Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More,
> Your source is wrong, the democrats endorsed Stu
> Gibson each time he ran. I can't imagine why a
> democrat would claim otherwise. Oh wait, I take
> that back. I can understand why a democrat would
> not want to claim Stu Gibson but I an assure you
> that he was endorsed by democrats in his last
> three elections. It has been something of a
> problem for him since he is covered under the
> Hatch act.

Do you really claim to know more about the actions of the Hunter Mill Democratic Committee than the 2003 chairman of the Hunter Mill Democratic Committee?

Seriously?

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen:
>
> Please get some rest. You are
> acting...........batty.
>


Hmmm, kind of like Christine. You like similar words too - especially that political term - "educrat." She used that in one of her letters to the editor. I find that offensive - stick to the specifics.

You've totally lost me now that you are "blaming" all problems on one party or another. I want to hear what you'll do different, not what some supposed "democrat" did...

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLverity,
> I suggest you give Christine a second look.
> Listen to her now, or call her on the phone. I
> think you'll be impressed. I totally agree that
> in the beginning she spoke too much about her own
> problems with her son in FCPS. Now she's much
> more focused on the community and what the schools
> need, particularly the low performing schools.
> She's seen the stats, she knows what has happened
> and what needs to be fixed. She's more than
> willing to listen to the community, something that
> voters haven't had in Hunter Mill for 12 years.
>
> Stu could have changed things in Reston schools.
> He had 12 years to get real reading programs, real
> math programs, programs that have worked in 11
> other districts in Virginia, and other parts of
> FCPS. He did nothing, because of ideology. His
> ideology came first, over the needs of students in
> his district. The results speak for themselves
> when we see other low income schools over coming
> their problems while Dogwood and McNair remain on
> the bottom.

Amen Hallejuia

Latest IB/Butler outrage:

Parents of sophomore both with advanced degree send e-mails to Butler asking for help with IB-English teacher assigning the entirety of The Crucible on Friday to be read for test on Tuesday of entire contents. No class discussion. No study guide for points to focus on, nothing. This is typical of this teacher's work load during the first quarter.

Butler response: I can't help you.

This kid is dropping out of pre-English and back to normal college prep english.

The IB workload is disproportionate to the pay-off.

Once again, Butler sides with his instructional staff against kids, parents and the community.

More Later



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 04:37PM by Thomas More.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket Wrote:
> > a ride down Coppermine to McNair Farms Dr. to
> > Thomas Jefferson Drive conceptually reveals the
> > same as Alabama Ave. I just don't believe that
> > the Alabama Ave. is the sole contributor to
> > McNair's non-English demographic. It can't be.

I did just that today, and I saw

Woodland Park a gated townhouse community with mercedes and BMW's in the driveways. Archstone at Woodland, Villages at Woodland. Expensive brick faced townhouse projects and new garden apts of similar quality everywhere. Talked to the manager of the Sunoco station. No crime. No loitering.

This area south of the Toll Road would be a substantial upgrade for HHS and enable Aldrin join the other Reston kids at Reston's high school: South Lakes.

Make no mistake it would raise the demographics of South Lakes also but it wouldn't unify the Reston community behind one high school but rather perpetuate Lou Zone's partitioning of Reston during the last redistricting 16 years ago. Unifying Reston in one high school district is my highest priority.

Getting rid of IB is second.

Apparently those two goals cannot be achieved with Stu, Webb and Bruce in place, so they all have to go.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 06:21PM by Thomas More.

Thomas,
McNair has 39% free lunch and 39% limited english. The area north of the toll road isn't 39% of McNair's district. I agree with Cricket--south of the toll road must have some of the 39%. There is what is identified as affordable housing there. The biggest projects are Jefferson Commons and Dulles Center.

The school board should know where the free lunch population lives.

Old Timer Wrote:

> Effectively he said he
> would love to add AP classes with the caveat that
> he will not duplicate what he has in IB. The
> classes would have to supplement the IB
> curriculum. He said he would need enough
> "numbers" to justify it.

He gave the latest PTA mtg the same line of equine excrement but they were too polite to call him on it.

Just what subjects don't already have an IB class? What did he have in mind AP-Culinary Arts?

It's an illusion to get support for redistricting.

More Later

weliketorapallthetime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't care what color the kids are at any school
> mine would attend. (Actually, any school without
> some diversity makes me uneasy). In my opinion,
> the academic achievement and the well-being of any
> student body lands squarely in one group's lap:
> the parents! Show me a community of parents who
> take an obsessive interest in their children's
> academics, value-system and social well-being, and
> you'll find schools with great test scores, low
> drop-out rates, and safe students. These are the
> families that think and act like me, and with whom
> I want my kids to be educated. These are black,
> white, Asian, Indian, and Korean families. If
> communities are to be redistricted, please send
> the kids of willing families to my school who want
> a better future for their kids. I keep reading
> that some think just the opposite will be a better
> approach...send motivated families kids to
> underachieving schools. How will this help the
> parents of the underachieving kids change their
> ways? This must be some kind of mistake. What
> idiots would take an approach like that?


This post is extremley offensive. you have know idea what the parental involvement at south lakes is like. As a matter of fact the parents at south lakes are extremely active. Take the boys lacrosse team as an example.

Also, to other posters refering to "good families"...who are you to decide what is a "good family". There are more reasons why kids of lower income drop out of school than that their parents don't care if they go or not. There might be a correlation between the two but you are you to judge a family that you don't even know.

I know none of you consider yourselves racist or predjudice but honestly...it comes out in your posts no matter how subconscious it may be.

Regardless of the merits of IB, many will use it an exit strategy to pupil place into AP schools as per county policy. South Lakes is surrounded by AP schools. My take is they better ditch it or run parallel programs until it's phased out.

Thomas More,
Yes, in this case I do know more. Stu Gibson was endorsed by the democrats in 2003. I posted you a link where the Washington Post said exactly that. Please post a link that refutes the Post. Please google it, you will see that I am correct.

Please ask other democrats, who were around in 2003, if Stu was on the their ticket. I promise. Seriously, I know that I am correct. Ask around. Do you really think that the democrats endorse Stu 3 out the 4 times that he ran? But omit him ONE time? When did they EVER not endorse an incumbent. They wouldn't, and they didn't. Ask around. Or use our friend Mr. Google. Let me know what you find.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> McNair has 39% free lunch and 39% limited english.
> The area north of the toll road isn't 39% of
> McNair's district. I agree with Cricket--south of
> the toll road must have some of the 39%. There is
> what is identified as affordable housing there.
> The biggest projects are Jefferson Commons and
> Dulles Center.
>
> The school board should know where the free lunch
> population lives.

Repeating, Dulles Center requires a minimum income of $57,000 to qualify to rent.

Please, drive by the Jefferson Commons, then drive by Stonegate and Sycamores or the townhouses across from the Dubransky baseball field or the duplex houses south of Herndon Parkway and claim they are similar neighborhoods. No rational person would agree with that analysis.

McNair has 520 kids. 39% of that number is 202. Do I believe that most, if not all, of those 202 free lunches live north of the Toll Road. Without question and those kids are already going to HHS.

Please don't confuse 39% of the kids with 39% of the land area.

Does the School Board even aggregate the street addresses of those 202 free lunch kids to be able to tell us whether they live north or south of the Toll Road? If they do, they haven't posted it for the rest of us to see.

The Westfield portion of the McNair attendance area is an upgrade for either Herndon or South Lakes and either would be lucky to have them.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 06:56PM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More,
> Yes, in this case I do know more. Stu Gibson was
> endorsed by the democrats in 2003. I posted you a
> link where the Washington Post said exactly that.
> Please post a link that refutes the Post. Please
> google it, you will see that I am correct.

Stu told the Post that.

> Please ask other democrats, who were around in
> 2003, if Stu was on the their ticket. I promise.
> Seriously, I know that I am correct. Ask around.
> Do you really think that the democrats endorse Stu
> 3 out the 4 times that he ran? But omit him ONE
> time? When did they EVER not endorse an incumbent.
> They wouldn't, and they didn't. Ask around. Or
> use our friend Mr. Google. Let me know what you
> find.

They witheld the endorsement in 2003 because he hadn't gotten rid of Realista.

