HomeFairfax General ForumArrest/Ticket SearchWiki newPictures/VideosChatArticlesLinksAbout
Fairfax County General :  Fairfax Underground fairfax underground logo
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Pages: Previous123456AllNext
Current Page: 3 of 6
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: BOTTOM LINE ()
Date: October 19, 2011 10:13AM

GET OVER IT ALREADY PEOPLE OVER $11 Million dollars for less than 400, soon to be less than 300 students, to go to an elitist Elementary School IS NOT WORTH IT!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Go AWAY Liz ()
Date: October 19, 2011 10:22AM

Liz Bradsher -

Get a life and go AWAY. You are a has been who should have been a "was never".

You are a hate-filled toxic poisonous vapid IQ-less bitter nasty person.

Get a high-colonic and detox in some chemical containment field. The half-life of you vile insides is beyond any of our lifespans.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: October 19, 2011 11:44PM

BOTTOM LINE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GET OVER IT ALREADY PEOPLE OVER $11 Million
> dollars for less than 400, soon to be less than
> 300 students, to go to an elitist Elementary
> School IS NOT WORTH IT!

Get up to speed while I get over it. Have you been reading anything put forward by FCPS the last 2 1/2 years? If $9.5M was too much for say 350 students then why is $84M for 1,854 students acceptable? Let's see, that is $27,142 vs $45,307 per pupil for a high school renovation that would be funded through the 2011 Bond. Now I completely understand how we got here. Lack of mathematics education in our population. Clearly you have a figure in your mind that is acceptable, so why not state what a per student renovation that you believe is reasonable should cost in Fairfax County. If you believe a renovation of Clifton was more expensive on a per student basis than many others completed in the past or planned for the future I would say the 25+ member team in FCPS marketing has more than done their jobs selling to you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: herewegoagain ()
Date: October 20, 2011 12:17AM

Justataxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BOTTOM LINE Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > GET OVER IT ALREADY PEOPLE OVER $11 Million
> > dollars for less than 400, soon to be less than
> > 300 students, to go to an elitist Elementary
> > School IS NOT WORTH IT!
>
> Get up to speed while I get over it. Have you
> been reading anything put forward by FCPS the last
> 2 1/2 years? If $9.5M was too much for say 350
> students then why is $84M for 1,854 students
> acceptable? Let's see, that is $27,142 vs $45,307
> per pupil for a high school renovation that would
> be funded through the 2011 Bond. Now I completely
> understand how we got here. Lack of mathematics
> education in our population. Clearly you have a
> figure in your mind that is acceptable, so why not
> state what a per student renovation that you
> believe is reasonable should cost in Fairfax
> County. If you believe a renovation of Clifton
> was more expensive on a per student basis than
> many others completed in the past or planned for
> the future I would say the 25+ member team in FCPS
> marketing has more than done their jobs selling to
> you.

+1 :-)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: notacliftonelitist ()
Date: October 20, 2011 06:36AM

How much would it cost to build a brand new high school? You missed the point 11 million just so these kids could stay at your elitist school... There are things that ate necessary like making sure 1800 students have a high school to go to versus 11 million dollars to keep a school open which doesn't have the population to feed the school over a wider area than anywhere else in ffx county. This doesn't even factor in operating costs...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: logicaldog ()
Date: October 20, 2011 07:19AM

I'm curious, how are you defining an "elitist" school, it wasn't new or high tech or even nicely equipped, you just don't like the people because you think they have more money than you do...crappy reason.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: notacliftonelitist ()
Date: October 20, 2011 07:53AM

First of all way to conclude that because I'm not in Clifton I don't have money, which a) shows how elitist you folks are, b) doesn't take in to consideration that plenty of areas in the county are just as wealthy or wealthier than Clifton, and you don't here these problems there, well of course except for the fact of red @ss h()le mom, but I digress...

It is elitist for what it is... a lack of diversity, this was more about not having to go to school with ESOL and free and reduced lunch students than it was anything else. Before closing Clifton had low attendance and the largest boundary of any Elementary School in the county... The rest of the tax payers of Fairfax County shouldn't have to carry this burden so you can keep on unviable school opened...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: October 20, 2011 10:52AM

Wow, bitter much? If living in a $550,000 home in Fairfax County makes one an elitist then you are clearly pissed at nearly half of the people that live here. And yes, a fair sized population with students that attended Clifton Elementary fit into the demographic. Likely a LOT more than you would expect. Remember the uber-wealthy send their children to private schools. While an extremely small population of families with students at Clifton [read as less than 5] may have had an issue with ESOL and diversity factors, the students and families with children that did not go to private school as a result of the closure decision appear to have adjusted well to their relatively diverse new environs. The interesting missing factor is the sense of community within the schools. At Clifton teachers, staff and just about every parent volunteer would wave and say hello to students in the halls. None of that is permitted in the quiet zones of the schools children now attend so the feeling of comfort/community appears less present. And I don't mean this to sound like those schools are wrong in their management of the learning environment, it is just different and at times comes across as colder in nature.

Is it too much to ask those with such bitter feelings towards the students and families that had children at Clifton to get over it like all from the Clifton area have been asked so often to do. The environment at the school was different because of the link to the community that many of the staff had and the volunteer spirit of the families at the school. Few schools have this in FCPS an those tht do are fortunate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: StillnotaCLIFTONelitist ()
Date: October 20, 2011 01:09PM

You clearly don't get what I'm saying, and if you think I'm bitter thats hilarious... I'm sick and tired of the self-serving Clifton community thinking that they deserve this school, or that this school is any better than any other school in the system...I could live in Clifton if I wanted, but that isn't a life style that I have any desire for at all...

I'm sorry that Clifton was a magical place of unicorns, rainbows and everyone waiving hi, community is what you make out of it, these kids are getting just as great an education at the schools they are at now...

The reason that the rest of the county for the most part is not elitist is because of the great amount of wealth this county poses, but at the same time has a great deal of diversity. I don't know how you can say 5 out of 200 some families had the ESOL/reduced lunch attitude, just look at the other stuff that is written here/to school board members - All you have to do is look at logicaldog's racist rants about Asians early today in the TJ thread...

Once again though, not bitter, not jealous, just sick and tired of this dead horse getting beaten, if there was a good reason for the school to still be opened it would be...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: herewegoagain ()
Date: October 20, 2011 02:03PM

notacliftonelitist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First of all way to conclude that because I'm not
> in Clifton I don't have money, which a) shows how
> elitist you folks are, b) doesn't take in to
> consideration that plenty of areas in the county
> are just as wealthy or wealthier than Clifton, and
> you don't here these problems there, well of
> course except for the fact of red @ss h()le mom,
> but I digress...
>
> It is elitist for what it is... a lack of
> diversity, this was more about not having to go to
> school with ESOL and free and reduced lunch
> students than it was anything else. Before
> closing Clifton had low attendance and the largest
> boundary of any Elementary School in the county...
> The rest of the tax payers of Fairfax County
> shouldn't have to carry this burden so you can
> keep on unviable school opened...


Besides the fact that your post is barely comprehensible (punctuation and spell check are helpful, btw), it shows just how little you know about Clifton, the people that live in Clifton, or this issue in general.

You claim that this was more about "not having to go to school with ESOL and free and reduced lunch students than it was anything else". How so? The 3 schools that CES kids are at this year have the same "diversity" as CES, or very close to it. That was NEVER an issue.

You claim low attendance at CES. CES was at maximum capacity, with almost 400 children. How is that low attendance? There are several schools in FFX Co. with comparable, and in some cases, lower attendance than CES. As for the largest boundary of any elementary school (no need to capitalize those words in the middle of your sentence, btw), have you seen the new boundary map for Fairview Elementary? It's now the same size as the former CES boundary. Another ridiculous and baseless argument.

You say CES was "unviable". In what sense? The definition of unviable is: not capable of working successfully; not feasible. CES was ranked #2 in the county for performance and received The Governor's award for excellence. How is that not working successfully? Now, if you meant financially unviable, well, sorry, but you're wrong again. I don't have the time or inclination to try and educate you on this subject, but if you took the time to educate yourself, you'd realize how ignorant your statements are.

