http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/31/recess-harassment-memo/

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2012 11:14AM by Alias.

(Giggles)
Attachments:

Good for them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being vague is almost as fun as that other thing.

Even if there is an organization behind some of these folks (I doubt that guy who was a veteran was a plant), I would guess folks took a look at moveon.org's tactics and decided to use them to their own advantage. Assuming this is more than just a bunch of people legitimately fed up with the crap.

I work in an office with a mix of conservatives and liberals - the folks that supported Obama are very unhappy with the way Congress has moved on this stuff, and the way Obama has acted lately. Not just because of the stimulus (they weren't very happy with that) - but cap and trade, health care (insurance) reform, and this thing with Gates.

If it is happening in our office, I am sure it is being repeated in a lot of other places.

]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 10:13PM by Alias.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if there is an organization behind some of
> these folks (I doubt that guy who was a veteran
> was a plant), I would guess folks took a look at
> moveon.org's tactics and decided to use them to
> their own advantage. Assuming this is more than
> just a bunch of people legitimately fed up with
> the crap.
>
> I work in an office with a mix of conservatives
> and liberals - the folks that supported Obama are
> very unhappy with the way Congress has moved on
> this stuff, and the way Obama has acted lately.
> Not just because of the stimulus (they weren't
> very happy with that) - but cap and trade, health
> care (insurance) reform, and this thing with
> Gates.
>
> If it is happening in our office, I am sure it is
> being repeated in a lot of other places.

People just tell you what you want to hear...to get you to shut up and get to work!

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

I work in an office of all conservatives...and all of them are very happy with the way Obama has handled everything since his inaugeration. They say the are considering voting democratic in the 2010 congressional elections and are considering asking the constitution be changed to allow Obama to run for a 3rd term in 2016.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I work in an office of all conservatives...and all
> of them are very happy with the way Obama has
> handled everything since his inaugeration. They
> say the are considering voting democratic in the
> 2010 congressional elections and are considering
> asking the constitution be changed to allow Obama
> to run for a 3rd term in 2016.

That's stupid.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> People just tell you what you want to hear...to
> get you to shut up and get to work!

Vince - for me there is no point in telling lies or making up stories. The fact that you see a lie in everything I say tells a lot about you.

You have obviously built most of your life on lies - which is very likely tied to why you no longer work as a civil servant.

If all it takes is for a few ignorant but loud people to deprive us of decent healthcare, then we get what we deserve. The sad irony is that everyone gets sick and old one day, and the people that proudly participated in this bullying effort to shout down a reasonable discussion will realize they made a mistake.

Just give it 2 or 3 years, and you will hear from one of these so-called "patriots" about a health crisis in their family and how they now realize their mistake.

I just love it when so-called patriots don't want to pay for the civilized society they enjoy, and so-called Christians don't show an ounce of compassion to their fellow human beings as long as they are comfortable in their own life.

Sad and shameful.

Yeah, those ACORN folks who went into private banks and stood in the lobby shouting and waving signs, not allowing the bank to do business (free assembly in public places is fine, but doing so inside a place of business and disrupting that business is criminal) - what a bunch of bullies. Versus the folks that go to Town Hall meetings in public buildings and try to challenge their legislators (a right given to them by the Constitution) on why they are spending money they don't have, or not reading the legislation they are backing. Those people are so bad.

The Democrats wanted to ram this thing through without proper review or discussion. They are the ones to blame for this current issue. Maybe if they had gotten their message out, instead of just saying stupid things like John Conyers where he says he doesn't have time to read the Bill. Those are the people that set the stage for this reaction.

The "so-called" Christians fall on both sides of the political line.

You know I never heard of ACORN before this last election...If they did what you say, they should be arrested...just like your "outraged" actors...I mean citizens.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Yup, this guy is finished...unfortuneately, he will casts his "yes" vote
before he is thrown out.

Vince, you moron, you are such I liar...

and SO WHAT if conservatives use these tactics...moveon.org and other radical nuts use these and IT"S OK?????

Rock on conservatives!!

linda lou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Rock on conservatives!!


LOL. Yup. Now what group of people could possibly rock harder than conservative Americans?

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> linda lou Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Rock on conservatives!!
>
>
> LOL. Yup. Now what group of people could
> possibly rock harder than conservative Americans?


http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/40/223696.html

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL. Yup. Now what group of people could
> possibly rock harder than conservative Americans?



Conservative rocker.




Liberal rocker.

Meeper's Little Helper Wrote:
>
> Conservative rocker.


