ones, along with Falls Church. Look at the
> length
> > of some of the boundaries like Oakton, Langley
> and
> > Hayfeild, long and narrow with Langley looking
> the
> > worst with students traveling quite a distance
> to
> > school. Imagine the gas money that could be
> saved
> > if that was redrawn. So pretty much the whole
> > system needs to be redrawn to make things
> correct
> > for everyone in the county
>
> Did any of the Board Members suggest a county
> wide redistricting study at Monday's work session?
> Was there any positive response? How did Mr.
> Tisdat's office respond?

personal interpreters Wrote:
>
> So, should every child who doesn't speak English
> get a personal interpreter to sit next to him
> during the school day? Is that really what you
> want to advocate for?
>
Whoa, that's quite a stretch based on the original poster's comments.
Mentoring simply stated (and I agree) that the responsibility of being an interpreter, or any type of instructional aide, should not be placed on another student, regardless of how bright they might be.

All Will Be Revealed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why, pray tell, does that GT student deserve to be
> bused to a special center? Why can't that kid be
> taught at their base school. Do kids in the
> bottom get sent to special centers? No, I am not
> speaking of MMR or ED kids, just kids at the
> bottom of the bell curve, so to speak. No, they
> don't.
>
> Tracking would solve the problem for teachers of
> teaching to different levels. BTW, not all GT
> kids are created equal. Some are good at math, but
> suck at English. What of those poor GT English
> teachers who have to suffer the pencil-necked
> geeks who hate to write, at the expense of little
> Mary the child skilled in language arts who hates
> math.
>
And some GT students are skilled at nothing, they just have busy body parents who think GT centers pave the way to MIT or Stanford

try a little history lesson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I expect there was a time when the Jackson
> boundary was aligned with the borders of Fairfax
> County. Not all that long ago it was the school
> for negro students living in Fairfax County. You
> all should study some history before speculating
> on old boundaries and the reasoning behind them.
> Most of this county has changed dramatically over
> the years and the schools have also.

Part of the county's history, for sure, and apparently a neglected one (you won't find information about this legacy on the school's current web page). As you seem to know a great deal about the school, perhaps you could go ahead and tell us when the current Jackson middle school boundaries were put in place.

The Kilmer-Jackson boundary study led me to get pretty familiar with Jackson's web site. It does have a brief history of the school that begins with its segregated past:

http://www.fcps.edu/LutherJacksonMS/history.html

22180 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Kilmer-Jackson boundary study led me to get
> pretty familiar with Jackson's web site. It does
> have a brief history of the school that begins
> with its segregated past:
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/LutherJacksonMS/history.html

Thanks for that - didn't see it.

GT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To All Will Be Revealed,
> A GT student may not necessarily be the role model
> -- for example, if the GT kid knows inside and out
> what the classroom is learning as a new subject,
> he/she may become bored and disruptive to the
> class. Also it may have a unwanted psycological
> impact to the rest of class.
>
> I'm not sure about others, but I know for my kid,
> several things can happen if someone else graps
> something so fast and so easy in the class: she'll
> quickly resign with an "I'm not good at the
> subject" attitude, then join the familiar
> activities, aka, playing, talking, anything a
> distraction to the new hard topic she's suppose to
> digest and learn.
>
> For that matter, I'd rather to see my child learn
> with kids relatively at the same level, not a
> genius that appears to know everything
> effortlessly -- that'll be what other kids see. If
> they are so good, I don't mind they go a grade or
> two ahead and be somewhere else.
>
> Lastly, other than buses, I don't see anywhere
> published in FCPS suggesting GT centers require
> more resources.

You are correct. GT center classes have no extra resources. They have big classes and one teacher.

In the past all of the GT students were the top 5%, with reading at least 2 grade levels ahead. Now, there are children functioning below grade level in every GT center. GT teachers must teach on multiple levels and GT centers must have remedial classes for those below grade level. The top 5% are no longer permitted to be taught together, they cannot advance to higher levels in math or reading or anything else. The top kids are bored to death because instruction must be dumbed down to a level to address the needs of the academically diverse.

GT centers are fast approaching centers for socially, racially, economically, and geographically diverse, and not much else.

elephant in the room Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wake the hell up people-THERE IS NO
> MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Montgomery County doesn't have enough money for
> gas for their buses and is expanding the walking
> distance for kids to 2 miles.
>
> Do you honestly think FCPS is any different?
>
> Any GT center that pulls high achievers from lousy
> schools will be killed. NCLB is calling the shots
> and the scores are dreadful at some schools-they
> need these kids to pad the numbers.
>
> We have a 2 year backlog on maintenance requests-2
> years-no dineros, folks.
>
> Teachers keep hemanding 3-5 percent wage
> increases-the budget is flat-and the slaries eat
> up 85 percent of the budget. Do the math.

Good point. Some of those 14,000 administrators need to return to the classroom, or get out. Salaries are out of hand with only 1/3 of staff being teachers. What other business has 2 administrative support staff for every person doing the work?

They can forget their send Taj Mahal office building while schools wait for renovations. They can stop expanding administrative staff while cutting teachers and expanding class size to save money.

Take the money out of Gatehouse and put it back in the classroom.

CindyLu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> The really smart kids or really all those parents
> that think their little Johnny's or Suzie's are
> "God's gift" should just go to private school
> where parent's dollars can give their prodigies
> all the time and attention they deserve. LEt the
> normal kids shine without any GTs or "GGs" in the
> PS system. Normal kids would no longer have to
> deal with these GT-shroud wearing kids who seem to
> think they are better than everybody else and
> think it is ok to treat the rest of their "normal"
> classmates like shit.

Thank you for that cogent argument in support of GT centers. Those GT kids really shouldn't be in classes with prejudice children like your's.

BTW, those rich GT parents pay more in taxes for YOUR schools than you do. That should make you feel better about your 'normal (below average) child. Rich people will always may more than you do to support your child's education.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2008 11:57PM by Neen.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GT Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If a child or a group of child routinely
> perform
> > this kind of activity (so that they don't
> harass
> > others), it is taking away this child's
> > opportunity to learn on the subject area. It
> also
> > takes away a normal child's chance to shine. I
> > think the GT center idea is a win-win for
> > everyone.
>
>
> As I don't have the means or desire to argue
> against supporting GT centers, I won't. However, I
> do see at least equal worth in having several GT
> students fully participating in regular classes,
> being given additional work, attending
> after-school sessions, and serving as mentors.
> Definitely I see leadership being nurtured in
> these students under those conditions, and I find
> that just as important to develop in younger
> generations as academics and arts.

