NOVAman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Woah, look at the economic expert that has graced
> us with his presence.......
>
> The corporate tax rate has zero effect when a
> companies like General Electric that makes
> billions in profit while paying NO income tax last
> year. Tax cuts and budget cuts will not solve the
> problem. If anything taxes need to go up
> especially for folks who make over $250,000 a
> year. No one was bitching about teacher salaries
> before but everyone is bitching over every crumble
> while the corporations and execs are laughing.
> There are too many tax loopholes and taxes need to
> be raised to close this deficit.


You are truly fact free....

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gordon Blvd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > i dunno what yr talking about - my kids are
> > getting a GREAT education here in Fairfax
> County
> >
> > I'm just sick of you putting all this crap you
> > sprout on the backs of the teachers - who are
> > doing their jobs just fine
> >
> > Your the one complaining - so your the one who
> > should GTFO, yo
> >
> > the fact you think I'm a teacher (no WAY I
> could
> > handle their job) just cause I'm for them,
> that's
> > sad in and of itself
> >
> > I just know their job is hard - I have twins
> and
> > have a "fun" time of it
> >
> > they are dealing with 20-30 kids who arent even
> > their own flesh and blood, most of them with
> > stuck-up parents ( I know this cause I'm a
> > stuck-up parent myself) so yeah, I'll defend
> them
> > against ppl who want to cut their legs out from
> > under them.
> >
> > p.s. my kids were born in Idaho - one of the
> > reasons I brought them back here :)
>
> I bet you buy they crap they sell on overnight
> infomercials, too. You've bought the teacher
> union propaganda - the whole thing. Think for
> yourself and question authority!
--------------------------------------------------------

well, no - I'm judging it based on my kids' teachers, how my kids are growing in knowledge, what the teachers show me they are doing to teach the kids, and how the officer personnel treats me when I see them - that "real life" stuff that you dont get off this here intra-web. Dont even know about the teacher's union. Maybe you should try thinking for yourself and question YOURSELF, as you have this idea that everything is against you.

Ok, just don't pay any attention to what's going on in the news besides FOX news. You are just a troll and a waste of time. Later

fivestroke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The fact is, school teachers are professionals
> that best serve our community by living in our
> community. Fairfax County is an expensive place
> to live, therefore teachers should be paid enough
> to live in Fairfax County comfortably.

Interesting opinion, but nothing to back it up. People on the lower end of the wage scale (which includes teachers around here) have always lived further away from the community center, or in lower cost areas within the community. This is why the guys that mow your lawn and trim your trees live in Manassas or Sterling Park.

Teachers don't have a 'right' to live in the community where they work. If that's your approach, what about everyone else? Road crews, carpenters, lawn guys? You are going to need to give everyone below the median income level a big raise to meet your standard.

unworkable Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fivestroke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The fact is, school teachers are professionals
> > that best serve our community by living in our
> > community. Fairfax County is an expensive
> place
> > to live, therefore teachers should be paid
> enough
> > to live in Fairfax County comfortably.
>
> Interesting opinion, but nothing to back it up.
> People on the lower end of the wage scale (which
> includes teachers around here) have always lived
> further away from the community center, or in
> lower cost areas within the community. This is
> why the guys that mow your lawn and trim your
> trees live in Manassas or Sterling Park.
>
> Teachers don't have a 'right' to live in the
> community where they work. If that's your
> approach, what about everyone else? Road crews,
> carpenters, lawn guys? You are going to need to
> give everyone below the median income level a big
> raise to meet your standard.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Road crews, carpenters, and lawn guys actually make MORE than most teachers do in this area. The lawn guys are the ones with the nice racer cars. The road crew and carpenter guys all have boats and big ass trucks. You really need to get out more.

LoLz

"Teachers don't have a 'right' to live in the community where they work."


Do their kids have a "right" to go to the same schools where they teach? Do the firefighters and police have a "right" to be protected by the same organization that they work for?

Is it not "right" for people who work in community oriented occupations to have a chance to fully participate in those communities after work as well? Does this not make them more committed to their work? They are both "stakeholders and stockholders" in the community this way---it's a very strong bond.

Good idea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Teachers don't have a 'right' to live in the
> community where they work."
>
>
> Do their kids have a "right" to go to the same
> schools where they teach? Do the firefighters and
> police have a "right" to be protected by the same
> organization that they work for?
>
> Is it not "right" for people who work in community
> oriented occupations to have a chance to fully
> participate in those communities after work as
> well? Does this not make them more committed to
> their work? They are both "stakeholders and
> stockholders" in the community this way---it's a
> very strong bond.

They have every OPPORTUNITY to go to the same schools. They do not have a RIGHT. There is a difference. You are suggested creating an entire new entitlement for municipal employees - that wherever they work, the community owes either a high enough wage or some sort of subsidy to be able to afford local housing.

Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are two very different things. The former rewards achievement, the latter stifles it.

NOVAman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, just don't pay any attention to what's going
> on in the news besides FOX news. You are just a
> troll and a waste of time. Later
-----------------------------------------------

this is usually how ppl with no gas behind their arguments end them.

btw, I dont watch Faux News. Real news comes from France 24, RT, or Al Jazeera...........

unworkable Wrote:
>
> They have every OPPORTUNITY to go to the same
> schools. They do not have a RIGHT. There is a
> difference. You are suggested creating an entire
> new entitlement for municipal employees - that
> wherever they work, the community owes either a
> high enough wage or some sort of subsidy to be
> able to afford local housing.
>
> Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome
> are two very different things. The former rewards
> achievement, the latter stifles it.


I agree with you on this. My wife and I are both teachers. After 16 years of communting from PW County we were able to move close to our workplaces, but there are many people who commute because of the COL near their jobs. We have a right to live, but not a right to live near our work.

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Road crews, carpenters, and lawn guys actually
> make MORE than most teachers do in this area. The
> lawn guys are the ones with the nice racer cars.
> The road crew and carpenter guys all have boats
> and big ass trucks. You really need to get out
> more.
>
> LoLz

I hope you are being just being silly.

Truth is, tradesmen were harder hit by the recession and the housing crunch. Teachers were not nearly as impacted.

The trademen you talk about who have race cars and boats are for the most ones who own their own companies or have worked for a long time. And they spend a lot of money maintaining these recreational devices.