Oh I know that Johnny Ramone was a big Bush supporter. He argued this on Stern a few times. God bless the dude, rest in peace Johnny. But I really doubt he'd be a part of the birther/yeller crowd. Johnny was a cool guy. Too cool for the current state of GOP politics.

Birthers do not represent mainstream folks of any ilk. They are the equivalent of folks that believe Bush orchestrated 9/11 on the left (there is a video of some guy that makes tours explaining how explosives were placed and shows video where they were lit off to collapse the towers). These other folks that are going to Townhall discussions and asking angry questions are twofold - one is just a bunch of people that fed up with the government spending so much money they don't have, and some of the others are coming out as part of a group that want to have their say. There is some loose organization from local political groups who come, and sure, they are ready to jump in and make some noise.

The question is, why is the Whitehouse and Democrats spending so much time chastising folks protesting? Don't you think they could spend their time better getting their message out in other ways? The other thing is, at these Townhall meetings, the politicians come out and act as if they are about to lecture children on why they know what is best. They don't go in and say "Ok, let me hear your questions first", or "What kind of ideas do you have that you would like us to include or look at?" That would serve more to defuse the situation, because they would appear to be LISTENING. Instead, they come and pontificate.

Angry mobs were anarchists protesting WTO meetings, breaking windows, burning and destroying cars, clashing with police. Show me that happening today with these folks. I mean come on - Pelosi now thinks it is cute to call them AstroTurf. Seriously - the Democrats are acting like the public is the enemy - that is why they are seeing all this uproar.

Add the Roman Catholic church to groups formally opposed to Obama's plan. Why? = geriatric euthanasia.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Birthers do not represent mainstream folks of any ilk.



I agree. But it's about time that Steele steps up and puts the issue to rest.

Libertarian1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Add the Roman Catholic church to groups formally
> opposed to Obama's plan. Why? = geriatric
> euthanasia.

Well, probably the funding of abortion might have a larger issue in their opposition.

RV -

No doubt that abortion plays a large role here,but there is a diversity of opinion there even inside the RC church.

Geriatric euthanasia on the other hand isn't likely to find a lot of backing in any quarter. If we are going to do this thing we ought to at least be honest about what it is that we are about here.

The "euthanasia" provision doesn't exist in the bill.

On the other hand, the bill says they will pay for "counseling" (if so desired) no more often then every 5 years, or if some major health change comes about that requires the participant to look into planning such as DNR orders and such. The Bill does not (as of yet - sure it could be changed) say that you MUST go to planning sessions every 5 years, or at all. Whomever it is you go to for the consult.

So there has been some hype of this, but right now all the bill indicates is that it will amend Medicare, and also include in the new system, allowances to pay for those consultations. I know a lot of older folks (with money) that have DNRs, Living Wills, Medical Power of Attorney, etc.

EDIT: I love how I end up defending the bill - I don't even want it passed lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2009 10:49PM by Registered Voter.

LOL See you on the iceflow.

And here we go - first to violence, it appears to be supporters of the health care legislation.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/0470FEB3219207458625760B001142AC?OpenDocument

Quote

...
Two of those were arrested on suspicion of assault, one of resisting arrest and three on suspicion of committing peace disturbances. Carnahan was gone when the ruckus started.

Kenneth Gladney, a 38-year-old conservative activist from St. Louis, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with “Don't tread on me” printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room of the St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was waiting to be treated for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face that he suffered in the attack. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack started.

“It just seems there's no freedom of speech without being attacked,” he said.
...

Seems like an O'Reilly moment here. You tell your supporters that "Angry Mobs" are showing up. You tell your supporters to "punch back twice as hard"

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25891.html

Quote

...
They showed video clips of the confrontational town halls that have dominated the media coverage, and told senators to do more prep work than usual for their public meetings by making sure their own supporters turn out, senators and aides said.

And they screened TV ads and reviewed the various campaigns by critics of the Democratic plan.

“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” Messina said, according to an official who attended the meeting.
...

And then...

Quote

...
St. Louis County police on Thursday arrested at least four people, including a Post-Dispatch reporter, outside a town hall forum held by Rep. Russ Carnahan, said Dawn Majors, a Post-Dispatch photojournalist who witnessed everything unfold.
...
She said she saw a woman in handcuffs who was complaining about the pain of the spray and asking to wash her face and eyes. The response of the officer who was arresting her was, “I warned you,” Majors said.

Majors said the woman had been speaking very loudly and passionately in support of health-care reform earlier in the evening.

“She made herself very visible,” Majors said.

