Can the park police, the secret service, and those generic "POLICE" -- that I presume are doing facility security patrols of areas with federal offices -- pull over drivers on state and county roads?

About a week ago, I was driving in McLean, down 123. I had been sitting behind this moron in a volvo who was doing 35 right next to a car in the right lane. At the light at Old Dominion, when it turned green, the car in the right lane started off slow enough that I was able to jump over to the right lane in front of J Gilberts, and I floored it and honked my horn as I passed the idiot left lane scofflaw. I probably got up to about 60 mph as I looked in my rear view mirror and saw a car that was about 4 cars behind me jump over into the right lane, and immediately recognized the tell-tale square headlights and distinct yellow side markers, and took my foot off the gas. By the time he got up on my tailgate, I was already back down to about 40 mph. He sat behind me for a few seconds, then moved into the left lane, and drove next to me for another second or two, long enough to notice he was a Park Police K9 Officer, and then he gunned his engine and sped off down 123.

8 years ago when I had a clear driving record, I used to speed past the secret service on 123 between the CIA and downtown McLean all the time, and only once had a guy flip his lights on for a second and turn them off again, I guess to scare me.

But I'm just wondering if they could pull you over if they really wanted to, or if they care in the first place. I suspect the several times I've encountered any sort of reaction for my aggressive driving with the federal police agencies, they are just trying to show some muscle because they're cops, but really don't want to be bothered (or maybe aren't even jurisdictionally allowed to enforce traffic laws)

I know in downtown DC, all of them can enforce traffic laws, but that is because of specific legislation enacted in the early 90's (even the public housing security can patrol all of DC)

Anyone know any specifics?

Pull you over - yes.

Give you a ticket, not likely. But if you are doing something they consider bad enough they can pull you over and hold you until they call a local cop to give you one.

Registered Voter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pull you over - yes.
>
> Give you a ticket, not likely. But if you are
> doing something they consider bad enough they can
> pull you over and hold you until they call a local
> cop to give you one.


I've considered that they might go that far. But then doesn't that get into a sort of legal gray area when you go to court? I mean, technically, isn't the local cop now basing his charge on "hearsay"?

I have a feeling a decent lawyer would get any charges based on that sort of scenario thrown out immediately. Plus, the local cop would probably need to bring that federal cop into court as a witness.

I have a feeling neither cop would take the time unless it was like murder or if you were driving around town ramming other cars and shooting out of your window.

I followed a Park Police car from Baltimore to Philadelphia on my way to New York City that saturday that Hannah blew through. Everytime the rain let up and visibility improved, we both got up to 85 - 90 mph. He knew I was shadowing him the whole time, and he didn't seem to care. We were even passing cars with their hazards on going 40 mph during the worst of the downpours at about 65 or 70.

I just get a feeling they only care about traffic laws in places they are assigned to patrol for traffic violations, or might not be able to do much outside their jurisdictions.

The have jurisdiction but highly doubt they want to do all the paperwork. The federal cars you see are patrolling US gov buildings and undercover ones are doing investigations.

Usually they call a local cop and he does the paper work. It's also considered rude to the cops turf they are on.

Lurker. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The have jurisdiction but highly doubt they want
> to do all the paperwork. The federal cars you see
> are patrolling US gov buildings and undercover
> ones are doing investigations.
>
> Usually they call a local cop and he does the
> paper work. It's also considered rude to the cops
> turf they are on.


The generic "POLICE" patrol cars with US Gov plates are patrolling gov't offices in commercial areas in Tysons, Reston, etc.

The Secret Service cars (the ones with the gold badges on the doors) are most likely doing security watches in front of the homes of cabinet members, agency heads, foreign dignitaries, etc.

The Park Police, at least in the McLean area, are just stopping in at McLean Pizza for dinner, or going to Giant or 7-11 to get a snack, and then going back to patrolling the GW Parkway.

I'm just still not sure they have jurisdiction. I know the FBI has jurisdiction nationwide, but I think these other police agencies have specific mandates, rules and jurisdictions. I just don't know for sure.

>>>> Can the park police, the secret service, and those generic "POLICE" -- that I presume are doing facility security patrols of areas with federal offices -- pull over drivers on state and county roads?


The Federal Protective Service used to write alot of tickets in Reston years ago. They would sit in the USGS parking lot and pull over cars speeding down South Lakes Drive. Not sure if they still do it, but I saw alot of cars get tickets from FPS along that stretch.

Lets clear this up once an for all:

The MPD K9 cop on 66 on his way home in centreville has no jurisdiction.

