Thought this was interesting....

"The Pentagon may have issued top-secret clearances last year to as many as one-in-four applicants who had 'significant derogatory information' in their backgrounds, including record of foreign influence or criminal conduct, a little-noticed government audit says."....

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/04/pentagon-audit-finds-flaws-in-clearances/





"Records of foreign influence".... yikes

The gov't is soooo behind on people's background checks, it's scary. A relative works for a certain agency and he/she has stated that we'd be appalled at the people that get hired without proper background checks. The hire gets rushed through to fill the position and the background check is sometimes completed a year later. And these aren't janitors they're hiring, it's for some highly classified stuff. WTF?

Bureaucracy at it's finest.

The entire security clearance apparatus has been seriously flawed for years
and I have complained to the Congress about it many times. When I received
my Final Top Secret/Crypto clearance over 40 years ago, there was a requirement
that you be at least a third-generation natural born American Citizen in order
for the FBI to even start the paperwork. When I discovered that the requirement
had been dropped several years ago I began calling and writing Senator
John Warner's office to voice my deep concerns to no avail. In fact, one of
his staffers, Lincoln Jefferies, bluntly informed me that such a requirement
is discriminatory against non-third generation Citizens. I thought he was
full of shit then and still do. I also have contacted the Washington Post
and Times to discuss the matter but was told it just wasnt a big enough story
to justify researching the article. At least the Times has pulled their heads
out of their asses. Thank you for posting.

3rd generation rule appears to be nothing but xenophobic.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Wow, another brilliant quote from Vince.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being vague is almost as fun as that other thing.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3rd generation rule appears to be nothing but
> xenophobic.

Utterly clueless . VInce is one of the reasons why we will all br speaking Chinese in 10-15 yrs.

Requiring someone to be a third-generation citizen is a completely stupid idea, and wouldn't solve any national security concerns. There are just as many trustworthy third generation Americans as there are people whose grandparents came to the US 80 years ago from Europe. I agree with Vince, it's totally xenophobic.

The real problem: there is entirely too much information nowadays that is getting marked as classified. I'm betting 10-15 years ago, half this crap would have never been marked anything more than "sensitive".

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Requiring someone to be a third-generation citizen
> is a completely stupid idea, and wouldn't solve
> any national security concerns. There are just as
> many trustworthy third generation Americans as
> there are people whose grandparents came to the US
> 80 years ago from Europe. I agree with Vince,
> it's totally xenophobic.
>
> The real problem: there is entirely too much
> information nowadays that is getting marked as
> classified. I'm betting 10-15 years ago, half
> this crap would have never been marked anything
> more than "sensitive".

I totally disagree. The reason for the third generation requirement was to
lessen the possibility of compromise due to allegiances that may be held
to ones country of origin or ties that may still remain. The use of the term
"xenophobic" is nothing more than a liberal limp-ass excuse to give away
sensitive information to third-world spies and terrorists in the name of
political correctness. There is no shortage of third-generation citizens
who can meet that requirement and there is no reason not to reinstate
the previous policy. If the requirement had remained in place, there
would have been no need for the Washington Times article.

As far as Vinces comments, once again, he spouts opinions on subjects he
knows nothing about but thats normal. Under the previous policies,
draft dodgers were not granted clearances either, not even
at the Confidential level.

Wen Ho Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>> There is no shortage of third-generation citizens


LOL, when's the last time you had to hire someone with a very specific skill set and a TS clearance?


I couldn't imagine your idea working. Suppose the person needing the clearance was 60 years old? Most likely they're great-grandparents were born in the 1800's. How the heck would investigators be able to go back prove the great-grandparents were born in the US?

It's just a stupid idea, and that's why they don't do that, and never will.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wen Ho Lee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >>> There is no shortage of third-generation
> citizens
>
>
> LOL, when's the last time you had to hire someone
> with a very specific skill set and a TS
> clearance?
>
>
> I couldn't imagine your idea working. Suppose the
> person needing the clearance was 60 years old?
> Most likely they're great-grandparents were born
> in the 1800's. How the heck would investigators
> be able to go back prove the great-grandparents
> were born in the US?
>
> It's just a stupid idea, and that's why they don't
> do that, and never will.

