word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes Westfield was too big and the problem is being
> fixed
> ---- McNair is being transferred to South Lakes

I'll bet Westfield would just love it if McNair transferred to South Lakes. Problems solved for Westfield.

Why would anyone think that McNair would be the solution, when it is geographically much further from South Lakes than Fox Mill or Crossfield.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> I didn't count the number of colleges in that
> menu--the list is very long obviously. Be my
> guest!

If you're trying to convince the parents of prospectively realigned students that IB is as widely accepted as AP at the November meeting and beyond, its a number you'd want to know and widely dissemiate. Thus, the burden of persuasion, proof and, unfortunately, dear friend, counting is yours.

I, on the other hand, hope, for reasons I have already described, that the reluctance of the prospective transferees to come to SL without AP courses will result in the School Board either providing surfeit of AP courses at SL or replacing IB with AP entirely.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> word Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes Westfield was too big and the problem is
> being
> > fixed
> > ---- McNair is being transferred to South Lakes
>
> I'll bet Westfield would just love it if McNair
> transferred to South Lakes. Problems solved for
> Westfield.
>
> Why would anyone think that McNair would be the
> solution, when it is geographically much further
> from South Lakes than Fox Mill or Crossfield.

Because unlike the vociferousness of the opposition that is already reached fever pitch among the Crossfields parents (See Crossfield PTA Website), it is anticipated that the McNair parents will be less involved (See their Website). Thus, the course of least resisitance for his craveness is McNair to SL.

Thomas,
I'm just providing information for people if they care to look at it. If they don't want to be convinced, no amount of data or facts will change their minds. That's been demonstrated throughout this blog.

The more important question is why did you post erroneous information (100-150 colleges accept IB)?

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> I'm just providing information for people if they
> care to look at it. If they don't want to be
> convinced, no amount of data or facts will change
> their minds. That's been demonstrated throughout
> this blog.
>
> The more important question is why did you post
> erroneous information (100-150 colleges accept
> IB)?

That's the best information I had which I received from Jay Matthews, education writer for the Post and IB advocate.

My genius husband was able to reduce the menu on the site to a text file. There are 1342 entries.

So, the number of colleges and universities that accept IB is 1342.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My genius husband was able to reduce the menu on
> the site to a text file. There are 1342 entries.
>
> So, the number of colleges and universities that
> accept IB is 1342.

The directory says it has 1341 entries on its front page. (I hope you still consider hubby a genius, as all men are convinced they are. Sorry to blow your cover, old man.)

That there are 1341 entries is not proof that 1342 of 1400 univeristies give advancement placement credit for IB. Any number of the entries that I reviewed reflected that there was no policy or that the univeristy in question didn't give credit.

So may be Mr. Matthews was accurate after all.

Further, not all of the participants on this blog have a closed mind on IB. Though mine is made up of this issue, I suspect numerous parents at the November mtg will want the most up to date info on this question and will be comforted if IB does result in advance placement credit at a substantial percentage of U.S. universities.

Happy counting, investigating, inquiring.

Further review of the IB US directory shows many of the entries to be for community colleges. There are 1,900 community colleges in the US. If that total were add to the 1400 four-year schools, the potential total for IB would be 3,300. That the IB directory has only 1341 entries in the US means that even if all 1341 entries confirm individual course advance placement (which they don't) less than 40% of 2 and 4 year institutions give such credit.

I don't think all of the colleges that do give credit are on that list. I know William and Mary gives credit (from a friend whose kid goes there) and it is not on the list.

There are about 98 community colleges on the list. This was easy to count in the text file.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2007 10:56PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Some of the entries are duplicates. Some of the entries are for scholarship programs. Junior colleges are also listed. Then many of the entries are vague about individual courses. Some schools only give credit for a 7 or 8 score on higher level courses, whatever they are. Others give credit for standard level courses. Which invites the inquiry: How many Higher level courses does SL offer?

This way too complicated.

It's also more clear why the scores aren't getting to colleges in time. The exams are taken in May of senior year and not reported until July. Many colleges today have freshman orientation and class registration in June right after high graduation. So the IB course exam grade isn't available until after freshman have registered for class.

Thomas More said:
>>>Longitudinal evaluations of FFX students over the course of study in FFX find primary school students at the top nationally and internationally and gradually losing ground over the twelve years. Some wag has been known to say that FFX County schools make their kids dumber over the course of 12 years.<<<

I do not know if that is true for the majority of students but it is true for Black students. They longer they are in FCPS the further behind grade level they fall.

People have fallen into believing our schools are great because of Jay Mathews little ranking, based solely on AP and IB tests. There are schools across the country that do far better than FCPS.

For most students at TJ, UVA is a backup school. But after being accepted, and learning more about UVA Honor programs, about 125 TJ kids go to UVA each year. Of course many more are accepted at UVA. With the average SAT being 1450, and the average GPA being 3.9, it's not surprising that most of their graduates would be accepted at UVA.

>>>>Yes Westfield was too big and the problem is being fixed
---- McNair is being transferred to South Lakes<<<<

That's what I'm hearing too.

Why did they make Westfield so big, only to decide it's too big a few years later? Can these folks never get it right? Or do they just use the numbers to justify doing whatever they want? In one instance big is good, but not if they need to move kids to another school? In that case, big is bad and those kids need to be moved to South Lakes.

Why wouldn't everyone be happy with McNair going to South Lakes? It makes South Lakes even more diverse, which South Lakes parents say diversity is what makes South Lakes so terrific. More diversity will be a good thing for them. It's a win-win-win-win, South Lakes is happy, more students and more diversity, Westfield is happy, and Herndon, and Oakton.

Colleges give credit for high level IB courses only. They do not give credit for standard level IB courses. Many students at TJ, Woodson, Madison, etc, graduate with over 30 AP credits. My oldest had 39 credits when he left TJ. It's virtually impossible to get that many in an IB program, and impossible unless a student gets the full diploma. With AP a student doesn't even have to take the course to get the credit, just study on their own and take the AP exam.

One needs only to look around the county at which schools have IB and which have AP to know what most college bound students, and their parents, prefer. If any of the top schools, Aldrin, Armstrong, Fox Mill or Crossfield, go to South Lakes, there will be an AP program there. Once South Lakes is allowed to transition to an AP school, other schools will follow. But that's a lot of 'ifs'.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not know if that is true for the majority of
> students

The reports say the studies are for all students

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Colleges give credit for high level IB courses
> only. They do not give credit for standard level
> IB courses.

Reviewing the IB web site listings for individual colleges shows that some schools do give advance placement credit for the standard IB courses, some don't.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why wouldn't everyone be happy with McNair going
> to South Lakes? It makes South Lakes even more
> diverse, which South Lakes parents say diversity
> is what makes South Lakes so terrific. More
> diversity will be a good thing for them.

Maybe they thinks its too much of a good thing.;-)

I would advise anyone who is truly interested to look into it for themselves at the IB website, and not necessarily go by the vague statements posted here, They've been proven wrong before. Look for the schools your kids would go to, and see for yourself.

