SLVerity - are you done?

I'd be angry too if my children went to SL. No one , except for maybe you and the other two SL parents on here wants their children going to SL. Are you three of the twenty or so that will actually get an IB diploma?

If IB is so great, SL would be turning students away. Not the case now is it?

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> word Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > I have not see a Fox Mill poll to date.
>
> don't think there is one. Many of the people at
> Fox Mill are convinced that everything has already
> been settled and they are going to SLHS. So maybe
> if all are fine with that, there need be no poll.

Most Fox Mill parents are NOT fine with going to SLHS. We aren't dense, we get the overcrowded/underenrolled thing, and true SL is closer, but that doesn't mean we're all happy to be moved. Most of us would much rather stay with Oakton, especially the more we learn about IB. For those of us with students already at Oakton (but not old enough to be automatically allowed to stay), this is a very important issue. As many people have already stated, no one likes being jerked around. I think you will see many Fox Mill parents at the boundary meetings.

spanky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd be angry too if my children went to SL. No
> one , except for maybe you and the other two SL
> parents on here wants their children going to SL.
> Are you three of the twenty or so that will
> actually get an IB diploma?
>
> If IB is so great, SL would be turning students
> away. Not the case now is it?

Actually, there were at least 59 Diploma candidates last year, and around 80 are in line for this year. At least get the facts straight before you speak. If you had been reading this thread you would know that I was happy with South Lakes. My kids, who both did the IB diploma, have graduated and they attend UVa, and all without an expensive private school tuition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 10:09AM by SLVerity.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity - are you done?

Actually, I'm like the energizer bunny. I can keep going and going.

I'm thinking more like you're the Wack-a-Mole

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry, but IB is not 'basically the same as AP".
>
> > It simply isn't. If it were, the top private
> and
> > public schools would have IB. They don't.
>
> Can you explain George Mason in Falls Church and
> Robinson in Fairfax, both considered top schools
> and both having IB. Yes I know Robinson has AP
> too, but Mason is strictly IB. How about Trinity
> Episcopal in Richmond, a private prep school.
>
> I've stated this before and have been ignored.
> Are these facts not convenient to your argument?


From what I've learned, IB has its good points. However, it is very writing intensive and doesn't offer as much advanced math. Nothing wrong with learning to write and think critically, but if students are really looking for advanced math, AP schools usually have more to offer.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm thinking more like you're the Wack-a-Mole

Whatever it takes.

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neen Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sorry, but IB is not 'basically the same as
> AP".
> >
> > > It simply isn't. If it were, the top private
> > and
> > > public schools would have IB. They don't.
> >
> > Can you explain George Mason in Falls Church
> and
> > Robinson in Fairfax, both considered top
> schools
> > and both having IB. Yes I know Robinson has AP
> > too, but Mason is strictly IB. How about
> Trinity
> > Episcopal in Richmond, a private prep school.
> >
> > I've stated this before and have been ignored.
> > Are these facts not convenient to your
> argument?
>
>
> From what I've learned, IB has its good points.
> However, it is very writing intensive and doesn't
> offer as much advanced math. Nothing wrong with
> learning to write and think critically, but if
> students are really looking for advanced math, AP
> schools usually have more to offer.

Then I think the advanced math would be offered at SL to accomodate incoming students, if they are indeed capable and in line to take higher math than is offered through IB. The beauty of the writing. My kids whip out 12 page papers in college like it's nothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 10:19AM by SLVerity.

SL Verde,
Oh I did check the FCPS web site. 21 IB diplomas awarded in 05-06. WOW! 21 out of roughly 1400 students. That's an overwhelming success rate. A success rate I didn't want my children being part of. So what is the problem - the students or the teachers?

Glad your children are doing well at UVA.

South Lakes Pyramid parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cricket--I do get what you are saying. I feel for
> you that you have to go through this again and
> again. I don't feel at all elated that I have to
> worry about this, on top of the everyday worries
> about my kids, job, etc. That is more than
> enough. I don't like this at all.
>
> But, you let all your frustrations at the school
> board out on South Lakes, like this is somehow our
> fault, like we alone created this situation. You
> all continually trash our school to get people
> riled up for your own political and PR purposes.
> You gather other schools against South Lakes,
> because that meets your politicaly purpose. Why
> do you care about Herndon, who actually has some
> Reston schools? You do only inasmuch as they are
> a political ally. You'd be happy to throw them
> under the bus if it meets your goals later. You
> are a phony to pretend you care about anyone but
> yourself.
>
> We are frustrated at the school board too, but we
> are also mad that this is how you treat us. We
> all just want good schools for our kids. We've
> been attempting to find solutions that will work,
> that's all.
>
> And I don't see any conflict with liking the
> diversity that we have at South Lakes and yet not
> wanting another underperforming school. I don't
> believe that underprivileged population should be
> overrepresented at any school. Maybe that's not
> black and white enough for you, but it is possible
> to have both viewpoints.


Really...I have never once said anything bad about SL. And you are right, I only give a hoot about my family and my community. Never once been phony about that. And when WE (those of us outside SL) attempt to find solutions that will work, all WE ever get get back from you is one viewpoint: "whoa is SL" "we are just trying to make happy-happy" "None of this is our fault" "Stop treating us so bad" "your self-centered" "bunch of trash-talking-for-political-gain-racists-who-hate-SL-and-take-out-all-our-anger-on-SL-and-whine, whine, whine." Hold the mirror up. Why do care so much about McNair? Why do you care so much about Herndon? Oh that's right, all you care about is SL. You are no different than we.

spanky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SL Verde,
> Oh I did check the FCPS web site. 21 IB diplomas
> awarded in 05-06. WOW! 21 out of roughly 1400
> students. That's an overwhelming success rate. A
> success rate I didn't want my children being part
> of. So what is the problem - the students or the
> teachers?
>
> Glad your children are doing well at UVA.

Last year was 06/07 Spanky, which coincides with a new principal and new attitude in the school.

And while the IB students churn out 12 page plagiarized critical thinking papers in college, high school seniors rank dead last among the developed countries of the world in math and science.

How sweet is that?

Calling BS on the new principal in 06-07. He's been there longer than that, and you know it. New lower standards, perhaps? It's a miracle that we've gone from 20 to 80 IB diplomas!!! See how much better we are??

I stopped by SL the other day unannounced just to see how my tax dollars are hard at work. What's up with the two seating areas for the cafeteria? Is that their idea of promoting diversity? It was mid morning and there was a group of about 40 unruly students sitting in one of the seating areas watching a video tape of a football game. Too bad Prep doesn't have classes like that!

Honestly, who do these SL parents think they're fooling? Not many (I hope).

where the hell did that come from? no one is plagerizing. i currently have not started a 10 page paper that is due on monday at my top 30 school and im not worried about it at all. ill let you know when i get my a.

>
> And I don't see any conflict with liking the
> diversity that we have at South Lakes and yet not
> wanting another underperforming school. I don't
> believe that underprivileged population should be
> overrepresented at any school. Maybe that's not
> black and white enough for you, but it is possible
> to have both viewpoints.

Also,
You think parents from McNair are not qualified to post to this board? You have never recognized their veiwpoint. Or the viewpoint of the Hispanic population at Herndon or Chantilly? Or the underpriviledged communities at all the other high schools. You act as if they are not engaged that this board is a fortress.

You are right. There are 2 viewpoints. You have chosen one.

OK then. Maybe you should start plagerizing (sic) so you could at least spell correctly at your top 30 school. Please tell us you are an IB diploma recipient from SLHS. BWAHAHAHAHA!

Anyway, you schmucks have a nice weekend and keep posting on the board among the 3 of you how great SL is. Sooner or later one of you will actually believe it.

Understand that the level of diversity at South Lakes has been achieved by the disappering white population.
Attachments:

spanky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK then. Maybe you should start plagerizing (sic)
> so you could at least spell correctly at your top
> 30 school. Please tell us you are an IB diploma
> recipient from SLHS. BWAHAHAHAHA!
>
> Anyway, you schmucks have a nice weekend and keep
> posting on the board among the 3 of you how great
> SL is. Sooner or later one of you will actually
> believe it.

a. how mature of you

b. you still make no sense

Wow. What happened after 2001?

