Yes, every taxpayer and every parent in an area in which an elementary, middle, or high school needs renovation in the next ten years or so should care that the south county families are once again jumping in line to build an unneeded new school. Remember that last time they "creatively financed" to build SCSS, EVERY other project on the CIP list, including the South Lakes renovation, got pushed back an average of two years.

CAPS IS already addressing other issues and adding other interested groups, notably FAIRGRADE. The SLEEP advocates should also get in touch with CAPS.

CAPS is doing what the county PTA should have been doing all along, but the county PTA has been in bed with our overlords for too long. They won't say anything negative about our wonderful, great, and superior school system - except to say it needs more money.

--------------------

> > ... Spending $70 mill when WSHS, TJ and Marshall have
> > been patiently waiting for funding, is hardly
> > "my personal issue". ...
> >
SBS Wrote:
> ... In order for CAPS to expand their base,
> people like you need to "get with it", stop
> pissing and moaning on this website, get off their
> ass, and take an active role with CAPS, or some
> other group with an interest in school system
> policy.

Will CAPS win this court case? I don't know, but the next redistricting (Annandale, Stuart, Falls Church) will benefit from CAPS efforts to challenge the system.

You should support CAPS because it has a good chance of finally forcing some real change into the process.

SBS is an idiot Wrote:
> Why should I or anyone else write a $500 check so
> that your kid can go to Madison instead of South
> Lakes?

TJ Renovations Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am confused Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Let me get this straight.
> >
> > CAPS is too busy to even COMMENT on the
> building
> > of a $70 million dollar school that we don't
> need
> > when there are 1200 empty seats in neighboring
> > schools, but they have time to form a committee
> on
> > the Laurel Hill Elementary School boundary
> > decision.
> >
> > Spending $70 mill when WSHS, TJ and Marshall
> have
> > been patiently waiting for funding, is hardly
> "my
> > personal issue".
> >
> > Your argument does not pass the smell test.
> >
> > If CAPS wants to broaden their base they better
> > get with it.
>
> My understanding is that if planning or
> construction funds have already been obtained to
> renovate an existing school, that project will
> still have priority over the new South County
> Middle School. In Jefferson's case, the planning
> funds have already been appropriated. I'm not
> sure where West Springfield or Marshall stand.
>
> Do others have a different understanding?


I will have to go over the CIP to refresh my memory on what school has actually been funded. My understanding is that FCPS asks for money via bond referendums evry 2 years-about $300 million or so. The taxpayer foolishly agrees to give these ninconpoops a blank check. The problem is that they are limited to $155 million per year in debt accumulation so that FCPS keeps their AAA bond rating. So basically, money that is approved by taxpayers in say 2007-08 may not be actually "spent" until 5 years or so.

This is why they keep having to get more money for a project because they don't complete it for 3-4 years and the costs jump 30-40 percent.

FCPS School Board is supposed to allow all the schools currently in line to stay there but they are adding new schools (like WSHS) to the list. Who knows what they are going to do. Bradsher has no respect for the cue and is constantly trying to get her schools money-namely SOCO and WSHS.

TJ should be ok given their national prestige, it is Marshall that might get screwed.

The process is disorderly right now and as the money gets tighter-which it will-it will certainly get uglier.

As a Fox Mill parent, I was at the courthouse along with many of my Madison and Floris neighbors. As a CAPS member, I would welcome you to email us and let us know which committee you would be willing to serve on, which community you live in and the concerns that you have regarding your student's eduction, and/or what suggestions you have regarding transportation or budget. I can assure you, that unlike the school board members, CAPS will respond to your email. Your contribution of your time and expertise will be appreciated and welcomed.

I believe that Forum Reader and others may have asked about the new capacity report. The report is attached to the staff report on the Coppermine/Laurel Hill boundary study that will be addressed on July 24. It appears that some of the numbers are quite different from those presented in the last CIP.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/fairfax/Board.nsf/0/5a0456c1027460948725748700537112/$FILE/capacitybalance2008with2007.pdf

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nogt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > No Just kicked out. Or how about the GT kids
> just
> > mix in with everyone else and forget the label.
> In
> > the end, when they join the rest of us in the
> real
> > world they become one of us anyway. This is a
> > shocker to a lot of GT kids.
>
> Yeah, they join the real world, as your boss.
>
> Sorry, but those kids will never be in your 'real
> world'.



Sure they are. It is hard to face reality. But of course that is foreign to you, because this is your reality and you have no clue who is really on here. But thanks for playing.

Stat Man Wrote:
> I believe that Forum Reader and others may have
> asked about the new capacity report. The report
> is attached to the staff report on the
> Coppermine/Laurel Hill boundary study that will be
> addressed on July 24. It appears that some of the
> numbers are quite different from those presented
> in the last CIP.
>
>-
Thanks again.

CIP schedule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will have to go over the CIP to refresh my
> memory on what school has actually been funded.
> My understanding is that FCPS asks for money via
> bond referendums evry 2 years-about $300 million
> or so. The taxpayer foolishly agrees to give
> these ninconpoops a blank check. The problem is
> that they are limited to $155 million per year in
> debt accumulation so that FCPS keeps their AAA
> bond rating. So basically, money that is approved
> by taxpayers in say 2007-08 may not be actually
> "spent" until 5 years or so.
>
> This is why they keep having to get more money for
> a project because they don't complete it for 3-4
> years and the costs jump 30-40 percent.
>
> FCPS School Board is supposed to allow all the
> schools currently in line to stay there but they
> are adding new schools (like WSHS) to the list.
> Who knows what they are going to do. Bradsher has
> no respect for the cue and is constantly trying to
> get her schools money-namely SOCO and WSHS.
>
> TJ should be ok given their national prestige, it
> is Marshall that might get screwed.
>
> The process is disorderly right now and as the
> money gets tighter-which it will-it will certainly
> get uglier.

Marshall was built in 1962, as was Edison. TJ was built in 1964 and West Springfield was built in 1966. I have no idea whether the new SoCo middle school will end up leapfrogging over the four high schools, but I think the Board would have a real fight on its hands if it gave West Springfield or TJ priority over the other two schools.

If it did - which remains to be seen - I would hope that, if CAPS were still around, it would support those challenging that decision. Up until then, it seems a bit much to expect CAPS to lead the charge. A fancy name does not the Ford Foundation make.

And, frankly, without others taking the lead, SoCo doesn't seem like an obvious issue for CAPS to embrace. I could certainly see the group focusing on wasteful expenditures at the FCPS non-teacher staff level. But CAPS's base is in the western part of the county, and where were the last middle and high schools built before SoCo? Hint - Westfield (2000), Liberty (2002) and Carson (1998). Were all the empty seats elsewhere in the county filled before these schools were built?

SBS is an idiot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You need a lesson in Business 101 pal.
>
> You don't open a restaurant and then wait to offer
> food later or carry 3 items on the menu-noone will
> walk thru the door.
>
> CAPS has to "sell themselves" to the community and
> they are doing a lousy job thus far. That's why
> only Madison Island people showed up at the
> courthouse-only a small group has a vested
> interest in the West County boundary war.
>
> Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling
> you the way it is. Unless CAPS starts presenting
> themselves as a broad parent advocacy group or as
> a watchdog against the FCPS bullies, aint nobody
> going to care if they survive.
>
> People will join CAPS in masses as soon as they
> start appealing to other parents' concerns instead
> of their own self-interest.
>
> Why should I or anyone else write a $500 check so
> that your kid can go to Madison instead of South
> Lakes?

Hate to break it to you, jackass, but CAPS is not a business. CAPS started with a small group of people having similar concerns over a specific issue. The only way CAPS will expand is for other groups with similar concerns to be willing to put forth some of their time and effort, just like the ones who started CAPS. Whether they join CAPS or create their own organization is up to them. The main reason CAPS has solicited donations was to cover the cost of the lawsuit. Now that that is under the bridge, they would much rather have your and your neighbor's time than your money.

I was also at the hearing, and I am not a Madison parent. You should stop showing your ignorance. But hey, that's what you're good at, spouting off on this website instead of doing anything useful to possibly help improve the school system.

Madison Is Not an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CIP schedule Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I will have to go over the CIP to refresh my
> > memory on what school has actually been funded.
>
> > My understanding is that FCPS asks for money
> via
> > bond referendums evry 2 years-about $300
> million
> > or so. The taxpayer foolishly agrees to give
> > these ninconpoops a blank check. The problem
> is
> > that they are limited to $155 million per year
> in
> > debt accumulation so that FCPS keeps their AAA
> > bond rating. So basically, money that is
> approved
> > by taxpayers in say 2007-08 may not be actually
> > "spent" until 5 years or so.
> >
> > This is why they keep having to get more money
> for
> > a project because they don't complete it for
> 3-4
> > years and the costs jump 30-40 percent.
> >
> > FCPS School Board is supposed to allow all the
> > schools currently in line to stay there but
> they
> > are adding new schools (like WSHS) to the list.
>
> > Who knows what they are going to do. Bradsher
> has
> > no respect for the cue and is constantly trying
> to
> > get her schools money-namely SOCO and WSHS.
> >
> > TJ should be ok given their national prestige,
> it
> > is Marshall that might get screwed.
> >
> > The process is disorderly right now and as the
> > money gets tighter-which it will-it will
> certainly
> > get uglier.
>
> Marshall was built in 1962, as was Edison. TJ was
> built in 1964 and West Springfield was built in
> 1966. I have no idea whether the new SoCo middle
> school will end up leapfrogging over the four high
> schools, but I think the Board would have a real
> fight on its hands if it gave West Springfield or
> TJ priority over the other two schools.
>
> If it did - which remains to be seen - I would
> hope that, if CAPS were still around, it would
> support those challenging that decision. Up until
> then, it seems a bit much to expect CAPS to lead
> the charge. A fancy name does not the Ford
> Foundation make.
>
> And, frankly, without others taking the lead, SoCo
> doesn't seem like an obvious issue for CAPS to
> embrace. I could certainly see the group focusing
> on wasteful expenditures at the FCPS non-teacher
> staff level. But CAPS's base is in the western
> part of the county, and where were the last middle
> and high schools built before SoCo? Hint -
> Westfield (2000), Liberty (2002) and Carson
> (1998). Were all the empty seats elsewhere in the
> county filled before these schools were built?


look at Coppermine on board docs. It is built with 200 empty seats in the 5 schools mentioned. For years the West has had their way.

Truthteller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> look at Coppermine on board docs. It is built
> with 200 empty seats in the 5 schools mentioned.
> For years the West has had their way.

Not sure I follow as I understood there are plenty of people in the western part of the county who aren't pushing for Coppermine to be built and don't want to be redistricted there. But I will leave that to you and others to hash out.

My only point was that CAPS is a small group with limited resources and the SoCo middle school doesn't seem like the most obvious charge for them to champion at the moment assuming those involved with the group had the time and the inclination to push forward with other issues.

Old Timer Wrote:
> These groups are flexible in that if a student is
> showing great progress they will move up to the
> next group; conversely, if they are struggling
> with the material, they move down.

I remember that! We had reading groups: the Turtles and the Roadrunners (and something in between). Of course, you couldn't do that nowadays, because putting someone in the Turtles might hurt their self-esteem, causing them to sue the school district for seven figures.

(OK, enough cynicism for one night)

Truthteller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Madison Is Not an Island Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CIP schedule Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I will have to go over the CIP to refresh my
> > > memory on what school has actually been
> funded.
> >
> > > My understanding is that FCPS asks for money
> > via
> > > bond referendums evry 2 years-about $300
> > million
> > > or so. The taxpayer foolishly agrees to give
> > > these ninconpoops a blank check. The problem
> > is
> > > that they are limited to $155 million per
> year
> > in
> > > debt accumulation so that FCPS keeps their
> AAA
> > > bond rating. So basically, money that is
> > approved
> > > by taxpayers in say 2007-08 may not be
> actually
> > > "spent" until 5 years or so.
> > >
> > > This is why they keep having to get more
> money
> > for
> > > a project because they don't complete it for
> > 3-4
> > > years and the costs jump 30-40 percent.
> > >
> > > FCPS School Board is supposed to allow all
> the
> > > schools currently in line to stay there but
> > they
> > > are adding new schools (like WSHS) to the
> list.
> >
> > > Who knows what they are going to do.
> Bradsher
> > has
> > > no respect for the cue and is constantly
> trying
> > to
> > > get her schools money-namely SOCO and WSHS.
> > >
> > > TJ should be ok given their national
> prestige,
> > it
> > > is Marshall that might get screwed.
> > >
> > > The process is disorderly right now and as
> the
> > > money gets tighter-which it will-it will
> > certainly
> > > get uglier.
> >
> > Marshall was built in 1962, as was Edison. TJ
> was
> > built in 1964 and West Springfield was built in
> > 1966. I have no idea whether the new SoCo
> middle
> > school will end up leapfrogging over the four
> high
> > schools, but I think the Board would have a
> real
> > fight on its hands if it gave West Springfield
> or
> > TJ priority over the other two schools.
> >
> > If it did - which remains to be seen - I would
> > hope that, if CAPS were still around, it would
> > support those challenging that decision. Up
> until
> > then, it seems a bit much to expect CAPS to
> lead
> > the charge. A fancy name does not the Ford
> > Foundation make.
> >
> > And, frankly, without others taking the lead,
> SoCo
> > doesn't seem like an obvious issue for CAPS to
> > embrace. I could certainly see the group
> focusing
> > on wasteful expenditures at the FCPS
> non-teacher
> > staff level. But CAPS's base is in the western
> > part of the county, and where were the last
> middle
> > and high schools built before SoCo? Hint -
> > Westfield (2000), Liberty (2002) and Carson
> > (1998). Were all the empty seats elsewhere in
> the
> > county filled before these schools were built?
>
>
> look at Coppermine on board docs. It is built
> with 200 empty seats in the 5 schools mentioned.
> For years the West has had their way.


I asked this once before and don't recall an answer but will you please provide the names of the 5 schools with the 200 empty seats and which school has how many empty seats?
Thanks.

Madison Is Not an Island. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > -----
> > Thank you for a good post. I agree with part,
> > disagree with a little, and obtained some new
> food
> > for thought.
> >
> > I agree schools should not be redistricted to
> hide
> > performance problems. Redistricting should have
> > only one purpose: to move students from
> > overcrowded (or closing) schools to nearby (or
> > new) schools that have space.
> >
> > Middle schools have a second redistricting
> > justification: contiguous boundaries for middle
> > and high schools have many advantages including
> > "vertical teaming" between middle and high
> school
> > teachers, offering the same foreign languages
> as
> > are taught in the high school, being able to
> bus
> > students together, and developing community
> > spirit. Students who plan to pupil place or
> > otherwise attend an IB high school should be
> able
> > to attend that high school's affiliated middle
> > school; same for future AP students.
>
> I am largely in agreement with both of you,
> although I cannot resist the urge to point out
> that, if a redistricting is otherwise justified
> for capacity reasons, it would be a good thing to
> eliminate attendance islands that should not be
> grandfathered and serve as a visible reminder of
> past decisions that do not pass the smell test.
>
> I would also note that there is a difference
> betweeen a county or region-wide study and a
> county or region-wide redistricting. One could
> understake a broad study and still determine at
> the end that only a limited number of changes were
> actually warranted. As the recent RD illustrates,
> studies that are narrow in scope from their
> inception are likely to be perceived as
> artificially constrained and designed to produce a
> pre-ordained result.


I have to disagree

The political process was so distorted in the recent RD that a claim of capacity imbalances needs substantial justification before RD is used as the tool

In the case of the recent RD, the underlying issue was clearly the disastrously poor performance at Hughes and South Lakes. Facilities was the chosen trojan.

In any case where performance is the underlying issue, there will always be the opportunity to manufacture a facilities excuse. If you can't dream one up, you're not trying.

Why was a programmatic or performance solution not even considered at SL and Hughes? A couple of years of fixed performance would have had people banging on the shiny new doors at South Lakes - but the board didn't have the balls to actually face up to the issue.

The board has shown that it fundamentally cannot be trusted with RDs.

There must be a fundamental check and balance

NO NEIGHBORHOOD SHOULD BE FORCIBLY REDISTRICTED TO A POORER PERFORMING SCHOOL AGAINST ITS WILL.

[it takes away the incentives to improve from the school, hurts families and communities who have helped to build successful schools and hides underlying problems]

That's what was always planned in the RD and not surprisingly that's what happened

The process was manipulated to scare thousands of parents so that as the game played out, they'd happily throw their neighbors under the bus - my room at one of the public meeting was chock full of Herndon residents who were quite clear about their game plan

Why did Herdon and South Lakes get to decide that Madison North should be thrown under the bus?

The whole island issue was a political invention so that the shuffling didn't appear to all be to the south of south lakes whilst protecting the farthest reaches of Langley gang. It helped no-one except the politicians - most of the land had no houses on it and is not likely to have any houses on it for many years. All it did was screw with a set of families who were no problem to anyone and provide political smoke for Stu and Janie.

The whole thing was a back-room stitch-up to a kind even Chicago would have cringed at.

The problem with big studies is that they give even more scope for jiggery-pockery and the ability to leverage big groups to throw small groups under the bus.

If you think that the board would use a sophisticated constraint optimization technique to maximize the overall academic performance of the school system - you're very much mistaken. They'd gerrymander the hell out of it and ensure that their buddies and donors were looked after and to hell with you, me and our kids.

The advantage of small studies is that you can look at them and see clearly when the emperor has no clothes.

At the end of the day you have to go back and ask why the communities affected have no say.

I wouldn't trust the board to sort my laundry let alone adjust boundaries fairly.

Tistadt is right - a large scale study would be a disaster for the county and its schools.

There should be a moratorium on RDs until the board rebuilds the trust that it destroyed which will take at least an election

Board docs. Work Session 7/14. 2:30 Facilities. 6.02 Discussion on Scope. 1st attachment. Page 2. Graph 1/2 way down. Compare column 2 to 3.

