Revelation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Kim Farrell, Vienna
>
> An angry mom who wanted taxpayers to keep bussing
> her kids long distances to Wolftrap, Thoreau and
> Madison when Sunrise Valley, Hughes and South
> Lakes were much closer to her house. Hardly
> someone who can preach about the virtues of
> "community schools" and sound financial
> management, when she wanted the rest of us to keep
> paying to send her kids sent to far away schools.
> Her lawsuit failed, but she keeps writing letters.
> Big deal.

"FARRELL ","KIM ","M","049"," 1313","CHAMBERLAIN WOODS ","WY","VIENNA ","VA","04/23/2009","FAIL OBEY HWY SIGN

Just an angry old lady who would disagree with the Board if they declared the sky is blue and the grass is green.

Sad.

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

Liz Bradsher is back! Her new performance will be entitled "Southwestern Boundary Study" and will be showing at a PTA near you very soon.

It is difficult yet to understand the nature of what is going on here. Tina Hone seems to underscore this by stating that the Board did not articulate a compelling rationale for their actions. I guess, at least according Ugh, that makes her "intellectually false" - as if engaging in fair inductive inquiry is somehow intellectually false. But why is this so difficult? The Board should let everyone know what drove this decision, warts and all. This won't be the first school closing decision, and certainly there will be lots of redistricting decisions as well.

Ugh's inputs are actually illuminating and reflective of why it is difficult to get honest answers about the schools. Someone asks questions with a modicum of complexity. They then get slammed for "pontificating". Of course, no substantive rebuttal is made. Others, however, agree with the call for honest discourse, which makes Ugh (who to my mind reflects the mindset of many of the bureaucrats) anxious, because Ugh doesn't want to look like a total idiot. The remaining Ugh responses - contain no meaningful facts, no recognition for further inquiry, nothing but defensiveness and ad hominem attacks. And of course, betraying a limited education, Ugh conflates the notion of honest inductive inquiry with intellectual falsity.

So we still don't know what drove the decision here. I would have limited sympathy for supporters of the Clifton schools if the School Board was really honest - explaining why it is they had to make this tough decision. But they haven't. And the real problem is, susceptible to proof or not, the Board leaves a lingering thought that the decision is somehow an assault on success. Fair? Perhaps not. But there are pockets of parents in the County who strongly believe that the schools should be about excellence and social mobility, and they will not be satisfied with tepid or bureaucratic answers.

LizzieIsBack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liz Bradsher is back! Her new performance will
> be entitled "Southwestern Boundary Study" and will
> be showing at a PTA near you very soon.


Yep. She is scheduled to be at Clifton ES PTA meeting on the 13th. Since anyone who has been watching this process for any length of time realizes, she doesn't care about the children so that only leaves a couple of possibilities of why she is going to Clifton:

1. Political "show" to just be able to say that she went there.
2. Hoping there might be some other fools still remaining that still might believe anything she says.
3. Play the victim to the Press and other School Board Members by trying to make it look like Clifton ES parents are saying mean things to her because they are angry their school has been slatted for closure even though many do not feel a valid reason has been given.

Politics, politics, politics..... Can't hardly wait until the next election which is barely more than a year away and to vote this loser out of office.

Here are the reasons for closing Clifton spelled out in the FCPS release:

"Fairfax County Public Schools (FCPS) facilities staff members recommended
that Clifton Elementary be closed, rather than renovated, due to a number of
reasons, including:

• The unique topographical challenges of the Clifton Elementary School site
will result in higher than normal renovation costs.

• Enrollment is projected to decline from the current 369 students to a
projected 298 students in 2015.

• Due to the higher than normal construction costs, and the low student
enrollment, the cost per student to renovate the school will be much greater
than other recent renovations, estimated at a cost per student of $35,287
(versus a current renovation at a similar sized school of a cost per student of
approximately $24,740)."

Sorry if this question has already been asked and answered:

Who owns the Clifton Elementary School building and land? Is FCPS or Fairfax County looking at the possibility of selling it?

And:

Liz B is making an appearance at Clifton Elementary? For real? Is this to prove she can take the tough stuff this area and the parents here dish out? That kind of attitude is so unattractive.

Thank you, RealFacts, for posting the fact that Clifton ES' enrollment is higher this year. The New Student Orientation held just prior to the school's opening was standing room only and was not just comprised of kindergarten students. There is still new construction going on in the Clifton ES boundaries as some land parcels are divided up, bringing even more families with young children to the area.

Qualum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here are the reasons for closing Clifton spelled
> out in the FCPS release:
>
> "Fairfax County Public Schools (FCPS) facilities
> staff members recommended
> that Clifton Elementary be closed, rather than
> renovated, due to a number of
> reasons, including:
>
> • The unique topographical challenges of the
> Clifton Elementary School site
> will result in higher than normal renovation
> costs.
>
> • Enrollment is projected to decline from the
> current 369 students to a
> projected 298 students in 2015.
>
> • Due to the higher than normal construction
> costs, and the low student
> enrollment, the cost per student to renovate the
> school will be much greater
> than other recent renovations, estimated at a cost
> per student of $35,287
> (versus a current renovation at a similar sized
> school of a cost per student of
> approximately $24,740)."


It's too bad the FCPS release wasn't based on valid data. Even some of the Board Members didn't believe it which is why, for example, Martina Hone would not vote to close the school. Turns out she was right as enrollment is not declining. Plus, the devil is in the details. Their renovation costs included things like a fancy new stage, etc. that are not necessary. However, the general public does not look close at those things and they know that. Instead, they believe all the Press Releases.

hettie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And:
>
> Liz B is making an appearance at Clifton
> Elementary? For real? Is this to prove she can
> take the tough stuff this area and the parents
> here dish out? That kind of attitude is so
> unattractive.


It's probably as complicated as trying to find an answer to why criminals return to the scene of the crime....

If Clifton parents want to keep their school open, they can petition for the creation of a small tax district to raise the needed money. Otherwise, they're just asking taxpayers in the rest of the county to subsidize their little enclave.

Why don't they just assign the Bunnyman as their spokesperson?

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't they just assign the Bunnyman as their
> spokesperson?

I'm sure the former residents of Midgetville are looking for something to do as well.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Clifton parents want to keep their school open,
> they can petition for the creation of a small tax
> district to raise the needed money. Otherwise,
> they're just asking taxpayers in the rest of the
> county to subsidize their little enclave.


So, then, you are against community schools?

FCS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If Clifton parents want to keep their school
> open,
> > they can petition for the creation of a small
> tax
> > district to raise the needed money. Otherwise,
> > they're just asking taxpayers in the rest of
> the
> > county to subsidize their little enclave.
>
>
> So, then, you are against community schools?

No, that would be Kim Farrell, who says now she's in favor of "community schools," but wanted to keep bussing her kids all the way to Wolftrap and Thoreau when Sunrise Valley and Hughes were much closer.

I guess it all depends on whose "community" these folks want to belong to.

FFX County School Admin does what it wants - period.

Certain public schools in Fairfax County are controlled by the parents to a large extent and are really more like publicly funded private schools. Waynewood Elementary (just north of Fort Hunt) is one example. Parents buy into the notion that those schools have that extra special environment (in other words, only the "right" sort of minorities) that will help their little Connor, Kaitlin, or Brody get to Brown or Yale.

In this case, Clifton does not appear to have behaved that way. I'm not a Clifton parent or property owner, but it seems that Fairfax County School Board has badly bungled this situation. Clifton students, staff and parents have been thrown under the school bus in the name of FCPS "we know what's best for everyone." There's an astonishing amount of arrogance in the way they have conducted this entire process.

fact Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Certain public schools in Fairfax County are
> controlled by the parents to a large extent and
> are really more like publicly funded private
> schools. Waynewood Elementary (just north of Fort
> Hunt) is one example. Parents buy into the notion
> that those schools have that extra special
> environment (in other words, only the "right" sort
> of minorities) that will help their little Connor,
> Kaitlin, or Brody get to Brown or Yale.

I still haven't figured that one out yet. They still have to go to Sandburg and West Potomac, so what good is that little whitebread enclave?

FCS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If Clifton parents want to keep their school open,
> > they can petition for the creation of a small tax
> > district to raise the needed money. Otherwise,
> > they're just asking taxpayers in the rest of
> > the county to subsidize their little enclave.
>
> So, then, you are against community schools?

Not unless the community wants other folks not in the community to pay for the schools. Why are you against communities helping themselves without being subsidized by the government (I thought Clifton was a GOP hotbed)?

formerhick76 Wrote:
> I still haven't figured that one out yet. They
> still have to go to Sandburg and West Potomac, so
> what good is that little whitebread enclave?

