Like what, endorse Tara Brach? Go to Orlando? Hire all kinds of consultants? Give themselves a raise? Hide in Gatehouse?

The point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The point you're missing is that if kids are doing
> the asking it's because their parents allow them
> to.

We seem to be in agreement that kids are doing the asking and that parents are allowing them to.

But taking it to the next step - that the ones doing the asking are the ones getting the pledges - seems to be problematic, for some reason.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The point you're missing is that if kids are
> doing
> > the asking it's because their parents allow
> them
> > to.
>
> We seem to be in agreement that kids are doing the
> asking and that parents are allowing them to.
>
> But taking it to the next step - that the ones
> doing the asking are the ones getting the pledges
> - seems to be problematic, for some reason.

Only problematic to you and a few other people. Don't let your kids ask for pledges if you don't want to. Simple as that

Let's cancel Boosterthon and see who REALLY complains. PTA members missing those trips to Atlanta!

Making little kids beg for money for cheap Chinese plastic is disgusting. How low can we go?

FCPS is in the can Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Making little kids beg for money for cheap Chinese
> plastic is disgusting. How low can we go?


No one is "making" kids do anything. Parents decide if their children can participate in the fundraiser. Then parents, and or kids if their parents let them ask for pledges, raise pledges for the fun run to support their school. The school or PTA uses that money to purchase things like technology and instructional programs for the kids. Our school pays for our entire Spanish program with the money we raise from Boosterthon. That program benefits all children whether they raised money for the fun run or not

i just found a program to cut.

What is the point of collecting the money to buy stuff if you are spending more instructional hours money to do it? I don't know how much more of this I kind listen to.......

You are out to lunch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the point of collecting the money to buy
> stuff if you are spending more instructional hours
> money to do it? I don't know how much more of this
> I kind listen to.......


....CAN listen to. I need more coffee and I need to put in my contacts.

You are out to lunch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the point of collecting the money to buy
> stuff if you are spending more instructional hours
> money to do it? I don't know how much more of this
> I kind listen to

The entire program takes about 2 hours of time over two weeks. Hardly a dent in instructional time. The following math isn't exact but it's probably fairly close. If a teacher makes $20/hour and there are 30 teachers that's $1200 in salary for 30 teachers @ 2 hours per teacher. On average schools profit $30,000 from the program.

Kids don't spend 100% of their time buried in a text book. Character education programs are already budgeted in to the school year. This program qualifies as a program under national education standards.

Your logic is flawed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are out to lunch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What is the point of collecting the money to
> buy
> > stuff if you are spending more instructional
> hours
> > money to do it? I don't know how much more of
> this
> > I kind listen to
>
> The entire program takes about 2 hours of time
> over two weeks. Hardly a dent in instructional
> time. The following math isn't exact but it's
> probably fairly close. If a teacher makes $20/hour
> and there are 30 teachers that's $1200 in salary
> for 30 teachers @ 2 hours per teacher. On average
> schools profit $30,000 from the program.
>
> Kids don't spend 100% of their time buried in a
> text book. Character education programs are
> already budgeted in to the school year. This
> program qualifies as a program under national
> education standards.


They aren't even contracted with the school system by and large. Since when do things set up by volunteers qualify for this? What qualifications do these people have? Since when is a fundraiser part of the instructional program? They aren't even supposed to use the instructional program as a fundraiser. The FCPS contract, if it was even being used, says that these clowns are not to interfere with the school day.

Who are you?

The cost of instructional time includes more than teacher salary. Somebody calculated it at $13.60 per student per instructional hour. This includes building and grounds, administration, etc. etc. etc.

lkj()iujhtt% Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The cost of instructional time includes more than
> teacher salary. Somebody calculated it at $13.60
> per student per instructional hour.

Arguing about whether $13.60 - or whatever - is a lot or a little will last forever.

Either it's appropriate to spend the school's time and money for fundraising - especially PTA/O fundraising - or it's not. The LURG seems clear:
"The regular school day schedule should not be disrupted, nor should the children be expected to give up their free time"

By saying the time/money that the school spends is trivial, you're trying to create your own exemption - a slippery slope if there ever was one.

If you want the officially create such an exemption, you, as a member of your local PTA, are entitled to submit such a resolution to the Virginia PTA for a vote at their annual conference.
How to Write A Resolution (PDF)
The conference is July 16-18th this year and proposals for resolutions need to be submitted 60 days prior.

PTA doesn't mean squat when you are talking using publicly funded time to raise funds for a non-profit or a school system, particularly when school regulations prohibit this.

The Boosterthon "character lessons" are for the most part, crap. They are a distraction from the fact that this is a for profit fundraising program.

Given the diversionary nature of the lessons, it is essential, from Boosterthon's perspective, that they operate "as part of the class" (including the Boosterthon people eating with the kids etc.). Once you take this away, it falls apart. If Boosterthon had to operate outside of school hours, it would wither and die.

You mean they go to lunch with the kids? This is weird. Why are they allowing fundraisers to lurk around the children and rope them in? "Mom-they ATE LUNCH with us. I have to get some pledges." God help us all.

It's possible different Boosterthon crews do slightly different things, I suppose. But my daughter says they didn't eat lunch with the kids (this was last year).

It's possible different Boosterthon crews do slightly different things, I suppose.
But my daughter says they didn't eat lunch with the kids (this was last year).

basic issue! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Boosterthon "character lessons" are for the
> most part, crap. They are a distraction from the
> fact that this is a for profit fundraising
> program.
>
> Given the diversionary nature of the lessons, it
> is essential, from Boosterthon's perspective, that
> they operate "as part of the class" (including the
> Boosterthon people eating with the kids etc.).
> Once you take this away, it falls apart. If
> Boosterthon had to operate outside of school
> hours, it would wither and die.

How do you know the lessons are "crap"? Have you seen them in person? What basis of fact are you using to make that judgement?

I have heard of instances where the Boosterthon team eats lunch with the kids during one of the days of the program. I think that's awesome. Back when I was a kid and the Globetrotters basketball people came to our school it was really cool when they came to eat lunch with us in the lunch room. Kids love that sort of thing. Don't be so uptight about it.

Boosterthon provides a positive experience for the kids. It wouldn;t be near as positive of an experience if they had to do it outside of school hours. I for one love the experience, so do my kids and many many parents I know.

A positive experience Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Boosterthon provides a positive experience for the
> kids. It wouldn;t be near as positive of an
> experience if they had to do it outside of school
> hours. I for one love the experience, so do my
> kids and many many parents I know.

In this world - and especially in this country - there are many opportunities to give kids a "positive experience". They don't all belong inside the schools during school hours.

Of all the positive experiences, Boosterthon is allowed in because it's lucrative.

"We do not favor of the kinds of fundraising behaviors you highlighted below, regardless of their 'success' in raising funds, because it does not keep with the intended spirit of the parent raising funds on behalf of the children." -Kris at the National PTA (which is that hundred year old organization dedicated to child advocacy).

You can private message me to get Kris' contact info to tell the National PTA they got it wrong.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A positive experience Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Boosterthon provides a positive experience for
> the
> > kids. It wouldn;t be near as positive of an
> > experience if they had to do it outside of
> school
> > hours. I for one love the experience, so do my
> > kids and many many parents I know.
>
> In this world - and especially in this country -
> there are many opportunities to give kids a
> "positive experience". They don't all belong
> inside the schools during school hours.
>
> Of all the positive experiences, Boosterthon is
> allowed in because it's lucrative.
>
> "We do not favor of the kinds of fundraising
> behaviors you highlighted below, regardless of
> their 'success' in raising funds, because it does
> not keep with the intended spirit of the parent
> raising funds on behalf of the children." -Kris
> at the National PTA (which is that hundred year
> old organization dedicated to child advocacy).
>
> You can private message me to get Kris' contact
> info to tell the National PTA they got it wrong.


