"From the South County ChronicleReader's Viewpoint-South County Middle School Needed
Published: Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:54 AM EDT


Why should parents with children attending Hayfield, Lee, West Springfield, or Lake Braddock high schools care whether South County parents get a new middle school built? Because, along with the 19,000 Army jobs coming to Fort Belvoir main post and the Engineer Proving Grounds, the county predicts an additional 3,200 kids in the area. Given that South County Secondary School (SCSS) already has trailers, if the South County Middle School (SCMS) is not built in the next two to three years, these new students will be pushed into all of the surrounding schools. Thus, West Springfield, Hayfield, Lee and Lake Braddock will be overflowing.

Despite this impending tsunami of students, Fairfax County School's Capital Improvement Plan (CIP) has SCMS slated for 2017.

How did such poor planning occur? It is really no one's fault. The CIP was developed before the massive development occurred in Lorton and before the Army announced the relocation of 19,000 jobs to South County and central Springfield. At the time, SCMS was not really needed.

The purpose of this letter to the editor is not to cast blame, but to offer some solutions:


1. The current CIP is based on outdated demographic information. Any rational person will agree that the CIP needs to be re-ordered based on current information.

2. Use the Public/Private School Construction plan that the South County parents and I developed for the South County Secondary School to build the school quickly. It worked with SCSS, so it will work with SCMS.

3. Leverage adjacent county-owned land to build a school. There are vacant county-owned parcels in South County that could be sold to help pay the cost of SCMS. For example, the county is contemplating selling land it owns at the Vulcan quarry area off of Ox Road and using the money to pay for a park it has already purchased. While the Park Authority won't want to spend park money on a school project, the county Board of Supervisors needs to stop in-fighting amongst county departments and use the money to build a school.

4. Play hardball with the Army. They are moving 3,200 kids to our South County school system. Make them step up and deliver some funding for the school.

5. The school board needs to immediately budget the planning money for SCMS to keep it moving forward.

6. The county is using new authority granted by the state's Transportation Act of 2007 to charge fees on commercial offices for transportation improvements. But that bill also allows for impact fees on developers. However, the county is not implementing these new impact fees. While these new fees will not directly build a school, they will free up millions of dollars the county is currently using to pay for transportation bonds, which can then be used to pay for SCMS.

7. Voters need to elect school board members who support building SCMS now.

The purpose of government is to solve problems. Let's solve the problem of overcrowded schools and get SCMS built before the 3,200 new students arrive.

David B. Albo

Virginia Delegate"

Delegate Albo is missing some major points. All 19000 new jobs aren't going to involve people actually moving to Southern Fairfax County. The majority of the postions are already located in the the NoVA area and I can't imagine lots of parents willing to move from McLean to Lorton for an easier commute.

The 3200 potential new students will be spread amongst all 13 grades of FCPS not just secondary students. Say it is half (1600 new students). There are already more than 1600 empty seats between the schools that share boundaries with South County and that doesn't even include Mt. Vernon and its feeder middle school (which also borders the SCSS cachement area. The population is projected to decrease even further, creating more current vacancies

As a Fairfax taxpayer and parent, I do not want to see a middle school built until the numbers play out and the majority of the vacancies at the neighboring middle, secondary and high schools are filled.

Amen brother, amen! This is another sneaky attempt by the whiners in the SCSS area who don't want their kids at Hayfield or Lake Braddock where there is PLENTY of space. Wnat FCPS really needs is a system-wide boundary study which can be used to reset the priorities in the CIP. While the current CIP may not be perfect, there are a lot of schools which have patiently waited their turn for renovation and construction and the idea that people living in Crosspointe get to jump the line is simply wrong.

Anyone who purchased a home south of Silverbrook Road between 1995 and 2002 knew full well what their school options were and they should thank their lucky stars that FCPS found creative ways to get SCSS built quickly. Get over it and move on.

Del. Albo is not saying ALL (new) students brought in by BRAC will go to SCSS however, it is undeniable that many of them will. It is a popular area and one that is being built in vs. the "infill" in other parts of the county.

The fact that FC schools STILL cannot count students with any degree of accuracy is of greater concern than any part of this. Lake Braddock is on the verge of being overcrowded, despite FCPS saying it would hav a drop in students. Real numbers are HUNDREDS more now that the renovations are through.

Hayfield? Mason Neck SHOULD go there and be thankful for it. They did (beg) ask not to go to Mt. Vernon years ago, claiming that if they stayed at Hayfield, they would remain content. Apparently, not.

As far as others wanting to go to SCSS or the new SCMS/HS scenario, it was on the plans for decades to be there for them. It was due to creative financing (Thank you Pyramid Parents and Del. Albo for this). Hopefully they can do it again.

I recall in the mid-late 80's, Hayfield was the answer until "something was built" for the Silverbrook corridor. That was possible, once Lorton Prison closed. Land is available for the MS, just as it was for the HS (SCSS). It should be done and frankly, there is no plausable reason why it should not happen.

The third post's advocacy of "Creative financing" is exactly why I am concerned. Tiles were literally falling down from the Woodson ceilings because their renovations were pushed back by the premature building of South County. If falling debris had actually injured a student or staffer,there would have been hell to pay.

There are more than enough spaces between Hayfield and LB secondaries and the high schools of Lee, MV and WS (and their middle schools) to handle whatever additional 7th through 12th graders that BRAC may bring.

we just paid for renovations and an addition at Lake Braddock. hayfield is renovated. Mount Vernon is hundreds under. Dale wrote a letter to the feds and conveninetly forgot to include the Lake Braddock numbers in his letter - only included 4 schools. Also the NOOBS built about 500 extra seats at the new Glasgow and Falls Church HS is so empty it could hold a middle school.