Could be like some of the elementaries in City of Alexandria or DC where parents often send their kids to the local public elementary and switch to private at middle school.

Or could be that they expect their kids will be in advanced classes by middle/high school, so it doesn't bother them that there may be other kids at Sandburg and West Potomac who may not do as well. They may also think a kid who does well at WestPo has an advantage getting into U.Va or W&M compared to a similar candidate from Madison.

Old Townizen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could be like some of the elementaries in City of
> Alexandria or DC where parents often send their
> kids to the local public elementary and switch to
> private at middle school.

True. Although I'm surprised folks living in the Wilson HS zone in DC would do this. I mean, don't they have the same feeling of snobbery as Fairfax folks who live in the Langley zone might have?

> Or could be that they expect their kids will be in
> advanced classes by middle/high school, so it
> doesn't bother them that there may be other kids
> at Sandburg and West Potomac who may not do as
> well. They may also think a kid who does well at
> WestPo has an advantage getting into U.Va or W&M
> compared to a similar candidate from Madison.

This is also true. I suspect most of the increased violence at the low-end schools is "thug on thug" and the college-track kids are not bullied any more than they would be at the high end schools.

formerhick76 Wrote:
> True. Although I'm surprised folks living in the
> Wilson HS zone in DC would do this. I mean, don't
> they have the same feeling of snobbery as Fairfax
> folks who live in the Langley zone might have?
>
> This is also true. I suspect most of the increased
> violence at the low-end schools is "thug on thug"
> and the college-track kids are not bullied any
> more than they would be at the high end schools.

Lots of parents in the Wilson HS district will send their kids to Mann, Murch, Janney, Key, Lafayette, Eaton or Oyster ES, but not Deal MS/Wilson HS.

The increased violence at some schools is primarily an issue at the middle school level, when the thug kids will beat on anyone they happen not to like that day. By high school, these kids often have either calmed down or flunked out.

Old Townizen, you make some very good points.

Waynewood Elementary parents drove out a couple principals some years ago.

If Clifton parents want to keep their school open, they can petition for the creation of a small tax district to raise the needed money. Otherwise, they're just asking taxpayers in the rest of the county to subsidize their little enclave.


This is not possible in a Dillon Rule state like Virginia. If it were possible, it would have been done long ago.

Why do anything to Clifton? Let them live with there crappy old school!

If Clifton ES is underenrolled and nearby schools are overcrowded, why not just extend the Clifton boundary, pay a little more in transportation costs and shift kids to Clifton ES?? Win-win situation - if Clifton ES is as good as they say it is, more kids can benefit, transportation costs must be lower than building an entirely new school and/or sending all of the Clifton ES students to new schools, and Clifton ES stays open.

Why isn't this an option?? This sounds like the most common sense thing to me. Why increase overcrowding at area schools by shutting down an underenrolled school? If the other area schools were underenrolled, THEN I can see the logic in shutting down Clifton ES, but that's not the case.

NewToClifton's idea makes a lot of sense. I like it.


Maybe it would upset FCPS School Board to do something that makes sense.

NewToClifton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Clifton ES is underenrolled and nearby schools
> are overcrowded, why not just extend the Clifton
> boundary, pay a little more in transportation
> costs and shift kids to Clifton ES?? Win-win
> situation - if Clifton ES is as good as they say
> it is, more kids can benefit, transportation costs
> must be lower than building an entirely new school
> and/or sending all of the Clifton ES students to
> new schools, and Clifton ES stays open.
>
> Why isn't this an option?? This sounds like the
> most common sense thing to me. Why increase
> overcrowding at area schools by shutting down an
> underenrolled school? If the other area schools
> were underenrolled, THEN I can see the logic in
> shutting down Clifton ES, but that's not the case.

The schools that are seriously overcrowded, like Powell and Eagle View, aren't especially close to Clifton. You'd have to do a lot more redistricting that affects more students if you want to relieve overcrowding at those schools by taking advantage of the surplus capacity at Clifton, and you'd still end up paying extra in transportation costs. Believe it or not, not everyone would jump for joy at the prospect of sending their child to a school in an old building that is far away from their house.

Believe it or not, not everyone in Clifton is jumping for joy over the closure of their community school.

Reality Checker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Believe it or not, not
> everyone would jump for joy at the prospect of
> sending their child to a school in an old building
> that is far away from their house.

The water is contaminated also, they've been trucking in bottled water the last few years.

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

really Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Believe it or not, not everyone in Clifton is
> jumping for joy over the closure of their
> community school.

I believe it. So they should make their case that the school shouldn't be closed, not suggest the best solution is to disrupt the lives of people in other attendance areas.

If you look at this study, you will see just how scared FCPS is of disrupting the lives of people in attendance areas. They would rather have some schools operating way below capacity and spend money on trailers at others instead of "disrupt lives". It is clear that FCPS does not want to "disrupt lives".

http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/annandalestudy/facilitiesanalysisreport.pdf

No can do Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Clifton parents want to keep their school open,
> they can petition for the creation of a small tax
> district to raise the needed money. Otherwise,
> they're just asking taxpayers in the rest of the
> county to subsidize their little enclave.
>
>
> This is not possible in a Dillon Rule state like
> Virginia. If it were possible, it would have been
> done long ago.

The McLean Community Center is funded through a Small Tax District, and there is a similar district for things in Reston.

http://www.mcleancenter.org/contact/who.asp

Colonial Beach and West Point are Towns that set up their own school systems, so there is some precedent. We also have the Lexington Public Schools which are only K-8, then feed into Rockbridge County HS for 9-12. If the Town of Clifton expanded to cover the current attendance zone of Clifton Elementary, this could be done w/o a problem.

There is no reason why the Clifton Public Schools cannot reach some sort of agreement with FCPS regarding funding, etc., and CPS would just need to levy a surcharge on top of the regular property taxes.

Now, all this would have to receive approval from folks in the CPS zone, from at least the FFX Board of Supervisors, and finally the state legislature.

I suspect the rednecks from downstate will throw a tantrum even though this won't affect the flow of money to their schools and roads. Why? Because it's the upstate commies who want it.

FCPS has been disrupting lives for a long time - I saw it happen in the 80s with the closures of Wilton Woods ES and Fort Hunt HS.

I can understand closing a school due to low enrollment, but closing one and then adding to overcrowding by the closure? That doesn't make sense. There has to be some political/money/throwing money at contractors reason behind these decisions.

NewToClifton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS has been disrupting lives for a long time - I
> saw it happen in the 80s with the closures of
> Wilton Woods ES and Fort Hunt HS.
>
> I can understand closing a school due to low
> enrollment, but closing one and then adding to
> overcrowding by the closure? That doesn't make
> sense. There has to be some
> political/money/throwing money at contractors
> reason behind these decisions.


FCPS own Feasibility Report said that building additions on multiple schools was the most expensive option. Taxpayers are foolishly believing that closing Clifton is going to save money and they seem to be using the affluent nature of SOME of the homes in Clifton to try to pit communities against each other and get them to buy into the notion that it is somehow going to save money. It's sounds like they some of the School Board Members are operating like many other politicians in the US. Maybe their new program should just be called "No Child Left with a Dime."

NewToClifton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCPS has been disrupting lives for a long time - I
> saw it happen in the 80s with the closures of
> Wilton Woods ES and Fort Hunt HS.
>
> I can understand closing a school due to low
> enrollment, but closing one and then adding to
> overcrowding by the closure? That doesn't make
> sense. There has to be some
> political/money/throwing money at contractors
> reason behind these decisions.


Doesn't FCPS have a bunch of their own staff that do nothing but work on bids/proposals/inspections, etc? Could all of this new building they are trying to do be away to not have to cut more administrative staff? Wonder how many staff jobs are actually associated in one way or another with all of these new building projects? Do they constantly have to keep new projects in the works? Aren't they getting ready to finish up other projects like South County Middle School, etc.?

MoreQuestions Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NewToClifton Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FCPS has been disrupting lives for a long time -
> I
> > saw it happen in the 80s with the closures of
> > Wilton Woods ES and Fort Hunt HS.
> >
> > I can understand closing a school due to low
> > enrollment, but closing one and then adding to
> > overcrowding by the closure? That doesn't make
> > sense. There has to be some
> > political/money/throwing money at contractors
> > reason behind these decisions.
>
>
> Doesn't FCPS have a bunch of their own staff that
> do nothing but work on bids/proposals/inspections,
> etc? Could all of this new building they are
> trying to do be away to not have to cut more
> administrative staff? Wonder how many staff jobs
> are actually associated in one way or another with
> all of these new building projects? Do they
> constantly have to keep new projects in the works?
> Aren't they getting ready to finish up other
> projects like South County Middle School, etc.?