Why don't GT kids deserve to be taught at their level rather than being teachers' assistants? What if they are shy, kids who don't want to be leaders but want to learn more math and science so they can become medical researchers or Math professors? Why must everyone be trained to be a leader? Why must everyone be taught at the same level and trained to have the same personality?

Nogt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> No Just kicked out. Or how about the GT kids just
> mix in with everyone else and forget the label. In
> the end, when they join the rest of us in the real
> world they become one of us anyway. This is a
> shocker to a lot of GT kids.

Yeah, they join the real world, as your boss.

Sorry, but those kids will never be in your 'real world'.

mr e Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so after looking at the county wide high school
> maps how and why were madison and Oakton built so
> close together? ( you might say fairfax is close
> to those two schools as well). How and why were
> Langley and McLean built so close to each other?
> Woodoson is also close to Fairfax. I know there
> are other I am leaving out, one has to ask why and
> to stop this from happening in the future if and
> when a new high school would be built. Honestly
> almost the whole district needs to be re adjusted
> if you look at where schools appear in their
> boundaries, often it is at a corner, not in the
> middle or even close to a central location,
> students who live in the far west of the fairfax
> boundary must live closer to at least one high
> school. Also look at all the islands( pointed out
> on the map excluding an airport or a college) not
> addressed. McLean and Woodson are the two big
> ones, along with Falls Church. Look at the length
> of some of the boundaries like Oakton, Langley and
> Hayfeild, long and narrow with Langley looking the
> worst with students traveling quite a distance to
> school. Imagine the gas money that could be saved
> if that was redrawn. So pretty much the whole
> system needs to be redrawn to make things correct
> for everyone in the county

Several of our school board members agree with you, they want the entire county redistricted, but they are not yet a majority.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All Will Be Revealed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BTW, not all GT kids are created equal. Some are
> good at math, but
> > suck at English. What of those poor GT English
> > teachers who have to suffer the pencil-necked
> > geeks who hate to write, at the expense of
> little
> > Mary the child skilled in language arts who
> hates
> > math.
>
> I remember when in elementary school all of the GT
> students excelled in both Math and Writing. I
> never observed one being advanced in either and
> not the other. Did FCPS lower its standards over
> the years?

Yes, very much so.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Several of our school board members agree with
> you, they want the entire county redistricted, but
> they are not yet a majority.


What the recent RD debacle showed was that the vast majority of parents who would be affected by major RD are fundamentally opposed because the justifications just are not there.

Major county-wide or even north-county / south-county RD had no substantial support amongst the public

What the public would undoubtably support is fixing failing schools not hiding behind desk-chair shuffling

In the recent RD, the board attempted to use an non-existent facilities excuse to tackle a performance problem,

If they'd owned up to the performance problem that was clear in all the stats - RD would not have been the answer

There is no pressing need for a major RD - but there is a need to fix some of the dreadful performance gaps - and frankly much of that will be down to the specific communities involved.

For example, SLHS as a poorly performing school was receiving far more resources than, for example Madison, but rather than fixing a poorly performing school or encouraging the poorly performing communities to take education seriously, all RD did was to bring in warm high-potential bodies to hide the problem.

A county wide RD would be just be that in spades - it would average the performance to the lowest common denominator except for a few well protected communities. You'd just see rampant cherry picking of communities to bolster failing schools and as always the whole thing would have been squared away behind closed doors with a veneer of hearings and alternatives.

After the recent RD would you trust your board member? or anyone-else's?

In addition, if you thought the recent RD was politically charged can you imagine what a county wide RD would be like. It would be civil war and just get driven to a standstill in the courts.

On one side you'd have people asking why we don't just tackle local overcrowding by clamping down on illegals and on the other you'd have people claiming that any discussion of performance was racist (as we've already seen), How well do you think that would go? That would play well in the national press.

As Richard Florida continually pointed out, the high skilled workforce who drive the economic success of the county are incredibly mobile. They care about education and if you mess with it, they'll just go elsewhere. FFX is not be the be-all and end-all, and with the coming decline in defense contract spending, the county is just not that well placed. We should be aiming to be an aspirational place to live with the world's best education system, rather than trying to average down to the failing schools.

County-wide RD would be a massive waste of community energy and a complete disaster - all for no real reason.

There is no overriding facilities problem in FFX - there are pockets of endemic poor performance and that's not something you fix with RD

The board should just leave our families alone and just let our kids get on with learning

no justification for large scale RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Several of our school board members agree with
> > you, they want the entire county redistricted,
> but
> > they are not yet a majority.
>
>
> What the recent RD debacle showed was that the
> vast majority of parents who would be affected by
> major RD are fundamentally opposed because the
> justifications just are not there.
>
> Major county-wide or even north-county /
> south-county RD had no substantial support amongst
> the public
>
> What the public would undoubtably support is
> fixing failing schools not hiding behind
> desk-chair shuffling
>
> In the recent RD, the board attempted to use an
> non-existent facilities excuse to tackle a
> performance problem,
>
> If they'd owned up to the performance problem that
> was clear in all the stats - RD would not have
> been the answer
>
> There is no pressing need for a major RD - but
> there is a need to fix some of the dreadful
> performance gaps - and frankly much of that will
> be down to the specific communities involved.
>
> For example, SLHS as a poorly performing school
> was receiving far more resources than, for example
> Madison, but rather than fixing a poorly
> performing school or encouraging the poorly
> performing communities to take education
> seriously, all RD did was to bring in warm
> high-potential bodies to hide the problem.
>
> A county wide RD would be just be that in spades -
> it would average the performance to the lowest
> common denominator except for a few well protected
> communities. You'd just see rampant cherry picking
> of communities to bolster failing schools and as
> always the whole thing would have been squared
> away behind closed doors with a veneer of hearings
> and alternatives.
>
> After the recent RD would you trust your board
> member? or anyone-else's?
>
> In addition, if you thought the recent RD was
> politically charged can you imagine what a county
> wide RD would be like. It would be civil war and
> just get driven to a standstill in the courts.
>
> On one side you'd have people asking why we don't
> just tackle local overcrowding by clamping down on
> illegals and on the other you'd have people
> claiming that any discussion of performance was
> racist (as we've already seen), How well do you
> think that would go? That would play well in the
> national press.
>
> As Richard Florida continually pointed out, the
> high skilled workforce who drive the economic
> success of the county are incredibly mobile. They
> care about education and if you mess with it,
> they'll just go elsewhere. FFX is not be the
> be-all and end-all, and with the coming decline in
> defense contract spending, the county is just not
> that well placed. We should be aiming to be an
> aspirational place to live with the world's best
> education system, rather than trying to average
> down to the failing schools.
>
> County-wide RD would be a massive waste of
> community energy and a complete disaster - all for
> no real reason.
>
> There is no overriding facilities problem in FFX -
> there are pockets of endemic poor performance and
> that's not something you fix with RD
>
> The board should just leave our families alone and
> just let our kids get on with learning



