"Fairfax schools chief seeks raises for employees; supervisors critical
By Kevin Sieff
Tuesday, December 28, 2010; 9:52 PM
Jack D. Dale, superintendent of Fairfax County public schools, has announced a plan to introduce significant pay raises for school employees in next year's budget - a proposal that drew immediate criticism from the county's Board of Supervisors.
.....
"These are the people who make the system great and who make the programs work. But because of the high cost of living here, teachers are forced to take on two to three jobs, and many are considering moving to jurisdictions where they can earn more," said Michael Hairston, president of the Fairfax Education Association. "


Wow - many are considering moving to jurisdictions where they can make more? Then do it! If they can make more someplace else, then they probably would have done it already. But, wait, wait, it's not just a job for them, they do it for the love of the children...unless they can make 5% more down the road, of course. Sanctimonious BS!

A good teacher doesn't get paid enough to deal with all of the bullshit you have to nowadays. Fucking SOL testing/No Child Left Behind bullshit, helicopter parents, undisciplined children, etc.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

Then they should get a different job. Every post by anyone who is/supports teachers whines about pay, crappy kids, parents, SOLs, etc. So QUIT! No one is forcing you to be a teacher - and with the horrible pay and working conditions, why would you stay?

Show em the door,

Unlike you, the solution to a problem is not always quitting. If you quit everytime an issue arises in life, you will never ammount to anything. I suspect that decribes you.

I am not a teacher, but most I know have been doing this for quite a while. It would be foolish to "quit" now, not only because of our current economical situation and tenure, but also because most I know are not quitters.

In addition, do not be so naive. Dale is a politician. He submits these proposals knowing full well they will not be passed. It does, however, take the monkey off his back and places it on the School Board and the Board of Supervisors. It also gets idiots like you all riled up at the wrong people over something that will never happen.

Excellent! Hopefully, this goes through. My wife needs to make more money for putting up with those ADHD, peanut allergy, snotty-nosed, non-reading, GameBoy playing children. Yes, the same ones that live in a home with parents, but are not being raised properly by those parents.

If things keep going on the same path they're on, I'd hate to see the system 10 years from now. If the economy were better, I'm sure you'd see teachers quitting in droves, or heading back to school to get re-trained in another area / career field.

supporter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be foolish
> to "quit" now, not only because of our current
> economical situation and tenure, but also because
> most I know are not quitters.

So they won't leave because they have it so good compared to whatever else might be out there, yet they need a raise because of all the crappy people they have to deal with - especially parents and students.

Your inability to distinguish between leaving for a better opportunity (common among those with skills and intelligence, and exactly what FEA was saying) and 'quitting' (like a child giving up on a math problem) tells me much. I happen to think the FEA statement is an empty threat, and your comment above seems to bear that out.

In The Know Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If things keep going on the same path they're on,
> I'd hate to see the system 10 years from now. If
> the economy were better, I'm sure you'd see
> teachers quitting in droves, or heading back to
> school to get re-trained in another area / career
> field.


I think you may be right. My cousin's wife is a teacher. She's had it with all of the bullcrap and this will be her last year. She's moving on. No wonder China and India are kicking our ass.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

There are more high end automobiles in the parking lot of the ES my Daughter attends than there are in my office complex parking lot. Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Hummer. And these aren't even the administrators. Yea, pretty tough lot in life.

Jack (rapist) Dale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are more high end automobiles in the parking
> lot of the ES my Daughter attends than there are
> in my office complex parking lot. Lexus, MB, BMW,
> Audi, Infiniti, Hummer. And these aren't even the
> administrators. Yea, pretty tough lot in life.

Hey, when you don't have to worry about health care premiums, and you are set for life with a defined benefit pension, and can't be fired because of tenure, why not get yourself a nice ride? Just make sure to get the county to tax all those crappy kids' parents that you always bitch about.

And remember, it's about the CHILDREN!

Why anyone would want to teach is beyond me. All they do is bitch about work. My sisters are teachers and they never shut up about how bad they have it. They could not handle a real job if they had to.

I would have to agree with the comment about the high end cars in the parking lots. Its hard to miss the bright yellow H2 in the school parking lot.

Jack (rapist) Dale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are more high end automobiles in the parking
> lot of the ES my Daughter attends than there are
> in my office complex parking lot. Lexus, MB, BMW,
> Audi, Infiniti, Hummer. And these aren't even the
> administrators. Yea, pretty tough lot in life.

Same thing with my daughter's school, too. Actually, with her school, there's better cars in the student lot than the teacher's lot. Trust me, teachers are not making the money you think they do.

No offense but teachers still have the whole summer off and then compare their salary to people who work year round. What other job has that perk except maybe a lifeguard.

Yeah I know you cannot afford to live where you work, so what. Do you think all those people on 95 and 66 going into DC arent doing the same thing? As far as the pay I hope you knew what it was going in. I hear many of them talking about leaving but I see next to none that actually leave.

Please do not give me the "We take work home at night" because who doesnt these days. Go ahead and quit the teachers job and get a new job somewhere that has a profit/loss margin then let me know how tough you have it.

The school I pass with the yellow H2 is a middle school so I know its not a student's car (plus I have driven past it for four years).

Josey Wales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No offense but teachers still have the whole
> summer off and then compare their salary to people
> who work year round. What other job has that perk
> except maybe a lifeguard.
>

Correction. Teachers actually don't have the "whole" summer off. When school ends at / around the middle of June, the work approximately one more week to clean up the classroom and pack things away - so the room can be use for summer school classes, etc. by another instructor. Also, when school is going to start back up, the teachers have to be in the school a whole week before the students to prep the classroom.

What does this leave the teachers? 2 months off? That's not exactly the whole summer.

As far as the comments go in regards to the "nice" vehicles in the lots, you have to consider that the spouses usually work, too. However, their spouses work in better paying assignments.

I make 5 times what my wife does, yet she still takes the newer / better vehicle to school, because I want her to have the more reliable vehicle. I don't really care if I break down - I can call the necessary towing company to get me out of the jam.

If you're wondering how much teachers really make, the PDF of their salaries are on the FCPS site. Also, consider they haven't had any raises in 3 years - yet, their medical costs have been going up. Fortunately, I've been getting raises to cover these cost increases.

Josey Wales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No offense but teachers still have the whole
> summer off and then compare their salary to people
> who work year round. What other job has that perk
> except maybe a lifeguard.
>
> Yeah I know you cannot afford to live where you
> work, so what. Do you think all those people on 95
> and 66 going into DC arent doing the same thing?
> As far as the pay I hope you knew what it was
> going in. I hear many of them talking about
> leaving but I see next to none that actually
> leave.
>
> Please do not give me the "We take work home at
> night" because who doesnt these days. Go ahead and
> quit the teachers job and get a new job somewhere
> that has a profit/loss margin then let me know how
> tough you have it.


If being a teacher is such a doddle then why don't you go ahead and try it? Then you too would get the same t's and c's

Why are there so few
a) male teachers
b) scientists, engineers and mathematicians as teachers

Perhaps because its just not such as easy, money for nothing job as the mom's basement brigade seem to think

If it was so easy, with so many perks, more qualified people would be applying to do it

My view is that my kid's teachers have all been worth at least what they've been paid - I certainly wouldn't do it for their pay and conditions. Given the cost and time they've put into their own education and development, I'm getting a deal.

In The Know Wrote:
> What does this leave the teachers? 2 months off?
> That's not exactly the whole summer.

What planet are you on? 2 entire months off in the summer, plus every holiday, snow day, etc - all told they may work 190 work days per year. Compare that to a 'regular' job, which is more like 230+ working days per year. Are you seriously defending that?

Now wait for standard FCPS teacher response - parents suck, kids are obnoxious little shits, SOL's are hard, blah, blah, blah. If it's that bad, get another job.

