Thomas, it was Stu Gibson who brought IB to South Lakes. Ask him. He LOVES the IB program. Truly. He thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Madison avoided it because parents (including his campaign manager) told him that he dare NOT put IB in Madison. Parents at Madison were noisy and they did not want IB.

I wouldn't want to turn all of SL into a magnet but what about a school within a school, like Montgomery Blair's very successful programs? Those programs have no problem attracting top students. Isn't that Stu's goal? To get more top students into South Lakes? Or are the rumors true that McNair will go to South Lakes and Aldrin and Armstrong won't because that would hurt Herndon high too much? Rumors, but they do make some sense. The only way Aldrin and Armstrong will leave Herndon is if Janie Straus has agreed. It appears that she has agreed. But who knows?

Isn't it interesting that the rich parts of the county got to decide if they wanted IB or not but the less affluent schools didn't have that choice. They had IB thrust upon them. Too bad those parents didn't have a choice.

In my ten years of association with TJ, I've never known of any student to attempt suicide. I can honestly say that I've never heard of it happening. Perhaps it has, but I would think that the word would have leaked out. (I did hear about a suicide attempt by a GT student at Madison, 3 or 4 years ago.) The kids I've known at TJ have loved the place. Like most people, they love being with their peers, doing something challenging and worthwhile. For most students at TJ the work load is certainly not excessive. They love the courses that are available to them. I wish every student in this county had a similar, appropriate, education. Sadly, too many do not have available to them what is needed and appropriate to their level.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Kids from
> herndon or chantilly can go to South Lakes,
> Oakton, or Fairfax.
>
> Basically all the HS boundarys need to shift east.
> A lot of the schools in the eastern part of the
> county are undercrowded. Give them all teh extra
> kids from the West.


FYI.... my kids are not "extra" kids. It's their high school. Our neighborhood has been part of Chantilly HS for 22 years. The attitude of "just move them all" is exactly what the school board is hoping for.

I've heard different things about IB than what Thomas said. One is that it is more challenging than AP, not less. It requires more critical thinking and writing skills than AP. Colleges think it is as good or better than AP (this from a parent who talked to a lot of college admissions people).

I really haven't heard any negatives from SL parents with kids in the IB program. They tend to think it prepares their kids for college very well and their kids are happy. All that said, I would prefer AP at SL too, but I probably wouldn't stress about it too much if it wasn't.

If McNair went to SL, I think that would throw off the whole "socioeconomic balance" boundary study criteria and not be good for SL. Westfield is able to absorb McNair well--its socioeconomic balance is fine, so it should stay there.

Stu,

Say goodbye now! We are busy canvassing your district and will show up to vote you out of office
Attachments:

Toodle Loo, Mr. Stu!

Does anyone know how many potential voters there are in Hunter Mill District and number of anticipated voters there will be this year? I'm sure the number will be bigger than past elections.

Don't know how to find this information.

I'm sick of Stu's mantra about federal and state funding. All are taxes out of my pocket and every state allocates funds based on an LEA 's ability to pay via a formula [school division or district]. Based on the size of FCPS and the remote or less local level of involvement there are mega amounts of money spent here on things like bussing/programs/facilities that would never get by voters in smaller LEA's.

It takes an incredible amount of time to fish out were the money goes. A lot of stuff on bond referendums would never get through if people knew the scope of the jobs or intentions of the projects. Here, you actually have to go to work sessions to even know what is going on. ie Modified Calendar - the kids actually get far less manadtory instruction time before SOL's between Labor Day and test dates. One reason that went in was high January absenteeism from Latinos - that month is their July so they vacation.

IB went in because Mount Vernon was a poorly run school in all respects - the admins even had or allowed a Wall of Shame where they put up photos of kids who dropped out or were MIA or expelled like a thing in a police station. IB is hugely expensive - a comparable AP course for single student might cost 75 while IB could be as high as 500. The program budget does not accurately reflect the expense.

I pay local/federal/state taxes so he should really look into where FCPS has spent it's local dollars: modified calendar, rebuilds instead of renovations, additions at the wrong buildings, bussing, foreign language immersion, IB instead of AP, duplicating costs on curriculum developement [paying staff then buying packages like IB and on a far lesser degree Core Knowledge], sped for some LD when they were really curriculum impaired, replacing new gym floors 3 years after installation, ripping out perfectly good libraries and moving them in renovations, making South Lakes cafeteria into 1 v 2 dining areas, elementary focus/magnet school money, building v boundary changes, Young Scholars [ no solid program definition or accountability], middle school GT centers, pump and haul for septic overload at Forestville, etc.

Taxpayer--just curious--why is IB so much more expensive than AP?

AP courses are college level courses, such as AP Calculus. At the end of the year, you take the AP exam and if you score high enough you get college credit for taking the class. You can just take one AP course or you can take many. Prior to taking AP courses, students usually take "honors" classes and are also usually a year ahead of the non-AP students.

To get college credit for IB you must complete the entire IB program and score high enough on the IB exam. You cannot get college credit for just one subject like IB English. It's all or none.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Colleges
> think it is as good or better than AP (this from a
> parent who talked to a lot of college admissions
> people).

Less than 100 colleges out of 1400 in the US give advance placement credit for IB courses. Check the IB website.

> Westfield is
> able to absorb McNair well--its socioeconomic
> balance is fine, so it should stay there.

McNair is the elementary school furthest from Westfield, thus the one most likely to be shifted to either Herndon or SL. Sending it to either makes the socio-economic balance at either worse.

Fun. fun, fun.

Well, what can we do to get AP really on the table? I read the notes from Crossfield PTA meeting with Stu from last spring, and he said that any AP discussion would have to involve South Lakes parents. I think SL parents would be open to it, so where is the follow up?

Would having AP at South Lakes make more parents from potential schools more willing to go there?

Arakelian would be willing to discuss AP at SL, unlike Stu so far.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2007 11:12AM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

McNair is not the closest school to South Lakes--it's much further than most of the other elementary schools under consideration.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldn't want to turn all of SL into a magnet
> but what about a school within a school, like
> Montgomery Blair's very successful programs?
> Those programs have no problem attracting top
> students.

First question, a magnet to teach what?

Second issue, a divided school, segregated by socio-economic background and divided community affiliation is not an attractive prospect.

Third, a magnet chool within a school is not likely to address low participation numbers since the magnet part of the school will likely have the same participation problems that TJ has. Even though SL is classified as a AAA school, it has an effective population (i.e., enrollment -MR magnet program participants) less than eight schools in AA. A magnet program of 500-700 kids won't address this and Paul Jensen, DSA for the entire County, refuses to move SL or any other school to AA even though George Mason, the high school of the city of Falls Church is AA now and would be a natural rival for SL and TJ. The rest of the AA schools would entail significant travel.

> Isn't that Stu's goal? To get more top
> students into South Lakes?

If you can believe him, his first goal is to increase enrollment numbers. His second goal is to achieve the first without making the socio-economic disparity of SL worse than it is now.

> Or are the rumors true
> that McNair will go to South Lakes and Aldrin and
> Armstrong won't because that would hurt Herndon
> high too much? Rumors, but they do make some
> sense. The only way Aldrin and Armstrong will
> leave Herndon is if Janie Straus has agreed. It
> appears that she has agreed. But who knows?

Because of Stu's alleged second goal I see his preference is not to have McNair at SL but he could fold to central staff and fellow school board memeber pressure just to get it over with. This is not a man of strong convictions.

Having already acknowledged that I am sick enough to actually watch school board meetings, can anyone tell us where Janie has been. She's missed a fair number of meetings. Is she even actively participating in this boundary issue?

> In my ten years of association with TJ, I've never
> known of any student to attempt suicide. I can
> honestly say that I've never heard of it
> happening.

How many parents at Oakton and Langley know about the drug problems at those schools? What gets out is only what the bureaucracy wants you to know and that never includes the bad news. If you make inquiries you'll here all about privacy of medical records, etc that prevents the school from disclosing that information. But they know, and they are worried.

> Sadly, too many do not have available
> to them what is needed and appropriate to their
> level.

True for the vast majority of kids. Any system with 165,000 students is going to ignore most of the participants and deal only with the outliers of every catgory.