Amen. County RD is not needed, has no justification, and won't get 7 votes. Anybody who has been through a boundary study or the 1984 9 school HS boundary will agree.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't GT kids deserve to be taught at their
> level rather than being teachers' assistants?
> What if they are shy, kids who don't want to be
> leaders but want to learn more math and science so
> they can become medical researchers or Math
> professors?

I think you know that learning leadership and becoming a medical researcher or Math professor is not mutually exclusive. My point is that students don't live in vacuums where knowledge is exclusively their raison d'etre; they are social and need to be connected with the collective.

> Why must everyone be trained to be a
> leader? Why must everyone be taught at the same
> level and trained to have the same personality?

I didn't say that; but I'll accept your hyperbole as rhetorical.

Berdhuis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you know that learning leadership and
> becoming a medical researcher or Math professor is
> not mutually exclusive. My point is that students
> don't live in vacuums where knowledge is
> exclusively their raison d'etre; they are social
> and need to be connected with the collective.
>
> > Why must everyone be trained to be a
> > leader? Why must everyone be taught at the
> same
> > level and trained to have the same personality?
>
> I didn't say that; but I'll accept your hyperbole
> as rhetorical.

------------------
This is NOT a rhetorical question: why must every student be taught to be a leader? For that matter, why should every student be taught a second language? Shouldn't schools PRIMARILY concern themselves with English, then math, then social studies, then science, and THEN PE and all the other stuff?

If the schools first ensured each student was fluent in English (read, write, and speak it fluently) then the rest of the educational process would be much more effective.

The new goals set by the School Board include the following. I know most of you have read how "racist" the initial data collection effort appeared, but my point is "leadership" is not listed.

Goal 2. ESSENTIAL LIFE SKILLS
All students will demonstrate the aptitude, attitude, and skills to lead responsible, fulfilling, and respectful lives. Working in partnership with school and family, students will:
2.1. Demonstrate sound moral character and ethical judgment:
2.1.1. Model honesty and integrity.
2.1.2. Take responsibility for their actions.
2.1.3. Keep their promises and commitments.
2.1.4. Respect people, property, and authority.
2.1.5. Exercise good stewardship of the environment.
2.1.6. Protect others’ health and safety.
2.1.7. Show respect and understanding for the interests and opinions of others.
2.1.8. Be capable of placing their own self-interests in perspective with the interests of others.
2.2. Be able to contribute effectively within a group dynamic.
2.3. Develop the resilience and self-confidence required to deal effectively with life’s challenges.
2.4. Possess the skills to manage and resolve conflict.
2.5. Be inspired to learn throughout life.
2.6. Courageously identify and pursue their personal goals.
2.7. Develop practical life skills including but not limited to:
2.7.1. Problem solving/critical thinking.
2.7.2. Work habits and ethics.
2.7.3. Financial competency.
2.7.4. Self-sufficiency.
2.7.5. Time management.
2.8. Make healthy and safe life choices.

Goal 3. RESPONSIBILITY TO THE COMMUNITY
All students will understand and model the important attributes that people must have to contribute to an effective and productive community and the common good of all. Students will:
3.1. Know and practice the duties, responsibilities, and rights of citizenship in a democratic society.
3.2. Be respectful and contributing participants in their school, community, country, and world.
3.3. Understand the purpose, role, and means of interaction with the different levels of government.

Attend a FCSB work session at the Gatehouse. The room is packed with administrative staff who are there to support the one adminstrative staff presenting to the board. At one work session, there were 23 people in suits and with laptops or a blackberry who appeared to be there in support of the one administrative staff person who was presenting. She finished her 45 minute presentation, the room emptied. Before someone jumps on my statement, I did not query each person, I am just reporting an observation. It is quite possible all these people were interested in the topic or they just wanted to skip working.

While a lower grade teacher is lucky if he/she has an assistant to help with 25 to 30 kids, the administrator appeared to have a support team of 20 plus people.

Our tax dollars at work. Be brave and show up at a FCSB work session.

Another point of interest, the parking garage at Gatehouse empties between 3:30 and 4:30. Observe the administrative staff leaving....they don't have big tote bags that are crammed with papers to correct, lesson plans, etc. They stroll out empty handed.

I am willing to take the lumps if someone has a different perception that all administrative staff are cruicial and they need another Gatehouse building.


Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> elephant in the room Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wake the hell up people-THERE IS NO
> > MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Montgomery County doesn't have enough money for
> > gas for their buses and is expanding the
> walking
> > distance for kids to 2 miles.
> >
> > Do you honestly think FCPS is any different?
> >
> > Any GT center that pulls high achievers from
> lousy
> > schools will be killed. NCLB is calling the
> shots
> > and the scores are dreadful at some
> schools-they
> > need these kids to pad the numbers.
> >
> > We have a 2 year backlog on maintenance
> requests-2
> > years-no dineros, folks.
> >
> > Teachers keep hemanding 3-5 percent wage
> > increases-the budget is flat-and the slaries
> eat
> > up 85 percent of the budget. Do the math.
>
> Good point. Some of those 14,000 administrators
> need to return to the classroom, or get out.
> Salaries are out of hand with only 1/3 of staff
> being teachers. What other business has 2
> administrative support staff for every person
> doing the work?
>
> They can forget their send Taj Mahal office
> building while schools wait for renovations. They
> can stop expanding administrative staff while
> cutting teachers and expanding class size to save
> money.
>
> Take the money out of Gatehouse and put it back in
> the classroom.