I can't remember the last time I had two weeks off in a row, let alone 2 months off. And when I am off, I remain in contact with the office via blackberry and handle client questions and requests. After having 3 kids go through the public school system, my experience is that most teachers arrive to work early and leave when school gets out or shortly thereafter. That's generally not acceptable in the private sector.

if teaching is such as breeze posted:

"If being a teacher is such a doddle then why don't you go ahead and try it? Then you too would get the same t's and c's"


You get two months off in the summer plus assorted days and weeks off during the school year so stop complaining. If you think you are so valuable and underpaid then it is you who should quit and find another job. Every year we hear the same thing from teachers. It is my understanding the regular county workers, you know the ones who get two weeks off in the summer not two months, havent had a raise in four years so quit your bitching. What makes you so special?

In The Know Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Josey Wales Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No offense but teachers still have the whole
> > summer off and then compare their salary to
> people
> > who work year round. What other job has that
> perk
> > except maybe a lifeguard.
> >
>
> Correction. Teachers actually don't have the
> "whole" summer off. When school ends at / around
> the middle of June, the work approximately one
> more week to clean up the classroom and pack
> things away - so the room can be use for summer
> school classes, etc. by another instructor.

If you can't clean up a classroom and pack away its contents in four hours, you have failed at life.

In The Know Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent! Hopefully, this goes through. My wife
> needs to make more money for putting up with those
> ADHD, peanut allergy, snotty-nosed, non-reading,
> GameBoy playing children. Yes, the same ones that
> live in a home with parents, but are not being
> raised properly by those parents.
>
> If things keep going on the same path they're on,
> I'd hate to see the system 10 years from now. If
> the economy were better, I'm sure you'd see
> teachers quitting in droves, or heading back to
> school to get re-trained in another area / career
> field.

I bet you fart on kids' homework, too, at home when your wife isn't looking.

I hope the teachers get a modest raise, if only to attract slightly better candidates. So many of them now graduated in the bottom quarter of their classes from third-rate schools and are resentful of people who worked harder and can now enjoy a better quality of living.

Bilbo Douchebaggins Wrote:
> > Correction. Teachers actually don't have the
> > "whole" summer off. When school ends at /
> around
> > the middle of June, the work approximately one
> > more week to clean up the classroom and pack
> > things away - so the room can be use for summer
> > school classes, etc. by another instructor.
>
> If you can't clean up a classroom and pack away
> its contents in four hours, you have failed at
> life.

Actually, the teachers have the students do this at the end of the school year. All teaching ends around Memorial Day, and after that it's clean up the room, watch movies, field day, class parties, etc. All organized by parents, so the teachers don't really do anything. By the last day of class, those rooms are spotless - all done by the students on school time. The last 3 - 4 weeks of school are a joke.

" If the economy were better, I'm sure you'd see
> teachers quitting in droves,"

I have heard that argument for at least twenty years as a resident of Fairfax and I never see them leaving in anything close to a drove.

But if your wife is determinded to leave please do me a favor. When she submits her resume to a private employer list her demands as two months off in the summer, a week at Christmas, a week at Easter, all Federal and State holidays, a half day every Monday and oh yeah if it snows too much or is too hot she wont be coming in either. Let me know how many responses she gets for an interview.

Josey Wales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if teaching is such as breeze posted:
>
> "If being a teacher is such a doddle then why
> don't you go ahead and try it? Then you too would
> get the same t's and c's"
>
>
> You get two months off in the summer plus assorted
> days and weeks off during the school year so stop
> complaining. If you think you are so valuable and
> underpaid then it is you who should quit and find
> another job. Every year we hear the same thing
> from teachers. It is my understanding the regular
> county workers, you know the ones who get two
> weeks off in the summer not two months, havent had
> a raise in four years so quit your bitching. What
> makes you so special?

Can't read and stupid

If you'd actually read the post, you'd have realized that I'm not a teacher - just a taxpayer who reckons the teachers who actually teach my kids are doing a fine job and are worth at least what we pay them

Paying for good FCPS teachers is the most effective investment I can make in my kids futures,

I'd rather pay over the odds (which I don't think I am doing, especially if you compare salaries here with competing counties) and get the best teachers than aspire to be Louisiana or DC

Are there things we could improve with FCPS - sure. But refusing to pay enough to get the best teachers is not one of them

At the end of the day, the people who pay the bulk of taxes around here are professionals - typically with families. They've typically invested years in their own education, so they value education above all other services. They'll support all the other stuff, and even put off with being ripped off by Richmond, if and only if the education system stays at a high level. If that changes, they will move to metros where the education system is better, even if its more expensive.

I don't care how much time they have off. I would NEVER want to be a teacher. I would tell the brats to STFU and listen. They would be shocked since many parents let the kids rule the house.

Depends on how this works.

Teachers only? Yes. Yes, they get the summer off... but I've seen some of the asshole parents around here. Teachers have to put up with a lot of shit from little Johnny's mommy.

No raise to any other position. NOT ONE CENT to any administrative position.

Amen fcpsraise! Seems like there are more and more administrators each year to "help" the teachers. Raise for the teachers, not teh administartors. THOSE we could afford to lose and it would not affect the education of the students.

Unfortunately, this is not how it works I am sure. groan...

Show them the door Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hey, when you don't have to worry about health
> care premiums, and you are set for life with a
> defined benefit pension, and can't be fired
> because of tenure, why not get yourself a nice
> ride? Just make sure to get the county to tax all
> those crappy kids' parents that you always bitch
> about.
>
> And remember, it's about the CHILDREN!

What's this "Free Healthcare" benefit you speak of? If you check the FCPS site, the benefits for medical and dental (for a family) cost the school employee $400+ a month (based on 10 months of deductions).

If any of you really had a "true beef" about the school system and the salaries, you'd be better off channeling your revolution towards our tax system. After all:

- The tax system still taxes single individuals if they own a home the same rate for the home if it were owned by a family with 5 children.

- The tax system gives credits ($1,000, each - Federal) for children.

- The tax system (Federal and State) provides exemptions for children who are claimed as dependents on their parent's tax return.

- Meanwhile, back to the single person living in the house in Fairfax county. That individual doesn't get all these "tax breaks" for having children. Yet, the house with 5 children, have those children going to school at an approximate cost of $6,000 per year. This is $30,000. There's no way that family with 5 children have paid in $30,000 per year in local taxes to cover the public education for their children.

You are such an idiot. Teachers have spouses that work. Two incomes. Without a teacher, you wouldn't be able to change the wiper blades on your house.

K.I.S.S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Without a teacher, you wouldn't
> be able to change the wiper blades on your house.

WAT?

K.I.S.S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are such an idiot. Teachers have spouses that
> work. Two incomes. Without a teacher, you wouldn't
> be able to change the wiper blades on your house.

Apparently, there's a lot of people on this board who think that single and young teachers that are just starting out at $44,000 in salary are making enough to afford Jaguars and live in McLean.

show them the door Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Actually, the teachers have the students do this
> at the end of the school year. All teaching ends
> around Memorial Day, and after that it's clean up
> the room, watch movies, field day, class parties,
> etc. All organized by parents, so the teachers
> don't really do anything. By the last day of
> class, those rooms are spotless - all done by the
> students on school time. The last 3 - 4 weeks of
> school are a joke.


This is what happened at Lake Braddock HS, according to a friend's daughter. The daughter said her English teacher would leave immediately after the last class every day, they never wrote papers, and the teacher showed movies like "The Rookie" during the last 2 weeks of school.

"Paying for good FCPS teachers is the most effective investment I can make in my kids futures"

So go make a donation, who is stopping you? Instead you are one of those who doesnt want to spare any expense, i.e school bonds, to make sure your kids get only the best that others can pay for. Personally I think the school system is bloated with useless admin types and some teachers who should be fired instead of protected by the union.