My great-grandparents birth and death records are available in State,
local, and Federal archives. Also, their marriage records and military
records are very easily found too. Why would it be too difficult for
investigators to do the research? I would gladly tell where the records
may be found.

If I want to trace my ancestry, records are easily found. Here is one example:

http://www.dmwv.org/honoring/other.htm

I can take this all the way back to the Indian Wars in Tennessee and the
American Revolution. I'd gladly give the links to the FBI if they needed
proof. I guess this is an advantage of having ancestors who were married
and didnt run and hide from military service.

>>> Why would it be difficult for investigators to do the research?


Go back and re-read the article- they can't even get stuff straight when it comes to recent criminal backgrounds! You really think it'll make things easier for them if they had to go looking for 100+ year old documentation on a bunch of meaningless people.

Whether your family was here for the "indian wars" or not is irrelevant. You could still be some fucked up loser that is susceptible to being blackmailed or is financially desperate enough to sell classified information. You really think thry're going to automatically trust you more once they are 100% certain that great-grandma was born in TN in the year 1878?

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Why would it be difficult for investigators
> to do the research?
>
>
> Go back and re-read the article- they can't even
> get stuff straight when it comes to recent
> criminal backgrounds! You really think it'll make
> things easier for them if they had to go looking
> for 100+ year old documentation on a bunch of
> meaningless people.
>
> Whether your family was here for the "indian wars"
> or not is irrelevant. You could still be some
> fucked up loser that is susceptible to being
> blackmailed or is financially desperate enough to
> sell classified information. You really think
> thry're going to automatically trust you more once
> they are 100% certain that great-grandma was born
> in TN in the year 1878?


It didnt stop there. The third generation requirement was first on the list
because if you couldnt prove it, there was no need for them to continue. A history of debt, homosexuality, or a juvenile record could disqualify you
also. That still doesnt stop everything but at least it reduces the chance of compromise. The FBI also visited my old high school and talked to the principal and two of my former teachers. Then, they went to the local Police Chief and the County Sheriff. They also visited my neighborhood and talked with neighbors
about my overall character. There was no advance notice of their visits
and the neighbors who didnt know I had just joined the Army thought
I may be in some sort of trouble so they called my parents to ask what
I'd done to warrant investigation. The only people they didnt talk to
were my parents and close friends. Fortunately, the Army Recruiter had
warned my parents of the nature of the investigation the day I signed the
papers. I was only 17 so they had to co-sign for me. A few years later, I
went through an upgrade for Top Secret/Cosmic and the requirements were
even more stringent.

Out of curiousity, what decade are you talking about when you claim that the clearance required a "third generation American"? I just bumped into our facility security officer, and he said he never heard of that, and this guy had been around forever.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out of curiousity, what decade are you talking
> about when you claim that the clearance required a
> "third generation American"? I just bumped into
> our facility security officer, and he said he
> never heard of that, and this guy had been around
> forever.

Mine was conducted in July of 66. Top Secret/Crypto for access to COMINT.
(Army Security Agency) The COSMIC clearance was for access to White House Communications Agency although I didnt complete it. They wanted me to
re-enlist for 6 more years for that assignment but after four years Active
Duty I'd done my share and wanted to go home.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out of curiousity, what decade are you talking
> about when you claim that the clearance required a
> "third generation American"? I just bumped into
> our facility security officer, and he said he
> never heard of that, and this guy had been around
> forever.

Forgot to ask, was your facility security officer involved in Communications
Intelligence? If not, he may not have known the requirements.