To give you just a small example, I'll insert a picture below which was taken from FCPS Dashboard in 2009, when this whole issue about CES began. This picture shows that CES was at 98% utilization, extremely close to full capacity (only enough room for 8 more students in 2009. When CES closed, there were 377 students - oops, OVER capacity) and the projected enrollment was expected to increase, not decrease. Magically, once the SWRBS committee started looking into these "facts", those facts changed, drastically. Why, you might ask? Because those "facts" didn't support the closure of CES. That's when the FCPS "staff", led by Dean Tisdadt manipulated the "facts" to suit their purposes. How, you might ask? By conveniently omitting almost half of the CES boundary from the new projected enrollment. This isn't speculation - it's a fact that has been proven.
Attachments:
CES CAP and ENROLLMENT.JPG

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: logicaldog ()
Date: October 20, 2011 06:06PM

Yes God forbid anyone in FCPS thinks they should have a good school, cause nobody else does. A small school is good, there are few with good solid community involvement and you are jealous, get over yourself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: liz iz cool ()
Date: January 02, 2012 07:48PM

Robert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I WANT TO SUE FCPS. THEY ARE CLOSING CLIFTON
> ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. IT ONE OF THE BEST SCHOOL IN
> FCPS. I HATE JACK DALE. THE ONLY REASON CLIFTON
> ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IS SUCH A GOOD SCHOOL IS BECAUSE
> WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF BLAKCS OR ILLEGALS IN OUR
> SCHOOL. IF WE REMOVED THEM EVER SCHOOL WOULD BE
> LIKE CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL


I wish we could close it again. The CES parents were exposed as the selfish monsters that they are. At least now the kids have a chance to break the cycle of selfishness and hate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 03, 2012 03:29AM

Selfish? Really? Donating thousands of dollars and hours of time to community groups outside of your community is now called being selfish? When you can say something based remotely on actual facts, then I'll listen to you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: small is "out" ()
Date: January 03, 2012 07:52AM

They want too big to fail. Politics. Educational flavor of the moment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: nouveau ()
Date: January 03, 2012 12:36PM

Many of you are just wanting to start class warfare, just because Clifton was a good small school you are jealous, that doesn't mean you couldn't have one if you just had a pair like the parents at Clifton...I guess it is the culture of poverty not to feel worthy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: the taxpayer ()
Date: January 03, 2012 08:40PM

Bad water, unsafe, in need millions $$$ in renovations, asbestos, and a fire trap. Good riddance Clifton Elementary!

Bet you wish you never asked for and had your kiddies suck down the tax payer purchased bottled water in place of the tainted well H2O.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 04, 2012 08:40AM

the taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bad water, unsafe, in need millions $$$ in
> renovations, asbestos, and a fire trap. Good
> riddance Clifton Elementary!
>
> Bet you wish you never asked for and had your
> kiddies suck down the tax payer purchased bottled
> water in place of the tainted well H2O.

You think bottled water (the 5 gallon size type) is expensive, wait until you see the security camera costs. Oh and the county even stated that the bottled water cost for the 4 years it was provided was minimal. Have you even looked at the renovations done to other schools? There is a 20 by 20 (possibly larger) "portrait" of Edison in the Edison HS entry to the school following the renovation that I am certain cost well over half of a full time teachers salary to design and install.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: maintenance ()
Date: January 04, 2012 08:56AM

FCPS/Fairfax County takes great pleasure in impressing people by throwing huge amounts of money into new projects. But do they allocating money for basic maintenance/repair of existing structures is a different issue. West Springfield HS, TJHSST, and others are examples of how no one seems interested in practical matters. They like the drama of letting things get dangerously neglected before being forced to do something about it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: old yates ford ()
Date: January 04, 2012 08:41PM

Go AWAY Liz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liz Bradsher -
>
> Get a life and go AWAY. You are a has been who
> should have been a "was never".
>
> You are a hate-filled toxic poisonous vapid
> IQ-less bitter nasty person.
>
> Get a high-colonic and detox in some chemical
> containment field. The half-life of you vile
> insides is beyond any of our lifespans.


Liz tried to talk about building a new school but the closed minded selfish pricks wanted things their way or nothing.
Not all clifton people are purely selfish but the vocal few are and they make the rest of us look bad. I am thankfull that my kids are grown amd not living in Clifton.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: BS ()
Date: January 04, 2012 09:26PM

Clifton was never offered a new school. Get your facts straight. You sound like an old wind bag looking to cause trouble. I guess you must be friends with Liz.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: the taxpayer ()
Date: January 04, 2012 09:50PM

old yates ford Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Liz tried to talk about building a new school but
> the closed minded selfish pricks wanted things
> their way or nothing.

Right next to Liberty MS. Dumb move on the part of Clifton town folks not to jump on it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: they said no ()
Date: January 04, 2012 11:29PM

Clifton parents were offered a new school---the School Board took a tour to the site and the parents were at that Liberty site when the tour took place. A new school was on the table ---they (the parents) took it off. BIG MISTAKE--
Apparently Herrity was part of that mistake, he was there with the parents urging them to say no to the new school. I saw him and parents protesting the Board against the new school, so did my neighbor from LRR.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 05, 2012 01:21AM

they said no Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clifton parents were offered a new school---the
> School Board took a tour to the site and the
> parents were at that Liberty site when the tour
> took place. A new school was on the table ---they
> (the parents) took it off. BIG MISTAKE--
> Apparently Herrity was part of that mistake, he
> was there with the parents urging them to say no
> to the new school. I saw him and parents
> protesting the Board against the new school, so
> did my neighbor from LRR.

Did you know those families protesting a new school at the Liberty site the day of the tour were Union Mill families and not Clifton Elementary families? Did you also know that Mr. Herrity LIVES IN LRR and had just as much right to show up and show his views the day of the visit to the proposed Liberty site? Did you know that to build a new school at the Liberty site would likely cost over $10M more than doing minimal work at Clifton Elementary? Did you know that many vocal families with students at Clifton Elementary were willing to delay any renovations in favor of supporting other schools that were in greater need of renovation? No, it appears you knew none of these facts. Please don't mistake FCPS and Bradsher spin as fact. Thank you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: old yates ford ()
Date: January 05, 2012 05:28AM

the taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> old yates ford Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Liz tried to talk about building a new school
> but
> > the closed minded selfish pricks wanted things
> > their way or nothing.
>
> Right next to Liberty MS. Dumb move on the part of
> Clifton town folks not to jump on it.


Most of the CES parents would not even discuss the new school option they were so sure that they could win by stamping their feet and holding their breath till their faces turned blue.
Thankfully the taxpayers of the county were the winners. The Clifton folks did manage to get a few extra years out of CES, it should have been closed in 2008.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Cat ()
Date: January 05, 2012 07:38AM

Justataxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they said no Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Clifton parents were offered a new school---the
> > School Board took a tour to the site and the
> > parents were at that Liberty site when the tour
> > took place. A new school was on the table
> ---they
> > (the parents) took it off. BIG MISTAKE--
> > Apparently Herrity was part of that mistake, he
> > was there with the parents urging them to say
> no
> > to the new school. I saw him and parents
> > protesting the Board against the new school, so
> > did my neighbor from LRR.
>
> Did you know those families protesting a new
> school at the Liberty site the day of the tour
> were Union Mill families and not Clifton
> Elementary families? Did you also know that Mr.
> Herrity LIVES IN LRR and had just as much right to
> show up and show his views the day of the visit to
> the proposed Liberty site? Did you know that to
> build a new school at the Liberty site would
> likely cost over $10M more than doing minimal work
> at Clifton Elementary? Did you know that many
> vocal families with students at Clifton Elementary
> were willing to delay any renovations in favor of
> supporting other schools that were in greater need
> of renovation? No, it appears you knew none of
> these facts. Please don't mistake FCPS and
> Bradsher spin as fact. Thank you.


