I was in traffic court not too long ago and witnessed an incredible exchange between a guy and the judge. Basically, the guy was given a traffic citation that he decided to challenge in court.

It looks like the cop who was there did not write the ticket because he couldn't explain why the guy was stopped. When it was the guy turn to say what happened, the judge pretty much interrupt him every few words and told him it's only $20!

The dude looked totally confused. After talking to him in the parking lot, he told me that the cop was not the one who gave him the ticket.

I don't know what to make of this but when I told this story at work, people were not shocked. In fact a few of them know of incidents like this.

Is this something wrong here? I mean if an officer can't make it to court, can he really write the name of another officer on the citation without getting caught?

Minor or not, cops usually will not rat on each other.

Randall J Wrote:
I mean if an officer
> can't make it to court, can he really write the
> name of another officer on the citation without
> getting caught?


I doubt it. Writing another officer's name on a ticket seems like it would be easily caught. Lying under oath for a $20 ticket in a situation where you could be easily caught, would be foolish to say the least. They would most likely just assume most people won't come to court for $20 so they wouldn't worry about having someone lie for them.

He should appeal and subpoena the officer's (who signed) citation/call records for that day. Assuming it's worth his time/money. If the signing officer was on a different call or in a different location during the time the citation was written, the prosecution and the officer has a problem.

Why do you automatically assume the guy who is facing the fine is telling the truth and the cop is lying?

Does the guy have a picture of the cop who gave him the ticket? Its very possible the guy doesnt remember what the cop looked like. Its also very possible that hes just lying trying to get out of the ticket

oh, I think if you go to court for a traffic ticket, you are going to remember the face of the person who gave you the ticket. YOu may not remember it all the time yr waiting to go to court, sure. But when you go that day, and see the cops waiting to go in the courtroom, you're gonna remember which one gave you the ticket as soon as you see him/her.......unless, I guess, yr getting tickets all the time LoLz

also, we make the assumption because that is the way the story is PRESENTED to us. It's more odd you would assume the guy was lying to get out of a $20 ticket. Most ppl who go to court over such things are doing so for the some reason other than $$$$ ,y'know?

I know I want to know why a judge would tell someone that "it's only $20" when it is his time to defend himself like the amt of fine matters. If it's such a small amt, you pay it, Judge-Judge............sheesh

It’s called a quota, Cops will lie to no end to make their case and meet their quota.

I was in court a few months ago and this red headed cop had 11 people he'd given a ticket to for various reasons. Every single one of them were hispanic. Are we to believe he didn't see one black or white that broke the law.

Profiling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was in court a few months ago and this red
> headed cop had 11 people he'd given a ticket to
> for various reasons. Every single one of them
> were hispanic. Are we to believe he didn't see
> one black or white that broke the law.


I hate it when people do this. If you get stopped by the police then I guess you are doing something wrong! I highly doubt that a police officer will dedicate his/her day to do what you suggest. I am Hispanic and have been helped by the police a couple of times

@alej - there are good cops. there are bad cops. Remember that, my friend.
@profiling - if cop is doing his/her job out on Rt 1 or Lincolnia, then prolly not...............prolly trully legit



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2012 10:14AM by Gordon Blvd.

Is eesh obsessed with aborted fetus porn? ABSOLUTELY!

Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @alej - there are good cops. there are bad cops.
> Remember that, my friend.
> @profiling - if cop is doing his/her job out on Rt
> 1 or Lincolnia, then prolly
> not...............prolly trully legit

I Agree with you. It might be the area where the cop is being sent that's full with Hispanics.

Alejandra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gordon Blvd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > @alej - there are good cops. there are bad
> cops.
> > Remember that, my friend.
> > @profiling - if cop is doing his/her job out on
> Rt
> > 1 or Lincolnia, then prolly
> > not...............prolly trully legit
>
> I Agree with you. It might be the area where the
> cop is being sent that's full with Hispanics.