McNair is the only viable way of reducing Westfield. If Floris is taken away McNair is an island. They have said no more islands. The only takers are the bordering schools South Lakes or Herndon. Herndon already has part of McNair (north of Toll Rd).
Since Centreville was left out of the study, they can't take any students from the south.
Loudon is west.
Chantilly is east and they're full.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair is the only viable way of reducing
> Westfield. If Floris is taken away McNair is an
> island. They have said no more islands. The only
> takers are the bordering schools South Lakes or
> Herndon. Herndon already has part of McNair (north
> of Toll Rd).
> Since Centreville was left out of the study, they
> can't take any students from the south.
> Loudon is west.
> Chantilly is east and they're full.

Word, may I ask where your children go to school?

Fox Mill is much closer to South Lakes than McNair, as is Crossfield. But everyone knows why Westfield parents would like to dump McNair - I don't even have to state it here, less I be accused of referring to anti-move parents as 'bad,' as another poster implied. There does not have to be just one shift. The purpose of the study is to get it right, not to create one 'bad' school surrounded by lots of 'good' ones.

I think you all underestimate the parents at South Lakes. I'd leave Tom out of the equation, since he continually posts bad facts and clearly should have pupil-placed his children out years ago.

We do have a voice and we intend to use it.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McNair is the only viable way of reducing
> Westfield. If Floris is taken away McNair is an
> island. They have said no more islands. The only
> takers are the bordering schools South Lakes or
> Herndon. Herndon already has part of McNair (north
> of Toll Rd).
> Since Centreville was left out of the study, they
> can't take any students from the south.
> Loudon is west.
> Chantilly is east and they're full.

One way it could happen is this: All of Navy goes to Oakton to replace Fox Mill which is almost certain to go to SL since Stu promised not to redistrict Aldrin & Armstrong in January 2003. Then Floris could go to Chantilly. Crossfields stays at Oakton & McNair goes to SL.

You may not.

Make no mistake McNair will be moved somewhere to solve the Westfield problem. The others you mention don't go to Westfield. The only border schools are South Lakes and Herndon. You cannot take Fox Mill and Crossfield (they're too big to take both anyway) and send McNair to Oakton, That's another island issue.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We do have a voice and we intend to use it.

For what? To get Realista back. To thank Stu for making the partition of Reston kids into two high schools permanent. To beg Crossfields not to treat SL like a poor relation wallflower? To prevent McNair's kids from a shorter bus ride? To sell IB?

For someone who claims to have been in a position of influence regarding SL since at least 1998, why didn't you do more to get rid of Realista faster?

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You may not.

Well, she did. You just chose not to answer.

> You cannot
> take Fox Mill and Crossfield (they're too big to
> take both anyway)

What are those numbers & where did you find them?

SLVerity has it exactly right: the purpose of the study and the redistricting is to get it right, and suggesting to slice, dice and leapfrog elementary feeders ain't right. Word knows or should know that, but likes to tweak us....

We should keep Tom, b/c he knows and defends vociferously the truth about the SL students and community, even if he has the dagger out for IB and BB (Butler) -- which I don't agree with.

I believe that there are a number of excellent new APs, teachers and coaches, fueling the demonstrable improvements in performance and pride at SLHS....and the model campus linkages between SLHS and Hughes are stronger with Aimee Monticchio at Hughes (from being an AP at SLHS). That's all good and people should take a look and make up their own minds. Mr. Butler welcomes anyone and everyone to do so.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We should keep Tom, b/c he knows and defends
> vociferously the truth about the SL students and
> community,

You are too kind.

> even if he has the dagger out for
> BB (Butler)

I had great hopes for BB but have been deeply disappoint with his promotions, his attitude toward BSR and his inability to reform the English Department which stubbornly refuses to teach anything but "Literature" to the exclusion of grammar, vocabulary and writing.

> I believe that there are a number of excellent new
> teachers and coaches

Not to pick a fight, but who do you have in mind? I'm looking for anything to avoid total despair about the future for SL.

APs = Assistant Principals, in this context. See, e.g., the CVs for Messrs. Goldfarb and Tyson, the new fellas. My kids say they are great (beyond the CV).

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> APs = Assistant Principals, in this context.
> See, e.g., the CVs for Messrs. Goldfarb and Tyson,
> the new fellas. My kids say they are great
> (beyond the CV).

I knew about them but haven't met them yet. However, I was asking about the new teachers and coaches.

Tom knows not what he talks about, as usual. In 1998 my children were in elementary school. I had nothing to do with South Lakes at the time. I never liked Reilly Rodrigues. I have worked for years to improve the SL Pyramid - including identifying problems and finding constructive ways to deal with them. I worked vociferously to keep the GT Center at Hughes, when it was going to be moved in entirety to Rachel Carson, at great detriment to our pyramid, even though my children were not even at Hughes yet. South Lakes has seen improvement under Bruce Butler. SAT scores up, SOL scores up, school spirit revived, pride for the school throughout the community revived. Too bad Tom suffers from BDS (Butler Derangement Syndrome) and IBDS (IB Derangement Syndrome).

BTW, High School English departments should not have to teach grammar, if it is done correctly in earlier years. Perhaps Tom should focus his laser-like complaints at the elementary and middle level.

It's interesting that my children received credit for IB with no problem whatsoever regarding timelines. My guess is that Tom's children did not receive IB credits bc they did not meet the criteria, not through any fault of IB.

I'd like to know what exactly Tom has done, besides complaining, to effect change. My guess would be nothing at all.

Saw your post after my last one.

I am not too kind. Sometimes you tick me off, but your heart is good, and you keep the ball rolling.

On teachers, we've been quite happy with both newer and established faces in SS/History, French, new Latin, greater focus on English writing, grammar, and vocab (based anecdotally on heightened frequency and volume of our students' complaints about the relevance thereof.....good sign, I think), and even math.

There is dead wood, too, but the overall energy is much better than in the Realista era. As examples, coaches in boys Lax, field hockey, volleyball, and -- as you noted -- swimming, are all energetic, very competent, and committed to playing well, building a team spirit, and enjoying the sport.

Heck, prospective parents should read the story about SLHS Field Hockey coach, Mary Caye Schirf (http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=88351&paper=71&cat=105, or talk with her about the school.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I worked vociferously to keep
> the GT Center at Hughes, when it was going to be
> moved in entirety to Rachel Carson, at great
> detriment to our pyramid, even though my children
> were not even at Hughes yet.

So you worked vociferously to keep the GT Center available and convenient for your kids. How wonderful.
>
> BTW, High School English departments should not
> have to teach grammar

Actually, not true. But that is the excuse the SL teachers give. Teaching grammar is hard and boring but absolutely necessary. Only in the failed "whole language" curriculum, the vestiges of which still linger in FCPS, is grammar not taught at the high school level. Because grammar is not taught in "whole language", kids are supposed to indirectly absorb it.

Most college freshman writing courses include grammar as part of the course of study.

Here's a little test. Ask a dozen randomly slected SL students to name the eight parts of speech and give examples of the proper use of each in a sentence.

> It's interesting that my children received credit
> for IB with no problem whatsoever regarding
> timelines. My guess is that Tom's children did
> not receive IB credits bc they did not meet the
> criteria, not through any fault of IB.

I thought I had already written that I had my kids not take IB. The reports of late IB test result reports come from parents at other FFX IB schools.

> I'd like to know what exactly Tom has done,
> besides complaining, to effect change. My guess
> would be nothing at all.

