Are the taxpayers obligated to pay teachers more because they have degrees of higher learning? Is a degree a guarantee of a higher wage?

I see a college education as an intellectual investment but not a economic sure thing. We all know a sociology major or two who are working at Toys R Us or the physics major who drives a cab. Or how about the young women who go to art or fashion school but face an unrealistic job market? SHould taxpayers assume the burden of these people education choices and pay them more?

Why are teachers different and why do they use their degree to justify higher pay regardless of budgetary realities? I am thinking that this talk from the teachers themselves of "how much teachers deserve" is bascially a plea for a pay subsidy.

I also would guess that many of the counties youth come to school already literate, given the highly educated and professional demographic of the county. Where are the big challenges for FCPS teachers?

I bet the next five posters on this forum would be just as qualified to teach in FCPS if given the proper manuals and materials.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2011 12:37PM by WingNut.

I think it's hysterical that people think there is a "proper manual and materials" and that's all there is to teaching (anyone can do it).

Let me ask you---are you a parent? Is there a "manual and materials" and anyone can do it? All the kids turn out the same because the parents are using that manual? Heck, it's easy. Yeah, just put a warm body in front of the class.

Look, if there were a magic pill to give every kid, we'd use it. If you don't understand why teachers are different and why there are actually challenges to the job, you need to go back to school. Would you want them to just give a manual and some materials to your doctor? Heck, your body is the same as everyone else's anyway and you probably are already healthy anyway.

It's not even worth posting on this one.

I would never home school a kid ( I am not a parent anyway) but I've seen a few home schooled kids who are absolutely brilliant but for the lack of social interaction.

Tell us about what is so difficult about teaching? I get a feeling sometimes it's all part of the same college tuition and textbook racket.What is so special and difficult about your job?

If you have a Masters or PhD, great for you, but we the taxpayer shouldn't guarrantee you anything unless it is based on your performance and ability.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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do you have a phd? getting one is hard. very hard. and very time consuming, and deonstrates a mastery of the chosen field. your example of sociology majors working at toys r us is a fallacy...they aren't USING their degree.

Presumably, the teacher is using their degree in the correct field -- the degree exemplifies ability, thus raising their base pay. Frankly, you should be thrilled a PhD deigns to teach at high school -- their talents are better served elsewhere.

y'know, it's amazing to see so many ppl bitch and moan about the fact we have the BEST overall school system in the nation o_0

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would never home school a kid ( I am not a
> parent anyway) but I've seen a few home schooled
> kids who are absolutely brilliant but for the lack
> of social interaction.
>
> Tell us about what is so difficult about teaching?
> I get a feeling sometimes it's all part of the
> same college tuition and textbook racket.What is
> so special and difficult about your job?
>
> If you have a Masters or PhD, great for you, but
> we the taxpayer shouldn't guarrantee you anything
> unless it is based on your performance and
> ability.

the easiest answer is that, in a class of eighteen students (which is a conservative estimate at some fcps school) you have eighteen distinct personalities and learning styles. a teacher has to know how best to present information for the myriad personalities and learning styles.

frankly, pedagogy is a much more difficult field than you are giving it credit for...teaching isnt JUST about transmitting information. If it was, kids would stay home and wikisurf all day.

the primary responsibility of the teacher is to ensure the safety of their students. that safety doesnt begin or end with physical safety, and is doubly difficult because of the subjective and uneven nature of the term, especially as regards education.

more to the point, even PhD's have to retain their teaching license, despite having an obvious mastery of their field. Thus, they are every bit the teacher that their colleagues are, with the ADDED BONUS of knowing more and being more specialized in their field.

your argument is every bit akin to suggesting that an EMT ought to be able to do what a paramedic can do, or that a nurse can do what a surgeon can do. each position is specialized and fulfills a function...paramedics and doctors are further specialized.

Safety of students? Please. Don't pretend to act like teachers or students in FCPS are really put in life threatening situations or suffer serious physical challenges. I don't buy that crap for a second.

What EMT's and Paramedics do are a science, and show a lot less tolerance for error.

Can we prove that a paramedic may know lifesaving techniques that an EMT does not? Probably.

Can we prove that a Phd is a better educator than a teacher with a Bachelors
degree? Probably not.

Is it that taxpayers fault that a lot of teachers spent a lot of money on higher education and are we obligated to pay them a kings ransom salary?

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Safety of students? Please. Don't pretend to act
> like teachers or students in FCPS are really put
> in life threatening situations or suffer serious
> physical challenges. I don't buy that crap for a
> second.
>
> What EMT's and Paramedics do are a science, and
> show a lot less tolerance for error.
>
> Can we prove that a paramedic may know lifesaving
> techniques that an EMT does not? Probably.
>
> Can we prove that a Phd is a better educator than
> a teacher with a Bachelors
> degree? Probably not.
>
> Is it that taxpayers fault that a lot of teachers
> spent a lot of money on higher education and are
> we obligated to pay them a kings ransom salary?


Looks like someone needs to spend a day in a school. Based on this, and your original post, it is abundantly clear that you have zero idea of what goes on in our schools.

Oh yeah, FCPS are so dangerous.

Please explain.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh yeah, FCPS are so dangerous.
>
> Please explain.

A couple of points-
* Look at the thread on discipline issues in FCPS. There are weapons, drugs, gangs, etc in many FCPS schools. Obviously admin and SRO's take the lead in dealing with that, but teachers are often the first line of defense in terms of information gathering to combat those problems.
* Talk to any local first responders, they get calls to FCPS schools all of the time. Obviously most of them are for health issues (allergies, serious asthma attacks, injuries in PE, etc). Who do you think is the first person to deal with these situations? Typically not the nurse....
* As a parent, I want my child to feel safe in the classroom to take risks and ask questions when needed. They won't do that if the teacher doesnt create an environment to encourage that. Usually the first time a kid gets laughed at for asking a question is the last time they will ask one. Might not be your definition of safety, but it falls into mine.


I was referring more to your ridiculous comments about how easy it is to teach. I would challenge you to spend a day just observing a school. Your tune would change.

ok.. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> A couple of points-
> * Look at the thread on discipline issues in FCPS.
> There are weapons, drugs, gangs, etc in many FCPS
> schools. Obviously admin and SRO's take the lead
> in dealing with that, but teachers are often the
> first line of defense in terms of information
> gathering to combat those problems.

So when is the last time there was a major gang incident or a drug bust at a FCPS that didn't involve unapproved Tylenol or some measly amount of weed?
FCPS must be a regular Blackboard Jungle according to the highly dramatized scenario you paint.


> * Talk to any local first responders, they get
> calls to FCPS schools all of the time. Obviously
> most of them are for health issues (allergies,
> serious asthma attacks, injuries in PE, etc). Who
> do you think is the first person to deal with
> these situations? Typically not the nurse....


Great we all know how to dial 911. How many teachers have done CPR or the Heimlich manuever? Spare us the drama.

> * As a parent, I want my child to feel safe in the
> classroom to take risks and ask questions when
> needed. They won't do that if the teacher doesnt
> create an environment to encourage that. Usually
> the first time a kid gets laughed at for asking a
> question is the last time they will ask one. Might
> not be your definition of safety, but it falls
> into mine.

Stop your blubbering.

You assume that no one else in any other workplace assumes these repsonsibilties.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
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WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok.. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > A couple of points-
> > * Look at the thread on discipline issues in
> FCPS.
> > There are weapons, drugs, gangs, etc in many
> FCPS
> > schools. Obviously admin and SRO's take the
> lead
> > in dealing with that, but teachers are often
> the
> > first line of defense in terms of information
> > gathering to combat those problems.
>
> So when is the last time there was a major gang
> incident or a drug bust at a FCPS that didn't
> involve unapproved Tylenol or some measly amount
> of weed?
> FCPS must be a regular Blackboard Jungle according
> to the highly dramatized scenario you paint.
>
>
> > * Talk to any local first responders, they get
> > calls to FCPS schools all of the time.
> Obviously
> > most of them are for health issues (allergies,
> > serious asthma attacks, injuries in PE, etc).
> Who
> > do you think is the first person to deal with
> > these situations? Typically not the nurse....
>
>
> Great we all know how to dial 911. How many
> teachers have done CPR or the Heimlich manuever?
> Spare us the drama.
>
> > * As a parent, I want my child to feel safe in
> the
> > classroom to take risks and ask questions when
> > needed. They won't do that if the teacher
> doesnt
> > create an environment to encourage that.
> Usually
> > the first time a kid gets laughed at for asking
> a
> > question is the last time they will ask one.
> Might
> > not be your definition of safety, but it falls
> > into mine.
>
> Stop your blubbering.
>
> You assume that no one else in any other workplace
> assumes these repsonsibilties.
>
>
>

Well-clearly its easy to be a douchebag on a computer, good for you.