Jackson is it's feeder middle school and they built an addition there. South County is surrounded by vacancies at renovated schools. The only one that's full is west Springfiled and it's not renovated.

My guess is other board members like Stu Gibson and Strauss sold their votes for this on pork like Langley -

I don't want to vote for anyone that will give them the new school.

Note they cancelled half the boundary process last fall for south cty but sent some east to hayfield.

How will these dolts ever get more money from Richmond when they do stuff like this?

ps-

I would not have minded a bigger south county secondary school but the current board built big ticket items out of bricks and mortar instead in other places: lake braddock addition, jackson addition, langley addition, part of the westfield addition, too big glasgow.

Now they're stuck and all should go except possibly Hunt. The bond referendum should not pass since a large part of it is porky -- what exactly is the scope of work on each job?

If you are in the Springfield District, do NOT vote for Liz Bradsher. She is the driving force for this irresponsible spending plan. Empty seats need to be filled in surrounding schools to see if another middleschool is truly needed.

the only person who I think has the nerve to stand up to her might be Arakelian -

gibson caved in last year so we all know what he expects people in Hunter Mill to pay for- the soco middle school. Where was his voice?

none of that school South Cty Secondary was free- I think there were revenue bonds. They act like it was a big fat proffer - No way. Bradsher would take $ from schools with leaking roofs to get this thing.

These people should become a special tax district and pay for it themselves.

Hold up. South County SECONDARY school is jsut that. A secondary school. In Fairfax County, that means that it is both a middle school and a high school in the same building. They dont need a new MS becuase they already have one.

Send the kids to Falls Church or Mt Vernon. Sure those schools suck, but hey, its cheap. And the government is poor.

And EVERY SINGLE western boundary needs to be moved east. All the schools in the west and center are at capacity/overcrowded. (except J-Mad?) Send them east.

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> And EVERY SINGLE western boundary needs to be
> moved east. All the schools in the west and center
> are at capacity/overcrowded. (except J-Mad?) Send
> them east.

__________________________

While there is probably a good argument there, it would overcrowd the SCSS area further, making MORE of a case for the new Middle School

SCSS was never intended to be a Secondary School, only a HS.

Out west, their HS opened as a SS but in a year or two, went to a HS after the Middle school was built. Why has South County had to wait?

CT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The third post's advocacy of "Creative financing"
> is exactly why I am concerned. Tiles were
> literally falling down from the Woodson ceilings
> because their renovations were pushed back by the
> premature building of South County. If falling
> debris had actually injured a student or
> staffer,there would have been hell to pay.
>
> There are more than enough spaces between Hayfield
> and LB secondaries and the high schools of Lee, MV
> and WS (and their middle schools) to handle
> whatever additional 7th through 12th graders that
> BRAC may bring.

___________________________________________________________

LB does not and at the rate more families move into the LB area, there will not be room, period.

Hayfield DOES have room, but that means moving Mason Neck BACK to there - won't happen, I am afraid.

BRAC is a crap shoot where it lands, who knows.


If you have facts, present them -

It is absurd to assume all children generated due to BRAC will live in Lorton.

Lake Braddock has space but there is a distortion from the middle school GT center. Just be glad the whole pie isn't reworked.

Add up all these schools and there are more than 660 middle school and 1307 high school seats open as of september 2007.
whitman/mount vernon
hayfield/hayfield
key/lee
south county/south county
twain/edison
irving/west springfield
lake braddock/lake braddock
sandburg/west potomac

The Barrington and North Crosspointe folks should be attending Lake Braddock. It would alleviate the overcrowding at South County and use some of the unoccupied seats at LB.

I want to know why Tom Davis and Albo are involved in this. Don't they have enough to worry about in their respective positions at the federal and state levels? They are overstepping their bounds.

No middle school is needed!

The Fairfax Station area should be sent to Lake Braddock, it may be a little uncomfortable for a while but the FCPS predicts the entire area will be under capacity. Lake Braddock is a great school and South County is at the bottom. Send all of Fairfax Station to Lake Braddock now! Mason Neck should return to Hayfield or go to Mt. Vernon. A county wide boundary study is needed! Why should the tax payers pay for another school, we have the capacity at surrounding schools, USE IT!!!!

Well even if you don't live in Southern Fairfax but you ARE concerned about this potential misguided use of funds, complain to all the school board members and because they are getting involved, even your state and federal reps.

I just read the 2008-2012 D+FCPS CIP published last November. This is updated annually so a new one should be out any time. This CIP has current and projected enrollment for every school. There are enough seats in the surrounding schools to cover any overcrowding from South County.

I live in the Laurel Hill area of Lorton and agree with those who are against a South County Middle School. The numbers do not justify it and my 8th grade daugher thrives at the secondary school and sees no educational benefit to a middle school.

just saw the phrase "pandering to the mob" on another topic. That is what the pols are doing here. Also Gerry Connelly was quoted using the term legacy for himself and the whole Lorton to South County transformation.

What school board candidates will not bend and then build??

resource allocation,
The schools get nearly all of their funding from Gerry Connolly. Since the school board is nearly all democrats and so is the board of supervisors, everyone is very happy. The board of supervisors will always come up with the money to support their fellow democrats on the school board.

Watch Connolly and the board of supervisors raise our taxes next year to give the schools even more money they can waste.

If you care about the money being wasted, vote for republicans for the school board and the board of supervisors.

BTW, all facilities funding comes from the school bonds we vote for each November. The school board knows that's a bottomless pit of all the funds they want, school bonds ALWAYS pass, by wide margins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2007 01:51AM by Neen.

Luther Jackson added an addition that resulted in 300 empty seats. What the heck? These people are clueless! Imagine ANY business that operated this way!