Exactly - there are old crappy schools all over Fairfax County (and didn't someone mention that local businesses would donate the water to Clifton, thereby fixing the water issue?). Clifton ES just happens to be a good target since it's underenrolled, but yet we're building new schools, adding on to existing schools (at least one elementary school in the eastern part of the county was due to get an addition built on soon), etc. Why not shift boundaries like before? The kids in Virginia Hills have been doing that for 20 plus years - first they went to Hayfield, then they got sent to Twain and Edison, and now they're back at Hayfield.

NotDuped Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to try to
> pit communities against each other

Not against each other, everyone is down on Clifton. and we are all having a hoot watching you rich white crackers get your panties all in a wad with your air of entitlement.

Oh, except for that old troublesome biyotch from Vienna, she is on your side.

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

Anyone wonder if they need more "diversity" in Clifton to qualify for federal $ they get everywhere else?
Just rezone and roll the dice again

Does anyone on this thread realize that massive boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax, Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas are coming. No school will be left untouched out of the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at up to 6 elementary schools to drive their program capacity up to the magic 950 student population. Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible addition" list only because of the closure of Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued that Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at Powell and Centreville, but it actually will be closer to some Clifton students than other schools.

Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that goes to Woodson will be looked over quite hard based on today's work session discussions of the School Board.

The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a vote in February on the boundary/build changes required. And if you think any level of logical thought other than socioeconomic engineering is going into this....think again.

FairTax Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone on this thread realize that massive
> boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas are
> coming. No school will be left untouched out of
> the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at up
> to 6 elementary schools to drive their program
> capacity up to the magic 950 student population.
> Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> addition" list only because of the closure of
> Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued that
> Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at Powell
> and Centreville, but it actually will be closer to
> some Clifton students than other schools.
>
> Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that goes
> to Woodson will be looked over quite hard based on
> today's work session discussions of the School
> Board.
>
> The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a vote
> in February on the boundary/build changes
> required. And if you think any level of logical
> thought other than socioeconomic engineering is
> going into this....think again.

And by keeping your schools open and avoid bringing poor folks into "your" schools, you're trying your own brand of socio-economic engineering.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FairTax Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anyone on this thread realize that massive
> > boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> > Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas are
> > coming. No school will be left untouched out
> of
> > the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at
> up
> > to 6 elementary schools to drive their program
> > capacity up to the magic 950 student population.
>
> > Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> > addition" list only because of the closure of
> > Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued
> that
> > Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at
> Powell
> > and Centreville, but it actually will be closer
> to
> > some Clifton students than other schools.
> >
> > Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that
> goes
> > to Woodson will be looked over quite hard based
> on
> > today's work session discussions of the School
> > Board.
> >
> > The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a
> vote
> > in February on the boundary/build changes
> > required. And if you think any level of
> logical
> > thought other than socioeconomic engineering is
> > going into this....think again.
>
> And by keeping your schools open and avoid
> bringing poor folks into "your" schools, you're
> trying your own brand of socio-economic
> engineering.


Either way, the end result will likely be voter re-rengineering. If Kathy Smith or Liz Bradsher (or any of the Ad Hoc Members) really believe they can make a decision on this boundary change that is going to effect this many schools just before their election year and not have it impact whether or not they get elected again, than they are more arrogant and out-of-touch with reality than anyone realizes.

NotDuped Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FairTax Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Does anyone on this thread realize that
> massive
> > > boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> > > Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas
> are
> > > coming. No school will be left untouched out
> > of
> > > the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at
> > up
> > > to 6 elementary schools to drive their
> program
> > > capacity up to the magic 950 student
> population.
> >
> > > Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> > > addition" list only because of the closure of
> > > Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued
> > that
> > > Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at
> > Powell
> > > and Centreville, but it actually will be
> closer
> > to
> > > some Clifton students than other schools.
> > >
> > > Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that
> > goes
> > > to Woodson will be looked over quite hard
> based
> > on
> > > today's work session discussions of the
> School
> > > Board.
> > >
> > > The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a
> > vote
> > > in February on the boundary/build changes
> > > required. And if you think any level of
> > logical
> > > thought other than socioeconomic engineering
> is
> > > going into this....think again.
> >
> > And by keeping your schools open and avoid
> > bringing poor folks into "your" schools, you're
> > trying your own brand of socio-economic
> > engineering.
>
>
> Either way, the end result will likely be voter
> re-rengineering. If Kathy Smith or Liz Bradsher
> (or any of the Ad Hoc Members) really believe they
> can make a decision on this boundary change that
> is going to effect this many schools just before
> their election year and not have it impact whether
> or not they get elected again, than they are more
> arrogant and out-of-touch with reality than anyone
> realizes.


Good! Voters are already going to be going to the polls angry and sick of incumbents so let these Board Members add fuel to the fire at the local level. Bring it on!

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FairTax Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anyone on this thread realize that massive
> > boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> > Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas are
> > coming. No school will be left untouched out
> of
> > the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at
> up
> > to 6 elementary schools to drive their program
> > capacity up to the magic 950 student population.
>
> > Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> > addition" list only because of the closure of
> > Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued
> that
> > Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at
> Powell
> > and Centreville, but it actually will be closer
> to
> > some Clifton students than other schools.
> >
> > Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that
> goes
> > to Woodson will be looked over quite hard based
> on
> > today's work session discussions of the School
> > Board.
> >
> > The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a
> vote
> > in February on the boundary/build changes
> > required. And if you think any level of
> logical
> > thought other than socioeconomic engineering is
> > going into this....think again.
>
> And by keeping your schools open and avoid
> bringing poor folks into "your" schools, you're
> trying your own brand of socio-economic
> engineering.


Instead of the communities arguing with each other, it sure would be nice if the real issue was addressed. Instead of FCPS spending so much money on administration and protecting their own jobs, they should spend it on the schools and the students.

Games Wrote:

>
> Instead of the communities arguing with each
> other, it sure would be nice if the real issue was
> addressed. Instead of FCPS spending so much
> money on administration and protecting their own
> jobs, they should spend it on the schools and the
> students.



This makes sense. FCPS School Board has operated in this outdated manner because the different sections squabble with the others over the pieces of pie. Less administration, more direct accountability to the community will benefit the students and teachers in the classroom.

FairTax Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone on this thread realize that massive
> boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas are
> coming. No school will be left untouched out of
> the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at up
> to 6 elementary schools to drive their program
> capacity up to the magic 950 student population.
> Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> addition" list only because of the closure of
> Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued that
> Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at Powell
> and Centreville, but it actually will be closer to
> some Clifton students than other schools.
>
> Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that goes
> to Woodson will be looked over quite hard based on
> today's work session discussions of the School
> Board.
>
> The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a vote
> in February on the boundary/build changes
> required. And if you think any level of logical
> thought other than socioeconomic engineering is
> going into this....think again.


They might as well be slapping taxpayers in the face with the disregard they are showing for public input. They are going to be affecting SO MANY residents and yet this is how they plan on shoving it through:

The community engagement process will be completed before these critical dates:
•
January 20, 2011 – Boundary recommendations introduced as new business at the regular School Board meeting
•
February 7 and 8 – Public hearings (plus February 9, if needed)
•
February 14 – School Board work session
•
February 24 – School Board decision on Southwest county boundaries

WAKE UP FAIRFAX COUNTY!!!!!

WakeUP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> WAKE UP FAIRFAX COUNTY!!!!!


I'm wide awake, but not drinking the (contaminated) Clifton Koolaid.


Board the place up already!

WakeUP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FairTax Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anyone on this thread realize that massive
> > boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> > Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas are
> > coming. No school will be left untouched out
> of
> > the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at
> up
> > to 6 elementary schools to drive their program
> > capacity up to the magic 950 student population.
>
> > Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> > addition" list only because of the closure of
> > Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued
> that
> > Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at
> Powell
> > and Centreville, but it actually will be closer
> to
> > some Clifton students than other schools.
> >
> > Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that
> goes
> > to Woodson will be looked over quite hard based
> on
> > today's work session discussions of the School
> > Board.
> >
> > The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a
> vote
> > in February on the boundary/build changes
> > required. And if you think any level of
> logical
> > thought other than socioeconomic engineering is
> > going into this....think again.
>
>
> They might as well be slapping taxpayers in the
> face with the disregard they are showing for
> public input. They are going to be affecting SO
> MANY residents and yet this is how they plan on
> shoving it through:
>
> The community engagement process will be completed
> before these critical dates:
> •
> January 20, 2011 – Boundary recommendations
> introduced as new business at the regular School
> Board meeting
> •
> February 7 and 8 – Public hearings (plus
> February 9, if needed)
> •
> February 14 – School Board work session
> •
> February 24 – School Board decision on Southwest
> county boundaries
>
> WAKE UP FAIRFAX COUNTY!!!!!

