For no really reason. We set the standard, Russia is just doing what we have done. Thanks Neo-cons

GW#3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For no really reason. We set the standard, Russia
> is just doing what we have done. Thanks Neo-cons

That's stupid.

Absolutely, international law, the respect of the soverienty of nations and outright outrage against military pre-emption doesn't hold nearly as much water as it used to.

Yeah Kerry is making all those criticisms but he just looks like a hypocrite because of the U.S. recent acts of aggression.

Before Bush the U.S. could put such an enormous immediate amount of pressure on Moscow for actions such as these. Now it will take more effort and time.

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely, international law, the respect of the
> soverienty of nations and outright outrage against
> military pre-emption doesn't hold nearly as much
> water as it used to.
>
> Yeah Kerry is making all those criticisms but he
> just looks like a hypocrite because of the U.S.
> recent acts of aggression.

I can't believe I'm about to agree with your dumb ass, but I do here. The U.S. comes off as massively hypocritical because of invasion of Iraq. It was a stupid fucking war. Kerry will tell you that, because remember he was against it before he was for it.

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely, international law, the respect of the
> soverienty of nations and outright outrage against
> military pre-emption doesn't hold nearly as much
> water as it used to.
>
> Yeah Kerry is making all those criticisms but he
> just looks like a hypocrite because of the U.S.
> recent acts of aggression.


Agreed honestly, though it won't be the last hypocritical speech in the next few days. Get ready for a lot of hypocrisy as both sides try to cast themselves as the good guy.

Victoria Nuland, she of the famous "F*** the EU" quote with regards to planned succession in the Ukraine government, is married to Robert Kagan. There's effectively no difference between the neo-cons and the neo-libs, the latter pretending that economic liberalization and globalization will lead to the Russian and Chinese dominoes falling. Sooner or later, outside military force of some kind will be involved in regime change.

This is what we get. We made the bed with Iraq, Libya, etc. now we gotta sleep in it. War is stupid.

n74jx Wrote:
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> This is what we get. We made the bed with Iraq,
> Libya, etc. now we gotta sleep in it. War is
> stupid.


Political cost of Iraq will still be felt for at least another generation.

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
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> Before Bush the U.S. could put such an enormous
> immediate amount of pressure on Moscow for actions
> such as these. Now it will take more effort and
> time.


God you're such a fucking moron. It's truly a wonder how you can string two words together to complete a sentence.

First, as much butt hurt as you feel about it, not every event in the history of humankind revolves around Bush and the 2nd Iraq War. It just doesn't.

Second, we were only able to influence Russian foreign military and diplomatic policy from the collapse of the USSR to about when Putin came into power. During that time Russia was a hot mess with internal corruption, organized crime, a war in Chechnya, a collapsing economy, right-wing and left-wing extremist groups, a loose nuclear stockpile and a drunk as president.

Putin came in and would have none of our influence.

And Gerry, you we used to influence them. When was that? Was it in 1948 when they tried to cut off Berlin. 1949 when they developed their own atomic weapon? 1956 when they slaughtered Hungarians trying to throw off communism? 1968, a repeat by in Czechoslovakia? 1979 when they invade Afghanistan without provocation? (At least we waited until 3,000 were dead before going in. Wish you had been one of them.) Or then there was the time when the shut off gas shipments to Hungary, then a year letter did the same thing with Ukraine. Yeah, lots of influence we had. Ooh! Ooh! It was 2008 when they bombed the Georgians during the Summer Olympics, a time when men of goodwill from all nations lay down their arms and embrace each other in brotherhood.

Which Gerry? Which was the time when we were able to influence them through pressure.

We're referring to the legitimacy of the u.S. position proclaiming violations of international law. The basis of argument against pre-emptive acts between nations on our part. This ain't your daddy's Soviet Union either.

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We're referring to the legitimacy of the u.S.
> position proclaiming violations of international
> law. The basis of argument against pre-emptive
> acts between nations on our part. This ain't your
> daddy's Soviet Union either.


So youre debating something that only academics in the US care about and no other nation has ever given a crap about in the history of mankind? Howd that legitimacy influence Hitler, or Stalin, or the USSR, or Chavez, or any Iranian leader, or the Taliban, should I go on?

Yes actually it is the Soviet Union starting to be put back together again.

Obama threatening to stop following Putin on Twitter if Putin doesn't pull Russian troops out from the Ukraine.

