McNair is not any easy puzzle to solve. McNair will soon move some of their kids to the new Coppermine school who's boundaries will be decided in 08-09. Yeh, another study to look forward to, after we pick up the pieces of this one. Where will the Coppermine kids end up?

More,

Stratford Crossing, is that on your list of unaffordables? this is what others are referring to as "affordable housing", but maybe we are wrong.

Old Timer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Explain exactly how this population could help
> balance the socio-economic characteristics of
> South Lakes.


Is it Old Timer or Alzheimers? ;-)

The part of McNair with the kids described in that article ALREADY goes to HHS. The part of McNair south of the Toll Road is all recent (expensive) construction. Again, the demo for all of McNair is not the demo for the part of McNair that goes to Westfield.

Westfield is not over-crowded. They received a 24-room expansion and a 100 seat cafeteria expansion in 2006. They will be well-under capacity next year. Our district has been involved in 5 boundary changes in 9 years -- ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. They moved us from Oakton in 2000 and we will not be redistricted to ANOTHER high school to correct their miscalculations and experimentation. Jane Strauss needs to review the CIP that FCPS provided before she makes inappropriate and inaccurate remarks - which by the way are a justification for the way Langley was conveniently left out of this study.

FYI the Floris district is CLOSER to Westfield than South Lakes (6 miles vs. 7 miles).

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More,
>
> Stratford Crossing, is that on your list of
> unaffordables? this is what others are referring
> to as "affordable housing", but maybe we are
> wrong.

Its brand new and the rents are over $1100 a month. You'd need an income of not less than $47,000 a year to qualify. That's teachers pay.

I'm sure Rick Hausler at KSI, the developer, would like to know that his neighbors think of his project as comparable to Alabama and Stonegate.

There may be ADUs in there but ask what the rent is at Stonegate by comparison.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2007 03:48PM by Thomas More.

Thomas,
Jefferson Commons is south of the toll road and has 286 units.

BTW, this map shows very little affordable housing north of the toll road in Herndon, so obviously, this map isn't telling the whole story.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> Jefferson Commons is south of the toll road and
> has 286 units.
>
> BTW, this map shows very little affordable housing
> north of the toll road in Herndon, so obviously,
> this map isn't telling the whole story.

Those are market rate apartments also. This map must be of market rate apartments.

More Later

Westfield Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FYI the Floris district is CLOSER to Westfield
> than South Lakes (6 miles vs. 7 miles).

Other than Neen I can't think of anyone advocating Floris to SL. Is Chantilly closer to Floris than Westfield? It looks that way on a map.

More Later

Westfield Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield is not over-crowded. They received a
> 24-room expansion and a 100 seat ...Jane Strauss needs to review the
> CIP that FCPS provided before she makes
> inappropriate and inaccurate remarks - which by
> the way are a justification for the way Langley
> was conveniently left out of this study.
>
> FYI the Floris district is CLOSER to Westfield
> than South Lakes (6 miles vs. 7 miles).


but Jane and Stu PROMISED...she's got people so close to Herndon HS I don't know if they would get a bus. Parents shop at the Sterling/Herndon Giant and others hang out at North Point in Reston. Kids get exception to ride so they can pick up the TJ bus at Herndon. Others are bussed to Kilmer past and through the South Lakes attendance area. StopRD is for a moratorium not perpetual immunity.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > More,
> >
> > Stratford Crossing, is that on your list of
> > unaffordables? this is what others are
> referring
> > to as "affordable housing", but maybe we are
> > wrong.
>
> Its brand new and the rents are over $1100 a
> month. You'd need an income of not less than
> $47,000 a year to qualify. That's teachers pay.
>
> I'm sure Rick Hausler at KSI, the developer, would
> like to know that his neighbors think of his
> project as comparable to Alabama and Stonegate.
>
> There may be ADUs in there but ask what the rent
> is at Stonegate by comparison.


So, I think more of the problem at McNair is the number of non-english speakers regardless of where they live, affordable or not. And you can expect in a community of apartments, townhouses, condos, the turn-over is more frequent. McNair's fluctuating enrollment numbers should testify to the difficulty in teaching in a school with revolving doors, compounded by the fact that lots of kids show up with poor English speaking skills. It is not unlike Bailey's Elementary, except someone seems to have cared about Bailey's.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FYI the Floris district is CLOSER to Westfield
> > than South Lakes (6 miles vs. 7 miles).
>
> Other than Neen I can't think of anyone advocating
> Floris to SL. Is Chantilly closer to Floris than
> Westfield? It looks that way on a map.


Chantilly is closer to Floris and so is Herndon.

>
> but Jane and Stu PROMISED...she's got people so
> close to Herndon HS I don't know if they would get
> a bus. Parents shop at the Sterling/Herndon Giant
> and others hang out at North Point in Reston.
> Kids get exception to ride so they can pick up the
> TJ bus at Herndon. Others are bussed to Kilmer
> past and through the South Lakes attendance area.
> StopRD is for a moratorium not perpetual immunity.



I don't understand your point here.

To be sure that we don't run our of things to talk about...

Old Timer and others, let's ponder this...suppose the county was only dealing with the "under-enrollment" of South Lakes (as it claims). Suppose you take Westfield and Chantilly off the table for this discussion. How would you tackle a plan to up the enrollment at South Lakes? Would including Langley be smart?

You could swap to discuss the "over-enrollment" of Westfield or Chantilly.

Break the boundary study "purposes" into single issues to tackle and I think folks could be far more logical, creative and fair, than where the county has us headed.

oops meant "run out of" not "run our of"

Cricket, it's clear we will never run out of things to talk about. We are all involved community members and want the best for our schools. I think any school would be blessed to have parents like those posting here. I agree that the discussions should be logical. I also agree that having Langley in mix would be helpful. I invite you to try to get Langley on the table and wish you good luck. Since they aren't currently in the mix, we have to move forward as things now stand. Unfortunately, we can't afford the luxury of waiting for something that likely will not happen.

non english speakers at mcnair...

take a stroll down alabama near the ball fields and you'll see where they're located

Thomas, the map I have is labelled "County of FFX Affordable Rental Housing" 2005-6. It has dots with labels indicating whether the dot refers to:

Public Housing
Fairfax County Rental Program
Supportive Housing
Privately Owned Federally Assisted Rental Units
Privately Owned Non-Federally Assisted Rental Units
Rental Affordable Dwelling Units
Proffered Rental Affordable Units


Jefferson is of the Privately Owned Non-Federally Assisted Rental Units
variety. These include Housing Trust Fund Low Income Housing Credit, FCRHA Tax Exempt Bond and/or VHDA Bond Financed.

Not sure that helps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2007 05:09PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be sure that we don't run our of things to talk
> about...
>
> Old Timer and others, let's ponder this...suppose
> the county was only dealing with the
> "under-enrollment" of South Lakes (as it claims).

I didn't realize that was the "claim," but then again it could be the alzheimers kicking in.

Do you mean the letter to homeowners that says - "The goal of the boundary is two-fold to to address programmatic issues from over or under enrollment and to make efficient use of available school capacity?"

> Suppose you take Westfield and Chantilly off the
> table for this discussion. How would you tackle a
> plan to up the enrollment at South Lakes? Would
> including Langley be smart?

I already said so - see my post at 12:54pm today.

> You could swap to discuss the "over-enrollment" of
> Westfield or Chantilly.
>
> Break the boundary study "purposes" into single
> issues to tackle and I think folks could be far
> more logical, creative and fair, than where the
> county has us headed.

Are you referring to the four considerations from the school board work session?

1) projected school enrollment and capacity
2) distribution of program and resources
3) socio-economic characteristics of school populations
4) contiguous school attendance areas

Regardless of what a specific school board member said - there are four criteria. Unfortunately, they can't be discretely discussed and tackled. Moving population will/can affect the socio-economic characteristics of the school populations.

If it was easy - there wouldn't be this forum and all the discussion.

