Fairfax County General :
Fairfax Underground
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.
495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Adam
()
Date: March 29, 2012 03:31PM
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Officials-Give-495-Express-Lanes-Update-HOT-Lanes-144935955.html
"Starting this summer, those who carpool will be able to turn in their current E-ZPass transponders for a new E-ZPass Flex transponder. That will allow drivers to use the transponder in both HOV-3 mode and non-HOV mode with the flip of a switch. HOV-3 qualifies for toll-free travel."
How is this going to be enforced. I don't see anyway it can be, If your allowed to drive in it with 1 person. Then just flipping the switch before you enter would allow you to drive for free. The cops won't know who paid and who didn't.
"Starting this summer, those who carpool will be able to turn in their current E-ZPass transponders for a new E-ZPass Flex transponder. That will allow drivers to use the transponder in both HOV-3 mode and non-HOV mode with the flip of a switch. HOV-3 qualifies for toll-free travel."
How is this going to be enforced. I don't see anyway it can be, If your allowed to drive in it with 1 person. Then just flipping the switch before you enter would allow you to drive for free. The cops won't know who paid and who didn't.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
1995hoo
()
Date: March 29, 2012 04:13PM
Can't guarantee there won't be any cheaters, but from what I understand, the way it works is that the E-ZPass Flex communicates with the tolling system regardless of whether it's in "HOV" or "non-HOV" mode. It has to communicate with the system because the information about the number of cars in the lanes is part of what they'll use to determine the correct toll rate at any given time (the tolls will vary based on the amount of traffic in order to keep the traffic moving: if there's more traffic in the lanes, tolls go up to discourage other people from entering).
Anyway, if the device is in HOV mode it communicates with the toll gantry and tells it that your car is an HOV-3+ vehicle. (You've probably seen the toll gantries: They're those sets of two arms that extend out over where the new lanes will be in a few locations.) The tolling system provides that information to the cops who are patrolling the lanes so they can verify. My gut tells me they're more likely to do enforcement on the off-ramps, just like on I-66 and Shirley Highway now, because it's safer, but we'll see.
It's almost certain some people will try to cheat the system. Some will probably succeed. But the Washington Post's Dr. Gridlock made a pretty good point when he said that the company operating these lanes will have a pretty good financial incentive to make sure the system works to minimize cheaters.
Incidentally, when you use an E-ZPass facility other than the Beltway Express Lanes, it won't matter which position the HOV switch is in. The device will work as normal and you'll be charged the normal toll, because other facilities don't have "HOV rides free" policies. This just underscores that the device still communicates with the toll system.
(Obviously you can still use the Beltway lanes with a regular E-ZPass, but if you do that you do not get a toll exemption if you have three or more people in the car.)
Anyway, if the device is in HOV mode it communicates with the toll gantry and tells it that your car is an HOV-3+ vehicle. (You've probably seen the toll gantries: They're those sets of two arms that extend out over where the new lanes will be in a few locations.) The tolling system provides that information to the cops who are patrolling the lanes so they can verify. My gut tells me they're more likely to do enforcement on the off-ramps, just like on I-66 and Shirley Highway now, because it's safer, but we'll see.
It's almost certain some people will try to cheat the system. Some will probably succeed. But the Washington Post's Dr. Gridlock made a pretty good point when he said that the company operating these lanes will have a pretty good financial incentive to make sure the system works to minimize cheaters.
Incidentally, when you use an E-ZPass facility other than the Beltway Express Lanes, it won't matter which position the HOV switch is in. The device will work as normal and you'll be charged the normal toll, because other facilities don't have "HOV rides free" policies. This just underscores that the device still communicates with the toll system.
(Obviously you can still use the Beltway lanes with a regular E-ZPass, but if you do that you do not get a toll exemption if you have three or more people in the car.)
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
snakeinthegrass
()
Date: March 29, 2012 10:17PM
95 North of Baltimore is getting the same type of lane system and it should work up there as well
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
FrankieJ
()
Date: March 29, 2012 11:30PM
These things are going to be a complete mess. lol
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
1995hoo
()
Date: March 30, 2012 09:15AM
snakeinthegrass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 95 North of Baltimore is getting the same type of
> lane system and it should work up there as well
No, that's not the same thing. Maryland is building "Express Toll Lanes" instead of "High Occupancy or Toll Lanes." That is, in Maryland there won't be any "HOV rides free" provision on the new lanes: If you want to drive in their express lanes, you'll have to pay whatever the toll rate is when you enter the lanes. The agitators who scream about "Lexus lanes" should more properly be directing that phrase towards what Maryland is building.