She also saw a man handcuffed and on his stomach. The man kept asking why he was being arrested, Majors said. An officer nearby said she wasn't the arresting officer, but she would let him know later. That response upset the man on the ground, she said.

Another man was sitting on the ground rubbing his knee, but was not handcuffed. Majors said she heard an officer tell him that he would be taken to jail and booked.
...

Yes, accusing the folks who are protesting of being "angry mobs" probably had a bit to do with this. Any of you here that complain about Bush calling NK "evil" should understand that might have some effect. Also starting to pack the room with your supporters before meetings is probably not the way to stifle an already frustrated crowd.

EDIT: Here is what these "angry mobs" do when they are not allowed inside after watching SEIU (and possibly ACORN) folks allowed in while others are kept outside. Funny how the public Townhalls have turned to invitation only....





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 02:39AM by Registered Voter.

\



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 10:43PM by Alias.

No discussion....



Hey, just because the Democrats managed to block legislation in the Senate for 6 years in the Senate doesn't mean no one tried to change things. The one word I will remember about the Senate from the Bush years is Filibuster. I seem to remember Obama telling folks to "...get in their faces..." when he ran for office. But now he is using rhetoric to justify ignoring freedom of speech.

Funny...Bush partenered more with Democrats to try and get his important legislation through then he did with republicans...No CHild Left Behind...Immigration. Remind me..what legislation did the Dems filibuster?

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 04:12PM by Vince(1).

You can go review all the bills that were passed in the House that were delayed, blocked, etc in the Senate.

Since I know how much you hate me to cut and paste.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can go review all the bills that were passed
> in the House that were delayed, blocked, etc in
> the Senate.
>
> Since I know how much you hate me to cut and
> paste.


That's called politics...if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Dems cooperated more with Bush then they should have...especially anything to do with his wars.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Vince, what are you talking about?

I have no problem with my statement - if you would like to prove me wrong, feel free. It might do you some good to read something other than "Highlights for Children".

Stop whining...Bush lost. He will go down as a failure!

While watching the news tonight it dawned on me what is fueling the healthcare rage...it's the nutty pro-lifers. They see healthcare as the way every poor women is going to have an abortion. The 2 issues have been tied together by rather devious republican politicos. This in effect makes going to the town alls life endangering events. The pro-lifers have proven themselves as radicals capable of killing anyone who disagrees with them.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Well, keep on having those "dawning" moments of yours. Off target as usual - but keep trying Vince.

Notice - he had this moment while watching the news. Subliminal messages? You obviously forgot your tinfoil hat again Vince...

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> While watching the news tonight it dawned on me
> what is fueling the healthcare rage...it's the
> nutty pro-lifers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2009 02:51AM by Registered Voter.

OPM - The Socialist Drug of Choice (2/19/09)
http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/ebalogh/2009/02/19/opm-the-socialist-drug-of-choice/

An interesting article, with a quote from Thatcher that lends some perspective

Quote

...
Marx wasn’t stupid, though, and surely recognized that in order to get his magical notions widely embraced, people would have to give up their traditional ideas of religiosity, since it is difficult if not impossible to maintain a belief in two, utterly conflicting religious faiths at the same time. Tragically, the true believers who swallowed the toxic claptrap Marx advanced have brought far more misery and brutality into the world than all the fundamentalist religious faiths of history combined. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot (to name a few of the most egregious examples), all held at their sociopolitical core the same pseudo-religious tenets that Marx proposed, and the staggering amount of death and torture those monsters precipitate dwarf, by several orders of magnitude, the suffering resultant from any religious beliefs. ( I know, some who are ignorant of history will object and say that Nazism and Fascism were Right-Wing movements. To them, I suggest they read Jonah Goldberg’s seminal book “Liberal Fascism” to learn the truth. The word Nazi was an acronym stemming from the German name for the National Socialist Party)

...

Though implementing Socialism is a lot less vicious, its adherents are equally devoted to totalitarianism - witness just one of myriad examples: the recent rumblings about imposing the Fairness Doctrine on Talk Radio. Consequently, it may actually be more insidious, since over a long period of time people gradually get used to its spirit-crushing effects until, like the proverbial frog in the pot of gradually boiling water, all their freedoms are lost.

Recently, I found a marvelous quote from Margaret Thatcher who wryly observed, “The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.” When I read that, it suddenly hit me that the pseudo-religion of Socialism is fast becoming the very real opiate of the masses. Big Government radicals like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are obsessed with redistributing “other people’s money” and are among the principal “pushers”, addicting enormous swaths of American society to the public dole. The very phrase, “other people’s money,” when made into the acronym OPM and said fast becomes “opium.” In modern Socialist societies it isn’t religion that narcotizes people, but rather OPM that renders people weak, helpless, and dependent on the State for their every need.
...