Besides helping to get rid of Realista and volunteering at innumberable events and functions, what else can any parent do, storm the School Board meeting?

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not too kind. Sometimes you tick me off, but
> your heart is good, and you keep the ball
> rolling.

Thank you again. I can aspire to no better state of being than having a good heart. Ticking you off is a good thing if it spurs you to action, even if it's in opposition to the choices I'd make. I think my friend, Erasmus, said "Two minds in opposition are more likely to find truth and wisdom than two in harmony."

> new Latin,

Who is this? Cave is still there and I like him. I've been worried that his infirmities could mean the end of Latin which I've used to remediate the lack of grammar and vocabulary in English.

> greater focus on English writing,
> grammar, and vocab (based anecdotally on
> heightened frequency and volume of our students'
> complaints about the relevance thereof.....good
> sign, I think),

Please God let this be true. I've been begging Bruce to make this happen.

> The overall energy is
> much better than in the Realista era.

While that is certainly true, I'm not sure that's saying much. Could it have gotten much worse?

We knew we were in trouble with Realista when she announced before the end of her first year that she wanted to terminate the All Night Grad Party which SL practically invented.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> So you worked vociferously to keep the GT Center
> available and convenient for your kids. How
> wonderful.

Once again, Tom shows his ignorance. My children were never in the GT program. Nevertheless, it would have hurt the school to lose that block of students and their involved parents. I'm sure Tom would have loved to kick them out though, another example of cutting off his nose to spite his face.


> Most college freshman writing courses include
> grammar as part of the course of study.

Most college freshman courses include grammar? I think not, unless once is taking remedial courses.
>
> Here's a little test. Ask a dozen randomly
> slected SL students to name the eight parts of
> speech and give examples of the proper use of each
> in a sentence.

Why don't we ask randomly selected students in all Fairfax schools, to be fair.
>

> I thought I had already written that I had my kids
> not take IB. The reports of late IB test result
> reports come from parents at other FFX IB
> schools.

Since Tom's children did not take IB, Tom really can't be considered an expert on the subject.
>

> Besides helping to get rid of Realista and
> volunteering at innumberable events and functions,
> what else can any parent do, storm the School
> Board meeting?


Innumerable events and functions? Define innumerable.

Again, what did Tom do to get rid of Reilly? As Tom has so often asked of other posters, please provide facts, dates, letters, etc. to back up those claims.

This thread is supposed to be about redistricting, not bashing South Lakes. By posting such negative and I might add, unconstructive comments about South Lakes, and refusing to acknowledge any good at the school, besides the student body, Tom has very much ill-served the South Lakes community. If I had considered being redistricted to SL and read this thread, I'd be running after reading the toxic comments from Tom.

Since Tom does seem to be a cut of his nose to spite his face person, perhaps that is his goal.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > So you worked vociferously to keep the GT
> Center
> > available and convenient for your kids. How
> > wonderful.
>
> Once again, Tom shows his ignorance. My children
> were never in the GT program. Nevertheless, it
> would have hurt the school to lose that block of
> students and their involved parents. I'm sure Tom
> would have loved to kick them out though, another
> example of cutting off his nose to spite his
> face.

So your kids couldn't get into the Hughes GT program and still got into Mr. Jefferson's country club. Now what does that say about UVA.

> > Most college freshman writing courses include
> > grammar as part of the course of study.
>
> Most college freshman courses include grammar? I
> think not, unless once is taking remedial
> courses.

Well that explains why those UVA grads I interview can't write very well.

> > Here's a little test. Ask a dozen randomly
> > slected SL students to name the eight parts of
> > speech and give examples of the proper use of
> each
> > in a sentence.
>
> Why don't we ask randomly selected students in all
> Fairfax schools, to be fair.

That fine and while we're at it ask your two UVa grads.


> > Besides helping to get rid of Realista and
> > volunteering at innumberable events and
> functions,
> > what else can any parent do, storm the School
> > Board meeting?

We noticed you didn't answer the question.

> Innumerable events and functions? Define
> innumerable.

Over ten years, way too many to count.

> Again, what did Tom do to get rid of Reilly? As
> Tom has so often asked of other posters, please
> provide facts, dates, letters, etc. to back up
> those claims.

Spoke/complained to Webb, Domenech and Gibson with detailed reports of each her offenses.


Did you tell Gibson that you opposed IB when Webb told you about it?

Please tell me where you work so I can make sure my kids never apply there. It's a wonder you even accept applications from UVa grads. You should just screen them out.

Just as I thought, spoke/complained but never did anything constructive.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is supposed to be about redistricting,
> not bashing South Lakes. By posting such negative
> and I might add, unconstructive comments about
> South Lakes, and refusing to acknowledge any good
> at the school, besides the student body, Tom has
> very much ill-served the South Lakes community.

As anyone who has read fairly read my postings would have already noticed, I praised several teachers, coaches and other personnel at SL. Panglossian obsequiousness does little for the credibility of any praise of SL.

> If I had considered being redistricted to SL and
> read this thread, I'd be running after reading the
> toxic comments from Tom.

and you'd be making a mistake

> Since Tom does seem to be a cut of his nose to
> spite his face person, perhaps that is his goal.

Well, mine is a little large, it could use some trimming. But since your angels are all out of SL, why do you persist in sticking yours into this thread?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please tell me where you work so I can make sure
> my kids never apply there.

You first.

> It's a wonder you even
> accept applications from UVa grads. You should
> just screen them out.

No, I actually read their lame writing samples first.
>
> Just as I thought, spoke/complained but never did
> anything constructive.

Like what exactly. Still haven't answered the question.

Is it because there isn't anything parents can do except comment, praise complain? Because we are basically helpless to change a bureaucracy so unwieldy and unresponsive that it took 7 years to get rid of that disaster.

To parents with an open mind about IB:

Many students at South Lakes and nationwide have been well-served by the IB program. It is a crying shame that some parents seem to believe that only GT students are qualified for excellent colleges. It is all about working hard and taking advantage of the excellent programs provided through Fairfax County. Any student who has the will to work hard will succeed, despite sometimes even having terrible principals and/or parents and teachers. Conversely, some students are doomed to fail even if they hail from highly regarded schools. It is a matter of personal choice. That is what this country is based on, not claiming helplessness in the face of bureaucracies and administrators, but actually taking responsibility for one's own actions and future.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
>But since your angels are all out of
> SL, why do you persist in sticking yours into this
> thread?

For one who is so critical of the writing samples of others, particularly UVa graduates, I am surprised that Tom can't differentiate between angels and angles.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To parents with an open mind about IB:
>
> Many students at South Lakes and nationwide have
> been well-served by the IB program. It is a
> crying shame that some parents seem to believe
> that only GT students are qualified for excellent
> colleges. It is all about working hard and taking
> advantage of the excellent programs provided
> through Fairfax County. Any student who has the
> will to work hard will succeed, despite sometimes
> even having terrible principals and/or parents and
> teachers. Conversely, some students are doomed to
> fail even if they hail from highly regarded
> schools. It is a matter of personal choice. That
> is what this country is based on, not claiming
> helplessness in the face of bureaucracies and
> administrators, but actually taking responsibility
> for one's own actions and future.

> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> claiming
> helplessness in the face of bureaucracies and
> > administrators, but actually taking
> responsibility
> > for one's own actions and future.

Swallowed that Ayn Rand thing whole, uh? Or is it Horatio Allger?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> For one who is so critical of the writing samples
> of others, particularly UVa graduates, I am
> surprised that Tom can't differentiate between
> angels and angles.

So you want us to infer that your angels are obtuse?

You're making it way too easy, while you're not answering our questions.

I can write. I just can't type. A JMU grad does that for me at my office.

More mirthfully later

Guess you can't proof, either.

Can someone please explain to me why students that go the IB route at South Lakes are less prepared for college than those that take AP at Oakton? Is there any evidence to back up these claims?

Thanks!

I am sure we can get you responses from current and graduated SLHS alums (who took IB courses and/or got the IB diploma).

Would that be helpful?

Rachel Carson Parent,

No, there is no evidence to back up this claim. Please don't take Thomas' posts as evidence. We find holes in his arguments all the time. Please read back a few pages, you will see that he rails against many things that I can't really discern why.

AP vs. IB, there are differences, but I would not be too upset about them. In the scheme of things, both AP and IB kids get good educations, get into college, get credit for some courses, and go from there. I think people are making too much of the distinction. That's my opinion. All you can do is investigate for yourself and your kids to see what you think. Perhaps contact an IB coordinator at a high school in fairfax county?

I think many people here want there to be a big difference, so they can use that as an argument why they shouldn't go to South Lakes.

if your high school is IB and you want AP, you can pupil place to another school.

conversely, if your school is AP and you want IB, you can pupil place to another school

one catch though, there has to be room for you at the other school

Hi SlVerity,
Can you post about what you have found out about IB, like did your kids get credit for courses and at what institutions?

Anybody else's direct experience (not what you heard about your neighbor's friend's cousin, etc)?

Also, I looked at AP's site. They say that AP credit is given at "most" colleges, so unlike what Thomas says, it might not be as universal as all that.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am sure we can get you responses from current
> and graduated SLHS alums (who took IB courses
> and/or got the IB diploma).
>
> Would that be helpful?

I am not sure that is what I am looking for. I have read lots of opinions in this forum, but I am trying to find more facts. I just checked the William and Mary, Virginia Tech, and UVA web sites and found that they all accept IB advanced level for credit given a sufficient test score. Does anyone know the percentage of AP students who get 3 or better on AP tests at Oakton compared to the number of Higher Level IB students who get 4 or better on the IB higher level tests?

Thanks!

Concerned Rachel Carson Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can someone please explain to me why students that
> go the IB route at South Lakes are less prepared
> for college than those that take AP at Oakton? Is
> there any evidence to back up these claims?
>
> Thanks!

I don't think any studies had been published in a peer reviewed journal to say one way or the other.

I haven't read anyone suggested that either one is better than the other at preparing children for college.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi SlVerity,
> Can you post about what you have found out about
> IB, like did your kids get credit for courses and
> at what institutions?
>
> Anybody else's direct experience (not what you
> heard about your neighbor's friend's cousin,
> etc)?
>
> Also, I looked at AP's site. They say that AP
> credit is given at "most" colleges, so unlike what
> Thomas says, it might not be as universal as all
> that.

I have found no college in the U.S. that doesn't give advanced placement credit for a high score on the AP test. If you find one let us all know and whether it gives credit for IB test instead.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guess you can't proof, either.

The JMU grad takes care of that too, if anything gets by grammaticheck.

When can we expect the answers to the questions posed which you continue to ignore?

Or are you afraid to answer the questions?

BTW I forgot to mention the thousands of dollars I gave or raised for the various boosters clubs, runnning an all night grad party, helping to build the concession stand and press box for the varsity softball ball field entirely with volunteer labor and donated materials, helping to get hundreds of thousands of dollars allocated to SL women's athletic facilities and helping to defend Linda Jones against the scurrilous and false accusations of Virginia and Candy Jones and her family. All of that before you angels even got to SL. Match that.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ...Perhaps contact an IB coordinator
> at a high school in fairfax county?...

There's one difference - IB schools have an extra administrator/ coordinator level staff person on the payroll. It's a program from an outside vendor and costs over 8,000 per year as an enrolled HS along with exam fees, course fees, etc. We also have paid for training junkets /flights/hotels for teachers and administrators [years ago heard Gibson also went on a trip after IB went in] - not as simple as a class in NOVA at GMU or UVA. If FCPS wants to go IB then it should fire all it's curriculum/instructional services people and just pay IB which we do anyway at any school with the program. Students can still pay to take AP tests. If we have some kids taking IB exams and AP for the same course we should not pay for both. Based on the number of diploma candidates at any given school how many kids are in the higher level classes?
as per the IB website 20% of the actual diploma candidates do not get the diploma.
ib is also moving into more vocational ed stuff which I think FCPS might be purchasing [dev was on website and FCPS was talking about CTE at the mst recent school board meeting]

Concerned Rachel Carson Parent why are you so concerned about OAKTON??

Here is W and M site for AP/IB

http://www.wm.edu/admission/?id=3750

And here is VTech's:

http://www.registrar.vt.edu/registration/tests_for_credit.php

Curious George Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Concerned Rachel Carson Parent why are you so
> concerned about OAKTON??


I want to understand why so many people on this forum, and in my community, are against the IB program at South Lakes. South Lakes is about twice as close as Oakton to where I live so it would be more convenient for my child to go there. I want to know, however, whether the IB program at South Lakes is an acceptable subsitute (or even bettter!) than AP at Oakton. I can't find any evidence to prove it either way, although there does seem to be a lot of opinions on the matter.

I am concerned about Oakton for the following reasons:

1) The AP pass rate at Oakton is 73% vs. 90% IB pass rate at South Lakes. I am still trying to find out if this is comparing apples to oranges because the South Lakes results might not be just for the IB high levels.
2) The distance from my house to Oakton (especially considering I66), doubles the chance of an automobile accident injuring my child. It also means my child will be spending time commuting that would be better spent in school, home, or outside activities.
3) Oakton is over-populated.

Concered Rachel Carson Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Curious George Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Concerned Rachel Carson Parent why are you so
> > concerned about OAKTON??
>
>
> I want to understand why so many people on this
> forum, and in my community, are against the IB
> program at South Lakes. South Lakes is about
> twice as close as Oakton to where I live so it
> would be more convenient for my child to go there.
> I want to know, however, whether the IB program
> at South Lakes is an acceptable subsitute (or even
> bettter!) than AP at Oakton. I can't find any
> evidence to prove it either way, although there
> does seem to be a lot of opinions on the matter.
>
>
> I am concerned about Oakton for the following
> reasons:
>
> 1) The AP pass rate at Oakton is 73% vs. 90% IB
> pass rate at South Lakes. I am still trying to
> find out if this is comparing apples to oranges
> because the South Lakes results might not be just
> for the IB high levels.
> 2) The distance from my house to Oakton
> (especially considering I66), doubles the chance
> of an automobile accident injuring my child. It
> also means my child will be spending time
> commuting that would be better spent in school,
> home, or outside activities.
> 3) Oakton is over-populated.

response to 3 - Oakton is over crowded by 51 this year if every student is in class. by 2011 underpopulated by 250 according to FCPS web site

response to 2 - not a true fact, there is a stat that says X % of auto accidents happen within 3 miles of your residence. We could argue this until the redskins win the superbowl. Accidents happen any where at anytime not a valid point.

responce to 1 - the pass rate at Oakton you qouted is incorrect, please check with Dr. Banbury for the accurate number I believe it was 84% which is well above the national average. As far as comparing the two programs please check with the Mr. Moore/Mr. Priester/ Mr Hopkins etc... at Oakton the can give the facts on it but I think you will be pleasantly surprised to find out what you here regarding the two.