Liberal Logic 005 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We're referring to the legitimacy of the u.S.
> > position proclaiming violations of
> international
> > law. The basis of argument against pre-emptive
> > acts between nations on our part. This ain't
> your
> > daddy's Soviet Union either.
>
>
> So youre debating something that only academics in
> the US care about and no other nation has ever
> given a crap about in the history of mankind?
> Howd that legitimacy influence Hitler, or Stalin,
> or the USSR, or Chavez, or any Iranian leader, or
> the Taliban, should I go on?
>
> Yes actually it is the Soviet Union starting to be
> put back together again.

Russia been empire building since Peter the Great. It is who they are, know your fucking history.

pluzzzzzzzze Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Liberal Logic 005 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > We're referring to the legitimacy of the u.S.
> > > position proclaiming violations of
> > international
> > > law. The basis of argument against
> pre-emptive
> > > acts between nations on our part. This ain't
> > your
> > > daddy's Soviet Union either.
> >
> >
> > So youre debating something that only academics
> in
> > the US care about and no other nation has ever
> > given a crap about in the history of mankind?
> > Howd that legitimacy influence Hitler, or
> Stalin,
> > or the USSR, or Chavez, or any Iranian leader,
> or
> > the Taliban, should I go on?
> >
> > Yes actually it is the Soviet Union starting to
> be
> > put back together again.
>
> Russia been empire building since Peter the Great.
> It is who they are, know your fucking history.

You actually expect liberals to read?

Liberals actually do a lot of reading. You Republicans surely seem dismayed as to what angle to take during conversation given the fact there is no right wing radio programming airing today.

I think once you get your marching orders you'll be in lock step with a lot more self assurance tomorrow.

pluzzzzzzzze Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Russia been empire building since Peter the Great.
> It is who they are, know your fucking history.

Yea they did so much empire building over the last 30 years right? Its almost like they do it when theres weak world leaders who wont stop them....hmmm

They have been pretty tamed until they started by invading Georgia under Bush. Remember that, yeah, and Bush didn't do shit.

Gerrymanderer2 Wrote:
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> Liberals actually do a lot of reading.

Since you enjoy reading so much

“You said Russia. Not Al Qaida. You said Russia,” Obama said regarding biggest threats. “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because…the cold war’s been over for 20 years.”

Obama in October 2012

Liberal Logic 005 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pluzzzzzzzze Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Russia been empire building since Peter the
> Great.
> > It is who they are, know your fucking history.
>
> Yea they did so much empire building over the last
> 30 years right? Its almost like they do it when
> theres weak world leaders who wont stop
> them....hmmm


They tried in Georgia 2008 and Chechnya from about 1994-2002. So again, know your fucking history.

pluuuuuzeeee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> They tried in Georgia 2008 and Chechnya from about
> 1994-2002. So again, know your fucking history.


Russia never recognized that Chechnya was an independent state like they did with the others. Thats like saying the US was empire building during the Civil War when the South wanted out.

With Georgia Bush had already been neutered by Reid at that point who was running the show by then. They didnt try anything until progressives came to power. They pray on weakness.

Might want to check your own history there chief. Anyone who knows history should have known what a terrible example Chechnya was for the point youre trying to make.

Please excuse LL, he likes to talk all the time but always has very little to say. The end result is most of it comes out his ass.

This was pointed out in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia and kicked their asses. This Ukraine situation isn't an all out invasion, but they are adding fuel to the fire over an already tense situation. The Euromaiden protesters won, and now Russia is taking advantage of the fact that the new leadership doesn't have full control of its military and territory to impose their presence.

Liberal Logic 005 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pluuuuuzeeee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > They tried in Georgia 2008 and Chechnya from
> about
> > 1994-2002. So again, know your fucking history.
>
>
> Russia never recognized that Chechnya was an
> independent state like they did with the others.
> Thats like saying the US was empire building
> during the Civil War when the South wanted out.
>
> With Georgia Bush had already been neutered by
> Reid at that point who was running the show by
> then. They didnt try anything until progressives
> came to power. They pray on weakness.


Nixon, that liberal pussy.

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This was pointed out in 2008 when Russia invaded
> Georgia and kicked their asses. This Ukraine
> situation isn't an all out invasion, but they are
> adding fuel to the fire over an already tense
> situation. The Euromaiden protesters won, and now
> Russia is taking advantage of the fact that the
> new leadership doesn't have full control of its
> military and territory to impose their presence.


There are two situations:
1. Either Russia is trying to avoid a civil war and is acting like big brother.
or.
2. Russia wants to split Ukraine into West and East, with the East being Russian controlled.

#2 gets you civil war, and worst case for Russia.