More Later

Thomas More Wrote:
>
> I did just that today, and I saw
>
> Woodland Park a gated townhouse community with
> mercedes and BMW's in the driveways. Archstone at
> Woodland, Villages at Woodland. Expensive brick
> faced townhouse projects and new garden apts of
> similar quality everywhere. Talked to the manager
> of the Sunoco station. No crime. No loitering.
>

Sure Woodland Park is nice. It was a nice day for a stroll. Did you stop at Pei Wei for lunch?

Anyway, regardless of where the 39% Non-English speakers live (I don't think the Alabama Ave. attendance area is large enough for this figure--many of these are SFH--realize that some not all may have multiple families). There are plenty of kids who live with the single, wealthy individuals in those fancy new McNair area apartments and condos. At least 8+ busloads of students head to Westfield from the McNair community everyday.

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sure Woodland Park is nice. It was a nice day for
> a stroll. Did you stop at Pei Wei for lunch?

No too early for lunch. I wanted to make sure my memory of the area was accurate. I was wrong it's far more up scale than I remembered.

> Anyway, regardless of where the 39% Non-English
> speakers live (I don't think the Alabama Ave.
> attendance area is large enough for this
> figure--many of these are SFH--realize that some
> not all may have multiple families). There are
> plenty of kids who live with the single, wealthy
> individuals in those fancy new McNair area
> apartments and condos. At least 8+ busloads of
> students head to Westfield from the McNair
> community everyday.

And those eight bus loads going to HHS would certainly make up for the upscale apartments, condos and townhouses in Aldrin.

Would you be surprised if many of those buses were partially empty because the juniors and seniors were driving to Westfield in a nice car Mom or Dad bought them.

They should also be welcome additions to SL but I want Aldrin for the reasons already stated ad naseum.

More Later

Word - again you are on point. Why posit as to the merits of the IB program when it may be irrelevant. If there is not an AP program, people will - I can flat out guarantee it - pupil place to an AP school. So any redistricting would be for naught. I cannot believe that the school system would not anticipate this - so I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. The worst thing would be to have a feeble AP program merely designed to frustrate pupil placement. Need I say that some in the system would consider doing just that?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The worst thing would
> be to have a feeble AP program merely designed to
> frustrate pupil placement. Need I say that some
> in the system would consider doing just that?

That's exactly what will happen.

With Butler's sophistry about only adding AP classes that are not redundant of the IB program, there will be extremely few AP classes at South Lakes.

A child can pupil place to an AP high school only if there is room at the AP high school. Do folks really think there will be 500-700 places at AP high schools to pupil place all the transferees?

More Later

News flash**** just because Butler says he will add, does not mean it will get done. It takes more juice than just BB to decide what curriculum will be added to a high school. AP can not be added for at least 2009 due to teacher requirements, program establishments and guidlines oh yea and $$$$$$$$$ to pay the under paid teachers that don't want to currently work at SLHS

Did everyone in the kathy smith area get her flyer full of lies today? A little to late kathy to try and muster a vote up now you are done. you have said you are for redistricting and your opponent is not. Join another favorite (NOT) democrat for breakfast and order more waffles. Oh and wear your FLIP FLOPS

Can someone provide a link to documents regarding the last redistricting? I would like to understand why the Oakton boundaries protrude so far towards Herndon (resulting, for example, in students on Mansway Drive traveling 12 miles to school at Oakton when South Lakes is only 4 miles away), and why there is a Monroe island.

Thanks!

Apparently, Stu sent out hate flyers today about Arakelian. Guess he and Kathy cooked this idea up together...

Thomas More - I concur that pupil placement will take place only if there is "room" at the "other" school. But the statistics reflect only minimal overcrowding at most schools, soon to be none at all everywhere. It strikes me that even with a modest amount acceding to the forced march at South Lakes, there would still be room at the inn, so to speak, at the AP schools. But I also suspect sophistry - because the system may redefine what numbers make for a "full" school - and tempt those to litigate against an arbitrary action. The peril the system runs in doing this is a loss of credibility, making the whole redistricting exercise be even more a manifest exercise in test score management than it appears to be.

Neen - by the way - I disagree with the NCLB - not because I think it is a bad idea - it makes sense in concept - too many children are indeed locked into dead end schools - but rather my confidence in the federal government to make any significant impact on education is limited. NCLB if any anything has energized a teachers union laden bureaucracy to find creative ways to dodge reporting and accountability with respect to the law. Look at the fuss Fairfax put up when forced to include certain populations into their scoring profile that they did not want for fear of not looking "good". Likely a staff of 15 studied that issue. Local schools, with parents and teachers dedicated to excellence and educational fundamentals provide for a simple, unassailable formula - we ought to abide by this principle as an overriding guidepost. So any disagreement we have likely is not in theory, but in the cynical weight I impute to federal educational involvement - perhaps too much so.

Not all will seek pupil placement, just the best... maybe the top half. Spread that out over Oakton, Madison, Herndon, Westfield, Chantilly and the load is not that great.

Why not just start an AP program and show some good faith. These new students will be sent by fiat, not by choice. Throw them a bone.

Concerned Rachel Carson Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can someone provide a link to documents regarding
> the last redistricting? I would like to
> understand why the Oakton boundaries protrude so
> far towards Herndon (resulting, for example, in
> students on Mansway Drive traveling 12 miles to
> school at Oakton when South Lakes is only 4 miles
> away), and why there is a Monroe island.
>
> Thanks!


4 miles 12 miles who cares, thats what the bus driver get paid for. They make need to work also.

Word - you are absolutely correct. I have been asserting the same continuously. It baffles me why this would not be considered. Maybe some at South Lakes have a far more profound understanding of teacher limitations at South Lakes than they are willing to let on.

agree quantum - South Lakes should pick their battles and this is not one of them

McNair just got a renovation. They have a large band room now.

word up Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Concerned Rachel Carson Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can someone provide a link to documents
> regarding
> > the last redistricting? I would like to
> > understand why the Oakton boundaries protrude
> so
> > far towards Herndon (resulting, for example, in
> > students on Mansway Drive traveling 12 miles to
> > school at Oakton when South Lakes is only 4
> miles
> > away), and why there is a Monroe island.
> >
> > Thanks!
>
>
> 4 miles 12 miles who cares, thats what the bus
> driver get paid for. They make need to work also.


That has to be the worst argument I ever heard! Let's make kids go to schools far away in order to employ bus drivers. Wow.

What it really does is make our children have to get up incredibly early to catch a bus to get them to school on time. It also mean that on days without late bus I have to drive 40 minutes to pick up my kid.

To the Concerned and Another and Whatever Parents...

see the previous posts, we've been over why Oakton pulls from the west ad nauseum.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the Concerned and Another and Whatever
> Parents...
>
> see the previous posts, we've been over why Oakton
> pulls from the west ad nauseum.


I think the presence of folks who are complaining about long bus drives proves my point that there are people out there for whom this is a significant concern, and would consider going to South Lakes.

Perhaps there are a few concerned about that. (I really question the integrity of these anonymous complainers).

I can tell you for certain that the previous results posted concerning the Franklin Farm community (1%-3%) would choose South Lakes are accurate. Personally, I know of no one that wants to switch high schools.

As stated previously, Franklin Farm doesn't travel long distances to their current school, and they are further from South Lakes, so their responses are to be expected. Fox Mill and Crossfield are a different story. Personally, I know several people who have told me directly they would prefer South Lakes.

Why do you think this is not a legitimate concern? It would be a concern to me, I know, if I lived so far from the school. Kids have to get up early enough without having a 40 minute bus ride.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 09:15PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe some at
> South Lakes have a far more profound understanding
> of teacher limitations at South Lakes than they
> are willing to let on.

Only the Butler pets and Gibson partisans on the PTA board would deny the disfunctional state of the instructional staff that Realista left us.

A former math teacher who has since left SL told me, when IB came in, that the parallel IB course covered less material than the AP course he had taught for several years at SL. He also didn't like that it demanded more home work/make work from the students.

