How does the Catholic Church justify and maintain its hierarchy and bureaucracy?


There is nothing in the Bible about having a Pope or bishops or cardinals....

There is also nothing in the Bible about Hail Marys or confessing to a Priest....


How can they consider the concept of saints to not be idol worship?


Where do these religious orders fit in the Catholic Church? Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits....seems like as authoritative as the Catholic Church is, religious orders would be seen as challenging the Pope's leadership.

Why don't you call a priest and ask them? Im sure they are eager to offer an explanation.

After Constantine converted to Catholicism and the Roman Empire became the Holy Roman Empire, he gathered all the bishops together at the Council of Nicea(?) around 300 AD and had them agree on one standardized version of the bible, which later became the King James Bible, I believe. Certain texts, like the Book of Thomas ( also known as Doubting Thomas), were excluded because they humanized Jesus and were thus considered to be heretical. After the Catholic Church became involved in the empire business by unifying with the Roman Empire, they started all this hierarchical Vatican/Pope/Crusades/convert the heathens bullshit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2013 08:38PM by who is who.

Wouldn't Jesus be thrilled to see the Vatican, in all it's opulence? It fits right in with his "Camel through the eye of the needle" speech.

While all this Pope voting and selection process was going on, all I could think of is, this must be some sort of elaborate prank and the joke is on all those dummies waiting outside.

The Catholic Church isn't as well organized as you might imagine, never has been. They take money from the churches and groups that identify themselves as Catholic but they've never been as well organized as, say, Walmart.

Most of your questions stem from the history of the church, especially very early on. Within a decade of jesus' death, the church was already going through growing pains about what Jesus was all about - read Mark (an early gospel) and compare it with the Jesus in John (a hundred years later) and you'll see a shift from a wild-eyed preacher to a serene figure who is pretty clearly god.

At the same time, the church itself was shaking things out (documented in Acts). If the church was gonna be a big organization it needed to be governed, so they decided on authority that went (kinda) straight back to Jesus - the first pope actually knew jesus and was the 'vicar' of christ, his stand-in. It's been handed down thusly, pope to pope.

Now that the church was a business, they needed middle-managers and they needed to sort out dissent. The reason why the different gospels tell slightly different stories but nobody mentions it - it was an early agreement to unite the various 'christianities' at the time. Others were not recognized and crushed (like the gnostics). There was agreement on 'what we believe' and it was codified, such as the Nicene Creed (325, and still in use).

The Saints and idol worship, well, the case can be made that pure Christianity didn't survive the spread into the world. Concessions were made to various pagan idol worshiping groups and Christianity acquired a rich patina of non-canonical stuff. Hey, 2000 years is long time for a more-or-less coherent organization.

The various religious orders in the church - complicated history. Some were sanctioned, some not. Some went rogue and were exterminated, many more were and are thought of as semi-independent fiefdoms ultimately responsive to Rome, but not run from there. For various reasons, the Popes usually give groups latitude so long as they hew close on basic doctrine and show obeisance from time to time.

As for how the church 'explains' all this doctrinally - generally they don't, except to say that god won't allow the pope to make too big a fuck-up so if the pope says it, god said it. That popes have contradicted each other and done nasty, non-popeish things - we ... don't talk about that. History.

abelard Wrote:
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> The reason why the different gospels
> tell slightly different stories but nobody
> mentions it - it was an early agreement to unite
> the various 'christianities' at the time. Others
> were not recognized and crushed (like the
> gnostics). There was agreement on 'what we
> believe' and it was codified, such as the Nicene
> Creed (325, and still in use).
>
>


The reorganization and standardization that occurred at the Council of Nicea was a result of the unification of the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire. Gnosticism (knowledge in Greek) was "crushed," because they followed the gospel of Thomas and his "book" was considered heresy, due to the fact that it humanized Jesus and told about his journeys/experiences as an adult ( you won't find much about Jesus' life between the age of 13 and 30 in today's bible).



Today, some people allege that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

All very interesting, thanks.

