I love the way the more responsible countries in the world take appropriate action on how to raise children.


You lunatic gun lovers...does paint ball also defend our freedoms?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8041320.stm

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love the way the more responsible countries in
> the world take appropriate action on how to raise
> children.

so the government should force an ideology on people?


> You lunatic gun lovers...does paint ball also
> defend our freedoms?

it's a game, fictional, not real, just for fun. what's next, are they going to outlaw little kids playing cops and robbers?


btw, congratulations on making an entire post without spelling errors.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

bfd

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bfd

it is a big fucking deal. i mean, come on, how long have you posted here and not made a single post without spelling mistakes?

btw, arent you going to address the rest of my post?


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

nope

LOL!!!


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2009 04:52PM by Gravis.

Oh stop, Vince!
There's nothing wrong with paintball battles. When we were kids, my friends and I had BB gun battles and we had a lot of fun. We even wrapped the firecracker end of bottle rockets with toothpicks and stuck the report down the barrel so we could shoot them like RPG's. Sometimes someone would be hiding in some thick brush and you could fire a bottle rocket in there and it would explode and the toothpick shrapnel would get them out of there pretty fast.

Paintballs are much safer and the kids wear protective gear. Kids can't have any fun anymore.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love the way the more responsible countries in
> the world take appropriate action on how to raise
> children.
>
>
> You lunatic gun lovers...does paint ball also
> defend our freedoms?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8041320.stm

How funny. They ban real guns. People are still getting massacred. Now, all they can resort to is banning 'fantasy' guns.

All the while, Hollywood keeps up their love of guns on the silver screen. I wonder, how much longer until Germany bans movies?

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How funny. They ban real guns. People are still
> getting massacred. Now, all they can resort to is
> banning 'fantasy' guns.
>
> All the while, Hollywood keeps up their love of
> guns on the silver screen. I wonder, how much
> longer until Germany bans movies?

if they go after media then they would have to ban every First Person Shooter (Halo, Doom, Quake, etc) game as well.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2012 11:15PM by Alias.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love the way the more responsible countries in
> the world take appropriate action on how to raise
> children.
>
>
> You lunatic gun lovers...does paint ball also
> defend our freedoms?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8041320.stm


oh i forgot about all of that black on black crime and accidental deaths caused by paint balling.... jesus christ dude, get off it

ok vince here it is. Even if guns did not ensure our freedom, or allow us to protect ourselves and our families, you have to realize there are shitty people in the world who do horrible things. If they werent using a gun to kill, they would be using a knife, a bat, or their hands. There has been murder and war for millions of years, getting rid of guns is not going to solve it. You may wish we lived in an ideal world (so do i) but its very unrealistic. The problem isnt guns, the problem is what people use them for. Fix the social problems, solve the gun problem, guns arent the enemy here.

Vince(1):
Attachments:

Kenny_Powers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok vince here it is. Even if guns did not ensure
> our freedom, or allow us to protect ourselves and
> our families, you have to realize there are shitty
> people in the world who do horrible things. If
> they werent using a gun to kill, they would be
> using a knife, a bat, or their hands. There has
> been murder and war for millions of years, getting
> rid of guns is not going to solve it. You may wish
> we lived in an ideal world (so do i) but its very
> unrealistic. The problem isnt guns, the problem is
> what people use them for. Fix the social problems,
> solve the gun problem, guns arent the enemy here.

I agree that there will always be horible people in the world....but with a bat...a knife...or their hands those terrible people wouldnt be able to kill so many people as they do. Killing with a fire arms is much easier then getting so close and personal as those other weapons....most gun owners are cowards...they couldnt kill with their bare hands if their life depended on it.

There's always bombs. Tokyo subway attacks, skinhead in England made a grenade with screws and nails as shrapnel, ordinary Iraqis making IEDs, all these in countries with gun bans.

As I said before, people will always kill each other, and with plenty of websites showing you the formula for anthrax, or the proper way to make a fertilizer bomb, I don't think a gun ban will stop mass murder.

i agree that weapons (especially of the explosive nature) can easily be created and are far more deadly than guns when detonated in a small area (a normal sized room). in fact, the concussive force of a small explosion in a room is enough to cause internal bleeding that will cause death in seconds (your lungs fill with blood). there are also chemical weapons that are easy to make that will asphyxiate people quickly and they will blackout after inhaling.

additionally, with guns and explosives there is a loud sound that will warn others to run while with knives, you can slit someones throat and as long as nobody sees you, there is no scream or warning to others. with a machete, you can cut someone down very quickly and move on.

vince, you fail to realize that people who go on killing sprees are determined and you simply cant stop them.


no weapons != no violence


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

>it's a game, fictional, not real, just for fun. what's next, are they going to outlaw little kids playing cops and robbers?<

ahem, yes.