Quite a few of the Board Members are not going to run again in the next election.
In the long run, if they close Clifton at the end of June and make these boundary shifts, it will be a good thing. The anger that will stem from it will open the doors for other candidates to run sucessfully against Kathy Smith and Liz Bradsher. We could see an entirely new Board the next round. Unless you have no clue what is going on nationally, voters are already going to the polls with a sense of anger because decisions are getting forced upon them. This will be no different. They aren't suddenly going to turn off the anger when on the same ballot they are trying to decide between an incumbent that forced decision on them at the local level versus someone fresh. Good bye Kathy Smith and Liz Bradsher.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FairTax Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anyone on this thread realize that massive
> > boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> > Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas are
> > coming. No school will be left untouched out
> of
> > the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at
> up
> > to 6 elementary schools to drive their program
> > capacity up to the magic 950 student population.
>
> > Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> > addition" list only because of the closure of
> > Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued
> that
> > Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at
> Powell
> > and Centreville, but it actually will be closer
> to
> > some Clifton students than other schools.
> >
> > Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that
> goes
> > to Woodson will be looked over quite hard based
> on
> > today's work session discussions of the School
> > Board.
> >
> > The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a
> vote
> > in February on the boundary/build changes
> > required. And if you think any level of
> logical
> > thought other than socioeconomic engineering is
> > going into this....think again.
>
> And by keeping your schools open and avoid
> bringing poor folks into "your" schools, you're
> trying your own brand of socio-economic
> engineering.


Hardly, I'm for extending the boundaries and bringing more kids to Clifton - let more kids benefit from one of the top schools in the County!!!!

NewToClifton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FairTax Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Does anyone on this thread realize that
> massive
> > > boundary shifts in the Burke, Fairfax,
> > > Centreville, Chantilly and Fair Lakes areas
> are
> > > coming. No school will be left untouched out
> > of
> > > the 23 involved. Additions will be needed at
> > up
> > > to 6 elementary schools to drive their
> program
> > > capacity up to the magic 950 student
> population.
> >
> > > Union Mill and Fairview are on the "possible
> > > addition" list only because of the closure of
> > > Clifton Elementary. Yes, it could be argued
> > that
> > > Union Mill could aid in the overcrowding at
> > Powell
> > > and Centreville, but it actually will be
> closer
> > to
> > > some Clifton students than other schools.
> > >
> > > Also, the Oak View "attendance island" that
> > goes
> > > to Woodson will be looked over quite hard
> based
> > on
> > > today's work session discussions of the
> School
> > > Board.
> > >
> > > The crystal ball will spit out a plan with a
> > vote
> > > in February on the boundary/build changes
> > > required. And if you think any level of
> > logical
> > > thought other than socioeconomic engineering
> is
> > > going into this....think again.
> >
> > And by keeping your schools open and avoid
> > bringing poor folks into "your" schools, you're
> > trying your own brand of socio-economic
> > engineering.
>
>
> Hardly, I'm for extending the boundaries and
> bringing more kids to Clifton - let more kids
> benefit from one of the top schools in the
> County!!!!


That would make too much common sense for the School Board. The direction they have gone in is to propose a lot of renovations that are more wants than needs so they can tell the public it is too expensive. Now they are going to turn around and put a bunch of expensive additions on other schools that will cost taxpayers more money. It's all politics -- the kids are irrelevant.

The new Principal at Clifton Elementary was just in the Connection newspaper. In an interview she said it was a dream job at a dream school. It was the first time she had ever been a Principal at a school where every child showed up to school the first day, etc.

It's beginning to sound more and more like the School Board is the evil empire and they are just out to destroy anything that IS good. Good education obviously isn't their priority.

sammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The new Principal at Clifton Elementary was just
> in the Connection newspaper. In an interview she
> said it was a dream job at a dream school. It was
> the first time she had ever been a Principal at a
> school where every child showed up to school the
> first day, etc.
>
> It's beginning to sound more and more like the
> School Board is the evil empire and they are just
> out to destroy anything that IS good. Good
> education obviously isn't their priority.

She sounds very good at spinning the facts. No administrator thinks it's a "dream job" to go to a school that's slated for closure, unless she's about to retire.

Dubious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No administrator thinks it's a "dream job" to go to a
> school that's slated for closure, unless she's
> about to retire.


Probably got a nice buy-out/retirement package and was asked to ride off into the sunset with this school. Just a lame duck administrator.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

Or maybe it really is a dream job. I heard Clifton had a 100% pass rate on the SOLs. Every kid in the school passed.

Of course, that will just be another reason for the School Board to seek out and destroy the school.

Renee was not well liked at her prior school-they were glad to be rid of her.

The only good thing coming out of closing Clifton would be they wouldn't have to suffer another year with her.

"Delighted with her new job, part of her affinity for Clifton is because of its history, and her own. “I’m actually a DAR,†she said. “My father’s family emigrated here from Germany in 1753 and founded the town of Critz, in southwestern Virginia. They were naturalized as British citizens because it was before the Revolutionary War.â€

Furthermore, one of Miller’s ancestors was a colonel in the Revolutionary War, witnessed the surrender at Yorktown and served in the Virginia House of Delegates. So, she said, “That historical feel is a tie to Clifton. Since I was an Army brat and an Air Force spouse, I don’t have a hometown, but I have roots in Virginia.â€

What the hell is she talking about? Why does any of this create a tie to Clifton? Does she always babble this much? Good luck; sounds like you'll need it.

Curiouser Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Delighted with her new job, part of her affinity
> for Clifton is because of its history, and her
> own. “I’m actually a DAR,†she said. “My
> father’s family emigrated here from Germany in
> 1753 and founded the town of Critz, in
> southwestern Virginia. They were naturalized as
> British citizens because it was before the
> Revolutionary War.â€
>
> Furthermore, one of Miller’s ancestors was a
> colonel in the Revolutionary War, witnessed the
> surrender at Yorktown and served in the Virginia
> House of Delegates. So, she said, “That
> historical feel is a tie to Clifton. Since I was
> an Army brat and an Air Force spouse, I don’t
> have a hometown, but I have roots in Virginia.â€
>
> What the hell is she talking about? Why does any
> of this create a tie to Clifton? Does she always
> babble this much? Good luck; sounds like you'll
> need it.

She has an appreciation for history --> the school is part of the Historical Town of Clifton. Sorry that had to be spelled out for you.

Huh....Nazi, I mean German ancestry...now it all makes sense.

Has she implemented the red zones yet where the kids aren't allowed to talk outside of the classroom?

Just wait.

red zones? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh....Nazi, I mean German ancestry...now it all
> makes sense.
>
> Has she implemented the red zones yet where the
> kids aren't allowed to talk outside of the
> classroom?
>
> Just wait.


She has been trying to coordinate fun activities for the kids outside of the classroom. The parents and students really like her!

I have to admit, I was skeptical at first, but so far everyone really likes her. It's too soon to tell, but time will tell.

red zones? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh....Nazi, I mean German ancestry...now it all
> makes sense.
>
> Has she implemented the red zones yet where the
> kids aren't allowed to talk outside of the
> classroom?
>
> Just wait.


Shouldn't there be places outside of the classroom where the kids aren't allowed to talk or they might distract other kids that are still in the classrooms?

I would rather the school teach my kid and others self control then forbid them to speak at all.

It is a lazy way of educating.

We don't trust you to learn how to speak in a quiet voice, so we would rather you not speak at all.

absolutes are unhealthy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would rather the school teach my kid and others
> self control then forbid them to speak at all.
>
> It is a lazy way of educating.
>
> We don't trust you to learn how to speak in a
> quiet voice, so we would rather you not speak at
> all.


Maybe if the kids weren't put into factories they call schools, they would be able to give them more individual attention to take the time to do that.

For the last 3 years some of the current Board Members (Liz Bradsher, Kathy Smith, Stu Gibson, Tessie Wilson) have been trying to implement their ideals of a government based on socialism into Fairfax County and have been using your kids to do it. They want to build huge factories they call schools (huge 900+ student schools or add additions onto existing schools to make them as large as possible) to make your kids feel as unimportant as possible and become just numbers so “no one feelings get hurtâ€.

They have tried to push socialism forward by trying to create a classless society by targeting specific areas -- redistrict Vienna, close Clifton and overcrowd McLean. If you think all of this socioeconomic re-enginerring they have been doing over the last couple of years is about education, you are crazy. It is about them trying to further socialism.

America is a capitalist country, not a socialist one. If they don’t like it, than they should get out of the country instead of trying to change this one. At the very least, they shouldn’t be serving in public office.