Dale City and Gainesville are good enough for the man who roofed your house or paved your driveway. Plenty good enough for FCPS teachers.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

Wingnut you have the same thought process as the NAZI's. Teaching is a job. No teacher is asking to make a kings ransom. They just want to be able to live where they work or close enough so thier quality of life is that of most other people.

You state that teachers should not be paid for thier education. With that reasoning doctors should not be paid for thier education. Or laywers.

The fact is.....In this world we value education and reward people for have continued thier education.

Wingnut as a human being you sicken me. There is a vaule to education and teachers are an improtant part of our social make up.

Thank god you don't have kids.

FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!

And just so you know. NO I am not a teacher.

NAZI's?!?!

In bold letters even? I think Nazi's actually liked the Big State, Big Government Bureaucracy structure. Pretty sorry and pathetic route to go calling someones thought process Nazi.

I think teachers should be paid for their ability and performance, not a degree that cost a lot of money. If the degree is so valuable, the teachers performance should be measurably better. Show us it is not just a piece of paper and stop treating it as a ticket to better pay.

Of course we value education, no one is saying we shouldn't. An education, a degree and performance are separate entities.

Why then has school budget spending increased 4 and 5x and student academic performance has basically stayed level??

I've included enough charts and stats here to justify at least a debate.

You have NOTHING but name calling.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

@ You Idiot.
1) What in the world did Wingnut say to be compared to Nazis?

2)He is not saying teachers should not get paid for their education. He is saying that 2nd grade teachers dont need PHD's. Want to be a physics professor?, sure, get your PHD. He is saying that the educational requirements to teach lower level education could or should be lowered or kept at a 4 year degree level.

@tgcwb and unworkable - Bravo. Thank you for sharing the fundamental difference between a right and an opportunity with us. I thought is was very well put; and to the Teacher couple for sharing their personal and professional insight.

Basically, I am a salesman. I could get a PHD in advanced nuclear physics but I would not expect my company to pay me for that expertise unless I was in the business of selling power plants, warheads etc etc...

Also, just to take this out of the fairytale, lala land of Fairfax County... Consider how many people in how many professions commute, They travel in droves across the woodrow wilson, key bridge, American Legion, Rt 50, They come in from Orange, West Virginia and Stafford. Though some may commute for reasons other than cost of living near the office (They like a neighborhood, have kids in school, want to stay near family and friends) many commute to defray the costs of living around here.

Personally, I sell in DC but cannot afford the same quality of life that I am provided living in Virginia. So what I do is make lots of friends where I do live and party heavily.. But I guess thats neither here nor there

WingNut Wrote:

> I hope you are being just being silly.
>
> Truth is, tradesmen were harder hit by the
> recession and the housing crunch. Teachers were
> not nearly as impacted.
>
> The trademen you talk about who have race cars and
> boats are for the most ones who own their own
> companies or have worked for a long time. And they
> spend a lot of money maintaining these
> recreational devices.
>
> Dale City and Gainesville are good enough for the
> man who roofed your house or paved your driveway.
> Plenty good enough for FCPS teachers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

so to summarize yr thesis here, you are saying that the kids should be taught by ppl who roof the house or pave the driveway?

Um, I think I'll stick with FCPS, thank you VERY much........

ROFLMAO!!!!

p.s. gotta agree with Jbass - dont know how Wingnut's being a nazi. a dork, maybe, not no, not a nazi

LoLz



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 09:50AM by Gordon Blvd.

Ok maybe not a seal monkey (paving guy) or a roofer but how about electricians? Home Builders?

My grandfather ran a crew that built half of NoVa in the 70's. Ill bet if he was in charge of the schools there would be A LOT less fucking around today. I know he was one of the only people who could ever keep my ass in line,

An electricians, Well you sleep comfprtabally and dont often think about your house, school, office burning down. I'll bet half of fairfax teachers couldnt comprehend the materials required to obtain a master electrician certificate.

Insurance agents, accountants, pharmacy techs, I can think of tons of working professionals that would fall under this same category.

JBass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok maybe not a seal monkey (paving guy) or a
> roofer but how about electricians? Home Builders?
>
>
> My grandfather ran a crew that built half of NoVa
> in the 70's. Ill bet if he was in charge of the
> schools there would be A LOT less fucking around
> today. I know he was one of the only people who
> could ever keep my ass in line,
>
> An electricians, Well you sleep comfprtabally and
> dont often think about your house, school, office
> burning down. I'll bet half of fairfax teachers
> couldnt comprehend the materials required to
> obtain a master electrician certificate.
>
> Insurance agents, accountants, pharmacy techs, I
> can think of tons of working professionals that
> would fall under this same category.


Well, I think that's the case for most highly trained jobs. Our University system and job market requires high degrees of specialization. I hire an electrician because he knows a hell of a lot about it more than I do. Same thing with a dr, lawyer, etc.

The market puts a price on all of these skills. Teachers top out at 100K in FCPS - I bet a motivated electrician that wants to own his own company can make many multiples of that, a Specialist Dr can make 10X that. No one is forcing a teacher to choose that professional - they are doing it (hopefully) because they enjoy it, or maybe they don't enjoy it but like the benefits of excellent job security, summers off, etc. Either way, it does not give them to right to live across the street from the school just because that's where they work, especially if it's in an area that a lot of doctors have decided to live and drive up property values.

Teachers work for the gov't - when times are good, it'll be ok, When the economy is bad and tax receipts are down, it's going to suck. Same thing applies to any job that's tied to the general health of the economy - airlines, hotels, tourism, retail, etc. What's different now is that gov't has become such a big part of the economy that it's just as sensitive to an economic downtown as say a retail store. We've never thought of gov't that way because it's only grown so large over the last 20 years or so. In recessions past, it was the consumer goods companies that laid people off in droves in a recession. Now it's the government.

Who taught the electricians how to do thier jobs???????

Wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who taught the electricians how to do thier
> jobs???????

Master electricians, most likely.

If you use the comparison of electricians you run into a few problems.

The electrician who has started his own business has assumed a considerable risk and investment. The electrician (with his own business) is working for himself and responsible soley for putting food on his table. If he can't find work, he does not eat. He is not only being an electrician, but a business manager and marketer.

The electrician with his own business also assumes a huge professional liability and responsibilty in working with current, hiring/firing employees or just driving to jobsites.

