Okay im new to DC area. Have lived in my centreville townhouse for less than 2 years. My heat pump (15 years old) has died. There is a gas meter rack thing on the front of the house with no meter on it and some of my neighbors heat with gas.
Question is this, is it worth an extra 1,800 american dollars to start heating my home with a gas furnace? The heat pump was just fine comfort wise last winter.
If I buy top efficency stuff I can get a 1500 dollar tax credit on either the gas or the heat pump. The contractor that I plan to use says I can get both heat pump and gas so that I only burn gas if its real cold outside.
I would be thankfull for any words of wisdom from some of you local folks.

ho moaner confused Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Question is this, is it worth an extra 1,800
> american dollars to start heating my home with a
> gas furnace?



Well Mr. Ho Moaner, it would be a much better investment if you paid in Euro or Swiss Franc.

The logical move would be to get the "combo" unit - providing you with the gas backup option if the temp gets down below 32 (F). However, natural gas prices have been relatively stable for the past several years.

Now, thinking through it a bit further. The gas only option isn't a bad move, either. I've been using natural gas for many years. We had it for 15 years in our townhome - it was excellent, and cheap. The previous place we had was a heat pump only, and stunk. The house was always cold and the bills were not too cheap. When it got real cold (towards zero degrees), the emergency (resistance) heat would kick on and the meter would really spin. Chances are if your current heat pump provided adequate heat, then it was "right sized" for your home. But, I'd still jump or opt for gas if I had the option. $1,800 is a small amount for that part of the conversion. One final thing to keep in mind with gas heat, though, is that the air in your home will be a bit drier, but the furnace and fan will run a lot less often than the heat pump unit does now.

Yeah eesh that American Dollars bit threw me too. I've got two heat pumps, they work fine but the avg life on them is 10-15 years. I think dollar for American dollar overall the gas heated home may come out ahead in terms of efficiency vs a heat pump. I would go with whatever your home is fitted for, if for both then go w gas.

Britdrnva~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah eesh that American Dollars bit threw me too.
> I've got two heat pumps, they work fine but the
> avg life on them is 10-15 years. I think dollar
> for American dollar overall the gas heated home
> may come out ahead in terms of efficiency vs a
> heat pump. I would go with whatever your home is
> fitted for, if for both then go w gas.

I've got a 2-zone system for my place. Gas heats the lower 2 levels and the bedroom level is a heat pump only system. Some of my neighbors had a different builder and their 2nd level is gas, too. I guess it all depends on how motivated the HVAC installer is to run a gas line up to the attic for the 2nd system. But, with both units, it seems to work OK because the warmer gas heat rises, and makes up for the lacking heat pump unit.

eesh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ho moaner confused Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Question is this, is it worth an extra 1,800
> > american dollars to start heating my home with
> a
> > gas furnace?
>
>
>
> Well Mr. Ho Moaner, it would be a much better
> investment if you paid in Euro or Swiss Franc.

Actually, the OP lives in Centreville, so Pesos might be a payment option. Or, even the Korean Won might even be acceptable.

Britdrnva~ Wrote:
------------------overall the gas heated home
> may come out ahead in terms of efficiency vs a
> heat pump. I would go with whatever your home is
> fitted for, if for both then go w gas.


Woah there Brit, Gas furnaces are not even in the same league as heat pumps. The highest efficency residential gas furnace made is about 96.5% efficent. Electric heat is 100% efficent and heat pumps go up from there. The "EER" in Seer refers to the energy efficency ratio. I think you may have confused cost with efficency.

to the OP-

I would not even consider running a gas pipe into my home. Burning fossil fuels for heat worked okay for cave men but things have come a bit further since those days. Dont be a bitch and dammage the enviroment or expose yourself and family to the dangers of gas and carbon monoxide. Go for a nice clean heat pump and get a heat pump water heater while your at it.

I worked for washington gas for 6 years and I cant even begin to tell you how many close calls I witnessed.

Try stir frying on an electric stove - Bang! Slam! Whap! Break!

Replace element after element.

Not fer me! Gas all the way.

Dave - thanks for the clarification - didn't realize that gas wasn't as close as heat pumps, was under the impression they were very similar. So let me ask you this...if gas is so much more inefficient etc, why is it an option for so many? You'd think basically heat pumps would be offered.

Britdrnva~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dave - thanks for the clarification - didn't
> realize that gas wasn't as close as heat pumps,
> was under the impression they were very similar.
> So let me ask you this...if gas is so much more
> inefficient etc, why is it an option for so many?
> You'd think basically heat pumps would be offered.