I had a lengthy conversation with Kris over email yesterday about a lot of the points people are bringing up on here I can tell you that you're posting things out of context. Why don't you post your exact question to Kris that generated that quoted reply so everyone can see the context you're quoting??

You're quoting out of context Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NewHorizon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A positive experience Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > Boosterthon provides a positive experience
> for
> > the
> > > kids. It wouldn;t be near as positive of an
> > > experience if they had to do it outside of
> > school
> > > hours. I for one love the experience, so do
> my
> > > kids and many many parents I know.
> >
> > In this world - and especially in this country
> -
> > there are many opportunities to give kids a
> > "positive experience". They don't all belong
> > inside the schools during school hours.
> >
> > Of all the positive experiences, Boosterthon is
> > allowed in because it's lucrative.
> >
> > "We do not favor of the kinds of fundraising
> > behaviors you highlighted below, regardless of
> > their 'success' in raising funds, because it
> does
> > not keep with the intended spirit of the parent
> > raising funds on behalf of the children."
> -Kris
> > at the National PTA (which is that hundred year
> > old organization dedicated to child advocacy).
> >
> > You can private message me to get Kris' contact
> > info to tell the National PTA they got it
> wrong.
>
>
> I had a lengthy conversation with Kris over email
> yesterday about a lot of the points people are
> bringing up on here I can tell you that you're
> posting things out of context. Why don't you post
> your exact question to Kris that generated that
> quoted reply so everyone can see the context
> you're quoting??

Kris specifically told me that if parents choose to involve their kids in the pledge asking process, that that is totally ok! That its up to the parents.

All you're doing is emailing Kris with agenda specific questions then quoting replies out of context to again fit your agenda.

She even told me when I asked, that there is a certain "overly persistent person that really seems to have an agenda in mind regarding this matter" lol I'm going to guess that would be you NewHorizon.

You're quoting out of context Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't you post
> your exact question to Kris that generated that
> quoted reply so everyone can see the context
> you're quoting??

Probably outing myself, but...
=====

Thanks for writing back. I do sincerely appreciate it. I accept that the PTA policies will stand as-is. But then yes, I would like to ask for further assistance and urge you (plural) to please have a closer look at Boosterthon Fun Runs and Apex Fun Runs.

Not only are the children indeed the ones who actually call friends and relatives to directly solicit pledges - contrary to what you wrote - but some also put up public Youtube videos of themselves to solicit pledges for each lap they run. This they do this at the suggestion of the fundraising organization. See: http://www.boosterthon.com/pledgesecrets/

Example of a child's solicitation video: https://funrun.com/sponsor/a6e4b79384c682a557a87a8c8e2e1bed07682c6d

Given that the National PTA policies will stand, would the National PTA be in a position to bring this to the attention of state, district, and/or school PTAs so that the school PTAs are made aware they are out of compliance?

And then if you go back to that funrun.com page and click on the "Email" link at the top-center of the page, your Email program will pop open and show Kaylee's full name which was entered by the parent who was almost certainly unaware of this exposure. If your web browser is not configured to open Email (nothing happens when you click "Email"), then you'll need to search through all that HTML code by pressing ctrl-u and then in the new window that pops up, use ctrl-f to find Kaylee's name. After about the 5th or 6th occurrence, you'll see her last name.

Let me also mention that each Fun Run program entails having staff from the fundraising organizations enter the schools and address the kids for a period of time during normal school hours for about 7 consecutive school days.

[Kris], if I may be so bold, the National PTA has a reputation for kicking issues down to the state-level PTAs. But rather than have state-by-state patchwork solutions for these issues, I would like to respectfully suggest that the National PTA is the only organization who can step up and comprehensively address these important issues on a national level in support of its primary role as child advocate? Please let me know.

=====
... where "what you wrote" is what PTAMOM also received and is posted here:
http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/1136940/page-8.html#msg-1821285

The first line of Kris' response to this is, "It’s definitely something for us to ponder. Thanks for raising the issue. "

(The issue with revealing children's family names at funrun.com has since been remedied as mentioned at http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read.php?2,1687747,1833272,page=2#msg-1833272 .)

OK, your turn to be transparent...?

Your "overly persistent" agenda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Kris specifically told me that if parents choose
> to involve their kids in the pledge asking
> process, that that is totally ok! That its up to
> the parents.

So ask the NPTA to take down their standards which prohibit it.
If you're speaking for the vast majority of parents, this should be a slam-dunk.
And then I, for one, would concede defeat.

Comments about "agenda" are ad hominem comments.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're quoting out of context Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why don't you post
> > your exact question to Kris that generated that
> > quoted reply so everyone can see the context
> > you're quoting??
>
> Probably outing myself, but...
> =====
>

> Thanks for writing back. I do sincerely
> appreciate it. I accept that the PTA policies
> will stand as-is. But then yes, I would like to
> ask for further assistance and urge you (plural)
> to please have a closer look at Boosterthon Fun
> Runs and Apex Fun Runs.
>
> Not only are the children indeed the ones who
> actually call friends and relatives to directly
> solicit pledges - contrary to what you wrote - but
> some also put up public Youtube videos of
> themselves to solicit pledges for each lap they
> run. This they do this at the suggestion of the
> fundraising organization. See:
> http://www.boosterthon.com/pledgesecrets/
>
> Example of a child's solicitation video:
> https://funrun.com/sponsor/a6e4b79384c682a557a87a8
> c8e2e1bed07682c6d
>
> Given that the National PTA policies will stand,
> would the National PTA be in a position to bring
> this to the attention of state, district, and/or
> school PTAs so that the school PTAs are made aware
> they are out of compliance?
>
> And then if you go back to that funrun.com page
> and click on the "Email" link at the top-center of
> the page, your Email program will pop open and
> show Kaylee's full name which was entered by the
> parent who was almost certainly unaware of this
> exposure. If your web browser is not configured
> to open Email (nothing happens when you click
> "Email"), then you'll need to search through all
> that HTML code by pressing ctrl-u and then in the
> new window that pops up, use ctrl-f to find
> Kaylee's name. After about the 5th or 6th
> occurrence, you'll see her last name.
>
> Let me also mention that each Fun Run program
> entails having staff from the fundraising
> organizations enter the schools and address the
> kids for a period of time during normal school
> hours for about 7 consecutive school days.
>
> [Kris], if I may be so bold, the National PTA has
> a reputation for kicking issues down to the
> state-level PTAs. But rather than have
> state-by-state patchwork solutions for these
> issues, I would like to respectfully suggest that
> the National PTA is the only organization who can
> step up and comprehensively address these
> important issues on a national level in support of
> its primary role as child advocate? Please let me
> know.
>

> =====
> ... where "what you wrote" is what PTAMOM
> also received and is posted here:
> http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/113
> 6940/page-8.html#msg-1821285
>
> The first line of Kris' response to this is,
> "It’s definitely something for us to ponder.
> Thanks for raising the issue. "
>
> (The issue with revealing children's family names
> at funrun.com has since been remedied as mentioned
> at
> http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read.php?2
> ,1687747,1833272,page=2#msg-1833272 .)
>
> OK, your turn to be transparent...?

To address this part in your email to Kris "Not only are the children indeed the ones who actually call friends and relatives to directly solicit pledges - contrary to what you wrote":

"contrary to what you wrote"...so even Kris knows that parents are the driver in these fundraisers and only involve the kids if they as parents choose to.

Thank you for being transparent and posting your email to Kris. Judging by your email, it's apparent that you've been quoting Kris out of context as if she agrees with your position. Yet it's apparent that she doesn't. And also apparent that you definitely are the "overly persistent person". Her reply to you is a standard thanks for your email now on to the next thing sort of reply.

Kris is very aware of these sorts of programs and thinks they are a neat idea and supports the character education component that is included with them.

A previous poster mentioned how the liberal mindset works. Your posts are a prime example of that.

I do commend you for posting that email though, even though by doing so you had to have known that it sheds light on the fact that Nat PTA doesn't strongly agree with you as you've been implying.