Justataxpayer is correct.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: I agree ()
Date: January 05, 2012 08:21AM

Justataxpayer is correct.

I also want to note that the Liberty site was turned down due to problems with the soil having asbestos.The SB knew that all along too. Building a new school while a current school was already built would be a danger to the kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: backtofuture ()
Date: January 05, 2012 09:20AM

20124 Income

Median Household Income $154495 in 2009, now 198745


20124 is zip for "real clifton" not fake, like Little Rocky Run included, which was not the area covered by Clifton Elementary School, but income has nothing to do with it, everyone is entitled to a good school, just so happens that Clifton parents care enough to try to do something about it, which is more than I can say for your sorry asses.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: UMES ()
Date: January 05, 2012 09:27AM

They should have never closed Clifton ES. UMES is now overcrowded and some classes are being held in the hallways. Union Mill has suffered a lot since the building was not built to hold 750+ kids. They should have kept Clifton open till addtions were made to the other schools. The SB did not think ahead and now everyone is suffering.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Not correct ()
Date: January 05, 2012 12:42PM

To Justataxpayor and Cat:
CES parents were at the site on that day, they traveled behind the School Board bus-- we saw the caravan. Stop with the spin argument, you and others don't want to hear the truth of the matter.

The asbestos was natural asbestos not of the kind in buildings --LRR is built on the very same vein of asbestos---so I guess all those homeowners should vacate too?

Building a school at the site would have cost more than the renovation but it would have been built for over 700+ students, helping with other area capacity needs per the report. Clifton handled about 350. Talk about spin...get it right for a change, that is probably asking too much.

Herrity has no children in public school---he knows little, typical politician.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Natural occurring asbestos ()
Date: January 05, 2012 01:28PM

Asbestos even if natural would still be stirred up and into the air if the ground was broken for a new school. The site was deemed no good for the asbestos reason as it could harm the kids already in the Liberty Middle school. No one said anything about homeowners moving. You get your facts straight.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Really? ()
Date: January 05, 2012 01:49PM

If you think Clifton parents had a choice of where or if a new school was built you are crazy. The SB decides that. The SB found out that the Liberty site was not a good option to build on.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: typical school board ()
Date: January 05, 2012 01:51PM

UMES Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They should have never closed Clifton ES. UMES is
> now overcrowded and some classes are being held in
> the hallways. Union Mill has suffered a lot since
> the building was not built to hold 750+ kids. They
> should have kept Clifton open till addtions were
> made to the other schools. The SB did not think
> ahead and now everyone is suffering.


This is a disturbing pattern with the FCPS school board decisions. They don't THINK and PLAN ahead. If a person dares to question their decision, the school board and/or community paints the person as an elitist, a helicopter parents, etc.

If FCPS really put the vast amount of money they have into more practical things (and less on useless training seminars for Gatehouse administrators on the west coast or a new 'study'), there wouldn't be so much distrust from the residents.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: the Taxpayer ()
Date: January 05, 2012 03:01PM

Not correct Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To Justataxpayor and Cat:
> CES parents were at the site on that day, they
> traveled behind the School Board bus-- we saw the
> caravan. Stop with the spin argument, you and
> others don't want to hear the truth of the matter.
>
>
> The asbestos was natural asbestos not of the kind
> in buildings --LRR is built on the very same vein
> of asbestos---so I guess all those homeowners
> should vacate too?
>
> Building a school at the site would have cost more
> than the renovation but it would have been built
> for over 700+ students, helping with other area
> capacity needs per the report. Clifton handled
> about 350. Talk about spin...get it right for a
> change, that is probably asking too much.
>
> Herrity has no children in public school---he
> knows little, typical politician.

Great points and accurate facts on what occurred. justataxpaer and the other Clifton supporters are entitled to their own opinion, but not entitled to falsify what the facts are. This is what they did, and continue to do now.

It was gratifying to see that the rest of the county didn't buy in, and reelected all the incumbents who ran for reelection.

Herrity and the lot of them are RINOs, or simply don't care about fiscal stewardship when it occurs in their own backyard.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: The taxpayer is wrong ()
Date: January 05, 2012 03:10PM

The site for a new school at Liberty could not be used. No spin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Let's get it straight ()
Date: January 05, 2012 03:13PM

The Liberty site is buildable, there were no problems with the site other than the community did not want a school on that site.

Clifton supporters are entitled to their opinion but not entitled to misrepresent the facts. The rest of the county has little time for such complaints nor do we care.

What kids are suffering? Really suffereing? Meeting new friends, is that suffering? Going to a bigger school with more opportunities, is that suffering? Suffering is being in some third world nation and not having enough food or access to ample education. No one in this county suffers with a Fx education.

People are tired of Clifton parents, suggest we all BOYCOT Clifton Day!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Liberty site ()
Date: January 05, 2012 04:06PM

The Liberty MS site was not deemed as a safe place to build a new school. If it was the SB would have used it. The Clifton parents had nothing to do with the Liberty site not being used to build a new school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: SPIN ALERT? ()
Date: January 05, 2012 06:34PM

Liberty site Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Liberty MS site was not deemed as a safe place
> to build a new school. If it was the SB would have
> used it. The Clifton parents had nothing to do
> with the Liberty site not being used to build a
> new school.

^^Spin or blatant lies. Which is it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: No spin No lies ()
Date: January 05, 2012 07:01PM

Liberty was an adequate site---All lies from Clifton about the site. Read the report. There is natural asbestos throughout that area to include Clifton, LRR and areas along Union Mill, Braddock and north. People still build and live there despite natural asbestos.

Clifton parents and some of LRR tried to tank the site using asbestos as the reason. They got nasty, the Board no doubt thought why bother, residents don't want a new school. That left closing CES and building some additions and/or renovating it knowing its costs would exceed others and also building some additions.

No spin,no lies.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: No spin no lies BS ()
Date: January 05, 2012 07:57PM

The SB could have just left Clifton open. Nothing was wrong with the school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: eductor1 ()
Date: January 05, 2012 08:31PM

No spin no lies BS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The SB could have just left Clifton open. Nothing
> was wrong with the school.


The school needed upgrades and they were put off for years. The CES kids are much better off in their new schools despite what their douchebag parents say.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Nice language ()
Date: January 05, 2012 08:33PM

I hope the above poster does not have kids.

CES won many awards and was a great school.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: the taxpayer ()
Date: January 05, 2012 09:00PM

Nice language Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> CES won many awards and was a great school.


Like a old Thoroughbred horse, time to send it to the glue factory

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Liz Bradsher ()
Date: January 05, 2012 11:25PM

Bradsher is still and always will be a bitch, no matter what happens to CES.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 05, 2012 11:29PM

I for one can say that not one NEW educational opportunity has come forward for my child now attending one of the schools that received the Clifton Elementary students. NOT ONE! Liz Bradsher spoke of the greater opportunities at The reassigned schools yet never once articulated WHAT EXACTLY those opportunities would be, likely because she had no idea, but it sounded good.

No, the children aren't being educated in some third world country environment, but at the same time the variety of opportunities and the volunteerism shown by the Clifton Elementary community was far greater than what is resident at my child's reassigned school. And yes, I gave the school from the start of this school year until now to show these grand benefits and have yet to see ANY. Yes, my child is getting a fine education however they are not being exposed to the cultural, historic, nor community commitment scale of what was available at Clifton Elementary. The teachers, staff, parents AND local citizens made the school the awesome learning environment that it was. If we had never known that environment, perhaps we would be fine with the level of programs being provided at the reassigned schools, but I know for me and my neighbors we feel as if we have taken a backward step in educational value from what Fairfax County once had.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 05, 2012 11:45PM

No spin No lies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liberty was an adequate site---All lies from
> Clifton about the site. Read the report. There is
> natural asbestos throughout that area to include
> Clifton, LRR and areas along Union Mill, Braddock
> and north. People still build and live there
> despite natural asbestos.
> Clifton parents and some of LRR tried to tank the
> site using asbestos as the reason. They got
> nasty, the Board no doubt thought why bother,
> residents don't want a new school. That left
> closing CES and building some additions and/or
> renovating it knowing its costs would exceed
> others and also building some additions.
>
> No spin,no lies.