The park police officer may have concurrent criminal jurisdiction outside park lands, but not traffic (and probably only for federal offenses)

CIA police are basically security guards with little or no jurisdiction off CIA property.

Any Federale's would have FEDERAL jurisdiction...but no ability to enforce local or state law.

To address the "hearsay" issue....

Lets say a park police officer sees you driving under suspicion of drunk driving on 236. Without getting into a really legalese explanation, he could STOP you and DETAIN you and call a county officer to run you through sobriety etc. He could also appear in court and testify regarding driving behavior...but he can not legally collect evidence or lock you up. Has to do with certain VA verbiage about breach of peace and taking action and legal precedent citing DWI as a breach of peach...again...really convoluted legal basis, but there it is.

Arlington cop cant pull you over in Fairfax County, can take action for a class 1 misdemeanor in his presence or a felony. Certain laws about distances into neighboring jurisdictions to enforce certain offenses also exist (e.g...a crime occurring withing 300 yards of a jurisdiction can be assumed to be and prosecuted in either or jurisdiction etc)....Arlington cop on the county line sees a fight in progress just into Alexandria...he can enter, make an arrest and take the arrestees back to Arlington.

Interistingly, same applies to the GW parkway in mt vernon. It is in Fairfax Coounty, but Fairfax PD have limited concurrent criminal jurisdiction (they cant run radar and enforce typical traffic offenses).

As for FPS...they ONLY have jurisdiction on the federal facilities in which they are sanctioned to protect. Not sure about the tickets in reston, unless the govt "owned" part of the road outside the facility instead of the state (VDOT).

So in terms of secret service and park police pulling you over on state/county roads for anything but federal offenses - I would say NO. And just for the record, the ones guarding Langley are NOT secret service.

The FBI has nationwide jurisdiction, but again..for FEDERAL offenses....speeding is not one of them.

And yes, each department has rules regarding jurisdiction...many are directly related to state law. If you are interested, I can give you the code citations, and some case law that speaks to this.

Hope this helped and didnt make it more confusing...

Dr. Pepper,

You did clear a lot of it up for me. Most of what you said was the way I thought it was (or should be.)

The ones guarding the CIA HQ are definitely only concerned with the immediate area around the CIA. I see them all the time around McLean and appear to not give a shit what goes on outside of their area. I've seen drunk people talk to them at McLean Pizza or Giant, and they could care less. Though I have seen a secret service patrol car (with the gold badge) parked behind the little brick gaurd shack on the right side of the road leading in on a few occassions, but maybe a cabinet member was visiting.

I knew the FBI didn't have anything to do with traffic enforcement, but just tonight, I experienced an example of one FBI agent who just had to exert his "authority". I was driving down 123, almost the same scenario as with the Volvo driver in my previous comment, this time with a minivan, and I knew the guy in the black expedition with antennas on the roof was FBI, most likely a driver for someone who needed security. After the light changed at Old Dominion, and the minivan started driving 30 mph in the left lane, I started flashing my brights and eventually the minivan driver sped up just enough to allow me to illegaly pass on the right rather than doing what the law proscribes, moving to the right to allow me to pass. So as I passed him at around 40 or so, I honked my horn. At the light at Churchill Rd, the FBI agent pulled up next to me and rolled down his window. He yelled out "Are you in a hurry??" and I rolled my window down and yelled back, "No. I'm just trying to go the speed limit, and that idiot was breaking the law. You saw me flash my lights. I gave him a visible warning that I wanted to overtake him, and he refused to yeild the right of way!" The FBI guy started laughing, and the light turned green, and he sped off.

But yes, you cleared a lot of my confusion up.

Don't forget the rent-a-pig security guards that play police. One in particular, The Virginia State Patrol tries to stop folks in Fairfax County and HAVE made questionable arrests. They have a very negative reputation with the real police and in the Fairfax Courts.

Some of you folks are idiots. Most states, if not all, designate any federal agents/officers with arrest powers as having the same authority as state peace officers. So yes, they can write a court summons for violation of state law.

TheMeeper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Can the park police, the secret service, and
> those generic "POLICE" -- that I presume are doing
> facility security patrols of areas with federal
> offices -- pull over drivers on state and county
> roads?
>
>
> The Federal Protective Service used to write alot
> of tickets in Reston years ago. They would sit in
> the USGS parking lot and pull over cars speeding
> down South Lakes Drive. Not sure if they still do
> it, but I saw alot of cars get tickets from FPS
> along that stretch.

Was the area they were pulling people over in government property?

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Was the area they were pulling people over in government property?


