Why do so many "CPs" assert that anyone who dares not to accept everything they say hook, line and sinker is an evil FCPS employee? Makes you wonder why they ever bothered to send their kids to public school in the first place...

I live in Alexandria, Kingstowne area, and this pisses me off! If you live in Clifton, love Clifton, hate Clifton or don't even know where it is, this issue should piss you off. This isn't about one school that was closed. The closing of Clifton ES just brought how screwed up the SB is to the attention of more people. People that are motivated to do something about it.

The fact is that the FCPS SB is out of control. There is no oversight, no accountability, and NO REPRESENTATION for the people that voted them into their positions. With the exception of one or two Board members, they all need to go. There needs to be more accountability. There needs to be more transparency, and explanations that are truthful as to how numbers can change so drastically in a period of one year.

Has the SB even reconsidered recalculating the enrollment based on correct information? From reading the reports and what I've read on here, the case seems to be pretty strong against the SB for failure to follow due process, at the very least. How did they not include 2 zip codes? Did they not even look at their own boundary map while calculating the enrollment?

The SB made a mistake. This time I do believe it is going to cost them far more than what the $7-11M to renovate the school would have cost.

I hope Clifton does everything they possibly can to over turn this decision, and holds the SB accountable.

FCPS Everywhere!!! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do so many "CPs" assert that anyone who dares
> not to accept everything they say hook, line and
> sinker is an evil FCPS employee? Makes you wonder
> why they ever bothered to send their kids to
> public school in the first place...


This is their reply when they are stymied by the money or other proof that closing Clifton ES is the correct decision.

To all the CPs, we understand that your sole motivation is to keep your fucking school open regardless the cost. Sorry, but the rest of the county is better off with it going away. Your spoiled little kids will be fine. It's fine to continue with your emotional nonsense, but you are better of accepting this.

We're tired of supporting your piece of shit school with our hard earned $$.

And yes, before you bring it up again, we're also tired of all other wasteful spening by the board.

FCPS Everywhere! wrote:

Why do so many "CPs" assert that anyone who dares not to accept everything they say hook, line and sinker is an evil FCPS employee? Makes you wonder why they ever bothered to send their kids to public school in the first place...


So---if you send your kids to public school you are not allowed to question the decisions of the elected school board?? People in Clifton are supposed to pay taxes and then send their kids to private schools because "how dare they question the almighty school board"???? By the way, the school board members are not FCPS employees. They are elected by the citizens of Fairfax County and they are not hired by FCPS. They are there to represent the citizens who ELECT them. They did not do their jobs. I don't think the Clifton parents have a beef with FCPS employees. The problem is with the SCHOOL BOARD.

Alexandria Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I live in Alexandria, Kingstowne area, and this
> pisses me off! If you live in Clifton, love
> Clifton, hate Clifton or don't even know where it
> is, this issue should piss you off. This isn't
> about one school that was closed. The closing of
> Clifton ES just brought how screwed up the SB is
> to the attention of more people. People that are
> motivated to do something about it.
>
> The fact is that the FCPS SB is out of control.
> There is no oversight, no accountability, and NO
> REPRESENTATION for the people that voted them into
> their positions. With the exception of one or two
> Board members, they all need to go. There needs
> to be more accountability. There needs to be more
> transparency, and explanations that are truthful
> as to how numbers can change so drastically in a
> period of one year.
>
> Has the SB even reconsidered recalculating the
> enrollment based on correct information? From
> reading the reports and what I've read on here,
> the case seems to be pretty strong against the SB
> for failure to follow due process, at the very
> least. How did they not include 2 zip codes? Did
> they not even look at their own boundary map while
> calculating the enrollment?
>
> The SB made a mistake. This time I do believe it
> is going to cost them far more than what the
> $7-11M to renovate the school would have cost.
>
> I hope Clifton does everything they possibly can
> to over turn this decision, and holds the SB
> accountable.

What are you talking about? The School Board is responsible for the oversight of FCPS. Do you want to elect another group of officials to oversee the School Board's oversight of FCPS? And the School Board is a group of elected officials who are up for election next fall, so how can you say it isn't a representative body? If you don't like your representatives, vote next fall to replace them.

And good luck if you think a "due process" challenge to the School Board's decision to close Clifton ES stands more than a snowball's chance in hell...

FCPS Everywhere!!! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do so many "CPs" assert that anyone who dares
> not to accept everything they say hook, line and
> sinker is an evil FCPS employee? Makes you wonder
> why they ever bothered to send their kids to
> public school in the first place...


This is their reply when they are stymied by the money or other proof that closing Clifton ES is the correct decision.

To all the CPs, we understand that your sole motivation is to keep your fucking school open regardless the cost. Sorry, but the rest of the county is better off with it going away. Your spoiled little kids will be fine. It's fine to continue with your emotional nonsense, but you are better of accepting this.

We're tired of supporting your piece of shit school with our hard earned $$.

And yes, before you bring it up again, we're also tired of all other wasteful spening by the board.





Ahem. Read this whole thread and you will see that this vote to close Clifton ES is one of the "wasteful spending" items you seem to want them to stop. Start watching the board meetings and you will soon see how dysfunctional the school board has become. Clifton is just a warning shot across the bow. And I am not from Clifton. I live in the vaunted WSHS territory (so I should really wish bad things upon Clifton so I can get my school renovated).

And good luck if you think a "due process" challenge to the School Board's decision to close Clifton ES stands more than a snowball's chance in hell...


Oh, but we had lots of snow here last year and we sort of are going into "hell" with the budget. So we could have snowballs in hell. I do not think this is over by any stretch of the imagination. If a president can be forced to resign, I think we can get a school board to revisit a school closing. As Winston Churchill said, "Never, never, never give up." I would not doubt the spirit of a community like Clifton and the reason of the majority of the people in this county. This issue has become about way more than Clifton---it is about the future of local governance.

I see a snowball in hell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Oh, but we had lots of snow here last year and we
> sort of are going into "hell" with the budget. So
> we could have snowballs in hell. I do not think
> this is over by any stretch of the imagination.
> If a president can be forced to resign, I think we
> can get a school board to revisit a school
> closing. As Winston Churchill said, "Never,
> never, never give up." I would not doubt the
> spirit of a community like Clifton and the reason
> of the majority of the people in this county.
> This issue has become about way more than
> Clifton---it is about the future of local
> governance.

The Churchill quotation is so apt - after all, the very future of Western civilization is at stake here.

And, by the way, while it's possible that the School Board might decide to reconsider its decision, it won't do so because it thought it was vulnerable to a "due process" challenge.

The Churchill quotation is so apt - after all, the very future of Western civilization is at stake here


Nobody had heard of Hitler when he got started either.


And, by the way, while it's possible that the School Board might decide to reconsider its decision, it won't do so because it thought it was vulnerable to a "due process" challenge.

Huh??

Decided: "firetrap"? Why, how curious - very 'Stu Gibson' of you. He (you?) too were 'decided' about this long before the facts came to light..."No, not true!" say you? Really? Really?

And just how were they going to vote with ANY LEGITIMACY on an issue which they KNEW they were missing key information? Yet proceeded to vote BEFORE the below outlined briefing?

The tiresome mudslinging about privilege, our darlings, racism and on and on proves nothing other than the FCPS employees or stoolies cruising this site as faux anti-defamationists have something to hide by attempting to make parents and children look like the villians. You can't put the lid back on Pandora's box - the truth is out and you all ripped that box wide open and reigned down the criticism from all sides all by yourselves.

Article published BEFORE THE JULY 8th vote:

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=330154&paper=81&cat=104
Future of Clifton Elementary in Question
School Board will meet July 13 to discuss options for Clifton Elementary, including possible closure. By Justin Fanizzi
Thursday, June 25, 2009
...
According to School Board member Liz Bradsher (Springfield), the School Board will be briefed July 13 by Dean Tistadt, chief operating officer of the department of facilities and transportation, on a study that will explore the state of the school’s facilities. The study will outline potential options for alleviating its problems, with the two most probable panaceas being renovation, or more drastically, closure and relocation.

Bradsher said that the briefing, which would also include studies on overcrowding at Colin Powell and Eagle View elementary schools, would examine the "multitude of options" that are available for Clifton Elementary, which the Board will discuss and then open up to community input.

"We want to do what is best for the community and the community’s children," Bradsher said. "We just have to wait for the report and then analyze it."
...Tisdadt acknowledged...is hoping to receive more input on other options for the school at the July 13 meeting.

Agreed:
"but the rest of the county is better off with it going away. Your spoiled little kids will be fine. It's fine to continue with your emotional nonsense, but you are better of accepting this. We're tired of supporting your piece of shit school with our hard earned $$."

And building a brand new school for 550 students -> a lie - 966 students & 96,500 sq ft is what they want: FCPS has 139 elementary schools averaging nearly 80,000 square feet, 12 of the 17 schools studied are larger than 90,000 square feet, with 2 exceeding 100,000 square feet! -> to the tune of $20+ MILLION dollars saves your hard earned $$ how exactly? And why, exactly, are YOU better off with our school going away? Why exactly are my kids spoiled? Do you have specifics...or do you just sling around dirt because you wallow in it?

This IS about Ffx Cty taxpayers and everyone's hard earned $$ - that's the only thing you have right. Don't take our word for it - here's FCPS' own Final Report from 3/25/10 on the issue: (PS - super confidence builder that report quotes 325 students...when there were 370 students enrolled as of 1/31/10 at the time of the report)
Attachments:

Huh? wrote:

"And, by the way, while it's possible that the School Board might decide to reconsider its decision, it won't do so because it thought it was vulnerable to a "due process" challenge."



I think they're vulnerable to being kicked out and having their political careers/reputations ruined. For reasons that have to do with process. They won't admit that, but that's the bottom line on this.

out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think they're vulnerable to being kicked out and
> having their political careers/reputations ruined.
> For reasons that have to do with process. They
> won't admit that, but that's the bottom line on
> this.

Who exactly is "they"? Maybe Liz Bradsher is persuaded not to run again, or does so anyway and gets trounced. And perhaps Kathy Smith is also vulnerable.

But who else? There are plenty of Democrats in Reston who'll be happy to vote again for Stu Gibson for supporting South Lakes. Both Gibson and Cathy Hudgins get re-elected in Hunter Mill over and over again. Jane Strauss protects folks in the Langley and McLean districts very well. You may not like the fact that Langley got an addition and is on the renovation queue, but Langley parents do. Mount Vernon residents will probably re-elect Abe Lincoln again, too, if he runs.