"Not proximate to the area of overcrowding." Ring any bells Dean or Liz or whoever is posting this asbestos storyline. THAT was an actual, verifiable and documented reason for NOT selecting the Liberty site.

The resident of LRR didn't want their community split up to attend Union Mill and the new elementary school on the Liberty site. And many Clifton Elementary families among others in the county realized the cost of a new school was not justifiable if the School Board was already crying "lack of funds" for construction.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Dean and Liz ()
Date: January 06, 2012 08:16AM

Check the WaPost article today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/fairfax-parents-seek-school-repairs/2012/01/05/gIQA9xnndP_story.html

Dean Tisdadt says there is no money for repairs. Yet somehow there's money to build the new South County Middle School. How is it that there is no money for maintenance, yet there is money to build a brand-new school (Bradsher's project)?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: No spin No lies ()
Date: January 06, 2012 08:19AM

Gosh--Justataxpayor really loves a spin and has been doing so for years. I have checked your entries. No doubt you were involved the Clifton issue. The Liberty site was not near the area of overcrowding on 29 but could have assisted with overcrowding near Centreville ES, Centreridge and assisted with Clifton. I read the report BUCKO!

I also know the School Board opted out of the building at Liberty because of your nastiness and LRR's issues with the possibilities of our community being split. I was at the LRR meeting and remember Bradsher said she did not want to split the LRR neighborhood and she said that was a possibility with the Liberty site. She was pretty upfront at that meeting and wanted LRR feedback.

They would have built a school at that site and then built additions elsewhere, in plain English the Clifton people and even my neighborhood (those who listened to you) shot themselves in the foot. The system builds new schools when needed, apparently they use bonding not operational funding. So once again you are wrong on the matter of paying for a school. You and "friends" were the cause of your own situation and now you blame it on others. Nice spin.

BTW I dare to call you out because I can and we are all tired of you, your spin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: FCPS and Dean T ()
Date: January 06, 2012 08:23AM

Dean Tisdadt is a liar. If you tell the truth you do not need to have a great memory. How does this man keep his job?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: crosspoints ()
Date: January 06, 2012 08:28AM

Tisdadt is a liar and a tool. CES parents called him on it=good for them, if more parents stood up for their school we would have better schools, currently you idiots are just buying into the propaganda cause it hurts to think for yourselves/

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: SOAR ()
Date: January 06, 2012 08:29AM

New schools are built for reasons of need--enrollment need.

Renovations are on a timeline and based upon facility need. Langley and West Springfield are ahead of Falls Church due to building and capacity need. Read the system's Capital Improvement Program. Contact us.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Not from Clifton ()
Date: January 06, 2012 08:37AM

Being nasty and accusing those making decisions is a great way to stand up for yourself and get what you want. Nice job Clifton.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 06, 2012 09:39AM

No spin No lies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gosh--Justataxpayor really loves a spin and has
> been doing so for years. I have checked your
> entries. No doubt you were involved the Clifton
> issue. The Liberty site was not near the area of
> overcrowding on 29 but could have assisted with
> overcrowding near Centreville ES, Centreridge and
> assisted with Clifton. I read the report BUCKO!
>

Glad to know you read the report. Which one? The FCPS Staff report or the community report from the ad-hoc committee? The ad-hoc group indicated in their final report that the Liberty site was not ideal due to the focus of overcrowding being about 5 miles north of the site. Also, FCPS stated that student populations in the Clifton zip code would decline, so my thought would be why build a school where enrollments were flat or declining slightly?

> I also know the School Board opted out of the
> building at Liberty because of your nastiness and
> LRR's issues with the possibilities of our
> community being split. I was at the LRR meeting
> and remember Bradsher said she did not want to
> split the LRR neighborhood and she said that was a
> possibility with the Liberty site. She was pretty
> upfront at that meeting and wanted LRR feedback.
>

Nastiness...please elaborate on that statement. Yes, some in the discussion, actually a very small but vocal group did turn to name-calling after the vote to close but remained quite controlled up to a few weeks prior to the vote. Specific mentions of how nastiness by specific individuals influenced FCPS decision would be nice. If you want nasty or perhaps better defined as inappropriate, how about school board members telling parents they know better than a parent what is best for their child. Really?

> They would have built a school at that site and
> then built additions elsewhere, in plain English
> the Clifton people and even my neighborhood (those
> who listened to you) shot themselves in the foot.
> The system builds new schools when needed,
> apparently they use bonding not operational
> funding. So once again you are wrong on the
> matter of paying for a school. You and "friends"
> were the cause of your own situation and now you
> blame it on others. Nice spin.

No, the school system pays for new facilities as well as the upkeep and renovation of existing facilities through bonds. The renovation of a school and the replacement of a roof for example is covered by the capital program which is funded by dollars from bonds, not the operating budget. The School Board and FCPS staff repeatedly spoke of how behind in renovations they were and for a need of greater bond funds. Brasher specifically told SOAR that they could move up the renovation calendar if Clifton Elementary was closed. Building a new school at Liberty would not have aided in moving West Springfield renovation timeline, and in fact may have delayed it and others even further.
>
> BTW I dare to call you out because I can and we
> are all tired of you, your spin.

Yes, on a message board you can say whatever you wish. Read above for clarifying points to some of your own misstatements.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: no spin no lies ()
Date: January 06, 2012 04:02PM

What is your point on bonding? WHSH did move up as did other projects, it was reported at a public meeting by Mr. Tistadt, so are you calling him a liar? If so what gives you the "authority" to do so? I would like to hear what Mr. Tistadt has to say. I am tired of people like you complaining in an anonymous forum and doing nothing. Your posts are full of incorrect information and you continue with such babble--so now I am standing up to you. How does it feel?

The school system has been behind on renovations for years, this is why capital dollars are reviewed so closely. If Clifton was not needed the money could go elsewhere on the renovation list. No brainer.

Building a school at Liberty would not have helped that renovation list but it was an option and public input mattered. Why would a Board member have agreed to build a school at Liberty and spend that money for 2 communities against such a site and school? Better to close Clifton, take the heat, save the money and put it to other uses for other communities that appreciate it.

Clifton really lobbied well, didn't they? Stop your spin ---done with you and this thread

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: I am you are done ()
Date: January 06, 2012 04:30PM

I am glad no spin no lies is leaving. He has his facts mixed up and he is complaining and do nothing. The Clifton community fought for their school and they deserve credit for it. What has no spin no lies done lately?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: the Taxpayer ()
Date: January 06, 2012 04:31PM

Justataxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I for one can say that not one NEW educational
> opportunity has come forward for my child now
> attending one of the schools that received the
> Clifton Elementary students. NOT ONE! Liz
> Bradsher spoke of the greater opportunities at The
> reassigned schools yet never once articulated WHAT
> EXACTLY those opportunities would be, likely
> because she had no idea, but it sounded good.
>
> No, the children aren't being educated in some
> third world country environment, but at the same
> time the variety of opportunities and the
> volunteerism shown by the Clifton Elementary
> community was far greater than what is resident at
> my child's reassigned school. And yes, I gave the
> school from the start of this school year until
> now to show these grand benefits and have yet to
> see ANY. Yes, my child is getting a fine
> education however they are not being exposed to
> the cultural, historic, nor community commitment
> scale of what was available at Clifton Elementary.
> The teachers, staff, parents AND local citizens
> made the school the awesome learning environment
> that it was. If we had never known that
> environment, perhaps we would be fine with the
> level of programs being provided at the reassigned
> schools, but I know for me and my neighbors we
> feel as if we have taken a backward step in
> educational value from what Fairfax County once
> had.