To take a teaching job and then bitch about the students and parents makes no sense. You knew that going in or you didnt bother to find out. Either way you should have done your homework. What do you expect a parade in your honor every day?

I will say it again in case you are as dumb as I believe you are, try the private sector where result count and there is a profit/loss margin. Then and only then will you find out what a real job is.

Comedy give the raise to the fire fighters/cops/anybody else

One of the other dirty secrets about FCPS teachers is the on-the-side tutoring many of them do. They charge $40 - $60 per hr to teach your kid what they don't learn in school while watching movies and going on BS field trips.

I wonder how much of that money ever ends up on their tax returns? Damn little, I'm sure.

Josey Wales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So go make a donation, who is stopping you?

Tragedy of the commons, how does it fucking work?

Teachers are told to teach to test. The SOL's are killing the kids. School now is all about passing a certain test. What are they really learning? Not much.

Teaching Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teachers are told to teach to test. The SOL's are
> killing the kids. School now is all about passing
> a certain test. What are they really learning? Not
> much.

When has school not been about passing a test? Teachers who bitch about the SOL's are just pissed that they can no longer just teach whatever they want and not be held to any kind of standard.

BTW, I'm still trying to figure out how Mali and Cesar Chavez trumped Thomas Jefferson and the Continental Congress in 3rd grade.

BTW, I'm still trying to figure out how Mali and Cesar Chavez trumped Thomas Jefferson and the Continental Congress in 3rd grade.

---So are the teachers!

"Paying for good FCPS teachers is the most effective investment I can make in my kids futures"
Attachments:

Teachers are leaving ffx county in droves. Check out transfair the first week in May, and look at how many openings there are out there.

Can you name any other industry that requires a college degree that has a 30% turn over rate each year?

For those of you complaining about the unions protecting teachers - Virginia is a Right to Work state. FCPS does not have a teachers union. All they have is Virginia Education Association, which can politely ask the state to treat teachers better, and will provide legal advice when a teacher gets sued by an angry parent for failing their child.

You said to go out and look for a job where I get the summer off, christmas, easter, etc. I did. I got a Ph.D, and now I teach at GW.

Now I can be lazy and sit on my ass and teach what I like, because I have tenure. Unlike FCPS teachers who have to teach to the test. Which you believe makes teachers accountable for their ability to teach. Have you ever considered that perhaps the test isn't an accurate indicator of a teachers ability to teach when there are many, many, many factors that influence a students ability to learn. Just as a blanket drug policy - lock em up for life if they have any drugs on them - doesn't quite work out too well.

You reap what you sow - 15-20 years ago I used to be impressed with the fcps students I was getting. Now they're mediocre at best. Kids coming out of the tidewater area and Richmond area (you know, Richmond, the armpit of Virginia) are better prepared and better educated than the FCPS kids. Hell, even the NY, NJ, and CT kids are in better shape academically than fairfax is - and they've got teachers unions that are more powerful than the teamsters and the mafia combined.

It's a little more complicated than "if you don't like it, leave." But then again, you were probably a product of FCPS, so you weren't taught to think, just to pass a test.

I find a lot of irony in the comments made here. People post as if they're fiscally conservative - and, quite concerned about the pay raises for the Fairfax County Public School System. Yet, they end up voting for the first liberal candidates they see on the ballots in the elections held in Fairfax County.

Stop the madness !!

Many of the smartest teachers are heading out of the classroom; and really, who could blame them? There were a couple of them in my MBA classes, when we talked about why business school rather than a M.Ed I heard the stories. Low pay, arrogant parents and bureaucratic administrations. As time goes on the ones who don't have the skills, intelligence, and/or motivation to hop elsewhere are left. These are the ones left teaching your kids (mine are grown).

Give them the two percent, they deserve it.

Of all the folks bitching here, wonder who many are federal workers. Now THAT is a pay freeze I can endorse.

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

show them the door Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Fairfax schools chief seeks raises for employees;
> supervisors critical
> By Kevin Sieff
> Tuesday, December 28, 2010; 9:52 PM
> Jack D. Dale, superintendent of Fairfax County
> public schools, has announced a plan to introduce
> significant pay raises for school employees in
> next year's budget - a proposal that drew
> immediate criticism from the county's Board of
> Supervisors.
> .....
> "These are the people who make the system great
> and who make the programs work. But because of the
> high cost of living here, teachers are forced to
> take on two to three jobs, and many are
> considering moving to jurisdictions where they can
> earn more," said Michael Hairston, president of
> the Fairfax Education Association. "
>
>
> Wow - many are considering moving to jurisdictions
> where they can make more? Then do it! If they
> can make more someplace else, then they probably
> would have done it already. But, wait, wait, it's
> not just a job for them, they do it for the love
> of the children...unless they can make 5% more
> down the road, of course. Sanctimonious BS!


There is nothing more important in life than teaching and caring for our children. My son is a FCPS p.e. teacher and he dosent even make 50 grand a year. FCPS pays some of their maintenance personell much more than that.
A healthy pay raise is long overdue for these outstanding teachers that we are lucky to have.

Teachers are leaving ffx county in droves. Check out transfair the first week in May, and look at how many openings there are out there.

Can you name any other industry that requires a college degree that has a 30% turn over rate each year?

For those of you complaining about the unions protecting teachers - Virginia is a Right to Work state. FCPS does not have a teachers union. All they have is Virginia Education Association, which can politely ask the state to treat teachers better, and will provide legal advice when a teacher gets sued by an angry parent for failing their child.

You said to go out and look for a job where I get the summer off, christmas, easter, etc. I did. I got a Ph.D, and now I teach at GW.

Now I can be lazy and sit on my ass and teach what I like, because I have tenure. Unlike FCPS teachers who have to teach to the test. Which you believe makes teachers accountable for their ability to teach. Have you ever considered that perhaps the test isn't an accurate indicator of a teachers ability to teach when there are many, many, many factors that influence a students ability to learn. Just as a blanket drug policy - lock em up for life if they have any drugs on them - doesn't quite work out too well.

You reap what you sow - 15-20 years ago I used to be impressed with the fcps students I was getting. Now they're mediocre at best. Kids coming out of the tidewater area and Richmond area (you know, Richmond, the armpit of Virginia) are better prepared and better educated than the FCPS kids. Hell, even the NY, NJ, and CT kids are in better shape academically than fairfax is - and they've got teachers unions that are more powerful than the teamsters and the mafia combined.

It's a little more complicated than "if you don't like it, leave." But then again, you were probably a product of FCPS, so you weren't taught to think, just to pass a test.

+1,000

I taught in NY where there is a strong union and when I came here to Fairfax (and got a job making less) I was appalled. EVERY teacher there was really good and teaching was a good job. In fact, it was difficult to get a position---I spent 2 years filling in for people who were on leave working to get degrees---here I got a permanent job right away. Here teaching is just an adjunct job to a "rich" spouse's job---if the district is lucky enough to get one of those people who happens to be good. There I felt like a true professional---not just someone punching a clock and "teaching by the numbers". I actually had a principal here who complained that I was spending too much time at the school and that I should leave exactly when my contract said to leave (he wanted to use my room for other "after school" activities). I told him that I needed to prepare for my students and he looked at me like I was crazy. !! And one thing about unions---they don't just protect the teachers---they protect the students! The teachers bargained for class size limits and for only so many "special needs" students per class. They also bargained for only so many preps per teacher (3 was the max) in high school. This allowed teachers to be so much better and to ENJOY their jobs. Imagine a teacher enjoying his or her work and you have a great environment for the students. You get what you pay for.