Can somebody please forward this case information to the lawyer for the CAPS. This is great case for him-

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/appealed_strike_call_taken_all_the

WASHINGTON—The United States Supreme Court heard oral arguments yesterday in the case of Wright v. Dreckman, which calls into question professional baseball player David Wright's 2005 check swing against the San Diego Padres and whether or not the resulting strike call should be upheld.

The decision was first handed down in New York's lowest circuit court, Shea Stadium, after presiding home-plate umpire Ed Montague was unable to rule in the case. San Diego Padres catcher Ramon Hernandez, acting on the advice of now-retired pitcher Pedro Astacio, then filed an immediate appeal with first-base umpire Bruce Dreckman, who ruled against Wright. However, according to defense attorney David B. Reiss, in order for justice to be served, the decision must be overturned by the Supreme Court and the strike ruled a ball.

The called strike pushed the count to an even 2-2.

I taught in the county for over 30 years. When I first started teaching here, the classes were basically tracked. A teacher knew for sure that at least three classes would be full of kids who were there to learn. Classroom disruptions were rare and discipline was pretty cut and dried. Over the years, the educational powers to be had all the schools mainstream kids who were formerly in special ed or in special schools. Now it's not unusual to have kids in a classroom with emotional problems, developmental problems (IQ's of 80 or less) various learning disabliites ( ex. ADD, or reading problems) or severe behavior problems ( Opposotional Defiance Disorder, anger management problems, criminal behavior, sociopaths, psychopaths etc) In former years, these kids were in special classes or special schools like Bryant. In addition, chronic bad kids were expelled. We can't expell kids any more: we just move them to another school.

Secondly, more and more kids in Fairfax County are coming to school with little or no language skills or they come from an impoverished home. More and more parents are lacking skills to control their kids or to teach them right from wrong. Drugs are more rampant as is alcohol abuse. So instead of the nice, well behaved kid in a classroom with other nice well behaved kids who want to learn and want to do well in school, that kid is going to be in a classroom with social deviants, kids with limited English skills that will dumb down the class, kids with no values who settle things by fighting or stealing, kids who sit there and do nothing but come only for the free lunch and the socializing. This atmosphere is bound to affect kids who were taught to come to school to learn.
Just because you moved to Fairfax after living in Desmoines Iowa and read the PR stuff about FCPS and then purchased a $700,000 home here does not mean your kid will be attending a safe or learning friendly environment.
I would urge all parents to come into the schools and look around. Don't be like the room mothers or PTO volunteers and just stock books in the media center or sort out gift wrap at home or in a small office out of the way of the students. Stand in the halls during class changes, use the student restrooms, go to an assembly, eat lunch in the cafeteria with the kids, walk into your own child's classes and quietly sit down. It will be an eye opener. Oh and before you leave, take a walk outside the building and see what's going on by the back of the cafeteria, parking lots, trailers etc. Teachers do this on a regular basis as part of our jobs and that's why many of us are not feeling too optimistic about the state of public education. And we teach in one of the better places!!!!

Couple this in with parents who blame the schools for everything - kids on drugs, kid not getting into UVA, kid not getting into GT, kid getting a D or F, kid bored with school, kid cuts school, kid gets picked on, kid did not make honor roll, ( Well you get my drift.)
So they can draw those school borders any way they want and the problems you guys all talk about will still be there. My recommendations are - start expelling kids once again, create more alternative schools, prosecute juveniles for offenses committed in our schools ( assault, drugs,stealing, vandalism), put special education kids in resource rooms not in regular classes unless they can handle the work, not allow illegal immigrants in schools without more command of our culture and language, stop asking schools to do social work, back up teachers and administrars on discipline issues, (no more appeals!). Okay, those are my ideas and I realize they aren't popular but unless you spent a lot of time in our schools, I don't think you have the true picture.

I am a parent of two kids who were in GT - well past the elementary and middle school years - and I never found the concept of a GT center in and of itself attractive. Our base school would have been just fine - although at either the base school or the GT center the kids needed some fairly challenging work to keep them stimulated. We went to the GT center because frankly it was marketed very rigorously by FCPS -- very, very, much so - and hence though it was worth a try. Our decision was not based on "elitism" - the principal at the base school was incredibly competent - but really rather was based on FCPS marketing pitch. And anyone who knew the principal of the school at that time would likely agree - she was incredibly assertive and sales oriented. And while the GT School did make a very sincere effort to challenge the GT kids, it was also incredibly obvious that the center was established to bring involved, caring parents into the school that otherwise would have been absent and to bring the scores and nature of the school "up." Again, this may be just my perception, but that is how the opportunity was marketed and sold. And the Hunters Woods GT center did their job passably - and in a few years with great teachers, far better than passably.

One thing that is often not recognized is that in most cases - forget for a moment the back and forth about imbalances between math vs. verbal skills - truly GT kids are often natural phonetic fast readers. This is an incredible advantage, for it buys them all sorts of time and energy to master challenges, such as that truly hard math problem, or physics problem, or that difficult lab or term paper that requires thought and organization. These kids will often relate they only have 15-20 minutes of really "hard" or intense challenge a day. So at a "base" school or GT "school" - so long as the parents stay involved and the GT kid is appropriately challenged, I am not sure things are going to turn out different at either place. By the way, this is not just the product of my surmising - those few great teachers at Hunters Woods would mention this concept to me in our parent conferences (I appreciate those teachers to this day). And I know a few TJ grads who went to base schools for k-8 and are now out conquering the world, so to speak, after graduation from the usual suspect set of universities. They were going to do well anywhere so long as that "anywhere" environment was a safe one.

The real challenge, as always, is teaching the kids on the lower end of the scale while still accomodating kids in the "middle" - recognizing that the kids in the "middle" in FCPS are hardly average when viewed from a national perspective but are above average, and keeping them engaged and developing. To this end, the GT center vs. base school argument is likely elliptical.

Jamie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it true that 85% of the CAPS parents are
> divorced, single parents or have troubled
> parenting situations?
>
> Is this why they think the school board and
> Fairfax county schools should be a perfect
> environment for their kids? To compensate for the
> their poor parenting skills and failed family
> lifes?