Again, spend a day in a middle school or high school and see what you're saying.

Why are so many teachers frail men and flabby middle aged women?

I guess because the work is so "physically challenging" and there are so many "dangers" with "drugs and gangs".

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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This is the honest to God first time I have ever posted here. But, you truly are an idiot.

Period.

You have no credibility as far as I am concerned.

Zero.

Case in point:
You have posted on this site over 4,200 times in less than (2) years. (2) years! That's almost (45) posts per week! Seriously?

What do you do that allows you to do that? Cna't be anything important; or at least I hope not.

If you actually had any one single bit of truth/fact to back it up, then I would give you some props. But you don't.


Maybe when I really care about what people say about teachnig, I will post my true thoughts. You see, I was a GM tech and mechanic for 20+ years. I went to school FT, worked FT, and have a wife and kids; the kids being in ES and MS. All this to take a helluva pay cut to become a teacher, and loans out the a$$. It was my dream. Still is! I am jsut living it now.

It is a great feeling knowing I may make a difference here and there.

Do you make a difference with what you do?

Do you have a dream WingNut?

Or,

are you living it now by posting on message boards?

Just wondering out loud.

Salary based on degree is not limited to the teaching profession or even the public sector. Many large companies have graduated pay scales that take degree into account. So if you start a job with a BA you get $X, and if you start the same job with an MA you get $X+$Y. And/or you become eligible for a raise/promotion if you earn an MA.

Wow WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is the honest to God first time I have ever
> posted here. But, you truly are an idiot.
>
> Period.

THANKS!
WHy have you waited so long to post? And how did you find this site so quickly?


>
> You have no credibility as far as I am concerned.
>
>
> Zero.


I went to public schools for 12 years and I have dated two teachers from FCPS. I met their friends and co-workers. Some really good people, but lots of self-congratualting overpaid lops with little common sense.

>
> Case in point:
> You have posted on this site over 4,200 times in
> less than (2) years. (2) years! That's almost
> (45) posts per week! Seriously?



Hooray! Great research.


>
> What do you do that allows you to do that? Cna't
> be anything important; or at least I hope not.


Self-employed and I have three profitable small businesses and two rental properties. I probably make a little less than twice what you do and I jack around at least two days on my computer while I work. It's important to me and the people I work for, but we all can't be Mother Teresa, can we?

>
> If you actually had any one single bit of
> truth/fact to back it up, then I would give you
> some props. But you don't.


What about my "assertion" did you find so offensive?

>
>
> Maybe when I really care about what people say
> about teachnig, I will post my true thoughts. You
> see, I was a GM tech and mechanic for 20+ years.
> I went to school FT, worked FT, and have a wife
> and kids; the kids being in ES and MS. All this
> to take a helluva pay cut to become a teacher, and
> loans out the a$$. It was my dream. Still is! I
> am jsut living it now.


If your dream is more important than feeding your family, I can't shame you..

>
> It is a great feeling knowing I may make a
> difference here and there.
>
> Do you make a difference with what you do?


Yes. I provide business services to people all over the area and sometimes nation. Businesses grow because of what I do.

>
> Do you have a dream WingNut?

I dream of writing tax checks to the county.state and feds that aren't wasted money.

>
> Or,
>
> are you living it now by posting on message
> boards?
>
> Just wondering out loud.


This board is a fun little time waster and I truly enjoy seeing self-righteous financial burdens like yourself get worked up.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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Wingnut is a good name for you.

I have been teaching for many years and have had to call 911 twice. It was not about drugs. One was a student who went into a seizure and the other one went into diabetic shock. I knew the one was diabetic, but I had no idea about the other one. I ended up going to the hospital with her because it was the last period class and there was no parent to contact. I finally got in touch with an aunt. I truly felt that this was a responsibility that someone needed to take on and that's what we teachers do---care about our students. I have had various other things over the years---including a student who threw a desk at another student and I had to try to get others out of the room as fast as I could. Unfortunately an innocent girl was hurt (and that affected me deeply). I also had a student approach me and tell me that he was going to hit me. Quick thinking and a knowledge of the student helped me avert physical harm.

We deal with the public. Anyone can walk through the door and we are in charge of educating them. The more we know our subject material, the more we can think about everything else going on in the room (and it's a LOT). The more we can focus on each individual student and understand how they learn, the better we can be as teachers. Yes, a master's degree or PhD should be worth something. The amount of money extra for those things is no king's ransom.

Another thing---teachers who value education themselves tend to pass that value on to their students. Don't you think that's a good thing? When students see that their own teacher is still learning and enjoying that process, it sends a powerful message to them. As a teacher, I feel that we are all in the classroom learning from each other (in many ways---not just the subject material). The more that I know (in many ways), the more I can share with the students. I can be a much more interesting person for them if I keep learning and experiencing.

It's hard to fathom that people don't want the best teachers they can get.

Nah. I swear to God I am not worked up at all. Promise.

I just find you amusing at times; at others, very stupid.

Read your Carlin quote and there you have it.

I try my best to make sure our young people don't grow up with tunnel vision or become judgemental such as yourself. I hope to help allow them to have an open mind; seems like something you don't have. That's OK. This world needs all types. It's what makes it fun.

Nah. You really are insignificant to me.

Have a good night.

I was driving down the road one day on my own time and witnessed a very serious car accident. Called 911, prevented an ill advised movement of one of the victims that could have caused permanent paralysis and helped contact one of the victims families.I don't want a medal or pay and I would hope that ANYONE else would do the same out of the kindness of their heart. So what, OK?

No one is saying you are not doing a good thing by teaching. I have dated teachers and I have teachers in my extended family. You are people like anyone else.

My point is when teachers are yapping about how they deserve so much money because they went to school and received a degree, it's insufferable. No one owes you, me or anyone else a living or a specific wage. Show us something first.

Just stop with the self-aggrandizing bullshit.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

Another thing---you own businesses, make plenty of money, and have time to "goof around". Why do you say such mean things about teachers who work hard? You sound like a very bitter person---someone who counts his money, but can't count personal relationships that mean something. I really admire someone like "Wow Wingnut" who posted above. He is the kind of person who is seeking to make a difference and has gone for it. Helping people means something to him. He sounds like someone I would love to have as a colleague. Thankfully, people like him are still becoming teachers despite the vitriol being spewed by people like "Wingnut".

Another thing about teachers---yes, we support each other. That's how we make things better for our students. You probably could never understand that we truly care about our students and each other---this is not just a job. We help each other because we know that our "job" is so much bigger than each one of us individually. The whole thing called education only works if we collaborate as professionals. Anything less is not where we want to go.

Wow.

There seems to something very wrong with you.

You seem bitter and unhappy.

Sorry

You say you make a little less than twice what I make. Yet I bet you I am much happier. Oh, and my family doesn't starve. We are not rich by any strectch of the imagination, but we do OK. We are happy.

My daughter is going to school to work with Autistic ES kids. I am very proud.

That is her dream. Money? While it is improtant, it is not the end all.

The old adage "Money can't by happiness" is ringing very true.

I hope you find peace.

I do feel for you.

You work so hard?

You babysit 9 months of the year and get Summers off. Oh, and you deal with "drugs and gangs" etc. Go make a differnce at some school in the ghetto if you care so much. Fairfax students mostly come from stable homes and were taught to read by their parents. You have it easy and you fucking know it.


You trying to portray yourself as a samaritan instead of a bureaucratic tool as you likely are.

I worked my ass off to get where I am today and did without a lot of stuff. I'm not Donald Trump, but I control my own destiny instead of being part of the government machine like you.


"Those who can, do; those who can't, teach"

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was driving down the road one day on my own time
> and witnessed a very serious car accident. Called
> 911, prevented an ill advised movement of one of
> the victims that could have caused permanent
> paralysis and helped contact one of the victims
> families.I don't want a medal or pay and I would
> hope that ANYONE else would do the same out of the
> kindness of their heart. So what, OK?
>
> No one is saying you are not doing a good thing by
> teaching. I have dated teachers and I have
> teachers in my extended family. You are people
> like anyone else.
>
> My point is when teachers are yapping about how
> they deserve so much money because they went to
> school and received a degree, it's insufferable.
> No one owes you, me or anyone else a living or a
> specific wage. Show us something first.
>
> Just stop with the self-aggrandizing bullshit.