Just because there were only hispanics in court doesnt mean he only ticketed Hispanics. Given that many hispanics work non traditional jobs and hours, compiled by the low wages many of them earn; Reason would stand to say they are more likely to show up in court to fight said ticket.

trogdor! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Randall J Wrote:
> I mean if an officer
> > can't make it to court, can he really write the
> > name of another officer on the citation without
> > getting caught?
>
>
> I doubt it. Writing another officer's name on a
> ticket seems like it would be easily caught.
> Lying under oath for a $20 ticket in a situation
> where you could be easily caught, would be foolish
> to say the least. They would most likely just
> assume most people won't come to court for $20 so
> they wouldn't worry about having someone lie for
> them.
>
> He should appeal and subpoena the officer's (who
> signed) citation/call records for that day.
> Assuming it's worth his time/money. If the
> signing officer was on a different call or in a
> different location during the time the citation
> was written, the prosecution and the officer has a
> problem.

Yes police officers will lie on tickets just like anything else. However I doubt one officer would put another officer's name on the ticket just because he couldn't make it to court that day. Officers assigned to traffic court generally have assigned dates in Fairfax, and they will put their next (or second to next-not sure how often they are) assigned date on the ticket. If the officer knew he wasn't going to be in court on a certain date, the officer would simply put another date on the ticket.

"Covering" isn't a likely story either. If an officer isn't available the prosecutor does have the option of requesting a continuance or of nolle prossing a case and possibly bringing it again later. Also they typically call cases by officers and if one officer was responding to two different officer's cases the judge might get suspicious, and if not more than one of the defendants would likely notice it is a different officer.

One possible explanation, and this is just a WAG, is that there were two officers working the area, one who identified the violators and the second who ran them down and issued the citation. In this instance the first officer who is the one who actually witnessed the violation is the one who would need to be in court.

@profiling-Remember there are two sides to that argument. It is possible that the only people the officer issued citations to were Hispanic. It is also possible the officer issued citations to a number of people of all ethnicities, but of those whom the officer issued citations to, only the Hispanic violators showed up the challenge the tickets.

I'm thinking that's why the guy should have appealed the conviction to the Circuit Court of Fairfax. But well, that's just so obvious it hurts.

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/756190/910022.html
Cops are not angels.

"Why do you automatically assume the guy who is facing the fine is telling the truth and the cop is lying?"

Because
1) the cop couldn't explain why the guy was given a citation.
2) he couldn't look at the guy not for a split second
3) he got pale when the guy name was called and the dude actually stood up
4) the judge ask the cop when he couldn't explain things "did he stop where there was a no parking sign",cop said yes.
5) actual change was something completely unrelated.
6) everyone understood that the officer was lying

I have contacted the guy and got a copy of the citation. All I need is another citation by the same cop to tell if the signature is the same.

I will keep you posted.

why do you Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why do you automatically assume the guy who is
> facing the fine is telling the truth and the cop
> is lying?
>
> Does the guy have a picture of the cop who gave
> him the ticket? Its very possible the guy doesnt
> remember what the cop looked like. Its also very
> possible that hes just lying trying to get out of
> the ticket


Because one is innocent before proven guilty. I tend to take the side of the victim of a ticket than favor the cop at first.

It would obviously be automatic grounds for dismissal if it was a different cop, for two reasons:

- The citing officer must show up in court (Most of the time they do).

and


- A whole load of other reasons (Forgery, lying under oath, an ethical violation, possibly contempt, etc.).



I've never seen something like this before, but yes, I've known of and actually witnessed crummy officers lying in order to cover their asses when they knew they screwed up.


The one time I contested an officer in court for a traffic ticket that was complete BS, I actually had him so nervous that he kept shaking his leg and tapping his foot uncontrollably the entire time. However, he never outright lied, but I did have evidence that contradicted things he said and you should've seen the look on the judge's face, lol. Officers do make mistakes and they are put under pressure, but they should never lie in order to obtain a conviction. Some barriers simply shouldn't be crossed.