Where did you get that statistic? Clearly from your posterior. I do wonder why you suggest 85 percent--and not some other ramdon number also plucked from your posterior? As it turns out just about everybody from Caps is married (appear happy) and are very devoted to their children. I don't know any in a "troubled parenting situation". Gee, I wonder if the SLPTA can say that?? At least Caps wasn't involved in a plot to hijack children from one school to another. Clearly you have issues. I'm sorry your life is so miserable that you pick at other people who are just fighting for truth, honesty and the American way of life.

Quantum, thank you for the above post. Perhaps you didn't realize that prior to the GT center being located at Hunters Woods, it was at Crossfield. There was a push to move some students from over-crowded Crossfield to Hunters Woods, including kids attending Crossfield who would have matriculated to Hughes and SL (Fox Mill Woods). The Crossfield parents were so openly opposed to moving to Hunters Woods that the ultimate solution was to move the GT Center to HW, and create a magnet at HW to mollify the HW parents. That is why the GT center is at Hunters Woods. Believe me, contrary to what some other posters may say, HW did not want a GT center, but rather more school-based parents, which would have been much better for the school, and larger community in the long run.

I certainly remember you from Hunters Woods - my children attended as well, and we found it to be a wonderful learning environment. Many of their peers at HW who were not in the center have gone on to excel in all other aspects of higher learning and work. They loved the fact that they were with kids of all levels of intellect, something that non-center schools lack.

I agree with All Will Be Revealed that school-based GT instruction is the best solution.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree with All Will Be Revealed that
> school-based GT instruction is the best solution.

Welcome back, SLVerity!

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a parent of two kids who were in GT - well
> past the elementary and middle school years - and
> I never found the concept of a GT center in and of
> itself attractive. Our base school would have
> been just fine - although at either the base
> school or the GT center the kids needed some
> fairly challenging work to keep them stimulated.
> We went to the GT center because frankly it was
> marketed very rigorously by FCPS -- very, very,
> much so - and hence though it was worth a try. Our
> decision was not based on "elitism" - the
> principal at the base school was incredibly
> competent - but really rather was based on FCPS
> marketing pitch. And anyone who knew the principal
> of the school at that time would likely agree -
> she was incredibly assertive and sales oriented.
> And while the GT School did make a very sincere
> effort to challenge the GT kids, it was also
> incredibly obvious that the center was established
> to bring involved, caring parents into the school
> that otherwise would have been absent and to bring
> the scores and nature of the school "up." Again,
> this may be just my perception, but that is how
> the opportunity was marketed and sold. And the
> Hunters Woods GT center did their job passably -
> and in a few years with great teachers, far better
> than passably.
>
> One thing that is often not recognized is that in
> most cases - forget for a moment the back and
> forth about imbalances between math vs. verbal
> skills - truly GT kids are often natural phonetic
> fast readers. This is an incredible advantage,
> for it buys them all sorts of time and energy to
> master challenges, such as that truly hard math
> problem, or physics problem, or that difficult lab
> or term paper that requires thought and
> organization. These kids will often relate they
> only have 15-20 minutes of really "hard" or
> intense challenge a day. So at a "base" school or
> GT "school" - so long as the parents stay involved
> and the GT kid is appropriately challenged, I am
> not sure things are going to turn out different at
> either place. By the way, this is not just the
> product of my surmising - those few great teachers
> at Hunters Woods would mention this concept to me
> in our parent conferences (I appreciate those
> teachers to this day). And I know a few TJ grads
> who went to base schools for k-8 and are now out
> conquering the world, so to speak, after
> graduation from the usual suspect set of
> universities. They were going to do well anywhere
> so long as that "anywhere" environment was a safe
> one.
>
> The real challenge, as always, is teaching the
> kids on the lower end of the scale while still
> accomodating kids in the "middle" - recognizing
> that the kids in the "middle" in FCPS are hardly
> average when viewed from a national perspective
> but are above average, and keeping them engaged
> and developing. To this end, the GT center vs.
> base school argument is likely elliptical.

Quantum's last post: 11 GTs and 1 TJ.

Bonus points: 5 points for consistent use of the adverb "frankly" (also acceptable: "as we all know," and "let's face it")

Subtractions: -1 for forgetting to include the phrase "demographically challenged" and -1 for not making reference to demanding Midwestern high schools that put all Fairfax County schools to shame.

GRAND TOTAL: 14

The bar has now been set for the day - let the GT/TJ challenge begin!

In your experience (not what you were taught in Ed classes or told to say by the administration):

At what age should you start moving children around so the top math students are together? This appears to be "the system" by sixth grade. Would you start it younger?

Would you move elementary students between classrooms and teachers for any other subjects? Why or why not?

If a school has, for example, a hundred third graders and four teachers for them, would it work to have a classroom with the 35 highest ability students, a class of 28 high-average students, a class of 22 low-average students, and 15 below-average students?

Isn't a concentrated program the best way to learn a foreign language? For students who do not yet speak English, would it work to keep them together in an class where all they do is learn English until they are ready handle a regular classroom?

FCPS high schools have honors sections for English, math, science and social studies. What about that other mandated course, PE? Can an equivalent argument be made that gifted athletes should not be held back by or used as tutors for slower, weaker, less coordinated classmates?

no justification for large scale RD Wrote:
> What the recent RD debacle showed was that the
> vast majority of parents who would be affected by
> major RD are fundamentally opposed because the
> justifications just are not there.
>
> Major county-wide or even north-county /
> south-county RD had no substantial support amongst
> the public
>
> What the public would undoubtably support is
> fixing failing schools not hiding behind
> desk-chair shuffling
>
> In the recent RD, the board attempted to use an
> non-existent facilities excuse to tackle a
> performance problem,
>
> If they'd owned up to the performance problem that
> was clear in all the stats - RD would not have
> been the answer
>
> There is no pressing need for a major RD - but
> there is a need to fix some of the dreadful
> performance gaps - and frankly much of that will
> be down to the specific communities involved.
>
> For example, SLHS as a poorly performing school
> was receiving far more resources than, for example
> Madison, but rather than fixing a poorly
> performing school or encouraging the poorly
> performing communities to take education
> seriously, all RD did was to bring in warm
> high-potential bodies to hide the problem.
>
> A county wide RD would be just be that in spades -
> it would average the performance to the lowest
> common denominator except for a few well protected
> communities. You'd just see rampant cherry picking
> of communities to bolster failing schools and as
> always the whole thing would have been squared
> away behind closed doors with a veneer of hearings
> and alternatives.
>
> After the recent RD would you trust your board
> member? or anyone-else's?
>
> In addition, if you thought the recent RD was
> politically charged can you imagine what a county
> wide RD would be like. It would be civil war and
> just get driven to a standstill in the courts.
>
> On one side you'd have people asking why we don't
> just tackle local overcrowding by clamping down on
> illegals and on the other you'd have people
> claiming that any discussion of performance was
> racist (as we've already seen), How well do you
> think that would go? That would play well in the
> national press.
>
> ... County-wide RD would be a massive waste of
> community energy and a complete disaster - all for
> no real reason.
>
> There is no overriding facilities problem in FFX -
> there are pockets of endemic poor performance and
> that's not something you fix with RD
>
> The board should just leave our families alone and
> just let our kids get on with learning