No. They would sit on federal property, and shoot radar at cars driving on the street.

Fairfax County Police Department give tickets for DOT violations.So the reciprocity for federal and state only goes one way? Just asking.

I see the Federal Protective Service all the time around Sunset Hills in Reston, but they can't do shit unless both of you are on federal property.

I have seen the military police and Defense Logistics Agency police pull people over on FFX County Parkway near Fort Belvoir though.

Mason cops are the worse, why the fuck are you trolling 123 WAY off of campus? Don't you have some underage freshman to harass.

'Bill P' is sort of right. Most federal law enforcement officers are sworn in as 'Special Police Officers' in all the near by towns of their jurisdiction giving them the same authority as a local police officer. I am a U.S. Park Ranger and I have credentials for the 5 towns the Park is in. If I am outside the Park and someone speeds past me I'll make the stop and write a state violation notice acting under the authority granted to me by that town. Beacause it's outside of my federal jurisdiction I normally turn a blind eye toward most traffic offences. In the Park I'll pull you over for traveling 10MPH over the posted speed limit. Out side the Park my tolerance might go up to 20MPH. But that's not to say I won't grab you for less. If you get my attention by committing some traffic offence on a state road while I'm outside the Park I'll run your registration on my MDT (Moblie Data Terminal) and see if you worth my time (i.e. driving record or open warrants).

So, to answer your question. Yes, most Federal Police officers and pull you over outside their jurisdiction. It's just a question if they want to (most won't they have enough to worry about in the areas they can patrol). Park Rangers, Park Police, DOD Police, Pentagon Police, Veteran Affairs Police and Federal Protective Services are the only Federal Law Enforcement Agencies that I know of that have RADAR/LIDAR.

Finally, an informed response.

Please close the thread now.

NPSRanger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Bill P' is sort of right. Most federal law
> enforcement officers are sworn in as 'Special
> Police Officers' in all the near by towns of their
> jurisdiction giving them the same authority as a
> local police officer. I am a U.S. Park Ranger and
> I have credentials for the 5 towns the Park is in.
> If I am outside the Park and someone speeds past
> me I'll make the stop and write a state violation
> notice acting under the authority granted to me by
> that town. Beacause it's outside of my federal
> jurisdiction I normally turn a blind eye toward
> most traffic offences. In the Park I'll pull you
> over for traveling 10MPH over the posted speed
> limit. Out side the Park my tolerance might go up
> to 20MPH. But that's not to say I won't grab you
> for less. If you get my attention by committing
> some traffic offence on a state road while I'm
> outside the Park I'll run your registration on my
> MDT (Moblie Data Terminal) and see if you worth my
> time (i.e. driving record or open warrants).
>
> So, to answer your question. Yes, most Federal
> Police officers and pull you over outside their
> jurisdiction. It's just a question if they want
> to (most won't they have enough to worry about in
> the areas they can patrol). Park Rangers, Park
> Police, DOD Police, Pentagon Police, Veteran
> Affairs Police and Federal Protective Services are
> the only Federal Law Enforcement Agencies that I
> know of that have RADAR/LIDAR.


Uniformed Secret service also have radar.

Most of what you say sounds reasonable, but I don't know if what you are saying is true.

Cops are given court appearance dates, 2 per month, for one thing.

Second, if a federal cop gives out a ticket, the court date will be in a federal district court, like in Alexandria, or for Military police, in a court in Atlanta.

There's too many variables, too many ways that the cop will be unable to attend court and thus have the charges thrown out if the accused appears when the accuser doesn't.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cops are given court appearance dates, 2 per
> month, for one thing.
>
> Second, if a federal cop gives out a ticket, the
> court date will be in a federal district court,
> like in Alexandria, or for Military police, in a
> court in Atlanta.
>
> There's too many variables, too many ways that the
> cop will be unable to attend court and thus have
> the charges thrown out if the accused appears when
> the accuser doesn't.


I didn't know Uniformed Secret Service had RADAR. I've never seen them in Court for MV violations. They must not be big on it.

I am well aware police officers are given 2 court dates per month. What does this have to do with anything? I'll go to court and get paid for it.

Yes, if a federal law enforcement officer gives out a ticket it would be on a Centeral Violation Bureau Violation Notice (federal ticket). If you wanted to appeal that ticket you'd have to go to Federal Magistrate Court. But thats if that violation happened on federal land. This topic is federal officers acting outside their 'federal' jurisdiction. As I stated if I am outside my federal jurisdiction and I am acting as a 'Special Police Officer' for that town (as long as I have a commision from the Chief of Police from said town). When acting as a Special Police Officer outside my federal jurisdiction I issue the States Violation Notices (not a federal ticket). When I get informed to appear in State Court I have to show up in a suit rather than my Park Ranger uniform because I am not there as a Federal Officer.