This is why they can't define purpose or scope objectively. Another round of social engineering coming our way.

agree with everything - Stockholm Syndrome?

What should work with these "insiders" is squadrons of tysons-merrifield area taxpayers showing up at random work sessions by rescheduling lunch, etc. Exxon - Innova lunch at Gatehouse? They seem to meet with some citizens assoc groups and dale's community advisory or whatever that thing is called. Static organizations with how much real input?

Imagine. SoCo financing is perplexing and unknown to the public. They keep revoting on it to match the circumstances. perhaps they can legally syphon off some voter approved bond money from other projects plus divert operating funds gained by property tax increases across the county. They had talkd about a scheme of borrowing money to pay interest on interest or anticipated interest. Whatever it was to even suggest it was absurd. 7-14 work session has a minimum projected deficit of over 150 million.

fat, fat and more fat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mary Ellen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Attend a FCSB work session at the Gatehouse.
> The
> > room is packed with administrative staff who
> are
> > there to support the one adminstrative staff
> > presenting to the board. At one work session,
> > there were 23 people in suits and with laptops
> or
> > a blackberry who appeared to be there in
> support
> > of the one administrative staff person who was
> > presenting. She finished her 45 minute
> > presentation, the room emptied. Before someone
> > jumps on my statement, I did not query each
> > person, I am just reporting an observation. It
> is
> > quite possible all these people were interested
> in
> > the topic or they just wanted to skip working.
> >
> > While a lower grade teacher is lucky if he/she
> has
> > an assistant to help with 25 to 30 kids, the
> > administrator appeared to have a support team
> of
> > 20 plus people.
> >
> > Our tax dollars at work. Be brave and show up
> at
> > a FCSB work session.
> >
> > Another point of interest, the parking garage
> at
> > Gatehouse empties between 3:30 and 4:30.
> Observe
> > the administrative staff leaving....they don't
> > have big tote bags that are crammed with papers
> to
> > correct, lesson plans, etc. They stroll out
> empty
> > handed.
> >
> > I am willing to take the lumps if someone has a
> > different perception that all administrative
> staff
> > are cruicial and they need another Gatehouse
> > building.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> This description of the SB work session is
> angering. Aren't these people busy with other
> projects? I do presentations to clients regarding
> millions of dollars and I GO BY MYSELF!!!! It is
> called "being prepared" and "doing your homework".
> I wish these meetings were not in the middle of
> the day-otherwise I would go.
>
> I am anxious to sit in on a MSAOC meeting. I dn't
> understand what the hell they are doing. They
> DRAFTED a drop out report last August and it is
> just gathering dust. As if drop outs are not an
> important topic for the SB to discuss.
>
> Everyone needs to send emails protesting Gatehouse
> II-it is a waste of money and the schools need the
> funds so much more.

Stat Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe that Forum Reader and others may have
> asked about the new capacity report. The report
> is attached to the staff report on the
> Coppermine/Laurel Hill boundary study that will be
> addressed on July 24. It appears that some of the
> numbers are quite different from those presented
> in the last CIP.
>
Stat Man, please feel free to check my numbers, but according to these new numbers, it appears that in 2012 FCPS is now projecting 1,786 EMPTY seats in elementary schools (even NOT counting Coppermine or any other new construction), 1,146 EMPTY seats in middle schools, and 4,224 EMPTY seats in high schools.

{Does anyone have a copy of the methodology used to calculate the new capacity numbers?}

HOWEVER, these numbers include 5,955 seats in "modulars" at elementary schools, 500 "modular" seats in high schools, and 896 "modular" seats in high schools.

Here are the old and new capacity numbers for high schools and middle schools:

School - Old capacity - new capacity
Annandale H.S. 2,350 2,134
Centreville H.S. 2,325 1,995
Chantilly H.S. 2,625 2,131
Edison H.S. 1,675 1,800
Fairfax H.S. 2,200 2,416
Falls Church H.S. 2,000 1,946
Hayfield H.S. 2,125 2,180
Herndon H.S. 2,225 2,084
Lake Braddock H.S. 2,725 3,079
Langley H.S. 1850/2100 1,925
Lee H.S. 1,850 2,111
Madison H.S. 1,875 2,016
Marshall H.S. 1,500 1,490
McLean H.S. 1,725 1,969
Mount Vernon H.S. 2,550 2,279
Oakton H.S. 2,325 2,192
Robinson H.S. 2,825 2,264
South County H.S. 1,700 1,857
South Lakes H.S. 2150/2100 2,250
Stuart H.S. 1,650 1,942
TJHSST 1,600 1,700
West Potomac H.S 2,200 2,081
West Springfield H.S. 2,225 2,107
Westfield H.S. 3,100 2,823
Woodson H.S. 1,950 2,280

Carson M.S. 1,250 1,208
Cooper M.S. 1,100 750
Franklin M.S. 1,050 960
Frost M.S. 925 883
Glasgow M.S. 1630/1500 1,500
Hayfield M.S. 1,100 1,050
Herndon M.S. 1,100 1,108
Holmes M.S. 950 1,125
Hughes M.S. 975 1,000
Irving M.S. 1,100 1,017
Jackson M.S. 1,215 1,125
Key M.S. 875 1,000
Kilmer M.S. 850 1,019
Lake Braddock M.S. 1,350 1,292
Lanier M.S. 1,125 1,125
Liberty M.S. 1,250 1,154
Longfellow M.S. 1,115 565
South County M.S. 800 711
Poe M.S. 1,150 1,125
Robinson M.S. 1,275 1,244
Rocky Run M.S. 975 898
Sandburg M.S. 1,400 1,375
Stone M.S. 1,075 1,000
Thoreau M.S. 725 750
Twain M.S. 1,025 875
Whitman M.S. 1,000 896

Go taxpayer.

I would say that 99.9% of voters just touch YES for more school bonds.

I will never vote for another school bond unless I know exactly how the funds will be used. I will not support one nickle going toward buying another building to house more people who are called ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF. I am sure there are some good staff, but I have lost faith in the process and in the administrative staff that I have see operating most recently.

Take a break and attend a work session. Forget trying to gather meaningful information from the recorded minutes.

There is a School Board retreat this weekend. According to the Board website, the location is not for "fun and games." What is the cost for the consultants?


taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> agree with everything - Stockholm Syndrome?
>
> What should work with these "insiders" is
> squadrons of tysons-merrifield area taxpayers
> showing up at random work sessions by rescheduling
> lunch, etc. Exxon - Innova lunch at Gatehouse?
> They seem to meet with some citizens assoc groups
> and dale's community advisory or whatever that
> thing is called. Static organizations with how
> much real input?
>
> Imagine. SoCo financing is perplexing and unknown
> to the public. They keep revoting on it to match
> the circumstances. perhaps they can legally
> syphon off some voter approved bond money from
> other projects plus divert operating funds gained
> by property tax increases across the county. They
> had talkd about a scheme of borrowing money to pay
> interest on interest or anticipated interest.
> Whatever it was to even suggest it was absurd.
> 7-14 work session has a minimum projected deficit
> of over 150 million.
>
> fat, fat and more fat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Mary Ellen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Attend a FCSB work session at the Gatehouse.
> > The
> > > room is packed with administrative staff who
> > are
> > > there to support the one adminstrative staff
> > > presenting to the board. At one work
> session,
> > > there were 23 people in suits and with
> laptops
> > or
> > > a blackberry who appeared to be there in
> > support
> > > of the one administrative staff person who
> was
> > > presenting. She finished her 45 minute
> > > presentation, the room emptied. Before
> someone
> > > jumps on my statement, I did not query each
> > > person, I am just reporting an observation.
> It
> > is
> > > quite possible all these people were
> interested
> > in
> > > the topic or they just wanted to skip working.
>
> > >
> > > While a lower grade teacher is lucky if
> he/she
> > has
> > > an assistant to help with 25 to 30 kids, the
> > > administrator appeared to have a support team
> > of
> > > 20 plus people.
> > >
> > > Our tax dollars at work. Be brave and show
> up
> > at
> > > a FCSB work session.
> > >
> > > Another point of interest, the parking garage
> > at
> > > Gatehouse empties between 3:30 and 4:30.
> > Observe
> > > the administrative staff leaving....they
> don't
> > > have big tote bags that are crammed with
> papers
> > to
> > > correct, lesson plans, etc. They stroll out
> > empty
> > > handed.
> > >
> > > I am willing to take the lumps if someone has
> a
> > > different perception that all administrative
> > staff
> > > are cruicial and they need another Gatehouse
> > > building.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > This description of the SB work session is
> > angering. Aren't these people busy with other
> > projects? I do presentations to clients
> regarding
> > millions of dollars and I GO BY MYSELF!!!! It
> is
> > called "being prepared" and "doing your
> homework".
> > I wish these meetings were not in the middle
> of
> > the day-otherwise I would go.
> >
> > I am anxious to sit in on a MSAOC meeting. I
> dn't
> > understand what the hell they are doing. They
> > DRAFTED a drop out report last August and it is
> > just gathering dust. As if drop outs are not
> an
> > important topic for the SB to discuss.
> >
> > Everyone needs to send emails protesting
> Gatehouse
> > II-it is a waste of money and the schools need
> the
> > funds so much more.

The "new" numbers in my above post only count "building" space and do not include:
224 "modular" seats at Centreville
392 "modular" seats at Chantilly
280 "modular" seats at Robinson HS
250 "modular" seats at Cooper
250 "modular" seats at Longfellow

------------
Here are the "west county" high schools BEFORE the South Lakes redistricting but with the 2012 population projections and the NEW capacity numbers:
School - new capacity - 2012 projection - population balance
Chantilly (with mod) 2,523 - 2,603 - negative 80
Herndon 2,084 - 1,926 - 158 empty seats
Langley 1,925 - 2,050 - negative 125
Madison 2,016 - 1,981 - 35 empty seats
Marshall 1,490 - 1,429 - 61 empty seats
McLean 1,969 - 1,744 - 225 empty seats
South Lakes 2,250 - 1,350 - 900 empty seats
Westfield 2,823 - 2,910 - negative 87

Total 17,080 - 15,993 - 1,087 empty seats

[No, I have no idea how Westfield lost 277 seats in this new capacity study.]

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The "new" numbers in my above post only count
> "building" space and do not include:
> 224 "modular" seats at Centreville
> 392 "modular" seats at Chantilly
> 280 "modular" seats at Robinson HS
> 250 "modular" seats at Cooper
> 250 "modular" seats at Longfellow
>
> ------------
> Here are the "west county" high schools BEFORE the
> South Lakes redistricting but with the 2012
> population projections and the NEW capacity
> numbers:
> School - new capacity - 2012 projection -
> population balance
> Chantilly (with mod) 2,523 - 2,603 - negative 80
> Herndon 2,084 - 1,926 - 158 empty seats
> Langley 1,925 - 2,050 - negative 125
> Madison 2,016 - 1,981 - 35 empty seats
> Marshall 1,490 - 1,429 - 61 empty seats
> McLean 1,969 - 1,744 - 225 empty seats
> South Lakes 2,250 - 1,350 - 900 empty seats
> Westfield 2,823 - 2,910 - negative 87
>
> Total 17,080 - 15,993 - 1,087 empty seats
>
>
Isn't Oakton more of a "west county" school than McLean or Marshall?

Good catch - thanks again.

Here is the same chart with Oakton included: "west county" high schools BEFORE the South Lakes redistricting but with the 2012 population projections and the NEW capacity numbers:
School - new capacity - 2012 projection - population balance
Chantilly (with mod) 2,523 - 2,603 - negative 80
Herndon 2,084 - 1,926 - 158 empty seats
Langley 1,925 - 2,050 - negative 125
Madison 2,016 - 1,981 - 35 empty seats
Marshall 1,490 - 1,429 - 61 empty seats
McLean 1,969 - 1,744 - 225 empty seats
Oakton 2,192 - 2,245 - negative 53
South Lakes 2,250 - 1,350 - 900 empty seats
Westfield 2,823 - 2,910 - negative 87
Total 19,272 - 18,238 - 1,034 empty seats

School Activity Fund Frauds: An Accident Waiting to Happen

The following article appeared in the Washington Post on November 9, 2007 (Student Money Vanishes, but Few Are Punished Activity Funds Are Often Plundered and Mismanaged by Adults).

I have maintained for a long time that management of these funds was an accident waiting to happen. As an internal auditor for Fairfax County Public Schools I observed firsthand the types of abuses that occur regularly in school activity funds. Despite reporting mechanisms such as independent audits that show control weaknesses many of the abuses are repeated year after year. This is in large part due to who controls the funds, lack of effective policies and procedures, and an overall position that these are not material to the financial statements and therefore do not warrant attention.

Across the United States millions of dollars are collected each year for student activity funds. These funds are under the direct control of the principal of the school. While the funds may seem immaterial (from several hundred dollars up to hundreds of thousands of dollars) when you consider the amounts collected by school district the number easily reach millions of dollars a year.

Student activity money is collected from vending machines, sporting events, bake sales and other activities approved by the school principal.

The funds are supposed to be used to promote the general welfare, education and morale of students through activities such as field trips, school publications etc.

The funds are the responsibility of the school principal.

School districts are supposed to have policies and procedures covering the collection, safeguarding, and expenditure of school activity funds.

The funds should be audited each year by an independent accounting firm.

However the reality is that procedures for collection, safeguarding and dissemination are not always followed. Not all the money collected is recorded in the school's accounting system. Funds are not promptly deposited and are kept in insecure locations (unlocked desks) or safes with access by multiple personnel. Funds are spent for purposes other than the benefit of students. School principals routinely give the responsibility for oversight of the funds to individuals not properly trained. Due to lack of internal resources (such as internal auditors) funds are not audited on a regular basis. Additionally the school districts external auditors may not even be aware of the funds available and therefore do not look at whether appropriate internal controls are in place.

While at Fairfax County Public Schools I reviewed reports issued by an external auditor hired on a contract basis to review the school activity funds. The control weaknesses identified by the external auditor occurred year after year without little if any changes. In addition eventhough the State Education Department mandated that EVERY SCHOOL ACTIVITY FUND BE AUDITED EVERY YEAR, there was no requirement that the State Education Department be provided with a copy of the report. The cost to the County was over $250,000 and was borne by the taxpayers rather than being paid for by the Student Activity funds (over $40 million dollars collected).

There needs to be greater oversight by school officials including internal auditors. There should be minimum standards for individuals responsible for student activity funds. Additionally when problems are identified prompt action needs to be taken. The cost of independent audits or audit oversight for these activity funds should be be funded by proceeds collected.

There are many public school districts where the internal audit department has responbility for auditing school activity funds. Unfortunately many of those same public school districts do not adequately fund internal audit functions to maintain effective oversight of internal controls for student activity funds or other school district operations.

What happened in the District of Columbia should be a wake up call for public school districts across the United States.

by Jim Kaplan

FCPS has some on-line audit reports. A notorious audit report on Kent gardens in Mclean is no longer on-line.

Years of slop including the words trips to reno, unauthorized microsoft stock. A pet school of Strauss.

"In 1997 one of the auditors sent a letter to the Area Superintendent citing continued problems “…more than are usually found in an elementary school.” The auditor further stated that “Most of the problems…should not exist when the principal and finance secretary have been in the system for many years.” RFCA cited Kent Gardens Elementary School for procedural problems beginning in FY 2000 including opening unauthorized bank accounts, no supporting documentation for expenditures, travel expenditures from the PTA donations account for trips to New Orleans, Reno, Boston and France, unauthorized retail brokerage account holding shares of Microsoft stock, purchases not supported by purchased orders."

Another pet school, Langley, had administrators that knowingly allowed illegal dumping on a large scale. The cost to ameliorate is to be born by taxpayers with NO repercussions in collusion with the county.

Apparently it will come out of the addition slush fund - via the bond money or operating fund money. Cost about 115,000. Also getting a new softball field dugout for 80,000.

Why does Bryant alternative school have almost 300,000 in football field lights? That should be paid for by youth leagues that USE the field- not taxpayer money going to schools.

Taxpayer-
Why aren't you all over Coppermine ES being built?

Re: high school redistricting
Posted by: Forum Reader (IP Logged)
Date: July 17, 2008 11:27PM


Stat Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe that Forum Reader and others may have
> asked about the new capacity report. The report
> is attached to the staff report on the
> Coppermine/Laurel Hill boundary study that will be
> addressed on July 24. It appears that some of the
> numbers are quite different from those presented
> in the last CIP.
>
Stat Man, please feel free to check my numbers, but according to these new numbers, it appears that in 2012 FCPS is now projecting 1,786 EMPTY seats in elementary schools (even NOT counting Coppermine or any other new construction), 1,146 EMPTY seats in middle schools, and 4,224 EMPTY seats in high schools.

{Does anyone have a copy of the methodology used to calculate the new capacity numbers?}

HOWEVER, these numbers include 5,955 seats in "modulars" at elementary schools, 500 "modular" seats in high schools, and 896 "modular" seats in high schools.

Here are the old and new capacity numbers for high schools and middle schools:

___________________

Methodology is on board docs from previous work session and is pretty sound. Complete report will be out in Fall.

Projections will be updated to account for new inflows so you should wait until Fall before comparing the two as 2012 projections will look markedly differant

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re: high school redistricting
> Posted by: Forum Reader (IP Logged)
> Date: July 17, 2008 11:27PM
>
>
> {Does anyone have a copy of the methodology used
> to calculate the new capacity numbers?}
>
> Methodology is on board docs from previous work
> session and is pretty sound. Complete report will
> be out in Fall.
>
> Projections will be updated to account for new
> inflows so you should wait until Fall before
> comparing the two as 2012 projections will look
> markedly differant

It's nice that you take pride in the staff's work, but these numbers are quite different from anything set forth in the prior CIPs, not to mention last year's boundary study.