BTW isn't this kind of exchange much more fun.

Hopefully More later.

capys Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To get college credit for IB you must complete the
> entire IB program and score high enough on the IB
> exam. You cannot get college credit for just one
> subject like IB English. It's all or none.

Not true. If you took the IB English test and scored well, you would get college credit regardless of whether you had taken any other IB classes. Same with math, science, music, art, history, etc.

That is the difference between being an IB Certificate student and an IB Diploma student. IB certificate students take the IB classes as upper level courses but are not involved in the entire program (no service hours, no extended essay, etc.) IB Diploma candidates have committed to the entire program. There are more than 30 kids taking higher level IB courses at SL, hundreds i assume, Only 30 (in a class, not the entire school) will have committed to be a diploma candidate and this number has gone up significantly every year.

Thomas,
What do you think of Stu's contention that central staff has no vested interest in pushing one plan over another--they are simply data automatons that have no biases and no office politics?

This doesn't seem credible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2007 11:52AM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

slgrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> capys Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > To get college credit for IB you must complete
> the
> > entire IB program and score high enough on the
> IB
> > exam. You cannot get college credit for just
> one
> > subject like IB English. It's all or none.
>
> Not true. If you took the IB English test and
> scored well, you would get college credit
> regardless of whether you had taken any other IB
> classes. Same with math, science, music, art,
> history, etc.

Yes, you are allowed to take only the IB test(s) you chose. You won't get the IB diploma but an advance diploma from FFX schools. (Big deal!) But if the score doesn't come back from Zurich until after you've registered for freshman college classes, which is exactly what's been happening lately, you don't get any advanced placement. So what good has IB done you.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> What do you think of Stu's contention that central
> staff has no vested interest in pushing one plan
> over another--they are simply data automatons that
> have no biases?
>
> This doesn't seem credible.

In the central staffs warped mind, the rest of us exist to pay them way too much money, to call them "Doctor", to cause the central staff as little inconvenience as possible, and otherwise to be ignored . The central staff is workinig these issues full time. The School Board members are part timers with day jobs. Central staff runs the show, it's the school board members who are the automatons.

That's true for most governments organizations of this size not just FFX.

> But if the score doesn't come back from Zurich
> until after you've registered for freshman college
> classes, which is exactly what's been happening
> lately, you don't get any advanced placement. So
> what good has IB done you.


you got into a good college and are prepared for the work. if you dont want to take those classes over then dont sign up for them first semester and by second semester your scores will be in. there are very few colleges that actually require you to take those core classes first semester of freshman year. they may advise that you do so and make it appear that it is mandatory but it rarely is.

read and weep about what FCPS is spending money on for Langley...Strauss is most likely hiding from Gibson's constituents who go to Herndon/South Lakes/Madison since she's getting her addition built despite people from all over this county paying for something that should come out of non-public money -- illegal dumping done at Langley with approval by the administration and athletic director. Those yoohoos are there in the summers - it's preparation for football season!!!!. Before the quote from the illegal dumping article here's a link to the lack of proper plumbing at many schools:

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=63841&paper=65&cat=112

Many School Bathrooms Lack Hot Water
More than 20,000 students are taught in school buildings with no hot or warm water in the bathrooms.
By Brian McNeill/The Connection
June 28, 2006


Hot or Not?

In the ceramic-tiled bathrooms at Marshall High School near Tysons Corner, the chrome faucets pour out a steady flow of icy water. Those students wishing to wash their hands with warm or hot water are out of luck.
Marshall is one of 32 aging Fairfax County schools that lack warm or hot water in all or most of the student bathrooms, according to Fairfax County Public School records.
Approximately 27,000 students are taught in the schools, comprising nearly 17 percent of the school system's total 163,500 student population. The school buildings, typically built in the 1960s or earlier, are located across Fairfax County in communities like Oakton, Great Falls, Falls Church, Annandale, Mount Vernon, Reston and Vienna...
===========================================================
http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?archive=true&article=80604&paper=68&cat=104


Illegal Dumping Frustrates Neighbors
Neighbors of Langley High School frustrated by lack of action on illegal dumping that occurred on school grounds last summer.
By Aranya Tomseth
August 8, 2007



When the father of a student approached the Langley High School athletic director in 2006 and offered to dump the dirt leftover from his latest construction project in the area just beyond the school’s new athletic field, it seemed like a win-win situation. Langley needed some extra batting cages, and the construction company owner needed to get rid of his extra dirt. But what initially appeared to be a mutually beneficial arrangement developed into a financial nightmare for the school.
“They cooked up a deal and they started rolling truckloads of dirt in and dumping it down, and they extended it clear out to the RPA [Resource Protection Area] down near the stream,” ... “Several people blew the whistle on that … they hadn’t gotten any permits from the county to do this, and the county came down on them very hard ...did not realize that the fill dirt was creating a steep slope next to Turkey Run stream until the following winter.
“There were about 200 dump trucks coming in and dumping the trash of developers, but it wasn’t really visible until the leaves were off the trees,”

The sense of entitlement of those about to be relocated to SLHS is amazing. Do you people read your own posts. Who the hell do you think you are?

slgrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you got into a good college and are prepared for
> the work.

The non-IB cirriculum does the same thing without all the homework.

> if you dont want to take those classes
> over then dont sign up for them first semester and
> by second semester your scores will be in. there
> are very few colleges that actually require you to
> take those core classes first semester of freshman
> year. they may advise that you do so and make it
> appear that it is mandatory but it rarely is.

Most schools will require freshman english freshman year without the AP/IB test result but, more importantly, you can't enroll in any upper level course until the IB result comes in. So you're wasting credits on basketweaving and Mom and Dad are wasting tuition money.

I will argue that the IB program better prepares students for college. Just from personal experience and seeing the differences in the classroom between kids who did the two programs.

Colleges require so many classes these days that you are absolutely capable of finding courses to take that have no prerequisite and are completely worth the money to take. Its your own fault if you cant find them and use the lack of test scores as an excuse.

Thomas More - let's be clear - yes, viewed in a myopic and abstract way, SLHS' problems are more about socio-economic problems than race. But the blunt truth is that the correlations between the problems - truancy, increased incidents of violence, a considerable achievement gap, degradation of a culture of learning - are so highly associated with race that school systems throughout the country adopt the opposite view of what you suggest. They act, and conduct themselves as if race is the relevant marker - which, given the statistical associations - makes a significant degree of sense - because elementary and middle school students are not going to have the kind of curriculum vitae or background information to support individual student assessments (such as with university admissions). So while you can assert in the abstract that the problems revolve around socio-economic factors, that is not the way school administrators conduct themselves - they desperately desire to achieve racial balance - because time and time again it works for them in keeping any one particular school from reaching a critical mass of implosion. If you ever doubt this notion, look at the billions (yes billions, not just hundreds of millions) spent in the Kansas City Missouri schools - under a federal judge's order - under the guise that if the billions were spent white students would attend the schools. They never did - because of the quality of students and the achievement gap never improved - one can ascribe this to some degree of racism - with likely a degree of truth - but at the same time, caring parents (including the caring black parents who were the plaintiffs in Brown v. Board of Education) simply don't like to send their children to schools with bad students - and no amount of money will persuade them otherwise. This is not to say that SLHS is rife with bad students, or that one cannot obtain an education there, but to be fair it does represent a different risk profile for those currently attending Oakton, Madison, etc.

To be fair in any analysis - SLHS, even if left to its own devices and boundaries would not implode to anywhere near the level of, let's say, the public high schools in DC. Those kinds of schools have even more complex problems, made worse by the fact that the school systems in those jurisdictions are often the employers of last resort for many in the community, and the quality of teachers and administrators (particularly administrators - whose ranks are filled with those that didn't succeed in teaching) is often poor, with no realistic means politically to fire them. And the socio-economic factors are even worse. But without racial balancing at SLHS there is a whiff of implosion in the air, and that is more than enough for those in charge of the school system to act proactively. As I said, I don't blame them.