I really don't hear teachers yapping about how they deserve so much money or saying that people owe them. I see and hear people like you complaining that they do which draws a reaction, but seldom do the teachers raise the issue.

Goodnight, it's time to go.........

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

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Wingnut:

Please do us a big favor and do not have any children. I think you probably won't (due to your "optimistic" attitude), but just please, please don't. You are seriously out of touch and have no idea about Fairfax County. You are living in a bubble and need to get out of it. You have no idea what you are talking about. Fairfax County has some wealthy and middle class, but there are areas with drugs, gangs and where parents do not teach their kids to read. This is not the "la la land" you seem to think it is. You've been drinking the kool aid. Open your eyes.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Goodnight, it's time to go.........
>
>

You're not in Wisconsin.

I know the shittier areas of this county better than most, and surprise, compared to a lot of other urban areas, they are really not that shitty. Some minor drug, gang and language problems, but if you teach at FCPS you are not teaching in the South Bronx or Anacostia. Prince William County probably has a tougher school system.

Please tell me about all the areas of the county that are super scary to you.I am fucking amused now.

Goodnight sweetheart, goodnight.



Get around more Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wingnut:
>
> Please do us a big favor and do not have any
> children. I think you probably won't (due to your
> "optimistic" attitude), but just please, please
> don't. You are seriously out of touch and have no
> idea about Fairfax County. You are living in a
> bubble and need to get out of it. You have no
> idea what you are talking about. Fairfax County
> has some wealthy and middle class, but there are
> areas with drugs, gangs and where parents do not
> teach their kids to read. This is not the "la la
> land" you seem to think it is. You've been
> drinking the kool aid. Open your eyes.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut is completely right. People who teach as their profession all like to give the image that they are making a huge difference or putting forth tons of effort in their job. This is completely false. I graduated last year from Westfield HS and I've only had two teachers ever who I considered to be far too smart to be in such a low-paying, average job, and one of them was retired who had over 25 years in another field. There definitely is a "manual" that is given to these teachers, and I fully believe any college educated individual could be as good of a teacher as the ones already in FCPS (atleast at the high school level). What is so hard about their work? All they do is make lesson plans on what to cover in class (which probably takes 2-3 hours over a weekend to plan the whole week), and most of the "teaching" comes straight from the textbooks. It doesn't take much intelligence or talent to repeat what is written in the books. Also, WingNut's statement about "babysitting 9 months and summer off" is completely correct; their job takes minimal effort during the school year, and they get a combined 3 and a half months off every year. How can they expect to be paid more money in such a simple profession and with less time worked than nearly any other job? The idea of them getting extra money for having a Masters degree is ridiculous, I say get rid of the teachers with Masters degrees and keep paying the standard qualified teachers a low amount. THEY ARE ALL DISPENSABLE AND CAN EASILY BE REPLACED. And my final point is about the "dangers" of FCPS schools. That really left me shaking my head, what makes teachers/parents think that FCPS schools are so dangerous? I went to Westfield, often regarded as one of the more troubled schools in the county and there was virtually zero danger. Less than 5 fights occured per school year, any drug problems were just dumb ass kids having pot in their car, and no threat of weapons at all. Any teachers reading this please realize YOU HAVE AN EASY JOB, YOU DO NOT DESERVE MORE MONEY. KEEP LYING TO YOURSELF, YOU'LL NEVER SEE THE PAY YOU THINK YOU DESERVE.

Teachers with PhD's and Master's degrees are paid more because they have more
experience and education in their field and therefore have higher qualifications
to teach certain subjects or administrate. They can more effectively pass along
their knowledge, have true competence of a subject, and answer complicated
questions with better thorough explanations. This is especially true in the math
and sciences. More money is also an incentive to come work in the public sector
teaching.

If you ask me we should be doing more to get PhD's into our public school systems. We are falling behind...

"An international study published last month looked at how students in 65 countries performed in math, science and reading. The winner was: Confucianism! ... The United States? We came in 15th in reading, 23rd in science and 31st in math. ... Americans think of China’s strategic challenge in terms of, say, the new Chinese stealth fighter aircraft. But the real challenge is the rise of China’s education system.."
China’s Winning Schools?

"Scientific research in China has been booming along with the economy, and the nation could overtake the US as the world's leading producer of research as early as 2013, according to a report from Britain's Royal Society for Science. The report credits massive investment in China in education"
China Poised to Surpass US in Science

As crude and rude as WingNut is, his comments have roots. My experience with children in FCPS system is that the teachers and schools spend far more time figuring out the next PTA fundraiser than they do spoonfeeding pre-determined lesson plans dictated by the School Board. While the SOL tests offer a standard, they also lower the bar on excellent students. Teachers will teach to the lowest common denominator instead of coaching the best of the best. If you all do such a great job teaching, why do I have to spend so much time explaining to my kids the basics of English and Arithmetic?

As for the concept of a additional education = additional pay, that is crap. I have a master's degree with the notion that it would be a ticket to the next level. What came of it? No increase in pay, but a whopping $42,000 student loan debt that I'll probably never pay off before I die.

Teachers are no different than any other government worker - largely overpaid for what they do with far too much time off to actually accomplish anything. In order for them to teach adequately, they have to take a personal liking to your child and truly want to help that particular child.

A side note which will probably generate some reaction, black teachers will favor black children, white will favor white, etc. It is a fact of life. Any parent who denies this truth needs to take a closer look at the school your child attends. Racism isn't blatent. It is in the little inuendos, the unspoken acceptance/or lack thereof. My children appear white but are mixed so I get to experience the derogatory comments from both sides.

Khpm7, your argument is weak. Perhaps the pursuit of those higher degrees is exactly what causes the lack of attention in the classroom. If your mind is on your thesis, how can you have your mind on teaching my child? It is impossible. If the children's educational performance is expected to increase, it isn't your own theoretical thinking that you need to focus on, it is the nuts and bolts, nose to the grindstone attention to each and every child's accomplishments. How is your higher learning going to help my child's effort to learn the multiplication tables?

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would never home school a kid ( I am not a
> parent anyway) but I've seen a few home schooled
> kids who are absolutely brilliant but for the lack
> of social interaction.
>
> Tell us about what is so difficult about teaching?
> I get a feeling sometimes it's all part of the
> same college tuition and textbook racket.What is
> so special and difficult about your job?
>
> If you have a Masters or PhD, great for you, but
> we the taxpayer shouldn't guarrantee you anything
> unless it is based on your performance and
> ability.


You can't do performance pay, because it's bullshit. It pits teacher against teacher, and it involves a load of ass kissing. Teachers need to get paid more in FCPS, and that's it. They get paid far more in NY for instance, and they don't have to work nearly as much.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

This thread is pure stupidity. the reason why teachers with advanced degrees get more is because the county is trying to attract them, pure and simple. If you don't like it, vote out the school board and board of supervisors.

People with MA as Ph.D's know more about their field, whether its science or math or history, than those who don't. This is because, shocker, they've had to spend more time studying it, and writing papers in a defined program of scholarship than dilettantes who just read what they want.

I can anticipate the stupid responses "well, I know alot of stuff, and I learned it all from watching discovery or history channel. . . "

No you don't. You know someone elses version of the subject. That's the point of MA's and Ph.Ds.

If having people that know more, and and smarter, because they can get into advanced programs (and yes they are smarter, because advanced programs means additional Standardized tests, and standardized test mean smarter--not because they make you smarter, but because if you don't do well on them you are dumb, because they are easy) doesn't matter then DON'T HIRE THEM!

Its that easy: get rid of all the FCPS organization and put in a bunch of people with degrees from NOVA or Mason. If you were able to get up the requisite political support, I doubt there'd even be much of an outcry.

And teaching is hard, harder than what you do.