Did it ever occur to the Staff or the School Board that they should not be making boundary decisions based on purported capacity issues if they had any expectation that a new study might produce such different numbers?

Guess not...

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anonymous Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Re: high school redistricting
> > Posted by: Forum Reader (IP Logged)
> > Date: July 17, 2008 11:27PM
> >
> >
> > {Does anyone have a copy of the methodology
> used
> > to calculate the new capacity numbers?}
> >
> > Methodology is on board docs from previous work
> > session and is pretty sound. Complete report
> will
> > be out in Fall.
> >
> > Projections will be updated to account for new
> > inflows so you should wait until Fall before
> > comparing the two as 2012 projections will look
> > markedly differant
>
> It's nice that you take pride in the staff's work,
> but these numbers are quite different from
> anything set forth in the prior CIPs, not to
> mention last year's boundary study.
>
> Did it ever occur to the Staff or the School Board
> that they should not be making boundary decisions
> based on purported capacity issues if they had any
> expectation that a new study might produce such
> different numbers?
>
> Guess not...


Never said I take pride in staffs work. I said their capacity methodology is sound. Much better than the consultant hired to do the same work attached on the same board docs schedule.

Not only should they have considered this work, but also should have updated enrollment based on inflows and outflows this year of students. look at the flow into and out of the pyramids in the boundary study last year
http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/membership/membership_2007_2008/june/index.html

Good luck trying to make sense of those "capacity calculations". It looks like a bunch of mumbojumbo to me.

I think they work backwards. They decide what number they want to come up with first and then create the formulas to decide what will create that magic number.

The bottom line is there just isn't any money to build new schools right now. If you have to put 13 instead of 12 into a SPED classroom then just make the best of it. I get so tired of the whiners about overcrowding.

We have plenty of excess capacity at our schools-we need to be more efficient.

Why? Wrote:
> Why aren't you all over Coppermine ES being built?
--------------
Data from the new capacity study:
Schools recommended for inclusion in the Coppermine ES boundary study, with "old" and "new" capacity WITHOUT MODULARS:
Floris 768 / 832
Herndon 878 / 612
Hutchison 866 / 850
McNair 858 / 630
Oak Hill 844 / 658
Total 4214 / 3582

Schools considered but NOT included in the Coppermine ES boundary study, with "old" and "new" capacity:
Clearview 576 / 690
Crossfield 855 / 856
Dogwood 602 / 745
Dranesville 739 / 764
Fox Mill 659 / 636
Lees Corner 606 / 723
Total 4037 / 4414

---------
Modulars add decent classroom space, but they do not add library, gym, or cafeteria space and are generally not considered to be a permanent solution to elementary school overcrowding. However, here are the "new" capacity numbers WITH modulars:
Floris 832
Herndon 864 (includes mod of 252, a 29% increase)
Hutchison 850
McNair 910 (includes mod of 280, a 31% increase)
Oak Hill 826 (includes mod of 168, a 20% increase)
Clearview 690
Crossfield 856
Dogwood 745
Dranesville 764
Fox Mill 636
Lees Corner 723
Total 8696 (including 700 modular seats)

-----------------

WITHOUT the modulars, here are the projected capacity balances for 2012 for the five schools being considered:
Floris -274
Herndon -109
Hutchison 220
McNair -526
Oak Hill -256
Total: overcrowded by 945; THIS IS A JUSTIFICATION FOR COPPERMINE.

Here are the projected capacity balances for 2012 for the other schools NOT included in the Coppermine ES boundary study:
Clearview 83
Crossfield -2
Dogwood 142
Dranesville 95
Fox Mill -85
Lees Corner 45
Total: 278 empty seats

Why? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taxpayer-
> Why aren't you all over Coppermine ES being built?

Because Tisdadt did not add all the schools in the Northwest quadrant of Fairfax County and the big trailers with bathrooms [modulars] have a shorter useful lfe than bricks and mortar buildings. Herndon elementary's holds 252 students and without it would be 100 over. Forestville 's has 140 and would be about 40 over. neighbor Great Falls is about -50. That 200 more students for an elementary domino.

A lot of houses in west Mclean, Route 7 corridor [Holly Knoll, Shouse, Colvin Glen, Lexington Estates, Riva Ridge, Carpers Farm, etc]have families whose children have aged out of K-12].

Plus that post was on audit type of stuff not attendance areas.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

CAPS may say they are interested in the education of all FCPS kids, but that is a ruse to gain more donations for their cause very, very specific and insignificant self-serving cause. To those who think CAPS should be against SOCO, you'd better take your blinders off. Using their logic, SOCO should be built so that middle and upper class families won't be forced into failing (their word for underperforming schools with a large percentage of students on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum) schools. If CAPS folks lived in SOCO, they would be screaming the for the school, all other taxpayers be damned.

good luck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good luck trying to make sense of those "capacity
> calculations". It looks like a bunch of mumbojumbo
> to me.
>
> I think they work backwards. They decide what
> number they want to come up with first and then
> create the formulas to decide what will create
> that magic number.
>
> The bottom line is there just isn't any money to
> build new schools right now. If you have to put
> 13 instead of 12 into a SPED classroom then just
> make the best of it. I get so tired of the
> whiners about overcrowding.
>
> We have plenty of excess capacity at our
> schools-we need to be more efficient.

If the Board really believes these numbers, does mean that a Langley-to-Herndon redistricting should be considered? Or, if "no justification"'s views carry the day, perhaps we should build yet another addition to Langley, since no one at a "higher performing school" should ever be redistricted to another "lower performing" school.

Based on the prior numbers, it had seemed to me quite reasonable to propose a modest Madison-to-Marshall redistricting to relieve projected overcrowding at Madison and fill empty spots at Marshall. However - surprise, surprise - the capacities of Madison and McLean have now been adjusted upward by significant amounts. The same holds true for some other schools like Woodson that previously had been identified as overcrowded.

These numbers - if they are to be believed - do suggest that Marshall could be closed. Consider what the adjusted enrollments would be if:

1. North of 123/West of Route 7 - Marshall to Madison

2. South of 123/East of Route 7 - Marshall to McLean (at least one of the McLean islands would no longer be an island).

3. South of 123/West of Route 7 - Marshall to Falls Church

4. West of Hunter Mill - Madison to South Lakes (alternatively, North of 123/West of Route 7 could be assigned to South Lakes, although that would require many students who live closer to both Madison and Oakton than South Lakes to travel to Reston, while students closer to South Lakes than Madison continued to attend Madison).

If the Board acted on this promptly, it would save the funds to renovate Marshall, be positive to South Lakes and Falls Church, and neutral or positive to Madison. It would, however, be fascinating to watch Jane Strauss's reaction.

What a great post. I love it. So much common sense and imagine the money that could be raised for the school system with the sale of that property. Better yet, develop it into middle income housing - good for the neighborhood schools.

“Fear Allah and obey Him. Be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to Allah. Then every person shall be paid what he earned; and they shall not be dealt with unjustly” (Al-Baqarah 2: 281)

Major sins are indeed the cause for all misery, evil and torment in this world and the hereafter. And the worst of all sins are those that are greatest in harm and danger. Among the destructive major sins are backbiting and slandering. These two sins were forbidden by Allah through His Prophet because they sow enmity, evils and discord among people and lead to destruction. They make their perpetrator regret when regret will be of no avail. They cause hostilities between people of the same household and between neighbours and relatives. They can decrease in good deeds and increase in evil ones and lead to dishonour and ignominy.

Backbiting and slandering are shame and disgrace. Their perpetrator is detested and he shall not have a noble death. Allah forbids these acts in His Book when He says,

“O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion, in deeds some suspicions are sins. And spy not neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting). And fear Allah, verily, Allah is the one who accepts repentance, Most Merciful” (Al-Hujuraat 49: 12)

This verse strongly forbids backbiting for Allah likens the backbiter to one who eats the flesh of his dead brother. If he would hate eating the flesh of his brother, he should also hate to eat his flesh while he is alive by backbiting and slandering him.

When one reflects deeply over this assimilation it will be enough to keep one away from backbiting.

Abu Hurayrah narrated that the Prophet said, “Do you know what backbiting is?” They said, “Allah and His Messenger know best.” He then said, “It is to say something about your brother that he would dislike.” Someone asked him, “But what if what I say is true?” The Messenger of Allah said, “If what you say about him is true, you are backbiting him, but if it is not true then you have slandered him.” (Muslim)

Abu Bakr narrated that the Prophet said in Mina on the day of slaughtering (10th day of Dhul-Hijjah), “Verily, your blood, property and honour have become sacred to one another as the sacredness of this day of yours in this month of yours and in this city of yours. Indeed, have I conveyed the Message?” (Al-Bukharee and Muslim)

Therefore, guard your tongue, fellow Muslims, from this debasing sin, for whoever guards his tongue from sins and uses his limbs in acts of obedience to Allah has prospered. Sahl ibn Sa’d narrated that the Messenger of Allah said

“Who protects his tongue from unlawful utterances and his private parts from illegal sexual intercourse, I shall guarantee him entrance into Paradise.” (Bukharee and Muslim)

Abu Moosa Al-Ash’aree said, “I asked the Messenger of Allah: Who is the best Muslim? The Messenger of Allah replied, “He is the one from whom Muslims are safe from the evil of his tongue and hands.” (Muslim)

Dear Muslims! Beware of slipping of your tongues and do not give it free hand to wreak havoc on you. For free tongue destroys its owner and causes him calamities and evils.

Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudree narrated that the Messenger of Allah said, “When man wakes up in the morning each day, all parts of the body warn the tongue saying, ‘Fear Allah as regards us for we are at your mercy; if you are upright, we will be upright and if you are crooked, we become crooked.’” (At-Tirmidhee)

Mu’aadh ibn Jabal said, “I said: O Messenger of Allah tell me of a deed that will make me enter Paradise and keep me away from the Fire. The Prophet said, ‘You have asked of a great matter but it is easy for whosoever Allah makes it easy. You should worship Allah without associating anything with Him, perform Salaah, pay Zakaah (charity), fast during the month of Ramadaan and perform pilgrimage if you are able to.’ He said further, ‘Should I show you the gateways to good? Fasting is a shield (from evils), charity extinguishes sins as water extinguishes fire and praying in the middle of the night.’ He then recited this verse, ‘Their sides forsake their beds to invoke their Lord in fear and hope and they spend (charity in Allah’s cause) out of what We have bestowed them. No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.’ (As-Sajdah 32: 16-17) The Messenger of Allah then said, ‘Should I tell you the head of the matter, its pillar and its peak?’ I said: Yes O Messenger of Allah. He then said, ‘The head of the matter is Islam, its pillar is Salaah (prayer) and its peak is Jihaad in the way of Allah.’ He then asked, ‘Should I tell you of the foundation of all that?’ I said: Yes O Messenger of Allah. He then took hold of his tongue and said, ‘Hold back this.’ I said: O Messenger of Allah, are we going to be held responsible for what we utter? He said, ‘May your mother be bereaved of you[1] does anything cast people into the Fire on their faces except what their tongues have uttered?’” (At-Tirmdhee)

Anas narrated that the Messenger of Allah said, “When I was ascended to heaven, I passed by a people who had copper nails with which they scratched their faces and chests, and I said, ‘O Jibreel, who are these?’ He said, ‘These are those who used to eat other people’s flesh and attack their honour.’” (Abu Dawood)

Therefore do not treat the issue of backbiting with indifference because it is a great sin. Allah says, “ You considered it a little thing, while with Allah it was very great.” (An-Noor 24: 15)

Abu Bakr used to take hold of his tongue and say this is that which caused me destruction. He said this as a sign of humbleness.

Backbiting is so widespread that it has become the topic of people’s meetings and an avenue for expressing their anger, misgivings and jealousy with those who indulge in backbiting believing that they are hiding their own imperfections and harming others. They are oblivious of the fact that they are only harming themselves. This is because the backbiter if the wrongdoer and his victim is the wronged and on the Day of Resurrection both the wrongdoer and the wronged will stand before Allah Who is the Just Judge and the wronged will appeal to Allah to avenge the wrong done to him, Allah will then give this wronged person from the good deeds of the person who wronged him in accordance with his wrong by backbiting his brother on a Day that no father will give his son any of his good deeds nor a friend to his friend. All will be saying, ‘Myself, myself.’

The Messenger of Allah(SAW) said, “Usury has seventy something kinds, the smallest of which is for a man to have intercourse with his mother and the highest act of usury is for a Muslim to attack the honour of his Muslim brother.” He also said, “Whoever protects the honour of his brother, Allah will protect him from Hellfire on the Day of Resurrection.” (At-Tirmidhee)

So prevent the backbiter of affronting the honour of Muslims. Allah says, “O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah and fear Him and speak (always) the truth.” (Al-Ahzaab 33: 70)

Fellow Muslims! Fear Allah for whoever fears Allah, He protects him from torment and doubles reward for him. Allah says,

“And indeed We have created man and We know what his own self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our knowledge). (Remember) that the two receivers (recording angels) receive (each human being after he or she has attained the age of puberty), one sitting on the right and one on the left (to note his or her actions). Not a word does he or she utter, but there is a watcher by him (ready to record it.” (Qaaf 50: 16-18)

Brothers in Islam, gossiping about others is also another vicious type of backbiting. It means carrying tales from one people to another with the intention of sowing dissention among them. Allah condemned this deed when He said,

“And obey not everyone who swears much, and is considered worthless. A slanderer going about with calumnies.” (Al-Qalam 68: 10-11)

The Prophet(SAW) said, “The gossiper will not enter Paradise.”

Fear Allah therefore, dear brothers, and call yourselves to account before you are called to account and weigh your own deeds before they are weighed for you.

Be aware also dear Muslims, that the Ulamaa have explained that it is allowed for the wronged to inform the authorities of the wrong done to him as it is allowed for the person who sees vice to inform those who are capable of removing it and prevent its perpetrator from committing further vice. It is also allowed for the one seeking for religious decision to mention the wrong done to him to the knowledgeable man from whom he is seeking a decision in order to make things clear for him. It is also permissible for you to tell whoever seeks your advice on a person of something about him. It is not allowed for you to hide what you know about him so that he will not be deceived. All these types of speaking about others are lawful.

Anonymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not So Obvious Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Anonymous Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Re: high school redistricting
> > > Posted by: Forum Reader (IP Logged)
> > > Date: July 17, 2008 11:27PM
> > >
> > >
> > > {Does anyone have a copy of the methodology
> > used
> > > to calculate the new capacity numbers?}
> > >
> > > Methodology is on board docs from previous
> work
> > > session and is pretty sound. Complete report
> > will
> > > be out in Fall.
> > >
> > > Projections will be updated to account for
> new
> > > inflows so you should wait until Fall before
> > > comparing the two as 2012 projections will
> look
> > > markedly differant
> >
> > It's nice that you take pride in the staff's
> work,
> > but these numbers are quite different from
> > anything set forth in the prior CIPs, not to
> > mention last year's boundary study.
> >
> > Did it ever occur to the Staff or the School
> Board
> > that they should not be making boundary
> decisions
> > based on purported capacity issues if they had
> any
> > expectation that a new study might produce such
> > different numbers?
> >
> > Guess not...
>
>
> Never said I take pride in staffs work. I said
> their capacity methodology is sound. Much better
> than the consultant hired to do the same work
> attached on the same board docs schedule.
>
> Not only should they have considered this work,
> but also should have updated enrollment based on
> inflows and outflows this year of students. look
> at the flow into and out of the pyramids in the
> boundary study last year
> http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/membership/membershi
> p_2007_2008/june/index.html


Thanks for the link-interesting read.

At the end of 2007-08 we had a net increase of 912 students. Thanks goodness all those kids are dropping out of high school to keep the numbers down-high schools saw a decrease of 689 students. That is an increase over prior years-last year there was an increase of 247 students.

I recommend that everyone look at the individual high school data. When you see enrollment dropping in April/May/June those are the kids dropping out. It is kinda sad. Centreville HS surprised me with a high number of 74. TJ lost 12 students.

Definitely take a look at the numbers.

CAPS Hypocrisy Wrote:
> [snip] To those who
> think CAPS should be against SOCO, you'd better
> take your blinders off. Using their logic, SOCO
> should be built so that middle and upper class
> families won't be forced into failing (their word
> for underperforming schools with a large
> percentage of students on the lower end of the
> socioeconomic spectrum) schools.

1. The line that CAPS is against "students on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum" was used up long ago, but you get a pass this time because you did not label those who disagree with you as "racists."

2. The situation in SOCO is different from South Lakes because:
a. Lake Braddock, Hayfield, and SOCO are all AP schools.
b. No one is claiming a school "needs" more students so the school can somehow improve.
c. No one is claiming schools have "too many" students so that it is too hard to make the cheer squad, etc.
d. Students are overcrowding SOCO only because the School Board put too many kids there in the first place. They should just draw the boundaries the way they should have been drawn in the first place, and RESTORE some neighborhoods to the schools to which they were assigned in 2005. The new numbers show Lake Braddock (grades 7-12) will have 900 empty seats; Hayfield (grades 7-12) will have 137; Lee/Key pyramid will have 616.
e. This is a matter of saving us all money by not building a new school. SOCO (grades 7-12) is only projected to be overcrowded by 248 students in 2012. It is not worth building an entire new middle school when SOCO has an average of only 41 extra students per grade.