Why do I make these points? What better time to make them than with the Parents United decision? It points to the fact that Brown, a seminal decision that should have marked the end, rather than the perpetuation of the achievement gap, is misunderstood, and it points to the fact that significant cultural factors - rarely talked about - contribute to the problem today every bit as much as racism.
The defendants in the Parents United case defended an extraordinary case - making it to the Supreme Court - maintaining that their schools needed to discriminate based on race so that they could eliminate the effects of discrimination based on race - when what they really meant was that if we don't discriminate based on race some of our schools will turn really bad and that would be a loss for the whole system. Too bad these schools couldn't be more direct and honest - political correctness kept them from doing so - but it predictably - with a conservative Supreme Court - led to a loss in the case. The FCPS could learn a lesson here - they won't - but if you ask people to make changes - be up front and tell them why, and ask them point blank to participate (and sacrifice if that is the word) for the good of the entire community.

And to the poster who claimed that those against transferring have a sense of entitlement - I would argue that of course they do - they by and large are paying at least 5/6 thousand a year in property taxes - and it is not unrealistic to expect a high quality, student focused education in return. Now, this does not mean that automatically SLHS cannot provide a good education - but it does mean that these same taxpayers are entitled to open and honest explanations. Let's be up front about the need to maintain racial balance - and be equally up front as to how the school plans to teach a different population with different skill sets - the kids transferring to SLHS need experienced, talented AP teachers in greater numbers than exist now - holdovers from the previous principal will be viewed as suspect - and the school needs to be very clear as to how they will meet the demand.

Hi Quantum,
I think we have been saying that socioeconomic balance (which correlates to race) is important in a school, and that all the schools in the study should have that balance. It is in fact one of the boundary study criteria. We have not been shy about that.

What am I missing?

I think a major point that is trying to be made by some of the people posting from South Lakes is that yes, the problems with the school do lie partially in racial and socio-economic factors. But your children are not minorities and they are not of a lower socio-economic status and so they will not be recieving the lower test scores. If you want an example of this, look at where students who attended Sunrise Valley and went onto Langston Hughes and South Lakes have ended up. Most are in top schools and doing very well.

Thank you, quantum, for one of the best posts that I've seen in the Underground!

South Lakes Pyramid - it is not about what you are saying. It is all about candor at the top - including the school board. When people in leadership are indirect and don't speak bluntly to the truth, they do not inculcate confidence in others. And one can refer to "socio-economic" factors - but when it is used as a surrogate for race, it is at best indirect and at worst less than honest. And being blunt and direct here would hurt some feelings, but I assert that its beneficial effects would be profound because: 1) the honesty would make transferor parents deal with the issue head on and look to making tangible, realistic demands of the school to make the transfer concretely better and workable - this is why I mentioned AP courses - hardly an unrealistic demand given the relevant population; 2) any stigmatization that would occur is exactly what needs to take place - for too long we have approached these discussions with a condescension that is in and of itself racist and dooms too many to the prison of low expectations. There are real cultural impediments associated with race that money has not seemed to satisfy or really improve in any measurable way. And it is not about "blaming the victim". Rather, there are empirical strategies that make sense for everyone in a knowledge based economy (including not having kids out of wedlock) and those strategies by and large simply work. Let's hold all to adopting those strategies. And a fair discussion on a message board is a place to start.

After rereading your post,I think what you want is for someone to say that the surrounding area schools are being "sacrificed" for South Lakes. I'm not sure why you need this kind of affirmation. Schools here are redistricted all the time and it is not characterized this way.

As a SL parent, I find this rather condescending, because of all the reasons I have posted before. I think your children may actually benefit from more diversity. I know mine have. Before we moved to the DC area several years ago. my children attended mostly white schools, meaning there were about 2 black kids at the high school, and not very many Asians, even.

Yes, it was a bit of a shock walking into Hunters Woods for the first time. It did scare me a little. But now, I am very happy with my kid's education and think they are better people for the exposure to so many different ways of thinking. Also, I think having so many other minorities in the school dilutes the whole black/white dynamic.

Truthfully, I think that SL has achieved a kind of balance where the kids mostly get along and I worry that a big influx will disrupt that balance in unpredictable ways. It will definitely change the small community feeling. But, it is also clear that we need more students in order to offer the kinds of courses most in demand. Bruce Butler made this clear at the SL PTA meeting.

Quantum,
What strategies are you referring to?

slgrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will argue that the IB program better prepares
> students for college. Just from personal
> experience and seeing the differences in the
> classroom between kids who did the two programs.

At what college was this observation made and how many participants from each program were involve? Was this a statistically significant sample or are we just reporting anecdotal experience?
>
> Colleges require so many classes these days that
> you are absolutely capable of finding courses to
> take that have no prerequisite and are completely
> worth the money to take. Its your own fault if you
> cant find them and use the lack of test scores as
> an excuse.

Not if you're trying to progress to a degree in a major that also happened to be a subject for which the IB test was taken and not received until too late for freshman year class registration. this problem doesn't happen with AP.

HunterMillVoter has provided some very specific recommendations for your vote. In a new thread, "School Board Election," I posted the Washington Post's recommendations, to include its recommendation for the school bond issue.

With the interest in "diversity," you may wish to review the at-large candidates. Some very positive comments have been made in the Post's editorial.

Oh, you know, those oh so complex strategies that relate to having two parents in the home, a vital and strident focus on education and literacy above all else, a recognition of the degrading effects that cultural phenomena such as hip hop and popular entertainment has on vulnerable populations, a recognition that Government can provide limited benefits and that the best course lies with self accountability, and a conscious choice to build skills in a knowledge based economy before having children that you expect others to care for or subsidize - you know - those kind of strategies - that often get transmogrified to the shibboleth of blaming the victim. Inform people what is expected - and it makes a difference.

And as far as diversity, there likely is some value to it - but my view is that it is vastly overblown. I did not attend a diverse high school, but got plenty of diversity succeeding in a sport that was mostly populated by black athletes. And what I learned was that skin color didn't matter in getting to the finish line first - mostly what mattered (most everyone had considerable talent at the level I was competing at or they wouldn't have even been there) was preparation and focus - which I found strange because while my competitors indeed had that focus when it came to athletics they certainly (for the most part) were not held to the same expectations as I was when it came to academics. I was profoundly disturbed at the cultural differences in expectations - because believe me - the ability to work hard and be disciplined was intrinsically there. Diversity was nice, but it did not add to my education in a substantive way - that revolved around the level of educational attainment and competence that I demonstrated - period. Like anything else worth having, that was earned, and whether I earned with black, asian or any other kind of students sitting next to me did not matter.

its only a problem because you are making it a problem. its one semester. no major at any school requires that you take all your classes for your entire college career in your specific major. there would be plenty of classes to take.

as for IB preparing students better than AP, you are correct it is just an anecdotal observation but you also have no proof that IB does not prepare students better than AP.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid - it is not about what you are
> saying. It is all about candor at the top -
> including the school board. When people in
> leadership are indirect and don't speak bluntly to
> the truth, they do not inculcate confidence in
> others. And one can refer to "socio-economic"
> factors - but when it is used as a surrogate for
> race, it is at best indirect and at worst less
> than honest. And being blunt and direct here
> would hurt some feelings, but I assert that its
> beneficial effects would be profound because: 1)
> the honesty would make transferor parents deal
> with the issue head on and look to making
> tangible, realistic demands of the school to make
> the transfer concretely better and workable - this
> is why I mentioned AP courses - hardly an
> unrealistic demand given the relevant population;
> 2) any stigmatization that would occur is exactly
> what needs to take place - for too long we have
> approached these discussions with a condescension
> that is in and of itself racist and dooms too many
> to the prison of low expectations. There are real
> cultural impediments associated with race that
> money has not seemed to satisfy or really improve
> in any measurable way. And it is not about
> "blaming the victim". Rather, there are empirical
> strategies that make sense for everyone in a
> knowledge based economy (including not having kids
> out of wedlock) and those strategies by and large
> simply work. Let's hold all to adopting those
> strategies. And a fair discussion on a message
> board is a place to start.

You had me on the prior post and lost me on this one. There are plenty of black kids at SL who's parents have degrees from Ivy League Schools, drive expensive cars and moved to the upper income sections of the SL attendance area (yes, there are lots of those) in order for their kids to get a great education in a relatively (for Fairfax, at least) racially tolerant atmoshpere.