Old Timer aka Alzheimers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > the county was only dealing with the
> > "under-enrollment" of South Lakes (as it
> claims).
>
> I didn't realize that was the "claim," but then
> again it could be the alzheimers kicking in.
>
> Do you mean the letter to homeowners that says -
> "The goal of the boundary is two-fold to to
> address programmatic issues from over or under
> enrollment and to make efficient use of available
> school capacity?"
> >
> > Break the boundary study "purposes" into single
> > issues to tackle and I think folks could be far
> > more logical, creative and fair, than where the
> > county has us headed.
>
I was really referring to the "purposes" that Jane Strauss laid out in her memo that was posted earlier.

>
> If it was easy - there wouldn't be this forum and
> all the discussion.


And then we would have no fun.

I cannot overestimate just how much rancor the school redistricting is causing in my neighborhood. I think the South Lakes supporters have a point - many of the concerns are overblown - especially given, as Stu Gibson freely relates, the anticipated influx of good students to South Lakes - the whole gravamen of his cause - will improve the academic statistics at South Lakes. But at the same time the to be transferors are being asked to attend a school that has a number of different aspects (some negative) to it, and they can continually position themselves as less than well served unless they are treated well.

But I think a few points stand out,in many respects guided by the terms of this debate, which despite some negative and non-probative posts. is still on the whole helpful.

First, irrespective of one's views on the IB vs. AP issue, if the prior post is accurate - i.e., students can pupil place if they evince a desire to engage in an AP program, the South Lakes transfer will fail. I can say that nearly everyone in my neighborhood would opt for pupil placement at Oakton under the guise of no AP program. So again, as much as it pains those who dislike looking at schools from a marketplace perspective - that is - they do get judged as to how well they serve their customers - without a vibrant AP program taught by experienced teachers (and some of the recent troubles with qualification problems in AP curricula augur for experienced teachers) - pupil placement requests will be high - very much so.

Second, irrespective of one's positive or negative views of SLHS, there is little doubt in my mind that South Lakes and its supporters would benefit from a marketplace orientation and make a concerted push to compete for students as if there were not redistricting mandate. This is not as easy as it sounds - there is a status quo set up for the existing population and marketing, so to speak, to a group of students that are not even there yet (although I am persuaded redistricting is a foregone conclusion) is not an easy thing to do - running a school these days is a reactive exercise and being strategic and proactive - in ways other than spiffing up a building, is not something to which education bureaucrats are used.

Third - let's get practical - any solution to South Lakes' declining fortunes - that is what they are - let's not beat around it - can't result in another school meeting the same fate. And let's face it - take the North Reston crowd away from Herndon and they will lose a significant slug of quality students - and begin (likely) a significant decline. It would give all sorts of rather obvious vibes about the role that power and money can play in redistricting (duh), and make the school board look more like social engineering bureaucrats than they already do.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, the map I have is labelled "County of FFX
> Affordable Rental Housing" 2005-6. It has dots
> with labels indicating whether the dot refers to:
>
> Public Housing
> Fairfax County Rental Program
> Supportive Housing
> Privately Owned Federally Assisted Rental Units
> Privately Owned Non-Federally Assisted Rental
> Units
> Rental Affordable Dwelling Units
> Proffered Rental Affordable Units

> Jefferson is of the Privately Owned Non-Federally
> Assisted Rental Units
> variety. These include Housing Trust Fund Low
> Income Housing Credit, FCRHA Tax Exempt Bond
> and/or VHDA Bond Financed.
>
> Not sure that helps.

I think that means market rate rents but await correction from someone more familiar with this nomenclature.

Cricket Wrote:
> So, I think more of the problem at McNair is the
> number of non-english speakers regardless of where
> they live, affordable or not. And you can expect
> in a community of apartments, townhouses, condos,
> the turn-over is more frequent. McNair's
> fluctuating enrollment numbers should testify to
> the difficulty in teaching in a school with
> revolving doors, compounded by the fact that lots
> of kids show up with poor English speaking skills.
> It is not unlike Bailey's Elementary, except
> someone seems to have cared about Bailey's.

I think that like Old Timer aka Alzheimer, you are confusing the portion of McNair that lives north of the Toll Road which already goes to Herndon with the portion that lives south of the Toll Road . . .

and demonstrating a fair amount of ignorance and more than a little snobbery.

On average, nationally, single family detached (SFD) homes turn over once every four years. Washington rates are sightly faster. Townhouses don't turn over much faster than SFDs. Condo turn over at a slightly faster rate. Apartments turn over every two to three years. None of these rates of turn-over are significantly different from a capital improvement program perspective.

Also the "transient" apartment renters tend not to have any kids on average.

Again, the portion of McNair south of the Toll Road looks a lot like Tysons Corner. Multi-family and towns mixed in with a lot of commercial office and retail. Mostly white, mostly middle class.

Take a ride. Take a walk. Open your eyes, your mind and your Gringe-sized heart.

More Later

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > More,
> >
> > Stratford Crossing, is that on your list of
> > unaffordables? this is what others are
> referring
> > to as "affordable housing", but maybe we are
> > wrong.
>
> Its brand new and the rents are over $1100 a
> month. You'd need an income of not less than
> $47,000 a year to qualify. That's teachers pay.
>
> I'm sure Rick Hausler at KSI, the developer, would
> like to know that his neighbors think of his
> project as comparable to Alabama and Stonegate.
>
> There may be ADUs in there but ask what the rent
> is at Stonegate by comparison.



Ok, I was wrong, I meant The Fields of Herndon

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket Wrote:
> > So, I think more of the problem at McNair is
> the
> > number of non-english speakers regardless of
> where
> > they live, affordable or not. And you can
> expect
> > in a community of apartments, townhouses,
> condos,
> > the turn-over is more frequent. McNair's
> > fluctuating enrollment numbers should testify
> to
> > the difficulty in teaching in a school with
> > revolving doors, compounded by the fact that
> lots
> > of kids show up with poor English speaking
> skills.
> > It is not unlike Bailey's Elementary, except
> > someone seems to have cared about Bailey's.
>
> I think that like Old Timer aka Alzheimer, you are
> confusing the portion of McNair that lives north
> of the Toll Road which already goes to Herndon
> with the portion that lives south of the Toll Road
> . . .
>
> and demonstrating a fair amount of ignorance and
> more than a little snobbery.
>
> On average, nationally, single family detached
> (SFD) homes turn over once every four years.
> Washington rates are sightly faster. Townhouses
> don't turn over much faster than SFDs. Condo turn
> over at a slightly faster rate. Apartments turn
> over every two to three years. None of these
> rates of turn-over are significantly different
> from a capital improvement program perspective.
>
> Also the "transient" apartment renters tend not to
> have any kids on average.
>
> Again, the portion of McNair south of the Toll
> Road looks a lot like Tysons Corner. Multi-family
> and towns mixed in with a lot of commercial office
> and retail. Mostly white, mostly middle class.
>
> Take a ride. Take a walk. Open your eyes, your
> mind and your Gringe-sized heart.


"non english speakers at mcnair...

take a stroll down alabama near the ball fields and you'll see where they're located"

I think it is Grinch, but anyway...

a ride down Coppermine to McNair Farms Dr. to Thomas Jefferson Drive conceptually reveals the same as Alabama Ave. I just don't believe that the Alabama Ave. is the sole contributor to McNair's non-English demographic. It can't be.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thomas, the map I have is labelled "County of
> FFX
> > Affordable Rental Housing" 2005-6. It has dots
> > with labels indicating whether the dot refers
> to:
> >
> > Public Housing
> > Fairfax County Rental Program
> > Supportive Housing
> > Privately Owned Federally Assisted Rental Units
> > Privately Owned Non-Federally Assisted Rental
> > Units
> > Rental Affordable Dwelling Units
> > Proffered Rental Affordable Units
>
> > Jefferson is of the Privately Owned
> Non-Federally
> > Assisted Rental Units
> > variety. These include Housing Trust Fund Low
> > Income Housing Credit, FCRHA Tax Exempt Bond
> > and/or VHDA Bond Financed.
> >
> > Not sure that helps.
>
> I think that means market rate rents but await
> correction from someone more familiar with this
> nomenclature.