I am completely dismayed by lolwut's comments. If what he says is true, someone needs to take a look at Westfield HS. My son goes to West Springfield HS and he has awesome teachers. Compared to what I had (and my husband) when we were in high school, his teachers are fabulous. His math teacher is a graduate of Annapolis who spent some years in the Marines and who went back to be a teacher. My son loves him---he is a tough teacher who makes up all of his tests and he works hard. His history teacher is the same---just unbelievable. None of her stuff is from the book---she has developed all of it. It was the same with his history teacher from last year. She is also very involved with National History Day---which is a ton of work---students compete in many categories. His English teacher is also just incredible. She heads up the debate team and she brings a lot of those techniques to her class. He just finished reciting a monologue from Julius Caesar where she taught them how to present a piece orally (very important skill). His science teacher is also tops in her field. I speak Spanish and his Spanish teacher is working her behind off (she's a new teacher). I admire her. The band director over at WSHS is EXTREMELY committed. I doubt that you can find someone with his passion in very many schools. He can be very difficult, but he has heart and dedication. I can't say that my son is perfect or that he is a favorite (I know it's not true because he has gotten comments about inattention in class). He does not make honor roll every quarter. School is a challenge for him. I can say that his teachers are working hard. I don't mind helping him at home because I think his education is part of my job and I love him. I do not resent that I have this child. He was my choice. He has taught me a lot in life. If you expect government or the schools to do everything for you or your child, you are dismissing your responsibility to your child and to society. Stop complaining and start pitching in. Yes, it will cost something. Everything that means anything costs something in terms of effort and money.

I liked the post that said that the teachers never start these threads about money. It's always someone who doesn't want to pay taxes and who doesn't have any kids. Enlarge your world.

People complain that schools are not producing kids who can read and write well. Guess what? The more you write, the better you get and the more you learn about that whole process. Teachers who have Master's and PhD's have read and written a lot more than those with a Bachelor's. This makes them much better at teaching those skills (skills which cut across the curriculum). And that's just one thing that happens when you continue your schooling.

What message are you sending to a profession when you say it doesn't matter how educated the people are who are in it? Would you say the same thing of any other profession? People in the rest of the developed (and developing) world must think we are insane when they read this stuff. Oh, except the Taliban. They love to deny people an education.

Unless you come up with another way to reward teachers that works, rewarding further education is not a totally bad idea. And it costs peanuts compared to the return.

WingNut,

I think it is time for you to move, seems life would be so much better for you somewhere else.

I help you start:
http://www.remax-alabama.com/
http://www.uhaul.com/

I hate to waste the bandwith, but who can argue the need to trim the fat with stats like this available?
Attachments:

Truth is the truth and ugly is ugly.

I asked for a little justification from the teachers and I got hyperbole and cliches.

"Don't you want the BEST for the students?"
"We teach because we CARE!!"

Blah, blah, blah. More self promotion with ZERO substance. I would expect teachers who are so highly educated to be able to support their arguments with something concrete, but instead they again stress the "nobility" of their professional choice and carry on like hysterical old ladies.

You are not teaching in dangerous schools. Even the "worst" high school in the county ( I am guessing West Potomac?) is hardly a fucking war zone. Stop with the drama.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 29, 2011 09:16PM

My point is when teachers are yapping about how they deserve so much money because they went to school and received a degree, it's insufferable. No one owes you, me or anyone else a living or a specific wage. Show us something first.


really? When have you ever heard a teacher go off about how they "deserve so much money blah blah blah"

And since you say "Show us something first.", wouldnt the simple UNDENIABLE fact that they are the backbone of arguably, the MOST SUCCESSFUL overall school system in the Nation (if not the World), and have been for over two decades now...............well if that's not proof enough for ya, then you've got problems.

you know, all those number$ would be very impressive

IF WE DIDNT LIVE IN ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE PLACES ON THE FUCKING PLANET!!!


Posted by: WingNut ()
Date: March 30, 2011 08:50A

you say "You are not teaching in dangerous schools. Even the "worst" high school in the county ( I am guessing West Potomac?) is hardly a fucking war zone. Stop with the drama."

so what you are suggesting is that we lower the pay, thus lowering the teaching talent we can get, thus lowering the level of school system we have here, is that it?

p.s. I notice the MAJORITY of FCPS teachers arent on that list at all. I wonder why?
You want a war zone? Move to Baltimore, dude. You'd be more happy with the school system there, I think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2011 09:00AM by Gordon Blvd.

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I would never home school a kid ( I am not a
> > parent anyway) but I've seen a few home
> schooled
> > kids who are absolutely brilliant but for the
> lack
> > of social interaction.
> >
> > Tell us about what is so difficult about
> teaching?
> > I get a feeling sometimes it's all part of the
> > same college tuition and textbook racket.What
> is
> > so special and difficult about your job?
> >
> > If you have a Masters or PhD, great for you,
> but
> > we the taxpayer shouldn't guarrantee you
> anything
> > unless it is based on your performance and
> > ability.
>
>
> You can't do performance pay, because it's
> bullshit. It pits teacher against teacher, and it
> involves a load of ass kissing. Teachers need to
> get paid more in FCPS, and that's it. They get
> paid far more in NY for instance, and they don't
> have to work nearly as much.

The notion that performance pay is bull bullshit is bullshit. I worked
under pay for performance for many years and it works fine. The best
thing about it is that you can actually get rid of slackers and non-
hackers without having to jump through a hundred hoops. The only
employees who find problems with it are the ones who know they're
sitting on their asses and don't want to get up.

Here is the kind of teacher I want for my child:

I want a teacher who does not use manuals and canned materials. I want a teacher who has a lot of education and experience, and, because of that education and experience, can make decisions that will help my child gain the skills to succeed in his life. I want a teacher who is not afraid to take risks and who shows my child that it is okay to do so as well. I want a teacher who asks many questions and who shows my child that questions are a good thing and that we might not even always know the answers, but we should keep asking the questions and trying.

I want a teacher who does things that are not necessarily "measured" by a state test, but are immeasurable in terms of advancing his skills (like the monologue in English class, the paper where he has to use supporting evidence from primary sources, the math problems where he has to go step by step in a logical fashion to find an answer and has to decide what to do---not decide which answer to pick, to learn how to work with a group of people to produce something that he could not do alone). There are so, so many more examples. Bascially, I want him to be able to think in very different ways and in very different environments. I want a teacher who understands that this is what education is about. I want a teacher who sees that every child in the room has strengths and that those strengths can be harnessed to advance the child's learning.

What I don't want:

A teacher who believes that anyone can do the job he/she is doing and that it is nothing special. If he/she believes this, I fear he/she believes the children are nothing special as well.

A teacher who believes that there is no further education or learning that he/she could get that may improve him/her as a teacher.

A teacher who feels that society does not value him/her and so there is no value in what he/she is doing.


Am I asking for too much???

Posted by: What I would like ()
Date: March 30, 2011 09:13AM

Am I asking for too much???

Sorry, my friend, but these days you are "SOL", same as the teachers who have to operate under the state rules - unless, of course, we as parents FIGHT for teachers to have those rights again. Are any of us willing to do that? Get rid of stupid testing in let teachers teach freely, again?

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
since you say "Show us something first.",
> wouldnt the simple UNDENIABLE fact that they are
> the backbone of arguably, the MOST SUCCESSFUL
> overall school system in the Nation (if not the
> World), and have been for over two decades
> now...............well if that's not proof enough
> for ya, then you've got problems.

I dispute that FCPS are the best in the nation, but they probably are first or second in the state, maybe behind Arlington.

If we could ease the tax burden significantly, I would be proud to be Number 3 or Number 4.

Again, FCPS teachers have an advantage in the stabile home enviroments and educated parents of many of the students. I question the high pay of many of the upper level and admistrative jobbers, and the absurd notion that FCPS are highly dangerous gang infested work hazards.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

We definitely need to trim some of the fat at the administrative levels, but if someone has a phd or masters in ANY field they get paid more. I've seen it in any number of professions. Now, if they have a masters in science and they're driving a cab, maybe not, but then what the hell are they doing driving a cab then?

So yeah, paying a higher educated teacher more is acceptable. Paying for seven principals and multiple assistant principals and at least seven admins at one school is asinine.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gordon Blvd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> since you say "Show us something first.",
> > wouldnt the simple UNDENIABLE fact that they
> are
> > the backbone of arguably, the MOST SUCCESSFUL
> > overall school system in the Nation (if not the
> > World), and have been for over two decades
> > now...............well if that's not proof
> enough
> > for ya, then you've got problems.
>
> I dispute that FCPS are the best in the nation,
> but they probably are first or second in the
> state, maybe behind Arlington.
>
> If we could ease the tax burden significantly, I
> would be proud to be Number 3 or Number 4.
>
> Again, FCPS teachers have an advantage in the
> stabile home enviroments and educated parents of
> many of the students. I question the high pay of
> many of the upper level and admistrative jobbers,
> and the absurd notion that FCPS are highly
> dangerous gang infested work hazards.