Democrat David Scott’s Town Hall Tirade
http://skepticians.com/democrat-david-scotts-town-hall-tirade/

Oops... this guy is going to have fun next election cycle...

Quote

...
Scott displayed his temper during a question-and-answer period when David Hill, a local resident and doctor, questioned the congressman over his support of President Barack Obama’s proposed single-payer health care system.

“Why are you voting for a health care plan that is shown not to work in Massachusetts and why are you going to institute that in a nation-wide manner?”

With a look of confusion on his face, the congressman first quietly asked an aide, “Is that the type of bill they got going on?” Then, reassured by staff that the bill Hill referenced was, in fact, the bill before Congress, Scott proceeded to respond, insomuch as the Congressman’s angry tirade may be called a response.

“I’m listening to my constituents, OK,” Scott said, with a heavy and awkward emphasis on “my.” “These are people who live in the 13th Congressional district, who vote in this district. That’s who I’ve got to respond to, OK. Right, alright.”

Grimacing and sternly brandishing his finger at Dr. Hill, Scott’s anger intensified, as did his rhetoric.

“So what you’ve got to understand, those of you who are here, who have taken and came and hijacked this event we dealing with here, this is not a health care event. You made the choice to come here and take advantage of this meeting that these people in Douglasville worked hard to put together to deal with this road,” Scott said, referencing the relocation of a local highway in Douglassville, GA.

“You chose to come and to do it on your own. Not a single one of you had the decency to call my office and set up for a meeting, OK. Do that. Do that!”

Local Atlanta NBC affiliate WXIA-TV reports that Hill, a verified resident of Georgia’s 13th district, has attempted, on multiple occasions and all in vain, to secure sit-downs with the incensed Congressman, however.

...

Scott’s veiled suggestion that the concerned doctor was not a “resident of Georgia’s 13th district”—ostensibly rooted in the fact that Hill is white, while Scott represents a district with a large African American population—and the contention that Hill had somehow “hijacked” the town hall is another matter altogether.
...

EDIT: The video. He's got the finger pointing down...





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2009 03:54AM by Registered Voter.

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

I drink my fluoridated water like I'm told to, and I don't have any problem with anything the government does.

They can invade countries, lie to me about the reason.

They can wiretap my phone lines, and lie about it, and deny it. I don't care.

They can torture people, and tell me they aren't doing it, and when it comes out that they really did torture people, I don't care.

They can secretly turn our country into a socialist state, so scary, by tricking us into electing a Kenyan citizen. I really don't care.

What are all the people who get upset drinking? Because I've been numbed into complacency by something in my diet or in the air.

Could it be that whatever compound we are all ingesting makes some angry while it makes the rest of us accepting of our fate?

Or is it not the air or water, but the airwaves?

Something has definitely been poisoned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2009 03:55AM by Thurston Moore.

]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 10:34PM by Alias.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Democrat David Scott’s Town Hall Tirade
> http://skepticians.com/democrat-david-scotts-town-
> hall-tirade/
>
> Oops... this guy is going to have fun next
> election cycle...
>
>
> ...
> Scott displayed his temper during a
> question-and-answer period when David Hill, a
> local resident and doctor, questioned the
> congressman over his support of President Barack
> Obama’s proposed single-payer health care system.
>
> “Why are you voting for a health care plan that is
> shown not to work in Massachusetts and why are you
> going to institute that in a nation-wide manner?”
>
> With a look of confusion on his face, the
> congressman first quietly asked an aide, “Is that
> the type of bill they got going on?” Then,
> reassured by staff that the bill Hill referenced
> was, in fact, the bill before Congress, Scott
> proceeded to respond, insomuch as the
> Congressman’s angry tirade may be called a
> response.
>
> “I’m listening to my constituents, OK,” Scott
> said, with a heavy and awkward emphasis on “my.”
> “These are people who live in the 13th
> Congressional district, who vote in this district.
> That’s who I’ve got to respond to, OK. Right,
> alright.”
>
> Grimacing and sternly brandishing his finger at
> Dr. Hill, Scott’s anger intensified, as did his
> rhetoric.
>
> “So what you’ve got to understand, those of you
> who are here, who have taken and came and hijacked
> this event we dealing with here, this is not a
> health care event. You made the choice to come
> here and take advantage of this meeting that these
> people in Douglasville worked hard to put together
> to deal with this road,” Scott said, referencing
> the relocation of a local highway in
> Douglassville, GA.
>
> “You chose to come and to do it on your own. Not a
> single one of you had the decency to call my
> office and set up for a meeting, OK. Do that. Do
> that!”
>
> Local Atlanta NBC affiliate WXIA-TV reports that
> Hill, a verified resident of Georgia’s 13th
> district, has attempted, on multiple occasions and
> all in vain, to secure sit-downs with the incensed
> Congressman, however.
>
> ...
>
> Scott’s veiled suggestion that the concerned
> doctor was not a “resident of Georgia’s 13th
> district”—ostensibly rooted in the fact that Hill
> is white, while Scott represents a district with a
> large African American population—and the
> contention that Hill had somehow “hijacked” the
> town hall is another matter altogether.
> ...
>
>
> EDIT: The video. He's got the finger pointing
> down...
>
>