Thomas, if this is market rate rents, they would not be on the affordable housing map. It could be that the rents are market, but are subsidized by the county?

Also, there is another development--Dulles center Apt. Homes, that is the upper western tip of Westfield, west of Centreville and just beneath the toll road There are 272 units of Privately Owned Non-Federally assisted REntal Units.

>
> I think that like Old Timer aka Alzheimer, you are
> confusing the portion of McNair that lives north
> of the Toll Road which already goes to Herndon
> with the portion that lives south of the Toll Road
> . . .
>
> and demonstrating a fair amount of ignorance and
> more than a little snobbery.
>
>
> Again, the portion of McNair south of the Toll
> Road looks a lot like Tysons Corner. Multi-family
> and towns mixed in with a lot of commercial office
> and retail. Mostly white, mostly middle class.

I don't think I am confused. I drive and walk through the McNair area everyday. I, at least knew where the boundaries were, from the get-go. So I can't be that ignorant. How often are you in the area or in the school? Do you understand why McNair continues to not pass muster? How snobbish is it to blame McNair's challenges on the Alabama Avenue crowd?

Also interesting --there is no affordable housing near Alabama Ave shown on the Affordable Housing map.

The bigger issue is here is the zoning of all of this land west of Centreville Rd south of the toll rd for High Density Development. They are slamming in apartment units left and right.

A quick google of "coppermine" and "fairfax county public schools" yeields some what's going on with the developers.

If all this goes through we'll be redrawing lines again soon. Excuse my french but these units don't attact the high end students, which is why there is a keen interest in McNair on this board.

The schools closest to this development will be expected to carry the brunt of the burden because of proximity to the area. In my opinion, Fairfax County is looking to take a dive with no room left for single family homes and this type of growth.

Despite all of the rhetoric, there is something wrong with the current boundaries when the distance for someone to go to a given school is as follows:

South Lakes: 3.2 miles
Chantilly: 5.6 miles
Herndon: 6.1 miles
Oakton: 8.9 miles
Westfield: 9.1 miles

Where does this child go to school? Oakton!

Another example:

South Lakes: 4.2 miles
Chantilly: 4.4 miles
Herndon: 4.9 miles
Westfield: 7.2 miles
Oakton: 12.1 miles

Where does this child go to school? Oakton!

Oakton is less than two miles from each of Madison and Fairfax high schools. Fairfax high school is less than two miles from Woodson. If you lived between OAkton and Fairfax, you would have four high schools within three miles. That make the districts for all of these high schools extend further than they would if the schools were not on top of each other. Not ideal, but it is what it is, and to populate those schools, you need to include some kids who are physically closer to another school.

There are many more places in the west part of the county with no high schools within five miles, so long trips are fact of life no matter which school kids are assigned to.

Any housing is more affordable if you have 2-3 families sharing the rent.

Another concerned parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oakton is less than two miles from each of Madison
> and Fairfax high schools. Fairfax high school is
> less than two miles from Woodson. If you lived
> between OAkton and Fairfax, you would have four
> high schools within three miles. That make the
> districts for all of these high schools extend
> further than they would if the schools were not on
> top of each other. Not ideal, but it is what it
> is, and to populate those schools, you need to
> include some kids who are physically closer to
> another school.
>
> There are many more places in the west part of the
> county with no high schools within five miles, so
> long trips are fact of life no matter which school
> kids are assigned to.


But why does it make sense to send a student to a slightly overenrolled school 12 miles away when there two underenrolled school less than 5 miles away?

The enrollment differences at Oakton and Herndon are very small compared to the size increments you make when redistricting, since that affects whole neighborhoods with hundreds of students.

The South Lakes underenrollment is a different subject. Surveys of local residents show that South Lakes is not the first choice of parents for various reasons. While each person will see things differently, many parents in this area voice concerns related to programs not offered at South Lakes, and recent academic performance compared with other local schools. Thus it has been politically unpopular to redistrict students into South Lakes. However, that may be a secondary concern now if South Lakes has too many students in at risk areas for NCLB.

Cricket Wrote:
>
> a ride down Coppermine to McNair Farms Dr. to
> Thomas Jefferson Drive conceptually reveals the
> same as Alabama Ave. I just don't believe that
> the Alabama Ave. is the sole contributor to
> McNair's non-English demographic. It can't be.

Cricket is correct. There are subsidized units in the Coppermine area, close to the school and they are contributing to the difficulties the school is having. For as long as I have raised children in Fairfax County schools there have been problems with transient housing and kids being moved in and out. I think transient housing most definitely includes families or at least single parents.

I'm waving the BS flag on myself.

After reading all of the comments above regarding McNair students and at-risk students in general, I have to ask why anyone is suggesting on this site is suggesting sending that school to South Lakes? McNair is currently at Westfield, with not a lot of detriment to Westfield, if one looks at the numbers.

Also, I hear a lot of railing on this site about Langley and its insular boundaries. Has anyone stopped to ask why Oakton's boundary seems to avoid all the "problem" areas and be limited primarily to single-family homes? It would be nice if those on this site who are mad about Langley would acknowledge the irony in their own positions.

Westfield is going to be reduced, by removing McNair. We've been over this already.

If it doesn't go to South Lakes it goes to Herndon and they woud have to give up Aldrin... be prepared for a fight. But then why involve other schools when the probelm can be solved directly between the one that is overpopulated and the one that is underpopulated... the path of least resistance.

Why is OK for Westfield or Herndon to have McNair and not South Lakes? As I have read here, South Lakes SATs are on a par with the other schools? Or is that not the case?

Oakton is part of the study, you should know that by now. Langley is not. And acutally there are alot of apartments and townhouses in the Oakton district. Blake Lane / Jermantown Rd area see for yourself.

This site www.schooldigger.com has some nice comparison charts showing enrollment history (e.g. decline at South Lakes accelerating in recent years, vs stable size at other schools) and test scores (failure % on SOLs in the 10-20% range at South Lakes vs. 0% at Oakton and Madison). Plus lots of other good information.

Word, that doesn't answer my question as to why Oakton has been so insulated.

Not one SLposter on this site has suggested that South Lakes SAT scores are 'on par' or that SL would not benefit from and/or needs more middle class students. We are slowly coming back from years of neglect by this School system. The last thing we need is to accept more underprivileged students.

Why are you so closed to accepting McNair at your school? If the AP gives more college credits than IB, as your side has stated, then why would you advocate for low-income kids to have to bear the burden of risking few credits from IB? Why would you not advocate for them to attend an AP school, where they might get an economic boost in the long run.

Word said, "If it doesn't go to South Lakes it goes to Herndon and they woud have to give up Aldrin... be prepared for a fight. But then why involve other schools when the probelm can be solved directly between the one that is overpopulated and the one that is underpopulated... the path of least resistance."

It is not a given that McNair goes to South Lakes or Herndon, much as you might like that to be the outcome. The path of least resistance is exactly what this School Board has thought about South Lakes for far too many years. We are not going to take this sitting down and we most decidedly are prepared for a fight. Perhaps you are not used to getting one from us.

Incidentally, the townhouses along Blake lane are a step up from, for example, those on Alabama Avenue. Not all townhouses are 'bad,' you know.

Sorry to be so smarmy, but your post was very aggravating.

The other concerned parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This site www.schooldigger.com has some nice
> comparison charts showing enrollment history (e.g.
> decline at South Lakes accelerating in recent
> years, vs stable size at other schools) and test
> scores (failure % on SOLs in the 10-20% range at
> South Lakes vs. 0% at Oakton and Madison). Plus
> lots of other good information.

And why do you suppose the SOL scores are what they are. Have you looked at the numbers for free and reduced lunch at each school.

A fair comparison would be to look at SOL scores for the same kinds of students at each school. For example, how do middle class kids at South Lakes compare to middle class kids at Oakton? If South Lakes is currently doing a good job with their middle class students with regards to say, SOLs, why would it not do so with middle class students transferring in?