-----
Thank you for a good post. I agree with part, disagree with a little, and obtained some new food for thought.

I agree schools should not be redistricted to hide performance problems. Redistricting should have only one purpose: to move students from overcrowded (or closing) schools to nearby (or new) schools that have space.

Middle schools have a second redistricting justification: contiguous boundaries for middle and high schools have many advantages including "vertical teaming" between middle and high school teachers, offering the same foreign languages as are taught in the high school, being able to bus students together, and developing community spirit. Students who plan to pupil place or otherwise attend an IB high school should be able to attend that high school's affiliated middle school; same for future AP students.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a parent of two kids who were in GT - well
> past the elementary and middle school years - and
> I never found the concept of a GT center in and of
> itself attractive. Our base school would have
> been just fine...

Seems to me when checking the Instructional services GT website that about half the middle schools have GT centers. Look at Kilmer, Jackson and the maps. Only schools missing GT centers in a wide swath of Fairfax County are thoreau and Cooper.

> ...We went to the GT center because frankly it was
> marketed very rigorously by FCPS -- very, very,
> much so - and hence though it was worth a try....

You are correct. It was a say what moment on can't or shouldn't go to their own school? it's also used as capacity and boundary control mechanism .

Mary Ellen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Attend a FCSB work session at the Gatehouse. The
> room is packed with administrative staff who are
> there to support the one adminstrative staff
> presenting to the board. At one work session,
> there were 23 people in suits and with laptops or
> a blackberry who appeared to be there in support
> of the one administrative staff person who was
> presenting. She finished her 45 minute
> presentation, the room emptied. Before someone
> jumps on my statement, I did not query each
> person, I am just reporting an observation. It is
> quite possible all these people were interested in
> the topic or they just wanted to skip working.
>
> While a lower grade teacher is lucky if he/she has
> an assistant to help with 25 to 30 kids, the
> administrator appeared to have a support team of
> 20 plus people.
>
> Our tax dollars at work. Be brave and show up at
> a FCSB work session.
>
> Another point of interest, the parking garage at
> Gatehouse empties between 3:30 and 4:30. Observe
> the administrative staff leaving....they don't
> have big tote bags that are crammed with papers to
> correct, lesson plans, etc. They stroll out empty
> handed.
>
> I am willing to take the lumps if someone has a
> different perception that all administrative staff
> are cruicial and they need another Gatehouse
> building.
>
>
>


This description of the SB work session is angering. Aren't these people busy with other projects? I do presentations to clients regarding millions of dollars and I GO BY MYSELF!!!! It is called "being prepared" and "doing your homework". I wish these meetings were not in the middle of the day-otherwise I would go.

I am anxious to sit in on a MSAOC meeting. I dn't understand what the hell they are doing. They DRAFTED a drop out report last August and it is just gathering dust. As if drop outs are not an important topic for the SB to discuss.

Everyone needs to send emails protesting Gatehouse II-it is a waste of money and the schools need the funds so much more.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Thank you for a good post. I agree with part,
> disagree with a little, and obtained some new food
> for thought.
>
> I agree schools should not be redistricted to hide
> performance problems. Redistricting should have
> only one purpose: to move students from
> overcrowded (or closing) schools to nearby (or
> new) schools that have space.
>
> Middle schools have a second redistricting
> justification: contiguous boundaries for middle
> and high schools have many advantages including
> "vertical teaming" between middle and high school
> teachers, offering the same foreign languages as
> are taught in the high school, being able to bus
> students together, and developing community
> spirit. Students who plan to pupil place or
> otherwise attend an IB high school should be able
> to attend that high school's affiliated middle
> school; same for future AP students.

I am largely in agreement with both of you, although I cannot resist the urge to point out that, if a redistricting is otherwise justified for capacity reasons, it would be a good thing to eliminate attendance islands that should not be grandfathered and serve as a visible reminder of past decisions that do not pass the smell test.

I would also note that there is a difference betweeen a county or region-wide study and a county or region-wide redistricting. One could understake a broad study and still determine at the end that only a limited number of changes were actually warranted. As the recent RD illustrates, studies that are narrow in scope from their inception are likely to be perceived as artificially constrained and designed to produce a pre-ordained result.

The reason I have not donated to CAPS is largely because that have been noticeably silent on other redistricting efforts in the county. South County Middle School should never be built-certainly not now during these dire economic times. There are 1200 empty seats in neighboring schools. Even Tistadt recommended a $10 million addition-but yet the SB votes to spend $70 million.

Why has CAPS said nothing about this wasteful act?

If they are opposed to redistricting FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, then they should just say so.

Let's face it-we have to shuffle kids around-we can't build new schools to solve problems.

Flaw in CAPS philosophy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason I have not donated to CAPS is largely
> because that have been noticeably silent on other
> redistricting efforts in the county. South County
> Middle School should never be built-certainly not
> now during these dire economic times. There are
> 1200 empty seats in neighboring schools. Even
> Tistadt recommended a $10 million addition-but yet
> the SB votes to spend $70 million.
>
> Why has CAPS said nothing about this wasteful
> act?
>
> If they are opposed to redistricting FOR ANY
> REASON WHATSOEVER, then they should just say so.
>
> Let's face it-we have to shuffle kids around-we
> can't build new schools to solve problems.