>Gnosticism (knowledge in Greek) was "crushed," because they followed the gospel of Thomas and his "book" was considered heresy, due to the fact that it humanized Jesus and told about his journeys/experiences as an adult ( you won't find much about Jesus' life between the age of 13 and 30 in today's bible).

There were a number of Gnostic gospels that didn't make the cut but I don't think it was so much the story told by the Gospel of Thomas. The Gospel of Thomas is a 'sayings' gospel - jesus said this, jesus said that, no narrative to speak of. I'm rather fond of it personally - it's much more interesting and spooky than the synoptics or John. And not as wacky as the Infancy gospels, which tell stories of Jesus' childhood where he, if memory serves, withers a guy for a minor infraction. I can see why this one didn't make the cut. Irenaeus particularly hated that one.

I think the big problem the early church had with with the gnostics was literally 'heresy' - they thought you could think for yourself, even write gospels that were as good as any other without even really pretending that they were written by an apostle. Thinking for yourself - not a good thing if you're trying to get folks to howl from the same hymnal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2013 09:33PM by abelard.

abelard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Gnosticism (knowledge in Greek) was "crushed,"
> because they followed the gospel of Thomas and his
> "book" was considered heresy, due to the fact that
> it humanized Jesus and told about his
> journeys/experiences as an adult ( you won't find
> much about Jesus' life between the age of 13 and
> 30 in today's bible).
>
> There were a number of Gnostic gospels that didn't
> make the cut but I don't think it was so much the
> story told by the Gospel of Thomas. The Gospel of
> Thomas is a 'sayings' gospel - jesus said this,
> jesus said that, no narrative to speak of. I'm
> rather fond of it personally - it's much more
> interesting and spooky than the synoptics or John.
> And not as wacky as the Infancy gospels, which
> tell stories of Jesus' childhood where he, if
> memory serves, withers a guy for a minor
> infraction. I can see why this one didn't make
> the cut. Irenaeus particularly hated that one.
>
> I think the big problem the early church had with
> with the gnostics was literally 'heresy' - they
> thought you could think for yourself, even write
> gospels that were as good as any other without
> even really pretending that they were written by
> an apostle. Thinking for yourself - not a good
> thing if you're trying to get folks to howl from
> the same hymnal.


Exactly, thinking that is contrary to traditional Christian precepts is the true definition of heresy. The Catholic Church wanted to control people by only having the bible written in Latin and not teaching its followers how to read it for themselves, instead making them dependent on a third party priest to interpret it the way he saw fit ( much like a plantation owner did not want his slaves to read and gain knowledge, for fear it would lead to freedom or a revolt). This is why Gnosticism was eschewed by the Church and shunned, for it flew into the face of later "creations" about Jesus being immortal and God in human form, something that wasn't initially emphasized by early Christianity.

>This is why Gnosticism was eschewed by the Church and shunned, for it flew into the face of later "creations" about Jesus being immortal and God in human form, something that wasn't initially emphasized by early Christianity.

Not to quibble, but I'll bet their problem was less doctrinal than business - they had a product and a brand to market and protect. The church has let all kinds of non-canonical things slide over the millennia (asking Saints for things, veneration of objects) but these strengthened the brand. Just my opinion but I've long thought that that theological objections were usually creative back-thinking, doctrinal backup for, well, good business practice.

Sorry to bang on - my parents tried to make a priest of me. Didn't take.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2013 10:00PM by abelard.

abelard Wrote:
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> >T
> Not to quibble, but I'll bet their problem was
> less doctrinal than business



Exactly! Why else do you think they hooked up with the Roman Empire (globalization via exploration, colonization, indoctrination, and domination)?

abelard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sorry to bang on -


No worries, I find the relationship between church and state throughout history to be fascinating. From the Catholic Church's alliance with Constantine to Pope Pious' relationship with Hitler, it is simply amazing what transpired! Even today, it is interesting to see how religion still dictates what governments do in countries like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Iran ( as well as its influence in certain parts of southeast Asia and Pakistan).