Now if a teacher goes to start his/her own school or do something in private industry that relates to education, it is a different but valid comparison. Comparing a publicly employed electrician to a publicy employed teacher would be more similar.

Public workers are paid by our taxes, private workers are not.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The electrician who has started his own business
> has assumed a considerable risk and investment.
> The electrician (with his own business) is working
> for himself and responsible soley for putting food
> on his table. If he can't find work, he does not
> eat. He is not only being an electrician, but a
> business manager and marketer.
>
> The electrician with his own business also assumes
> a huge professional liability and responsibilty in
> working with current, hiring/firing employees or
> just driving to jobsites.
>
> Now if a teacher goes to start his/her own school
> or do something in private industry that relates
> to education, it is a different but valid
> comparison. Comparing a publicly employed
> electrician to a publicy employed teacher would be
> more similar.
>
> Public workers are paid by our taxes, private
> workers are not.


Completely agree. That's what I meant by saying an electrician that starts his own business - you've laid out the risk/reward equation, and thats true for any business owner. For any given year, your income may swing wildly up or down, and the only person that's really accountable for that is you.

Imagine a teacher, or for that matter most employees, being told -

'You may make 50K this year, or you may make 200K, or you could go broke, and where you end up is mainly dependent upon your efforts, but can easily be effected by weather, illness, the economy, etc. We'll know how it will all work out at the end of the year, and then we'll do that all over again next year. While this is going on, your suppliers, employees, bank, customers, and even your family will expect you to meet all of your financial obligations and expect you to be the first to take any financial loss, because the risk/reward is completely yours'

Wingnut, good points. Teachers dont just have to teach though, especially if they chose to take advanced education courses. They can earn extra money through the schools for running clubs, sports teams, a host of after school activities. They can also utilize their skills without opening a school or working part time for the school. They can tutor, work at a tutoring facility, teach night classes, market themselves and their skill-set just like the electrician can.

Property Appraisers would be another GREAT comparison. 5 years ago these guys were making a killing. Now tho only property appraisers with ANY stability work to asses tax values for the county. As one of my friends does, he deferred earnings then for security, county benefits and retirement plan now. Smart man. He lives 2 counties away from where he works. Cant afford to live here, never could.

Ut videam () also strengthens my argument, master electricians teach master electricians, PHD's should teach PHD's Masters should teach masters. Bachelors degrees can teach 4 year degrees and any early education.

JBass.
Teachers teach students. To be a master electrician you need a license. To get that license you need to take an exam. to take that exam you have to take classses. Those classes ar taught by teachers.

You have to consider apprenticeship programs also, on-the-job training is very different from classroom teaching.


Still, it is unfair to conflate the job of teaching for FCPS with all it's perks, comforts and benefits with taking a risk and starting your own business of any type.

You can argue that the teachers made an investment by getting an education,
and I do not disagree there.

I do disagree with the notion that a PhD should entitle one to a higher salary, particularly if teacher with the PhD cannot point to better testing or performance by his students or if the PhD is not required for the position that hass been filled.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

@ Wow, yes Master Electricians teach people to be Master Electricians. Lawyers teach people to be lawyers, Accountants teach accounting, Doctors teach at med school. Is there a point in your boot-strapping thought process or were you simply helping confirm my point.

Doctors teach doctors, So you can not tell with a straight face that a 3rd grader needs to be taught by a PHD.

I worked with a server once; 45 year old single lady with a Masters in Literature. She made the same $2.13 an hour as I did.

Now what I am getting at with this is that a masters in Lit has nothing to do with slanign BBQ. And there may be some, small fraction of IB, special ed classes that require further knowledge of the child developmental process than their regular class counterparts. So these people, IF they have a masters or PHD, in say "teaching autism" or "teaching child genesis" require a higher salary then it is justified. However, if you take 2 teachers, same school, same grade, same number of years teaching etc, and one has a masters and the other does not, Why would one make more money? If their students have similar required material, SOL, test scores, graduation rates, the pay should be the same.

JBass
Have you ever been a teacher? I have not but I don't plan on telling someone that you are over qulified for a job I have never done.

as for how much more a teacher in FCPS get for have thier PHD its about $3,000 a year. It cost a hell of a lot more to get a PHD.

$3000 a year is about $300 a month. the county budget is going to get blown wide open with those lavish numbers.

Just so everyone knows. In order to get a teaching license in the state of virginia now, you have to have a masters in education. those who have been teaching before this requirement went into effect where gradfathered in.

I can tell a Doctor they are overqualified to re a receptionist, though Ive never done either. An engineer is over-qualified to be a trashman. I am over qualified at my current position, my boss told me so during the interview, I make the same as my coleagues that are adequately qualified. I made this decision to make a change in career industry. My long term benefits outweigh the short-term reduction in pay.

I would say am completely qualified to tell someone they are over-qualified for a job I have never done.

but how do you tell a teacher they are over qualified to be a teacher?

Wow SAYS "Just so everyone knows. In order to get a teaching license in the state of virginia now, you have to have a masters in education. those who have been teaching before this requirement went into effect where gradfathered in."

Please oh please, support this with a shred of truth.

http://www.teacher-world.com/statespages/Virginia.html Read the 3rd and 4th paragraphs.

Not o mention the dozen close personal friends of mine who teach in VA have never mentioned this to me.

Anfter 5 minutes on Google I have found absolutely nothing that supports your claim. No legislation, support nor opponent, blogs, posts, articles. Nothing.

These are some of the "defenses" I have heard for teachers salaries. I find none of them worthy and frankly insulting to the taxpayer,

1)"Don't You Care About the Children/Don't You Want the Best?"
Of course we do, but these phrases has been reduced to a meaningless salesmans patter by their overuse. Very often tire, HVAC, insurance companies and just about everyone else trying to market a product to families takes this route-"its for the kids and you are a bad parent if you do not buy"

2)"I am Taking a Paycut to Do This, But I Find It Rewarding"
Could be so, but you are also putting your financial stabilty as well as your families at risk because you have chosen a job that gives you self-gratification instead of concentrating on breadwinning. Having a satisfying job is nice but few of us can reach such a level. Are dishwashers and ditch diggers bad people because they don't find their jobs gratifying? Is it a type of arrogance or selfishness to seek a job that is personally gratifying? I've learned that virtue is its own reward in this world. If you do nice things for people, you should do it for that reason only- not for applause or compensation.