No Madison Is an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> good luck Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Good luck trying to make sense of those
> "capacity
> > calculations". It looks like a bunch of
> mumbojumbo
> > to me.
> >
> > I think they work backwards. They decide what
> > number they want to come up with first and then
> > create the formulas to decide what will create
> > that magic number.
> >
> > The bottom line is there just isn't any money
> to
> > build new schools right now. If you have to
> put
> > 13 instead of 12 into a SPED classroom then
> just
> > make the best of it. I get so tired of the
> > whiners about overcrowding.
> >
> > We have plenty of excess capacity at our
> > schools-we need to be more efficient.
>
> If the Board really believes these numbers, does
> mean that a Langley-to-Herndon redistricting
> should be considered? Or, if "no justification"'s
> views carry the day, perhaps we should build yet
> another addition to Langley, since no one at a
> "higher performing school" should ever be
> redistricted to another "lower performing" school.
>
>
> Based on the prior numbers, it had seemed to me
> quite reasonable to propose a modest
> Madison-to-Marshall redistricting to relieve
> projected overcrowding at Madison and fill empty
> spots at Marshall. However - surprise, surprise -
> the capacities of Madison and McLean have now been
> adjusted upward by significant amounts. The same
> holds true for some other schools like Woodson
> that previously had been identified as
> overcrowded.
>
> These numbers - if they are to be believed - do
> suggest that Marshall could be closed. Consider
> what the adjusted enrollments would be if:
>
> 1. North of 123/West of Route 7 - Marshall to
> Madison
>
> 2. South of 123/East of Route 7 - Marshall to
> McLean (at least one of the McLean islands would
> no longer be an island).
>
> 3. South of 123/West of Route 7 - Marshall to
> Falls Church
>
> 4. West of Hunter Mill - Madison to South Lakes
> (alternatively, North of 123/West of Route 7 could
> be assigned to South Lakes, although that would
> require many students who live closer to both
> Madison and Oakton than South Lakes to travel to
> Reston, while students closer to South Lakes than
> Madison continued to attend Madison).
>
> If the Board acted on this promptly, it would save
> the funds to renovate Marshall, be positive to
> South Lakes and Falls Church, and neutral or
> positive to Madison. It would, however, be
> fascinating to watch Jane Strauss's reaction.



Rt 7 runs east to west, so how do you get "East or West of Route 7"

I do not speak for CAPS but ... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. The line that CAPS is against "students on the
> lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum" was used
> up long ago, but you get a pass this time because
> you did not label those who disagree with you as
> "racists."
>
> 2. The situation in SOCO is different from South
> Lakes because:
> a. Lake Braddock, Hayfield, and SOCO are all AP
> schools.
> b. No one is claiming a school "needs" more
> students so the school can somehow improve.
> c. No one is claiming schools have "too many"
> students so that it is too hard to make the cheer
> squad, etc.
> d. Students are overcrowding SOCO only because the
> School Board put too many kids there in the first
> place. They should just draw the boundaries the
> way they should have been drawn in the first
> place, and RESTORE some neighborhoods to the
> schools to which they were assigned in 2005. The
> new numbers show Lake Braddock (grades 7-12) will
> have 900 empty seats; Hayfield (grades 7-12) will
> have 137; Lee/Key pyramid will have 616.
> e. This is a matter of saving us all money by not
> building a new school. SOCO (grades 7-12) is only
> projected to be overcrowded by 248 students in
> 2012. It is not worth building an entire new
> middle school when SOCO has an average of only 41
> extra students per grade.

According to your earlier post, it should never be permissible to "redistrict" students from a higher performing school to a lower performing school, but it's now OK to send SoCo students to lower-performing Hayfield or Lee districts because this would be "restoring" students to their schools rather than "redistricting" them.

It might help if you could let the rest of us know what the statute of limitations is for "restoration." Otherwise, we might worry that your positions trend toward the inconsistent.

compass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Rt 7 runs east to west, so how do you get "East or
> West of Route 7"

I have total faith that if you take your head out of your ass and look at a map you'll find a way to figure it out.

No Madison Is an Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> good luck Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Good luck trying to make sense of those
> "capacity
> > calculations". It looks like a bunch of
> mumbojumbo
> > to me.
> >
> > I think they work backwards. They decide what
> > number they want to come up with first and then
> > create the formulas to decide what will create
> > that magic number.
> >
> > The bottom line is there just isn't any money
> to
> > build new schools right now. If you have to
> put
> > 13 instead of 12 into a SPED classroom then
> just
> > make the best of it. I get so tired of the
> > whiners about overcrowding.
> >
> > We have plenty of excess capacity at our
> > schools-we need to be more efficient.
>
> If the Board really believes these numbers, does
> mean that a Langley-to-Herndon redistricting
> should be considered? Or, if "no justification"'s
> views carry the day, perhaps we should build yet
> another addition to Langley, since no one at a
> "higher performing school" should ever be
> redistricted to another "lower performing" school.
>
>
> Based on the prior numbers, it had seemed to me
> quite reasonable to propose a modest
> Madison-to-Marshall redistricting to relieve
> projected overcrowding at Madison and fill empty
> spots at Marshall. However - surprise, surprise -
> the capacities of Madison and McLean have now been
> adjusted upward by significant amounts. The same
> holds true for some other schools like Woodson
> that previously had been identified as
> overcrowded.
>
> These numbers - if they are to be believed - do
> suggest that Marshall could be closed. Consider
> what the adjusted enrollments would be if:
>
> 1. North of 123/West of Route 7 - Marshall to
> Madison
>
> 2. South of 123/East of Route 7 - Marshall to
> McLean (at least one of the McLean islands would
> no longer be an island).
>
> 3. South of 123/West of Route 7 - Marshall to
> Falls Church
>
> 4. West of Hunter Mill - Madison to South Lakes
> (alternatively, North of 123/West of Route 7 could
> be assigned to South Lakes, although that would
> require many students who live closer to both
> Madison and Oakton than South Lakes to travel to
> Reston, while students closer to South Lakes than
> Madison continued to attend Madison).
>
> If the Board acted on this promptly, it would save
> the funds to renovate Marshall, be positive to
> South Lakes and Falls Church, and neutral or
> positive to Madison. It would, however, be
> fascinating to watch Jane Strauss's reaction.

Over the last 10 years or so, many people have suggested closing Marshall. The land that it sits on is VERY valuable and it has been under enrolled for at least 25 years. But the school board member who represents Marshall, first Ernestine Heasty and now Phil N-E, have had no interest in closing it.

The board doesn't seem to care about wasting money. And why should they? The BOS can always raise the tax rate and the BOS continues to give them more money. PLUS, the bonds pass by huge margins. So no problems renovating schools that are not needed and sitting on property worth many millions of dollars.

good stuff Wrote:
-

> > >
> > > Did it ever occur to the Staff or the School
> > Board
> > > that they should not be making boundary
> > decisions
> > > based on purported capacity issues if they
> had
> > any
> > > expectation that a new study might produce
> such
> > > different numbers?

>
>
> At the end of 2007-08 we had a net increase of 912
> students. Thanks goodness all those kids are
> dropping out of high school to keep the numbers
> down-high schools saw a decrease of 689 students.
> That is an increase over prior years-last year
> there was an increase of 247 students.
>
> I recommend that everyone look at the individual
> high school data. When you see enrollment
> dropping in April/May/June those are the kids
> dropping out. It is kinda sad. Centreville HS
> surprised me with a high number of 74. TJ lost 12
> students.
>
> Definitely take a look at the numbers.

How do we know if those drop outs were students who were moving over the summer? They may have withdrawn from and FCPS school to enroll in another state or county.

As for TJ, I know a group of freshman informed TJ that they were returning to the base school for sophomore year. TJ always has a few students who leave after junior year to go to college. Many colleges don't care if a student from TJ has a high school diploma, as long they've taken the higher level and AP classes. Students from other high schools skip senior year too. I don't think the TJ students are true high school dropouts.

“Fear Allah and obey Him. Be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to Allah. Then every person shall be paid what he earned; and they shall not be dealt with unjustly” (Al-Baqarah 2: 281)

Major sins are indeed the cause for all misery, evil and torment in this world and the hereafter. And the worst of all sins are those that are greatest in harm and danger. Among the destructive major sins are backbiting and slandering. These two sins were forbidden by Allah through His Prophet because they sow enmity, evils and discord among people and lead to destruction. They make their perpetrator regret when regret will be of no avail. They cause hostilities between people of the same household and between neighbours and relatives. They can decrease in good deeds and increase in evil ones and lead to dishonour and ignominy.

Backbiting and slandering are shame and disgrace. Their perpetrator is detested and he shall not have a noble death. Allah forbids these acts in His Book when He says,

“O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion, in deeds some suspicions are sins. And spy not neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting). And fear Allah, verily, Allah is the one who accepts repentance, Most Merciful” (Al-Hujuraat 49: 12)

This verse strongly forbids backbiting for Allah likens the backbiter to one who eats the flesh of his dead brother. If he would hate eating the flesh of his brother, he should also hate to eat his flesh while he is alive by backbiting and slandering him.

When one reflects deeply over this assimilation it will be enough to keep one away from backbiting.

Abu Hurayrah narrated that the Prophet said, “Do you know what backbiting is?” They said, “Allah and His Messenger know best.” He then said, “It is to say something about your brother that he would dislike.” Someone asked him, “But what if what I say is true?” The Messenger of Allah said, “If what you say about him is true, you are backbiting him, but if it is not true then you have slandered him.” (Muslim)

Abu Bakr narrated that the Prophet said in Mina on the day of slaughtering (10th day of Dhul-Hijjah), “Verily, your blood, property and honour have become sacred to one another as the sacredness of this day of yours in this month of yours and in this city of yours. Indeed, have I conveyed the Message?” (Al-Bukharee and Muslim)

Therefore, guard your tongue, fellow Muslims, from this debasing sin, for whoever guards his tongue from sins and uses his limbs in acts of obedience to Allah has prospered. Sahl ibn Sa’d narrated that the Messenger of Allah said

“Who protects his tongue from unlawful utterances and his private parts from illegal sexual intercourse, I shall guarantee him entrance into Paradise.” (Bukharee and Muslim)

Abu Moosa Al-Ash’aree said, “I asked the Messenger of Allah: Who is the best Muslim? The Messenger of Allah replied, “He is the one from whom Muslims are safe from the evil of his tongue and hands.” (Muslim)

Dear Muslims! Beware of slipping of your tongues and do not give it free hand to wreak havoc on you. For free tongue destroys its owner and causes him calamities and evils.

Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudree narrated that the Messenger of Allah said, “When man wakes up in the morning each day, all parts of the body warn the tongue saying, ‘Fear Allah as regards us for we are at your mercy; if you are upright, we will be upright and if you are crooked, we become crooked.’” (At-Tirmidhee)

Mu’aadh ibn Jabal said, “I said: O Messenger of Allah tell me of a deed that will make me enter Paradise and keep me away from the Fire. The Prophet said, ‘You have asked of a great matter but it is easy for whosoever Allah makes it easy. You should worship Allah without associating anything with Him, perform Salaah, pay Zakaah (charity), fast during the month of Ramadaan and perform pilgrimage if you are able to.’ He said further, ‘Should I show you the gateways to good? Fasting is a shield (from evils), charity extinguishes sins as water extinguishes fire and praying in the middle of the night.’ He then recited this verse, ‘Their sides forsake their beds to invoke their Lord in fear and hope and they spend (charity in Allah’s cause) out of what We have bestowed them. No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.’ (As-Sajdah 32: 16-17) The Messenger of Allah then said, ‘Should I tell you the head of the matter, its pillar and its peak?’ I said: Yes O Messenger of Allah. He then said, ‘The head of the matter is Islam, its pillar is Salaah (prayer) and its peak is Jihaad in the way of Allah.’ He then asked, ‘Should I tell you of the foundation of all that?’ I said: Yes O Messenger of Allah. He then took hold of his tongue and said, ‘Hold back this.’ I said: O Messenger of Allah, are we going to be held responsible for what we utter? He said, ‘May your mother be bereaved of you[1] does anything cast people into the Fire on their faces except what their tongues have uttered?’” (At-Tirmdhee)

Anas narrated that the Messenger of Allah said, “When I was ascended to heaven, I passed by a people who had copper nails with which they scratched their faces and chests, and I said, ‘O Jibreel, who are these?’ He said, ‘These are those who used to eat other people’s flesh and attack their honour.’” (Abu Dawood)

Therefore do not treat the issue of backbiting with indifference because it is a great sin. Allah says, “ You considered it a little thing, while with Allah it was very great.” (An-Noor 24: 15)

Abu Bakr used to take hold of his tongue and say this is that which caused me destruction. He said this as a sign of humbleness.

Backbiting is so widespread that it has become the topic of people’s meetings and an avenue for expressing their anger, misgivings and jealousy with those who indulge in backbiting believing that they are hiding their own imperfections and harming others. They are oblivious of the fact that they are only harming themselves. This is because the backbiter if the wrongdoer and his victim is the wronged and on the Day of Resurrection both the wrongdoer and the wronged will stand before Allah Who is the Just Judge and the wronged will appeal to Allah to avenge the wrong done to him, Allah will then give this wronged person from the good deeds of the person who wronged him in accordance with his wrong by backbiting his brother on a Day that no father will give his son any of his good deeds nor a friend to his friend. All will be saying, ‘Myself, myself.’

The Messenger of Allah(SAW) said, “Usury has seventy something kinds, the smallest of which is for a man to have intercourse with his mother and the highest act of usury is for a Muslim to attack the honour of his Muslim brother.” He also said, “Whoever protects the honour of his brother, Allah will protect him from Hellfire on the Day of Resurrection.” (At-Tirmidhee)

So prevent the backbiter of affronting the honour of Muslims. Allah says, “O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah and fear Him and speak (always) the truth.” (Al-Ahzaab 33: 70)

Fellow Muslims! Fear Allah for whoever fears Allah, He protects him from torment and doubles reward for him. Allah says,

“And indeed We have created man and We know what his own self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our knowledge). (Remember) that the two receivers (recording angels) receive (each human being after he or she has attained the age of puberty), one sitting on the right and one on the left (to note his or her actions). Not a word does he or she utter, but there is a watcher by him (ready to record it.” (Qaaf 50: 16-18)

Brothers in Islam, gossiping about others is also another vicious type of backbiting. It means carrying tales from one people to another with the intention of sowing dissention among them. Allah condemned this deed when He said,

“And obey not everyone who swears much, and is considered worthless. A slanderer going about with calumnies.” (Al-Qalam 68: 10-11)

The Prophet(SAW) said, “The gossiper will not enter Paradise.”

Fear Allah therefore, dear brothers, and call yourselves to account before you are called to account and weigh your own deeds before they are weighed for you.

Be aware also dear Muslims, that the Ulamaa have explained that it is allowed for the wronged to inform the authorities of the wrong done to him as it is allowed for the person who sees vice to inform those who are capable of removing it and prevent its perpetrator from committing further vice. It is also allowed for the one seeking for religious decision to mention the wrong done to him to the knowledgeable man from whom he is seeking a decision in order to make things clear for him. It is also permissible for you to tell whoever seeks your advice on a person of something about him. It is not allowed for you to hide what you know about him so that he will not be deceived. All these types of speaking about others are lawful.

I do not speak for CAPS but ... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPS Hypocrisy Wrote:
> > To those who
> > think CAPS should be against SOCO, you'd better
> > take your blinders off. Using their logic,
> SOCO
> > should be built so that middle and upper class
> > families won't be forced into failing (their
> word
> > for underperforming schools with a large
> > percentage of students on the lower end of the
> > socioeconomic spectrum) schools.
>
> 1. The line that CAPS is against "students on the
> lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum" was used
> up long ago, but you get a pass this time because
> you did not label those who disagree with you as
> "racists."
>
> 2. The situation in SOCO is different from South
> Lakes because:
> a. Lake Braddock, Hayfield, and SOCO are all AP
> schools.
> b. No one is claiming a school "needs" more
> students so the school can somehow improve.
> c. No one is claiming schools have "too many"
> students so that it is too hard to make the cheer
> squad, etc.
> d. Students are overcrowding SOCO only because the
> School Board put too many kids there in the first
> place. They should just draw the boundaries the
> way they should have been drawn in the first
> place, and RESTORE some neighborhoods to the
> schools to which they were assigned in 2005. The
> new numbers show Lake Braddock (grades 7-12) will
> have 900 empty seats; Hayfield (grades 7-12) will
> have 137; Lee/Key pyramid will have 616.
> e. This is a matter of saving us all money by not
> building a new school. SOCO (grades 7-12) is only
> projected to be overcrowded by 248 students in
> 2012. It is not worth building an entire new
> middle school when SOCO has an average of only 41
> extra students per grade.



If you are representative of the CAPS camp, you are doing their organization a disservice with your senseless posts.

SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually identical. That is a fact.

Both are IB schools
Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test scores
Both are significantly underenrolled (by about 600 seats)

Rest assured if the comparison SUITED CAPS, they would be using the comparison-they are deliberately ignoring the "elephant in the room".

Why, you ask?

Because, by NOT redistricting SOCO kids to Mt Vernon it will cost us as taxpayers $70 million dollars. IT IS URGENT and certainly more deserving of the SB's attention than the fiasco with South Lakes. SOCO has 450 kids too many-more than any of the neighboring schools of South Lakes. Yet we do NOTHING to solve the problem.

The reaon is simple-Mt Vernon's PTA is passive, ineffective or whatever. They are unable or unwilling to pitch the BF that SLHS PTA did. That and Storck is in bed with the SOCO crew and wouldn't dare upset those parents by sending their darlings to Mt Vernon.

Madison Is Not an Island is dishonest.

Madison Is Not an Island Wrote:
> According to your earlier post, it should never be
> permissible to "redistrict" students from a higher
> performing school to a lower performing school,
> but it's now OK to send SoCo students to
> lower-performing Hayfield or Lee districts because
> this would be "restoring" students to their
> schools rather than "redistricting" them.
>
> It might help if you could let the rest of us know
> what the statute of limitations is for
> "restoration." Otherwise, we might worry that
> your positions trend toward the inconsistent.

According to WHAT earlier post? You must be thinking of someone else.