Hi Concerned RC Parent,
Where are you getting these statistics? I am curious because I didn't know these existed.

Curious George--you are right, we could argue the accident rate. On the assumption of linear probability, most of the accidents are going to be closer to your house, because more of your miles are driven close to your house (with your house as a starting point).

But there is a rate of accidents/mile driven. If you drive more miles, you are obviously more likely to have an accident.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2007 08:45PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Curious George Wrote:
>
> response to 3 - Oakton is over crowded by 51 this
> year if every student is in class. by 2011
> underpopulated by 250 according to FCPS web site
>
> response to 2 - not a true fact, there is a stat
> that says X % of auto accidents happen within 3
> miles of your residence. We could argue this
> until the redskins win the superbowl. Accidents
> happen any where at anytime not a valid point.
>
> responce to 1 - the pass rate at Oakton you qouted
> is incorrect, please check with Dr. Banbury for
> the accurate number I believe it was 84% which is
> well above the national average. As far as
> comparing the two programs please check with the
> Mr. Moore/Mr. Priester/ Mr Hopkins etc... at
> Oakton the can give the facts on it but I think
> you will be pleasantly surprised to find out what
> you here regarding the two.

The pass rates are from the school profiles on the FCPS web site
http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:17:3045397937841566::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:320
If they are inaccurate then I hope someone will fix the site.

Obviously the more miles you drive in a year the more likely you are to get in an accident. That is why insurance companies charge you more when you have higher yearly milage. There is still the point that I would rather have my child doing other activities than commuting.

Thanks for the point on the over-enrollment at Oakton. If I can corroborate those numbers I will factor that into my position at the school board hearings.

Hello everyone..

I am a current student at South Lakes and it just disheartens me to hear all the negative things that are being said about my school. I understand both sides of this situation but if you guys can just look at it from a South Lakes student's perspective..honestly, it feels embarassing that parents don't want their kids around us.

South Lakes provide the same resources as other schools. Your child can get the same education at South Lakes, as in any other school. It all depends on making OWN effort to achieve.

I really wish everyone would just give us a chance because it seems like everyone has already made up their minds about South Lakes with no intent of changing their opinions. Statistics don't mean everything so please come visit the school or have your child shadow for a day and then, at least you have a conclusive opinion.

And this post is going to be pointless..because no matter what we say, it goes in one ear and out the other and the debate will just repeat with the same statistics said over and over again..

Moving Fox Mill students to South Lakes does nothing to help over crowding at Westfield. Oakton isn't overcrowded, there is no need to take students from there. Isn't the goal to increase students at South Lakes and decrease students at Westfield?

The only thing that makes sense is to move Floris and McNair to South Lakes. Stu Gibson says that scores don't matter, and diversity is very important, so that should work. It will also meet with the least resistance and it won't bother any other school board member's district. It reduces enrollment at Wesfield and increases enrollment at South Lakes. It's a win-win for everyone.

If IB is as good as AP, why doesn't TJ have it? And why didn't Langley, Oakton, Madison, McLean, and Woodson want it? Woodson parents fought for TWO years to get rid of IB and go back to AP. Schools with the most educated parents, with the the highest percentages of students attending college, did NOT want IB. ALL of the top high schools chose AP over IB. That might tell you something. When half of the top high schools demand IB, or even one or two of them, I'd say the two programs are equal. Until then, I'd go with AP.

A far higher percentage of students participate in AP than in IB. At South Lakes only 10% of the students passed the IB exam with a 4 or higher. (It goes up to 7 so a 4 is not a great score, most good colleges require a 5 for credit.) Only 140 students, 10%, will have a chance at ANY college credits. As opposed to 475 students at Oakton who got a 3 or better (5 is the top score) on an AP exam. ALL of those students have a chance at getting at least 3 hours of college credit at any college they choose.

Since so many more students took AP tests, one would expect the pass percentage to be lower.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moving Fox Mill students to South Lakes does
> nothing to help over crowding at Westfield.
> Oakton isn't overcrowded, there is no need to take
> students from there. Isn't the goal to increase
> students at South Lakes and decrease students at
> Westfield?
>
> The only thing that makes sense is to move Floris
> and McNair to South Lakes. Stu Gibson says that
> scores don't matter, and diversity is very
> important, so that should work. It will also meet
> with the least resistance and it won't bother any
> other school board member's district. It reduces
> enrollment at Wesfield and increases enrollment at
> South Lakes. It's a win-win for everyone.

Floris and McNair are not contiguous with SL. School Board wants to eliminate attendance islands. Floris is far from SL. Its down to Fox Mill and either Crossfield or McNair. I'm betting on McNair. All of Navy moves from Chantilly to Oakton to replace Fox Mill and Floris replaces Navy at Chantilly.

More Later



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2007 01:59AM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If IB is as good as AP, why doesn't TJ have it?
> And why didn't Langley, Oakton, Madison, McLean,
> and Woodson want it? Woodson parents fought for
> TWO years to get rid of IB and go back to AP.
> Schools with the most educated parents, with the
> the highest percentages of students attending
> college, did NOT want IB. ALL of the top high
> schools chose AP over IB. That might tell you
> something. When half of the top high schools
> demand IB, or even one or two of them, I'd say the
> two programs are equal. Until then, I'd go with
> AP.

SlVerify says SL wasn't given a choice. Webb imposed it. Only 15-20% participate
in IB in any way. If the SL parents were polled, we would probably chose to go back to AP.

Wouldn't it be nice if the School Board took that poll of the redistricted community and followed it's recommendation. I know I'm dreaming.

More Later



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2007 01:58AM by Thomas More.

Concerned RC Parent,
When capacities of the schools are calculated, it looks to me like trailers are included. If trailers were taken out of the capacity numbers, those schools that look about right would be overenrolled.

Whether trailers should be included is a matter of debate. They are clearly not optimal--require students to go outside in the winter, they don't make up for cafeteria or other "core" space, and they are hot in summer, cold in winter. My daughter is always complaining about the temperature. This clearly can't be good for learning.

South Lakes will have no trailers.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Concerned RC Parent,
> When capacities of the schools are calculated, it
> looks to me like trailers are included. If
> trailers were taken out of the capacity numbers,
> those schools that look about right would be
> overenrolled.
>
> Whether trailers should be included is a matter of
> debate. They are clearly not optimal--require
> students to go outside in the winter, they don't
> make up for cafeteria or other "core" space, and
> they are hot in summer, cold in winter. My
> daughter is always complaining about the
> temperature. This clearly can't be good for
> learning.
>
> South Lakes will have no trailers.

Please help us understand how you reached this conclusion which will be an important piece of information at the mtgs.

Thanks for the hard work.