Responding to SLverity, etc...

Parents of kids from other schools are going to have a different perspective on this than parents of kids from South Lakes...they're not wrong to have that perspective. You don't have to agree, but you should understand what they are saying.

Relatively few people want to move their kids to new high schools even in the best of circumstances...kids at that age are very friend-oriented and activity-oriented, all centered around school, and are trying to do the best they can to be ready for college. While this is less of an issue if grandfathering happens, that's not a given, and it can lead to siblings being spilt, again not ideal. Even if the change is to a better school (better programs, better teachers, better location), a lot of people are concerned about change, and not because they are not "can-do" or luddites. Peopel at South Lakes don't have to change schools, so don't see this the same way.

In this case, the move would be to a school that is, arguably, "not as good as" the ones students are at. (Please no flames, don't shoot the messenger. My kids went to Lake Anne schools in the Spanish immersion program, so I have some understanding of different types of schools, and even Reston schools.) We know that there is no way to judge achools "correctly", that school performance is driven by the students and their background, that kids can do well in a variety of schools. That said, people who are looking at where to live to see what public high school is available will see that South Lakes "is not as good as" other schools when measured by criteria like test scores, dropout rate, etc. That's the perception. It could be wrong. It could be out of date. They could be failing to normalize for people from disadvantaged circumstances. But that IS the perception, and opinions of others need to be considered.

Nobody is (or should be...) saying that South Lakes is a bad school...it's arguably a great school and improving...but the objective comparisons against neighboring schools come up short. Again, South Lakes people don't have to deal with this. Imagine how you would feel if you were told your kids have to move, and to a school with lower objective comparison results. Would you be leading the can-do movement in favor of the change?

And in this case, the last straw is that the move appears to be motivated by reasons other than necessity or the best interest of the students being moved. The overenrollements are not a must-fix problem. The South Lakes underutilization is not a must-fix problem. It appears from the outside that any students being asked to move are simply to improve the demographics and performance of South Lakes, which again is a much better deal for people at South Lakes than the people being asked to move.

I do understand the glass half full message for South Lakes people...the improvement to South Lakes could in time remove some of the objective performance differential between the schools, and even if it doesn't, students transferring in will still receive a fine education as have countless others. Nobody is saying they won't...but they are already receiving a fine education, so they are not gaining anything here from the move.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hmmm07 Wrote:
>
> >
> > How is putting a great magnet school program
> into
> > South Lakes throwing it under the bus?
>
> Because its better for the community if we are
> pulling students from a permanent cohesive
> boundary. They and their families will be more
> invested in the school. Period. Get it?


They won't be invested in the school if they don't want to be there.

Oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Responding to SLverity, etc...
>
> Parents of kids from other schools are going to
> have a different perspective on this than parents
> of kids from South Lakes...they're not wrong to
> have that perspective. You don't have to agree,
> but you should understand what they are saying.
>
> Relatively few people want to move their kids to
> new high schools even in the best of
> circumstances...kids at that age are very
> friend-oriented and activity-oriented, all
> centered around school, and are trying to do the
> best they can to be ready for college. While this
> is less of an issue if grandfathering happens,
> that's not a given, and it can lead to siblings
> being spilt, again not ideal. Even if the change
> is to a better school (better programs, better
> teachers, better location), a lot of people are
> concerned about change, and not because they are
> not "can-do" or luddites. Peopel at South Lakes
> don't have to change schools, so don't see this
> the same way.
>
> In this case, the move would be to a school that
> is, arguably, "not as good as" the ones students
> are at. (Please no flames, don't shoot the
> messenger. My kids went to Lake Anne schools in
> the Spanish immersion program, so I have some
> understanding of different types of schools, and
> even Reston schools.) We know that there is no
> way to judge achools "correctly", that school
> performance is driven by the students and their
> background, that kids can do well in a variety of
> schools. That said, people who are looking at
> where to live to see what public high school is
> available will see that South Lakes "is not as
> good as" other schools when measured by criteria
> like test scores, dropout rate, etc. That's the
> perception. It could be wrong. It could be out
> of date. They could be failing to normalize for
> people from disadvantaged circumstances. But that
> IS the perception, and opinions of others need to
> be considered.
>
> Nobody is (or should be...) saying that South
> Lakes is a bad school...it's arguably a great
> school and improving...but the objective
> comparisons against neighboring schools come up
> short. Again, South Lakes people don't have to
> deal with this. Imagine how you would feel if you
> were told your kids have to move, and to a school
> with lower objective comparison results. Would
> you be leading the can-do movement in favor of the
> change?
>
> And in this case, the last straw is that the move
> appears to be motivated by reasons other than
> necessity or the best interest of the students
> being moved. The overenrollements are not a
> must-fix problem. The South Lakes
> underutilization is not a must-fix problem. It
> appears from the outside that any students being
> asked to move are simply to improve the
> demographics and performance of South Lakes, which
> again is a much better deal for people at South
> Lakes than the people being asked to move.
>
>

Thank you for your thoughtful response. The only thing I would add is that an influx of students from involved families would improve the demographics at the school to the point that it would be no different from surrounding ones. The surrounding schools have benefited from having a larger share of students from higher socio-economic levels.

I do understand the glass half full message for
> South Lakes people...the improvement to South
> Lakes could in time remove some of the objective
> performance differential between the schools, and
> even if it doesn't, students transferring in will
> still receive a fine education as have countless
> others. Nobody is saying they won't...but they
> are already receiving a fine education, so they
> are not gaining anything here from the move.

I would just like people to recognize that they might actually gain something. For example, a student from a large school like Westfield is competing with their peers for relatively few spots at State universities. For them, there may be an advantage to enrolling in a smaller school.

South Lakes truly is a good school. Our saying that does not take away from the 'goodness' of other schools. This is not a zero sum game.

Again, thanks for the very thoughtful post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 03:15PM by SLVerity.

Oakton Parent,
According to Bruce Butler, there IS a problem providing all of the courses and activities in demand at South Lakes. According to him, South Lakes is often teetering on the line to be able to keep full time teachers and critical courses because of the underenrollment, and numbers are threatening to go down further. So many see this as a "must fix" problem.

And many parents from Oakton that I've heard DO complain about the distance. That might not be a compelling reason for you, but it perhaps is for others.

Of couse no one likes redistricting. But South Lakes has suffered from past redistricting, and all we are asking for is to be treated fairly and not expected to "fix our own problem". It's not just ours, but Fairfax County's problem. That obviously is not your perspective, but the school board is obligated to take care of ALL of its schools.

And seriously, "nobody is saying they won't" --have you even read this board? There are countless examples of people saying they won't. All for their own political purposes of convincing those that might be open to the idea of South Lakes that it would be a terrible idea and they should fear for their children and they are not good parents if they let their kids go to South Lakes.

That's what I see is unfair.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 01:06PM by South Lakes Pyramid parent.

I have also seen the fear-mongering on this board, and it is not worthy of this discussion. What I can't recall is anyone from SL criticizing other schools.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 01:11PM by SLVerity.

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > And I don't see any conflict with liking the
> > diversity that we have at South Lakes and yet
> not
> > wanting another underperforming school. I don't
> > believe that underprivileged population should
> be
> > overrepresented at any school. Maybe that's not
> > black and white enough for you, but it is
> possible
> > to have both viewpoints.
>
> Also,
> You think parents from McNair are not qualified to
> post to this board? You have never recognized
> their veiwpoint. Or the viewpoint of the Hispanic
> population at Herndon or Chantilly? Or the
> underpriviledged communities at all the other high
> schools. You act as if they are not engaged that
> this board is a fortress.
>
> You are right. There are 2 viewpoints. You have
> chosen one.

Cricket, am I wrong or haven't you been advocating moving McNair to SL? If I am wrong, I will stand corrected. Perhaps it was Neen or Word.

Sycamore Lakes WAS NEVER pulled from South Lakes!!! We were in the Oakton district and later moved in 2000 to Westfield. Get your story straight!