A statute of limitations for "restoration"? Debatable, of course, but may I suggest eight years, the length of time it takes for all the kindergardeners to get to eighth grade and start picking out their high school courses?

where to begin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not speak for CAPS but ... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CAPS Hypocrisy Wrote:
> > > To those who
> > > think CAPS should be against SOCO, you'd
> better
> > > take your blinders off. Using their logic,
> > SOCO
> > > should be built so that middle and upper
> class
> > > families won't be forced into failing (their
> > word
> > > for underperforming schools with a large
> > > percentage of students on the lower end of
> the
> > > socioeconomic spectrum) schools.
> >
> > 1. The line that CAPS is against "students on
> the
> > lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum" was
> used
> > up long ago, but you get a pass this time
> because
> > you did not label those who disagree with you
> as
> > "racists."
> >
> > 2. The situation in SOCO is different from
> South
> > Lakes because:
> > a. Lake Braddock, Hayfield, and SOCO are all AP
> > schools.
> > b. No one is claiming a school "needs" more
> > students so the school can somehow improve.
> > c. No one is claiming schools have "too many"
> > students so that it is too hard to make the
> cheer
> > squad, etc.
> > d. Students are overcrowding SOCO only because
> the
> > School Board put too many kids there in the
> first
> > place. They should just draw the boundaries the
> > way they should have been drawn in the first
> > place, and RESTORE some neighborhoods to the
> > schools to which they were assigned in 2005.
> The
> > new numbers show Lake Braddock (grades 7-12)
> will
> > have 900 empty seats; Hayfield (grades 7-12)
> will
> > have 137; Lee/Key pyramid will have 616.
> > e. This is a matter of saving us all money by
> not
> > building a new school. SOCO (grades 7-12) is
> only
> > projected to be overcrowded by 248 students in
> > 2012. It is not worth building an entire new
> > middle school when SOCO has an average of only
> 41
> > extra students per grade.
>
>
>
> If you are representative of the CAPS camp, you
> are doing their organization a disservice with
> your senseless posts.
>
> SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually identical. That
> is a fact.
>
> Both are IB schools
> Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test scores
> Both are significantly underenrolled (by about 600
> seats)
>
> Rest assured if the comparison SUITED CAPS, they
> would be using the comparison-they are
> deliberately ignoring the "elephant in the room".
>
> Why, you ask?
>
> Because, by NOT redistricting SOCO kids to Mt
> Vernon it will cost us as taxpayers $70 million
> dollars. IT IS URGENT and certainly more deserving
> of the SB's attention than the fiasco with South
> Lakes. SOCO has 450 kids too many-more than any
> of the neighboring schools of South Lakes. Yet we
> do NOTHING to solve the problem.
>
> The reaon is simple-Mt Vernon's PTA is passive,
> ineffective or whatever. They are unable or
> unwilling to pitch the BF that SLHS PTA did. That
> and Storck is in bed with the SOCO crew and
> wouldn't dare upset those parents by sending their
> darlings to Mt Vernon.
>
> Madison Is Not an Island is dishonest.



Plus both South Lakes and Mt Vernon recently received $60 million renovations. Where is the "efficiency argument", School Board?

CAPS can't comment on SOCO. If they did, it blows their argument that "no kids from high performing schools should ever be sent to a low performing school".

They would rather we, as taxpayers, write the check for a new school to solve the problem.

Their silence on SOCO redistricting is deliberate.

SBS is an idiot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You need a lesson in Business 101 pal.
>
> You don't open a restaurant and then wait to offer
> food later or carry 3 items on the menu-noone will
> walk thru the door.
>
> CAPS has to "sell themselves" to the community and
> they are doing a lousy job thus far. That's why
> only Madison Island people showed up at the
> courthouse-only a small group has a vested
> interest in the West County boundary war.
>
> Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling
> you the way it is. Unless CAPS starts presenting
> themselves as a broad parent advocacy group or as
> a watchdog against the FCPS bullies, aint nobody
> going to care if they survive.
>
> People will join CAPS in masses as soon as they
> start appealing to other parents' concerns instead
> of their own self-interest.
>
> Why should I or anyone else write a $500 check so
> that your kid can go to Madison instead of South
> Lakes?


Sorry, it's that kind of small thinking that will prevent a great group like Caps from growing into a truly county-wide advocacy group. I'm a fM parent and we've written several checks to Caps over the current RD. Am I interested in SOCO, too? Absolutely! Is it a bigger priority to me than the current RD? Nope, Sorry. But, if a large group of parents very interested in SOCO joined Caps and put it on the table, it would get a nice place on the radar screen. To respond to your question on why should you or anyone else write a $500 check so that my kid can go to Madison versus SL (not true in my case) is because THIS EFFORT is the first real challenge to THIS SB's authority and actions. They have acted so inappropriately, that many of us had to say ENOUGH. If you support that, then you have a good reason to write a check to Caps. This court action--win or lose--will be changing the way the SB works. They know that they are being watched--and there is accountability. Reports from the recent Coppermine meeting show they are proceeding much more cautiously than they have with similar proposals.

where to begin Wrote:

> ... SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually identical. That
> is a fact.

No, that is a LIE. South County is an AP School.

> Both are IB schools.
No, South County is an AP School.

> Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test scores
> Both are significantly underenrolled (by about 600
> seats)

What school do you think you are talking about? SOCO is slightly overcrowded - that is why we are talking about it.

By the new data, Mt Vernon IS projected to have 565 empty seats in 2012, but it is difficult to get to - look at the roads.

where to begin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you are representative of the CAPS camp, you
> are doing their organization a disservice with
> your senseless posts.
>
> SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually identical. That
> is a fact.
>
> Both are IB schools
> Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test scores
> Both are significantly underenrolled (by about 600
> seats)
>
> Rest assured if the comparison SUITED CAPS, they
> would be using the comparison-they are
> deliberately ignoring the "elephant in the room".
>
> Why, you ask?
>
> Because, by NOT redistricting SOCO kids to Mt
> Vernon it will cost us as taxpayers $70 million
> dollars. IT IS URGENT and certainly more deserving
> of the SB's attention than the fiasco with South
> Lakes. SOCO has 450 kids too many-more than any
> of the neighboring schools of South Lakes. Yet we
> do NOTHING to solve the problem.
>
> The reaon is simple-Mt Vernon's PTA is passive,
> ineffective or whatever. They are unable or
> unwilling to pitch the BF that SLHS PTA did. That
> and Storck is in bed with the SOCO crew and
> wouldn't dare upset those parents by sending their
> darlings to Mt Vernon.
>
> Madison Is Not an Island is dishonest.

You misread my post completely, but whatever. In substance I was largely agreeing with what you posted, so I'd love to know how my post was dishonest.
PS - If you are going to dump on other posters with such intensity, do try to keep South Lakes and South County separate.

South Lakes: under-enrolled IB

South County: over-enrolled AP

After you've repeated that 50 times, you can return to the thread and start attacking the rest of us all over again. Cheers.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> where to begin Wrote:
>
> > ... SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually identical.
> That
> > is a fact.
>
> No, that is a LIE. South County is an AP School.
>
> > Both are IB schools.
> No, South County is an AP School.
>
> > Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test scores
> > Both are significantly underenrolled (by about
> 600
> > seats)
>
> What school do you think you are talking about?
> SOCO is slightly overcrowded - that is why we are
> talking about it.
>
> By the new data, Mt Vernon IS projected to have
> 565 empty seats in 2012, but it is difficult to
> get to - look at the roads.



So sorry to confuse everyone. I meant to compare South Lakes to Mt Vernon-not SOCO.

They are both IB schools, underenrolled, high FRM, recently renovated, etc.

I just think it is interesting that South Lakes is so urgent and Mt Vernon is ignored.

Mr. Regnier, what has happened to the students since you wrote this?

I can tell you. HIGH DROP OUT RATES, SEVENTY FCPS FAIL NCLB AND LOWER TEST SCORES.

All bull shit with no action and no improvement.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Turnaround Times Twenty
Project Excel shows what can be accomplished when a large school system focuses on its poorest-performing schools.

Principal Magazine, The Turnaround Principal » September/October 2004, vol. 84 no. 1

by Paul Regnier
A turnaround principal is most likely to be successful when supported by a turnaround school system that provides the resources, training, and accountability the principal needs. This has certainly proven true in Fairfax County, Virginia, a relatively affluent suburban region that sends 166,000 children to public schools that have earned a reputation for excellent education.

But in a county this large (about 400 square miles) there are areas of poverty as well as wealth, and the percentage of children eligible for free and reduced-price meals has increased substantially in recent years, along with the percentages of students eligible for English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) and Limited English Proficiency (LEP) services. Five years ago, the Fairfax County Public Schools (FCPS) initiated a comprehensive program designed to provide principals of the 20 schools with the lowest standardized test scores-and the highest percentages of minority, LEP, and low-income students-the resources and support needed to raise the achievement of these students and turn their schools around. It is called Project Excel.

Creating Learning Time
The purpose of Project Excel is to provide these at-risk schools with three ingredients of academic success: more learning time; enhanced academic programs; and increased accountability. Before Excel, these schools often had excellent principals and excellent teachers, but were unable to meet the special needs of students from poverty. In its five years of existence, Project Excel has lived up to its name. Research has shown that these schools do excel, raising student achievement substantially.

The most immediate need for the Project Excel schools was increased time for learning. To meet that need, FCPS provided all of the schools with more teachers and, if needed, relocatable classrooms to implement full-day kindergarten. Excel schools also extended the number of instructional hours in the week by eliminating a long-standing practice of dismissing school early on Mondays for teacher planning.

Another way to provide more time was to introduce a year-round calendar at many Excel schools. This provides the usual 180 days of instruction, but with more frequent and shorter breaks than the traditional two-month summer vacation. Year-round school offers two clear benefits for student achievement: less time for students to forget what they learned the year before, plus intersession programs during the breaks that can help students catch up with their peers or learn in a less structured environment. Intersessions at the Excel schools are staffed by regular and retired teachers, community members, and parents with special talents and knowledge. So far, seven elementary schools have chosen the year-round calendar, with strong community and staff support.

Academics, Accountability, and Evaluation
The second critical resource these schools needed was enhanced academic programs. Every Excel school implemented a technology-based phonics programs in kindergarten and first grade. Several other research-based programs were suggested to the schools, including Reading Recovery, High Impact, Success for All, and Direct Instruction. Also suggested was reduced instructional class size. Although different schools tried different programs, most determined that reduced class size was the most effective.

Accountability has been a valuable motivator for the Excel schools. Starting with a Schoolwide Achievement Index (SAI) score reflecting student achievement on standardized tests, each Excel school is expected to improve its SAI score by five points each year. The carrot is financial rewards for meeting or exceeding this goal. The stick is an instructional audit for schools that do not meet minimal SAI increases over three years.

Evaluation is another important component of Project Excel. Success of the program was validated when evaluation over the first four years (1999-2000 to 2002-03) indicated that 14 of the original 20 Excel schools had already met or exceeded the provisional accreditation benchmarks the state had set for 2006. While the evaluation showed the achievement gap narrowing between students in Excel schools and those in other FCPS schools, it also indicated some continuing needs: skills learned in lower grades needed to be reinforced at higher grades; vocabulary-building and language skills needed more emphasis in earlier grades; and students needed more opportunities to apply math skills to real-life examples.

The Rewards of Success
Project Excel is a success and many of its best practices have been adopted by other FCPS schools with special needs. These include:

Developing a schoolwide vision for student achievement;

Analyzing data to identify instructional strengths and
weaknesses;

Assessing student progress to match instruction to individual needs;

Training teachers to do these assessments; and

Teaching test-taking skills.
In recruiting hundreds of teachers every year, FCPS has found that many young teachers are eager to teach children from poor and LEP backgrounds. However, they want to teach those students in schools that are safe, staffed by top professionals, and supported with the services they need. Excel schools are just what they are looking for, and FCPS recruits them for those schools.

Project Excel shows that principals can turn schools around and make a difference in the lives and achievements of low-income and LEP students if they have teachers who want to teach those students and the resources, support, and accountability they need to succeed.

----------
Paul Regnier is coordinator of community relations for Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia. His e-mail address is paul.regnier@fcps.edu.

Right on sister Wrote:
> Plus both South Lakes and Mt Vernon recently
> received $60 million renovations.
>
-------
Bond year for Mount Vernon's renovation was 1995, and the cost was less than half of $60 million.

To clarify another point someone made, the queue for renovations does not change unless an emergency occurs, like the roof falling in. The high school list is:
Hayfield
Lake Braddock
South Lakes
Woodson (to be completed in FY 2010)
Edison (major work to start in FY 2010)
Marshall (major work to start in FY 2012)
Jefferson (major work to start in FY 2013)
Unnamed school (appears to have become West Springfield)

Right on sister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> where to begin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I do not speak for CAPS but ... Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > CAPS Hypocrisy Wrote:
> > > > To those who
> > > > think CAPS should be against SOCO, you'd
> > better
> > > > take your blinders off. Using their logic,
> > > SOCO
> > > > should be built so that middle and upper
> > class
> > > > families won't be forced into failing
> (their
> > > word
> > > > for underperforming schools with a large
> > > > percentage of students on the lower end of
> > the
> > > > socioeconomic spectrum) schools.
> > >
> > > 1. The line that CAPS is against "students on
> > the
> > > lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum" was
> > used
> > > up long ago, but you get a pass this time
> > because
> > > you did not label those who disagree with you
> > as
> > > "racists."
> > >
> > > 2. The situation in SOCO is different from
> > South
> > > Lakes because:
> > > a. Lake Braddock, Hayfield, and SOCO are all
> AP
> > > schools.
> > > b. No one is claiming a school "needs" more
> > > students so the school can somehow improve.
> > > c. No one is claiming schools have "too many"
> > > students so that it is too hard to make the
> > cheer
> > > squad, etc.
> > > d. Students are overcrowding SOCO only
> because
> > the
> > > School Board put too many kids there in the
> > first
> > > place. They should just draw the boundaries
> the
> > > way they should have been drawn in the first
> > > place, and RESTORE some neighborhoods to the
> > > schools to which they were assigned in 2005.
> > The
> > > new numbers show Lake Braddock (grades 7-12)
> > will
> > > have 900 empty seats; Hayfield (grades 7-12)
> > will
> > > have 137; Lee/Key pyramid will have 616.
> > > e. This is a matter of saving us all money by
> > not
> > > building a new school. SOCO (grades 7-12) is
> > only
> > > projected to be overcrowded by 248 students
> in
> > > 2012. It is not worth building an entire new
> > > middle school when SOCO has an average of
> only
> > 41
> > > extra students per grade.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you are representative of the CAPS camp, you
> > are doing their organization a disservice with
> > your senseless posts.
> >
> > SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually identical.
> That
> > is a fact.
> >
> > Both are IB schools
> > Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test scores
> > Both are significantly underenrolled (by about
> 600
> > seats)
> >
> > Rest assured if the comparison SUITED CAPS,
> they
> > would be using the comparison-they are
> > deliberately ignoring the "elephant in the
> room".
> >
> > Why, you ask?
> >
> > Because, by NOT redistricting SOCO kids to Mt
> > Vernon it will cost us as taxpayers $70 million
> > dollars. IT IS URGENT and certainly more
> deserving
> > of the SB's attention than the fiasco with
> South
> > Lakes. SOCO has 450 kids too many-more than
> any
> > of the neighboring schools of South Lakes. Yet
> we
> > do NOTHING to solve the problem.
> >
> > The reaon is simple-Mt Vernon's PTA is passive,
> > ineffective or whatever. They are unable or
> > unwilling to pitch the BF that SLHS PTA did.
> That
> > and Storck is in bed with the SOCO crew and
> > wouldn't dare upset those parents by sending
> their
> > darlings to Mt Vernon.
> >
> > Madison Is Not an Island is dishonest.
>
>
>
> Plus both South Lakes and Mt Vernon recently
> received $60 million renovations. Where is the
> "efficiency argument", School Board?
>
> CAPS can't comment on SOCO. If they did, it blows
> their argument that "no kids from high performing
> schools should ever be sent to a low performing
> school".
>
> They would rather we, as taxpayers, write the
> check for a new school to solve the problem.
>
> Their silence on SOCO redistricting is deliberate.



Ok, it's clear that one anti-Caps person--probably SLPTA AGAIN!-- is writing all these posts under different names. Stop it. You don't fool anybody. The big difference in SOCO and the current RD is that the SB plans to spend BIG BUCKS to built a new middle school. That is our money. With the current RD no one is building a new school. The SB is playing a shell game with affected families.

Also, the Caps case is not about moving kids from high performing schools to low performing schools. Much bigger issues are involved and you know it. You can get the Caps filing from the court--and you can also get a transcript of the hearing.

The predictable response from the Neenster. No TJ kid could possibly drop out!! I guess she has never heard of mental breakdowns or other health issues.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I don't think
> the TJ students are true high school dropouts.

Right on sister Wrote:

>
> Plus both South Lakes and Mt Vernon recently
> received $60 million renovations. Where is the
> "efficiency argument", School Board?
>
> CAPS can't comment on SOCO. If they did, it blows
> their argument that "no kids from high performing
> schools should ever be sent to a low performing
> school".
>
> They would rather we, as taxpayers, write the
> check for a new school to solve the problem.
>
> Their silence on SOCO redistricting is deliberate.


Sorry, as far as I can tell 'no neighborhood should ever be redistricted to a lower performing school against their will' is not a CAPS line - its mine but they're welcome to use it as is anyone else

I fail to see why this is a problem

its not just about 'high-to-low', its also and 'highest-to-'high' and 'low-to-lower' - the aim should be to have the world's best education system rather than average down to one which is beginning to look like DC's.

The alternative is that kids are constantly pumped into failing schools as is happening at SLHS and Hughes MS.

The board continues to reward failure and penalize success. It should be the other way around.