But the E-ZPass Flex will still work on the I-95 lanes in Maryland, it just won't give you a free ride if the switch is in "HOV mode."
-------------------------------------------------------
> 95 North of Baltimore is getting the same type of
> lane system and it should work up there as well
No, that's not the same thing. Maryland is building "Express Toll Lanes" instead of "High Occupancy or Toll Lanes." That is, in Maryland there won't be any "HOV rides free" provision on the new lanes: If you want to drive in their express lanes, you'll have to pay whatever the toll rate is when you enter the lanes. The agitators who scream about "Lexus lanes" should more properly be directing that phrase towards what Maryland is building.
But the E-ZPass Flex will still work on the I-95 lanes in Maryland, it just won't give you a free ride if the switch is in "HOV mode."
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Captain Beltway
()
Date: March 30, 2012 09:26AM
The manual switching of the transponder from HOV to non-HOV is a temporary stop gap and VDOT and its Australian contractor have admitted there will challenges enforcing it and that will fall on the VASP. However...
Eventually there will be thermal imaging cameras that will detect the number of occupants so the HOV/non-HOV will be automatic. These cameras are already in use elsewhere in the world but they are very expensive. VDOT had the option of having them installed as part of the launch of the HOT lanes but it was cost prohibitive and would have meant a later lauch date by a few years. They instead chose to launch without them and will install them at a later date once there's money to do so. No word on the projected installation date yet.
Eventually there will be thermal imaging cameras that will detect the number of occupants so the HOV/non-HOV will be automatic. These cameras are already in use elsewhere in the world but they are very expensive. VDOT had the option of having them installed as part of the launch of the HOT lanes but it was cost prohibitive and would have meant a later lauch date by a few years. They instead chose to launch without them and will install them at a later date once there's money to do so. No word on the projected installation date yet.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
huh
()
Date: March 30, 2012 09:30AM
Captain Beltway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
VDOT and
> its Australian contractor have admitted there will
> challenges enforcing it and that will fall on the
> VASP. However...
>
>
How will they enforce it if there will be both HOV and non HOV drivers on the road?
-------------------------------------------------------
VDOT and
> its Australian contractor have admitted there will
> challenges enforcing it and that will fall on the
> VASP. However...
>
>
How will they enforce it if there will be both HOV and non HOV drivers on the road?
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Steve
()
Date: March 30, 2012 10:15AM
Captain Beltway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The manual switching of the transponder from HOV
> to non-HOV is a temporary stop gap and VDOT and
> its Australian contractor have admitted there will
> challenges enforcing it and that will fall on the
> VASP. However...
>
> Eventually there will be thermal imaging cameras
> that will detect the number of occupants so the
> HOV/non-HOV will be automatic. These cameras are
> already in use elsewhere in the world but they are
> very expensive. VDOT had the option of having them
> installed as part of the launch of the HOT lanes
> but it was cost prohibitive and would have meant a
> later lauch date by a few years. They instead
> chose to launch without them and will install them
> at a later date once there's money to do so. No
> word on the projected installation date yet.
That's wild. I would think there would be some room for error, maybe two small babies and the driver. Might look like 2 people.
Why didn't they just make a HOV3 lane and then the tolls are only tolls. Seems like it would have saved a lot of money in the long run.
-------------------------------------------------------
> The manual switching of the transponder from HOV
> to non-HOV is a temporary stop gap and VDOT and
> its Australian contractor have admitted there will
> challenges enforcing it and that will fall on the
> VASP. However...
>
> Eventually there will be thermal imaging cameras
> that will detect the number of occupants so the
> HOV/non-HOV will be automatic. These cameras are
> already in use elsewhere in the world but they are
> very expensive. VDOT had the option of having them
> installed as part of the launch of the HOT lanes
> but it was cost prohibitive and would have meant a
> later lauch date by a few years. They instead
> chose to launch without them and will install them
> at a later date once there's money to do so. No
> word on the projected installation date yet.