There are some cases where it is cheaper to heat your home with gas. And in some areas there is not a sufficent infastructure to provide homes with enough electric power to run heatpumps. Here in northern virginia most homes have at least 200 amps. Lots of single fam homes built in the last 15 or 20 years have 400 amps. Compare that to parts of west virginia where they may be lucky to have 60 amps.
The real deal for the enviroment is that with a heat pump you are merely paying the transportation cost to pump free heat from the outdoor air to the indoor air. One kilowatt of electric power will yield 3142 btus to a electric furnace or a space heater, put that same kilowatt into a heat pump and you can get 2 or 3 or 4 times as much heat transfered into your home.
With a gas furnace you are just burning an irreplaceble fossel fuel and putting 5 to 25 percent of the heat up the chimney much like a cave man with his fire.
The cave man however was dealing with 99% of his heat wasted depending on the wind and the size of his cave.

sorry 1 kw = 3412btus not 3142

I have both in my house, and I have to say the correct answer is "it depends".

The "efficiency" argument is misleading. I doubt that any system is actually 100% efficient. With gas a certain amount of heat is lost when the exhaust gases go out the chimney. With a heat pump a certain amount of electricity is lost in working the compressors and not all of the heat generated is actually removed by the fans or is lost in transit. No doubt the heat lost from the gas exhaust exceeds the heat lost from the heat pump. However this is largely theoretical. What matters to me isn't how much heat is lost; it is how much does it cost to heat my house. For this you need to consider relative costs of gas v. electricity and the costs of installing AND MAINTAINING systems.

Another factor is that heat pump technology only works down to a certain temperature. Below this point you need a backup which can be electric. This electrical backup is basically the same technology that they used to use for electric heaters before they developed the heat pump, and is not as efficient as the heat pump itself.

A third factor is the TYPE of heat. The best way I can explain this is heat pumps provide "warm blasts" of air, while gas provides "hot blasts". To some this makes a difference. To others it doesn't.

Considering that if a system is 100% efficient it would be violating the Second Law of Thermodynamics, I think Daves should clarify his reasoning for that statement.

davedavedave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Burning fossil fuels for heat worked okay
> for cave men but things have come a bit further
> since those days. Dont be a bitch and dammage the
> enviroment ...

Did you ever consider that electricity is made from fossil fuel? Last time I checked, coal was a fossil fuel.

Sure, there are some risks with gas. However, I still wouldn't consider using a 100% heat pump system in my home, unless I lived in South Carolina - or further south.

Too bad 70% of the electric power generated in this country comes from fossil fuels with 45% of the total generated coming from coal at 30% average efficiency. The seat of my pants tells me that my caveman installation, while less than ideal, is better for the environment than a pure electric configuration.

Personally I went with a duel fuel set up when I replaced my system. I had a new 92.5 afue furnace and 14 seer heatpump installed along with a Takagi instantaneous hot water heater. This decision was made nine years ago. I have no regrets. From a cost benefit standpoint it made the most sense at the time. I put the difference I saved over a super efficient heatpump into new windows and additional insulation. Today the decision might be different. However, as I said, I have no regrets.

We're border line for the effective area of electric heat pump use. Gas is better, if you feel like going with it.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

Hey Dave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> davedavedave Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Burning fossil fuels for heat worked okay
> > for cave men but things have come a bit further
> > since those days. Dont be a bitch and dammage
> the
> > enviroment ...
>
> Did you ever consider that electricity is made
> from fossil fuel? Last time I checked, coal was a
> fossil fuel.
>
> Sure, there are some risks with gas. However, I
> still wouldn't consider using a 100% heat pump
> system in my home, unless I lived in South
> Carolina - or further south.


Of course any idiot knows that the majority of electric power is generated by power companies burning fossil fuel. That is exactly why everyone benifits when you put that power into a heat pump that pumps heat into your home that it extracts from the outdoor air.
Remember that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Even tonight there are countless trillions of btus of heat floating around your neighborhood why not catch some of them with a nice clean heat pump and bring them inside. There is nothing wrong with using a gas furnace as long as you understand that you are a filthy selfish bitch for doing so. JMO FWIW

Older homes with floorboard heaters in each room are the best. I fucking hate these new homes that have one or two thermostats for the whole home.

tomahawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Considering that if a system is 100% efficient it
> would be violating the Second Law of
> Thermodynamics, I think Daves should clarify his
> reasoning for that statement.