==================================================================================================
"And if any women or children get their legs torn off, or faces caved in, well, it's tough shit for them." -2LT. Bert Stiles, 505th, 339th (On Berlin Bombardier Mission, 1944).

Cops lie all the fucking time.

I'm a speeder now because I just don't give a fuck anymore, and I'll tell you why. I've been living here since 1998. Fort Belvoir was open then, and I was on active duty in the Army, stationed at INSCOM on Beulah Street.

I was coming back from lunch, and had JUST gotten gas at the Hess gas station on Rt. 1, near the Burger King and the Tulley Gate of Belvoir. I was sitting in traffic, waiting to turn left so I could go up the hill towards INSCOM.

When traffic cleared, I moved, and got IMMEDIATELY pulled over by a cop who claimed I was going 40 in a 25. First words out of my mouth: "I want to see the radar". The cop's response? "We don't lock it". Yeah, whatever.

Needless to say, the judge ignored the laws of physics (a 4 cylinder car is not going to go from 0-40 in under half a second.) and I was found guilty.

That's when I stopped giving a fuck. If I'm going to get nailed ANYWAY, then dammit, I'm going to go whatever speed I feel comfortable at.

Vienna cop lied about me in court passing a stopped school bus with red lights on when the bus had not even come to a stop yet and had yellows flashing. And he was sitting in a spot where there was no way he could have seen any of this anyway.

oh this is classic. "I'm gonna break the law all the time now and it's ok cause of that one time." I'm just got my 8 yr olds out of that habit, yo. Sounds like yr parents need to work with you a little more before you grow up, Unrepentant LoLz

@Pack - no, some lines never should.......... Must have been sweet watching the cop sweat, though. You never said, but the judge threw out your case, right?

@Alex - you are wrong. You are NOT innocent until proven guilty. That is the biggest crock of shit that ppl believe about America. The saying is "In a court of law, you are PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty" meaning that in the court, the legal procedure assumes a stance of the defendant's presumed innocence. That way, the court says the prosecution has to prove a case. That's all it means. Doesnt mean a criminal is "innocent" until the court case says he not. Someone can still be guilty as hell of a crime but not legally caught...............

@Randall - man, that would be something else if you got another copy and were able to prove the cop was forging crap and presenting it in court as his own, or whatever.

@Yes - well, looks like the Judge was more crooked in that case than the cop..........

Randall J Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was in traffic court not too long ago and
> witnessed an incredible exchange between a guy and
> the judge. Basically, the guy was given a traffic
> citation that he decided to challenge in court.
>
> It looks like the cop who was there did not write
> the ticket because he couldn't explain why the guy
> was stopped. When it was the guy turn to say what
> happened, the judge pretty much interrupt him
> every few words and told him it's only $20!
>
> The dude looked totally confused. After talking to
> him in the parking lot, he told me that the cop
> was not the one who gave him the ticket.
>
> I don't know what to make of this but when I told
> this story at work, people were not shocked. In
> fact a few of them know of incidents like this.
>
> Is this something wrong here? I mean if an officer
> can't make it to court, can he really write the
> name of another officer on the citation without
> getting caught?

If the cop who wrote the ticket is not present for the hearing, the ticket typically gets dismissed. I've experienced this directly (my parking ticket got thrown out because the cop was a no-show). I've never heard of the cop being absent for traffic court and someone having to pay the ticket anyway.

The couple of occasions I've had to sit in traffic court have taught me one thing: Unless you have solid, 100% irrefutably hard evidence that you are not guilty, just pay the ticket and move on. The cop doesn't want to be in traffic court, the judge doesn't want to be in traffic court, and most attempts to fight the ticket go like this:

Judge: Did he do it?

Cop: Yup.

Judge: Pay the fine.

If you show up well-groomed, dressed nicely, act respectfully, and don't have a long history of traffic violations, the most you can hope for by fighting the ticket is that the judge got laid the night before and will not put points on your license. You're gonna pay that fine, though.