SLV - Do you have amnesia??? go read the last few pages.

Ask SLPP about the SAT scores.

McNair cannot go to Oakton unless your going to create two Islands. The Islands will go away.

Alabama townhouses - these people already go to Herndon and are not in play.

All of this has already been discussed. You need some new material.

Word, I was using the Alabama townhouses as a basis for comparison, not implying that they are in the SL pyramid. Sorry you could not see that.

Just because you don't like what I say does not mean I am going away. I have just as much right as you to post my opinions, and in my opinion, Oakton has a fairly insulated boundary that protects it from 'most' townhouses and apartments. One might argue that Oakton has students that should have been in South Lakes years ago, particularly when Oakton was adding trailors right and left.

As far as rehashing goes, you perhaps need to stop using the 'island' argument. It is not written in stone that no islands will be created. In fact, that may be the only solution to this study.

It's funny how you don't mind making proposals that negatively affect other schools, but when one is suggested that might affect yours you cry foul or 'island.'

Word,
I just did a search on the last 3 pages and could find no reference to SAT scores. I did find many instances of anti-redistricting parents using the 'no island' argument. Perhaps you need new material.

Anti-redistricting posters on this site have told me that:

-South Lakes is bad.
-IB is bad.
-AP is good.
-There will be no islands - Stu said, Janey said, etc, ad nauseum.
-Leave our schools alone.
-This is all about social engineering.
-Market forces are good.
-Just leave us out of it.
-We paid taxes to live in this school district.

When you moved here did you not realize that you are part a large and dymanic school system? Was there some kind of guarantee at your real estate settlement that your school district would remain static?

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, if this is market rate rents, they would
> not be on the affordable housing map. It could be
> that the rents are market, but are subsidized by
> the county?

What agency issues this map?

I'm not aware of a county subsidy that isn't a pass through of a federal program like Section 8 housing.

More Later

SLV

- on the SAT scores contact South Lakes Pyramid Parent
- Second section: no/no/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/we all do
- yes/no

LOLA Espanola Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any housing is more affordable if you have 2-3
> families sharing the rent.

Most of these situations happen at single family detached units or townhouses own by an absentee landlord not in apartment complexes. Ask the Zoning Administrators office.

More Later

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, there is another development--Dulles center
> Apt. Homes, that is the upper western tip of
> Westfield, west of Centreville and just beneath
> the toll road There are 272 units of Privately
> Owned Non-Federally assisted REntal Units.

This is definitely market rate housing. Very recent construction. Rent $1300/month. You'd need to make $58,000 to qualify.

Are we going down the whole list?

More Later

Cricket Wrote:
> Ok, I was wrong, I meant The Fields of Herndon

Brand new construction. You have to make $35-40,000 to live here. Again a Kettler project.

Whats the point, you object to any apartment house in your high school's attendance area.

Cricket Wrote:
> a ride down Coppermine to McNair Farms Dr. to
> Thomas Jefferson Drive conceptually reveals the
> same as Alabama Ave. I just don't believe that
> the Alabama Ave. is the sole contributor to
> McNair's non-English demographic. It can't be.

Well it is true.

This is delusional. All of these streets have newly constructed housing that's less than 10 years old managed by regional developers and investors who would go broke if they rent to the poor and illiterate. The land cost and the cost of construction drive the rent levels to heights that few day labors and the like can afford.

The public housing that wraps around the baseball field on Alabama is 40 years old and looks it inside and out. They aren't part of McNair. I think they go to Herndon Elementary.

The townhouses that are on either side of Alabama and are in McNair are 35 years old.

Compare the cars in the parking lots between Alabama and Coopermine. No they're not all Mercedes on Coopermine but there aren't alot with mismatching quarter panels and rust outs.

The poor always seek out the older housing stock because older housing is almost always cheaper.

Is your operating assumption that all apartmetnt dwellers are objectionable?

The point I'm trying get you to understand is that adding the part of McNair south of the Toll Road now going to Westfield to either SL or HHS will not diminish the demographoics of either SL or HHS, might improve them and could easily be assign to either high school

More Later

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket Wrote:
> >
> > a ride down Coppermine to McNair Farms Dr. to
> > Thomas Jefferson Drive conceptually reveals the
> > same as Alabama Ave. I just don't believe that
> > the Alabama Ave. is the sole contributor to
> > McNair's non-English demographic. It can't be.
>
> Cricket is correct. There are subsidized units in
> the Coppermine area, close to the school and they
> are contributing to the difficulties the school is
> having. For as long as I have raised children in
> Fairfax County schools there have been problems
> with transient housing and kids being moved in and
> out. I think transient housing most definitely
> includes families or at least single parents.

No Cricket is dead wrong. The vast majority of those multi-family unit are expensive and aimed at singles and couples without kids. Not a very large percentage of those units will ever have children. Average number of kids per multi-family housing unit just don't support this presumption. The School Board has this information and their ratios are over-estimating the amount of children generated by all housing types based on actual enrollments.

I guess neither Cricket and SLVerify ever lived in an apartment and their kids are all moving directly into a sfd as soon as they graduate from college.

More Later

Thomas More said:
>>>It's like they are dutifully waiting for Stu to tell them the outcome when he figures it all out politically.<<<

You don't think he already has this figured out? A year ago Janie Straus told Langley parents that they would not be part of this boundary change. She also explained why some schools would have to send students to South Lakes, even those that were not over enrolled. The deals were all done then. Stu knew then who would be sent to South Lakes. He knew too that he would not allow a magnet program, or any other solution to the problem of under enrollment at South Lakes. The deal has been done, and part of the solution is McNair to South Lakes. Sending McNair and Floris is the path of least resistance and requires no other school board members to be involved.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sending McNair and Floris is the
> path of least resistance and requires no other
> school board members to be involved.

Isn't most of Floris in Sully? Chantilly is closer. Floris is almost exclusively sfd meaniing politically active. Can't see those parents accepting the longer bus ride readily.

More Later

Stu's argument that the school board regs don't allow a change is just silly. Who the heck writes the school board regs? They do! Just as they wrote the regs, they can re write the regs, at any moment they choose. They can also pass an exception to this reg in this instance. HELLOOOOO............they write their own rules! They can do whatever the heck they want to do!

Langley isn't in the boundary study because Stu agreed to not put it in. I know that's rather obvious. Why did he make that deal with Janie? I don't know, but I can guess. In exchange for allowing Herndon to be in the study, Stu agreed to not put any Langley students into the study.

Each school board member decides what happens at their schools. Another school board member would never get involved, or vote against, what Stu wants in his district, UNLESS it effected students in their own district. To include Herndon in the study, Stu had to get Janie's permission. She obviously agreed to throwing Herndon under the bus, but held Langley harmless. Kathy agreed to let students in Westfield and Chantilly be involved, and Crossfield. That's how it works, each school board member represents their district and has say over what happens in their district. Other school board members stay out of it. If you think about it, it makes sense to do it that way.

Christine is not the least bit batty and she certainly has more than one issue. Her biggest issue is improving the lowest performing schools in the district. She worries that these children on the bottom have no advocates. Stu certainly hasn't done anything to help these children. Services for kids who are both gifted and learning disabled is another issue. Services for autistic children and advocating for parents who can't get the help that their children need, is very big on her agenda. Exploring alternative to redistricting is another issue. Magnet programs that attract students is something she would like to consider. She would like ALL of the communities involved BEFORE the school board begins these boundary studies.

Christine wants to improve things at South Lakes, and all the low performing schools in Reston, something that Stu hasn't done in TWELVE YEARS. Why would anyone want to re elect him? He's done nothing to help Reston schools.

Stu talks about the crazy boundaries back in 2002. It's now 2007, what has he done about those crazy boundaries in the last 5 years?