3)"Schools Are DANGEROUS Places!"
This is patently absurd, particularly when referring to FCPS. There is no denying there are drugs and gangs in some schools, but disciplinary policy is stricter than it was a decade or two ago and there are very rarely incidences of violence between students (besides an occasional fistfight) and I seriously doubt many teachers (if any) have been physically injured by a student. More hyperbolic drivel that tries to appropiate the real dangers teachers regularly face in inner city schools.

No responses to my original posts provided much more than hysterical and emotion driven defenses of teachers salaries.

If FCPS really is #1 now, I would be perfectly happy to see the county shave a few tens of millions from the budget and see us at #2 or #3.

I believe in the students, I do not believe in the teachers.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 02:42PM by WingNut.

to wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just so everyone knows. In order to get a
> teaching license in the state of virginia now,
> you have to have a masters in education. those
> who have been teaching before this requirement
> went into effect where gradfathered in.

You, sir, are full of shit.

Quote

8VAC20-22-40. Conditions for licensure.
A. Applicants for licensure must:
1. Be at least 18 years of age;
2. Pay the appropriate fees as determined by the Board of Education and
complete the application process;
3. Have earned a baccalaureate degree (with the exception of the Technical
Professional License) from a regionally accredited institution of higher
education and meet requirements for the license sought. Persons seeking
initial licensure who graduate from Virginia institutions of higher education
shall only be licensed as instructional personnel by the Board of Education if
the endorsement areas offered at such institutions have been assessed by a
national accrediting agency or by a state approval process with final approval
by the Board of Education; and
4. Possess good moral character (free of conditions outlined in Part VII
(8VAC20-22-690 et seq.) of this chapter.

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching/licensure/licensure_regs.pdf

to Wingnut

Columbine is in a school district very much like FCPS.

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to Wingnut
>
> Columbine is in a school district very much like
> FCPS.

You too funny.

I'm not going to even look for stats, that is a moronic statement and I doubt you believe it makes FCPS dangerous.

Thanks for playing though!

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to Wingnut
>
> Columbine is in a school district very much like
> FCPS.


And...............?

Posting non sequiturs really doesn't help your argument. What are we supposed to infer from this - that a low pay raise leads to massacres? That a teacher with a PhD would have stopped what happened there? If you go from the merits of pay for advanced degrees to Columbine, you just blown any credibility you might have.

The thought that any area could be similar to Fairfax County, AKA lala land is indeed laughable at best. The overprivledged, under chored spoiled lil brats in this county would probably shutter in their topsiders and Uugs if they had to spend a single day in almost any other public school in the entire nation.

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JBass
> Have you ever been a teacher? I have not but I
> don't plan on telling someone that you are over
> qulified for a job I have never done.
>
> as for how much more a teacher in FCPS get for
> have thier PHD its about $3,000 a year. It cost a
> hell of a lot more to get a PHD.

I know that it is on the payscale, but in my 18 years of teaching elementary students for FCPS, I don't believe I have ever met an elementary school teacher with a PhD.

JBass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thought that any area could be similar to
> Fairfax County, AKA lala land is indeed laughable
> at best. The overprivledged, under chored spoiled
> lil brats in this county would probably shutter in
> their topsiders and Uugs if they had to spend a
> single day in almost any other public school in
> the entire nation.
------------------------------------------------------

ROFLMAO!!!

so true, SOOOOOOOOO true!!!!!

tgbwc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > JBass
> > Have you ever been a teacher? I have not but I
> > don't plan on telling someone that you are over
> > qulified for a job I have never done.
> >
> > as for how much more a teacher in FCPS get for
> > have thier PHD its about $3,000 a year. It cost
> a
> > hell of a lot more to get a PHD.
>
> I know that it is on the payscale, but in my 18
> years of teaching elementary students for FCPS, I
> don't believe I have ever met an elementary school
> teacher with a PhD.

-------------------------------------------------------

what's really funny is how the OP is so convinced how ALL teachers are making 80+ thousand a year LoLz

calling your bs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Absolute, total teacher union bullshit. That
> would mean, on average, a teacher spends more on
> schools supplies than clothes, healthcare, or
> entertainment. NFW.
>
> http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-the-average-us-
> consumer-spends-their-paycheck/
--------------------------------------------------------------------


let me guess - you dont have kids in elementary school, do you?

Cause I can tell you for the last two years, I know from fact that my kids teachers have been paying for lotsa the crap that's in their classrooms. No, not everything, cause I've been shelling out bucks too.

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> calling your bs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Absolute, total teacher union bullshit. That
> > would mean, on average, a teacher spends more
> on
> > schools supplies than clothes, healthcare, or
> > entertainment. NFW.
> >
> >
> http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-the-average-us-
>
> > consumer-spends-their-paycheck/
> --------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
>
>
> let me guess - you dont have kids in elementary
> school, do you?

I do as a matter of fact.
>
> Cause I can tell you for the last two years, I
> know from fact that my kids teachers have been
> paying for lotsa the crap that's in their
> classrooms. No, not everything, cause I've been
> shelling out bucks too.

To the tune of 8% of their salary as the previous post said? More than they pay in FICA deductions? I'm not buying it.

Average teacher salary in FCPS is just over 62K. That's means a teacher is spending close to 5K a year on classroom supplies? As I said before, NFW.

calling your bs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> To the tune of 8% of their salary as the previous
> post said? More than they pay in FICA deductions?
> I'm not buying it.
>
> Average teacher salary in FCPS is just over 62K.
> That's means a teacher is spending close to 5K a
> year on classroom supplies? As I said before,
> NFW.

I'd guess that I spend maybe $120 +/- a year for my 3rd grade class. Our PTA will reimburse up to $75 per school year, so I usually will get a few things with that in mind.

Tgcwb, anyasters grads? In education or unrelated fields? My elementary school principal obtained her PHD while working at the school back in the mid 80s.