Dont be so sure. It is always easy to get people out to demonstrate against something vs for something. The people who voted for Obama in November had to know they were voting for "change". This is real change! AFter all the dust is settled and democrats get back to work in September and pass a health reform bill that includes a single payer option (which most Americans support when not falsely associated with the scare tactic of your choices are being taken away)... these radical pro-lifers will crawl back into their caves. I ma sure an energized radical right response to in Nov 2010 will also energise the Obama base and the democratic loses will be minimal.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> On the other hand, the bill says they will pay for
> "counseling" (if so desired) no more often then
> every 5 years, or if some major health change
> comes about that requires the participant to look
> into planning such as DNR orders and such. The
> Bill does not (as of yet - sure it could be
> changed) say that you MUST go to planning sessions
> every 5 years, or at all. Whomever it is you go to
> for the consult.
>
> So there has been some hype of this, but right now
> all the bill indicates is that it will amend
> Medicare, and also include in the new system,
> allowances to pay for those consultations. I know
> a lot of older folks (with money) that have DNRs,
> Living Wills, Medical Power of Attorney, etc.
>
> EDIT: I love how I end up defending the bill - I
> don't even want it passed lol

A living will works both ways.

If Seniors are concerned about the vague wording in this bill and how it may result in rationing of care, there is a way to counter their fear.

Seniors, after discussing end of life care with their doctors (who will now be paid for this “service”), can simply inform their doctors that they intend to write, or re-write, their living will to include the following clause.

“If I arrive in a hospital terminally ill and incapacitated, I instruct the care facility and medical staff to prolong my life through any means available, regardless of cost.”

Problem solved.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, keep on having those "dawning" moments of
> yours. Off target as usual - but keep trying
> Vince.
>
> Notice - he had this moment while watching the
> news. Subliminal messages? You obviously forgot
> your tinfoil hat again Vince...
>
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > While watching the news tonight it dawned on me
> > what is fueling the healthcare rage...it's the
> > nutty pro-lifers.


I did not suggest any subliminal messages? If I am so easy to ridicule..Is there a reason you need to put words in my mouth?

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Hmm - where in that did I put words in your mouth? Too funny - you can't even argue your own point Vince - kind of like being "irreprehensible" as you mentioned in another thread. Lol.

RestonLass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> A living will works both ways.
>
> If Seniors are concerned about the vague wording
> in this bill and how it may result in rationing of
> care, there is a way to counter their fear.
>
> Seniors, after discussing end of life care with
> their doctors (who will now be paid for this
> “service”), can simply inform their doctors that
> they intend to write, or re-write, their living
> will to include the following clause.
>
> “If I arrive in a hospital terminally ill and
> incapacitated, I instruct the care facility and
> medical staff to prolong my life through any means
> available, regardless of cost.”
>
> Problem solved.

Came across this today so figured I would add it to the discussion. It lends a more credible air to why section 1233 could offer more problems than the Democrats are willing to admit.

From the Post:

Undue Influence
The House Bill Skews End-of-Life Counsel
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/07/AR2009080703043.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Quote

...
Enter Section 1233 of the health-care bill drafted in the Democratic-led House, which would pay doctors to give Medicare patients end-of-life counseling every five years -- or sooner if the patient gets a terminal diagnosis.

On the far right, this is being portrayed as a plan to force everyone over 65 to sign his or her own death warrant. That's rubbish. Federal law already bars Medicare from paying for services "the purpose of which is to cause, or assist in causing," suicide, euthanasia or mercy killing. Nothing in Section 1233 would change that.

Still, I was not reassured to read in an Aug. 1 Post article that "Democratic strategists" are "hesitant to give extra attention to the issue by refuting the inaccuracies, but they worry that it will further agitate already-skeptical seniors."