Liz Bradsher gave $300 to Stu Gibson's campaign. What does that tell you? We all know how Stu will vote, the same way he voted in the past, for more schools in South County.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Luther Jackson added an addition that resulted in
> 300 empty seats. What the heck? These people are
> clueless! Imagine ANY business that operated this
> way!
>
> Liz Bradsher gave $300 to Stu Gibson's campaign.
> What does that tell you? We all know how Stu will
> vote, the same way he voted in the past, for more
> schools in South County.

please provide a link

Lake Braddock's population is projected to go down now and into the next five years. Hayfield does have space now but it will be filling up as Brac moves more in the area. South County over crowding can be alleviated by Lake Braddock. Hayfield did its part and is on course for a stable, diverse well utilized school after years of overcrowding, and wild swings of population and the problems that causes with discipline and programs in the school. Hayfield has been put through the ringers lost some of the best teachers, and in general been torn apart by the seemingly never ending boundary studies. Lake Braddock and Bradsheer pushed to return Hayfield on the brink of overcrowding again and were able to delay the obvious solution of using Lake Braddock to relieve the crowding and expense of trailers at South County. If they cannot come up with a tax free, no cost middle school then it is time for Lake Braddock to step up and take in more of Fairfax Station.

Hayfield needs more students, they should take back the Mason Neck area along with the rest of rt. 1. This will help South County. No middle school is needed, use Hayfield and Mt.Vernon now.

I agree that existing space should be used but I don't see why Hayfield and MV have to shoulder all the overflow. Use Lake Braddock's empty seats. They have a beautifully renovated school with lots of extra space to accomodate some of the students who live in the northwest corner of the current SCSS boundaries.

LB lover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree that existing space should be used but I
> don't see why Hayfield and MV have to shoulder all
> the overflow. Use Lake Braddock's empty seats.
> They have a beautifully renovated school with lots
> of extra space to accomodate some of the students
> who live in the northwest corner of the current
> SCSS boundaries.

There are several large developements in that point on the left barbell of Silverbrook. Since we all are now well aware of the split feeders at many elementary schools in the West County boundary process I am even more appalled at the actions the school board engaged in last year. Franklin Farm and Crosspointe are in the same county. Plus there is a middle school gt center at Lake Braddock. Why there? Move it elsewhere ...

"Hayfield needs more students, they should take back the Mason Neck area along with the rest of rt. 1. This will help South County. No middle school is needed, use Hayfield and Mt.Vernon now."


Hayfield will be growing and they have taken back some of the area that left when South County opened. Frankly all of Lorton should be going to the high school located in Lorton including Mason Neck. Mount Vernon would be a haul in rush hour traffic for kids to be bussed from the South County area. If anything Hayfield should be left alone to relieve possible future overcrowding in nearby Alexandria Schools such as Edison,Lee and West Potomac. Leave Hayfield alone, we have had enough of South County and their parents looking down their noses at our community school. They all wanted to go to a new school and they all got it. Now that its crowded they want to disrupt Hayfield again. I say let them stay crowded or go to LBSS.

I might also add that the CIP numbers your looking at do not reflect the latest boundary change between South County and Hayfield. When the next CIP comes out next month you will see that Hayfield will have more population this year and into the out years due to the movement back of most of the Lorton Station area to Hayfield. Lake Braddock was included in the last boundary meeting and they were allowed to remain undercapacity in the out years in order for the South County community to find a way to build a middle school with out tax payer dollars. If a free school does not come about it will be time to adjust the boundary withe Lake Braddock. It is my understanding that Hayfield will not be included in any further boundary changes.

Hayfield, Mt. Vernon & Lake Braddock should be used when the next boundary study takes place. Move students from South County to Lake Braddock, but the school board should also use Mt. Vernon. Hayfield students should be shifted to Mt. Vernon, this school has been renovated and has more room than South Lakes. Talk about spending tax $$$$$$ and the school just sitting empty, what a joke. BRAC will not impact any school, so that argument is BULL SHIT. Mason Neck should go back to Hayfield, they have been at Hayfield for years. This would help out Hayfield a lot. A boundary study should take place for the entire Fairfax area.

You do not know what your talking about and obviously do not know the area in the South of the County. Tell me who would you shift from Hayfield to Mt. Vernon? Sure Mason Neck was at Hayfield but the number of school kids on the Neck is insignificant. Mason Neck did not cause the overcrowding at South County. We all know Mount Vernon is not utilized, but the problem is not the High School age kids it is the middle school The feeder middle school to Mt. Vernon is beyond capacity. What would you do send the Neck middle school kids to Hayfield or South County then pull them out to send them to Mount Vernon for High School? Please. The problem with Mt. Vernon is that it is not close to the Neck or the Hayfield area and to send kids there puts them on a bus trip miles away in rush hour traffic. If anything West Potomac could lose some kids and a shift be done that way then maybe a shift from Edison or Hayfield be done to West Potomac. Look at West Potomac boundaries! They have kids right next to Mount Vernon going north to West Potomac. I wonder if it has to do with the money in that area near Mount Vernon Plantation. And might I ask how does Mason Neck help Hayfield alot? If you think BRAC will have no impact on area schools then any argument you have just makes no common sense. 19,000 jobs coming, you dont think possibly some of those jobs will not bring families that want to be close to where they work?

It’s okay for the Fairfax Station area to endure a long bus ride to Lake Braddock, but when talk of moving Hayfield or Mason Neck to other schools, oh boy that is way too difficult for them. Fairfax Station would be better off at Lake Braddock, South County is a the bottom when it comes to test scores. Lake Braddock is a great school, the only problem the school board will over crowd that school. Hayfield lost too many students when the South County boundary was set up, it hurt Hayfield. They need students. Look at Hayfields test scores, not too good. Mount Vernon has empty seats. I don’t want any more of my money put into building or renovating schools when the school board will not use schools. I read BRAC will not impact schools at all. A county wide boundary change is need for all of Fairfax County, not just one or two schools.

dude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ...We all know Mount
> Vernon is not utilized, but the problem is not the
> High School age kids it is the middle school ...