SLVerity Wrote:
>
> Cricket, am I wrong or haven't you been advocating
> moving McNair to SL? If I am wrong, I will stand
> corrected. Perhaps it was Neen or Word.


This is me:

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas More Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cricket Wrote:
> >
>
> Your effort is admirable and I don't discourage
> the research. However, I do caution you (and
> others) not to spend too much time sitting at the
> curb or doing "back of the napkin" enrollment
> calculations. What is McNair today, is not
> necessarily what will be McNair tomorrow. And
> because of this, it would be unwise for the
> communities surrounding McNair to let it go
> anywhere without a fight. These same communities
> will face yet another boundary study in 08-09 with
> the opening of Coppermine. The make up of all
> schools surrounding McNair (Hutchinson, Dogwood,
> Floris, Fox Mill) could change in a year. What
> looks ideal to some, today, may not be the same
> tomorrow. Not saying it will be any less ideal,
> just not the same. Communities on the Dulles side
> of Ffx. Pkwy. will not have their blinders on when
> it comes to McNair. A good position at the end of
> this study does not lead to stability for very
> long. It just never ends and this is one reason
> why many people in these communities are pissed
> off. You would think that the county would be
> wise and tackle this boundary at the same time,
> since there is so much at stake. But then again,
> that is too smart.

And this is me:
Cricket Wrote:
>
> Big Leap, by you. But no, I think that we ALL,
> including you, were trying to figure out where the
> 40% non-English speaking population at McNair
> lived.
>
> As a matter of fact, large apt. complexes, a few
> condo communities and a trailer park or two attend
> our high school. And, we are fighting to stay.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 01:45PM by Cricket.

ibnutz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow. What happened after 2001?

New principal - disaster.

Established population aging in place - the white kids graduated and mom and dad still live in the house.

Property values shoot through the roof preventing young families from affording the few houses that go on the market

Westfield Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sycamore Lakes WAS NEVER pulled from South
> Lakes!!! We were in the Oakton district and later
> moved in 2000 to Westfield. Get your story
> straight!

That's not what Stu Gibson said. If that was wrong I stand corrected. Forgive me, please.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 01:50PM by SLVerity.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ibnutz Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wow. What happened after 2001?
>
> New principal - disaster.
>

Clarification, new then, now gone principal. Thankfully!

Oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> the South Lakes underutilization is not a must-fix problem.

I deeply appreciate the maturity and civility with which your views are stated. If you've read any part of the thread you know that I am both a current and long suffering SL parent and not one who sees SL through rose colored glasses but I must ask you to at least consider that the underenrollment at SL is a must fix problem for my children.

The number of teachers assigned a school is the product of the number of kids in the school. There are other factors but it starts there.

With profound underenrollment, such as we have at South Lakes, they had to drop a significant number of classes, e.g. ASL as a language class, economics was dropped, Advanced accounting is a on-line course. Other parents can list other courses that Oakton has but our kids don't.

I also know that underenrollment is one reason that the kid with the reading problem was being remediated by a science teacher instead of a teacher certified in reading problems.

Getting SL up to full enrollment means 12 more teachers at SL and 72 more classes for our kids.

It also has a serious impact on the competiveness of our sports teams. The joke on many SL teams is that the essential skill one has to have to make a team at SL is:

a pulse and we can negotiate that.

SL has a magnet mr program. Kids come from all over western FFX to that program and I'm glad we can be the center even though it drags down some of SL's "objective criteria" and it helps to keep the numbers at these kids base high school higher than it might otherwise be.

The presence of that program also artificially inflates our enrollment. For practical purposes our enrollment is down to 1200 kids. All FFX schools are in class AAA. There 6-8 school in AA (the class that most Loudoun County schools and George Mason High School is in) that have more kids than SL. Paul Jensen, the about to be retired County wide DSA, refuses to move SL to AA. So our kids work hard but have no chance against teams in the Liberty District and the jerk DSA from Fairfax High school wants to move SL back into Concorde against Westfield with 3200 kids.

Change is hard and scary and there have been too many boundary changes in western ffx that have been uncoordinated. Cricket wants to postpone the SL boundary so that its done with the Coopermine boundary at the same time. Fine with me.

You want to send the Westfield part of McNair to SL. I think that's ok but I need more information before I make a final conclusion.

My first preference is Aldrin for the reasons stated too many times.

But leaving SL at 1200 main stream kids is cruel and not fair. It is a must fix.

More Later



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 02:17PM by Thomas More.

Spanker:

I have been trying to formulate an articulate response to such articulate points as Bwahhhah, etc., but I can't. If you want to spend a gazillion on private school because you can't find anything good in FCPS, please cc us when you are pissed off at the private schools for letting you down......it's inevitable.

Mi Padre - I think you must be a loooong-time advocate for the school.

Cricket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > And I don't see any conflict with liking the
> > diversity that we have at South Lakes and yet
> not
> > wanting another underperforming school. I don't
> > believe that underprivileged population should
> be
> > overrepresented at any school. Maybe that's not
> > black and white enough for you, but it is
> possible
> > to have both viewpoints.
>
> Also,
> You think parents from McNair are not qualified to
> post to this board? You have never recognized
> their veiwpoint. Or the viewpoint of the Hispanic
> population at Herndon or Chantilly? Or the
> underpriviledged communities at all the other high
> schools. You act as if they are not engaged that
> this board is a fortress.
>
> You are right. There are 2 viewpoints. You have
> chosen one.


Sorry, Cricket--not getting your point here. Do you know what the McNair viewpoint is? Or what the hispanic population at Herndon or Chantilly would say? I haven't seen anyone from there post...so not sure what you are getting at. I'd be more than willing to listen if they identified themselves as such and posted.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westfield Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sycamore Lakes WAS NEVER pulled from South
> > Lakes!!! We were in the Oakton district and
> later
> > moved in 2000 to Westfield. Get your story
> > straight!
>
> That's not what Stu Gibson said. If that was wrong
> I stand corrected. Forgive me, please.


This does not surprise me at all. Please consider the source. Stu Gibson doesn't even know the neighborhoods that he represents!! Sycamore Lakes has NEVER, EVER been a part of the South Lakes pyramid and I should know I have lived here since its inception 12 years ago. We bought our home in 1995 to be in the Oakton district and we were moved to Westfield in 2000. Our neighborhood has been subjected to his gross mismanagement for 12 years and has been involved in 5 boundary studies. He needs to go . . .

I'd like to see:

500 white, 300 black, 150 Hispanic, 200 Asian (Me digs Asian Women), 150 Amer. Indian, 10 Puerto ricans.

Now we're going to have to mix these up but best would be:

400 Christian(100 Catholic, 10 Presbyterian, 20 Baptist, rest misc.), 100 Jewish, 100 Islamic, 100 Mormon, 10 Wicians, 2 Atheists, 50 Buddhists, 4 Voodoo.

Male to female:
50/50, everybody should be able to have a prom date.

I hope this helps to resolve some issues.

Sexual orientation:
Straight\Bi(Women only)\Gay 50\45\5

Really! Some of you really need to re-evaluate your morals!
Attachments:

hmmm07 Wrote:
> How is putting a great magnet school program
> into South Lakes throwing it under the bus?

It's not throwing SL under the bus but a magnet doesn't address the fundamental unfairness of the current situation.

500-700 kids gets SL 12 more teachers. If those 12 new teachers are used to create the magnet program, (I doubt it can be done without having the exclusive use of all 12), the courses available for the 1200 main stream kids now at SL can't been expanded.

If kids from the general population can attend the "magnet" courses, is it then really a magnet school?

Will a magnet even work for only 500-700 kids?

Can the magnet population be intergrated into the general population or will they always be a separate sub-school of "suitcase" kids who go home every day at 2:10 rarely participating in extracurricular activities and never really become Sea Hawks?

It not about filling up a building for my kids, its about having the same panoply of academic opportunities at SL that kids at Oakton and Fairfax and Robinson enjoy.

Now, if we can just upgrade the instructional staff, you'd all be beating a path to our door.