That's horse pucky. Your kid is getting the same great education they received at CES. If there isn't the same level of volunteerism you only have yourself and your neighbors to blame.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Credit? ()
Date: January 06, 2012 05:19PM

To: I am you are done
Credit for accusations, attacks, nastiness and bitterness. That is what Clifton means to all of us outside your gated trees.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: to credit? ()
Date: January 06, 2012 05:37PM

Hi Liz!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: credit? ()
Date: January 06, 2012 06:54PM

?
Not her sorry to disappoint, just some one else who gets it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 07, 2012 12:07AM

the Taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> That's horse pucky. Your kid is getting the same
> great education they received at CES. If there
> isn't the same level of volunteerism you only have
> yourself and your neighbors to blame.

Wow, you know so much about what Clifton Elementary was like an also now know about Union Mill, Fairview and Oak View too. I can only deduce you are a member of FCPS staff, a school board member or one great BS artist. Oh and me and my neighbors do volunteer at the new school. So I take no blame for trying to continue to contribute to the education of my child as well as their classmates as my family and my neighbors did at Clifton Elementary.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 07, 2012 12:33AM

no spin no lies Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is your point on bonding? WHSH did move up
> as did other projects, it was reported at a public
> meeting by Mr. Tistadt, so are you calling him a
> liar?

Well of course, we should always trust every word ever spoken by any public servant...silly me for ever questioning an individual that is responsible for the educational environment and safe transport of over 180,000 children each school day.

My point is this, the $10-$12M put back in the CIP queue because Clifton was not renovated actually decreased to between $7-$9M because of the dollars needed to modify Fairview, Union Mill and Oak View to support the influx of students from Clifton. $7-$9M is about HALF of the historical renovation cost of an elementary school and about 10% of the costs to renovate a typical high school. Saying that WSHS or any other school for that matter got measurably closer to being renovated because of the Clifton Elementary closure only shows your lack of understanding of finance. You can't start a project for which you don't have 100% of the funding available.

> If so what gives you the "authority" to do
> so? I would like to hear what Mr. Tistadt has to
> say. I am tired of people like you complaining in
> an anonymous forum and doing nothing. Your posts
> are full of incorrect information and you continue
> with such babble--so now I am standing up to you.
> How does it feel?

Stand up all you want. Keep this up and I will gladly post the links to the data and timestamps of the School Board meetings and FOIA'd email content that covers who said what again.

Tistadt is paid by our tax dollars. He lies. Hate to break it to you, but public employees lie. Even in "pristine" Fairfax County. He withheld information regarding water quality data that he had HOURS before the meeting where the vote to close Clifton took place yet didn't release that information until the meeting was well under way. No, an honest man he must be because after all, how could he intentionally do such a thing? That is unfathomable to you I am certain.

>
> The school system has been behind on renovations
> for years, this is why capital dollars are
> reviewed so closely. If Clifton was not needed
> the money could go elsewhere on the renovation
> list. No brainer.
>
> Building a school at Liberty would not have helped
> that renovation list but it was an option and
> public input mattered. Why would a Board member
> have agreed to build a school at Liberty and spend
> that money for 2 communities against such a site
> and school? Better to close Clifton, take the
> heat, save the money and put it to other uses for
> other communities that appreciate it.
>

The above point I find humorous considering taxpayers have already spent $50M on a middle school set to open later this year that in less than 5 years will be at 60% capacity based on FCPS data presented by FPAC. Yep, that's a great use of construction funds there in an area clearly in tremendous need of additional classroom space. Wake up! Surrounding schools could have taken the overcrowded students from South County and a new Middle School would not have been needed. I keep hearing BRAC this and BRAC that is going to contribute to massive student population growth in that are....I don't buy it and clearly neither did someone at FCPS given the projections in the FPAC area of FCPS.edu for the 2016 school year.

> Clifton really lobbied well, didn't they? Stop
> your spin ---done with you and this thread

Aw shucks and I was just getting started here with you....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: gordonblvd5 ()
Date: January 07, 2012 07:35AM

JUSTATAXPAYER is right. Probably a FCPS troll, I know they are paid to make comments on these sites and DO care alot even tho they profess to discredit (same as "rate my teachers" which is where you can get the only real unbiased account of teachers)...Clifton Elementary School was a much much much better school than any of the three new feeder elementary schools.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: do what's right ()
Date: January 07, 2012 08:01AM

BRAC is overrated given the budget cuts that are coming. Military is not growing now.

Best use of money would be to shore up schools that we do have like WSHS and Falls Church (which is under capacity). Also support staff---but not by killing their creativity with more ECart and testing. The top down management is out of control (and it starts with the feds). This district is not improving from an outcome point of view. More glitzy new schools do not equal student success. The teachers need to be supported with lower class size and RESPECT for what they do. They are the most important factor and they are being treated like crap. Sorry to say this, but it's true. When you treat them like idiots, you will get idiots applying for the job. When you badmouth them, you will not inspire. There is madness out there.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Facts Check ()
Date: January 07, 2012 12:53PM

Justataxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no spin no lies Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What is your point on bonding? WHSH did move
> up
> > as did other projects, it was reported at a
> public
> > meeting by Mr. Tistadt, so are you calling him
> a
> > liar?
>
> Well of course, we should always trust every word
> ever spoken by any public servant...silly me for
> ever questioning an individual that is responsible
> for the educational environment and safe transport
> of over 180,000 children each school day.
>
> My point is this, the $10-$12M put back in the CIP
> queue because Clifton was not renovated actually
> decreased to between $7-$9M because of the dollars
> needed to modify Fairview, Union Mill and Oak View
> to support the influx of students from Clifton.
> $7-$9M is about HALF of the historical renovation
> cost of an elementary school and about 10% of the
> costs to renovate a typical high school. Saying
> that WSHS or any other school for that matter got
> measurably closer to being renovated because of
> the Clifton Elementary closure only shows your
> lack of understanding of finance. You can't start
> a project for which you don't have 100% of the
> funding available.
>
> > If so what gives you the "authority" to do
> > so? I would like to hear what Mr. Tistadt has
> to
> > say. I am tired of people like you complaining
> in
> > an anonymous forum and doing nothing. Your
> posts
> > are full of incorrect information and you
> continue
> > with such babble--so now I am standing up to
> you.
> > How does it feel?
>
> Stand up all you want. Keep this up and I will
> gladly post the links to the data and timestamps
> of the School Board meetings and FOIA'd email
> content that covers who said what again.
>
> Tistadt is paid by our tax dollars. He lies.
> Hate to break it to you, but public employees lie.
> Even in "pristine" Fairfax County. He withheld
> information regarding water quality data that he
> had HOURS before the meeting where the vote to
> close Clifton took place yet didn't release that
> information until the meeting was well under way.
> No, an honest man he must be because after all,
> how could he intentionally do such a thing? That
> is unfathomable to you I am certain.
>
> >
> > The school system has been behind on
> renovations
> > for years, this is why capital dollars are
> > reviewed so closely. If Clifton was not needed
> > the money could go elsewhere on the renovation
> > list. No brainer.
> >
> > Building a school at Liberty would not have
> helped
> > that renovation list but it was an option and
> > public input mattered. Why would a Board member
> > have agreed to build a school at Liberty and
> spend
> > that money for 2 communities against such a
> site
> > and school? Better to close Clifton, take the
> > heat, save the money and put it to other uses
> for
> > other communities that appreciate it.
> >
>
> The above point I find humorous considering
> taxpayers have already spent $50M on a middle
> school set to open later this year that in less
> than 5 years will be at 60% capacity based on FCPS
> data presented by FPAC. Yep, that's a great use
> of construction funds there in an area clearly in
> tremendous need of additional classroom space.
> Wake up! Surrounding schools could have taken the
> overcrowded students from South County and a new
> Middle School would not have been needed. I keep
> hearing BRAC this and BRAC that is going to
> contribute to massive student population growth in
> that are....I don't buy it and clearly neither did
> someone at FCPS given the projections in the FPAC
> area of FCPS.edu for the 2016 school year.
>
> > Clifton really lobbied well, didn't they? Stop
> > your spin ---done with you and this thread
>
> Aw shucks and I was just getting started here with
> you....