Whitman is not in it's attendance area. The CIP capacity numbers are:

Whitman 1000 [x 2=2000 ]> had 6 trailers on last years CIP when under capcity
Mount Vernon 2550
Sandburg 1400 [x2=2800]>has a Gt center including kids from Whitman
West Potomac 2200

Could boundaries be changed? Would students currently being transported to Sandburg be walkers to Whitman? If so how many busloads? Middle and high schools should have a 1:2 capacity ratio. If parents choose a K-8 private school then so be it. Transporting students from Mason neck anywhere other than South County is ridiculous yet I remember hearing anti Lake Braddock people using the fact that those people live in a remote area as a reason to ship them elsewhere. Only one bus for middle and high school should cruise that portion of the Gunston attendance area - that includes the middle school GTc. Why not have each secondary school serve it's own middle school GT population? They certainly have on-site access to academics.

Many Fairfax Station residents already attend Lake Braddock. If you look at a FCPS map, you would notice that the Lake Braddock boundaries extend much further south than the Silverbrook area. Kids who live in the Roseland development (right across the street from Crosspointe) are currently in the LB cachement area. Kids who live on Hampton Road (miles south of the North Silverbrook side of SC cachement area) attend Lake Braddock. Those kids have a longer busride than would any Barrington or North Crosspointe kid.

Look a County wide boundary study is needed I agree but it aint going to happen so get over it. Again I ask which Hayfield area would you bus to Mount Vernon? I thought you said Hayfield needs students you want to ship them out? Hayfield has gone through multiple boundary studies already because the School Board screwed it up and gave into everyone that couldn't wait to get out of Hayfield. Well good ridens, Hayfield is fine now. We have a steady population finally and are on course to grow an increase population over the next several years at a healthy rate. The ration of middle school to high school is ideal just let us be so we can work on creating a better community school without the upheaval of wildly flucuating numbers. Besides the folks you want to put back in Hayfield do not want to be here.

Dude,

You are right, the Mason Neck-Lorton area should be sent back to Hayfield, but they do not want to go. Maybe Hayfield is better off without them. But the entire Fairfax area needs a boundary change. I do not want to pay for any middle school(S) or school addition(S) when room is available at all schools. This has gotten way out of control. Mt. Vernon is under capacity, Hayfield is under capacity, South Lakes is under capacity and so on. Do you want to pay for more schools when we have capacity at all these schools? I don’t know what area of Hayfield would go to Mt. Vernon, but I’m sure the school board could figure it out. They need to look at all schools and readjust all the school boundaries.

Again I agree that the entire county should be looked at a boundaries redrawn. Unfortunately that is not going to happen. We asked all our board members involved with the schools in this area why they don't do an area wide boundary study and get it all done once and for all and were told that their is no political will to make something like that happen. Again I question what the use of this board is when it comes to boundary changes. Maybe this is a decision that should be taken away from the board, however I think the recommendation to do a change normally comes from the staff andor school supervisor. In any case, Hayfield has gone through this twice now and I know what South Lakes kids and parents are going through. They didnt ask for this but if the county Staff and Board feel that school resources are better used by changing the boundaries then I understand that. In the case with Hayfield students have been returned in the second go round of boundary studies. Yes there is capacity in the building but in mostly the High School side. We dont want to see a situation were students are sent for Middle school then sent back to another High school. The numbers will show a steady growth path for Hayfield now that the boundary was changed last year. Now it is Lake Braddocks turn to step up and get students. They also have capacity in the out years that could absorb the overcrowding at South County and then No a middle school would not have to be built early.

Dude-
Lake Braddock has been in three studies in a row. We can't take all the growth especially since we haven't been going down as predicted. Hayfield will ultimately be involved because 600 kids aren't going to Lake Braddock.

I didnt say it should be done in one all fell swoop. Besides these changes are incremental and grandfathered in. LBSS is projected to be losing numbers each of the next five years that is the fact. Hayfield numbers were flat before the last change and now will be going up with the last boundary change. If they didn't put more into Hayfield last time around why do you think they will go back and add more the next time around. Oh I know why, because you have Liz pushing to kick Lorton out of South County sending Hayfield back on the path of an overcrowded school again. If there is another study Hayfield should and I have word that it will not be involved.

Dude,
A fact check for you is that LBSS hasn't lost the kids they have been projected to lose for the last 2 years. In fact they are way over the projection. That is the fact jack.

If South County SS is in such a high income area, then why are the scores so low?? This doesn't make sense. Just drving past those neighborhoods, it looks solidly upper middle class. No aprtments, immigrants, gangs, etc. Are those Fairfax Station kids just dumb or are there bad teachers there?

LBSS is currently over 300 seats undercapacity.

I guess we will see this reflected in the new CIP when it comes out. Maybe the projections are being skewed by the GT Center

CIP numbers are already on FCPS website for this year.

The new CIP should be out next month as I do believe it is done annually. The current CIP reflects the numbers for last year not this years enrollments. I know it reflects last year because it shows Hayfield as a Cluster five school. Hayfield was moved to Cluster Four this year and this year is the first year Hayfield and South County feels the effects of the boundary change decision from last winter not reflected in the current CIP.