The emphasis should be on fixing schools, not on shuffling some kids around to hide inconvenient facts and protecting others kids from better connected families and neighborhoods.

Invest in poor performing schools, provide incentives to teachers, whatever - just stop expecting kids to be driven to the lowest common denominator just to feed someone's political agenda,

The check and balance should be that kids are not coerced into lower performing schools - simple.

I found it disgraceful that the recent RD was manipulated by the board to bully and coerce targeted neighborhoods irrespective of their needs because the board hadn't got the balls to face up to underlying issues.

Stu's pitiful rant at the final board meeting, Janie's deliberate and callous execution of the Madison North bus-shoving and the inexcusable use of the race card by SLHS teachers and parents to stifle any discussion of performance showed how corrupted the whole process was.

Isn't this what CAPS Hypocrisy just said?

Right on sister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> CAPS can't comment on SOCO. If they did, it blows
> their argument that "no kids from high performing
> schools should ever be sent to a low performing
> school".
>
> They would rather we, as taxpayers, write the
> check for a new school to solve the problem.
>
> Their silence on SOCO redistricting is deliberate.

Upfront disclaimer: I am going to name call.

You are bad. Sorry to disappoint, but SL and Mt. Vernon are not as similar as you would like everyone to believe (I guess it fits your agenda to do so). Now who is being dishonest? South Lakes is far superior to Mount Vernon in virtually every measurable area of comparison.

my bad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > where to begin Wrote:
> >
> > > ... SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually
> identical.
> > That
> > > is a fact.
> >
> > No, that is a LIE. South County is an AP School.
>
> >
> > > Both are IB schools.
> > No, South County is an AP School.
> >
> > > Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test
> scores
> > > Both are significantly underenrolled (by
> about
> > 600
> > > seats)
> >
> > What school do you think you are talking about?
> > SOCO is slightly overcrowded - that is why we
> are
> > talking about it.
> >
> > By the new data, Mt Vernon IS projected to have
> > 565 empty seats in 2012, but it is difficult to
> > get to - look at the roads.
>
>
>
> So sorry to confuse everyone. I meant to compare
> South Lakes to Mt Vernon-not SOCO.
>
> They are both IB schools, underenrolled, high FRM,
> recently renovated, etc.
>
> I just think it is interesting that South Lakes is
> so urgent and Mt Vernon is ignored.

From the FM Mom (and CAPS) playbook:

"If CAPS is criticized or exposed by anyone, pull out the tired canard that it must be the SL PTSA. No one else could possibly disagree with or point out the failings of CAPS' motives. Remember, bash the SL PTSA at all costs! Point out how stupid they are to have their kids in a failing school and how successful they are at winning the RD fight. Scratch that, they can't be stupid or smart at the same time, can they?"

FM Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ok, it's clear that one anti-Caps person--probably
> SLPTA AGAIN!-- is writing all these posts under
> different names. Stop it. You don't fool
> anybody. The big difference in SOCO and the
> current RD is that the SB plans to spend BIG BUCKS
> to built a new middle school. That is our money.
> With the current RD no one is building a new
> school. The SB is playing a shell game with
> affected families.
>
> Also, the Caps case is not about moving kids from
> high performing schools to low performing schools.
> Much bigger issues are involved and you know it.
> You can get the Caps filing from the court--and
> you can also get a transcript of the hearing.

not CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The alternative is that kids are constantly pumped
> into failing schools as is happening at SLHS and
> Hughes MS.
>

What a whopper. Since when were kids constantly pumped into SL and Hughes? Until the recent (2008) adjustment in boundaries, not one kid was pumped into Hughes. The opposite has been true! For example, Hughes GT center shrank by more than half when Carson opened (interesting aside: Neen says they only put GT centers in failing schools so I guess that means Carson - and Longfellow, for that matter- are failing schools?) Artic Fox neighborhood moved to Oakton via administrative adjustment, even though the land was in the SL pyramid. Should I go on?

Please don't spread rumors as fact. It makes you look ignorant.

I should have said 'not one kid was pumped into Hughes or South Lakes.'

not CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right on sister Wrote:
>
> >
> > Plus both South Lakes and Mt Vernon recently
> > received $60 million renovations. Where is the
> > "efficiency argument", School Board?
> >
> > CAPS can't comment on SOCO. If they did, it
> blows
> > their argument that "no kids from high
> performing
> > schools should ever be sent to a low performing
> > school".
> >
> > They would rather we, as taxpayers, write the
> > check for a new school to solve the problem.
> >
> > Their silence on SOCO redistricting is
> deliberate.
>
>
> Sorry, as far as I can tell 'no neighborhood
> should ever be redistricted to a lower performing
> school against their will' is not a CAPS line -
> its mine but they're welcome to use it as is
> anyone else
>
> I fail to see why this is a problem
>
> its not just about 'high-to-low', its also and
> 'highest-to-'high' and 'low-to-lower' - the aim
> should be to have the world's best education
> system rather than average down to one which is
> beginning to look like DC's.
>
> The alternative is that kids are constantly pumped
> into failing schools as is happening at SLHS and
> Hughes MS.
>
> The board continues to reward failure and penalize
> success. It should be the other way around.
>
> The emphasis should be on fixing schools, not on
> shuffling some kids around to hide inconvenient
> facts and protecting others kids from better
> connected families and neighborhoods.
>
> Invest in poor performing schools, provide
> incentives to teachers, whatever - just stop
> expecting kids to be driven to the lowest common
> denominator just to feed someone's political
> agenda,
>
> The check and balance should be that kids are not
> coerced into lower performing schools - simple.
>
> I found it disgraceful that the recent RD was
> manipulated by the board to bully and coerce
> targeted neighborhoods irrespective of their needs
> because the board hadn't got the balls to face up
> to underlying issues.
>
> Stu's pitiful rant at the final board meeting,
> Janie's deliberate and callous execution of the
> Madison North bus-shoving and the inexcusable use
> of the race card by SLHS teachers and parents to
> stifle any discussion of performance showed how
> corrupted the whole process was.

There are many people who disliked the recent redistricting for a lot of different reasons. I am one of them.

On the other hand, your positions do come across as a series of absolute principles based on pure self-interest, rather than a desire to create true incentives to enhance the performance of students throughout the county-wide system.

They would also raise serious resource allocation issues when the "higher performing schools" become over-crowded. How would you propose to address the South County over-crowding? Apparently we have to spend the money on a new school or addition, because it would offend your principles to make use of space available at Lee, Hayfield or Mount Vernon.

Inspired by your shining example, however, my new motto will be "no neighborhood should ever be forced to send their children to schools in trailers so that some other neighborhood is not redistricted to a lower performing school."

Sorry if it's harsh, but apparently I've got a bus to drive and some folks to run over.

FM Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right on sister Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > where to begin Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I do not speak for CAPS but ... Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > CAPS Hypocrisy Wrote:
> > > > > To those who
> > > > > think CAPS should be against SOCO, you'd
> > > better
> > > > > take your blinders off. Using their
> logic,
> > > > SOCO
> > > > > should be built so that middle and upper
> > > class
> > > > > families won't be forced into failing
> > (their
> > > > word
> > > > > for underperforming schools with a large
> > > > > percentage of students on the lower end
> of
> > > the
> > > > > socioeconomic spectrum) schools.
> > > >
> > > > 1. The line that CAPS is against "students
> on
> > > the
> > > > lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum"
> was
> > > used
> > > > up long ago, but you get a pass this time
> > > because
> > > > you did not label those who disagree with
> you
> > > as
> > > > "racists."
> > > >
> > > > 2. The situation in SOCO is different from
> > > South
> > > > Lakes because:
> > > > a. Lake Braddock, Hayfield, and SOCO are
> all
> > AP
> > > > schools.
> > > > b. No one is claiming a school "needs" more
> > > > students so the school can somehow improve.
> > > > c. No one is claiming schools have "too
> many"
> > > > students so that it is too hard to make the
> > > cheer
> > > > squad, etc.
> > > > d. Students are overcrowding SOCO only
> > because
> > > the
> > > > School Board put too many kids there in the
> > > first
> > > > place. They should just draw the boundaries
> > the
> > > > way they should have been drawn in the
> first
> > > > place, and RESTORE some neighborhoods to
> the
> > > > schools to which they were assigned in
> 2005.
> > > The
> > > > new numbers show Lake Braddock (grades
> 7-12)
> > > will
> > > > have 900 empty seats; Hayfield (grades
> 7-12)
> > > will
> > > > have 137; Lee/Key pyramid will have 616.
> > > > e. This is a matter of saving us all money
> by
> > > not
> > > > building a new school. SOCO (grades 7-12)
> is
> > > only
> > > > projected to be overcrowded by 248 students
> > in
> > > > 2012. It is not worth building an entire
> new
> > > > middle school when SOCO has an average of
> > only
> > > 41
> > > > extra students per grade.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you are representative of the CAPS camp,
> you
> > > are doing their organization a disservice
> with
> > > your senseless posts.
> > >
> > > SOCO and Mt Vernon are virtually identical.
> > That
> > > is a fact.
> > >
> > > Both are IB schools
> > > Both have high FRM enrollments/poor test
> scores
> > > Both are significantly underenrolled (by
> about
> > 600
> > > seats)
> > >
> > > Rest assured if the comparison SUITED CAPS,
> > they
> > > would be using the comparison-they are
> > > deliberately ignoring the "elephant in the
> > room".
> > >
> > > Why, you ask?
> > >
> > > Because, by NOT redistricting SOCO kids to Mt
> > > Vernon it will cost us as taxpayers $70
> million
> > > dollars. IT IS URGENT and certainly more
> > deserving
> > > of the SB's attention than the fiasco with
> > South
> > > Lakes. SOCO has 450 kids too many-more than
> > any
> > > of the neighboring schools of South Lakes.
> Yet
> > we
> > > do NOTHING to solve the problem.
> > >
> > > The reaon is simple-Mt Vernon's PTA is
> passive,
> > > ineffective or whatever. They are unable or
> > > unwilling to pitch the BF that SLHS PTA did.
> > That
> > > and Storck is in bed with the SOCO crew and
> > > wouldn't dare upset those parents by sending
> > their
> > > darlings to Mt Vernon.
> > >
> > > Madison Is Not an Island is dishonest.
> >
> >
> >
> > Plus both South Lakes and Mt Vernon recently
> > received $60 million renovations. Where is the
> > "efficiency argument", School Board?
> >
> > CAPS can't comment on SOCO. If they did, it
> blows
> > their argument that "no kids from high
> performing
> > schools should ever be sent to a low performing
> > school".
> >
> > They would rather we, as taxpayers, write the
> > check for a new school to solve the problem.
> >
> > Their silence on SOCO redistricting is
> deliberate.
>
>
>
> Ok, it's clear that one anti-Caps person--probably
> SLPTA AGAIN!-- is writing all these posts under
> different names. Stop it. You don't fool
> anybody. The big difference in SOCO and the
> current RD is that the SB plans to spend BIG BUCKS
> to built a new middle school. That is our money.
> With the current RD no one is building a new
> school. The SB is playing a shell game with
> affected families.
>
> Also, the Caps case is not about moving kids from
> high performing schools to low performing schools.
> Much bigger issues are involved and you know it.
> You can get the Caps filing from the court--and
> you can also get a transcript of the hearing.



Just as we are all weary of the SLHS supporters calling everyone racist, we are also weary of your false assumptions that people who might disagree with you are SLHS people.

You better start building bridges with others in the community if you expect a broader support base for your anti-RD objectives.

I happen to be a West Springfield parent who is outraged at this decision to fund and build a middle school. I have not sipped the kool aid so I don't elieve that we can build a $70 million school without drawing from other school's renovation needs (sorry Liz, I don't buy your sales pitch).

Many of us support redistricting. It is the fiscally responsible thing to do and it necessary in the environment we are in. You have a 50/50 chance of bring sent to a school that is ranked below your current school, so this idea that kids should not go to "lower performing schools" is nonsense.

I would like to see CAPS clarify their position on redistricting in general, before I am willing to support them and their causes.

Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I should have said 'not one kid was pumped into
> Hughes or South Lakes.'

Try telling that to the Madison North families who are being shunted into Hughes

If GT center was removed from Hughes, the school would have to be closed down

We've been through all the performance numbers ad naseum

Not SLPTSA Wrote:
ernon.
>
> Inspired by your shining example, however, my new
> motto will be "no neighborhood should ever be
> forced to send their children to schools in
> trailers so that some other neighborhood is not
> redistricted to a lower performing school."
>
> Sorry if it's harsh, but apparently I've got a bus
> to drive and some folks to run over.


Fine - I'd rather have my kids educated in trailers at a high performing school than in a shiny palace where with low educational achievement and ambitions

I don't like trailers but I dislike failure even more

If you stacked trailers 50 high at langley, the majority of parents would still rather send their children there than to a low performing school

Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the FM Mom (and CAPS) playbook:
>
> "If CAPS is criticized or exposed by anyone, pull
> out the tired canard that it must be the SL PTSA.
> No one else could possibly disagree with or point
> out the failings of CAPS' motives. Remember, bash
> the SL PTSA at all costs! Point out how stupid
> they are to have their kids in a failing school
> and how successful they are at winning the RD
> fight. Scratch that, they can't be stupid or
> smart at the same time, can they?"
>
> FM Mom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Ok, it's clear that one anti-Caps
> person--probably
> > SLPTA AGAIN!-- is writing all these posts under
> > different names. Stop it. You don't fool
> > anybody. The big difference in SOCO and the
> > current RD is that the SB plans to spend BIG
> BUCKS
> > to built a new middle school. That is our
> money.
> > With the current RD no one is building a new
> > school. The SB is playing a shell game with
> > affected families.
> >
> > Also, the Caps case is not about moving kids
> from
> > high performing schools to low performing
> schools.
> > Much bigger issues are involved and you know
> it.
> > You can get the Caps filing from the court--and
> > you can also get a transcript of the hearing.


As a parent who is not directly affected by this RD, but have been watching it unfold, I would not be to proud of the way SLHS PTA conducted themselves.

You did a lousy job selling your school to these parents.
You were dishonest about the areas where your school was struggling.
You refused to acknowledge parent's VALID concerns about sending their kids to SLHS.

In a nutshell, you basically had to drag these parents kicking and screaming.

You exempted Langley from the mix.

Not a moment to be proud of, my dear.

You won the battle, but you surely lost the war. And it came at a tremendous cost to the reputation of your school. A reputation that will take years to recover.

know who your enemies are Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Many of us support redistricting. It is the
> fiscally responsible thing to do and it necessary
> in the environment we are in.

Pro-RD seems to be a very minority view, at least in the recent RD (which may be because it was particularly egregious).

At the SL redistricting the vast majority of people were against RD - as was clear at the first public meetings - the board just chose to ignore them

It was also clear that, if they were forced to have an RD, people had a strong preference for someone else to be RD'd instead of them

That's hardly an indication of a ringing public endorsement for RD


>You have a 50/50
> chance of bring sent to a school that is ranked
> below your current school, so this idea that kids
> should not go to "lower performing schools" is
> nonsense.
>

That just does not have to be the case.

The SL RD was just not necessary - fiscally, operationally or educationally - the facilities folks said as much. It was a political fiction

If you were in Madison North you had a 100% chance of being redistricted to a poor performing school. Regardless of whether you gave a damn about your children's education or not.

The no-lower-performance rule would be dead simple to apply. Its simple, its just and its a check on the board's backroom shinnanygins.

Why are we stuck with this mindset that things are a 50:50 chance as if they're a law of nature or that our live's are in the arbitrary control of our officials and bureaucrats?

I pay my taxes to get services which get better year on year, not worse. Why should we have to constantly fear that our kids are singled out to fix someone else's performance problem?

not CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Fine - I'd rather have my kids educated in
> trailers at a high performing school than in a
> shiny palace where with low educational
> achievement and ambitions
>
> I don't like trailers but I dislike failure even
> more
>
> If you stacked trailers 50 high at langley, the
> majority of parents would still rather send their
> children there than to a low performing school

So every school where some average test score is lower than the score at another school automatically becomes a school with "low educational achievement and ambitions"? This is the type of rhetoric from the 100% anti-RD crowd that many of us have grown to dislike immensely.

I don't hate trailers but I like MI at SV/Hughes/SL even more.

>
> I pay my taxes to get services which get better
> year on year, not worse. Why should we have to
> constantly fear that our kids are singled out to
> fix someone else's performance problem?


It usually comes down to this at the end doesn't it?

You pay taxes-I am sure MORE than the average FC citizen-I bet you are loaded!

Thie elitist, sense of entitlement tude really rubs me the wrong way.

Let's see-

0ne million Fairfax County citizens-many of them taxpayers.

167,000 students-of course not all taxpayers have kids-so what about them?

What do they get? Inefficiency? Half empty $100 million dollar schools?

$100k trailers at school A because the parents are too good for school B?

Get real, lady. You don't own your school-the taxpayer does. And if your pretentious ass offstring (hopefully they are not like you) has to go to another school because it is the fically responsible thing-oh well.

I am sure your rich ass can afford private school. See ya. you will not be missed.

Not SLPTSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So every school where some average test score is lower than the score at another school automatically becomes a school with "low educational achievement and ambitions"?

I can't comment on every school but I can comment on the meat of the recent RD

we've been over the performance gap at SLHS and Hughes ad nauseum on this forum - you can go over the numbers for your own entertainment if you like

there's a serious performance issue and the county refused to address it - choosing instead to use RD to hide it and achieving it by naked coercion

Madison North was simply one of the fall-guys in the behind the scenes dealings

Hughes
2007 did not meet AYP
2006 did not meet AYP
2005 did not meet AYP
very low VDOE accreditation rates e.g. 88% on science (vs 99 at Thoreau), 87% on english (vs 99 at thoreau) etc
(and that's including the GT center)

SLHS
compared to surrounding schools:
the lowest ratio of students taking SAT’s (66% vs Madison 88%)
the second lowest SAT score (1625 vs Madison 1715)
very low proportions of advanced passes on SOLs
very high proportions of failures on SOLs

that's 'low educational achievement'

'educational ambition' involves facing upto shortfalls honestly and addressing them - not blaming imaginary racists and undertaking land grabs for kids who may help move the scores (if they actually turn up)


That's what the RD was all about

Let's repeat that playbook again....Bash the SL PTSA. You are so full of hatred that you want to assume that I am with the SL PTSA. You couldn't be more wrong, but it doesn't matter because your mantra will always be the same. Some say they don't have a dog in the RD fight, but their posts says otherwise.