Many parents and many PTA's support these healthy fundraisers and love the fact that it includes a character education component. If you don't like it that's your prerogative.

PTA doesn't mean squat when you are talking using publicly funded time to raise funds for a non-profit or a school system, particularly when school regulations prohibit this.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your "overly persistent" agenda Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Kris specifically told me that if parents
> choose
> > to involve their kids in the pledge asking
> > process, that that is totally ok! That its up
> to
> > the parents.
>
> So ask the NPTA to take down their standards which
> prohibit it.
> If you're speaking for the vast majority of
> parents, this should be a slam-dunk.
> And then I, for one, would concede defeat.
>
> Comments about "agenda" are ad hominem comments.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying National PTA standards prohibit parents from involving their children in a fundraiser if they choose to?? I don't think Nat PTA has rules prohibiting parents of being able to make decisions for their children. Now you're on a mission to save every child from their parents. Wow

You're rediculous

thanks for posting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Judging by your email, it's
> apparent that you've been quoting Kris out of
> context as if she agrees with your position. Yet
> it's apparent that she doesn't.

I don't see that. But I leave it to each onlooker to decide for themselves.
That's what transparency is for. ;-)

Comments about "liberal mindset" (which would be humorous to those who know me) are ad hominem comments.

Round and round Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PTA doesn't mean squat when you are talking using
> publicly funded time to raise funds for a
> non-profit or a school system, particularly when
> school regulations prohibit this.

There's a lot of truth to that. But PTA standards DO have some influence. It's just that generally, local units are simply unaware of them.

But yes, non-PTA avenues are still being explored.

just wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So if I understand you correctly, you're saying
> National PTA standards prohibit parents from
> involving their children in a fundraiser if they
> choose to?? I don't think Nat PTA has rules
> prohibiting parents of being able to make
> decisions for their children. Now you're on a
> mission to save every child from their parents.
> Wow
>
> You're rediculous

The PTA standards say no such thing. And I didn't say that they did. Did you read National PTA's clarification posted by PTAMOM?

What they're saying is, "children absolutely can participate in school or PTA sponsored activities like healthy fun runs and walks (e.g., Fire Up Your Feet!), but it is the parents who solicit donations and raise funds on behalf of the children – not the children themselves. Frequently, we see parents set up fundraising pages to solicit donations on behalf of their child and their child’s school or PTA, and then the parent reaches out to their friends and family to gain donations for the online fundraising page. The child may participate in a sponsored fun run or walk that is linked to the fundraiser, but only as a participant in the experience – not as a method for gaining incremental donations. (So for example, a child cannot be made to walk X miles or laps in exchange for earning a dependent donation pledge.)"

True, if parents want to allow their kids to contact registered sex offenders to solicited pledges, it's not the PTA's place to intervene.

But trying to stifle anybody's attempt to give greater awareness to the PTA standards is detrimental to what the National PTA is trying to accomplish.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PTAMOM Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > .... it sounds like they are in support of it!
> >
> > NewHorizon, did they say the same thing to you?
>
> Interesting, that's exactly - word for word
> - what I got (except, of course, you duly removed
> Kris' full name, phone numbers, etc).
> Not sure which "it" you meant when you said "in
> support of it," though.
>
> And then, yeah, what's the point of creating
> standards if nobody cares if they're followed?
>
> I've forwarded the National PTA's message to a few
> dozen PTAs around the country. Not one responded.

My PTA got one of your messages. Your name is John Koch right? You're twisting Nat PTA guidelines. Parents are the drivers in these fundraisers. Kids only participate in asking for pledges if we as parents make that choice. These fun run programs are a-ok and a lot of PTA's support them over unhealthy product sales. You're just trying to stir up controversy where none exists. We've alerted National PTA to your mass messaging of PTA groups just so they have a clear understanding of your intentions.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just wow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > So if I understand you correctly, you're saying
> > National PTA standards prohibit parents from
> > involving their children in a fundraiser if
> they
> > choose to?? I don't think Nat PTA has rules
> > prohibiting parents of being able to make
> > decisions for their children. Now you're on a
> > mission to save every child from their parents.
> > Wow
> >
> > You're rediculous
>
> The PTA standards say no such
> thing. And I didn't say that they did.
> Did you read National PTA's clarification posted
> by PTAMOM?
>
> What they're saying is, COLOR="#006400">"children absolutely can
> participate in school or PTA sponsored activities
> like healthy fun runs and walks (e.g., Fire Up
> Your Feet!), but it is the parents who solicit
> donations and raise funds on behalf of the
> children – not the children themselves.
> Frequently, we see parents set up fundraising
> pages to solicit donations on behalf of their
> child and their child’s school or PTA, and then
> the parent reaches out to their friends and family
> to gain donations for the online fundraising page.
> The child may participate in a sponsored fun run
> or walk that is linked to the fundraiser, but only
> as a participant in the experience – not as a
> method for gaining incremental donations. (So for
> example, a child cannot be made to walk X miles or
> laps in exchange for earning a dependent donation
> pledge.)"
>
> True, if parents want to allow their kids to
> contact registered sex offenders to solicited
> pledges, it's not the PTA's place to intervene.
>
> But trying to stifle anybody's attempt to give
> greater awareness to the PTA standards is
> detrimental to what the National PTA is trying to
> accomplish.

Who's contacting registered sex offenders? What are you even talking about?? You're just getting more and more ridiculous now.

NewHorizon wrote: "The PTA standards say no such thing. And I didn't say that they did."

That's exactly my point (that the standards say no such thing). I posted this:

Kris specifically told me that if parents
> choose
> > to involve their kids in the pledge asking
> > process, that that is totally ok! That its up
> to
> > the parents.

Then you replied this:

> So ask the NPTA to take down their standards which
> prohibit it.

I was being sarcastic when I replied: (because that's basically what you were implying)

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying
> > National PTA standards prohibit parents from
> > involving their children in a fundraiser if
> they
> > choose to?? I don't think Nat PTA has rules
> > prohibiting parents of being able to make
> > decisions for their children. Now you're on a
> > mission to save every child from their parents.
> > Wow

>
> But trying to stifle anybody's attempt to give
> greater awareness to the PTA standards is
> detrimental to what the National PTA is trying to
> accomplish.


What I find hilarious is that you seem to be attempting to give the National PTA greater awareness to the PTA standards that they wrote. They already told you their policies are standing as is....which if you can't read between the lines means that they know what their policies are and that these events don't breach those policies if the parents choose to involve their kids in the process.

You may have the support of a couple people on this website, but by and large all you're doing is annoying a great number of people by sending correspondance to PTA groups and emailing National PTA twisting the stardards that they wrote. We know the standards and what their meanings are, and I'm sorry but they just don't fit your agenda so you can find some other "point" to cling to.

Our PTA supports it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Parents are the drivers in these fundraisers. Kids
> only participate in asking for pledges if we as
> parents make that choice.

From a Booster-produced video: "Instead of selling something, students will help their school by getting pledges from friends and family."
https://vimeo.com/102154475

Booster, with the PTA's blessing, is directing everybody to have the kids make the ask.
Let's break this down because if we can put down our torches and pitchforks for a moment, I suspect we're actually in agreement...?

- What Booster is wanting kids to do violates PTA standards.
- PTA's support of this also violates PTA standards - albeit unwittingly.
- The parents are free to make their own choices.