That's wild. I would think there would be some room for error, maybe two small babies and the driver. Might look like 2 people.
Why didn't they just make a HOV3 lane and then the tolls are only tolls. Seems like it would have saved a lot of money in the long run.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Captain Beltway
()
Date: March 30, 2012 10:29AM
huh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Captain Beltway Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> VDOT and
> > its Australian contractor have admitted there
> will
> > challenges enforcing it and that will fall on
> the
> > VASP. However...
> >
> >
>
> How will they enforce it if there will be both HOV
> and non HOV drivers on the road?
Let me try this again since you are apparently the only one who doesn't understand...
VDOT (that's the Virginia Depart of Transportation) who oversee the HOT lanes project and its Australian contractor (they are being paid to oversee management of the lanes once the project construction is completed and will open for traffic) have admitted that enforcement will be a challenge. This means there WILL BE people who cheat the system and ride for free until such time as the thermal imaging cameras are installed.
Was it wise of the Commonwealth to launch the HOT lanes this way? Well, I leave that for you to decide...
-------------------------------------------------------
> Captain Beltway Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> VDOT and
> > its Australian contractor have admitted there
> will
> > challenges enforcing it and that will fall on
> the
> > VASP. However...
> >
> >
>
> How will they enforce it if there will be both HOV
> and non HOV drivers on the road?
Let me try this again since you are apparently the only one who doesn't understand...
VDOT (that's the Virginia Depart of Transportation) who oversee the HOT lanes project and its Australian contractor (they are being paid to oversee management of the lanes once the project construction is completed and will open for traffic) have admitted that enforcement will be a challenge. This means there WILL BE people who cheat the system and ride for free until such time as the thermal imaging cameras are installed.
Was it wise of the Commonwealth to launch the HOT lanes this way? Well, I leave that for you to decide...
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
stupid move
()
Date: March 30, 2012 10:52AM
Captain Beltway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> huh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Captain Beltway Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > VDOT and
> > > its Australian contractor have admitted there
> > will
> > > challenges enforcing it and that will fall on
> > the
> > > VASP. However...
> > >
> > >
> >
> > How will they enforce it if there will be both
> HOV
> > and non HOV drivers on the road?
>
> Let me try this again since you are apparently the
> only one who doesn't understand...
>
> VDOT (that's the Virginia Depart of
> Transportation) who oversee the HOT lanes project
> and its Australian contractor (they are being paid
> to oversee management of the lanes once the
> project construction is completed and will open
> for traffic) have admitted that enforcement will
> be a challenge. This means there WILL BE people
> who cheat the system and ride for free until such
> time as the thermal imaging cameras are
> installed.
>
> Was it wise of the Commonwealth to launch the HOT
> lanes this way? Well, I leave that for you to
> decide...
I understood that it was left for a later date, dumb ass. There is no way for anyone to enforce it until then ( much like how the toll road had cameras that didn't work and people didn't pay at late at night for decades)
-------------------------------------------------------
> huh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Captain Beltway Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > VDOT and
> > > its Australian contractor have admitted there
> > will
> > > challenges enforcing it and that will fall on
> > the
> > > VASP. However...
> > >
> > >
> >
> > How will they enforce it if there will be both
> HOV
> > and non HOV drivers on the road?
>
> Let me try this again since you are apparently the
> only one who doesn't understand...
>
> VDOT (that's the Virginia Depart of
> Transportation) who oversee the HOT lanes project
> and its Australian contractor (they are being paid
> to oversee management of the lanes once the
> project construction is completed and will open
> for traffic) have admitted that enforcement will
> be a challenge. This means there WILL BE people
> who cheat the system and ride for free until such
> time as the thermal imaging cameras are
> installed.
>
> Was it wise of the Commonwealth to launch the HOT
> lanes this way? Well, I leave that for you to
> decide...
I understood that it was left for a later date, dumb ass. There is no way for anyone to enforce it until then ( much like how the toll road had cameras that didn't work and people didn't pay at late at night for decades)
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Atom
()
Date: March 30, 2012 10:54AM
What is the name of the Australian company.
Anyone know what protections/oversights are in place to protect commuters?
