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The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: March 01, 2008 02:33PM

For those of you tired of the bickering between me and Mr. Rat (I know I am)...here is an article I found very interesting and some what balanced....

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19152.htm

the part I found most interesting is...the nation's prisons now hold about 150,000 armed robbers, 125,000 murderers, and 100,000 sex offenders—enough violent criminals to populate a medium-sized city such as Cincinnati. Few would dispute the need to remove these people from society. The level of violent crime in the United States, despite recent declines, still dwarfs that in Western Europe. But the proportion of offenders being sent to prison each year for violent crimes has actually fallen during the prison boom. In 1980 about half the people entering state prison were violent offenders; in 1995 less than a third had been convicted of a violent crime. The enormous increase in America's inmate population can be explained in large part by the sentences given to people who have committed nonviolent offenses. Crimes that in other countries would usually lead to community service, fines, or drug treatment—or would not be considered crimes at all—in the United States now lead to a prison term, by far the most expensive form of punishment. "No matter what the question has been in American criminal justice over the last generation," says Franklin E. Zimring, the director of the Earl Warren Legal Institute, "prison has been the answer."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2008 02:33PM by Vince(1).

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: March 01, 2008 03:20PM

what are the numbers of these?:
  • assault
  • drug distribution
  • drug possession
  • non-violent theft?
im just interested, that's all.


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: RAT'Z AZZ ()
Date: March 01, 2008 03:28PM

Like anyone from a liberal think tank (oxymoron) should be believed.

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: March 01, 2008 03:59PM

RAT'Z AZZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like anyone from a liberal think tank (oxymoron)
> should be believed.


Did you read it? Feel free to find an article from a more conservative view point. But drop the attacks...

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: March 01, 2008 04:04PM

Gravis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what are the numbers of these?:assaultdrug
> distributiondrug possessionnon-violent theft?im
> just interested, that's all.


Don't know...I am sure the last 3 categories would be in the category of non-violent crimes that the author (and I) might suggest there is a better way deal with those problems then incarceration. It certainly would come to no ones surprise that I consider this country's War on Drugs a complete failure...seems we have two solutions for everything in this country...declare war or put them in prison.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2008 04:04PM by Vince(1).

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Cornerstone ()
Date: March 03, 2008 02:06PM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For those of you tired of the bickering between me
> and Mr. Rat (I know I am)...here is an article I
> found very interesting and some what balanced....
>
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19
> 152.htm
>
> the part I found most interesting is...the
> nation's prisons now hold about 150,000 armed
> robbers, 125,000 murderers, and 100,000 sex
> offenders—enough violent criminals to populate a
> medium-sized city such as Cincinnati. Few would
> dispute the need to remove these people from
> society. The level of violent crime in the United
> States, despite recent declines, still dwarfs that
> in Western Europe. But the proportion of offenders
> being sent to prison each year for violent crimes
> has actually fallen during the prison boom. In
> 1980 about half the people entering state prison
> were violent offenders; in 1995 less than a third
> had been convicted of a violent crime. The
> enormous increase in America's inmate population
> can be explained in large part by the sentences
> given to people who have committed nonviolent
> offenses. Crimes that in other countries would
> usually lead to community service, fines, or drug
> treatment—or would not be considered crimes at
> all—in the United States now lead to a prison
> term, by far the most expensive form of
> punishment. "No matter what the question has been
> in American criminal justice over the last
> generation," says Franklin E. Zimring, the
> director of the Earl Warren Legal Institute,
> "prison has been the answer."

I don't know why I try, bit I will regardless. In previous posts, Vince, you have interpreted my correction of your facts an attack on you. I am going to dispute your facts here as well, but please don't interpret it as an attack on you. I am sure you have thicker skin than that.

1) In your previous post, you indicate that 1 in 100 are in jail. That statistic only applies to adult males. So, in reality, if you take the population as a whole, 1 in 100 Americans are not in jail, just 1 in 100 of American adult males. Small distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

2) I find the author's statement, "n 1980 about half the people entering state prison were violent offenders; in 1995 less than a third had been convicted of a violent crime" highly specious and dubious. He offers no source or citation to back up his claim. The DoJ Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS)keeps track of the exact same information that your quoted author misrepresents. However, BJS comes up with a highly different number. According to BJS, 47% of people in state prison in 1995 were violent offenders and in 2004, 52% of state prisoners were convicted of violent offenses. I'd be interested to see the authors sources. Interestingly enough, there is actually a smaller percentage in prison for drug offenses in 2004 than there was in 1995.

3) A full 1/3 of the total number of prisoners cited in the author's report are serving time in a local jail. While yes, they are technically "behind bars," it is a far cry from state or federal prison. These could be people serving DUI time, awaiting deportation, being in the drunk tank for a night, serving a two week sentence on work release, etc. Local jails do not produce the hardened criminals. To include this number in the overall population is a bit disingenuous and misleading.

4) To answer Gravis' question about numbers: In 2004, 633,700 individuals were incarcerated in state prisons for violent offenses; 265,600 individuals were incarcerated in state prisons for property offenses; 249,400 individuals were incarcerated in state prisons for drug offenses; and 88,900 individuals were incarcerated in state prisons for public order offenses.

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: pony man ()
Date: March 03, 2008 06:23PM

Vince I read an article on the open cases of child porn and how there were not enough resources to follow up most of the cases. When a cop was interviewed he said it wasnt a gray area of porn it was grown men raping babies and kids under five.
In my opinion if you have them on tape the next step is to hunt them down and once caught taken to the nearest wall given a last cigarette and shot dead. Prison is too good for vermin like this. Maybe you have a better understanding and can offer an excuse for this type of crime, I prefer the quick and easy route of execution.