I suppose a electric furnace could be considered less than 100% efficent if it was located in an unconditioned space such as an attic or a garage where it would loose some heat through the jacket of the furnace. Any electric heater gives the same 3412btus per kw period. Now how efficent the power company was when they generated that power is not a given. The efficency of that appliance is a given 100%

quote from this http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/electric.html website

There is a big myth (or urban legend if you will) running around that one electric space heater works better than another. For example that oil filled heaters (like Holmes / Delonghi / Windmere / Lakewood / Honeywell / Duracraft) work better than a cheap light bulb because they heat the oil and the oil keeps radiating after the power is removed by the thermostat.
The truth is that all electric heaters are 100% efficient. It doesn't matter if it is a light bulb filament, a fancy quartz heater, the elements in your electric furnace, the elements in your electric hot water heater or your toaster. The fact is that 100% of the electrical energy is converted into heat and there is nothing you can do to increase or decrease that energy conversion.

davedavedave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Dave Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > davedavedave Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > Burning fossil fuels for heat worked okay
> > > for cave men but things have come a bit
> further
> > > since those days. Dont be a bitch and dammage
> > the
> > > enviroment ...
> >
> > Did you ever consider that electricity is made
> > from fossil fuel? Last time I checked, coal was
> a
> > fossil fuel.
> >
> > Sure, there are some risks with gas. However,
> I
> > still wouldn't consider using a 100% heat pump
> > system in my home, unless I lived in South
> > Carolina - or further south.
>
>
> Of course any idiot knows that the majority of
> electric power is generated by power companies
> burning fossil fuel. That is exactly why everyone
> benifits when you put that power into a heat pump
> that pumps heat into your home that it extracts
> from the outdoor air.
> Remember that energy cannot be created or
> destroyed. Even tonight there are countless
> trillions of btus of heat floating around your
> neighborhood why not catch some of them with a
> nice clean heat pump and bring them inside. There
> is nothing wrong with using a gas furnace as long
> as you understand that you are a filthy selfish
> bitch for doing so. JMO FWIW


WoW too much info but thanks all. think ill just get the cheapie heat pump. Ill be moving back to my country in a couple years anyway. Thank you all.

davedavedave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Dave Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > davedavedave Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > Burning fossil fuels for heat worked okay
> > > for cave men but things have come a bit
> further
> > > since those days. Dont be a bitch and dammage
> > the
> > > enviroment ...
> >
> > Did you ever consider that electricity is made
> > from fossil fuel? Last time I checked, coal was
> a
> > fossil fuel.
> >
> > Sure, there are some risks with gas. However,
> I
> > still wouldn't consider using a 100% heat pump
> > system in my home, unless I lived in South
> > Carolina - or further south.
>
>
> Of course any idiot knows that the majority of
> electric power is generated by power companies
> burning fossil fuel. That is exactly why everyone
> benifits when you put that power into a heat pump
> that pumps heat into your home that it extracts
> from the outdoor air.
> Remember that energy cannot be created or
> destroyed. Even tonight there are countless
> trillions of btus of heat floating around your
> neighborhood why not catch some of them with a
> nice clean heat pump and bring them inside. There
> is nothing wrong with using a gas furnace as long
> as you understand that you are a filthy selfish
> bitch for doing so. JMO FWIW

My heat pump ceases to heat my house when the outdoor ambient temperature drops below 32degF. Below that temperature I cant find any 'free' BTUs so I'm forced to run an electric strip furnace or a gas furnace. When the electric utilities can match my efficiency or sequester the carbon output, the less filthy option is to burn natural gas.

Now, if you want to start talking geothermal, that would been my first choice. Hell, I could probably run that with a wood gasification generator or even solar panels if I wanted to be freakishly green. But few of us in this county have the lot space to retrofit the ground loops necessary for a geothermal install. Plus the return on investment would make it a foolish choice, again making the investment in insulation and other energy saving retrofits much smarter and better for the environment overall.

We had gas heating in my first house, and it actually blew warm air. The current house has electric, and it blows cool air (Albeit, warmer than the outdoor temp.). The electric does work, but it doesn't do as well once it goes below freezing outside.

In Alaska, quite a few homes have oil heating, and heated floorboards.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

Did you just say ALASKA?

Teh King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> davedavedave Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey Dave Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
>
>
> My heat pump ceases to heat my house when the
> outdoor ambient temperature drops below 32degF.
> Below that temperature I cant find any 'free' BTUs
> so I'm forced to run an electric strip furnace or
> a gas furnace. When the electric utilities can
> match my efficiency or sequester the carbon
> output, the less filthy option is to burn natural
> gas.
>
> Now, if you want to start talking geothermal, that
> would been my first choice. Hell, I could probably
> run that with a wood gasification generator or
> even solar panels if I wanted to be freakishly
> green. But few of us in this county have the lot
> space to retrofit the ground loops necessary for a
> geothermal install. Plus the return on investment
> would make it a foolish choice, again making the
> investment in insulation and other energy saving
> retrofits much smarter and better for the
> environment overall.