Fuck that.

Check this out:

I can't speak on the sincerity of the early Church, but trust me, its ALL about the money.

>Exactly! Why else do you think they hooked up with the Roman Empire (globalization via exploration, colonization, indoctrination, and domination)?

Yep, which is why it's the Roman Catholic church, even though nothing of any biblical consequence happened there. It was a good move - tons of other schisms died away because they either didn't get the backing Rome did or set up shop in an otherwise hostile location. Ever hear of Montanism? You might have if they'd not set up shop in soon-to-be-Islamic territory. Location, location, location.

abelard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Exactly! Why else do you think they hooked up
> with the Roman Empire (globalization via
> exploration, colonization, indoctrination, and
> domination)?
>
> Yep, which is why it's the Roman Catholic church,
> even though nothing of any biblical consequence
> happened there. It was a good move - tons of
> other schisms died away because they either didn't
> get the backing Rome did or set up shop in an
> otherwise hostile location. Ever hear of
> Montanism? You might have if they'd not set up
> shop in soon-to-be-Islamic territory. Location,
> location, location.



Actually, Montanism spread and thrived in outposts of the Roman Empire near Turkey, before Christianity was widely accepted or legal. Once Christianity was accepted and allowed, it was deemed to be heretical by the Holy Roman Empire and Church.

Religion has always followed a business model in order to survive and thrive.

Just Say No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't speak on the sincerity of the early
> Church, but trust me, its ALL about the money.


I don't take this as a slam - churches that are bad at business don't last. I stopped at Sabbathday Lake this summer to see the sole remaining Shakers on earth. The Shakers had a 50 year head start on the mormons, yet today the count stands at Shakers 3, Mormons 8 million. Better business plan.

>Actually, Montanism spread and thrived in outposts of the Roman Empire near Turkey, >before Christianity was widely accepted or legal. Once Christianity was accepted >and allowed, it was deemed to be heretical by the Holy Roman Empire and Church.

True, and they were under pressure for a long time but if I recall they lingered into the 700s in North Africa, long enough to meet the forces of the Prophet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2013 10:37PM by abelard.

abelard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just Say No Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I can't speak on the sincerity of the early
> > Church, but trust me, its ALL about the money.
>
>
> I don't take this as a slam - churches that are
> bad at business don't last. I stopped at
> Sabbathday Lake this summer to see the sole
> remaining Shakers on earth. The Shakers had a 50
> year head start on the mormons, yet today the
> count stands at Shakers 3, Mormons 8 million.
> Better business plan.
>
>


The Shakers! lol



The reason the Shakers lost out to the Mormons was because you had to be celibate once you joined. Having sex was forbidden and the only way they acquired children was via adoption, conversion, and new recruits who were already pregnant before joining.


That can't compete with Johnny Mormon, who had 5 wives and 29 children!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2013 10:49PM by who is who.

The catholic church is like the NFL all about the money

Catholics don't scare me, but unlike the OP, I've traveled. The Catholics build hospitals and schools and they feed the poor.

It's the Muslims I worry about. How many heads have they chopped off this week?

Muslims HATE blacks, Jews, Christians, women, westerners - they hate everyone.

They teach young boys to abuse women........ and to hate Jews.

Muslim Hatred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Catholics don't scare me, but unlike the OP, I've
> traveled. The Catholics build hospitals and
> schools and they feed the poor.
>
> It's the Muslims I worry about. How many heads
> have they chopped off this week?
>
> Muslims HATE blacks, Jews, Christians, women,
> westerners - they hate everyone.
>
> They teach young boys to abuse women........ and
> to hate Jews.

and they hate LGBT's too.
Attachments:

New Pope has proclaimed more saints than any other Pope in history. Over 820 so far....


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22499327



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2013 12:54PM by eesh.

My cowoker came down from New York where he went to a catholic church. It wasnt until a year later down here that he became interested in joining a local catholic church. When he did he was told he needed to make up what his alms would have been had he paid over the previous year.

Does this answer the mail Eesh?
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