You want to believe that there will be some massive uprising by county voters in 2011 because the School Board decided to close a small elementary school - whose supporters couldn't fill up half an auditorium for a June hearing - in a part of the county most residents couldn't find on a map. To attract any significant support, you need to engage in serious advocacy to engage more people. Instead, we get cartoon caricatures, comparisons of Liz Bradsher to Adolf Hitler,and threats of potential "due process" challenges that don't have any chance of succeeding in court (but would waste taxpayers' funds). Surely you can do better than that.

Go ahead - flame away. After all, I must work for FCPS.

If "flaming away" gets the SB to be more considerate of constituents when they vote, then we have won without having to replace them.

If they continue to make decisions like this, they may well be voted out.

We might get better service from them in the future---that's what counts here.

Closing a school might seem like a localized issue, but SB voted to close the school before there was a full understanding of the total impact on the county. Students have to be moved, a school might be built, money might be spent that is taken from other areas, etc. There is going to be a real focus on the whole budget again this year. Parts of the whole will be looked at as they affect the whole.

Maybe there will be no impact from this closing on votes---if things go well from here.

Huh?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> out Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think they're vulnerable to being kicked out
> and
> > having their political careers/reputations
> ruined.
> > For reasons that have to do with process.
> They
> > won't admit that, but that's the bottom line on
> > this.
>
> Who exactly is "they"? Maybe Liz Bradsher is
> persuaded not to run again, or does so anyway and
> gets trounced. And perhaps Kathy Smith is also
> vulnerable.
>
> But who else? There are plenty of Democrats in
> Reston who'll be happy to vote again for Stu
> Gibson for supporting South Lakes. Both Gibson and
> Cathy Hudgins get re-elected in Hunter Mill over
> and over again. Jane Strauss protects folks in
> the Langley and McLean districts very well. You
> may not like the fact that Langley got an addition
> and is on the renovation queue, but Langley
> parents do. Mount Vernon residents will probably
> re-elect Abe Lincoln again, too, if he runs.
>
> You want to believe that there will be some
> massive uprising by county voters in 2011 because
> the School Board decided to close a small
> elementary school - whose supporters couldn't fill
> up half an auditorium for a June hearing - in a
> part of the county most residents couldn't find on
> a map. To attract any significant support, you
> need to engage in serious advocacy to engage more
> people. Instead, we get cartoon caricatures,
> comparisons of Liz Bradsher to Adolf Hitler,and
> threats of potential "due process" challenges that
> don't have any chance of succeeding in court (but
> would waste taxpayers' funds). Surely you can do
> better than that.
>
> Go ahead - flame away. After all, I must work for
> FCPS.


More people are automatically going to be engaged as soon as the redistricting discussions start.

Huh?? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But who else? There are plenty of Democrats in Reston who'll be happy to vote again for Stu Gibson<

Wrong! The Ds in Hunter Mill are so outraged with the Stuy that his craveness has put out the word that he's not running for re-election. Good riddens!

Rainey will not get the D endorsement in '11.

Center is not running for re-election.

Neither is Wilson.

Bradsher will not get the Republican endorsement.

That's 5 new members to go along with Hone, Reed and Evans.

Will Jane Strauss want to stay on a SB where her antics are voted down repeatedly?

> Mount Vernon residents will probably re-elect Abe Lincoln again, too, if he runs.

Maybe

Will Moon get the D endorsement after losing for Braddock Supervisor?

Is there someone, anyone out there with a pulse? If so, they can beat Moon for the endorsement.

> Go ahead - flame away. After all, I must work for FCPS.

Not for long!

You don't have to live in Clifton or SoCty to see this whole issue has been contrived.
Not sure why some pointing gun at Clifton and saying they are to blame (So, 'Agreed' - the kids, really, it's their fault?).
Listen, genious - there's one clear answer here - and some old nag needs to be put out to pasture - cause she's a real -
Attachments:

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrong! The Ds in Hunter Mill are so outraged with
> the Stuy that his craveness has put out the word
> that he's not running for re-election. Good
> riddens!
>
> Rainey will not get the D endorsement in '11.
>
> Center is not running for re-election.
>
> Neither is Wilson.
>
> Bradsher will not get the Republican endorsement.
>
> That's 5 new members to go along with Hone, Reed
> and Evans.
>
> Will Jane Strauss want to stay on a SB where her
> antics are voted down repeatedly?
>
> > Mount Vernon residents will probably re-elect
> Abe Lincoln again, too, if he runs.
>
> Maybe
>
> Will Moon get the D endorsement after losing for
> Braddock Supervisor?
>
> Is there someone, anyone out there with a pulse?
> If so, they can beat Moon for the endorsement.
>
> > Go ahead - flame away. After all, I must work
> for FCPS.
>
> Not for long!

Apparently there aren't enough slip and falls in Reston to keep Thomas More fully occupied these days.

Don't know who Thomas More is but at least he is doing something. Based on the most recent Fairfax Times article, Stu Gibson and Tessie Wilson "listen to the silence."

I don't know, but when elected officials start saying they listen to the silence for voices of people they can't see or hear, there are people that would really consider that to be a bit "out there."

My company did a CFC recovery on all the clifton elem mechanical equipment this week. The county will need to do an asbestos remediation before the building can be reused. I bet they seal it off for a few years before they get the cash they need.

CFC contractor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My company did a CFC recovery on all the clifton
> elem mechanical equipment this week. The county
> will need to do an asbestos remediation before the
> building can be reused. I bet they seal it off for
> a few years before they get the cash they need.


Call Stu and Tessie and let them know so that they have time to "listen to the silence" in order to make a decision.

CFC contractor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My company did a CFC recovery on all the clifton
> elem mechanical equipment this week. The county
> will need to do an asbestos remediation before the
> building can be reused. I bet they seal it off for
> a few years before they get the cash they need.


I wonder if parents walked into Clifton ES, asked to see their (EPA required) asbestos management plan and read it would they still want their kids in that school - if it's as bad as you suggest and as hyper sensitive as these parents appear to be about "the children's health". By federal law, that plan should be available at the school to anyone who wants to read it. Now, being able to understand one of those plans is another ability all together.

Of course, just because you have asbestos, lead paint or whatever in the mechanical areas, doesn't translate into a danger for the children since I don't know of any kids that are allowed in those types of areas.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

Weird? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't know who Thomas More is but at least he is
> doing something. Based on the most recent Fairfax
> Times article, Stu Gibson and Tessie Wilson
> "listen to the silence."
>
> I don't know, but when elected officials start
> saying they listen to the silence for voices of
> people they can't see or hear, there are people
> that would really consider that to be a bit "out
> there."

Also, what's up with Stu Gibson and his "hate" (not) button? Is he wearing it on his own behalf, given how people now feel toward him, or is it intended as a message of support for a particular person or group?

Warhawk Wrote:

> Of course, just because you have asbestos, lead
> paint or whatever in the mechanical areas, doesn't
> translate into a danger for the children since I
> don't know of any kids that are allowed in those
> types of areas.


Right, its not dangerous. The air handling units, which provide a/c to every room in the school would be located in those mechanical areas. Shouldn't be a problem though, FCPS custodians are on the ball with replacing the air filters

There is asbestos in many, many buildings in the US and in this county. Heck, it's in my house. It is not dangerous unless it is disturbed. If it is not cut or scraped, etc. it is not airborne and will not harm anyone.

I would love to be an asbestos contractor and make tons of money on this stuff. They just spray water on it, put up some plastic, put on some breathing devices and remove. It's not a high tech operation or anything---pretty much labor.

asbestos - 'just spray water and remove'? not hardly.
KeeponTruckin - ' not dangerous'? not hardly.

Asbestos is the #1 airborne carcinogen with ZERO level of exposure known to be safe.

Have to ask yourselves --- after all the site investigations, all the reports, all the land acquisition studies by FCPS, the Final Staff Report and June 10th presentation by Tistadt to build an elementary school for between 550-966 students at Liberty --- why are they SUDDENLY, INEXPLICABLY NOT (or are they and not telling yet to let the Clifton dust settle first?)?

They spent nearly a year mandating the need for a new ES to handle overcrowding and meet future projected enrollments. Now - just stick 'modulars' at overcrowded schools?? They could have done that without an 'ad hoc committee' - they were LOOKING for a reason to close Clifton and build a new school. SO why not build?

Asbestos, baby, asbestos. And Tistadt kept it a secret. School Board Members claim they didn't know until just before June 28th public hearing. WHY? This site is one of the few owned by FCPS and they (staff) already knew it. Are they hanging it on Tistadt/Staff? Or are they lying? Has to be one or the other.

Asbestos is conclusively an airborne human carcinogen to which "there is no known threshold of exposure to asbestos below which there is no risk" according to the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health.

Per the Fairfax County Health Dept.:

Presence was known and documented to the Fairfax County Air Pollution Control Division in 1987.
The "Major Problem Soil Areas" Fairfax County map identifies the 'orange soil' area locations and where it is assumed the rock formation contains asbestos fibers.
There is no technically feasible way to separate "the safe from the bad" during the construction process, dry, windy conditions could carry this hazardous dust beyond the boundaries of a construction site.
Construction and development in these deposits have presented significant challenges with regard to public and employee safety;
Individuals, whose only connection with the site is their proximity to it, could be exposed to a serious health hazard;.
Exposure to asbestos has been linked to a number of serious health problems and diseases, particularly lung cancer.
Asbestos can be broken into tiny fibers, which can remain airborne for long periods of time and are exceptionally resistant to degradation and persist in the environment.
All projects involving or which may involve deposits of asbestiform rock are regulated by the Federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA);
air monitoring under Fairfax APCD CRD 1 to determine the public's exposure to asbestos beyond the construction project boundaries.
Monitoring is required to protect the public from asbestos exposure, with project boundaries can up to 300 meters from the actual source of the fugitive emissions, which levels are not easily predicted.
Construction site must be controlled to prevent unauthorized or uninformed individuals from entering and risking accidental exposure to asbestos.
Site personnel require personal protection equipment, properly fitted and tested respirators and clothing.
Construction sites must have facilities for decontamination of workers before they leave the regulated areas, decontamination trailers with showers and changing rooms to prevent contamination of street clothing and secondary exposures
decontamination methods for all tools, vehicles and equipment before they leave the construction site.
Plans must include mitigation and disposal of contaminated Tyvek suits and other items.
Insurance companies require more stringent state of the art standards for naturally occurring asbestos construction projects, recognizing existing regulations provide only the minimum protection and do not mitigate civil tort.
Plans must include identification of safe disposal sites for such contaminated material by the construction industry, as well as landfill operators, and disposition and transport of these spoils due to the potential release of fugitive asbestos dust and future development of the disposal or fill areas.
Landfill operators are reluctant to accept spoils because they contain asbestos and occupy large volumes of landfill space.