The emasculation of the young American male proceeds apace in this installment of the Family Circus.
First, Billy, his hand in the form of a fake gun, cheerfully sprays hot lead in the general direction
of his beloved little brother. But once that ball-crusher Mom, with her short, modern, “career woman”
haircut, comes onto the scene, our little hellion is reduced to morosely downgrading his fantasy
to a harmless squirt-gun fight. (Presumably pretending to shoot a gun is verboten, but pretending
to shoot a pretend gun is P.C. enough to pass muster.) Mom may be happy, but we only need to look into
the sad faces of Billy and Jeffy (it’s fun to get shot at!) to know that an essential bit of boyhood
has been lost, and the encroaching feminization of our once-proud nation is unstoppable. As the
piece de resistance, the crudely hand-drawn date in the lower left is there as a stark reminder of what
fate awaits a civilization of gun-eschewing girlie men. Bil Keane: a lone voice of manly strength in a
corrupt and decadent world.

Incidentally, when I went to the Family Circus Web site to download this cartoon, I received an
error message that read “The page cannot be displayed: There are too many people accessing the Web
site at this time.” The idea of this site being overwhelmed by traffic is so laughable that, well, it
made me laugh.

http://joshreads.com/?p=65

Sorry folks you make no sense...most deaths by fire arms are spontaneous events...with little planning...never mind the time, training and materiel needed. Just try and compile the materiel needed in the OKC bombing and your ass will be in jail before you know it.

It is a fact..that if guns didnt exist...they'd be less deaths by violent means...a fact!

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love the way the more responsible countries in
> the world take appropriate action on how to raise
> children.
>
>
> You lunatic gun lovers...does paint ball also
> defend our freedoms?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8041320.stm

What is your point?

Rowsdower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I love the way the more responsible countries
> in
> > the world take appropriate action on how to
> raise
> > children.
> >
> >
> > You lunatic gun lovers...does paint ball also
> > defend our freedoms?
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8041320.stm
>
> What is your point?


Well..to be honest..I believe the 2nd Amendment was the biggest mistake the founding father's made...that's my point.

Well..to be honest..I believe not pulling out was the biggest mistake my father made...that's my point.

Vince(1) Wrote:

> I agree that there will always be horible people
> in the world....but with a bat...a knife...or
> their hands those terrible people wouldnt be able
> to kill so many people as they do.


Fail. You don't have to go further than the current news to see that you're wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_attack_on_Dutch_Royal_Family

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rowsdower Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Vince(1) Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I love the way the more responsible countries
> > in
> > > the world take appropriate action on how to
> > raise
> > > children.
> > >
> > >
> > > You lunatic gun lovers...does paint ball also
> > > defend our freedoms?
> > >
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8041320.stm
> >
> > What is your point?
>
>
> Well..to be honest..I believe the 2nd Amendment
> was the biggest mistake the founding father's
> made...that's my point.


Ok. That is an interesting position. What are your arguments to support your thesis?

That's what happens when your grandparents throw people into ovens alive and euthanize all retards. The slightest semblance of violence is forbidden as to not remind them of their past.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry folks you make no sense...most deaths by
> fire arms are spontaneous events...with little
> planning...never mind the time, training and
> materiel needed.

killing sprees are rarely spontaneous. "spontaneous" killings are generally one person killing another. so if one has a knife it's not that hard to stab one person.


> Just try and compile the
> materiel needed in the OKC bombing and your ass
> will be in jail before you know it.

the materials are common (fertilizer), the quantity to cause an explosion of that magnitude are not. you dont need a to blow up an entire building to kill a room full of people.


> It is a fact..that if guns didnt exist...they'd be
> less deaths by violent means...a fact!

that's a very unscientific statement that cannot be verified by any means. so this is a belief of yours. hate is your idol.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kenny_Powers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ok vince here it is. Even if guns did not
> ensure
> > our freedom, or allow us to protect ourselves
> and
> > our families, you have to realize there are
> shitty
> > people in the world who do horrible things. If
> > they werent using a gun to kill, they would be
> > using a knife, a bat, or their hands. There has
> > been murder and war for millions of years,
> getting
> > rid of guns is not going to solve it. You may
> wish
> > we lived in an ideal world (so do i) but its
> very
> > unrealistic. The problem isnt guns, the problem
> is
> > what people use them for. Fix the social
> problems,
> > solve the gun problem, guns arent the enemy
> here.
>
> I agree that there will always be horible people
> in the world....but with a bat...a knife...or
> their hands those terrible people wouldnt be able
> to kill so many people as they do. Killing with a
> fire arms is much easier then getting so close and
> personal as those other weapons....most gun owners
> are cowards...they couldnt kill with their bare
> hands if their life depended on it.