Our PTA supports it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NewHorizon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > PTAMOM Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > .... it sounds like they are in support of
> it!
> > >
> > > NewHorizon, did they say the same thing to
> you?
> >
> > Interesting, that's exactly - word for
> word
> > - what I got (except, of course, you duly
> removed
> > Kris' full name, phone numbers, etc).
> > Not sure which "it" you meant when you said "in
> > support of it," though.
> >
> > And then, yeah, what's the point of creating
> > standards if nobody cares if they're followed?
> >
> > I've forwarded the National PTA's message to a
> few
> > dozen PTAs around the country. Not one
> responded.
>
> My PTA got one of your messages. Your name is John
> Koch right? You're twisting Nat PTA guidelines.
> Parents are the drivers in these fundraisers. Kids
> only participate in asking for pledges if we as
> parents make that choice. These fun run programs
> are a-ok and a lot of PTA's support them over
> unhealthy product sales. You're just trying to
> stir up controversy where none exists. We've
> alerted National PTA to your mass messaging of PTA
> groups just so they have a clear understanding of
> your intentions.

And further to that, we've copied them in on certain posts you've made on this message board, specifically on your posting of Kris's email online and using, out of context, things Kris said. You are completely misrepresenting Nat PTA and twisting their own words as if their policies fit your position. I know they won't appreciate that.

Our PTA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And further to that, we've copied them in on
> certain posts you've made on this message board,
> specifically on your posting of Kris's email
> online and using, out of context, things Kris
> said. You are completely misrepresenting Nat PTA
> and twisting their own words as if their policies
> fit your position. I know they won't appreciate
> that.

I've left a voice message with Kris.
I'll be as transparent about what happens next as best as I can.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our PTA supports it Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Parents are the drivers in these fundraisers.
> Kids
> > only participate in asking for pledges if we as
> > parents make that choice.
>
> From a Booster-produced video: "Instead of selling
> something, students will help their school by
> getting pledges from friends and family."
> https://vimeo.com/102154475
>
> Booster, with the PTA's blessing, is directing
> everybody to have the kids make the ask.
> Let's break this down because if we can put down
> our torches and pitchforks for a moment, I suspect
> we're actually in agreement...?
>
> - What Booster is wanting kids to do violates PTA
> standards.
> - PTA's support of this also violates PTA
> standards - albeit unwittingly.
> - The parents are free to make their own choices.

By a wide margin parents like to get their kids involved in the process. And many parents like to make cute videos for relatives to see. Booster is just making a suggestion based on what they've found many parents already do.

Again, parents decide what their kids can or can't do. No one forces kids to make videos or ask for pledges. Parents have to login to create the pledge page. It's all parent driven. You can keep beating the same arguement but the facts are the facts. Next?

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our PTA Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And further to that, we've copied them in on
> > certain posts you've made on this message
> board,
> > specifically on your posting of Kris's email
> > online and using, out of context, things Kris
> > said. You are completely misrepresenting Nat
> PTA
> > and twisting their own words as if their
> policies
> > fit your position. I know they won't appreciate
> > that.
>
> I've left a voice message with Kris.
> I'll be as transparent about what happens next as
> best as I can.

I'm going to assume that you're the "John Koch" that sent the correspondence to us. I'll put a call in to Nat PTA myself and get confirmation of that.

They've already confirmed to me that you ARE using their words out of context and twisting their policies.

Our PTA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> They've already confirmed to me that you ARE using
> their words out of context and twisting their
> policies.

Which of these are we in disagreement about?

- What Booster is wanting kids to do violates PTA standards.
- PTA's support of this also violates PTA standards - albeit unwittingly.
- The parents are free to make their own choices.

If I were going to look for agendas, I'd look not too much beyond principals, who give the Boosterthon people access to the schools and kids and then to the PTA/PTO who signed the Boosterthon contract guaranteeing such access, to say nothing of free trips to Atlanta.

Then we might have a word with Chris Carneal and Brett Trapp, who are apparently living quite well off the Boosterthon proceeds.

It'd be a while before I looked at an individual making inquiries.

Master of Agendas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Then we might have a word with Chris Carneal and
> Brett Trapp, who are apparently living quite well
> off the Boosterthon proceeds.
>

They own a very large company that serves over 1000 schools per year. Of course with a company that large you would expect the owners to make a very good income. I would think a very good income is typical of most owners of companies that size. Are you just jealous, or do you just think people shouldn't be rewarded for their success?

PTA doesn't mean squat when you are talking using publicly funded time to raise funds for a non-profit or a school system, particularly when school regulations prohibit this.

What happened to the day care lady? So New Horizon wasn't the day care lady? New Horizon was a GUY?

Let's bring back the Taliban, ISIS, etc. That was fun.

I've confirmed, NewHorizon IS "John Koch" and has been stirring up trouble sending correspondence to PTA groups and twisting Nat PTA guidelines away from their intended meaning, and posting email communications without authoriztion and also out of context. We are not the only PTA group that has contacted National about this. They have advised us not to respond to this person.

?

edit by Cary: Personal attack imagery removed. Personal attacks prohibited.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2015 03:36PM by Cary.

Success should be rewarded Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Master of Agendas Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Then we might have a word with Chris Carneal
> and
> > Brett Trapp, who are apparently living quite
> well
> > off the Boosterthon proceeds.
> >
>
> They own a very large company that serves over
> 1000 schools per year. Of course with a company
> that large you would expect the owners to make a
> very good income. I would think a very good income
> is typical of most owners of companies that size.
> Are you just jealous, or do you just think people
> shouldn't be rewarded for their success?

How successful would Boosterthon be if it had to conduct business off campus and after hours?

Business 101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Success should be rewarded Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Master of Agendas Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > Then we might have a word with Chris Carneal
> > and
> > > Brett Trapp, who are apparently living quite
> > well
> > > off the Boosterthon proceeds.
> > >
> >
> > They own a very large company that serves over
> > 1000 schools per year. Of course with a company
> > that large you would expect the owners to make
> a
> > very good income. I would think a very good
> income
> > is typical of most owners of companies that
> size.
> > Are you just jealous, or do you just think
> people
> > shouldn't be rewarded for their success?
>
> How successful would Boosterthon be if it had to
> conduct business off campus and after hours?

Kids would miss out on most of the experience if they did that. Hard to teach character education unless you're in an educational setting.

Missing the point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Business 101 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Success should be rewarded Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Master of Agendas Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Then we might have a word with Chris
> Carneal
> > > and
> > > > Brett Trapp, who are apparently living
> quite
> > > well
> > > > off the Boosterthon proceeds.
> > > >
> > >
> > > They own a very large company that serves
> over
> > > 1000 schools per year. Of course with a
> company
> > > that large you would expect the owners to
> make
> > a
> > > very good income. I would think a very good
> > income
> > > is typical of most owners of companies that
> > size.
> > > Are you just jealous, or do you just think
> > people
> > > shouldn't be rewarded for their success?
> >
> > How successful would Boosterthon be if it had
> to
> > conduct business off campus and after hours?
>
> Kids would miss out on most of the experience if
> they did that. Hard to teach character education
> unless you're in an educational setting.


What evidence is there of the quality of the Boosterthon "character education" curriculum, especially since FCPS contracts with other companies for the same thing. Then, we'd have to look at the quality of the instructors employed by Boosterthon. Take a look at their LinkedIn pages. You'll see unaccredited schools or no degree at all. That's a concern, they could not be licensed to teach in Virginia.

Missing the point Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kids would miss out on most of the experience if
> they did that. Hard to teach character education
> unless you're in an educational setting.

Which is why FCPS schools have qualified counselors who already handle character-education lessons.

“It’s not as if the school decided, ‘We really want a character education program, so let’s find a good one. Let’s have some meetings, involve the parents, etc.'” she observed. “These guys come in and say, ‘Oh, we’ll help you with fundraising and by, the way, we do character education. ‘ And whatever it is that they offer is what you take.” She calls them a “waste of time” for the kids and teachers and, “really it’s kind of teaching them to go out and beg for their education” and “to work for trinkets.”

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/04/03/3640081/boosterthon-apex-fundrunners-keep-half/

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry will jump on the character building bandwagon if it means getting their foot in the front door of a school and pushing a product. Sally Foster, cookie dough companies, etc.

Character building is what children are supposed to learn at home, at church, etc. So they know how to act at school. If they have to hear it from a teacher, a fundraiser, etc., this country is in trouble. But, this country IS in trouble.