I'm not sure, and I'm afraid to pull up his resume for fear he'd show up here minutes later asking why I'm doing that, lol... he was some kind of army officer though, I know that

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure, and I'm afraid to pull up his resume
> for fear he'd show up here minutes later asking
> why I'm doing that, lol... he was some kind of
> army officer though, I know that

Ah yes, he may not appreciate your doing a "background check" without
authorization. You are right when you say

"Whether your family was here for the "indian wars" or not is irrelevant. You could still be some fucked up loser that is susceptible to being blackmailed or is financially desperate enough to sell classified information. You really think thry're going to automatically trust you more once they are 100% certain that great-grandma was born in TN in the year 1878?"

No amount of background requirements are going to prevent everything. It does
sound like the clearance process is a mess and needs to be cleaned up
immediately.

I only found out about this incident a few years ago as I had left "Detatchment
Schneeberg in 1969 and I was broken hearted to find out what had happened later.

James Hall III
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please improve this article if you can. (October 2008)

James W. Hall, III is a former United States Army warrant officer and intelligence analyst in Germany who sold eavesdropping and code secrets to East Germany and the Soviet Union from 1983 to 1988. Hall was convicted of espionage on July 20, 1989; he was fined $50,000 and given a dishonorable discharge and is currently serving a 40-year sentence for those activities at the United States Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

Hall was assigned to the NSA Field Station Berlin Teufelsberg, one of the premier listening posts of the cold war, between 1982-1985 and he spied for both East Germany and the Soviet Union. Between 1983 and 1988, Hall betrayed hundreds of military secrets, which includes the Project Trojan, a worldwide electronic network with the ability to pinpoint armored vehicles, missiles and aircraft by recording their signal emissions during wartime.[1]

Hall sometimes spent up to two hours of his workday reproducing classified documents to provide to the Soviets and East Germans. Concerned that he was not putting in his regular duty time, he consistently worked late to complete his regular assignments.

Using his illegal income, Hall paid cash for a brand new Volvo and a new truck. He also made a large down payment on a home and took flying lessons. He is said to have given his military colleagues at least six conflicting stories to explain his lavish life style. In 1986, Hall was stationed at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, and was returning to Germany. He was also applying for an appointment as a Warrant Officer. As a part of the routine background investigation associated with the warrant appointment, one of his supervisors, a major (Hall was, at the time, a Staff Sergeant), commented to the investigator that he found it strange that Hall could drive a car, the Volvo, that the major couldn't afford. The major went on to explain that he had, himself, asked Hall about this apparent dichotomy. Hall responded that he had a wealthy aunt who died and left him a large trust from which he received $30,000 annually. The major found the story plausible but reiterated it to the investigators during their visit with him. The investigators thanked the major for the information and told him they already knew about the "trust." Hall's co-workers were fully taken in by his duplicity and his unusual activities never drew much attention. He was the epitome of a hard-working non-commissioned officer.

After returning from Germany to the U.S., he traveled to Vienna, Austria, to meet with his Soviet handler. His co-workers wondered why he would re-enlist, and become a warrant officer, after several times conveying to them his dissatisfaction with army life. Of course, the Warrant Officer rank allowed him greater access to classified material.

During his tour at Detachment Schneeberg, an intelligence gathering outpost on what was the East-West German border during the "Cold War," Hall seemed to have a generally good working relationship with his associates, but would sometimes erupt and become upset over trivial day-to-day problems. Hall also associated with several "foreigners," thought to be Turks, at a club called Reissmann's, in Bischofsgrun, West Germany, the local hang-out for the GI's that worked on Schneeberg.

Hall was eventually arrested on December 21, 1988 in Savannah, Georgia, after bragging to an undercover FBI agent that over a period of six years he had sold Top Secret intelligence data to East Germany and the Soviet Union. At the time, Hall believed that he was speaking to a Soviet contact. During this conversation he claimed that he had been motivated only by money. He told the FBI agent posing as a Soviet intelligence officer, "I wasn't terribly short of money. I just decided I didn't ever want to worry where my next dollar was coming from. I'm not anti-American. I wave the flag as much as anybody else."