It can be confusing and things change everyday. We attend annual training with state DAs office and federal USDAs office about our authority. I'm not feeding you disinformation. A question was asked and I provided an answer. Again that answer is, Yes. You can be issued a state ticket if that federal officer holds a 'Special Police Officer' commision from that town/city. If he does not hold a commision for that town/city then he can still pull you over if the situation warrants it and then they'll call the locals out to take over.

FWIW, my experience is that the fed cops don't show when they give tickets for the more minor local stuff.

I got a DOS charge by a park police cop, but it was just outside the park. I got a DC ticket for it. I went to DC court and the guy didn't show. It got dropped.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2009 12:58PM by RESton Peace.

NPSRanger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't know Uniformed Secret Service had RADAR.
> I've never seen them in Court for MV violations.
> They must not be big on it.

I doubt they are very big about it. The only time I ever got pulled over for speeding by a USS cop he let me go with a warning anyway.


>
> I am well aware police officers are given 2 court
> dates per month. What does this have to do with
> anything? I'll go to court and get paid for it.

It has to do with what you describe below. A federal cop isn't going to have court dates for every jurisdiction he could possibly find himself in on any given day.

>
> Yes, if a federal law enforcement officer gives
> out a ticket it would be on a Centeral Violation
> Bureau Violation Notice (federal ticket). If you
> wanted to appeal that ticket you'd have to go to
> Federal Magistrate Court. But thats if that
> violation happened on federal land. This topic is
> federal officers acting outside their 'federal'
> jurisdiction. As I stated if I am outside my
> federal jurisdiction and I am acting as a 'Special
> Police Officer' for that town (as long as I have a
> commision from the Chief of Police from said
> town). When acting as a Special Police Officer
> outside my federal jurisdiction I issue the States
> Violation Notices (not a federal ticket). When I
> get informed to appear in State Court I have to
> show up in a suit rather than my Park Ranger
> uniform because I am not there as a Federal
> Officer.
>
> It can be confusing and things change everyday.
> We attend annual training with state DAs office
> and federal USDAs office about our authority. I'm
> not feeding you disinformation. A question was
> asked and I provided an answer. Again that answer
> is, Yes. You can be issued a state ticket if that
> federal officer holds a 'Special Police Officer'
> commision from that town/city. If he does not
> hold a commision for that town/city then he can
> still pull you over if the situation warrants it
> and then they'll call the locals out to take over.


So, how many federal law enforcement officers are given special commissions? Are they temporary, or based on a situation or investigation?

Sounds to me like a situation like where New York City temporarily hires an extra 10,000 officers (or whatever) from around the country during a UN conference or a national party convention or something. And I would assume that anyone given arresting powers during those periods would probably also have some accomodation for their appearance in court for any arrests made during the event.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Speed past the USSS, and for what purpose? No, the Secret Service does not give out tickets, but I have seen one point a Sub-machine gun at some idiot who tailgated them during a Convoy (After having received multiple warnings to back off, including an agent leaning out of the window while waving them back).

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speed past the USSS, and for what purpose? No, the
> Secret Service does not give out tickets, but I

I meant that I got pulled over by a USS for speeding. I guess I worded it ambiguosly.

But, yes, outside of DC, I speed right by them. Any USS cop in VA is going to a security detail or heading home. They seem to really not give a shit how fast you go.

In DC, however, they do tend to exercise full police authority, citywide.


> have seen one point a Sub-machine gun at some
> idiot who tailgated them during a Convoy (After
> having received multiple warnings to back off,
> including an agent leaning out of the window while
> waving them back).

I've seen that so many times, but those are not USS cops, those are secret service agents. Thank god we haven't had too many Iraq veterans become secret service agents on motorcade details....