Yeah older heatpumps had to be sized to the cooling requirements of the home and the shortfall of heat capacity made up with strip heat. We now have inverter technolgy compressors which basicly use a common frequency drive and can ramp their capicity down for cooling and moisture removal in the summer. There is very little difference in heat content of 100degree air and 30degree air. We humans are very sensitive to tiny changes in temperature.
I agree with what you said about geothermal it is awesome but way too expensive
Just the fact that a geothermal heat pump never has to defrost itself is huge.

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2012 08:33AM by chuckhoffmann.

chuckhoffmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's kind of hard to pass a heat pump, but it's
> easy to pass gas.


How much heat

Would a heat pump pump

If a heat pump

could pump

heat

?

ho moaner confused Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Question is this, is it worth an extra 1,800
> american dollars

nope. no need to waste your american dollars, euro, francs, or pesos.
with a name like "ho moaner" my gasguy will gladly take it out in trade. ;o

yeefuckinghaw

you have to have a mobile home to use gas heat.

how else could you get your house to the gas station?

Duh.

Geothermal is currently more attractive than normal. Up through 2014 I believe, you will get a 30% tax credit for all costs associated with a goethermal system installation. ROI is still going to be in the 10-12 year range, I am in the process of getting geothermal at my house. My current heat pump is running on borrowed time.

Cost: $32,000
Subtract 30% from tax credit: -$9,600
Subtract cost of conventional heat pump system: -$9,000
Net difference going with geothermal: $13,400

System will easily save $1,500 / year in electic bills. Not to mention, the lifespan for a geothermal is considerably greater than conventional heat pump. So, in 10 years or so, I would have to replace the conventional system again.

Other bonuses: absolutely no part of the system visible from the outside, much improved heating (or cooling) capability when temps get very low (or high)

GeothermalGood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geothermal is currently more attractive than
> normal. Up through 2014 I believe, you will get a
> 30% tax credit for all costs associated with a
> goethermal system installation. ROI is still
> going to be in the 10-12 year range, I am in the
> process of getting geothermal at my house. My
> current heat pump is running on borrowed time.
>
> Cost: $32,000
> Subtract 30% from tax credit: -$9,600
> Subtract cost of conventional heat pump system:
> -$9,000
> Net difference going with geothermal: $13,400
>
> System will easily save $1,500 / year in electic
> bills. Not to mention, the lifespan for a
> geothermal is considerably greater than
> conventional heat pump. So, in 10 years or so, I
> would have to replace the conventional system
> again.
>
> Other bonuses: absolutely no part of the system
> visible from the outside, much improved heating
> (or cooling) capability when temps get very low
> (or high)

That sounds awesome. make sure you get a contractor that will not go out of business in a few years. If you get a good install it will pay off. Please tell me you are going closed loop and getting an optional desuperheater to preheat your domestic water.
If you go Waterfurnace and get a loop installed by a WFI certified loop contractor then WFI will back a 50 year warranty on the loop.

How do you use geothermal heating in a townhouse in Fairfax County?

 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2012 08:33AM by chuckhoffmann.

davedavedave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> That sounds awesome. make sure you get a
> contractor that will not go out of business in a
> few years. If you get a good install it will pay
> off. Please tell me you are going closed loop and
> getting an optional desuperheater to preheat your
> domestic water.
> If you go Waterfurnace and get a loop installed by
> a WFI certified loop contractor then WFI will back
> a 50 year warranty on the loop.

Contractor has been around a long time. Yep, closed loop, Waterfurnace brand, desuperheater / water heater included (existing electric water heater is original @ 22 years old). Loop is indeed warranteed for 50 years.

This area is too cold for a heat pump to be efficient on the coldest days. I switched to an efficient gas unit 18 months ago and now save substantially on utilities. We are also a lot more comfortable. The unit is quieter, does not run much and the humidifier keeps it from getting too dry in the house.

And the $1500 tax credit was a nice incentive.

-------------------------------------------------
“We don’t have any rude, unpleasant people here. We’re different!”

tomahawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you use geothermal heating in a townhouse
> in Fairfax County?






I wondered the same thing about GeothermalGood 's advice. It's about as realistic as setting up wind turbines in your .00004 acre of backyard to power your house.

>
> I wondered the same thing about GeothermalGood 's
> advice. It's about as realistic as setting up wind
> turbines in your .00004 acre of backyard to power
> your house.


Look. If I said it can efficiently be done, it can. Any questions? I thought so.

BUMP


any more opinions?

Heat pumps are the ONLY way to go. Gas furnaces are much too hot, dry and dangerous.

Gas is dangerous, but it is also stable and trustworthy. Of course, a lot of things depend on the providing company, I would try to find out all the details first. American Power and Gas seems to be not bad company, here are some real reviews from real customers https://american-power-and-gas.pissedconsumer.com/review.html .