The case against Hall apparently began based on a tip from a Central Intelligence Agency source inside the East German Government. Officials said this source defected to the West and is in hiding.[2]

After his arrest, Hall said there were many indicators visible to those around him that he was involved in questionable activity. Hall's activities inflicted grave damage on U.S. signals intelligence and he is considered the "perpetrator of one of the most costly and damaging breaches of security of the long Cold War"[3]

Hall confessed to giving his handlers information on the U.S. Military Liaison Mission (USMLM)'s tank photography on New Year's Eve in 1984. [4] On March 24, 1985, while on a legal inspection tour of Soviet military facilities in Ludwigslust, German Democratic Republic, US Army Major Arthur D. Nicholson, Jr., an unarmed member of the USMLM, was shot to death by a Soviet sentry.

Remarkably, Hall believes himself only to be "a treasonous bastard, not a Cold War spy."[5]

The FBI also arrested Huseyin Yildirim, a Turk who served as a conduit between Hall and East German intelligence officers. Hall received over $100,000 in payments.

Wen Ho Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> blah blah blah

Step into my office, son, and I'll show you how to link to articles.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

FYI:

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/

As you can see from these decisions, the process is highly subjective. They use a whole person concept; meaning a person's redeeming characteristics can overcome derogatory information.

Since the level of clearance we are talking about requires a five-year update/re-adjudication, whatever could have been missed will be found. I think this article is a little on the sensational side.

BTW, the Department of Defense has the lowest standards for clearances, there are people working at DOD that would never have been looked at by the NSA, CIA, Department of Energy, etc.

Furfur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FYI:
>
> http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/
>
> As you can see from these decisions, the process
> is highly subjective. They use a whole person
> concept; meaning a person's redeeming
> characteristics can overcome derogatory
> information.
>
> Since the level of clearance we are talking about
> requires a five-year update/re-adjudication,
> whatever could have been missed will be found. I
> think this article is a little on the sensational
> side.
>
> BTW, the Department of Defense has the lowest
> standards for clearances, there are people working
> at DOD that would never have been looked at by the
> NSA, CIA, Department of Energy, etc.

Good info Furfur, and thanks for posting. I havent been able to find
much on current requirements and this adds another piece of the puzzle.
There have been many instances of clearances being granted to people
who should not have been so much as interviewed for one in the first
place and its been a subject of deep concern of mine for many years.

This is a good example of a "non-third-generation" clearance being
granted that received a lot of publicity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee

Just posted a link so MrMephisto wouldnt wet his pants.

Wen Ho Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just posted a link so MrMephisto wouldnt wet his
> pants.

Too late, I wet my pants anyway. :(

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

I think Wen Ho Lee just wants to feel special. He doesn't want the process "watered down" because then his clearance doesn't mean as much.

Instead, he'd rather deny people that were born and raised in the US job opportunities. And under his terms, I believe that would include me as my maternal grandfather was born in Montreal and my maternal grandmother was born in Paris - and they only lived in the US long enough for my grandfather to complete his PhD.

It is that kind of mentality that creates dissent when we should be encouraging inclusion. We are afterall a country of immigrants. Or would you prefer a series of riots like the ones we saw in France?

Genevieve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Wen Ho Lee just wants to feel special. He
> doesn't want the process "watered down" because
> then his clearance doesn't mean as much.
>
> Instead, he'd rather deny people that were born
> and raised in the US job opportunities. And under
> his terms, I believe that would include me as my
> maternal grandfather was born in Montreal and my
> maternal grandmother was born in Paris - and they
> only lived in the US long enough for my
> grandfather to complete his PhD.
>
> It is that kind of mentality that creates dissent
> when we should be encouraging inclusion. We are
> afterall a country of immigrants. Or would you
> prefer a series of riots like the ones we saw in
> France?