It would be so easy for them to tack on a couple extra tolls and reap an extra few million, and we don't even know their name and they are operating on the other side of the planet.
Anyone know what protections/oversights are in place to protect commuters?
It would be so easy for them to tack on a couple extra tolls and reap an extra few million, and we don't even know their name and they are operating on the other side of the planet.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Geoff
()
Date: March 30, 2012 11:25AM
I'm curious of how the enforcement could possibly work. If a person cheats the system by switching to HOV couldn't they simply switch to Toll when approaching a police checkpoint? Additionally since police checkpoints can only reasonably be at HOT exits where traffic slows anyone exiting to 495, 66, or the Dulles toll road probably will never get checked so the potential for cheating is huge!
1995hoo
As you said above:
But the Washington Post's Dr. Gridlock made a pretty good point when he said that the company operating these lanes will have a pretty good financial incentive to make sure the system works to minimize cheaters.
They already planned for this! That's why the contract with VDOT requires VA to pay penalties if the overall number of HOV users tops 25%. “HOV users” include those cheating.
1995hoo
As you said above:
But the Washington Post's Dr. Gridlock made a pretty good point when he said that the company operating these lanes will have a pretty good financial incentive to make sure the system works to minimize cheaters.
They already planned for this! That's why the contract with VDOT requires VA to pay penalties if the overall number of HOV users tops 25%. “HOV users” include those cheating.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
little atomies
()
Date: March 30, 2012 12:14PM
Atom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the name of the Australian company.
>
> Anyone know what protections/oversights are in
> place to protect commuters?
>
> It would be so easy for them to tack on a couple
> extra tolls and reap an extra few million, and we
> don't even know their name and they are operating
> on the other side of the planet.
Transurban. And there's no incentive for them to cheat since they have guaranteed earnings in their contracts with the state. The cheating is built into the contract.
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the name of the Australian company.
>
> Anyone know what protections/oversights are in
> place to protect commuters?
>
> It would be so easy for them to tack on a couple
> extra tolls and reap an extra few million, and we
> don't even know their name and they are operating
> on the other side of the planet.
Transurban. And there's no incentive for them to cheat since they have guaranteed earnings in their contracts with the state. The cheating is built into the contract.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
1995hoo
()
Date: March 30, 2012 01:54PM
Geoff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm curious of how the enforcement could possibly
> work. If a person cheats the system by switching
> to HOV couldn't they simply switch to Toll when
> approaching a police checkpoint? Additionally
> since police checkpoints can only reasonably be at
> HOT exits where traffic slows anyone exiting to
> 495, 66, or the Dulles toll road probably will
> never get checked so the potential for cheating is
> huge!
>
> ....
I don't believe that would work 100% and here's why: The toll-collection points will be at multiple locations on the road. You've probably seen some of them already, as they consist of two metal arms extending out over where the new lanes will be. See photo below taken several months ago of spot just north of US-50. I'm not entirely familiar with the technical workings of E-ZPass, but the way I understand it is that it works in a similar fashion to the ICC in Maryland and to the New Jersey Turnpike and other "ticket-system" toll roads in that your E-ZPass gets read multiple times. In the case of the new lanes on the Beltway, say you're going from I-95 to I-66. There's a toll gantry south of Braddock Road. It will read your E-ZPass and it will know you entered there. There will then be a gantry just south of Gallows, another just south of US-29, and another just south of I-66. (All these gantries are already in place, hence how I know where they'll be.) All of these will read your E-ZPass as well and so the system will know you're still in the Express Lanes. When the gantry located between I-66 and VA-7 doesn't read your E-ZPass, the system will know you exited, as well as where you exited, and the toll will post to your account. The ICC works in a similar fashion because you pass multiple toll gantries on your trip across and it's the first and last ones you pass that determine your toll. The "ticket-system" toll roads are a bit different in that the system there only reads your device twice, once when you enter the "ticket system" and again when you exit.