are you talking about shooting deaths in the context of war or just street violence? Because their arent really shootings going on where massive amounts of people are being shot in the street, its more like 1-3 people at a time. On the matter of it being too up close and personal, im not sure that i agree that its any easier to shoot someone than it is to stab someone. First off when you get into a rage where you are going to kill someone, i would think it would actually be easier (and more satisfying) to bludgeon someone to death, using a physical outlet for your anger. In addition to this, if you are a sane person, no matter whether you are shooting or stabbing someone, you need to pass a mental point where you realize what you are doing, commiting murder.
As for gun owners being cowards, i dont know about that, its not cowardly to want to protect your family and not suffer bodily harm from your attacker. I think most gun owners are pretty selfless in the sense that they are probably using the gun to protect not themselves, but their wives, daughters, sons, etc.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree, but atleast we can have a sensible debate about it, unlike with most other people on this board.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry folks you make no sense...most deaths by
> fire arms are spontaneous events...with little
> planning...never mind the time, training and
> materiel needed. Just try and compile the
> materiel needed in the OKC bombing and your ass
> will be in jail before you know it.
>
> It is a fact..that if guns didnt exist...they'd be
> less deaths by violent means...a fact!


this kind of made my earlier point, that most gun murders are spontaneous. Meaning that they are cause out of anger/rage. If this is the case, this just means that a gun was the closest/easiest thing to grab to get job done. I think that if someone really wants another person dead, they will do whatever is needed to do the job. If that means grabbing a knife, then so be it.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> It is a fact..that if guns didnt exist...they'd be
> less deaths by violent means...a fact!


Actually, that is speculation, not a fact.

Obvious Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > It is a fact..that if guns didnt exist...they'd
> be
> > less deaths by violent means...a fact!
>
>
> Actually, that is speculation, not a fact.


It is a fact....yet unproven..and never will be..neverthe less...a fact.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a fact..that if guns didnt exist...they'd be
> less deaths by violent means...a fact!

Prove it. If it's a fact, you can prove it. Now is your chance to do so. Prove that there would be less deaths by violent means if guns did not exist, and I will sell my guns tomorrow.

For clarification purposes, we will go by definition #5 in the entry for "fact" from merriam-webster.com:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact

Main Entry:
fact
Pronunciation:
\ˈfakt\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date:
15th century

1: a thing done: as aobsolete : feat b: crime
c archaic : action
2 archaic : performance, doing
3: the quality of being actual : actuality [a question of fact hinges on evidence]
4 a: something that has actual existence [space exploration is now a fact] b: an actual occurrence [prove the fact of damage]
5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality

If you cannot prove your statement as fact, please shut the fuck up.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

>Dat a fack....yet unproved..and ne'er will be.. yet evermore...a fack.<

Quoth the Gravis, nevermore



                    Fairfax Underground Secret Clubhouse
                    Left to right: Hosh Hosh, Cary, Meeper

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a fact....yet unproven..and never will
> be..neverthe less...a fact.

No, that's called a "theory." If you wonder why everyone thinks you're a retard, it's because you screw up simple things like this.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Mefisto wrote:

>No, that's called a "theory."<

Mo in the nature of a hypothesis, or mabye a conjeckture, Dumbo.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obvious Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Vince(1) Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > It is a fact..that if guns didnt
> exist...they'd
> > be
> > > less deaths by violent means...a fact!
> >
> >
> > Actually, that is speculation, not a fact.
>
>
> It is a fact....yet unproven..and never will
> be..neverthe less...a fact.


It would become a fact only if it were tried, and the results observed. Until then: speculation.

There have been studies about the effectiveness of gun control in reducing violent crime that provided evidence for the Pro-Gun Control set that a widespread gun ban will reduce violent crime. Since there is something to back it up, it's a theory.

There's also been studies that show how gun control doesn't do dick to reduce anything, and in fact makes things easier for criminals. My hypothesis of "put a gun in everyone's hand and give society a couple years to get it out of their system" hasn't been tested yet, so it's a hypothesis.