There are also a surprisingly substantial number of white kids of blue color background living in the SL attendance area whose parents never graduated from or ever attended classes at college.

Thus to ascribing challenges facing this population of students as all based on race is not only factually inaccurate but unnecessarily immflamatory.

It really is about socio-economic class and the self-defeating pathologies associated therewith, and not race.

For a great take on this read the last few chapters in Jim Webb's great book, Born Fighting, a history of the Scot-Irish in America.

More later.

slgrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> its only a problem because you are making it a
> problem. its one semester. no major at any school
> requires that you take all your classes for your
> entire college career in your specific major.
> there would be plenty of classes to take.

Kids in AP don't have any problems with getting credit for their hard work in high school with advanced placement at college.

> as for IB preparing students better than AP, you
> are correct it is just an anecdotal observation
> but you also have no proof that IB does not
> prepare students better than AP.

My syllogism has been misstated.

The syllogism is that i) IB does not pay off better that a non-IB course choice for the time devoted and ii) that IB a) isn't better than AP, b) is recognized by a far smaller percentage of colleges and c) has more problems than AP.

Does the philosophy department offer Logic at the college you are attending?

More later.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, you know, those oh so complex strategies that
> relate to having two parents in the home, a vital
> and strident focus on education and literacy above
> all else, a recognition of the degrading effects
> that cultural phenomena such as hip hop and
> popular entertainment has on vulnerable
> populations, a recognition that Government can
> provide limited benefits and that the best course
> lies with self accountability, and a conscious
> choice to build skills in a knowledge based
> economy before having children that you expect
> others to care for or subsidize - you know - those
> kind of strategies - that often get transmogrified
> to the shibboleth of blaming the victim.

All of these same phenomenon are observed among blue-collar and poor whites, in some instances at even with higher percentages. Why does it have to be a race thing?

Logic eh? We've never heard of that at this tiny school of mine. My apologies for not understanding your argument. I merely think that the IB program does not warrant the bashing it gets. I had no problems with it and neither did anyone I know. AP is fine too, I just do not agree that it is the better program.

I agree, Quantum, that there are significant cultural differences that correlate to lack of achievement, behavioral problems, etc.

I do know that, unlike the previous principal, Bruce Butler has very high expectations for behavior at school and the statistics are improving. It is possible for kids to meet higher expectations in school even if their home life is not what it should be. This is the original purpose of NCLB.

I read an article about a boarding school (in DC) where inner city kids are required to live there. They can go home for the weekend, but most don't, because they find it is too hard to live "two lives". A very large percentage go onto college and are very high achievers. Taking them out of their environment was what was required.

However, we are in the suburbs--a little different than the inner city. If the kids from deprived home lives interact with the non-deprived kids, or at least see that there is a different way to be, there is hope for them.

Wow, this thread is really getting intellectual. It's starting to be hard to follow all the big words. And logic. I have a few items to share.

-one of my children declined the TJ acceptance and went directly to college (yes, it can be done)

-one child took sufficient AP courses to get a BA degree in three years--rather than graduate early, this child is enjoying a leisurely senior year

-we are below Fairfax County average family income--so no tuition help

-we are pretty average parents--maybe less than (no soccer mom, no pushing kids into programs)

-believe it's all in the "nature and nurture" and kids will pretty much do what they want to--thanks to my genes and spouse's nurturing

What is so infuriating about this process is that people make CHOICES regarding where to live based on many factors, and most people include school district among them. We CHOOSE to live where we do. This means that when I bought my house I CHOOSE a small, beat-up split level that was more expensive than much newer, nicer homes in Reston, soley because it was in the school pyramid I wanted.

But to have STU come along and take away my CHOICE when there are other options available really pisses me off. And then there are our homes. Property values will stabilize and slowly rise, they always do, it's only a 7-year market. But nothing will save our property values if the school district is not desirable.

I don't want ONE SINGLE FAMILY moved from the school of their CHOICE. Other options exist. Cya later Stu, I CHOOSE who receives my vote.

Patriot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is so infuriating about this process is that
> people make CHOICES regarding where to live based
> on many factors, and most people include school
> district among them. We CHOOSE to live where we
> do. This means that when I bought my house I
> CHOOSE a small, beat-up split level that was more
> expensive than much newer, nicer homes in Reston,
> soley because it was in the school pyramid I
> wanted.
>
> But to have STU come along and take away my CHOICE
> when there are other options available really
> pisses me off. And then there are our homes.
> Property values will stabilize and slowly rise,
> they always do, it's only a 7-year market. But
> nothing will save our property values if the
> school district is not desirable.
>
> I don't want ONE SINGLE FAMILY moved from the
> school of their CHOICE. Other options exist. Cya
> later Stu, I CHOOSE who receives my vote.

You chose to live in Reston but don't want to go to Reston's high school?

No viable alternative to boundary line adjustments has been presented on this blog or any where else.

News flash: given the lack of statistical difference between HHS, SLHS and OHS being in either attendance district will have no measurable or discernable impact on property values if your home is redistricted. Any competent appraiser will tell you that.

More later.

no one can really argue that the ib program doesn't prepare you for college. until this year, i didn't really know how much work it is -- and i went to the school. ergo by default no one who didn't personally take ib classes isn't qualified to question their difficulty. right now i'm getting fried in ib english, bio and history-- typically my strongest of subjects

to change tempo, i recommend going to chantilly on november 12 at 7:30 for a meeting. 1-2000 people anticipated.

Cricket,
You can go to this page and find out how many people voted in previous school board elections:
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/eb/returns.htm#Previous

In these off, off, year elections about 33% of the voters turn out.

In the last school board election, 2003, Stu Gibson got 16,573 votes and his opponent, Arthur Purves got 3,724. Christine Arakelian is about a hundred times better candidate than Purves. He's something of a joke, a bit strange and always running for something or other. Christine could beat Stu, IF we get the vote out for her. Vienna will have a large voter turn out because of Jeannemarie/Chap contest. Most people in Vienna don't know a thing about Stu. Those who do know him, don't like him.

I would also urge people to do to the meetings for boundary changes but I would also caution that if Stu Gibson is re elected, he will do whatever he wants with boundaries for South Lakes. Ditto Kathy Smith. It's already been decided what will be done. Sad, but true, the deal has been done. The only way it will be changed is if Stu and Kathy lose their positions on the school board.

Patriot is right. The school pyramid doesn't matter for house values, why do real estate agents advertise if a home is in the Madison district, or Langley, but we never see 'coveted South Lakes pyramid'?

When people move to Faifax county one of the first things they look at is the school district. More people wanting to buy a home makes it more valuable. Obviously. More people will be looking at homes in the Madison pyramid, and Oakton, and Langley, than will be looking in the South Lakes pyramid. More potential buyers, higher house price. There's a reason why South Lakes is under enrolled. Families do not want to move into that district. That makes homes im the pyramid less valuable. Common sense when you think about it.

I feel sorry for people who did everything right to get the right education for their children, only to have it all ripped away from them on the whim of Stu Gibson and Kathy Smith and Janie Straus. One option is to rent in the school district where you want to live. Or rent your house until house values go back up, and buy in the area where you want next summer when prices will still be low.

It's too bad that we don't have CHOICE in schools. We have CHOICE in everything else. Why not schools too?

Of course school pyramid matters in house values. Ask an economist. Or any real estate agent.

>>>Why does it have to be a race thing?<<<

I've also wondered about that. Why does our school board always talk about race, and have so many race based programs, so much affirmative action? Why can't we just have programs based on merit, or need, without regard to race? Why can't entrance to TJ be race blind? Why does Young Scholars, designed to get more black kids into GT Centers, get more money every year? What about Quest, for only black and Hispanic kids to try to get them into TJ? And the tutoring program in Reston for Black kids? Why is every teacher and guidance counselor told to encourage more Black students to take IB and Ap? Why not encourage the poor white kids and poor Asian students too? Why does FCPS keep reams of stats on Black students enrolled in any and every advanced class? What about all the poor Asian kids and poor white kids who don't have any special programs for them? Doesn't seem fair.