Asbestos=Cancer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> asbestos - 'just spray water and remove'? not
> hardly.
> KeeponTruckin - ' not dangerous'? not hardly.
>
> Asbestos is the #1 airborne carcinogen with ZERO
> level of exposure known to be safe.
>
> Have to ask yourselves --- after all the site
> investigations, all the reports, all the land
> acquisition studies by FCPS, the Final Staff
> Report and June 10th presentation by Tistadt to
> build an elementary school for between 550-966
> students at Liberty --- why are they SUDDENLY,
> INEXPLICABLY NOT (or are they and not telling yet
> to let the Clifton dust settle first?)?
>
> They spent nearly a year mandating the need for a
> new ES to handle overcrowding and meet future
> projected enrollments. Now - just stick 'modulars'
> at overcrowded schools?? They could have done that
> without an 'ad hoc committee' - they were LOOKING
> for a reason to close Clifton and build a new
> school. SO why not build?
>
> Asbestos, baby, asbestos. And Tistadt kept it a
> secret. School Board Members claim they didn't
> know until just before June 28th public hearing.
> WHY? This site is one of the few owned by FCPS and
> they (staff) already knew it. Are they hanging it
> on Tistadt/Staff? Or are they lying? Has to be one
> or the other.
>
> Asbestos is conclusively an airborne human
> carcinogen to which "there is no known threshold
> of exposure to asbestos below which there is no
> risk" according to the National Institute of
> Occupational Safety and Health.
>
> Per the Fairfax County Health Dept.:
>
> Presence was known and documented to the Fairfax
> County Air Pollution Control Division in 1987.
> The "Major Problem Soil Areas" Fairfax County map
> identifies the 'orange soil' area locations and
> where it is assumed the rock formation contains
> asbestos fibers.
> There is no technically feasible way to separate
> "the safe from the bad" during the construction
> process, dry, windy conditions could carry this
> hazardous dust beyond the boundaries of a
> construction site.
> Construction and development in these deposits
> have presented significant challenges with regard
> to public and employee safety;
> Individuals, whose only connection with the site
> is their proximity to it, could be exposed to a
> serious health hazard;.
> Exposure to asbestos has been linked to a number
> of serious health problems and diseases,
> particularly lung cancer.
> Asbestos can be broken into tiny fibers, which can
> remain airborne for long periods of time and are
> exceptionally resistant to degradation and persist
> in the environment.
> All projects involving or which may involve
> deposits of asbestiform rock are regulated by the
> Federal Occupational Safety and Health
> Administration (OSHA);
> air monitoring under Fairfax APCD CRD 1 to
> determine the public's exposure to asbestos beyond
> the construction project boundaries.
> Monitoring is required to protect the public from
> asbestos exposure, with project boundaries can up
> to 300 meters from the actual source of the
> fugitive emissions, which levels are not easily
> predicted.
> Construction site must be controlled to prevent
> unauthorized or uninformed individuals from
> entering and risking accidental exposure to
> asbestos.
> Site personnel require personal protection
> equipment, properly fitted and tested respirators
> and clothing.
> Construction sites must have facilities for
> decontamination of workers before they leave the
> regulated areas, decontamination trailers with
> showers and changing rooms to prevent
> contamination of street clothing and secondary
> exposures
> decontamination methods for all tools, vehicles
> and equipment before they leave the construction
> site.
> Plans must include mitigation and disposal of
> contaminated Tyvek suits and other items.
> Insurance companies require more stringent state
> of the art standards for naturally occurring
> asbestos construction projects, recognizing
> existing regulations provide only the minimum
> protection and do not mitigate civil tort.
> Plans must include identification of safe disposal
> sites for such contaminated material by the
> construction industry, as well as landfill
> operators, and disposition and transport of these
> spoils due to the potential release of fugitive
> asbestos dust and future development of the
> disposal or fill areas.
> Landfill operators are reluctant to accept spoils
> because they contain asbestos and occupy large
> volumes of landfill space.

There are two different issues here. One is that someone is claiming their might be asbestos at CES in the mechanical room, but that there are reports that people can look at because they would have already checked all of that.

The other issue is with digging up asbestos next to an existing school (Liberty Middle). When the particles become airborne they could affect the children and get on the playground at the existing Liberty Middle School. There is bound to be parents whose children aren't going to believe a contractor saying they can contain all of it and there is bound to be a lawsuit somewhere stemming from that.

That raises an interesting question though. If they were to build an addition on any of the existing schools (Colin Powell for example), will the same thing be happening? There is a large strip of that asbestos running through part of the area up there. Have they identified which schools could get the additions? Are they also within that strip of area that contains heavy asbestos in the soil.

They should have just left Clifton open. If their argument was true that it had declining enrollment, than why didn't they just redistrict some of the kids to go to Clifton?

CFC contractor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My company did a CFC recovery on all the clifton
> elem mechanical equipment this week. The county
> will need to do an asbestos remediation before the
> building can be reused. I bet they seal it off for
> a few years before they get the cash they need.


This is very interesting. If it is so dangerous in there, why aren't they closing it right away? It sounds like they did some asbestos removal this week and that the asbestos cleanup has been an ongoing process. In fact, why are they bothering with any of this if they are going to close the school. If it takes a few years to do an asbestos remediation before another tenant can occupy this building, this whole "closing" is costing a heap of money.

Asbestos is a problem in the soil at a construction site (the new proposed site) because it would be disturbed in a major way during construction. Asbestos is not a problem in a building if it is not disturbed (even in a "mechanical area"). I'm guessing it's wrapped around some pipes or in some tiles???

There was asbestos all over the place when I was in school (back in the 60's). The ceiling tiles were asbestos. The pipes were wrapped in the stuff. It was in the tiles in the floor. Maybe all of us baby boomers are going to die of lung cancer---but probably not because the asbestos would have been airborne only if those items were "disturbed" (of course I'm sure that happened sometimes when kids threw pencils up on the ceiling or whatever). I think the stuff was pretty well encased in the floor tiling (not so much of a problem there). I think the pipes were mostly behind walls and not disturbed.

I don't know how big of an issue this is at Clifton ES.

Of course they also let us play with liquid mercury in Chemistry class back then (among other things).

If you are considering a home purchase in Clifton or Little Rocky Run, be sure to have the seller provide a soil test showing that the lot is carcinogen free. Orange is asbestos



Keywords: Clifton, Little Rocky Run, Asbestos, Cancer, Carcinogen

asbestos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CFC contractor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My company did a CFC recovery on all the
> clifton
> > elem mechanical equipment this week. The county
> > will need to do an asbestos remediation before
> the
> > building can be reused. I bet they seal it off
> for
> > a few years before they get the cash they need.
>
>
>
> This is very interesting. If it is so dangerous
> in there, why aren't they closing it right away?
> It sounds like they did some asbestos removal this
> week and that the asbestos cleanup has been an
> ongoing process. In fact, why are they bothering
> with any of this if they are going to close the
> school. If it takes a few years to do an asbestos
> remediation before another tenant can occupy this
> building, this whole "closing" is costing a heap
> of money.
>
> Asbestos is a problem in the soil at a
> construction site (the new proposed site) because
> it would be disturbed in a major way during
> construction. Asbestos is not a problem in a
> building if it is not disturbed (even in a
> "mechanical area"). I'm guessing it's wrapped
> around some pipes or in some tiles???
>
> There was asbestos all over the place when I was
> in school (back in the 60's). The ceiling tiles
> were asbestos. The pipes were wrapped in the
> stuff. It was in the tiles in the floor. Maybe
> all of us baby boomers are going to die of lung
> cancer---but probably not because the asbestos
> would have been airborne only if those items were
> "disturbed" (of course I'm sure that happened
> sometimes when kids threw pencils up on the
> ceiling or whatever). I think the stuff was
> pretty well encased in the floor tiling (not so
> much of a problem there). I think the pipes were
> mostly behind walls and not disturbed.
>
> I don't know how big of an issue this is at
> Clifton ES.
>
> Of course they also let us play with liquid
> mercury in Chemistry class back then (among other
> things).


Pretty much every fairfax county building has some asbestos. It's just a matter of how much and where it's located. Some of the older schools have a tremondous ammount. EPA inspections are done every few years to determine if the risk level is worthy of a closure. The most recent close and seal orders I know of were the barracks in the old vint hill station in Fauquier county.

Yet another site urging voters to hold Liz Bradsher accountable for her vote to close Clifton Elementary.

http://crystalclearconservative.com/2010/07/clifton-elementary-school-to-close/

It is not clear that during the study, did folks on the committee know about the asbestos on the Liberty Middle School site? Did staff talk about this with the folks on the committee and at the town hall meetings?

maybe it is the silence

Oh, they knew...
whether "STAFF" (get your secret decoder ring out - Staff = Dale, Tistadt & Co.) told SB is up for debate.

The below is the FCPS version of the map at Liberty dated by their system on 3/8/10.

Asbestos=Cancer is right - if they planned on either renovating Clifton (supposed to be finished by 2013/14 or building a new school at Liberty then transferring the CES students there, how come neither happened?? Something fishy is going on.

First the elementary school at Liberty was the 'School for Nowhere'---> not near the 66/29 corridor where FCPS identified overcrowding (it was in the middle of Union Mill, Willow Springs, Centre Ridge, Clifton, etc. that aren't overcrowded) ----> now it's the "Vanishing School"?!?!

How can 10 months of study turn from 'build new school' to 'stick trailers at overcrowded schools? Now they are going to start all over imperiling MORE communities with another massive study on boundaries around the county???
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

http://www.fcps.edu/news/Liberty_MS_Site.pdf
Attachments:

TistadtKnew Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, they knew...
> whether "STAFF" (get your secret decoder ring out
> - Staff = Dale, Tistadt & Co.) told SB is up for
> debate.
>
> The below is the FCPS version of the map at
> Liberty dated by their system on 3/8/10.
>
> Asbestos=Cancer is right - if they planned on
> either renovating Clifton (supposed to be finished
> by 2013/14 or building a new school at Liberty
> then transferring the CES students there, how come
> neither happened?? Something fishy is going on.
>
> First the elementary school at Liberty was the
> 'School for Nowhere'---> not near the 66/29
> corridor where FCPS identified overcrowding (it
> was in the middle of Union Mill, Willow Springs,
> Centre Ridge, Clifton, etc. that aren't
> overcrowded) ----> now it's the "Vanishing
> School"?!?!
>
> How can 10 months of study turn from 'build new
> school' to 'stick trailers at overcrowded schools?
> Now they are going to start all over imperiling
> MORE communities with another massive study on
> boundaries around the county???
> WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/news/Liberty_MS_Site.pdf

If Tistadt lies and cheats on his wife, he will lie and cheat also to the taxpayers of FFC.