More Later

The reason that so few kids receive an IB diploma is because the program is very hard. I’ve never taken AP courses so I can’t speak for the difficulty, but IB classes are very intense classes that require many hours of dedication. But it is worth it; from the IB graduates of 2007 we had kids at UVA, MIT, Princeton, W&M, BC, Georgetown, Hopkins, and other prestigious universities. I was at Penn this summer and they do give credits for IB courses, the same as they do for AP. The IB program is a relatively young program in the U.S. and is still growing.

>>>Nothing wrong with learning to write and think critically, but if students are really looking for advanced math, AP schools usually have more to offer.<<<

So students who might want careers in engineering, computer science, math, physics, bio-sciences, or medicine, would do better in an AP program which also teaches students to write (AP English and AP history require good writing) and to think (it's difficult to take college level AP courses and not think). In addition, students can earn many more credits for AP courses, which would greatly benefit low income students for whom money is a serious issue.

Like I said, IB and AP are not the same. IB is great for those intending to apply to college in France or England. For the rest of the students, AP is better.

SLVerity,
Do we know yet how many achieved the IB diploma this year? Not candidates, but actually got the diploma?

Making fun of someone for using the most recent data available, is, well, not very nice.

Word,
Thanks for posting the South Lakes chart. Very interesting! It's clearly white flight that has left SL's in the shape that it's in. Wasn't IB supposed to turn that around? It appears to have no impact on stopping White Flight. One has to wonder why nothing else was ever tried, like a magnet program within the school? That worked for several of the Montgomery County schools. Why not at our county's under enrolled high schools?

AT Montgomery Blair high school they have several magnet programs. Students most certainly are integrated into the school. They have something like 7 sub schools for various things, math and science being one, a mini TJ type program that often our scores TJ. They win more Intell awards that TJ too. They also have an excellent journalism program. Blair is a huge school, a school like South Lakes wouldn't need so many sub schools, perhaps only one or two, like a mini TJ program, with REAL math, science and engineering, or a real journalism program, or a selective IB program where ALL students are going for the diploma. There are so many things that could be done at South Lakes and our other under enrolled schools, if only our school board would allow them.

There are ways to attract students TO a school, as they've done in many other school districts, rather than simply forcing students into a school. That is the least attractive way to do it and the method least likely to be successful.

Neen,
I don't know many SL parents that want a magnet at their school, but you can bring it up at the meetings.

I have no intentions of applying to school in France or England…and I’m in the IB program. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only IB student in the country who plans on attended college in the U.S. I’m also considering chemical engineering…and I’m in the IB program. I’m not sure how high the AP curriculum goes but I know that IB has one step above Calculus. Calculus is called IB Math II SL (which includes but is not limited to what I think AP calls AB Calculus). However if you take Algebra I and Geometry before ninth grade then you take IB Higher Math senior year. However, if your child already knows in eighth grade that they want to go into a math heavy field then TJ is the best fit for them.

>>>Property values shoot through the roof preventing young families from affording the few houses that go on the market<<<

That happened county wide, not just in Reston. Yet other high schools did not have the drop in students that South Lakes has had. The only group that dropped in numbers were whites, with a rather steady decline. My opinion is a terrible principal helped feed that decline as did the IB program. Once white flight begins, it is very difficult to halt. Forcing more whites into the school is not the answer. Making South Lakes a better school, one that attracts more higher income families, is the answer.

Is there any other government monopoly service that forces people to use it when they don't want to, when they've actually chosen another?

Madison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason that so few kids receive an IB diploma
> is because the program is very hard. I’ve never
> taken AP courses so I can’t speak for the
> difficulty, but IB classes are very intense
> classes that require many hours of dedication.
> But it is worth it; from the IB graduates of 2007
> we had kids at UVA, MIT, Princeton, W&M, BC,
> Georgetown, Hopkins, and other prestigious
> universities. I was at Penn this summer and they
> do give credits for IB courses, the same as they
> do for AP. The IB program is a relatively young
> program in the U.S. and is still growing.

Agree with your points Madison.

While I'm not advocating one program over another, it is ridiculous to say that IB is only for those studying in Europe.

The description below is from the FCPS website - if it such a horrible program, why are they offering it at all and why are other school systems successful at it.

International Baccalaureate - The International Baccalaureate (IB) program provides a comprehensive rigorous education emphasizing analytical thinking, reading and writing skills with an international perspective. It is an advanced level college preparatory program open to highly motivated 11th and 12th grade students who seek academic rigor. A student can earn a full IB diploma by completing courses in 6 areas – English, foreign language, social studies, science, math, and elective. Beyond completing the course requirements, diploma students are required to engage in community service, individual research, and Theory of Knowledge class. Students may also choose to earn IB certificates for individual IB courses. All students enrolled in an IB course are required to take the end-of-course exam. Students must take the end-of-course exam to receive the .5 weighted grade. IB courses are recognized for college credit by many universities in the United States and abroad.

An accurate assessment isn't how many IB diplomas were awarded. More students take the classes than are awarded the diploma. And as one can see from the above description, the diploma consists of 6 courses plus TOK, comm service,and a 4000 word paper.

Students do receive college credit similarly to AP.

In addition, some students aren't as worried about testing out of college but actually getting into college. Both curricula are looking upon favorably for college acceptance.


Here are some numbers that I thought rather interesting. For the small population that TM laments (I do agree that they are underserved), as a whole, when they take IB, they are doing quite well. Look at the following participation and pass rates (1st # is participation rate, 2nd # is pass rate) of students in each curriculum.

A pass for AP is a 3+ while an IB pass is 4+.

Oakton
Asian 64% 76%
Black 30% 41%
Hisp 34% 57%
White 66% 77%
Other 67% 85%

South Lakes
Asian 46% 82%
Black 20% 67%
Hisp 21% 100%
White 58% 85%
Other 63% 69%


While Oakton has higher participation rates, SL students actually pass at a higher rate (except Other). IB has only been at SLHS since 2000 while AP has been at Oakton for much longer. Can't find the implementation date there but as I took AP over 25 years ago at Langley, we can assume it's been at Oakton for a couple decades as well.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's clearly white flight that has
> left SL's in the shape that it's in.

I know you're smarter than this and are just being imflamatory for your own entertainment.

In cities with "forced busing", white flight was a term to described falling numbers of white residents (not students) with a large influx of minority residents. It was characterized by blighted and abandoned neighborhoods and high rates of street crime.

Nothing like that has happened or is about to happen in Reston. Given the no growth, no business attitude of the Vienna Town Council and the relative age of the houses in the Town, you'll see blight and abandon neighborhoods in Vienna one or two decades before it ever happens in Reston. RA is very good about that and it has stronger enforcement tools on neglected homes than Vienna. RA has its problems too, but they don't let one absentee landlord in an SFD neighborhood drag down the whole block.

I've told you why the white population at SL has fallen. Rebut those explanations with facts but save the equine excrement for your party meetings.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 05:16PM by Thomas More.

Once the boundary meetings are underway it's too late to do a magnet, and there won't be a need for one, from there point of view. At that point they will be forcing people into South Lakes, they have no incentive to try to attract them to South Lakes.

Only if Christine and John are elected is there a chance to derail this and start over, perhaps with magnet programs.

Why don't South Lakes parents want a magnet to attract more high performing students? With redistricting South Lakes still won't get those kids. They won't go to South Lakes with a good reason. They have the brains, and the money, to go elsewhere. The parents can pupil place, send them to private school, or move. People don't like being forced to do things. They tend to resist, mightily. South Lakes will be very lucky if they get half of the students they redistrict. Which means another boundary change in a few years. If our current school board had the sense God gave a goose, they would have known that.

Last year, USA Today did a piece on AP and how in "recent years, a troubling pattern has emerged. Increasingly, admitted students who boast AP credits "really weren't in many ways ready for the rigor of our college curriculum," says Edith Waldstein, vice president for enrollment management."

Hmmm - didn't I mention that a few pages back....




http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-03-20-ap-main_x.htm


Here's an excerpt -

Focus on education, not a test

Counters Michael Kirst, a Stanford University professor of education, "We ought to work on (improving) the existing curriculum, not on funneling people into AP who aren't ready for it."

But the more AP becomes a tool to improve high school rigor, the less impressed college faculty seem to be with the credential.