You'll have to ask Stu Gibson, or whoever your school board member is, why so much is race based in FCPS. Why is more important for a rich black kid in McLean to take AP classes rather than a poor Asian kid in Herndon? I got nothing for you here.

Where can we see the South Lakes stats improving? Not here:
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/report.do?division=29&schoolName=1310

Six assaults on staff, for the last two posted years. Don't know if Bruce Butler was there then.

SueBonnetSue, I agree strongly with your comments and assessment.

The "diversity" issue has been force-fed to us by the government. As a federal worker I have seen us go from the melting pot to the mixing bowl, with, IMHO, the tangible results you report and observe. Religious fringe groups have corrupted our society with their askewed agendas. Political correctness stifles honest discussions, has introduced metaphors and euphemisms that disrupt the critical thinking process and fact-based decision making.

I have seen also the federal government's efforts to contract out work and services, previously done more efficiently, honestly, and less cost by civil servants--this philosophy is in government regulation and trickles down into state and county government as well. Allied with this effort are the affirmative actions to support minority companies. Examine all the so-called front organizations (read minority) that hold government contracts for major corporations.

We are spending billions of dollars to "democratize" the world. Yet, as a nation, we can't solve the very real problems of medical services, homeless people, poor people, sustainable resources, and other disadvantaged and under served groups. The race card is played daily (unfortunately, often with some justification). Criminal illegal aliens continue to attack, molest, rob, and otherwise provide a drain on our pursuit of happiness and well being.

Just to make clear: I am NOT a racist. I believe in merit and opportunity for all United States citizens. SueBonnetSue has more eloquently explained how I feel.

SueBonnetSue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why
> does FCPS keep reams of stats on Black students
> enrolled in any and every advanced class?

400 hundeds years of official racial discrimination that did not end until sometime in the 1960-1970s.

> What
> about all the poor Asian kids and poor white kids
> who don't have any special programs for them?
> Doesn't seem fair.

Agreed.

SueBonnetSue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Patriot is right. The school pyramid doesn't
> matter for house values, why do real estate agents
> advertise if a home is in the Madison district, or
> Langley, but we never see 'coveted South Lakes
> pyramid'?

Because real estate brokers are snake oil sales men.

> There's a reason why South Lakes is under
> enrolled. Families do not want to move into that
> district.

Because they've been priced out by the Dinks, frat boys
and sorority sisters with subprime money and no kids who want to live close to their job in the Dulles corridor.

> I feel sorry for people who did everything right
> to get the right education for their children,
> only to have it all ripped away from them on the
> whim of Stu Gibson and Kathy Smith and Janie
> Straus. One option is to rent in the school
> district where you want to live. Or rent your
> house until house values go back up, and buy in
> the area where you want next summer when prices
> will still be low.

Just tell them you want AP instead of IB & you're out of there.

> Of course school pyramid matters in house values.
> Ask an economist. Or any real estate agent.

Ask a real estate appraiser and you'll get a different answer.

The School Board is not being honest about the reason for this boundary study. They say it's to eliminate overcrowding.

Westfield holds 3100 they have 3171. Chantilly holds 2625 they have 2838. Both are projected to be under enrolled in 3 years... about the same time that grandfathering would be over if it is allowed. (which is probably why the don't want to do it)

BUT IS ANYONE COMPLAINING...

The following question was asked about the complaints of overcrowding at Chantilly and Westfield under the Freedom of Information Act...

“Specifically, I need to know who the ‘community members’ are and the details of their ‘concerns.’ I want a list of names, the dates their concerns were expressed, and the details of their concerns…”

FCPS ANSWER:

“There aren’t any written or electronic documents pertaining to the community member’s concerns reflected in the July 16 School Board work session agenda item. The statement reflects input received from citizens at various community meetings regarding school facilities. The comments were oral, and were not contained in a letter or e-mail.”

Oral comments from unnamed “citizens at various community meetings” are hardly a mandate for change from the citizenry. Rather, the FOIA response provides little justification for initiating the study in the first place.

I keep hearing different things about overcrowding at Westfield. Some people say it isn't overcrowded. Some people say even though it has the building capacity,their kids can't participate in sports, etc. Which is it?

Westfield is 2% over capacity or 71 students out of 3100. Negligable. True, it is harder to make a team when the school is bigger. But after the taxpayers ponied up the money to (1) build the school and then (2) expand it to 3100, you can't turn around and say well it's just too big. In the business world you'd be fired for making such wrong headed decisions.

Claiming that Westfield and Chantilly are over crowded was the key to eliminating Langley, Madison (except for the island) and others from the Boundary Study. And there is no evidence of any complaints to back this up. See note from Jane Struass below....

"Last summer when the Board decided what the scope of the study should be and the schools that would be considered, other schools in addition to Langley were also not included, namely Falls Church, Woodson and Robinson. As I said earlier, our intent is to try to decrease the large student populations at Westfield and Chantilly and take advantage of the seats at South Lakes. " - Jane Strauss

Stu Gibson is hailed by the papers as having great courage to announce this Boundary Study prior to the election. I think he's a coward. It's not his constituants that are being asked to relocate (except for the island - and there are very few voters in the island). It's Kathy Smith's. He has hung a noose around her neck - and no doubt, she will go down this election.

capys Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Stu Gibson is hailed by the papers as having great
> courage to announce this Boundary Study prior to
> the election. I think he's a coward. It's not his
> constituants that are being asked to relocate
> (except for the island - and there are very few
> voters in the island). It's Kathy Smith's. He has
> hung a noose around her neck - and no doubt, she
> will go down this election.


The only paper that "hailed" Stu is the post...and they really know soooo much about what is going on. They could hail a meatball sub and some sad souls who can't think with thier own brains would blindly follow the piper. come to think about it, I would prefer a meatball sub to Stu.

capys Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
... See note from Jane
> Struass below....
>
> "Last summer when the Board decided what the scope
> of the study should be and the schools that would
> be considered, other schools in addition to
> Langley were also not included, namely Falls
> Church, Woodson and Robinson. As I said earlier,
> our intent is to try to decrease the large student
> populations at Westfield and Chantilly and...

That decision was made years ago in 2003. They used to have contiguous groupings on the CIP but that was removed since it showed some basic geopgraphy some board members DID NOT WANT people to see: Langley /South Lakes/Herndon , Mount Vernon/anything. PLUS Falls Church/Woodson/Robinson.

South County School Contract Still Being Negotiated
Difference of Opinion on Solving Overcrowding Issues
By Jennifer Lesinski
January 22, 2003





No contracts have been signed as yet for the public-private partnership construction of the south county high school, said Thomas Brady, Fairfax County Public Schools chief operating officer, at a School Board work session Jan. 13.
A deal between the county supervisors, School Board and private developer is still being worked on that could potentially have the school build on the former Lorton prison site by 2005 instead of 2008 if left to the schools alone.
Brady did say that even though the school-construction contract has yet to be finalized, the school system will be taking advantage of in-kind proffers from another developer, Pulte, who has agreed to do grading and utility work leading up to the school site.
"You might see work going on there, but it is not a groundbreaking or the beginning of the construction of the school," he said.

IN OTHER CAPITAL improvement program (CIP) news, schools staff stressed that the proposed addition at Langley High School is a permanent addition and that there are no plans to change the school's ...Brady said that staff will soon be recommending a firm to perform a real-estate assessment that includes a plan for the sale, trade or swap of school system property for existing space that can be leased or purchased to be used as classroom space or administrative centers...Brady said.

SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS Rita Thompson and Mychele Brickner, both at-large members, without mentioning the words “boundary change,” suggested the School Board should be looking at reapportioning the attendance areas to address the overcrowding of some schools, while others are underenrolled. The pair did not find support among their fellow members.
"We have overcapacity at Westfield and overcapacity at Langley, and we're under capacity at South Lakes. I understand the political ramifications, but we are responsible to all the taxpayers to show we are being responsible with their money, and we aren't trying to address this," Brickner said.
"A lot of people choose where to live based on the high schools where they live. It has been suggested before that all of Reston should go to South Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to go to South Lakes. I love South Lakes. I have a daughter who went there and another that is going to graduate from there, but North Point Village doesn't want to go there," said Stuart Gibson (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the community and float the idea of a boundary change, go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting that measure."