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: March 04, 2008 07:33PM

pony man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince I read an article on the open cases of child
> porn and how there were not enough resources to
> follow up most of the cases. When a cop was
> interviewed he said it wasnt a gray area of porn
> it was grown men raping babies and kids under
> five.
> In my opinion if you have them on tape the next
> step is to hunt them down and once caught taken to
> the nearest wall given a last cigarette and shot
> dead. Prison is too good for vermin like this.
> Maybe you have a better understanding and can
> offer an excuse for this type of crime, I prefer
> the quick and easy route of execution.


what are you talking about? Nothing in this thread refers to pornography...and my statement in another thread on it being a crime to have a nude photo of an adult that for whatever reason you beleive is that of a young teenage girl has nothing to do with the type of pictures you mention. My apologies if it offends you that I believe that people arrested for these type of crimes are due their day in court.

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: March 04, 2008 07:39PM

Cornerstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > For those of you tired of the bickering between
> me
> > and Mr. Rat (I know I am)...here is an article
> I
> > found very interesting and some what
> balanced....
> >
> >
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19
>
> > 152.htm
> >
> > the part I found most interesting is...the
> > nation's prisons now hold about 150,000 armed
> > robbers, 125,000 murderers, and 100,000 sex
> > offenders—enough violent criminals to populate
> a
> > medium-sized city such as Cincinnati. Few would
> > dispute the need to remove these people from
> > society. The level of violent crime in the
> United
> > States, despite recent declines, still dwarfs
> that
> > in Western Europe. But the proportion of
> offenders
> > being sent to prison each year for violent
> crimes
> > has actually fallen during the prison boom. In
> > 1980 about half the people entering state
> prison
> > were violent offenders; in 1995 less than a
> third
> > had been convicted of a violent crime. The
> > enormous increase in America's inmate
> population
> > can be explained in large part by the sentences
> > given to people who have committed nonviolent
> > offenses. Crimes that in other countries would
> > usually lead to community service, fines, or
> drug
> > treatment—or would not be considered crimes at
> > all—in the United States now lead to a prison
> > term, by far the most expensive form of
> > punishment. "No matter what the question has
> been
> > in American criminal justice over the last
> > generation," says Franklin E. Zimring, the
> > director of the Earl Warren Legal Institute,
> > "prison has been the answer."
>
> I don't know why I try, bit I will regardless. In
> previous posts, Vince, you have interpreted my
> correction of your facts an attack on you. I am
> going to dispute your facts here as well, but
> please don't interpret it as an attack on you. I
> am sure you have thicker skin than that.
>
> 1) In your previous post, you indicate that 1 in
> 100 are in jail. That statistic only applies to
> adult males. So, in reality, if you take the
> population as a whole, 1 in 100 Americans are not
> in jail, just 1 in 100 of American adult males.
> Small distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.
>
>
> 2) I find the author's statement, "n 1980 about
> half the people entering state prison were violent
> offenders; in 1995 less than a third had been
> convicted of a violent crime" highly specious and
> dubious. He offers no source or citation to back
> up his claim. The DoJ Bureau of Justice
> Statistics (BJS)keeps track of the exact same
> information that your quoted author misrepresents.
> However, BJS comes up with a highly different
> number. According to BJS, 47% of people in state
> prison in 1995 were violent offenders and in 2004,
> 52% of state prisoners were convicted of violent
> offenses. I'd be interested to see the authors
> sources. Interestingly enough, there is actually
> a smaller percentage in prison for drug offenses
> in 2004 than there was in 1995.
>
> 3) A full 1/3 of the total number of prisoners
> cited in the author's report are serving time in a
> local jail. While yes, they are technically
> "behind bars," it is a far cry from state or
> federal prison. These could be people serving DUI
> time, awaiting deportation, being in the drunk
> tank for a night, serving a two week sentence on
> work release, etc. Local jails do not produce the
> hardened criminals. To include this number in the
> overall population is a bit disingenuous and
> misleading.
>
> 4) To answer Gravis' question about numbers: In
> 2004, 633,700 individuals were incarcerated in
> state prisons for violent offenses; 265,600
> individuals were incarcerated in state prisons for
> property offenses; 249,400 individuals were
> incarcerated in state prisons for drug offenses;
> and 88,900 individuals were incarcerated in state
> prisons for public order offenses.


all good points...thank you for a calm and thought out response. The topic deserves more investigation in my opinion. My opinion is that everytime we declare "war" on any anything...drugs...crime...Iraq...minorities end up taking a misproportionate hit on the chin. If I was a minority Id be even more suspicious and critical of all these well intentioned initiatives.

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Vince(1) ()
Date: March 04, 2008 08:50PM

Question for you Cornerstone...If there was a law...a policy..that resulted in 15% of the white males facing major prison time...how long do you think it would be before that law was repealed? The last time I can think of thatsomething like that occurred was prohibition...which turned a large portion of the American population into lawbreakers subject to imprisonment.

My point being of course..that despite all the testosterone chest beating on my part....and others...that number alone shows there is a problem not being fixed by our present policies. That doesnt mean I think we should open up the prison gates...it means I think something is wrong!

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Re: The Prison - Industrial Complex
Posted by: Gravis ()
Date: March 05, 2008 10:29AM

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> my statement in
> another thread on it being a crime to have a nude
> photo of an adult that for whatever reason you
> beleive is that of a young teenage girl has
> nothing to do with the type of pictures you
> mention.


do you have any evidence that this has happened? if not, this is referred to being a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. my fav site has details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."095042938540

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