As soon as the economy recovers, teachers will be leaving because the government sector will be lagging on the salaries. With no raises now, they won't be able to make the percentage raises needed to retain people fast enough when the economy recovers. The taxpayers will howl if the percentages are too great in any one year. It will take years to recover from this short sightedness now. If you don't have children, it will be your grandchildren feeling the effects. Attracting bright and innovative people is the key to great teaching. Federal mandates and standardized tests can never take the place of great teachers.

Here is the pay scale for Fairfax County Public Schools...

I'm wondering how they afford all those fancy cars everyone is seeing in the parking lots.


http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/fy11/FY11-194-day_teacher.pdf

They married well. You cannot afford to teach and live in Nothern Va.

Teaching Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teachers are told to teach to test. The SOL's are
> killing the kids. School now is all about passing
> a certain test. What are they really learning? Not
> much.


+10.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

There wrote "Now I can be lazy and sit on my ass and teach what I like, because I have tenure"

Wow - how rewarding.

Just wait - the higher ed bubble is going to burst just like real estate. You won't be able to send kids out from your school with 100K in debt forever. Amazing to me how these bastions of liberal thinking like universities can systematically screw generations with student loan debt. You are the subprime lenders of education. It will not go on forever.

Unlike FCPS teachers who have to teach to the test. Which you believe makes teachers accountable for their ability to teach. Have you ever considered that perhaps the test isn't an accurate indicator of a teachers ability to teach when there are many, many, many factors that influence a students ability to learn.

You reap what you sow - 15-20 years ago I used to be impressed with the fcps students I was getting. Now they're mediocre at best. Kids coming out of the tidewater area and Richmond area (you know, Richmond, the armpit of Virginia) are better prepared and better educated than the FCPS kids.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is Fairfax County the only school district in Virginia that "teaches to the test?" I was under the impression that all Virginia schools took the same SOL tests. I'm not defending the SOL system in Virginia - I think it is a colossal waste of time and money. But what are you seeing specifically that is differentiating FCPS from Tidewater and Richmond with regard to SOL prep and teacher unions/salary?

Rebecca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is the pay scale for Fairfax County Public
> Schools...
>
> I'm wondering how they afford all those fancy cars
> everyone is seeing in the parking lots.
>
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/fy11/FY11
> -194-day_teacher.pdf


Wow! Thanks for the info rebecca I had no idea how little these teachers were paid. I am a retired plumber and I made twice what the top pay is for these teachers the last ten years or so of my career. Of course I didnt have the VRS pension waiting for me at retirement time.

Is Fairfax County the only school district in Virginia that "teaches to the test?" I was under the impression that all Virginia schools took the same SOL tests. I'm not defending the SOL system in Virginia - I think it is a colossal waste of time and money. But what are you seeing specifically that is differentiating FCPS from Tidewater and Richmond with regard to SOL prep and teacher unions/salary?


Maybe their more relaxed southern ways make teachers feel more comfortable? Maybe teachers feel more like part of the community? Maybe they don't have so many bureaucrats breathing down the teachers' necks and putting up statistical powerpoints at meetings all the time? Maybe they actually make the teachers feel like they are cared for as people and not just as cogs in the SOL machine? Hmmmmm.

Since "No Child Left Behind" was passed ALL schools must teach to the test. Unless you send your kids to private school your kids are just taught to memorize data. America is and has been on a downward slide.

There are a few renegade teachers out there who don't teach to the test. Some are about to retire and are risking little---they really do want to do what is best for the kids. They actually try to figure out what makes the kids tick and look for interesting materials and strategies to support learning. There are not too many renegade principals or central office administrators (actually probably none of the latter). The teachers have to hide what they are doing if they are not teaching to the test (sad, but true). The younger and poorly paid teachers are the ones who take no risks and teach to the test to the max---mainly because they have known no other system and are still on probation. These are the teachers of the future and this scares me a lot. Yes, America is on a downward slide. We don't trust our teachers to be professionals (because we can't attract smart people into the profession anymore---mainly because the pay is lousy and the working conditions keep deteriorating). The best we can do if we won't pay them more is to put in tests to get some sort of minimum competency and then intimidate them with the threat of firing. This is not a good way to make anyone a professional. It also will not produce superior students.

show them the door Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There wrote "Now I can be lazy and sit on my ass
> and teach what I like, because I have tenure"
>
> Wow - how rewarding.

Sadly, you're so wound up, you don't get sarcasm. Let me ask you this, did you go to college (watching animal house doesn't count)? Do you know how the tenure system works? Aside from protecting free thought and pure research from short-sighted small minded individuals such as you, who like to lump all of academia into groups (I believe you said we're all liberals), it also has levels to it based on continued excellence in research and education. I'm a Full Professor, meaning that after i became an Associate professor, I busted my ass for the next 12 years developing an international reputation.



> Just wait - the higher ed bubble is going to burst
> just like real estate. You won't be able to send
> kids out from your school with 100K in debt
> forever.

Yeah we can, they're called doctors and lawyers. The vast majority of undergrads are on some form of financial aid (non-loan) or their parents are able to afford to cover their expenses. And last I checked, we don't hold a gun to these kids heads and force them to go here. I'm sure part of it is because the liberals have banned guns in the district for so long, but the other side of it is personal accountability - they made the decision to go to a private university instead of a state institution. They know what they're getting into. Isn't that what conservatives preach, accountability?

Amazing to me how these bastions of
> liberal thinking like universities can
> systematically screw generations with student loan
> debt. You are the subprime lenders of education.
> It will not go on forever.

Don't worry, i"m sure the next time we get a right wing, draft-dodger president, he'll start a war with some resource rich dictatorship, and all those kids that are in debt can simply enlist and get their legs blown off to pay off their debt.

But to you, I'm just some long haired, dope smoking literature or history professor pontificating from my ivory tower down on G street as I preach my version of socialism to the well-heeled sons and daughters of New York's movers and shakers, so what does it matter?

I teach in Fairfax County. I get frustrated when I read comments like the ones posted here until I think of how many teachers are lazy and incompetent. No wonder you think that about the profession in general.

On the other hand, the SOL tests have really hurt the students in terms of what is being taught. In the past, teachers made an effort to prepare kids for future grades and/or classes. Now, that is not happening at all. Students are just being taught the material they need to pass the SOL test (rather than the more rigorous FCPS Program of Studies), which is a very low bar. That is why they are having so much trouble as they move up from one grade (or course) to the next. Those of us who try to keep the standards high are labeled "mean" and "unfair" by the students and the parents. We are asked by our administrators why our D/F ratio is so high when the reason it is so high is because students are so unprepared and we are not willing to water down the course.

Class sizes have grown to the point where it is not unusual to have 30+ kids in a classroom, which is a huge difference from the 25-28 we had when I was first teaching. 5 extra kids changes the dynamics a lot and when you add in the fact that kids are coming with a much weaker background than in the past, it makes the impact of the additional students that much greater.

Fairfax County needs to re-assess the way they are running the schools. I agree with the GWU teacher that we are not turning out the type of student we did 10 years ago, and it is only going to get worse unless the teachers who are not doing their jobs are held accountable. Teachers should be teaching the POS, not just the SOL, but most administrators don't really know the differences between the two.

Interesting thing with the class sizes. In our area of FFX, we've been told that there has been a decent sized influx of kids - pushing some grades to the 28 to 30 range.

The influx is not due to new residents or immigrants or something odd. Instead, apparently the recession has caused folks to rethink the value of spending $15,000 or $25,000 a year for places like the Flint Hill School or the Potomac School.

I disagree with the total pessimism I'm reading about the FCPS system btw.

I have several kids in the FCPS system and I think the majority of the teachers they have had are more than adequate. Off hand, I'd give a breakdown of 30% top notch skilled professionals at their job, 50% adequate to good, and maybe 20% poor to downright crappy.