Thomas More, are you a realtor now or an appraiser? School distirct most certainly does factor in in the value of a home. The "appraiser" values the house on its condition and "livibility" not the location. The market determines the value as well as the supply/demand/interest/economy as well as other factors. And before you ask yes I am in real estate. So you previous post I totally disagree with. Folks all you can do is get out the vote, go AGAINST STU and Kathy Smith and you all should remian where you are for another five to ten years. But YOU MUST GET OUT AND VOTE BE HEARD AND PASS THE WORD!!

> "A lot of people choose where to live based on the
> high schools where they live. It has been
> suggested before that all of Reston should go to
> South Lakes. North Point Village doesn't want to
> go to South Lakes. I love South Lakes. I have a
> daughter who went there and another that is going
> to graduate from there, but North Point Village
> doesn't want to go there," said Stuart Gibson
> (Hunter Mill). "If someone wants to go out in the
> community and float the idea of a boundary change,
> go ahead, but I for one will not be supporting
> that measure."

Well that seals it. Gibson is a lying sack of bovine excrement. He sat at the South Lakes PTA meeting while a parent made a thoughtful explanation why Aldrin and Armstrong should be redistricted into South Lakes and why Forestville being transferred to Herndon to maintain its socio-economic balance. That patronizing schemer nodded and said what an interesting idea never once mentioning his January 2003 statement quoted above.

Arakelian for Hunter Mill is the only choice.

Thomas More - Truth Seeker is correct - the "market" value is how much someone is willing to pay for your house and that's basically the only value that matters when you're selling your house. The appraisal may not change much from one area to another but the list price sure will.

I'm a real estate agent. There are buyers out there right now holding off on purchasing until the redistricting decision is made. It really does matter to people.

Oh and TM, I chose to buy my extremely humble abode in Oak Hill/Herndon, not Reston...

Thomas More - it has to be a race thing because the data makes it that way - period. Yes, "poor whites' have the same kind of problems - but by far and away the most disturbing data reflect that even middle class black students perform worse than their very poor white counterparts. This is a snippet from a recent article published in the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, hardly a source of "right wing" prejudice or world view:
____

But there is a major flaw in the thesis that income differences explain the racial gap. Consider these three observable facts from The College Board's 2005 data on the SAT:

• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.

• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.

• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000.
______________

So when you ask why is it always about race - it is because the statistics make it so. Even the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education states so. And even if you contest the viability of SAT scores, there are numerous other indicators that reflect the same paradigm or worse - NAEP scores for one. Of course, the fact that these statistics exist are really troublesome - because frankly they can be used by those with less than honorable intent - but they exist - and no amount of delusion will make them go away. So ask yourself, what would you do if you, as an educator, had tried virtually every trick in the book, and the "gap" so to speak, still stubbornly persists? Well, to protect your schools, you would seek an influx of demographically "good" students - because the data, and not someone's sensitivities, reflect that this will solve a lot of problems in terms of maintaining the overall quality of the school at issue. So again, why not be honest about what is happening, rather than gloss over the issue with homages to diversity and "socio-economic" factors. There are real cultural impediments to learning in certain communities that transcend money - and a concomitant rejection of tried and true life strategies as well - once again, we need to openly talk about them.

OK, Quantum.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you.....and I'm not sure how saying "race" instead of "socioeconomic class" is going to help the conversation about redistricting. Racial numbers are included in the "demographics" that we are talking about, so you can go by them, and they will be included in the analysis of various redistricting scenarios, if you can believe Stu....

SL Pyramid Parent - Of course the right message will make a difference. With all the dodges, and elliptical uses of language with this issue, we consistently fail to state exactly what is needed - that a certain population must step up to cultural change - must step up to accountability - and must undergo a drastic change. This is what of course Bill Cosby has been saying, to the significant consternation of many - black and white alike - it has not been a message that is received well by those grounded in the civil rights era, who are conditioned to thinking that every ill in the black community is the cause of oppression by whites. Put another way, everyone dances around the fear of stigmatizing a certain group - but bluntly put, stigmatization, as long is it is accompanied by honest debate and accurate facts, can have significant salutary effects. By analogy, that is exactly what welfare reform as enacted by Bill Clinton (to the tremendous umbrage of the Left) in the mid-90's did - it stigmatized the prior behaviors that led to so many being addicted to public entitlement programs and in so doing significantly decreased the welfare rolls - stigmatization, as politically incorrect as it may be, can be an agent for social change. And there's little question that cross-generation welfare dependency can rip the fabric out of affected communities. And this is why I feel so strongly about the need to be accurate as to why political and school leaders are doing what they do - the status quo will continue without open and honest and accurate discussion, and the failure to engage in that kind of discussion only enables the status quo. I find it interesting that there is significant discomfort over what I am writing, but yet no one is substantively contesting the facts as I state them - only emotionally reacting to the notion that I am somehow inappropriately raising the issue of race. Well, I wouldn't raise it if decision makers did not include race in their calculations - but they are in fact doing so - almost to the exclusion of anything else - even though they are not telling you that. And I would further argue that this has been happening since Brown in the 50's, and the discussions have only become more obtuse and elliptical in the passing years, except for the brave few who dare comment on the rather obvious data. Why be anything else but accurate and compelling when the chance presents?

Patriot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More - Truth Seeker is correct - the
> "market" value is how much someone is willing to
> pay for your house and that's basically the only
> value that matters when you're selling your house.
> The appraisal may not change much from one area
> to another but the list price sure will.
>
> I'm a real estate agent. There are buyers out
> there right now holding off on purchasing until
> the redistricting decision is made. It really
> does matter to people.
>
> Oh and TM, I chose to buy my extremely humble
> abode in Oak Hill/Herndon, not Reston...

Real estate agents don't represent the buyer. They don't represent the seller. They represent the commission and will do anything and say anything to get that commission.

Appraisers look at long term pricing trends and not the needs of individual home buyers. But you're a real estate agent and wouldn't understand anything longer than a 90 day closing period.

Keep your buyers out of Fox Mill that elmentary school is definitely going to SL. The question is unanswered on Crossfields. It might still be McNair instead. I certainly hope so. The prospect of those spoiled brats having drag races up Twin Branches or Soapstone to and from SL in their Daddy's BMW scares me to death.

Are your buyers going to wait until March or June for this issue to be resolved or are they waiting until the market for subprime jumbo loans becomes liquid again?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> • Whites from families with incomes of less than
> $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129
> points higher than the national mean for all
> blacks.

This tells me nothing regarding the thesis

> • Whites from families with incomes below $10,000
> had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points
> higher than blacks whose families had incomes of
> between $80,000 and $100,000.

This is persuasive

> • Blacks from families with incomes of more than
> $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points
> below the mean score for whites from all income
> levels,

This tells me little.

> 139 points below the mean score of whites
> from families at the same income level, and 10
> points below the average score of white students
> from families whose income was less than $10,000.

This is persuasive

I'd like to read the whole article is there a link?

Thomas,
What basis to you have for saying Fox Mill is definitely coming to South Lakes? Isn't that an inflammatory statement? I really don't think any decision has been made yet. Unless you know something that no one else does.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> What basis to you have for saying Fox Mill is
> definitely coming to South Lakes? Isn't that an
> inflammatory statement? I really don't think any
> decision has been made yet. Unless you know
> something that no one else does.

Because Gibson made a commitment to the North Point people in January 22, 2003 as reported by Jennifer Lesinski, a copy of that story is in the post from taxpayer above.

Because he made sure that the boundary study area did not include Langley.

Because Butler and most of his staff have said so.

Because 25 years of dealing with Fairfax County government should have taught me that the public participation process is a potemkin village and a kabuki dance to make it seem like public officials are open to public input when in fact the outcomes are pre-determined by the staff and the elected officials long before the notices are posted. I was a total fool to ever think this boundary re-alignment process would be any different.

The only variable is if his craveness buckles to pressure from central staff and Fox MIll and Crossfied parents and gives McNair, Floris or both, to SL instead.

Clearly the continued deterioration of the kids experience at SL will proceed unabated.

Thanks Stu.