It starts at home Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every Tom, Dick, and Harry will jump on the
> character building bandwagon if it means getting
> their foot in the front door of a school and
> pushing a product. Sally Foster, cookie dough
> companies, etc.
>
> Character building is what children are supposed
> to learn at home, at church, etc. So they know how
> to act at school. If they have to hear it from a
> teacher, a fundraiser, etc., this country is in
> trouble. But, this country IS in trouble.


FCPS is the group that thinks a dinner at Morton's and a night at Lansdowne are their right. Just how does that qualify them to teach character, ethics, etc.?

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I've left a voice message with Kris.
> I'll be as transparent about what happens next as
> best as I can.

Heh - well, I now regret making that promise, but I'll keep it.

Kris sent me a quick Email just to refer me to the VA PTA.
Knowing how unresponsive the state PTA has been (as others
have commented), I take Kris message to mean, "Pound sand".
But then, I've been accused of twisting her words. ;-)

Go ahead - you're entitled to feel a little smug.

Lesson learned - I'll quote only the published stuff.

---

"Children should not be the primary means of soliciting within fundraising activities."
"The anticipation of a successful fundraising event should not cloud the judgment of the PTA or be exploited by those outside the PTA who may have something to gain privately."
"And children should never be exploited or used as fundraisers."
National PTA - http://www.pta.org/mobile/OCArticle.cfm?ItemNumber=4192

" The regular school day schedule should not be disrupted, nor should the children be expected to give up their free time"
" A PTA or PTSA is not a moneymaking or money-raising organization."
" Material aid to the school is not the function of a PTA or PTSA."
VA PTA - http://www.vapta.org/new-unit-document-package/doc_download/2345-section-04-financial-management.html (PDF)
Boost the Children   

So NewHorizon, a photo of you gets posted on here and then it get's deleted as "personal attack imagery". No one even posted a comment with that photo, so the only person that would see it as a personal attack would be you,

John Koch
69 Gordon Blvd
Woodbridge, VA 22192

You've been exposed as a hypocrite with an agenda, twisting the words of the Nat PTA to fit your agenda as if they agree with you which they don't, and sending corresponence to other PTA's to the point of annoyance. You are nothing but a trouble maker. All over the internet you've been blasting things about a couple companies in a blatant attempt to damage them.

You showed integrity by admitting wrongdoing in your previous post. Do you care to show integrity by posting on all the sites that you've been posting on lately and admit that you were misquoting the National PTA and twisting their words to fit your agenda? You kept saying that this program was against their guidelines..it's not! And you sent correspndence to PTA's stating the same.

In addition, facts have been presented on this website that have refuted your libelous statements yet you continued to post them in an attempt to damage a company.

I hope you realize that by saying the things you did on those websites, and by sending the correspondence you sent to PTA's, that you were actually committing libel. You have committed a crime and knowingly so. Your intent was to damage a company and you used untrue statements to damage their reputation and damage the company.

If you don't immediately issue an apology on those websites and correct your statements, you will be served with a lawsuit for making libelous statements and damages will be sought.

Libelous Statements Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If you don't immediately issue an apology on those
> websites and correct your statements, you will be
> served with a lawsuit for making libelous
> statements and damages will be sought.

I'm willing to respond fully and truthfully to any authority and comply with any lawful papers.

Apology sent to Kris.

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Apology sent to Kris.


I'm an attorney NewHorizon and you have according to the law committed libel and they could seek damages which for a company that size could be substantial. At this point I would be extremely careful what you say online because it will no doubt be used against you.

Just some friendly advice

Be careful Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NewHorizon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Apology sent to Kris.
>
>
> I'm an attorney NewHorizon and you have according
> to the law committed libel and they could seek
> damages which for a company that size could be
> substantial. At this point I would be extremely
> careful what you say online because it will no
> doubt be used against you.
>
> Just some friendly advice


The postings trying to scare NewHorizon could be a joke. However, I do agree that the comments regarding Booster Enterprises seem to be rather ridiculous and have gone far beyond opinion. Some of them are attributed to NewHorizon, others to possible random posters. They are a company selling a product. That is all. They have a right to do that.

What has been going on does not seem to comply with FCPS regulations and policies. The discussion about that is fair game, as this is a public body subject to public scrutiny and opinion. We all have the right to expect the school system to follow published policies and procedures in their handling of our county's children and our publicly funded instructional hours.

Be careful Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NewHorizon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Apology sent to Kris.
>
>
> I'm an attorney NewHorizon and you have according
> to the law committed libel and they could seek
> damages which for a company that size could be
> substantial. At this point I would be extremely
> careful what you say online because it will no
> doubt be used against you.
>
> Just some friendly advice

If this person is a lawyer, they are a very poor one.

The company's size has nothing to do with the amount of damages. A big company might sue and get a very small award. An individual might sue and get a very large award.

If Boosterthon filed a lawsuit, they would be subject to discovery by the party they sued. That is probably not something they would want to risk, as all sorts of "interesting" things might turn up-such copies of contracts, files on Boosterthon employees, and the like.

If the alleged aggrieved party wishes to demand an apology, I'm sure their lawyer will proceed accordingly in a non-anonymous way.

Law School Rating? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Be careful Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NewHorizon Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Apology sent to Kris.
> >
> >
> > I'm an attorney NewHorizon and you have
> according
> > to the law committed libel and they could seek
> > damages which for a company that size could be
> > substantial. At this point I would be extremely
> > careful what you say online because it will no
> > doubt be used against you.
> >
> > Just some friendly advice
>
> If this person is a lawyer, they are a very poor
> one.
>
> The company's size has nothing to do with the
> amount of damages. A big company might sue and get
> a very small award. An individual might sue and
> get a very large award.
>

A company's size absolutely has something to do with the amount of damages. A larger company has more exposure to the marketplace and therefore is damaged to a greater degree than a smaller company. Bobs Doughnuts may lose $5000 because of libel, Walmart may lose $5,000,000

I was just giving friendly advice to be careful what NewHorizon posts online now because it will no doubt be used against him if they do pursue legal action

Be careful Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Law School Rating? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Be careful Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > NewHorizon Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Apology sent to Kris.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm an attorney NewHorizon and you have
> > according
> > > to the law committed libel and they could
> seek
> > > damages which for a company that size could
> be
> > > substantial. At this point I would be
> extremely
> > > careful what you say online because it will
> no
> > > doubt be used against you.
> > >
> > > Just some friendly advice
> >
> > If this person is a lawyer, they are a very
> poor
> > one.
> >
> > The company's size has nothing to do with the
> > amount of damages. A big company might sue and
> get
> > a very small award. An individual might sue and
> > get a very large award.
> >
>
> A company's size absolutely has something to do
> with the amount of damages. A larger company has
> more exposure to the marketplace and therefore is
> damaged to a greater degree than a smaller
> company. Bobs Doughnuts may lose $5000 because of
> libel, Walmart may lose $5,000,000
>
> I was just giving friendly advice to be careful
> what NewHorizon posts online now because it will
> no doubt be used against him if they do pursue
> legal action

The tricks are proving damages and stripping away first amendment protections.

Once you've done that, you still have to prove damages.

Then, of course, there's the public figure issue. Boosterthon's Brett Trapp is very vulnerable to derogatory comments he could do little about.

Then, of course, is the issue of discovery. If documents or testimony turned up about eating lunch with the kids, playing with the kids, telling the boys they would have to wear makeup if the girls got more pledges, contractual irregularities or violations of school regulations, one can only imagine the effect that would have on a jury.