The School Board is trying to CLOSE a school because of BAD WATER,UNSAFE,AND LOW POPULATION in 2015. The water test from the county came back all good!! As far as the safety of the school, is it less safe than it was last year or in years past??? The population will not decrease with 20,0000 people coming to Fort Belvoir!!!

Manipulation by FCPS? Apparently it isn't just Clifton Elementary parents that think something is going on. Look at the article below. Here are some excerpts:


The Fairfax County Board of Supervisors agreed Tuesday to commit an extra $1.3 million to public schools for their neediest students -- but not without grumbling over whether the School Board and the superintendent had manipulated the budget and public emotion to secure the funds.

.....supervisors accused the district of using needy children as hostages to pry more money out of taxpayers.

"They do it every year at budget time," Supervisor Pat S. Herrity (R-Springfield) said in an interview, likening the district's maneuver to "blackmail."

Supervisor Jeff C. McKay (D-Lee) also expressed annoyance, saying that if the funding had been so key to the district's mission, it should have been included at the start of the budget process, not weeks before school begins.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/27/AR2010072705497.html?hpid=sec-education

wake up people Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The population will not decrease with
> 20,0000 people coming to Fort Belvoir!!!

I think you must be on crack if you think BRAC will increase Clifton ES enrollment.

Make the Liberty MS site the location or the new bus depot replacing the Eleven Oaks ES site. Instead of Woodson.

2006-07
2007-08
2008-09
# % # % # %
Asian or Pacific Islander 26 6.68 25 6.61 24 6.33
Black (Not of Hispanic Origin) 3 0.77 1 0.26 3 0.79
Hispanic 8 2.06 16 4.23 9 2.37
White (Not of Hispanic Origin) 311 79.95 295 78.04 305 80.47
Other 41 10.54 41 10.85 38 10.0
we had to deal with 9 HISPANICS. 3 MALCOLM AND 24 LESS. WTF WE NEED TO GET REID OF THEM WE NEEDED TO GO BACK TO ALL WHITE JOHNNYS

I have a great cost saving idea!
Most of the parents say the school
ain't broke so don't spend any money
on a new school or renovation of
the old school!! Make them live
with it the way it is!!!

The entire Clifton area agrees with you and we'd be very happy with it just as it is.

Look this thread is died the day they voted to close that p.o.s school. Get over it and move on with your life because nothing you say or do will change what is going to happen. The school will be torn down and johnny will have to be integrated with jose at the new elemetary school. 99% of the county could care less and a bunch of snot nosed clifton parents cant change a damn thing. End of thread

You're quite ignorant if that's your analysis.

Right now, FCPS has overcrowded schools near Clifton, no solution in hand for deaing with the overcrowding, an a School Board up for reelection next fall. The school won't be torn down before then and, if Clifton parents play their cards right, the decision will be reversed. Middle of story.

Not Yet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're quite ignorant if that's your analysis.
>
> Right now, FCPS has overcrowded schools near
> Clifton, no solution in hand for deaing with the
> overcrowding, an a School Board up for reelection
> next fall. The school won't be torn down before
> then and, if Clifton parents play their cards
> right, the decision will be reversed. Middle of
> story.


Get over it. Did you not read what I told you the first time? Nothing will change with the school board and the school will be torn down. booo hooo booo hooo

get over it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get over it. Did you not read what I told you the
> first time? Nothing will change with the school
> board and the school will be torn down. booo hooo
> booo hooo

You haven't a clue, troll boy.

Not Yet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're quite ignorant if that's your analysis.
>
> Right now, FCPS has overcrowded schools near
> Clifton, no solution in hand for deaing with the
> overcrowding, an a School Board up for reelection
> next fall. The school won't be torn down before
> then and, if Clifton parents play their cards
> right, the decision will be reversed. Middle of
> story.


Clifton elementary is already off line. The asbestos contractors are scheduled to be in there this fall. In the mean time it has no heat no air and no water.

Where are the kids going to school then?

Why are they bothering with the asbestos if they are going to close the school anyway? It makes no sense.

If there is no water and no air, where are the 12 month employees who work there right now (the principal, assistant principal and clerical staff)?? Are they working at Gatehouse for the summer?

getoverit:

Yes, you should.

http://www.novacommonsense.com/2010/08/07/parents-file-suit-against-fcps-over-clifton-elementary-closure/comment-page-1/#comment-1737

Will be nice to see SB get a taste of their own medicine and for parents to finally have an actual voice - too bad SB caused this...
http://www.novacommonsense.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Press-Release-Clifton-Lawsuit-8-9-10.pdf

Wonder how you would like your crow served?

I like my Crow served well done, with a side of SWEATY BALLS!

==================================================================================
"Why don't you LOSERS just pack your flower print DOUCHE BAGS
and get your stoopid @$$#$ THE FUCK OFF MY INTERNETZ!"

- 'philscamms' (the YT Watchdog) ; internet & YouTube® extraordinaire.

Time to propose the creation of a Clifton Public Schools -- its sole school would be the K-6 Clifton Elementary (there's a K-8 school system in Lexington, VA, already, and two towns -- West Point and Colonial Beach -- have their own school systems. So we have some precedent.)

Fairfax would give the Clifton School Board the money they'd spend if they closed CES and moved all the kids to Union Mill or whatever, or CPS residents would get a refund of part of their Fairfax County taxes.

After that CES is responsibility of the Clifton Public Schools, which would probably, of course, require an additional tax.

If the creation of Clifton Public Schools is rejected, then we know how strong Clifton residents' believe in public education is -- it's only as strong as their willingness to have other people pay for it.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Time to propose the creation of a Clifton Public
> Schools -- its sole school would be the K-6
> Clifton Elementary (there's a K-8 school system in
> Lexington, VA, already, and two towns -- West
> Point and Colonial Beach -- have their own school
> systems. So we have some precedent.)
>
> Fairfax would give the Clifton School Board the
> money they'd spend if they closed CES and moved
> all the kids to Union Mill or whatever, or CPS
> residents would get a refund of part of their
> Fairfax County taxes.
>
> After that CES is responsibility of the Clifton
> Public Schools, which would probably, of course,
> require an additional tax.
>
> If the creation of Clifton Public Schools is
> rejected, then we know how strong Clifton
> residents' believe in public education is -- it's
> only as strong as their willingness to have other
> people pay for it.

Your idea is not so far-fetched. Just the CPS part, no need for Clifton to operate it's own school system.

Just do like Fairfax City, pay FCPS to run the schools within it's borders. I think the Town of Vienna does this too.

say Wrote:
> Your idea is not so far-fetched. Just the CPS
> part, no need for Clifton to operate it's own
> school system.
>
> Just do like Fairfax City, pay FCPS to run the
> schools within it's borders. I think the Town of
> Vienna does this too.

Thing is the town itself is 150 or so residents; you'd have to have some sort of small tax district (kinda like the one that funds the McLean Community Center) to fund CES.

AFAIK (and I live in the town), Vienna doesn't pay FCPS to run the schools -- Fairfax City does because it's a city and in theory could operate its own Fairfax-Lanier-Providence/Daniels Run school system.

http://www.fairfaxva.gov/School/citycountyconnection.asp

* The Fairfax County School Board has administrative and operational control of City schools.
* City students are educated predominately in City schools.
* City and County School Boards meet annually.
* City School Board members attend County School Board meetings.
* City and County Superintendents consult, as needed, on topics to include: boundary changes, school closings, selection of principals, citizen participation, special community needs, non-school activities and complaints.
* The City makes major capital improvements to City school buildings.
* The County maintains City schools buildings and may make minor improvements.
* The City uses school buildings for non-school activities that do not interfere with use for school purposes.

I thought I had read here before when Fairfax County was threatening to turn the entire county into a giant independent city in the early 1960s, Herndon and Vienna made most of the moves to become independent cities too, but only Fairfax made the complete jump.

Most recent article on the lawsuit.

Clifton parents say Bradsher and other School Board members had made up their minds to close Clifton long before the July vote and the community meetings were designed merely to placate the public.

Springfield Supervisor Pat Herrity said it was unfortunate that Fairfax citizens had to resort to the legal system to make their voices heard.

"The fact that the well water was the School Board's number one reason to close Clifton and then it went away at the eleventh hour ... I think the [Clifton Community] has a strong case," Herrity said.

Herrity was referring to the School Board's contention that contaminated well water posed a threat to Clifton students.

Dean Tistadt, facilities chief for Fairfax's public schools, e-mailed water test results to the School Board just minutes before its members voted to close Clifton. Those tests showed Clifton's water was safe.

At least one School Board member said she understood the Clifton parents' frustrations.

"We never gave a clear rationale or a compelling reason to close Clifton," said at-large School Board member Martina Hone, who voted to keep Clifton open.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Clifton-parents-file-suit-against-school-board-1008627-100287544.html

I thought the DC Examiner was big on cutting government waste?

It isn't just folks from Clifton that think there is something wrong with this School Board:

Parents' faith in school system betrayed by board members

Fairfax County School Board members Stuart Gibson (Hunter Mill) and Tessie Wilson (Braddock) certainly sound aggrieved that citizens with a stake in the recent Clifton Elementary decision had the gall to oppose their wise decision.

But based on history, their complaints against personal attacks and slander both ring hollow. Many school board members have long used their elected position to push their political and social theories on the school system, while ignoring and maligning parents concerned about school issues. Gibson's one-year tenure as board chairman in 2002 was particularly notable for his unwillingness to work with parents in good faith. vParents concerned about smutty literature in the schools were, in turn, labeled religious nuts, racists and anti-intellectual. Meanwhile the school board broke its own rules for public discussion of the issue.

Those who trusted that the system was fair were sorely disappointed. This lack of good faith and arrogance on the part of school board members has continued through a charter school application submission and now the Clifton Elementary decision.

The continuing arrogance of the school board points to two possible solutions: Vote the bums out and/or split our giant school district into multiple, smaller districts that will be more responsive to community concerns and more agile in responding to educational issues.

Stan Barton, Centreville

http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/cms/story.php?id=1957

From all of these points, I can't tell what is going on here.

There is an older school that needs maintenance and continuing investment in it may not reflect the most efficient use of capital, especially in the face of declining enrollment. So there are some good reasons to shutter the school.