Liz Bradsher is the worst. She misrepresented herself to voters. She ran on a platform of wanting to promote community schools but she has now voted to close not one, but TWO, community schools in just the last 3 years (Graham Road and Clifton Elementary). How can someone like that be trusted?

NoSocialism Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> absolutes are unhealthy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I would rather the school teach my kid and
> others
> > self control then forbid them to speak at all.
> >
> > It is a lazy way of educating.
> >
> > We don't trust you to learn how to speak in a
> > quiet voice, so we would rather you not speak
> at
> > all.
>
>
> Maybe if the kids weren't put into factories they
> call schools, they would be able to give them more
> individual attention to take the time to do that.
>
>
> For the last 3 years some of the current Board
> Members (Liz Bradsher, Kathy Smith, Stu Gibson,
> Tessie Wilson) have been trying to implement their
> ideals of a government based on socialism into
> Fairfax County and have been using your kids to do
> it. They want to build huge factories they call
> schools (huge 900+ student schools or add
> additions onto existing schools to make them as
> large as possible) to make your kids feel as
> unimportant as possible and become just numbers so
> “no one feelings get hurtâ€.
>
> They have tried to push socialism forward by
> trying to create a classless society by targeting
> specific areas -- redistrict Vienna, close
> Clifton and overcrowd McLean. If you think all
> of this socioeconomic re-enginerring they have
> been doing over the last couple of years is about
> education, you are crazy. It is about them
> trying to further socialism.
>
> America is a capitalist country, not a socialist
> one. If they don’t like it, than they should
> get out of the country instead of trying to change
> this one. At the very least, they shouldn’t
> be serving in public office.


It sounds like it's time to have a tea party and plan how to get these people out of office! Frankly, I am just tired of their spending habits. There was Gatehouse II, the facade that Clifton was too costly to renovate in order to motivate voters to pass a bond for either a new school or costly additions, the BOS are sick of their spending. 54% of the budget goes to them and I am sick of my property taxes being raised because of them. Let's get this party started!

So "No Socialism" wants to build a series of 300-400 student schools with the attendant increased cost in maintenance, building, etc.? Wouldn't that require increased government spending and taxes?

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So "No Socialism" wants to build a series of
> 300-400 student schools with the attendant
> increased cost in maintenance, building, etc.?
> Wouldn't that require increased government
> spending and taxes?

Government spending is resulting because FCPS is unable to make reasonable decisions. For example, Why does this County have so many more Assistant Principals than any other surrounding District? All of the extra administrators just create more paperwork for the teachers in order to protect their own jobs. FCPS is top heavy. That is where they need to make the cuts. All of the redistricting they are doing in order to facilitate this socialism agenda is also resulting in more buses, more gas costs, etc. Why not cut there?

NoSocialism Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Government spending is resulting because FCPS is
> unable to make reasonable decisions. For
> example, Why does this County have so many more
> Assistant Principals than any other surrounding
> District? All of the extra administrators just
> create more paperwork for the teachers in order to
> protect their own jobs. FCPS is top heavy. That
> is where they need to make the cuts. All of the
> redistricting they are doing in order to
> facilitate this socialism agenda is also resulting
> in more buses, more gas costs, etc. Why not cut
> there?


Compared to Westchester County and many others that have multiple town city and village gov'ts, we have less administrative overhead. There is a lot of fluff in FCPS that could be cut, such as the elem language immersion, strings and so on.

But we wouldn't want to pay for private music and language lessons for the kiddies, would we??

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

Dane Bramage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoSocialism Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Government spending is resulting because FCPS
> is
> > unable to make reasonable decisions. For
> > example, Why does this County have so many more
> > Assistant Principals than any other surrounding
> > District? All of the extra administrators just
> > create more paperwork for the teachers in order
> to
> > protect their own jobs. FCPS is top heavy.
> That
> > is where they need to make the cuts. All of
> the
> > redistricting they are doing in order to
> > facilitate this socialism agenda is also
> resulting
> > in more buses, more gas costs, etc. Why not
> cut
> > there?
>
>
> Compared to Westchester County and many others
> that have multiple town city and village gov'ts,
> we have less administrative overhead. There is a
> lot of fluff in FCPS that could be cut, such as
> the elem language immersion, strings and so on.
>
> But we wouldn't want to pay for private music and
> language lessons for the kiddies, would we??


I am sure if there was time to research other areas that have multiple town city and village gov'ts that there are some that have less administrative overhead than FCPS -- it's all in where you pull data from.

The School Board will not give up language lessons and music because they want to be in control of the resources and output = socialism. There are plenty of parents that would prefer to have the choice of paying less taxes and picking a music program of their own choice but they are becoming more and more strapped for cash. You will not see those parents publicized though. FCPS will only publicize the ones that are screaming they don't want the programs cut. That is how they gain more control over and essentially blackmail money out of the County Supervisors. They want to be in charge of your money and in charge of what languages your children have an opportunity to learn.

Socialists tend to gravitate toward promoting an ignorant society. Useful idiots are more amenable to dominance than citizens who have read and understood the documents of the Founding Fathers. FCPS is slipping in its rankings. The VGLA tests have been overused. The School Board wants to close schools that were achieving educational successes (like Graham Road and Clifton Elementary) instead of promoting those schools and using them as models. It does sound like the School Board is promoting socialism.

Dane Bramage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Compared to Westchester County and many others
> that have multiple town city and village gov'ts,
> we have less administrative overhead. There is a
> lot of fluff in FCPS that could be cut, such as
> the elem language immersion, strings and so on.
>

AND they miss out on redistricting -

"Public Involvement"; The Wall of Shame; Islands; Split Feeders; Being Called Racists by District Teachers; Kid 1 Gets AP, Kid 2 Gets IB Because IB's cool; S.B Member Logrolling; Staff and SB Refusing to Accept Responsibility for Anything; Tisdadt "Those are our numbers, but I don't believe them"; ...

Several of the Board Members (Liz Bradsher, Kathy Gibson, Stu Gibson, Tessie Wilson) have essentially been pushing an ideal of socialism for the last three years on Fairfax County residents. These are all traits of a socialist environment and this is what their leadership has given us:

FCPS has a big, self-perpetuating bureaucracy that is promoting large facilities (can anyone say Gatehouse II, etc.?)

Costs are high (taxes keep going up), but many facilities and equipment are poorly maintained (no to renovations) wages are low (teachers on wage freezes, bus drivers fear for their jobs).

Government mandated socio-economic re-engineering by directly targeting certain communities through redistricting (South Lakes redistricting, Clifton closure, overcrowding Mclean).

They continuously effect social engineering by controlling curricula, text books, etc (they WANT to have the language immersion programs, etc).

There are few incentives for innovation and creativity in solving problems. Teachers are forced to follow what is mandated versus is what might be best for the children. Tons of bureaucracy by all of the Adminstrators.

Yes, folks, that is socialism. It’s time to Take America Back. These people need to be booted out of office in the next election.

TeaPartier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Several of the Board Members (Liz Bradsher, Kathy
> Gibson, Stu Gibson, Tessie Wilson) have
> essentially been pushing an ideal of socialism for
> the last three years on Fairfax County residents.
> These are all traits of a socialist environment
> and this is what their leadership has given us:
>
> FCPS has a big, self-perpetuating bureaucracy
> that is promoting large facilities (can anyone say
> Gatehouse II, etc.?)
>
> Costs are high (taxes keep going up), but many
> facilities and equipment are poorly maintained (no
> to renovations) wages are low (teachers on wage
> freezes, bus drivers fear for their jobs).
>
> Government mandated socio-economic re-engineering
> by directly targeting certain communities through
> redistricting (South Lakes redistricting, Clifton
> closure, overcrowding Mclean).
>
> They continuously effect social engineering by
> controlling curricula, text books, etc (they WANT
> to have the language immersion programs, etc).
>
> There are few incentives for innovation and
> creativity in solving problems. Teachers are
> forced to follow what is mandated versus is what
> might be best for the children. Tons of
> bureaucracy by all of the Adminstrators.
>
> Yes, folks, that is socialism. It’s time to
> Take America Back. These people need to be booted
> out of office in the next election.

How is there "Government mandated socio-economic re-engineering" in overcrowded McLean? The schools are overcrowded because people move into the area so their kids can attend the McLean schools. Go to Longfellow MS - it's 50 years old, overcrowded, and looks like it's been bombed and parents, and people still want their kids to go there.