How many years has McNair been in trouble? What has Stu done to help McNair and Dogwood and the other low performing schools? Other parts of the county have schools with the SAME demographics and several of those elementary schools have really turned things around. Why hasn't Stu done that in his district schools? Why are poor black schools in Richmond and Newport News, and 8 other poor districts, doing better than the low income schools in Stu's district? It can be done, there's proof of it all over the state and right in this county, so why hasn't Stu done it for his schools?

>>>the Floris district is CLOSER to Westfield than South Lakes (6 miles vs. 7 miles).<<<

I suggest that you not use that argument in the community meetings. It is not compelling.

The easiest thing for Stu to do is to send McNair and Floris to South Lakes. I suspect that the community groups will agree.

>>>Floris is almost exclusively sfd meaniing politically active. Can't see those parents accepting the longer bus ride readily.<<<

A bus ride that is farther by ONE MILE? Not a compelling argument. Floris parents objected to being booted from Oakton, it didn't work. Is Floris as organized as Herndon PTA? And Crossfield and Fox Mill?

If Stu and Kathy are re elected, there is absolutely nothing to prevent them from sending McNair and Floris to South Lakes. It upsets the fewest people and the fewest neighborhoods. If people at Floris really don't want to go to South Lakes they need to vote against Stu and Kathy. Otherwise, they are the most likely to be sent. There's no reason for Stu and Kathy to do anything else.

Thomas, I am not advocating that Floris go to South Lakes. But I am a realist, and it would seem that McNair and Floris to South Lakes would meet with the least resistance.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Floris is almost exclusively sfd meaniing
> politically active. Can't see those parents
> accepting the longer bus ride readily.<<<
>
> A bus ride that is farther by ONE MILE? Not a
> compelling argument.

It is when Chantilly is much closer than either and part of the study area.
Bump all of Navy to Oakton and there's room for Floris at Chantilly.

And as I understand it most of Floris participates in CYA youth activities.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 01:48AM by Thomas More.

>>>Fairfax County is looking to take a dive with no room left for single family homes and this type of growth.<<<

Tell it to Gerry Connelly. He, and the Supervisor of that district, control the zoning. If we don't like the growth then we need to throw the bums out of office.

>>>We are slowly coming back from years of neglect by this School system.<<<<

Can anyone tell me why voters in Reston vote for Stu Gibson? This neglect has gone on his watch over the last 12 years. He stood by and did nothing to stop the decline of Reston schools.

>>>Bump all of Navy to Oakton and there's room for Floris at Chantilly.<<<<

Navy is quite a hike to Oakton, but it works for me, and probably for them too.

If Floris goes to Chantilly, which good schools go to South Lakes? I'm assuming that McNair will go to South Lakes. What schools will balance McNair? Does it make sense to take Crossfield and/or Foxmill out of Oakton and send Navy to Oakton, when considering the distances?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can anyone tell me why voters in Reston vote for
> Stu Gibson? This neglect has gone on his watch
> over the last 12 years. He stood by and did
> nothing to stop the decline of Reston schools.

At least the Dems didn't endorse him in 2003 but the alternative wasn't viable. Can't beat an incumbent with a nobody.

Christine is impressive. Just wish she had run in 2003. Stu has the Dem endorsement this year. So she will have to overcome the coattail effect from the rest of the ticket benefiting Stu.

More Later

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Bump all of Navy to Oakton and there's room for
> Floris at Chantilly.<<<<
>
> Navy is quite a hike to Oakton, but it works for
> me, and probably for them too.
>
> If Floris goes to Chantilly, which good schools go
> to South Lakes? I'm assuming that McNair will go
> to South Lakes. What schools will balance McNair?
> Does it make sense to take Crossfield and/or
> Foxmill out of Oakton and send Navy to Oakton,
> when considering the distances?

the part of Mcnair now going to Westfield goes to Herndon and Aldrin goes to SL.

Or fox Mill goes to SL

Thomas, the democrats certainly did endorse Stu in 2003. They've endorsed him each time he ran. In 2003 he ran against a Arthur Purvis who was not endorsed by republicans. In 1999 Stu ran against a very nice black man, Tom Wilkins, an endorsed republican.


>>>Gibson, who is Democrat-endorsed.<<<
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34905-2003Oct29?language=printer

>>>the part of Mcnair now going to Westfield goes to Herndon and Aldrin goes to SL<<

That won't work for Herndon. If Aldrin is taken out, then another higher income school must replace them or Herndon's stats go down the drain. Plus, Aldrin is so small, it won't come close to enough students. But McNair and Aldrin to South Lakes would work, numbers wise, but would leave Herndon with too little enrollment.

Would it be viable to split Floris between Chantilly and Herndon?

I agree on Christine. She's a great candidate. But Restonians are so wedded to democrats, it will be difficult for her to prevail. If Restonians cared about the schools and their kids more than they cared about partisanship they'd vote for Christine. No one can argue that Stu has done anything for kids in Reston or Vienna, especially low income students.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Bump all of Navy to Oakton and there's room for
> Floris at Chantilly.<<<<
>
> Navy is quite a hike to Oakton, but it works for
> me, and probably for them too.
>
> If Floris goes to Chantilly, which good schools go
> to South Lakes? I'm assuming that McNair will go
> to South Lakes. What schools will balance McNair?
> Does it make sense to take Crossfield and/or
> Foxmill out of Oakton and send Navy to Oakton,
> when considering the distances?


Half of Navy already goes to Oakton....the remainder go to Franklin Middle and then on to Chanitlly. Navy is split amongst two pyramid's aready.

We are a Navy family .... Our neighborhood was changed from Oakton to Chantilly a number of years ago. There was a petition in the neighborhood to change due to the driving distance......I think. Before we had children in the school.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket Wrote:
> > Ok, I was wrong, I meant The Fields of Herndon
>
> Brand new construction. You have to make
> $35-40,000 to live here. Again a Kettler project.
>
> Whats the point, you object to any apartment house
> in your high school's attendance area.

Big Leap, by you. But no, I think that we ALL, including you, were trying to figure out where the 40% non-English speaking population at McNair lived.

As a matter of fact, large apt. complexes, a few condo communities and a trailer park or two attend our high school. And, we are fighting to stay.

No matter how diligent your condo/apartment buddies are, there are still many multiple families living w/in one unit in many of the county's condos. That is the only way some of these people can afford to live and serve our community. Sometimes what you are looking at on paper or screen, is not real life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 07:34AM by Cricket.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >>>Floris is almost exclusively sfd meaniing
> > politically active. Can't see those parents
> > accepting the longer bus ride readily.<<<
> >
> > A bus ride that is farther by ONE MILE? Not a
> > compelling argument.
>
> It is when Chantilly is much closer than either
> and part of the study area.
> Bump all of Navy to Oakton and there's room for
> Floris at Chantilly.
>
> And as I understand it most of Floris participates
> in CYA youth activities.


Moving Navy out of Chantilly does not make room for Floris. Only half or less of the Navy population goes to Chantilly. Those people don't want to go, they will fight it and have proofed successful in the past.


Neen wrote: If Floris goes to Chantilly, which good schools go to South Lakes? I'm assuming that McNair will go to South Lakes. What schools will balance McNair? Does it make sense to take Crossfield and/or Foxmill out of Oakton and send Navy to Oakton, when considering the distances?

If you listen to More, McNair is the good school that goes to SL.

And More wrote: "No Cricket is dead wrong. The vast majority of those multi-family unit are expensive and aimed at singles and couples without kids. Not a very large percentage of those units will ever have children. Average number of kids per multi-family housing unit just don't support this presumption. The School Board has this information and their ratios are over-estimating the amount of children generated by all housing types based on actual enrollments."

And I suppose it is these "singles and couples" with large disposable incomes that keep McNair from performing well. Until, we see you actually strolling through the McNair neighborhood and wandering the halls of the schools, your argument goes on deaf ears.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 07:33AM by Cricket.

Neen,
I find it interesting that you advocate sending McNair to SL, but advocate against sending McNair to Herndon will send it down the drain. Why do you want to send SL down the drain? This seems to be a common theme for you.