Maybe your hypothesis is right. Maybe IB was brought by Webb in to cover for a cheaper, less experience, less qualified staff.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 09:41PM by Thomas More.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------------------------------------
>> No too early for lunch. I wanted to make sure my
> memory of the area was accurate. I was wrong it's
> far more up scale than I remembered.
> >
> Thomas More Wrote:
And those eight bus loads going to HHS would
> certainly make up for the upscale apartments,
> condos and townhouses in Aldrin.
>
> Would you be surprised if many of those buses were
> partially empty because the juniors and seniors
> were driving to Westfield in a nice car Mom or Dad
> bought them.
>
> They should also be welcome additions to SL but I
> want Aldrin for the reasons already stated ad
> naseum.

and, Thomas More Wrote:

The vast majority of those multi-family unit are expensive and aimed at
> singles and couples without kids. Not a very
> large percentage of those units will ever have
> children. Average number of kids per multi-family
> housing unit just don't support this presumption.
>
Thomas More Wrote:

> 1) Multis don't generate lots of highs school aged
> kids, Less that one for every two units.

So you are saying that all these upscale singles and couples without kids are sending their Juniors and Seniors to Westfield in the nice cars that were bought for them, by I guess, the singles or couples? (or maybe the Moms and/or Dads that you claim don't live there?) Thus sending 8 half-full buses all the way to Westfield at taxpayer expense, but we know all schools have this problem. I suppose your morning walk wasn't at high school bus pick-up time but now I am wondering...are these same singles and couples without kids packing their children's lunches? What a sweeeet deal. Or maybe these Juniors and Seniors are the upscale singles and couples without kids. That would be even sweeeeeeter living in such nice upscale communities all by themselves. These kids would do well wherever.

deleted an OBE question here. sorry



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 09:45PM by Cricket.

SLPP

It's a legitimate concern, but it's not a popular one.

Crossfield is Franklin Farm and adjoining neighborhoods along west ox. That is where most Crossfield students live. (also there are some along lawyers/folkstone but not many)

Concerning the Franklin Farm poll (Oakton Section 3% preferred South Lakes), the Oakton families polled attend Crossfield.

I have not see a Fox Mill poll to date.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not all will seek pupil placement, just the
> best... maybe the top half. Spread that out over
> Oakton, Madison, Herndon, Westfield, Chantilly and
> the load is not that great.
>
> Why not just start an AP program and show some
> good faith. These new students will be sent by
> fiat, not by choice. Throw them a bone.

And since most of these schools are not really overcrowded or they have declining enrollments, they can absorb quite a few pupil placements.

I am bit confused about one thing. Even the fairly strident South Lakes supporters believe that the prior principal really had problems, and by any measure harming the school. I have intuited this conclusion across the "political" spectrum reflected by the posters here, an indication that it is far from anecdotal and approaching the universal. Why, then, was the situation allowed to continue for so long - in other words, why was nothing done after a year or two? I ask this because it does not support the assertion of South Lakes supporters that parents are involved with the school. Truly involved parents would have demanded - no, metaphorically knocked the doors down - to bring about change. Now, I don't have the facts, so they may have indeed done just that - with the bureaucracy being more intransigent than is typical. But again, how could this state of affairs gone on so long? An undesirable principal would not last long at Oakton, and would last for 5 minutes at TJ. Can anyone explain? Because it appears to an observer that the prior principal was not relieved out of any particular hue and cry, but rather as a form of necessity to prepare for an influx of more demanding students (and their parents) that the system knew would not stand for the level of incompetence. And I am seeking reasonable explanations, not mere defensiveness - the issue baffles me.

Cricket Wrote:
------------
> So you are saying that all these upscale singles
> and couples without kids are sending their Juniors
> and Seniors to Westfield in the nice cars that
> were bought for them, by I guess, the singles or
> couples? (or maybe the Moms and/or Dads that you
> claim don't live there?) Thus sending 8 half-full
> buses all the way to Westfield at taxpayer
> expense, but we know all schools have this
> problem.

Many schools do have this problem. Ask parents at a few highs school how easy it is to get a parking pass for their kids. A few schools have a lottery.

Not at SL where the student parking lot isn't full most days (even after it's been relocated to the smaller space to make way for the construction storage trailers and material/equipment storage areas) .

> I suppose your morning walk wasn't at
> high school bus pick-up time but now I am
> wondering...are these same singles and couples
> without kids packing their children's lunches?
> What a sweeeet deal. Or maybe these Juniors and
> Seniors are the upscale singles and couples
> without kids. That would be even sweeeeeeter
> living in such nice upscale communities all by
> themselves. These kids would do well wherever.

Given the number of dwelling units in that area, if they had the same ratio of kids as SFDs, you'd need alot more than 8 buses, How many high school kids fit in regular size school bus?

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 11:02PM by Thomas More.

Concerned Rachel Carson Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can someone provide a link to documents regarding
> the last redistricting? I would like to
> understand why the Oakton boundaries protrude so
> far towards Herndon (resulting, for example, in
> students on Mansway Drive traveling 12 miles to
> school at Oakton when South Lakes is only 4 miles
> away), and why there is a Monroe island.
>
> Thanks!


The boundaries use to extend even further out to 28. Most of the west part of the county was not developed when the boundaries were determined. I think other people here have already answered this question, though. But again, take a look at the proximity of Madison, Oakton, Fairfax and Woodson. And the monroe island is where

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket Wrote:
> ------------
> > So you are saying that all these upscale
> singles
> > and couples without kids are sending their
> Juniors
> > and Seniors to Westfield in the nice cars that
> > were bought for them, by I guess, the singles
> or
> > couples? (or maybe the Moms and/or Dads that
> you
> > claim don't live there?) Thus sending 8
> half-full
> > buses all the way to Westfield at taxpayer
> > expense, but we know all schools have this
> > problem.
>
> Many schools do have this problem. Ask parents at
> a few highs school how easy it is to get a parking
> pass for their kids. A few schools have a
> lottery.
>
> Not at SL where the student parking lot isn't full
> most days (even after it's been relocated to the
> smaller space to make way for the construction
> storage trailers and material/equipment storage
> areas) .
>
> > I suppose your morning walk wasn't at
> > high school bus pick-up time but now I am
> > wondering...are these same singles and couples
> > without kids packing their children's lunches?
> > What a sweeeet deal. Or maybe these Juniors and
> > Seniors are the upscale singles and couples
> > without kids. That would be even sweeeeeeter
> > living in such nice upscale communities all by
> > themselves. These kids would do well wherever.
>
> Given the number of dwelling units in that area,
> if they had the same ratio of kids as SFDs, you'd
> need alot more than 8 buses, How many high school
> kids fit in regular size school?



Don't know what's a regular size school? But it doesn't matter. If we were to listen to you, there should be no kids in these dwellings because they don't fall into the developers' demographics. You are convinced you are right and that is ok by me. And if you are not, well, there should be plenty of room at SLHS for all the fine fancy cars that depart the McNair neighborhood every morning at 6:30 am.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am bit confused about one thing. Even the
> fairly strident South Lakes supporters believe
> that the prior principal really had problems, and
> by any measure harming the school. I have
> intuited this conclusion across the "political"
> spectrum reflected by the posters here, an
> indication that it is far from anecdotal and
> approaching the universal. Why, then, was the
> situation allowed to continue for so long - in
> other words, why was nothing done after a year or
> two? I ask this because it does not support the
> assertion of South Lakes supporters that parents
> are involved with the school. Truly involved
> parents would have demanded - no, metaphorically
> knocked the doors down - to bring about change.
> Now, I don't have the facts, so they may have
> indeed done just that - with the bureaucracy being
> more intransigent than is typical. But again, how
> could this state of affairs gone on so long? An
> undesirable principal would not last long at
> Oakton, and would last for 5 minutes at TJ. Can
> anyone explain? Because it appears to an observer
> that the prior principal was not relieved out of
> any particular hue and cry, but rather as a form
> of necessity to prepare for an influx of more
> demanding students (and their parents) that the
> system knew would not stand for the level of
> incompetence. And I am seeking reasonable
> explanations, not mere defensiveness - the issue
> baffles me.

I cannot tell you how many times I talked to Domenech, Webb and Gibson about Realista. For years, Gibson refused to talk about her because it was a "personnel" issue and he didn't get involved in personnel issues. The frustration with the refusal to make a change was infuriating. Were they afraid of a discrimination suit by one of the few female minority principals? Were they waiting for her to retire? During her last several years she was double dipping, getting her salary and her retirement check. We were constantly being reminded that there were a shortage of principals. Were they waiting for a job to open up or be created to give her a promotion that was really a firing? Did the withholding of the Democratic endorsement from Gibson in 2003 finally get the message across? There actually were a few folks, and still are, people who spoke favorably about her.