That being said it is no doubt that the key to continued success is keeping the talented teachers. It is a thankless task and quite frankly you couldn't pay me enough money to teach in a Fairfax County school. And I blame a lot of it on the parents - too many parents totally uninvolved with the schools and helping their kids learn. It is crazy that people think only the school should be responsible for their kid's education.

Everyone's point of view is different I guess... when I compare FCPS of today with the schools I went to in an poor rural community, well, I think my kids are very fortunate - I would have loved to have the education they are receiving.

On another note, I too have noticed that the younger teachers do seem to be more paranoid about the SOLS and their own evaluations. That's probably not good.

"Can you name any other industry that requires a college degree that has a 30% turn over rate each year?"

Sorry professor guess you missed it but who told you to go into such a profession in the first place? These teachers are akin to a soldier complaining about snipers, IEDs and suicide bombers and not getting paid enough. Except you hear very few soliders ever complain why teachers never stop complaiining.

The usual complaints I hear are:

I cant live where I work - Not many people do which is why 95 and 66 are packed with cars at rush hour

I cant put up with the kids and parents - Then you are in the wrong professsion.

I havent had a raise in three years - The rest of the county workers havent seen one in four years, what makes you better than them?

I take work home at night - Welcome to my world and most everyone else in todays economy

Teachers need to get a dose of reality. The times have changed. Employers do not just accept a diploma as proof you know what you are doing. They demand results and not just a GPA.

I don't think they are looking at GPA's when they hire teachers. Just certification---which is getting the education courses completed. But that's a story for another thread.

Josey Wales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry professor guess you missed it but who told
> you to go into such a profession in the first
> place? These teachers are akin to a soldier
> complaining about snipers, IEDs and suicide
> bombers and not getting paid enough. Except you
> hear very few soliders ever complain why teachers
> never stop complaiining.
>

So it's a safe bet that you've never served a day in your life, let alone even been around anyone in the military.

More bull shit from Jack Dale. This ass hole needs to go.Cut his management staff in half at Gatehouse and do away with Clusters.

CUT HIS PAY NOW.

Unfortunately, when you are a teacher, you have to teach the test. When you do that, you have to spend a certain amount of time on certain subjects....for example, a friend of mine is only budgeting 2.5 days teaching WW II. I think that is horrible.

Teachers are only paid for the days that they work. If you are on a 190 day contract, you get paid for 190 days. We don't get paid for the summer. People think that they are paid fairly should think again. Not only do you have to wet nurse kids, but you have to take material home and grade, talk to crazy parents, deal with IEPs and ADHD, gang bangers and crazy co-workers.

Just like every other job, there are pro's and con's to being a teacher. For those of you who don't teach, come sit in my classroom for a day......it will enlighten you.

This is the profession that we chose....I understand that, but that doesn't mean that we think we are fairly paid.

24 yr teacher.

When my son started third grade all his teacher talked about were the SOL's. She said they better get ready to take the tests once a year from now till the end of high school. Who says that to a seven year old? He did great on the tests but at what cost?

I teach him a lot outside of school so he not miss out on learning for the fun of it. I feel bad both for the teachers and the students.

The SOL's may very will be the death blow for the education system in this country, but that's a topic for another thread.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

Josey Wales Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I havent had a raise in three years - The rest of
> the county workers havent seen one in four years,
> what makes you better than them?


Josey appears to be an unhappy county worker?

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

If you believe in strict free market pricing then teachers today are adequately compensated, and possibly even overcompensated. Although the County continues to lose a fair number of teachers each year, it does not have much difficulty in recruiting new teachers to fill the vacancies. And the County has not had to resort to bottom of the barrel recruits or aggressive recruiting tactics in order to get those new teachers. We are talking about enthusiastic workers with advanced degrees (or working towards them) who can be recruited at a fraction of the costs being paid to recruit nurses and other high demand employees. It is probably harder for the County to find new school bus drivers than it is to find new teachers.

If on the other hand you believe that the appropriate model for judging teacher compensation is the same one used for CEOs and Wall Street types, they are undercompensated. This model is based not on what it would cost to replace the existing workers but what it costs to keep desirable existing workers from moving to other opportunities. Every year the County does lose a number of teachers who move to better paying jobs or who move to similar paying jobs with less BS. Many of these could be retained if the County paid more.

They better pay the teachers more. They already treat them like complete shit, and the same for the cops and firefighters.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

Bill N Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you believe in strict free market pricing then
> teachers today are adequately compensated, and
> possibly even overcompensated. Although the
> County continues to lose a fair number of teachers
> each year, it does not have much difficulty in
> recruiting new teachers to fill the vacancies.
> And the County has not had to resort to bottom of
> the barrel recruits or aggressive recruiting
> tactics in order to get those new teachers. We
> are talking about enthusiastic workers with
> advanced degrees (or working towards them) who can
> be recruited at a fraction of the costs being paid
> to recruit nurses and other high demand employees.
> It is probably harder for the County to find new
> school bus drivers than it is to find new
> teachers.
>
> If on the other hand you believe that the
> appropriate model for judging teacher compensation
> is the same one used for CEOs and Wall Street
> types, they are undercompensated. This model is
> based not on what it would cost to replace the
> existing workers but what it costs to keep
> desirable existing workers from moving to other
> opportunities. Every year the County does lose a
> number of teachers who move to better paying jobs
> or who move to similar paying jobs with less BS.
> Many of these could be retained if the County paid
> more.


Take a look at the rest of the country, and teachers in quite a few areas get paid double what they're paid here, for half the work, and yet the kids learn just as much.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

The students become innured to the SOL tests over time. They start threatening the kids in 3rd grade with the "if you don't study, you'll fail the SOL" business. They also try to scare the parents with it. By the time they get to high school, they have heard that line so many times that they could care less about the SOLs. Plus, the SOLs are a pretty low standard in some subject areas and in other areas they are a lot of memorization of facts (history is atrocious and science has way too much content and not enough depth). They don't test real skills that mean anything in life---like problem solving in a creative way (the tests are multiple guess) or ability to work with a team of people or research skills (nowadays you can look something up easily and don't have to memorize it!). The real world requires way, way more than the narrow skill set of an SOL test, yet the teachers are forced to prioritize test scores so the schools make AYP. Meanwhile, so much of the talent of this country is being undeveloped since teachers are not allowed to consider children as individuals and help them each develop their unique potential. Also, vocational and fine arts are getting the shaft when dollars are tight (to maximize the test scores). So much for future citizens who can innovate and create! That used to be the strength of America.

Yes, Fairfax schools are lucky in many ways because we still have some of the arts and vocational programs (despite efforts to cut them). We also have the spouses of highly degreed and experienced people who land here and happen to be teachers (and are highly degreed and high achieving themselves). Nevertheless, we are losing both teachers and students (drop out rates nationwide are at all time highs).

Most teachers got into the business because they wanted to help kids and they are dedicated to the idea of schooling for all. They get their rewards when they see students succeeding (and that doesn't necessarily mean on an SOL test). BUT, they also have to live on the income that they get. Lots of great people are not going into this profession even though they would like to---because of the low pay. The fact that the pay is getting worse does not exactly attract people. Meanwhile the rich are getting richer and bailed out, etc. It's easy to see where the security is in this country. Being a teacher is not an easy path in this society. If the only thing that we value is the private sector, we will get what we deserve---sooner or later the private sector will howl that the teachers are not doing a great job and that they need better workers (sound familiar---it is already happening). The private sector is trying to come up with cheap ways to "fix" the mess---like tests that can be "contracted out" to their beloved private sector which (btw) donates to political campaigns. It's like a landlord trying to raise the rent without fixing the plumbing. Sooner or later there will be few renters and the ones that are there will not care whether or not the place get trashed. The bitterness will be palpable and the students already feel it. Very few of them wish to become teachers.