Knowledge Seeker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TeaPartier Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Several of the Board Members (Liz Bradsher,
> Kathy
> > Gibson, Stu Gibson, Tessie Wilson) have
> > essentially been pushing an ideal of socialism
> for
> > the last three years on Fairfax County
> residents.
> > These are all traits of a socialist
> environment
> > and this is what their leadership has given us:
> >
> > FCPS has a big, self-perpetuating bureaucracy
> > that is promoting large facilities (can anyone
> say
> > Gatehouse II, etc.?)
> >
> > Costs are high (taxes keep going up), but many
> > facilities and equipment are poorly maintained
> (no
> > to renovations) wages are low (teachers on wage
> > freezes, bus drivers fear for their jobs).
> >
> > Government mandated socio-economic
> re-engineering
> > by directly targeting certain communities
> through
> > redistricting (South Lakes redistricting,
> Clifton
> > closure, overcrowding Mclean).
> >
> > They continuously effect social engineering by
> > controlling curricula, text books, etc (they
> WANT
> > to have the language immersion programs, etc).
> >
> > There are few incentives for innovation and
> > creativity in solving problems. Teachers are
> > forced to follow what is mandated versus is
> what
> > might be best for the children. Tons of
> > bureaucracy by all of the Adminstrators.
> >
> > Yes, folks, that is socialism. It’s time to
> > Take America Back. These people need to be
> booted
> > out of office in the next election.
>
> How is there "Government mandated socio-economic
> re-engineering" in overcrowded McLean? The
> schools are overcrowded because people move into
> the area so their kids can attend the McLean
> schools. Go to Longfellow MS - it's 50 years old,
> overcrowded, and looks like it's been bombed and
> parents, and people still want their kids to go
> there.


They keep it overcrowded so that anyone who has the ability to do so will put their children in private school because they don't like overcrowded classes. FCPS will still get the tax revenue from those parents but the parents are now having to pay for private school. It's a socialist way to level everything.

TeaPartier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> They keep it overcrowded so that anyone who has
> the ability to do so will put their children in
> private school because they don't like overcrowded
> classes. FCPS will still get the tax revenue from
> those parents but the parents are now having to
> pay for private school. It's a socialist way to
> level everything.

Not very convincing.

There are lots of people in McLean and Great Falls with enough money for private schools who send their kids to public schools. They just want them to attend the same public schools (Langley, not South Lakes; McLean, not Marshall), so the schools end up overcrowded).

Langley and McLean High Schools are definitely catered to by the school board. School boundaries for Langley are untouchable.

Question: Which FCPS high school has the perk of having former tennis champion Mats Wilander (sp?) mentoring their young male tennis athletes this year?

Answer: Langley HS.

Boundary Study is getting ready to begin where FCPS pretends to get input and care what the public has to save even though it always just for show. They have spread it across multiple schools on the same nights to jam it through as quickly as possible and to detract as much media publicity away from it as possible. Here are the dates:

Monday, October 25, 7-9 p.m.•
Greenbriar West Elementary School, 13300 Poplar Tree Road, Fairfax• Union Mill Elementary School, 13611 Springstone Drive, Clifton•
Virginia Run Elementary School,15450 Martins Hundred Drive, Centreville

Tuesday, October 26, 7-9 p.m.•
Colin Powell Elementary School, 13340 Leland Road, Centreville•
Fairview Elementary School, 5815 Ox Road, Fairfax Station•
Willow Springs Elementary School, 5400 Willow Springs School Road, Fairfax

TeaPartier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Several of the Board Members (Liz Bradsher, Kathy
> Gibson, Stu Gibson, Tessie Wilson) have
> essentially been pushing an ideal of socialism for
> the last three years on Fairfax County residents.
> These are all traits of a socialist environment
> and this is what their leadership has given us:
>
> FCPS has a big, self-perpetuating bureaucracy
> that is promoting large facilities (can anyone say
> Gatehouse II, etc.?)
>
> Costs are high (taxes keep going up), but many
> facilities and equipment are poorly maintained (no
> to renovations) wages are low (teachers on wage
> freezes, bus drivers fear for their jobs).
>
> Government mandated socio-economic re-engineering
> by directly targeting certain communities through
> redistricting (South Lakes redistricting, Clifton
> closure, overcrowding Mclean).
>
> They continuously effect social engineering by
> controlling curricula, text books, etc (they WANT
> to have the language immersion programs, etc).
>
> There are few incentives for innovation and
> creativity in solving problems. Teachers are
> forced to follow what is mandated versus is what
> might be best for the children. Tons of
> bureaucracy by all of the Adminstrators.
>
> Yes, folks, that is socialism. It’s time to
> Take America Back. These people need to be booted
> out of office in the next election.

FCPS isn't socialist, its more like communist. They even have a Media and Crisis Communications Department that wastes taxpayer dollars spending its time trying to counteract bad publicity and researching people they think may say something negative about FCPS. How does that help the education of our children? Wonder how much the salaries in that department total up too? Why don’t we eliminate their jobs and put that money back into the schools for educating the children which is where it belongs.

CountyResident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TeaPartier Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Several of the Board Members (Liz Bradsher,
> Kathy
> > Gibson, Stu Gibson, Tessie Wilson) have
> > essentially been pushing an ideal of socialism
> for
> > the last three years on Fairfax County
> residents.
> > These are all traits of a socialist
> environment
> > and this is what their leadership has given us:
> >
> > FCPS has a big, self-perpetuating bureaucracy
> > that is promoting large facilities (can anyone
> say
> > Gatehouse II, etc.?)
> >
> > Costs are high (taxes keep going up), but many
> > facilities and equipment are poorly maintained
> (no
> > to renovations) wages are low (teachers on wage
> > freezes, bus drivers fear for their jobs).
> >
> > Government mandated socio-economic
> re-engineering
> > by directly targeting certain communities
> through
> > redistricting (South Lakes redistricting,
> Clifton
> > closure, overcrowding Mclean).
> >
> > They continuously effect social engineering by
> > controlling curricula, text books, etc (they
> WANT
> > to have the language immersion programs, etc).
> >
> > There are few incentives for innovation and
> > creativity in solving problems. Teachers are
> > forced to follow what is mandated versus is
> what
> > might be best for the children. Tons of
> > bureaucracy by all of the Adminstrators.
> >
> > Yes, folks, that is socialism. It’s time to
> > Take America Back. These people need to be
> booted
> > out of office in the next election.
>
> FCPS isn't socialist, its more like communist.
> They even have a Media and Crisis Communications
> Department that wastes taxpayer dollars spending
> its time trying to counteract bad publicity and
> researching people they think may say something
> negative about FCPS. How does that help the
> education of our children? Wonder how much the
> salaries in that department total up too? Why
> don’t we eliminate their jobs and put that money
> back into the schools for educating the children
> which is where it belongs.


Media and Crisis Communications Department aka Spin Department.

http://www.tooconservative.com/?p=7695
Bad Move Liz
"Word out of the Springfield District is that Republican School Board Member Liz Bradsher is currently mulling over the idea of running against Supervisor Pat Herrity in next year’s Springfield Supervisor election….as a DEMOCRAT. Over the last few weeks, she has talked to a number of elected Democrats about switching parties in an effort to oust Herrity in 2011.
This comes as no surprise since she has been at odds with Clifton Republicans including Delegate Tim Hugo and Supervisor Pat Herrity over the Clifton Elementary School closure issue where Liz made a decisive vote AGAINST her constituents. The sad thing for “soon-to-be†former Republican Liz Bradsher is that not only do the Republicans no longer want her … But Democrats want her even less!

Just a thought for Liz….this year is not the best year to become a Democrat.â€

…….Well, that leaves her with joining the Tea Party and, guess what, the Tea Party doesn’t want her either! Pushing a decision to close Clifton Elementary in order to move West Springfield High School up the renovation queue to garner more votes from that area and serve her own political career for the next election is repulsive. To then throw the entire Southwestern portion of the County into redistricting requiring all kinds of expensive additions be added to schools in order to cover up the bad decision to close Clifton is a complete lack of fiscal responsibility and goes against everything the Tea Party stands for. The worst part is that not only will her decisions ultimately affect taxpayers but it will impact the lives of THOUSANDS of elementary school age children and their families. There are plenty of people now that will say the only party Liz Bradsher should be involved with is her own Retirement Party!

TeaPartier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> …….Well, that leaves her with joining the Tea
> Party and, guess what, the Tea Party doesn’t
> want her either!

You don't represent the Tea Party, so stfu.

Tired of this BS from another one of you whiney Clifton parents who thinks you know wtf you are talkin about when you DO NOT.

Real Conservative Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TeaPartier Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > …….Well, that leaves her with joining the
> Tea
> > Party and, guess what, the Tea Party doesn’t
> > want her either!
>
> You don't represent the Tea Party, so stfu.
>
> Tired of this BS from another one of you whiney
> Clifton parents who thinks you know wtf you are
> talkin about when you DO NOT.