I can't explain it.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 10:45PM by Thomas More.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I have not see a Fox Mill poll to date.

don't think there is one. Many of the people at Fox Mill are convinced that everything has already been settled and they are going to SLHS. So maybe if all are fine with that, there need be no poll.

Cricket Wrote:

> Don't know what's a regular size school? But it
> doesn't matter. If we were to listen to you,
> there should be no kids in these dwellings

No one made that argument. The argument made was more subtle, maybe too subtle for you. The argument made was that when compared to SFD neighborhoods, apartments and townhouses have a much lower ratio of kids per dwelling unit. Don't believe me, ask the School Department, ask the County Zoning staff. Ask any demographer.

More Later

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quantum,
> I agree with everything you say, your posts are
> fabulous. On NCLB we disagree. It is not driving
> these changes, rather the liberals are using it as
> an excuse to do their desired social engineering.
> If the democrats continue to dominate our school
> board I expect that in the next 4 years we will
> see ALL of our high schools redistricted to meet
> their social engineering goals. Of course there
> is ZERO evidence that putting a smart, hard
> working, Asian child in a class next to a an under
> achieving Black child, improves the education of
> either. NONE. Typical of the democrats, they
> refuse to believe that, because they FEEL it
> SHOULD work, much as they FEEL about Whole
> Language, and ever fuzzier math, and the wonderful
> 'open schools' that they built in the 1970's and
> 1980's that gave us South Lakes, with no outside
> windows and no interior doors.
>
> Don't they ever get sick of being wrong?

Thankfully Neen, we will now have outside windows and interior doors. BTW, no outside windows were a result of the energy crisis, not liberal open school philosophy.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Comments on sl verity's comments - you grossly
> oversimplify and are missing the key points behind
> parent's concerns...speaking of terms of good
> versus bad - your terms - evinces a lack of regard
> for the facts and a concern for the 'right"
> thoughtful way to do things, irrespective of the
> result that may be reached. See the comments
> below
>
>
Quantum, you are entirely correct. I was oversimplifying, but only to make a point and to exhibit my frustration with some of the misinformed comments being posted. As to your comment about there not being concerned parents at SL, just who do you think those of us posting on this forum are? My children aren't even in the school system anymore, and I am still interested in the outcome of this debate, precisely because I care and have always cared about my community, my childrens' education, and the education of younger children in my community.

I'd like to comment on the following statement from you:

SOUTH LAKES IS NOT "BAD", BUT IT DOES HAVE RISK FACTORS, AND A SIGNIFICANT POPULATION SEGMENT THAT HAS LITTLE IN COMMON IN TERMS OF ACADEMIC NEEDS OR FOCUS WITH THE AVERAGE STUDENT AT OAKTON, MADISON, AND THE LIKE.

Do you not see some commonality with SL parents posting here. I sincerely hope that you do, because if you can't see that we care as ardently about our children's education as the parents of Madison, Oakton, and the like, then there is no hope for comity in this debate.


ALL OF THESE FACTORS PROVIDE FOR A SENSE OF ANXIETY - AND OVERCOMING THAT ANXIETY MEANS THAT SOUTH LAKES MUST, IN MY VIEW, ASSIDUOUSLY WORK TO MEET THE DEMANDS OF THE TRANSFEROR STUDENTS TO MAKE THE TRANSFER WORK? NOT NECESSARY, YOU SAY? WELL, IF SOUTH LAKES DOESN'T, THEY WON'T GET THE STUDENTS, IRRESPECTIVE OF ANY FORCED MARCH FOISTED UPON THE AFFECTED FAMILIES. NO FORCE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN SUBURBAN PARENTS ON A MISSION TO PRESERVE THEIR KIDS FUTURE. BLUNTLY PUT, SOUTH LAKES MUST PUT FORTH A SIGNIFICANT EFFORT TO MAKE IT WORK, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.

South Lakes does very well with its middle class students. In fact, I would wager just as well as Oakton or Madison. It is not fair to look at the school-wide test results without considering the results for students like yours. Otherwise, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Consider that if we add 500-700 students from middle class families, the demographics, test results, etc., will all change dramatically. Also, please know that we very much want to welcome students and their families and have already put many things in play to make the transition very successful, including discussing adding AP classes.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't
> believe me, ask the School Department, ask the
> County Zoning staff. Ask any demographer.


Well, I was really just responding to what you wrote. I don't really need to consult anyone else. I understand that the lower-kid-ratio is what one would think. But not really around here. However, developers make good use of this illusion for their marketing materials. These folks you wish me to consult are the same folks that grossly miscalculated the enrollment for McNair--that is why it was already overcrowded when it opened. If these folks were a little bit more realistic, there would be no need for additions to McNair or to open a Coppermine. And oh yeah, you are not nearly as subtle as you imagine yourself. But its fun reading how you believe it so.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLverity,
> I suggest you give Christine a second look.
> Listen to her now, or call her on the phone. I
> think you'll be impressed. I totally agree that
> in the beginning she spoke too much about her own
> problems with her son in FCPS. Now she's much
> more focused on the community and what the schools
> need, particularly the low performing schools.
> She's seen the stats, she knows what has happened
> and what needs to be fixed. She's more than
> willing to listen to the community, something that
> voters haven't had in Hunter Mill for 12 years.
>
> Stu could have changed things in Reston schools.
> He had 12 years to get real reading programs, real
> math programs, programs that have worked in 11
> other districts in Virginia, and other parts of
> FCPS. He did nothing, because of ideology. His
> ideology came first, over the needs of students in
> his district. The results speak for themselves
> when we see other low income schools over coming
> their problems while Dogwood and McNair remain on
> the bottom.


I promise to give her a second look, but I don't like hearing that she does what appears to pandering depending on the group she is engaging at the time.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cricket Wrote:
> > > a ride down Coppermine to McNair Farms Dr. to
> > > Thomas Jefferson Drive conceptually reveals
> the
> > > same as Alabama Ave. I just don't believe
> that
> > > the Alabama Ave. is the sole contributor to
> > > McNair's non-English demographic. It can't
> be.
>
> I did just that today, and I saw
>
> Woodland Park a gated townhouse community with
> mercedes and BMW's in the driveways. Archstone at
> Woodland, Villages at Woodland. Expensive brick
> faced townhouse projects and new garden apts of
> similar quality everywhere. Talked to the manager
> of the Sunoco station. No crime. No loitering.
>
> This area south of the Toll Road would be a
> substantial upgrade for HHS and enable Aldrin join
> the other Reston kids at Reston's high school:
> South Lakes.
>
> Make no mistake it would raise the demographics of
> South Lakes also but it wouldn't unify the Reston
> community behind one high school but rather
> perpetuate Lou Zone's partitioning of Reston
> during the last redistricting 16 years ago.
> Unifying Reston in one high school district is my
> highest priority.
>
> Getting rid of IB is second.
>
> Apparently those two goals cannot be achieved with
> Stu, Webb and Bruce in place, so they all have to
> go.

I'm glad you also remember that Lou Zone was the most responsible for the partition. Webb has been retired for years, so you don't have to worry about her.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Word - you are absolutely correct. I have been
> asserting the same continuously. It baffles me
> why this would not be considered (ADDING AP CLASSES). Maybe some at
> South Lakes have a far more profound understanding
> of teacher limitations at South Lakes than they
> are willing to let on.

Quantum, you accused me of commenting simplistically, and then you go and post the comment above regarding the view that the best students who are redistricted will just pupil-place to other schools. Not only is your comment about the teachers insulting, but also amazing considering that you had just previously told me the following regarding IB:

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH AND THE STATEMENT REFLECTS A SIMPLISTIC WORLD VIEW. IB IS AN EXCELLENT PROGRAM - ESPECIALLY FOR TOP DRAWER STUDENTS WTIH THE CAPABILITY TO GET OVER 2100 ON THE SAT'S - IT IS JUST THAT ITS UTILITY TO THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENTS IN THE OAKTON/MADISON PROFILE. IB IS LESS FLEXIBLE THAN THE AP PROGRAM, IF ONLY BECAUSE THE SCORES CANNOT BE PROCESSED IN A TIMELY WAY THAT PERMITS STUDENTS TO ENGAGE MORE CONCRETELY IN COLLEGE AND CURRICULUM PLANNING. PUT ANECDOTALLY, A HANDFUL OF AP CLASSES IS OFTEN THE RIGHT DOSE OF MEDICINE FOR THE STUDENT MATRICULATING AT JMU, MARY WASHINGTON, VCU, ETC.