The core team of Caps is really a small group of volunteers. It would be great if they had the resources and support (more hard working volunteers) to address numerous community concerns, but right now I imagine they still are mighty busy dealing with the current HS RD issue. If you want a voice in Caps, join the organization--don't twiddle your thumbs waiting for them to turn to your issue. People put energy and resources behind issues that are important to them. Caps can't and won't do it all for you.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Flaw in CAPS philosophy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The reason I have not donated to CAPS is
> largely
> > because that have been noticeably silent on
> other
> > redistricting efforts in the county. South
> County
> > Middle School should never be built-certainly
> not
> > now during these dire economic times. There
> are
> > 1200 empty seats in neighboring schools. Even
> > Tistadt recommended a $10 million addition-but
> yet
> > the SB votes to spend $70 million.
> >
> > Why has CAPS said nothing about this wasteful
> > act?
> >
> > If they are opposed to redistricting FOR ANY
> > REASON WHATSOEVER, then they should just say
> so.
> >
> > Let's face it-we have to shuffle kids around-we
> > can't build new schools to solve problems.
>
>
> The core team of Caps is really a small group of
> volunteers. It would be great if they had the
> resources and support (more hard working
> volunteers) to address numerous community
> concerns, but right now I imagine they still are
> mighty busy dealing with the current HS RD issue.
> If you want a voice in Caps, join the
> organization--don't twiddle your thumbs waiting
> for them to turn to your issue. People put energy
> and resources behind issues that are important to
> them. Caps can't and won't do it all for you.

EXACTLY. Flaw, if you want to know why CAPS is not actively engaged in the whole South County issue, why don't you just ask them? Contacting them is easy, (email is info@fairfaxcaps.org). if you are concerned about SC, find a few others who share those concerns, and join CAPS, or make your own organization. The number of people actually doing the legwork for CAPS is probably around 20 or even less, most with full-time jobs and thus a limited amount of time to volunteer. They can't do everything for you.

Flaw in CAPS philosophy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason I have not donated to CAPS is largely
> because that have been noticeably silent on other
> redistricting efforts in the county. South County
> Middle School should never be built-certainly not
> now during these dire economic times. There are
> 1200 empty seats in neighboring schools. Even
> Tistadt recommended a $10 million addition-but yet
> the SB votes to spend $70 million.
>
> Why has CAPS said nothing about this wasteful
> act?
>
> If they are opposed to redistricting FOR ANY
> REASON WHATSOEVER, then they should just say so.
>
> Let's face it-we have to shuffle kids around-we
> can't build new schools to solve problems.

Nobody believes a word Tistadt says anymore. He hasn't been right on anything during his tenure. Do you think we need gatehouse 2?

Word on the street is he will be put out to pasture this Fall.

I have seen many of the CAPS folks in operation. If they are guilty of anything it is they have spent way too many hours going to town hall meetings where they heard the promises that their voices would be heard,spent hours researching and preparing testimonies where the only response they got from some school board members, "your time is up" or Gibson's inattentiveness, and they made personal and family financial sacrifices in order to contribute to a fund to help fight the decision the school board made.

Did this create troubling parent skill situations....possibly. If you measure parenting skills by how many cold dinners, serving quick carry out meals, and loss of family time due to attendance at meetings, hearigs, etc.

Do these parents have poor parenting skills and they want the school board to compensate for these failures? Absolutely not. They just want a level playing field, fairness, and not have some board members making deals behind closed doors to protect their little kingdoms......such as Langley was protected.








truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jamie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is it true that 85% of the CAPS parents are
> > divorced, single parents or have troubled
> > parenting situations?
> >
> > Is this why they think the school board and
> > Fairfax county schools should be a perfect
> > environment for their kids? To compensate for
> the
> > their poor parenting skills and failed family
> > lifes?
>
>
> Where did you get that statistic? Clearly from
> your posterior. I do wonder why you suggest 85
> percent--and not some other ramdon number also
> plucked from your posterior? As it turns out just
> about everybody from Caps is married (appear
> happy) and are very devoted to their children. I
> don't know any in a "troubled parenting
> situation". Gee, I wonder if the SLPTA can say
> that?? At least Caps wasn't involved in a plot to
> hijack children from one school to another.
> Clearly you have issues. I'm sorry your life is
> so miserable that you pick at other people who are
> just fighting for truth, honesty and the American
> way of life.

Fuck your kids. They're ugly.

SBS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Flaw in CAPS philosophy Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The reason I have not donated to CAPS is
> > largely
> > > because that have been noticeably silent on
> > other
> > > redistricting efforts in the county. South
> > County
> > > Middle School should never be built-certainly
> > not
> > > now during these dire economic times. There
> > are
> > > 1200 empty seats in neighboring schools.
> Even
> > > Tistadt recommended a $10 million
> addition-but
> > yet
> > > the SB votes to spend $70 million.
> > >
> > > Why has CAPS said nothing about this wasteful
> > > act?
> > >
> > > If they are opposed to redistricting FOR ANY
> > > REASON WHATSOEVER, then they should just say
> > so.
> > >
> > > Let's face it-we have to shuffle kids
> around-we
> > > can't build new schools to solve problems.
> >
> >
> > The core team of Caps is really a small group
> of
> > volunteers. It would be great if they had the
> > resources and support (more hard working
> > volunteers) to address numerous community
> > concerns, but right now I imagine they still
> are
> > mighty busy dealing with the current HS RD
> issue.
> > If you want a voice in Caps, join the
> > organization--don't twiddle your thumbs waiting
> > for them to turn to your issue. People put
> energy
> > and resources behind issues that are important
> to
> > them. Caps can't and won't do it all for you.
>
> EXACTLY. Flaw, if you want to know why CAPS is
> not actively engaged in the whole South County
> issue, why don't you just ask them? Contacting
> them is easy, (email is info@fairfaxcaps.org). if
> you are concerned about SC, find a few others who
> share those concerns, and join CAPS, or make your
> own organization. The number of people actually
> doing the legwork for CAPS is probably around 20
> or even less, most with full-time jobs and thus a
> limited amount of time to volunteer. They can't
> do everything for you.


Let me get this straight.

CAPS is too busy to even COMMENT on the building of a $70 million dollar school that we don't need when there are 1200 empty seats in neighboring schools, but they have time to form a committee on the Laurel Hill Elementary School boundary decision.