*masters grads*

calling your bs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> To the tune of 8% of their salary as the previous
> post said? More than they pay in FICA deductions?
> I'm not buying it.
>
> Average teacher salary in FCPS is just over 62K.
> That's means a teacher is spending close to 5K a
> year on classroom supplies? As I said before,
> NFW.


now that one, I'll give ya

cause more than likely, I'm spending 8% of my salary on supplies

LoLz

Jbass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tgcwb, anyasters grads? In education or unrelated
> fields? My elementary school principal obtained
> her PHD while working at the school back in the
> mid 80s.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are asking: "Masters grads? In education or unrelated fields?" If you are asking about elementary teachers with Masters degrees, there are many. I personally don't know of any with a PhD.

PhDs are pretty rare. There are lots of Masters. Lots of people have double or triple or quadruple (or more) certifications. Maybe they should be paid for those instead of for advanced degrees? That's another way to compensate that has not been done.

Another thing is that teachers are required to obtain recertification points (it's a state requirement). These can be obtained in many ways, but some of those ways cost money (in terms of personal time and money). The requirement is 180 hours every 5 years (so that's about 35 hours per year). That's almost an extra week of work per year for those of you who like to count how much teachers work. They also have to pay the recertification fee. I think it's around $35.

comment Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Another thing is that teachers are required to
> obtain recertification points (it's a state
> requirement). These can be obtained in many ways,
> but some of those ways cost money (in terms of
> personal time and money). The requirement is 180
> hours every 5 years (so that's about 35 hours per
> year). That's almost an extra week of work per
> year for those of you who like to count how much
> teachers work. They also have to pay the
> recertification fee. I think it's around $35.

Basically it is two 3 credit courses over the five years (30 points for each credit hour). I did pay for my masters classes (one class per year was reimbursed), but other than that I haven't paid for recertification courses. FCPS offers "Academy Courses" which count towards recertification. FCPS also covers the recertification fee.

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NOVAman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Ok, just don't pay any attention to what's
> going
> > on in the news besides FOX news. You are just a
> > troll and a waste of time. Later
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> this is usually how ppl with no gas behind their
> arguments end them.
>
> btw, I dont watch Faux News. Real news comes from
> France 24, RT, or Al Jazeera...........


I agree Fox does an awful job of reporting "fair and balanced" news, but i must disagree on RT being a wonderful organization. RT seems to be very watered down with hints of anti American sentiment. They also go off on random pointless tangents with the wackiest guests.

BBC is what I find myself watching and reading these days.

Every news outlet is full of shit to a point, rather it is newspaper, radio or TV.

Commercial TV will always have a subtle bias toward corporations as their revenues are advertising based. "Public" television wil always have at least a subtle bias towards suporting the hand that feed them, Big Government. It doesn't matter what nation you get your news from, they all have soemthing of a bias.

Now you have to get your news from someplace though, and the trick is to have the knowledge and interprative skills to decipher what the message really is sometimes. As a broken clock is right twice daily, biased news sources still can sometimes not avoid reporting the truth, but often one must draw their own conclusions to find reality.

If you want freindly faces you are comfortable with like Sean Hannity, Chris Matthews, etc to report to you the truth, you are deluding yourself.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

tgbwc () - My apologies. Yes, I meant People with masters degrees/ Grad Students. I must have been a bit loopy on the couch last night.

Comment - "continual education" hours are common and required in many professions,
Insurance Agents, Lawyers, Accountants, CDL drivers, Cosmetology, design, architecture, the list would go on and on and on. I understand that it is not fun but it just doesn't put teachers light-years ahead of other professions in terms of commitment and time.

tgbwc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> comment Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Another thing is that teachers are required to
> > obtain recertification points (it's a state
> > requirement). These can be obtained in many
> ways,
> > but some of those ways cost money (in terms of
> > personal time and money). The requirement is
> 180
> > hours every 5 years (so that's about 35 hours
> per
> > year). That's almost an extra week of work per
> > year for those of you who like to count how
> much
> > teachers work. They also have to pay the
> > recertification fee. I think it's around $35.
>
> Basically it is two 3 credit courses over the five
> years (30 points for each credit hour). I did pay
> for my masters classes (one class per year was
> reimbursed), but other than that I haven't paid
> for recertification courses. FCPS offers "Academy
> Courses" which count towards recertification. FCPS
> also covers the recertification fee.


Thanks for cutting through the spin, tgbwc. So the state sets the requirements for recert, and FCPS picks up the tab. I assume the Academy Courses are what goes on during those in service days?

facts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tgbwc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > comment Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > Another thing is that teachers are required
> to
> > > obtain recertification points (it's a state
> > > requirement). These can be obtained in many
> > ways,
> > > but some of those ways cost money (in terms
> of
> > > personal time and money). The requirement is
> > 180
> > > hours every 5 years (so that's about 35 hours
> > per
> > > year). That's almost an extra week of work
> per
> > > year for those of you who like to count how
> > much
> > > teachers work. They also have to pay the
> > > recertification fee. I think it's around
> $35.
> >
> > Basically it is two 3 credit courses over the
> five
> > years (30 points for each credit hour). I did
> pay
> > for my masters classes (one class per year was
> > reimbursed), but other than that I haven't paid
> > for recertification courses. FCPS offers
> "Academy
> > Courses" which count towards recertification.
> FCPS
> > also covers the recertification fee.
>
>
> Thanks for cutting through the spin, tgbwc. So
> the state sets the requirements for recert, and
> FCPS picks up the tab. I assume the Academy
> Courses are what goes on during those in service
> days?


No problem. Academy courses are courses that occur after school. In-service days are a whole different animal. For example, I took an Academy course this winter that was worth 1 point (30 credit hours). It was offered through FCPS, but it was from 4:30-7:30 p.m. and was five classes (one day a week for five weeks). Because I have my Masters I can take 6 of those types of courses over 5 years to recertify. If a teacher has a BA/BS, then at least one 90 credit class out of the 180 has to be a "college content" course.

-------------------------------------------------------
> NOVAman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >- one the principle reasons ...>

> I know, I know...don't confuse you with the facts.


Seems you are a little confused by the grammar. Consider consultation with a teacher.

Keep trying. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NOVAman Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >- one the principle reasons ...>
>
> > I know, I know...don't confuse you with the
> facts.
>
>
> Seems you are a little confused by the grammar.
> Consider consultation with a teacher.
Attachments:

Correction to "Who actually cares?" Most thankfully, the answer is A TEACHER.