Dude-
Here are this years numbers. You are correct about CIP, but this year's numbers are here already.
http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/membership/index.html

Anonymous,
Thanks I did not realize the current enrollments were out. Did a little comparison and the boundary change has of course effected Hayfield and SCSS. Hayfield Middle school this year is 110 below capacity now which is 164 over the projections before the boundary change last year. That I believe is more then expected with the boundary changed. The High school side is 542 under capacity just 84 over the projections before the boundary changed last year. That would be expected as the change will effect the high school grades as the middle schoolers work the way up. Seems to me Hayfield is on track to be at capacity in the outyears so no change should happen to Hayfield lest it goes back to being over capacity.

Lake Braddock middle school projections are right on in fact 3 less then then projected for this year. The GT programs puts the middles school over capacity and I wonder how many of the GT kids continue on to LB High. For whoever said the projections for LBSS is off they are correct. It is off by 66 on the high school side and -3 on the middle school side for a net of 63 over for the building. The projections have the High school numbers dropping off by a hugh amount starting with next year and on into 2012. Maybe the projections for LBSS are off a bit but the trend is still there while the trend for Hayfield is going the other way. We got Hayfield right, now it is time to set LBSS right as well.

Dude,
Check the CIP in the year before last as well for what they thought would happen for this year. The trend is not there yet as your own words show. Also how many in LBSS middle school now?

How many are in LBSS now?

What did CIP think 2 years ago would be there?

Who cares what happened two years ago. If they are not projecting right it should be changed, the projections were off for Hayfield as well but you have to go by something. The LB middle school projections are 3 more then actual numbers which means the trend for the High school will be down as the smaller numbers from the middle school move to the high school. Look at the feeder elementary schools, those are down as well for LBSS so it is logical to project the trend as going down at LBSS. The boundaries must be set to account for room in the outyears not this year or next or the previous two year. Its called "Planning"

Lets do this. Lets see what the projections are when the new CIP comes out next month. If the projections for LBSS show an increase in population in 2013 then I will agree that a new middle school is needed.

Dude-
since when is 3 kids in a 4000 person school in one year a trend?

your own words make no sense.

dude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess we will see this reflected in the new CIP
> when it comes out. Maybe the projections are
> being skewed by the GT Center

How many western barbell Silverbrookers are at the Lake Braddock middle school GT center? That middle school has a maximum capacity of 1350. If there were 1250 Lake Braddock students with current GT identification rates there would be almost 100 base students per grade level. Each secondary school should have an in-house GTC for middle school. Same for co-located sites like Hughes and South Lakes. Our esteemed school board members ignored the existence of this GTCenter last year. Perhaps too many at-large members lived in the general area. [Remember Tessie Wilson replaced Moon as a Magisterial District member and I think Hunt was from FX Station. Raney and Hone live in Providnce.]

I wonder how many Fairfax Station families would like to go to Lake Braddock now, South County has poor test scores - it is not a great school. Lake Braddock is in the top 10 high schools in Fairfax County. Maybe the middle school will not be built after all.

Let me explain.
The CIP projects enrollments for planning and budgeting purpose. LB Middle school had a projection last year that was three students higher then the actual enrollment this year at the middle school level. I would say that projection was accurate wouldn't you? The projections going out to 2012 has the enrollments going down. If the projection is accurate then that could be considered a downward trend in population.

Dude-
Once again go back 2 years and see what was projected for 2007 and see if it happened...answer your own question of "if the projection was accurate". Break it out by middle and high school

I think a lot of people would like to come here "if the projections are accurate"

South County will be great once the riffraff who are causing the overcrowding problems and skewing our test scores are sent back to Hayfield and MV.

LBSS
Tell me what is the projection for the middle school and High school for this year and tell me how far off they were. I count a total of 63. Not bad. 2008 projections are lower as is 2009, 2010,2011,2012 and soon I am sure it will be for 2013.

Me2
The Riffraff will do much better at Lake Braddock since that school is much closer to Barrington then is Hayfield or Mount Vernon.

Everyone here seems to be ignoring the obvious-MONEY. FCPS has a $2 billion dollar annual budget and guess what??

They are projecting a $100 million dollar reduction next year. That is correct-REDUCTION. We know the unions won't be getting less for their people so where the H@*L do you think this money is coming from?

Why isn't anyone asking why The School Board and Jack Dale spent $60 million on a fancy new office building 2 years ago at the top of the market?

You people are missing the bigger issue here- Mismanagement within FCPS.

Lee Parent,
We are right on point and this is why the county must do its best planning and utilize the resources they have at newly renovated Lake Braddock to relieve South County rather then spending more on a middle school that is not needed now and probably not needed in 2017 when it is planned on the CIP

Dude,
You have my word Hayfield will be involved in a boundary study within the next 7 years.

Anonymous,
In seven years they the will have to adjust the boundary to send more kids to the new South County Middle School schedule for 2017.

If you look at the enrollments and capacities of LB and SC, the overapacity of SC is almost an exact even match to the number of empty seats at Lake Braddock.

VH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you look at the enrollments and capacities of
> LB and SC, the overapacity of SC is almost an
> exact even match to the number of empty seats at
> Lake Braddock.


_______________________________________________________

Show me a source for your numbers please.


The reality is, LB is over 400 students BEYOND the projeced (by FCPS) numbers for this year and in older neighborhoods such as those surrounding LBSS, as people move out, younger families move in. That has been shown all over that area and others like it.

Now that isn't to say the SCSS area isn't still growing. I still recall when at a hearing, the Laurel Hill area was quoted as adding only 70 students a year into the mix. Baloney!

LB is at capacity and they do not want more. They said it themselves.

There are two soloutions:

1. Build the MIDDLE SCHOOL in South County - the land is there...

2. Shift students towards the east - this means some will have to go to Mount Vernon.


In my opinion, the Middle School option is the only option, as I believe the spreading of students added by BRAC will add enough students to schools around this immediate area to overcrowd them all if the Middle School is not built.