LOL! Awwww, Do you feel "victimized"? In case you didnt notice, the
requirements are supposed to reduce the chances of sensitive defense
information being compromised. I'll have to take your comments with a grain
of salt as you have not participated in this thread previously and obviously
have no knowledge of such matters. If all you have to contribute is
PC/BS whining I'd suggest you pay more attention to the soccer mom thread.

BTW, which French riots are you talking about? I cant remember a time
in which they were NOT rioting about something. If you Google French+riots
you get over 2-1/2 million hits.

I have a French Army rifle for sale. Never fired and only dropped once.

Wen Ho Lee Wrote:
>
>>> the requirements are supposed to reduce the chances of sensitive defense information being compromised.


Yeah which is why they don't waste time checking to make sure people comply with some retarded "3rd Generation American" policy. It's stupid and has nothing to do with reducing the chances of someone being paid off, coerced, or ego-tripping their way into compromising security. The only dumbasses who think up stupid shit like that are out-of-touch jerkoffs who think just because some distant relative lived here 150 years ago, they are somehow more "American" than others-- when in fact, all it really makes you is some dumb fucking redneck.

Wen Ho Lee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> LOL! Awwww, Do you feel "victimized"?

No, should I?


> the requirements are supposed to reduce the chances of
> sensitive defense
> information being compromised.

Really? I never thought of that. I thought security clearances were to make sure you wouldn't steal paperclips from the office.

I'll have to take
> your comments with a grain
> of salt as you have not participated in this
> thread previously and obviously
> have no knowledge of such matters.

My brother has a security clearance and I've been prepared for the process by a potential employer.

If all you have
> to contribute is
> PC/BS whining I'd suggest you pay more attention
> to the soccer mom thread.
>

Pot calling the kettle black?


> BTW, which French riots are you talking about? I
> cant remember a time
> in which they were NOT rioting about something. If
> you Google French+riots
> you get over 2-1/2 million hits.
>

Oooh look, you can use google! Congratulations! We are discussing immigration, so what riots would be relevant?

> I have a French Army rifle for sale. Never fired
> and only dropped once.

Seriously, can you try being a little more creative with your jokes?

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wen Ho Lee Wrote:
> >
> >>> the requirements are supposed to reduce the
> chances of sensitive defense information being
> compromised.
>
>
> Yeah which is why they don't waste time checking
> to make sure people comply with some retarded "3rd
> Generation American" policy. It's stupid and has
> nothing to do with reducing the chances of someone
> being paid off, coerced, or ego-tripping their
> way into compromising security. The only
> dumbasses who think up stupid shit like that are
> out-of-touch jerkoffs who think just because some
> distant relative lived here 150 years ago, they
> are somehow more "American" than others-- when in
> fact, all it really makes you is some dumb fucking
> redneck.


Meeper, since you started this thread, I thought you may have read the first
paragraph in the article you linked:

"The Pentagon may have issued top-secret clearances last year to as many as one-in-four applicants who had "significant derogatory information" in their backgrounds, including a record of foreign influence or criminal conduct, a little- noticed government audit says."

Notice it says "RECORD OF FOREIGN INFLUENCE". Now what do you suppose they
meant by that? You need to get your tongue out of Vince's ear and catch up
too.

>> FOREIGN INFLUENCE". Now what do you suppose they meant by that?



I can think of alot of realistic cases of foreign influence... posessing a foreign passport, accepting educational or medical benefits from a foreign govt., failure to disclose that you once worked as a consultant for a foreign govt., concealing your identity when traveling abroad, socializing with a known foreign intelligence officer, etc. There are plenty of potential signs of foreign influence. And none of them have anything to do with good ol' great grandma playing cowboys and Indians back during the Grover Cleveland administration.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> FOREIGN INFLUENCE". Now what do you suppose
> they meant by that?
>
>
>
> I can think of alot of realistic cases of foreign
> influence... posessing a foreign passport,
> accepting educational or medical benefits from a
> foreign govt., failure to disclose that you once
> worked as a consultant for a foreign govt.,
> concealing your identity when traveling abroad,
> socializing with a known foreign intelligence
> officer, etc. There are plenty of potential signs
> of foreign influence. And none of them have
> anything to do with good ol' great grandma playing
> cowboys and Indians back during the Grover
> Cleveland administration.