"Those who can't teach."

"If you believe in strict free market pricing then teachers today are adequately compensated, and possibly even overcompensated. Although the County continues to lose a fair number of teachers each year, it does not have much difficulty in recruiting new teachers to fill the vacancies. And the County has not had to resort to bottom of the barrel recruits or aggressive recruiting tactics in order to get those new teachers. We are talking about enthusiastic workers with advanced degrees (or working towards them) who can be recruited at a fraction of the costs being paid to recruit nurses and other high demand employees. It is probably harder for the County to find new school bus drivers than it is to find new teachers."


If you believe that it's cheap to recruit and hire new teachers on a constant basis, you're mistaken. If you believe that an experienced teacher does not make a difference, you're mistaken. If you believe that it's easy to run a school when you have teachers coming and going, think again. If you believe that all of the "recruits" are wonderful, you are mistaken. If you believe that the public schools should be run as capitalist ventures, you are mistaken. If you believe that the armchair generals in private America should be running public schools, well, good luck.

Schools with stable staffs who can be there to develop programs and be invested in the communities have been the backbone of education. Even the teachers who no longer have a student in their classroom will see the student in the hallways and talk to them or see them in clubs, the library, the computer room or other activities. Students often seek out teachers that they have connected with in the past when they have a problem or need advice. This makes a huge difference. The student sees the individual commitment of the teacher to the larger school community and they get a BIG message. When they see new teachers all the time, they get the message that there is no commitment to the bigger process and the larger community. No loyalty (which seems to be rampant in our society anyway). And loyalty is a two way street. If the community is there for the public sector, the public sector will be there for the community. Of course now we have SB members who believe that community schools make no difference and that there is some amorphous "greater good" (test scores?) that we are supposed to aspire to. I guess computers and statistics and money have taken over and people are no longer important. The kids are getting the picture.

FY 2011 Salary Information: average teacher salary

Alexandria City $69,845
Arlington County $73,742
Fairfax County $64,249
Falls Church City $66,035
Loudoun County $59,376
Manassas City $60,899
Prince George's County $64,626
Prince William County $60,163

-----
Now for the benefits for FCPS teacher with a Hypothetical Salary of $60,000:
Social Security $4,590
Virginia Retirement System (VRS) $5,358
VRS Retiree Health Credit $360
Employees' Supplementary Retirement System $2,424
Life Insurance $168
Health Insurance: $9,630
Total Benefits 37.55% $22,530

Total Salary and Benefits $82,530

"Those who can't teach."


Huge generalization. Teaching involves using a variety of incredible skills. That's why people want to do it! It's a huge challenge. Teachers can do PLENTY and they do.

There are plenty of doctors and lawyers and etc. etc. who can't. There is a range in every profession.

Now for the benefits for FCPS teacher with a Hypothetical Salary of $60,000:
Social Security $4,590
Virginia Retirement System (VRS) $5,358
VRS Retiree Health Credit $360
Employees' Supplementary Retirement System $2,424
Life Insurance $168
Health Insurance: $9,630
Total Benefits 37.55% $22,530

Total Salary and Benefits $82,530


Social Security is required by law (so it should not be included here---everybody's employer pays that). The Employees' Supplemental Retirement System (ERFC) is paid by the employee in full so you can deduct that from the pay that you have stated in the first part. The health insurance needs to be qualified---is that the most expensive plan for a family? What is that? I take absolutely NO health insurance from FCPS and if that is what others are getting I think I should get some of that money!!! I also know that the employee has to pay into the health care (and it can be A LOT)---so please tell if that is the total cost or just the FCPS part and which plan that is. Also, please compare that to other employers who hire college graduates (like Northrup Grumman for example).

Also, to be fair, you need to include all of the data for all of the other school districts.

Finally, you may know that there is an attempt to get the employees to pay 5% into the VRS next year. If that goes through (McDonnell wants that), then the 3% "raise" will amount to a 2% loss for the teachers. So you will have nothing to complain about since the salaries will be going down (the county gives and the state takes away). If you voted for McDonnell, pat yourself on the back.

Lastly,

It's hard for a teacher to spend a health insurance benefit on a house payment. Complain to the medical sector about that cost.

FY 2011 Salary Information: average teacher salary

Alexandria City $69,845
Arlington County $73,742
Fairfax County $64,249
Falls Church City $66,035
Loudoun County $59,376
Manassas City $60,899
Prince George's County $64,626
Prince William County $60,163


Loudoun County actually has a higher pay scale than FCPS, so this average probably reflects the fact that Loudoun has been growing like crazy and adding new schools in the past few years---so they have lots of newer teachers who are lower on the pay scale.

If you look at this, Prince George's County has a higher average than Fairfax. Interesting.

My sister lives in NY with a Masters. She makes $70,000 not including benefits. The school system paid for her Masters and other classes she wishes to take. She is also in a union.

Fairfax teachers are UNDERPAID! Pay them more and she will find smart people willing to get a teaching degree.

Shame on Jack Dale!

Prince William County does not require their teachers to pay into a supplemental system so you can add the $2424 onto their average salary. Prince William also has a program where they match a percentage of a person's contribution to a 403b for retirement and Fairfax does not. So, in all fairness, that should be shown somehow in the Prince William salary---which would add even more to their salary. I know because I have worked in both counties. When I came to Fairfax, I thought I would see a huge increase in my paycheck. Imagine my shock when I got my first paycheck.

These things are not like comparing apples and oranges. Believe me. I also got money from Prince William County for not taking health insurance (a little dividend in each check for saving the county on that). I don't think they do that anymore, but at least their heart was in the right place.

Personal First Hand observations:

1. teachers for the most part are incessent whiners. Hope we use all the snow days up, if we dont, we should get out early this year.Or...we should get out on the same ending date despite being out 2 weeks for bad weather.

2.Dont know why I do this job? Try working holidays for years in a row, extra hours because others dont show up for work like other public safety and service workers have to do.

3. Teacher workdays, what a joke. Grades are put in before those happen, check the Malls if you want to find many of them on thase days.

4. Teachers looking for another job? The last couple of hires for us came from NY. No one was hiring anywhere between here and there.

5.Ill leave if I dont get a raise! Sure, drive a couple counties away so when gas hits $4 a gallon this year you can really have something to bitch about.

6. When the economy gets better head for that private sector job, a real shocker when you have to be on time for work and dont leave early during your planning period to go to an appointment without using any leave.

7. FlashbaCK 1980S. FAIRFAX COUNTY TEACHERS GET RAISES AND THE ENTIRE REST OF THE COUNTY DOES NOT. What happened next, incredible, the rest of the workers just went to work without threatening to "work to the rule" and did their jobs.

No one has anybody chained to a desk, if you dont like it here or your job, do yourself and everybody else a favor...leave. If you think for a minute you cant be replaced, then you have been in education too long. This whole country is suffering and we all need to take a bite of the shit sandwich.

Jack Dale is the ultimate spind doctor, preying on the fear that the school system as we know it will fall apart and your kids will become complete idiots as a result. Oh and as far as EVERYONE comes here because of the schools, Ask a few folks at Northrup Grumman, General Dynamics Etc Etc why they came here. Its the age old answer, plenty of work and lots on money.

need to look at pay scales, not averages Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FY 2011 Salary Information: average teacher salary
>
> Prince George's County $64,626
>
> If you look at this, Prince George's County has a
> higher average than Fairfax. Interesting.

It would appear that P.G. county doesn't have a "pay for performance" plan in place. They just dole out the salary increases regardless of the poor education they are producing.

Fairfax County doesn't have "pay for performance" either.

We all know that PG County performance has very little to do with the teachers there. Get real.

"4. Teachers looking for another job? The last couple of hires for us came from NY. No one was hiring anywhere between here and there."