Now that that's cleared up, I would still like Vince to demonstrate his theory as fact.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

To debunk the myth of More Gun Control = Safer Streets look no further than the United Kingdom. Children in some schools are now wearing stab vests, as gang warfare has permeated the country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317307.ece

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html


Going along with what I said yesterday, the following information is available to any whackjob without a gun:

http://anarchistbible.blogspot.com/

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-make-fragmentation-grenade-248576/

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Feature-Article.htm?InfoNo=017431

http://www.geocities.com/pyroklutch/homemade_crackers.html

Vince(1) wrote: "It is a fact..that if guns didnt exist...they'd be less deaths by violent means...a fact!"

Mefisto wrote: "There have been studies about the effectiveness of gun control in reducing violent crime that provided evidence for the Pro-Gun Control set that a widespread gun ban will reduce violent crime. Since there is something to back it up, it's a theory."

The notion of guns simply not existing, per Vince, vs. gun control, per Mefisto, are two different things.

With respect to gun control, some studies purport to show it reduces violent crime, others that it does not, eg: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf (pdf)

Whether the weight of evidence is such that either proposition — gun-control-reduces-violence vs. gun-control-increases-violence — can legitimately be considered a theory rather than an hypothesis is an open question, imho.

Regardless, if we take Vince(1)'s words at face value, he was proposing some sort of counter-reality in which guns simply don't exist, rather than gun control, as such.

This is called the power of thinking big. Please don't try to squelch it with your petty bourgeois notion of "reality."

We've gotta troll....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2009 02:37PM by Furfur.

Yep, and this shit stopped working years ago.

no guns = no deaths by guns...if other methods of murder and mayhem were so easy..so popular they would be the weapon of choice today. Reducing the ease of murder and mayhem = a reduction in murder and mayhem. It's simple logic.

ahhhh..the good old defending my property rationale...gotta love it!

http://www.aolcdn.com/windoid/mothers_day.html

Vince(1) wrote: "no guns = no deaths by guns.... It's simple logic."

But in the real world, it appears that logic fails, as suggested by the first three links of furfur's 1:53pm post (eg, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm), and my previous post ( http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf ).

In other words, it seems like the "law of unintended consquences" may be at work: "A classic example is a bypass — a road built to relieve traffic congestion on a congested road — that attracts new development and with it more traffic, resulting in two congested streets instead of one."

In this case, your "simple logic" may fall short because, as a practical matter, it is impossible to achieve a state of "no guns," the necessary predicate for "no death by guns".

Vince, if someone broke into your house, what would you do?

Or, let's say you witnessed a murder, but the suspect got away. What would you do to defend yourself or your family?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince, if someone broke into your house, what
> would you do? What would you do to defend yourself or your family?
Attachments:

Yeah. Two guys could break in, steal his shit, kill his family, and Vince would be like, "See, this is exactly why guns should be outlawed!"

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince, if someone broke into your house, what
> would you do?
>
> Or, let's say you witnessed a murder, but the
> suspect got away. What would you do to defend
> yourself or your family?

It's a ridiculous hypothetical question. The truth is..if you are going to be murdered....it will most likely be from someone you know and love today. Crimes of passion..that are too easily accomplished with a hand gun around.

Vince...once again you evade a legitimate question.


With all this talk of banning weapons, a simple question: How would you defend yourself/family?

By calling 911...

Your assumption is that a fire arm is an effective self defense strategy..it isnt.

I knew you would say "call 911."

Someone invading your home still has enough time to do harm before the police arrive; especially if you live in the middle of nowhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2009 06:06PM by Furfur.

Furfur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I knew you would say "call 911."
>
> Someone invading your home still has enough time
> to do harm before the police arrive; especially if
> you live in the middle of nowhere.


You are a fucking genious...and I knew you'd say what you said. But the fact is we live in Fairfax County...hardly in the middle of no where. And despite all that...the odds are if you are going to be murdered...it will be by someone you know and love today.

By the way...911 ought to be the first response even when you have a fire arm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2009 07:15PM by Vince(1).

Vince, I respect your right to not own a gun. Why don't your respect my right to own one?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince, I respect your right to not own a gun. Why
> don't your respect my right to own one?

Because:
Attachments:

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no guns = no deaths by guns...if other methods of
> murder and mayhem were so easy..so popular they
> would be the weapon of choice today. Reducing the
> ease of murder and mayhem = a reduction in murder
> and mayhem. It's simple logic.

yeah because it's really hard to kill someone with a knife. you can kill someone with your hands or your teeth alone or use an electrical cord to strangle someone. i guess we should do away with all of those, right? it's simple logic.


Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Furfur Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > Someone invading your home still has enough time
> > to do harm before the police arrive; especially if
> > you live in the middle of nowhere.
>
> but the fact is we live in Fairfax
> County...hardly in the middle of no where.

the police dont have teleporters, it will be at least five minutes before they arrive at your location.


> By the way...911 ought to be the first response
> even when you have a fire arm.

if your arm is on fire, i hardly think calling 911 takes precedence over putting out your arm.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Vince(1) Wrote:

> even when you have a fire arm.
Attachments:

It's a simple concept...people dont kill..guns do! And while rope..sticks...rocks...sharp edged materiel can also kill...they are not the weapon of choice of murderers. Murders being lazy fucks will actually murder less if they have to go through the extra effort to use those non-preferred weapon of choice.

So..say it after me....guns kill!

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a simple concept...people dont kill..guns do!

• guns in themselves are harmless.
• guns loaded with bullets are harmless.
• people using guns loaded with bullets can be deadly.
• people in themselves can be deadly.

everything deadly requires a person. btw, people dont get killed by guns often, they get killed by bullets.


> And while rope..sticks...rocks...sharp edged
> materiel can also kill...they are not the weapon
> of choice of murderers. Murders being lazy fucks
> will actually murder less if they have to go
> through the extra effort to use those
> non-preferred weapon of choice.

do you have anything to backup that belief? right now you have provided no proof to support your argument.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By calling 911...
>
> Your assumption is that a fire arm is an effective
> self defense strategy..it isnt.


you assume that the government will protect you. Think of how many shitty cities in the united states have a wait/response time of an hour or more for emergency personel. look at New orleans, and see how good your government is at responding to a situation to save lives. You cant expect someone to hold your hand and protect you all the time, some times it comes down to personal accountability.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a simple concept...people dont kill..guns do!
> And while rope..sticks...rocks...sharp edged
> materiel can also kill...they are not the weapon
> of choice of murderers. Murders being lazy fucks
> will actually murder less if they have to go
> through the extra effort to use those
> non-preferred weapon of choice.
>
> So..say it after me....guns kill!


"and remember kids, guns dont kill people, dangerous minorities do."

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So..say it after me....guns kill!

Except, you know, when they don't. Like Ted Bundy.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2009 08:37AM by MrMephisto.

Kenny_Powers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > By calling 911...
> >
> > Your assumption is that a fire arm is an
> effective
> > self defense strategy..it isnt.
>
>
> you assume that the government will protect you.
> Think of how many shitty cities in the united
> states have a wait/response time of an hour or
> more for emergency personel. look at New orleans,
> and see how good your government is at responding
> to a situation to save lives. You cant expect
> someone to hold your hand and protect you all the
> time, some times it comes down to personal
> accountability.


As you are quick to point out when discussing military issues...it is the first responsibility of governments to protect it's citizens...not just from foreign terrorists but dometic terrorists also. And if owning a gun was an effective means of protecting yourself I might agree...but it isnt. It provides nothing more then a false sense of security. How does a gun protect a family member from committing suicide? How does a gun stop the accidental discharge of a fire arm? How does a gun stop an abusive/depresssed husband from killing his family? Guns encourage these incidents by their proximity..their ease of use..their immediacy.

Vince, you simply do not understand that when you relinquish individual rights to the government, you do not get them back. It also makes it easier for the government to continue to erode one's rights.

So the government outlaws guns for its citizens, in the interest of protecting them. That means only the military and police have access to guns. What's then to stop them from saying it's in the country's best interest to limit freedom of speech? Or the right to protest? Were you not paying attention during the entire Bush administration?

Do you think the American people should just bend over and be content with whatever the government gives them?

You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.” - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto WWII

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Oh hey, look at this. If the government had only outlawed guns for our military personnel, this would have NEVER happened.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince, you simply do not understand that when you
> relinquish individual rights to the government,
> you do not get them back. It also makes it easier
> for the government to continue to erode one's
> rights.
>
> So the government outlaws guns for its citizens,
> in the interest of protecting them. That means
> only the military and police have access to guns.
> What's then to stop them from saying it's in the
> country's best interest to limit freedom of
> speech? Or the right to protest? Were you not
> paying attention during the entire Bush
> administration?
>
> Do you think the American people should just bend
> over and be content with whatever the government
> gives them?
>
> You cannot invade the mainland United States.
> There would be a rifle behind every blade of
> grass.” - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto WWII


You are fighting a 50 year old war..call me naive, I am not as concerned about fighting off the Japanese as I am violence perpetrated by US citizens with guns.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh hey, look at this. If the government had only
> outlawed guns for our military personnel, this
> would have NEVER happened.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq

Show you how effective the "counseling center" was in performing its mission.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh hey, look at this. If the government had only
> outlawed guns for our military personnel, this
> would have NEVER happened.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq


Don't you think you might be overreaching just a tad with that comment? Outlawing guns for our military? I mean, I know you're frustrated with the whole Vince/theory/unsubstantiated rumour thing, but c'mon, man.