"There is something about a good undergraduate general education that can't be easily replicated by a terrific high school course," says Bruce Johnstone, higher education professor at the University at Buffalo and former chair of the College Board trustees.

Even some students agree. "Even though the AP test provides some sort of standard, it doesn't necessarily ensure that students got a great perspective on these subjects," says MIT senior Christopher Suarez, 22. He says some AP courses prepared him for MIT but not all. "The focus is on the test and not necessarily on the fundamental knowledge of the material."


Hmmm, an MIT senior. He probably got his information from Stu - let's flame him!

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>Property values shoot through the roof
> preventing young families from affording the few
> houses that go on the market<<<
>
> That happened county wide, not just in Reston.

What other parts of the County saw a 400% increase the the price of starter homes?

What other part of the County has Reston's access to entry level jobs for college graduates in close proximity to a large stock of starter homes like the Dulles Corridor?

Only the Springfield corridor has as easy access to downtown DC comparable to Reston and it's not nearly as good as Reston's.

Reston is facing housing pressures no other part of the County is experiencing.

Remember the the schools around McLean went through a similar problem in the late 80's and early 90s right after the last housing boom. Thats when our pal Lou Zone partitioned Reston to take care of McLean and Marshall.

You're better than this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 05:11PM by Thomas More.

Thomas,
It won't happen in Vienna because all the small houses are being torn down and very attractive, old fashion looking, houses are being put in their place and selling for twice the price. Surely you've noticed this in Vienna Woods where little houses are being replaced by gorgeous new homes with big front porches and beautiful architectural details. Unfortunately for Reston, your HOA will not permit new, attractive homes, in place of small, unattractive homes. Surely you know that is one of Reston's biggest problems in attracting families, too many older homes of a style no one wants today that cannot be substantially altered. That's your HOA, something we are fortunate enough not to have in Vienna. In Vienna, the market is allowed to work, and it does.

I use the term White Flight for two reasons. First, look at the chart of enrollment decline at South Lakes. Whites left. The other groups remained relatively stable. Second, when IB was instituted, first at Stuart and Mount Vernon, Dr. Nancy Sprague, assistant superintendent in charge of instruction, said they were putting IB into schools with the hopes of stopping White Flight. They hoped that by giving White students a new, special, program, it would ease the fears of white parents sending their children to schools with high minority populations. That's just the facts, Thomas, whether you like them or not. If you would prefer to call it white leaving, rather than white flight, be my guest. Reminds me of what someone else here said.......about lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig. Whites are still leaving South Lakes. Euphemisms that your democratIC party insist on using don't change the reality.

I have no idea why you think any party had anything to do with this. They didn't, and they don't. It's the school system and Reston rules.

Are you saying that starter homes, which I assume you mean condos and townhouses, are more expensive in Reston than Vienna and McLean? That Reston is an easier commute to Tysons and downtown than Vienna and McLean.

You're smarter than this.

>>>if your child already knows in eighth grade that they want to go into a math heavy field then TJ is the best fit for them<<<

If only TJ could accommodate all those students who wanted a career in engineering, math, science, and medicine. If only our school board would allow more schools like TJ for those students who are willing to work that hard and want those courses. But they won't, because they care more about what staff wants than what children need.

>>>The reason that so few kids receive an IB diploma is because the program is very hard<<<

Yes, most students conclude that the pay off is not worth the price, particularly if they aren't going to college in Europe.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't South Lakes parents want a magnet to
> attract more high performing students?

Attracting high performing kids is Stu's priority and maybe Bruce's. It's definitely not mine. May be Stu and Bruce want them to cover-up a dysfunctional staff, who knows.

I'm happy with more kids. I'd like most of them to be kids who just want to go to college. SL doesn't need a bunch of Type A trophy kids whose parents spend all summer bragging about Wahoo or Haaavaad.

If getting rid of IB gets me that, I sign on to that in a minute. (No surprise, right.)

If McNair gets me that, and I suspect it will, I'll sign on for that.

But for God sakes can Bruce and Stu/Christine please pay attention to seriously upgrading the instructional staff.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:45PM by Thomas More.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Why don't South Lakes parents want a magnet to
> attract more high performing students?

As TM said, all people want is a regular community school that draws from our local community. Rectify what was dismantled by previous boards. Rebalance what was previously balanced.

> redistricting South Lakes still won't get those
> kids. They won't go to South Lakes with a good
> reason. They have the brains, and the money, to
> go elsewhere. The parents can pupil place, send
> them to private school, or move.

People may pupil place or even choose private, initially, but the travel costs/hassles and tuition costs will prove a barrier to many. Eventually others will acquiese especially once they see their neighbors kids go and happily adjust. It's happened time and time again. The kids are fine - it's the parents that have the issues.

They won't move - good luck selling your house in this market!

> like being forced to do things. They tend to
> resist, mightily. South Lakes will be very lucky
> if they get half of the students they redistrict.
> Which means another boundary change in a few
> years. If our current school board had the sense
> God gave a goose, they would have known that.

We've spoken to the school board staff since they've been through this before. They say its always contentious yet it always works out in the end. The most recent nearby redistricting was for Colvin Run elementary. GF parents were in an uproar over moving into a beautiful new elementary school OUT OF dumpy Great Falls elementary. There were articles in the paper, everyone was trying to sue the county - Now all is well...

What IB graduates do you know that went to a university abroad? None of the colleges I listed before are outside the U.S. My friends who aren’t doing the Diploma program are doing so because they don’t want to do the CAS hours, the Extended Essay or TOK. I never meet anyone who said, “I have the time to do IB, but I really want to go to a good school in the U.S. I mean with an IB diploma you can only get into, like, Princeton.”

Can someone tell me what this means...

> Rectify what was dismantled by previous boards. Rebalance what was previously balanced.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> It won't happen in Vienna because all the small
> houses are being torn down and very attractive,
> old fashion looking, houses are being put in their
> place and selling for twice the price.

It's not happening everywhere in Vienna and the Yeonas built ranches have not appreciated 400% in the last few years.


> Unfortunately for Reston, your HOA will
> not permit new, attractive homes, in place of
> small, unattractive homes.

When a developer wants to redevelop an entire one of Reston's neighborhoods, we'll find out if you hypothesis applies. Right now the prices of existing houses are too high and the zoning densities too low for that too happen.

The Vienna Town Council lets the market work? You can't be serious. They have the worst anti-growth, anti-business reputation is Northern Virgina. Only Lederer in the City of Fairfax is worse.

> I use the term White Flight for two reasons.
> First, look at the chart of enrollment decline at
> South Lakes. Whites left.

Whites families didn't leave. The kid graduated. Mom and Dad only had 1 kid (ZPG) and Mom and Dad are still living here.

Did the Capaldos leave to get way from Railly, that was one reason, the spoiled brat across the street was another. Did the Adkins move to get their younger son away from a baseball coach who abused their older, high performing son. Yup. [When are Bruce and Linda going to upgrade that sorry situation? We're waiting.]

Are there 700 of these kinds of stories? Don't think so.

> The other groups
> remained relatively stable.

Thus no massive influx of minorities as was seen in cities that actually experience "white flight."

> Second, when IB was
> instituted, first at Stuart and Mount Vernon, Dr.
> Nancy Sprague, assistant superintendent in charge
> of instruction,

Like she knows what she's talking about? She got a PhD in education, like that requires some intellectual heavy lifting. Her PhD isn't in urban affairs, urban planning or demographics. How ignorant and reckless of her.

> If you would
> prefer to call it white leaving, rather than white
> flight, be my guest.

I'd rather call it what it is: empty nest syndrome enhance by a very attractive community for a maturing affluent population that looks to be retiring in place instead of migrating to Arizona or Florida.

The quality of your analysis can be much higher and less ideological. I know it can. You know I don't pretend that either Reston or SL is perfect. We can have better exchanges than this.

thanks for using the proper adjectival form of that party's name.;-)

More Later

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you saying that starter homes, which I assume
> you mean condos and townhouses, are more expensive
> in Reston than Vienna and McLean?