Meeper, everything you mentioned are things that would have violated
the requirements for being granted a clearance. As far as nothing to
do with great grandma, I have no allegiance to, nor am I susceptible to
anyones governments influence other than my own. The Scots-Irish
have a long history of adversarial relationships with the British
too and voted with their feet in the 1730's.

Genevieve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> blah blah blah I don't know what I'm talking about blah blah blah


I don't think a designer at "National Electronics Warranty" has any business talking about security clearances.

Seriously, you don't have a clue, and every post reveals what a dumb ugly bitch you are.

Wow- what a big fucking tough-guy you must be in real life. Now why don't you go call your mom and pop and tell them how proud you are to be a man.


4 Ms. Stidman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Genevieve Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > blah blah blah I don't know what I'm talking
> about blah blah blah
>
>
> I don't think a designer at "National Electronics
> Warranty" has any business talking about security
> clearances.
>
> Seriously, you don't have a clue, and every post
> reveals what a dumb ugly bitch you are.

4 Ms. Stidman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Genevieve Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> I don't think a designer at "National Electronics
> Warranty" has any business talking about security
> clearances.

You're right. I should just let all of the dinosaurs (not in terms of age, but in the inability to adapt) continue doing things the way they were always done. Because obviously, everything is so perfect now.

4 Ms. Stidman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't think a designer at "National Electronics
> Warranty" has any business talking about security
> clearances.
>
> Seriously, you don't have a clue, and every post
> reveals what a dumb ugly bitch you are.

Wow, you're a fucking tool.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being vague is almost as fun as that other thing.

4 Ms. Stidman Wrote:
> > blah blah blah I don't know what I'm talking
> about blah blah blah
>
>
> I don't think a designer at "National Electronics
> Warranty" has any business talking about security
> clearances.
>
> Seriously, you don't have a clue, and every post
> reveals what a dumb ugly bitch you are.


Oooo..we got a tough guy here.
Attachments:

The rest of us act like assholes and deserve some shit talk every now and then, but Genevieve does not. She's usually never anything but nice on here.

Good job being Asshole of the Day, "4 Ms."

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

4 Ms. Stidman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think a designer at "National Electronics
> Warranty" has any business talking about security
> clearances.
>
> Seriously, you don't have a clue, and every post
> reveals what a dumb ugly bitch you are.
Attachments:

Is being truly and really American is tied to one's bloodline?

I think it's more along the lines of if you have a few generations of family in the country you are somewhat less likely to give away national secrets that can jeopardize their lives and well being. That's not all of it as some can be bought for that, but there it is.

Security clearances are worthless. Just about all of the top foreign spies had Top Secret clearances and they were third generation or more Americans. Security clearances are just a starting point to eliminate the obvious.

Clean Wrote:
>>Just about all of the top foreign spies had Top Secret clearances


True, but they would not have been "spies" if they were in a position where they didn't have access to classified material.



>>> Security clearances are worthless.

Not when they're listed on your resume. :))

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clean Wrote:
> >>Just about all of the top foreign spies had Top
> Secret clearances
>
>
> True, but they would not have been "spies" if they
> were in a position where they didn't have access
> to classified material.
>
>
>
> >>> Security clearances are worthless.
>
> Not when they're listed on your resume. :))


Nail on the head. When I applied for my Fed job, they saw my resume and
said, "This is great, we wont have to run a complete TS on you and we
only have to fill in a few months of a gap for re-activation." They hired
me on the spot and it saved them quite a bit of money in the process.
Even if you are applying for a job that doesnt require a clearance,
it still looks great on your resume because they know you've been behaving yourself.

Should this guy have a clearance... Clearances don't stop spying.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090612/ap_on_re_us/us_marines_stolen_files