Not all fcps positions are given salary credit for advanced degrees. Teachers are. Administrators are not. Like anybody else working through a Ph.D. program, when administrators finally complete them after years of work, there is no salary credit waiting on the other side.

I think teachers get this credit to help create opportunities for horizonal growth. There are thousands of teachers in Fairfax County. Parents would like to keep them here (at least the highest quality ones). Under the current evaluation system, the only way for a teacher to advance in salary is through step increases based on time in service, and/or a cost of living increase. It works alongside evaluation; you have to be recommended for reappointment to receive the step increase. But is the twenty year veteran a better teacher than the fourth year teacher? In some cases yes, but in others, no. Teachers who are expanding their expertise with ongoing professional development are better qualified teachers working with our students. The state has a minimum requirement for continuing education credits (180 points every five years; the equivalent of two college classes). Giving credit for advanced degrees allows teachers who go beyond the state minimum to receive additional money for every fifteen college credits they earn. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best we have at the moment. When we consider topics like merit pay, etc., there are other factors that have to be considered. With education, it is all on the teacher. Are they doing the work to grow? Is it demonstrated through the evaluation process? If the answer is yes, they get the raise. A fair consideration considering many teach for 30+ years. Rather than linear advancement, they are credited for lateral achievement.

Keep trying. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Correction to "Who actually cares?" Most
> thankfully, the answer is A TEACHER.

---------------------------------------------------------
Attachments:

I got my ass chewed by a girlfriend with a masters and a 2nd grAde teacher because of my on this thread... All I'm trying to say is " I'm hot for teacher"

WingNut is the only person here with sound logical reasoning skills. Christ. And I hope that he continues to get all the idiots riled up >:l

JBass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got my ass chewed by a girlfriend with a masters
> and a 2nd grAde teacher because of my on this
> thread... All I'm trying to say is " I'm hot for
> teacher"


Tossing your salad? Now that's a naughty schoolmarm!

The only Nazi I know of right now is Obama....oh, yeah and the "Czars" he appointed...

go wingnut!

Not necessarily on the exact same topic but there is an interesting co-relation to this article-

http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/10/peter-thiel-were-in-a-bubble-and-its-not-the-internet-its-higher-education/



"It used to be a given that a college education was always worth the investment– even if you had to take out student loans to get one. But over the last year, as unemployment hovers around double digits, the cost of universities soars and kids graduate and move back home with their parents, the once-heretical question of whether education is worth the exorbitant price has started to be re-examined even by the most hard-core members of American intelligensia."

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I work for commission sales and I am completely
> independant, no government or boss tit here, thank
> you very much.
>
> Teachers have told me their jobs are worth so
> much, why? Is it because your college degree cost
> so much? That what me thinks.
>
> Why is cost per student so much less, even in the
> semi-socialist nations in Europe and why are their
> profeciency scores better?
>
> Just asking.


I guess you were just spit out of your mommas slit with all this worldy brain power to run the many companies you claim you do....and be able to make all that money and rental properties AND have time to spend THIS much time on an internet web board bitching about something instead of DOING something about it.

Hence why I call BS to your claims....a person who WOULD run several companies/rentals/self employed would NOT spend this time wasted online bitching...he would be calling his local congressman, mayor, councel member...making things happen....

LOL people, don't feed the troll

Called out by an anonymous poster?

I offered a little info about my work and financial life because some of the "teachers" and supporters of Big Education here questioned my credentials or even tried to lump me into a blue collar or low paying trade as some kind of disqualifiaction to question our current system and where my state and local taxes go.

I do run three small businesses (not companies) and spend between 30 and 60 hours a week on them, I have plenty of time in my semi-busy day to post here, and I do write the local politicos from time to time too, though I enjoy a little back and forth here better than receiving form letters.

Thanks for coming back, though, you have kept me entertained for several minutes and I look forward to your response, even though you imply you are bigger and better than this...

Anyway I'm not sure why someone questions so much about the messenger, but refuses to address the ideas that I originally presented-

1) Teachers are perhaps overpaid

2)Teachers are perhaps overpaid because many have degrees of higher learning.

3) Are Phds and Masters really necessary for some teaching positions?

4) Is it the taxpayers fault or problem that many teachers chose to pursue higher degrees and is it our obligation to pay them more because of their acheivement and/or student loan debts?


I am starting to see this as an Education-Industry Complex not dissimilar to the incestous relationship with defense and government, the only difference being scale and locality.




your problem is obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WingNut Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I work for commission sales and I am completely
> > independant, no government or boss tit here,
> thank
> > you very much.
> >
> > Teachers have told me their jobs are worth so
> > much, why? Is it because your college degree
> cost
> > so much? That what me thinks.
> >
> > Why is cost per student so much less, even in
> the
> > semi-socialist nations in Europe and why are
> their
> > profeciency scores better?
> >
> > Just asking.
>
>
> I guess you were just spit out of your mommas slit
> with all this worldy brain power to run the many
> companies you claim you do....and be able to make
> all that money and rental properties AND have time
> to spend THIS much time on an internet web board
> bitching about something instead of DOING
> something about it.
>
> Hence why I call BS to your claims....a person who
> WOULD run several companies/rentals/self employed
> would NOT spend this time wasted online
> bitching...he would be calling his local
> congressman, mayor, councel member...making things
> happen....
>
> LOL people, don't feed the troll

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

Perspective Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> teachers get this credit to help create
> opportunities for horizonal growth. There are
> thousands of teachers in Fairfax County. Parents
> would like to keep them here (at least the highest
> quality ones). Under the current evaluation
> system, the only way for a teacher to advance in
> salary is through step increases based on time in
> service, and/or a cost of living increase. It
> works alongside evaluation; you have to be
> recommended for reappointment to receive the step
> increase. But is the twenty year veteran a better
> teacher than the fourth year teacher? In some
> cases yes, but in others, no. Teachers who are
> expanding their expertise with ongoing
> professional development are better qualified
> teachers working with our students. The state has
> a minimum requirement for continuing education
> credits (180 points every five years; the
> equivalent of two college classes). Giving credit
> for advanced degrees allows teachers who go beyond
> the state minimum to receive additional money for
> every fifteen college credits they earn. It's not
> a perfect system, but it's the best we have at the
> moment. When we consider topics like merit pay,
> etc., there are other factors that have to be
> considered. With education, it is all on the
> teacher. Are they doing the work to grow? Is it
> demonstrated through the evaluation process? If
> the answer is yes, they get the raise. A fair
> consideration considering many teach for 30+
> years. Rather than linear advancement, they are
> credited for lateral achievement.