That's a sad story, though.

______________________________________________
I have had to change the addresses to my retaliatory blogs over half a dozen times.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh hey, look at this. If the government had only
> outlawed guns for our military personnel, this
> would have NEVER happened.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq


Now U.S. forces not only have to worry about suicide bombers and IED's, they have to keep an eye out for their fellow G.I.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh hey, look at this. If the government had only
> outlawed guns for our military personnel, this
> would have NEVER happened.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq


I can guarantee you..the military will take action to ensure this doesnt happen again. Civilian society should do the same.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How does a gun protect a family member from
> committing suicide?

so you are against people being able to choose to live or die?


> How does a gun stop the accidental discharge of
> a fire arm?

how does a car stop car accidents?


> How does a gun stop an abusive/depresssed
> husband from killing his family?

i guess we should outlaw bathtubs too because a mother in texas drowned all five of her children.


> Guns encourage these incidents by their
> proximity..their ease of use..their immediacy.

do you have any evidence to support your claim?


you know, for someone who is always going on about fixing the problem and not it's symptoms, you sure are eager after the symptoms.

---

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh hey, look at this. If the government had
> only
> > outlawed guns for our military personnel, this
> > would have NEVER happened.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq
>
> I can guarantee you..the military will take action
> to ensure this doesnt happen again. Civilian
> society should do the same.

---

dont worry about answering my previous questions because it's quite clear that you cant because you are wrong.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Who wants to go paintball Vince's house?

In order...

Vince, don't be thick. It's not about fighting off the Japanese. If the population of a country is armed, then it's not just the army you have to fight, it's the country as a whole. See also: Iraq, and why we're having such a hard time there. If China's 7 million plus army decided to invade mainland America, it wouldn't be just our 3 1/2 million soldiers they would fight.

Fairfaxdude, the same principle applies; by Vince's logic, if this person did not have a gun, then those other five soldiers would still be alive. It is not the soldier that killed them, but the gun. No guns = no deaths. Or maybe, just maybe, this lends credibility to my argument that is ISN'T guns that kill people, it's the individual behind the trigger.


Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can guarantee you..the military will take
> action to ensure this doesnt happen again.

US military personnel killing each other happened so much during Vietnam that they came up with a name for it: "Fragging." It usually involved throwing a goddamn hand grenade into an unpopular officer's tent while he was sleeping. Granted, it happens a lot less now-a-days, but there is no way to stop a person who intends to harm someone else unless you have the means to physically stop him from doing so.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that the other soldiers he shot were unarmed, considering that the counseling center was his choice of target. So how exactly do you "guarantee" that this will never happen again?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

To Vince:

What about folks who need to protect themselves? For legitimate purposes? Here's a little story:

For years I lived without a handgun. Never saw the need for one. Until one evening a man with a devilish look on his face appeared at our window. We had no idea who the fuck he was or what he wanted and it nearly scared us half to death. We called the cops but the guy ran away and they couldn't catch him.

Well needless to say, that weekend I went out and bought a gun. And I swear I will KILL him if he ever comes back and tries to retaliate against me or my family.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it, Vince!

Freehulfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Vince:
>
> What about folks who need to protect themselves?
> For legitimate purposes? Here's a little story:
>
> For years I lived without a handgun. Never saw
> the need for one. Until one evening a man with a
> devilish look on his face appeared at our window.
> We had no idea who the fuck he was or what he
> wanted and it nearly scared us half to death. We
> called the cops but the guy ran away and they
> couldn't catch him.
>
> Well needless to say, that weekend I went out and
> bought a gun. And I swear I will KILL him if he
> ever comes back and tries to retaliate against me
> or my family.
>
> So put that in your pipe and smoke it, Vince!

The Vince Solution would be to call the cops and wait patiently for them to arrive, while hoping that the guy at the window did not have a gun.