Please cite where the South County school cost $50 million.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 07, 2012 02:13PM

Facts Check Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Please cite where the South County school cost $50
> million.

I stand corrected after reviewing the 2011-16 CIP documents. Just short of $30M is the approximate figure for South County Middle. Still, with $30M, the county could have renovated 2 elementary schools in much more dire need of work than what South County needed from a "capacity" standpoint.

Reference point for future projected South County Middle and High School student populations from FPAC is located here:

http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/fpac/UtilizationMaps.pdf (slides 14 and 15)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Parent of SCSS ()
Date: January 07, 2012 02:52PM

Have your children spent years in an overcrowded school that was meant to be a high school with inadequate labs for middle school students, inadequate core facilities, etc.? The south county area has waited years for this school and worked hard to get such facilities in place for students and community infrastructure.

South County opened up over capacity, and then adding injury to insult the School Board overcrowded the school. So don't tell us and others the school is not needed.

You have no argument and you have no idea what our community has lived through and how we proactively sought resolutions. Perhaps you are just plain bitter because we worked in a manner that was not accusatory to those making the decisions and we were successful in our advocacy.

We deserve this school and have no doubt it will be full. They have already made it a special education center and an AAP center, both of which are very much needed. Stop your continued hate for our area. Must be the water in your are that brings about such hate.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Facts Check ()
Date: January 07, 2012 02:59PM

Justataxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts Check Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Please cite where the South County school cost
> $50
> > million.
>
> I stand corrected after reviewing the 2011-16 CIP
> documents. Just short of $30M is the approximate
> figure for South County Middle. Still, with $30M,
> the county could have renovated 2 elementary
> schools in much more dire need of work than what
> South County needed from a "capacity" standpoint.
>
> Reference point for future projected South County
> Middle and High School student populations from
> FPAC is located here:
>
> http://www.fcps.edu/fts/planning/fpac/UtilizationM
> aps.pdf (slides 14 and 15)

Thank you for standing corrected. You should limit your commentary to things you actually know to avoid further embarassment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: dell ave ()
Date: January 07, 2012 04:00PM

wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> today i learned people in clifton are...kind of
> racist. maybe more diverse schools dont always out
> perform segregated...erm..."less diverse"
> schools...but at least more of those kids won't
> grow up to be racist assholes like their parents
> probably are.
>
> half the people in clifton make me sick. just
> because you're blessed with a lot of money you
> look down on everyone else. if you want your kid
> to be a snob and go to a school with a 1:5
> teacher-student ratio, send them to a private
> school. that way they can be just like mommy and
> daddy.


I laugh to myself when I see the little clifton misfits getting on the bus in the mornings. Their parents may be swimming in lake "ME" but some of the kids will be saved from the foul example their selfish parents are setting for them. Sending them to school with normal children was the right thing to do.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Dell Ave is a pervert ()
Date: January 07, 2012 05:03PM

Calling Clifton children misfits is downright mean. I am also worried about you watching our kids every morning. You are a creepy pervert.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: the taxpayer ()
Date: January 07, 2012 06:36PM

Parent of SCSS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have your children spent years in an overcrowded
> school that was meant to be a high school with
> inadequate labs for middle school students,
> inadequate core facilities, etc.? The south
> county area has waited years for this school and
> worked hard to get such facilities in place for
> students and community infrastructure.
>
> South County opened up over capacity, and then
> adding injury to insult the School Board
> overcrowded the school. So don't tell us and
> others the school is not needed.
>
> You have no argument and you have no idea what our
> community has lived through and how we proactively
> sought resolutions. Perhaps you are just plain
> bitter because we worked in a manner that was not
> accusatory to those making the decisions and we
> were successful in our advocacy.
>
> We deserve this school and have no doubt it will
> be full. They have already made it a special
> education center and an AAP center, both of which
> are very much needed. Stop your continued hate
> for our area. Must be the water in your are that
> brings about such hate.


But, but you're not in Clifton! How dare you receive needed facilities.

Thanks for your post, it will fall on the self entitled deaf ears of the Clifton supporters here. Most likely they'll call you Liz, or Dale, or a FCPS clone since they have the blinders on.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: The taxpayer is ()
Date: January 07, 2012 06:41PM

Is Liz. Or just an asshole. I thought you said you were leaving too.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 07, 2012 06:58PM

Parent of SCSS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have your children spent years in an overcrowded
> school that was meant to be a high school with
> inadequate labs for middle school students,
> inadequate core facilities, etc.? The south
> county area has waited years for this school and
> worked hard to get such facilities in place for
> students and community infrastructure.
>
> South County opened up over capacity, and then
> adding injury to insult the School Board
> overcrowded the school. So don't tell us and
> others the school is not needed.
>
> You have no argument and you have no idea what our
> community has lived through and how we proactively
> sought resolutions. Perhaps you are just plain
> bitter because we worked in a manner that was not
> accusatory to those making the decisions and we
> were successful in our advocacy.
>
> We deserve this school and have no doubt it will
> be full. They have already made it a special
> education center and an AAP center, both of which
> are very much needed. Stop your continued hate
> for our area. Must be the water in your are that
> brings about such hate.

Why no, until this year my child attended a 95% capacity school with a tremendous staff and community feel yet now that is all gone. Don't blame me that Fairfax County didn't have foresight enough to plan for this overwhelming demand of educational space when Lorton Prison closed. FCPS screwed up and did not adequately address your situation fast enough. Students from South County could have been rezoned very easily to schools with capacity but none of you wanted to hear that. You wanted your own school....which by the way I wouldn't get too attached to as you don't own that school, FCPS does and they can and will do whatever the heck they want with it...remember, the school board knows what is best for your child better than even you do. The only solution for your community based on the views of your neighbors was a new school.

I do know that many in your community including our previous school board member said a community school was needed in that area because of inadequate facilities and LONG bus rides to Hayfield Secondary school. I also know that your community many times had members that stated they simply did not want their Lorton Station children attending school with the likes of those attending Hayfield.

I don't hate you, I am simply making a point that the same rules don't apply to all as has been evidenced by the future lack of demand for school facilities. A 60% occupied middle school when surrounding schools - Lake Braddock, Hayfield and Robinson could absorb the students makes more sense instead of spending precious construction funds elsewhere.

I know didn't, but now do know the pain of having elementary aged children on a school bus 1 hour each way to school when previously they spent less than 20 minutes. I also know the challenges that 800+ student elementary schools have and the programs they can't support because they are just too big. While I and others have experinced greater hardships than prior years brought you will be getting your new school where I bet classrooms will sit unused for years with rooms in the high school becoming empty as well. Congrats on sucking money out of the system while others in the county endure 135%+ capacity challenges and have no neighboring schools with any space either.

Entitled much?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: justataxpayer is 100% correct ()
Date: January 08, 2012 09:36AM

Thank you justataxpayer!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Facts Check ()
Date: January 08, 2012 10:25AM

Juatataxpayer isn't even close to 100% correct. See my previous post.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 08, 2012 10:41AM

I missed one item and owned up to it. Much unlike others I have encountered in the process. Dean, Liz, Stu and the list goes on....

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Parent of SCSS ()
Date: January 08, 2012 10:53AM

Justataxpayor IS INCORRECT AGAIN

Those residing in the South County area were proud of going to Hayfield so let's get that straight.

Our previous School Board member worked with the entire community for changes, you don't like her because she told you and others that you are part of this county and there are no public "private" schools.

We received these schools because of need. Students in Clifton, many of whom live closer to the ESs they now go to are going to these schools because Clifton had too many issues causing too many dollars for renovation for too few students. I read the paper and saw some great remarks from Tim Hugo and others. Great pillars of the community who don't even send their kids to public schools, of course their choice. Perhaps if more people in your area sent their kids to public schools you would have the needed enrollment to keep your school going?