Also, you say Stu will do what he wants for his schools, then you say he will take the path of least resistance. Many of elementary schools involved are not in his district, so why will he knuckle under to them?

Thomas,
The map was sent to me by Connelly's office. It the the official map of FFX county that tracks affordable rental housing.

I don't think the apartments (Jefferson and Dulles Center) would be on this map if they weren't "affordable". Dulles Center is close to where Cricket sees lower income people around. So, I don't know who's right.

Word,
You speak with such authority and definitive statements--are you on the school board? You must be.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, the democrats certainly did endorse Stu in
> 2003. They've endorsed him each time he ran. In
> 2003 he ran against a Arthur Purvis who was not
> endorsed by republicans. In 1999 Stu ran against
> a very nice black man, Tom Wilkins, an endorsed
> republican.
>
>
> >>>Gibson, who is Democrat-endorsed.<<<
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34905-20
> 03Oct29?language=printer


My source for the lack of Dem endorsement in 2003 is the then chair of the Hunter Mill Dems '''They did not endorse because the old principal was still in place..

More Later

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>We are slowly coming back from years of neglect
> by this School system.<<<<
>
> Can anyone tell me why voters in Reston vote for
> Stu Gibson? This neglect has gone on his watch
> over the last 12 years. He stood by and did
> nothing to stop the decline of Reston schools.

Frankly, I am ready for a change. I'm not sure Stu has a much power as you think, though. To be fair to Stu, his predecessor, Lou Zone,was responsible for moving North Reston to Herndon and for not fighting to move Crossfield to our pyramid. Those two moves had more to do with declining fortunes at South Lakes.

I want everyone to know that my family had a wonderful experience at South Lakes. Both of my children were well-served by the school and I believe received quality educations there. They were never afraid, had wonderful friends, participated in as many sports, music, and other activities as they wanted, etc. They are both doing well in college and are prepared for the task. South Lakes has a wonderful Principal in Bruce Butler.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Thomas,
> The map was sent to me by Connelly's office. It
> the the official map of FFX county that tracks
> affordable rental housing.

I'm guessing that map is a marketing tool for employers to convince them that there is affordable housing for their employees which is a huge issue for corporations considering a relocation into FFX. It certainly would shows market rate housing but not the public housing in Herndon. Does it list Stonegate? Sycamore?

More Later

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas, the democrats certainly did endorse Stu in
> 2003. They've endorsed him each time he ran. In
> 2003 he ran against a Arthur Purvis who was not
> endorsed by republicans. In 1999 Stu ran against
> a very nice black man, Tom Wilkins, an endorsed
> republican.
>
>
> >>>Gibson, who is Democrat-endorsed.<<<
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34905-20
> 03Oct29?language=printer

Neen, Tom Wilkins is a very nice man, but for that race he was a Republican in Name Only. He is really very liberal and was associated with many powerful liberals in Reston. BTW, not everyone in Reston is liberal, at least not me. I'm a true-blue conservative. But I have to admit that the times I heard Christine, she was not very impressive, but rather emotional and seemed a little unhinged.

I'm voting for Christine, mainly because she talks about improving Reston schools and looking at curriculum issues, like why we don't use Phonics in reading instruction, and what is this Everyday Math? Fairfax is always too willing to jump on the latest educational technique without really looking at results. Whole Language? Come on--that that been discredited years ago, yet is still in place in FFX county.

I met Arakelian at another candidate forum. I have to say she was one of the most unlikeable people I have met - ever. Contradicted herself throughout. Attacked Stu Gibson personally in a very unprofessional way.

She also didn't seem to know what she stood for. She told the crowd (mostly eventual south lakes parents) she is for redistricting, yet has told other groups she is against it. Seems like she will tell you whatever you want to hear.

Oh, and she whined.

Comments on sl verity's comments - you grossly oversimplify and are missing the key points behind parent's concerns...speaking of terms of good versus bad - your terms - evinces a lack of regard for the facts and a concern for the 'right" thoughtful way to do things, irrespective of the result that may be reached. See the comments below


>>Anti-redistricting posters on this site have told me that:

-South Lakes is bad.

SOUTH LAKES IS NOT "BAD", BUT IT DOES HAVE RISK FACTORS, AND A SIGNIFICANT POPULATION SEGMENT THAT HAS LITTLE IN COMMON IN TERMS OF ACADEMIC NEEDS OR FOCUS WITH THE AVERAGE STUDENT AT OAKTON, MADISON, AND THE LIKE. INASMUCH AS SCHOOLS ONLY HAVE SO MUCH ENERGY AND RESOURCE, PARENTS ARE FAIRLY CONCERNED AS TO WHETHER THEIR CHILDREN'S ACADEMIC AND SOCIAL NEEDS WILL BE MET IN A WAY THAT IS SATISFACTORY TO THEM. FURTHER, GIVEN THAT IN GENERAL FAIRFAX COUNTY'S ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE IS AT BEST MEDIOCRE RELATIVE TO INCOME LEVELS, ANY RISK OF THOSE LEVELS DIMINISHING FURTHER IS AN EXTREME CAUSE FOR CONCERN. ALL OF THESE FACTORS PROVIDE FOR A SENSE OF ANXIETY - AND OVERCOMING THAT ANXIETY MEANS THAT SOUTH LAKES MUST, IN MY VIEW, ASSIDUOUSLY WORK TO MEET THE DEMANDS OF THE TRANSFEROR STUDENTS TO MAKE THE TRANSFER WORK? NOT NECESSARY, YOU SAY? WELL, IF SOUTH LAKES DOESN'T, THEY WON'T GET THE STUDENTS, IRRESPECTIVE OF ANY FORCED MARCH FOISTED UPON THE AFFECTED FAMILIES. NO FORCE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN SUBURBAN PARENTS ON A MISSION TO PRESERVE THEIR KIDS FUTURE. BLUNTLY PUT, SOUTH LAKES MUST PUT FORTH A SIGNIFICANT EFFORT TO MAKE IT WORK, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.

-IB is bad.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH AND THE STATEMENT REFLECTS A SIMPLISTIC WORLD VIEW. IB IS AN EXCELLENT PROGRAM - ESPECIALLY FOR TOP DRAWER STUDENTS WTIH THE CAPABILITY TO GET OVER 2100 ON THE SAT'S - IT IS JUST THAT ITS UTILITY TO THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENTS IN THE OAKTON/MADISON PROFILE. IB IS LESS FLEXIBLE THAN THE AP PROGRAM, IF ONLY BECAUSE THE SCORES CANNOT BE PROCESSED IN A TIMELY WAY THAT PERMITS STUDENTS TO ENGAGE MORE CONCRETELY IN COLLEGE AND CURRICULUM PLANNING. PUT ANECDOTALLY, A HANDFUL OF AP CLASSES IS OFTEN THE RIGHT DOSE OF MEDICINE FOR THE STUDENT MATRICULATING AT JMU, MARY WASHINGTON, VCU, ETC.

-AP is good.

NOT ALWAYS GOOD - BUT IT IS BETTER FOR THE AFFECTED POPULATION - SEE ABOVE - THE DEFENSIVENESS AND RESISTANCE TO MEETING LEGITIMATE STUDENT NEEDS IS BAFFLING.

-There will be no islands - Stu said, Janey said, etc, ad nauseum.

AN ABSTRACT SHIBBOLETH THAT MEANS LITTLE.

-Leave our schools alone.

THERE IS ALWAYS RESISTANCE TO CHANGE - THIS IS WHY A PROACTIVE APPROACH TO MAKE TRANSFERORS' FEEL CHALLENGED AND EXCITED IS NECESSARY.

-This is all about social engineering.