A few hundred kids here and a few hundred there will add up quickly - and we already know how unwilling WSHS is, to adding ANY more students so LB would be the closest option then, should that area see higher enrollment numbers.

http://www.fcps.edu/fts/cip2008-2012cd/pdf/lake_braddock_ms.pdf
http://www.fcps.edu/fts/cip2008-2012cd/pdf/lake_braddock_hs.pdf
http://www.fcps.edu/fts/cip2008-2012cd/pdf/south_county_hs.pdf
http://www.fcps.edu/fts/cip2008-2012cd/pdf/south_county_ms.pdf
http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/membership/membership_2007_2008/september/web/cluster_5/monthly_membership_by_cluster_5.pdf
http://www.fcps.edu/Reporting/membership/membership_2007_2008/september/web/cluster_6/monthly_membership_by_cluster_6.pdf


2007 Projected # /Actual # /Capacity /Over or Under
LBMS 1320/ 1317/ 1350/ 33 Under
LBHS 2444/ 2510/ 2735/ 225 Under
SCMS 1046/ 885/ 800/ 85 Over
SCHS 2184/ 2044/ 1700/ 374 Over

Note that the projected numbers from last year’s CIP were before the 06/07 boundary change.

The total projection for LBSS was 3764. The actual numbers were 3885. The capacity is 4010. Lake Braddock can easily handle more students.

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>... >
> A few hundred kids here and a few hundred there
> will add up quickly - and we already know how
> unwilling WSHS is, to adding ANY more students so
> LB would be the closest option then, should that
> area see higher enrollment numbers.

Why should we pay property taxes to support new capacity after already being charged for additional new or renovated capacity? If I'm making mortgage payments on one primary residence in the same area I am not going to duplicate my costs.

Read the papers on the West County boundary process. Read about the budget. The non-move for this year impacts the school system operationally and financially. If South County wants that school it should either be a City or do a special tax district. Shift the location of non-Lake Braddock GT students and there is room at the school. You expect this entire county to pay to bus Mason Neck past South County to Hayfield or Mount Vernon? WSHS is full and had a concise boundary.

Reality, apparently you can't handle reality. LBSS projections has that school losing students for the next 6 years. Actual enrollment shows decrease population in the past 6 years. I predict the new CIP will show a decreased projection for 2013. Don't build a middle school when some from South County can be shifted to Lake Braddock.

LBSS and SCSS were able to get the county to do a "non move" last year to LBSS. Now we Tax payers continue to pay for trailers at SCSS while LBSS has room.

Do you know how much extra it cost the County for Mobile class trailers? The county is trying to be responsible but is confronted by selfish residents like Liz Bradsheer who doesnt care what it cost as long as they get what they want.

dude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reality, apparently you can't handle reality.
> LBSS projections has that school losing students
> for the next 6 years. Actual enrollment shows
> decrease population in the past 6 years. I
> predict the new CIP will show a decreased
> projection for 2013. Don't build a middle school
> when some from South County can be shifted to Lake
> Braddock.

____________________________________________________________

Reality is that the numbers we were all preached on a few years ago, showed LBSS going down in count.

Why did they GO UP by ~ 400 ???

maybe FCPS needs to refurbish their crystal ball

Taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The county is trying to be
> responsible but is confronted by selfish residents
> like Liz Bradsheer who doesnt care what it cost as
> long as they get what they want.


___________________________________________________

Ahhh, now it comes out - this is a Liz Bradsher - bashing thread.

Whatever, we are done here.

ffxn8v

LBSS projection for 2007 on the CIP 1320 for Middle School, 2444 for High School

Actual numbers 1317 for Middle School, 2,510 for High School

Projections for total building is off by 63. I call that pretty good projection. That is the reality for the latest data. You can go back in time all you want and complain about projection being off but the most recent is pretty darn close and the projections have it continued to drop.

As for Liz I am ashamed that a fellow republican is so finacially liberal with tax payer money when the money has already been spent to house the number of students in this county. I see she bought your vote along with the rest of the South County area by promissing a brand new middle school. Well the rest of us are not getting that chicken in our pot.

ffxn8v Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Taxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> The county is trying to be
> > responsible but is confronted by selfish
> residents
> > like Liz Bradsheer who doesnt care what it cost
> as
> > long as they get what they want.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> _
>
> Ahhh, now it comes out - this is a Liz Bradsher -
> bashing thread.
>
> Whatever, we are done here.

I am the original taxpayer [no cap on the t] and did not write the Bradsher post. However, when you look at Franklin Farm and Crosspoint/ Barrington et al one can see very different approaches. I will respond on what I found out about trailer cost. One of the questions under school board followup for the year 2006-07 was by Mr. Gibson and the response on another issue from staff included costs of trailers [25 used and relocated -50,000 new]. That is under boarddocs.

Also that response included explanation on core facility v modular.

Also, the split schedule at SCSS means that regular busses can no longer be shared by middle and high school students.

taxpayer,

Please explain when you say different approaches are used when it comes to Franklin Farms vs. Crosspointe.

I am not up on the Franklin Farms point of view of that redistricting.

Apparently ffxn can't stand to debate when confronted with the facts. This person is a South County parent who will not be happy until he/she forces Lorton residents out of a Lorton School so they can have a lilly white country club. How much more is the county going to spend on this area? They changed the name, got a golf course, art center, new school, hhmmm. what else am I missing?

When did South County become a Lorton only school? If that is so, Lake Braddock should only be for Burke.