I Moved from Arlington to Fairfax so my kids wouldnt have to go to Wakefield
High School. Screw the numbers. I just wanted to keep them away from the
trashy environment and out of the control of the shit-for-brains liberals
who run the county.

NovAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> do you have a phd? getting one is hard. very hard.
> and very time consuming, and deonstrates a mastery
> of the chosen field.

It is time consuming, but a PhD is more a testament to determination than intelligence. It takes a long time, requires one putting up with an enourmous amount of university politics, bs, and slave labor requirements. It is not, however, an indication of mastery of a field.

What I would like Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------

You must be a teacher. Allow me to translate.

> Here is the kind of teacher I want for my child:
>
> I want a teacher who does not use manuals and
> canned materials. I want a teacher who has a lot
> of education and experience, and, because of that
> education and experience, can make decisions that
> will help my child gain the skills to succeed in
> his life. \

This teacher doesn't want to be told what to do by anyone, because in their arrogance they beleive that they everything there is to know about teaching.

>I want a teacher who is not afraid to
> take risks and who shows my child that it is okay
> to do so as well.

This teacher probably also doesn't beleive in grades - too judgemental

>I want a teacher who asks many
> questions and who shows my child that questions
> are a good thing and that we might not even always
> know the answers, but we should keep asking the
> questions and trying.
>

If you can't answer a childs questions, you should not be teaching.

> I want a teacher who does things that are not
> necessarily "measured" by a state test, but are
> immeasurable in terms of advancing his skills
> (like the monologue in English class, the paper
> where he has to use supporting evidence from
> primary sources, the math problems where he has to
> go step by step in a logical fashion to find an
> answer and has to decide what to do---not decide
> which answer to pick, to learn how to work with a
> group of people to produce something that he could
> not do alone).

So you don't want to do what the state says, but you have a very long, prescriptive list of items that should be included in instruction. Very illuminating.

"if you can't answer a child's questions, you should not be in teaching"


You would be surprised at what kids ask.

where you been? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "if you can't answer a child's questions, you
> should not be in teaching"
>
>
> You would be surprised at what kids ask.

My third graders learn about ancient cultures. They need to know how different cultures met their basic needs. We study the geography, culture, economics, and civic characteristics of ancient China, Egypt, Greece and Rome. They need to be able to compare/contrast the cultures and it is very interesting to them. The students ask a ton of questions and some I don't know the answer to. There is no harm in saying, "I don't know. That's a good question. We'll have to take some time to see if we can find the answer"?

Khpm7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teachers with PhD's and Master's degrees are paid
> more because they have more
> experience and education in their field and
> therefore have higher qualifications
> to teach certain subjects or administrate.

Notice this post says nothing about how effectively they teach - just wonderfully qualified and covered in certificates. We have this problem top to bottom in the US - it's like the degree or certification is the most important thing, not the actual achievement that comes from skillfully applying it.

I could give a shit about what my kids teachers degree is - I'm cared about whether they are teaching well and if my kids are learning. Judge and pay the teachers on how well they teach, not whether they got some bullshit masters degree from GMU in education.

where you been? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "if you can't answer a child's questions, you
> should not be in teaching"
>
>
> You would be surprised at what kids ask.


More likely I would be surpised by what you don't know after teaching about the same ancient culture for years. If you'd read a real history book about Mali or Greece, you might be able to answer the questions. Being one chapter ahead in the text book does not qualify you to teach a topic.

Pay increases for advanced degrees is warranted and a great policy. The education field is evolving, and if we want teachers to continue their education and stay current, rewarding them is appropriate. It's simple motivational theory, actually. Reward the behavior that you seek.

Rewards for success, consequences for failure.

Ever noticed how there are regular cases of teachers and professors who lie about the degree they have and no one is the wiser?

I seem to remember a case where a self-taught guy, and a dropout at that was able to bullshit his way into not only a teaching but an adminstrative job at some urban school system.

Airline pilots and neurosurgeons can't bullshit their training.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2015 06:57PM by WingNut.

not a teacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pay increases for advanced degrees is warranted
> and a great policy. The education field is
> evolving, and if we want teachers to continue
> their education and stay current, rewarding them
> is appropriate. It's simple motivational theory,
> actually. Reward the behavior that you seek.
>
> Rewards for success, consequences for failure.


The bahavior we should seek is the educational achievement of the students, as measured objectively. Paying more for a MS/PhD does not equal a better education for the student. It equals more pay for the teacher - that's about it.

With the exception of perhaps some very advance HS level courses, a PhD means nothing to a typical FPCS student.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ever noticed how there are regular cases of
> teachers and professors who lie about the degree
> they have and no one is the wiser?
>
> I seem to remember a case where a self-taught guy,
> and a dropout at that was able to bullshit his way
> into not only a teaching but an adminstrative job
> at some urban school system.
>
Honestly? No, I have not noticed this being a regular occurance.

I should be so lucky to make $50K straight out of school and have 3+ months off per year. I will keep my personal thoughts to myself, though.

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> where you been? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "if you can't answer a child's questions, you
> > should not be in teaching"
> >
> >
> > You would be surprised at what kids ask.
>
>
> More likely I would be surpised by what you don't
> know after teaching about the same ancient culture
> for years. If you'd read a real history book
> about Mali or Greece, you might be able to answer
> the questions. Being one chapter ahead in the
> text book does not qualify you to teach a topic.

One thing is for sure, you must have finished at the top of your class when you graduated from jackass school.
I never said I couldn't answer their questions. On occasion, a student will ask a question about an ancient culture,historical figure, or some other social studies topic and I don't know the answer. Although you come across as a know-it-all, nobody can possibly claim to know the answer to everything. For example, while discussing education in ancient Rome, a student read that boys spent most of their time after age 7 with their teacher and friends. He asked if they stayed at school away from home or if the students went back and forth from the home to school. Did I know the answer right then? No? Can you take time and do a little research with the student to find out? Yes. There is no harm in that. Do you have kids of your own? You can't tell me that a quizzical 8 year old never asked you something that you didn't know the exact answer to.

And if you think teaching is going chapter by chapter through a history book, then you haven't been in a classroom for quite a while.

Some phony tacher stories from Google-

http://www.salemnews.com/local/x1150822835/Phony-teacher-in-trouble-again

http://utdailybeacon.com/news/2003/apr/28/tip-catches-phony-teacher/

http://articles.latimes.com/1996-09-11/local/me-42760_1_inglewood-unified-school-district

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2000-06-01/news/18136280_1_real-teacher-phony-thomas-e-williams

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4228771.html







tgbwc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ever noticed how there are regular cases of
> > teachers and professors who lie about the
> degree
> > they have and no one is the wiser?
> >
> > I seem to remember a case where a self-taught
> guy,
> > and a dropout at that was able to bullshit his
> way
> > into not only a teaching but an adminstrative
> job
> > at some urban school system.
> >
> Honestly? No, I have not noticed this being a
> regular occurance.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2011 03:11PM by WingNut.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Airline pilots and neurosurgeons can't bullshit
> their training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale

Just sayin'.

Ut videam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Airline pilots and neurosurgeons can't bullshit
> > their training.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale
>
> Just sayin'.

I read the book about the "Catch Me If You Can Guy", he never actually manned the flights though, his trick was to exploit fake pilot status and get the free rides as a passenger.

On the other hand, Jack Black in "School of Rock" easily fooled parents and children into thinking he was a qualified substitute teacher. LOL

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

questions and answers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > where you been? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > "if you can't answer a child's questions, you
> > > should not be in teaching"
> > >
> > >
> > > You would be surprised at what kids ask.
> >
> >
> > More likely I would be surpised by what you
> don't
> > know after teaching about the same ancient
> culture
> > for years. If you'd read a real history book
> > about Mali or Greece, you might be able to
> answer
> > the questions. Being one chapter ahead in the
> > text book does not qualify you to teach a
> topic.
>
> One thing is for sure, you must have finished at
> the top of your class when you graduated from
> jackass school.
> I never said I couldn't answer their questions. On
> occasion, a student will ask a question about an
> ancient culture,historical figure, or some other
> social studies topic and I don't know the answer.
> Although you come across as a know-it-all, nobody
> can possibly claim to know the answer to
> everything. For example, while discussing
> education in ancient Rome, a student read that
> boys spent most of their time after age 7 with
> their teacher and friends. He asked if they stayed
> at school away from home or if the students went
> back and forth from the home to school. Did I know
> the answer right then? No? Can you take time and
> do a little research with the student to find out?
> Yes. There is no harm in that. Do you have kids of
> your own? You can't tell me that a quizzical 8
> year old never asked you something that you didn't
> know the exact answer to.
>
> And if you think teaching is going chapter by
> chapter through a history book, then you haven't
> been in a classroom for quite a while.