Thomas More - the data from JBHE is only a tiny sliver of what is out there - and if you look at it - you will come to the same depressing conclusion every other fair thinker comes to. Of course, I am being a bit argumentative here - so maybe you should just look at the data. You obviously are thoughtful - you will see.

Link: www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html


Look around at the NAEP data too - it is even more compelling. And there is really more out there - a depressing trove of results.

Again, please be clear that I am not in any way exulting at these results. But they are key to understanding what drives both educators and politicians in the decisions they make. And it is really relevant right now - because people - good and well meaning people - by the way - are suggesting with increasing frequency that affirmative action and similar programs ought to be parsed out based on socio-economic status as opposed to race - all fine and well - but those seeking that course ought to be careful what they seek. It would result mostly in poorer Asians and Whites receiving opportunities - maybe a good thing - even the right thing to do - but we shouldn't suffer under the delusion that any form of socio-economic preferences or policy making will resolve the racial achievement gap and the significant problems associated with it. (Ask college admissions officers - socio-economic preferences decrease their definition of diversity - they don't like it). And this means the South Lakes situation - and I admit the concerns of the Oakton and Madison parents are overblown - rational and to a degree understandable, but overblown - will continue- at least until we get the specific problems of cultural infirmity out in the open and attack them, even if it goes against the orthodoxies that remain from the halcyon days of the civil rights era.

Thomas-- Why would central staff care about Fox Mill or Crossfield?

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas-- Why would central staff care about Fox
> Mill or Crossfield?

Because the central staff is already complaining about the pressure from the objections of parents Fox Mill and Crossfields which is all ready at a very high level. Just look at the PTA websites of the two schools.

McNair parents won't be heavily involved thi sprocess. Their PTA is moribund. Look at their web site. So shoving McNair to SL is the course of least resistance.

The central staff just wants to get this over with and get back to whatever they do with the rest of their time.

Thanks Stu

How do we SL parents voice our concerns to Central Staff? We have equally valid concerns and we should be heard too.

Capy,
The Madison island is not in Stu's district. It's in Dranesville, Janie's district.

South Lakes parents need not do anything if they want the boundaries of South Lakes expanded. You have nothing to worry about, Stu will make it happen when he's re elected. South Lakes is his school, he'll get whatever he wants. Just make your views known to him.

Thomas More,
Remember that staff works for Stu. They have to do what he wants, regardless of the fussing from Fox Mill, Crossfield, Aldrin and Armstrong. It's staff's job to deal with the whining. Stu has to deal with it too, or choose not to. Stu decides what is done to his schools. However, if some neighborhoods are causing too much of a fuss, Stu could decide to grab some other neighborhoods. Since Stu has always wanted Aldrin and Armstrong and the island, I'd have to think that their move is a done deal. Ditto Fox Mill. Crossfield? I don't know. McNair? From what Stu has said, they'll go either to Herndon or South Lakes. I can't speculate on which. It's all up to Stu, assuming his re election. If Kathy and Stu are not re elected, then it's all back to square one with all ideas on the table.

Thomas More said
"Because Gibson made a commitment to the North Point people in January 22, 2003 as reported by Jennifer Lesinski, a copy of that story is in the post from taxpayer above.

Because he made sure that the boundary study area did not include Langley.

Because Butler and most of his staff have said so.

Because 25 years of dealing with Fairfax County government should have taught me that the public participation process is a potemkin village and a kabuki dance to make it seem like public officials are open to public input when in fact the outcomes are pre-determined by the staff and the elected officials long before the notices are posted. I was a total fool to ever think this boundary re-alignment process would be any different.

The only variable is if his craveness buckles to pressure from central staff and Fox MIll and Crossfied parents and gives McNair, Floris or both, to SL instead.

Clearly the continued deterioration of the kids experience at SL will proceed unabated.

Thanks Stu."

Spot on Thomas. I think we all know that the deals have been made and the boundaries decided. Very little, if anything at all, will be changed before the vote in February. As long as Stu doesn't lose this election, it's a done deal.

I am sorry. I truly am.

Thanks for all the very interesting information.

Can anyone tell me how Chantilly fits into this picture?

I hope none of this happens and things stay the way they are.
---
McNair is the hot potato. (Assuming they are serious about reducing Westfield.)

I think they will take it from Westfield and they'd have to give it to one of the two bording schools: South Lakes or Herndon. If it goes to Herndon, South Lakes will grab Aldrin and probably Fox Mill. (Herndon is screwed.)

If it goes to South Lakes they still probably help themselves to Fox Mill to balance things out. Oakton lose Fox Mill and pick up the Navy kids (from Chantilly) that don't already go there.
---
I hope none of this happens and things stay the way they are.

Thomas More said:
>>>The prospect of those spoiled brats having drag races up Twin Branches or Soapstone to and from SL in their Daddy's BMW scares me to death.<<<

You seem to have a fair amount of prejudice against those with money. How sad.

Here is one of my favorite columns, discussing the black/white-Asian gap, written by my favorite educator/economist. BTW, Williams is Black.

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/00/losing.html

So no other part of the Chantilly district would be affected, just the Navy kids?

just a guess, nothing to base it on

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More said:
> >>>The prospect of those spoiled brats having drag
> races up Twin Branches or Soapstone to and from SL
> in their Daddy's BMW scares me to death.<<<
>
> You seem to have a fair amount of prejudice
> against those with money. How sad.

It s not prejudice if it's based on actual experience. There has been a serious drag racing problem on South Lakes Drive immediately after school for several years which the principal and the police have done little to stop. The culprits are almost exclusively driving expensive cars like BMWs, Audis and the like. At least the kids from Stonegate don't drive to school because they can't afford the $150 permit.

I heard possibly chantilly highlands going to south lakes.

I say all go take a break and watch the movie "Brazil."

carol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I heard possibly chantilly highlands going to
> south lakes.

How many elementary schools between chantilly highlands and south lakes? They can't all be going to south lakes.

Don't think Chantilly Highlands would be going to SL--haven't heard that scenario.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More,
> Remember that staff works for Stu. They have to
> do what he wants, regardless of the fussing from
> Fox Mill, Crossfield, Aldrin and Armstrong. It's
> staff's job to deal with the whining. Stu has to
> deal with it too, or choose not to. Stu decides
> what is done to his schools. However, if some
> neighborhoods are causing too much of a fuss, Stu
> could decide to grab some other neighborhoods.
> Since Stu has always wanted Aldrin and Armstrong
> and the island, I'd have to think that their move
> is a done deal. Ditto Fox Mill. Crossfield? I
> don't know. McNair? From what Stu has said,
> they'll go either to Herndon or South Lakes. I
> can't speculate on which. It's all up to Stu,
> assuming his re election. If Kathy and Stu are
> not re elected, then it's all back to square one
> with all ideas on the table.


Neen--your math is a little funny. We only have room for 500-700 kids.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More,
> Remember that staff works for Stu.

Not in the staff's mind. Stu and all of us are just inconveniences that have to be managed.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is one of my favorite columns, discussing the
> black/white-Asian gap, written by my favorite
> educator/economist. BTW, Williams is Black.
>
> http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/artic
> les/00/losing.html

Thanks, Neen for Prof. Williams' article. Using facts, he describes very well the dilemma we all confront.

Great monograph! Should be required reading for all in this thread IMHO.

Now if you want a reason to stay away from South Lakes how about the fact that its’ principal could care less about the kids. An example:

Last year South Lakes had a talent show during the school day and Butler closed the show with a rendition of the Hendrix version of the National Anthem. I guess the strategy was that ending with the National Anthem was a cheap way for our principal to get a standing ovation and get the assembly on its feet and back to class. It was great, although the teachers were too out of it to have the kids stand.

Several weeks before the South Lakes sting orchestra had also given a concert during the school day. The first chair percussionist was not only talented but a striking red haired young women. It’s rare for women to choose percussion because its such a "boys" thing and the boys are very territorial. It’s absolutely unprecedented for a girl to get first chair. But there she was in all her glory giving an outstanding performance. Bruce was asked who she was. He had no idea. He had been an assistant principal assigned to that class before taking over as principal after Railly left. He's been at South Lakes at least since 1999. That class had less than 300 kids in its main stream student body and after 4 years of being responsible for the class, Bruce had no idea who this striking young talented women was.