So are top drawer students going to throw themselves under the bus by pupil-placing to AP schools that provide adequate AP doses for getting into JMU, etc., when they could stay at SL and get a top-drawer education.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not all will seek pupil placement, just the
> best... maybe the top half. Spread that out over
> Oakton, Madison, Herndon, Westfield, Chantilly and
> the load is not that great.
>
> Why not just start an AP program and show some
> good faith. These new students will be sent by
> fiat, not by choice. Throw them a bone.

An arrogant comment. Do you think the students from last years' SL class now attending MIT, Cornell, Princeton, UVa, Temple, Middlebury, Wm & Mary, Navy, to name only a few, were second tier? Wake up and see that one can get into good schools with an IB education and open your mind to the possibility.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps there are a few concerned about that. (I
> really question the integrity of these anonymous
> complainers).
>
> I can tell you for certain that the previous
> results posted concerning the Franklin Farm
> community (1%-3%) would choose South Lakes are
> accurate. Personally, I know of no one that wants
> to switch high schools.

Perhaps they don't mention it in front of you for fear of being told they would be an idiot to send their child to a school like SL.

SLVerity Wrote:
-----

> Webb has been retired for years, so you don't have to worry
> about her.

So who took over for her and when. I know they rearranged the boxes on the organizational chart but whose Butler's boss now?

More Later

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maybe some at
> > South Lakes have a far more profound
> understanding
> > of teacher limitations at South Lakes than they
> > are willing to let on.
>
> Only the Butler pets and Gibson partisans on the
> PTA board would deny the disfunctional state of
> the instructional staff that Realista left us.
>
> A former math teacher who has since left SL told
> me, when IB came in, that the parallel IB course
> covered less material than the AP course he had
> taught for several years at SL. He also didn't
> like that it demanded more home work/make work
> from the students.
>
> Maybe your hypothesis is right. Maybe IB was
> brought by Webb in to cover for a cheaper, less
> experience, less qualified staff.

So math homework is make-work? Did you children take the higher-level IB math classes? Do you have direct knowledge besides anecdotal information from a former teacher? Since your children do not and have not taken IB, are you really in a position to comment?

Quantum,

One last comment before bed. SL parents wholeheartedly complained about the last principal, beginning with her 'appointment' to the school without solicitation of any input from parents/teachers. The standard review process was not employed. It was announced that she was to be our principal. So parents were resentful from the start.

I think the situation was sticky, because she was a minority, much as I hate to say it. You have to also understand that roughly 50% of the parent population did not care or did not have the capacity to care. The other half were vocal, but it was hard. After several years of her, morale was down, parents felt unempowered - even me, if you can imagine. Also, the school's reputation had suffered so much that it was difficult to defend it.

She was not replaced because the school board was gearing up for an impending fight, but rather because they could no longer excuse the inexcusable test scores of the minority students.

The review process before hiring Bruce was entirely different. Parents and teachers were involved in the interview process. Bruce Butler was impressive during his interview, had specific and definable goals for the school, and programs laid out for implementing them. He was by far the most impressive candidate, and there were actually several very good ones. When he spoke of the school though, it was with passion and drive, and I think that was what determined the outcome.

Despite what Thomas More says, the change in attitude at the school and in the community since BB took the helm has been tremendous and positive. Pride in the school has been restored, little by little. Test scores are on an upward trend, even with minorities, though admittedly work remains to be done there. What we really lack now is enough middle class families fill in our teams, music programs, etc. We do very well with the students we have now, have excellent, albeit small music programs, etc.

We could be an amazing school if we had just enough middle class families to keep us from reaching that tipping point that seems to spell failing school.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> -----
>
> > Webb has been retired for years, so you don't
> have to worry
> > about her.
>
> So who took over for her and when. I know they
> rearranged the boxes on the organizational chart
> but whose Butler's boss now?

Betsey Goodman, District VIII, I believe. She is in charge of 3 pyramids - Oakton, Westfield, and South Lakes.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So math homework is make-work? Did you children
> take the higher-level IB math classes? Do you
> have direct knowledge besides anecdotal
> information from a former teacher? Since your
> children do not and have not taken IB, are you
> really in a position to comment?

I trusted this teacher with my child's life on multiple occasions. His opinion on this subject is more valuable to me than any other source. Ignore it if you want. Besides its not an anecdote but a professional opinion.

>>>They witheld the endorsement in 2003 because he hadn't gotten rid of Realista.<<<

Surely you don't believe that ANY political party would care who is principal at whatever school and use that as a reason to not endorse.

Honestly Thomas, you're looking like a fool here. Anyone who was around in 2003 knows that the democratic party endorsed Stu. There is nothing on the questionnaire for endorsement that mentions the principal of any school. Nor is it mentioned in the interview before the committee. It's simply not relevant. The county committee couldn't care less about the issues at one school, or any school. They want to get candidates elected who share their ideology. That's it. Stu shares their ideology AND he was an incumbent in 2003. Of course they endorsed him.

Perhaps you will believe this article in the Post:
"Under Virginia law, school boards are nonpartisan, but in Fairfax, no candidate has won election without the backing of a major political party."

See? NO ONE without the backing of a political party has EVER won. Stu is included. He had the backing of the party every time he ran. Unless of course you think that Stu Gibson was endorsed by republicans in 2003.

I've given you two sources, from the Post, that say Stu was endorsed by the democrats in 2003. If you choose to believe what ONE guy/gal in Reston told you, you will continue to look foolish. Unless, of course, you've found sources better than the Post that say Stu was not endorsed by the democrats in 2003. You won't find them, because they don't exist, but I welcome your search results.

Thomas More said:

"This kid is dropping out of pre-English and back to normal college prep english."

What is that course? What is normal college prep English? The other high schools have no such course. Is this IB course? Or an Honors English class?

>>>Apparently, Stu sent out hate flyers today about Arakelian. Guess he and Kathy cooked this idea up together...<<<

Did these flyers come in the mail? Can anyone here post a copy?

Sounds like they're getting desperate. How ugly of them. No one has treated them that way. I can only hope that it backfires on them both.

Quantum

I also called Betsey Goodman trying to get rid of Railly. What ultimately got us rid of her? Who knows?

More Later

BTW, the lastest enrollment numbers show Oakton over enrolled by 25 students and Madison by 35, so students will not be able to pupil place into either school. The excuse will be that there isn't room. All the AP schools around South Lakes are now over enrolled, except Centreville which has 43 empty seats and Herndon has 35.

It would appear that staff has closed this method of exit from South Lakes.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So math homework is make-work? Did you
> children
> > take the higher-level IB math classes? Do you
> > have direct knowledge besides anecdotal
> > information from a former teacher? Since your
> > children do not and have not taken IB, are you
> > really in a position to comment?
>
> I trusted this teacher with my child's life on
> multiple occasions. His opinion on this subject
> is more valuable to me than any other source.
> Ignore it if you want. Besides its not an
> anecdote but a professional opinion.

I'll give you that. I think the new math dept. chair is excellent and my son loved both Mr. Sharpe - Math Methods I (Pre-Calc) and his MMII (calc) teacher (name escapes me but she is Russian).

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, the lastest enrollment numbers show Oakton
> over enrolled by 25 students and Madison by 35, so
> students will not be able to pupil place into
> either school. The excuse will be that there
> isn't room. All the AP schools around South Lakes
> are now over enrolled, except Centreville which
> has 43 empty seats and Herndon has 35.
>
> It would appear that staff has closed this method
> of exit from South Lakes.

Are you implying that the numbers are cooked? Do I mis-understand.