On the other hand, this elementary school has what the school district and indeed other schools prize - good students with responsible parents. It is certainly fair to surmise that FCPS desires to spread this "wealth" around - good students being a far more precious commodity than anything else in the world of test scores, failure to make AYP, VGLA manipulation, and so on. There is no end to the trouble a school undergoes with failure to make AYP - the administrators of course are going to transfer the most precious commodity - good students - so as to avoid these calamities. Really, given our history of success (really failure) in educating minority students across the country, from one perspective you cannot blame them. Again, honest discourse is what is needed.

The whole process seems designed to frustrate honest intellectual discourse. I think many would remain open to the possibility that indeed both motivations mentioned above are in play, and if so, being above board and honest about the same would be refreshing. After all, if FCPS is indeed engaged in social engineering (and most all large school districts spend an enormous amount of time and resource doing just that), I am not sure there is any harm in being open and transparent about this fact.

I think parents in communities like Clifton need to come to grips with the incredibly changing demographics of the county, which reflects our demographic trends in general across the country. Those least able to support their kids both in terms of education and structure and discipline are unfortunately the ones having kids in the greatest numbers. Yes, kids with two parents who simply care about their education are now passing as "privileged". It may no longer be realistic to expect to attend a public school in a large district without significant numbers of ESOL and lower income students - and with all the educational and achievement disadvantages that obtain with such students. And this is not an easy pill to swallow, because parents who care gain quite a bit of anxiety about schools when they tilt to warehousing rather than excellence (the typical result with the "wrong" demographics, no matter really how heroic teachers may be). And those in Clifton shouldn't reflexively jump on me for merely observing this very sad but unfortunate state of affairs, which will only get worse over time. If someone in the late 60's told me that by 2010 we would have a illegitimate birth rate of over 40 percent, I would have laughed (it is now over 40%). And given that an over 50% figure wouldn't surprise me by 2020, well, it is going to be very difficult to have high expectations for schools in most any large system.

Well said, Quantum. You have just hit the nail on the head. Social engineering? You bet! If we were all having more babies and speaking Spanish, the School Board wouldn't think of closing this school.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From all of these points, I can't tell what is
> going on here.
>
> There is an older school that needs maintenance
> and continuing investment in it may not reflect
> the most efficient use of capital, especially in
> the face of declining enrollment. So there are
> some good reasons to shutter the school.
>
> On the other hand, this elementary school has what
> the school district and indeed other schools prize
> - good students with responsible parents. It is
> certainly fair to surmise that FCPS desires to
> spread this "wealth" around - good students being
> a far more precious commodity than anything else
> in the world of test scores, failure to make AYP,
> VGLA manipulation, and so on. There is no end to
> the trouble a school undergoes with failure to
> make AYP - the administrators of course are going
> to transfer the most precious commodity - good
> students - so as to avoid these calamities.
> Really, given our history of success (really
> failure) in educating minority students across the
> country, from one perspective you cannot blame
> them. Again, honest discourse is what is needed.
>
>
> The whole process seems designed to frustrate
> honest intellectual discourse. I think many would
> remain open to the possibility that indeed both
> motivations mentioned above are in play, and if
> so, being above board and honest about the same
> would be refreshing. After all, if FCPS is indeed
> engaged in social engineering (and most all large
> school districts spend an enormous amount of time
> and resource doing just that), I am not sure there
> is any harm in being open and transparent about
> this fact.
>
> I think parents in communities like Clifton need
> to come to grips with the incredibly changing
> demographics of the county, which reflects our
> demographic trends in general across the country.
> Those least able to support their kids both in
> terms of education and structure and discipline
> are unfortunately the ones having kids in the
> greatest numbers. Yes, kids with two parents who
> simply care about their education are now passing
> as "privileged". It may no longer be realistic to
> expect to attend a public school in a large
> district without significant numbers of ESOL and
> lower income students - and with all the
> educational and achievement disadvantages that
> obtain with such students. And this is not an
> easy pill to swallow, because parents who care
> gain quite a bit of anxiety about schools when
> they tilt to warehousing rather than excellence
> (the typical result with the "wrong" demographics,
> no matter really how heroic teachers may be). And
> those in Clifton shouldn't reflexively jump on me
> for merely observing this very sad but unfortunate
> state of affairs, which will only get worse over
> time. If someone in the late 60's told me that by
> 2010 we would have a illegitimate birth rate of
> over 40 percent, I would have laughed (it is now
> over 40%). And given that an over 50% figure
> wouldn't surprise me by 2020, well, it is going to
> be very difficult to have high expectations for
> schools in most any large system.

WTF? If someone in the early 10's told me that an old windbag would take hundreds and hundreds of words to say what could be said in 2-3 sentences, I would have sighed. Deeply. And since the windbag acknowledged that he didn't really know what was going on, it is going to be very difficult to care about what he has to say on the topic.

"WTF? If someone in the early 10's told me that an old windbag would take hundreds and hundreds of words to say what could be said in 2-3 sentences, I would have sighed. Deeply. And since the windbag acknowledged that he didn't really know what was going on, it is going to be very difficult to care about what he has to say on the topic"

Let me help in translating this statement. An ad hominem attack is the only thing that obtains because the poster is beyond his or her intellectual or emotional comfort zone. Thanks for confirming that my statements indeed put you in a zone of discomfort - which is exactly what they were intended to do - especially, as I point out, the general lack of honest discourse over these issues. Nothing, and I mean nothing, affirms better that my comments have irritated a mediocre bureaucratic mentality more than a non-thoughtful response such as this. Thanks.

Clifton Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well said, Quantum. You have just hit the nail on
> the head. Social engineering? You bet! If we
> were all having more babies and speaking Spanish,
> the School Board wouldn't think of closing this
> school.

There is a larger problem at play that has nothing to do with having more babies or speaking Spanish. When there are more people using the resources than are paying into them than OF COURSE the resources will eventually be very limited. That is what is happening. If people are going to use the resources, than they need to pay into the system that everybody else is paying into. In other words, everyone needs to pay taxes equally. Illegal is not a race, illegal is a crime. It is unfair that only certain people hold the tax burden. If more people were paying for taxes for the resources being used than we could build new schools and hire more teachers to help ALL of the students.

See you in class, guys!

Taxes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clifton Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well said, Quantum. You have just hit the nail
> on
> > the head. Social engineering? You bet! If we
> > were all having more babies and speaking
> Spanish,
> > the School Board wouldn't think of closing this
> > school.
>
> There is a larger problem at play that has nothing
> to do with having more babies or speaking Spanish.
> When there are more people using the resources
> than are paying into them than OF COURSE the
> resources will eventually be very limited. That
> is what is happening. If people are going to use
> the resources, than they need to pay into the
> system that everybody else is paying into. In
> other words, everyone needs to pay taxes equally.
> Illegal is not a race, illegal is a crime. It is
> unfair that only certain people hold the tax
> burden. If more people were paying for taxes for
> the resources being used than we could build new
> schools and hire more teachers to help ALL of the
> students.


Let's get serious too. The people that can vote aren't going to vote for someone that comes out and says "Hi vote for me as your School Board Member so I can socially re-engineer the entire County because I have no other creative solutions". No, they are going to come up with reasons that people that can vote like, such as saving money (even if it isn't the real reason).

Most, not all, School Board Members use their seat as a stepping stone to other political positions. Liz Bradsher, for example, How long do you think it will be before she runs for County Supervisor?

Let's look at where the Clifton kids might be going.
(judging from zones adjoining Clifton on http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/handouts/pdf07/ElementarySchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf)

Willow Springs: "9" on Great Schools. 4% free/reduced lunch. 61% white, 25% Asian, 5% unspecified, 5% Hispanic, 3% Black
Union Mill: "9" on Great Schools. 2% free/reduced lunch. 71% white, 15% Asian, 6% unspecified, 4% Hispanic, 3% Black
Oak View: "7" on Great Schools. 6% free/reduced lunch. 65% white, 15% Asian, 8% unspecified, 7% Hispanic, 5% Black
Fairview: "8" on Great Schools. 8% free/reduced lunch. 67% white, 14% Asian, 7% Hispanic, 6% Black, 6% Unspecified
Sangster: "9" on Great Schools. 2% free/reduced lunch. 71% white, 14% Asian, 7% unspecified, 5% Hispanic, 3% Black

Hellholes, every last one of them. I bet MS-13 has a chapter at every single one of these schools.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2010 01:09PM by formerhick76.

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's look at where the Clifton kids might be
> going.
> (judging from zones adjoining Clifton on
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/maps/hand
> outs/pdf07/ElementarySchoolAttendanceAreas.pdf)
>
> Willow Springs: "9" on Great Schools. 4%
> free/reduced lunch. 61% white, 25% Asian, 5%
> unspecified, 5% Hispanic, 3% Black
> Union Mill: "9" on Great Schools. 2% free/reduced
> lunch. 71% white, 15% Asian, 6% unspecified, 4%
> Hispanic, 3% Black
> Oak View: "7" on Great Schools. 6% free/reduced
> lunch. 65% white, 15% Asian, 8% unspecified, 7%
> Hispanic, 5% Black
> Fairview: "8" on Great Schools. 8% free/reduced
> lunch. 67% white, 14% Asian, 7% Hispanic, 6%
> Black, 6% Unspecified
> Sangster: "9" on Great Schools. 2% free/reduced
> lunch. 71% white, 14% Asian, 7% unspecified, 5%
> Hispanic, 3% Black
>
> Hellholes, every last one of them. I bet MS-13 has
> a chapter at every single one of these schools.

Ha, ha.

However, for those who believe closing Clifton is more "social engineering" to disperse high-achieving children, the theory is less that Clifton students have to prop up Union Mill, Sangster, etc., but that (after the next redistricting) former Union Mill students will prop up Centreville, former Centreville students will prop up London Towne, former Sangster students will prop up Silverbrook, etc., etc.

Yes, those areas should be worried about what the Clifton closing will mean. The Southwest Boundary study is upon them.

How bout them Asians!

15% of our school population.
Over 60% of the TJ population.
Over 40% of the AAS/AP population.

The problem with setting up special programs for minorities is the wrong minorities are doing the work to excel!

These numbers are so illustrative. I was a teacher for many years in FCPS. At the beginning of each year every teacher had to write "goals and objectives" in support of the principal's annual plan. One particular year at Lee HS, in Springfield, the principal's goal was to improve minority achievement (which is pretty much every year anyway). So, I looked at my class list and noticed that about 20% of my students were Asian. So, I wrote that my goal was that 90% of the minority students in my classes would get a "C" or better. That was a pretty safe bet. So I take my statement into the Assistant Principal and show it to him. He says, how are you going to achieve this. I said, well since 20% of my students were Asian I could be pretty certain of success. His answer and I swear this is not made up was that I could NOT count the Asians as minorities since they were successful anyway. I argued that of course they were minorities since as an identifiable ethnic group they were a numerical minority. Of course, I lost the argument and ended up writing some trite statement.