ABSOLUTELY IT IS. RACE, ABOVE ALL ELSE, IS THE BIGGEST DRIVING FACTORS IN OUR SCHOOLS - BAR NONE. NOTHING CONFOUNDS EDUCATORS MORE (OR RAISES THE SPECTER OF WHITE GUILT MORE) THAN THE PERSISTENT ACHIEVEMENT GAP - WHICH HAS TO DATE BEEN CONCERNED MOSTLY WITH BLACK STUDENT PERFORMANCE BUT WITH THE INFUSION OF SO MANY IMMIGRANTS FROM LATIN AMERICA, IT HAS TAKEN ON A HISPANIC CAST AS WELL. THE RACE PROBLEM HAS GENERATED UNTOLD MILLIONS, IF NOT BILLIONS, SPENT ON LITIGATION, BUSING, SCHOOL CONSTRUCTION, SPECIAL PROGRAMS OF EVERY CONCEIVABLE TYPE, AND WORST OF ALL, CONCOCTIONS LIKE WHOLE LANGUAGE READING AND FUZZY MATH AND A DUMBING DOWN OF CURRICULA. ANYONE WHO FAILS TO RECOGNIZE THE SIGNIFICANT ROLE RACE PLAYS IN THE SCHOOLS IS DELUSIONAL. TO BE FAIR, HISTORICALLY THIS COUNTRY'S TREATMENT OF BLACK CITIZENS HAS BEEN ABYSMAL - THE PROBLEM IS THE SOLUTIONS WE HAVE IMPOSED HAVE BY AND LARGE ONLY HAVE HAD MARGINAL BENEFIT - THE GAPS STILL EXIST - AND THE SOLUTIONS FRANKLY NOW APPEAR AFTER DECADES OF SOCIAL ENGINEERING TO LIE IN AMELIORATING CULTURAL FACTORS (WHICH SEEM MORE PERNICIOUS THAN GENETIC ONES) THAN ANYTHING ELSE - AND THIS TYPE OF CONCLUSION MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE WITH A LOT VESTED IN THE EXISTING SOCIAL WELFARE SCHEME UNCOMFORTABLE. PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO SPEAK BLUNTLY TO THE ISSUE ARE NOT RECEIVED EASILY OR WELL - BUT SO BE IT.

-Market forces are good.

NOT ALWAYS - MARKET FORCES ARE IN NO SENSE NATURAL IN THE ADAM SMITH SENSE - RULES AND A STRUCTURE OF POLITICAL ECONOMY MAKE FOR COMPETITION - BUT EMPIRICALLY ANY SYSTEM BENEFITS FROM COMPETITION - OFTEN LOTS OF IT - INCLUDING VIGOROUS COMPETITION FOR IDEAS. THE MORE APPOSITE QUESTION IS HOW TO MAKE VIBRANT COMPETITION PROSPER WITHIN LIMITS APPROPRIATE FOR A SCHOOL SYSTEM AND THE VARIOUS CONSTITUENTS THAT MAKE DEMANDS ON IT. BUT CERTAINLY AN INFUSION OF COMPETITION WITHIN REASON IS BENEFICIAL - AS MUCH AS THAT MAY IRRITATE BUREAUCRATS AND UNION MEMBERS. I FIND IT LAUGHABLE THAT SCHOOLS WILL PAY THOUSANDS TO SUPPORT SPORTS TEAMS TO ENGAGE IN VIBRANT COMPETITION WITH THE GOALS OF ENTERTAINING THE COMMUNITY AND PERMITTING ALL TOO MANY PARENTS TO LIVE VICARIOUSLY THROUGH THEIR OWN. BUT ANY MENTION OF COMPETITION WITH REGARD TO ACADEMICS - WHERE IT REALLY COUNTS IN AN EVER INCREASING KNOWLEDGE BASED ECONOMY IS FROWNED UPON FOR FEAR OF PUTTING PEOPLE UNDER PRESSURE OR CREATING STIGMAS. SILLY, ISNT' IT? LEARNING IS ABOUT SUSTAINING EGO DAMAGE AND BEING COMFORTABLE WITH COMPETING - LETS EMBRACE IT.

-Just leave us out of it.

AGAIN, PEOPLE ARE OFTEN RESISTANT TO CHANGE. MAKE THEM LESS SO BY A CONCERTED APPEAL TO EXCELLENCE.

-We paid taxes to live in this school district.<<

YOU ARE CORRECT TO POINT OUT THE MORAL HAZARDS OF LIVING IN FAIRFAX COUNTY - ONE CAN BE REDISTRICTED REALLY ON A WHIM - AND RELIANCE IN GOING TO ANY ONE SCHOOL IS MISPLACED. BUT PARENTS DO PAY CONSIDERABLE TAXES - AND THEY OUGHT TO BE TREATED AS VALUABLE CUSTOMERS IN THAT SENSE. ONE ALL TOO OFTEN GETS THE NOTION THAT THE AFFECTED STUDENTS IN THIS EXTANT CASE, IN THE QUEST TO MAKE NCLB NUMBERS (A PROGRAM I DISAGREE WITH, BY THE WAY), ARE PAWNS IN A NUMBERS GAME. NO QUESTION THAT ISSUE WEIGHS ON EVERYONE'S MIND WHEN IT COMES TO SOUTH LAKES AND THEIR DECLINE IN ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE.

________________________

Another question -

On the boundary link from the FCPS home page (http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/westcoboundary/faq.htm), there are a list of FAQs about the West County Boundary Study.

The response to the thirteenth question (they aren't numbered but you can count down...) regarding the Westfield addition contains this -

"An additional consideration is FCPS’ desire to establish a regional consortium of specialized and advanced high school courses and programs that were previously exclusive to centralized academies. This approach will allow FCPS to offer advanced academy-level programs at groups of high schools serving regions of the county rather than at specific schools serving the entire county. The consortium approach will reduce the travel time and distance and consequently the amount of lost instructional time for students enrolled in the academy programs. It should be noted that the renovation of South Lakes High School included specific facilities to support the implementation of this consortium concept and these specialized courses. "

To what is this referring? What specialized courses?

Quantum wrote,

BLUNTLY PUT, SOUTH LAKES MUST PUT FORTH A SIGNIFICANT EFFORT TO MAKE IT WORK, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.


Do you have some specific "significant effort"? To what are you referring?

Quantum wrote

IB is bad.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH AND THE STATEMENT REFLECTS A SIMPLISTIC WORLD VIEW. IB IS AN EXCELLENT PROGRAM - ESPECIALLY FOR TOP DRAWER STUDENTS WTIH THE CAPABILITY TO GET OVER 2100 ON THE SAT'S - IT IS JUST THAT ITS UTILITY TO THE MAJORITY OF THE STUDENTS IN THE OAKTON/MADISON PROFILE. IB IS LESS FLEXIBLE THAN THE AP PROGRAM, IF ONLY BECAUSE THE SCORES CANNOT BE PROCESSED IN A TIMELY WAY THAT PERMITS STUDENTS TO ENGAGE MORE CONCRETELY IN COLLEGE AND CURRICULUM PLANNING. PUT ANECDOTALLY, A HANDFUL OF AP CLASSES IS OFTEN THE RIGHT DOSE OF MEDICINE FOR THE STUDENT MATRICULATING AT JMU, MARY WASHINGTON, VCU, ETC.


We have discussed IB. Most kids I know at SL do take " a handful" of IB classes, just like AP, mixed with Honors classes. Not sure why you can't accept this. Also, Thomas' experiences are only one. Other people have posted they don't have a problem with timing of results.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 01:06PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

IB SUCKS so does STUpid Gibson and Kathy Smith DEMOcrats

I don't care what color the kids are at any school mine would attend. (Actually, any school without some diversity makes me uneasy). In my opinion, the academic achievement and the well-being of any student body lands squarely in one group's lap: the parents! Show me a community of parents who take an obsessive interest in their children's academics, value-system and social well-being, and you'll find schools with great test scores, low drop-out rates, and safe students. These are the families that think and act like me, and with whom I want my kids to be educated. These are black, white, Asian, Indian, and Korean families. If communities are to be redistricted, please send the kids of willing families to my school who want a better future for their kids. I keep reading that some think just the opposite will be a better approach...send motivated families kids to underachieving schools. How will this help the parents of the underachieving kids change their ways? This must be some kind of mistake. What idiots would take an approach like that?