>>>We could be an amazing school if we had just enough middle class families to keep us from reaching that tipping point that seems to spell failing school.<<<

It seems that the tipping point has been passed in the minds of the extended community, if not in reality. If it hadn't, this discussion would not have reached 24 pages and www.StopRd.org would not be as effective as it has been, with so many supporters.

The school board and staff need to fix the mess they've created, BEFORE they can expect the support of those outside the boundaries of South Lakes. There must be a positive reason to attend South Lakes, a program that attracts students. The school board can do that. They can make a program that meets the needs and desires of students, rather than continuing to meet the wants and desires of principals and administrative staff. Without doing that first, no redistricting will succeed. If you doubt that, you need only look at Marshall high school.

SLVerity Wrote:
> I'll give you that. I think the new math dept.
> chair is excellent and my son loved both Mr.
> Sharpe - Math Methods I (Pre-Calc) and his MMII
> (calc) teacher (name escapes me but she is
> Russian).


Samedov

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If
> you choose to believe what ONE guy/gal in Reston
> told you, you will continue to look foolish.
> Unless, of course, you've found sources better
> than the Post that say Stu was not endorsed by the
> democrats in 2003.

At the meeting where the discussion of the inadequacies of the South Lakes principal were reviewed in the Spring of 2003, Sen. Howell and Delgate Plum were present. Delegate Plum stated there had been a problem with the leadership at South Lakes almost since the day it opened. The HMDC chairman said that if Stu was ignoring the community and taking no action on Railly's inadequecies, the party could not endorse him. I don't know how much more detail you need to know to accept that he wasn't endorsed in 2003. Unlike this year, his signs in 2003 made no mention of a party endorsement, though they did have the "teacher endorsed" flyer on the top.

Since you've obviously have never been involved in Hunter Mill Democratic Committee affairs, why are you so insistent on an event that you didn't participate in and have no first hand knowledge of?

More Later



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 02:47AM by Thomas More.

Thomas,
Principals don't really have any boss. We have 'site based management'. Principals are in charge of their own little fiefdom and can do what they want.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'll give you that. I think the new math dept.
> chair is excellent and my son loved both Mr.
> Sharpe - Math Methods I (Pre-Calc) and his MMII
> (calc) teacher (name escapes me but she is
> Russian).

If my youngest shows any interest in that area I will definitely keep your review in mind.

Not every teacher at Sl is horrible I listed several superb ones in an earlier posting. There are just too few good and great ones.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 01:00AM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>We could be an amazing school if we had just
> enough middle class families to keep us from
> reaching that tipping point that seems to spell
> failing school.<<<
>
> It seems that the tipping point has been passed in
> the minds of the extended community, if not in
> reality. If it hadn't, this discussion would not
> have reached 24 pages and www.StopRd.org would not
> be as effective as it has been, with so many
> supporters.
>
> The school board and staff need to fix the mess
> they've created, BEFORE they can expect the
> support of those outside the boundaries of South
> Lakes. There must be a positive reason to attend
> South Lakes, a program that attracts students.
> The school board can do that. They can make a
> program that meets the needs and desires of
> students, rather than continuing to meet the wants
> and desires of principals and administrative
> staff. Without doing that first, no redistricting
> will succeed. If you doubt that, you need only
> look at Marshall high school.

Was a large portion of another school redistricted to Marshall and then did not go? I was not aware. From what I've seen, Marshall seems to do quite well despite its size. I think that area has also aged, with not much in the way of new housing except along Idyllwood.

You ask that new programs that attract you be added before redistricting is to be considered. From a budgetary standpoint, the new programs/courses can't be added UNLESS there is redistricting. If that happens, then the increased enrollment justifies the addition of new programs.

It appears that you are setting up a straw man argument.

If AP courses were added that filled in perceived gaps in IB, what would be objectionable? Many on this site have told you that IB is basically the same as AP in that a menu of courses can be taken without doing the whole diploma.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you need only
> look at Marshall high school.

To what are you refering. My nephews attend Marshall. Their parents are very happy with their experience there. I'm envious of their contentment.

More Later

Of course Stu's signs don't say democrat party endorsed. They can't. He's under the Hatch Act. That's how Stu and the democrats nailed Al White when he ran in Sully against Kathy Smith. Al put the party endorsement sign on his signs, and the democrats nailed him under the Hatch Act.

Do Stu's signs this year say that he has democratic party endorsement? If so, he has made a HUGE mistake. He could lose his real job. I seriously doubt that he would be that dumb. In fact, I know that he wouldn't. He's never used party endorsement on his signs.

I am 100% certain that Stu was endorsed by the democrats in 2003. Why don't you drop him an email and ask him? I'm sure that he wouldn't mind telling you. stugibson4sb@yahoo.com or stuart.gibson@fcps.edu

You are quite wrong on the personal knowledge part of your argument.

You need to write to Stu about this issue because someone is lying to you about what transpired. I wouldn't want you to continue believing your source because he's lying to you. Please, write Stu and ask. He'll be honest with you. He'd never put it in writing that he was endorsed in 2003 if he wasn't. I promise you, he was endorsed each time by the democratic party. Republicans always declined to endorse him. Feel free to ask him about that too.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do Stu's signs this year say that he has
> democratic party endorsement? If so, he has made
> a HUGE mistake. He could lose his real job. I
> seriously doubt that he would be that dumb. In
> fact, I know that he wouldn't. He's never used
> party endorsement on his signs.

I'll double check in the morning but I'm fairly certain they do this year and so do his mailings.

> I am 100% certain that Stu was endorsed by the
> democrats in 2003. Why don't you drop him an
> email and ask him?

He's already been dishonest about the 2003 commitment to Aldrin and Armstong. Why would I either ask him or believe him?

> You are quite wrong on the personal knowledge part
> of your argument.

So you were part of the Hunter Mill Democratic Committee in 2003?

With Purvis as his opponent in 2003 not having the party endorsement was not fatal as it would have been this year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 01:20AM by Thomas More.

Thomas,
Twenty years ago or so, Marshall was under enrolled so the north end of Vienna, outside the town limits, was redistricted to go to Marshall. It never worked, they've always been under enrolled. This year they have 1,325 students in a facility that could hold 1,600+. This is one of their largest enrollments. They're tried everything to attract new students and out of boundary students, lots of academy courses, IB, computer certification programs, culinary program, hotel management, auto body, auto repair, international program, and they still can't get the enrollment up. Their SAT scores are the lowest of the schools around them, McLean, Madison, Langley. Their population of white students is 55%, while Langley is 73%, McLean 66%, Oakton 67% and Madison 74%. The white families who were redistricted to Marshall never showed up so their population has stayed right around 1,300 students. The same thing will happen at South Lakes if they don't get some attractive programs into the school FIRST. Without an attraction, higher income families will simply go elsewhere. Of course this should have been done at South Lakes years back.

I'm glad that your relatives are happy at their school. Most people who send their children to a school would report that they like it, or they would have to justify sending their children to a school that was under enrolled and somewhat less desirable. I'm sure you understand that. People always think that the school they send their child to is a good school. They have to think that, or they'd have to move their children to another school. Wouldn't they? Most parents couldn't live with the thought that they were sending their children to a less desirable school.

Thomas,
If you won't believe Stu, ask Janie, or any other democrat who was endorsed in 2003. Ask anyone who was around then. I am 100% certain. Totally. Completely. Pick a democrat on the school board who you trust and ask him/her. Ask Phil. Or Kaye Kory. Or Moon. Any of them. I'd be happy to get their email addresses for you.

Stu would not lie in writing about anything. He's a lawyer. He knows what to put in writing and what not to. The man is not dumb. I suspect you know that, and you know that the Washington Post is right and so am I. Your 'friend' has lied to you.

Email me if you want more details on how I know. I am not going into those details here.

Thomas,
How many mailings has Stu sent out this year? Did you see today's mailing, bashing Arakelian? What did it say?

Thanks.

Sorry, but IB is not 'basically the same as AP". It simply isn't. If it were, the top private and public schools would have IB. They don't.

> "This kid is dropping out of pre-English and back
> to normal college prep english."
>
> What is that course? What is normal college prep
> English? The other high schools have no such
> course. Is this IB course? Or an Honors English
> class?