I meant townhouses and small singles that families used to move into in Reston 20 years ago and McLean 40 years ago. Not condos. How many young families of modest means have moved into McLean at any time in the last 30 years?

> That Reston is
> an easier commute to Tysons and downtown than
> Vienna and McLean.

Getting to the clubs downtown on Saturday night, yeah it is.

> You're smarter than this.

No really that as good as I get.

All of this talk about a magnet school is a waste of time. There are currently only 373 open seats betweeen all of the schools in the boundary study, accounting for the extra room at South Lakes and the overages at Chantilly and Westfield. That's not much room for a magnet school. Redistricting will either happen or not. Election outcomes influence this greatly.

All of this talk about IB/AP is pointless. They're both good. If South Lakes does not implement AP, pupil placement is an option that will be exercised and this will defeat the purpose of redistricting. It's that simple.

Vienna is very nice!

>>>>The number of teachers assigned a school is the product of the number of kids in the school. There are other factors but it starts there.

With profound underenrollment, such as we have at South Lakes, they had to drop a significant number of classes, e.g. ASL as a language class, economics was dropped, Advanced accounting is a on-line course. Other parents can list other courses that Oakton has but our kids don't.

I also know that underenrollment is one reason that the kid with the reading problem was being remediated by a science teacher instead of a teacher certified in reading problems.<<<

All of that could be changed. Stu could get extra money for South Lakes so that they could have more teachers and more classes. I'm sure that voters would find that preferable to redistricting. Every class at South Lakes could have 20 students, or even fewer. That's up to the school board to allocate funds. Small schools can have some real advantages, depending on who is representing their needs.

You really think anyone not involved would actually vote for that? They wouldn't even vote to increase the sales tax by a half a cent so we could get some potholes fixed.

>>>How many young families of modest means have moved into McLean at any time in the last 30 years?<<<

You might be surprised. Asians are now occupying the smaller houses in McLean and Vienna. They are also renting apartments in McLean. Why? The schools. Asians move into neighborhoods with good schools. They will live in small house, or an apartment, if that's what they have to do to get into Langley school district. I know several Asian families who own homes in Maryland but rent apartments in McLean so that their kids go to Longfellow GT and (they hope) to TJ.

Nobody has to vote for more money for South Lakes. The FCPS budget is HUGE, large enough to send a few more bucks to South Lakes. OR, they could even cut the administration which out numbers teachers 2 to 1.

I agree, no one votes to raise their own taxes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:00PM by Neen.

Word is correct. Vienna is very nice. He's also correct when he says that IB and AP don't matter because the school board as it is now constituted, will do whatever they want to do. Only the election can change that. This current school board couldn't care less what the people want in their schools.

Why would people retire in place in Reston, but no place else in the county? They wouldn't. That's not the reason why your schools are under enrolled. They're under enrolled because Reston has decided to be a place for singles, and low income housing. Cathy Hudgins has worked very hard, along with Connelly, to put more and more low incoming housing (oops, I forget to use her word for it, 'affordable housing') into Reston. I can only assume that is what Restonians want, or they wouldn't vote for Cathy and Connelly in overwhelming numbers. Reston association has done nothing to attract families to Reston. That's why families aren't there!

Liberals in Reston want more and more low incoming housing, more and more condos and townhouses, and they don't want any new single family homes built. Then whine when school populations drop,'diversity' increases to the point where families don't want to move there. You can't have it both ways. You can't force people to go to school there just because Reston has decided to become a haven for low income people and singles, without family friendly homes. People in Reston CHOSE that. People outside of Reston did not. Restonians can't expect the rest of the county to support their choices by sending their kids to Reston schools to fill up the under enrollment CAUSED by Reston policies.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>Nobody has to vote for more money for South Lakes. The FCPS budget is HUGE, >large enough to send a few more bucks to South Lakes. OR, they could even cut >the administration which out numbers teachers 2 to 1.


>I agree, no one votes to raise their own taxes.>

>Word is correct. Vienna is very nice. He's also
> correct when he says that IB and AP don't matter
> because the school board as it is now constituted,
> will do whatever they want to do. Only the
> election can change that. This current school
> board couldn't care less what the people want in
> their schools.


Neen, I mean Christine, what worries me about your campaign and you possibly being elected is that you seem very naive about school funding. The school board should just throw some extra funds to SLHS? Do you really believe you can cut admin to throw SL a "bone?" Please give us a little more credit...

And you're going to come in with your pearls and fix all that's wrong with FCPS.

I know stoprd believes that you care about them but you too have an underlying agenda.

Admit who you really are...

Thomas,
The exact same thing happens in Vienna, most people here age in place. My street has houses that are 35 years old and at least half are original owners. That same thing is true all over Vienna and McLean and Oakton. The entire county is aging. The difference is, Reston doesn't attract any new families, as other areas do, because Reston won't allow new single family homes to be built, nor will they allow substantial changes to the single family homes that exist. Families today do not want to live in 1960's style houses. Reston has supported LOTS of growth in condos, apartments, and townhouses, none of which provide more students. Reston CHOSE to go with more single people, fewer families. You got what you voted for. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't expect other people, outside Reston to pay for choices that they never made.

Got your number Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Admit who you really are...

wrong again and not even a good guess

I'm pretty sure I know who Neen is, and it's not Christine....

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Vienna is very nice!

I'm sure you'd also say so is Reston, its different from Vienna but its nice. only Neen wants to argue this which is a waste of time.

Sorry guy, I am most definitely not Christine. I would never choose to live in Reston. She did.

Ask Thomas if I am Christine. Or anyone else. It's quite obvious to all, but you, that I am not.

I have no under lying agenda, other than I care about kids. I live in Vienna. I CHOSE to live in Vienna, not Reston.

If you think that Stu Gibson is going to do anything for Reston that he hasn't had time to do in the last 12 years, please vote for him. If you think that someone else, someone not wedded to the system, and the continuation of the status quo, might do something to help South Lakes and the other schools in REston with abysmal scores, I suggest that you not vote for him. Since he's never done a thing for Vienna schools, and has ignored the wishes of the voters in Vienna for TWELVE years, I intend to vote for Christine. But that does NOT make me Christine. See the difference Slick?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:28PM by Neen.

Thanks South Lakes Pyramid Parent.

BTW, how do you know who I am? Heck, I'm not even sure who I am most days, other than not Christine.

Disregard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:43PM by SLVerity.

I'm not arguing that anyplace is 'nicer' than any other place. I'm arguing for choice. I happen to think it's a good thing to have choices and to exercise choices and not be forced by the government to accept choices we did not make.

It wasn't my chart. Yes, Asian population has gone up about 100 students in the last 15 years. I suspect the same is true in every high school in the county, with the percentage increasing even more at TJ (prior to affirmative action) and Langley, McLean, Oakton, etc.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would people retire in place in Reston, but no
> place else in the county? They wouldn't. That's
> not the reason why your schools are under
> enrolled. They're under enrolled because Reston
> has decided to be a place for singles, and low
> income housing. Cathy Hudgins has worked very
> hard, along with Connelly, to put more and more
> low incoming housing (oops, I forget to use her
> word for it, 'affordable housing') into Reston. I
> can only assume that is what Restonians want, or
> they wouldn't vote for Cathy and Connelly in
> overwhelming numbers. Reston association has done
> nothing to attract families to Reston. That's why
> families aren't there!

I guess that's why we have around 20 swimming pools, numerous tennis courts, nature trails, nature tots, extensive summer camp programs, etc. Note that the school board moved North Point to Herndon. That is the problem with our school and Herndon has benefited.

>
> Liberals in Reston want more and more low incoming
> housing, more and more condos and townhouses, and
> they don't want any new single family homes built.
> Then whine when school populations
> drop,'diversity' increases to the point where
> families don't want to move there. You can't have
> it both ways. You can't force people to go to
> school there just because Reston has decided to
> become a haven for low income people and singles,
> without family friendly homes. People in Reston
> CHOSE that. People outside of Reston did not.
> Restonians can't expect the rest of the county to
> support their choices by sending their kids to
> Reston schools to fill up the under enrollment
> CAUSED by Reston policies.