Cops flat-out lie at the same rate everybody else lies at their job. The ease of obtaining court records and the FOIA make it pretty hard to get away with blatantly shady behavior. Also ask yourself what incentive the cop has to lie about you. It's not like he's going to pocket the fine directly if you're found guilty.

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

I have no luck so far finding another citation with the Officer's signature. It's not for lack of trying. It's just that the Arrest Search feature of this site doesn't allow us to search by arresting officer name.

So I am looking for alternatives. Do you know of any public sources where I can get a copy of someone's signature.

Go to http://www.courts.state.va.us/caseinfo/home.html
Click on General District Court
Choose Fairfax County and select date search
Insert date, time and courtroom
Look through COMPLAINANT list on the cases to find the officer's last name
Write down all Defendants and case numbers who had cases with your officer
Conduct a search to locate those Defendants, contact them and ask for a copy of their ticket if they have one OR Go to the courthouse and ask to see the files for the cases. You may then have to follow up by contacting the Defendants if there is no copy of the summons in the file.

I have not gotten a ticket in a long time, but from what I remember, don't cops have to put their badge numbers and write their last names on the ticket? Isn't the guy getting the ticket the one who signs it? This whole thing sounds screwy. We're supposed to believe that the cop who gave the ticket knew another cop would be in court 2½ months later, that other cops name and his badge number. No, I don't think so.

Just an update.
I did not have any luck getting another citation by the officer as yet. However, I will keep looking at new cases and will hopefully get a copy soon.

@Bill.N
Awesome Tip. Unfortunately, only one case showed up for that officer that day. But I will keep on trying.

@Fling an pitch
Let me respond to your statement - "that other cops name and his badge number. No, I don't think so"

I do not think this is random. The officer in court HAD to know what the officer did.

This is a troll/bitter citizen - no officer will risk their job over something as stupid as a traffic case and lie for another officer especially when it can be proven as easily as looking at the officer who signed the ticket and the nametag on the officer's uniform and seeing that they dont match. THEY DON'T CARE AS MUCH AS YOU THINK THEY DO about your dumb fucking $250 fine.

@ Randall ()

Its time to deliver. You better upload a scan of this supposed ticket because if what you report is true its not just like "oh haha a cop lied" it would be a serious fucking scandal that would likely cost the jobs of both officers involved and could even bring IA in on other officers who didn't speak up or even implicate the CWA in the courtroom if they knew as well.

If its true I'll quit my job as a deputy.

The cops know 99% of people aren't going to go the court for a $20 ticket. The guy probably did something stupid to piss the fraudster cop off enough for him to write the ticket and risk his job.

This post sounds like a bunch of fucking cry babies just upset they got a ticket they deserved. You probably werent paying attention to what you were doing and got stopped not realizing you did something wrong. Put down your cellphone and maybe you wouldnt get pulled over. Quit your bitching, pay attention, and you wont get pulled. Im glad that former military dude is no longer serving. Sounds like he is really bitter because he gets ticketed alot. Good luck in life with that attitude. Stop breaking the law and guess what, the cops wont mess with you.

U idiots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This post sounds like a bunch of fucking cry
> babies just upset they got a ticket they deserved.
> You probably werent paying attention to what you
> were doing and got stopped not realizing you did
> something wrong. Put down your cellphone and maybe
> you wouldnt get pulled over. Quit your bitching,
> pay attention, and you wont get pulled. Im glad
> that former military dude is no longer serving.
> Sounds like he is really bitter because he gets
> ticketed alot. Good luck in life with that
> attitude. Stop breaking the law and guess what,
> the cops wont mess with you.


God you sound like a pussy.

JBass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop breaking the law and guess what,
> > the cops wont mess with you.
>
>
> God you sound like a pussy.

heheh

Thanks for all your suggestions guys. I contacted the court and police dept IA division and provided the info I have.

@ sdd3d23d -- It's not my call. The guy who got the ticket need to give me permission to post his info on this board and he has not done so (and I haven't asked him to).

Thanks again for your help.

That guy might be telling the truth after all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb9VnvbYGak&feature=related