-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ThePackLeader Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Speed past the USSS, and for what purpose? No,
> the
> > Secret Service does not give out tickets, but I
>
> I meant that I got pulled over by a USS for
> speeding. I guess I worded it ambiguosly.
>
> But, yes, outside of DC, I speed right by them.
> Any USS cop in VA is going to a security detail or
> heading home. They seem to really not give a shit
> how fast you go.
>
> In DC, however, they do tend to exercise full
> police authority, citywide.
>
>
> > have seen one point a Sub-machine gun at some
> > idiot who tailgated them during a Convoy (After
> > having received multiple warnings to back off,
> > including an agent leaning out of the window
> while
> > waving them back).
>
> I've seen that so many times, but those are not
> USS cops, those are secret service agents. Thank
> god we haven't had too many Iraq veterans become
> secret service agents on motorcade details....
>
>


Ohhhh, alright, I get you now. Yeah, I know what you mean, I've gone "speeding" by cops before when I knew they were out of their jurisdiction. They don't usually bother with even attempting to pull you over outside of their bounds, so long as you're not driving like a complete maniac. I'm not a tailgater, and I don't swerve in and out of traffic, the worst thing I do is flow with the traffic on the Toll Road and the Beltway (Which as you know, either moves at a stand-still, or at a serious clip above the posted limit).

Yeah, I was thinking of the AGENTS, I completely forgot about the Uniformed Officers. I'm assuming that many Federal Officers have their authority over most of D.C., because of the fact that it's still considered a Federal District.


LOL, OIF Vets on USSS Convoy Detail!? They'd be blasting out radiators for sure. (Even though sometimes I secretly want to do the very thing to jerks on the road).



BTW, on a curious side-note, I one time saw a vehicle accident at an intersection near a CIA location. The funny thing was, there were absolutely no FCPD Officers on scene, but there were three Federal Police Cars. I'm assuming that the accident victim must've been an employee of the Agency, but I'm not exactly sure of what the protocol is that determines that the Federal Cops should respond instead of the local ones.

ThePackLeader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Ohhhh, alright, I get you now. Yeah, I know what
> you mean, I've gone "speeding" by cops before when
> I knew they were out of their jurisdiction. They
> don't usually bother with even attempting to pull
> you over outside of their bounds, so long as
> you're not driving like a complete maniac. I'm not
> a tailgater, and I don't swerve in and out of
> traffic, the worst thing I do is flow with the
> traffic on the Toll Road and the Beltway (Which as
> you know, either moves at a stand-still, or at a
> serious clip above the posted limit).

Yeah, I sometimes see loudon sheriffs on the toll road. I intentionally gun my engine and blast past them while everyone else is afraid to go anywhere near them. Of course, I then make sure that I don't speed once I'm out of his sight, because who knows if he's a hardass who called the local PD and reported me.

>
> Yeah, I was thinking of the AGENTS, I completely
> forgot about the Uniformed Officers. I'm assuming
> that many Federal Officers have their authority
> over most of D.C., because of the fact that it's
> still considered a Federal District.
>

I think just about any sworn officer in DC can arrest anywhere in DC. Maybe the smithsonian cops might not be able to, but all the rest can.

Technically, though, only the mall and specific federal buildings are "federal", the rest is supposed to be under the jurisdiction of the MPD. But When George Bush Senior made that TV address as VP about "buying a vial of crack in lafayette park" during the Reagan term, all that began to change.

>
> LOL, OIF Vets on USSS Convoy Detail!? They'd be
> blasting out radiators for sure. (Even though
> sometimes I secretly want to do the very thing to
> jerks on the road).
>

Oh, I often wish I had some sort of grenade launcher or something to get rid of the dipshits doing rolling road blocks on 4 lane roads, and what not.

But yeah, I fear the day when these guys get home from Iraq and apply to be secret service or other motorcade security types.

It's bad enough that they'll come home and become city cops and will be so desensitized to kicking down doors that they'll kick down a door to find a kid who skipped school, and will have the same guns drawn attitude.

>
>
> BTW, on a curious side-note, I one time saw a
> vehicle accident at an intersection near a CIA
> location. The funny thing was, there were
> absolutely no FCPD Officers on scene, but there
> were three Federal Police Cars. I'm assuming that
> the accident victim must've been an employee of
> the Agency, but I'm not exactly sure of what the
> protocol is that determines that the Federal Cops
> should respond instead of the local ones.

I think in those situations, they are just being first responders. I think when you don't see any local cops, it just means that it happened really recently, and no county cop or EMTs have arrived yet.

In that case, they are doing what they are trained to do, and are helping and doing something productive. Providing first-aid, removing people from immediate danger, helping to direct and control traffic, etc., because they were nearby and the closest to the scene.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Oh, by the way, those were not radiators they were shooting at in that video.

Especially not when they were shooting at that kid walking on the sidewalk at around 1:36 into the video.

I've driven a car with a busted thermostat, which is basically the same as having a shot out radiator. It doesn't stop the car, instantly or otherwise. I was able to drive 12 miles to get home, but it took me 4 hours since I had to stop every 10 or 15 minutes to let the car cool down.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2009 03:22AM by Thurston Moore.