For me, at least, owning a gun is less about protecting myself and more about being able to protect the people I care about.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Freehulfer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Vince:
>
> What about folks who need to protect themselves?
> For legitimate purposes? Here's a little story:
>
> For years I lived without a handgun. Never saw
> the need for one. Until one evening a man with a
> devilish look on his face appeared at our window.
> We had no idea who the fuck he was or what he
> wanted and it nearly scared us half to death. We
> called the cops but the guy ran away and they
> couldn't catch him.
>
> Well needless to say, that weekend I went out and
> bought a gun. And I swear I will KILL him if he
> ever comes back and tries to retaliate against me
> or my family.
>
> So put that in your pipe and smoke it, Vince!



You sound like a very scared individual...just the kind that shouldnt have a gun. Go ahead...shoot and kill a guy looking into your window...and then just wait, your problems have just begun.

No duty to withdraw in about 45 out of 50 states (amazingly, Virginia isn't one of them).

Gravis..when you stop using ridiculous logic...maybe just maybe I'll start answering your questions. The comparison between deaths due to guns vs deranged mothers drowning their babies is ridiculous...it just doesnt hold water.

You guys are completely out of sync on this issue....A more recent estimate of the number of households with guns is presented in the 2001 National Gun Policy Survey of the National Opinion Research Center: Research Findings (Chicago: National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago, December 2001). Like the 1994 survey, the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) survey showed that in 2001, 35% of American households had at least one gun. More than twice as many households (13.6%) owned long guns as handguns (6%), and 16% owned both types.

2001. Recent data....

For fuck's sake, you mother fucking retard. It's not the law-abiding people that report their guns in surveys you have to worry about, it's the people who obtain their weapons through illegal means for illegal purposes.

The only way to get rid of every gun in America is a thorough door-to-door search of every residency in the country. A law forcing the population to relinquish their weapons will only be followed by people who are already following the laws concerning guns.

How about this: we won't compare the myriad of ways to murder not using a gun to murder with a gun, as long as you stop comparing law-abiding gun owners to criminals who use guns for illegal purposes.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Quote
Gravis
Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love the way the more responsible countries in
> the world take appropriate action on how to raise
> children.

so the government should force an ideology on people?


Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How does a gun protect a family member from
> committing suicide?

so you are against people being able to choose to live or die?


> How does a gun stop the accidental discharge of
> a fire arm?

how does a car stop car accidents?

Quote
Gravis
> How does a gun stop an abusive/depresssed
> husband from killing his family?

i guess we should outlaw bathtubs too because a mother in texas drowned all five of her children.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The comparison between deaths due to guns vs deranged
> mothers drowning their babies is ridiculous

of course, a depressed husband and a depressed mother are completely different! just so you know, one of her kids was 12 years old, hardly a baby.


the questions you cant answer just keep piling up!



"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2009 04:21PM by Gravis.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For fuck's sake, you mother fucking retard. It's
> not the law-abiding people that report their guns
> in surveys you have to worry about, it's the
> people who obtain their weapons through illegal
> means for illegal purposes.
>
> The only way to get rid of every gun in America is
> a thorough door-to-door search of every residency
> in the country. A law forcing the population to
> relinquish their weapons will only be followed by
> people who are already following the laws
> concerning guns.
>
> How about this: we won't compare the myriad of
> ways to murder not using a gun to murder with a
> gun, as long as you stop comparing law-abiding gun
> owners to criminals who use guns for illegal
> purposes.


Agreed.

Take away all knives, axes, baseball bats, clubs with nails in them too.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2009 04:24PM by ITRADE.

ITRADE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Take away all ... clubs with nails in them too.

Whoa whoa whoa... Let's not be rash about this. Clubs with nails have many peaceful applications.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

LOL


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
Attachments:

Well you didnt dissapoint me Grufus...back on ignore you go!

ITRADE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2001. Recent data....

the most recent...dont beleive it..find your own. Gun nuts are a small but vocal group.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For fuck's sake, you mother fucking retard. It's
> not the law-abiding people that report their guns
> in surveys you have to worry about, it's the
> people who obtain their weapons through illegal
> means for illegal purposes.
>
> The only way to get rid of every gun in America is
> a thorough door-to-door search of every residency
> in the country. A law forcing the population to
> relinquish their weapons will only be followed by
> people who are already following the laws
> concerning guns.
>
> How about this: we won't compare the myriad of
> ways to murder not using a gun to murder with a
> gun, as long as you stop comparing law-abiding gun
> owners to criminals who use guns for illegal
> purposes.