If Section 1233 is innocuous, why would "strategists" want to tip-toe around the subject?
ad_icon

Perhaps because, at least as I read it, Section 1233 is not totally innocuous.

Until now, federal law has encouraged end-of-life planning -- gently. In 1990, Congress required health-care institutions (not individual doctors) to give new patients written notice of their rights to make living wills, advance directives and the like -- but also required them to treat patients regardless of whether they have such documents.

The 1997 ban on assisted-suicide support specifically allowed doctors to honor advance directives. And last year, Congress told doctors to offer a brief chat on end-of-life documents to consenting patients during their initial "Welcome to Medicare" physical exam. That mandate took effect this year.

Section 1233, however, addresses compassionate goals in disconcerting proximity to fiscal ones. Supporters protest that they're just trying to facilitate choice -- even if patients opt for expensive life-prolonging care. I think they protest too much: If it's all about obviating suffering, emotional or physical, what's it doing in a measure to "bend the curve" on health-care costs?

Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren't quite "purely voluntary," as Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, "purely voluntary" means "not unless the patient requests one." Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive -- money -- to do so. Indeed, that's an incentive to insist.

Patients may refuse without penalty, but many will bow to white-coated authority. Once they're in the meeting, the bill does permit "formulation" of a plug-pulling order right then and there. So when Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.) denies that Section 1233 would "place senior citizens in situations where they feel pressured to sign end-of-life directives that they would not otherwise sign," I don't think he's being realistic.

What's more, Section 1233 dictates, at some length, the content of the consultation. The doctor "shall" discuss "advanced care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to"; "an explanation of . . . living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses" (even though these are legal, not medical, instruments); and "a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families." The doctor "shall" explain that Medicare pays for hospice care (hint, hint).

Admittedly, this script is vague and possibly unenforceable. What are "key questions"? Who belongs on "a list" of helpful "resources"? The Roman Catholic Church? Jack Kevorkian?
...

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University

As we saw with the Terri Schaivo debacle, there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to have a Living Will or designating a durable power of attorney. We spend too much money in this country on heroic health care measures that the patient may not even want.

As for the outrage, I imagine it is probably 50/50 fake and real. Fox News has been going 24/7 trying to spur outrage over health care reform. I'm sure there are lots of Joe the Plumbers in their 70s out there screaming about socialized medicine while sucking the teet of Medicare. This is the fallout of America having a shitty education system...most Americans are too fucking stupid to find out things for themselves. They have to listen to college drop-outs like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity who have never had any real responsibilities in their lives except to themselves.

I thought the NEA was the great arbiter of the education system. Who do you blame then? (Since I know Bill Maher was going on about how stupid America is).

I was looking into comparisons of our education system versus places like Japan - they go to school almost all year (240days vs 180days), they don't have near the issues we have with dropout rates and evaluation systems that sometimes encourages passing kids that can't read or write. The main problem I saw in looking at their system was you are given evaluation testing, and depending on your scores determine if you go on to vocational education or more advanced learning once you reach college age. In theory I don't mind that thought - except it seems that if you just can't take tests well you could be short changed even if you are very intelligent.

Even with all the money and changes to the school system, it isn't like we are seeing any kind of massive improvement in our ratings versus other countries. Also throw in that kids in private religious schools and most of the home schooled crowds score much higher in comparison. Might be time for the NEA, the department of education and others to re-evaluate how they are managing things. Instead of worrying so much about having PC text books, maybe they should worry more about how and what they are teaching the kids.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2009 07:17PM by Registered Voter.

Death Drugs Cause Uproar in Oregon:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1

Quote

The news from Barbara Wagner's doctor was bad, but the rejection letter from her insurance company was crushing.

The 64-year-old Oregon woman, whose lung cancer had been in remission, learned the disease had returned and would likely kill her. Her last hope was a $4,000-a-month drug that her doctor prescribed for her, but the insurance company refused to pay.

What the Oregon Health Plan did agree to cover, however, were drugs for a physician-assisted death. Those drugs would cost about $50.

...

A lifelong smoker, she was diagnosed with lung cancer in 2005 and quit. The state-run Oregon Health Plan generously paid for thousands of dollars worth of chemotherapy, radiation, a special bed and a wheelchair, according to Wagner.

The cancer went into remission, but in May, Wagner found it had returned. Her oncologist prescribed the drug Tarceva to slow its growth, giving her another four to six months to live. But under the insurance plan, she can the only receive "palliative" or comfort care, because the drug does not meet the "five-year, 5 percent rule" -- that is, a 5 percent survival rate after five years.
...