No, I think if you are going to make it your business to teach ancient Rome to 3rd graders, you might read something more than the textbooks you hand out to students. That you would have a depth of knowledge beyond the four corners of the mandated curriculum. That you would have an intellectual curiousity and pride of in your profession to have perhaps read some Gibbons or maybe even throw some Shakespeare into the lesson like Julius Ceasar. Just a few pages, nothing crazy - they are after all 3rd graders. If I am to beleive all these posts about the 60 hour work weeks you have, well you must be building those kinds of deeply enriching educational experiences for our little children.

Sarcasm aside, if you have not mastered a topic, how in the world can you teach it?

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> No, I think if you are going to make it your
> business to teach ancient Rome to 3rd graders, you
> might read something more than the textbooks you
> hand out to students. That you would have a depth
> of knowledge beyond the four corners of the
> mandated curriculum. That you would have an
> intellectual curiousity and pride of in your
> profession to have perhaps read some Gibbons or
> maybe even throw some Shakespeare into the lesson
> like Julius Ceasar. Just a few pages, nothing
> crazy - they are after all 3rd graders. If I am to
> beleive all these posts about the 60 hour work
> weeks you have, well you must be building those
> kinds of deeply enriching educational experiences
> for our little children.
>
> Sarcasm aside, if you have not mastered a topic,
> how in the world can you teach it?

There are no social studies textbooks in third grade, and if we had them I wouldn't rely on only them for instruction. And what makes you think that I don't extend the curriculum? What makes you think I don't go beyond the mandated curriculum? You think what you do because I admit that there is no way that even an "expert" could possibly know the answer to every question posed? You make great assumptions here. You have not been in my classroom to see the students making canopic jars out of clay at the end of a unit on Egypt. The art teacher fires them in the kiln and then the students glaze them. You haven't been in my classroom to see the students decoding a Caesar cipher and making up their own messages for other students to solve. You haven't seen the circle books that my students make for ancient China which mimic the curved rooftops which are curved to confuse and ward off evil spirits. You haven't seen my students compare and contrast the Great Wall in China to Hadrian's Roman wall in Britain. They get enriching educational experiences, I promise you. That's just one subject area. We have barely touched on social studies. How about science? Math? Language arts? Come into my classroom and teach the students about author's purpose, inferencing, determining the main idea. Come in and teach them about Caesar Chavez, Mali, and George Washington. Teach them about the republican form of government and opportunity cost, interdependence, capital and human resources. There is no way that you could go a whole school year without having a student asking a question to which you don't know the answer. You don't have to know the answer to everything, nor can you.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some phony tacher stories from Google-
>
> http://www.salemnews.com/local/x1150822835/Phony-t
> eacher-in-trouble-again
>
> http://utdailybeacon.com/news/2003/apr/28/tip-catc
> hes-phony-teacher/
>
> http://articles.latimes.com/1996-09-11/local/me-42
> 760_1_inglewood-unified-school-district
>
> http://articles.nydailynews.com/2000-06-01/news/18
> 136280_1_real-teacher-phony-thomas-e-williams
>
> http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4228771.html
>
>
>
>
2006? 2003? 1996? Sure, you can find some examples. No argument there. But to say these are occurring regulary? No. This is not a regular occurance.

Btw, what is your profession?

Wow wrote:

"This teacher doesn't want to be told what to do by anyone, because in their arrogance they beleive that they everything there is to know about teaching."


Maybe this teacher doesn't want to be told by "Wow" that "Wow" knows everything there is to know about teaching. "Wow" seems to be the arrogant one here.

Maybe this teacher doesn't believe there is someone who "knows everything there is to know about teaching".

Maybe this teacher thinks that some people know something about teaching, but no person knows as much about his/her class as he/she does because he/she goes there and spends all day there every day and actually knows the students who are in the room. No two kids are the same. No two classes are the same. That's what makes it interesting. That's why there can be no manual or materials that cover every situation. That's why we don't have robots doing the job.

If you want a "paint by the numbers" teacher, go to "Wow's school". Teaching is not a science, despite what the "data driven" moguls want to believe. There is an awful lot of "art" to teaching, and the best teachers are incredible artists.

I would like to see "Wow" come up with a system to quantify what a "good teacher" is.

No , you will never quantify teaching Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow wrote:
>
> "This teacher doesn't want to be told what to do
> by anyone, because in their arrogance they beleive
> that they everything there is to know about
> teaching."
>
>
> Maybe this teacher doesn't want to be told by
> "Wow" that "Wow" knows everything there is to know
> about teaching. "Wow" seems to be the arrogant
> one here.
>
> Maybe this teacher doesn't believe there is
> someone who "knows everything there is to know
> about teaching".
>
> Maybe this teacher thinks that some people know
> something about teaching, but no person knows as
> much about his/her class as he/she does because
> he/she goes there and spends all day there every
> day and actually knows the students who are in the
> room. No two kids are the same. No two classes
> are the same. That's what makes it interesting.
> That's why there can be no manual or materials
> that cover every situation. That's why we don't
> have robots doing the job.
>
> If you want a "paint by the numbers" teacher, go
> to "Wow's school". Teaching is not a science,
> despite what the "data driven" moguls want to
> believe. There is an awful lot of "art" to
> teaching, and the best teachers are incredible
> artists.
>
> I would like to see "Wow" come up with a system to
> quantify what a "good teacher" is.

Funny, we require doctors pass board exams, lawyers to pass the bar exam, but it absolutely impossible to measure teachers, ever. Spare me this teacher union bullshit - it's a dodge to avoid accountability. Thing is, if you as a profession had spent more time developing measurable professional and performance standards over the last few decades, instead of feathering your nest with pension benefits and tenure protections, you might actually have some defense.

questions and answers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
(about phony teachers)

One of these phony teachers worked at a public school for OVER A DECADE without detection.

How does this happen?

Do you think most of the other teachers around him were lazy jobbers who couldn't recognize someone with a background in education?

I've met a lot of teachers and count a few as personal friends. Some are really bright, many are complete dumbshits.


>
> Btw, what is your profession?


If I was a trashman, would that make you better than me and would it disqualify me from caring how my tax dollars are wasted? Obviously you want to play a status game with a question like that. Teach that value to the kids, loser, that's great.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> questions and answers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> (about phony teachers)
>
> One of these phony teachers worked at a public
> school for OVER A DECADE without detection.
>
> How does this happen?
>
> Do you think most of the other teachers around him
> were lazy jobbers who couldn't recognize someone
> with a background in education?
>
> I've met a lot of teachers and count a few as
> personal friends. Some are really bright, many are
> complete dumbshits.
>
>
> >
> > Btw, what is your profession?
>
>
> If I was a trashman, would that make you better
> than me and would it disqualify me from caring how
> my tax dollars are wasted? Obviously you want to
> play a status game with a question like that.
> Teach that value to the kids, loser, that's
> great.
>
>


No, nothing would make either one of us greater or lesser than anyone else. Again, you make an assumption and say something is "obvious" when it isn't. Whatever it is you do for a living, if anything at all, I am sure I can find some examples of somebody who has messed up.

Posted by: JBass ()
Date: March 31, 2011 02:58PM

I should be so lucky to make $50K straight out of school and have 3+ months off per year. I will keep my personal thoughts to myself, though.

so become a teacher

DUH

Posted by: questions and answers ()

2006? 2003? 1996? Sure, you can find some examples. No argument there. But to say these are occurring regularly? No. This is not a regular occurrence.

That's why it's news - cause it's not a rgular occurance

notice NONE of that crap was happening around here

yet this dude wants us to lower the county teaching standards - I guess so crap like that CAN happen here?

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Posted by: questions and answers ()
>
> 2006? 2003? 1996? Sure, you can find some
> examples. No argument there. But to say these are
> occurring regularly? No. This is not a regular
> occurrence.
>
> That's why it's news - cause it's not a rgular
> occurance
>
> notice NONE of that crap was happening around
> here
>
> yet this dude wants us to lower the county
> teaching standards - I guess so crap like that CAN
> happen here?

Guess so.

Merit based pay. The good one win the bad ones walk.