What? You don't think you'll find that at South Lakes? Geesh. This might be the most offensive post I have seen yet.


Show me a community of parents who take an obsessive interest in their children's academics, value-system and social well-being, and you'll find schools with great test scores, low drop-out rates, and safe students. These are the families that think and act like me, and with whom I want my kids to be educated. These are black, white, Asian, Indian, and Korean families

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
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>
> We have discussed IB. Most kids I know at SL do
> take " a handful" of IB classes, just like AP,
> mixed with Honors classes. Not sure why you can't
> accept this. Also, Thomas' experiences are only
> one. Other people have posted they don't have a
> problem with timing of results.


Re: Quantum's previous comments and others about IB/AP and pupil placing. Bruce Butler has specifically said to a group of 7 of my neighbors who I will get to post, if necessary, (in effect this isn't hearsay) - that he would add AP classes but needed the numbers of students to do so. In other words, he needs the volume of transferors who would be interested in adding AP classes to actually add AP. With the current population of 1400, he cannot afford to have both programs - but with 500-700 more kids he will.

Old timer,
Yes, please get them to post! When was this said? Was it a meeting of some type?

xxoo Wrote:
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> What? You don't think you'll find that at South Lakes? Geesh.
> This might be the most offensive post I have seen yet.

xoxo, I'm sure there are many good families at South Lakes. 79% of them to be exact. They other 21% for some reason accept that their children don't finish high school.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
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> Old timer,
> Yes, please get them to post! When was this said?
> Was it a meeting of some type?

This was at a meeting of 7 parents and Bruce this summer (it was the last week of July as we were out of town and couldn't attend). They are all parents of elementary students who requested a meeting of him as they knew the boundary issues were coming up. They wanted to understand his commitment to the school, his philosophy, as it is our pyramid school.

We are all suburban parents with an "obsessive interest in their children's academics, value-system and social well-being." We are all VERY ACTIVE AND COMMITTED in our neighborhood, our elementary school, and want a "community" school where our kids will spend 4 years with others with our same values. They requested the meeting and he spent quite a while with them. They all came away very impressed with him, his commitment to the students, and his desire to change the reputation of South Lakes. They pushed him on marketing the school more effectively.

I will get them to post. Effectively he said he would love to add AP classes with the caveat that he will not duplicate what he has in IB. The classes would have to supplement the IB curriculum. He said he would need enough "numbers" to justify it.

South Lakes, when did I advocate that McNair go to South Lakes? I think that would be disastrous for South Lakes, but I am a realist too. Once the election is over, the politicians will take the path of least resistance. Also, Stu is very quick to say that scores don't matter and affirmative action is very important, more diversity is better, according to him. It will be very difficult for him to now argue that McNair shouldn't go to South Lakes. Community groups will throw McNair into South Lakes in a minute, to prevent their communities from going to South Lakes. What happens when 90% of the community groups vote to send McNair? I have never said that I want McNair to go there, but if one of the goals is reducing numbers at Westfield, McNair has to go to either Herndon or South Lakes. I think it will be South Lakes because Janie will not allow it to go to Herndon, Stu has no real argument for not taking it into South Lakes and community groups will support that move. Just my opinion. Your opinions may vary.

Thomas More,
Your source is wrong, the democrats endorsed Stu Gibson each time he ran. I can't imagine why a democrat would claim otherwise. Oh wait, I take that back. I can understand why a democrat would not want to claim Stu Gibson but I an assure you that he was endorsed by democrats in his last three elections. It has been something of a problem for him since he is covered under the Hatch act.

weliketorapallthetime Wrote:
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> xxoo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What? You don't think you'll find that at South
> Lakes? Geesh.
> > This might be the most offensive post I have
> seen yet.
>
> xoxo, I'm sure there are many good families at
> South Lakes. 79% of them to be exact. They other
> 21% for some reason accept that their children
> don't finish high school.



And when 500-700 students from good families are added - these numbers will obviously change to about 90%/10%.

Those same underclass students exist at all schools (title I) except Langley, Lake Braddock, Woodson, and Madison - they have no title 1 schools. Even Oakton has Mosby Woods. Most schools don't have such a small percentage of good families, you're 79%, to balance out the 21%. But because of poor redistricting of previous school boards, those balance populations were moved to Oakton and Herndon...

South Lakes Parent said:
>>>I'm voting for Christine, mainly because she talks about improving Reston schools and looking at curriculum issues, like why we don't use Phonics in reading instruction, and what is this Everyday Math? Fairfax is always too willing to jump on the latest educational technique without really looking at results. Whole Language? Come on--that that been discredited years ago, yet is still in place in FFX county.<<<

FINALLY something we totally agree on! And Stu LOVES that whole language thing. He's supported it every step of his career. And he also very much supported that horrible Everyday Math, over the protests of black groups and parents. It's terrible for kids whose parents can't afford math tutors to teach their kids real math or take them to Kumon math on Saturdays.

I live for the day when FCPS starts a new program that has been shown to work, with REAL research, and not just some educrat fad that they FEEL will work and that 'staff just loves'.

>>>I met Arakelian at another candidate forum. I have to say she was one of the most unlikeable people I have met - ever. Contradicted herself throughout. Attacked Stu Gibson personally in a very unprofessional way.

She also didn't seem to know what she stood for. She told the crowd (mostly eventual south lakes parents) she is for redistricting, yet has told other groups she is against it. Seems like she will tell you whatever you want to hear.

Oh, and she whined.<<<

HI STU!!! Does your office know that you post here during the day????

You really should knock off the sighing and whining during your debates. Picking your nose is also out, it's just not attractive in public. I know it's a shock to you to be running against a real candidate, but, please, stop with the juvenile posts. In debates please stop the grunting and groaning, the eye rolling, the fake squints, the snorts, and the nose picking. They all make you look ridiculous.

Quantum,
I agree with everything you say, your posts are fabulous. On NCLB we disagree. It is not driving these changes, rather the liberals are using it as an excuse to do their desired social engineering. If the democrats continue to dominate our school board I expect that in the next 4 years we will see ALL of our high schools redistricted to meet their social engineering goals. Of course there is ZERO evidence that putting a smart, hard working, Asian child in a class next to a an under achieving Black child, improves the education of either. NONE. Typical of the democrats, they refuse to believe that, because they FEEL it SHOULD work, much as they FEEL about Whole Language, and ever fuzzier math, and the wonderful 'open schools' that they built in the 1970's and 1980's that gave us South Lakes, with no outside windows and no interior doors.

Don't they ever get sick of being wrong?

Neen:

Please get some rest. You are acting...........batty.

And please knock of that whacky punctuation (Uppercase/lowercase) stuff. It makes me seasick.

Neen,
What is Kumon Math?

The consortium is in place but means little. Each consortium has 4 or 5 schools, with an IB program in each, and academy (vocational programs) in one of the schools, Latin classes in at least one, ASM in one, and Multivariable caluculus in one school. However, many of the schools that are supposed to have the advanced math do not have it yet. Students can take classes at one of the other schools in their consortium if they have their own transportation and can work out their schedules to accommodate the classes.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
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> Old timer,
> Yes, please get them to post! When was this said?
> Was it a meeting of some type?

Butler said this at the last PTA mtg.

More Later

SLverity,
I suggest you give Christine a second look. Listen to her now, or call her on the phone. I think you'll be impressed. I totally agree that in the beginning she spoke too much about her own problems with her son in FCPS. Now she's much more focused on the community and what the schools need, particularly the low performing schools. She's seen the stats, she knows what has happened and what needs to be fixed. She's more than willing to listen to the community, something that voters haven't had in Hunter Mill for 12 years.

Stu could have changed things in Reston schools. He had 12 years to get real reading programs, real math programs, programs that have worked in 11 other districts in Virginia, and other parts of FCPS. He did nothing, because of ideology. His ideology came first, over the needs of students in his district. The results speak for themselves when we see other low income schools over coming their problems while Dogwood and McNair remain on the bottom.