Oregon Government Health Care site:
http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/hsp/about_us.shtml

The woman doesn't believe in assisted suicide - the doctor prescribed the medication which would help with her pain and possibly extend her life by 6 months or more.

I like this later quote - it puts the whole discussion in perspective:

Quote

...
The health plan, for those whose incomes fall under the poverty level, prioritizes coverage -- from prevention first, to chronic disease management, treatment of mental health, heart and cancer treatment.

"It's challenging because health care is very expensive, but that's not the real essence of our priority list," said Dr. Jeanene Smith, administrator for the Office of for Oregon's Health Policy and Research staff.

"We need evidence to say it is a good use of taxpayer's dollars," she said. "It may be expensive, but if it does wonders, we cover it."

The state also regularly evaluates and updates approvals for cancer treatments. "We look as exhaustively as we can with good peer review evidence," she said.

The health plan takes "no position" on the physician-assisted suicide law, according to spokesman Jim Sellers.

The terminally ill who qualify can receive pain medication, comfort and hospice care, "no matter what the cost," he said.

But Sellers acknowledged the letter to Wagner was a public relations blunder and something the state is "working on."

"Now we have to review to ensure sensitivity and clarity," Sellers told ABCNews.com "Not only is the patient receiving had news, but insensitivity on top of that. This is something that requires the human touch."

Sellers said that from now on insurance officials will likely "pick up the phone and have a conversation," he said.

But a 1998 study from Georgetown University's Center for Clinical Bioethics found a strong link between cost-cutting pressures on physicians and their willingness to prescribe lethal drugs to patients -- were it legal to do so.
...

If they want people to believe in having a government run health plan, then the decision needs to be made by the patient and the doctor, not administrators. In many cases folks may choose to go with assisted suicide, but it should not be forced on them by a physician (as the study indicates) or by an administrator or whomever processes the claim - who then offers assisted suicide as the option they will pay for. Sure, this lady was a victim of her own behavior through the years - but I thought all the lawsuits against the tobacco companies was supposed to supply funding to treat these folks. This won't play well for the argument in favor of government run health insurance.

If you can’t model the past, where you know the answer pretty well, how can you model the future? - William Happer Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics Princeton University



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2009 08:08PM by Registered Voter.

Schools suck because they are managed locally by school boards composed of people with no background in education. The reason why U.S. schools lag the rest of the industrialized world has nothing to do with teacher unions. Do you really think France, which kicks our ass academically, has weaker teacher unions than the U.S.?

The problem with American education is that it is not run by the Federal government, as it is in virtually every other country in the world that beats us academically. When you have centralized control of education, you make sure that kids in Mississippi are learning from the same textbook and lesson plans as kids in Minnesota.

In addition, kids in countries like France, Singapore and India are expected to learn Physics and Chemistry...taught be educators with backgrounds in Physics and Chemistry. Physics and Chemistry teachers in the U.S. all have the same name..."Coach." No fucking wonder we are falling behind.

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schools suck because they are managed locally by
> school boards composed of people with no
> background in education. The reason why U.S.
> schools lag the rest of the industrialized world
> has nothing to do with teacher unions. Do you
> really think France, which kicks our ass
> academically, has weaker teacher unions than the
> U.S.?
>
> The problem with American education is that it is
> not run by the Federal government, as it is in
> virtually every other country in the world that
> beats us academically. When you have centralized
> control of education, you make sure that kids in
> Mississippi are learning from the same textbook
> and lesson plans as kids in Minnesota.
>
> In addition, kids in countries like France,
> Singapore and India are expected to learn Physics
> and Chemistry...taught be educators with
> backgrounds in Physics and Chemistry. Physics and
> Chemistry teachers in the U.S. all have the same
> name..."Coach." No fucking wonder we are falling
> behind.


Teacher Unions are a huge problem though. They force memberships upon educators, and then they push a certain Partisan ideal which their members are supposed to like, and live up to.

Also, we have far too many hours and school days now built into most of our systems. There is a mightily flawed belief that more schools days somehow equals a better education, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. There needs to be more break periods throughout the year, pay needs to be GREATLY increased in locales such as Ffx. Co., and we need to begin showing our Educators the proper respect that their profression deserves.

BTW, you seem to not realize how much certification and re-certification many of our teachers must go through on a constant basis throughout their careers. In many areas, especially in my experience with FCPS, the vast majority of teachers are more then qualified for the subject which they teach.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Though not mandatory, as some on the right have
> claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section
> 1233 aren't quite "purely voluntary," as Rep.
> Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, "purely
> voluntary" means "not unless the patient requests
> one." Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate
> the chat and gives them an incentive -- money --
> to do so. Indeed, that's an incentive to insist.