Because nobody leaves their teaching jobs up there because they are GOOD jobs. They can be very picky about who they hire up there. Kids straight out of college come down here. Up there they get the experienced teachers---that's why the GW professor is seeing better product from up there.

"3. Teacher workdays, what a joke. Grades are put in before those happen, check the Malls if you want to find many of them on thase days."

Please give evidence on this one. Is this something pulled out of xxxx?

Any teacher who does this is taking a big risk of being seen and reported.

Grades may be put in before the work day, but teachers are required to attend meetings on those days. If they aren't there, someone will notice. Or should. Blame the principals if there are teachers at the mall because they are the bosses who should be checking on this.


I do know that many principals have been loose on this because of the lack of pay raises. They feel that they have to give the teachers something when their pay is going down. Complain to the SB on this one if you really want some action.

FY 2011 WABE data Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FY 2011 Salary Information: average teacher
> salary
>
> Alexandria City $69,845
> Arlington County $73,742
> Fairfax County $64,249
> Falls Church City $66,035
> Loudoun County $59,376
> Manassas City $60,899
> Prince George's County $64,626
> Prince William County $60,163
>
> -----
> Now for the benefits for FCPS teacher with a
> Hypothetical Salary of $60,000:
> Social Security $4,590
> Virginia Retirement System (VRS) $5,358
> VRS Retiree Health Credit $360
> Employees' Supplementary Retirement System $2,424
> Life Insurance $168
> Health Insurance: $9,630
> Total Benefits 37.55% $22,530
>
> Total Salary and Benefits $82,530


And don't forget, these folks work 9 months a year, get every holiday off and 8 "work days" where their customers (the students) aren't around so they can....what? On top of that, school days for students last 6½ hours and you have 30 minutes for lunch. Plus, they get snow days off or 1 or 2 hours off when it snows and schools close late/early or are completely closed, free parking at work parents helping out in their classrooms, a defined benefit pension from the county/state that allows them retire in their 50's with over 60% of their top salary and on and on. What a horrible life these teachers live NOT.

"6. When the economy gets better head for that private sector job, a real shocker when you have to be on time for work and dont leave early during your planning period to go to an appointment without using any leave."


It's pretty hard for a teacher not to be at work on time when there are kids sitting in a classroom waiting for them. The kids are not allowed to sit in the room without a teacher (teacher gets in big trouble for this). I don't know how you can say that the teacher is late for work. They HAVE TO BE on time. No way to be late! Kids are often late, but not the teachers.

Also, why should a teacher use leave for a quick appointment on planning time when the teacher will end up planning after school and putting in the time anyway? There are a certain number of contract hours---does it matter when they are put in and where? The teacher could (and probably is) planning while waiting for the doctor. Would you prefer that the teacher take off time when the students are there to go to the doctor? This sounds like a responsible use of time given that doctors are often not in or the teacher can't get an appointment at 8 p.m. at night. Maybe the doctors should respect teachers and bump nonteachers so that teachers can get the best appointment hours possible? Are you saying that teachers are irresponsible just because they are teachers? We all know that teachers are pretty horrible people (after all how can we attract anyone with any integrity to such a dismal profession) and they should be treated like factory punching nonprofessionals. No wonder this country is in such a mess and the kids don't want to learn. With people saying this crap about teachers, how can the kids respect them? The kids should figure they are just pieces of crap and dishonest greedy SOBs to be spat at (the parents already do that).

"And don't forget, these folks work 9 months a year, get every holiday off and 8 "work days" where their customers (the students) aren't around so they can....what? On top of that, school days for students last 6½ hours and you have 30 minutes for lunch. Plus, they get snow days off or 1 or 2 hours off when it snows and schools close late/early or are completely closed, free parking at work parents helping out in their classrooms, a defined benefit pension from the county/state that allows them retire in their 50's with over 60% of their top salary and on and on. What a horrible life these teachers live NOT."

Sounds like people should be beating down the door to get this miracle fantastic job! Where the heck are all these people?

In response to an earlier comment:

- Early Mondays. Actually, this only applies to the Elementary schools in Fairfax County. And, just because the students are let out early, the teachers have to stay until the normal end of the day time. Monday afternoons are usually reserved for lesson planning. However, the administration of the school usually prefers to have the teachers attend boring meetings instead. This, then pushes off the lesson planning for other times. About only once per quarter, the principal of the school allows the teachers to depart approximately 2 hours early.

About the only beneficial scenario that I could see where one would go into the teaching profession is if they were a retired military person. If you're 40 - 45 years old, and retiring from the military, then teaching might be a good option. However, if you have specialized skills, it might be way better to find a local Government contractor to work for instead. Then, you could make 3 times the salary of a teacher. So, being a teacher has to come out of passion for the work and not for the meager salary.

I think 30 minutes is way too much for a teacher to eat lunch. They should gulp it down in 15 and be forced to eat the cafeteria food (they are teachers after all). They should not get holidays off---make them work. They should go in on snow days also---just to make sure the parking lots are cleaned off. Charge them for parking also and give them bad pension systems because everyone else has horrible pension systems. They should be locked into rooms with children for at least 10 hours a day. Yes, this is the right way to treat people we entrust with the education of our children. I believe that teachers are treated this way in other countries---so why not here? If we do this, we will certainly get the best and brightest people into the profession and this country will be better off in the long run. We will surely only get people who REALLY want to be teachers to be teachers. The money saved by the public can be used for much more important things.

""6. When the economy gets better head for that private sector job, a real shocker when you have to be on time for work and dont leave early during your planning period to go to an appointment without using any leave."

It actually saves the county money if the teacher goes to the doctor on the planning time---if the teacher goes on teaching time, the county has to pony up for a substitute teacher (at around $100 per day) plus the sub will not do as good of a job just because they have no context for what is going on in the class. Your ideas are penny wise and pound foolish.

"Also, to be fair, you need to include all of the data for all of the other school districts ... " The FY 2011 WABE data are in a 51 page report at http://www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/wabe/

----------

"Social Security is required by law ..." Total Salary and Benefits of $82,530 is what a teacher making $60,000 costs the Fairfax County taxpayer, including the mandated social security payments. (Benefits add 37.55% to salary). Comparative benefits:

Alexandria City 30.31%
Arlington County 36.93%
Fairfax County 37.55%
Falls Church City 35.21%
Loudoun County 37.73%
Manassas City 35.96%
Prince George's County 37.10%
Prince William County 36.68%

------------------

"It's hard for a teacher to spend a health insurance benefit on a house payment." Interesting discussion question. Would you rather only the mandated social security be paid by FCPS? Increase salaries but employees fund their own insurance and retirement? That would certainly help employees who have outside medical coverage.

---------

" ... please compare that to other employers who hire college graduates (like Northrup Grumman for example)." WAY too much data for a simple blog post! How about salaries of new teachers with a master's degree?

Alexandria City $48,944
Arlington County $48,412
Fairfax County $49,433
Falls Church City $51,500
Loudoun County $47,763
Manassas City $47,368
Prince George's County $51,413
Prince William County $47,971

Think Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think 30 minutes is way too much for a teacher
> to eat lunch. They should gulp it down in 15 and
> be forced to eat the cafeteria food (they are
> teachers after all). They should not get holidays
> off---make them work. They should go in on snow
> days also---just to make sure the parking lots are
> cleaned off. Charge them for parking also and
> give them bad pension systems because everyone
> else has horrible pension systems. They should be
> locked into rooms with children for at least 10
> hours a day. Yes, this is the right way to treat
> people we entrust with the education of our
> children. I believe that teachers are treated
> this way in other countries---so why not here? If
> we do this, we will certainly get the best and
> brightest people into the profession and this
> country will be better off in the long run. We
> will surely only get people who REALLY want to be
> teachers to be teachers. The money saved by the
> public can be used for much more important things.