Socratic Method Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Be careful Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Law School Rating? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Be careful Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > NewHorizon Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Apology sent to Kris.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm an attorney NewHorizon and you have
> > > according
> > > > to the law committed libel and they could
> > seek
> > > > damages which for a company that size could
> > be
> > > > substantial. At this point I would be
> > extremely
> > > > careful what you say online because it will
> > no
> > > > doubt be used against you.
> > > >
> > > > Just some friendly advice
> > >
> > > If this person is a lawyer, they are a very
> > poor
> > > one.
> > >
> > > The company's size has nothing to do with the
> > > amount of damages. A big company might sue
> and
> > get
> > > a very small award. An individual might sue
> and
> > > get a very large award.
> > >
> >
> > A company's size absolutely has something to do
> > with the amount of damages. A larger company
> has
> > more exposure to the marketplace and therefore
> is
> > damaged to a greater degree than a smaller
> > company. Bobs Doughnuts may lose $5000 because
> of
> > libel, Walmart may lose $5,000,000
> >
> > I was just giving friendly advice to be careful
> > what NewHorizon posts online now because it
> will
> > no doubt be used against him if they do pursue
> > legal action
>
> The tricks are proving damages and stripping away
> first amendment protections.
>
> Once you've done that, you still have to prove
> damages.
>
> Then, of course, there's the public figure issue.
> Boosterthon's Brett Trapp is very vulnerable to
> derogatory comments he could do little about.
>
> Then, of course, is the issue of discovery. If
> documents or testimony turned up about eating
> lunch with the kids, playing with the kids,
> telling the boys they would have to wear makeup if
> the girls got more pledges, contractual
> irregularities or violations of school
> regulations, one can only imagine the effect that
> would have on a jury.

Brett Trapp isn't a public figure. Also, why would a jury have a problem with positive role models eating lunch with kids, and playing games at recess? Most parents think that sort of thing is great and the kids and teachers do too.

Have you witnessed the makeup thing you mentioned or are you just repeating someone else's post?

Regardless of everything you've mentioned, the cost of defending yourself in a lawsuit is staggering. That's why everyone settles out of court.

This could go on forever, but... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Socratic Method Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Be careful Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Law School Rating? Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Be careful Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > NewHorizon Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > Apology sent to Kris.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm an attorney NewHorizon and you have
> > > > according
> > > > > to the law committed libel and they could
> > > seek
> > > > > damages which for a company that size
> could
> > > be
> > > > > substantial. At this point I would be
> > > extremely
> > > > > careful what you say online because it
> will
> > > no
> > > > > doubt be used against you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just some friendly advice
> > > >
> > > > If this person is a lawyer, they are a very
> > > poor
> > > > one.
> > > >
> > > > The company's size has nothing to do with
> the
> > > > amount of damages. A big company might sue
> > and
> > > get
> > > > a very small award. An individual might sue
> > and
> > > > get a very large award.
> > > >
> > >
> > > A company's size absolutely has something to
> do
> > > with the amount of damages. A larger company
> > has
> > > more exposure to the marketplace and
> therefore
> > is
> > > damaged to a greater degree than a smaller
> > > company. Bobs Doughnuts may lose $5000
> because
> > of
> > > libel, Walmart may lose $5,000,000
> > >
> > > I was just giving friendly advice to be
> careful
> > > what NewHorizon posts online now because it
> > will
> > > no doubt be used against him if they do
> pursue
> > > legal action
> >
> > The tricks are proving damages and stripping
> away
> > first amendment protections.
> >
> > Once you've done that, you still have to prove
> > damages.
> >
> > Then, of course, there's the public figure
> issue.
> > Boosterthon's Brett Trapp is very vulnerable to
> > derogatory comments he could do little about.
> >
> > Then, of course, is the issue of discovery. If
> > documents or testimony turned up about eating
> > lunch with the kids, playing with the kids,
> > telling the boys they would have to wear makeup
> if
> > the girls got more pledges, contractual
> > irregularities or violations of school
> > regulations, one can only imagine the effect
> that
> > would have on a jury.
>
> Brett Trapp isn't a public figure. Also, why would
> a jury have a problem with positive role models
> eating lunch with kids, and playing games at
> recess? Most parents think that sort of thing is
> great and the kids and teachers do too.
>
> Have you witnessed the makeup thing you mentioned
> or are you just repeating someone else's post?
>
> Regardless of everything you've mentioned, the
> cost of defending yourself in a lawsuit is
> staggering. That's why everyone settles out of
> court.

Brett Trapp has given interviews and is very public. That almost certainly makes him a public figure. Look it up.

I for one would not want uncredentialed "fundraisers" playing with or eating with my kids. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Defending doesn't have to be expensive-they have to prove their case. Boosterthon uses Troutman Sanders in Atlanta, not the best law firm in the country by a long shot.

The defendants would be wise to subpoena everything in sight that Boosterthon has. Boosterthon will end up paying Troutman $300+/hour to deal with that. Being a plaintiff can make you very vulnerable. Remember, it would not take much to make Boosterthon look VERY bad.

Socratic Method Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The tricks are proving damages and stripping away
> first amendment protections.

OK, so you mean they'd have to show they lost a PTA as a customer because of "libelous" comments as opposed to becoming aware of PTA standards?

GENERAL RULES OF LIBEL LAW

Trade libel involves products or services, and standard defamation rules apply. In all libel lawsuits, the plaintiff must prove that:

The material in question is a provably false statement of fact;
The defendant’s statement caused the plaintiff either financial or reputational harm;
The defendant didn’t sufficiently research if the claim in question was true before publication or broadcast.
SPECIFIC ASPECTS CONSIDERED IN TRADE LIBEL LAWSUITS

Below are points specific to trade libel suits involving a product or business service.

Plaintiffs in trade libel lawsuits must prove that the statements in question had a direct and negative effect on their businesses.
In most trade libel cases, monetary damage must be proved.
The plaintiff must prove that the product disparagement was intentional.
Plaintiffs in trade libel lawsuits can seek compensatory damages, punitive damages and injunctive relief.
DEFENSES AGAINST TRADE LIBEL

Below is a list of common trade libel defenses.

If you can prove that you didn’t publish or broadcast the comment, there’s a good chance you’ll get off.
If you can prove that the statement in question is not false, there’s a good chance you’ll get off.
If you can prove that the statement in question did not cause harm to a business, there’s a good chance you’ll get off.

Social Media and Defamation

With the rise of social media, it’s now easier than ever to make a defamatory statement. That’s because social media services like Twitter and Facebook allow you to instantly “publish” a statement that can reach thousands of people. Whether it’s a disparaging blog post, Facebook status update, or YouTube video, online defamation is treated the same way as more traditional forms. That means you can be sued for any defamatory statements you post online.

Companies such as fairfax underground can be issued a court order to turn over data on a specific user in the case of a defamation lawsuit. This includes IP address data on anonymous users. IP addresses can then be used to identify anonymous users.

Defamation (includes libel, slander) is not protected by the First Amendment.

Honest debate on an issue is good, just make sure it's factual and you can back your statements up with evidence if the need arises. Quoting someone else's libelous post and saying "these aren't my words but...", doesn't relieve you of any wrongdoing. Saying, "this is just my opinion but...", doesn't release you of any wrongdoing if what you say after the but is libelous.

Boosterthon would have to get the PTA to testify. Discovery could be conducted on the PTA. Travel to Atlanta-hm, what's that all about?

With respect to libel you can say things like "I think Lady Gaga is just awful, no sane person should buy her music"-even if someone, as a result, someone does not buy her music, Lady Gaga won't win.

Here is the site with the stuff about boys and makeup:

https://fundraisingaps.wordpress.com/psychologist-perspective-on-boosterthon/first-letter-to-principal/

Now, there is a statute of limitations for libel. Boosterthon may have missed the boat on this one. The truth is the best defense to libel. If it could be shown that Boosterthon had threatened boys with dresses and makeup, the case would be all over.