Switching the device when you're in the lanes presumably wouldn't work because your E-ZPass would have been read at every toll gantry and if you switched it from "HOV" to "non-HOV" presumably it could trigger a flag of some sort. They've said the system can communicate with the cops to tell them who's using "HOV" mode, so I have to assume that means it could be sophisticated enough to say, for example, "Black Honda with license 3M TA3 is suspect" so that the cops would check that car.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm curious of how the enforcement could possibly
> work. If a person cheats the system by switching
> to HOV couldn't they simply switch to Toll when
> approaching a police checkpoint? Additionally
> since police checkpoints can only reasonably be at
> HOT exits where traffic slows anyone exiting to
> 495, 66, or the Dulles toll road probably will
> never get checked so the potential for cheating is
> huge!
>
> ....
I don't believe that would work 100% and here's why: The toll-collection points will be at multiple locations on the road. You've probably seen some of them already, as they consist of two metal arms extending out over where the new lanes will be. See photo below taken several months ago of spot just north of US-50. I'm not entirely familiar with the technical workings of E-ZPass, but the way I understand it is that it works in a similar fashion to the ICC in Maryland and to the New Jersey Turnpike and other "ticket-system" toll roads in that your E-ZPass gets read multiple times. In the case of the new lanes on the Beltway, say you're going from I-95 to I-66. There's a toll gantry south of Braddock Road. It will read your E-ZPass and it will know you entered there. There will then be a gantry just south of Gallows, another just south of US-29, and another just south of I-66. (All these gantries are already in place, hence how I know where they'll be.) All of these will read your E-ZPass as well and so the system will know you're still in the Express Lanes. When the gantry located between I-66 and VA-7 doesn't read your E-ZPass, the system will know you exited, as well as where you exited, and the toll will post to your account. The ICC works in a similar fashion because you pass multiple toll gantries on your trip across and it's the first and last ones you pass that determine your toll. The "ticket-system" toll roads are a bit different in that the system there only reads your device twice, once when you enter the "ticket system" and again when you exit.
Switching the device when you're in the lanes presumably wouldn't work because your E-ZPass would have been read at every toll gantry and if you switched it from "HOV" to "non-HOV" presumably it could trigger a flag of some sort. They've said the system can communicate with the cops to tell them who's using "HOV" mode, so I have to assume that means it could be sophisticated enough to say, for example, "Black Honda with license 3M TA3 is suspect" so that the cops would check that car.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Geoff
()
Date: March 30, 2012 02:36PM
1995Hoos,
Right they certainly would need to do this in order for an enforcement system to work, but that's not the impression I got from the TF rep who spoke at our company. It was described as a handheld standalone reader the cops would use simply to check your transponder mode. While it seems conceivable that they could verify their handheld reader versus the system reading, I'm not confident that that is the system they will have for enforcement. Even more concerning was the fact that the enforcement seemed to be an afterthought when the rep answered questions about the logistics of it. Even if the technology is in place for them to verify with the main system you’re expecting all this to happen at no less than 45MPH as the cop reads the transponder and then verifies occupants in the vehicle?
Right they certainly would need to do this in order for an enforcement system to work, but that's not the impression I got from the TF rep who spoke at our company. It was described as a handheld standalone reader the cops would use simply to check your transponder mode. While it seems conceivable that they could verify their handheld reader versus the system reading, I'm not confident that that is the system they will have for enforcement. Even more concerning was the fact that the enforcement seemed to be an afterthought when the rep answered questions about the logistics of it. Even if the technology is in place for them to verify with the main system you’re expecting all this to happen at no less than 45MPH as the cop reads the transponder and then verifies occupants in the vehicle?
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Adam
()
Date: March 30, 2012 02:46PM
1995hoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geoff Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> Switching the device when you're in the lanes
> presumably wouldn't work because your E-ZPass
> would have been read at every toll gantry and if
> you switched it from "HOV" to "non-HOV" presumably
> it could trigger a flag of some sort. They've said
> the system can communicate with the cops to tell
> them who's using "HOV" mode, so I have to assume
> that means it could be sophisticated enough to
> say, for example, "Black Honda with license 3M TA3
> is suspect" so that the cops would check that
> car.
That's assuming you switched it, if you just left it on HOV the enitre trip, it wouldn't know.
Not to mention, how many people will simply forget to change it and end up with a crazy HOV ticket.