More Later

Gina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello everyone..
>
> I am a current student at South Lakes and it just
> disheartens me to hear all the negative things
> that are being said about my school. I understand
> both sides of this situation but if you guys can
> just look at it from a South Lakes student's
> perspective..honestly, it feels embarassing that
> parents don't want their kids around us.
>
> South Lakes provide the same resources as other
> schools. Your child can get the same education at
> South Lakes, as in any other school. It all
> depends on making OWN effort to achieve.
>
> I really wish everyone would just give us a chance
> because it seems like everyone has already made up
> their minds about South Lakes with no intent of
> changing their opinions. Statistics don't mean
> everything so please come visit the school or have
> your child shadow for a day and then, at least you
> have a conclusive opinion.
>
> And this post is going to be pointless..because no
> matter what we say, it goes in one ear and out the
> other and the debate will just repeat with the
> same statistics said over and over again..


I DO have an open mind. That is why I am trying to get real information to understand the pros and cons of my area being redistricted from Oakton to South Lakes. Neen said:

"A far higher percentage of students participate in AP than in IB. At South Lakes only 10% of the students passed the IB exam with a 4 or higher. (It goes up to 7 so a 4 is not a great score, most good colleges require a 5 for credit.) Only 140 students, 10%, will have a chance at ANY college credits. As opposed to 475 students at Oakton who got a 3 or better (5 is the top score) on an AP exam. ALL of those students have a chance at getting at least 3 hours of college credit at any college they choose."

Frankly, I don't care what percentage of the school takes IB or AP and passes, and the fact that there are lower performing students at South Lakes in non-IB classes doesn't bother me. My child is bright and will be in an IB or AP program. Based upon Nene's observation that you really need a 5 on the IB tests to count for credit, I will amend my question as follows: What percentage of students at South Lakes in the IB program get a 5 or higher on their advanced levels, and what percentage of the students at Oakton in the AP program get a 3 or higher on their AP tests. In other words, how well are the upper end students taught at each school.

TM:

I beg to differ with your assertions: "Only 15-20% participate
in IB in any way [and} If the SL parents were polled, we would probably chose to go back to AP."

I will try to get actual figures asap, but I believe that more than 50% of SLHS kids (at each class level -- 9-12) are in IB or pre-IB courses now.

I also dispute your statement that "we" (SLHS parents) would choose to go back to AP. I have heard from a number of Hughes and SLHS parents who are pleased and excited, inter alia, by the rising performance measures (e.g., SAT scores, IB advanced scores, and Diploma candidates) that coincide with the implementation of IB at SLHS. So I don't think you are correct on this, either.

AP is a fine program, but I have seen (with my kids) the IB program as quite effective in developing critical thinking skills and writing abilities. So to "go back" to AP -- and dump IB -- makes no sense to me.

Hi Concerned Rachel Carson Parent:

You may have gotten this information but the Post's Ed writer, Jay Mathews, has been writing and facilitating conversation on this (AB or IB) topic, and wrote on 10/9/07 about it most recently. In that piece, he noted a webchat discussion where people wrote in their experiences specifically on the college credit issue.

Apologies for not giving you a live link, but here is what I copied in the URL page, if that helps.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/community/groups/index.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aa70e3396-6663-4a8d-ba19-e44939d3c44fForum%3a5093b309-eb0a-47e2-b777-ea68b9dd478eDiscussion%3ab75543d9-7206-4ad7-94a1-5918de85d565

The IB, AP issue will provide an exit door to those not happy with their new school assignment. Those unhappy will pupil place... providing there is room.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TM:
>
> I beg to differ with your assertions: "Only 15-20%
> participate
> in IB in any way [and} If the SL parents were
> polled, we would probably chose to go back to
> AP."
>
> I will try to get actual figures asap, but I
> believe that more than 50% of SLHS kids (at each
> class level -- 9-12) are in IB or pre-IB courses
> now.
>
> I also dispute your statement that "we" (SLHS
> parents) would choose to go back to AP. I have
> heard from a number of Hughes and SLHS parents who
> are pleased and excited, inter alia, by the rising
> performance measures (e.g., SAT scores, IB
> advanced scores, and Diploma candidates) that
> coincide with the implementation of IB at SLHS.
> So I don't think you are correct on this, either.
>
> AP is a fine program, but I have seen (with my
> kids) the IB program as quite effective in
> developing critical thinking skills and writing
> abilities. So to "go back" to AP -- and dump IB --
> makes no sense to me.

Counting the 9 & 10 graders taking pre-IB classes artificially inflates the participation rates since almost all kids at SL are assigned to pre-IB classes in 9th and 10th and there is no pre-AP parallel in AP schools.

The 15-20% is based on the percentage taking the IB exam in a subject.

More Later

Please, not to blame anyone, but

anyone posting stats such as 15% or 50% taking IB, please post your source (along with a date--anything older than a year may not be valid anymore) and preferably, a link. There is too much hearsay on this board and posting things like this clouds the issue and misinforms.

It's fine to post experiences, but don't make it sound official unless you have a good source.

Does everyone agree with this?

Thomas,
I have a map from the CIP site that has capacity numbers along with number of trailers for each school. This leads me to believe that trailer capacity is included in the capacity numbers. I asked this question of Stu at the SL PTA meeting and did not get a meaningful answer, but the way it is presented on the map makes me think so. I'll try to find the link--can't quite remember where I found it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2007 11:53AM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> please post your source (along with a
> date--anything older than a year may not be valid
> anymore) and preferably, a link.

The 15-20% number came from the graduation program for the class of '06. Don't know if its' on line.

> Thomas,
> I have a map from the CIP site that has capacity
> numbers along with number of trailers for each
> school. This leads me to believe that trailer
> capacity is included in the capacity numbers. I
> asked this question of Stu at the SL PTA meeting
> and did not get a meaningful answer, but the way
> it is presented on the map makes me think so.
> I'll try to find the link--can't quite remember
> where I found it.

Look forward to seeing it but don't want to impose on you too much.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2007 12:43PM by Thomas More.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the rising
> performance measures (e.g., SAT scores, IB
> advanced scores, and Diploma candidates) that
> coincide with the implementation of IB at SLHS.

Coincidence is not proof of causation.

SL's SATs were third in FFX in 2001 and fell from there until this year which coincides with the implementation of IB and, though I'm opposed to IB, I would not argue that this was the product of either IB or the disfunctional staff that Realista brought in.

I have been working on admissions for a top 50 national university for 30 years. It is widely understood in those circles that the permutations in aggregate SAT scores by schools correlates most closely to socio-economic variations in the student body from year to year, far more than anything the school does. [The BHE report is not forgotten]

It's this correlation that has caused many colleges to drop or devalue the SAT in the admissions process. It was in response to this problem that the College Board added the written essay three years ago. Because of the short track record on this essay, I know of no schools which have announced they are using this score in their admissions process and do know of several that have announced that they will not.

There was a series of articles on this issue in Atlantic Monthly within the last few years. It covered the history of the development and evolution of the SAT and was very informative.

The rise in the IB scores and number of diploma candidates should have happened simply through familiarity with the IB program by the teachers, students and staff. An example, as late as 2002, rising 8th graders were not advised that they had to take 5 yrs of one foreign language to be eligible for the diploma. Thus, prior to that date, kids were disqualified from the diploma before they even got to SL.