All of you, stop bashing the SL PTSA! They did exactly what you would have expected your PTSA to do. They stood up for their school and worked within the ground rules that were set out by the SB at the public forums to make the best of the situation for SL. They were very smart about how they played the game. Some of them did accuse others of being racist, and in some cases they may have been correct, no? From what I could tell in the public fora, they never said anything bad about the other schools involved or their students and they held their heads high amidst a lot of negative barbs thrown their way.

The same cannot be said for the anti-RD folks. Try as they might to pretend that they were civil, they were not and many egregious things were said about SL and to SL parents and students right here in this forum and at the public hearings. Go back and re-read for yourselves. During one of the public hearings, some CAPS folks planted their very large signs in front of a SL group in an effort to block their view. I saw it on the television and it was very immature, to say the least.

Everyone is correct that Langley should have been included, but the handful of students in North Reston attending Langley that would have been considered are less than the number in Madison Island, and the same people who are complaining now would have complained even if Langley had been in the mix. They would still not want to attend SL. Their minds are so puny and pathetic that they cannot accept that their children would be fine in a less than 'perfect' environment.

You can all spend negative energy hating the SL PTSA, but it will get you nowhere. You can direct the anger that you feel with yourselves for moving so close to the SL boundary at the SL PTSA and the SB, as is the case with a certain CAPS plaintiff, but it will get you nothing. You can continue to hate Dean Tisdadt or Stu Gibson or Liz Bradsher or whomever you want, but your life will not improve as a result. You can spend your remaining years in victim-hood wailing and gnashing your teeth over your Madison Island plight, to no avail. Grow up and move on.

We need to come to some agreements on this forum.

Everyone knows the scores at Hughes and South Lakes suck-no need to regurgitate it 1000 times.

People, I assume, agree that the School Board has a right to redistrict and/or realign boundaries.

So, let's come to some agreement as to what conditions allow redistricing. I don't think a school with low scores is exempt from RD because it will cause hard feelings either.

Let's be logical about this and park our emotions at the door.

Let's give Thoreau the same number of low-income kids that Hughes has and then run the numbers. How do you think Thoreau would fare then? Why is Vienna exempt from educating the low income kids in this area? Kids of parents who clean those big ugly-ass faux mansions in MI, no less. Boy, you MI folks sure have an overinflated opinion of yourselves and your importance to this county. You should put some ice on that.

not CAPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not SLPTSA Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > So every school where some average test score is
> lower than the score at another school
> automatically becomes a school with "low
> educational achievement and ambitions"?
>
> I can't comment on every school but I can comment
> on the meat of the recent RD
>
> we've been over the performance gap at SLHS and
> Hughes ad nauseum on this forum - you can go over
> the numbers for your own entertainment if you
> like
>
> there's a serious performance issue and the county
> refused to address it - choosing instead to use RD
> to hide it and achieving it by naked coercion
>
> Madison North was simply one of the fall-guys in
> the behind the scenes dealings
>
> Hughes
> 2007 did not meet AYP
> 2006 did not meet AYP
> 2005 did not meet AYP
> very low VDOE accreditation rates e.g. 88% on
> science (vs 99 at Thoreau), 87% on english (vs 99
> at thoreau) etc
> (and that's including the GT center)
>
> SLHS
> compared to surrounding schools:
> the lowest ratio of students taking SAT’s (66% vs
> Madison 88%)
> the second lowest SAT score (1625 vs Madison 1715)
>
> very low proportions of advanced passes on SOLs
> very high proportions of failures on SOLs
>
> that's 'low educational achievement'
>
> 'educational ambition' involves facing upto
> shortfalls honestly and addressing them - not
> blaming imaginary racists and undertaking land
> grabs for kids who may help move the scores (if
> they actually turn up)
>
>
> That's what the RD was all about

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I pay my taxes to get services which get better
> > year on year, not worse. Why should we have to
> > constantly fear that our kids are singled out
> to
> > fix someone else's performance problem?
>
>
> It usually comes down to this at the end doesn't
> it?
>
> You pay taxes-I am sure MORE than the average FC
> citizen-I bet you are loaded!
>
> Thie elitist, sense of entitlement tude really
> rubs me the wrong way.
>
> Let's see-
>
> 0ne million Fairfax County citizens-many of them
> taxpayers.
>
> 167,000 students-of course not all taxpayers have
> kids-so what about them?
>
> What do they get? Inefficiency? Half empty $100
> million dollar schools?
>
> $100k trailers at school A because the parents are
> too good for school B?
>
> Get real, lady. You don't own your school-the
> taxpayer does. And if your pretentious ass
> offstring (hopefully they are not like you) has to
> go to another school because it is the fically
> responsible thing-oh well.
>
> I am sure your rich ass can afford private school.
> See ya. you will not be missed.


Idiot

As a tax payer you have the right to expect services whether you pay $ or $$$ or even 0.$ and to question why services are failing. If you think that you have to be rich to care,

We're an ordinary working family, with both parents working long hours at challenging jobs and who take education very seriously. That's our own continuing education, our kids's education and that of the rest of our community.

I'm pretty sure that I've spent more time on factory floors and doing dirty smelly jobs than most posters. But that sure means I understand what education does and does not do

'rich ass' ... LOL

its not entitlement - its how we generate a future for our children and our country

if you want to continue to collapse into a 3rd world economy that we're seeing at the moment then just sit back and don't ask questions about failure rates, drop outs, wasted potential etc - leave the success to the rich folks

ask yourself - why is the US now so uncompetitive?

who's going to generate the jobs that will pay our children?

stop whining and understand why education is so important and why high attainment is important

educational success shouldn't be just for the rich - that's why every citizen should be pressing hard for the highest possible levels of performance

Its a hard economic world out there and the US economy is going down the pan. Talk to the asian countries - even talk to the gulf states. They get it and are investing massively to transform their education systems.

No - much better to shuffle the deck chairs

Let's face it. Anti-RD was all about making sure that some kids don't have to attend school with too many kids from a different socio-economic background. Anti-RD was all about keeping our schools segregated by socio-economics. Anti-RD was all about pooling all of the under-performing kids in one school and then negatively comparing their performance with schools full of middle and upper income kids. Sorry, you can't compare apples with canary melons.

If you break out the scores of kids at Hughes and SL from similar backgrounds to those at Thoreau or Carson, you find that they perform equally well and matriculate to equally competitive universities. So what is the big f@#$ing problem?

So why don't you get into Hughes and help those poor kids achieve? What are you going to do to help the underprivileged right here under your nose? Are you going to continue to pool them together in failing schools, or are you going to demand that each and every community share the burden for raising them up. I get it, you work full time so you really want the schools to do your job for you. You don't want to have to think about the 'others.' You could do what I did and retire from work, live in a smaller house, drive a smaller car, and get your ass into the schools and help instead of just complaining that others aren't doing their jobs properly.

Don't switch subjects.
CAPS is not necessarily anti-RD, it opposes this RD for its particular situation: even Dean Titsdat states: from a purely facility point of view, the RD is not needed. The school board is using RD to offload their responsiblity/accountabilty.

All tax payer loses in this RD, including SLHS.

One problem was the RD was done illegally re: Virginia law.

Second problem is RD did not consider Langley.

3rd problem is SLHS PTA president and crones improperly and secretively pushed an agenda on folks outside of her community.

4th problem is that IB is substandard in certain respects...it is substandard re: math and science, and kids who move in or out of an IB school to an AP school cannot get the diploma. And if you do not get the diploma, you are stigmatized, whereas in AP, there is no stigma from taking just one or two classes because there is no diploma. There is more also.

Regarding these problems, had the RD been done legally, there would be nothing to do but suck it up. Had the RD fairly considered all surrounding areas and had not been improperly influenced by a handful of upper class white mommies, it would have not been so galling. Had SL been an AP school, most could have overlooked the first 3 problems.

This particular RD sucks, and you know it. Either a) you have no kid in the mix, so are merely being provactive, b) you have a kid in the mix and are extremely non-empathetic, or c) you are among the upper class white minority who is afraid of your neighbors, and wants to bring in more whites to feel more safe. Go away....the judge will give his answer soon. I expect the SL mommies will be terribly upset in a week. I cannot wait.



Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's face it. Anti-RD was all about making sure
> that some kids don't have to attend school with
> too many kids from a different socio-economic
> background. Anti-RD was all about keeping our
> schools segregated by socio-economics. Anti-RD
> was all about pooling all of the under-performing
> kids in one school and then negatively comparing
> their performance with schools full of middle and
> upper income kids. Sorry, you can't compare
> apples with canary melons.
>
> If you break out the scores of kids at Hughes and
> SL from similar backgrounds to those at Thoreau or
> Carson, you find that they perform equally well
> and matriculate to equally competitive
> universities. So what is the big f@#$ing problem?

Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's face it. Anti-RD was all about making sure
> that some kids don't have to attend school with
> too many kids from a different socio-economic
> background. Anti-RD was all about keeping our
> schools segregated by socio-economics. Anti-RD
> was all about pooling all of the under-performing
> kids in one school and then negatively comparing
> their performance with schools full of middle and
> upper income kids. Sorry, you can't compare
> apples with canary melons.

Schrodinger,
Learn a little about Pro-RD SL's relationship to McNair ES. Then try posting.

really now Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One problem was the RD was done illegally re:
> Virginia law.
>
> Second problem is RD did not consider Langley.
>
> 3rd problem is SLHS PTA president and crones
> improperly and secretively pushed an agenda on
> folks outside of her community.
>
> 4th problem is that IB is substandard in certain
> respects...it is substandard re: math and science,
> and kids who move in or out of an IB school to an
> AP school cannot get the diploma. And if you do
> not get the diploma, you are stigmatized, whereas
> in AP, there is no stigma from taking just one or
> two classes because there is no diploma. There is
> more also.
>
> Regarding these problems, had the RD been done
> legally, there would be nothing to do but suck it
> up. Had the RD fairly considered all surrounding
> areas and had not been improperly influenced by a
> handful of upper class white mommies, it would
> have not been so galling. Had SL been an AP
> school, most could have overlooked the first 3
> problems.
>
> This particular RD sucks, and you know it. Either
> a) you have no kid in the mix, so are merely being
> provactive, b) you have a kid in the mix and are
> extremely non-empathetic, or c) you are among the
> upper class white minority who is afraid of your
> neighbors, and wants to bring in more whites to
> feel more safe. Go away....the judge will give
> his answer soon. I expect the SL mommies will be
> terribly upset in a week. I cannot wait.
>
>
>

5th problem - it was forced on communities who were clearly against it

This RD was not necessary and was not useful - even including Langley wouldn't have made it necessary or useful

my bad Wrote:

So sorry to confuse everyone. I meant to compare
> South Lakes to Mt Vernon-not SOCO.
>
> They are both IB schools, underenrolled, high FRM,
> recently renovated, etc.
>
> I just think it is interesting that South Lakes is
> so urgent and Mt Vernon is ignored.

The simple reason is that Mt Vernon school board rep, Dan Storck doesn't want it redistricted. He says it's too far out of the way and no one wants to go there. Therefore, no redistricing. Stu wanted South Lakes redistricted. Storck doesn't want his school redistricted.

Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The predictable response from the Neenster. No TJ
> kid could possibly drop out!! I guess she has
> never heard of mental breakdowns or other health
> issues.
>
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> I don't think
> > the TJ students are true high school dropouts.

Oh? Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how many TJ students had mental breakdowns and dropped out last year. Staff should have that information since those students clearly couldn't handled TJ and should not have been admitted. Since staff is not aware of these children who are having mental breakdowns and dropping out of TJ, perhaps you could inform them, and us. Exactly how many students had such breakdowns? In what grades? Girls or boys?

Please, fill us in.

Schrodinger's cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's face it. Anti-RD was all about making sure
> that some kids don't have to attend school with
> too many kids from a different socio-economic
> background. Anti-RD was all about keeping our
> schools segregated by socio-economics. Anti-RD
> was all about pooling all of the under-performing
> kids in one school and then negatively comparing
> their performance with schools full of middle and
> upper income kids. Sorry, you can't compare
> apples with canary melons.
>
> If you break out the scores of kids at Hughes and
> SL from similar backgrounds to those at Thoreau or
> Carson, you find that they perform equally well
> and matriculate to equally competitive
> universities. So what is the big f@#$ing problem?

Exactly. There was no problem. Therefore no redistricting was necessary.

BTW, Richmond has all the Black students clumped together and they do better than Blacks in FCPS.

Wrong again, Neenster. There is a problem when a school faced with teaching low-income kids is surrounded by schools that get no responsibility and all of the ability to bash and blame the schools for the very problems that they want to be insulated from. Why should schools like SL have to suffer the ignorant fools at schools like Madison who like to pretend that they are superior just because their schools lack the populations that suppress the test scores?

As to kids having mental health issues and leaving school, did it ever occur to you that the reason could be beyond not 'cutting it' at TJ. What if a kid just had a predilection for depression, irrespective of their IQ or place of education. You are such a simple-minded fool. You do provide much humor on this site - the laughing at you not with you kind. Be consoled that God blesses even fools like you.

I see Schrodinger's cat has no response...what a pussy!


5th problem Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> really now Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One problem was the RD was done illegally re:
> > Virginia law.
> >
> > Second problem is RD did not consider Langley.
> >
> > 3rd problem is SLHS PTA president and crones
> > improperly and secretively pushed an agenda on
> > folks outside of her community.
> >
> > 4th problem is that IB is substandard in
> certain
> > respects...it is substandard re: math and
> science,
> > and kids who move in or out of an IB school to
> an
> > AP school cannot get the diploma. And if you
> do
> > not get the diploma, you are stigmatized,
> whereas
> > in AP, there is no stigma from taking just one
> or
> > two classes because there is no diploma. There
> is
> > more also.
> >
> > Regarding these problems, had the RD been done
> > legally, there would be nothing to do but suck
> it
> > up. Had the RD fairly considered all
> surrounding
> > areas and had not been improperly influenced by
> a
> > handful of upper class white mommies, it would
> > have not been so galling. Had SL been an AP
> > school, most could have overlooked the first 3
> > problems.
> >
> > This particular RD sucks, and you know it.
> Either
> > a) you have no kid in the mix, so are merely
> being
> > provactive, b) you have a kid in the mix and
> are
> > extremely non-empathetic, or c) you are among
> the
> > upper class white minority who is afraid of
> your
> > neighbors, and wants to bring in more whites to
> > feel more safe. Go away....the judge will give
> > his answer soon. I expect the SL mommies will
> be
> > terribly upset in a week. I cannot wait.
> >
> >
> >
>
> 5th problem - it was forced on communities who
> were clearly against it
>
> This RD was not necessary and was not useful -
> even including Langley wouldn't have made it
> necessary or useful

Schrodinger's Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrong again, Neenster. There is a problem when a
> school faced with teaching low-income kids is
> surrounded by schools that get no responsibility
> and all of the ability to bash and blame the
> schools for the very problems that they want to be
> insulated from. Why should schools like SL have
> to suffer the ignorant fools at schools like
> Madison who like to pretend that they are superior
> just because their schools lack the populations
> that suppress the test scores?
>
>

bitter?

so your solution is to pump someone-else's kids into the mix at the failing schools and run?

if you think that's the issue, why not take promising kids from the failing schools and bus them into the successful schools? That seems to be more likely to succeed - but you'd have to own up to the problem.

approach A - put more kids into an environment which is failing (preferably someone-else's kids)

approach B - take the at-risk with potential kids into an environment which is succeeding

approach C - invest in the failing school, get the low performing communities to take responsibility for their own educational success and get it to the state where families want to send their kids (e.g. make SLHS a magnet with its shiny new facilities)

low income does not equate to low performance - low expectations do. Families have to take responsibility for their own kids educational success - its not my kids' job to do that for them. In FFX we agree to pay high taxes to help where help is needed - at at SL we invest 30% more in staff:student ratios, so why the whining?

My kids' educational future is not part of one of your social experiments

Coercing families to send their kids to a failing school is flat out wrong and its just not necessary or effective

wrong way round Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>why not take
> promising kids from the failing schools and bus
> them into the successful schools? That seems to be
> more likely to succeed - but you'd have to own up
> to the problem.
>

Why do you think this approach would work? What makes a school successful? Aside from income and fewer FRM/ESOL students, what is different about Langley and Oakton that make them work in your opinion? Simply AP versus IB in the RD case? And if you take those factors out are there truly any differences?

How do you determine who is "promising"? Do successful schools currently only take "promising" students? Do they have the right to kick out students who aren't "promising"? That is the crux; public schools take all students, including students from families who either choose not to be involved in their kids school (and being involved isn't simply being in the PTA) or can't participate due to work or other issues. Thus, some neighborhoods have more families compromised by time, work needs, language issues, lower incomes as evidenced by mortgages they can afford etc. (which can affect PTA fundraising, field trip support, and all the extras that wealthier PTAs in some schools obtain).