Answers were given.

But just to be clear:

1. Teachers are paid at the rate deemed to be fair market value, same as any other profession.

2. More educated, higher qualified, highly trained teachers make more money. When they continue to develop their skills and strengths over the years, they become even better teachers for the students, and leaders within their profession.

3. While a minimum number of continuing education credits are required by the state for continued licensure, there is no requirement for Masters or Ph.D. degrees. But Fairfax County values the ability to put the best prepared teacher in the classroom and is willing to pay more to support this.

4. It is not the taxpayers' "fault" that teachers continue advancing in their careers. It is their fortune. There is not a lot of linear career advancement for teachers. First year teachers and tenth year teachers have the same title, even if the tenth year teacher holds several school leadership positions and takes on extra responsibilities. If teachers want to advance linearly, their options normally include having to change jobs (ex. go into education administration). Within the teacher level of a career track, continuing education credits are the most fair way we have to reward advancement of skills and strengths over (hopefully) a long and worthwhile career.

Bonus answers:

Can newer, less qualified, less educated teachers be found? Sure.

Is that the very best teacher we can put in front of students? No.
But we realize we have to start them somewhere. With careful planning, there are seasoned, experienced teacher leaders/mentors to collaborate with and show him/her the way.

Should the system pay teachers one standard salary and give no incentive for getting better at their craft over the course of a career? No, not if we want to attract the best and the brightest and want them to stick around over a career's worth of time. We want them to be rewarded both intrinsically and extrinsically for continued professional development. This is the best way we can ensure the best for our students.

Should salaries be based soley on years of experience? No. It's just one indicator.

Just on education? No. Learning by doing (classroom time) is also important.

Just on evaluation? No. While that system is improved in it's standardization, it still leaves it all up to just one person, the supervisor.

Should it be tied to student achievement scores? Maybe...that one's being debated. The issue is how to isolate the teacher's impact on the students without being penalized/rewarded for extenuating factors.

In my opinion, education credits serve the same purpose as merit pay, but in a better way. It rewards the quality of the teacher and removes some of the uncontrolled variables.

I am a teacher in FCPS. I already have a master's degree. I am not looking for a PhD. I know that I will not be getting any pay raises anytime soon no matter what I do. I am going on year 3 at the same salary (actually lower because I am having my contract shortened). I am going to lose 12% of my income over the next 2 years due to a shortening of my contract (I was an 11 month employee, but am being reduced).

That said, I would like to take a class to further my knowledge this summer. Fairfax County used to reimburse for teachers to take one class per year. No more. This is a class that is directly related to my teaching.

If the system does not pay for Master's or PhD's, would you taxpayers be willing to pay for teachers to take courses and at least pay for their educational advancement? I believe that being a continuing student helps me to be a better teacher. What say you?

I think that taking classes helps keep up a teacher's enthusiasm. However, these should be classes in education (or subject matter) and not "fun" classes that are sometimes allowed for credit.

To the question of new teachers vs. old teachers:

My personal opinion is that the best schools have a mix of experienced and fresh teachers. A new teacher frequently makes up in enthusiasm what he/she lacks in experience. New teachers also bring a fresh air to experienced teachers (if these teachers are open to new ideas.) It is up to the principal to demand that teachers are open to new ideas--that does not mean that a teacher has to use them but that they at least listen and think about them. If a teacher is not willing to listen to new ideas, it is time to leave.

I doubt I was the best teacher in the world, but I do think that my skills improved every year. However, it is very easy to get into a complaining and burned out mode. I found that classes and workshops in teaching helped prevent this. While I may not have agreed with what the instructors presented, it made me think about my own approach to my students. The problem is when the system demands that teachers give up what works for them. For example, a few years ago FCPS adopted the "whole language" approach to reading. There are a lot of good ideas in this program--but an inexperienced teacher might not find the structure that he/she needs there. A good primary teacher has always used the "whole language" approach, but it should not be an excuse to lose structure.

FCPS should provide money for classes for teachers when the budget allows.

Former teacher wrote:

"I think that taking classes helps keep up a teacher's enthusiasm. However, these should be classes in education (or subject matter) and not "fun" classes that are sometimes allowed for credit."

I would like to believe that a class that has substance can be fun and/or interesting. It's what I try to create with my own students.

Maybe we need a foundation in Fairfax County to support professional development for our teachers?

While it's hard to raise property taxes when the economy stinks and many homeowners are already hurting, I think we need to explore how to ensure that teachers can continue their professional learning. I strongly believe that the more they advance and enhance their own professional learning, the more students benefit.

Your son's physics teacher went to the Naval Academy and served in the Navy as a commander of a nuclear sub. He is tough and by far the best teacher at WSHS. He is the ONLY teacher at WSHS who is preparing teens for college/life by teaching that the world is not fair, that there really are not many second chances, and that they have to take their lumps when they mess up.

Two points in favor of the "Nut":
- You are correct that more education does not equal a better instructor.
- You posted accurate salaries
- You make some valid points about where we need to focus attention: learning

Here are some counter-arguments for other areas:

- While more education does not equate to improved learning in the classroom, it does enhance the chances that the educator is introduced, or reintroduced, to methodology that makes an impact on learning. While this is still no guarantee of a direct impact on learning, it should be considered.

- The salaries you post are without the experience/quality of the people in that position. People may feel that person "x" is making too much money, but if he/she is twenty years into the profession, this could account for the amount being made. Please do not argue that, "Well, length should not be a factor," as it is well known that in corporate contracts for management there are clauses for bonuses based upon longevity. The same in entertainment and in sports. Thus, principal X on said list could be a 25 year veteran with high qualifications and being underpaid on the open market.

- The "dummy-proof" curriculum argument (manual to teach) is a poor argument. Here is why: The manuals are completely silent on many of the intangibles of instructional practice. Manuals cannot produce proper pacing, rarely value difference in presentation, present little in the way of integrated technology and often lack much of the think-based instruction that will lead to higher scores on assessments such as the TIMMS or PISA.