Sounds like not a lot of planning went into this system. Or they knew people were going to abuse it so they could write more HOV tickets, and make more money that way.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Geoff Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> Switching the device when you're in the lanes
> presumably wouldn't work because your E-ZPass
> would have been read at every toll gantry and if
> you switched it from "HOV" to "non-HOV" presumably
> it could trigger a flag of some sort. They've said
> the system can communicate with the cops to tell
> them who's using "HOV" mode, so I have to assume
> that means it could be sophisticated enough to
> say, for example, "Black Honda with license 3M TA3
> is suspect" so that the cops would check that
> car.
That's assuming you switched it, if you just left it on HOV the enitre trip, it wouldn't know.
Not to mention, how many people will simply forget to change it and end up with a crazy HOV ticket.
Sounds like not a lot of planning went into this system. Or they knew people were going to abuse it so they could write more HOV tickets, and make more money that way.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Steve
()
Date: March 30, 2012 02:51PM
What happens if a soccor mom dropped her kids off. Got back on the hot lanes, Realized it was set to HOV3, changed it half way through.
What happens?
What happens?
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
1995hoo
()
Date: March 30, 2012 03:15PM
Adam Wrote:
>
> ....
>
> That's assuming you switched it, if you just left
> it on HOV the enitre trip, it wouldn't know.
>
> ....
Right, but I was responding to a specific hypothetical where Geoff theorized that a solo driver could enter the lanes with it set (illegally) in "HOV" mode, then switch it if he sees a cop car. I was assuming that scenario as the basis for my comments.
Guess we'll see later this year how it all works out.
>
> ....
>
> That's assuming you switched it, if you just left
> it on HOV the enitre trip, it wouldn't know.
>
> ....
Right, but I was responding to a specific hypothetical where Geoff theorized that a solo driver could enter the lanes with it set (illegally) in "HOV" mode, then switch it if he sees a cop car. I was assuming that scenario as the basis for my comments.
Guess we'll see later this year how it all works out.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Geoff
()
Date: March 30, 2012 03:31PM
1995hoo,
It's the same question really, because the guy you just caught -assuming that it's physically possible to read the transponder, decide it's a cheater, and pull a car over going somewhere between 45 and 70MPH or let's just say 100ft per second -is the same guy who "just dropped off his kids and made the innocent mistake of just now turning the transponder to Toll" or so he tells the cop. So do we just give everybody a ticket then including those who's transponders didn't register at any given gate (not sure what the failure rate is on the readers but it surely must be above 0%)?
It's the same question really, because the guy you just caught -assuming that it's physically possible to read the transponder, decide it's a cheater, and pull a car over going somewhere between 45 and 70MPH or let's just say 100ft per second -is the same guy who "just dropped off his kids and made the innocent mistake of just now turning the transponder to Toll" or so he tells the cop. So do we just give everybody a ticket then including those who's transponders didn't register at any given gate (not sure what the failure rate is on the readers but it surely must be above 0%)?
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
KeepOnTruckin
()
Date: March 30, 2012 06:11PM
Steve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What happens if a soccor mom dropped her kids off.
> Got back on the hot lanes, Realized it was set to
> HOV3, changed it half way through.
>
> What happens?
I feel like this situation is going to happen ALL the time. Nobody pays attention when they are driving anyway, you think people are going to remember to flip a little switch they cant even see behind their rearview mirror?
And in addition to the hundreds of people who will do this on accident, there will also be tons of people who will purposely leave the transponder on HOV mode and then claim they forgot when/if stopped.
I suppose this is why the tolls have no cap, so that when the lanes are clogged up with cheaters people who actually want to pay will not get on and the lanes will keep moving
-------------------------------------------------------
> What happens if a soccor mom dropped her kids off.
> Got back on the hot lanes, Realized it was set to
> HOV3, changed it half way through.
>
> What happens?
I feel like this situation is going to happen ALL the time. Nobody pays attention when they are driving anyway, you think people are going to remember to flip a little switch they cant even see behind their rearview mirror?
And in addition to the hundreds of people who will do this on accident, there will also be tons of people who will purposely leave the transponder on HOV mode and then claim they forgot when/if stopped.
I suppose this is why the tolls have no cap, so that when the lanes are clogged up with cheaters people who actually want to pay will not get on and the lanes will keep moving
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
snowdenscold
()
Date: March 31, 2012 09:47AM
Do we know what the timeframe is for the transition to thermal imaging?