I can't remember who said this but it's so true when you listen to FCPS spokespersons, "figures don't lie, but liers do figure"


Wan Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How bout them Asians!
>
> 15% of our school population.
> Over 60% of the TJ population.
> Over 40% of the AAS/AP population.
>
> The problem with setting up special programs for
> minorities is the wrong minorities are doing the
> work to excel!

krispykringle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These numbers are so illustrative. I was a
> teacher for many years in FCPS. At the beginning
> of each year every teacher had to write "goals and
> objectives" in support of the principal's annual
> plan. One particular year at Lee HS, in
> Springfield, the principal's goal was to improve
> minority achievement (which is pretty much every
> year anyway). So, I looked at my class list and
> noticed that about 20% of my students were Asian.
> So, I wrote that my goal was that 90% of the
> minority students in my classes would get a "C" or
> better. That was a pretty safe bet. So I take my
> statement into the Assistant Principal and show it
> to him. He says, how are you going to achieve
> this. I said, well since 20% of my students were
> Asian I could be pretty certain of success. His
> answer and I swear this is not made up was that I
> could NOT count the Asians as minorities since
> they were successful anyway. I argued that of
> course they were minorities since as an
> identifiable ethnic group they were a numerical
> minority. Of course, I lost the argument and
> ended up writing some trite statement.
>
> I can't remember who said this but it's so true
> when you listen to FCPS spokespersons, "figures
> don't lie, but liers do figure"
>
Yes, Asians are also minorities, even in Fairfax (except at TJ), but wasn't the AP's point that the goal was to try and raise the performance of students from ethnic groups that had been under-performing (Blacks/Hispanics)? If so, who was being dishonest - the AP or you? You sound pretty jaded.

The other thing is that Asians aren't identified as a separate ethnic category for purposes of NCLB and determining whether a school makes AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress) under the statute. So administrators have another reason to focus on how Blacks and Hispanics, but not Asians, are doing, on the assumption the Asian students will do more than fine. If the test scores for the Black or Hispanic students are too low, the school doesn't make AYP and people then claim it's a "failing school," which can turn out to be a vicious cycle even if most of the students are doing fine.

I want to make clear that my views are not merely directed at illegal immigrants, although no doubt about it, their children consume a significant amount of resources with unfortunately to date an awful return on the investment in terms of results. And is not directed just at black students, who tragically perform worse than any other minority group the country despite some Herculean efforts and lots of money spent by the education establishment. We have more and more children from all backgrounds being borne into single parent homes with minimal focus on education. This trend gets worse every decade. We are paying for it now, and will pay for it even more in the future. While superlative (?) minds like Ugh above are dismissive, the elephant in the room will not go away, especially in an economy that is increasingly knowledge based and global,where utilization of human capital and the flow of productive output is not be constricted by borders.

Taxes above has the right idea. If our schools (and I don't mean to blame them per se; the schools are in a tough position with the negative demographic trends) continue to pump out unproductive and poorly skilled people who have mostly been just warehoused, well, we are in for real trouble. Once a school reaches a tipping point in terms of the number of poor students, it is very difficult to attract good students. And the warehousing continues, on and on. And fewer productive people remain to pay for it all. This is not a general problem in Fairfax now, but it could be in 2020 or so. I think we will all have to adjust to a new reality, and indeed our social mores and what we expect from people have changed. The twin evils? First, sexual irresponsibility - call it a mean term but having kids and not really caring from them is just that - and second a shattered work ethic - again call it mean again but an entitlement mentality breeds just that kind of ethic, or lack of one. The schools and Government could be more realistic and honest about their work if they could openly acknowledge these twin evils - but they can't in our politically correct environment.

So again this Clifton school thing illuminates the problem. We don't have honest discourse, and we don't know what is really going on. By the way, if the answer is social engineering (I don't know that it is), be honest about it. Really, what is easier? Adopting a plan to disperse good students over time as broadly as possible, or magically attempting without smoke and mirror VGLA type assistance to improve the scores of kids from homes who scarcely care about education? Improve achievement from kids who regress and lose most of their scant academic progress they just gained during the year over each and every summer? Darn right the social engineering choice is much easier, and far more effective, too, especially if the objective is to avoid a rash of AYP failures.

Don't take any of this as a knock on teachers. In FCPS, there are lots of good and dedicated teachers and I am thankful for it. But it is time for honest intellectual discourse.

Quantum is very wise. Wish there were more people like you around and in charge of stuff.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I want to make clear that my views are not merely
> directed at illegal immigrants, although no doubt
> about it, their children consume a significant
> amount of resources with unfortunately to date an
> awful return on the investment in terms of
> results. And is not directed just at black
> students, who tragically perform worse than any
> other minority group the country despite some
> Herculean efforts and lots of money spent by the
> education establishment. We have more and more
> children from all backgrounds being borne into
> single parent homes with minimal focus on
> education. This trend gets worse every decade. We
> are paying for it now, and will pay for it even
> more in the future. While superlative (?) minds
> like Ugh above are dismissive, the elephant in the
> room will not go away, especially in an economy
> that is increasingly knowledge based and
> global,where utilization of human capital and the
> flow of productive output is not be constricted by
> borders.
>
> Taxes above has the right idea. If our schools
> (and I don't mean to blame them per se; the
> schools are in a tough position with the negative
> demographic trends) continue to pump out
> unproductive and poorly skilled people who have
> mostly been just warehoused, well, we are in for
> real trouble. Once a school reaches a tipping
> point in terms of the number of poor students, it
> is very difficult to attract good students. And
> the warehousing continues, on and on. And fewer
> productive people remain to pay for it all. This
> is not a general problem in Fairfax now, but it
> could be in 2020 or so. I think we will all have
> to adjust to a new reality, and indeed our social
> mores and what we expect from people have changed.
> The twin evils? First, sexual irresponsibility -
> call it a mean term but having kids and not really
> caring from them is just that - and second a
> shattered work ethic - again call it mean again
> but an entitlement mentality breeds just that kind
> of ethic, or lack of one. The schools and
> Government could be more realistic and honest
> about their work if they could openly acknowledge
> these twin evils - but they can't in our
> politically correct environment.
>
> So again this Clifton school thing illuminates the
> problem. We don't have honest discourse, and we
> don't know what is really going on. By the way,
> if the answer is social engineering (I don't know
> that it is), be honest about it. Really, what is
> easier? Adopting a plan to disperse good students
> over time as broadly as possible, or magically
> attempting without smoke and mirror VGLA type
> assistance to improve the scores of kids from
> homes who scarcely care about education? Improve
> achievement from kids who regress and lose most of
> their scant academic progress they just gained
> during the year over each and every summer? Darn
> right the social engineering choice is much
> easier, and far more effective, too, especially if
> the objective is to avoid a rash of AYP failures.
>
>
> Don't take any of this as a knock on teachers. In
> FCPS, there are lots of good and dedicated
> teachers and I am thankful for it. But it is time
> for honest intellectual discourse.

It's not honest intellectual discourse to discuss these issues in a thread about closing a single, under-enrolled elementary school, at the same time as you disclaim any real knowledge about why the school was closed. You should either explain the connection, and provide support for your argument, or cease and desist. Instead, you want to have it both ways, using Clifton as an excuse to pontificate, without making a strong case that anything you've said is actually relevant to an analysis as to whether the School Board's decision was right or wrong.

I think Quantum's discourse is VERY relevant to this closing issue. For those of us who are totally befuddled by this closing (the SB did not explain it rationally), the AYP explanation at least makes sense. When we can't understand the SB's reasoning, we have to try to "figure out" what they were really thinking (because we assume that they in fact are using some logic in closing this school).

Unfortunately, Quantum's logic resonates hugely for many people in this county. The border study that is coming up will be very telling in terms of this discourse.

Keep the truth coming.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> So again this Clifton school thing illuminates the
> problem. We don't have honest discourse, and we
> don't know what is really going on. By the way,
> if the answer is social engineering (I don't know
> that it is), be honest about it. Really, what is
> easier? Adopting a plan to disperse good students
> over time as broadly as possible, or magically
> attempting without smoke and mirror VGLA type
> assistance to improve the scores of kids from
> homes who scarcely care about education?

This does seem to make sense, and Stu Gibson and Tessie Wilson's recent letter in the Fairfax Times said in part: "Even though we have to make decisions about many things, the board must always focus on one thing: student achievement."

Was this a confirmation of quantums' theory?

Anyone here ever heard of Private School?

Why would anyone in their right mind send their precious children to a public school?

Public school is for the poor and uneducated,

Headmaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone here ever heard of Private School?
>
> Why would anyone in their right mind send their
> precious children to a public school?
>
> Public school is for the poor and uneducated,


Or the obnoxious. Maybe Headmaster isn't being affected by the economy like everybody else is. Across the country people are taking their kids out of private school and putting them into public school because of job losses and financial difficulties. This area will be no exception. Unfortunately, FCPS probably didn't take that into consideration either when doing their projections. This area has held out pretty well in the economy but that is getting ready to change. Anybody been watching the news lately and seen where the Pentagon is getting ready to lay off a bunch of people? That is just the tip of the iceberg.

Ugh - no, it is you that cannot have it both ways. You can't proclaim me a windbag and yet at the same time aver my lines of inquiry are faulty because they are not automatically accompanied by empirical data and concrete answers. Either I am, as you suggest, a windbag, in which case you have no further need to debate me or, as should be the case, either comment in a thoughtful way about how my inquiries are inapposite, or heck, attempt to answer them, especially since you have adopted a morally superior stance (you must be incredibly well educated, I assume at our nation's best schools?) in calling me a windbag.

I have neither the data nor answers on this difficult subject, yet in your world I am constrained from asking questions because they make you uncomfortable? Where are you answers? And further, in your febrile mind what are the questions to be asked? I note that in two posts you have issued nothing that would further any form of intellectual or political discourse. I would think it wise not to make a third such post.

Quantum - Your assumption is correct, but I don't hold that against you.

The questions that you pose are but a subset of the questions that one with only a slight understanding of the Clifton issue would pose, unless one is only interested in using the issue as a pretext to return to one's favorite themes.