- People who argue that many teachers have months off need to look much more closely at total hours worked across the year (which is a lot closer to many other professions when you factor in total working minutes, as opposed to total number of days of work) AND younger teachers are more likely to be working multiple jobs, including jobs in the summer.

- Teacher may not be working in a "war zone" in FCPS, but there are lots of incidences of poor behavior and even dangerous work. Teacher, administrators and aides working with difficult populations do not get hazard pay.

And now, some economic points:

- Education still is one of the best investments we make as a country. It is a leading factor in reduced crime rate and personal wealth over time. Here in our area the crime rate is low (as you mentioned in your argument that teachers are not working in war zone), which has connections to the educated population.

- FCPS's school system is a large money maker in terms of attracting new businesses to the area. The relative value of keeping large, high profile companies such as Apple, Google, Northrop Grumman and more in the area carries a large wealth factor for every worker in the region.

-FCPS's high salaries and large administrative staff is a relative bargain compared to other places, even though we have a higher level of income in Fairfax County to support the system. How is it that the school system runs efficiently in comparison to others and people continue to denigrate it as wasteful?

-FCPS continues to attract high profile people moving into the community. These people bring personal wealth and prestige to the area. Ask several retired military folks why they came back to this area and one large factor is the quality of the schools.

-FCPS produces a constant stream of positive news that entices people to know more about our area and attracts said investments, corporations and people. Check the headlines. Do you think that having so many schools listed in Newsweek and US News & World Report is doing nothing for the area?

In all, as a business guy, I would say that the TCO for the school system is probably lower that most any area in the country and possibly in other countries, and the total opportunity cost for us is probably pretty low.

Your Questions Answered, Wing-nut's Fail, I don't know why you are wasting your breath on this thread, but thank you for your eloquent, thoughtful, and well-reasoned arguments. Why am I not surprised WingNut has abandoned this thread now that all the trollish fun is gone?

For those of you who are complaining about teachers' unions... you DO realize Virginia hasn't had collective bargaining for teachers in decades, right? That all public workers in VA lost the right to collective bargaining in 1977? Our "unions" are actually just professional associations; they offer liability insurance, discounts to health clubs, lobby the state legislature, etc., but have no real teeth. I'm not complaining about that -- in fact, I think teachers' unions are doing more harm than good -- I'm just sick of VA residents complaining about the big powerful unions when nothing could be further from the truth.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/local-opinions/2011/03/no_union_rights_virginians_are.html

http://www.veanea.org/home/index.html

Hey I forgot about this thread, I thought my work was done.

I think I suggested some points that are pretty cogent-

1) FCPS have an advantage from the start in dealing with students who are for the majority better pre-schooled and from more stable and educated homes.

2) There is a "point of diminsihing returns" with post graduate education of teachers and with the amount of money spent on students

3) Many FCPS administrators are paid very handsomely. about 1400 in the system alone rake in over 90K

4) There exists an "expectation" by teacher of higher wages for completion of higher education, regardless of actual educational improvement.

5) Test scores and competency have not improved as dramatically as the amount of taxpayer money spent per pupil.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

I am not a teacher but I believe they work very hard. I truly respect the profession and would do anything to support a teacher.

I am confused about the pay complaints. Some teachers make a lot of money for a 9 month work year. There are many other professions with equal educational requirements that command lower salaries than teaching.

I have been very impressed with some teachers and very disappointed in others. I have seen plenty of bad homework sheets with wrong answers. Some teachers have a lot of degrees but don't like kids. Many teachers don't like active boys in their classroom - the young, inexperienced teachers turn into screamers.

The ES, MS and HS have done a better job of bridging their curriculums in recent years. There used to be huge gaps between school levels, especially in math and foreign language. I was also told that some ES are considered "language arts" schools and others are considered "math" schools. I find this unacceptable and told the principal that the math program at the "language arts" school was detrimentally slow.

This is common in elementary school but it gets better in high school. I only have boys. I always wanted a girl since I am a girly girl.

I have now changed my tune. Boys are awesome. HS girls are a nightmare from what my friends tell me.

Think about it.

Girls today must be pretty,skinny,sexy,not too sexy,be smart, have great hair, great skin, a nice rack, be thought of as hot but not be a slut ect..

Talk about girls getting the bum wrap. Yikes.

Hopefully FCPS has a list of overpaid staff who will be getting their termination notices in the next few weeks.

Is anyone else beginning to think that WingNut's hatred for teachers and the educational system stems from his very own learning disability?

Either that or perhaps these teachers he "dated" dumped his whiny ass and this is his so-called revenge.

None of the above.

Around `1400 FCPS employess raking in over $90K per year?

Did ya take math? A $10K cut from just this groups annual pay would be a pretty nice savings for the county.

Shared sacrifice apparently is not in some FCPS teachers vocab. They are just part of the Establishments self-serving machine.

Hi everyone,

I'd just like to add that student performance is based on the student not the teacher - If the student doesn't want to learn then the best teacher in the world won't help. Family situation affects student performance a lot in the United States.

A good teacher only helps the good students.

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Shared sacrifice apparently is not in some FCPS
> teachers vocab. They are just part of the
> Establishments self-serving machine.

Look at your list on p.1 of this thread. How many of those 1400 FCPS employees making over $90k a year are teachers? Not many.

Most have probably been promoted up from teaching to admin or some speciality supervisor role. The PhD;s and Masters are probably part of the justification for the high scale.

$90K for a short year?

Doesn't seem right to me.

idontlikebeingrightaboutshitlikethisbutiam



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 5/31/1967 05:57AM by WingNut.

Last edit at 11/30/2015 01:37PM Last edit at 5/14/2015 03:52PM Last edit at 1/28/2014 05:57AM Last edit at 11/29/2015 01:10PM Last edit at 3/14/2011 11:52PM Last edit at 7/20/2012 04:07AM
Last edit at 6/29/2013 11:18PM Last edit at 3/19/2011 01:02PM Last edit at 3/26/2012 09:07PM

WingNut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most have probably been promoted up from teaching
> to admin or some speciality supervisor role. The
> PhD;s and Masters are probably part of the
> justification for the high scale.
>
> $90K for a short year?
>
> Doesn't seem right to me.

If they are admin or some other supervisory role, then they are 12 month employees, not 10 month. A teacher only surpasses $90k with a MA+30 and 28 years.