That is, will the HOT lanes be ruined by cheaters and forgetful people for 6 months or 6 years?
That is, will the HOT lanes be ruined by cheaters and forgetful people for 6 months or 6 years?
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Geoff
()
Date: March 31, 2012 01:21PM
I'm finding it hard to believe a thermal imaging camera could reliably count the number of passengers in a car barreling down the highway. Does anyone have a link to show where these have been tested and deployed reliably?
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
HOTmom
()
Date: March 31, 2012 02:30PM
After I drop off the kids and am driving back, and I left the transponder on HOV...and then "Oops!" and switched it to normal mode...won't it simply charge me the proper toll when I exit?
The billing happens when you exit, not when you enter. So if you change to the more expensive mode before exiting, there should be no problem.
Tickets will probably not be based on cops visually seeing how many people are in the car. The fines will be flagged when you EXIT the system, based on a camera snapshot and your transponder mode. Thermal imaging? That's crazy. A simple photo can be analyzed offline to see how many people are in the car, Similar to facial recognition (but probably a lot easier).
No more chasing people in the lanes or setting up off-ramp checkpoints. Just have the computer do it later and issue the fine. You can contest it in court. They will probably need an authorizing law, just like existing red-light / speeding cameras.
The billing happens when you exit, not when you enter. So if you change to the more expensive mode before exiting, there should be no problem.
Tickets will probably not be based on cops visually seeing how many people are in the car. The fines will be flagged when you EXIT the system, based on a camera snapshot and your transponder mode. Thermal imaging? That's crazy. A simple photo can be analyzed offline to see how many people are in the car, Similar to facial recognition (but probably a lot easier).
No more chasing people in the lanes or setting up off-ramp checkpoints. Just have the computer do it later and issue the fine. You can contest it in court. They will probably need an authorizing law, just like existing red-light / speeding cameras.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Bill.N.
()
Date: March 31, 2012 04:26PM
Don't be so sure HotMom. A few years back our office manager would bring her son up with her and a friend on her summer commutes. The son would usually crash in the back of the car during these drives so he wouldn't be visible as they drove down the road. She was probably pulled over 4-5 times that summer by police officers that summer for HOV violations but then was let go. Most officer just laughed about it but there was one who did get PO'd.
Point is that the best way to know whether there are the required number of people in the vehicle is to have an officer on site to check it out. Thermal imaging may not necessarily be able to distinguish between a baby in a bay seat and a pet in a carrier. Cameras aren't going to pick up everyone. Plus never underesimate the entrepenurial spirit that will probably result in "inflated heated passengers" for the BMW set.
Point is that the best way to know whether there are the required number of people in the vehicle is to have an officer on site to check it out. Thermal imaging may not necessarily be able to distinguish between a baby in a bay seat and a pet in a carrier. Cameras aren't going to pick up everyone. Plus never underesimate the entrepenurial spirit that will probably result in "inflated heated passengers" for the BMW set.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
KeepOnTruckin
()
Date: March 31, 2012 09:26PM
Bill.N. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Point is that the best way to know whether there
> are the required number of people in the vehicle
> is to have an officer on site to check it out.
> Thermal imaging may not necessarily be able to
> distinguish between a baby in a bay seat and a pet
> in a carrier. Cameras aren't going to pick up
> everyone. Plus never underesimate the
> entrepenurial spirit that will probably result in
> "inflated heated passengers" for the BMW set.
Or someone who has the heater on full blast, or someone with a heavily tinted windshield, or someone driving with a sun shade on their windshield, or when the heated seats are being operated, or people sitting in the far back seats of a minivan or limo, or many other ways people will think up
-------------------------------------------------------
> Point is that the best way to know whether there
> are the required number of people in the vehicle
> is to have an officer on site to check it out.
> Thermal imaging may not necessarily be able to
> distinguish between a baby in a bay seat and a pet
> in a carrier. Cameras aren't going to pick up
> everyone. Plus never underesimate the
> entrepenurial spirit that will probably result in
> "inflated heated passengers" for the BMW set.
Or someone who has the heater on full blast, or someone with a heavily tinted windshield, or someone driving with a sun shade on their windshield, or when the heated seats are being operated, or people sitting in the far back seats of a minivan or limo, or many other ways people will think up
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
fact checker
()
Date: July 10, 2012 07:49AM
Geoff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm finding it hard to believe a thermal imaging
> camera could reliably count the number of
> passengers in a car barreling down the highway.