Touch a nerve, Real Conservative?? Unfortunately, what TeaPartier has to say is correct! CES was closed so that WSHS could be renovated sooner. Yeah, Liz pitted one community against another in her own district. Way to go, Liz!! That's representing!

Real Conservative Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TeaPartier Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > …….Well, that leaves her with joining the
> Tea
> > Party and, guess what, the Tea Party doesn’t
> > want her either!
>
> You don't represent the Tea Party, so stfu.
>
> Tired of this BS from another one of you whiney
> Clifton parents who thinks you know wtf you are
> talkin about when you DO NOT.

The last thing the Tea Party needs is a candidate who does everything in their own self-interest. Liz Bradsher pushed for the Clifton closing to push West Springfield up the renovation queue. Trying to switch to the Tea Party would once again just be because she was trying to promote her own self-interest because the Republicans don't want her anymore.

TeaPartier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The last thing the Tea Party needs is a candidate
> who does everything in their own self-interest.
> Liz Bradsher pushed for the Clifton closing to
> push West Springfield up the renovation queue.
> Trying to switch to the Tea Party would once again
> just be because she was trying to promote her own
> self-interest because the Republicans don't want
> her anymore.

It seems like quite a non sequitur. Why should pushing WSHS up the renovation queue require Clifton to be closed? Because we're spending money earlier to renovate WS, we should spend even money earlier to close Clifton and build additions at 3-5 other schools.

It makes no sense, but maybe that's how FCPS Staff thinks. If that's the case, it seems that the issue isn't really whether Liz Bradsher is evil, but instead whether she's so damn incompetent that she couldn't take Staff on when she should have.

Bemused Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TeaPartier Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The last thing the Tea Party needs is a
> candidate
> > who does everything in their own self-interest.
>
> > Liz Bradsher pushed for the Clifton closing to
> > push West Springfield up the renovation queue.
>
> > Trying to switch to the Tea Party would once
> again
> > just be because she was trying to promote her
> own
> > self-interest because the Republicans don't
> want
> > her anymore.
>
> It seems like quite a non sequitur. Why should
> pushing WSHS up the renovation queue require
> Clifton to be closed? Because we're spending
> money earlier to renovate WS, we should spend even
> money earlier to close Clifton and build additions
> at 3-5 other schools.
>
> It makes no sense, but maybe that's how FCPS Staff
> thinks. If that's the case, it seems that the
> issue isn't really whether Liz Bradsher is evil,
> but instead whether she's so damn incompetent that
> she couldn't take Staff on when she should have.


It's not about the money. It's about Liz Bradsher trying to get votes. Liz Bradsher eventually wants to run for County Supervisor against Pat Herrity. When she pushed the build of South County Middle School ahead of everyone else it angered West Springfield High School SOAR group. She can get more votes from WSHS (larger attendance) than Clifton so Clifton was the sacrificial lamb to make WSHS believe she was doing something for them.

"The Clifton community requested e-mails and documents from School Board members and staff regarding the decision to close Clifton. What is most disturbing is a series of e-mails from board member Elizabeth Bradsher to SOAR head Erik Hawkins during the deliberations. SOAR is the West Springfield High School advocacy group that is trying to secure funding for a renovation which, unfortunately, isn't scheduled until 2017-19. In these e-mails, Bradsher openly encourages members of SOAR to send e-mails to other board members regarding the Clifton closure. She cautions them not to mention Clifton by name and coaches them to mention fiscal responsibility and how desperately West Springfield High School needs renovation dollars. They willingly oblige, bombarding School Board members days before the Clifton closure vote. Minutes after the vote, Bradsher e-mails Hawkins with a congratulatory e-mail stating "You got 2011," referring to securing West Springfield a spot on the 2011 bond referendum. I wonder if the Langley and Falls Church communities are aware of this deal."

http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/cms/story.php?id=2301

Long story short, it has nothing to do with money (unless of course you are a taxpayer who has been duped and is now going to eventually foot the bill for the expensive additions they are going to build at all the other schools).

4votes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bemused Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TeaPartier Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The last thing the Tea Party needs is a
> > candidate
> > > who does everything in their own
> self-interest.
> >
> > > Liz Bradsher pushed for the Clifton closing
> to
> > > push West Springfield up the renovation queue.
>
> >
> > > Trying to switch to the Tea Party would once
> > again
> > > just be because she was trying to promote her
> > own
> > > self-interest because the Republicans don't
> > want
> > > her anymore.
> >
> > It seems like quite a non sequitur. Why should
> > pushing WSHS up the renovation queue require
> > Clifton to be closed? Because we're spending
> > money earlier to renovate WS, we should spend
> even
> > money earlier to close Clifton and build
> additions
> > at 3-5 other schools.
> >
> > It makes no sense, but maybe that's how FCPS
> Staff
> > thinks. If that's the case, it seems that the
> > issue isn't really whether Liz Bradsher is
> evil,
> > but instead whether she's so damn incompetent
> that
> > she couldn't take Staff on when she should
> have.
>
>
> It's not about the money. It's about Liz
> Bradsher trying to get votes. Liz Bradsher
> eventually wants to run for County Supervisor
> against Pat Herrity. When she pushed the build
> of South County Middle School ahead of everyone
> else it angered West Springfield High School SOAR
> group. She can get more votes from WSHS (larger
> attendance) than Clifton so Clifton was the
> sacrificial lamb to make WSHS believe she was
> doing something for them.
>
> "The Clifton community requested e-mails and
> documents from School Board members and staff
> regarding the decision to close Clifton. What is
> most disturbing is a series of e-mails from board
> member Elizabeth Bradsher to SOAR head Erik
> Hawkins during the deliberations. SOAR is the West
> Springfield High School advocacy group that is
> trying to secure funding for a renovation which,
> unfortunately, isn't scheduled until 2017-19. In
> these e-mails, Bradsher openly encourages members
> of SOAR to send e-mails to other board members
> regarding the Clifton closure. She cautions them
> not to mention Clifton by name and coaches them to
> mention fiscal responsibility and how desperately
> West Springfield High School needs renovation
> dollars. They willingly oblige, bombarding School
> Board members days before the Clifton closure
> vote. Minutes after the vote, Bradsher e-mails
> Hawkins with a congratulatory e-mail stating "You
> got 2011," referring to securing West Springfield
> a spot on the 2011 bond referendum. I wonder if
> the Langley and Falls Church communities are aware
> of this deal."
>
> http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/cms/story.php?id=2301
>
> Long story short, it has nothing to do with money
> (unless of course you are a taxpayer who has been
> duped and is now going to eventually foot the bill
> for the expensive additions they are going to
> build at all the other schools).


Sounds like taxpayers weren't the only ones that got duped. How stupid were the other Board Members to not know all those emails from WSHS were instigated by Bradsher! She played them for fools too and most of them obviously bought it! How much County money are those morons in charge of? How many children's lives are they going to disrupt?

I have started an underground parents blog for the elementary school my children attend in McLean, called KGES. This blog addresses what's happening at the teacher and admin. level in public schools, which can be just as bad as what is happening at the school board level. Start one of these blogs at your school. We've got to unite our voices for change. Also, watch the doc "Waiting for Superman."

http://www.peelbacktheapple.blogspot.com/

http://kgesteacherratings.blogspot.com/

Tracy-
Get a life...or better yet get a real job and give your kids a slight possibility of turning out to be functional adults after your overbearing helicopter parenting.

I am no fan of FCPS either but you are not the solution.

Tracy Strelser Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have started an underground parents blog for the
> elementary school my children attend in McLean,
> called KGES. This blog addresses what's happening
> at the teacher and admin. level in public schools,
> which can be just as bad as what is happening at
> the school board level. Start one of these blogs
> at your school. We've got to unite our voices for
> change. Also, watch the doc "Waiting for
> Superman."
>
> http://www.peelbacktheapple.blogspot.com/
>
> http://kgesteacherratings.blogspot.com/


Why are you anonymous? I am not afraid to stand up and say what's not working. You can call me whatever you want, but I am trying to raise the concern of parents when they find out too late that FCPS didn't prepare their children. I went through the system. I have a freshman at W&M. I have four others in the system. I am not making the same mistakes twice. I am one piece of the pie advocating for the solution, not stepping back and trying to muzzle people who have been around the block and know what is not working. Parents need a say in evaluating teachers and administrators and the focus should be on education, not just raising money for the school. I'm pretty sure I am setting my children up for having successful lives, but more importantly, I want to help set up all children and not just my own. Feel free to contact me at strelser@msn.com if you'd like to have an honest communication about change.