Apparently this section is uneccessary -- when my mother was at Washington Hospital Center, the nursing staff in the ICU pretty much called in the palliative care doctor. Sure, they could probably claim that they just strongly urged us to ask for it, but strongly urging us to talk to a palliative care doctor standing outside her hospital room is still calling in the palliative care doc whether we wanted it or not. That was one of the reasons we pulled her out that hospital and had her transferred to Georgetown.


>
> Patients may refuse without penalty, but many will
> bow to white-coated authority. Once they're in the
> meeting, the bill does permit "formulation" of a
> plug-pulling order right then and there. So when
> Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.) denies that Section
> 1233 would "place senior citizens in situations
> where they feel pressured to sign end-of-life
> directives that they would not otherwise sign," I
> don't think he's being realistic.
>

Screw that. Both of my parents created living wills, advanced directives, durable powers of attorneys and all sorts of other legally binding documents years ago through their private wealth manager at Morgan Stanley.

When the palliative care doctor at WHC tried to convince us that her wishes may have changed since being put on a respirator, I spoke up right way -- "I am legally obligated to follow the directives she very intentionally put in writing in a legal document." He tried to keep arguing, saying, "but I see this all the time, people change their minds, and when they are in pain they often want to be allowed to die". My response to that was "the nurse asks her every 2 hours if she is in pain, and she always nods 'no'. Besides, she had the advance directive and living will legal documents written exactly to prevent someone in her family being strong armed into allowing end of life decisions be made by some palliative care doctor". Sort of shut down all further discussion.

She had exceeded the first stage of her alloted medicare days in hospital, and WHC was now getting a reduced amount from Medicare. Funny how money already comes into the equation. Once they make less off a patient, they start talking about "maybe it's time to let go".

I'm still considering driving my mother back to WHC one of these days and have her walk into the ICU and the palliative care doctor's office with her stroller, so she can tell them to go fuck themselves and thank them for trying to stop caring for her so she could be dead already.

> What's more, Section 1233 dictates, at some
> length, the content of the consultation. The
> doctor "shall" discuss "advanced care planning,
> including key questions and considerations,
> important steps, and suggested people to talk to";
> "an explanation of . . . living wills and durable
> powers of attorney, and their uses" (even though
> these are legal, not medical, instruments); and "a
> list of national and State-specific resources to
> assist consumers and their families." The doctor
> "shall" explain that Medicare pays for hospice
> care (hint, hint).
>
> Admittedly, this script is vague and possibly
> unenforceable. What are "key questions"? Who
> belongs on "a list" of helpful "resources"? The
> Roman Catholic Church? Jack Kevorkian?
> ...
>

Lawyers, accountants and doctors. All of whom work for the hospital. At least, that's how it works right now.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I work in an office of all conservatives...

lol thats not fair vince, everyone is conservative to you :P

Kenny_Powers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I work in an office of all conservatives...
>
> lol thats not fair vince, everyone is conservative
> to you :P


To be fair, there are people on the extremist right who assume that if you don't agree with them 100%, you're a liberal.

I've been called a liberal many times. I guess since I don't faithfully listen to talk radio and watch FNC, I am more liberal than they are.

What's funny is that "all conservatives" or "all liberals" is a boogeyman statement -- Only the extreme fringes on either end of the spectrum are all of any political ideology. The rest have varying views and opinions. We call all of the rest, RATIONAL PEOPLE.

You can be conservative on every talking point and hot button issue except for one, and if you mention that one that you disagree with, you're a liberal. Probably an American Hating commie socialist who wants to destroy America. You can be a liberal on every talking point and hot button issue except for one, and if you mention that one that you disagree with, you're a right wing fascist racist who wants to destory America by allowing the muslims to invade our country in order to force abortions on every woman when she reaches puberty.

The divide and conquer strategy extends to within the party, too.

Unfortunately for the party elite, that is their bridge too far. This is what is causing many people to opt out of all the bullshit, and flock to third and fourth and whatever parties. That is why there are more libertarians and independents now than there ever was.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2009 01:45AM by Thurston Moore.

LOL,

Protesters demand justice for man injured at health care town hall

http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics/story/1373035.html


Some idiot shows up at a town hall meeting to yell about health reform. He gets into a brawl and ends up getting injured. And now he's asking for donations toward his medical expenses- because he doesn't have health insurance.

Now that's just funny.

this is unbelievable all those loud mouth hicks