Mason Neck should return to Hayfield, the should never have been placed into South County to begin with. The first boundary study had them at Hayfield, and some how they got Dan Stork to make a deal to get them into South County. Mason Neck kicked out the Lorton residents that live across the street from South County and sent them to Hayfield. Lake Braddock will be able to take on more students, Fairfax Station or Newington Forest. That will be settled at the next boundary study. Lake Braddock is a better school than South County, and I don’t see why the Fairfax Station residents don’t want to go. South County will never be a good school, the school board messed thing up with all the boundary studies.

About 10-15 kids per grade from Mason Neck attend South County. Mason Neck is actually a Lorton address as is Lorton Station and Lorton proper. Perhaps SC should have been named Lorton High School and then all the Silverbrookers would be beating the doors down to attend Lake Braddock.

Lake Braddock is HUGH, built at a time when they thought bigger was better. It is too big just for Burke and so this is why it draws also from Fairfax Station. I never said SCSS should be only for Lorton, it is just a shame that the Lorton Community is not united at the school built in Lorton. Lorton has historically lived with the stigma of the Prison and now that the area is finally coming into its own I fear that much of "Old" lorton is being push out. Why does Mason Neck not have as much right to go to South County as Crosspointe. The neck has a handful of kids and hardly causes any crowding. It is my position that folks in Barrington and Crosspointe kicked out the folks in Lorton Station back to Hayfield. Dont forget there was a boundary option to split part of Silverbrook ES area to Lake Braddock. Bradsher et all raised holy hell to keep that option from even being discussed.

Dude-
Your position, like most of what you have posted is wrong and not backed by facts

I don't know what HUGH is, but Lake Braddock is huge. So is Hayfield

And because LB is so large, they can easily absorb the overcapacity caused by Barrington.

dude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lake Braddock is HUGH, built at a time when they
> thought bigger was better. It is too big just for
> Burke and so this is why it draws also from
> Fairfax Station. I never said SCSS should be only
> for Lorton, it is just a shame that the Lorton
> Community is not united at the school built in
> Lorton. Lorton has historically lived with the
> stigma of the Prison and now that the area is
> finally coming into its own I fear that much of
> "Old" lorton is being push out. Why does Mason
> Neck not have as much right to go to South County
> as Crosspointe. The neck has a handful of kids
> and hardly causes any crowding. It is my position
> that folks in Barrington and Crosspointe kicked
> out the folks in Lorton Station back to Hayfield.
> Dont forget there was a boundary option to split
> part of Silverbrook ES area to Lake Braddock.
> Bradsher et all raised holy hell to keep that
> option from even being discussed.

Thanks for the spell check, you get my drift.
Do tell, which position is not backed by facts.

By the way the capacity at Hayfield is about 1,000 students less then LBSS

dude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> taxpayer,
>
> Please explain when you say different approaches
> are used when it comes to Franklin Farms vs.
> Crosspointe.
>
> I am not up on the Franklin Farms point of view of
> that redistricting.

Franklin Farms is a large community in western FXC and an example of how large communities go to more than one school at all levels. I think some areas [ie entire western Silverbrook]at SCSS refused to have any sort of community split despite the number of households.

So why does South County have such low scores???? Like I said, it's a pretty well off area I guess the low scores prove that evn though a school draws from a high economic-socio population, it doesn't mean high scores, etc. I bet there are gangs there too even in the country club set.

Anything east of I-95 lowered our SAT score average. Next August (when the College Board releases the scores) SC should see a big jump in the student SAT scores since many of the poor performers were redistricted out of SC.

Ivy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anything east of I-95 lowered our SAT score
> average. Next August (when the College Board
> releases the scores) SC should see a big jump in
> the student SAT scores since many of the poor
> performers were redistricted out of SC.



Ivy or anyone,
What grade do students normally take the SAT?

Late Winter/Spring of 11th and Fall of 12th.

College Board released the class of 2007 scores in August of 2007.

The jump will actually not happen in August,08 but in August,09 since all Stallion seniors were allowed to remain despite the boundary changes.

Ivy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Late Winter/Spring of 11th and Fall of 12th.
>
> College Board released the class of 2007 scores in
> August of 2007.
>
> The jump will actually not happen in August,08 but
> in August,09 since all Stallion seniors were
> allowed to remain despite the boundary changes.


Ivy,
I hate to dissappoint you but the boundary change next year will only effect 7,8,9,10th graders. Then by the 08/09 school year 7,8,9,10, and 11th graders of course by that time Silverbrook school area will have been split to feed LBSS.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dude Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > taxpayer,
> >
> > Please explain when you say different
> approaches
> > are used when it comes to Franklin Farms vs.
> > Crosspointe.
> >
> > I am not up on the Franklin Farms point of view
> of
> > that redistricting.
>
> Franklin Farms is a large community in western FXC
> and an example of how large communities go to more
> than one school at all levels. I think some areas
> at SCSS refused to have any sort of community
> split despite the number of households.


taxpayer,
The stupid thing is there is no one subdivision called "Silverbrook" like there is Franklin Farm. Silverbrook ES pulls from several neighborhoods along Silverbrook rd all the way down near SCSS. When the new Laurel Hill ES comes on line next fall Silverbrook ES will get back down to a normal size school with neighborhoods around the ES only feeding that school. They complained about not wanting to be split as if that doesn't alreaday happen all over the county. Two neighborhoods in adjacent to the LBSS boundary "Barrington" "South run oaks" could be split off relieving SCSS. Shoot those neighborhoods are further away from South County then are the communities in Lorton Station that were sent back to Hayfield. Besides kids further south and west already drive right by the areas to LBSS right now.

dude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Two neighborhoods in
> adjacent to the LBSS boundary "Barrington" "South
> run oaks" could be split off relieving SCSS...