More Later



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2007 04:11PM by Thomas More.

Thomas,
I couldn't find the site with the map of high schools and utilization with trailers, but I did find something more definitive here

http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/westcoboundary/faq.htm

Quote " It should be noted that those schools which are close to capacity continue to operate with numerous classroom trailers ranging from 18 trailers at Westfield High School to 3 trailers at Madison."

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> I couldn't find the site with the map of high
> schools and utilization with trailers, but I did
> find something more definitive here
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/westcoboundary/fa
> q.htm
>
> Quote " It should be noted that those schools
> which are close to capacity continue to operate
> with numerous classroom trailers ranging from 18
> trailers at Westfield High School to 3 trailers at
> Madison."

Thanks

I looked at the link and it led me to the FAQs on the Boundary Study. Was there a question or other heading I should be looking at?

I see why you pasted the quote but its somewhat ambiguous on whether trailers count toward capacity.

thanks again for all of the digging for info.

More Later

Thomas,

I thought the quote sounded pretty definitive. If trailers aren't counted, then why would Westfield need 18 if they are only just over capacity?

Thomas, the quote is from one of the FAQs on that site. This site does address the many points brought up here, such as why not Langley, etc. FWIW.

I too think it would be helpful if everyone would stop posting stats without backup, particularly since so many bad ones have been offered.

Gina, thank you for your very well-written comments. You do South Lakes proud.

We should be proposing that the school board approve allowing AP courses at SL that would fill in any gaps in the IB program in conjunction with the redistricting. Since that seems to be the primary reason why most on this site say they don't want to move to SL, that would solve the problem. If there are other reasons, I don't think they will have as much sway as the lack of AP.

SLPP - My children did receive IB credits at the University of VA for some courses. I know that the information is available through the IB coordinator at the school, and that the PTSA is currently compiling a fact sheet that I will post as soon as it is available.

In my opinion, high school is not about racking up college credits, but about preparing for college. My children tell me that they feel very well-prepared, particular when it comes to writing and critical thinking. I really can't ask for more than that.

In my experience, which is different from some posters, it was not the case that a majority of 9th and 10th graders were recommended for pre-IB courses. However, if 50% of students are participating in pre-IB now, then that is certainly a good indicator that they will continue with IB classes in their junior and senior years. It is a fact that the number of IB Diploma candidates has grown dramatically in the last two years. The numbers are roughly as follows:

2005 - 32 candidates
2006 - 27 candidates
2007 - 60+ candidates
2008 - 60+ candidates

I think those numbers bode well for the program. They early kinks related to language requirements, etc., have been worked out now for at least two years. Remember, not everyone is cut out to get the diploma, and one can even do quite well without it. A 2007 student is an Echols Scholar at UVa and was accepted into that prestigious program despite not being a diploma candidate.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If IB is as good as AP, why doesn't TJ have it?
> And why didn't Langley, Oakton, Madison, McLean,
> and Woodson want it? Woodson parents fought for
> TWO years to get rid of IB and go back to AP.
> Schools with the most educated parents, with the
> the highest percentages of students attending
> college, did NOT want IB. ALL of the top high
> schools chose AP over IB. That might tell you
> something. When half of the top high schools
> demand IB, or even one or two of them, I'd say the
> two programs are equal. Until then, I'd go with
> AP.


Neen, the county chose to implement IB at only one high school in the western part of the county (it was a budgetary consideration). Some of the schools you mention did lobby to have it considered, but the decision had already been made by the Area III Supervisor Loretta Webb, to implement it at South Lakes.

With regards to Woodson, a small group of parents launched a campaign to rid the school of IB. They were very organized and vocal and blitzed every meeting with literature (not all of it accurate). They were successful in getting rid of the program, but not everyone at Woodson was happy about it. Incidentally, they passed along their boxes of literature to two women who lobbied hard against IB at SL, but they were not successful in their efforts, primarily because much of what they put out was inaccurate and easily refuted.

George Mason High School in the City of Falls Church has the IB program, and it is consistently ranked as one of the top schools in Northern Virginia with regards to both SAT scores and Jay Mathew's challenge index.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We should be proposing that the school board
> approve allowing AP courses at SL that would fill
> in any gaps in the IB program in conjunction with
> the redistricting. Since that seems to be the
> primary reason why most on this site say they
> don't want to move to SL, that would solve the
> problem. If there are other reasons, I don't
> think they will have as much sway as the lack of
> AP.

Agreed. Providing lots of AP courses at SL would make scores of the families being redistricted, and many of the families already at SL, happy.

> However, if 50% of students are
> participating in pre-IB now, then that is
> certainly a good indicator that they will continue
> with IB classes in their junior and senior years.

Guidance counselors are making the pre-IB v. non-pre-IB course assignments. Those course assignments haven't change much over the last seven years. Hard to see whats going to increase the IB participation rates in the future.

> 2008 - 60+ candidates

So less than 5% of the 1400 kids at SL are pursuing the IB diploma. That would be lower than the numbers previously posted.

And yet a far higher proportion of SL grads (>50%) go on to 4 yr colleges, many without ever taking an IB exam on any subject.

What is this very expensive program doing for the majority of SL grads who are getting ready for college and aren't pursuing an IB diploma.

More Later

You can take IB classes without pursuing the diploma. Fifty percent of students are taking IB classes without pursuing the diploma. The diploma is not intended for every student, just as the AP diploma is only intended for a small percentage of students in AP schools.

As an aside, it's not fair to use the entire population of SL students because SL has around 250 students in its mentally handicapped program, which incidentally pulls students from Oakton and other surrounding schools. I think we can agree that they would not be taking IB or AP classes.

According to the school, participation rates in IB have increased dramatically over the last two years. Now that Amy Montecchio, formerly an AP at SL, is at Hughes, that will certainly continue.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As an aside, it's not fair to use the entire
> population of SL students because SL has around
> 250 students in its mentally handicapped program,
> which incidentally pulls students from Oakton and
> other surrounding schools. I think we can agree
> that they would not be taking IB or AP classes.

Asst. Principal for Special Ed. Antobelli says its 150.

But even using the 250 its still only 5% of non-mr enrollment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2007 08:57PM by Thomas More.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fifty percent of students are taking IB
> classes.

Does that include pre-IB classes? What's the source of this information?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to the school, participation rates in IB
> have increased dramatically over the last two
> years.

Which means what in terms of actual percentages or raw numbers of kids taking courses for which an IB exam is given at the end of the year?

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now that Amy Montecchio, formerly an AP at
> SL, is at Hughes, that will certainly continue.

Unless the number of foreign language teachers and alegebra teachers at Hughes is going to increase, IB participation numbers won't change.

Since the total number of teachers at a school is fixed by enrollment, increasing foreign language and alegebra teachers necessarily means reducing teachers for other subjects.

Which other courses at Hughes should be reduced to accomplish this?

there are some teachers that prefer teaching in trailers, for this reason, Westfield has kept some of their trailers, even though they don't need all of them

>
> Floris and McNair are not contiguous with SL.
> School Board wants to eliminate attendance
> islands. Floris is far from SL. Its down to Fox
> Mill and either Crossfield or McNair. I'm betting
> on McNair. All of Navy moves from Chantilly to
> Oakton to replace Fox Mill and Floris replaces
> Navy at Chantilly.