Speaking of eating in the school cafeterias, the teachers "joke" that the most important tool for the food servers in the kitchen is actually a box cutter. All the food comes in frozen - and, in boxes. Real mashed potatoes? Real pan pizza? Who are you fooling? Probably the safest and healthiest food in the cafeteria is the fresh apples.

up the chain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "3. Teacher workdays, what a joke. Grades are put
> in before those happen, check the Malls if you
> want to find many of them on thase days."
>
> Please give evidence on this one. Is this
> something pulled out of xxxx?
>
> Any teacher who does this is taking a big risk of
> being seen and reported.
>
> Grades may be put in before the work day, but
> teachers are required to attend meetings on those
> days. If they aren't there, someone will notice.
> Or should. Blame the principals if there are
> teachers at the mall because they are the bosses
> who should be checking on this.
>
>
> I do know that many principals have been loose on
> this because of the lack of pay raises. They feel
> that they have to give the teachers something when
> their pay is going down. Complain to the SB on
> this one if you really want some action.


Very much an understatement that principals have been loose on some things, most extra tasks that had been required but still part of the job have been dissolved to keep the troops happy. I think being at work the the required times or not using accrued leave is just plain fraud and it is pretty prevelent

Maybe we should cut their pay.

However, when the kids flunk out of college and end up at McDs, make sure you pay close attention to your change, since they won't have math skills either.

Quality does not come without a price.

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

"Social Security is required by law ..." Total Salary and Benefits of $82,530 is what a teacher making $60,000 costs the Fairfax County taxpayer, including the mandated social security payments. (Benefits add 37.55% to salary). Comparative benefits":

I could go along with the feds not requiring me or my employer to pay into Social Security. That would help. That change alone would attract lots of people into this profession. But it's not going to happen.

"It's hard for a teacher to spend a health insurance benefit on a house payment." Interesting discussion question. Would you rather only the mandated social security be paid by FCPS? Increase salaries but employees fund their own insurance and retirement? That would certainly help employees who have outside medical coverage."

I already fund my own insurance, but I do think FCPS should fund that for others. Most professional businesses do that. What's the point in going to college if you can't get a job with health insurance or a job that pays you enough to get health insurance? Not having health insurance can bankrupt you in a short time. That's why health insurance reform was such a big deal last year. That whole sector of the economy is going nuts.


"Social Security is required by law ..." Total Salary and Benefits of $82,530 is what a teacher making $60,000 costs the Fairfax County taxpayer, including the mandated social security payments. (Benefits add 37.55% to salary). Comparative benefits:

Alexandria City 30.31%
Arlington County 36.93%
Fairfax County 37.55%
Falls Church City 35.21%
Loudoun County 37.73%
Manassas City 35.96%
Prince George's County 37.10%
Prince William County 36.68%

This chart is not meaningful---except that Alexandria City is less. There is probably a good reason for that if we were to check into that one. The rest are all about the same (within a 2% range) so you're talking about very minor differences. What we need to know is how this level of benefits compares to people working in the private sector who have professional jobs (jobs that require a college degree). I would bet that the breakout is similar---so it's a nonstarter in terms of "great teacher pay and benefits". The private sector does things like stock options, bonuses, mathches to 401K's, etc.

If you think you pay too much to live in Fairfax County and that you are not getting a good return here, you are free to move to a cheaper area. I think you are getting a great value for your money here. Yes, the teachers should take a hit because of the recession and they are (no pay raises and probably a pay decrease). The question is---how far should this go? I do think the teachers should have health insurance and it's not their fault that health insurance costs so dang much.

R U kidding? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "6. When the economy gets better head for that
> private sector job, a real shocker when you have
> to be on time for work and dont leave early during
> your planning period to go to an appointment
> without using any leave."
>
>
> It's pretty hard for a teacher not to be at work
> on time when there are kids sitting in a classroom
> waiting for them. The kids are not allowed to sit
> in the room without a teacher (teacher gets in big
> trouble for this). I don't know how you can say
> that the teacher is late for work. They HAVE TO BE
> on time. No way to be late! Kids are often late,
> but not the teachers.
>
> Also, why should a teacher use leave for a quick
> appointment on planning time when the teacher will
> end up planning after school and putting in the
> time anyway? There are a certain number of
> contract hours---does it matter when they are put
> in and where? The teacher could (and probably is)
> planning while waiting for the doctor. Would you
> prefer that the teacher take off time when the
> students are there to go to the doctor? This
> sounds like a responsible use of time given that
> doctors are often not in or the teacher can't get
> an appointment at 8 p.m. at night. Maybe the
> doctors should respect teachers and bump
> nonteachers so that teachers can get the best
> appointment hours possible? Are you saying that
> teachers are irresponsible just because they are
> teachers? We all know that teachers are pretty
> horrible people (after all how can we attract
> anyone with any integrity to such a dismal
> profession) and they should be treated like
> factory punching nonprofessionals. No wonder this
> country is in such a mess and the kids don't want
> to learn. With people saying this crap about
> teachers, how can the kids respect them? The kids
> should figure they are just pieces of crap and
> dishonest greedy SOBs to be spat at (the parents
> already do that).


Based on what you are saying, why should county employees especially non teacher school employees use their leave for personal matters?.I schedule appointments for after work or put in a leave card. I guess if I could leave and not use leave without anybody questioning it I would too. I also laugh at the stream of teachers leaving during their planning periods to go off site to smoke and the others who everyday come back after leaving ,with their Starbucks or Taco bell.I guess they are working on their planning while standing in line, You can quit pretending they are wearing halos.

Cost Per Pupil has declined, but less so in FCPS than in surrounding school systems (2010 and 2011 data)

Arlington County $18,569 / $17,322 (93.3% of last year)
Alexandria City $18,003 / $16,983 (94.3%)
Falls Church City $18,116 / $16,729 (92.3%)
Fairfax County $12,898 / $12,597 (97.7%)
Prince George's County $12,267 / $11,611 (94.7%)
Manassas City $12,192 / $11,351 (93.1%)
Loudoun County $11,997 / $10,833 (90.3%)
Prince William County $10,383 / $9,577 (92.2%)

Based on what you are saying, why should county employees especially non teacher school employees use their leave for personal matters?.I schedule appointments for after work or put in a leave card. I guess if I could leave and not use leave without anybody questioning it I would too. I also laugh at the stream of teachers leaving during their planning periods to go off site to smoke and the others who everyday come back after leaving ,with their Starbucks or Taco bell.I guess they are working on their planning while standing in line, You can quit pretending they are wearing halos.


Do employees of other places put in leave to go smoke? Do they ever go to Taco Bell and put in leave to go there on their 30 minute lunches? Unless you are God, you should stop being so judgemental. I'm sure the teachers will receive their judgements in a fiery place for all these horrible things.

These teachers have to put in for leave if they go anywhere that requires any real amount of time. Lunch is only 30 minutes and planning time may be, at most, an hour and a half if they speed out of the parking lot. They can't get to Tahiti of anything like that. But, hey, if you really don't trust these teachers, blame the principals for not putting chains on them. I think people are looking for a rationale for not paying them more and it's just a lot easier to say that they are bad employees than to admit that they are underpaid.

I have no idea how an elementary school teacher can spend much time at Taco Bell.

As far as I know, they can get out on teacher workdays to go for lunch, but on normal days they are pretty confined to the cafeteria or a bag lunch. The restaurants love to have the teachers come in on teacher workdays btw---good business.

Please name me another "profession" that encourages their employees to take out legal insurance for the approximate cost of $50 per month? Yes, the school system encourages the employees to opt for this insurance in the event some angry, irate parent decides to sue the school system and the teacher. The school system doesn't have an "umbrella" policy to cover their teachers and employees.