I know - those 2 protrude into the Lake Braddock attendance area and are near South Run. They should be there now. Hopefully the West County process will have opened people's eyes as to what happened [or rather didn't happen ] in 2006-07. The shenanigans for the first process, then the WS, then the second were ridiculous. The at-large school board members were derelict in their duties.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dude Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ... Two neighborhoods in
> > adjacent to the LBSS boundary "Barrington"
> "South
> > run oaks" could be split off relieving SCSS...
>
> I know - those 2 protrude into the Lake Braddock
> attendance area and are near South Run. They
> should be there now. Hopefully the West County
> process will have opened people's eyes as to what
> happened in 2006-07. The shenanigans for the
> first process, then the WS, then the second were
> ridiculous. The at-large school board members were
> derelict in their duties.


It will be interesting to see what happens a year from now when they conduct the latest boundary study in conjunction with the opening of Laurel Hill ES. The published statement about waiting on using LBSS to relieve SCSS was to give the South County community an opportunity to come up with a "No Cost" middle school. I am sure LBSS and South County will come up with all kinds of ideas to block any move to LBSS and I am certain Hayfield will be the prime target. I am looking forward to the new CIP projections for all three schools in the out years of 2012 and 2013.

"Two neighborhoods in adjacent to the LBSS boundary "Barrington" "South run oaks" could be split off relieving SCSS."

Yes, but those two neighborhoods alone would not be enough to help reduce the number of students at South County. Maybe sending Newington Forest to Hayfield along with this split may help. LBSS will still be under capacity, and claim they cannot take any other neighborhoods if that happens. It is best to send the entire area SRO to Tripple Ridge to LBSS.

What will probably happen is Newington Forest will get kicked out and that is what LBSS really doesnt want and is the reason they refuse to believe any projections It is not because they don't want part of Silverbrook sent to Lake Braddock it is that they know that it would likely be Newington Forest sent over because those richer neighborhoods along Silverbrook Rd., including Liz Bradsher's neighborhood will get their way and stay at SCSS.

Again Hayfield is on track to grow so adding Newington Forest to Hayfield simply shifts the overcrowding in the out years from one school to another. Look I dont mind seeing Hayfield grow but it has already received students back in the last boundary study. Like they did for LBSS, they should wait to see how the numbers from this last move and any BRAC numbers will have on Hayfield. If Hayfield's projections leave them undercapacity in the out years then yes go ahead and look at that for additions but it would be better to look at schools closer to Hayfield that may need relief at that time before we look again to Lorton. It is simple folks, right now LBSS is projected to have room, Hayfield is filling up, how hard is it to figure this out. Its not!

All Silverbrookers who live west of Hooes, North of Silverbrook Road residents should get redistricted to LB. This would include Barrington, North Crosspointe, South Run Oaks, and Triple Ridge.

Dude,

You bring up a good point about LBSS. What are you thought on this - Wouldn’t it be better to send Newington Forest to LBSS and send more of the rt1 to South County? Sending Fairfax Station to LBSS would only make that school better. I have been reading the South Lakes blog and they are trying to balance that school by bringing in Oakton and other to their school. If the school board sends Fairfax Station to LBSS that would go against everything they are trying to accomplish at South Lakes, right? I see no need for a middle school or any addition at any school, use what we have.

Sending Newington Forest is cutting off the north central section of the current SC boundaries. Sending the North Silverbrook subdivision cuts off a section that juts into the Lake Braddock area making both boundaries smoother without gerrymandered areas.

,,,,,,,, Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dude,
>
> You bring up a good point about LBSS. What are you
> thought on this - Wouldn’t it be better to send
> Newington Forest to LBSS and send more of the rt1
> to South County? Sending Fairfax Station to LBSS
> would only make that school better. I have been
> reading the South Lakes blog and they are trying
> to balance that school by bringing in Oakton and
> other to their school. If the school board sends
> Fairfax Station to LBSS that would go against
> everything they are trying to accomplish at South
> Lakes, right? I see no need for a middle school or
> any addition at any school, use what we have.


I guess there are many ways to slice the pie. Bottom line is they do not need to build a MS when LBSS has room with more room coming.

At the first boundary study opening SCSS there were all kinds of different scenerios that could have impacted West Springfield, Lee. Everyone wanted to go to the new school but a choice had to be made. I remember one group of Lee parents from the Saratoga area wanting to be moved to Hayfield if they could not get into SCSS. Anyway, what ever happens they will not be moving anyone INTO SCSS thats for sure even if it did provide more balance to the demographic numbers. Now if they do move more folks into Hayfield most likely it would be from Lorton as I think it is clear that Newington forest would be just too far for them to move back to Hayfield. Then of course you have the same deal with demographics creating higher numbers for Hayfield which is already amoung the highest in the county and reducing that of SCSS.

on monday 12-10 is a school board work session on the budget with the board of supervisors.

check out today's Washington Post article on the FX budget. Somebody finally realized that debt service on bonds for FCPS is real money and each item should be analyzed!!!! Duh. How about the dirt removal at Langley as an operating budget or bonded item? How about the larger issue of it's construction project? What about that addition we are paying debt service on at Lake Braddock?

I think the new CIP report comes out next week. What will the Lake Braddock and Silverbrook folks say when the projections continue to show the population to decline at Lake Braddock.

Tick tock, one year left to come up with a "free" middle school in south county or utilize Lake Braddock.

Liz will get them their new middle school. It's what she was elected to do.

She is one school board supervisor that will be tied to budget cuts we all know are coming. Good luck with getting a new anything.

CIP for09-13 is out under new business at the 12-20-07 school board meeting.

Taxpayer,

Can you say exactly what to click on to find the new CIP? I looked on the board meeting link and couldn't find anything. When I used the FCPS search engine, all that came up were old CIPs.