To wit, FCPS has asserted that its decision to close Clifton is based on declining enrollment at the school and projections of further declines in coming years. For someone with a strongly pronounced moralist bent as yourself, this obviously invites questions as to why the enrollment at the school is declining, and whether it reflects negatively on the values of a community if childless families are now choosing to purchase (or remain in) large houses with more space than such families felt they needed in the past, or other families are having insufficient numbers of children to populate the school because they assign more priority to other factors than other families in the past, such as providing an only child with every advantage in life. You don't raise this question, however, but instead focus on other children, presumably in other communities, who purportedly are being inappropriately brought into the world and then raised in families that don't place enough emphasis on education.

Moreover, you do this without identifying any connection to the decision to close Clifton, other than to hint that the decision must have been motivated by a desire to spread high-performing children at Clifton (a precious, if diminishing, commodity by your own reckoning) to other schools. This will, of course, appeal to Clifton parents (who, like many parents, think highly, if not too highly, of their own offspring) and earn plaudits from those who now feel victimized by the School Board's decision. In making this suggestion, however, you fail to acknowledge that the schools that surround Clifton, such as Union Mill, Sangster and Willow Springs, are also very high-performing, as a result of which sending Clifton children to such schools to "shore up" the latter school would be akin to sending coals to Newcastle. And why would you do so, when it might undermine the relevance of your riffs on illegal immigration and sexual responsibility to the topic at hand? That's why I consider your posts on this topic selective and intellectually false.

Ugh---

Have you been reading this thread or only selectively reading it???

If you have been reading it, you would know that the decision to close Clifton was based on continually shifting assertions by the SB (the declining enrollment being just one and being based on pretty suspect projections given the history of such projections). You would also realize that the transfer of Clifton students to other great schools is likely to force students from those great schools to be transferred to other schools that are not making AYP (domino effect).

Your posts are undermined by your selectivity on this topic.

You are still not offering answers and neither did the SB. The SB has no idea what will happen to enrollment in Clifton. They did a pretty dang good job of projecting enrollment when South County was built---didn't they??? The Clifton residents have NO idea where there children will be going to school---and neither do you.

Ugh,

Have you read this thread?

FCPS Named in Lawsuit Over CES Closure Vote

Ugh---

Who really cares. One less school is on less uneeded building our taxes pay to maintain. Johnny and Betty will have to learn to get along with the black kids when they leave the bubble that is Clifton ES anyway.

read the whole thread Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ugh---
>
> Have you been reading this thread or only
> selectively reading it???
>
> If you have been reading it, you would know that
> the decision to close Clifton was based on
> continually shifting assertions by the SB (the
> declining enrollment being just one and being
> based on pretty suspect projections given the
> history of such projections). You would also
> realize that the transfer of Clifton students to
> other great schools is likely to force students
> from those great schools to be transferred to
> other schools that are not making AYP (domino
> effect).
>
> Your posts are undermined by your selectivity on
> this topic.
>
> You are still not offering answers and neither did
> the SB. The SB has no idea what will happen to
> enrollment in Clifton. They did a pretty dang
> good job of projecting enrollment when South
> County was built---didn't they??? The Clifton
> residents have NO idea where there children will
> be going to school---and neither do you.

You missed the point. Quantum loves to post moralist threads that use local events as a springboard (or pretext) to talk about how depraved other people are.

He's disclaimed any real understanding of the underlying data, or lack thereof, behind the School Board's decision. The simpler exercise would be simply to probe whether the School Board's methodology was flawed and, if so, say it's a matter of basic fairness to require more of our elected officials before they make such a decision. But that wouldn't be nearly as interesting to Quantum, because it wouldn't give him an excuse to tell us how we're all going to hell in a handbasket because there are too many children who don't fit his favored demographic profiles.

Ugh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> read the whole thread Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ugh---
> >
> > Have you been reading this thread or only
> > selectively reading it???
> >
> > If you have been reading it, you would know
> that
> > the decision to close Clifton was based on
> > continually shifting assertions by the SB (the
> > declining enrollment being just one and being
> > based on pretty suspect projections given the
> > history of such projections). You would also
> > realize that the transfer of Clifton students
> to
> > other great schools is likely to force students
> > from those great schools to be transferred to
> > other schools that are not making AYP (domino
> > effect).
> >
> > Your posts are undermined by your selectivity
> on
> > this topic.
> >
> > You are still not offering answers and neither
> did
> > the SB. The SB has no idea what will happen to
> > enrollment in Clifton. They did a pretty dang
> > good job of projecting enrollment when South
> > County was built---didn't they??? The Clifton
> > residents have NO idea where there children
> will
> > be going to school---and neither do you.
>
> You missed the point. Quantum loves to post
> moralist threads that use local events as a
> springboard (or pretext) to talk about how
> depraved other people are.
>
> He's disclaimed any real understanding of the
> underlying data, or lack thereof, behind the
> School Board's decision. The simpler exercise
> would be simply to probe whether the School
> Board's methodology was flawed and, if so, say
> it's a matter of basic fairness to require more of
> our elected officials before they make such a
> decision. But that wouldn't be nearly as
> interesting to Quantum, because it wouldn't give
> him an excuse to tell us how we're all going to
> hell in a handbasket because there are too many
> children who don't fit his favored demographic
> profiles.

Also, on the AYP point, you do realize, don't you, that schools have to meet dozens of benchmarks, many of which are based on demographic categories, to make AYP. Sending overwhelmingly Caucasian students from Clifton, or Caucasian and Asian students from a nearby schol to another school won't necessarily help it make AYP if other sub-groups (Black, Hispanic, lower-income, students with IEPs) fail to achieve ufficiently high SOL scores.

Ugh wrote:

"You missed the point. Quantum loves to post moralist threads that use local events as a springboard (or pretext) to talk about how depraved other people are.

He's disclaimed any real understanding of the underlying data, or lack thereof, behind the School Board's decision. The simpler exercise would be simply to probe whether the School Board's methodology was flawed and, if so, say it's a matter of basic fairness to require more of our elected officials before they make such a decision. But that wouldn't be nearly as interesting to Quantum, because it wouldn't give him an excuse to tell us how we're all going to hell in a handbasket because there are too many children who don't fit his favored demographic profiles."



This thread has been about probing the Board's methodology (plenty of posts on this) and it has been exposed as "flawed" to say the least. Now posters are trying to figure out why the board did what they did. Yes, it is interesting to discuss this. I think that you exaggerate Quantum's discussion with your "hell in a handbasket" statement. Quantum is merely lobbing a warning shot (and he's certainly not the first to do so). I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that two parent families who have time and interest in their children's educations are preferred in our society? What?---would you rather not have those families in our country?? I don't think there's a lot of doubt that family situation has a huge bearing on life success. And, BTW, it doesn't matter what color those families are.

Ugh wrote:

Also, on the AYP point, you do realize, don't you, that schools have to meet dozens of benchmarks, many of which are based on demographic categories, to make AYP. Sending overwhelmingly Caucasian students from Clifton, or Caucasian and Asian students from a nearby schol to another school won't necessarily help it make AYP if other sub-groups (Black, Hispanic, lower-income, students with IEPs) fail to achieve ufficiently high SOL scores.


>This is a fair statement. I do not know how everything is calculated. It still may be that sub groups will be divided in the boundary study. I do know that there has to be a certain number or percentage of a minority in a school for that minority to be counted towards AYP. Otherwise the minority is not considered. I admit that I do not know the specifics on the demographics at all of these schools. What I do know from reading these posts is that people do not think a school that is mostly Caucasian should exist in this county, regardless of other factors (transportation, community cohesion, etc.).

Beyond the actual AYP issue is the issue of demographics and perceptions about certain areas of this county. Quantum is not the only person in the county who thinks about these things. If parents see resources being spent on things that do not benefit their own child educationally, let's face it---they will wonder why they are paying such high taxes. If there is no benefit to working hard, paying taxes, and being responsible for your children, there is also no incentive for other people to try to do those things. The hardworking, taxpaying people feel that they are being taken for fools. The birth rate among responsible people will continue to drop and the birth rate among others who cost a lot in public money spent will continue to rise. Those who pay the most in taxes will refuse to pay more since they keep getting less (already happening for some time now). At some point, the system will break. If we don't think about this now, it is at our own peril.

The Clifton children are not expensive to educate. The community is not asking for renovation. The parents are very involved and the students will more than pay back in future productivity the costs of their educations.

Even further, the SB gave no idea of what the plan is for the Clifton building or where the children will go---thereby giving no idea of what the costs associated with closing the school are. It's hard to figure out how "cheap" this deal is without any information (SB is becoming famous for this). Now there's a lawsuit which will cost the taxpayers something also. The SB could have waited on this decision and given more information to taxpayers in the interim. That would have been the prudent course. Of course, a SB who votes for a 130 million dollar administrative building with gym facilities and marble floors isn't exactly the definition of "prudence".

http://www.virginiaruleoflaw.com/home/

http://www.redstate.com/pratsha45/2010/08/07/virginia-moves-to-become-next-arizona-in-immigration-debate/

read the whole thread Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread has been about probing the Board's
> methodology (plenty of posts on this) and it has
> been exposed as "flawed" to say the least. Now
> posters are trying to figure out why the board did
> what they did. Yes, it is interesting to discuss
> this. I think that you exaggerate Quantum's
> discussion with your "hell in a handbasket"
> statement. Quantum is merely lobbing a warning
> shot (and he's certainly not the first to do so).
> I don't think there's anything wrong with saying
> that two parent families who have time and
> interest in their children's educations are
> preferred in our society? What?---would you
> rather not have those families in our country?? I
> don't think there's a lot of doubt that family
> situation has a huge bearing on life success.
> And, BTW, it doesn't matter what color those
> families are.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Quantum gets off on posting Jeremiads, which he knows full well will always strike a responsive chord among some, just as the Clifton closing will give others an excuse to taunt Clifton parents about the prosect that their children will have to attend more diverse schools. At the end of the day, I don't consider one type of post more substantive or intellectually challenging than the other.

And, if he's going to make such posts, and pretend that they are serious reflections, he ought to ask what the declining enrollment at Clifton (a historical fact in recent years, even if the future projections are flawed) says about the social values of Clifton residents. Are there too many people who keep living in large houses even after their children have grown, or too many childless couples or families with one child who limit the number of children they have so they can satisfy their material desires? These questions are at least as relevant to the School Board's decision as Quantum's speculation that it's all designed to help some school, somewhere in the county, make AYP.

I'm glad you asked those questions about the selfish social values of people in Clifton. They do strike a chord. Yes, the Clifton people need to start having more children and not JUST pay taxes on those huge houses. It's their own dang fault that their school is closing. If they refuse to have children, their housing values will go down because there is no longer a community school and they will get to pay less taxes (hmm--sounds like they might win after all).