At the time it happened I wrote it off to Bruce being more of a jock than a musician. Bruce had played basketball at South Lakes and tended to stand under the goalposts during home football games schmoozing Wendall Byrd, SL’s basketball coach, instead of interacting with the community in the stands and sidelines.

But when I heard him perform a very good rendition Hendrix’ National Anthem that excuse just died and my disappointment was overwhelming.

I can't believe this guy is that out of it.

earth to tm: put down the crack pipe and no one will get hurt

Bruce Butler a jock? HA!

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> earth to tm: put down the crack pipe and no one
> will get hurt

What on earth are you talking about? Was this an attempt at humor?

reston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce Butler a jock? HA!

Seriously what make you say that?

(Not so seriously) Maybe he's just a jock-sniffer.

Patriot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More - Truth Seeker is correct - the
> "market" value is how much someone is willing to
> pay for your house and that's basically the only
> value that matters when you're selling your house.
> The appraisal may not change much from one area
> to another but the list price sure will.
>
> I'm a real estate agent. There are buyers out
> there right now holding off on purchasing until
> the redistricting decision is made. It really
> does matter to people.
>
> Oh and TM, I chose to buy my extremely humble
> abode in Oak Hill/Herndon, not Reston...


Right on Patriot! Redistricting will have a major impact on property values.

Seems to me, those who lose property value by redistricting have been economically harmed by a perverse form of eminent domain. If so, compensation is appropriate.

Don't Tread on Me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Patriot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas More - Truth Seeker is correct - the
> > "market" value is how much someone is willing
> to
> > pay for your house and that's basically the
> only
> > value that matters when you're selling your
> house.
> > The appraisal may not change much from one
> area
> > to another but the list price sure will.
> >
> > I'm a real estate agent. There are buyers out
> > there right now holding off on purchasing until
> > the redistricting decision is made. It really
> > does matter to people.
> >
> > Oh and TM, I chose to buy my extremely humble
> > abode in Oak Hill/Herndon, not Reston...
>
>
> Right on Patriot! Redistricting will have a major
> impact on property values.
>
> Seems to me, those who lose property value by
> redistricting have been economically harmed by a
> perverse form of eminent domain. If so,
> compensation is appropriate.

I sue local governments for a living. You've got no shot see my earlier post.

Fact - just came from a community meeting regarding this HOT topic, the first and most important thing that the voters from CHANTILLY/OAKTON/WESTFIELD/HERNDON can do is get out the flyers available from:

www.StopRD.org

the candidates have all been polled and this group has the answers the candidates provided and how they will vote when this comes before them in january. Please vist this web site for all the information you will need, it will give you fact not fiction. What ever your reason for not wanting redistricting this group will provide you with the inforation you need. What you HAVE to do is get out and vote.

Now my side, GOOD BYE STU, GOOD BYE KATHY, we learned so much tonight thank you StopRD.org for your valuable information. Pick up a stack of flyers(they are already made) they have thousands available for your district, bring them to your home football game Friday night and cover the windshields of all the cars. Have the kids do it they even have a form that authorizes this as community service for the kids!! WESTFIELD @ OAKTON this Friday pick up the flyers and you can get "two birds with one stone" at the game. When it comes to this issue there is no loser at the football game as long as every car is given a flyer.

LITZENBERGER - sully
Braunlich - at large
Costantine - at large
Raney - at large

VOTE NOVEMBER 6th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

truth seeker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fact - just came from a community meeting
> regarding this HOT topic, the first and most
> important thing that the voters from
> CHANTILLY/OAKTON/WESTFIELD/HERNDON can do is get
> out the flyers available from:
>
> www.StopRD.org
>
> the candidates have all been polled and this group
> has the answers the candidates provided and how
> they will vote when this comes before them in
> january. Please vist this web site for all the
> information you will need, it will give you fact
> not fiction. What ever your reason for not
> wanting redistricting this group will provide you
> with the inforation you need. What you HAVE to do
> is get out and vote.
>
> Now my side, GOOD BYE STU, GOOD BYE KATHY, we
> learned so much tonight thank you StopRD.org for
> your valuable information. Pick up a stack of
> flyers(they are already made) they have thousands
> available for your district, bring them to your
> home football game Friday night and cover the
> windshields of all the cars. Have the kids do it
> they even have a form that authorizes this as
> community service for the kids!! WESTFIELD @
> OAKTON this Friday pick up the flyers and you can
> get "two birds with one stone" at the game. When
> it comes to this issue there is no loser at the
> football game as long as every car is given a
> flyer.
>
> LITZENBERGER - sully
> Braunlich - at large
> Costantine - at large
> Raney - at large
>
> VOTE NOVEMBER
> 6th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> !!!!!!!!!!!


HAD TO POST IT AGAIN TO REENFORCE THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

truth seeker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truth seeker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fact - just came from a community meeting
> > regarding this HOT topic, the first and most
> > important thing that the voters from
> > CHANTILLY/OAKTON/WESTFIELD/HERNDON can do is
> get
> > out the flyers available from:
> >
> > www.StopRD.org
> >
> > the candidates have all been polled and this
> group
> > has the answers the candidates provided and how
> > they will vote when this comes before them in
> > january. Please vist this web site for all the
> > information you will need, it will give you
> fact
> > not fiction. What ever your reason for not
> > wanting redistricting this group will provide
> you
> > with the inforation you need. What you HAVE to
> do
> > is get out and vote.
> >
> > Now my side, GOOD BYE STU, GOOD BYE KATHY, we
> > learned so much tonight thank you StopRD.org
> for
> > your valuable information. Pick up a stack of
> > flyers(they are already made) they have
> thousands
> > available for your district, bring them to your
> > home football game Friday night and cover the
> > windshields of all the cars. Have the kids do
> it
> > they even have a form that authorizes this as
> > community service for the kids!! WESTFIELD @
> > OAKTON this Friday pick up the flyers and you
> can
> > get "two birds with one stone" at the game.
> When
> > it comes to this issue there is no loser at the
> > football game as long as every car is given a
> > flyer.
> >
> > LITZENBERGER - sully
> > Braunlich - at large
> > Costantine - at large
> > Raney - at large
> >
> > VOTE NOVEMBER
> >
> 6th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > !!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> HAD TO POST IT AGAIN TO REENFORCE THE
> POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



ONE MORE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure Kathy will be there with her's too... have the balls to hand them out in person.

No problem! You can bet that people will be there to pass them out in person. They've already passed out 10,000 of them. They're hitting 6,000 homes too.

Thanks Truth Seeker!

Yet another example of Bruce Butler putting the interests of the instructional staff ahead of the students: A sophomore with a reading disability was assigned to a Basic Skills and Remediation (BSR) class, the purpose of which was to give the student remedial assistance in their specific area of need. Unfortunately for the student, the teacher into whose BSR class the student was assigned had no training in language arts but was a science teacher. The teacher knew nothing about language arts and the student was left to do her home in BSR with little on no effort to remediate the language art problems that caused the placement in the first place. When the parents finally discovered this violation of IDEA and confronted Butler that the BSR class had become a “glorified study hall” Butler’s response was that “that’s all that BSR was supposed to be.” When the parents asked why a student with a language arts problem was assigned to a science teacher Butler’s reply was that it needed to be done to fill up that teacher’s class otherwise the teacher would have been required to spend part of the day at another school.

The needs of the student were abandoned to avoid inconveniencing a teacher.

More later

>>>Seems to me, those who lose property value by redistricting have been economically harmed by a perverse form of eminent domain. If so, compensation is appropriate.<<<

Wow! Good point!

Thomas, the situation you describe happens all the time. The goal of any bureaucracy is to sustain itself and keep it's members happy. The focus isn't on the customer, it's on themselves, what they want. That's how our entire school system works. The focus has never, ever, been on the students or parents, but on the staff, keeping them happy, allowing them to have their little fad projects and fad training, more and more staff so they can all do less work, etc. That's why we constantly hire MORE support staff for fewer students and fewer teachers. It's all about the bureaucracy and what works best for THEM.