The middle school at Lake Braddock is the largest in the county with about 90% capacity and 1450 students, Irving at 88% and Robinson is at 108% capacity. What you think is room does not address enough room for South County students, furthermore you are being very short sighted and not realizing the severe capacity issues at Fairfax HS which will impact Robinson and have a trickle down affect. Yes, I stay involved as a parent and read the new Facilities Planning Advisory Council report. We know there will be a major boundary study to assist Fairfax and it will have implications for many schools and communities--we, as a community have been there many times before.

Really, you are spouting off crap without looking at the bigger picture which seems per usual for you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: SCSS is WRONG or a troll ()
Date: January 08, 2012 11:07AM

I do not know one child in Clifton who is now closer to their new ES. So many statements that you have made are wrong. I can't even go over your entire post Where are you getting your facts?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Facts Check ()
Date: January 08, 2012 11:20AM

Justataxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I missed one item and owned up to it. Much unlike
> others I have encountered in the process. Dean,
> Liz, Stu and the list goes on....

Here is number #2.

"A 60% occupied middle school when surrounding schools - Lake Braddock, Hayfield and Robinson could absorb the students makes more sense instead of spending precious construction funds elsewhere."

Lake Braddock and Robinson dont have the room at the middle school level. Period. When your kids get to Robinson you will understand. We dont want more kids here.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Parent of SCSS ()
Date: January 08, 2012 11:40AM

Thanks Fact Check appreciate your back-up.

As for the statement from the troll:

"I do not know one child in Clifton who is now closer to their new ES. So many statements that you have made are wrong. I can't even go over your entire post Where are you getting your facts?"

Oh let's see look at all the students from Deveraux Station area, Popes Head Road communities and Yates Ford Road and elswehere, they are closer to their schools than Clfiton ES. Look when you live in a community that is isolated from commerce you understand or should that commuting time will be longer. Examples: Great Falls, Mason Neck. SHOULD I REMIND YOU THERE WERE NO WALKERS TO CLIFTON? Per Mr. Dean Tistadt, COO of FCPS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: parent off of Yates Ford Rd ()
Date: January 08, 2012 02:08PM

Parent of SCSS is WRONG. My child is on the bus a lot longer now. I agree that you need to get your facts straight.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: parent of scss ()
Date: January 08, 2012 02:46PM

Yates Ford Road closer to 123 not down by Manassas.

Let's be sure the public knows about Yates Ford Road in its entirety. Also, let's not forget new bussing effieciencies which take place every year.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 08, 2012 03:17PM

parent of scss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yates Ford Road closer to 123 not down by
> Manassas.
>
> Let's be sure the public knows about Yates Ford
> Road in its entirety. Also, let's not forget new
> bussing effieciencies which take place every year.

Um, the VAST MAJORITY of students are attending schools FURTHER from them than Clifton Elementary. If you call not getting bus routes squared away until after Thanksgiving break for students at Fairview, then you are not too bright. Oh and students DID walk to Clifton Elementary. Drive in front of the school and look at the houses that share side/back yards with the parking lot and left aide of the school. Those students WALKED to school. Facts much? Oh, and DEAN WAS WRONG.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Facts much? ()
Date: January 08, 2012 04:54PM

this is #3 for you:

Not so about the vast majority, if you look at the map you can see that for most it is ride neutral for some they have longer bus rides for others it is shorter. I believe the report presented showed that overall the averaage bus ride would remain the same.

No students walked-- at one time several years ago 3 students walked from the house you state. (Again, in one of the FAQs).

Welcome to Fairfax County about your bus route we all go through such situations and they are ultimately resolved. My you were pampered weren't you?

3 strikes and you are OUT!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: not in Clifton ()
Date: January 08, 2012 05:25PM

I do not live in Clifton. However, I know that the bus ride depends greatly on the route taken and the roads crossed. I went through the South Lakes redistricting.

From looking at the area and the maps from the redistricting, it would appear that the kids who drew schools on the other side of 123 from Clifton are crossing into heavy traffic patterns that are greatly affected by commuting traffic. Prior to the redistricting, I would imagine that the buses did not have to deal with a lot of traffic to get to Clifton. Also, how many stops do the buses make?

We chose our neighborhood so that our kids could walk to school. That was important to me--but the SB does not always make decisions based on that. I wanted my kids to have short commutes--but look what Kathy Smith did: she took kids who lived about a mile from Chantilly and moved them to Oakton! And, now South Lakes is about to be overcrowded. Go figure.

Funny how during the South Lakes redistricting, 2000 was optimum for high school--but now the SB wants elementary schools greater than 1000. It defies common sense.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Interesting points ()
Date: January 08, 2012 05:38PM

Not in Clifton--you do raise some good comments.

The Clifton school took students from Clifton and Fairfax Station. All those area roads are for the most part 2 lanes, some places fairly narrow and in some places dangerous.

There are many from the Springfield, Burke and Fairfax Station area who cut through these roads to get to Manassas and PW County in the morning. So there is a bit of traffice on these roads and the busses stop on these roads. There are neighborhoods but not many and all again, for the most part are 5 acre, so there is distance between houses. Those traveling to their new schools near 123 will eventually get out to 123 which is 4 lanes. The buses can't be on 123 for more than a mile or 2 because the schools are close to the intersections taken to get onto 123. So really not much impact in terms of time on 123. For those around where I live 123 tends to back up by Fairfax Country Club, these students are not in that traffic.

I believe the SB said they try to look at available walkers, I heard one member say that was important during all of this controversy. I hope our ESs do not go over 1000 or close to it, that is too big!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Clifton parent ()
Date: January 08, 2012 06:25PM

Every child in my development off of Henderson Rd now rides the bus TWICE as long since they started going to Fairview ES.

Just looking at a FCPS map and stating as fact the bus times they projected is not correct. The bus times they have are WRONG.

I do not have one friend who has a child with a shorter bus ride. All of them are now on the bus longer.

Please get your facts right.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 08, 2012 06:59PM

Facts much? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> this is #3 for you:
>
> Not so about the vast majority, if you look at the
> map you can see that for most it is ride neutral
> for some they have longer bus rides for others it
> is shorter. I believe the report presented showed
> that overall the averaage bus ride would remain
> the same.
>
> No students walked-- at one time several years ago
> 3 students walked from the house you state.
> (Again, in one of the FAQs).
>
> Welcome to Fairfax County about your bus route we
> all go through such situations and they are
> ultimately resolved. My you were pampered weren't
> you?
>
> 3 strikes and you are OUT!

Hmm...I and others actually are living reality right now and did the same when Clifton Elementary was open. The facts associated with bus rides As stated by FCPS WERE WRONG. No bus at Clifton Elementary had a route that was longer than 35 minutes and many had routes as short as 20 so for FCPS to state an average in the mid to upper 30s is impossible. But then again if I believed everything that FCPS stated I could see your point. My point is THEY WERE WRONG and had no interest in hearing what reality was because it would detract from the objective of getting the school closed. My child used to have a 15 minute bus ride to a school within a couple of miles of my home. Now they have a 45 minute ride that even drives them past the entrance of Clifton Elementary some days depending on the traffic at other points on the route. Oh, and their new school is over a mile further away than Clifton Elementary was. Add to that the fact that no students attending Clifton Elementary had to even go through a traffic light on their routes and you can see the only impediments to travel would be the occasional cyclist on the two lane roads.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 08, 2012 07:06PM

Facts Check Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Justataxpayer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I missed one item and owned up to it. Much
> unlike
> > others I have encountered in the process.
> Dean,
> > Liz, Stu and the list goes on....
>
> Here is number #2.
>
> "A 60% occupied middle school when surrounding
> schools - Lake Braddock, Hayfield and Robinson
> could absorb the students makes more sense instead
> of spending precious construction funds
> elsewhere."
>
> Lake Braddock and Robinson dont have the room at
> the middle school level. Period. When your kids
> get to Robinson you will understand. We dont want
> more kids here.