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wrong way round Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >why not take
> > promising kids from the failing schools and bus
> > them into the successful schools? That seems to
> be
> > more likely to succeed - but you'd have to own
> up
> > to the problem.
> >
>
> Why do you think this approach would work? What
> makes a school successful? Aside from income and
> fewer FRM/ESOL students, what is different about
> Langley and Oakton that make them work in your
> opinion? Simply AP versus IB in the RD case? And
> if you take those factors out are there truly any
> differences?
>
> How do you determine who is "promising"? Do
> successful schools currently only take "promising"
> students? Do they have the right to kick out
> students who aren't "promising"? That is the
> crux; public schools take all students, including
> students from families who either choose not to be
> involved in their kids school (and being involved
> isn't simply being in the PTA) or can't
> participate due to work or other issues. Thus,
> some neighborhoods have more families compromised
> by time, work needs, language issues, lower
> incomes as evidenced by mortgages they can afford
> etc. (which can affect PTA fundraising, field trip
> support, and all the extras that wealthier PTAs in
> some schools obtain).

I'm not an advocate of busing - you're right, its riddled with problems - its there as an example of the alternatives available. I am an advocate of fixing schools and making families and communities responsible,

expanding on success seems to be a better approach than expanding on poor performance.

its interesting to compare apples and apples - such as SAT scores

asian - oakton 1727 south lakes 1565
black - oakton 1411 south lakes 1360
hispanic - oakton 1588 south lakes 1497

economic disadvantage - oakton 1478 south lakes 1402
limited english - oakton 1550 south lakes 1179

This is even ignoring the substantial differences in the relative rates at which SATs are taken by each group at the two schools.

So why take kids from a school that's working and move them to one which isn't?

I'm not sure that "compromised by time, work needs, language issues, lower incomes" is a justification for not taking responsibility for your children's educational success.

Most people in this area come from modest or poor backgrounds - that's been the historical reality of the last 50 years. Did we succeed because of PTA fund-raising? No, we succeeded because our families believed in education, sacrificed for it and made us work for it

As a family we certainly work two more than full time jobs and certainly can't afford a great falls mortgage. We work hard to pay world class taxes for a world class education and do what's needed in the evenings, weekends and vacations to work with our kids to make sure they're ready for a brutal global economy.

At some point you have to ask, if presented with educational opportunities including extra resources when do families and local communities have to take some of their own responsibility - rather than expecting other people to in-fill their kids.

No-one on this forum has objected to injecting additional resources where needed, and paying the high taxes required to do that - but many do object to having their kids selected by a corrupted political process to become pawns in a social experiment.

If something's broken you fix it. SLHS could have been made into a school which attracted its neighbors - but it was easier to hide the problem by changing the demographics and jumbling the numbers up for a few years

RD was just not the right approach and rolling over whole communities against their clear will was wrong

wrong way round Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> its interesting to compare apples and apples -
> such as SAT scores
>
> asian - oakton 1727 south lakes 1565
> black - oakton 1411 south lakes 1360
> hispanic - oakton 1588 south lakes 1497
>
> economic disadvantage - oakton 1478 south lakes
> 1402
> limited english - oakton 1550 south lakes 1179
>
>
> No-one on this forum has objected to injecting
> additional resources where needed, and paying the
> high taxes required to do that - but many do
> object to having their kids selected by a
> corrupted political process to become pawns in a
> social experiment.
>
> If something's broken you fix it. SLHS could have
> been made into a school which attracted its
> neighbors - but it was easier to hide the problem
> by changing the demographics and jumbling the
> numbers up for a few years
>

Why did you leave caucasion off the SAT scores? Where did you get these breakdowns?

And by the way, many on this forum have objected to additional resources and their taxes paying for them.

Yes, if something is broken, you should fix it..how do you propose to fix it? In particular you discuss families being involved and have alluded to the fact that families in SL must not be involved otherwise their stats would be different...so how does SLs "fix" family involvement?

I don't have the numbers, but they are somewhere....

I heard that SL had a lower student ratio to teachers than Oakton, Madison, Westfields, etc. Is that true?

Does anyone have the actual numbers of students who have been pupil placed out of SL or Hughes? Those pupil placed back to Madison, Oakton, Chantilly, and Westfields.







curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wrong way round Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > its interesting to compare apples and apples -
> > such as SAT scores
> >
> > asian - oakton 1727 south lakes 1565
> > black - oakton 1411 south lakes 1360
> > hispanic - oakton 1588 south lakes 1497
> >
> > economic disadvantage - oakton 1478 south lakes
> > 1402
> > limited english - oakton 1550 south lakes 1179
> >
> >
> > No-one on this forum has objected to injecting
> > additional resources where needed, and paying
> the
> > high taxes required to do that - but many do
> > object to having their kids selected by a
> > corrupted political process to become pawns in
> a
> > social experiment.
> >
> > If something's broken you fix it. SLHS could
> have
> > been made into a school which attracted its
> > neighbors - but it was easier to hide the
> problem
> > by changing the demographics and jumbling the
> > numbers up for a few years
> >
>
> Why did you leave caucasion off the SAT scores?
> Where did you get these breakdowns?
>
> And by the way, many on this forum have objected
> to additional resources and their taxes paying for
> them.
>
> Yes, if something is broken, you should fix
> it..how do you propose to fix it? In particular
> you discuss families being involved and have
> alluded to the fact that families in SL must not
> be involved otherwise their stats would be
> different...so how does SLs "fix" family
> involvement?

curious Wrote:
> Why did you leave caucasion off the SAT scores?
> Where did you get these breakdowns? ...
>
-----------
Go to:
http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/directory/
Type in the school name and then press "Find."
Click on "Profile"
Click on "Test Results"
Click on "Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT)"

The answer is:
White - Oakton 1734 (with 355 taking the test) / South Lakes 1730 (with 137 taking the test)

Mary Ellen Wrote:
> I heard that SL had a lower student ratio to
> teachers than Oakton, Madison, Westfields, etc.
> Is that true?
>
-----------------
These numbers have been posted before. They are available from the FCPS web site from the budget projections BEFORE the redistricting.

FY 2009 Staff
SouthLakes 182
Chantilly 294.1
McLean 173.4
Madison 181.2
Herndon 205
Oakton 212.9
Westfield 273.9
Langley 185.7
Average 213.5

FY 2009 $/student // students/staff member
SouthLakes $8,451 // 7.6
Chantilly $7,177 // 9.4
McLean $6,742 // 10.2
Madison $6,301 // 10.3
Herndon $6,619 // 10.5
Oakton $6,198 // 10.7
Westfield $6,166 // 11.1
Langley $6,020 // 11.2
Average $6,709 // 10.2

The South Lakes community is correct when it states it has a higher percentage of "specail Education" students than the neighboring schools"

FY 2009 # "Regular" Students / # Spec Ed Students
SouthLakes 1184 / 205
Chantilly 2546 / 207
McLean 1629 / 143
Madison 1746 / 122
Herndon 2015 / 145
Oakton 2089 / 188
Westfield 2812 / 238
Langley 1952 / 132
Average 1997 / 173

FY 2009 % Spec Ed
SouthLakes 14.8%
Chantilly 7.5%
McLean 8.1%
Madison 6.5%
Herndon 6.7%
Oakton 8.3%
Westfield 7.8%
Langley 6.3%
Average 8.0%

However, the staffing ratio for "regular" students still shows South Lakes had a significantly lower staffing ratio "than Oakton, Madison, Westfields, etc."

FY 2009 Non-Spec Ed Staff / # "Regular" Students / "Regular" Staffing Ratio
South Lakes 129 / 1184 / 9.2
Chantilly 232 / 2546 / 11.0
McLean 140 / 1629 / 11.6
Madison 145 / 1746 / 12.0
Herndon 170 / 2015 / 11.8
Oakton 171 / 2089 / 12.2
Westfield / 223 / 2812 / 12.6
Langley 158 / 1952 / 12.4
Average 171 / 1997 / 11.7

Do you think now might be the time to sit back and ask should the school board continue pushing the IB programme in schools that have a lot of academic challenges?

Are too many of our greatest resources that can make a difference....teacher....being allocated to the IB programme? Look at the numbers of how few students are graduating with the IB diploma. I don't know, but are the "best" teachers being assigned to the IB classes? Teachers who have high level teaching skills are needed to deal with the challenges found in students who are not "IB diploma" candidates.

Are these non IB diploma candidates being short changed at SL? Will the situation only become worse when the new students from the higher income neighborhoods are pulled into SL? How many will fill the IB classes?

Sure the percentages of ESOL and Free and Reduced Lunches will go down, but Will the outcome of this redistricting just add another level of heartache to those students at SL who are not part of the "elite" IB diploma student group?

Just asking. Maybe some SLPTA or SL folks would like to "set the record straight" by telling me that I am wrong. Welcome honest input and will not accept the name calling that I am a racist as a positive contributiion to the dialogue.

Open to input.







curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wrong way round Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >why not take
> > promising kids from the failing schools and bus
> > them into the successful schools? That seems to
> be
> > more likely to succeed - but you'd have to own
> up
> > to the problem.
> >
>
> Why do you think this approach would work? What
> makes a school successful? Aside from income and
> fewer FRM/ESOL students, what is different about
> Langley and Oakton that make them work in your
> opinion? Simply AP versus IB in the RD case? And
> if you take those factors out are there truly any
> differences?
>
> How do you determine who is "promising"? Do
> successful schools currently only take "promising"
> students? Do they have the right to kick out
> students who aren't "promising"? That is the
> crux; public schools take all students, including
> students from families who either choose not to be
> involved in their kids school (and being involved
> isn't simply being in the PTA) or can't
> participate due to work or other issues. Thus,
> some neighborhoods have more families compromised
> by time, work needs, language issues, lower
> incomes as evidenced by mortgages they can afford
> etc. (which can affect PTA fundraising, field trip
> support, and all the extras that wealthier PTAs in
> some schools obtain).

Why hasn't this information enter the dialogue? I bet at 50% of the public does not have a clue that the teacher student ratio at SL is that low as compared to other schools.

Thanks for the information.

Would be interesting to see the teacher ratio to students in the High Level diploma classes.

If I am correct, there are 3 levels of curricula taught at SL and at other IB schools: Regular Course, Standard Level Course, and High Level Courses.

Would be interesting to see the breakdown of teacher to student ratio in the High Level Courses and compare to the Regular Courses .

Was this information ever presented at any of the town hall meetings? Or made available on the school board website?





Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mary Ellen Wrote:
> > I heard that SL had a lower student ratio to
> > teachers than Oakton, Madison, Westfields, etc.
>
> > Is that true?
> >
> -----------------
> These numbers have been posted before. They are
> available from the FCPS web site from the budget
> projections BEFORE the redistricting.
>
> FY 2009 Staff
> SouthLakes 182
> Chantilly 294.1
> McLean 173.4
> Madison 181.2
> Herndon 205
> Oakton 212.9
> Westfield 273.9
> Langley 185.7
> Average 213.5
>
> FY 2009 $/student // students/staff member
> SouthLakes $8,451 // 7.6
> Chantilly $7,177 // 9.4
> McLean $6,742 // 10.2
> Madison $6,301 // 10.3
> Herndon $6,619 // 10.5
> Oakton $6,198 // 10.7
> Westfield $6,166 // 11.1
> Langley $6,020 // 11.2
> Average $6,709 // 10.2
>
> The South Lakes community is correct when it
> states it has a higher percentage of "specail
> Education" students than the neighboring schools"
>
> FY 2009 # "Regular" Students / # Spec Ed
> Students
> SouthLakes 1184 / 205
> Chantilly 2546 / 207
> McLean 1629 / 143
> Madison 1746 / 122
> Herndon 2015 / 145
> Oakton 2089 / 188
> Westfield 2812 / 238
> Langley 1952 / 132
> Average 1997 / 173
>
> FY 2009 % Spec Ed
> SouthLakes 14.8%
> Chantilly 7.5%
> McLean 8.1%
> Madison 6.5%
> Herndon 6.7%
> Oakton 8.3%
> Westfield 7.8%
> Langley 6.3%
> Average 8.0%
>
> However, the staffing ratio for "regular" students
> still shows South Lakes had a significantly lower
> staffing ratio "than Oakton, Madison, Westfields,
> etc."
>
> FY 2009 Non-Spec Ed Staff / # "Regular" Students /
> "Regular" Staffing Ratio
> South Lakes 129 / 1184 / 9.2
> Chantilly 232 / 2546 / 11.0
> McLean 140 / 1629 / 11.6
> Madison 145 / 1746 / 12.0
> Herndon 170 / 2015 / 11.8
> Oakton 171 / 2089 / 12.2
> Westfield / 223 / 2812 / 12.6
> Langley 158 / 1952 / 12.4
> Average 171 / 1997 / 11.7

Mary Ellen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why hasn't this information enter the dialogue? I
> bet at 50% of the public does not have a clue that
> the teacher student ratio at SL is that low as
> compared to other schools.
>


so you're suggesting that SLHS problem was a shortage of teachers in mainstream ed?

we needed an RD to fix that?

where's the logic in adding more kids rather than more teachers?

truly bizarre

even less reason for RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so you're suggesting that SLHS problem was a
> shortage of teachers in mainstream ed?
>
> we needed an RD to fix that?
>
> where's the logic in adding more kids rather than
> more teachers?
>
> truly bizarre

I don't think that's what she was suggesting. Perhaps, after you reflect on what staffing ratios mean, the two of you could have an off-line and coordinate how you best want to attack SL and the other "failing" schools.

But thanks for the laugh.

As far as I can tell, outside of TJ no teacher only teaches AP or IB HL 'top level' students. Teachers have "regular" sections as well.

Concerned Parent Wrote:
> I don't know, but are the "best" teachers being
> assigned to the IB classes? Teachers who have
> high level teaching skills are needed to deal with
> the challenges found in students who are not "IB
> diploma" candidates.

Not SLPTSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> But thanks for the laugh.


I don't make the performance figures up - the county just makes them as hard to work with as possible

SLHS and Hughes clearly have a performance problem when compared to their neighboring schools (as shown in the county figures). No-one has ever shown any evidence to the contrary. If you can't discuss the reasons, how are you going find a solution?

If you're not prepared to have the performance discussion don't coerce other communities to send their kids.

If you need more teachers ask for more teachers - don't just demand someone-else's kids and then yell racism.

The county makes it very difficult to unpick performance in special ed, ESOL, GT centers and mainstream - all the better to justify imposing poorly thought through RD

Its not a socio-economic issue, its not a race issue, its not a facilities issue - its an educational achievement issue - and when I last looked, that's what schools are there for, what we pay for and what the SB is accountable for.

The deeper you look, the less justification there was for this RD and the more corrupted you see that the process was

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious Wrote:
> > Why did you leave caucasion off the SAT scores?
>
> > Where did you get these breakdowns? ...
> >
> -----------
> Go to:
> http://www.fcps.edu/suptapps/directory/
> Type in the school name and then press "Find."
> Click on "Profile"
> Click on "Test Results"
> Click on "Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT)"
>
> The answer is:
> White - Oakton 1734 (with 355 taking the test) /
> South Lakes 1730 (with 137 taking the test)

Thanks..clearly no difference within that group. The numbers taking the test are only relevant if the percentage of students not taking it who normally would (i.e numbers in that category that are juniors) are significantly different. The numbers taking it that you have posted are perhaps reflective of the numbers of students within that category at the school.

The numbers reported earlier within the other categories, that do show differences, might conceivably be reflective of newer immigrant families whose incomes are lower, and whose parents have yet to obtain a command of English.

I venture to say that students who would obtain a certain SAT score at Oakton would still obtain that score at SL, if they end up at SL.

The posters discussing the ratio of student to teacher are forgetting that there are caps on self contained special ed classes and ESOL classes of 10 -15 students per teacher, and I believe SL has more of those students including their MR.

IB doesn't have a higher ratio,and often the standard level students are in the same class as the first year of higher level students.

Quite a bit of research demonstrates that SAT scores are reflective of parental income. If you know the zipcode you know the score. I do think many are looking at the scores as if that will tell them their child will be doomed if they end up at a lower performing school. That is rather silly and short sighted.

Perhaps IB should be a magnet, but that should be the "fight" versus going on and on about the fears of being in a "lower performing school"

curious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Quite a bit of research demonstrates that SAT
> scores are reflective of parental income. If you
> know the zipcode you know the score. I do think
> many are looking at the scores as if that will
> tell them their child will be doomed if they end
> up at a lower performing school. That is rather
> silly and short sighted.
>


Which is what you'd expect - families and communities who have a strong continued focus on education will tend to be more financially successful - even more so in the future. The two will be very strongly correlated.

Similarly, its not unreasonable to want your children to be in a school environment where their peers share the same emphasis on educational attainment. That's why so many people live in FFX, work long hours, sit through Satan's own commute and get involved in as many extra-curricular activities as their jobs allow.

For the SB to round on a community and say "sorry, your kids have to move to fix this other school because we have an ESOL/socio-economic problem and frankly you're not rich enough to get our protection" is just not acceptable.

even less reason for RD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Quite a bit of research demonstrates that SAT
> > scores are reflective of parental income. If
> you
> > know the zipcode you know the score. I do
> think
> > many are looking at the scores as if that will
> > tell them their child will be doomed if they
> end
> > up at a lower performing school. That is
> rather
> > silly and short sighted.
> >
>
>
> Which is what you'd expect - families and
> communities who have a strong continued focus on
> education will tend to be more financially
> successful - even more so in the future. The two
> will be very strongly correlated.
>
> Similarly, its not unreasonable to want your
> children to be in a school environment where their
> peers share the same emphasis on educational
> attainment. That's why so many people live in FFX,
> work long hours, sit through Satan's own commute
> and get involved in as many extra-curricular
> activities as their jobs allow.
>
> For the SB to round on a community and say "sorry,
> your kids have to move to fix this other school
> because we have an ESOL/socio-economic problem and
> frankly you're not rich enough to get our
> protection" is just not acceptable.


While it may not be acceptable to you, my point was your child's SAT won't decrease simply because they are now in a different school.

And folks at SL I assume do have the desire for educational achievement, they might just not be at the same starting point as your family in terms of current income and educational background.