Spending $70 mill when WSHS, TJ and Marshall have been patiently waiting for funding, is hardly "my personal issue".

Your argument does not pass the smell test.

If CAPS wants to broaden their base they better get with it.

Questions for the Teachers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In your experience (not what you were taught in Ed
> classes or told to say by the administration):
>
> At what age should you start moving children
> around so the top math students are together? This
> appears to be "the system" by sixth grade. Would
> you start it younger?
>
> Would you move elementary students between
> classrooms and teachers for any other subjects?
> Why or why not?
>
> If a school has, for example, a hundred third
> graders and four teachers for them, would it work
> to have a classroom with the 35 highest ability
> students, a class of 28 high-average students, a
> class of 22 low-average students, and 15
> below-average students?
>
> Isn't a concentrated program the best way to learn
> a foreign language? For students who do not yet
> speak English, would it work to keep them together
> in an class where all they do is learn English
> until they are ready handle a regular classroom?
>
> FCPS high schools have honors sections for
> English, math, science and social studies. What
> about that other mandated course, PE? Can an
> equivalent argument be made that gifted athletes
> should not be held back by or used as tutors for
> slower, weaker, less coordinated classmates?


As I've mentioned many times, Forest Edge elementary does "flexible groupings" starting in kindergarten. All teachers in a specific grade level work as a team - their block times are aligned, so that the entire team teaches the same subject at the same time. They then break the students out into groups based on ability (determined by Bart testing or Ecart or possibly SOLs).

Here are the general breakouts by grade that I've seen in the past.
K: reading
1st grade: reading
2nd grade: reading and math
3rd grade: reading and math
4th grade: reading, math, and social studies
5th grade: reading, math, social studies, and science
6th grade: reading, math, social studies, and science

These groups are flexible in that if a student is showing great progress they will move up to the next group; conversely, if they are struggling with the material, they move down.

These are utilized based on the number of classrooms/grade, obviously. Special Ed teachers and IAs are sometimes utilized for a section, especially math and reading.

Seems a pretty simple concept, I'm not sure why other elementary schools do not do it.


Note: this is done at the base school level only. The GT center does their groupings differently, if at all.

I am confused Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Let me get this straight.
>
> CAPS is too busy to even COMMENT on the building
> of a $70 million dollar school that we don't need
> when there are 1200 empty seats in neighboring
> schools, but they have time to form a committee on
> the Laurel Hill Elementary School boundary
> decision.
>
> Spending $70 mill when WSHS, TJ and Marshall have
> been patiently waiting for funding, is hardly "my
> personal issue".
>
> Your argument does not pass the smell test.
>
> If CAPS wants to broaden their base they better
> get with it.

My understanding is that if planning or construction funds have already been obtained to renovate an existing school, that project will still have priority over the new South County Middle School. In Jefferson's case, the planning funds have already been appropriated. I'm not sure where West Springfield or Marshall stand.

Do others have a different understanding?

I am confused Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SBS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Huh? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Flaw in CAPS philosophy Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > The reason I have not donated to CAPS is
> > > largely
> > > > because that have been noticeably silent on
> > > other
> > > > redistricting efforts in the county. South
> > > County
> > > > Middle School should never be
> built-certainly
> > > not
> > > > now during these dire economic times.
> There
> > > are
> > > > 1200 empty seats in neighboring schools.
> > Even
> > > > Tistadt recommended a $10 million
> > addition-but
> > > yet
> > > > the SB votes to spend $70 million.
> > > >
> > > > Why has CAPS said nothing about this
> wasteful
> > > > act?
> > > >
> > > > If they are opposed to redistricting FOR
> ANY
> > > > REASON WHATSOEVER, then they should just
> say
> > > so.
> > > >
> > > > Let's face it-we have to shuffle kids
> > around-we
> > > > can't build new schools to solve problems.
> > >
> > >
> > > The core team of Caps is really a small group
> > of
> > > volunteers. It would be great if they had
> the
> > > resources and support (more hard working
> > > volunteers) to address numerous community
> > > concerns, but right now I imagine they still
> > are
> > > mighty busy dealing with the current HS RD
> > issue.
> > > If you want a voice in Caps, join the
> > > organization--don't twiddle your thumbs
> waiting
> > > for them to turn to your issue. People put
> > energy
> > > and resources behind issues that are
> important
> > to
> > > them. Caps can't and won't do it all for you.
> >
> > EXACTLY. Flaw, if you want to know why CAPS is
> > not actively engaged in the whole South County
> > issue, why don't you just ask them? Contacting
> > them is easy, (email is info@fairfaxcaps.org).
> if
> > you are concerned about SC, find a few others
> who
> > share those concerns, and join CAPS, or make
> your
> > own organization. The number of people
> actually
> > doing the legwork for CAPS is probably around
> 20
> > or even less, most with full-time jobs and thus
> a
> > limited amount of time to volunteer. They
> can't
> > do everything for you.
>
>
> Let me get this straight.
>
> CAPS is too busy to even COMMENT on the building
> of a $70 million dollar school that we don't need
> when there are 1200 empty seats in neighboring
> schools, but they have time to form a committee on
> the Laurel Hill Elementary School boundary
> decision.
>
> Spending $70 mill when WSHS, TJ and Marshall have
> been patiently waiting for funding, is hardly "my
> personal issue".
>
> Your argument does not pass the smell test.
>
> If CAPS wants to broaden their base they better
> get with it.

Yes, you are confused. What good does "commenting" on an issue do? The core of CAPS, in terms of workload, has been and is basically at capacity. In order for CAPS to expand their base, people like you need to "get with it", stop pissing and moaning on this website, get off their ass, and take an active role with CAPS, or some other group with an interest in school system policy.

You need a lesson in Business 101 pal.

You don't open a restaurant and then wait to offer food later or carry 3 items on the menu-noone will walk thru the door.

CAPS has to "sell themselves" to the community and they are doing a lousy job thus far. That's why only Madison Island people showed up at the courthouse-only a small group has a vested interest in the West County boundary war.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you the way it is. Unless CAPS starts presenting themselves as a broad parent advocacy group or as a watchdog against the FCPS bullies, aint nobody going to care if they survive.

People will join CAPS in masses as soon as they start appealing to other parents' concerns instead of their own self-interest.

Why should I or anyone else write a $500 check so that your kid can go to Madison instead of South Lakes?