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funny, we require doctors pass board exams,
> lawyers to pass the bar exam, but it absolutely
> impossible to measure teachers, ever. Spare me
> this teacher union bullshit - it's a dodge to
> avoid accountability. Thing is, if you as a
> profession had spent more time developing
> measurable professional and performance standards
> over the last few decades, instead of feathering
> your nest with pension benefits and tenure
> protections, you might actually have some defense.

+ 1000

Dear Wingnut,

Students in many schools in Fairfax County do not come to school ready to learn. Parents are working three jobs and are not able to spend time with their children reviewing homework and providing the necessary support that a child needs to be a successful student. Not all kids are cut from the same cookie cutter.
Teaching is a hard job. The average number of years a new teacher stays in the teaching field is five years.
Also, there were several years when Fairfax County teachers did not receive any pay increases. One year they got 1/2 of a percent increase in their cost of living. Salaries were frozen for several years too so teachers who have been in the system for a long time are lower on the pay scale than other teachers in surrounding counties. Merit pay didn't work either because Fairfax County couldn't afford to pay the merit increases.
No one becomes a teacher to get rich.

Sam T. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Wingnut,
>
> Students in many schools in Fairfax County do not
> come to school ready to learn. Parents are
> working three jobs and are not able to spend time
> with their children reviewing homework and
> providing the necessary support that a child needs
> to be a successful student.

I am sure there are few, but I seriously doubt there are many parents working THREE jobs. You are bullshitting to say many FCPS students are not taught to read at home by the parents before school begins.


.
> Teaching is a hard job. The average number of
> years a new teacher stays in the teaching field is
> five years.
> Also, there were several years when Fairfax County
> teachers did not receive any pay increases. One
> year they got 1/2 of a percent increase in their
> cost of living. Salaries were frozen for several
> years too so teachers who have been in the system
> for a long time are lower on the pay scale than
> other teachers in surrounding counties. Merit pay
> didn't work either because Fairfax County couldn't
> afford to pay the merit increases.
> No one becomes a teacher to get rich.


Are teachers or anyone owed a payraise every year? The important question is what the salary was to begin with. There are 1400 employess in FCPS making over $90K oer year, the benefits are good and you are not working in inner city gang infested war zones despite the absurd assertions by some of the posters here.

You are teaching in one of the wealthiest counties anywhere with a very educated population.

You are a master troll wingnut.

Here is a thought... If you don't like it, don't pay the part of the tax that goes to teacher salaries...lol.

Truth is, you have no fucking choice. You are owned like a little bitch by FCPS and every other form of govt. so shut the fuck up and take it like everybody else.

You sound like the weak link, whinny, slacker ass employee that gets fired on day one. You don't own shit. Shut the fuck up and get back in line.

"I control my own blah blah blah..." LOL! I can't believe you said that. LOL!

You don't control shit. The US economy does. Again, just a little reminder that you are owned, not in control of anything.

Fucking tool.

Nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a master troll wingnut.
>
> Here is a thought... If you don't like it, don't
> pay the part of the tax that goes to teacher
> salaries...lol.
>
> Truth is, you have no fucking choice. You are
> owned like a little bitch by FCPS and every other
> form of govt. so shut the fuck up and take it like
> everybody else.
>
> You sound like the weak link, whinny, slacker ass
> employee that gets fired on day one. You don't own
> shit. Shut the fuck up and get back in line.
>
> "I control my own blah blah blah..." LOL! I can't
> believe you said that. LOL!
>
> You don't control shit. The US economy does.
> Again, just a little reminder that you are owned,
> not in control of anything.
>
> Fucking tool.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I would have told him to just move out of the County if it was such a big stick up his ass, but you have said it best, my friend :)
Attachments:

Did I hurt your feelings?



Nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a master troll wingnut.
>
> Here is a thought... If you don't like it, don't
> pay the part of the tax that goes to teacher
> salaries...lol.
>
> Truth is, you have no fucking choice. You are
> owned like a little bitch by FCPS and every other
> form of govt. so shut the fuck up and take it like
> everybody else.
>
> You sound like the weak link, whinny, slacker ass
> employee that gets fired on day one. You don't own
> shit. Shut the fuck up and get back in line.
>
> "I control my own blah blah blah..." LOL! I can't
> believe you said that. LOL!
>
> You don't control shit. The US economy does.
> Again, just a little reminder that you are owned,
> not in control of anything.
>
> Fucking tool.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

Nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth is, you have no fucking choice. You are
> owned like a little bitch by FCPS and every other
> form of govt. so shut the fuck up and take it like
> everybody else.

And there you have it, the teachers union political platform summarized in one paragraph.

questions and answers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > No, I think if you are going to make it your
> > business to teach ancient Rome to 3rd graders,
> you
> > might read something more than the textbooks
> you
> > hand out to students. That you would have a
> depth
> > of knowledge beyond the four corners of the
> > mandated curriculum. That you would have an
> > intellectual curiousity and pride of in your
> > profession to have perhaps read some Gibbons or
> > maybe even throw some Shakespeare into the
> lesson
> > like Julius Ceasar. Just a few pages, nothing
> > crazy - they are after all 3rd graders. If I am
> to
> > beleive all these posts about the 60 hour work
> > weeks you have, well you must be building those
> > kinds of deeply enriching educational
> experiences
> > for our little children.
> >
> > Sarcasm aside, if you have not mastered a
> topic,
> > how in the world can you teach it?
>
> There are no social studies textbooks in third
> grade, and if we had them I wouldn't rely on only
> them for instruction. And what makes you think
> that I don't extend the curriculum? What makes you
> think I don't go beyond the mandated curriculum?
> You think what you do because I admit that there
> is no way that even an "expert" could possibly
> know the answer to every question posed? You make
> great assumptions here. You have not been in my
> classroom to see the students making canopic jars
> out of clay at the end of a unit on Egypt. The art
> teacher fires them in the kiln and then the
> students glaze them. You haven't been in my
> classroom to see the students decoding a Caesar
> cipher and making up their own messages for other
> students to solve. You haven't seen the circle
> books that my students make for ancient China
> which mimic the curved rooftops which are curved
> to confuse and ward off evil spirits. You haven't
> seen my students compare and contrast the Great
> Wall in China to Hadrian's Roman wall in Britain.
> They get enriching educational experiences, I
> promise you. That's just one subject area. We have
> barely touched on social studies. How about
> science? Math? Language arts? Come into my
> classroom and teach the students about author's
> purpose, inferencing, determining the main idea.
> Come in and teach them about Caesar Chavez, Mali,
> and George Washington. Teach them about the
> republican form of government and opportunity
> cost, interdependence, capital and human
> resources. There is no way that you could go a
> whole school year without having a student asking
> a question to which you don't know the answer. You
> don't have to know the answer to everything, nor
> can you.


Wingnut, I notice you didn't respond to my post. Obviously you chose to skip over it because you won't admit that I have a valid point and that my students are actually being presented with some fun, interesting, and valuable educational experiences.

questions and answers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wingnut, I notice you didn't respond to my post.
> Obviously you chose to skip over it because you
> won't admit that I have a valid point and that my
> students are actually being presented with some
> fun, interesting, and valuable educational
> experiences.

You don't indent paragraphs very well for a teacher.

It sounds like the "fun" you are talking about is the fun you are having "studying" and planning a cirriculum that focuses on the ancient civilizations of China, Egypt and the Roman Empire.Interesting stuff to know but hardly the enriching knowledge that gets you a job as anything other than a history or social studies teacher.

Maybe the lesson should be the Roman Empire and how the protected upper classes and the bread and circus mentality of the populace helped destroy the civiliztion?

Is school supposed to focus on "fun" or education?
Attachments:

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is school supposed to focus on "fun" or education?

My kids school is doing an all day fundraiser for something today with kids being pulled out of class in waves for that. And of course Monday is yet another 'Teacher Workday'. Two more school days pissed away.

It's like actually teaching and classroom time is something to be avoided. Of course, the SOL pass rate is 90% plus in this school (testament to the quality of the students, not the teachers), so that just seems to be a license to screw around half the time. I'd love to see these teachers work in an inner-city school - they would not last a week.

Wingnut wrote:

"It sounds like the "fun" you are talking about is the fun you are having "studying" and planning a cirriculum that focuses on the ancient civilizations of China, Egypt and the Roman Empire.Interesting stuff to know but hardly the enriching knowledge that gets you a job as anything other than a history or social studies teacher."