> Does anyone have a link to show where these have
> been tested and deployed reliably?
Actually, thermal imaging cameras cannot see through the type of glass you'll find find in car windshields or windows. Thermal imagers detect heat, and only specially made glass can let this radiation pass. Near infrared could be used, but there are a host of problems, chiefly the difficulty in accurately counting small children and people laying down.
AUTOMATIC PASSENGER COUNTING IN THE HOV LANE
http://www.lrrb.org/pdf/200006.pdf
There are other methods (gamma, x-ray) used for scanning cargo containers, but they either need the vehicle to move very slowly, or expose people to high doses of radiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_scanning
Maybe in a decade or two they'll be able to reliably count passengers in a safe, efficient, and cost effective manner, but the technology just isn't there yet.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm finding it hard to believe a thermal imaging
> camera could reliably count the number of
> passengers in a car barreling down the highway.
> Does anyone have a link to show where these have
> been tested and deployed reliably?
Actually, thermal imaging cameras cannot see through the type of glass you'll find find in car windshields or windows. Thermal imagers detect heat, and only specially made glass can let this radiation pass. Near infrared could be used, but there are a host of problems, chiefly the difficulty in accurately counting small children and people laying down.
AUTOMATIC PASSENGER COUNTING IN THE HOV LANE
http://www.lrrb.org/pdf/200006.pdf
There are other methods (gamma, x-ray) used for scanning cargo containers, but they either need the vehicle to move very slowly, or expose people to high doses of radiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_scanning
Maybe in a decade or two they'll be able to reliably count passengers in a safe, efficient, and cost effective manner, but the technology just isn't there yet.
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Gordon Blvd
()
Date: July 10, 2012 07:52AM
OMG!! all this new techonology .........................to catch HOV cheats?
why not focus on something a little more important? I hear cancer is really nasty why not cure that before focusing on HOV? Sheesh.................
why not focus on something a little more important? I hear cancer is really nasty why not cure that before focusing on HOV? Sheesh.................
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
Get real!
()
Date: July 10, 2012 12:02PM
Gordon Blvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OMG!! all this new techonology
> .........................to catch HOV cheats?
>
>
> why not focus on something a little more
> important? I hear cancer is really nasty why not
> cure that before focusing on HOV?
> Sheesh.................
Right, because everyone in the entire world needs to focus on one specific thing at a time.
I'd ask you to let me know when the coordinated bathroom break is, but it doesn't matter anyways since we don't have anyone able to focus on running the waste treatment facilities. We all have to cure cancer today!
It'll be tough to do with the lights out, but we can't spare anyone to run the power plants. We all have to cure cancer today!
I wish I could go home tonight and see my wife, but that's not in the cards. Not only am I not able to leave, she won't be there anyways. We all have to cure cancer today!
Speaking of which, have you abandoned your job yet to join the fight against cancer? I'd send the police to enforce the global cancer-fighting requirement, but they're otherwise occupied. We all have to cure cancer today!
-------------------------------------------------------
> OMG!! all this new techonology
> .........................to catch HOV cheats?
>
>
> why not focus on something a little more
> important? I hear cancer is really nasty why not
> cure that before focusing on HOV?
> Sheesh.................
Right, because everyone in the entire world needs to focus on one specific thing at a time.
I'd ask you to let me know when the coordinated bathroom break is, but it doesn't matter anyways since we don't have anyone able to focus on running the waste treatment facilities. We all have to cure cancer today!
It'll be tough to do with the lights out, but we can't spare anyone to run the power plants. We all have to cure cancer today!
I wish I could go home tonight and see my wife, but that's not in the cards. Not only am I not able to leave, she won't be there anyways. We all have to cure cancer today!
Speaking of which, have you abandoned your job yet to join the fight against cancer? I'd send the police to enforce the global cancer-fighting requirement, but they're otherwise occupied. We all have to cure cancer today!
Re: 495 Express Lanes (Hot Lanes)
Posted by:
BEH
()
Date: July 10, 2012 12:10PM
The heck with curing cancer. I'm going to the whore house.