As stated many times before, we are not a town and we don't get a vote on housing decisions made by the board of supervisors. I am a conservative and have to live with the messes that do-gooders create. How many liberals are on the school board and BOS vs. conservatives? This county has trended liberal, not just Reston, and Gerry Connelly has backed up Hudgins all the way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:44PM by SLVerity.

>>>Admit who you really are...<<<

Sure thing, you go first. Hahahaha.......how many different names have you had on this forum? Don't you have a campaign, or something like a campaign, to run?

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> The exact same thing happens in Vienna, most
> people here age in place. My street has houses
> that are 35 years old and at least half are
> original owners. That same thing is true all over
> Vienna and McLean and Oakton. The entire county is
> aging.

Please. How many dinks and sorority sisters and frat boys have bought the homes in McLean and Vienna. Not nearly as many as I see in Reston. McLean and Vienna went through what Reston is experiencing except it was 25 years ago.

> The difference is, Reston doesn't attract
> any new families, as other areas do, because
> Reston won't allow new single family homes to be
> built, nor will they allow substantial changes to
> the single family homes that exist.

All the last of the SFD lots were built out in the 1990s in North Point but young families couldn't afford them. they went to an older demographic. The young families went to Loudoun, to south Riding and Ashburn because they could get a larger house for the same or a lower house.


Families today
> do not want to live in 1960's style houses.

the single family house built in Reston in the 1980s and 90s weren't the California style I think your're refering to as 1960 houses. Instead they were federal style and adaptations of nantucket styles instead of the tired and trite georgians that were rightly referred to as Mcmansions. We may not have the same taste in archetectural styles, Neen, but that had nothing to with the lower numbers of kids at South Lakes.

> Reston has supported LOTS of growth in condos,
> apartments, and townhouses, none of which provide
> more students. Reston CHOSE to go with more
> single people, fewer families.

Those choices happened in the 1960s and were implemented over the next 40 years.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas,
> The exact same thing happens in Vienna, most
> people here age in place. My street has houses
> that are 35 years old and at least half are
> original owners. That same thing is true all over
> Vienna and McLean and Oakton. The entire county is
> aging. The difference is, Reston doesn't attract
> any new families, as other areas do, because
> Reston won't allow new single family homes to be
> built, nor will they allow substantial changes to
> the single family homes that exist. Families today
> do not want to live in 1960's style houses.
> Reston has supported LOTS of growth in condos,
> apartments, and townhouses, none of which provide
> more students. Reston CHOSE to go with more
> single people, fewer families. You got what you
> voted for. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't
> expect other people, outside Reston to pay for
> choices that they never made.

Neen, when did you become an authority on Reston? There are numerous homes in Reston that have undergone substantial renovation, just like in Vienna. RA is allowing the changes. Remember also that those single people pay a wealth of taxes without draining the system of services. That allows your kids and mine a good education. The solution is to widen the boundary feeding into SL. It's not complicated.

Vienna is an incorporated town and they have consistently voted to keep out high density and low income housing. We are not a town and don't have that luxury.

Reston is nice too! I do like all of the paths and wooded areas and town center. Not too high on the control freaks at RA.

Also, I do agree with Neen one of the reasons that people are not moving to Reston is the schools. And I don't think they're think of South Lakes, instead they're looking at what's coming up first... the elementary schools. And there are some holes there.

I would bet there is a big price difference depending on which side of Fox Mill Rd you're on. On one side Dogwood, the other Fox Mill. The homes are comparable.

SL,
Of course you get to vote on housing decisions in Reston. You have an HOA, and you can certainly vote to throw out Hudgins and Connelly. Why do you think Vienna and McLean and Oakton have avoided so much low incoming housing, apartments and condos? Reston gets them because Restonians vote for those people who are in bed with developers, and because the majority of people in Reston want that kind of development. Large liberal groups in Reston control it and they want more low incoming housing. How many more units are now in the pipeline for REston? 3,000? If they didn't want it, they wouldn't have it!

More later............

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can someone tell me what this means...
>
> > Rectify what was dismantled by previous boards.
> Rebalance what was previously balanced.

In the 1980s Lou Zone took North Point which was part of Reston and gave it to HHS to help increase enrollment at langley, mcLean, madison and marshall in a series of domino moves even more intricate than we're looking at now.

More Later

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SL,
> Of course you get to vote on housing decisions in
> Reston. You have an HOA, and you can certainly
> vote to throw out Hudgins and Connelly. Why do
> you think Vienna and McLean and Oakton have
> avoided so much low incoming housing, apartments
> and condos? Reston gets them because Restonians
> vote for those people who are in bed with
> developers, and because the majority of people in
> Reston want that kind of development. Large
> liberal groups in Reston control it and they want
> more low incoming housing. How many more units
> are now in the pipeline for REston? 3,000? If
> they didn't want it, they wouldn't have it!
>
> More later............

Au contraire? Lots of decisions have been made without any input from the community. Hudgins tried to ram housing through recently and she is being challenged, finally. She and Gerald Connelly completely ignored an expensive study done regarding the redevelopment of Lake Anne. The study recommended redeveloping an apartment complex into luxury condominiums. This was backed by everyone in that area. She and Connelly went behind their backs and purchased the complex so that it could remain affordable. We had no say in it. And the liberals who support her are all old and are not invested in the schools.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would bet there is a big price difference
> depending on which side of Fox Mill Rd you're on.
> On one side Dogwood, the other Fox Mill. The homes
> are comparable.

You lose. Check the assessments and the sales prices reported on the assessment sheets.

More Later



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:53PM by Thomas More.

I will do that.

SLVerity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Au contraire? Lots of decisions have been made
> without any input from the community.

those houses were the implementation of a comprehensive plan that was adopted 40 yrs ago. The County could not have said no.

Notice that there isn't alot sfd's in tysons either and yet the boundaries around it had to be radically changed in the 80s to adjust to the changing dynamics of McLean, Madison, Langley and marshall.

It's Reston's time to go through the same process but this time we can reunite a community that was wrongfully partitioned by Lou Zone.

So doesn't the above prove that one of the major arguments (home value) is not relavent?

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLVerity Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Au contraire? Lots of decisions have been made
> > without any input from the community.
>
> those houses were the implementation of a
> comprehensive plan that was adopted 40 yrs ago.
> The County could not have said no.
>
> Notice that there isn't alot sfd's in tysons
> either and yet the boundaries around it had to be
> radically changed in the 80s to adjust to the
> changing dynamics of McLean, Madison, Langley and
> marshall.
>
> It's Reston's time to go through the same process
> but this time we can reunite a community that was
> wrongfully partitioned by Lou Zone.

I was speaking of the Lawyers Road Park and Ride.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would people retire in place in Reston, but no
> place else in the county? They wouldn't. That's
> not the reason why your schools are under
> enrolled. They're under enrolled because Reston
> has decided to be a place for singles, and low
> income housing. Cathy Hudgins has worked very
> hard, along with Connelly, to put more and more
> low incoming housing (oops, I forget to use her
> word for it, 'affordable housing') into Reston. I
> can only assume that is what Restonians want, or
> they wouldn't vote for Cathy and Connelly in
> overwhelming numbers. Reston association has done
> nothing to attract families to Reston. That's why
> families aren't there!
>
> Liberals in Reston want more and more low incoming
> housing, more and more condos and townhouses, and
> they don't want any new single family homes built.
> Then whine when school populations
> drop,'diversity' increases to the point where
> families don't want to move there. You can't have
> it both ways. You can't force people to go to
> school there just because Reston has decided to
> become a haven for low income people and singles,
> without family friendly homes. People in Reston
> CHOSE that. People outside of Reston did not.
> Restonians can't expect the rest of the county to
> support their choices by sending their kids to
> Reston schools to fill up the under enrollment
> CAUSED by Reston policies.

Ok enough Reston bashing. If this is the motivation of the typical Arakelian supporter, I can take a trip on tuesday and a pox on both of their houses.

Take your facists non-sense and stick it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 08:55PM by Thomas More.

nope Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So doesn't the above prove that one of the major
> arguments (home value) is not relavent?

That's mostly right.