The PTA speaks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boosterthon would have to get the PTA to testify.
> Discovery could be conducted on the PTA. Travel to
> Atlanta-hm, what's that all about?
>
> With respect to libel you can say things like "I
> think Lady Gaga is just awful, no sane person
> should buy her music"-even if someone, as a
> result, someone does not buy her music, Lady Gaga
> won't win.
>
> Here is the site with the stuff about boys and
> makeup:
>
> https://fundraisingaps.wordpress.com/psychologist-
> perspective-on-boosterthon/first-letter-to-princip
> al/
>
> Now, there is a statute of limitations for libel.
> Boosterthon may have missed the boat on this one.
> The truth is the best defense to libel. If it
> could be shown that Boosterthon had threatened
> boys with dresses and makeup, the case would be
> all over.

This is very nicely put. I agree that the children are compelled by law to be in school and so are basically prisoners. It is cruel to subject them to peer pressure. Having fundraisers pose as teachers who want money is confusing and manipulative. This was well done.

The recent school board meetings put the schools in the spotlight, meaning that Boosterthon is also in the spotlight.

It would seem that the Boosterthon spin machine is gearing up (or maybe this is as geared as it gets?) for all the good it will do them.

If Boosterthon is so great, why don't all the schools run it to give the teachers the raises they keep crying for?

The law Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GENERAL RULES OF LIBEL LAW
>
> Trade libel involves products or services, and
> standard defamation rules apply. In all libel
> lawsuits, the plaintiff must prove that:
>
> The material in question is a provably false
> statement of fact;
> The defendant’s statement caused the plaintiff
> either financial or reputational harm;
> The defendant didn’t sufficiently research if
> the claim in question was true before publication
> or broadcast.
> SPECIFIC ASPECTS CONSIDERED IN TRADE LIBEL
> LAWSUITS
>
> Below are points specific to trade libel suits
> involving a product or business service.
>
> Plaintiffs in trade libel lawsuits must prove that
> the statements in question had a direct and
> negative effect on their businesses.
> In most trade libel cases, monetary damage must be
> proved.
> The plaintiff must prove that the product
> disparagement was intentional.
> Plaintiffs in trade libel lawsuits can seek
> compensatory damages, punitive damages and
> injunctive relief.
> DEFENSES AGAINST TRADE LIBEL
>
> Below is a list of common trade libel defenses.
>
> If you can prove that you didn’t publish or
> broadcast the comment, there’s a good chance
> you’ll get off.
> If you can prove that the statement in question is
> not false, there’s a good chance you’ll get
> off.
> If you can prove that the statement in question
> did not cause harm to a business, there’s a good
> chance you’ll get off.

Probably not libel then since it is a fairly generic statement:

[Boosterthon is] making a lot of money off of the ... abuse of children.

"Fundraising incentives in the grade schools is out of control...."
-Baby Gizmo Vlogger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix33Bb4xmcc

"Boosterthon is amazing"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rRfFKAwHDmc

NewHorizon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Fundraising incentives in the grade schools is
> out of control...."
> -Baby Gizmo Vlogger
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix33Bb4xmcc



I love this lady.

There's a special place in hell for those who abuse or exploit children. I guess we'll be seeing Chris Carneal and Brett Trapp down there.

Boostertoon is Evil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a special place in hell for those who
> abuse or exploit children. I guess we'll be seeing
> Chris Carneal and Brett Trapp down there.


What are you even talking about? I guess the principals, PTAs and teachers that sign up with and like Boosterthon abuse and exploit children too? By a very very wide margin people support Booster compared to people that don't. But I guess based on your argument they all abuse and exploit kids too.

Or, maybe you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Out of touch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boostertoon is Evil Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There's a special place in hell for those who
> > abuse or exploit children. I guess we'll be
> seeing
> > Chris Carneal and Brett Trapp down there.
>
>
> What are you even talking about? I guess the
> principals, PTAs and teachers that sign up with
> and like Boosterthon abuse and exploit children
> too? By a very very wide margin people support
> Booster compared to people that don't. But I guess
> based on your argument they all abuse and exploit
> kids too.
>
> Or, maybe you just don't have a clue what you're
> talking about.

Who are all of these supporters? Boosterthon employees? PTA officers getting free trips to Atlanta?

Where's the empirical data? Oh, there isn't any. Dr. Angela Atwater, Ed.D., said the matter was closed.

FCPS has fun runs, turf fields and football. What it doesn't have are schools teaching the kids how to get good grades and test scores. I guess, when they graduate, those glow in the dark Boosterthon armbands will go well with the McDonalds uniforms and Home Depot aprons.

facts, please! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out of touch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Boostertoon is Evil Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > There's a special place in hell for those who
> > > abuse or exploit children. I guess we'll be
> > seeing
> > > Chris Carneal and Brett Trapp down there.
> >
> >
> > What are you even talking about? I guess the
> > principals, PTAs and teachers that sign up with
> > and like Boosterthon abuse and exploit children
> > too? By a very very wide margin people support
> > Booster compared to people that don't. But I
> guess
> > based on your argument they all abuse and
> exploit
> > kids too.
> >
> > Or, maybe you just don't have a clue what
> you're
> > talking about.
>
> Who are all of these supporters? Boosterthon
> employees? PTA officers getting free trips to
> Atlanta?
>
> Where's the empirical data? Oh, there isn't any.
> Dr. Angela Atwater, Ed.D., said the matter was
> closed.
>
> FCPS has fun runs, turf fields and football. What
> it doesn't have are schools teaching the kids how
> to get good grades and test scores. I guess, when
> they graduate, those glow in the dark Boosterthon
> armbands will go well with the McDonalds uniforms
> and Home Depot aprons.

From the youtube video someone posted earlier, it looks like the supporters are the schools that use them. Dr. Atwater said the matter is closed because you're just a few people that have nothing better to do than complain about everything FCPS does. If it wasn't about Boosterthon it would be about something else I'm sure.

John Koch
Attachments:

Habitual complainers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> facts, please! Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Out of touch Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Boostertoon is Evil Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > There's a special place in hell for those
> who
> > > > abuse or exploit children. I guess we'll be
> > > seeing
> > > > Chris Carneal and Brett Trapp down there.
> > >
> > >
> > > What are you even talking about? I guess the
> > > principals, PTAs and teachers that sign up
> with
> > > and like Boosterthon abuse and exploit
> children
> > > too? By a very very wide margin people
> support
> > > Booster compared to people that don't. But I
> > guess
> > > based on your argument they all abuse and
> > exploit
> > > kids too.
> > >
> > > Or, maybe you just don't have a clue what
> > you're
> > > talking about.
> >
> > Who are all of these supporters? Boosterthon
> > employees? PTA officers getting free trips to
> > Atlanta?
> >
> > Where's the empirical data? Oh, there isn't
> any.
> > Dr. Angela Atwater, Ed.D., said the matter was
> > closed.
> >
> > FCPS has fun runs, turf fields and football.
> What
> > it doesn't have are schools teaching the kids
> how
> > to get good grades and test scores. I guess,
> when
> > they graduate, those glow in the dark
> Boosterthon
> > armbands will go well with the McDonalds
> uniforms
> > and Home Depot aprons.
>
> From the youtube video someone posted earlier, it
> looks like the supporters are the schools that use
> them. Dr. Atwater said the matter is closed
> because you're just a few people that have nothing
> better to do than complain about everything FCPS
> does. If it wasn't about Boosterthon it would be
> about something else I'm sure.

Given that we who complain are also those who pay for FCPS, we have the right to question where the money goes. If Dr. Atwater doesn't like it, let her go get a job in a privately funded entity. That is, if she could get a real job.

Boosterthon is not closed, not by a long shot. Tammy Kaufax will have plenty of spare time when she's voted out along with the other school board members. Plus, the Board of Supervisors will be in for big changes as well, including a big cut to the bloated school budget. Probably the end of Garza as well.

"Despitetheoriginal intentofcreatingaseparatebutequaldegre,theEd.D.cameto be regarded as an inferior doctorate. However, it was easier to obtain than, the Ph.D."

Why didn't Angela Atwater get a REAL degree? What did she learn in Ed.D. school, how to close things? What a waste she is. "Did you want fries with that?" she can handle, not so sure at all about running a school system.