Huh? Do you want this teacher to do stuff that trains her for a job that is outside her profession? Do you think she should be studying and planning for an accountant job instead of studying and planning for the job she is on?

I don't think there is anything teachers could do that would please you Wingnut. You criticize, but what is it that you think she should be doing (give details please so she can prepare herself to earn that merit pay).

And who said you can't learn while you are having fun? Play is how kids learn from the time they can grab things---play is learning. I remember my own kid as a preschooler tying knots in rope and lowering things down the stairs. He learned a lot about weights and distance and problem solving, etc. and he didn't even know it. Gosh, your life sounds miserable.

Wingnut:

Your style is to be aggressive, self certain and indifferent to contrary views. This triggers some extreme reactions, but also some thoughtful ones. Your reactions are always extreme. You have incredible contempt for teachers. You do not engage in decent, rationale discourse. You make huge generalizations about the people you are attacking. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution. You are causing more divisiveness. Don't you think it's time for people to get together to solve problems and not time for people to attack each other like this? This is ludicrous. People see through your methods in a heartbeat. If we cannot get together to solve problems in this world, we are doomed to conflict.

dour Wingnut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gosh, your life
> sounds miserable.

Don't worry about my life, it's pretty fucking joyous.

I am doing this as I do most posts here with a smile on my face. There are few topics on the web I get worked about.

The miserable fucker is you beacuse you are on the defensive and your life and world view and value to society had been challenged.

You care enough not to just walk away and dismiss me as a fool.

Boo hoo!

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2015 07:02PM by WingNut.

Let's get pay raises!

It's for the chil-dren!

Attachments:

I like how Wingnut first complains how Fairfax is spending too much on education, then points out how low the US is compared to the other countries in education

You do know that life in Fairfax County is more expensive than in Turkey and Mexico, right?

Sheesh

Next, you'll be trying to convince us that Fairfax County is responsible for all the low test scores in Idaho and Mississippi that give us that National TIMSS score, right?

Is there a co-relation between moeny spent and higher test scores?

If we spend more, our students should obviously score better then right?

WRONG

I would look at this as the money is being spent ineffeciently and that teacher performance may not be so great. Or the kids are just getting stupider.
Think it's possible?

No one is trying to make this nation more like Turkey or Mexico, but we are spending far more than some nations you would consider first world and somehow they are still ahead of us in student performance.

Are you a teacher and is your mission a better education for American children?
Then move to Idaho or Mississippi and "really make a difference(!)" instead of hyping yourself here.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

i dunno what yr talking about - my kids are getting a GREAT education here in Fairfax County

I'm just sick of you putting all this crap you sprout on the backs of the teachers - who are doing their jobs just fine

Your the one complaining - so your the one who should GTFO, yo

the fact you think I'm a teacher (no WAY I could handle their job) just cause I'm for them, that's sad in and of itself

I just know their job is hard - I have twins and have a "fun" time of it

they are dealing with 20-30 kids who arent even their own flesh and blood, most of them with stuck-up parents ( I know this cause I'm a stuck-up parent myself) so yeah, I'll defend them against ppl who want to cut their legs out from under them.

p.s. my kids were born in Idaho - one of the reasons I brought them back here :)

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your the one complaining - so your the one who
> should GTFO, yo


Lol.

You'se funny, man.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i dunno what yr talking about - my kids are
> getting a GREAT education here in Fairfax County
>
> I'm just sick of you putting all this crap you
> sprout on the backs of the teachers - who are
> doing their jobs just fine
>
> Your the one complaining - so your the one who
> should GTFO, yo
>
> the fact you think I'm a teacher (no WAY I could
> handle their job) just cause I'm for them, that's
> sad in and of itself
>
> I just know their job is hard - I have twins and
> have a "fun" time of it
>
> they are dealing with 20-30 kids who arent even
> their own flesh and blood, most of them with
> stuck-up parents ( I know this cause I'm a
> stuck-up parent myself) so yeah, I'll defend them
> against ppl who want to cut their legs out from
> under them.
>
> p.s. my kids were born in Idaho - one of the
> reasons I brought them back here :)

I bet you buy they crap they sell on overnight infomercials, too. You've bought the teacher union propaganda - the whole thing. Think for yourself and question authority!

I love trolls.......

Unless you've been a teacher or have a masters or PhD, you can't talk shit. Someone who's life is "pretty fucking joyous", wouldn't be spending time bashing other people's professions and lives on a site like this. You need help.

NOVAman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love trolls.......
>
> Unless you've been a teacher or have a masters or
> PhD, you can't talk shit. Someone who's life is
> "pretty fucking joyous", wouldn't be spending time
> bashing other people's professions and lives on a
> site like this. You need help.

How dare we taxpayers care about how are moneyis spent.

Shmae in us, we're wrong. Here's another $10K.....

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut, how much should an elementary school teacher get paid? You are spouting off that they get paid too much, but you never say how much you think the job is worth.

And, please provide support for the salary you conjure up.

The fact is, school teachers are professionals that best serve our community by living in our community. Fairfax County is an expensive place to live, therefore teachers should be paid enough to live in Fairfax County comfortably. You can't compare a teachers salary in Montana with one in NoVa.

I won't even mention that on average (national average) teachers spend 8% of their salary on supplies for the job.

You are just a typical conservative with no compassion or awareness beyond your bloated belly and fenced yard. I enjoy reading your posts, though. They make me feel much better about myself.

Please die soon...

I work for commission sales and I am completely independant, no government or boss tit here, thank you very much.

Teachers have told me their jobs are worth so much, why? Is it because your college degree cost so much? That what me thinks.

Why is cost per student so much less, even in the semi-socialist nations in Europe and why are their profeciency scores better?

Just asking.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
why are their
> profeciency scores better?
>
> Just asking.


No child left behind, that's why. We need to stop teaching to the test. quality teachers are not overpaid. Teachers should be able to perform their jobs within their own (supervised) capabilities and should be paid based on the success of their classes. Unfortunately, standardized testing is the only way to evaluate the students success so it seems like a catch 22. Personally, I think the principal should have the authority to evaluate and give raises to teachers. They would be like site managers in a corporation. I think that's how it used to be when I was a kid.

fivestroke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I won't even mention that on average (national
> average) teachers spend 8% of their salary on
> supplies for the job.


Absolute, total teacher union bullshit. That would mean, on average, a teacher spends more on schools supplies than clothes, healthcare, or entertainment. NFW.

http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-the-average-us-consumer-spends-their-paycheck/

Nitpicking over teacher salaries when corporations are making record profits and aren't paying shit on taxes a la the Bush tax cuts makes the logic seem a little off. Just keep cutting jobs and salaries in the public sector because that is the debt problem. You're mad at the wrong people, bro.

NOVAman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nitpicking over teacher salaries when corporations
> are making record profits and aren't paying shit
> on taxes a la the Bush tax cuts makes the logic
> seem a little off. Just keep cutting jobs and
> salaries in the public sector because that is the
> debt problem. You're mad at the wrong people, bro.

The corporate tax rate hasn't changed in close to 20 years, dimbulb. You have no f'ing clue.

The Bush tax cuts lowered individual income tax rates, not corporate. They also lowered ALL tax rates - one the principle reasons that now 50% of the population pays no income tax at all, and the top 5% of earners pay nearly 60% of all income taxes.

I know, I know...don't confuse you with the facts.

fivestroke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Teachers should be able to perform
> their jobs within their own (supervised)
> capabilities and should be paid based on the
> success of their classes. Unfortunately,
> standardized testing is the only way to evaluate
> the students success so it seems like a catch 22.
> Personally, I think the principal should have the
> authority to evaluate and give raises to teachers.
> They would be like site managers in a
> corporation. I think that's how it used to be
> when I was a kid.

Curious then that they would have unions. Like I tell my kids - I can treat you as an individual, or as a group with no distinction among you. My kids always say they want to be treated as individuals. Yet the teachers join unions and mandate they be treated as a 'collective'. Education reformes have been pushing for 'performance pay' for years - unions fight it tooth and nail.

Woah, look at the economic expert that has graced us with his presence.......

The corporate tax rate has zero effect when a companies like General Electric that makes billions in profit while paying NO income tax last year. Tax cuts and budget cuts will not solve the problem. If anything taxes need to go up especially for folks who make over $250,000 a year. No one was bitching about teacher salaries before but everyone is bitching over every crumble while the corporations and execs are laughing. There are too many tax loopholes and taxes need to be raised to close this deficit.