Homes values over the $500,000 are driven mostly by conspicuous consumption, "snob appeal". If the real estate agent can use some perceived marginal differential in SATs to get a gullible prospect to buy her listing and not her competitors, she'll use it. The vacant lot behind the house the broker is selling is always supposed to be a park, too. (the comprehensive plan has said apartments for decades but who cares. The broker says whatever it takes to make the sale. Gotta have that commission.) Its nonsense but some folks fall for it.

Home prices in FFX are driven buy a huge imbalance between jobs and housing. FFX has been pursuing a policy of exclusionary zoning since at least 1956. There is a housing shortage of 79,000. Our children will not be able to afford to live here. After they get out of college, they have to double and triple up to carry the rent/mortgage unless they move back in with Mom.

Average density per square mile

City of Alexandria 8200

County of Arlington 7300

Fairfax County 2500.

Mix large numbers of well paid employees/buyers chasing an artificially constricted supply of houses, add the funny money of subprime jumbo lending and the prices rise 400% in months.

When the savings and loan debacle dried up the easy mortgage money in the late 80s, home prices fell 25-40%. Houses at the higher brackets fell further and stayed down longer.

Those factors have a much higher impact on home prices than statistically insignificant differences in SATs.

More Later

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nope Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So doesn't the above prove that one of the
> major
> > arguments (home value) is not relavent?
>
> That's mostly right.
>
> Homes values over the $500,000 are driven mostly
> by conspicuous consumption, "snob appeal". If the
> real estate agent can use some perceived marginal
> differential in SATs to get a gullible prospect to
> buy her listing and not her competitors, she'll
> use it. The vacant lot behind the house the
> broker is selling is always supposed to be a park,
> too. (the comprehensive plan has said apartments
> for decades but who cares. The broker says
> whatever it takes to make the sale. Gotta have
> that commission.) Its nonsense but some folks fall
> for it.
>
> Home prices in FFX are driven buy a huge imbalance
> between jobs and housing. FFX has been pursuing a
> policy of exclusionary zoning since at least 1956.
> There is a housing shortage of 79,000. Our
> children will not be able to afford to live here.
> After they get out of college, they have to double
> and triple up to carry the rent/mortgage unless
> they move back in with Mom.
>
> Average density per square mile
>
> City of Alexandria 8200
>
> County of Arlington 7300
>
> Fairfax County 2500.
>
> Mix large numbers of well paid employees/buyers
> chasing an artificially constricted supply of
> houses, add the funny money of subprime jumbo
> lending and the prices rise 400% in months.
>
> When the savings and loan debacle dried up the
> easy mortgage money in the late 80s, home prices
> fell 25-40%. Houses at the higher brackets fell
> further and stayed down longer.
>
> Those factors have a much higher impact on home
> prices than statistically insignificant
> differences in SATs.


I have never thought that taking a real estate hit was a good reason to oppose redistricting. Even if true, it's not a convincing argument to anyone who doesn't live in the target neighborhods. I have to say, though, that people where I live are a little concerned about it, albeit off the record. I just don't think we'll see much honest discusion of it out in the open because of all the accusations of NIMBYism, etc.
Although it may be true that there are myriad other factors that influence the real estate market, having a house in a more desirable school district, and that includes elementary and middle schools, is always helpful to the seller. When we bought our home I had a well-worn print out of all stats of the FX Co. schools, and I wouldn't even look at houses that weren't in certain neighborhoods. I don't think that makes me racist or elitist. All things being equal, we wanted schools that seemed like good bets, and Fox Mill Elementary etc. sure looked good. It may be true that kids can get a great education in the Reston schools, but most of them don't look great on paper, and that's what a lot of people are going by. Based on talks with our parents, our school pyramid is one of the strongest draws in my neighborhood.

Again, I don't think real estate values should decide boundary changes, but you have to understand that it's a real issue and no amount of market-talk will eliminate it in people's minds. Maybe we can all agree that it might affect housing prices a little but it isn't going to matter to the school board, nor should it.

foxmill/carson/oakton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Again, I don't think real estate values should
> decide boundary changes, but you have to
> understand that it's a real issue.

OK ground truth this concept. the difference between Oakton & SL SATs is 50 points. How much more for the same house are you willing to pay for the higher SAT, $250,000, $500,000 $1 million?

>>>We've spoken to the school board staff since they've been through this before. They say its always contentious yet it always works out in the end<<<

First, what else would they say? Second, what is school board staff? The school board has a staff? Or did you mean facilities staff? Of course those who support boundary changes will tell you that it always works out. The fact is, it doesn't always work. It never worked at Marshall. They've never gotten their enrollment over 1,300 after forcing many Vienna families to go there, or trying to force them. It didn't work. It didn't work at Mount Vernon either, where they did a beautiful renovation and it's still 792 under enrolled with projects that it will 1,000 under enrolled in 4 years. Higher income families have options and they exercise them.

But you might be right, enrollment could be up in 10 years. But I don't see how they're going to get anything close to 700 new students even 5 years out. If people won't initially go to South Lakes, their neighbors 5 years out won't either. Unless they make South Lakes more attractive to parents and students, (not facilities, no one cares, but academically attractive) BEFORE they redistrict, the boundary change is doomed. A critical mass must appear and they won't. Without the critical mass, there is no hope of convincing others to attend.

I have no idea why the staff thought this renovation would motivate people to attend South Lakes. Putting up doors instead of shower curtains is a good idea, real walls are nice too, but parents care far more about the students and staff in the building than the building itself. Staff should have known that and worked on what is offered inside the building before trying to force people to enroll.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 12:35AM by Neen.

The differences in SATs are 50 points? That's a pretty big difference, between a 950 and 1000, or 1450 and 1500. Ask any kid. What percentage of students at South Lakes take the SAT? What percentage take it at Madison and Oakton? What percentage of students attend 4 year colleges after graduation? People looking to buy a house in a good school district look at all those things, and more.

What's the difference between SOL scores? How 'bout the behavior comparisons? Suspensions and expulsions? Assaults and drugs? When I compare Oakton and South Lakes and Madison, on this state website, the differences are striking. (Including 6 assaults on staff at South Lakes for two years running!) People moving in from out of state would certainly pay a premium to be in Oakton or Madison districts after comparing the schools. Perhaps that's why houses in those districts are advertised as such.

https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/

The problems at South Lakes must be fixed BEFORE students can be forced to enroll.

Foxmill parent,
Of course it makes a difference in house values and no one wants to lose money, particularly 10's of thousands of dollars, if not more. That's a perfectly legitimate reason for a home owner to oppose redistricting. Who wants to lose that kind of money? No one!

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I have no idea why the staff thought this
> renovation would motivate people to attend South
> Lakes. Putting up doors instead of shower
> curtains is a good idea,

they werent shower curtains they were beautiful fire retardant velvet! with reflectors!

Thomas,
You asked how much it is worth. One family I know spent $300,000 to move from the South Lakes district to the Oakton district. They didn't want to move, they'd lived in Reston for 10 years and loved it. But their children were approaching middle school and they did not want them in Hughes and South Lakes. It was a HUGE sacrifice for a hard working family but they paid the extra $300,000 to move to Oakton district. Mom had to go back to work, Dad won't be retiring when he had hoped, but they did it for their kids. Now,just 2 years later, they're going to be thrown back into South Lakes. They did move quite far enough, and part of that was because they really like Reston, just not the schools.

Then there's the family who moved into the Reston island 2 years ago from IL. They throughly researched ALL the schools, found the pyramid they most liked, and finally found a house in that pyramid. Now, after buying at the market peak, they now lose their carefully chosen schools, and their house loses even more value. Very sad. They did everything right for their kids, and the School Board screws them on a whim and a moment's notice. Some people might think that's a bit unfair.

Many people think it's even more unfair when Mount Vernon and Falls Church are even more under enrolled and there is no redistricting planned for either.

Comparing everything at the state website, I would say that most families would be willing to pay $100,000 more for Madison or Oakton. If private school is $15,000 a year or more, and a family has two or more children, it makes sense to pay $100,000 or even $200,000 more for a house in a neighborhood where you can send your children to a good public school.

For most folks, $100,000 is real money.