Someone else went to Atlanta besides the one PTA pres at White Oaks back then? Anyone else? New principal and different PTA pres. Shut them out of VA and let it go. It's disruptive and wrong.

Atwater's Inferior Degree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Despitetheoriginal
> intentofcreatingaseparatebutequaldegre,theEd.D.cam
> eto be regarded as an inferior doctorate. However,
> it was easier to obtain than, the Ph.D."
>
> Why didn't Angela Atwater get a REAL degree? What
> did she learn in Ed.D. school, how to close
> things? What a waste she is. "Did you want fries
> with that?" she can handle, not so sure at all
> about running a school system.

They learn how to ignore parents, feed them a line of BS, run and hide in their locked palaces when the chips are down, there is a whole course on selecting expensive conferences to go to, etc.

http://www.capella.edu/online-phd-programs/

You can get an online Ed.D.
You can buy a fake doctorate, although a background check will figure that out.

I'll have you know that the "Conference Selection for the Academic Professional" was a life changing experience for me. That, and Dr. von Krapp's lecture on "closing complicated matters" have been essential to my success at FCPS.

The Ed.D. degree-the key to Gatehouse!

The Mighty Angela Atwater, Ed.D. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll have you know that the "Conference Selection
> for the Academic Professional" was a life changing
> experience for me. That, and Dr. von Krapp's
> lecture on "closing complicated matters" have been
> essential to my success at FCPS.
>
> The Ed.D. degree-the key to Gatehouse!


I almost fell for this. Dr. von Krapp. Priceless.

http://www.cafepress.com/+von_krapp_stein,42675988

"How to convince a parent you really care when you don't give a shit."

It requires two short papers and a case study analysis.

From our neighbors to the west:

"If the priority of classroom instruction time is the official policy of the Prince William County School Board, then it truly should be an official policy that is implemented from top to bottom."

http://sheriffofnottinghampwc.blogspot.com/2014/03/it-is-all-about-priorities-or-what.html

This is a Boosterthon video (Hero Steps is their Character Education portion). This is a great video to show why Boosterthon isn't an interruption to the classroom, and what they're able to accomplish with character education that schools aren't. Teachers and councelors teaching character education just doesn't engage the kids.

https://vimeo.com/120714094

The character program is paid for through the Fun Run fundraiser.

News story in support of Boosterthon https://vimeo.com/106333904

Why Boosterthon is great Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a Boosterthon video (Hero Steps is their
> Character Education portion). This is a great
> video to show why Boosterthon isn't an
> interruption to the classroom, and what they're
> able to accomplish with character education that
> schools aren't. Teachers and councelors teaching
> character education just doesn't engage the kids.
>
> https://vimeo.com/120714094
>
> The character program is paid for through the Fun
> Run fundraiser.

Great, they make a video mocking a teacher. This video is Boosterthon propaganda. Hello, Brett Trapp and Chris Carneal! We are not fooled.

Boosterthon is great! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> News story in support of Boosterthon
> https://vimeo.com/106333904

The news story emphasized the FUNDRAISING aspect of Boosterthon. And who was speaking for most of it? A Boosterthon employee.

You fail, Boosterthon.

Why Boosterthon is great Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teachers and councelors teaching
> character education just doesn't engage the kids.

"It’s not as if the school decided, ‘We really want a character education program, so let’s find a good one. Let’s have some meetings, involve the parents, etc.'” she observed. “These guys come in and say, ‘Oh, we’ll help you with fundraising and by, the way, we do character education. ‘ And whatever it is that they offer is what you take.” She calls them a “waste of time” for the kids and teachers and, “really it’s kind of teaching them to go out and beg for their education” and “to work for trinkets.”

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/04/03/3640081/boosterthon-apex-fundrunners-keep-half/

You'll always find people that don't like something, no matter what it is.

For every 1 person that doesn't like Boosterthon there are 100 or more that love it.

You're only but a few. Boosterthon is growing rapidly and will continue to do so and that's because the majority of teachers, principals, pta's and parents really like the program

Boosterthon is great! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You'll always find people that don't like
> something, no matter what it is.
>
> For every 1 person that doesn't like Boosterthon
> there are 100 or more that love it.
>
> You're only but a few. Boosterthon is growing
> rapidly and will continue to do so and that's
> because the majority of teachers, principals,
> pta's and parents really like the program

We're all sure you have figures to support these numerical claims.

While you're putting those figures together, tell us about how you are addressing competition from your clone, Apex.

oh great oracle, Brett Trapp… Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boosterthon is great! Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You'll always find people that don't like
> > something, no matter what it is.
> >
> > For every 1 person that doesn't like
> Boosterthon
> > there are 100 or more that love it.
> >
> > You're only but a few. Boosterthon is growing
> > rapidly and will continue to do so and that's
> > because the majority of teachers, principals,
> > pta's and parents really like the program
>
> We're all sure you have figures to support these
> numerical claims.
>
> While you're putting those figures together, tell
> us about how you are addressing competition from
> your clone, Apex.

Rebook rate, and new school sign up rate. Period

I've been reading through the posts on this topic. Thanks I needed a good laugh. You all are in a verbal war with a school fundraising company. Must have way too much time on your hands!

Here's some good reading. How to deal with habitual complainers, like the people on this forum.


Understanding the Chronic Complainer Mindset

Despite how difficult their complaints are for those around them, chronic complainers do not usually see themselves as negative people. Rather they perceive themselves as forever being on the losing end of things, as drawing the short straw on a daily basis. Therefore they see the world as being negative and themselves as merely responding appropriately to annoying, aggravating or unfortunate circumstances.

Even those chronic complainers who do recognize their prodigious complaining output truly believe their unlucky lot in life more than justifies expressing their dissatisfaction to those around them. After all, it is they who have been saddled with more problems and misfortune than most.


On the off chance you don’t know what complainers look like, consider this: Complainers complain about everything — the bus is always late, the customers are always idiots, the vendors are out to get us, the doctors don’t know what they’re talking about, the incense wafting from the store next door stinks, the cafe down the block has no taste in coffee, there’s no good food in the neighborhood…you name it, the complainer can complain about it. (Actually, what amazes me about complainers is that they can complain about stuff I never even think of naming, noticing, or reacting to.)


Survival Tip: Do not try to convince a chronic complainer things are "not as bad" as they think they are or suggest they are "over-reacting" to events and situations. This will only compel him or her to mention 10 additional complaints or dissatisfactions you have not yet heard about, that might give you a better understanding of how terrible their situation actuall is.

It can be very, very tempting to just ignore complainers, because at a certain point their constant kvetching gets irritating and it’s human nature to withdraw from an irritant. But believe me, you ignore complainers at your own peril. That’s because complainers really are suffering. They’re not suffering from the superficial stuff about which they’re whining. They’re deeply deeply wretched human beings who, when ignored, will feel driven to clamor even more for attention, because they’re feeling misunderstood. So just nod your head and acknowledge the complainer’s complaint, then move on, productively, to the rest of your day.

Boosterthon is great! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For every 1 person that doesn't like Boosterthon
> there are 100 or more that love it.

Change the PTA standards, then.
Oughtta be a slam-dunk.
Let us know how it goes...?

"And children should never be exploited or used as fundraisers."

"The anticipation of a successful fundraising event should not cloud the judgment of the PTA or be exploited by those outside the PTA who may have something to gain privately."

"Children should not be the primary means of soliciting within fundraising activities."
http://www.pta.org/mobile/OCArticle.cfm?ItemNumber=4192

Comments about chronic complainers are ad hominem comments.

We'll see complaining when some parent feels their son has been unduly traumatized by threats of having to wear a dress and makeup.

It is interesting that these pro-Boosterthon people never address specifics, they just talk about how great Boosterthon is and how it is expanding. Maybe it is not a coincidence that Scientology does the same thing. Scientology is certainly a cult and Boosterthon seems to incline in that direction.