Ugh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> read the whole thread Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This thread has been about probing the Board's
> > methodology (plenty of posts on this) and it
> has
> > been exposed as "flawed" to say the least. Now
> > posters are trying to figure out why the board
> did
> > what they did. Yes, it is interesting to
> discuss
> > this. I think that you exaggerate Quantum's
> > discussion with your "hell in a handbasket"
> > statement. Quantum is merely lobbing a warning
> > shot (and he's certainly not the first to do
> so).
> > I don't think there's anything wrong with
> saying
> > that two parent families who have time and
> > interest in their children's educations are
> > preferred in our society? What?---would you
> > rather not have those families in our country??
> I
> > don't think there's a lot of doubt that family
> > situation has a huge bearing on life success.
> > And, BTW, it doesn't matter what color those
> > families are.
>
> I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that
> Quantum gets off on posting Jeremiads, which he
> knows full well will always strike a responsive
> chord among some, just as the Clifton closing will
> give others an excuse to taunt Clifton parents
> about the prosect that their children will have to
> attend more diverse schools. At the end of the
> day, I don't consider one type of post more
> substantive or intellectually challenging than the
> other.
>
> And, if he's going to make such posts, and pretend
> that they are serious reflections, he ought to ask
> what the declining enrollment at Clifton (a
> historical fact in recent years, even if the
> future projections are flawed) says about the
> social values of Clifton residents. Are there too
> many people who keep living in large houses even
> after their children have grown, or too many
> childless couples or families with one child who
> limit the number of children they have so they can
> satisfy their material desires? These questions
> are at least as relevant to the School Board's
> decision as Quantum's speculation that it's all
> designed to help some school, somewhere in the
> county, make AYP.


The enrollment at Clifton isn't declining. There are going to be more children attending this year than last year.

Your facts aren't any more real than mine, and it remains to be seen what the enrollment will be this fall. In any event, I didn't say enrollment at Clifton would continue to decline. I said it was a historical fact - which it is - that the enrollment had declined in recent years.

This reminds me of the disclaimer on annual stock reports:

"Past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance." Wow, is that ever true.

The same can be said for enrollment in any school in Fairfax. It's a bouncing ball---if you wait long enough, the enrollment will climb again. It has happened in many areas. Losing the land and facility may be short sighted.

One example is Vienna ES. In the 1990s, the School Board was on the verge of closing Vienna ES because it was an old school that served fewer than 300 students and was in a built-out area. FCPS didn't think there were enough students to keep three elementary schools in that area (Marshall Road, Vienna and Cunningham Park) open in the area. However, it backed off from that decision and there were 420 students last year.

Also, FCPS closed Masonville Elementary in Annandale, but it's now planning to build a new school (Lacey ES) in the same area because most of the nearby schools are so over-crowded.

I'm sure you could find other examples if you looked. Why the Clifton School Board representative would let this happen is beyond me.

Jack Dale is the de facto leader of the People's Republic of Fairfax County Public Schools (most commonly known as FCPS), the official leader of the county's tax dollars and schools - and therefore everything. He is the Chairman of the FCPS Defense Commission, General Secretary of the FCPS Party of Fairfax, the ruler of the county's taxpayer dollars, and the Supreme Commander of the FCPS Staff Army, the largest standing public relations machine in the county.

In July 2004, upon the start of his reign, the FCPS Strategic Governance was amended and now implicitly refers to him as the "Supreme Leader".He is also referred to as the "Dear Leader," "o' Tan One," "the Man with the Tan", and "Dalelissimo."

Dale is the centre of an elaborate personality cult inherited from the long-established culture of the FCPS Board. Those grounded in reality have been quoted as saying that FCPS schools deify Dale and his School Board. He is often the centre of attention throughout ordinary life in the FCPS. Many Fairfax County residents believe that he has the "magical" ability to "control the fate of school children" based on his level of tan-ness.

One point of view is that Dale's cult of personality is solely out of respect for the School Board or out of fear of punishment for failure to pay homage. Media and government sources from outside of the FCPS Staff Army generally support this view, reinforced by the Fairfax County government which hands over a majority of the county's taxpayer dollars to Dale and his adoring Board.
Attachments:

UGH: (by the way, apt name...)
"Are there too many people who keep living in large houses even after their children have grown, or too many childless couples or families with one child who limit the number of children they have so they can satisfy their material desires?"

Virtually all the developments in the county have - easily - homes that are larger than most homes in Clifton. The homes in my area are 2-4 bedrooms and are 2,000-4,000 sqft tops, which includes the basement - if they even happen to have one (many don't).

The fable of the 'rich' of Clifton is just that - a fairy tale smear campaign by a few. Many folks who live in developments have maids, lawn service, pest service and so on...we do it ourselves. Our properties cost more, but it's because of the land, not because they are lavish McMansions. I have been in many decked out homes in regular neighborhoods that far and away surpass the generally more humble, even old, home amenities in Clifton.

SO, if you live on a 1/4-1/3 acre and have renovated kitchens with marble countertops, screened-in porches, fabulous & lavish master bedrooms, baths and walk-in closets...and a beautifully landscaped and/or professionally lit home, a sprinkler system or any of the other many 'pluses', are you a racist? Are you an elitist? Are you satisfying your material desires? Maybe you should volunteer your 'extra income' to a taxpayer surplus fund instead of a trip to Ethan Allen...

This is just a case of wanting what is on the other side of the fence - the nasty smear campaign members are sad they don't have a bucolic lifestyle with a little bit of elbow room - but we gave up things to live this way - lots of physical labor, maintenance, frequent electricity losses, spotty cell service, no high-speed...and, of course, having to fight a lunatic groupd of 7 folks who are trying to say we aren't worthy of a school that is virtually the only public service provided to residents.

By the way - we have way many more kids than most people we know - Clifton or not.

From Fairfax Times opinion page. It isn't just Clifton residents that wants new Board Members.

"The Fairfax County School Board will stop at nothing to use our kids in the Standards of Learning game, resulting in total disregard for community schools, reasonable start times and bus rides, along with three lawsuits in the last three years. The most recent lawsuit was filed by Clifton Elementary parents to reverse the decision to close one of the highest-performing schools in the region. During the vote to close the school, the school board stated that the "renovation costs per student" were too high, even though the recent Capital Improvement Plan for fiscal years 2011 through 2015 indicated that there are many schools smaller than Clifton, and eight with higher renovation costs per student.

Be forewarned -- more schools will be closed without regard to sound financial, educational, community and environmental impact assessments, just because the school board says they "can do it." Clifton parents did not want their school renovated, but the school board insisted -- because the school board "knows what is best" for our children. We are sick and tired of the backroom deals, and when one school board member admitted to backroom deals on the night of the vote, I became sick to my stomach. Parents, I ask you: Is this any way to run a school system? We must bond together, voice our opinions and use our vote. It's not an option -- our kids are depending on it."

Kim Farrell, Vienna

NoToLiz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From Fairfax Times opinion page. It isn't just
> Clifton residents that wants new Board Members.
>
> "The Fairfax County School Board will stop at
> nothing to use our kids in the Standards of
> Learning game, resulting in total disregard for
> community schools, reasonable start times and bus
> rides, along with three lawsuits in the last three
> years. The most recent lawsuit was filed by
> Clifton Elementary parents to reverse the decision
> to close one of the highest-performing schools in
> the region. During the vote to close the school,
> the school board stated that the "renovation costs
> per student" were too high, even though the recent
> Capital Improvement Plan for fiscal years 2011
> through 2015 indicated that there are many schools
> smaller than Clifton, and eight with higher
> renovation costs per student.
>
> Be forewarned -- more schools will be closed
> without regard to sound financial, educational,
> community and environmental impact assessments,
> just because the school board says they "can do
> it." Clifton parents did not want their school
> renovated, but the school board insisted --
> because the school board "knows what is best" for
> our children. We are sick and tired of the
> backroom deals, and when one school board member
> admitted to backroom deals on the night of the
> vote, I became sick to my stomach. Parents, I ask
> you: Is this any way to run a school system? We
> must bond together, voice our opinions and use our
> vote. It's not an option -- our kids are depending
> on it."
>
> Kim Farrell, Vienna

An angry mom who wanted taxpayers to keep bussing her kids long distances to Wolftrap, Thoreau and Madison when Sunrise Valley, Hughes and South Lakes were much closer to her house. Hardly someone who can preach about the virtues of "community schools" and sound financial management, when she wanted the rest of us to keep paying to send her kids sent to far away schools. Her lawsuit failed, but she keeps writing letters. Big deal.

StoptheLies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UGH: (by the way, apt name...)
> "Are there too many people who keep living in
> large houses even after their children have grown,
> or too many childless couples or families with one
> child who limit the number of children they have
> so they can satisfy their material desires?"
>
> Virtually all the developments in the county have
> - easily - homes that are larger than most homes
> in Clifton. The homes in my area are 2-4 bedrooms
> and are 2,000-4,000 sqft tops, which includes the
> basement - if they even happen to have one (many
> don't).
>
> The fable of the 'rich' of Clifton is just that -
> a fairy tale smear campaign by a few. Many folks
> who live in developments have maids, lawn service,
> pest service and so on...we do it ourselves. Our
> properties cost more, but it's because of the
> land, not because they are lavish McMansions. I
> have been in many decked out homes in regular
> neighborhoods that far and away surpass the
> generally more humble, even old, home amenities in
> Clifton.
>
> SO, if you live on a 1/4-1/3 acre and have
> renovated kitchens with marble countertops,
> screened-in porches, fabulous & lavish master
> bedrooms, baths and walk-in closets...and a
> beautifully landscaped and/or professionally lit
> home, a sprinkler system or any of the other many
> 'pluses', are you a racist? Are you an elitist?
> Are you satisfying your material desires? Maybe
> you should volunteer your 'extra income' to a
> taxpayer surplus fund instead of a trip to Ethan
> Allen...
>
> This is just a case of wanting what is on the
> other side of the fence - the nasty smear campaign
> members are sad they don't have a bucolic
> lifestyle with a little bit of elbow room - but we
> gave up things to live this way - lots of physical
> labor, maintenance, frequent electricity losses,
> spotty cell service, no high-speed...and, of
> course, having to fight a lunatic groupd of 7
> folks who are trying to say we aren't worthy of a
> school that is virtually the only public service
> provided to residents.
>
> By the way - we have way many more kids than most
> people we know - Clifton or not.

Here are some of the ever-so-humble dwellings in Clifton (funny, but I couldn't find the barn or anyone mowing their own yards in these pictures):

http://franklymls.com/FX7122674

http://franklymls.com/FX6887227

http://franklymls.com/FX6830359

http://franklymls.com/FX6906817

http://franklymls.com/FX7404323