I don't remember seeing honors courses in the SL course catalog. As I understand it, in 10th grade a kids doesn't take IB classes. You can take a course that's pre-IB or take the same course in a non-pre-IB format. I'm sure the IB afficiandos were dispute, correct, repudiate the foregoing.

Neen Wrote:
>
> I'm glad that your relatives are happy at their
> school. Most people who send their children to a
> school would report that they like it, or they
> would have to justify sending their children to a
> school that was under enrolled and somewhat less
> desirable. I'm sure you understand that. People
> always think that the school they send their child
> to is a good school. They have to think that, or
> they'd have to move their children to another
> school. Wouldn't they? Most parents couldn't
> live with the thought that they were sending their
> children to a less desirable school.

I think the paragraph above displays some arrogance. Could it be that they are just happy with the school?

Less desirable? - if you are as conservative as you seem to imply, I am surprised that you can't acknowledge that a person can go to a 'less desirable' school and still do well, with a little effort and hard work.

You seem to be very concerned about the labels - 'good school,' 'less desirable school.' Are you afraid that if your kids go to South Lakes that you will be judged harshly by peers in surrounding districts? Are you implying that those of us who kept our children at SL are saps? Or that you would be one if your child went there.

Careful, or you will undo any good arguments you have presented thus far.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, but IB is not 'basically the same as AP".
> It simply isn't. If it were, the top private and
> public schools would have IB. They don't.

Can you explain George Mason in Falls Church and Robinson in Fairfax, both considered top schools and both having IB. Yes I know Robinson has AP too, but Mason is strictly IB. How about Trinity Episcopal in Richmond, a private prep school.

I've stated this before and have been ignored. Are these facts not convenient to your argument?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > "This kid is dropping out of pre-English and
> back
> > to normal college prep english."
> >
> > What is that course? What is normal college
> prep
> > English? The other high schools have no such
> > course. Is this IB course? Or an Honors
> English
> > class?
>
> I don't remember seeing honors courses in the SL
> course catalog. As I understand it, in 10th grade
> a kids doesn't take IB classes. You can take a
> course that's pre-IB or take the same course in a
> non-pre-IB format. I'm sure the IB afficiandos
> were dispute, correct, repudiate the foregoing.

Pre-IB = Honors courses at AP schools.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> How many mailings has Stu sent out this year?

I've seen one so far

Did
> you see today's mailing, bashing Arakelian? What
> did it say?

not yet

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm glad that your relatives are happy at their
> school. Most people who send their children to a
> school would report that they like it, or they
> would have to justify sending their children to a
> school that was under enrolled and somewhat less
> desirable. I'm sure you understand that. People
> always think that the school they send their child
> to is a good school. They have to think that, or
> they'd have to move their children to another
> school. Wouldn't they? Most parents couldn't
> live with the thought that they were sending their
> children to a less desirable school.

Their Mom is a PHD candidate and very involved in their children's education. We've talked in detail about the strengths and weakness of Marshall and SL. So this not wishful thinking or whistling in the dark.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 01:48AM by Thomas More.

Oh Neeeeen!!!

George Mason, an all IB school? Have you checked their SAT scores, rankings in the Challenge Index, percent of kids on Free & reduced lunch, etc. For example: 2007 aggregate SAT 1737. By comparison Oakton 1680.

Incidentally, both Oakton and Madison lost SAT points this year, by 33 and 23 points respectively. And both were down from the year before in math and verbal. Am I to infer that fortunes at those schools are declining, or that they may be becoming 'less desirable'?

SL, of course kids can achieve in one of the lower performing schools. I would never say otherwise. But it's more difficult when the school climate doesn't support that achievement.

Yes, I found it interesting that the only group of students who didn't improve on the SAT were whites. Every other race went up. I hope that means that they are teaching more SAT prep courses at low performing schools. I know that the Madison principal has heard plenty about their declining scores and of course TJ scores have gone down since they began the latest affirmative action program.

Thomas, Can you tell me what makes Marshall a program that makes you feel envious? What are they doing that SL isn't doing?

To Drive the Point home that IB is not just for low income or failing schools the following press release from George Mason in Falls Church:

George Mason High School SAT Scores Rise
Gains are considered “Significant”

Released: August 29, 2007


Release # 070829_03
Contact:
Karen Acar, Dir. of Communications
(703) 248-5699 (office)

Printable version -

The Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) scores are in, and the results are excellent for the George Mason High School Class of 2007. In a year when state and national averages dropped, the GMHS scores rose substantially from 2006.

“A gain of 10 points would be considered significant,” Superintendent Lois Berlin said. “Our students’ gain of 28 points overall is extraordinary, and we are so proud of their success.”

Here’s a look at the GMHS SAT scores as well as the state and national averages:


Verbal Math Writing Combined GMHS Class of 2007
586 587 564 1737

The percentage of George Mason High School students who took the SAT also increased from about 75 percent in 2006 to 89 percent in 2007. Principal Bob Snee says the participation rate and scores are a reflection of both the high school offerings and student goals.

“Our students are motivated, focused and appropriately challenged by George Mason High School teachers and curriculum. Our students have consistently scored above state and national SAT averages, and we are pleased with this year’s performance.”

The George Mason High School Class of 2007 also recorded the highest high school graduation rate in the area (97.4%), and 10 percent of the class received National Merit Scholar recognition as either finalists or commended students. Roughly 90 percent of the GMHS graduates are seeking post-secondary degrees, primarily in 4-year colleges and universities.

Any comment?

Robinson has both, AP and IB. I don't know much about George Mason high school and why they chose IB. It's a small school, with students coming from mostly high income families, the majority will do fine wherever they go to school.

What about Potomac school, Flint Hill, Landren, St Albans, Visitation? Andover? Georgetown Prep? Bullis?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SL, of course kids can achieve in one of the lower
> performing schools. I would never say otherwise.
> But it's more difficult when the school climate
> doesn't support that achievement.

How do you know that school climate doesn't support achievement at South Lakes? You could not be more wrong. Do you have first-hand knowledge or is this just your opinion based on hearsay?

>
> Yes, I found it interesting that the only group of
> students who didn't improve on the SAT were
> whites. Every other race went up. I hope that
> means that they are teaching more SAT prep courses
> at low performing schools. I know that the
> Madison principal has heard plenty about their
> declining scores and of course TJ scores have gone
> down since they began the latest affirmative
> action program.

No comment on declining fortunes? How to explain the drop? Is AP not preparing the white students properly? Are teachers at Madison and Oakton falling behind or sub-par as has been suggested about South Lakes' teachers. Incidentally, South Lakes scores went up this year.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robinson has both, AP and IB. I don't know much
> about George Mason high school and why they chose
> IB. It's a small school, with students coming
> from mostly high income families, the majority
> will do fine wherever they go to school.
>
> What about Potomac school, Flint Hill, Landren, St
> Albans, Visitation? Andover? Georgetown Prep?
> Bullis?

Who cares. I give you an excellent example and you can't acknowledge that perhaps IB might have something to do with their success. In their case it must be all about the high income families. Isn't the point I have been making all along that middle class students transferring to South Lakes will do fine with IB. If they do fine at GM, why not at SL. Same program. Incidentally, GM has has IB for many more years than it's been in Fairfax Schools and they love it. It's a one-school system and they could chuck it at any time but they haven't.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robinson has both, AP and IB. I don't know much
> about George Mason high school and why they chose
> IB. It's a small school, with students coming
> from mostly high income families, the majority
> will do fine wherever they go to school.
>
> What about Potomac school, Flint Hill, Landren, St
> Albans, Visitation? Andover? Georgetown Prep?
> Bullis?

I believe that I said Robinson has both AP and IB. Note that their SAT scores are lower than George Mason's - perhaps AP has watered down their achievement./sarcasm off

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yes, I found it interesting that the only group of
> students who didn't improve on the SAT were
> whites. Every other race went up. I hope that
> means that they are teaching more SAT prep courses
> at low performing schools. I know that the
> Madison principal has heard plenty about their
> declining scores and of course TJ scores have gone
> down since they began the latest affirmative
> action program.