To Tracey,

This all sounds wonderful---it's all for the kids, right? But think about it a bit more carefully. If parental input can be used to evaluate and possibly fire teachers, teachers may only give all A's to students. People tend to do what their bosses want them to do. Education will only get better when we support the professional education and professional pay and respect for teachers. As it is, teachers are feeling pretty low---do you think this kind of thing will attract people into this profession? Constant scrutiny is not fun. Teachers are not gods. The best college students will look elsewhere for jobs---places where they get respect, pay and no public evaluation. Knowing that parents are in control of your job is pretty frightening.

The parents should just teach their kids. They know how to do the job the best.

I would say 90% of the teachers do a great job. It is the other 10% that can make it a bad year for your child. The last time my child had a rotton teacher I told him to suck it up. When they get into the real world the may have an awful boss. Better that they learn how to deal with it now.

Tracy Strelser Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tracy Strelser Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have started an underground parents blog for
> the
> > elementary school my children attend in McLean,
> > called KGES. This blog addresses what's
> happening
> > at the teacher and admin. level in public
> schools,
> > which can be just as bad as what is happening
> at
> > the school board level. Start one of these
> blogs
> > at your school. We've got to unite our voices
> for
> > change. Also, watch the doc "Waiting for
> > Superman."
> >
> > http://www.peelbacktheapple.blogspot.com/
> >
> > http://kgesteacherratings.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Why are you anonymous? I am not afraid to stand up
> and say what's not working. You can call me
> whatever you want, but I am trying to raise the
> concern of parents when they find out too late
> that FCPS didn't prepare their children. I went
> through the system. I have a freshman at W&M. I
> have four others in the system. I am not making
> the same mistakes twice. I am one piece of the pie
> advocating for the solution, not stepping back and
> trying to muzzle people who have been around the
> block and know what is not working. Parents need a
> say in evaluating teachers and administrators and
> the focus should be on education, not just raising
> money for the school. I'm pretty sure I am setting
> my children up for having successful lives, but
> more importantly, I want to help set up all
> children and not just my own. Feel free to contact
> me at strelser@msn.com if you'd like to have an
> honest communication about change.


So do you have an issue about anonymous postings not being "honest communication"?

Would you want your name on this blog or any other where people could post anonymously about what kind of parent, neighbor, CCD teacher, or wife you are?

If you daughter graduates in 3 years and becomes a teacher do you want her "anonymously evaluated" on a random blog by anyone with a computer?

I am all for teacher accountability, but once again this is not the solution and a poor example of being a responsible citizen. I wouldn't want to be a teacher today. Back when you and I were in the FCPS system all they had to do is teach. Now they have bullshit administrative work, parents who think they can do it best, disruptive kids, and parents who will go to any extreme to make it easier for their child. The problem isn't just FCPS my dear. It is a systematic problem with education in America. But for many of us who fight for change for many years we realize the teachers are the probably the least to blame. So if you want to pretend you are the agent of change start with voting no to the bonds, voting out the current school board, and changing over the administrative beauracrats at the top.

But please dont try and help set up my children. Life is hard today and I don't want my kids calling me at age 40 to try and change their boss because he isn't being nice to them. So you may believe in your self righteous diatribe that because you have been around a block or two that you know whats best for my children but I assure you that is not the case.

Tracy Strelser Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tracy Strelser Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have started an underground parents blog for
> the
> > elementary school my children attend in McLean,
> > called KGES. This blog addresses what's
> happening
> > at the teacher and admin. level in public
> schools,
> > which can be just as bad as what is happening
> at
> > the school board level. Start one of these
> blogs
> > at your school. We've got to unite our voices
> for
> > change. Also, watch the doc "Waiting for
> > Superman."
> >
> > http://www.peelbacktheapple.blogspot.com/
> >
> > http://kgesteacherratings.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Why are you anonymous? I am not afraid to stand up
> and say what's not working. You can call me
> whatever you want, but I am trying to raise the
> concern of parents when they find out too late
> that FCPS didn't prepare their children. I went
> through the system. I have a freshman at W&M. I
> have four others in the system. I am not making
> the same mistakes twice. I am one piece of the pie
> advocating for the solution, not stepping back and
> trying to muzzle people who have been around the
> block and know what is not working. Parents need a
> say in evaluating teachers and administrators and
> the focus should be on education, not just raising
> money for the school. I'm pretty sure I am setting
> my children up for having successful lives, but
> more importantly, I want to help set up all
> children and not just my own. Feel free to contact
> me at strelser@msn.com if you'd like to have an
> honest communication about change.


Not exactly an "underground" blog. For those critics on FX underground perhaps you are not aware of the financial irregularities that have occurred at Kent Gardens. FCPS audit picked up on Hooker's junkets.

And for all of you not familiar with Mclean , KGES is in a great neighborhood plus gets mega extra funding over the last 10 years compared to other schools with similar demographics. Annual trip to Paris at any elementary schools in Chantilly?

Boy, you're going to have a heart attack with all that angst you carry. I'm just a parent who loves her kids and wants the best for them and have seen the mistakes we parents make by trusting the school. We can at least be civilized.

Thank you for the good information about "start with voting no to the bonds, voting out the current school board, and changing over the administrative beauracrats at the top."

I would only like to add overhauling the administration at KGES to the list of places to start.

And, you don't have to agree with me, but I'll take a good teacher in any bad system any day. That teacher makes the whole difference, which is why I don't think we should accept any bad teachers or any lukewarm teachers. Their role is far too important. 360 degree evals is a best practice that no one should fear.

I want to continuously improve, so I would not mind my kids or my husband or my friends "grading" me. If what has been going on for almost a century was working, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At least I'm trying to DO something instead of sitting around yelling at everyone online.

Start some blogs at your schools and start collecting input. Everyone knows it won't be totally objective, but at least you will be capturing some commen threads of concerns so that collectively we can start to change what's happening that isn't in the best interest of our kids, our society, our world.

Tracy Strelser

Put cameras in every classroom. Let's see what the "quality" of instruction really is.

Results???

1. Horrible teachers quit-which is what we want.

2. Mediocre teachers try harder-another plus.

3. The good ones get the positive recognition they deserve.

This is not rocket science. Fire all the coaches and all the other fluff that costs millions and let's film them at work.

I just heard an interesting take on this theme. At Woodley Hills Elementary School the aministration requests that each teacher provide a $25 gift card that can be given to the less fortunate students families (most of whom are non-English speaking) at Christmas time so they can buy presents for their children! Now, if the admin asks for this don't you think there is implicit pressure to go along?

Whatever you think about teachers pay, it is relatively lower than most professionals in this area and then to ask them to give money out of their own pockets is amazing.

There needs to be an audit of that school's finances!

PLease post details about the audit.

Are you saying that the principal went to Paris with school funds?

Someone please FOIA these documents!

Put all the teachers on cameras 24/7 and here's what you'll get:

Every mistake that is humanly possible in the classroom put up on youtube. Nobody wants to watch the great teaching (yawn). They will want to watch the teacher picking her nose, the teacher's pants sinking as she goes to the board, the teacher's wig slipping (yes, I've seen that after chemo), the teacher getting upset, the kid sneezing on the teacher, etc. etc. It would be a HUGE invasion of privacy and the best teachers would leave because they can do lots of things that are less stressful and pay more! The worst teachers will claim the camera is broken on most days and make sure it stays broken.

How would you like a camera on you at work or in your home 24/7?

It would be just terrific for brand new teachers---the stress level of being a brand new teacher is unbelievable without a camera. I know---I was there 21 years ago---in a middle school classroom! Have you posters ANY idea of what you are saying?? Isn't the principal supposed to monitor the teachers? If you don't like a teacher, talk to the principal. If you don't like the principal, talk to the school board and superintendent and get things changed! That is where change needs to happen for real improvement of the system.

Oh, here's another great thing that will happen with cameras. The "bad principals" will take clips out of context in order to get rid of good teachers that they don't like---because good teachers who complain are not liked. Or maybe the teacher didn't buy the $25 gift card for the poor kids or didn't volunteer for the curriculum review committee or whatever. Have you ever, ever had a bad boss???? This is a human business and it isn't like just checking to see if the cake is baked right or the machine got cleaned at the end of the day. Teaching is being turned into a "paint by the numbers" job---which it definitely is not. There will always be complaints about teachers no matter how hard they try.

And I'm sorry to say this----but to the poster who said it's not rocket science-- it is much more than rocket science. It's a very difficult job that is virtually impossible to quantify. Learning is often the same way---hard to quantify---it happens in so many different ways. You know when you see it, but can't exactly measure it with a thermometer.

Good luck with your camera idea. It should help the teachers' unions get more members and support.

I don't like the camera idea. We need to stand behind the good teachers and grin and bear it with the bad. You would have to kill/molest a child to be fired from FCPS. Jack Dale never goes after his own staff/teachers. He will fight for them till the bitter end.