Im sure if this great country decided to do something serious about getting rid of the senseless violence guns create...it could be done.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well you didnt dissapoint me Grufus...back on
> ignore you go!

edit by Cary: no l33t phorum CSS h4x please! really, you're just going to make me turn off full HTML


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2009 07:12PM by Cary.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > For fuck's sake, you mother fucking retard.
> It's
> > not the law-abiding people that report their
> guns
> > in surveys you have to worry about, it's the
> > people who obtain their weapons through illegal
> > means for illegal purposes.
> >
> > The only way to get rid of every gun in America
> is
> > a thorough door-to-door search of every
> residency
> > in the country. A law forcing the population
> to
> > relinquish their weapons will only be followed
> by
> > people who are already following the laws
> > concerning guns.
> >
> > How about this: we won't compare the myriad of
> > ways to murder not using a gun to murder with a
> > gun, as long as you stop comparing law-abiding
> gun
> > owners to criminals who use guns for illegal
> > purposes.
>
>
> Im sure if this great country decided to do
> something serious about getting rid of the
> senseless violence guns create...it could be done.

Yes, but I'm grateful this great country believes that having individual freedoms is worth the problems it sometimes causes, and that we're willing to take the good with the bad and not compromise our beliefs, even though they may not always be popular with everyone. Nothing is perfect and nothing ever will be.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Gruvis...We can all see you for what you are..a scared little dick..afraid of any idea you dont agree with.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > For fuck's sake, you mother fucking retard.
> It's
> > not the law-abiding people that report their
> guns
> > in surveys you have to worry about, it's the
> > people who obtain their weapons through illegal
> > means for illegal purposes.
> >
> > The only way to get rid of every gun in America
> is
> > a thorough door-to-door search of every
> residency
> > in the country. A law forcing the population
> to
> > relinquish their weapons will only be followed
> by
> > people who are already following the laws
> > concerning guns.
> >
> > How about this: we won't compare the myriad of
> > ways to murder not using a gun to murder with a
> > gun, as long as you stop comparing law-abiding
> gun
> > owners to criminals who use guns for illegal
> > purposes.
>
>
> Im sure if this great country decided to do
> something serious about getting rid of the
> senseless violence guns create...it could be done.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ITRADE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 2001. Recent data....
>
> the most recent...dont beleive it..find your own.
> Gun nuts are a small but vocal group.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well you didnt dissapoint me Grufus...back on
> ignore you go!

Well, my special order just came in. I've been waiting six weeks for this...
Background check only took 20 minutes.



I shall name it......................Vince.
Attachments:

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gruvis...We can all see you for what you are..a
> scared little dick..afraid of any idea you dont
> agree with.

or perhaps it's you who are afraid to answer my questions. ;)


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2009 09:41PM by Gravis.

Furfur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, my special order just came in. I've been
> waiting six weeks for this...
> Background check only took 20 minutes.
>
>
>
> I shall name it......................Vince.

I just bought a Benelli Nova. Vince sounds like a good name for that gun, as well.

My Springfield XD40's name is Susan.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto said:

"I just bought a Benelli Nova."


boooo nothing a Mossberg can't do! :-)

Vince(1) Wrote:
> As you are quick to point out when discussing
> military issues...it is the first responsibility
> of governments to protect it's citizens...not just
> from foreign terrorists but dometic terrorists
> also. And if owning a gun was an effective means
> of protecting yourself I might agree...but it
> isnt.

where are you getting this info? was there a scientific study on the false sense of security that guns provide? did i miss something? how is this a fact and not your opinion? We have showed you several studies linking gun ownership to lower crime rates in multiple states/countries around the world
>
It provides nothing more then a false sense
> of security. How does a gun protect a family
> member from committing suicide?
how do we protect against that family member swallowing a bottle of tylenal?

>How does a gun
> stop the accidental discharge of a fire arm?
how do we stop someone from accidently tripping with a knife in their hand?

> How
> does a gun stop an abusive/depresssed husband from
> killing his family? Guns encourage these
> incidents by their proximity..their ease of
> use..their immediacy.

guns are the tool, nothing more, its how that tool is used or abused by people. Yes guns are probably one of the most dangerous inventions in human history, but you cant unmake the gun, it will never fall out of existance unless we find a new way to kill. If thats the case, than i would like to be one of the people with a gun personally.

Furfur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto said:
>
> "I just bought a Benelli Nova."
>
>
> boooo nothing a Mossberg can't do! :-)

Except be more awesome, maybe.

EDIT: Hey, I just thought of something. Would you like to get really drunk and play with loaded guns?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2009 12:16AM by MrMephisto.

Benelli is a lot better quality...especially in the slide action. Just can't get over the price difference, especially the semis.

since this started as an anti-gun thread, can we turn it around? i want to buy a good handgun but dont know what to go with. Im looking for a cheap but good quality semi auto handgun. any thoughts?