Do you see the irony in saying on one hand that you hope more SAT prep is being taught at low performing schools - (aside: are Madison and Oakton now low performing?). Then in the next breath you bemoan AA at TJ. Careful or folks might think you are racist. If high income white kids will do well wherever they go, as you previously stated, what does it matter if a handful of minorities are sprinkled in at TJ? Didn't you say that you have a child at TJ? Worried about labels again?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> Twenty years ago or so, Marshall was under
> enrolled so the north end of Vienna, outside the
> town limits, was redistricted to go to Marshall.
> It never worked, they've always been under
> enrolled. This year they have 1,325 students in a
> facility that could hold 1,600+. This is one of
> their largest enrollments. They're tried
> everything to attract new students and out of
> boundary students, lots of academy courses, IB,
> computer certification programs, culinary program,
> hotel management, auto body, auto repair,
> international program, and they still can't get
> the enrollment up. Their SAT scores are the
> lowest of the schools around them, McLean,
> Madison, Langley. Their population of white
> students is 55%, while Langley is 73%, McLean 66%,
> Oakton 67% and Madison 74%. The white families
> who were redistricted to Marshall never showed up
> so their population has stayed right around 1,300
> students.

This redistricting was part of the same effort when Lou Zone cut Reston in half and described in someone else's earlier posting.

My relatives were so positive about Marshall and its relative new principal that my older son, my wife and I gave serious consideration to pupil-placing him there to take the advanced business and accounting classes



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 02:35AM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, Can you tell me what makes Marshall a
> program that makes you feel envious? What are
> they doing that SL isn't doing?

The principal was responsive to my relatives request for assistance on multiple occasions. The teachers were experienced, supportive and collegial with the parents with the aim of helping the nephews achieve their maximum potential. If the teacher was a jerk the principal "made straight the path."

Remember this was at the height of Railly's Reign of Terror when she wasn't talking to anyone and the great teachers were leaving in droves.

More Later

>>>the new programs/courses can't be added UNLESS there is redistricting<<<

Why not? Of course new programs can be added to attract students. The school board can do anything they want. They could easily provide South Lakes with extra money and extra teachers to set up a new magnet program that would attract kids from other districts. That's exactly how they set up TJ.

TJ had some good teachers, and some less than great teachers, and a few who were fabulous. Madison has more good teachers and a couple of great teachers. Overall, TJ has a higher level of learner, a larger group of students dedicated to learning, but Madison often had the better teachers. Yes, teachers can make ALL the difference. Madison had a drunk teacher, falling down drunk, that took way to long to get rid of her, despite numerous complaints to the principal. Only when she injured herself falling down a entire flight of stairs and requiring an ambulance, was she removed from the classroom and sent to an office somewhere.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, the lastest enrollment numbers show Oakton
> over enrolled by 25 students and Madison by 35, so
> students will not be able to pupil place into
> either school. The excuse will be that there
> isn't room. All the AP schools around South Lakes
> are now over enrolled, except Centreville which
> has 43 empty seats and Herndon has 35.
>
> It would appear that staff has closed this method
> of exit from South Lakes.


except the enrollments are decling at many schools and if a group gets shifted out of somewhere(s), there has to be room somewhere(s). In total the schools are not overcrowded.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> word Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Perhaps there are a few concerned about that.
> (I
> > really question the integrity of these
> anonymous
> > complainers).
> >
> > I can tell you for certain that the previous
> > results posted concerning the Franklin Farm
> > community (1%-3%) would choose South Lakes are
> > accurate. Personally, I know of no one that
> wants
> > to switch high schools.
>
> Perhaps they don't mention it in front of you for
> fear of being told they would be an idiot to send
> their child to a school like SL.

Exactly right, SLVerity, I know people from Fox Mill and Crossfield who are in favor of SL but keep their mouth shut when talking to neighbors, for just this reason.

Also SLVerity--Christine is not pandering to groups. If you read her blog, she does not say she is against redistricting. She believes that the process should be open and fair, and should include discussions about AP, but she is not promising no one will get redistricted. On curriculum issues, she is way ahead of Stu.

I find it interesting that she is Republican, yet the only person in the debate standing up for our underprivileged populations and saying they can and should be doing better. Stu says they are doing fine, even though Hunter Mill has the lowest performing students in those populations in FFX county.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 08:06AM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

SL Verity - you make often make good points - but it would be helpful to refrain from emotionalism - such as stating that certain points are "insulting" or "offense". Having strident positions is not tantamount to insult or offense, and certainly merely stating that there is a significant preference for the AP program over the IB program for the affected population is far from "offensive" or "insulting", especially since it ignores the distinction fairly made that while IB is an excellent program for the right kind of kids, it is not the preferred approach for most of the transferor population. Put another way, merely holding an opinion that one program better meets the needs of the population than another is reasonable, and thereafter stating it is axiomatic that many of the same population (middle to upper middle class with deep concern for their children) would pupil place in the absence of a meaningful AP program is likewise reasonable.

But your last post reveals some insight as to why you are defensive. I can see from your post that South Lakes parents and supporters in effect do feel besieged, because they have been through a difficult time. And I find it striking that the kind of honest statements you relate only come about after strident debate and probing - things must have been very challenging at South Lakes. Let's assume your statement that only 50% of the affected parents care is accurate - my intuition is that you are spot on. But wow, that kind of parental involvement in in a well off suburb like Reston? How depressing. Profoundly depressing. And it really confirms my views on the cultural problems that exist in certain communities when it comes to education. Reston is a well off suburb that offers zillions of services and amenities that literally is as close to Sweden in America as it gets - generally (obviously there are certain individuals with life impairments) there's no real impediment to parental involvement - other than cultural ones. Again, how depressing, and it really explains just how badly the school wants, and needs, an influx of middle class students with a sense of an educational mission appurtenant. My view, oft stated, however, is that they won't in a non-transitory way obtain these students unless they really compete for them - such is the way of the world. Like it or not, the 1 to 3 percent opt to South Lakes factor in the Franklin Farm survey is real (and if the number is even 10 percent, it doesn't matter because that kind of statistical imbalance is really profound), and South Lakes really must compete for them as if they were a private school - a high challenge - but one that they must embrace. Pity or any appeal to an altruistic sense of social justice will not do it - it is their kids' education at stake - and don't easily expect parents to come along for the ride - that 50% factor doesn't scare parents in Oakton, etc. as much as it deeply disillusions them.

Man quit the OAKTON bashing, who cares if the SAT's are down start another post for that. Did you ever think that some kids just bomb the SAT the first time, inexperience, not prepared, whatever the case may be. As far as the Franklin Farm poll, for the record all residents had the opportunity to submit, of those that did overwhelmingly only 1-3% would consider SLHS. We will settle with the poor teaching and low SAT scores at Oakton. Leave us alone. Those that have positive feelings at or for SLHS great go there and enjoy, and we will do the same. You take IB and we will take AP it is a choice, that is the great thing about America the right to choose. Just like voting, please vote accordingly a vote for democrat gibson or smith will not allow you to choose SLHS or Oakton, they (STUpid and Kathy) will choose for you. we must not allow this to happen. Last night I received a call from someone encouraging a NO VOTE for Smith the caller was very well informed and gave me some great information. Keep calling folks it is working

Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > We have discussed IB. Most kids I know at SL
> do
> > take " a handful" of IB classes, just like AP,
> > mixed with Honors classes. Not sure why you
> can't
> > accept this. Also, Thomas' experiences are
> only
> > one. Other people have posted they don't have
> a
> > problem with timing of results.
>
>
> Re: Quantum's previous comments and others about
> IB/AP and pupil placing. Bruce Butler has
> specifically said to a group of 7 of my neighbors
> who I will get to post, if necessary, (in effect
> this isn't hearsay) - that he would add AP classes
> but needed the numbers of students to do so. In
> other words, he needs the volume of transferors
> who would be interested in adding AP classes to
> actually add AP. With the current population of
> 1400, he cannot afford to have both programs - but
> with 500-700 more kids he will.


I am one of "old timers" neighbors mentioned above. I was at that meeting with Bruce - he did say that if enough interested students enrolled he would add AP courses to the SL curriculum.

IBgood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I was at that meeting with Bruce - he did
> say that if enough interested students enrolled he
> would add AP courses to the SL curriculum.

And you heard him also say that he'd only add AP classes that weren't redundant of IB classes. Given the breadth of the IB course offerings, is there really anything left for an AP course? Isn't this promise illusory?

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 09:04AM by Thomas More.