If the thought is to shift kids from Westfield to Chantilly to fill a dominoed void of kids going to Oakton, there are other Westfield communities that are a lot closer to Chantilly than Floris.

Neen --

Where do you get the "At South Lakes only 10% of the students passed the IB exam with a 4 or higher"? That is like 70% too low.

Was this mistake willful, or just reckless?

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the thought is to shift kids from Westfield to
> Chantilly to fill a dominoed void of kids going to
> Oakton, there are other Westfield communities that
> are a lot closer to Chantilly than Floris.

Since Floris abuts the Chantilly attendance area, it being immediately west of the Oak Hill and Lees Corner Elementary attendance areas, which other elementary schools do you have in mind?

Thomas More, dude:

While the beautiful Sunday rolled by, you were prolix in directing your animus toward IB. Let's discuss.

First, you said ""Only 15-20% participate in IB in any way", and then announced that "in any way" did not include pre-IB or IBMYP classes. Hmmm....well, ok. You make the rules, I guess.

But are you including only IB Diploma candidates when defining those "who participate in any way"? Because you are still quite wrong in your assertion, even with the clarified, refined definition.

In the FCPS figures for SLHS:

http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:17:2655071693884690::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID:320

These numbers show for the 2005-06 year -- you noted the 06 Graduation program as your source for the 15-20% participation figure at one point today - there were:

698 11th and 12th graders (IB-eligible; not including pre-IB or IBMYP).
. Of those 698 students, 292 (41%) participated in IB.
. Of those 292, at least 183 (62%) took an IB exam.
. Of those 183, at least 140 (76%) received a 4 or greater score.


Second, you said that " less than 5% of the 1400 kids at SL are pursuing the IB diploma. That would be lower than the numbers previously posted."

http://www.fcps.edu/SouthLakesHS/ib_program/results_history.htm

In doing so, you are limiting the number of "kids at SL pursuing the IB diploma" to a single class year, e.g., 31 in 05 or 26 in 06.

But in fact, the number of kids pursuing the IB diploma includes kids from at least three years (I think, but am not certain, that students state the intent to 'pursue' the IB diploma in Sophomore year, meaning that one needs to count sophomores, juniors and seniors when determining the number "pursuing the IB diploma".) If they can declare in Freshman year, then the number would be greater still.

As SLVerity notes, participation rates in IB have increased dramatically over the last two years. But even without including any increased figures, there have been significantly more than "less than 5% of kids pursuing the IB diploma" these past several years.

Moreover, in highlighting the comparatively small % of IB Diploma candidates (when compared to kids who participate "in any way", e.g. by taking at least one class), you seem to be deliberately trying to obscure a legimate point of comparison of IB and AP: like AP, students can take one or more IB classes for extra GPA and possibly college credit. They are not compelled to pursue the Diploma if they so choose.

It is late, and I am tired. So I'll halt. But you are wrong on many specifics in your crusade against IB.

More -- I am quite sure -- later.

Let's not forget we cannot move Floris anywhere without making McNair an Island. The only schools that border McNair are South Lakes and Herndon. Any takers?

You need to look at a map. Read the FAQ. McNair will be dealt to reduce Westfield.

If South Lakes doesn't want it, you should be looking to take Aldrin - and Herndon gets McNair. The Herndon people are way ahead of the game. Why do you think they want to keep everything in tact.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's not forget we cannot move Floris anywhere
> without making McNair an Island. The only schools
> that border McNair are South Lakes and Herndon.
> Any takers?
>
> You need to look at a map. Read the FAQ. McNair
> will be dealt to reduce Westfield.

We are looking at the map. Gibson promised Armstong and Aldrin that they would not be redistricted in 2003. Meaning Fox Mill must go to SL and leaving the only question Crossfields of McNair to SL. If Crossfields is too large as previously posted, then it's definitely McNair, though I'm still waiting to see the Crossfields numbers.

> If South Lakes doesn't want it, you should be
> looking to take Aldrin - and Herndon gets McNair.
> The Herndon people are way ahead of the game. Why
> do you think they want to keep everything in tact.

Exactly. The Herndon PTA has been agressive, inducing Gibson to promise no redistricting in 2003, while the SL PTA has trusted Gibson, who is about to throw SL under the bus and give it McNair.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2007 12:13AM by Thomas More.

SLHS Padre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't want to disappoint you, my friend.

> While the beautiful Sunday rolled by, you were
> prolix in directing your animus toward IB. Let's
> discuss.

To relief your concern for my well beaing, please be advised, I got outside, went for a ride, looked at potential Xmas decorations and watched the Washington NFL team get hammered.

> First, you said ""Only 15-20% participate in IB in
> any way", and then announced that "in any way"
> did not include pre-IB or IBMYP classes.
> Hmmm....well, ok. You make the rules, I guess.

Just defining terms as one should in every syllogism. Since there is no parallel in the AP process to pre-IB and IBMYP, I chose to limit it to those taking standard and High Level (HL) IB courses. That may be too broad a definition since, as was earlier posted, some colleges only give advanced placement for HL courses. So are standard IB classes really the equivalent of AP courses. Apparently not in the view of several universities.

> In the FCPS figures for SLHS:
>
> 698 11th and 12th graders (IB-eligible; not
> including pre-IB or IBMYP).

FCPS doesn't give a total for that column but I add it up to be 718.

> Of those 698 students, 292 (41%) participated
> in IB.

If the number is 718, then the percentage is 40.6%. The FCPS counts kids taking both standard and higher level (HL) exams in the 292 number. [See earlier note.] And assuming the two classes are 50% of the student body, then 20% of the student body took an IB class, whether standard or HL.

> Of those 292, at least 183 (62%) took an IB
> exam.

Of the 718, 183 is 25% of the two Classes. Again assuming the two classes are 50% of the student body, then 12.7% of the student body took the exams for both standard and HL clasess.

> Of those 183, at least 140 (76%) received a 4
> or greater score.

Of the 718, 19% received a score of 4 or higher. If Neen's percentage is of the total student body, she's close.

I am comfortable with my 15-20% estimate based on the graduation program.

> In doing so, you are limiting the number of "kids
> at SL pursuing the IB diploma" to a single class
> year, e.g., 31 in 05 or 26 in 06.

We dont' know that because it wasn't clear whether the 60+ number from the earlier post was for the Class of '08 or for both the Class of '08 and '09. Perhaps the person who posted the 60+ can clarify that for all of us.

> participation rates in IB have
> increased dramatically over the last two years.

The link included in your posting connected to a chart showing the number taking the exams peaking in '03 at 239 and falling to 178 in '05 and recovering to only 201 in '06. Thats not an increase, it's a 16% DECLINE off the 2003 high. The trends going the wrong way for those supporting IB. But it's early and there's really not enough data points to reach a conclusion either way.

Mine is hardly a crusade. More an iconoclastic response to Panglossian obfuscation.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2007 12:59AM by Thomas More.

>>>critical thinking skills<<<<

Hahahaha.......FCPS LOVES that phrase, it's one of their favorites, but have NO clue how to actually teach it. In fact, they don't even know what it means. But it sounds good, to many.