See, if you had read my statements you would see that I was talking about FUTURE enrollment at the schools which is exactly what was used to close Clifton Elementary. And I take exception to your statements about Robinson as the 2 classes in the middle school there have about 100 or so fewer students or more than prior classes so there IS room and based on the stellar projections of FCPS the gap in enrollment and available space should only grow at all 3 schools over time. Not a wise use of funds to have all that available space now is it?

So I refute your rebuttal of this one. Still only off on 1 so far, and again I owned up to that one.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Simply incorrect ()
Date: January 08, 2012 07:45PM

According to this year's CIP Robinson is overcapacity, the number of students is recorded in the CIP for your FYI. Robinson has little room at this time for additional students look at the CIP #s.

Are you suggesting moving SCSS students to Hayfield? That isn't going to happen. Perhaps Clifton should be moved to SCSS since you claim the room is there. I am sure you will enjoy the school and its many offerings.
You have struck out.

Hate to say it by I am bored by your amateur knowledge. This was fun but really you need a life.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: completely incorrect ()
Date: January 08, 2012 10:36PM

No former Clifton student is on a bus anywhere near 1 hour. That is complete bullshit. 35-40 minutes max.

The only bus runs that can be 1 hour (or more) are GT, magnet or TJHSST. But of course those are voluntary.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 08, 2012 11:16PM

completely incorrect Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No former Clifton student is on a bus anywhere
> near 1 hour. That is complete bullshit. 35-40
> minutes max.
>
> The only bus runs that can be 1 hour (or more) are
> GT, magnet or TJHSST. But of course those are
> voluntary.

Don't tell that to any Fairview parents then. They have lived it and last I checked this was not an AAP transport item for children to attend Fairview. Buses double-back now on some of the routes and that has caused the bus travel times in some cases to extend to an hour. Things are marginally better following some adjustments made over 3 months after school started. Had anyone actually looked at what possible future bus routes would have been like and shared the actual data vs the BS we saw in the SW boundary process pehaps the light would have turned on somewhere and the students impacted would have had a MUCH smoother start to the school year. It was way too obvious that transportation had not planned out the routes very well prior to the start of this school year given the experiences of many at Fairview.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Justataxpayer ()
Date: January 08, 2012 11:25PM

Simply incorrect Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to this year's CIP Robinson is
> overcapacity, the number of students is recorded
> in the CIP for your FYI. Robinson has little room
> at this time for additional students look at the
> CIP #s.
>
> Are you suggesting moving SCSS students to
> Hayfield? That isn't going to happen. Perhaps
> Clifton should be moved to SCSS since you claim
> the room is there. I am sure you will enjoy the
> school and its many offerings.
> You have struck out.
>
> Hate to say it by I am bored by your amateur
> knowledge. This was fun but really you need a
> life.

Why yes, I am suggesting that some South County students could in fact attend Hayfield again as they once did prior to SC opening. Hayfield is a nice facility following its renovations. Why could that not happen? Please explain why areas that once were in the Hayfield attendance area could not return?

And if you would actually read my post and comprehend it you would see that I have said surrounding schools could take on the SC Middle School population given FUTURE enrollment projections in that area. Any school projected to be at 60% capacity in 5 years should be reviewed for potential closure if surrounding facilities can absorb the populations.

Also, for those in SC, you could have taken the $10M addition option to modify SC to be a real secondary school but you would have none of that. You had to spend 3X that to get a middle school. And you people call Clifton folks entitled. Look in a mirror!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: factchecker ()
Date: January 09, 2012 08:12AM

ABSOLUTELY on the bus for more than one hour- clifton school students- I have four students and two are on the bus for more than one hour- to Rocky Run (last stop always) and even Robinson take more than one hour becuase last stop, do you even hear yourself, I am driving them all now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Simply incorrect ()
Date: January 09, 2012 08:13AM

To Justataxpayor

No MS in the surrounding area will be at 60% capacity, again with your ? incorrect statements. Who are you, Schultz?

Your suggestions are humorous and self centered. No one from the SC area which includes Mason Neck, Lorton and Fairfax Station is going to go back to Hayfield due to pop., distance and the fact that there are capacity problems at West Potomac, Sandburg and Whitman, to include also West Springfield, Robinson, and others which have a trickled down effect.

Per your STORY of an addition --- SC was not built to be a seondary school. In fact when built the county told the public they were not going to build any more secondary schools. They are too big and not optimal. The seats for a middle school are needed, not just for geneeral ed pop but for special ed. Funny, you don't seem to be too upset about Robinson and the distance to that school????

When you end your comments I note you end with a cutting remark. The community of the south county worked hard, knew how to lobby and made their issue resonate with the decision makers. You did none of that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: caught you! ()
Date: January 09, 2012 08:15AM

Hey Factchecker--

If you are going to Rocky Run then you are going to the GT school!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Longer bus times ()
Date: January 09, 2012 08:42AM

My child also is on the bus longer. I don't know why you will not believe this is a true statement. FCPS did no studies before they closed CES on transportion. Piss poor planning. Dean Tisdadt should be fired.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: fos ()
Date: January 09, 2012 09:59AM

caught you! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Factchecker--
>
> If you are going to Rocky Run then you are going
> to the GT school!

Yeah, and Rocky Run is a middle school, so this has nothing to do Clifton Elementary.

On the miniscule chance that your RR GT students get into TJ, you ain't seen nuthin yet. They ride two different buses to get to TJ.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: the Taxpayer ()
Date: January 09, 2012 12:35PM

fos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> On the miniscule chance that your RR GT students
> get into TJ, you ain't seen nuthin yet. They ride
> two different buses to get to TJ.


But somehow that would be different.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: Facts Check ()
Date: January 09, 2012 01:16PM

Justataxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Facts Check Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Justataxpayer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I missed one item and owned up to it. Much
> > unlike
> > > others I have encountered in the process.
> > Dean,
> > > Liz, Stu and the list goes on....
> >
> > Here is number #2.
> >
> > "A 60% occupied middle school when surrounding
> > schools - Lake Braddock, Hayfield and Robinson
> > could absorb the students makes more sense
> instead
> > of spending precious construction funds
> > elsewhere."
> >
> > Lake Braddock and Robinson dont have the room
> at
> > the middle school level. Period. When your
> kids
> > get to Robinson you will understand. We dont
> want
> > more kids here.
>
> See, if you had read my statements you would see
> that I was talking about FUTURE enrollment at the
> schools which is exactly what was used to close
> Clifton Elementary. And I take exception to your
> statements about Robinson as the 2 classes in the
> middle school there have about 100 or so fewer
> students or more than prior classes so there IS
> room and based on the stellar projections of FCPS
> the gap in enrollment and available space should
> only grow at all 3 schools over time. Not a wise
> use of funds to have all that available space now
> is it?
>
> So I refute your rebuttal of this one. Still only
> off on 1 so far, and again I owned up to that one.


Still 2 off. You contradict yourself my mentioning future projections and then sarcastically mentioning FCPS stellar projections.

Again, come to Robinson and look around. I know you are talking about future projections. There isn't room at Robinson and Braddock. Only Hayfield.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: How crowded is Robinson? ()
Date: January 09, 2012 02:58PM

Is Robinson at max? How is the middle school? Thanks!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: CLIFTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Posted by: at max ()
Date: January 09, 2012 03:17PM

Robinson is at max:

Current Enrollment
2719 HS
1142 MS

Building Capacity
2561 HS
1054 MS

Resource:2013 - 2017 CIP

Options: ReplyQuote
Pages: Previous123456AllNext
Current Page: 3 of 6


Your Name: 
Your Email (Optional): 
Subject: 
Attach a file
  • No file can be larger than 75 MB
  • All files together cannot be larger than 300 MB
  • 30 more file(s) can be attached to this message
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
  *******   **     **  **     **  **     **  **     ** 
 **     **  **     **  **     **  **     **   **   **  
        **  **     **  **     **  **     **    ** **   
  *******   *********  **     **  **     **     ***    
        **  **     **  **     **   **   **     ** **   
 **     **  **     **  **     **    ** **     **   **  
  *******   **     **   *******      ***     **     ** 
This forum powered by Phorum.